1 Tuesday, 9 March 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, will you call the
6 case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Can
10 we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Your Honours, good morning, counsel,
12 for the Prosecution, Ekkehard Withopf, Daryl Mundis, and the case manager,
13 Ruth Karper.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And now the appearances for the
15 Defence, please.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. Good
17 morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina
18 Residovic, lead counsel, Stefane Bourgon, co-counsel, and Mirna Milanovic,
19 legal assistant. Thank you.
20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
21 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin
22 Mulalic, legal assistant.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber bids
24 good morning to everyone, the representatives of the Prosecution, Defence
25 counsel, the accused, and all the staff of this courtroom. The witness
1 envisaged for yesterday could not be freed of his obligations, and we will
2 continue his hearing today with the cross-examination. And after that, we
3 will also have two other witnesses who have been planned for today. I'm
4 going to ask the usher to be kind enough to bring our witness into the
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. We are
8 continuing today your testimony. You will have to answer questions from
9 the lawyers of the accused, as the examination-in-chief ended yesterday.
10 Should you have any difficulties or should you not feel well, you will let
11 me know and we will immediately interrupt the hearing to allow you time to
12 rest. I hope you are well for the time being.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Everything is fine. Thank
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I now call on the Defence and
16 give them the floor for the cross-examination.
17 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Good morning, Madam Judge, good
18 morning Your Honours, good morning Mr. President.
19 WITNESS: IVICA KEGELJ [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Bourgon:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kegelj. My name is Stefane
23 Bourgon, and together with my colleagues, Ms. Residovic and Ms. Milanovic,
24 we represent the Defence of General Hadzihasanovic. I only have a few
25 questions for you this morning, knowing that this testimony may be painful
1 for you.
2 I should like to confirm, Mr. Kegelj, that Dusina is indeed in the
3 Zenica municipality and that though your unit was not a member of the Jure
4 Francetic Brigade, it had its headquarters there, but your unit reported
5 to the HVO command in Busovaca. Is that right?
6 A. Yes, that's right. But Dusina is about 20 kilometres from Zenica,
7 and four to five kilometres from Busovaca, so that we were much closer to
8 Busovaca than to Zenica. Now, who determined this, I don't know why we
9 belonged to Busovaca and not Zenica. Probably because of the distance.
10 Twenty kilometres to Zenica and only four or five kilometres to Busovaca.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kegelj. Can you also confirm that before the
12 events in Dusina, the conflict broke out between the HVO and the BH army
13 in Busovaca?
14 A. Yes. A day or two prior to that. I don't know exactly, but the
15 conflict started in Busovaca two or three days earlier. We remained
16 quiet. We remained in the village. We had no orders. We stayed in the
17 village. We just guarded our own houses. We kept guard duty around our
18 houses, and that's all.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kegelj. Your commander at the time in the area of
20 Dusina was Franjo Rajic, whereas the HVO commander was Dragan Rados, the
21 commander at Brdo; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Kegelj, that on the 25th of January, 1993, the
24 HVO attacked the village of Merdani, and you could hear artillery fire as
25 far as Dusina?
1 A. I heard some shooting, but who attacked who, I don't know. I just
2 heard the shooting that day.
3 Q. That evening, the night between the 25th and the 26th of January,
4 you and other HVO soldiers slept in a Serb house situated in the centre of
5 the Croatian part of Dusina; is that right?
6 A. Yes, that's right. We were -- kept guard duty until midnight.
7 Then usually after midnight we would rest. Everything was peaceful around
8 the village, even though two or three days prior to that, many soldiers
9 had been noticed in the Muslim village, and in the lower part of Dusina
10 village, large groups of soldiers had been noticed. But Zvonko Rajic said
11 that everything had been arranged, that nothing would happen, and that is
12 how we were at rest, and after midnight we all fell asleep.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kegelj. And on the morning of the 26th of January,
14 when you surrendered to the forces of the BH army, it was at that moment
15 that you noticed that Blasko Bosnjak left before you and that he was
16 wounded; he came out before you and he was wounded?
17 A. Yes. I was awakened by the noise of shooting, and before that,
18 when we ran out of the house, Blasko Bosnjak was lying wounded on the
19 snow. Then he cried out: Flee from here. He said that he had been hit
20 by a sniper from the area of Dusina, from a hill known as Tuleg [phoen].
21 From that hill, in the Muslim part of the village, a sniper had hit him in
22 the leg. And there was this open, exposed area in front of the house, so
23 we quickly fled to the garage or the basement. At the same time we helped
24 him, we pulled him into the garage as well. We brought a blanket, wrapped
25 him in it, and that is where we remained.
1 Q. It was following those events, Mr. Kegelj, that you were allowed
2 to take a stretcher to transport him to the Muslim part of the village,
3 where there were some medical personnel to treat him; is that right?
4 A. When we surrendered, they searched us. We handed over our
5 weapons. And then we were ordered, and there were four of us, plus Blasko
6 Bosnjak, the wounded man as the fifth. We said that we had a wounded man.
7 They brought a stretcher for us and they ordered two of us, as I and
8 Mladen Kegelj were up front, we were ordered to carry him. And they
9 ordered us to run as fast as we could. So that they beat us all the time.
10 And I received quite a number of blows, because this was a distance of
11 some 700 to 800 metres that we had to cover at a running pace and carrying
12 him at the same time.
13 We carried him to the centre of the village, where there was the
14 medical staff. We left him there. Other soldiers carried him inside, and
15 I didn't see anything after that.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kegelj. You also know that when you surrendered,
17 Drazen Kegelj and Franjo Rajic fled in another direction and that the two
18 were killed that day during the conflict. Can you confirm that?
19 A. As we ran out of the house, I can't remember. Some stayed there.
20 Others, Franjo Rajic, said that he was going to help the civilians. And I
21 don't know anything about that. He left us, and I don't know how he was
22 killed. What happened after that, I don't know, as far as he's concerned.
23 Q. Mr. Kegelj, when you surrendered, you didn't know how the conflict
24 in Dusina had started; is that right?
25 A. I woke up, and when I ran outside, I saw strong forces already
1 entering the upper part of the Croatian village. From the other side,
2 from Hrastovo Kosa, I also saw troops approaching, only they were at some
3 distance. Below our village, there was a grouping of forces also that
4 were not approaching but were there. From the eastern side, from the
5 direction of the village of Dusina, I just saw troops in the village. I
6 saw soldiers moving around the village. So that from the direction of the
7 north, I did see strong forces attacking, who were chasing out civilians,
8 civilians were moving towards Stipe Kegelj's house already.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kegelj. When, a little later, you came to the
10 crossroads, you met a man who you described as Edin Hakanovic. You know
11 that Mr. Edin Hakanovic, before the conflict, was a civilian policeman in
12 Visoko; is that right?
13 A. Yes. I saw Edin Hakanovic after we had handed over the wounded
14 man. We were mistreated there. We were forced to be barefoot on the snow
15 for 15 to 20 minutes, maybe up to half an hour. Then we were taken back
16 to the area between the Muslim and Croatian part of the village. In
17 Potok, I saw Edin Hakanovic, when we joined the civilians, the four of us
18 and the civilians who had also been brought there to the centre. I saw
19 Edin Hakanovic then, and he said: No harm will come to you. I took
20 over -- I took charge of this operation voluntarily, and nothing can
21 happen to you. I'm responsible for everything.
22 Just then, someone said to my aunt that her 19-year-old son had
23 been killed in front of my house. She cried out and fainted, and then the
24 soldiers -- I heard bursts of fire to keep us quiet, to prevent us from
25 shouting and panicking. Then Edin Hakanovic said what he said, and he
1 escorted us, together with a group of soldiers, as far as the village of
2 Brdo, where we were used as a human shield, and he said that we were going
3 there for the other HVO soldiers to surrender. So he went with us to the
4 village of Brdo and then he brought us back to Stipe's house. After that,
5 I didn't see Edin Hakanovic again.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kegelj. Are you aware, Mr. Kegelj, that there's a
7 trial in Zenica against Edin Hakanovic, who is charged for events linked
8 to the events in Dusina?
9 A. I didn't know that. As I'm living in the USA, in America, I'm not
10 aware of what is going on there.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kegelj. Yesterday you testified at length about
12 the experiences you had. I certainly have no intention of asking you to
13 repeat the painful experiences of your life, but nevertheless, when those
14 events were over, this person Geler threatened you and said if you spoke
15 to anyone, you would be given special treatment; is that right?
16 A. Yes, that's right. Probably as I survived, Geler ordered me not
17 to tell anyone about it, because otherwise he will settle accounts with me
18 in a special manner, should I tell anyone or should anyone notice on me
19 the effects of what had happened.
20 Q. Mr. Kegelj, it is following those events that you were taken to
21 the Muslim part of the village, and then another group of soldiers took
22 you again to the school in Lasva. And there, can you confirm that
23 soldiers were put in one room and the civilians in another room? Is that
25 A. Yes, that's right. When I arrived there, HVO soldiers of Lasva,
1 Visnjica -- Lasva and Visnjica were already in one classroom. I was
2 immediately put there with them. There were three of us: Myself, Milenko
3 Rajic, Franjo Rajic. And they told Franjo Rajic then, as he was a
4 civilian, he was moved to the other classroom where the civilians were,
5 next to ours.
6 Q. Is it possible, Mr. Kegelj, that you're really talking about
7 Franjo Kristo, not Franjo Rajic, that you've confused the names?
8 A. Yes. Yes. I mixed the two up. I confused the names. It's
9 Franjo Kristo. That's right. Franjo Rajic was killed on the 26th, in the
10 morning. I said, I, Milenko Rajic, and Franjo Kristo. That is quite
11 right. That is correct. I was mistaken.
12 Q. And when you were in the school, you were allowed to see your wife
13 and your two children and the only person you spoke to about the
14 unfortunate events that happened in Dusina was your wife; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's correct. My wife wanted to visit me. I didn't know
16 what had happened to my wife and my children. I was taken to the
17 classroom first, and maybe about 15 minutes or half an hour later,
18 civilians were also taken to Lasva, to the school. At that point, my wife
19 asked permission to visit me. The guards who were guarding us allowed me
20 to go out among the civilians and to spend a few minutes with my wife. I
21 was with her for 10 to 15 minutes. During that time, as I didn't know
22 what was going to happen to me, and as I could no longer see Geler there,
23 I briefly told my wife about what had happened and told her that perhaps
24 if I died, she'd be able to tell people what had happened. I wanted her
25 to know what had happened to the other people at the time.
1 Q. And Mr. Kegelj, yesterday, in response to a question from my
2 learned colleague, you said that all the soldiers, about 1.00 in the
3 morning, were transported to the KP Dom. Is it correct that you spent
4 three days in the KP Dom, in the penal and correctional facility, before
5 you were exchanged? I apologise, Mr. Kegelj. Perhaps there's a
6 translation error. I can see that in the transcript, it says three days.
7 My question was 13 days. Is it correct that after you had spent 13 days
8 in the KP Dom, you were exchanged, and you then went to Busovaca?
9 A. Yes, that's correct. I spent 13 days in the KP Dom, and on the
10 13th day we were exchanged. After about a week in the KP Dom in Zenica,
11 we were visited by UNPROFOR. They took down our details. They registered
12 us as prisoners. We were then all given three possibilities: To go to
13 Zenica, to go to Vitez, or to Busovaca. Those were the three
14 possibilities I had. I chose to go to Busovaca. However, they all chose
15 to go either to Vitez or Busovaca. No one went to Zenica.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kegelj. And perhaps my last question. Following
17 the events in Busovaca you didn't speak to anyone about the events until
18 you met representatives of the OTP in February 2000; is that correct?
19 A. No, that's not correct. As soon as I got to Busovaca, some HVO
20 representatives -- in fact, I don't know who they were. They were in
21 Busovaca, though, and I then gave statements to two persons in Busovaca.
22 That was two or three months afterwards. That's when I gave statements.
23 And then I gave a statement two years ago, or two and a half years ago.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kegelj. I have the statement. We have the
25 statement that you gave in Busovaca. My question was: Between Busovaca
1 and the time when you met investigators from the OTP. That's the period
2 that I was referring to. Thank you for answering my questions,
3 Mr. Kegelj.
4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. The
7 other Defence team told me yesterday that they didn't have any questions
8 for the witness. I'm turning to the Prosecution. No questions,
9 Mr. Dixon?
10 MR. DIXON: No questions, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's correct. Thank you.
12 Mr. Mundis.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution just has
14 one or perhaps two questions that arise from the cross-examination.
15 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:
16 Q. Mr. Kegelj, in response to a question put to you by my learned
17 colleague, you responded that when you were in the Lasva school, you were
18 allowed to see your wife because, as you put it: I could no longer see
19 Geler there." Did you see this person Geler at the Lasva elementary
20 school during the period that you were there on the 26th of January, 1993?
21 A. No, I didn't see him there. The last time I saw him was when we
22 took the dead men to the cellar. We returned to Stipe Kegelj's house.
23 And when we had been taken out of Stipe Kegelj's house, once we'd been
24 taken to the school -- well, the last time was in Stipe Kegelj's house.
25 That's the last time I saw him. I never saw Geler after that.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kegelj.
2 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions,
3 Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness, for your
5 testimony that you gave yesterday and that you have given today. We know
6 that the events that you have spoken about have reminded you of unpleasant
7 experiences. The Defence took care to ask you questions about these
8 events, questions that were of a general nature. You have contributed to
9 determining the truth. We would like to thank you and we wish you a good
10 trip home to the USA.
11 I'm now going to ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm turning to the Prosecution
15 for information about the witness. Mr. Withopf, you may proceed.
16 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, there are two further
17 witnesses scheduled for today, namely, Mr. Jozo Erenda and Mr. Alija
18 Podrug. Jozo Erenda will be available by 10.00. For this reason, I am
19 not sure whether the witness is already available now or whether he is on
20 his way. If I may please ask the usher to check this.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have any protective measures
22 been requested or not?
23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, none of the two
24 witnesses will request protective measures.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. The
1 question, then, is: Is the witness here?
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The registrar has told me that
4 he will be here in a quarter of an hour. So we'll have a 15-minute break
5 and we will resume as soon as the witness arrives.
6 --- Break taken at 9.31 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 9.49 a.m.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume the hearing.
9 Could the usher go and call the witness into the courtroom.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, Witness.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good day.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would just like to check that
14 you are receiving the interpretation of what I'm saying into your own
15 language. Can you hear what I'm saying?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you have been called here as
18 a witness for the Prosecution, you must make a solemn declaration. Before
19 you do so, you should tell me your first and last names.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jozo Erenda.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your date of birth?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 16th of September, 1953.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where were you born?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Cukle, Travnik municipality.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where do you currently reside?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Cukle, Travnik.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current profession?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm currently unemployed.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your usual
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked as a tradesman and as an
7 official, as a clerk.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In 1993, what was
9 your profession? That's over ten years ago. What did you do at the time?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was an accountant in the Putnik
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified
13 before a Tribunal or is this the first time that you have come to testify?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not my first time.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where have you already
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1977, in Zenica.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You will now make a
19 solemn declaration. I'm going to ask the usher to show you the text,
20 which you should read out.
21 WITNESS: JOZO ERENDA
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Before the Prosecution commences its examination-in-chief, I would
3 like to provide you some information to ensure the proceedings run
5 You will have to first have to answer questions put to you by the
6 Prosecution. They are sitting to your right. They will be asking you
7 some questions that you will have to answer. To the extent that this is
8 possible, try to provide precise answers to the questions.
9 Once the examination-in-chief has been concluded, Defence counsel,
10 who are to your left, will also ask you a series of questions. Depending
11 on the type of questions put to you, try to answer the questions
12 correctly. If you don't understand a question, ask the person putting it
13 to you to rephrase it. If you encounter any difficulties, let us know.
14 In addition, the three Judges sitting before you may ask you
15 questions. At any time they think it is necessary, and they will do this
16 in the light of the questions put to you by either of the parties. If the
17 Judges feel that it's necessary to clarify anything, the Judges will ask
18 you questions to do so. As you have also sworn to tell the truth, you
19 should not lie, because if you give false testimony, you could be
20 prosecuted, and the penalties, according to our Rules, could be either a
21 fine or a prison sentence of up to seven years.
22 In addition, if, when answering a question, you provide
23 information that could be used to subsequently prosecute you, if you
24 provide information that might incriminate you, in such a case, you can
25 refuse to answer the question. But the Trial Chamber can force you to
1 answer the question. However, if that is the case, the answer you provide
2 can't be used against you.
3 I have just provided you with an outline of the way in which these
4 proceedings will be conducted. Without wasting any more time, I'll now
5 turn to the Prosecution, who may proceed.
6 I think Ms. Benjamin will be conducting the examination-in-chief.
7 Good day, Mrs. Ben.
8 MS. BENJAMIN: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
9 Honours. First I wish to apologise to the Trial Chamber and to my
10 colleagues and to the witness for the little misunderstanding that took
11 place just now.
12 Examined by Ms. Benjamin:
13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Erenda.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. You indicated -- you have indicated to the Trial Chamber where you
16 were born and the municipality in which Cukle was situated. Could you
17 tell the Trial Chamber the ethnic composition of Cukle, please, at the
19 A. The ratio was 65:35. The Croats were in the majority, but this
20 data is not quite precise.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, you indicated to us that you appeared in a trial
22 in 1977. Could you tell the Trial Chamber in what capacity you appeared
23 in this trial.
24 A. I was the accused.
25 Q. And were you convicted?
1 A. Yes. I was given a three-year sentence.
2 Q. Did you serve your sentence?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Since then, and up until the present, have you had any other
5 problems with the law?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you state for the Trial Chamber, please, if you
8 did national service, compulsory national service, with the JNA, and for
9 how long, please.
10 A. I did my military service in the JNA, from the 27th of October,
11 1972 until the 25th of January, 1974, in Zabok, in the former Yugoslavia.
12 Q. And after your service with the JNA, did there come a time when
13 you would have joined any other army or any other unit, military body?
14 A. Yes. Having been expelled from the village of Cukle when the
15 conflict was ongoing, I joined the HVO Vitez Brigade in Stara Bila, it's
16 part of the municipality of Vitez.
17 Q. In respect to your observations, could you tell us, in relation to
18 around April of 1993, if you observed that there was a change in the
19 village of Cukle.
20 A. Yes. Changes could be noticed in the village of Cukle and the
21 village of Pode. Between these two villages there are Muslim inhabitants,
22 on a hill between those two villages; BH army troops went there. That's
23 the sort of flag they were carrying. They took up position there, but
24 they didn't relocate at that time in Travnik in 1993. There was some
25 tension. But after the May holidays, when there was a massacre in
1 Mulatici [phoen] village, they related to inhabitants from Cukle and then
2 there was some tension. So in the evening we placed the inhabitants in
3 three houses and we stood village guard. But during the day, we would
4 till the land, because that was the period for farming.
5 Q. You have said that a flag was placed. Would you be able to tell
6 us if you were able to recognise this flag and to whom it belonged?
7 A. Yes. I recognised the flag, because, as the crow flies, it may be
8 some 200 metres from my house. It was on a large pole and it was a big
9 flag, and I recognised it, yes.
10 Q. And if you were shown this flag today or a picture of this flag,
11 would you be able to recognise it?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. BENJAMIN: Mr. President, with the Trial Chamber's permission,
14 may the witness be shown Exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit P4, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It is number 12.
16 MS. BENJAMIN:
17 Q. And according to you, number 12 would be the flag that you saw
18 placed in the village of Cukle around April?
19 A. Yes, yes. Around the 18th or the 20th. I can't be more precise
20 about the date.
21 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President. And for the benefit of
22 the Trial Chamber, could you tell us, if you are aware, by whom was this
23 flag placed?
24 A. I don't know. I don't know the person individually, but I know
25 that there were Muslims in that area and with that flag.
1 Q. Much obliged. Now, Mr. Erenda, could you relate to the Trial
2 Chamber your experience on the 8th of June, 1993, at the commencement of
3 the conflict, please.
4 A. In the morning, on the 8th of June, about 4.30 a.m., the village
5 of Cukle was attacked. The hamlet of Mrkonje, and behind that hamlet are
6 Muslim settlements, Vode [phoen] Mehurici, and Vranici. House started to
7 be set on fire and we rounded up the population and started withdrawing.
8 They were shooting. Houses were set on fire. And we withdrew with the
9 population. During the process, people were wounded and there were people
10 sick. We went towards Ovnak, Grahovcici, and Cehine Kuce, and we stayed
11 there until about 2100 and 2200 hours and then we continued on our way to
12 Nova Bila.
13 Q. Mr. Erenda, you have indicated to the Trial Chamber that they were
14 shooting, houses were burning. Could you explain for us whom you mean
15 when you say "they."
16 A. Yes. Who were burning? Is that what you're asking?
17 Q. Yes. Who was doing the burning? Who was doing the shooting?
18 A. That army. There were a lot of them, in fact. One could hear a
19 lot of noise, a lot of shooting and cries: "Allah U Ekber" and "Tek bir."
20 So it was the Muslim army, of course.
21 Q. Now, could you tell us, if you can, what was the ethnic background
22 of the owners of these houses that you saw burning?
23 A. It was the Croat houses that were burning.
24 Q. And you told us that for some 22 hours, you travelled from Cukle
25 and finally to Nova Bila. Did you remain in Nova Bila for the duration of
1 the war?
2 A. Nova Bila and Stara Bila are close by. Some left Nova Bila and
3 went to Vitez, Busovaca, and Novi Travnik, but I remained in Stara Bila,
4 which is right next to Nova Bila, and I stayed there until I returned to
6 Q. Were you able to go back to your house in Cukle?
7 A. Yes. I returned in 2001, in the month of May. I went to someone
8 else's house and I tilled the land and I was given some building material.
9 So I built a house and moved into it last year, on the 25th of July.
10 Q. But after the conflict, your house, was it standing when you went
11 back to Cukle?
12 A. No. It had been totally destroyed.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Erenda.
14 MS. BENJAMIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, this concludes the
15 examination-in-chief of this witness.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. President, please.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I call on the Defence to start
18 their cross-examination.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Erenda. My name is Edina
22 Residovic. I am Defence counsel for General Hadzihasanovic. Will you be
23 kind enough to answer some questions put by me, as you have done in
24 answering questions by my friend from the Prosecution.
25 You said that you were born and that you grew up in the village of
1 Cukle, which is within Travnik municipality?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The village of Cukle is divided into Gornje and Donje Cukle; is
4 that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The population of the whole village of Cukle was mixed, both
7 Croats and Muslims lived there; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. However, most Muslims lived in Gornje Cukle. The Muslim houses
10 were actually in the middle, whereas Croat houses were around Gornje
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Around the village of Cukle, there were other Croat villages,
14 Ovnak, Susanj, Grahovcici, and Novo Selo; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. To explain better the position of your village for the benefit of
17 Their Honours in particular, is it true that Gornje Cukle is about two to
18 three kilometres from Ovnak, four to five kilometres from Grahovcici,
19 about seven kilometres from Guca Gora, Maljine, and Mehurici? Roughly,
20 would that roughly be the distances between your village and these other
22 A. Guca Gora is further away, quite a bit further away.
23 Q. Can you tell us what the distance is?
24 A. About ten kilometres or so.
25 Q. And Mehurici and Maljine are still further away, by another two
1 kilometres; is that right, from Guca Gora?
2 A. In relation to Cukle, yes.
3 Q. Very well. Thank you. Is it true, Mr. Erenda, that in 1993 you
4 were aware of the fact that Bosnia-Herzegovina had become an
5 internationally recognised state?
6 A. Yes. We had voted for a unified, indivisible country, both Croats
7 and Muslims.
8 Q. You also knew that it was a member of the UN at the time?
9 A. I really don't know much about politics, but perhaps that is
11 Q. You also knew that the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was the
12 legitimate armed force of the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that
14 A. The army?
15 Q. Yes. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time was the
16 legitimate armed force of the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina. You knew
17 that; isn't that so?
18 A. Well, let it be so.
19 Q. You are also aware that to go from Zenica to Travnik, you had to
20 go through the pass Ovnak or Novo Selo?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You also knew that in the spring, especially as of April 1993, at
23 Ovnak, the HVO had its checkpoint, and fortified [Realtime transcript read
24 in error "45"] lines from Ovnak towards Grahovcici; is that right?
25 A. I don't remember, because we didn't really leave Cukle much. We
1 didn't leave the village much, and we had very little contact with anyone.
2 Q. I apologise. There seems to be something in the transcript,
3 probably due to an error in the translation. It says 45 lines, and I
4 said: In April or May, there were fortified lines between Ovnak and
5 Grahovcici. And the witness said that he's not well aware of that because
6 he didn't leave Cukle. So it's an error in the interpretation. Thank
7 you. I had to draw your attention to the error in the transcript.
8 You also know that the HVO, in April 1993, proclaimed a general
9 mobilisation and mobilised all able-bodied men in your area; is that
11 A. Everyone wasn't mobilised.
12 Q. You also know that there were sporadic clashes at the checkpoint
13 at Ovnak because HVO members who manned this checkpoint would stop members
14 of the army who were going to the front lines against the Serbs. Are you
15 aware of that?
16 A. No, I'm not.
17 Q. Do you know that in Grahovcici, a part of the Frankopan Brigade
18 was stationed and that those units were joined by a significant number of
19 soldiers from the Jure Francetic Brigade. When that brigade was disarmed
20 in Zenica in the second half of April? Are you aware of that?
21 A. Partially, yes.
22 Q. In answer to a question from my learned friend, you recognised the
23 symbol under 12. It was the regular army of the Army of Bosnia and
24 Herzegovina; isn't that so?
25 A. Yes.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The regular flag. Interpreter's correction.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Is it true that as of April the HVO ceased going to the front
4 lines against the Serbs, but rather, men started holding guard duty around
5 their villages; is that right?
6 A. I don't know about any HVO units, but we in Cukle did keep guard
7 duty in the village.
8 Q. You also dug trenches facing the Muslim villages; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. As you said in answer to questions from my learned friend, Croats
11 and Muslims in the village of Cukle were not in conflict right up until
12 the end of May 1993; is that right?
13 A. In Cukle, there were no tensions between Croats and Muslims.
14 Q. Answering a question from the Prosecution, you said that the
15 tension started around the 1st of May, after you had heard that five men
16 had been killed in Miletici; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. However, prior to that, you heard of the massacre in the village
19 of Ahmici, where more than a hundred inhabitants of that village had been
20 killed, and that event created certain fears among the Croats, fears of
21 revenge; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. However, your neighbours, Muslims, those belonging to the Army of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina as well, did not demonstrate any wish to take their
25 revenge on their neighbours in the village of Cukle?
1 A. There were no problems at all.
2 Q. Can you tell me, please: How far from Cukle is Postinje and
4 A. There is no Mrkonje.
5 Q. And Postinje?
6 A. Postinje, yes.
7 Q. How far is it from Cukle? A moment ago we gave the distances to
8 Maljine, et cetera.
9 A. Postinje is closer than Guca Gora by about three kilometres. It
10 is on the other side of the Bila River.
11 Q. And Mrkonje?
12 A. Mrkonje is a component part of Cukle.
13 Q. Thank you. That was my mistake in mentioning Mokrinje [phoen]
14 instead of this area of Cukle. You said that you were keeping guard duty
15 in the village on the 8th of June.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When you heard the shooting, you didn't really know who was doing
18 the shooting, nor could you see just then any insignia on the units who
19 were shooting around the village then?
20 A. I didn't see insignia, nor did I recognise any faces.
21 Q. About an hour later, as you said, together with other members of
22 the HVO, you started withdrawing towards Nova Bila, but you first went
23 towards Ovnak and Grahovcici; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You went in that direction because you knew that HVO forces there
1 were stronger and that they were quite well dug in?
2 A. We had no choice. We couldn't go to Han Bila because that area is
3 inhabited by Muslims as well. So this was the only route that could lead
4 to some sort of salvation.
5 Q. It was only when you arrived in Grahovcici where HVO members and
6 civilians from other villages were gathering, it was only then that you
7 were able to see at the front lines around Gornje Cukle that there was
8 smoke, which meant that some houses had been set on fire in the course of
9 the fighting; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. However, at the time, you didn't know how these houses had been
12 set on fire and you didn't know who had done that?
13 A. No, I didn't know that.
14 Q. In Gornje Cukle, the first time you returned there was in 1996; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. It was only then that you could see the extent to which the houses
18 in Cukle had been damaged; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And on that occasion, you also didn't know who had set fire to
21 certain houses in Cukle. You did not know how, and under what
22 circumstances, and you didn't know who had looted these houses?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, some inhabitants of Cukle returning to their village after
25 repairs had been carried out on the houses?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Relations with the neighbours are normal?
3 A. Yes. The Muslims built my house. I was provided with some
4 material and then I paid the workers.
5 Q. Neighbours helping each other to return to a normal sort of life?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Erenda. I have no further questions.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I don't think that
10 the other Defence team has any questions. The Trial Chamber would like to
11 ask you a minor question following the answer you have just provided.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1996 you returned to your
14 village and you saw that your house had been burnt down. Had the house
15 been completely destroyed? What could you actually see?
16 A. My house had been mined. It had been completely destroyed, so I
17 had to use a bulldozer to clear the area. It had been blown up.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I have understood you
19 correctly, you said that your house had been destroyed, a bomb had been
20 planted, it exploded, and it destroyed the house. So your house was
21 destroyed as a result of the explosive device that had been planted there?
22 A. When we were withdrawing, I noticed that it was on fire. But when
23 I returned there -- well, it had been destroyed. Its foundations. I
24 assume that an explosive device had been planted there, because I doubt
25 that if it had only been set on fire, the damage wouldn't have been that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when you had the house
3 rebuilt and you used a bulldozer to do this, there was no property
4 remaining in the house, a fridge, a television, a radio? Everything had
5 been taken, or did you find any of your property there?
6 A. Some things had been taken away. I found the bath there and a few
7 other items, but not many.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Does the Prosecution
9 have any additional questions for the witness?
10 MS. BENJAMIN: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no
11 re-examination for this witness.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, this
13 concludes your examination. You have answered the questions put to you by
14 the Prosecution and by the Defence. We thank you for having contributed
15 to determining what happened. Thank you, and now I will ask the usher to
16 escort you out of the courtroom. We wish you a good trip home.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm now turning to the
20 Prosecution to ask them about the third witness. Mr. Withopf, what can
21 you tell us about the third witness?
22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the third witness is
23 available. I may, however, suggest to take the regular break now, which
24 would allow my colleague, Mr. Chester Stamp, to come down and to commence
25 with the witness after the break. It can be anticipated that the third
1 witness can be completed today.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As we had a
3 15-minute break a minute ago, we'll have a 20- to 25-minute break now.
4 We'll resume at 10 to 11.00 or 5 to 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume. The Trial
8 Chamber would like to greet Mr. Stamp.
9 Could the usher bring our witness into the courtroom.
10 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, could I ask, before the usher does
11 that --
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 MR. DIXON: There's one matter we wish to address Your Honours
14 about, the scope of the testimony of this witness. And we thought it
15 would be more efficient to do it before the witness comes into the Court,
16 so that his testimony isn't potentially interrupted and there are long
17 discussions with the witness present in Court.
18 We are concerned about a certain part of the testimony of this
19 witness. He addresses many topics in his statement. I don't know if Your
20 Honours have a copy of his statement to hand. But one of the main topics
21 of his testimony is his arrest and detention in various detention
22 facilities, including the Music School. Your Honour may be aware, but
23 this witness is not a person of Bosnian Croat or Bosnian Serb extraction.
24 He is a Bosniak, in particular, a Bosnian Muslim, who was associated in
25 the past with the Bosnian army. Our concern is that in the indictment,
1 nowhere is it alleged that the accused are responsible under Article 7(3)
2 for the alleged detention of Bosniak citizens. The indictment simply
3 alleges, in paragraphs 41 and 42, that the persons imprisoned and detained
4 were Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs. There's no allegation that any
5 Bosnian Muslims were detained and that the accused are charged with their
7 In addition, Your Honour, in the pre-trial brief, at paragraphs 81
8 to 84, in connection with -- this is the Music School, one of the alleged
9 detention facilities, the Prosecution again states that the accused were
10 on notice that Croat and Serbs prisoners were held at the Music School.
11 That's paragraph 81 in particular, Your Honours.
12 The Prosecution may well respond that they are calling this
13 witness in order to show the kinds of activities at these detention
14 facilities or the pattern of alleged violence at these facilities. In our
15 submission, it would be prejudicial to allow the witness to testify about
16 such matters, firstly because the Prosecution is able to and has already
17 led evidence with regard to the detention of Bosnian Croat and Bosnian
18 Serb persons at, in particular, the Music School. And in our submission,
19 it would be prejudicial to use this kind of evidence as a supplement to
20 the evidence that has already been heard by Your Honours.
21 In addition to that, Your Honours, the witness cannot, looking at
22 his statement, it may be that there's more beyond his statement, but he
23 cannot testify about matters relating to the treatment of Bosnian Croat
24 and Bosnian Serb persons at the Music School.
25 There's also potentially a difficult legal matter involved,
1 Your Honour, in that Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions arguably
2 only applies to persons who are on different sides of the conflict, that
3 the victim and the perpetrator are linked to different sides, but might
4 not apply in situations where you are looking at the armed forces dealing
5 with their own persons. And it's another factor to be taken into account
6 to show why this is a separate case to those that we have already heard.
7 It's for all of those reasons, Your Honour, that we wish to
8 request Your Honours to limit the scope of the testimony of this witness
9 to those topics which do not concern his arrest and detention, as this is
10 a matter not charged in the indictment, and, in our submission, although
11 Your Honours are able to hear evidence and exclude it later, our request
12 is that it is excluded now, because it would be prejudicial for
13 Your Honours to hear such evidence and for the public to hear such
14 evidence when, in fact, this is evidence that cannot be used against our
15 clients in proving the charges in the indictment. And it's for those
16 reasons that we wish to try and, before the witness testifies, constrain
17 the limits of his testimony.
18 I'm grateful, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Dixon. We've taken
20 note of your comments. I'm going to let the Prosecution address the issue
21 now. But to summarise what you have said: You pointed out that the
22 witness was detained in the detention facility, but that he did not belong
23 to the category of victims referred to in the indictment. In -- the
24 indictment mentions victims of Serb or Croat ethnicity, whereas in this
25 case, the witness is a Bosniak.
1 You have also pointed out that, given that this witness was not a
2 victim, he can't be included within the scope. Scope of the questions has
3 to be limited. That is what you have claimed. The Prosecution will
4 inform us of its position. As you know, there are a number of different
5 types of witnesses. We have expert witnesses, we have victims, and then
6 we have simple, ordinary witnesses. He could be classified as a witness
7 who should not be considered as a victim, in terms of the indictment, and
8 his testimony will be testimony as a -- such as the testimony given by a
9 guard of a detention facility, an international monitor, et cetera. But I
10 would appreciate it if the observation [as interpreted] could state its
11 position with regard to this matter.
12 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. May it please you. It
13 is -- my friend's submission is something in the nature of a very
14 interesting pre-emptive strike, which is, I understand, a doctrine in
15 international law which is being postulated very vigorously from some
16 quarters. However, even within the submission, I think it contains the
17 seeds of the answer. He said I think that we may refer to it as evidence
18 of a pattern of conduct, and it is evidence of a pattern of conduct, which
19 can be given not only by victims referred to in the indictment, but
20 anybody who suffered the pattern of conduct that has been charged. And I
21 think the Rules of Procedure and Evidence makes specific reference, the
22 receipt of that type of evidence, in Rule 93, where it permits a Court to
23 receive, in the interests of justice, evidence of a pattern.
24 Secondly, the witness and the Court is entitled to hear what the
25 witness has to say about who were the persons who were in charge of the
1 Music School involved in beatings. It is relevant to the matters which
2 the Court will have to adjudicate upon. And again, within the submission
3 my friend has sown the seeds of the answer to his own submission, and that
4 is, these are matters which are relevant and the Court, at the end of the
5 case, at the end of the day, is entitled to give it whatever weight it
6 can. It really ought to hear the evidence before it determines what the
7 probative value is.
8 So notwithstanding that the indictment does not refer to the cruel
9 treatment of Croat by Croat -- sorry - of Bosnian by Bosnian, a Bosnian
10 might well have been in a position to observe events which are relevant to
11 the indictment. This Bosnian clearly was in a position to observe matters
12 which are relevant to the indictment and clearly, it is my submission,
13 respectfully, ought to be heard by the Court. And in due course, at the
14 proper time, the Court ought to give it whatever weight the Court thinks
15 that it deserves.
16 Those are my submissions. May it please you, Mr. President.
17 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, if I may, a short reply. I'm not asking
18 that the witness not be heard, but simply that he is not permitted to
19 testify about what happened to him, because he may not be a person
20 protected by the law in that situation. But more importantly, what
21 happened to him is not charged in the indictment. He can give evidence
22 about what he observed from his statement, there's not much that he
23 observed beyond what happened to him, but he can give that evidence. My
24 only request is that he should not be entitled, because this could be
25 prejudicial to the accused, to talk about what occurred to his own
1 personal -- in his own personal situation in the Music School and that
2 that evidence, although the Prosecution is seeking to assert that it can
3 prove a pattern, in my submission, it can't prove a pattern in relation to
4 what happened to Bosnian Serb and Bosnian Croat persons there, because
5 he's in a separate category. So it can't be used as probative evidence to
6 support such a pattern, and therefore, is irrelevant, worthless to
7 Your Honour's consideration of the facts in this case, and in the
8 interests of justice and the saving of time as well, the Prosecution could
9 be instructed not to ask questions about what happened to the witness
10 himself in the Music School. That is the request that I'm making. Thank
11 you, Your Honours.
12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence of
13 General Hadzihasanovic simply wishes to support the motion submitted by
14 Defence counsel for the accused Kubura regarding Rule 93 of the Rules of
15 Procedure, regarding evidence of consistent pattern of conduct. So this
16 is Rule 93 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. It is stated there
17 that evidence of a consistent pattern of conduct relevant to serious
18 violations of international humanitarian law under the Statute may be
19 admissible in the interests of justice. We support the motion made by
20 Defence counsel for the accused Kubura to the extent that the facts
21 related to what happened to the witness himself do not come under the
22 scope of Rule 93, and therefore, we support the motion submitted, also
23 relying on Article 3 of the Geneva Convention, that a victim has to be a
24 person on the other side of the conflict.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Chamber will
1 deliberate on this matter. But before we withdraw to deliberate, there
2 are two points that the Chamber would like to learn from the Prosecution.
3 First, the question of Rule 93 and the consistent pattern of
4 conduct. The Chamber would like to know whether this testimony is
5 designed to establish a consistent pattern of conduct. Because if that is
6 the case, then Rule 93(B) refers to Rule 66, and that Rule says that in
7 that case, the Defence needs to be given the evidence and informed of what
8 the Prosecution is relying on to prove this consistent pattern of conduct.
9 And clearly, that procedure has not been observed.
10 A second point: Does the Prosecution wish to ask the witness
11 questions about what he himself experienced, that is, his arrest and
12 conditions of detention and bad treatment? The Defence is saying that
13 that is not covered by the indictment. Or does the Prosecution simply
14 wish to ask the witness about what he saw and what he could say about what
15 happened to others? Then he would be an external witness, but who can
16 certainly testify about facts that took place in his presence. And
17 regarding that type of question, the Defence tells us that they do not
18 object, of course, because he's a simple witness, an ordinary witness,
19 testifying about what he saw, but not about what he himself suffered.
20 Because he doesn't belong to the category of victims in the terms of the
22 Regarding Rule 93 and the questions planned, I would like to ask
23 the Prosecution to comment. Mr. Stamp, what can you tell us additionally
24 before we deliberate?
25 MR. STAMP: The submission of the Prosecution in regard to Rule 93
1 was that a part of the reasons why the evidence ought to be admitted is
2 that it comes within the terms of Rule 93, and I think it is clear from
3 what my learned friend has indicated to the Court that they were served
4 with the documents relevant to this evidence. They were served with the
5 statements indicating what he had to say. So I think that deals with the
6 Rule 66 part of it.
7 Not only are we submitting that the evidence ought to be admitted
8 pursuant to Rule 93, but there are other reasons why it should be
9 admitted. The witness is able to give evidence as to the identity in
10 terms of the units to which the perpetrators belonged. That is something
11 which it is submitted the Court ought to hear and ought not to exclude
12 from the record, and it's really a matter for the Court to ultimately
13 consider as its probative value.
14 The second question which you asked, Mr. President, was as to what
15 exactly we wanted to -- the witness to testify about, whether it is his
16 own experience or what happened to others. It is submitted -- well,
17 before I submit, I will just say it is in regard to his own experience
18 primarily, because his own experience is so inextricably interwoven into
19 what he observed that there would be no point in attempting to sever what
20 he observed from what happened to him, because he observed what he
21 observed as a result of what happened to him. So it cannot be severed.
22 As regards the Common Article 3 issue, I think that has been well
23 settled in the jurisprudence here, and it is an interesting question, but
24 I don't think the question is of much significance in relation to the
25 issue of this witness's testimony.
1 And I have nothing further to add, unless there are any further
2 questions from the Court.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We're going to
4 withdraw for a few minutes, and we'll be back shortly.
5 --- Break taken at 11.13 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber is going to render
8 its ruling, following an objection made by the Defence counsels regarding
9 the conditions for the testimony of a witness. The Chamber has taken note
10 of the position of the Prosecution as well.
11 The Chamber is of the opinion that there are two problems. One
12 problem linked to Rule 93 and the second problem regarding the scope of
13 the questions put to the witness.
14 Regarding Rule 93 and evidence of consistent pattern of conduct,
15 that there is no reason to consider that questions can be put to the
16 witness to establish a consistent pattern of conduct which, in the
17 indictment and in the pre-trial brief, applies only to Serb or Croatian
18 victims. No mention is made of Bosniak detainees. Therefore, all
19 questions regarding the admissibility of evidence based on relevance
20 cannot be admitted.
21 Therefore, on those grounds, we will not admit as evidence replies
22 by the witness designed to establish a consistent pattern of conduct with
23 respect to Bosniak witnesses.
24 As for the scope of the questions that need to be put to the
25 witness, this witness will only reply to questions regarding what he saw
1 in relation to other co-detainees, and he will not comment on his own
2 position, on his own conditions of detention, nor the reasons which led up
3 to his arrest. His testimony and questions will relate only to what he
4 saw with respect other detainees, who were either Serb or Croat.
5 Under those conditions, and under the control of the Chamber, we
6 shall have the witness brought in. So, Mr. Usher, please bring in the
8 MR. STAMP: Before the witness is brought in --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stamp. The decision
10 has been rendered. You heard it. The Chamber will not be making any
11 revision of that decision, unless you wish to comment on another subject.
12 MR. STAMP: I wasn't asking for revision. I was merely asking for
13 a clarification. Will the witness be allowed to testify about the
14 identity of the persons who beat him?
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As we have indicated, he will
16 testify about what he saw. His personal condition is not covered by the
17 indictment or the brief. So you will ask him questions about what he saw
18 and not about what happened to him. It's quite clear.
19 MR. STAMP: Very well. Could the witness be brought in.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, Witness. Are you
22 receiving the interpretation of what I'm saying in your own language?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called here as a
25 witness for the Prosecution. You will be testifying about events of which
1 you were an eyewitness. Before doing so, you have to make a solemn
2 declaration. But before you make the solemn declaration, you should tell
3 me your first and last names.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Alija Podrug. I was born on the 3rd
5 of February, 1941, in Foca.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current profession?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm retired.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What was your profession in
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the chief of security in the
11 Catici power plant.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Have you already
13 testified before a tribunal, before an International Court, or is this the
14 first time?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Given that you will now be
17 testifying, you have to make the solemn declaration. Could you read the
18 text that is before you.
19 WITNESS: ALIJA PODRUG
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
24 Before the Prosecution takes the floor to conduct its
25 examination-in-chief, I would like to provide you with some information
1 about the way in which these proceedings will be conducted. You will
2 first have to answer the questions put to you by representatives of the
3 Prosecution. They are to your right. These questions will have to do
4 with the detention facility where you were detained, and you will be asked
5 to answer a certain number of questions.
6 After the Prosecution has concluded its examination-in-chief, you
7 will have to answer questions put to you by the Defence. They will
8 conduct their cross-examination and they will check the truthfulness of
9 your responses, and they will also ask you questions that concern the
10 context that might be relevant for the accused's case.
11 If the three Judges sitting before you feel that it is necessary,
12 they may ask you questions in order to clarify your answers. As you have
13 sworn to tell the truth, you should not lie. If you give false testimony,
14 you could be prosecuted, and the penalty for false testimony could consist
15 of a fine or a prison sentence of up to seven years, or both.
16 In addition, according to the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,
17 there is a very specific provision which concerns a witness who provides
18 information when answering a question, and this information could be used
19 to prosecute him subsequently. If this is the case, the witness can
20 refuse to answer the question. If the Trial Chamber forces the witness to
21 answer the question, the information that the witness provides can't be
22 used against the witness to prosecute the witness at a subsequent date.
23 It's a little complicated, but I had to inform you of this.
24 We know that you yourself were detained. This was discussed
25 before you entered the courtroom. But it is not your personal situation
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that interests the Trial Chamber. It is, in fact, what you saw while you
2 were detained. So this will be the scope of your testimony. You are not
3 considered to be a witness who is a victim in these proceedings. You are
4 considered to be a simple witness, an ordinary witness.
5 I will now turn to Mr. Stamp, who may take the floor.
6 But I would first like to point out to the witness that he should
7 try to answer the questions put to you to him as fully as possible. If
8 you don't understand a question, ask the person putting the question to
9 you to rephrase it so that you can understand the question. Sometimes the
10 questions are very complicated and the witness might fail to understand
11 the meaning of a question. If that is the case, you should ask the person
12 putting you the question to rephrase it. If you encounter any
13 difficulties, inform the Trial Chamber of the fact, and we will try to
14 deal with the problem.
15 Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
17 Examined by Mr. Stamp:
18 Q. Mr. Podrug, while you were the manager of Catici -- pardon me. The
19 security manager of Catici in 1993, where was it you were living at that
21 A. I was expelled from Foca. I arrived in Hrasnica. I reported to
22 my director in Hidrogradnja. I stayed there for a while. He told me to
23 stay on and to work there. I worked there for a certain period of time. I
24 was wounded by a shell. An ambulance then took me to Fojnica, which is
25 where I was treated, and I reported to my director in Hidrogradnja again.
1 He told me to go to Catici, to report to the chief of the construction
2 area and to remain there and to work there. That's what I did.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps there is a
4 translation error, or perhaps there was an error that appeared in the
5 question put by my colleague from the Prosecution. It's at page 40, at
6 the very beginning. A security officer in Catici has been mentioned. I
7 didn't hear the witness mentioning Catici. Could this issue be clarified
8 with the witness.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Catici shouldn't be
10 confused with the place that he referred to. Could the ask the witness
11 where he was chief of security:
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the construction of Hidrogradnja,
13 on the grounds of the Catici power plant. My company, Hidrogradnja, built
14 the power plant.
15 MR. STAMP:
16 Q. Now, prior to all of this you told us about, you were living in
17 Foca. What was your occupation in Foca?
18 A. I also worked for Hidrogradnja, as the chief of security, in
19 Visegrad, the Visegrad construction site, and the headquarters were in
21 MR. STAMP: For the record, I'm not sure if it's there.
22 Q. What is your ethnicity?
23 A. I'm a Bosniak, a Muslim.
24 Q. Now, in July 1993, where were you living?
25 A. I was living in Hrasnica, and I worked in Butmir, the Hidrogradnja
1 construction site. That's where I was wounded, and the ambulance took me
2 to the hospital in Fojnica. I reported to my head office in Sarajevo.
3 There were communications. The director told me to go to Catici, to
4 report to the chief of the construction site and to stay on there to work.
5 That's what I did.
6 Q. Now, on the morning of the 27th of July, 1993, at about 8.00,
7 where were you?
8 A. I was in Visoko, at my relatives' house. I was living there
9 because I couldn't find a flat in Kakanj and I would travel there by -- I
10 would travel to work by ThermoElektrana bus. I was drinking coffee in the
11 yard. A Lada car appeared and there were uniformed young men with beards.
12 They had head bands, green head bands on them with inscriptions in
13 Arabic. I recognised them as members of the 7th Muslim Brigade, because
14 I'd been with the secretary of the brigade, who is from Foca. He's a
15 lawyer by profession.
16 Q. What's the name of the secretary of the brigade?
17 A. Mustafa Oprasic.
18 Q. Now, you said that you recognised them as members of the 7th
19 Muslim Brigade. Was there any particular reason why you recognised them
20 as such?
21 A. Well, I would see them in Kakanj, and they were passing through
22 Catici. And on the grounds of the ThermoElektrana, the power plant where
23 UNPROFOR were located, there were people, women and children of Croatian
24 ethnicity were among the people who were taking refuge.
25 Q. Now, did any of these men who approached you that morning say
1 anything to you?
2 A. When they arrived, they called someone -- didn't want to say
3 anything. They were armed. They had rifles. They had beards and they
4 had headbands on. They said: "Is your name Alija Podrug?" And I said
5 yes. "Are you the chief of security?" I said yes. They said: "Our
6 commander would like to speak to you." I told them: "I have to go to
7 work now. I'll come later. I know that you're in the Sretno motel. I'll
8 turn up later." They said: "No. Come with us. That's what our
9 commander has told us to do. And come and sit down."
10 When they took me to Kakanj, to the motel, I then said: There's
11 your command --
12 Q. Let's just stop there a minute. Did the person who spoke to you
13 say who his commander was?
14 A. They said -- I saw him at Halid Cengic, where I was, in Visoko.
15 Q. Could you repeat what you just said? The question was: Did the
16 person who spoke to you say who his commander was? What's your answer?
17 A. No. He just said the commander. I knew who their commander was.
18 Q. Who was their commander?
19 A. Halil Brzina.
20 Q. Now, you also said that you told him that you know -- that you
21 knew that he or they were in the Sretno Motel. Do you know --
22 A. Yes. They told me the commander was in Zenica, and he is waiting
23 for you to be brought there. And that's how they took me off to an
24 unknown place. I didn't know it was the Music School. This is what I
25 found out later on.
1 Q. Very well. Do you know in any particular unit occupied the
2 Zenica -- sorry - occupied the motel Sretno?
3 A. Well, the 7th Muslim Brigade was there. Its general secretary is
4 someone from Foca. Mustafa Oprasic, I know him well. He was sitting
5 there in the office. I had had coffee with him on one occasion. He told
6 me that Halid Cengic said -- had said bad things about me.
7 Q. Just for clarification. You said you were sitting there in the
8 office and you had coffee with him on one occasion.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was the motel --
11 A. In the motel. Since he is from Foca and we knew each other from
12 before the war. He worked in the forestry field. He had graduated from
13 law school.
14 Q. Do you know exactly what role he played in the 7th Muslim Brigade?
15 A. Well, he was the secretary. He kept all the records. He would
16 register the members of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
17 Q. Now, you said the men took you to somewhere else and not to the
18 Motel Sretno. Where did they take you to?
19 A. They took me to the Music School in Zenica.
20 Q. Now, how long did you remain at the Music School in Zenica?
21 A. Seven days.
22 Q. And during -- well, were you at the Music School -- did you remain
23 there for seven days voluntarily or were you detained there?
24 A. I was detained, and I was beaten so severely on the sixth day. My
25 head was cracked. I lost consciousness for 24 hours. On the following
1 day, when I woke up, covered in blood, Hodza was sitting next to me.
2 Q. Okay. I didn't ask you what happened to you. It has been ruled
3 that what happened to you is of no relevance here. So can you just listen
4 to what I'm asking and answer it directly.
5 While you were detained there for seven days, were there other
6 prisoners there?
7 A. I didn't see anyone, because they interrogated me and took me to a
8 room by the stairs, on my own. I was alone. I didn't see anyone.
9 Q. Now, could you tell us what you saw when they interrogated you.
10 A. Well, I saw the bearded members of the 7th Muslim Brigade. They
11 all had headbands on.
12 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, I don't know wish to unnecessarily
13 interrupt the witness, but he is now giving evidence about what happened
14 to him during his interrogation. He has indicated that when he was there,
15 various things happened to him, but he didn't see what happened to anyone
16 else. And my learned friend is now asking him really what was happening
17 to him, and I would ask that he shouldn't be allowed to give evidence
18 about specifically his interrogation.
19 MR. STAMP: The record is that I asked him what he saw.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Stamp. First
21 of all, when he said that some things had happened to him, he said that
22 spontaneously. No one was expecting him to say that, but he did. But
23 then the Prosecution asked him what he had seen, what he had seen.
24 Apparently, he was alone, but he must have seen other people, and he's
25 been asked to say what he saw. He can say what he saw. He hasn't been
1 asked to say what happened to him. He's been asked to say what he saw.
2 There's a difference between something happening to you and seeing
3 something. And in English, the word "see" is used. Mr. Stamp has asked
4 him a question. There were certainly walls around him. There was a
5 table. There were individuals there. Perhaps he could tell us what he
6 saw around him.
7 So, Mr. Stamp, please continue, and the Trial Chamber will pay
8 attention to what's being said.
9 MR. STAMP: I am grateful, Mr. President.
10 Q. Will you tell us what you saw while you were being interrogated.
11 A. Well, I didn't see anything in the office, apart from the people
12 who beat me, who interrogated me, and I saw a picture of Khomeini on the
13 wall. That's what I noticed.
14 Q. How many times did you -- were you taken into that office?
15 A. I was taken to the office on five days. They would sometimes
16 cover my head with a jacket. When they took me to the office, and then
17 they would take me from the office up to the room. I didn't see movement
18 around me. That's where I would relieve myself and do everything else.
19 Q. Now, you were in the process of describing the people that you saw
20 in the office when my friend interjected. Could you describe the people
21 that you saw in the office.
22 A. They all had beards. I didn't know them, but the person who
23 interrogated me also had a beard, but he spoke my own language, so I could
24 understand him.
25 Q. Did you form any opinion as to the nationality or the origin of
1 the persons you saw in the room where you were being interrogated?
2 A. They would all say "Selaam". They were all Muslims. But as to
3 why they came from, I didn't know.
4 Q. Apart from the fact that they had beards, is there anything else
5 that you saw about them?
6 A. They had BH army inscriptions on them that said "the 7th Muslim
7 Brigade." This is what they had on their arms. And they had green
8 headbands on too, with an inscription in Arabic. This is something I
9 couldn't understand.
10 Q. Now, apart from the person that you saw in the room when you had
11 occasion to go there, were there guards at the Music School that you saw?
12 A. They didn't allow me to see anything. All I did was go up and
13 down the stairs. I never went outside. When they took me to the prison,
14 they did so at night. I didn't see anything.
15 Q. They took you to which prison at night, are you speaking of?
16 A. To the Zenica KP Dom, the penal and correctional facility, on the
17 2nd of August, 1993.
18 Q. Who took you?
19 A. Two of these bearded men. They only handed me over at the gate.
20 The person on duty took charge of me. I have a record of this. They
21 didn't give me a paper of any kind. But these people registered me and
22 took me to a cell. Later they brought another four Croats there who told
23 me that they were from Catici.
24 Q. Let's return to the Music School. Can you say which unit the
25 persons that you saw in the room when you were being interrogated belonged
2 A. They were all members of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that the
4 witness has answered this question already. He already answered the
5 question when the Prosecution asked him about this. He said that he could
6 clearly recognise the markings of the unit concerned.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stamp. He has already
8 answered this question. You asked him this question. He said it was the
9 7th Brigade. So asking the same question again is not useful. He's
10 answered the question.
11 MR. STAMP: Very well. I will abide by your ruling. But may I
12 just say, Mr. President, with respect, that earlier he said that he
13 observed their insignias -- the insignias being that of the 7th Muslim
14 Brigade. Now he's saying that they were members of the 7th Muslim
15 Brigade. That is not forensically speaking, precisely the same thing.
16 There might be other reasons why he might be able to tell the Court why
17 they were members of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
18 Q. However, I will just move on to ask this question. Why do you
19 say --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, if you want him to answer
21 more precisely, you can ask the witness your question.
22 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.
23 Q. Why do you say they were members of the 7th Muslim Brigade?
24 A. I knew them from Kakanj and I recognised them to be members of
25 that unit.
1 Q. Can you elaborate a little bit further on your answer?
2 A. When I went to see Mustafa, the secretary, he also told me that
3 Halid Cengic sent him that unit. They took him on as a lawyer and he
4 remained there to work for them. He asked me whether I would join. I
5 told him that I was employed. I worked in the field of security in my
6 company, in the Catici power plant. I didn't accept the offer.
7 Q. Did the secretary of the 7th Muslim Brigade tell you anything
8 about these bearded men?
9 A. He told me that these were good men, that they were working in the
10 name of Allah, in order to defend the Muslims, and that mostly volunteers
11 from Islamic world had come. But some local men had also joined.
12 Q. Did you tell -- did he tell you about his role, as secretary of
13 the 7th Muslim Brigade, in respect to these volunteers?
14 A. He just said that he was a reliable official --
15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness has
16 already expressed his opinion about the role of the secretary during his
17 testimony, that he kept records and a registry of members. I think he
18 gave a clear answer to this question already.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stamp. As you asked
20 him already about the person he knew, that is, the secretary of the 7th
21 Brigade, who was a lawyer, he told us what he did. But if you are asking
22 this question, I assume you have a purpose. But in the way in which the
23 question has been worded, then it is quite right to say that it has
24 already been asked and answered. Please continue, Mr. Stamp.
25 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.
1 Q. What, if anything, did he tell you about his role as secretary of
2 the 7th Muslim Brigade in respect to these volunteers that you spoke of?
3 A. That he was working on their registration, as a lawyer, because
4 he's qualified to do that, and that Halid Cengic had appointed him to this
5 position, Halid Cengic being from Visoko.
6 Q. Could you just tell us, in a sentence, what was the office of
7 Halid Cengic?
8 A. Halid Cengic was the chief of logistics for the defence of Bosnia
9 and Herzegovina, allegedly, at the time, and he was based in Visoko, and
10 he fled Foca and came there and abandoned Foca. And I inquired what he
11 was doing there.
12 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Nothing further.
13 MR. STAMP: That is the examination-in-chief, may it please you,
14 Mr. President, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is noon. I think it would be
16 better to have our 25-minute break now, and we will resume at 25 past
17 12.00. The Chamber may have a couple of questions for the witness,
18 perhaps, and then I will give the floor to the Defence for the
20 --- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed. Before
23 giving the floor to Defence counsel for the cross-examination, the Chamber
24 would like to address the witness for two points of clarification.
25 One has the impression, listening to you, that when you were at
1 the Sretno Motel, apart from the people that were going to interrogate
2 you, as you said, you didn't see anyone else, and the Chamber would like
3 to know whether, at the Sretno Motel, you saw other detainees. Were there
4 other detainees there or were you the only detainee held in a room there?
5 Were there other people there? What can you tell us about that? Because
6 you spent several days there.
7 Yes, Mr. Stamp. I'm not asking you the question. It is the
8 witness I'm addressing myself to.
9 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President. With respect, I understood that.
10 I just want to raise a point of clarification. I think the witness did
11 not indicate that he was detained at the Sretno Motel, but that he was
12 detained at the Zenica Music School. Just a matter of clarification, if I
13 may be of assistance to the Court. Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,
15 Mr. Stamp.
16 When you were at the Sretno Motel, were there other people in
17 addition to you, or were you alone there?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was alone, seeing the secretary,
19 Mustafa Oprasic.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And how long did you stay there
21 at the Sretno Motel?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For as long as it took for us to
23 have a cup of coffee, 10 or 15 minutes, perhaps.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And then afterwards,
25 when you were at the KP Dom, you spent several days there; is that right?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 101.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And at the KP Dom, you saw other
3 detainees, or were you alone in your cell?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first night I spent with four
5 Croats who also came beaten up, covered in blood, and one of them was with
6 me for 101 days, Tomic Marin in cell number 1, and he stayed behind when I
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And do you know why
9 you were in such a position at all? You had a job. Why did you find
10 yourself in that position for 101 days? Were you given an explanation
11 subsequently or not?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was, because I sued -- I
13 started proceedings in the state court in Sarajevo, and I was told that
14 Halid Cengic ordered my arrest. I know everything. I wrote everything
15 down as to who betrayed Foca, and that is the truth.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I give the floor to
17 the Defence.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Podrug. My name is Edina
21 Residovic and I'm Defence counsel for General Enver Hadzihasanovic. In
22 answer to a question by my learned friend, or rather, strike that.
23 Is it true, Mr. Podrug, that, as of 1963, you started working in
24 the State Security Service of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
25 A. No, not state security, but the security of the building site of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. From the very beginning, you joined in the defence of the country
3 and the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Foca?
4 A. Yes, correct. I have all the ID cards.
5 Q. After Foca fell into the hands of the Serb forces, you went to
6 Hrasnica; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. There you worked in your company, Hidrogradnja, under work
9 obligation rules; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. It is there that you were wounded and then transferred to Fojnica;
12 is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. As you told my learned friend, your manager appointed you to
15 provide security for the thermal power plant in Kakanj?
16 A. There was the mechanical equipment within the compound that I
17 needed to watch over and secure.
18 Q. You visited the Sretno Motel simply to see your friend from Foca,
19 Mustafa Oprasic; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You didn't inquire into the structure of the army and the police,
22 but you just learned some things along the way; is that right?
23 A. Yes, because I was a member of the Executive Council on behalf of
24 the SDA.
25 Q. In the Music School that you described for my learned friend, you
1 spent seven days in that school and you had no document about your arrest?
2 A. No, I had nothing.
3 Q. While you were in the KP Dom, criminal proceedings were instituted
4 against you for a serious crime of which you were later acquitted?
5 A. Yes. I was accused of serving the enemy army, the HVO in
6 Kiseljak, which is not true.
7 Q. You mentioned -- strike that. Actually, you believe that Halid
8 Cengic was responsible for what happened to you, and he's also from Foca?
9 A. Yes, correct, and he was a deputy, just like I was.
10 Q. As a member of the army from the beginning, the proceedings
11 against you, even though you were acquitted, hurt you badly, and you are
12 very bitter about everything that happened to you; is that right?
13 A. Yes, and I immediately left the SDA party when I was released.
14 Q. You believe that this person was the logistics chief for the whole
15 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that he was a powerful man, and that he was
16 able to do that to you?
17 A. He was the most powerful man, even more powerful than Alija
18 Izetbegovic, he and his son Hasan Cengic.
19 Q. Is it true, Mr. Podrug, that because of this bitterness that you
20 harbour for being accused of such a grave crime while being a fighter, you
21 spoke repeatedly about this?
22 A. Yes. I spoke for three hours for the media, and asked Alija
23 Izetbegovic to join me for the people to hear what we had to say.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Podrug.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I give the floor now to the
2 other Defence counsel.
3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. On
4 behalf of Mr. Kubura's Defence, we too have a few questions for today's
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Podrug, in the course of the
8 examination-in-chief today, in answer to a question from my learned
9 friend, you said that on the 27th of July you were in Visoko?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. During that period of time, you were really living in Kakanj,
12 where you were under work obligation?
13 A. No, I was not living in Kakanj. I had no accommodation. I worked
14 there and I used the power plant's bus to travel daily from Visoko to
16 Q. On that day, members of the 7th Muslim Brigade who introduced
17 themselves came to fetch you; is that right?
18 A. Yes, that is true. I have witness, Hadzan Kubat, that I stayed
19 with in his house in Visoko.
20 Q. And they told you that they were taking you to the brigade
21 headquarters to talk to the commander; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You thought you were going to the Sretno Motel, where, in your
24 opinion, the brigade headquarters was situated?
25 A. Yes, because I had seen Brzina two days prior to that, visiting
1 Halid Cengic in Visoko.
2 Q. The brigade command of the 7th Muslim Brigade was in the Sretno
3 Motel in Kakanj, in your opinion?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Before that, you mentioned that you had been to the Sretno Motel
6 on a couple of occasions to talk to the brigade secretary, Mr. Oprasic?
7 A. Only once. I learned that he was there, and I wanted to inquire
8 what he was doing.
9 Q. And your conversation lasted ten minutes or so?
10 A. Yes, for as long as it took us to have a cup of coffee.
11 Q. Did he himself tell you that he was the secretary of the 7th
12 Muslim Brigade?
13 A. He told me that, because he was a lawyer by profession, and I know
14 that he was that.
15 Q. Do you know that a brigade, a military unit, according to
16 establishment, cannot have a secretary?
17 A. It can have a lawyer, though.
18 Q. Are you aware of Osman Hasanagic? Does the name mean anything to
20 A. No.
21 Q. At the time, according to your testimony, you were familiar with
22 the command personnel of the 7th Muslim Brigade. You said that the
23 commander of that brigade was Brzina.
24 A. I saw him with Halid Cengic in Visoko two days prior to this, and
25 his driver told me that it was Halil Brzina, the commander of the 7th
1 Muslim Brigade.
2 Q. And you personally knew that he was commander?
3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll withdraw that question.
4 MR. STAMP: No. [Microphone not activated]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.
6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. After you got into the car, which you described as a Lada vehicle,
8 and when you passed through Kakanj, you went on to Zenica and you said to
9 a building that you didn't know.
10 A. Yes. I didn't know where the Music School was, nor was I ever
11 interested in it.
12 Q. After that, you learnt that it was the Music School building; is
13 that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Before that, you'd never been to the Music School in Zenica?
16 A. Never.
17 Q. During your testimony today and the examination-in-chief, you said
18 that you were interrogated on a number of occasions in the Music School
19 A. Yes, I was, and beaten up. I am -- I have a disability pension
20 because of the beating. I bled for a whole month, and Marin Tomic is a
21 witness of that. I left the prison and I weighed only 48 kilogrammes when
22 I left.
23 Q. Regarding the persons interrogating you, you were unable to
24 recognise them, nor did you know where they were from?
25 A. No. I didn't know any of them. They were just bearded, wearing
1 uniforms. I saw their insignia, and they had headbands.
2 Q. You didn't speak to any one of them, except the person who was
3 interrogating you?
4 A. No one wanted to talk. I assume they were foreigners.
5 Q. You spent only seven days in the Music School?
6 A. Yes, and they took me to the KP Dom at night. The Croats were
7 brought to this cell. We were sitting there all together in a single
8 cell, and all of us were covered in blood.
9 Q. In the Music School, you learnt why you were arrested?
10 A. They told me I was an enemy of my own people, and I said I was a
11 personal friend of Alija Izetbegovic and his bodyguard, and I have IDs to
12 prove it, and everyone knows that. I was a counsel on behalf of the SDA.
13 I enjoyed immunity. But they had no regard for that. They beat me. They
14 said: What do you mean, Alija? Who have you been writing to? Et cetera.
15 Q. In answer to a question from the President, you said that you
16 started proceedings in the court in Sarajevo on account of this. And
17 these proceedings were designed to achieve compensation for damages?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The proceedings ended, and it was rejected?
20 A. Yes, because the case was returned to Zenica and then it became
22 Q. I would like the witness to be shown a document compiled by his
23 solicitor from Sarajevo regarding the proceedings for compensation of
24 damages. The source of the document is the Prosecution. We received the
25 document from the Prosecution.
1 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think the witness has
2 been given the B/C/S version.
3 Q. This is a complaint made by your lawyers, Hadziahmetovic, Hidajet,
4 a lawyer from Sarajevo.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Defence, please. Could
6 Defence counsel please repeat the question, as the microphone was not
7 switched on.
8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. At the bottom of the first and second page, I think we can see
10 your signature. You can have a look at it. It's to the right. Was
11 Hidajet Hadziahmetovic your lawyer, a lawyer from Sarajevo?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did he represent you in this lawsuit?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is this a lawsuit that he filed on your behalf?
16 A. Yes, but there is just one mistake here. I wasn't a member of the
17 army. I was performing my work obligation.
18 Q. But your lawyer probably compiled this following your
19 instructions. In this lawsuit, you said that you were asking for
20 compensation for having been illegally detained in 1993; is that correct?
21 A. Yes. From the 2nd of August, they tried to shorten this for a
22 month, but this was finally detected. One knows when I was taken to
23 prison, when I left.
24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness has recognised
25 this lawsuit compiled by his lawyer, Hidajet Hadziahmetovic, from
1 Sarajevo, we suggest that this lawsuit be accepted -- be admitted into
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm addressing the Defence.
4 Because we have a text, a document in B/C/S, and we have two English
5 translations, one which must correspond to the trial judgement and the
6 second English text concerns the appeal proceedings, apparently.
7 Apparently there was a judgement from the Sarajevo court on the 28th of
8 December, 1999. And the appeals Chamber. That was on the 3rd of May,
9 2000. The B/C/S text corresponds to what, exactly? Apparently, this
10 should be the judgement rendered by the Trial Chamber.
11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we only suggested
12 that the lawsuit be shown to the witness, since he has already said that
13 it was rejected by the relevant court in Sarajevo. That's why we didn't
14 suggest that it be tendered into evidence. It's probably a mistake. The
15 fact that you have both documents is probably a mistake. We're only
16 talking about the lawsuit and the request to institute proceedings.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. What I was saying is that
18 the English text, or English texts' translation, if I'm not mistaken, I
19 have the impression that the English text that has to do with the appeal
20 proceedings is a text that we don't have in the B/C/S version. As you
21 have the documents before you, you could check this. I only have one
22 document in B/C/S, and I have two English translations. One is a
23 judgement rendered by the municipal court in Sarajevo, and the second one
24 has been issued by the appeals chamber.
25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll withdraw the
1 document, that is, the judgement. We only want to tender into evidence
2 the document that concerns instituting proceedings. We have provided a
3 translation of this document in B/C/S and in English.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. What does the Prosecution
5 have to say about having this document, these documents tendered into
7 MR. STAMP: What my friend is trying to do is to tender the
8 lawsuit and its translation. There was an error in adding the translation
9 in respect of the appeal.
10 Normally I would not really object to a request of this nature,
11 but it appears to me to be outside of the precise terms of the ruling of
12 the Court in respect to what the witness could be asked about. The
13 precise terms of the ruling [Microphone not activated] Asked about appears
14 on page 36, from line 14 [Microphone not activated]. What is being asked
15 now is clearly outside of those precise terms. Apart from that, I have no
16 objection to this course.
17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in response to a
18 question that you put to the witness, the witness spoke about the lawsuit
19 and the proceedings that were instituted in Sarajevo. This document is
20 one we have suggested, as we want to check this witness's credibility.
21 But as our learned colleague has no objection to raise, we stand by our
22 request to have this document tendered into evidence.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll mark this
24 document for identification, and the Trial Chamber will deliberate on what
25 to do with this document at a later date.
1 Mr. Registrar, could we have a number for this document, marked
2 for identification.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the B/C/S document will get Exhibit
5 number DK 9, and it's English translation of the claim gets the Exhibit
6 number DK9/E.
7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document has been marked
9 for identification, Mr. Registrar. We will deliberate about the document
10 after the hearing.
11 Please continue, if you have any further questions.
12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
13 have no further questions for this witness.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is there any re-examination for
15 the Prosecution? Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP: This is something that arose out of questions that
17 were put to the witness by the Trial Chamber, and that is in respect of
18 the Motel Sretno and the series of events. I merely want to ask him
19 whether or not his coffee with the person that he described to be the
20 secretary of the 7th Muslim Brigade occurred before or after his detention
21 at the Zenica Music School.
22 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:
23 Q. Do you understand that question, Mr. Podrug? When you spoke
24 with --
25 A. Yes. I had a coffee before I was detained and before I met Halid
1 Cengic, and that is where I saw Halil Brzina.
2 Q. Can you recall exactly which unit had its headquarters at the
3 Hotel Sretno?
4 A. There was only the unit of the 7th Muslim Brigade. That's what
5 Mr. Mustafa Oprasic told me.
6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, although the
7 witness has already answered this question again, this is a question that
8 the witness answered in the course of the examination-in-chief.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
10 MR. STAMP: It's already on the record, but not precisely the same
11 thing. Slightly different scope, it is submitted.
12 That will be all, may it please Mr. President. Thank you very
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Mr. Podrug, you have come to testify here at the request of the
16 Prosecution. You were only to testify about the facts that you witnessed,
17 because, unfortunately, your personal situation is not one included in the
18 allegations made in the indictment. And this is why what happened to you
19 personally was not a matter that could be discussed, given that the
20 allegations that concern your personal situation are not allegations with
21 which the accused can be charged. You yourself told us spontaneously,
22 without having been asked about this, that certain things had happened to
23 you. You also mentioned that you had instituted proceedings in courts. As
24 a result, your personal situation must have been dealt with before the
25 national courts. This is not a matter that we can deal with. So we just
1 wanted to inform you that you were not in a position to testify about what
2 happened to you personally, but only about what you saw. You have
3 answered the questions put to you by the Prosecution, as well as the
4 questions put to you by the Defence. You have also answered the Trial
5 Chamber's questions. We are grateful for your answers. We wish you a
6 good trip home. And I'm now going to ask the usher to escort you out of
7 the courtroom.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 MR. STAMP: May I just rise to indicate, Mr. President, Your
10 Honour, that as a matter of fairness, the objection to the document
11 presented by my friend is withdrawn. Clearly, it's relevant and something
12 the Court should consider. Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will deliberate
14 on the matter.
15 We have a little more time. There are no more witnesses scheduled
16 for today. Mr. Withopf.
17 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, there's no further witness scheduled
18 for today. In respect to the witness who's scheduled tomorrow, can I
19 please ask to go into private session to raise an issue related to the
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. We'll go into
22 private session.
23 [Private session]
12 Page 4315 redacted, private session
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. At this
13 point in time, the Defence would like to inform the Trial Chamber that we
14 have taken certain steps. About a month ago we took certain steps. The
15 Trial Chamber was informed of this through the legal officer, and the
16 Prosecution was also informed of this, as well as the Registry.
17 We would like to inform the Trial Chamber that we have obtained a
18 model that represents Central Bosnia. This model arrived yesterday
19 evening. Mr. President, we would like to be able to use this model in the
20 course of examination-in-chief and the cross-examination of certain
21 witnesses. Nevertheless, there are a number of difficulties.
22 This model is fairly large. It consists of six parts. And in our
23 opinion -- we haven't put all the parts together yet, but in our opinion,
24 the size of the model would be three metres by two metres. We'll check
25 this, and this should enable us to place the model in the middle of the
1 courtroom. We have discussed this possibility with the Prosecution. The
2 Prosecution has told us that they have no objections to us using the
3 model. Our intention would be to have the model in the courtroom for one
4 witness who could identify it, and then we would only use parts of the
5 model for certain witnesses. (redacted)
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you prepare
10 an order so that we can have the reference to this witness redacted from
11 the transcript. It's page 67, line 12. The interpreters' booth has said
12 that the Prosecution also made reference to the name. If that is the
13 case, the name should be redacted in this case too.
14 Mr. Registrar, you'll prepare the order for me.
15 You may continue, Mr. Bourgon.
16 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. At this
17 point in time, the hearing of this witness should commence in Courtroom II
18 on Thursday. This will not make it possible for us to use the model in
19 question. And on Friday morning, I think that we will be back in
20 Courtroom III. And that is when we would be able to use the model. We
21 will immediately establish contact with the Registry and the security
22 services after this hearing, to organise everything to have the model
23 installed before the hearing on Friday.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a technical matter. Given
25 that you want to use this model when cross-examining a witness, will you
1 be requesting that the model be admitted into evidence?
2 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is not our
3 intention to request that the model be admitted into evidence. What we
4 want to do is to have a witness identify the model, the witness who will
5 be heard on Thursday and Friday, in particular, and we would like it to be
6 marked for identification. But we will not be requesting that it be
7 tendered into evidence, unless the Trial Chamber thinks that this might be
8 appropriate in the circumstances. Thank you, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, with regard to the
10 model, is there anything the Prosecution would like to say? Are there any
11 objections you would like to raise? As far as I can remember, models have
12 already been used in other cases. This would not be anything new. And it
13 might be very useful. What is the Prosecution's position?
14 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, this is certainly
15 completely correct. And as my learned colleague already indicated, on
16 principle, the Prosecution has no objections in using such a model in the
17 course of the court proceedings. However, the Prosecution would like to
18 ask the learned colleagues to inform the Trial Chamber when, where, by
19 whom, was this model created, and whether it shows anything in addition to
20 the geographic features, geographical features in Central Bosnia. We will
21 certainly reserve our final comments until the time the learned colleagues
22 from the Defence side have provided some more information on the model to
23 both the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I think Mr. Bourgon will
25 be able to respond to the extent that the main concern of the Prosecution
1 is that if it merely reproduces the topography of the area, they have no
2 objection. But if the model contains other elements that could cause
3 problems, you -- can you tell us already at this point whether this model
4 is simply a miniature model in six square metres of the region of Central
6 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. What we
7 can tell you at this stage is that this model is part of a much larger
8 model which represents Bosnia as a whole. We have already had occasion to
9 have a look at the model, but it arrived yesterday evening. It is still
10 packed. And this afternoon, we are going to put it together, to make sure
11 that it only represents the topography and nothing more than that. Thank
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Be that as it may,
14 the model can only be installed in Courtroom I or Courtroom III, because
15 it's impossible to do it in Courtroom II.
16 Are there any other questions? There don't appear to be any. We
17 will meet again at 2.15 on Thursday, as tomorrow's hearing has been
18 cancelled. So I invite everyone to come back to the courtroom planned for
19 this trial on Thursday afternoon. The hearing is adjourned.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.18 p.m.
21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of March
22 2004, at 2.15 p.m.