1 Thursday, 18 March 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, Enver

8 Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Could

10 we have the appearances for the Prosecution.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

12 Honours. Good morning, Counsel. For the Prosecution, Tecla Benjamin,

13 Ekkehard Withopf, and Ruth Karper, case manager.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

15 And could we have the appearances for the Defence.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. Good

17 morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina

18 Residovic, counsel, Stefane Bourgon, co-counsel, and Mirna Milanovic, our

19 legal assistant. Thank you.

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

21 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

22 Mulalic, our legal assistant.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber

24 would like to greet everyone in the courtroom that is present for this

25 hearing. I would like to greet the representatives of the Prosecution,

1 Mr. Withopf and Ms. Benjamin, the Defence, the accused, and everyone else

2 present in the courtroom. And I wouldn't want to forget the security

3 officers either. We have two witnesses scheduled for today, according to

4 the document that we have been forwarded. It seems that protective

5 measures will be requested for one of the witnesses. I don't know if this

6 concerns the first witness or the second one. Mr. Withopf.

7 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, both witnesses are

8 available, as indicated in our recent witness schedule. The first witness

9 scheduled for today requests protective measures, and if we could go, for

10 that purpose, for the application, into private session, please.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, private session,

12 please.

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9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask you once again

12 to tell us your full name, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Mirko Ivkic. I was born

14 on the 19th of August, 1963, in Blazevac, in Northern Bosnia.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your occupation?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My occupation, I'm a Catholic priest

17 and an official.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, what was your position

19 at the time?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a priest at the time too,

21 serving in Travnik.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You need to take the

23 solemn declaration by reading the text that Madam Usher is going to give

24 you.

25 WITNESS: MIRKO IVKIC

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please be seated.

5 Before giving you some clarifications regarding the proceedings, I wish to

6 ask you first whether you have ever testified in court, or is this the

7 first time for you?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time for me to be

9 testifying.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you are testifying for the

11 first time in a court of law, you will have to answer questions which will

12 be put to you by representatives of the Prosecution, who are to your

13 right. The questions will have to do with your position at the time and

14 with the things you yourself saw or heard. At the end of this

15 examination, which will take a certain period of time, the lawyers of one

16 of the accused, who are to your left and who are in the first row, will

17 also ask you some questions within the Anglo-Saxon procedure known as the

18 cross-examination. The three Judges in front of you may, at any point in

19 time, regardless of the questions put to you by the parties, also ask you

20 certain things for the sake of clarification.

21 If a question appears complicated, ask the person putting it to

22 you to rephrase it in simple and more understandable terms. Sometimes

23 questions may consist of several questions put in one, and it may be

24 difficult to answer them with precision. When you find yourself in that

25 situation, ask the person asking the question to rephrase it.

1 Also, I need to remind you of some things that you are not aware

2 of but you have to know. You have taken the solemn declaration, which of

3 course means that you may not lie, and lies, in a court of law, are

4 sanctioned by what is known as prosecution by perjury. In the rules that

5 govern our work, which will not apply to you but which I have to recall,

6 is the fact that if, in answering a question, there may be certain

7 incriminating elements, the witness may refuse to answer such a question.

8 The Chamber may compel the witness to answer them, nevertheless, and then

9 the information provided cannot be used as evidence against the witness.

10 Those would be, in very general terms, some points of information

11 regarding the procedure that will be applied during this hearing and your

12 testimony.

13 Without further ado, I turn to Mr. Withopf to start his

14 examination.

15 Examined by Mr. Withopf:

16 Q. Good morning, Witness. Witness, have you ever studied at a

17 university?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber what you have studied and

20 where you studied.

21 A. I studied in Sarajevo, at the faculty of theology, the philosophy

22 and theology department.

23 Q. Can you please also inform the Trial Chamber when you studied

24 theology and when you graduated.

25 A. I studied from 1983 until 1989, and I graduated that year in

1 Sarajevo.

2 Q. Witness, after you graduated at the University of Sarajevo, what

3 did you do afterwards?

4 A. After that, as an ordained priest, I was ordained after

5 graduation. The ordainment took place on the 29th of June, 1989. And in

6 the autumn of the same year, I was sent to serve as a priest, as a

7 chaplain, in Travnik. A chaplain is the assistant of the main priest in

8 Travnik.

9 Q. And for how long, Witness, for how long did you stay in Travnik?

10 A. I stayed in Travnik from the early autumn of 1989 until I left

11 Travnik, which was in mid-June 1993.

12 Q. Have you been in Travnik throughout 1989 until June 1993?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And have you been, throughout this period of time, a chaplain?

15 A. Up until 1993, in the course of 1993, I acquired responsibility

16 for the whole parish, because the colleague whose assistant I was, was

17 rather ill and virtually I took charge of most things even before that.

18 Q. Can you, Witness, please inform the Trial Chamber in which church,

19 in which Catholic church in Travnik you worked.

20 A. It is the church dedicated to St. John the Baptist. It is in the

21 centre of town, in the street called Titova 97.

22 Q. This church of St. John Baptist, did it also have a second name,

23 another name?

24 A. It was known as the Church of St. Ivo, or the Lukacka Church.

25 Q. Witness, have you ever been a member of the Yugoslav People's

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1 Army, the JNA?

2 A. Yes, I was.

3 Q. Would you please inform the Trial Chamber from when to when.

4 A. Before I enrolled at the university, which means in 1982 to 1983.

5 I don't know exactly. I think up until September of 1983. And

6 immediately after completing my military service, I enrolled at the

7 theology faculty in Sarajevo.

8 Q. In the first half of 1993, Witness, to your knowledge, which

9 military units were based in the town of Travnik?

10 A. In the first half of 1993, the military forces that were there

11 were of the HVO, that is, of the Croatian people, and forces of the Army

12 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which were, in fact, considered to be Muslim

13 forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Q. The military units of the ABiH, to your knowledge, where were they

15 based in Travnik?

16 A. To the best of my knowledge, they were stationed in the Marshal

17 Tito Barracks, and I'm not familiar with the structure, nor the actual

18 administration of the army, but the soldiers were there. That is as much

19 as I know.

20 I also know that many soldiers were also at home, and they served

21 by going to the lines and returning home. That applies to the Croats, at

22 least.

23 Q. Coming back to the ABiH unit in the barracks in Travnik: Do you

24 know which name this unit had or how they were called?

25 A. People referred to the military forces in the Marshal Tito

1 Barracks as the Krajisnici, saying that they had moved in there. They

2 called them the Krajisnici. In fact, however, what this meant was that

3 they had arrived from the outside. As for the local Muslim forces, I

4 can't really say where they were and what units they formed and what

5 different formations existed.

6 Q. For clarification, Witness: What do you understand by

7 saying "they arrived from the outside"?

8 A. This means that those military forces consisted of people who had

9 been expelled, who were refugees, and the name itself tells you where they

10 were expelled from, that is, from Krajina. That is the areas around

11 Banja Luka, Sanski Most, where the Serbian Krajina had been established,

12 and people were simply expelled from there. Many of them were also

13 expelled from the eastern part of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Especially it was

14 not clear who was active in town after the fall of Jajce, which is the

15 larger town in the vicinity of Travnik.

16 Q. To your knowledge, Witness, can you please tell us who was the

17 commander of the ABiH unit based in the barracks in Travnik.

18 A. To my knowledge, the commander was Mehmed Alagic.

19 Q. And to your knowledge, did he have a deputy or an assistant?

20 A. Another person I knew and whom I considered to be his assistant,

21 and others told me that too, was Cuskic. I don't know what his status

22 was. I think he was a major or something like that, but I am not quite

23 sure about that. I don't know those things. But I know that they were

24 together and that the two of them, in fact, were in charge of the Krajina

25 Brigade.

1 Q. Witness, did there come a time when you noticed foreigners

2 arriving in Travnik or in the area of Travnik?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber, Witness, as to when,

5 for the first time, you noticed such foreigners arriving in Travnik or the

6 area of Travnik.

7 A. It was noticeable at the beginning of 1993, especially in March

8 and April. So mostly in the spring of that year.

9 Q. Have you yourself, Witness, have you yourself seen such foreigners

10 in Travnik?

11 A. Yes, I have.

12 Q. To your knowledge, where did these foreigners come from?

13 A. To my knowledge, they were not visitors of Croatian people and

14 Croatian families. They came to visit the Muslims, the local Muslims in

15 Travnik.

16 Q. And to your knowledge, where did they come from? From which

17 countries?

18 A. Among my people, they believed and said that they had come from

19 Islamic countries, such as Afghanistan, Iran, Sudan.

20 Q. These people from the countries you just mentioned, did they wear

21 any uniforms?

22 A. It was a kind of combination. There were parts that were military

23 uniforms, and also parts of Islamic gear.

24 Q. And were these people armed? Did they have any weaponry?

25 A. They were. Some of them, not all of them, carried the

1 conventional type of weapon. Sometimes they walked around unarmed,

2 sometimes armed. And they also carried weapons that are not meant for

3 war, for parades, various types of knives or swords or something like

4 that, something that was meant to impress that they were there, to make

5 their presence felt. They didn't look like non-combatants.

6 Q. Witness, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, can you please

7 explain what you do understand under "conventional type of weapon."

8 A. I imply a rifle, a pistol, or things a bit larger than a rifle.

9 Q. And what things are a bit larger than a rifle?

10 A. I'm afraid I'm not very qualified to speak about these things, but

11 there are larger rifles that I don't consider to be normal rifles. I

12 don't really know how to put it. I can't go into describing weaponry,

13 because I'm not very well versed in these things.

14 Q. Witness, you were just stating that they were carrying knives,

15 swords, something that was meant to impress that they were there, to make

16 their presence felt. Were they, to your knowledge, successful in doing

17 so?

18 A. They were. Our people, they didn't carry cameras or tourist maps

19 or anything like that, but they were there to intimidate others, and that

20 is what I heard often from my people, that their presence was not -- did

21 not herald peace.

22 Q. Just for clarification, Witness: If you are saying you heard it

23 often from your people, are you referring to knowledge you received being

24 a priest in Travnik?

25 A. Yes. I mean the information and comments regarding what I saw and

1 what others saw. I couldn't see everything, but I saw some very clear

2 signs and very clear -- clearly I saw them parading in town, and I also

3 heard additional comments from others that were made always with a feeling

4 of apprehension and fear regarding their presence in town. Their presence

5 was particularly prominent in the area around the mosque, around the

6 multicoloured mosque. This is the information that I was told.

7 Q. Being a priest, Witness, did you have a lot of contact to the

8 local people in Travnik?

9 A. Yes, I did. This was not due to any particular efforts on my

10 part, but it was the fact that the people in that area have a great deal

11 of confidence in their priest. They trust him and have hopes from him,

12 and they attach great importance to the opinion of the priest, and that is

13 why they brought this information to me and addressed questions to me as

14 well.

15 Q. You were saying, Witness, that, and I quote, "Our people were

16 talking to you about the Mujahedin." To what people are you referring to?

17 What do you consider as being "our people"?

18 A. I'm referring to my collaborators in the parish where I was

19 active, and also to all the other people who had come to the parish who

20 were members of the parish community. They would come for Sunday mass and

21 for masses celebrated on other days. I could feel their fear too.

22 Q. And of what ethnicity, Witness, were the members of your parish

23 community?

24 A. They were of Croatian nationality.

25 Q. Did these armed people, foreign armed people, with different kinds

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1 of uniforms, were they referred to using a certain name, a certain

2 expression?

3 A. They were immediately called the Mujahedin. No other term was

4 used to refer to them. That was the main name used when describing them.

5 Q. And these armed Mujahedin in different kind of uniforms, to your

6 knowledge and from what you've seen, did they appear as single persons in

7 Travnik or in bigger groups?

8 A. I didn't see big groups, but I would see small groups or groups of

9 two. They were in certain areas. They would move around the area. Their

10 presence was quite obvious, because they stood out. They didn't look like

11 the other people that you would see in the town.

12 Q. For the benefit of the Trial Chamber, Witness, can you please

13 explain why they stood out.

14 A. The clothes they wore stood out, the colour of their skin, their

15 complexion, their hair. These things stood out. And although a large

16 part of the population of the town was Muslim, they looked different from

17 both communities. They also wore headbands at times, or something around

18 their necks. I can't describe this very precisely, but they were very

19 obvious. They could be spotted very easily, both by the Muslims, the

20 local Muslims, and by the local Croats.

21 Q. These armed Mujahedin, did they have a collection point in Travnik

22 or a certain area where they gathered?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that the

24 witness has already answered this question. The witness said that it was

25 near the Sarena Dzamija, the Sarena mosque.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that was the area that

2 they would often move around. Large numbers would often gather there. As

3 to where they gathered, where they had their headquarters, where they

4 organised themselves, I am not in a position to tell you much about this.

5 I know nothing about this. But their presence in the town was quite

6 evident and they were frequently seen there. In fact, it amounted to

7 mystifying the people who were present there, in the sense that they

8 wanted to instil fear among the Croats, the Catholic population present in

9 the area.

10 MR. WITHOPF:

11 Q. Witness, in June 1993, was there still the HVO in Travnik?

12 A. In June 1993, the HVO was no longer present in Travnik.

13 Q. To your knowledge, when had the HVO units, when have the HVO units

14 withdrawn from Travnik?

15 A. I couldn't tell you when precisely, but given the religious

16 holidays, I know that it was around Easter. It was in spring. I don't

17 know whether it was at the end of March or at the beginning of April. I

18 really don't know the exact dates, and I didn't pay attention to this at

19 the time because I had a lot of duties to perform. We were under a lot of

20 psychological pressure and we had a lot of work to do, as there were a lot

21 of refugees in the town, and I worked in Caritas. I was responsible for

22 providing refugees in Travnik with assistance, with aid.

23 Q. Whilst working for the Caritas, and in this context, did you ever

24 have contact to ABiH soldiers?

25 A. No. I had almost no contact whatsoever with the army, up until

1 the time when the conflict escalated, and then, after the conflict

2 escalated, I had a lot of contact with them. Then there were situations.

3 They would enter houses and so on. I can't say which formations were

4 concerned, and I can't tell you how authority, and especially military

5 authority, was established in the area of Travnik. I know that the

6 military conflict between the Croats and the Muslims placed us at risk in

7 our house in the centre of town. We had contact with them, not because we

8 wished to have such contact but because they would appear.

9 Q. Did you, Witness, in your position, or working for the Caritas,

10 did you ever provide ABiH soldiers with any food or other supplies?

11 A. Before that conflict broke out, cooperation with the Muslim

12 charitable organisations was initially good. We had good cooperation with

13 them. We helped some of the Muslims too. And I assume that Muslim

14 charities also helped our people. But the food that I had at my disposal

15 was never provided to the army. But once the conflict had escalated, then

16 some of the food that was in the basement of the house was quite simply

17 confiscated. And when I asked for it, when I said that I was responsible

18 for those goods, for the food intended for the people, they said that they

19 would make a note of this. Finally, I signed something, to the effect

20 that this was a gift I was giving to the BH army. At that point, a lorry

21 arrived in front of the house and they collected everything.

22 Q. And, Witness, was it actually a gift you've given to the BiH army?

23 A. That's what I had to sign. I didn't give the army a gift of any

24 kind. I didn't give the army anything. So it was a gift, in inverted

25 commas.

1 Q. Does it mean that you were forced by the ABiH to provide them with

2 food that was meant by Caritas to be given to the people in Travnik?

3 A. I was forced to sign this document, but I couldn't prevent them

4 from taking these goods from the house.

5 Q. And if you are saying you couldn't prevent them from taking these

6 goods from the house, whom are you making reference to, if you say "them"?

7 A. I'm referring to the BH army, the Muslim army.

8 Q. Did there come a time, Witness, when you've given a statement on

9 the local radio in Travnik?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And can you please tell the Trial Chamber as to when you've given

12 such a statement on the local radio in Travnik.

13 A. I made those statements in the course of intense fighting, after

14 the conflict between the BH army and the HVO had escalated. As I was in

15 the town and was not able to establish contact with refugees or with the

16 other part of my people, I was quite simply forced to remain in Travnik.

17 I was forced to remain in my house. And I had the opportunity of making a

18 statement on the radio. When I say that I had the opportunity of making

19 such a statement, that doesn't mean that I actually wanted to take

20 advantage of that opportunity.

21 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber what the statement was

22 about.

23 A. I spoke about the very beginning about the time when the majority

24 of the Croatian population was expelled from the surrounding villages and

25 from the area of Travnik, from the town itself, and mostly from the

1 outskirts of the town, because they were in a position to flee two, three,

2 four, five days later. I can't be very precise. So it's on that occasion

3 that I made a statement, and I also made a statement after the church in

4 Travnik had been damaged. I remember that I did this on two occasions.

5 Q. Witness, you just said: "When I say that I had the opportunity of

6 making such a statement, that doesn't mean that I actually wanted to take

7 advantage of that opportunity." Can you please, in more detail, inform

8 the Trial Chamber what that means.

9 A. Well, when I said that, I meant that I couldn't speak freely on

10 Radio Travnik, and my statements depended on the situation I was in and on

11 the situation that the other inhabitants of Travnik were in. This

12 influenced what I actually said. I wanted something to be done to avoid

13 having a large number of victims, to prevent -- to ensure that civilians

14 were not killed. Because the population spent months in fear, especially

15 when the HVO withdrew from Travnik. The tension was rising at the time.

16 Things had come to a head, and I wanted to take action. I wanted to do

17 something. I wanted the information to get through. However, the

18 information I wanted to provide couldn't be provided. This was simply not

19 possible. So when I had the opportunity of speaking on the radio, I took

20 this to be an opportunity to cooperate, in inverted commas, and this would

21 be to the benefit of the Muslims. This would help the BH army in

22 achieving their objectives.

23 Q. Based on what you just told us, Witness, cooperation, in inverted

24 commas, does that mean you did not volunteer to say what you actually said

25 on the radio?

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1 A. The first time I spoke, I asked for any sort of access to the

2 media. This was made possible only after they already knew what my

3 position was and what my assessment of the situation was. And then I was

4 supported in doing this. And the dramatic events -- I was supported in my

5 effort to diminish the seriousness of the events, and I saw that I was no

6 longer in a position to go back. And then what I said was what the

7 Muslims expected me to say. It was what they had suggested I should say.

8 Otherwise, I wouldn't have had access to the media. In fact, when I did

9 gain access to the media, this was very perfidious. I had almost no

10 contact with the Croats at the point. I only had contact with the

11 Muslims, or the Muslim army and their authorities. My activity was

12 reduced to nothing. Although many people were killed, I wasn't able to

13 move around freely. I wasn't able to leave my house, except when there

14 were statements of this kind that I had to make.

15 Q. Witness, can you please inform the Trial Chamber what was the gist

16 of the statements you made on the radio in Travnik.

17 A. When I first spoke on the radio, what I said, essentially,

18 amounted to justifying the Muslim people -- not the Muslim people; the

19 Muslims, the Muslim forces - I apologise - who had entered a conflict with

20 the Croats. I was to show that they were innocent, and I was to accuse

21 the Croatian leadership and declare them to have instigated the conflict.

22 I was to appeal to the Croats to return. But this was only after they had

23 already left, because that is an important factor. The Croatian people,

24 after the escalation occurred, were between Travnik, down below, and the

25 Serbian positions which were further up. There were a lot of people

1 there, several thousand, as far as I know, and they set off in the

2 direction of the other side. So they couldn't return.

3 And the second time I spoke on the radio, I was supposed to speak

4 about the positive situation in Travnik, in inverted commas, the very

5 positive situation. And with regard to the destruction of the church and

6 of all the sacred objects in the church, I was supposed to show that the

7 destruction, the damage, wasn't extensive. I was supposed to describe it

8 as an accidental act of no great importance.

9 The second time I spoke on the radio, I was summoned to do so. I

10 had no choice. I had to make such a statement on the radio. I was forced

11 to go to the radio. I wasn't allowed to leave the house any more, but I

12 was forced to go and make this statement.

13 I also wanted to hear me read out what I heard written down first.

14 I read this out over the telephone.

15 Q. May I just stop you here, Witness, in order to ask you a few

16 follow-up questions. You were informing the Trial Chamber that you made

17 twice statements on the radio. Do you recall, even if it's on roughly,

18 the dates as to when you made such statements you just described?

19 A. The first time was at the very beginning of the escalation. I

20 couldn't tell you the exact day, because I was in a very bad state at the

21 time, just like everyone else who had remained in Travnik, so I didn't

22 make a note of the day, of the date. I know it was at the beginning of

23 June, the 2nd or the 3rd or the 4th perhaps. I left Travnik before the

24 day when the parish celebrates its patron saint. That was the 24th of

25 June. So it was during that period that I and the others in Travnik went

1 through terrible things, and it was during that period that I appeared on

2 the radio on those two occasions, once at the beginning, and the second

3 time, after the 7th of June, if I'm not mistaken. That's after the church

4 had been damaged.

5 Q. And we are talking about June 1993, don't we [sic]?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Witness, you were just mentioning that your house was guarded

8 during this period of time. Who actually guarded your house?

9 A. There was no one around the house at the beginning, but various

10 troops or groups of troops would enter the house. They searched for

11 weapons. They took the car. During the night, there was a lot of

12 disturbance. They also opened fire on the house after a certain period of

13 time. We were assigned two BH army soldiers. That's what I assume. I

14 know one of them very well. He was a nice young man. I knew the other

15 person too. They moved into the house, into the lower part of the house,

16 and they were there as guards, in order to protect us, in order to guard

17 us.

18 Q. One last question prior to the break, with the permission of the

19 Trial Chamber. Witness, who was searching your house for weapons, and who

20 took the car?

21 A. Various formations or groups of soldiers. They were wearing

22 military uniforms. That was a time of war. They were carrying weapons

23 and wearing military uniforms. They would enter the house. And on one

24 occasion - I've also mentioned this in my statement - on one occasion they

25 entered the house at the very beginning, because a commander of a group or

1 of a police force asked me to contact the Croatian side and to ask Mr.

2 Leutar, the HVO commander -- his children and wife were there and I was

3 told to ensure that nothing would happen to them. I did this gladly. I

4 phoned them. And we were insulted, threatened. We were wondering what

5 would happen.

6 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, if we could now make

7 the break, please.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to have the break

9 now. It is 10.30. And we will resume at five to 11.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, you may continue

13 your examination-in-chief.

14 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.

15 Q. Witness, how did the Croatian population in Travnik receive your

16 statements made on the radio, did you get to know about?

17 A. I learnt, when I left and went to Novi Travnik, that they were

18 simply disappointed, and there was a division of view. Some thought that

19 it was madness, what I had said, and others, who thought better of it,

20 knew why I had said that. And as they realised how dramatic the

21 conditions were down there, they were less surprised by what I had said.

22 In any event, my first statement on the radio was shocking for Croats, who

23 were the victims and who had to listen to such a statement.

24 Q. Witness, can you please, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber,

25 describe the situation of Croats in Travnik in May and June 1993. Were

1 they allowed to leave the town?

2 A. In May, it was still possible to freely leave and enter the town,

3 though at the entrance to the town, especially the area towards

4 Novi Travnik, there were frequently checkpoints established there, near

5 the Sarena Dzamija, the multicoloured mosque, I was stopped on a couple of

6 occasions, and again close to Plava Voda, along that route. Maybe I

7 didn't quite understand your question.

8 Q. Did there come a time -- did there come a time, Witness, just to

9 clarify this, when you asked for permission to leave Travnik?

10 A. May I just add to my answer to the previous question. One could

11 come and go until the conflict escalated. When the town was hermetically

12 closed, no one could leave or come in. And with time, I realised that the

13 people were in grave danger, who wanted to leave and couldn't leave. I

14 too wanted to leave at all cost, because, as time passed, I felt I was in

15 danger and at great personal risk. And in view of my position and the

16 role I had in Travnik before that, and the fact that I had stayed in the

17 town, the only person visible in the parish office who could represent the

18 Croatian people in Travnik was myself, but I was unable to perform that

19 duty in the interest of the Croats, but I was used as an instrument, in

20 fact.

21 Q. Witness, you were just saying that the town was hermetically

22 closed. Who was actually closing the town?

23 A. The military activities caused this, so that I can't tell you

24 exactly who it was who ordered it, or under what conditions it was sealed.

25 I just know that it was impossible to leave, because there was a lot of

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1 shooting. And when there wasn't any shooting, I didn't have the

2 possibility, nor the right, to leave. This could only be done through the

3 mediation of UNPROFOR or through the mediation of the military forces, in

4 my case, through the forces of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

5 Q. Witness, you were just saying that there were many checkpoints.

6 Soldiers of which army did man the checkpoints?

7 A. On the town side were the soldiers of the Army of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina.

9 Q. Let's move on, Witness, to a different issue. Can you please tell

10 the Trial Chamber where the house you were living in at the time, where in

11 Travnik it is and was located.

12 A. The house I was living in was located in the centre of town, next

13 to the church, which is also in the centre of town, in Titova Street,

14 which was a pedestrian area.

15 Q. Witness, did there come a time when the church in Travnik, when

16 the church was negatively affected by the conflict?

17 A. Yes. The church was affected by the conflict. If you mean the

18 building itself, the church as a building was the target of fire, with

19 firearms. But the most dramatic incident occurred when the church was

20 broken into and totally demolished.

21 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber as to when it happened,

22 even if you only do know a rough date.

23 A. This happened in the early part of the month of June. I think it

24 was on the 7th. I don't know what day of the week it was. In the

25 morning. All we could do was to stay in the house, and we couldn't go

1 out. And then on the 7th of July [as interpreted], the church was broken

2 into, and the demolition of the inside started. There were loud noises of

3 destruction inside the church itself.

4 Q. May I please, Witness, may I please interrupt you for a second to

5 clarify an issue. The transcript says on the 7th of July. Was it the 7th

6 of July or the 7th of June?

7 A. No, no. It can't be July. That's an error. I'm sorry. In July

8 I was no longer in Travnik. I must also tell you that the names of the

9 month, even I don't use the Croatian names; I most often use the regular

10 names: January, February, March. So I may make a slip of the tongue. But

11 anyway, I meant the beginning of the sixth month, which is June.

12 Q. Thank you very much, Witness, for the clarification.

13 Can you please, in detail, describe, for the benefit of the Trial

14 Chamber, what happened at the day the interior of the church, as you

15 already said, was demolished.

16 A. In the morning, I was sleeping, and I fell asleep out of

17 exhaustion, because there was shooting until late into the night and there

18 were provocations around the house and there was shooting into the house,

19 into the interior, into the rooms. And we never knew when the house would

20 really be broken into and what would happen to us. In any event, we were

21 living in a great deal of fear and uncertainty. That morning, we heard a

22 lot of noise, and the lady who lived in the house with us heard it. She

23 was a person who was temporarily working in the house. She was like a

24 sort of cook. And also, a priest, my older colleague, who had been my

25 superior up to a couple of months prior to that, but he stayed with me

1 because he too couldn't leave Travnik. And when she woke me up, I jumped

2 up immediately because I heard clearly that something terrible was

3 happening in the church, and because of all the fear that had accumulated,

4 in my mind, I knew that demolishing the church could just be the beginning

5 of the fury of destruction. So that I expected the possibility of them

6 breaking into the house, but there weren't so many sacral objects in the

7 house for destruction. But we, as human beings, were aware of the danger

8 we were in. So that I started dialling various numbers, in panic, hoping

9 that someone would react and come and see what was going on and take

10 control of the situation and stop it.

11 I called up many numbers of the civilian and military authorities,

12 that is, the Muslim authorities, people who were in charge of the town and

13 who were responsible for the town, who had the town under control and who

14 had occupied the town and held it and sealed it. Those moments seemed

15 like eternity, because no one would come, and time was flying. Though

16 some would console me by saying they would come, others said that they

17 couldn't control these things because there was a lot of chaos in town.

18 The people I did call, among others, was the barracks of the Army of

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I don't know who was at the other end of the

20 line. I cannot be specific about those structures. I can't call them by

21 their names because I'm not familiar with their competencies and the

22 responsible groups. But I dialled a lot of numbers, including Plava Voda

23 and the police in the main street. About 200 or 300 metres from my own

24 house, I also called up some friends. I called up a Muslim, a doctor,

25 Izet Kreho, and he promised that he would call back. And out of panic and

1 fear I begged him to do something, that it may be a question of minutes

2 before they would break into the house. And I also told him that they

3 were Mujahedins who were doing this.

4 Q. Witness, may I just interrupt you here for a second. You just

5 informed the Trial Chamber that you, amongst other people, called the ABiH

6 barracks in Travnik. To your recollection, what did you tell them at this

7 point in time?

8 A. To my recollection, I told them what was most important, that they

9 should prevent the destruction of the church, that we were in danger. I

10 spoke of the demolition of the church, that it was being destroyed

11 mercilessly. And I appealed to them. I begged them to come.

12 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber what happened after your

13 phone calls.

14 A. My phone calls took place while I was watching what was going on

15 outside, because the church was just in front of the house. So it is

16 possible to see the entrance to the church from the upper floor. So I had

17 a good view of what was going on in front of the church, and I saw that

18 this was continuing. And so I combined my activities on the phone with

19 thoughts as to an escape route. But I called up people again, because

20 that is all I could do during that time of agony.

21 Q. For how long, Witness, did what you described as the demolishing

22 of the interior of the church, for how long did it go on?

23 A. According to my judgement, and the situation was quite

24 exceptional, in view of what was going on, this went on from about 7.00,

25 or just after 7.00, or just before 7.00, until about 8.30, maybe even up

1 to 9.00. In my judgement, this went on for about an hour and a half or

2 two. And the two soldiers who were in the lower part of the house, who

3 were sleeping in the office premises, I cautioned them of what was going

4 on and I asked them again: "Have you done anything? Do something."

5 However, they first tried to do something, and then one soldier said to

6 me: "They're crazy. We are afraid too." And they locked themselves in,

7 inside. When you enter the house, to the right, there was another door,

8 and they locked themselves in. Because one soldier said that he -- when

9 he went to caution this person, he didn't understand him. He said they

10 were Mujahedins and he kicked him in the stomach and pointed his gun at

11 him. One Mujahedin was keeping guard in front of the church which was

12 being demolished inside.

13 Q. You just mentioned earlier on that your house was close to the

14 church and that you could hear and see clearly. Can you please tell the

15 Trial Chamber what you have heard between 7.00 and about 9.00 on that day.

16 A. I heard some very loud noise, banging and breaking things. That

17 is all that I could hear. Because it was the morning, and usually it was

18 quite quiet in the morning. There were no military activities going on in

19 the distance that one could hear. Also, it was a sunny day, so the view

20 was absolutely clear.

21 Q. And whilst you heard, between 7.00 and about 9.00, whilst you

22 heard what was going on inside the church, did anybody come to help you?

23 A. I was horrified to see that it was not possible to get anyone to

24 come, although it was so nearby. We felt helpless. And when the job had

25 been completed, our fear peaked, and when a soldier headed towards the

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1 house, someone appears to have reacted, because I know that there was a

2 brief but very loud argument, and the Mujahedin who were in the church,

3 thank God, were not allowed to enter the house.

4 After that, when I saw that they wanted to enter the house as

5 well, I didn't really follow, but I realised that they wanted to enter the

6 house, because one of the soldiers who had gone to caution the soldier in

7 front of the church also locked the whole house. And the lady who was in

8 the house was completely distraught. She was hysterical. But now that I

9 look back at those reactions, I know that she said to me that we should

10 flee towards the roof, towards the attic, go to the attic. And then she

11 cried out: "They're going to slit the throat of Vinko," who was my sick

12 colleague, and he was on the first floor, in the private premises. He was

13 in a room, lying exhausted and very sick.

14 And then when I was told that the soldiers had left, one of the

15 people who had stopped them was there, and then I too went downstairs. I

16 greeted those present. We spoke for a while in front of the house and

17 then we entered the house.

18 Q. May I just interrupt you here, Witness. You just said -- you made

19 reference, "When the job had been completed." Can you please inform the

20 Trial Chamber what you mean by saying, "The job had been completed."

21 A. What I mean is when the church was totally demolished inside, the

22 interior of the church, because I was able to see that for myself

23 afterwards. There wasn't a single object that had not been damaged. And

24 in a church such as the Travnik church, there were many, many objects,

25 because, by its position and its age, it had some important valuables.

1 There was an organ, there were sculptures, there were paintings, there

2 were glass windows, and not a single one was left intact. Then there was

3 the internal door, which was also partly in -- glazed. Then the

4 loudspeaker system. Everything, literally everything, was destroyed. The

5 tabernacle, the most important part of a church, was also broken, and

6 sacral objects had been damaged and indented.

7 Q. Witness, can you please inform the Trial Chamber as to when you've

8 seen this damage you've just described?

9 A. I saw the damage after talking to the people who had come to

10 prevent and to see what was going on. These were representatives of the

11 town authorities. These are my assumptions, because, actually, I called

12 up anyone had any position in town to try and prevent it and assist. Now,

13 who actually appeared among all those I called, I can't really say, but I

14 do believe that they were representatives of the town, also

15 representatives of the [indiscernible], and representatives of the

16 Krajisnici, that is, the soldiers in the barracks. They would come in

17 twos and immediately they went inside, and the conversation lasted about

18 half an hour to 45 minutes, and then I too went into the church.

19 Before that, the lady who was with us, she had the courage to go

20 and see immediately. Because while I was talking to them, I asked: "What

21 happened over there?" She just waved her hand, and I can't repeat her

22 words, but she said something to the effect that it was as if the devil

23 himself had entered and destroyed everything inside.

24 Q. Witness, you were earlier on mentioning the damage to the organ.

25 Can you please go into some detail in that respect.

1 A. The organ, in my assessment, I just couldn't believe that such

2 damage could be done so quickly, because to destroy an organ, I thought

3 would take more time. I couldn't analyse it, because I left Travnik a

4 couple of days or maybe a week later. So I could simply cast a glance at

5 the organ, and I was astonished that all the organ parts had been

6 indented, broken, and the damage was quite considerable to look at. It

7 was a catastrophe regarding the organ. But there was so much damage that

8 one could hardly walk.

9 Q. You also mentioned that sculptures and paintings were damaged.

10 Can you please in some more detail describe the damage to the sculptures

11 and paintings.

12 A. Paintings and sculptures were simply destroyed, so that many

13 paintings were -- had holes in them. The sculptures had their heads or

14 arms broken off, or the faces destroyed, so they were unrecognisable and

15 they couldn't be used. As I was looking at things then, I thought that it

16 would -- not a single of those objects could be used again.

17 Q. What about the windows?

18 A. The windows were also partly -- I can't remember the details. I

19 just have a memory of the horror. But I can't say whether one or maybe

20 two remained whole. But anyway, the windows were damaged.

21 Q. Witness, did there come a time when you informed representatives

22 of the ABiH in Travnik about the damage to the church in Travnik you just

23 described?

24 A. Yes. And in view of my position, I couldn't move freely or write

25 or come and go. But a representative of the Army of Bosnia and

1 Herzegovina, representatives of the Krajisnici, came to see me,

2 representatives of the civilian authorities too. And it was so obvious

3 for them that there was no need for me to inform them about it or to see

4 what they thought about it. Their questions were mostly directed to me as

5 to what should be done with me, because the only thing that remained for

6 the Croats in Travnik, where they used to come to before the conflict, had

7 now been destroyed. So there was no chance for me to invite people to

8 come to the church and to hold any kind of service there, especially as I

9 realised immediately that the church had been desecrated and destroyed.

10 So what I wanted to do was to inform the public, or at least for my bishop

11 to be informed, to know that the church had been damaged and the church

12 should again be renovated so as to be able to be used again as a church.

13 So regarding the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Cuskic was

14 present that morning. I know that full well, that he was there.

15 Q. And did you talk to Mr. Cuskic, whom you earlier on described

16 today as an assistant to Mr. Alagic, the commander of the Krajisnici? Did

17 you talk to him?

18 A. Yes, I did. We spoke to each other. I don't remember everything

19 that was said. I know that he expressed his dissatisfaction when he asked

20 who had done that. And this was done in the presence of everyone. He was

21 told that it was the Mujahedin. He was told that that was clear, and the

22 troops who were in the house were well aware of this fact. And he reacted

23 in a very emotional way, in a positive way, in relation to the damage done

24 to the building. He said that those people should be removed, that they

25 should be killed, that they should be prevented from doing such things in

1 the town. What he said was sincere, and one could feel that he wasn't

2 satisfied with what had happened. That was my impression. Others didn't

3 seem very sorry about this. I have to say that no one told me, as the

4 parish priest, that they felt regret for what had happened. No one

5 apologised, neither at the time nor in the following few days. And even

6 Cuskic had reacted as he had, didn't say that he was sorry about what had

7 happened. He didn't go into the reasons for why this had happened. I

8 don't know how to describe his reaction, but, on the one hand, the

9 reaction was negative; but on the other hand, I didn't feel that he or the

10 BH army thought that much damage had been done when this act was

11 committed. It didn't seem as if they thought that a lot of evil had been

12 committed. But the civil protection said that they wanted to organise the

13 people, to clean up. And then the lady in our house said that they would

14 do it. She said that she didn't want Muslims to go into the church. She

15 said that they could clean everything up and sort everything out.

16 Q. Witness, if I just may interrupt you here for a follow-up

17 question. Mr. Cuskic, did he actually see the damage? Was he led inside

18 the church?

19 A. I didn't take anyone inside. One could say that they took me

20 inside. I was no longer in the position of a host. I was no longer a

21 sovereign and free man who could freely express his positions, given that

22 he was aware of what had happened and how delicate the situation was. I

23 didn't comment on this, and I really didn't want to express an explicit

24 opinion on the matter. But I do know that Cuskic must have gone in,

25 because the church isn't two kilometres away. It's only ten metres from

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1 the house. So I can't really know who was in the group, because they

2 would go in and come out. I stayed on in some parts of the church itself

3 and examined the state it was in.

4 Q. You were just saying, Witness, that, "They took me inside." Whom

5 are you referring to by saying "they"?

6 A. I'm referring to people who had taken me in. We went in together.

7 It's not as if there was a consensus, an agreement. It's not as if we had

8 agreed to have a look. As we were speaking to each other, some people

9 went in, examined the state. It's not far away. They would comment on

10 what they had seen, and after I had seen the last guests off, after we had

11 gone outside, then I set off in the direction of the church. I don't know

12 exactly who was with me. There was this lady who was already in the

13 church. She had a look at the church. Then she returned to the house

14 again, then went out again.

15 Q. Witness, you earlier on informed the Trial Chamber that Mr. Alagic

16 was in charge of the ABiH unit in the Travnik Barracks. Did there come a

17 time, Witness, when you talked to Mr. Alagic about the devastation of the

18 interior of the church?

19 A. I had contact with Mr. Alagic in order to obtain permission to

20 leave Travnik. I didn't say that it was a matter of leaving Travnik. I

21 said it was a matter of contacting Croats in Novi Travnik, on the other

22 side. And military action was undertaken on that side too. I continued

23 to insist on this, and I always asked for someone in a position of

24 responsibility who might make this possible for me. I saw that things

25 were becoming even more tense, and on the basis of my experience, I saw

1 that they couldn't make the situation easier for me. My intention was

2 simply to survive and inform others about the situation, because I didn't

3 have any contact with the press, with journalists. I wanted the situation

4 to be examined, but they wanted this to be used for their own objectives.

5 My wishes weren't listened to. I had contact with Alagic in relation to

6 this matter, and the discussions we had related to the church, but he

7 didn't give any importance to what had happened in the church. And Asim

8 Gradincic, my mentor, who monitored my duties, my contacts, when I asked

9 him who could give me permission, who could make this possible for me, he

10 said that only Mr. Alagic was in a position to give me such permission.

11 So I just visited Cuskic and Alagic on one occasion. Alagic didn't

12 comment on the church. Cuskic touched on the matter. If Alagic said

13 anything about it, I don't remember that. But he must have been aware of

14 what had happened. I know that he didn't pay any attention to this at

15 all. He didn't take it into account and he didn't ask me about the

16 situation. I also didn't want to say anything much about it. I knew the

17 matter was very delicate, and I didn't want to tell him what I felt,

18 because I knew they wouldn't like it, and I knew that the issue was very

19 sensitive.

20 Q. For clarification, Witness: When, to your recollection, or how

21 many days after the interior of the church was demolished, when did you

22 talk to Mr. Alagic about it?

23 A. At that time, during those days or weeks, I was in such a state

24 that I couldn't really tell you about the days or dates when this

25 happened. I know that it was shortly afterwards, but I couldn't say

1 whether it was two or three days later. It's very difficult for me to

2 remember this now.

3 Q. Would it be fair to say, Witness, that it was a matter of days

4 rather than a matter of weeks or months?

5 A. It was certainly after several days. I can state that for

6 certain. It wasn't more than one week later.

7 Q. Earlier on today, Witness, you were mentioning that you wanted to

8 get your bishop to know about the demolishment of the church in Travnik.

9 Did there come a time when your bishop got to know about it?

10 A. I was able to speak to the bishop in the evening, at about 11.00.

11 I was taken to the premises where they had the necessary technical

12 equipment, and the conversation was about what had happened. I informed

13 him about what had happened. I asked him whether he would be in a

14 position to visit Travnik or do something to prevent civilians from being

15 killed in Travnik. I said that the church was no longer a holy building

16 and that it couldn't be used as such. He said that he would visit the

17 Travnik [as interpreted] as soon as possible, given that he was familiar

18 with the situation there. But the date he mentioned was problematic; the

19 date was postponed. On the day he was supposed to come and visit us, the

20 bishopric building in Sarajevo was shelled, which made it impossible for

21 him to come on the day that he had mentioned. He came later, perhaps on

22 the 19th or 20th, something like that.

23 Q. Once -- or when the bishop from Sarajevo came to Travnik, did the

24 bishop speak to anybody from the ABiH?

25 A. He came to the parish flat where I lived. Representatives of the

1 town authorities and of the military authorities appeared there. I was

2 present. A colleague of mine was present who had also been detained in

3 the town, in the monastery. Everyone who was affected by this, everyone

4 who was responsible for the events, everyone who had a role of some kind

5 in the town, appeared. Representatives of the Muslim religious community

6 were also present there.

7 Q. Which military authorities are you referring to who were present

8 at this meeting?

9 A. I'm referring to the leaders of Krajina, from -- the troops from

10 the barracks, and I'm also referring to other military formations in the

11 town, perhaps the police as well, and civilian forces.

12 Q. Was the issue of the demolishing of the interior of the church in

13 Travnik, was it discussed?

14 A. Yes, it was. Many events were discussed, and the fact that the

15 civilians were at risk. There was also an exodus from that area. But in

16 addition to these matters, the church was also mentioned, and the cardinal

17 quite clearly condemned this and showed respect for the people who were

18 present there, but he condemned this act of barbarism, and the others

19 present agreed with this assessment. So, on the one hand, the situation

20 was tense, but, on the other, positions were freely expressed, and the act

21 was condemned by both sides, something to that effect.

22 Q. Witness, you earlier on today mentioned that you left Travnik.

23 Can you please, very briefly, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber,

24 describe the circumstances under which you left Travnik.

25 A. When my bishop visited Travnik, that was the day on which I was

1 released and when I managed to get out of that terrible situation. I took

2 advantage of his presence in the house to speak to him briefly, in person,

3 and I asked him if I could go to Novi Travnik with him. I didn't tell him

4 that I had to leave the entire area. My purpose was simply to move away,

5 move out of the house and to escape from the danger I felt. I told him

6 that it was necessary for me to leave and that if anything was to be done

7 in the field, the other side had to be contacted. He said: "I'm not

8 responsible for this. I can't ask anyone. I can't do anything." But he

9 said: "Come with me, and if it's possible, you'll get into the personnel

10 carrier, and if there's room, you can go with us."

11 I didn't tell him about everything. It wasn't until we got to

12 Novi Travnik that I told him what was at stake, and I'm glad that he

13 didn't ask me about all the details. And in some way, he understood what

14 was at stake, in spite of the fact that he hadn't understood everything.

15 He didn't know that I was in a very difficult situation. And I left

16 Travnik, accompanied by the bishop and his secretary. There were others

17 who were escorting him, representatives from the town, military

18 representatives. I remember going to the vehicle, and a lot of people

19 were standing around. Cuskic was there, and there were some others too.

20 I managed to get through to him, and my intention was to enter the vehicle

21 after he had got in. I wanted to get out of the town, because I felt that

22 the situation was critical, and I thought that if I didn't take advantage

23 of that situation, I wouldn't survive.

24 So I got into the vehicle and I was glad that he hadn't been

25 stopped, because, given all the manipulation, I wasn't able to get away

1 from Travnik, and those in positions of responsibility didn't do anything

2 and didn't try to do anything. Asking them to do something was all to no

3 avail.

4 Q. Witness, after you left Travnik, did you ever go back to Travnik

5 to serve in the Travnik parish?

6 A. Never again.

7 Q. What did you do, and if you could please briefly summarise it,

8 after you left Travnik?

9 A. When I got out of Travnik, I was in Novi Travnik. That was an

10 enclave. Nova Bila, Vitez, Busovaca. I stayed there until the beginning

11 of November. In November, I think that I managed to get out of that

12 enclave. Up until that time, I was in a place called Rankovici, near

13 Novi Travnik, on the side under Croatian control. My life there was --

14 well, I was forced to stay there. You couldn't go further on. And while

15 I was there, I helped that colleague of mine, and I also had a lot of

16 contact with my people, because there were a lot of refugees from Travnik

17 who were there on the other side.

18 Q. And afterwards, what did you do?

19 A. When I got out, by helicopter, from Herzegovina, I ended up in

20 Split. From Split, I went to Zagreb. In Split, I visited many refugees

21 from Travnik, friends and acquaintances. They were very happy to see that

22 I had survived. Some of them had been misinformed. I don't know where

23 they had obtained their information from. According to some of the

24 information they had been given, I had lost my mind. Apparently something

25 had happened to me in Travnik, because the situation was so bad.

1 Fortunately, that wasn't true. Later I went to our office for refugees,

2 the bishopric office in Zagreb, and as I had left without any resources,

3 without any possessions, I didn't have any clothes, apart from the ones

4 that I was wearing -- well, in Zagreb, I had the possibility of spending

5 some time in a house that the bishopric had in Zagreb, and if I felt

6 capable of taking charge of one of the refugee centres, I was given this

7 possibility. There were many such centres in Croatia at the time. I

8 accepted such duties in a Croatian refugee centre near Ogulin. I spent

9 two years there. And then I was in Split again. And my duties became

10 normal, in a certain sense. I wasn't involved in my own bishopric, but

11 with the permission of my bishopric, I worked in other bishoprics. I

12 spent one year in Italy, and now I've spent five or six years in Germany.

13 Q. Witness, to your knowledge, has the damage done to the church in

14 Travnik, has it been repaired?

15 A. My brother, my colleague, who became a priest in 1996 or 1997, he

16 was in Zenica and then in the area of Travnik, where he worked as a

17 priest. When I visited him, I passed through Travnik on a number of

18 occasions. Sometimes I would stay in Novi Travnik for a while, and I

19 would visit people who knew me and who knew what I had been through. Then

20 on one occasion, I went into that church. I looked around. And arriving

21 in that town, it had such an effect on me that I wanted to get away very

22 quickly. What I saw in that church was a pleasant surprise. The

23 colleague who took over after me was quite successful in his attempts to

24 make the building look good on the outside. Some of the sculptures hadn't

25 exactly been repaired, but let's say the patron saint, the head of the

1 patron saint I think had been put back on the sculpture. But it hadn't

2 exactly been replaced. And there were many other things. Certain

3 things -- many things couldn't be repaired because they had been

4 destroyed. So I briefly had a look at the church, and I noticed that what

5 could be repaired had been repaired, for example, ordinary windows,

6 whereas other things, things that were difficult to repair, hadn't been

7 repaired, and I don't think that they've been repaired to this day.

8 Q. Witness, how do you feel today about the demolition of the

9 interior of the church, of the Travnik church?

10 A. When I come up close, well, then I feel as if I've been returned

11 to that situation and this brings tears to my eyes. It creates a feeling

12 of helplessness, of humiliation. I become another person. Because this

13 was very painful for me, especially this very insecure situation. The

14 lack of freedom also had a significant effect on me. So if I go back to

15 that time, to what I felt at the time, it's as if you are -- it's as if

16 you are putting someone back into a frying pan and you have this person

17 begging others to release him from this torture.

18 Since 15 years have passed since then, I have created perhaps an

19 internal mechanism which allows me to speak about this without feeling

20 very emotional. But when I have to relive all these experiences, I feel

21 threatened, insecure, and I must say that at the time, I just wanted

22 someone to find out that this had to be prevented. But I just wanted to

23 survive. That was my only objective. I saw what the situation was, it

24 was critical, and luckily, I was able to get out of the town with the

25 bishop.

1 I would just like to add that I don't blame any one person. I

2 don't feel that I need compensation of some kind. I don't feel that there

3 is someone who is responsible as an individual for what happened. I know

4 that this was a result of the war. But I'm simply glad that I managed to

5 survive. At the time, I felt no hatred either, but I was angry. I was

6 angry because nothing could be done, and I was angry because people were

7 humiliated in such a calculating and unscrupulous way.

8 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ivkic.

9 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, this concludes the

10 examination-in-chief.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

12 I turn now to Defence counsel to give them the floor.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ivkic.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. I'm Edina Residovic.

18 A. I know that.

19 Q. And I represent General Enver Hadzihasanovic. I will be asking

20 you some questions in connection with your testimony and in connection

21 with the fact that, at the time of the events, you were a respected

22 personality in the town of Travnik.

23 You said that you completed studies of theology in 1989 in

24 Sarajevo and that you became a priest; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. After that, as you told my learned friend from the Prosecution,

2 you were sent to serve in the Travnik bishopric and you started serving in

3 the Church of St. John the Baptist in Travnik; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At the time, and for many years and centuries before that, Travnik

6 was inhabited by a mixture, an ethnically mixed population: Serbs,

7 Croats, and Muslims. But just before the war, the Muslims were in the

8 majority; is that right?

9 A. Yes, there were more of them.

10 Q. Relations between ethnicities and people of different faiths in

11 Travnik were traditionally good?

12 A. In my time, very good.

13 Q. You were born in the village of Blazevac, next to Gradacac, in

14 Bosnia, one could say Northern Bosnia?

15 A. North-eastern Bosnia, yes.

16 Q. And where you were born, too, relations between ethnicities and

17 faiths were traditionally good; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. As a Bosnian priest, you believed that you should do everything in

20 your power for all peoples to remain in their homes and for their church

21 or mosque to be the place where they would gather; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As you have already said - and this is something this Trial

24 Chamber is well aware of - in April 1992, immediately after the

25 proclamation of independence, the Yugoslav People's Army attacked Bosnia

1 and the Serb forces; is that true?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The town of Travnik, where you served, was shelled from Mount

4 Vlasic in the first months following the attack on Bosnia; is that right?

5 A. I think so. I'm afraid I'm not quite sure about the chronology.

6 I can't give you the exact dates where it started first.

7 Q. However, as a citizen of Travnik, you certainly know that Serb

8 forces captured the Komar pass and the tops of Mount Vlasic, and that they

9 had come to a close distance, a dangerous distance, from Travnik. They

10 were halted at Turbe, in fact, which is about 12 kilometres away from

11 Travnik; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Already in the course of 1992, several dozen thousand refugees

14 arrived in Travnik, first from Krajina, who had been expelled from there

15 by the Serb forces; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. A fresh wave of refugees arrived in Travnik at the end of 1992,

18 when the town of Jajce fell to the Serb forces; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The arrival of such large numbers of refugees to Travnik, which

21 was not such a large city, created many problems regarding accommodation

22 and food and relations in the town itself; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. However, both the civilian and military authorities, as well as

25 the charitable organisations of the Croatian and Muslim peoples, did

1 everything they could to alleviate the difficulties; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. As you stated earlier on, you noticed that there was tension

4 between the two peoples and between members of the HVO and the BH army

5 early in the spring of 1993; is that right?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Actually, in that period of time, there were both units of the

8 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in town, as well as units of the HVO; is

9 that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You said that units of the army, the Krajisnici, as you call them,

12 were quartered in the former barracks in Travnik; is that right?

13 A. That is my own knowledge and experience.

14 Q. It may be a slip, but it is a barracks that was called after hero

15 Petar Mecava and not Marshal Tito. Would you agree with me that this may

16 have been a mix-up?

17 A. You may be right. I knew it as the Marshal Tito Barracks, but I

18 am not sure. I may be wrong. Maybe I have been misinformed. I don't

19 know how that name stuck in my mind.

20 Q. Perhaps because we have such a barracks in Sarajevo.

21 A. Perhaps.

22 Q. Certainly, as an important figure in the life of particularly the

23 Croatian people in Travnik, you know that on the 8th of April there was a

24 large meeting of all leaders of the HDZ and the HVO, of the so-called

25 Herceg-Bosna. Are you aware of that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Two days prior to that, reinforced police units of the HVO had

3 arrived in Travnik. Do you know that?

4 A. I do not.

5 Q. This meeting that was also attended by Dario Kordic, as the

6 vice-president of the HVO in Herceg-Bosna, as well as commanders from the

7 whole area, there was a discussion on the expedited implementation of the

8 Vance-Owen Plan, which still hadn't been signed. Do you know that?

9 A. At the time, I didn't have much occasion to analyse the political

10 events. I was extremely active with regard to Caritas activities and the

11 refugees. So I believe what you say, but I cannot comment with any

12 reliability.

13 Q. I think that you know that on that day, on the 8th of April,

14 Croatian flags were hoisted on important buildings and that, in view of

15 the importance of the meeting and the preparations of a part of the

16 population to celebrate Easter, and another part of the population who was

17 celebrating the 10th of April as the independence day of Croatia, that

18 this was seen as a provocation by a certain section of the population.

19 A. I don't know all those things because, simply, I didn't perceive

20 them. I only realised what happened when things happened, and I wondered

21 why.

22 Q. However, you knew that something happened, that certain members of

23 the army took down the flags and set fire to them and that the HVO killed

24 two to three soldiers of the BH army? You knew that fact?

25 A. Yes, I did.

1 Q. This incident actually heightened tensions which had already

2 started increasing between the two ethnic groups in the town of Travnik;

3 is that right?

4 A. Certainly, but I don't know the circumstances behind that

5 incident, why it occurred and what preceded it and the circumstances

6 around it, so I can't say much about that. I just am aware of the

7 incident because it occurred close to the church.

8 Q. After that, the Croatian Defence Council started, by means of

9 propaganda, and in practice, to instigate the population, to encourage

10 them to leave should a conflict break out with the Army of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina, and you, as a Bosnian priest, could not agree with that?

12 A. What you just last said is correct, that, as a priest, I did not

13 have officially, nor personally, as I identified with my people and the

14 church leadership, which advocated full support for people to remain in

15 their homes.

16 Q. That brings me to my next question. A cardinal today, and in

17 those days, the Catholic bishop for Bosnia, Mr. Puljic, Reverend Puljic,

18 clearly called on the Croatian people to stay in their homes and

19 instructed the clergy to assist their people to remain; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. However, in spite of that, the HVO leadership, or of the HDZ - I

22 can't go into that now, but you may know this - took steps for the HVO to

23 move out of the centre of town and to take up positions at Hajdarove

24 Njive, Bukovica, Mjenica [phoen], heights from which the town could be

25 controlled; is that right?

1 A. I do know that they withdrew, but I do not wish nor can I judge

2 what they wanted to achieve and whether they wanted to do so

3 intentionally. I don't wish to talk about those things. Those are

4 military things that don't concern me, political and military.

5 Q. However, you certainly knew that they withdrew to Dolac,

6 south-east of Travnik, Radica Brdo to west of Travnik, Kalibunar and other

7 locations that I have mentioned. Do you know that?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. You also certainly know that the HVO, upon leaving Travnik and

10 going towards Guca Gora and Vitez, and in Guca Gora itself, set up

11 checkpoints through which it was impossible to pass without permission of

12 the HVO, and it was not possible to go from Travnik to Zenica. Do you

13 know that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. You also know that from those checkpoints, both soldiers and

16 civilians were turned back, sometimes even sick people who needed to go

17 from the Travnik hospital to the hospital in Zenica?

18 A. Now, how you qualify those checkpoints, I don't know, nor can I

19 judge about them.

20 Q. It was heard in town, and you probably are aware of the fact, that

21 on the 1st of June, 1993, the commander, Mehmed Alagic, and his escort

22 were stopped at the checkpoint and disarmed.

23 A. I don't know that, but very hazily, but I really didn't make an

24 effort to register these things, nor did I give these things any thought.

25 If there was an incident, I would hear about it, and that's all. It seems

1 to me that far back in my mind, something to that effect was rumoured.

2 Q. Regarding events and relations in Travnik, you were aware of the

3 fact that open armed conflicts were going on in the Lasva Valley between

4 the army and the HVO, and this certainly affected the situation and the

5 relations in Travnik itself, and this contributed to the heightening of

6 tensions. What I mean is that you all knew that in the spring of 1993, in

7 the Lasva Valley and around Novi Travnik, there was heavy fighting between

8 the army and the HVO. Were you aware of those facts, and did they have a

9 negative impact on relations among people in Travnik?

10 A. I have to say that what was going on outside Travnik, I knew

11 little about those things. I knew that there were some unfortunate

12 conflicts, but I didn't make any judgement of what the policies were or

13 who was the aggressor, who was attacking who, who was provoking who. I

14 simply didn't speculate about those things. I had so much to do in town

15 itself that I kept wondering what would happen to it, as all the military

16 forces of the Croatian people had left and that the civilians were in

17 great fear and that many were leaving the town and coming back again.

18 They would spend a day there and leave overnight, or something like that.

19 And also those who could, left the town.

20 Q. Precisely because of the position you held and the job you did, I

21 would never ask you to pass judgement on events. I'm just asking you

22 whether you were familiar with these facts and whether you knew that they

23 had a negative impact on the mood of people in town itself.

24 A. Yes, I did know that they impacted the atmosphere in town. I knew

25 that.

1 Q. Also as a priest, you knew that in the spring of 1993, in April

2 1993 -- let me not qualify it, but an HVO attacked Ahmici entailing many

3 victims and the destruction of many religious buildings of the Islamic

4 faith, which also could have had negative consequences regarding the town

5 of Travnik itself. Were you aware of those facts?

6 A. I claim with full responsibility that I did not. I was so

7 preoccupied with other activities. I heard of something subsequently, but

8 at the time, and regarding the intensity of the events, I was not aware of

9 it.

10 Q. However, it is quite possible, and I'm asking you whether you knew

11 that the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, through practical acts and

12 through orders, endeavoured to prevent any kind of retaliation and to

13 protect Catholic religious buildings and Catholic priests issuing prior

14 orders and especially orders following armed conflicts. Are you aware of

15 that?

16 A. I know nothing about any such order. After the conflict, no piece

17 of paper could help me. I was just wondering what would happen to me.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for identification

19 purposes, I would like to show the witness two orders issued by the

20 3rd Corps, and this will lead to some additional questions of mine.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could a copy of these two orders

23 be shown to the witness, and both documents were received by the Defence

24 from the Prosecutor within the framework of the Sarajevo collection of

25 documents.

1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President --

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.

3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I didn't interrupt all the time.

4 Also, the witness always said basically: "I don't know." But this time,

5 he was asked by my learned friend about orders, and the witness said: "I

6 know nothing about any such order. After the conflict, no piece of paper

7 could help me." I really have my doubts as to whether Defence should be

8 allowed to show the witness orders after he very, very clearly stated that

9 he just doesn't know about such orders.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Go ahead and ask

11 your question.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I've shown this

13 document for the witness to identify, and I just want to refresh the

14 witness's memory.

15 Q. Could you have a look at this order dated the 10th of June, issued

16 after the armed conflict in Travnik. And have a look at item 3.

17 A. Do I have to comment on this?

18 Q. I would just like to ask you whether you are aware of the fact

19 that the army took steps to protect buildings, and you personally, as a

20 religious official.

21 A. I believe that that is the case, but I have never seen this

22 document before. I've never had the opportunity of reading it.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness has

24 answered my question. He has told us what he was aware of, and I didn't

25 think that I could tender this document into evidence through this

1 witness. But given the relevance of the document and the fact that the

2 witness doesn't contest the document and the further questions will have

3 to do with the actual situation the witness was in, for these reasons, I

4 suggest that these documents be marked for identification.

5 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, in this instance, the

6 Prosecution objects to even mark the document for identification. The

7 witness said: "I have never seen this order." He just doesn't know. If

8 this is allowed to continue, each party, in future, may show any document

9 to a witness. The witness says: "I've never seen the document. I don't

10 know about," but we mark it for identification. This procedure appears to

11 be highly problematic, and the Prosecution objects against marking this

12 document for identification.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The second document,

14 we'll decide about this in a minute, after the break. Ask the question

15 concerning the second document.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Ivkic, have you had a look at the second document, dated

18 the 19th?

19 A. I'm looking at it now.

20 Q. This document clearly shows that after the events that had

21 happened, the command repeated its previous orders about protecting

22 private and public buildings and property. The document contains a date,

23 subsequently to the time when you left Travnik. But my question is: Are

24 you aware of the fact that members of the army attempted to protect

25 property and prevent damage from being done? In fact, they asked for all

1 those involved in such acts to be punished. It was forbidden to commit

2 such acts. Are you aware of such steps having been taken?

3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President --

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Was this part of your experience while you were in Travnik?

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf.

7 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, two objections. If Your Honours

8 please have a look at the question. The question starts with a comment.

9 This is certainly not a question to the witness. This appears to be

10 highly problematic. My learned friend from the Defence herself is making

11 reference to the fact that this document refers to a time after the

12 witness had left Travnik. It's very difficult to understand the purpose

13 and how the witness can -- the purpose of showing this document to the

14 witness, the relevance, and how the witness may be able to comment on the

15 document.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the floor.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I only showed the

18 witness the document to remind the witness of what he personally knew

19 about how the army behaved, and my question was clear. My question was:

20 Were you a witness of the fact that members of the army took steps to

21 protect property, and they attempted to punish the perpetrators of such

22 acts?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not in a position to be an

24 eyewitness of such events. I couldn't perform my duties as a priest. I

25 wasn't free to move around after everything had escalated. All I could

1 observe was that shops were broken into and nothing was done. I could

2 also see the Mujahedin driving away in cars. They would seize cars by

3 force. They had weapons, not just rifles, which they would mount on cars.

4 They would demonstrate, they would parade around with flags. I believe

5 that the army took such steps, in official terms, but in practical terms,

6 on the basis of what I could see in the city I moved around in -- well, I

7 didn't have the experience that you have described. Because in the centre

8 of the town, they would break into places, destroy facilities, and if a

9 car is stolen, then property isn't protected. And if we are threatened,

10 if people break into houses without warrants of any kind, then the

11 situation is very insecure. And I would also like to point out that I was

12 given a piece of paper, a small piece of paper, about this size, and

13 perhaps it was Hadzihasanovic who wrote these things down. I couldn't say

14 exactly who did this, because I was in a very difficult situation. But

15 the note said that Mr. Mirko Ivkic is protected by Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 I won't cover this up, but given my experiences, I would claim that the

17 contrary was in fact the case.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, having heard this

19 explanation, given that these documents are important and will be referred

20 to by the Defence in the course of the proceedings, and as they relate to

21 command responsibility, I also suggest that these documents be marked for

22 identification.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I've seen

24 these documents.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf.

1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, the Prosecution again objects marking

2 this document for identification. The witness has said: "I've never seen

3 the document." Answering the question of my learned friend, the witness

4 has said: It's to the contrary. Again, the Prosecution considers this

5 manner to mark documents for identification as being very problematic,

6 since it would result in a situation that any party can show any document

7 to a witness, the witness may say whatever he or she wants, and the

8 document is then marked for identification. That appears to be extremely

9 problematic, and the Prosecution, for that reason, objects against marking

10 this document for identification.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will have our

12 break now and we will resume at five to 1.00 and inform you of our

13 decision.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will resume now.

17 As far as the request to tender the documents into evidence is concerned,

18 documents of the -- dated the 19th of June, 1993, and another document

19 dated the 19th of June, 1993, which had to do with Article 3, concerns the

20 protection of religious buildings. The Trial Chamber has decided to mark

21 these documents for identification.

22 The Trial Chamber would like to point out to both parties that

23 when we decide to mark a document for identification, this means that the

24 document is on standby. It isn't a document that has been admitted into

25 evidence at this stage. It can only be admitted into evidence if this

1 document is tendered through another witness, or if the document is

2 supported by other elements. So when we say that a document has been

3 marked for identification, this means that, in legal terms, the document

4 has not been admitted into evidence, but it is marked for identification

5 just to keep track of a document which we think might have relevance.

6 For this reason, we mark documents for identification. But when

7 the Trial Chamber says that a document has been marked for identification,

8 this isn't tantamount to admitting it into evidence. I want this to be

9 absolutely clear. A document marked for identification has not yet been

10 admitted into evidence.

11 We will decide about the fate of the document in question at a

12 later date. A document admitted into evidence has to be supported,

13 confirmed by other witness or by other information, by other elements.

14 Having said that, Mr. Registrar, could we have a number for this

15 document which will be marked for identification. Could we have a standby

16 number for this document.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the order dated 10th of June, 1993

18 gets the Exhibit number DH64, marked for identification. Its English

19 translation gets the Exhibit number DH64/E, marked for identification.

20 Then the order dated 19th of June, 1993 gets the Exhibit number

21 DH65, marked for identification; and its English translation gets the

22 Exhibit number DH65/E, marked for identification.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the moment, we have some

24 documents that have been marked for identification. Once the Prosecution

25 has concluded its case, or once the Defence has concluded its case, we'll

1 decide about the fate of the other documents on standby. We'll have a

2 special hearing to discuss this matter, and if other elements don't

3 support these documents, these documents will be rejected. So when we say

4 that a document has been marked for identification - and I want this to be

5 absolutely clear - it only means that we are giving the document a number,

6 but this document has not been admitted into evidence. Documents admitted

7 into evidence will be given a definitive exhibit number. So in each such

8 occasion, as you have observed, I ask the registrar to provide us with a

9 definitive exhibit number. If a document is marked for identification, it

10 hadn't yet been admitted into evidence. I hope that the Prosecution has

11 understood what I have said, in order to make sure that there is nothing

12 ambiguous.

13 The Defence may proceed.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. Mr. Ivkic, I hope that you have had the chance to rest. Can we

16 continue now? In the course of the examination-in-chief, you said that

17 the escalation of the conflict started at the beginning of June, and I

18 would like to ask you whether it would be correct to say that the conflict

19 lasted for a number of days and finished at the end of the first week in

20 June in 1993. Is that correct? The armed conflict.

21 A. The armed conflict did not come to an end in the first week.

22 Q. Would it be correct to say that, together with HVO units which

23 were withdrawing from Travnik, some of the Croatian population from the

24 town of Travnik also withdrew; they withdrew together? Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, it's correct. In fact, they withdrew in accordance with an

1 already adopted plan for evacuation and the request that they should leave

2 the area in which there was a conflict with the army.

3 Q. And you, as a man and a priest, objected to this; is that correct?

4 A. I'm sorry. I wouldn't want to give you the wrong answer to the

5 question. It's not quite clear to me.

6 Q. I will ask you two questions. First of all, as a priest and as a

7 Bosnian --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. As I said, you should

10 proceed question by question. Otherwise, the witness might become

11 confused. So split the question up into two questions, and this will

12 enable everyone to find their bearings. Otherwise, if the witness says

13 yes or no, we're not sure which part of the question the witness is

14 answering.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will rephrase the

16 question and divide it into two parts to make things absolutely clear.

17 Q. Would it be correct to say that you, as a Bosniak, as a Croatian

18 Bosnian and as a priest, objected to people leaving their homes and their

19 town? You did not agree with this; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. However, under the influence of propaganda and you already -- and

22 the plan that had been agreed on to evacuate the town, the people withdrew

23 with the army; is that correct?

24 A. I don't believe I can say that this was the influence of

25 propaganda. I know that when I made a statement on the radio, this is

1 what I had to say and it's not something that I believed in. Because when

2 the people flee, then they're fleeing from their homes. It can't be the

3 result of propaganda. Arms must be used if people are fleeing.

4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that some of the population fled from

5 the town, from the area that was under the control of the Serbian forces?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were you aware of the fact that at the time, the HVO was already

8 cooperating with the Serbian forces in situations when there was a

9 conflict with the BH army?

10 A. No, I wasn't aware of that. I later heard that there was no other

11 possible solution. They had to establish peace with the other side, with

12 the former common enemy, so to speak.

13 Q. However, according to your testimony before this Court, you

14 personally remained in the parish office with the priest Vinko Vidakovic,

15 and the cook Finka Rajic; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it's correct. I did remain there.

17 Q. Also, as you testified earlier on, you were active in the Caritas

18 office in distributing aid to refugees, not just Croats, but also

19 Bosniaks; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In addition to you in the Caritas office, there was Ivan Petric,

22 Zvonko Kukric, Dzevko Gaca [phoen], and Franjo Mikic; is that right?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. During the armed conflict, there was a high degree of chaos in

25 town; is that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. During the first days of the armed conflict, a soldier came to

3 your office who asked you to get in touch with Commander Leutar, who was

4 at Radica Brdo because his family was there and he asked you to try and

5 intervene on his behalf for the family to be protected; is that right?

6 A. That was on the second day, if I'm not mistaken. That is at the

7 very beginning, when there was the fiercest clash between the armed

8 forces.

9 Q. As a man and as a priest you thought you should try and help this

10 soldier?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it true that at the time of these conflicts, several soldiers

13 entered the parish office to search it and to check whether there were any

14 weapons in the office; is that right?

15 A. Yes, it is. When they came to ask, not really to ask, but this

16 was conditioned. Our aid to them was conditioned by adequate treatment of

17 us. That is when they searched the premises.

18 Q. They didn't find the weapons, but they didn't take anything from

19 the parish office or the church?

20 A. They didn't enter the church on that occasion. However, they

21 didn't take anything from the parish building except I think there was a

22 pair of binoculars, a civilian pair of binoculars of my priest in his

23 room, and if I recollect well, it was taken away.

24 Q. When, in such a chaotic situation, a group of soldiers entered

25 Caritas and they wanted to seize a part of the foodstuffs that were stored

1 there, they listed those supplies and you signed it as being a donation,

2 because in the circumstances, you felt that it would be the best thing to

3 do rather than to resist; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In that period of time, both the civilian and military

6 authorities, through the public media, called on Croats to stay in their

7 homes and to return to their homes. Did you hear those calls?

8 A. In addition to such calls, if I registered them correctly, there

9 were actually announcements calling on the Croats to report and to come to

10 a collection point, those of them who were still in town, and to be

11 engaged for some purposes. I assume that this was manipulation, because I

12 once was given one information, and another time, another. They were

13 intended to be organised for some sort of labour. There were rumours of

14 large numbers of dead. And I refused that. They asked me to call on the

15 people to come out of their houses and to be engaged for work.

16 Q. Is it true, Mr. Ivkic, that in those first days, or the first week

17 of the month of June, you did contact representatives of the civilian

18 authorities in Travnik and that one of them told you on that occasion that

19 it would be a good idea for you to make a speech on the media?

20 A. As my house was under a blockade and the general blockade outside,

21 I couldn't act at all. When the situation calmed down a little and when

22 they contacted me, I heard of the drama going on behind Ovcarevo, in the

23 area toward the Serbs, that a large number of people had gathered there

24 and that they were about to move towards Serb positions, where they would

25 be taken in by the Serbs. And this disturbed me, and I wanted to go there

1 and get in touch with those people.

2 Q. We'll come to that later. But I'm now asking you the following:

3 When things calmed down a little in Travnik, did you communicate with

4 representatives of the civilian authorities in Travnik, and did they, for

5 the purpose of calming the situation and encouraging people to return

6 home, that it would be a good idea for you to make an announcement on the

7 public media? Was this suggested to you?

8 A. First it was I who suggested that an intervention be made and for

9 me to be allowed to go there, and only after the exodus occurred, I

10 suggested that I should speak on the radio, but only after this had

11 happened did they offer me to make this broadcast, to make a public

12 statement.

13 Q. But as a man and as a priest who had throughout insisted on people

14 staying in their homes, you felt it would be useful and a good idea for

15 the Croats of Travnik to be addressed by you, as a priest, when you would

16 suggest to them not to leave their homes; is that true? You sincerely

17 wanted that and you made such an attempt; is that right?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Is it true that because of the general chaos, there were some

20 verbal provocations, and talking to Mr. Asim Gradincic, a representative

21 of the civilian authorities, you told him that you didn't feel quite safe

22 and that you would like to have some sort of protection; is that right?

23 A. I didn't just feel it; I experienced it. I -- already there was

24 pressure on the house as a building and on us, as the people living in it.

25 But I also wish to point out that the departure of the Croatian people

1 disturbed me so much that I was absolutely shocked. I was out of my mind.

2 I cried more than ever in my whole life.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, tell me, please: Is it true that you did address

4 Asim Gradincic, a representative of the civilian authorities, and conveyed

5 to him your fears and apprehensions and your request for protection, not

6 just for yourself, but the parish office and the church; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it true that immediately after that, both the military and the

9 civilian authorities reacted and designated two members of the BH army

10 from the protective platoon to watch over you and the parish office on a

11 permanent basis; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If I may remind you: Those members of the army were Mulam

14 Imamovic and Indjic Besim.

15 A. I don't remember either name. I know that one was called Dino and

16 he was a waiter in a coffee bar near the market. I knew him, but not the

17 others. I couldn't even remember what they looked like. But this one

18 person I did know, Dino he was called. And there were two of them.

19 Q. Actually, the presence of two members of the army was provided all

20 the time and who took care of your security round the clock; is that

21 right?

22 A. They were present in the house. As for security that I wanted to

23 talk to him about, the soldiers were in the house and they were there.

24 But they didn't mistreat us, nor did they represent a threat to us.

25 Q. Thank you. Let us now go back to the event that you said happened

1 on the 7th. And if I tell you that the event actually happened on the 8th

2 of June, would you agree with me?

3 A. Yes. When I said the 7th, this was something I was reminded of

4 when this event was discussed, but I'm sure that somewhere the date is

5 registered. So it's quite possible that I may be wrong. Whether it was

6 the 7th or the 8th.

7 Q. That morning, about half past 7.00 or 8.00, you were woken up by

8 Mrs. Finka Rajic, who told you that she thought somebody was attacking the

9 church?

10 A. No, not that she thought that someone was attacking it, but that

11 it was happening. She told us of that. But as soon as I opened my eyes,

12 I realised that it was true.

13 Q. She also told you that in front of the church there was a

14 foreigner, Mujahedin, and that bangings could be heard inside?

15 A. Yes, and I saw him immediately as well.

16 Q. When you saw this Mujahedin in front of the church, as you already

17 said, you called up the police immediately and the civilian authorities,

18 the people whose telephone numbers you had in the office?

19 A. Yes, correct. And in each call, I inquired about any other

20 authorities that I should call up, and I asked those that I was talking to

21 to pass on this information and to take steps.

22 Q. The soldiers who were in the office to take care of your safety

23 came out and headed towards the church, but one of the Mujahedin hit the

24 soldier with his rifle butt, the soldier fell on the ground, and

25 afterwards, they went into the parish office and locked themselves up; is

1 that correct?

2 A. I can't confirm that. I know what the soldier told me. He said

3 that he had been hit and that they had run into the house and locked

4 themselves in. And that is true.

5 Q. When you saw this Mujahedin and called up the civilian and

6 military authorities, you climbed up to the attic of the parish building

7 and you stayed there until Ms. Rajic called you and told you that the

8 soldiers had arrived and chased away the Mujahedin?

9 A. That was at the end, when we expected them to break into the house

10 as well.

11 Q. When Finka Rajic informed you that it was safe, you came down and

12 you saw in front of the church quite a number of people. The Mujahedin

13 were no longer there, they had left, but there were members of the army

14 and some representatives of the civilian authorities; is that right?

15 A. I wasn't watching from the house. I went downstairs and I saw

16 these people in front of the door, the people who had arrived.

17 Q. Representatives of the public security station, the MUP of

18 Travnik, also arrived, and they immediately carried out an on-site

19 inspection of what had happened in the church; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like the witness to be

22 shown a document of the report on the on-site inspection and the criminal

23 reports in connection with this incident, as the witness has confirmed

24 this. And once it has been shown to the witness, I should like to tender

25 it into evidence. At the same time, I should like to inform Your Honours

1 that during the investigation, the Defence found this document in the

2 archives of the district prosecutor's office in Travnik, where the

3 documents of the district military prosecutor's office in Travnik are also

4 kept.

5 Q. Mr. Ivkic, at the time, you immediately told members of the police

6 of your first impression regarding the damage, and you said that you

7 thought that the damage was of incalculable value. During the

8 investigation, it was quite clear that the raid had been done by eight to

9 ten Mujahedin and that they were not members of the army; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] After these answers by the

12 witness, and as it is a relevant document in our submission, I should like

13 to tender it into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is the position of the

15 Prosecution regarding the tendering of this document? Actually, there are

16 two documents, two translations that we have.

17 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution doesn't

18 object.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber wishes to note that,

20 contrary to what the Defence has said that the Mujahedin were not members

21 of the army, the document indicates that they were members of the Muslim

22 forces.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. They were not

24 members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as the Defence has sought

25 to show on a number of occasions.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, we

2 have two documents, therefore. Could you give us exhibit numbers for each

3 of those documents, together with their English translations.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document dated -- the document

5 number 198/02 230 150, criminal complaint, gets the exhibit number DH65,

6 marked for -- 66, marked for identification. And its English translation

7 gets Exhibit number DH --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is not to be marked for

9 identification. These are documents that are being finally admitted as

10 exhibits. So these are final numbers.

11 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise. Okay. The Exhibit number will be

12 DH66, and the exhibit number of the English translation gets the Exhibit

13 number DH66/E. And then the document titled "record on investigation"

14 gets the Exhibit number DH67, and the English translation gets the Exhibit

15 number DH67/E.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please continue.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Ivkic, you have already said that with the officials who

19 arrived after your call, Fikret Cuskic also arrived, who -- you said

20 Cuskic, and I suggest it was Fikret Cuskic, commander of the 17th Krajina

21 Brigade; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Gradincic also arrived, who was the one who communicated with

24 you most frequently on behalf of the civilian authorities?

25 A. He was the contact person throughout that period.

1 Q. The Travnik mufti also arrived, with whom you had good, friendly

2 relations up until then; is that right?

3 A. I don't remember that the mufti arrived. There wasn't a single

4 religious official coming to see me. I don't remember that.

5 Q. Commander Cuskic expressed his regret on account of what had

6 happened and said that the Mujahedin should be killed; is that right?

7 A. By saying that, he let me know that he did not agree with what had

8 been done.

9 Q. Immediately after the inspection, and after the officials had

10 toured the church, members of the civil defence came and assisted in

11 cleaning the church after the mess that had been made by the Mujahedin?

12 A. The church was cleaned shortly after that. Regarding the cleaning

13 of the church, Finka Rajic should be asked, because she did her best to do

14 it, and I think that the civil defence people did assist up to a point.

15 They did show readiness to do that.

16 Q. Mrs. Rajic managed to put away the damaged sculptures so that, as

17 you testified today, some of them could be repaired, as you have testified

18 today?

19 A. The objects were broken, and as such, they were put to one side in

20 the church or in the sacristy. The possibility of repairing them was

21 something that I was unable to judge at that point in time, but the scope

22 of destruction was very considerable.

23 Q. For the sake of the transcript, could Mrs. Rajic's name be noted

24 as Finka, "F", and not Finka, as noted on page 75, line 14. Finka,

25 F-i-n-k-a.

1 Q. Mr. Ivkic, a moment ago you said that you asked for permission to

2 go to a place where the refugee population was located when answering

3 questions put to you previously you said that from an army commander you

4 received permission, in fact, a document which showed that you were under

5 the protection of the army; is that correct?

6 A. It was a piece of paper. It wasn't even A4 format. It was a

7 piece of paper, and I remember the exact words. It said that I was under

8 the protection of the BH army.

9 Q. In addition to that piece of paper, you were provided with two

10 other permits, although one mistakenly stated that your name was Ukic [as

11 interpreted] instead of Ivkic, and your name was mistakenly represented.

12 Instead of Mirko, it was Ivko. In order to remind you about this, I would

13 like to show the witness two -- the two documents to the witness that have

14 to do with his -- with permission given to him to move around the area.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: To move around the

16 area of Ovcarevo and Plakarevo.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the Defence tell us where

18 these documents come from, the documents that they are presenting now.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence found these documents

20 in the course of its investigations in the archives in Travnik. That's

21 where they were found.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I have to tell you

23 that I'm not familiar with these documents. I've never had them before

24 me. And I wouldn't have said that my name was Fabo or Ivo. I would have

25 said that my name was Mirko. That's a significant difference. And

1 likewise, Babic, Dr. Zdravko Babic, I can't remember anyone who that is

2 name. Kemal Sisic, a driver, perhaps. This is an internal document.

3 I've never seen these documents before.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the witness

5 can't identify these documents, I won't be suggesting that they be marked

6 for identification, but I have a question for the witness.

7 Q. Witness, would it be correct to say that you were given permission

8 to go to Ovcarevo, and you in fact did go there?

9 A. Yes, it's correct. I did go to Ovcarevo, to the place called

10 Ovcarevo, which is a village. I was taken there and returned.

11 Q. However, unfortunately, as you said a while ago, it was late,

12 because the population that had waited there for a few days had already

13 crossed the lines and left the area of Travnik municipality; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In response to a question put to you by the Prosecution -- yes,

17 please go ahead.

18 A. I'd like to say that this is not correct. When it mentions a Yugo

19 vehicle, the vehicle concerned was not a Yugo vehicle.

20 Q. Since you can't identify the documents and the documents refer to

21 you, I've withdrawn my suggestion to have these documents admitted into

22 evidence, and you have told me, in your own words, how you went to

23 Ovcarevo. I'm quite content with your answer. Thank you.

24 In response to a question put to you by my learned colleague from

25 the Prosecution, you also said that you wanted to establish contact,

1 communications with the bishop in Sarajevo and the BH army made this

2 possible for you. You were able to do so from their communications

3 centre; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. From Mr. Puljic -- you asked Mr. Puljic to come to Travnik, if he

6 could, in order to visit the church and to make sure that the church could

7 continue to function as usual; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. You also explained that he was not able to come immediately

10 because the bishopric in Sarajevo had been shelled by the Serbian forces.

11 But he took advantage of the first opportunity to come and visit, and in

12 the second half of June, he came to Travnik; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. He came in UNPROFOR vehicles?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In fact, because of the fierce fighting in the surroundings of

17 Travnik, from another -- it wasn't possible to come to Travnik from other

18 parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina unless UNPROFOR provided assistance; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. So this was a result of the situation. The fact that the HVO and

22 the army were fighting each other. At that time, they could not

23 communicate; is that correct?

24 A. Yes. They were involved in a conflict. That's correct. But they

25 also had the possibility of communicating through UNPROFOR.

1 Q. You personally weren't able to address UNPROFOR, to contact

2 UNPROFOR and to inform them of your desire to leave Travnik. You couldn't

3 do this before Mr. Puljic arrived?

4 A. That's correct, and that's what was most terrible. I wasn't able

5 to contact anyone else. I wasn't able to contact the journalists or

6 UNPROFOR. I could only contact Asim Gradincic. It was through Asim

7 Gradincic that I could contact the town authorities, but not in relation

8 to everything that I wanted to contact them about. This was done --

9 contact was established when they wished contact to be established. I'd

10 like to say that sometimes I was forced to do this. Arms were used to

11 force me to do this.

12 Q. When Mr. Puljic, the Bosnian bishop, arrived in Travnik, he was

13 received as a prominent guest and he was given all the honours that such

14 guests are given; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You took advantage of the situation -- I'll ask you a different

17 question. When Bishop Puljic arrived on the 19th of June, that's when he

18 arrived in Travnik, at that time the church was already functioning.

19 Masses could be celebrated in the church. It had been cleaned up and the

20 objects that had been damaged had been removed and it was possible to use

21 the church; is that correct?

22 A. No, it's not correct. It's true that the church had been cleaned

23 up, but it wasn't functioning properly, and I was not in a position to

24 perform my duties in the church at the time. I was involved in other

25 matters at the time.

1 Q. You personally, as a man, were affected by the entire situation

2 and by the fact that you couldn't retain the local inhabitants in the

3 town. You were personally afraid, and as you said, you took advantage of

4 the situation and you got into an UNPROFOR vehicle and left Travnik in

5 this manner; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. You were replaced by the priest Pavo Nikolic; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. He immediately started performing his duties, because at the time,

10 St. John the Baptist's feast was approaching and the BH army made it

11 possible for this day to be celebrated as best as possible; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes. That's what I heard. I know that that's what happened. But

14 that does not mean that Pavo had the same experience as I did.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness has said that he

16 has heard about this, that he is aware of the fact that this happened,

17 I'll show the witness a document from the BH army. This document shows

18 that the army took steps to ensure that this important saint's day be

19 celebrated. So I would like this witness to be shown the document, and

20 I'd now like to suggest that the document be marked for identification.

21 Q. I'd just like to repeat the question once more. You know that the

22 BH army and the local authorities took steps to ensure that, on the 24th

23 of June, 1993, the saint's day be celebrated in the church of St. John the

24 Baptist. You're aware of this fact, are you not?

25 A. Yes, I'm aware of this fact. It's irrelevant for me.

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ivkic.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document be marked for

3 identification. And I have no further questions for the witness. This

4 document was found in the Travnik archives in the course of the Defence's

5 investigations.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we mark the document for

7 identification, I would like to know what the Prosecution's position is.

8 And I would also like to point out the following: It seems that the

9 Defence is claiming that the army took steps for protection. When we have

10 a look at the document, at the beginning of the letter, we can see that it

11 is in fact a response to a request which was apparently compiled by the

12 priest, Nikolic. So it's a response to a request. It's not a personal

13 initiative taken by Mr. Alagic.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We have shown

15 other documents in which it mentions the attempts of the civilian

16 protection. It mentions on-site investigations, et cetera. Naturally,

17 the new priest addressed these people with regard to the saint's day. And

18 as you can see from the letter, the army accepted to help the church

19 celebrate this day.

20 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I have --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say was not

22 quite that.

23 Yes, Mr. Withopf.

24 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I wish to express my concerns if my

25 learned friend tries to testify before this Court in respect to the

1 marking for identification of this document, in light of the -- today's

2 decision of the Trial Chamber and in light of the additional explanations

3 given to the decision, the Prosecution doesn't object.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will mark the

5 document for identification, which means that this document isn't being

6 admitted into evidence, but at some subsequent time, the Defence might

7 provide additional information to support the document.

8 Mr. Registrar, could we have a number for identification.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the Exhibit number will be DH68,

10 marked for identification, and the English translation gets the Exhibit

11 number DH68/E, marked for identification.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. If I

13 have understood you correctly, the Defence has no further questions; is

14 that correct, Ms. Residovic?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. Thank you,

16 Mr. President.

17 Thank you, Mr. Ivkic.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Before we adjourn,

19 because we will be adjourning soon, the Trial Chamber has a minor question

20 for the witness.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When your church was damaged by

23 these eight or ten individuals, and you said that these individuals were

24 Mujahedin, were these individuals, if you saw them, wearing uniforms? Did

25 you see them personally?

1 A. Not all of them.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How many of them did you see?

3 A. I saw a soldier in front. His uniform was a Mujahedin uniform.

4 It wasn't a traditional, classical uniform such as the ones that BH army

5 soldiers wore. I also saw --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Could you describe

7 the uniform that you saw, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.

8 A. To tell you the truth, I don't have a clear picture of the

9 uniform. I was afraid at the time, but I noticed that the soldier wasn't

10 wearing a cap. And this upper part, it wasn't really a regular part of a

11 military uniform. It wasn't very neat and proper. He had a rifle. I

12 know for sure that it was a Mujahedin. That's how he looked. That's how

13 he was addressed.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's what we

15 wanted to know.

16 Mr. Withopf, we have a few more minutes. Do you have any further

17 questions? I didn't think there were any questions for the other Defence

18 team. Mr. Dixon, I'm certain of your response, although I skipped you.

19 MR. DIXON: We have no questions for this witness. As we

20 anticipated, he hasn't testified about any charges against Mr. Kubura.

21 I'm grateful.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Dixon.

23 Yes, Mr. Withopf.

24 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution has no

25 questions in re-examination.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Witness, thank you for having come to The Hague. You have

3 testified in the conditions we decided on at the beginning of the hearing.

4 You have answered the questions put to you both by the Defence and by the

5 Prosecution, and you have also provided the Trial Chamber with certain

6 clarifications. I wish you a good trip back to the country where you act

7 as a priest at the moment. And I will now ask the usher to escort you out

8 of the courtroom.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I wish you a lot of

10 success in your work.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll now turn to Mr. Withopf.

12 We are a little late because two witnesses were scheduled for today and we

13 have only heard one of them. Tomorrow we were to have two witnesses. Do

14 you think that both witnesses will be able to -- will be able to be

15 examined tomorrow? What is your assessment of the situation for tomorrow?

16 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, both witnesses will be

17 made available, obviously. It's hard to anticipate at this stage whether

18 it will be possible to finish with both witnesses tomorrow. However, it

19 could be possible. It depends again, of course, on the length of

20 cross-examination. From what we can anticipate, it could -- or there is

21 some --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in relation to how long the

23 examination will last.

24 MR. WITHOPF: This is what I was just about to say. I was just

25 about to indicate how long the Prosecution will probably need for the

1 examination-in-chief. Based on our assessment of the

2 examination-in-chief, it may be possible that both witnesses can be

3 concluded tomorrow, but there's obviously no guarantee.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I suggest that in

5 relation to these two witnesses, you should see if one of them might be

6 able to stay on over the weekend, appear for a hearing on Monday. So you

7 should see whether one of the witnesses perhaps has a reason to return

8 home earlier. You could perhaps take steps in order to make sure that the

9 first witness to testify is the one who might have a problem if he had to

10 stay on in The Hague. I think it would be good to pay attention to this

11 issue to ensure that the witnesses testify in the best possible

12 conditions.

13 I apologise to the interpreters for having exceeded the time. We

14 will resume tomorrow at 9.00. Thank you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.59 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day of March,

17 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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