Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3968

1 Thursday, 4 March 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall ask Madam Registrar to

6 call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this is case number IT-01-47-T, Enver

8 Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I shall ask the

10 Prosecution to present their case.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, counsel.

12 For the Prosecution, Tecla Benjamin, Ekkehard Withopf, and Ruth Karper the

13 case manager.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf. I shall

15 now turn to the Defence. Appearances, please.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

17 behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, counsel, Alexis

18 Demirdjian, assistant, and Stefane Bourgon, co-counsel. Thank you.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

20 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Mr. Mulalic,

21 legal assistant.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber would

23 like to welcome all the people present in the courtroom. The Prosecution,

24 the Defence, all the members present in the courtroom, Madam Registrar,

25 the usher, as well as the security guards, as well as the interpreters.

Page 3969

1 Madam Registrar, of course, and thanks to the interpreters, we are

2 able to follow what is going on in this courtroom. We shall now hear the

3 witness, and we will have to move into closed session to begin with.

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10 [Open session]

11 WITNESS: WITNESS ZI

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Bourgon:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness ZI. I'm called Stefane

16 Bourgon. Mrs. Edina Residovic and Mr. Alexis Demirdjian we are here on

17 behalf of Mr. Hadzihasanovic. You provided your statement as evidence

18 pursuant to Article 92 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. I

19 shall now proceed with the cross-examination. As the Judge of the Chamber

20 has just explained to you. In other words, I shall ask you a few

21 questions pertaining to the contents of the said statement, as well as the

22 method you use to sketch those drawings which you have filed together with

23 your statement.

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6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please ask the witness

8 where this meeting was held, because you may reveal the identity of the

9 witness by so doing.

10 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I was just going to put a few

11 questions to the witness pertaining to the fact that he had made the

12 statement to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecution, and this

13 could not lead to us understanding what his identity is. So we shall move

14 into private session.

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Page 3987

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. According to what you have mentioned to the investigators of the

5 OTP you were in the position to take photos of all the houses that had

6 been destroyed in the period between 1993 and 1994. They were still in

7 the same state of destruction up to the period when the investigation

8 started in 2002; is that correct?

9 A. No, it's not. We did not take photos. In the statement, it says

10 that the investigator asked me to collect information and to make sketches

11 for myself of all the destroyed buildings; to be more precise, buildings

12 in ten villages, the names of which I can give you. Those are the

13 buildings which were destroyed in 1992 and in 1993. For each of these

14 villages, I was given the exactly precise period of time that was relevant

15 for that village.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. In the transcript,

17 the year is wrong. The witness mentioned 1992. Then he corrected himself

18 and he said 1993, 1994. In the transcript, in line 9, page 19, it says

19 only 1992, 1993.

20 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Thank you, Witness ZI. I was referring to the -- to another

22 paragraph of your statement, and this is the part referring to the

23 instructions that you received from the investigators of the ICTY. The

24 list of the villages where you were sent to collect information is in the

25 third paragraph of your statement. I would like to confirm with you what

Page 3988

1 were the instructions that you received? In other words, were you

2 supposed to investigate the events which took place in 1993 and 1994 or

3 were you supposed to investigate the destruction that took place in the

4 months that are precisely mentioned in the third paragraph of the

5 statement?

6 A. I was instructed to investigate very specific months, for Dusina,

7 January 1993 to mid-February of the same year; Miletici village, the month

8 was April 1993; Guca Gora, Maljine, Cukle, Donje Cukle, Gornje Cukle,

9 Ovnak, Brajkovici, Grahovcici, June 1993; Buhine Kuce settlement, the

10 relevant period was January 1994.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness. On the 6th of March, 2002, you knew that two

12 officers of the BiH army had been indicted. Were you aware of the counts

13 of the indictment? Were you aware of the crimes that were allegedly

14 committed in Central Bosnia?

15 A. Yes. I read the indictment and I was aware of most of the things

16 in it.

17 Q. So you are also -- you were also aware of the contents of the

18 indictment against General Hadzihasanovic and Alagic at that moment, as

19 well as against Mr. Kubura. The counts that I'm referring to is the

20 destruction of houses in the aforementioned villages. Is that correct?

21 A. I read the indictment. To be honest, I did not ponder on it. My

22 logic told me that the count of destruction should be contained within the

23 indictment.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness. Before we move to the attachments, I would

25 like to ask you some questions about the methodology that you applied in

Page 3989

1 order to draft the attachment that is attached to your statement.

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13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was just going to say the

14 same. As soon as you mention a name, there is a possibility that somebody

15 might be identified. Therefore, I'm going to ask Madam Registrar to

16 redact the name that has been mentioned, and maybe it will be better if we

17 go into private session, should you again be mentioning names.

18 Mr. Bourgon.

19 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence would

20 like to remain in open session. We don't think that the fact that we are

21 mentioning the name of a person that may have met with a number of other

22 persons, and if there is no other link between this witness and that

23 person, I don't see the reason for us to be in private session. This

24 person whom we have mentioned testified before this Tribunal without any

25 protective measures, and we don't see how the mere fact that the witness

Page 3990

1 spoke to this person can identify the witness.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, can we go into

3 private session, please.

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Page 4055

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. A while ago, during

3 the cross-examination, the issue of counts 5 and 6 of the indictment

4 pertaining to Dusina were mentioned. These are mentioned in the

5 indictment. The Prosecution stated that in its pre-trial brief, it had

6 dropped this charge. There are several alternatives in this case. The

7 one which complies with the Rules of Procedure and the Statute and the

8 spirit of the legal procedure is as follows: When an indictment is

9 amended, the procedure pursuant to Article 93 needs to be applied. This

10 can be very quick. A paragraph is drafted and then observations are

11 collected and we render a decision. But it is for the Prosecution to take

12 a decision on this. So the Prosecution decides to add, to amend, to

13 modify, to drop. The Trial Chamber, therefore, imparts to the Prosecution

14 that there is a procedure currently applied before this Tribunal, but

15 there is also another alternative, which is to take an oral statement.

16 The Defence submitted that an oral statement is insufficient. The Trial

17 Chamber therefore asks the Prosecution to give this matter some thought.

18 What does the Prosecution intend to do to settle the issue of Dusina?

19 In terms of legal practice and documents we have governing this

20 kind of issue, we have the indictment, on the one hand, and the pre-trial

21 brief, on the other. This is not an urgent matter, but in the meantime,

22 the Prosecution will inform us of its intentions, as the Prosecution here

23 is in control of this matter.

24 I apologise vis-a-vis the interpreters, to have overstepped my

25 time. We would like to thank the interpreters for their cooperation, and

Page 4056

1 I will convene all the parties present to come to the audience tomorrow

2 morning, which will resume tomorrow at 9.00.

3 I think Mr. Bourgon would like to take the floor.

4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes. Very briefly, I would like to

5 ask our learned colleague to disclose the photographs to us so that we can

6 prepare our case for tomorrow. This is a minor issue, but we would like

7 to impart our comments vis-a-vis the testimony of some witness by

8 videolink. I don't know if this issue is to be addressed today or whether

9 we should talk about this tomorrow.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you are brief, we can address

11 this today. We -- the Trial Chamber has been seized with this matter. If

12 you make your observations orally.

13 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] The Defence team of Mr. Kubura will

14 make observations in the name of the two accused people.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, you have the floor.

16 MR. WITHOPF: Also, the Prosecution is very much in favour to

17 discuss this issue now. I would, however, strongly suggest that first the

18 witness leaves the room. This is not an issue the witness is involved in

19 at all.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Madam Usher,

21 can you please take the witness out of the courtroom.

22 Sir, you are requested to come back tomorrow at 9.00.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf -- Mr. Dixon, you

25 have the floor.

Page 4057

1 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. I was going to address the

2 issue of the videolink evidence. However, I'm just conscious of the time.

3 I would suggest, Your Honours, that we should rather look at addressing

4 this issue before Your Honours tomorrow at the beginning of the hearing,

5 in order that sufficient time can be given to consider the matter.

6 Because we do have some objections for certain witnesses and we will have

7 to go through those in some detail. It could be done in written form,

8 Your Honour, but I think orally would be quicker and it could be resolved

9 tomorrow morning.

10 There's one other matter as well totally unrelated to this, but

11 perhaps my friend wishes to address Your Honours first.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session still.

13 MR. WITHOPF: In respect to the set of photocopies of the

14 photographs, since my learned colleague asked me to disclose the

15 photographs, I wish to mention for the record that these photographs have

16 been disclosed on the 10th of October, 2003. Defence are in possession of

17 the photographs. The ERN range is 01799933, 01799978, and the PT number

18 in the Rule 65 ter exhibit list is PT1309. However, in order to

19 facilitate the work of my learned colleagues, we are prepared to provide

20 them with two additional sets of hard copies.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Bourgon. You have the

22 floor. You already have them, I suppose.

23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes. I've mentioned already that I

24 looked at them on the video. We, however, would like to receive a hard

25 copy that we can hold in our hands and look from all sides.

Page 4058

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution is going to make

2 your life easier and they're going to give the entire bundle of documents.

3 And now, as for the videolink, the Defence would like to address this

4 issue tomorrow. It's 5 minutes to 2.00. I would like to thank everybody.

5 Before that, Mr. Dixon, you have the floor.

6 MR. DIXON: That in fact involves shortening the schedule, which

7 is the schedule tomorrow. Could we go into private session in order to do

8 that?

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We are in open session. We

10 are moving into private session, please.

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8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session, I would like to

10 adjourn for today. I'm inviting all the parties to come back tomorrow at

11 9.00.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.57 p.m.

13 to be reconvened on Friday, the 5th day of March

14 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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