Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4956

1 Wednesday, 24 March 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, would you please

6 call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 The appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,

12 Your Honours. Good morning, Counsel. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis,

13 Ekkehard Withopf, and Ruth Karper, the case manager.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

15 Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic,

16 Edina Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel. Thank you.

17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

18 behalf of Amir Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and

19 Nermin Mulalic, legal assistant.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber bids

21 good morning to all the parties present, the OTP, the Defence counsel, the

22 accused, as well as all the staff of this courtroom. This procedure of

23 appearances is repeated every day; however, it is designed for the public,

24 as the proceedings are broadcast, if anyone is following, it is important

25 that the people present should be identified. That is why I'm asking you

Page 4957

1 every time to introduce ourselves for the benefit of the public. Today we

2 have a new witness, and I'm going to ask Madam Usher to go and bring the

3 witness -- however, first let us hear Mr. Bourgon.

4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good

5 morning, Madam Judge, good morning, Your Honours. The Defence would like

6 to tender the military maps that we discussed for the purpose of

7 identification. We told to you -- we told you that these are maps that

8 can be used by all the parties, the Prosecution and the Defence and

9 Your Honours, and there are four different formats of these maps. And

10 with your permission, I should like to begin with these maps in the scale

11 of 1 to 200.000.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please don't disappear.

13 Mr. Bourgon needs you.

14 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Would you be kind enough to

15 distribute the following documents which explains the sources of the maps

16 and also describes the region shown on each of these maps.

17 For the purpose of identification, we would like to underline

18 that these are military maps provided to us by the Army of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina. These are maps that were used at the time by the Army of

20 Yugoslavia. The series that we have are in the scale of 1 to 200.000.

21 And the document with the Banja Luka indication on it was copied on one of

22 these four maps. And on these documents, you have the four maps shown,

23 that is, Banja Luka 4517; Doboj, 4518; Jajce, 4417; and Sarajevo, 4418.

24 This is a document that illustrates the various maps, and I have a series

25 of these maps, one for the Chamber, one for the registry, one for the

Page 4958

1 Prosecution, and one set that we will be sharing, that is, both Defence

2 teams will be sharing.

3 In each of these tubes we have indicated the scale as well as the

4 number of the maps, and for whom the maps are intended.

5 The selection of maps was made to indicate the geographic areas

6 mentioned in the indictment and the areas which the Defence will be using,

7 both during the Prosecution case and during the Defence case.

8 We have four maps, and the scale is 1 to 200.000. And as we go

9 down to a lower scale, which means a more detailed presentation, it will

10 be the same sector but a more particular area where certain acts may have

11 been committed.

12 Mr. President, the best procedure would be to give one number as

13 identification for a whole series.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, the Defence is

15 providing us with four maps for the moment with a scale 1 to 200.000

16 covering the areas of Banja Luka, Doboj, Jajce, and the fourth region is

17 Sarajevo. These maps, according to what the Defence tells us, are maps

18 that were in force during the time of the JNA, as these were maps that

19 were used by the army of the former Yugoslavia, and these maps precede the

20 events that the Chamber is addressing. These were not maps drafted after

21 but before the events.

22 So does the Prosecution have any objections regarding the use of

23 these maps, which could have been also been tendered by the Prosecution,

24 if it had made such a request to the Army of the Federation of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina? Mr. Withopf.

Page 4959

1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, there's no objection

2 by the Prosecution to use and to tender these maps.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

4 So let us give an exhibit number, as this will be simpler. So,

5 Mr. Registrar, we have four maps which merit having a name and a number,

6 Banja Luka, Doboj, Sarajevo, and Jajce.

7 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us first give an exhibit

10 number for the introductory documents. So we will have one exhibit number

11 for the three documents, TK200, set number 2; and the third document. So

12 one exhibit number for these three documents.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH74 for

14 the B/C/S documents and DH74/E for the English translation of the

15 how-to-put-together-map sheet.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we have DH74 for the three

17 pieces of paper, three documents as introduction.

18 Now, let us have a DH number for Banja Luka, 4717; Doboj, 4518;

19 and another one for Sarajevo and for Jajce. So let us have four numbers

20 for these maps.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map number 4517, Banja Luka,

22 gets the exhibit number DH75; the map number 4417, Jajce, gets exhibit

23 number DH76; the map number 4518, Doboj, gets the exhibit number 77; and

24 the map number 4418, Sarajevo, gets the exhibit number DH78.

25 I apologise, the exhibit number should not be 77 but Exhibit

Page 4960

1 Number DH77 for the map of Doboj.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

3 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. For the

4 record, the four numbers indicated are the maps in the scale 1 to 200.000.

5 I should also like to indicate to the Chamber that these maps

6 were in use prior to the conflict, during the conflict, and are still in

7 use today.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. I indicated that

9 they were designed prior to the conflict. But they were used during the

10 conflict and they are still being used, which means that they are

11 absolutely acceptable. But as the scale doesn't change, it is eternal, no

12 reason to change the map.

13 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] The second series of maps is in the

14 scale 1 to 100.000. And I would like to ask Madam Usher to distribute the

15 introductory documents for these maps.

16 And I would like again to underline that the choice of maps and

17 the sector represented on those maps, in the scale 1 to 100.000, is within

18 the territory covered by the maps in the scale of 1 to 200.000 and that

19 these maps were chosen as a function of the area of responsibility of the

20 3rd Corps, with other zones of responsibility in the surroundings,

21 regarding the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina 1993. This is a series of

22 six maps, and we have a copy for the Chamber, a copy for the Prosecution,

23 and a copy for the registrar.

24 There are two documents in colour which are identical, prepared

25 by the accused in two languages to avoid any confusion.

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Page 4962

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A small clarification,

2 Mr. Bourgon. You are giving us a map of Vares, 475. This geographic area

3 is subdivided into four sections, -1, -2, -3, -4. Whereas, in the

4 document produced, there are six subsections. Why are there four on the

5 one hand and six on the other?

6 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

7 document entitled "Vares," 475, was photocopied from one of these maps,

8 and the region which has a darker line around it is divided into six

9 squares, called Jajce, Zenica, Vares, Livno, Konjic, and Sarajevo, and

10 this corresponds to the document in colour with the six squares. And if

11 you have a look at the document in colour, above that we have Banja Luka,

12 423; and Doboj, 425. So we can easily understand which map is being

13 referred to when they are used.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We still don't have the maps.

15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I provided three sets, one for the

16 Prosecution, one for the registry, and one for the Chamber, and there's a

17 label on them, so they must be there.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Apparently one of the tubes is

19 missing.

20 Ah, here it is. I'm sorry.

21 Mr. Withopf.

22 MR. WITHOPF: Again, Mr. President, the Prosecution has no

23 objection in using and tendering these maps.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Mr. Registrar, please give me a number for the two documents

Page 4963

1 Vares, with the subsection in English and B/C/S. So a document for

2 these -- a number for these document, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH79;

4 and for the English translation, DH79/E.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And now for the six

6 maps in the scale 1 to 100.000.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map number 473 for Jajce gets

8 the exhibit number DH80; the map number 523, Livno, gets the exhibit

9 number DH81; the map number 474, Zenica, gets the exhibit number DH82; the

10 map number 524, Konjic, gets Exhibit Number DH83; the map 475, Vares, gets

11 the exhibit number DH84; and the map number 525, Sarajevo, gets the

12 exhibit number DH85.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Has everyone noted carefully

14 the numbers, I hope?

15 Having specified that we have given DH numbers to these maps, but

16 we could also have given a DHK indication, because these are maps for both

17 Defence teams.

18 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, submitted on

19 behalf of the two accused.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Are there any more

21 maps?

22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] The next series of maps is in the

23 scale 1 to 50.000, and we will use the same procedure. We have three

24 documents. It's a series of eight maps.

25 Mr. President, as we are going from the scale of 1 to 100.000 to

Page 4964

1 the scale of 1 to 50.000, it is worth mentioning that the map is twice as

2 precise because the area represented is twice the size of the map in the

3 scale of 1 to 100.000. We have Zenica-4. It's a reproduction, a

4 photocopy, of one of the maps, that is, the map Zenica-4, which you see

5 indicated with a darker line on this document. So you see Zenica-4 as

6 well as the areas represented by the eight maps we are tendering. So

7 there's Zenica-1, -2, -3, and -4, and on the left-hand side there's

8 Jajce-4, and then Livno-2, and Konjic-1, as well as to the right we see

9 Vares-3. You can also see in the introductory documents that the other

10 maps could also be presented to or shown to the Chamber if the parties

11 find it fit to refer to a more detailed presentation of the area in

12 presenting their case.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, let

14 us have a number for these two documents, Zenica-4, and six subsections.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH86;

16 and the English translation gets the exhibit number DH86/E.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we have eight maps,

18 Zenica-1, -2, -3, -4; plus Jajce-4; Vares-3; Livno-2; and Konjic-1. So

19 we have six maps.

20 Mr. Withopf.

21 MR. WITHOPF: Again, Mr. President, Your Honours, no objection.

22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. President, there are

23 eight maps.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see, eight. One, two, three,

25 four -- yes, exactly, eight maps. Eight maps.

Page 4965

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map Zenica-1 gets the exhibit

2 number DH87; the map Zenica-2 gets the exhibit number DH88; map Zenica-3

3 gets exhibit number DH89; the map Zenica-4 gets the exhibit number DH90;

4 the map Jajce-4 gets exhibit number DH91; the map DH -- the map Vares-3

5 gets the exhibit number DH92; the map Livno-2 gets the exhibit number

6 DH93; and the map Konjic-1 gets Exhibit Number DH94.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

8 Let us continue.

9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We have

10 a last series of maps in the scale of 1 to 25.000 for the territories

11 illustrated. They are again twice as large or more detailed than the

12 previous one. So this is a series of 12 maps in the scale 1 to 25.000

13 which are presented similarly.

14 It was not possible to use the same method as before. We just

15 have a coloured document indicating each of the maps as they are

16 represented and how they should be assembled should one wish to put them

17 one next to the other.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, a number,

19 please, for the B/C/S version and the English version.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number is DH95 for the

21 B/C/S version and DH95/E for the English version.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We just have the

23 tubes left now.

24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] This series in the scale 1 to

25 25.000 consists of 12 maps with the numbers as indicated on the document

Page 4966

1 DH95. I should like to note for the benefit of the Chamber that on the

2 tubes the series 200.000 bears the number 2; the series of 1 to 100.000

3 bears the number 3; the series in 1 to 50.000 bears the number 4; and the

4 series in the scale 1 to 25.000 bears the number 5. So map number 1, in

5 scale 1 to 500.000, we hope we will not need. Should the Chamber wish to

6 have that map, which covers all the territories referred to in the

7 indictment, the Defence may also provide that map.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we note that on the tubes we

9 have the numbers 2, 3, 4, 5. Number 1 is missing because number 1

10 corresponds to a map in the scale 1 to 500.000. So we have 12 maps in the

11 scale 1 to 25.000.

12 Mr. Withopf.

13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, again, no objections.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have a

15 number for each map.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map Livno 2-2 gets exhibit

17 number DH96; the map Jajce 4-4 gets exhibit number DH97; the map Zenica

18 1-4 gets the exhibit number DH98; the map Zenica 2-3 gets the exhibit

19 number DH99; the map Zenica 3-1 gets the exhibit number DH100; the map

20 DH -- sorry, the map Zenica 3-2 gets the exhibit number DH101; the map

21 Zenica 3-3 gets the exhibit number DH102; the map Zenica 4-1 get it is

22 exhibit number DH103; the map Zenica 4-2 gets the exhibit number DH104;

23 the map Zenica 4-4 gets the exhibit number DH105; the map Vares 3-1 gets

24 exhibit number DH106; and the map Vares 3-3 gets the exhibit number DH107.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

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Page 4968

1 All the maps have been tendered into evidence and they have been

2 given definitive, final, exhibit numbers. When either of the parties

3 needs one of these maps, it's sufficient to refer to the number. We will

4 then produce the map in question.

5 Madam Usher, could you call the witness into the courtroom.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. Are you

8 receiving the interpretation of what I am saying?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am. Yes, I am.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you have been called here as

11 a witness for the Prosecution, you have to make the solemn declaration.

12 But before you do so, before you read out the text before you, it's

13 necessary for you to inform the Trial Chamber of your identity. Could you

14 please tell me your first and last names.

15 THE WITNESS: My name is Launcelot James Cameron Kiggell.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your date of birth?

17 THE WITNESS: 19th of February, 1966.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And which town or village were

19 you born in?

20 THE WITNESS: I was born in Lincoln.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which country is Lincoln in?

22 THE WITNESS: In the United Kingdom.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

24 profession?

25 THE WITNESS: I am currently a teacher of economics and business

Page 4969

1 studies.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, what was your official

3 position at the time, ten years ago?

4 THE WITNESS: I was a British Army officer, and I was at the rank

5 of captain.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already -- have you

7 already testified before a court, or is this the first time?

8 THE WITNESS: This is the first time.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you will be testifying, you

10 have to make the solemn declaration. Could you read the text that you

11 have in your hands.

12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

13 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 WITNESS: CAMERON KIGGELL

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.

16 In the course of your exchanges with the Prosecution, the

17 Prosecution probably told you how we would be proceeding. The

18 Trial Chamber must also provide you with some information.

19 You are a witness for the Prosecution. The Prosecution will be

20 asking you some questions about events that you were an eyewitness of or

21 perhaps an oral witness. The Prosecution is to your right. The person

22 who will be asking you some questions is Mr. Withopf. He will be

23 conducting his examination-in-chief, and after he has concluded the

24 examination-in-chief, you will be cross-examined by the Defence. They are

25 to your left. And the accused, who won't be speaking, are behind them.

Page 4970

1 The three Judges, sitting before you, have the right to ask you

2 questions at any point in time, either questions that are directly related

3 to questions put to you by either of the parties, or they might ask you

4 any other questions that might be of interest for the pursuit of justice.

5 Before answering a question, think about your answer. If there

6 is a question that you don't understand, ask the person putting it to you

7 to rephrase it to ensure that your answer is clear. The proceedings here

8 are oral. We don't have any written record, so we don't know what you

9 will be saying. What you say will help to establish the truth. This is

10 why it is necessary for your answers to be precise, clear, and concise.

11 In addition, I have to remind you of two other factors: Firstly,

12 you have made the solemn declaration, which means that you will tell the

13 truth. If a witness lies, gives false testimony, the witness could be

14 prosecuted for having given false testimony. This is the case in all

15 countries. This is a measure I had to remind you of. Giving false

16 testimony can be penalised. You could be given a fine or a prison

17 sentence.

18 In addition, there is another provision, but this shouldn't be

19 applicable to you: If a witness answers a question and the information he

20 provides might incriminate him, you have the right to refuse to answer the

21 question. Nevertheless, the Chamber could compel you to answer the

22 question. But if that is the case, the information you provide can't be

23 used against you. So you have such immunity.

24 So roughly speaking, this is how your testimony will

25 proceed -- this is how the testimony of witnesses proceeds, so when a

Page 4971

1 witness is called by the Prosecution, by the Defence, or by the Chamber.

2 So without wasting any more time, the Prosecution may take the

3 floor. Mr. Withopf.

4 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Examined by Mr. Withopf:

6 Q. Good morning, sir.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. Sir, you informed the Trial Chamber that in 1993 you've been a

9 British Army officer. Can you please for the benefit of the Trial Chamber

10 briefly summarise your military career within the British Army.

11 A. I joined the army in 1987 and was commissioned to officer in

12 1988. I then joined my unit. One of my first jobs was clearing up at

13 Lockerbie. I spent a year commanding a platoon of 36 men and then in 1990

14 was sent on an operational tour to Northern Ireland, where I again

15 commanded 36 soldiers. Then, came back and was selected to run and set up

16 a team for specialist recruiting, running an event training. Came back

17 and then rejoined the battalion, ready for another operational tour in

18 Northern Ireland. And then after Northern Ireland, I was sent on my

19 promotion to major's course, which was about six months long. I completed

20 that and then rejoined my battalion in January 1993, where we were then

21 told we were going to Bosnia in April that year.

22 After doing Bosnia, I was then promoted to operations officer and

23 I finished my military career at the end of December 1995.

24 Q. Sir, what was your military rank when you left the British Army?

25 A. I was a captain.

Page 4972

1 Q. Can you briefly, sir, inform the Trial Chamber what you've done

2 after you left the British Army.

3 A. I then joined a commercial company that made water purification

4 equipment. I worked for them for several years and then went and did a

5 masters degree in business administration at Durham University. And the

6 company invited me back to become a director, which I joined. And then

7 last year in July, I left them to start my new teaching job.

8 Q. Whilst being with the British Army, sir, did there come a time

9 when you were deployed in the area of the former Yugoslavia?

10 A. Yes. I was deployed in April 1993, and I stayed there until

11 November 1993.

12 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber where you were deployed

13 in the area of the former Yugoslavia.

14 A. I was deployed in Central Bosnia. We were stationed in Vitez.

15 And I worked there from May to the end of August. And then for the last

16 two months I was deployed to Tuzla.

17 Q. Sir, what was the context of you having been deployed in the area

18 of Central Bosnia you just described?

19 A. The British Battalion were requested to work under UNPROFOR to

20 help deliver aid and medical supplies in Central Bosnia and in Tuzla.

21 Q. Can you please also inform, sir, the Trial Chamber about the name

22 of the military unit you formed part of during that period of time.

23 A. We were known as BritBat, which was short for British Battalion.

24 Q. Whilst you were deployed in the area of Central Bosnia you just

25 described, what was your responsibility? What duties were assigned to

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Page 4974

1 you?

2 A. I was assigned to be a liaison officer for Zenica. And in my

3 role, I was to find out information, what was going on in the area, which

4 enabled the British Battalion to operate in Central Bosnia. This was so

5 we could find out where it would be possible to deliver aid, medical

6 supplies, and help where required.

7 Q. In fulfilling your duties as a liaison officer, what did you

8 actually do? Can you please describe for the benefit of the Trial Chamber

9 the daily routine.

10 A. I would leave Vitez and drive into Zenica and would often go into

11 3 Corps and other -- and just find out information that was going on in

12 Zenica, other military units, just to get to know them, get to know the

13 names of the commanders, also to speak to the international aid

14 organisations, also to speak to some of the civil power as well, just to

15 see what's happening and where the British Battalion could help at that

16 stage.

17 Q. Can you please, sir, go into some more detail in respect to with

18 whom you communicated whilst you were the liaison officer for the area of

19 Zenica.

20 A. Well, we liaised on the military side with 3 Corps. And we then

21 also dealt with all the brigade commanders. So we had dealt with the 3

22 Corps commander, the deputy commander was also assigned a liaison officer

23 within 3 Corps. So I used to deal with them regularly. And then as well

24 as going round to the different brigades to speak to the commanders and

25 other civil people.

Page 4975

1 Q. What sort of civil people did you talk to?

2 A. I spoke to the chief of the police. I spoke to the mayor, and

3 also the ordinary civilians on the streets as well.

4 Q. Prior to arriving in Central Bosnia, did you get any briefing

5 from the British Army about the situation in Central Bosnia?

6 A. We had many briefings before we deployed from Germany. We had

7 briefings of what was going on. We had training to prepare us for the

8 role. And then when we arrived in country, we then had a more up-to-date

9 briefing of what had been happening in the war at that stage.

10 Q. Briefings were given to you in respect to what was going on in

11 the area. Can you please be a bit more concrete in that respect.

12 A. Yes. When we arrived in Split, we were given a military briefing

13 of what was happening on the war of that front, where the movements were,

14 what was happening, and what we could, you know, expect, and what was

15 perhaps predicted might occur.

16 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber about the area you were

17 deployed after you were assigned being the liaison officer with the

18 3rd Corps, with the ABiH 3rd Corps.

19 A. I was responsible for Zenica town and the surrounding area. I

20 didn't go all the way down into the Lasva Valley, so the immediate

21 surrounding area of Zenica and Zenica itself.

22 Q. At the time you were deployed in Zenica and the surrounding areas

23 of Zenica, did you also talk to representatives of other international

24 organisations?

25 A. Yes. I worked with the United Nations, the UNHCR, the Red Cross,

Page 4976

1 various aid organisations that were operating in the area at the time.

2 Q. You earlier on mentioned, sir, that you were based in Vitez.

3 Where in Vitez exactly were you based?

4 A. We were based in the old school, which I recall -- it's

5 Nova Bila, I think it is, it was called.

6 Q. Can you please describe for the benefit of the Trial Chamber a

7 typical day, a typical workday whilst you were assigned as the liaison

8 officer for the Zenica area.

9 A. Sometime between 8.00 and 9.00 in the morning I would drive

10 across into Zenica, either using the mountain route or the bypass, and

11 would go and speak to representatives of 3 Corps, military people. I was

12 really on my own to go and find out what information you could gather at

13 that time. So there was no sort of set routine. It was just driving

14 around, seeing what I could see, see who I could speak to, and then return

15 back to the British Battalion round about 5.00 ready for a 6.00 briefing.

16 Q. You earlier on mentioned, sir, that you were deployed as the

17 liaison officer in the Zenica area and the surroundings from May to August

18 1993. Can you, if possible, please provide us with some more specific

19 dates, if you do recall.

20 A. Yes. I came back down from Tuzla round about the 21st of May,

21 and then took over my duties a couple of days later as Zenica LO. And

22 then it was until the 31st of August I remained Zenica LO, where I then

23 handed over to another army officer from our battalion, who became the

24 Zenica LO, and I became the Tuzla liaison officer.

25 Q. You just mentioned that each work day finished with the briefing

Page 4977

1 at 6.00 p.m. Where did this briefing take place?

2 A. This took place in the British Battalion headquarters in the old

3 school.

4 Q. In the old school in Vitez?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who attended such daily briefings?

7 A. All departmental heads, the liaison officers, having been round

8 at the area. We would then feed back our information into the meeting.

9 The commanding officer would be there, the intelligence officer would be

10 there, so everybody who needed to know, who represented a department

11 within the British Battalion, was represented.

12 Q. Sir, who was the commanding officer at the time, your commanding

13 officer?

14 A. Lieutenant Colonel Alastair Duncan.

15 Q. And to whom did Lieutenant Colonel Alastair Duncan report to?

16 What was his chain of command?

17 A. He reported to Brigadier Searby, who was based in Split.

18 Q. In the course of such daily briefings at 6.00 p.m., can you

19 please inform the Trial Chamber what has been reported and what has been

20 discussed at such briefings.

21 A. We would all give information of what we had seen going on that

22 day, who we'd met, what information we'd gathered, and try and give an

23 assessment of what could likely happen in our area of responsibility. So

24 everybody shared the information and the intelligence officer would

25 compile this information later on.

Page 4978

1 Q. The intelligence officer would compile such information later on.

2 Did the compilation of such information, of the information result in any

3 report in writing?

4 A. The report that was produced was called the milinfosum, the

5 military information summary.

6 Q. What was the purpose, sir, to have such milinfosums?

7 A. The purpose was to collate all the information and get a picture

8 of what was happening in the region, and also to see what trends and

9 what's likely to happen. And then that information was then fed up the

10 British chain of command, so they had an idea of what was going on in the

11 territory.

12 Q. You already partially earlier answered my next question. Who was

13 supposed to read the milinfosum?

14 A. Well, everybody had access to it. Having had the information at

15 the meeting verbally told, everyone had a picture. And if you got the

16 opportunity, everyone could read the milinfosum. So therefore having read

17 it in the battalion, it would then be fed up to the brigade headquarters

18 in Split and the people responsible there would read it and it would also

19 be fed back to the UK.

20 Q. Did you yourself get an opportunity to read the milinfosums?

21 A. Yes, frequently.

22 Q. The milinfosums, did they stay within the British Army, BritBat?

23 A. I think they did. The information may have been shared amongst

24 the international community. I'm not sure.

25 Q. Can you please describe for the benefit of the Trial Chamber what

Page 4979

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3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

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13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4980

1 the contents of a typical milinfosum has been at the time.

2 A. It would often have a report of the activity, who had seen the

3 activity and reported it. And they would often be a comment by -- made in

4 the text which the intelligence officer would insert either from talking

5 and debriefing the liaison officers or the relevant people who had

6 reported that incident for it to be fed back up the chain of command.

7 Q. Sir, can such a milinfosum be described as a summary of the daily

8 briefings, or was it more comprehensive?

9 A. It was more comprehensive because there often wasn't time to give

10 so much detail at the meeting. So therefore it was -- I used to come in

11 and give information to the intelligence officer, which was more detailed

12 information, who I'd met, which wasn't really relevant at the 6.00

13 meeting.

14 Q. Did such milinfosums also contain an analytical portion?

15 A. Yes. It -- again, from the information that was on the sheets,

16 you know, you could perhaps make an analysis of what was happening and

17 what could happen.

18 Q. Who was the person or what was the position of the person who was

19 responsible for putting together the information in the milinfosums?

20 A. He was a captain and he was the intelligence officer.

21 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that the intelligence officer had a

22 broad knowledge of the situation in the area?

23 A. Yes. He would have got a good knowledge from speaking to all the

24 different parties.

25 Q. You earlier on mentioned, sir, that you met with many people,

Page 4981

1 amongst them with commanders within 3rd Corps. Whom actually did you

2 meet?

3 A. Well, I met Enver Hadzihasanovic, who was the 3 Corps commander;

4 and then I met his deputy commander, which was Merdan; and then I met the

5 liaison officer who was assigned to me, it was a chap called Edo, I can't

6 remember his surname. And then I also met other individuals. Sakib, I

7 think was the adjutant within 3 Corps and I also met other commanders at 3

8 Corps as well.

9 Q. How often did you meet the 3rd Corps commander at the time,

10 Enver Hadzihasanovic?

11 A. I met them very regularly. At the beginning, it was almost

12 daily. So I met them on a number of occasions.

13 Q. And to your recollection, sir, how often did you meet

14 Dzemal Merdan?

15 A. Again, I met him on many occasions, either at 3 Corps or out on

16 the ground.

17 Q. What was Mr. Merdan's position at the time?

18 A. He was the deputy commander of 3 Corps.

19 Q. When you met Mr. Hadzihasanovic, where did you meet him?

20 A. I met him at 3 Corps headquarters, which was based in the

21 steelworks in Zenica.

22 Q. Can you please describe for the benefit of the Trial Chamber how

23 Mr. Hadzihasanovic's office looked like.

24 A. It was a large office. It had obviously been the chief

25 executive's office of the steelworks. Over to the left you had his desk

Page 4982

1 and there were some couches just to the left of that. And then you had a

2 huge boardroom table to the right.

3 Q. When you met Mr. Hadzihasanovic in his office, were there

4 occasions when you've seen maps, military maps?

5 A. Yes, there were maps that had been spread out onto the table.

6 Q. Were these military maps?

7 A. Yes, it would have pictures of military movements.

8 Q. Where did Mr. Dzemal Merdan, the deputy commander, where did he

9 have his office?

10 A. He had a small office to the side on the right, and it had a

11 connecting door into Hadzihasanovic's office.

12 Q. During the time you were deployed as the liaison officer for

13 BritBat in Zenica, who was your main point of contact with the ABiH 3rd

14 Corps?

15 A. Initially it was Hadzihasanovic, but then I was assigned a

16 liaison officer. So I would -- if I had sort of questions, I would ask

17 the -- Edo, the liaison officer. But you know, this was interspersed with

18 meetings with Hadzihasanovic and Merdan.

19 Q. Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber, sir, why a liaison

20 officer, the person with the name Edo, was assigned to you?

21 A. I understand from a conversation with Hadzihasanovic and

22 Lieutenant Colonel Duncan that he complained I was finding out too much

23 information and, therefore, he signed a liaison officer to me. So he was

24 sort of replicating what the British Battalion were doing.

25 Q. Whilst you were assigned as the liaison officer, did you ever

Page 4983

1 meet any other military unit commander of the ABiH 3rd Corps?

2 A. Yes. I met several. I remember meeting Kubura. I can't

3 remember the names of other commanders that I'd met, but I remember

4 meeting Kubura.

5 Q. Do you recall, sir, where you met Mr. Kubura?

6 A. At 3 Corps headquarters.

7 Q. What was Mr. Kubura's position at the time, to your knowledge?

8 A. He was the 7 Muslim Brigade commander.

9 Q. And where was the 7th Muslim Brigade headquarters?

10 A. It was located in Zenica. And I think, again, it may have been

11 located in an old school.

12 Q. How far was the 7th Muslim Brigade headquarters away from the 3rd

13 Corps headquarters?

14 A. It may have been a few miles, because it was on the other side of

15 town, if I remember correctly.

16 Q. Did you make any attempts to meet Mr. Kubura at other occasions?

17 A. Yes. I tried on several occasions to go to 7 Muslim Brigade

18 headquarters, but I was never allowed entry.

19 Q. Can you please provide us some more detail in that respect.

20 A. I'd turned up at the entrance to 7 Muslim Brigade, and I asked

21 the guard to see if I could organise a meeting, but I would never be

22 allowed to proceed further than the gate, so I would have to turn around

23 and carry on.

24 Q. Do you have any explanation why, as to why you were not allowed

25 to access the area of the 7th Muslim Brigade headquarters?

Page 4984

1 A. It may have been that they had received orders not to allow

2 anyone from UNPROFOR in, and that could be one possible explanation. Or

3 Kubura wasn't there. I just never seemed to be allowed in.

4 Q. Coming back to the meetings with Mr. Hadzihasanovic. At whose

5 request or at whose initiative did such meeting -- meetings take place?

6 A. Normally it would be through the British Battalion's initiative,

7 either myself organising the meeting, calling to see if I could see him

8 without having anything organised, or sometimes I would organise meetings

9 with Hadzihasanovic and Lieutenant Colonel Duncan.

10 Q. Whilst assigned between May and August in the area of Zenica, did

11 you travel a lot?

12 A. Yes, I travelled all around the region of Zenica, all around the

13 town, and then in the surrounding area as well.

14 Q. Were you allowed to travel freely?

15 A. Generally, yes. However, when we used to come across some

16 checkpoints, you know, we would be refused access. So therefore we'd have

17 to go and get authority from 3 Corps to have access to proceed through

18 that checkpoint.

19 Q. Was this a regular occurrence, that there were ABiH 3rd Corps

20 checkpoints and you were not allowed to get access?

21 A. Quite often it happened; and therefore, it would delay the whole

22 proceeding, because we would have to go and get the relevant piece of

23 paper, to get permission. And then once we got permission, we'd come back

24 to the checkpoint. And again, it still had to be confirmed by the brigade

25 headquarters - excuse me - to get through the checkpoint.

Page 4985

1 Q. Had to be confirmed by the 3rd Corps headquarters. Who actually

2 was in charge for issuing such permissions?

3 A. It was normally Merdan who was the man I'd normally have to get

4 the sign the piece of papers. Whoever had the authority, who they would

5 expect to sign it, would then allow us to go on our way.

6 Q. Was the 3rd Corps commander, Hadzihasanovic, also involved?

7 A. Yes. I think we -- on several occasions we had to get his

8 signature on a piece of paper to go through checkpoints.

9 Q. After you were deployed in the area of Zenica, sir, did there

10 come a time when you noticed foreigners in that area?

11 A. Yes. We met foreigners, apart from the international aid

12 community, we met people who were Mujahedin, who'd travelled from Turkey

13 and other Muslim countries to help fight for the Muslims in the war.

14 Q. These Mujahedin, were they armed?

15 A. Yes. They -- when they were out on the ground, they were

16 generally well armed. They had automatic weapons, grenades and

17 rocket-propelled grenades.

18 Q. When for the first time after you arrived in the area did you

19 notice such well-armed Mujahedin?

20 A. I first saw Mujahedin in Zenica at the end of May, I met them in

21 a suburb of Zenica. They weren't armed at that stage, because I was just

22 having a meeting within a cafe bar which I think they had taken over.

23 Q. These Mujahedin, did they wear military uniforms?

24 A. Yes, they generally wore a uniform. They had -- quite often had

25 a shawl, which is from that region. And they also had sort of -- I

Page 4986

1 suppose you could describe them as having a sort of -- a typical Muslim

2 beard, had grown it.

3 Q. The uniforms they wore, did they display any military insignia?

4 A. Yes. They often they would have a badge on the shoulder to

5 represent the unit they belonged to.

6 Q. Sir, with the permission of the Trial Chamber, I'm going to show

7 you a photo board. It's Prosecution Exhibit P4. And we will use the

8 Sanction technology.

9 Sir, can you please have a look at the photo board in front of

10 you. And can you inform -- please inform the Trial Chamber whether the

11 Mujahedin you've seen in Zenica end of May 1993 wore or had any of the

12 patches displayed on this photo board on their uniforms.

13 A. Well, I remember seeing -- I couldn't say whether I'd seen the

14 patches in May. But generally the patches you saw were number 9 and 15.

15 I can't remember exactly if they had the patches on in May, but I

16 certainly remember seeing Mujahedin with patches on during my time there.

17 Q. When for the first time, if you do recall, when for the first

18 time have you seen Mujahedin wearing the patches you just identified?

19 A. I couldn't accurately give you a date or a time when I saw those

20 patches on.

21 Q. All right. Thank you.

22 To your knowledge, sir, which military unit did the Mujahedin

23 form part of?

24 A. Generally they -- they belonged to 7 Muslim Brigade.

25 Q. Is the 7th Muslim Brigade the ABiH military unit Mr. Kubura was

Page 4987

1 the commander of at the time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. To your knowledge - and I know you already mentioned it partially

4 earlier - to your knowledge, where did the Mujahedin come from? From

5 which foreign countries?

6 A. Generally, they came from Middle Eastern countries. The ones I

7 had met came from Turkey and Istanbul. There was one example of one

8 report of a Mujahedin coming from the UK.

9 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your permission,

10 I'm going to show the witness milinfosum number 30, dated 29th of May,

11 1993. The necessary copies are available. They are available in B/C/S,

12 in English, and for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, in French as well.

13 Q. Sir, can you please have a look at the milinfosum in front of

14 you. If I may draw your attention to paragraph 2 of this -- of this

15 milinfosum, which has the heading "Zenica."

16 The first sentence, sir, starts with: "The Zenica LO reports,

17 the following personality details for Zenica-based BiH brigades." Is the

18 Zenica LO referring to you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Under 2(b), there is mentioned 7th Muslim Brigade commander

21 Amir Kubura.

22 A. Yes. That's the information I found out that day.

23 Q. If I may, sir, draw your attention to paragraph 3 of this

24 milinfosum. It starts with "A recce C/S conducted an extensive tour of

25 the current line of confrontation." Can you please for the benefit of the

Page 4988

1 Trial Chamber explain to us what a "recce C/S," what does it mean?

2 A. This is short for a reconnaissance call sign, a recce call sign.

3 And they had obviously done a reconnaissance along the current line of

4 confrontation between the BiH and HVO forces.

5 Q. If I may draw your attention, sir, to paragraph 3 and then in

6 brackets (3). Can you please explain for the benefit of the Trial Chamber

7 what "GR 184056," what does it mean.

8 A. That is grid reference 184056.

9 Q. And can you please also for the benefit of the Trial Chamber

10 explain for what purpose grid references are used for.

11 A. This is to accurately map where certain instances where -- or

12 checkpoints where, you know, where people were.

13 Q. Would you be able, sir, if I would show you a map, to identify

14 this location which is identified by its grid reference on a map?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm now going to show

17 the witness a map. Unfortunately, this map is not available in Sanction

18 due to technical reasons, but we have the respective numbers of hard

19 copies.

20 Can the witness please put the map on the ELMO, please.

21 Q. Sir, is it possible for you to identify on this map, using the

22 grid reference in the milinfosum, the place, the location which is

23 identified under 3(3) of the milinfosum?

24 A. Yes. I'm just looking for the grid lines so I can accurately

25 give you the grid reference and point it to you.

Page 4989

1 Q. Please take your time, sir.

2 A. I'm sorry, I apologise. I can find the northings but I can't

3 find the eastings on this map.

4 Q. Would you be able, sir, without using the grid reference --

5 references to roughly describe the area which this grid reference is

6 making reference to?

7 A. I'll have a look. It's to the area of -- I can see from the

8 report it says Fazlici, which is 1805. Can you please, --

9 Q. Can you please, sir, encircle the location called Fazlici.

10 A. It's -- well, from --

11 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be provided with a text

12 liner.

13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

14 [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you, sir.

16 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes

17 to tender this map into evidence. If the witness could please date and

18 sign the map.

19 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Defence wishes to

21 intervene. But I, too, would like you to explain how on the basis of the

22 milinfosum, paragraph 3, how the witness is managing to locate the

23 position. Maybe that will be the question of the Defence.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, precisely so.

25 We wanted to know what the witness has actually done. Has he read out

Page 4990

1 from the map the name Fazlici referred in the milinfosum and encircled it,

2 which could be done by anyone, especially as the witness in answer to

3 previous questions from the Prosecutor said that he was throughout

4 stationed in Zenica, that he only moved around the environs of Zenica, and

5 that he was not assigned to tour the area beyond. So we do not see what

6 the purpose of this marking is, because unlike the witness we heard before

7 this witness, this witness has not provided a single piece of evidence

8 that would qualify him to mark these areas. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf, it would be

10 desirable for the witness to explain to us how, on the basis of the fact

11 that he has Fazlici 1805, how he has found the spot.

12 Mr. Witness, could you explain to us technically how GR 1805 is

13 found on this map. If Fazlici had not been indicated but GR 1805, would

14 you be capable of pointing out the spot on the basis of the map -- on this

15 map? First, what does the "GR" mean?

16 THE WITNESS: It means "grid reference," which therefore applies

17 to the map. And the two figures -- the four numbers represent the square

18 for that town.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So "GR" refers to the grid

20 reference, and the numbers to the squares; is that right? So

21 theoretically one should be able to find "G" and "R" on the map.

22 THE WITNESS: "GR" is the terminology to use. What you then look

23 on the map are the actual numbers. And one of the difficulties when I was

24 looking for number 3 was looking for the numbers going across the page

25 which would accurately give me the location of where that checkpoint was.

Page 4991

1 But I'd found "05" on the northing lines, so that pointed me to the right

2 area.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So 1805. And 18, is that a

4 vertical line or a horizontal line?

5 THE WITNESS: If I could show you on your map, sir. These

6 numbers here are known as northings, and you can see them going down that

7 way. So 05 should be that box. And then the numbers I couldn't make out

8 were the numbers going across the columns of the map, which I couldn't

9 see. Sorry.

10 MR. WITHOPF: [Microphone not activated]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Withopf.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, if I may please assist the

13 Trial Chamber.

14 Q. May I draw your attention, sir, to what's written under 3.A. and

15 I understand you were actually earlier on referring to this portion of the

16 milinfosum. It says "There are still the following checkpoints on the

17 road between Stara Bila and Fazlici." And then after "Fazlici" there's a

18 grid reference.

19 A. That's right, yes.

20 Q. How does this grid reference after Fazlici, namely 1805, how does

21 it correspond to the grid reference under (3), 184056?

22 A. The grid reference 184056 is obviously very close to Fazlici and

23 therefore we might be able to work out where this checkpoint is.

24 Q. Does this information contained in the milinfosum, together with

25 the map you have in front of you, allow you to identify the area which is

Page 4992

1 mentioned under 3(3) of the milinfosum as being Fazlici?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, again, the Prosecution

4 wishes to tender this map into evidence.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

6 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Mr. President, this map, first of all, was already tendered by

8 the Prosecution in a larger version at the very beginning. I think that

9 it is Exhibit Number P1. That was the first exhibit tendered by the

10 Prosecution.

11 Today the witness is being used to recognise a town. If for the

12 record the witness tells us that he saw Fazlici on the map because he saw

13 the word "Fazlici" written, the Defence has no objection. If the witness

14 is telling us that he recognises Fazlici on the basis of the grid

15 references provided in the milinfosum, then the Defence has an objection

16 because the witness is not capable with the map given him to identify the

17 coordinates, the grid references. He can find 05, and everyone can see

18 that on the map. The coordinates 05 doesn't even correspond to Fazlici.

19 058 may correspond to Fazlici but not 05. 05 corresponds to Orasac.

20 Whereas, the other coordinates cannot be seen on this map, and the witness

21 cannot tell us that grid reference 1805 corresponds to Fazlici.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you have heard the

23 technical remarks made. When you encircled "Fazlici," did you do that

24 because you saw in the milinfosum the name of Fazlici and you found it on

25 the map, or is it basically exclusively on the basis of your technical

Page 4993

1 knowledge, GR 1805, that you found Fazlici?

2 As you have taken the solemn declaration, you will give me an

3 answer telling the truth. What are you telling us?

4 THE WITNESS: I found Fazlici by using the grid reference on the

5 milinfosum.

6 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I think the witness has very clearly

7 answered the questions and addressed the concern of the Defence.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness tells us that

9 relying on his technical and military knowledge he was able to find

10 Fazlici, so that's it.

11 What can the Defence tell us? What do you wish to tell us?

12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I simply wish to confirm,

13 Mr. President, that when the witness tells us that he uses the coordinates

14 in the milinfosum, is he telling us that on the map in front of him that

15 Fazlici corresponds to the grid reference 1805? If that is the case, we

16 have no objection.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, witness, on the map, you

18 are identifying Fazlici on the basis of grid reference 1805. You are

19 telling us in the affirmative?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, before - and I would suggest we have

23 a break within a few minutes - but can this map please be given a

24 Prosecution exhibit number. I understand the Defence, after the

25 explanations by the witness, have no further objections in tendering it.

Page 4994

1 MR. DIXON: Sorry, Your Honour, could I just clarify one point,

2 and that's whether --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon, you have the floor.

4 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. I just want to clarify that

5 at this stage the Prosecution is only seeking to exhibit the map and not

6 the military information summary. Because we have some comments to make

7 in respect of whether this witness is the correct witness through this

8 which document could in fact be admitted. So if we could be given an

9 opportunity to address Your Honours on that point. But the way I

10 understand it is that at this stage only the map is being sought to be

11 tendered.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, at this stage, only the map is

13 sought being tendered. However, at a later stage obviously the

14 Prosecution wishes to tender the milinfosum as well.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. For the moment, we

16 are only being asked to admit the map.

17 As it is time for the break, we will come back and tell you what

18 we have decided about the map. And I invite everyone to be back here at

19 five to 11.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After having deliberated and

23 after having carefully examined the map and the grid reference 1805, the

24 Trial Chamber notes that in fact GR 1805, although it doesn't indicate

25 this exact place, is just above it. So as a result, we will give the

Page 4995

1 document in question a final exhibit number.

2 Mr. Registrar, could we have an exhibit number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P98.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

5 Mr. Withopf, please continue.

6 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.

7 Mr. President, Your Honours, as already foreshadowed prior to the

8 break, the Prosecution wishes to also tender into evidence the milinfosum

9 number 30, dated 29th of May, 1993. The witness is personally mentioned

10 in this milinfosum as the Zenica liaison officer. He was at the time.

11 The witness was able to comment on the statements that do form part of the

12 milinfosum, and for that reason the Prosecution wishes to tender this

13 milinfosum into evidence.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence may

15 comment on this. Before they do so, I'd like to point out that this

16 milinfosum document number 30 is dated the 29th of May, 1993. This date

17 is part of the relevant period that appears in the indictment. This

18 document refers to a liaison officer. We have this person in front of us.

19 He is our witness. And it is also interesting to point out that yesterday

20 the Defence requested that a document of this type be admitted into

21 evidence.

22 What does Mr. Dixon have to say about this matter?

23 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. It is correct that we have

24 asked for documents of this kind to be admitted, but we've done so on the

25 basis that the witness was able to identify relevant information in the

Page 4996

1 document or was associated with certain events in the document.

2 In this particular military information summary, the witness, as

3 he said in his testimony, was able to identify one part of it, that is,

4 paragraph 2, where he reported that the commander of the 7th Brigade was

5 Mr. Kubura. That's not a contentious point. But that is the only aspect

6 of the document that he has anything to do with, in our submission.

7 Paragraph 3, which is clearly the most important paragraph in the

8 document which the Prosecution seeks to rely upon, was one which involved

9 an incident where the witness was not present. This was as a result of a

10 recce which was conducting a tour along a confrontation line. And the

11 witness was not in the area at the time. He didn't gather this

12 information. This information was gathered by other persons, persons who

13 themselves could testify about these events before the Tribunal.

14 And, Your Honours, in our submission this is very significant,

15 because although the Prosecution doesn't emphasise the point, the only

16 reason why they're seeking to introduce this paragraph, surely, is because

17 of the presence of foreign fighters at a certain point. They are seeking

18 to use this document to prove the truth of its contents, to prove that

19 those persons were there at that time. This witness wasn't there at the

20 time. He can't testify about whether or not this document is accurate.

21 And the Defence are not in the position to be able to cross-examine him on

22 that point.

23 In addition, in his testimony earlier on, he indicated that these

24 reports were drawn up by intelligence officers. So he wasn't the person

25 drawing up the reports. They were put together by somebody else. He says

Page 4997

1 he did look at some of these reports from time to time. This may well be

2 one of the first times that the witness has seen this report or studied it

3 in any detail. And in our submission, we don't have, therefore, the

4 correct witness through which to introduce this document, which would

5 provide the Defence with a proper opportunity to -- to cross-examine on

6 the point of evidence, the presence of these fighters in a certain

7 position at a certain time. He didn't draw up the report, and more

8 importantly, he wasn't there at the critical time. And on that basis, we

9 would ask Your Honours not to admit this document into evidence at this

10 stage. It can be marked for -- for identification, as has been done with

11 many other documents. And when the appropriate witness does arrive, then

12 the matter could be reconsidered at that time. I'm grateful,

13 Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16 General Hadzihasanovic's Defence counsel agrees with the arguments

17 presented by Mr. Kubura's Defence. Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.

19 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, if I may please

20 briefly respond.

21 We are at the very similar, if not the say, the very same

22 situation yesterday. And as Your Honour, the Presiding Judge, already

23 pointed out, yesterday the Prosecution at no point in time did object to

24 any of the milinfosums presented by the Defence being tendered, although

25 in all such instances only very small portions of the milinfosum were the

Page 4998

1 subject of any comments by the witness. This situation is exactly the

2 very same as yesterday, when documents presented -- milinfosums presented

3 by the Defence were tendered into evidence.

4 I also wish to draw the attention of the Trial Chamber to the

5 fact that the milinfosums are official documents, official documents of

6 BritBat and official documents of UNPROFOR, an UN -- official UN

7 organisation. The witness was able, Mr. President, Your Honours, to

8 comment on contents of the milinfosum in question. The witness attended

9 the regular 6.00 p.m. briefing meetings in Vitez in which such issues were

10 discussed. And the witness himself was making reference to the fact that

11 he has seen Mujahedin in Zenica and in the area surrounding Zenica.

12 Therefore, the Prosecution is of the view that this document, this

13 milinfosum, can be tendered into evidence and reiterates its request to do

14 so.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are there any other questions

16 you would like to ask the witness about the document, or have you finished

17 the questions you had about the document? Mr. Withopf, are there any

18 other questions you wanted to ask about any other parts of the document?

19 MR. WITHOPF: Just for clarification - and this may assist the

20 Trial Chamber in its final determination - if I may ask the witness a

21 question in respect to Mujahedin camps. With your permission,

22 Mr. President.

23 Q. Sir --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But is this question one

25 that relates to this document or not?

Page 4999

1 MR. WITHOPF: It's not directly linked to this document, but it

2 may assist the Trial Chamber in making its final determination.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If that could help

4 us to take an informed decision, please go ahead with your question.

5 MR. WITHOPF: .

6 Q. Sir, during the time you were the liaison officer in Zenica and

7 the area surrounding Zenica, did you become aware of Mujahedin running any

8 camps in the area of Zenica or the surrounding area?

9 A. Yes. I was working with Norwegian's People Aid who were building

10 a refugee camp to the east of Zenica and they reported they had problems

11 with a Mujahedin training camp there and had asked for UNPROFOR assistance

12 to see if it could settle this matter.

13 Q. Were you present, sir, in the course of the regular 1800 hours'

14 meetings, briefing meetings, in Vitez at times when the Mujahedin issue

15 was raised and discussed during such meetings?

16 A. Yes, because I was sharing this information among with other

17 departmental heads in the British Battalion.

18 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

19 MR. WITHOPF: This additional information, Mr. President,

20 Your Honours, may assist the Trial Chamber in making its determination,

21 and the Prosecution reiterates its request to tender this document into

22 evidence.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

25 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

Page 5000

1 Defence would like to say that the questions that have just been put to

2 the witness don't -- won't enable the Trial Chamber to appreciate -- to

3 assess the truth, the value of the document. And I think that all the

4 issues -- all these issues have been raised by my colleague Mr. Dixon. If

5 we want to tender this document to say that -- to show that it's a BritBat

6 document, I don't think that the Defence objects to tendering the document

7 as such. The problem is the contents of the document.

8 The witness who is before the Trial Chamber today cannot provide

9 any information that would allow the Trial Chamber to verify the truth of

10 what is stated in paragraph 3. The Trial Chamber can take note of what is

11 in paragraph 2. The witness has told us today that via the contact that

12 he had he was aware of foreigners being present in the north of Zenica.

13 If we have a look at the map, Mr. President, we're not at all

14 referring to the same sector. We're not referring to the sector that the

15 witness was referring to. Later on we are certain that the witness will

16 talk about other meetings that he had, but what is mentioned in the

17 milinfosum is the Fazlici area, and that is not an area that was a part of

18 the area of responsibility of this witness. He says that he may have

19 heard this being discussed at meetings held at 6.00. These subjects were

20 discussed. But the fact that he heard about it is one thing; the fact

21 that he doesn't know who he heard it about -- who he heard it is another

22 matter. And today he cannot recall what is called the call sign in

23 paragraph 3; that means the vehicle, the team, the patrol who made these

24 observations. If the witness can say that yes, it's call sign 34 which

25 accompanied the platoon, in such a case this could give additional weight

Page 5001

1 to the probative value of the contents of the document. But how can we

2 give any probative value at the moment to an affirmation, to a claim that

3 is of great importance for our case. Given that the witness didn't

4 observe the area, he didn't know who made these observations, perhaps the

5 witness heard information about foreign soldiers.

6 But for all these reasons, Mr. President, it's Rule 89(C) that

7 should be respected by the Trial Chamber in this case; that is to say, it

8 has to do with the probative value and the right for a fair trial that the

9 accused have. How can we question this witness if he didn't see this

10 himself and doesn't know who provided this information? And for these

11 reasons, Mr. President, we think that if the Trial Chamber decides to

12 admit this document they should take into account the comments made by the

13 Defence. The only probative value of this document relates to the truth

14 of paragraph 2.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf, I'll let you

16 take the floor in a minute.

17 But first of all, Witness, when you had these meetings which took

18 place at 6.00, how many of you were there? There was

19 Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, the information officer, the liaison officer.

20 How many of you were there at the table?

21 THE WITNESS: Approximately about 20 people perhaps.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, there were about 20

23 of you.

24 And the patrols, did they have radio links with the command unit?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, they would have radio links with the command

Page 5002

1 unit, and the information would have been passed on when they came --

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The unit which

3 hasn't been identified which was on patrol and which saw Mujahedin in the

4 place in question, did this unit report via radio, or was it the person in

5 charge of the unit who was one of the 20 persons at the table?

6 THE WITNESS: I couldn't say how this was reported, whether it

7 was from radio message or whether it was a face-to-face meeting with the

8 intelligence officer. And therefore, it may not have been anyone at that

9 meeting who was present.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you discussed various

11 issues at these meetings and you knew that there was a report that was

12 going to be forwarded to your superiors, since these reports were intended

13 for various superiors, did they sometimes fail to mention certain events

14 in these reports if these events weren't sure? Did your colonel say,

15 "Yes, you have informed me of this, but I'm not going to take this into

16 account because it hasn't been verified, it's not certain"? Or did these

17 reports contain everything that was said without any checks having been

18 carried out?

19 THE WITNESS: These reports were compiled by the people involved

20 debriefing to the intelligence officer. So he would compile the

21 information.

22 At the meeting at 6.00, we were given an overview of the day's

23 activities by the intelligence officer as a result of his meetings with

24 the people who had seen events on the ground.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I have understood you

Page 5003

1 correctly, it's the intelligence officer who would compile the report. He

2 drafted the report.

3 When you're mentioned as the liaison officer, did you make an

4 oral report or a written one? If you made a written report, he would

5 mention your report in -- in his report, or was there a record of the

6 meeting which would state that you spoke to mention an event? How did

7 these things happen? Did this intelligence officer compile a report on

8 the basis of the written documents provided by other persons, or was it a

9 document that was a record of the meeting that took place and which was

10 attended by the 20 persons we have mentioned?

11 THE WITNESS: These meetings I orally gave him the information,

12 which he would then compile into the milinfosum. So he would take notes

13 during our meeting to do an accurate report later on that evening.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're telling us that

15 during the meeting with the intelligence officer -- what was his name?

16 THE WITNESS: His name is Simon Harrison.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this intelligence officer

18 would take notes. And then on the basis of these notes, he would compile

19 his report.

20 Very well. Mr. Withopf, we now have a better understanding of

21 how this document was compiled. What do you have to say before we

22 withdraw to deliberate briefly?

23 MR. WITHOPF: Certainly, Mr. President, Your Honours, the witness

24 was able to provide additional information in favour -- in the view of the

25 Prosecution, in favour of the Prosecution's request to tender this

Page 5004

1 document into evidence.

2 If I may briefly respond to my learned friend's submission.

3 These are issues that have been discussed repeatedly. It appears to me

4 that my learned friend from the Defence side is mixing up two issues. The

5 one is the question of the admissibility of documents; and the other issue

6 is the probative value of such a document. The probative value has

7 nothing to do with the issue of admissibility of the document. And the

8 second issue is the issue of hearsay. Hearsay, as this Trial Chamber has

9 repeatedly ruled upon, is admissible, and the probative value will be

10 determined later on in the course of these proceedings. Therefore, the

11 Prosecution again reiterates its request to tender this document into

12 evidence.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Bourgon, I'll let you

14 take the floor for one last time, because this shouldn't turn into a

15 ping-pong game.

16 But we should point out, as the Prosecution has stated, two

17 matters should be distinguished, admissibility of a document, which is

18 based on the relevance of certain facts, and then the probative value of a

19 document. And this is for the Trial Chamber to decide at a subsequent

20 date. Mixing up these two matters can cause such problems.

21 If a document is admitted, this doesn't mean that the contents of

22 the document have probative value. The probative value of the document is

23 for the Trial Chamber to decide on at a subsequent date.

24 So I see that there's some confusion as to the distinction

25 between admissibility and probative value. The probative value is a

Page 5005

1 matter to be determined at a subsequent date once the Trial Chamber has

2 all the information at its disposal. All the more so in that there will

3 be other witnesses who will be appearing and who will be referring to

4 certain matters mentioned in this document. That is certain. So I don't

5 see why this document shouldn't be admitted at this stage. But we'll

6 deliberate about this.

7 Mr. Bourgon.

8 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We agree

9 with the Trial Chamber that there is a difference to be made between the

10 admissibility of a document and the probative value that a document should

11 be given. These are two entirely different matters, and the Defence is

12 not confusing these matters.

13 Nevertheless, there is a link between the two. This is referred

14 to in Rule 89(C), which says that if the probative value is far lower than

15 the relevance of the document and it could be detrimental to a fair trial,

16 in such a case there is a relation between the two ideas. These are two

17 different matters, but there is a link. And our argument today,

18 Mr. President, is that the probative value that we might give a document

19 that hasn't been established by the witness, and if the witness doesn't

20 know who provided the information, all the witness can tell us about is

21 how the document was compiled, well, that's one matter. But I'll go back

22 to the first issue, Mr. President.

23 Why does the Prosecution want to tender this document? Does it

24 want to tender the document to show that it exists? We don't object to

25 that. But is it to show that the contents are true? In such a case the

Page 5006

1 Defence stands by its objection. Thank you, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will withdraw.

3 Don't move. We'll be back in a few minutes.

4 --- Break taken at 11.27 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As I said, the Trial Chamber

7 has deliberated in order to decide whether this milinfosum number 30,

8 dated the 29th of May, 1993 should be admitted into evidence.

9 It is the opinion of the Trial Chamber that this document should

10 be admitted. The Defence argued that with regard to the fact that it was

11 stated there were Mujahedin in a certain place and that the witness didn't

12 see this himself. The Trial Chamber takes note of the Defence's position,

13 and the Trial Chamber will clarify this issue mentioned in the report.

14 But the witness wasn't an eyewitness of this event. It's just

15 based on hearsay. But that's not the only point referred to in the

16 document. The witness himself has mentioned other events mentioned in

17 paragraph 2, and as a result, as we did yesterday, we believe that this

18 document can be admitted into evidence. We believe that Rule 89 has been

19 respected, since the Defence in the course of its cross-examination can go

20 back to the issue and ask the witness all the appropriate questions.

21 So Mr. Registrar, could we have a number, please.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P99.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P99.

24 Please continue, Mr. Withopf.

25 Just a moment. The witness needs to sign and date this document.

Page 5007

1 Witness, will you please put your name and today's date on this

2 document.

3 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As there's a document

5 translated into B/C/S, into French, and into English, we need numbers for

6 all three language versions.

7 Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the B/C/S version gets the exhibit

9 number P99/BCS; the French version gets the exhibit number P99/F.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Withopf, please

11 proceed.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

13 Q. Sir, a few minutes ago you already made reference to an issue

14 related to Mujahedin and a location called Arnauti. Can you please

15 provide the Trial Chamber with additional information on this issue.

16 A. Sorry, I didn't catch that. Did you say please ...?

17 Q. Can you please tell us more about this issue related to Arnauti.

18 MR. DIXON: Sorry, Your Honour, I don't wish to interrupt soon

19 again, but the witness never gave a name for where a particular camp might

20 have been situated.

21 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, if --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that was my understanding.

23 Mr. Withopf, when the witness answered the question put to him,

24 did he mention this locality? I think not. But we need to check on the

25 transcript.

Page 5008

1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, if you allow me to briefly consult

2 the transcript.

3 Mr. President, Your Honours, it appears to be correct that the

4 location which is known as Arnauti has not yet been mentioned by the

5 witness, and I do apologise.

6 Q. Sir, were you yourself during the time you were the liaison

7 officer between BritBat and the 3rd Corps, the ABiH 3rd Corps, were you

8 involved in any issues related to Mujahedin?

9 A. We got a call from the Norwegian's People Aid, who were based

10 east of Zenica in the Arnauti area, where they were building a refugee

11 camp. They had complained of a Mujahedin training area being located next

12 to it. And they were coming across saying that this refugee camp shouldn't

13 be built and they were planning to build a mosque. I had been called in,

14 as this was in the -- my area of responsibility, to see if we could

15 resolve the issue.

16 Q. And can you please also inform the Trial Chamber whether you were

17 able to resolve the issue; and if so, what you experienced while doing so.

18 A. We met at the Norwegian's People Aid location, where three, maybe

19 four Mujahedin members came across there. We had a meeting which was very

20 heated. And after quite a long discussion, we managed to settle the

21 disagreement and the Mujahedin would allow the Norwegian's People Aid to

22 have their refugee camp there.

23 Q. Does Arnauti, the location called Arnauti, does it fall within

24 the area of responsibility of the ABiH 3rd Corps?

25 A. Yes, it does.

Page 5009

1 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be given the Prosecution

2 Exhibit P98. That's the map used earlier on today.

3 Q. Sir, can you please put it on the ELMO and can you please, if

4 possible, identify on this map the location which you were just talking

5 about and which is called Arnauti.

6 A. Yes. I'm pointing to it now.

7 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be provided with a text

8 marker.

9 Q. And, sir, can you please encircle the location which is known as

10 Arnauti.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Is this the area where the Mujahedin had their camp?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 MR. WITHOPF: The map can be removed from the witness.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.

17 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Such an event as you just described, sir, with the Mujahedin in

19 Arnauti and the Norwegians complaining about them, would it have been an

20 issue you would have reported at the daily regular 1800 hours' meeting?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm now going to show

23 the witness milinfosum number 33 [sic], dated the 5th of June, 1993. We

24 have the necessary copies available in B/C/S and in English. Once the

25 French translations will be available, they will be tendered, if the

Page 5010

1 Trial Chamber allows us to tender the document.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. WITHOPF: I understand -- my case manager is just drawing my

4 attention to the fact that the milinfo number is not correctly reflected

5 in the transcript. It's milinfo number 37 -- sorry -- yes, 37.

6 Q. Sir, if I may draw your attention to page 3 of this milinfosum,

7 the portion number 10, paragraph number 10. And if you may, please, focus

8 on the section under capital letter B.

9 It says at the beginning "The Zenica LO reports the following,"

10 and then there are the capital letters, first A and then B.

11 Sir, are you the Zenica LO, meaning liaison officer, who is

12 referred to in this document?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Sir, have you reported what's written in this document under

15 10.B?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is the location which is detailed under 10.B as Arnauti, is this

18 the very same location you just marked at the map Prosecution Exhibit 98?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you, sir, please provide the Trial Chamber with some more

21 information in respect to what it mean that "the Mujahedin have confirmed

22 that they run a training camp in the area of Arnauti."

23 A. With my discussions with the Mujahedin, that they confirmed that

24 they were running a training camp in that area.

25 Q. Does it mean, sir, that you yourself met the Mujahedin who ran

Page 5011

1 the training camp in Arnauti and that you yourself had talked to them?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what's written in this milinfosum under 10.B, is it the

4 result of what they told you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Sir, may I in addition draw your attention to the portion under

7 number 5 of the very same milinfosum, number 5, which has the heading

8 "Zenica." My first question, sir: Did Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, did he

9 meet, to your knowledge, with Mr. Hadzihasanovic?

10 A. He met him on many occasions, and obviously the commanding

11 officer, Alastair Duncan, is reporting here in the milinfosum that -- the

12 result of that meeting.

13 Q. Have you, sir, have you been present at such meetings?

14 A. I was present at meetings, but not all of them.

15 Q. Did the commanding officer, Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, report

16 about such meetings at the daily 0800 [sic] hours' meetings in Vitez?

17 A. Yes, he did.

18 Q. Were you regularly present when Mr. Duncan reported at such

19 meetings?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did he, to your knowledge, whenever he met with

22 Mr. Hadzihasanovic report about the meeting?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he report about what has been discussed, addressed at such

25 meetings and what Mr. Hadzihasanovic said at such meetings?

Page 5012

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. May I please draw your attention, sir, to the section under 5,

3 which is identified as "comment." This is at the very end of section 5.

4 There it says, and I quote it, that "The BiH were no longer prepared to

5 restrain themselves and were likely to take the military initiative in the

6 Lasva Valley where they enjoy a tactical advantage over the HVO."

7 Sir, based on what you've seen on the ground and of what you got

8 to know talking to the many other people you were referring to earlier on

9 in your today's testimony, based on the reports by

10 Lieutenant Colonel Duncan at the daily 1800 meetings in Vitez, based on

11 this information, would you share the views expressed in this comment?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes

14 to tender this milinfosum into evidence, please.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm listening.

16 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17 First of all, the first comment regarding the paragraphs that the

18 witness has referred to. We have absolutely no objection on the

19 paragraphs about which he was able to provide information to the Chamber.

20 Under the reservation of the decision taken by the Chamber on a similar

21 document, we have the same objections to make, that the probative value of

22 the other paragraphs will depend on the judgement of the Chamber made

23 subsequently.

24 But I would like to add -- I wanted to do it at the beginning,

25 but I preferred to allow the Prosecution to continue -- and that is that

Page 5013

1 the document such as it is presented to us now is accompanied by a

2 translation into B/C/S. As we mentioned to you earlier on, Mr. President,

3 the Defence is not informed in advance of the documents that will be used

4 through a particular witness. In this case, this translation was never

5 provided to us earlier on, and we were never able to discuss the contents

6 of it with the Prosecution.

7 Mr. President, we hesitate as to what to do in such a situation.

8 What we would like, Mr. President, would be for the Prosecution to

9 indicate to us which document they intend to use in continuation of the

10 examination-in-chief of this witness and the next witness so that we can

11 check that we have the translations in B/C/S, as applies to all the

12 documents on the list that need to be disclosed to the Defence, as covered

13 by the pre-trial brief of the Prosecution, so that we might discuss with

14 the accused the contents of these documents to be able to prepare

15 ourselves properly.

16 Therefore, we do not object to the admission of this document

17 under the reservation of the question of translation, but we would like to

18 Chamber to ask the Prosecution to provide us with the other documents or

19 to inform us of the numbers of the documents that will be used in

20 continuation so that we can check whether we have those documents

21 translated into B/C/S.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Withopf, regarding

23 this particular point that affects the rights of the accused, we have an

24 official document coming from the British Battalion, and this document and

25 its content is officially stamped, though there is no trace of the stamp.

Page 5014

1 It would appear that these documents communicated to the parties, be it

2 the Prosecution or the Defence, were redacted of other elements, because

3 there should be stamps, et cetera. This is one point which I wish to

4 underline.

5 On the other hand, regarding the rights of the accused, it is

6 necessary for them to be able to judge the translation into their own

7 language and to study the various paragraphs which may contain elements

8 against him. It is true that if a document of several pages is produced

9 at the last moment, the accused is in an inferior position because he

10 doesn't have time to examine the document. He's handicapped by the fact

11 that he cannot read the document in his own language. And though he's

12 assisted by lawyers who have command of English, but that is no reason for

13 the accused not to be able to have their say.

14 As pointed out quite rightly by the Defence counsel, the Chamber

15 is of the opinion that when you plan to tender a document into evidence,

16 because this document which appears on your consolidated list must have

17 been assessed by your side and you knew that you were going to tender it

18 into evidence, and therefore you should have at least informed the Defence

19 of your intention, providing them with a translation of that document so

20 that the Defence might, during the cross-examination, ask appropriate

21 questions. Otherwise, there's disequilibrium. And what has been just

22 said also applies to the Defence, which may have documents in B/C/S which

23 the Prosecution has no command of, and then we will have the same sort of

24 situation. And this remark applies to the Defence. If they intend to

25 tender certain documents they have, they need to have them translated into

Page 5015

1 English so that you can convey your opinion about them.

2 So we have a real problem here which needs to be taken into

3 consideration. I give you the floor, Mr. Withopf --

4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. President, for a

5 point of clarification. The first document, we didn't receive the

6 translation but we have found a translation of the document of the 5th of

7 June. This is the document which the Prosecution is tendering now. So we

8 did receive a translation. We do not wish to mislead the Chamber. And a

9 very brief adjournment would allow us to discuss with the Prosecution the

10 documents that we have received and which we have not so as to avoid any

11 further problem.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the document of the 5th of

13 June, 1993 should have been communicated to the Defence if it was on the

14 consolidated list. And this document should have been accompanied with a

15 B/C/S translation.

16 Mr. Withopf.

17 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I'm a bit surprised, to phrase it

18 politely -- I'm a bit surprised about the concerns raised by the Defence.

19 The document milinfosum number 37, dated the 5th of June, 1993

20 was disclosed in its English original on the 11th of September, 2001 to

21 the Defence, and the B/C/S translation was also disclosed in August 2001

22 to the Defence. That means Defence and the accused had two and a half

23 years' time to study this document, which is comprised of three pages.

24 I would wish, if Defence in future wishes to tell the

25 Trial Chamber that the Prosecution is not fulfilling its obligations, to

Page 5016

1 first consult the information which is at Defence counsel's disposal and

2 only later on make such observations as has just been made.

3 The Prosecution in anticipating such comments by Defence in this

4 particular -- and in respect to this particular witness has checked, prior

5 to the today's testimony of the witness, whether these documents are on

6 the exhibit list, and the Prosecution would be able to in respect to each

7 and every document it intends to use today to provide the Chamber with the

8 exact date as to when it has been disclosed in English and in B/C/S.

9 Again, I re-emphasise, this document has been disclosed in its

10 B/C/S translation two and a half years ago. The Prosecution reiterates

11 its request that this document be tendered into evidence.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall give the floor to

13 Mr. Bourgon in a minute.

14 But looking at the documents, we see that there's a number,

15 00273961, on the English text, which is proof that it was communicated to

16 the Defence, and the B/C/S version has another number, 03004069. So we

17 are told that the English document was disclosed to you on the 11th of

18 September, 2001 and the translation earlier, that is, August 2001. So

19 since you knew for a long time now that this witness was going to come and

20 that he belongs to the British Battalion, you should have expected this

21 type of report to be produced in support of the testimony of the witness.

22 So, Mr. Bourgon, are you going to tell me that it's a mistake?

23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Quite, Mr. President. It's a

24 mistake that I just told you. I took the floor before my colleague. I

25 told the Chamber that we didn't wish to mislead the Chamber, that we did

Page 5017

1 indeed receive the document of the 5th of June in B/C/S. However, the

2 previous document, dated in May, we did not receive it in B/C/S -- we did

3 not receive the translation of that document.

4 When a witness appears, we do our best to identify the documents

5 which will likely -- are likely to be used. Sometimes we may be mistaken

6 with the documents, but we do our best to find our documents and to check

7 whether we have a translation or not.

8 For the document of the 29th of May, we told the Prosecution that

9 we don't have that translation of that document. We still haven't

10 received it.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, we still have a

12 problem. The document of the 29th of May, which doesn't apparently have a

13 B/C/S translation. Could you tell us something about this document of the

14 29th of May. Where does the problem lie?

15 MR. WITHOPF: It may be correct - and I'm about to check

16 it - that this is the only document Defence hasn't received a B/C/S

17 translation. However, in the package Defence was provided with today, the

18 B/C/S translation forms part of.

19 If I may use this opportunity to draw the attention of the

20 Trial Chamber to what happens all the time in this courtroom. Whenever

21 Defence uses a document, Defence doesn't tell the Prosecution prior to

22 using this document. Only in very rare circumstances tells the

23 Prosecution five minutes prior to the court session that they want to use

24 a document and which document they wish to use. In terms of equality of

25 arms, this is certainly the very same situation for both parties. If the

Page 5018

1 Chamber - and I understand the Presiding Judge has already raised this

2 issue - if the Chamber wishes that the parties prior to the court session

3 tell the other party which document they wish to use, that should apply to

4 both parties, meaning that the Defence tells the Prosecution prior to the

5 court session which document they wish to use and provide the Prosecution

6 with an English translation of the document, if the original of this

7 document is only in B/C/S or any other language the Prosecution is not

8 able to understand.

9 The Prosecution so far didn't have a problem - I really wish to

10 emphasise this - with the procedure followed by the Defence, and we have

11 accepted it all the way through of this trial. However, if Defence wishes

12 to get such information days before the witness is called, this procedure

13 should apply vice versa as well.

14 The Prosecution is still prepared to continue on the basis as it

15 has been done in the past. However, if there would be a change, the

16 requirements should apply to the very same extent for both parties.

17 Thank you very much, Mr. President. And again, the Prosecution

18 reiterates its request to tender this milinfosum into evidence.

19 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'm

20 finding it a little difficult to follow my colleague. We haven't

21 complained about receiving or not receiving documents. The Prosecution is

22 in a certain position; the Defence in another position; and there really

23 are no problems as far as that is concerned.

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 5019

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.

18 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, we are in open session, and my

19 colleague -- colleague tells the Trial Chamber the names of witnesses.

20 The one or the other of these witnesses, even if they are so-called

21 international witnesses, may have security concerns. I don't think it's

22 appropriate to mention the names of the witnesses in public session. I

23 wish to have this redacted.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you

25 prepare an order to have the names mentioned redacted from the transcript,

Page 5020

1 because we don't know whether there will be any requests for protective

2 measures. But this is easy to deal with.

3 However, there are witnesses who will be appearing next week.

4 And apparently the Prosecution hasn't provided the Defence with the

5 translation of their statements into B/C/S.

6 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I also don't find it appropriate to

7 mention the names of other witnesses in front of a witness who is in the

8 courtroom. I find it highly problematic. I would recommend if this

9 discussion continues to usher the witness out of the courtroom.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But you want to

11 continue with the discussion about the translations, because the problem

12 isn't witness's names; the problem concerns the translations. We don't

13 necessarily have to refer to Person X, Y, or Z. The problem is there will

14 be witnesses, Witness X, Y, and Z, and their statements in English haven't

15 been translated into B/C/S. Am I right or not? It appears that the

16 Defence doesn't have a number of documents. But this can be dealt with

17 very rapidly.

18 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, what my learned friend from the

19 Defence side hasn't told the Trial Chamber, that these are, in the

20 majority, statements of witnesses whose statements were taken at the very

21 last stages of the investigation, meaning end of last year. The

22 Prosecution does follow the very regular proceedings; namely, request

23 translation immediately after the statement is in, and we are disclosing

24 at the very earliest opportunity once we received the translation. We are

25 working on a daily basis very close together with CLSS to

Page 5021

1 accommodate -- to accommodate the needs of Defence counsel, and we are, as

2 Defence is very well aware of, in almost all instances complying with our

3 legal obligations.

4 In the situations that there are problems, we regularly inform

5 Defence counsel as soon as we get to know, in order to avoid any further

6 problems. And the Prosecution, if I may add this, is taking care of the

7 wishes of Defence. For example, the Prosecution has, for the only reason

8 that Defence didn't have access to the ECMM materials, scheduled the ECMM

9 witnesses towards the very end of this trial in order to enable Defence to

10 properly prepare.

11 The Prosecution does appreciate that the Defence has the right

12 and has the need to timely prepare for the defence and it does everything,

13 each and everything what's possible to accommodate the particular needs of

14 the Defence. Whenever translations are available, they are disclosed

15 immediately.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will give a

17 number to the document dated the 5th of June, 1993.

18 Mr. Registrar, could we have a number for the English and for the

19 B/C/S versions, a final number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the English version gets the number

21 P100; and the B/C/S translation gets the exhibit number P100/BCS.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Mr. Withopf -- witness, could you make a note of your first and

24 last names on this document and also of today's date.

25 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

Page 5022

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf may then continue

2 with his examination-in-chief, given that these translation-related issues

3 have resulted in a loss of time.

4 Mr. Withopf, you may proceed.

5 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

6 Q. Sir, during the time you spent in Zenica as a liaison officer for

7 BritBat, did you become aware of situations that members of other

8 international organisations complained about the presence of Mujahedin in

9 the area?

10 A. Well, we had the aid organisation, the Norwegian's People Aid,

11 and there may have been other international organisations who have

12 complained when dealing with them. BritBat themselves had occasionally

13 difficulties when they were doing their patrolling.

14 Q. You earlier on, sir, mentioned that you on a very regular basis

15 and repeatedly had meetings with the 3rd Corps commander,

16 Mr. Enver Hadzihasanovic, in his headquarters in Zenica.

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 MR. WITHOPF: With the permission of the Trial Chamber, I'm now

19 going to show the witness a further milinfosum. It's the milinfosum

20 number 055, dated the 23rd of June, 1993.

21 For the information of the Trial Chamber and Defence counsel, the

22 English version has been disclosed on 7th of September, 2001. And

23 according to the information I have at my disposal now, the B/C/S version

24 has been disclosed on 10th of August, 2001.

25 Q. Sir, if I may, please, draw your attention to portion

Page 5023

1 number -- portions number -- paragraphs number 7 and 8, the portions on

2 page 3 with the heading "Zenica." And if I also may draw your attention,

3 sir, in particular to the portion under 8, please. May I please refer to

4 the portion, the very first six lines under paragraph 8. There's a

5 reference made to the following - and I quote - "The Zenica LO also noted

6 that 'Mujahedin' members were seen entering the ops room at 3 Corps

7 headquarters."

8 Sir, are you the Zenica LO referred to in this milinfosum?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you for the benefit of the Trial Chamber confirm today

11 whether what is written in this milinfosum and whether this particular

12 portion is correct, to your recollection.

13 A. Yes. Because this information I gathered out of -- debriefed the

14 intelligence officer who had compiled this report.

15 Q. If I may draw, sir, your attention to the portion which is

16 following the description "comment." May I draw your particular attention

17 to the following portion, which I'm going to quote now: "This cell

18 believes that they are under effective control as they are invariably

19 found at the point of 3rd Corps main effort. The recent campaign in the

20 Bila Valley clearly demonstrated this." And this portion - that was the

21 end of the quote - this portion is making, as can be seen from the

22 document, is making reference to the Mujahedin.

23 Sir, from what you have seen yourself, from the information you

24 were able to gather, from the daily 1800 hours' meetings in Vitez, based

25 on the information you got from talking to the various people you

Page 5024

1 mentioned today earlier on in your statement, is this statement that I

2 just quoted, is this a statement you would confirm?

3 A. Yes. I think this was -- having collected all the information,

4 the intelligence cell, we had been discussing were they under effective

5 control. And because they were seen as elite troops, they were used to

6 fight the war effectively where they were needed.

7 Q. Can you please expand on why they were seen as elite troops.

8 A. They were seen to be more committed, more determined, more

9 courageous in fighting the war for their fellow Muslim brothers, and

10 therefore it made good military sense to use, you know, the more effective

11 troops where they needed to capture important ground.

12 Q. And can you please, sir, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber

13 also explain what you understand under "they were used to fight the war

14 effectively where they were needed."

15 A. If there was a -- an area of tactical or strategic importance,

16 them being sort of considered better, more elite troops, were obviously

17 used to capture that ground.

18 Q. And to your knowledge and what you got to know as a result of the

19 daily meetings and as a result having talked to the variety of people you

20 mentioned earlier on today in your testimony, who was making the decision

21 to have the Mujahedin fighting with the other ABiH units?

22 A. Well, this was obviously a decision made by the 3 Corps chain of

23 command to locate their units in their appropriate place.

24 Q. Sir, if I may draw your attention to a further portion, in

25 paragraph 8, under "comment." And I'm quoting the portion I wish to draw

Page 5025

1 your attention to. It says: "Therefore, the labeling of them" - and

2 "them" is making reference to the Mujahedin - "as uncontrollable becomes a

3 convenient means of deflecting criticism away from 3rd Corps whilst still

4 utilising their proven tactical worth. In this context Hadzihasanovic's

5 letter to his superior command, requesting permission to deal with the

6 problem, might be regarded as rhetoric." May I please draw your attention

7 to this particular portion.

8 Sir, based on what you have seen yourself, based on what you got

9 to know in travelling in the area -- in the wider area of Zenica, based on

10 what you got to know attending -- regularly attending the 1800 hours'

11 meeting each and every day in Vitez, based on what you got to know in

12 talking to the variety of people you mentioned earlier on today during

13 your testimony, would you today, to your recollection, would you confirm

14 this statement?

15 A. Yes. This -- this would confirm what was happening at the time.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

17 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18 In the course of its cross-examination, the Defence will go into

19 detail to -- but we believe that it might be useful if the Prosecution is

20 ready to do this, it would be useful to know who made these comments. Was

21 it the witness? Was it the intelligence cell? Were they other officers?

22 This is all hearsay. The Trial Chamber has already rendered a decision

23 about hearsay and said that it was necessary to establish the source.

24 Will the source appear as a witness? Will we be provided with additional

25 information, or are we to base ourselves on hearsay alone? Is hearsay the

Page 5026

1 only element that the Prosecution can evoke when a witness appears and

2 then the witness says yes, that's his opinion. It's not just a matter of

3 a witness's opinion, we also need to know the source of hearsay evidence.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Prosecution has

5 shown you a document. In paragraph 8 of the document in question, there

6 is a comment in the middle of the paragraph and there is an assessment

7 that is made. So the question is: The comment, which is in fact a

8 conclusion based on a number of factors, whose comment is this? Who made

9 this comment? Did you do so? Did the intelligence officer do it? Did

10 Lieutenant Colonel Duncan make this comment? Or is this a summary of what

11 was said at the table, at the meeting on the 23rd of June? As far as you

12 are concerned, how can you clarify this for us? How can you clarify the

13 conclusion that is presented, the conclusion of a discussion that must

14 have taken place on that day? What can you tell us about this subject?

15 THE WITNESS: The comment is written by the intelligence officer,

16 and the word "this cell" is often known as an intelligence cell. So

17 that's where that phrase comes from. The intelligence officer will have

18 compiled the -- the reports that, for instance, I made as liaison officer

19 and combined it with also Colonel Alastair Duncan's meetings and

20 information. So he had the benefit of collating all the information from

21 the different departments within the British Battalion, and he would write

22 the comment. So there, as a result of debriefings he'd received from me,

23 you know, he would also sort of analyse this and sort of put that comment

24 in at the end.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, when the

Page 5027

1 report was completed, was it submitted to the lieutenant colonel, to

2 Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, for -- for it to be approved of? Did he read

3 through the final document, or did he not do so? Was it just forwarded

4 further up the chain of command, forwarded to other authorities? Was this

5 document reread and approved by Lieutenant Colonel Duncan? What could you

6 us about this?

7 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that he always read all of them before

8 they were sent off, but I'm sure there must have been occasions when he

9 read them before they were sent up the chain of command.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for this explanation.

11 Mr. Withopf, we have a few more minutes before our break. But we

12 could have our break now.

13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I'm actually about to finish the

14 examination-in-chief. If you'd allow me five additional minutes, I would

15 finish the examination-in-chief.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have your five minutes.

17 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

18 Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes to tender

19 milinfosum number 055, dated 23rd of June, 1993 into evidence, please.

20 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Subject to certain provisions, the

21 paragraph which was discussed by the witness and the other paragraphs, so

22 the Defence stands by its objections, Mr. President. Thank you.

23 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. I don't want to trample

24 over old ground, but we are in the same situation again where the comment

25 that was made is not one which was made by -- by this witness. It's

Page 5028

1 recorded in the -- the summary, but the witness has said this is a comment

2 of somebody else.

3 Of course, Your Honour, I understand the distinction between

4 admissibility and probative value; that's the position the Defence has

5 propagated on numerous occasions. But there is also the -- seeking to

6 obtain the best evidence in a trial. The best [Realtime transcript read

7 in error "Bosanski Samac"] evidence rule is a well-known rule in criminal

8 law and international criminal law. And we, in our submission, should

9 guard against introducing a string of hearsay statements and comments when

10 it is quite possible for Your Honours to hear the evidence from the person

11 directly. And that's the only caution I -- I wish to make.

12 In addition to that, Your Honours, the only observation would be

13 that when this witness was asked to comment on this comment, it -- it was

14 a situation where the comment was read out to the witness and he was

15 simply asked to -- to confirm it. Your Honours might think that is one of

16 the more extreme forms of -- of leading a witness. The witness could have

17 been asked what his views were without showing him this document. He made

18 certain observations at the time. He could have been asked to give his

19 opinion without being shown the comment of somebody else who might not

20 even be called as a witness. I'm grateful, Your Honours.

21 Sorry, there is one correction to the transcript. I see "the

22 best evidence rule" was translated as "the Bosanski Samac evidence rule."

23 And I certainly wasn't referring to that as a new rule of evidence on

24 international criminal law. It's the best evidence rule. Thank you,

25 Your Honours.

Page 5029

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Mr. Withopf.

3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, the last issue is certainly an issue

4 both Defence and Prosecution can agree upon.

5 In respect - and I'm referring to the Bosanski Samac rule

6 obviously, to avoid any confusion.

7 In respect to the other comments made my learned friend, it

8 appears to be quite important, and that's the reason why the Prosecution

9 is using the milinfosums. It appears to be quite important to emphasise

10 that the milinfosums, as two witnesses meanwhile have confirmed, were

11 compiled and put together the day of the regular 1800 meetings in Vitez.

12 What's written in the milinfosum reflects the level of information which

13 was compiled by BritBat at the time.

14 The witness has not only commented on the portion that's

15 contained in the milinfosum. The witness has been asked whether he, based

16 on the various sources of information he had at his disposal, is able to

17 confirm, based on his own knowledge - and that was the obvious gist of the

18 question - whether he is able to confirm based on his own knowledge the

19 comments made by somebody else, and the witness has clearly answered this

20 question to the positive. Therefore, this is not an issue of hearsay;

21 this is the witness's own account.

22 Again, the Prosecution reiterates its request to tender this

23 document into evidence, please.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have any other

25 questions?

Page 5030

1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, this is the last question to the

2 witness, and the examination-in-chief would be finished once the

3 Trial Chamber has made its decision in respect to tendering this document

4 into evidence.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll inform you of

6 our decision a little later. It's twenty-five to 1.00, and we will resume

7 at 1.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber is rendering its

11 ruling regarding the admission of Exhibit 55 -- or rather, milinfosum 55,

12 dated the 23rd of June, 1993.

13 The Chamber asks the registrar to give it an exhibit number. The

14 Chamber has taken note of the observations made by Mr. Dixon. Clearly

15 this document could also have been introduced when a future witness comes.

16 But as we have a witness who is confirming the elements contained in this

17 document, it is convenient to admit it, though it could be admitted on

18 another occasion.

19 In any event, the probative value will be determined

20 subsequently.

21 Mr. Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will get the exhibit

23 number P101; and the B/C/S translation, the exhibit number P101/BCS.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Mr. Withopf.

Page 5031

1 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

2 As foreshadowed prior to the break, the Prosecution has no

3 further questions at this point in time.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have taken note

5 of that for what you said in particular "for the moment," or "at this

6 point in time."

7 We give the floor now to the Defence for their cross-examination.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kiggell.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. I'm Edina Residovic, and I am Defence counsel for

13 General Enver Hadzihasanovic. In accordance with the Rules and the

14 practice of this Trial Chamber, I will first ask you some general

15 questions regarding the situation about which you're able to testify, on

16 the basis of your knowledge of the facts while you were in the territory

17 of Central Bosnia. I will also have some questions to you linked to

18 today's testimony. If any of my questions is unclear or too

19 comprehensive, please tell me to make myself clearer.

20 Mr. Kiggell, you said that you started your military career in

21 the British Army in 1987; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. To the completion of training in December 1988 in the rank of

24 second lieutenant, you were designated to a platoon commander attached to

25 the Prince of Wales Own Regiment; is that right?

Page 5032

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In January 1990, you were deployed to Northern Ireland, where you

3 served for about four to five months; is that right?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Upon your return from Northern Ireland, you became commander of a

6 military team, a duty that you performed for about 14 months; is that

7 right?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Then again in November 1991, you were sent to Northern Ireland

10 again, and you stayed in that position for about half a year; is that

11 right?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. In answer to a question from my learned friend, you said that you

14 attended a major course, which you completed in December 1992; is that

15 right?

16 A. That is correct, yes.

17 Q. After completing this course, you returned to the Prince of Wales

18 Own Battalion, and you were appointed second-in-charge of the company; is

19 that right?

20 A. That's correct. It was "C" Company.

21 Q. In answer to a question from my colleague, you also said that at

22 the beginning of 1993 you were informed that you would be deployed in

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that so?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. The assignment was part of the peace mission of the

Page 5033

1 United Nations, known as UNPROFOR for short; isn't that so?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. In order to prepare for your future assignments and mission, in

4 March 1993 you attended several training courses designed to familiarise

5 you with the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina; isn't that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Before that, in view of the work you did in the British Army, you

8 didn't have any specific knowledge about Bosnia and Herzegovina and what

9 was going on there, did you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. During your training, you were informed about the military

12 situation in the area where you were going on mission, weren't you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you arrived in Split, you also received some information

15 regarding the fighting and the locations of those battles, as well as

16 about the forces participating in those battles; isn't that right?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. You had particular interest in receiving the information relevant

19 to Central Bosnia, where you were assigned to, and you received that

20 information, didn't you?

21 A. Yes, we did, and also what was happening in the Tuzla region.

22 Q. On the basis of all these training courses and briefings, at the

23 time you arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina you knew that Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina was one of the six republics of the former SFRY which in 1992

25 was granted its independence. Were you aware of that?

Page 5034

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You also knew that in May 1992 it was admitted as a member of the

3 United Nations organisation, didn't you?

4 A. I must have done at the time, yes. I can't remember the exact

5 date.

6 Q. You probably learnt about the fact that on the day of its

7 recognition Bosnia and Herzegovina was attacked by the Yugoslav army and

8 Serb forces. Were you aware of that fact?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Upon arriving in Bosnia and Herzegovina, though you had

11 significant military experience behind you, nevertheless you didn't have

12 any experience in combat areas, in war-riddled areas; is that right?

13 A. No. The operational tours I did in Northern Ireland were to do

14 with terrorists, but not open civil war as was occurring in Bosnia.

15 Q. During your trainings, did the information you receive tell you

16 that what was going on in Bosnia and Herzegovina was a civil war?

17 A. I think -- I think the terminology of "civil war," it was a war

18 going on within the different republics within the former Yugoslavia, so

19 my terminology may have not been correct in that last answer I gave you.

20 Q. Thank you for your clarification.

21 Before coming to Bosnia and Herzegovina, you had never taken part

22 in peace missions of the United Nations, nor did you have any such

23 experience, did you?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. You arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina, as you have already told

Page 5035

1 us, in April; to be specific, on the 28th of April, 1993. And as you

2 already said, you were put up in the old school in Nova Bila, a few

3 kilometres from Vitez; isn't that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Before you, the Cheshire Regiment was part of the British forces,

6 and they left the area on the 11th of May, 1993; is that right?

7 A. I can't remember the exact date, but it must have been early May

8 they left.

9 Q. In any event, you can confirm that for a while, for 7 to 15 days,

10 you were together with your colleagues who were on mission in the area

11 before you.

12 A. Yes, that's true.

13 Q. During this joint stay in the area of Central Bosnia, you learnt

14 additional things from your colleagues about the situation in the area of

15 Vitez and the broader area of Central Bosnia; isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes, that's true. I went into Zenica with some of the members of

17 the Cheshire Battalion. And then a few days later, I was also sent up to

18 Tuzla to hand over that region from the departing liaison officer.

19 Q. You were familiar with the Security Council resolution

20 establishing the mandate of UNPROFOR, which means also the mandate for

21 your own battalion.

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. You knew, didn't you, that the previous mandate of UNPROFOR was

24 inadequate and that in September 1992 the Security Council extended the

25 mandate of UNPROFOR, assigning it to protecting land convoys of

Page 5036

1 humanitarian aid organised by UNHCR and also to protect the International

2 Red Cross Committee's work in the exchange of prisoners? Were you aware

3 of this extended mandate of UNPROFOR?

4 A. I can't recall the change, but I certainly remember the role that

5 we had to protect the humanitarian aid convoys and help where was

6 required.

7 Q. So what I have just said was the mandate given to your mission in

8 Central Bosnia, wasn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Additionally, you were entitled to use arms for self-defence;

11 that is, should you be attacked in performing your duties. Isn't that

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. From early May, from the 1st to the 21st of May, you were on duty

15 in Tuzla, where a part of the BritBat was being set in motion; and then on

16 the 23rd of May, you returned to Vitez again. Is that right?

17 A. That's about right in time, yes.

18 Q. Precisely during that period the command of your battalion

19 decided to deploy liaison officers in what it considered to be important

20 strategic areas so as to have a clearer idea of what was going on on the

21 ground in the military, social, and political spheres. Was that at the

22 time of your return?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Your battalion commander was Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, wasn't

25 he?

Page 5037

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Duncan reviewed this decision and agreed about

3 it with the commander of the 3rd Corps, General Hadzihasanovic, as well as

4 with HVO commanders, didn't he?

5 A. I think he set the ground for liaison officers to be assigned to

6 various -- the 3 Corps and HVO components. Whether he did it before or

7 after we'd be assigned, I'm not clear on.

8 Q. Actually, the main purpose for establishing liaison officers was

9 to fully implement your mission in terms of free movement of humanitarian

10 aid convoys; isn't that correct?

11 A. That's right, yes.

12 Q. Prior experience made it necessary to envisage potential hot

13 points, and that is why the task of the liaison officer was to prepare as

14 well as he could all the necessary information for the routes for

15 humanitarian aid convoys to be safe and secured prior to the convoys

16 getting on the road; is that right?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. You also had the task of gathering information about the areas of

19 combat or potential areas of combat so that you might better plan the

20 routes to be taken by humanitarian convoys; isn't that so?

21 A. That is correct. We were aimed to get as best a picture of what

22 was going on in our area of responsibility.

23 Q. So after this decision, on the 21st of May, as you already told

24 us, you were designated the liaison officer for the Zenica region, weren't

25 you?

Page 5038

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. For the British Battalion, Zenica was important, as the command

3 of the 3rd Corps was situated there.

4 A. That is correct, yes.

5 Q. It was also significant because routes leading towards Northern

6 and North-Eastern Bosnia passed through Zenica, that is, towards Maglaj,

7 Zavidovici, and Tuzla; would you agree?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Within the framework of the battalion, there were two companies

10 stationed in the area of Vitez; whereas, one company was in Gornji Vakuf,

11 wasn't it?

12 A. That's true. But we also had a company based up in Tuzla.

13 Q. These two companies that were based in the area of Vitez,

14 pursuant to the rules of BritBat, would be replaced after a week so that

15 one company secured the command, whereas the other company would be on the

16 ground escorting convoys or investigating the areas. Isn't that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. They usually changed roles every seven days, didn't they?

19 A. I think so, yes. I can't remember the exact time period.

20 Q. The area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps was quite

21 considerable, and it covered the whole of Central Bosnia, didn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Upon arriving in Zenica, you immediately established contact with

24 the 3rd Corps command, didn't you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5039

1 Q. As you have already told us, in answer from questions -- to

2 questions from our learned friends, you carried out your duties by, among

3 other things, meeting in Zenica with representatives of the European

4 monitors and other international non-governmental organisations, didn't

5 you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. At the local level, you would meet with representatives of the

8 civilian and religious life and with ordinary people in the street.

9 A. Yes, that's true.

10 Q. However, as a military man, most frequently you had

11 communications with the 3rd Corps, didn't you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You already told my learned friend that regularly, on a daily

14 basis you had meetings in the battalion that were attended by company

15 commanders, liaison officers, intelligence officers, and others; isn't

16 that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. As a liaison officer, at that meeting you would convey the

19 information you had gathered during the day from various sources, didn't

20 you?

21 A. That's right, yes.

22 Q. Some of your sources were quite reliable; whereas, others had a

23 lower degree of reliability, and some were quite unreliable. Isn't that

24 right?

25 A. Yes, that's true to say.

Page 5040

1 Q. At the meeting, you would give your own assessment of the

2 knowledge you had gathered that day, but you didn't always necessarily

3 assess the degree of reliability of the sources of your information, did

4 you?

5 A. I would give a summary of the information I had gained and would

6 sometimes pass comment on how reliable it was or not, as the case may be.

7 Q. Your colleagues acted in a similar manner, the colleagues that

8 were attending that meeting, didn't they?

9 A. Yes. The liaison officers, if they had gained information from

10 talking to people, would give their assessment on the accuracy of that

11 information.

12 Q. Some of the information that you conveyed, in view of the degree

13 of reliability, required additional effort for them to be subsequently

14 verified in various other ways; is that right?

15 A. Yes, that's correct. We would often perhaps send out another

16 vehicle or call sign, as we would call it, out the following day to verify

17 perhaps movements or where people were located.

18 Q. As a liaison officer for Zenica, you would give information

19 either to the intelligence officer but most frequently at the regular

20 meetings about the movement of forces, the names of commanders you met or

21 whose names you learnt, and also about locations and any signs of possible

22 conflict along the routes of humanitarian aid convoys; is that right?

23 A. Yes. I would debrief the information I'd gained that day to the

24 intelligence officer, who'd write it down. And I'd also give a summary at

25 the 6.00 meeting.

Page 5041

1 Q. You have already answered that question to some extent, but I

2 would like to ask you once again to tell me whether on the basis of all

3 the information that you gathered a single report was compiled, known as

4 the milinfosum. Is that right?

5 A. That is correct, yes.

6 Q. And as we were able to see from the milinfosums that were shown

7 to you, these reports contained information provided by a certain person.

8 Then it contained comments by the intelligence officer. And my question

9 to you is: Is it true that it also contained information about meetings

10 that the battalion commander may have had either with representatives of

11 the BH army or with representatives of the HVO?

12 A. Yes. In the milinfosum, it would say "CO 1 PWO met

13 Enver Hadzihasanovic," for example ^.

14 Q. If your battalion commander, Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, met in

15 Zenica with Commander Hadzihasanovic, it was customary for you to attend

16 that meeting and to keep notes at that meeting; isn't that right?

17 A. That's right. But I wasn't always present. Sometimes

18 Lieutenant Colonel Duncan and Enver Hadzihasanovic met by themselves.

19 Q. I should now like to ask you kindly that we go back for a moment

20 to your arrival at the 3rd Corps. You said that during the first few days

21 of your mission you met with the Commander Hadzihasanovic almost daily.

22 Is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Those meetings took place in his office; isn't that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5042

1 Q. You said that you believed that the 3rd Corps was in the

2 direction of the Zenica steelworks. If I told you that the 3rd Corps was

3 in fact -- was not in fact located in the direction of the Zenica

4 steelworks but, rather, in a building which located the Institute for

5 Engineering and Planning for that steelwork, you would certainly agree

6 with me.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This was the project office of the Zenica steelworks; isn't that

9 correct?

10 A. It must be, yes.

11 Q. In view of your answer, you would agree with me that

12 Commander Hadzihasanovic's office wasn't the one used by the director of

13 the Zenica steelworks. It was one of the rooms in this design building.

14 Isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes. I was trying to give a description earlier on. It was a

16 large office that he used.

17 Q. If we were able to visualise this office, as my colleague thought

18 that this was an important issue - and I don't want this to remain

19 unclear - one might say that it was a room which was 5 or 5 and a half

20 metres by 3 or 3 and a half metres.

21 A. Yes, approximately.

22 Q. There was the commander's desk in that room. There was a

23 circular table, with 8 seats, 8 chairs for meetings. And there was other

24 furniture for meetings with individual commanders. Is that what one could

25 find in that room?

Page 5043

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As you have already said, quite frequently or at all times

3 whenever you were there you noticed the commander had military maps on his

4 desk, and you would agree that it is quite normal for a corps commander to

5 have military maps in his office and on his desk, given that this was a

6 commander who was involved in a war. Is that a normal situation?

7 A. Yes, totally normal.

8 Q. When you reported to the 3rd Corps commander as the liaison

9 officer, they made it possible for you to carry out your duties as the

10 liaison officer under normal conditions; isn't that right?

11 A. Yes, that was -- we had very civil conversations and he helped me

12 where possible.

13 Q. Although you returned to Vitez every day, within the 3rd Corps

14 command you were provided with a room where you could spend time while

15 performing your duties in Zenica in the course of the day; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes. This would be the room where I was assigned a liaison

18 officer, who I think his name was Edo, if I remember correctly.

19 Q. We have mentioned Officer Edo again, and I would like to remind

20 you about something and ask you whether this was an intelligence officer

21 who was close to Commander Hadzihasanovic, whose name was Edin Husic ^,

22 also known as Edo. Would that be the person in question?

23 A. Yes, that seems to be the same person.

24 Q. It was quite normal, in your opinion, that a corps commander in

25 normal conditions, and especially in wartime conditions, couldn't be at

Page 5044

1 the disposal of the liaison officer from the British Battalion on a daily

2 basis. This was normal for you, and it was understandable. Isn't that

3 right?

4 A. Yes, very understandable. He was fighting a war, so I'd speak to

5 somebody within 3 Corps.

6 Q. However, every day, Edin Husic was at your disposal. He was at

7 the disposal of the British Battalion's liaison officer. Isn't that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes, generally every day he was available.

10 Q. Whenever you asked Officer Husic to do something, he did all he

11 could in order to provide you with the information you requested; that is

12 to say, to establish the contacts that you wanted to establish. Isn't

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If there were any problems, problems of any kind that you could

16 not resolve with Officer Husic or if there was a problem that was outside

17 the scope of your responsibilities, then there would be meetings between

18 Colonel Duncan and Commander Hadzihasanovic; isn't that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And this was also quite normal, in your opinion. The battalion

21 commander should have communication with the corps commander, that would

22 be the normal route of establishing such contact. Isn't that correct?

23 A. Yes, it would be quite normal for my commanding officer also to

24 have a direct relationship with the commander of 3 Corps.

25 Q. You also said that on a number of occasions you also met the

Page 5045

1 deputy corps commander, Dzemal Merdan; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Dzemal Merdan, just like Commander Hadzihasanovic and

4 Officer Husic, attempted to answer all the questions that you had and to

5 find the best way that would enable you to successfully carry out the

6 mission that you had been assigned as the liaison officer; isn't that

7 right?

8 A. Yes, generally that's correct.

9 Q. When performing that mandate, up until the 31st of August, 1993,

10 you can confirm that there was not a single situation in the area under

11 the control of the BH army in which there were problems or in which

12 humanitarian aid convoys were stopped. And this was your main and primary

13 task. Is that correct?

14 A. There were sometimes occasions of problems of transit through a

15 checkpoint, which we would then have to go to 3 Corps to get permission to

16 get through. And sometimes this would delay the whole convoy, and

17 sometimes we may not be able to do it for that day, we'd have to do it for

18 a second day. So we'd have to get a piece of paper signed by either

19 Hadzihasanovic, Merdan, or someone from 3 Corps to let us go that

20 checkpoint, to let the convoy go through.

21 Q. However, you would agree with me if I said that although there

22 were perhaps slight delays, all the humanitarian aid convoys escorted by

23 the UNHCR or by other international organisations that you assisted

24 managed to pass through the areas under the control of the 3rd Corps

25 without any problems, or rather, they managed to pass through the areas

Page 5046

1 where you were located. That is to say, they passed through Zenica

2 without any problems.

3 A. Yes, part -- I would agree with that. They passed through Zenica

4 without any problems.

5 Q. However, in the course of the testimony you have given here

6 today, you said that on occasion it was difficult for you to pass through

7 a checkpoint and on such occasions you had to receive permission to pass

8 through. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You also said that such permission was usually given to you by

11 Dzemal Merdan; isn't that right?

12 A. Yes. I think sometimes people would ask, you know, for

13 Hadzihasanovic's signature. We had to get so many pieces of paper. I

14 can't remember who -- you know, how many signed each at each time.

15 Q. On the main road used by the humanitarian aid convoys, there were

16 no such problems. Or if there were any such problems, they were very

17 slight. I'm referring to the main routes used by the humanitarian

18 convoys. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In fact, the problems first started appearing when your vehicles

21 or you personally or some of the convoys entered areas which were closer

22 to the confrontation lines; is that right?

23 A. That may have occurred. There was one occasion where Merdan had

24 complained to me where a British Army vehicle, a Warrior, had -- was at a

25 key point for the BiH forces.

Page 5047

1 Q. And similarly, if such locations were close to the confrontation

2 lines or areas where there was open fighting, this could pose a risk for

3 the safety of UNPROFOR; isn't that correct?

4 A. Possibly, yes.

5 Q. So it was quite normal for a commander to first draw your

6 attention to this fact or to request that the fighting cease before you

7 entered a given area with your forces, and it was normal for him to do so

8 in order to ensure your safety; isn't that correct?

9 A. There would have been occasions where we asked for -- you know,

10 for a safe transit of either UNPROFOR or the aid organisations through an

11 area, so we would organise a cease-fire.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, given that I'll

14 now be moving on to another area that I would like to question the witness

15 about and it is now quarter to 2.00, perhaps this might be the right time

16 to -- to stop.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 Mr. Withopf, the witness will unfortunately have to return

19 tomorrow. He was here yesterday too. But there is nothing else to be

20 done, since the cross-examination must be continued.

21 So, Witness, please come back tomorrow morning and I think that

22 by the end of the morning you will be able to leave.

23 I'll now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom, and I

24 will see you tomorrow.

25 Madam Usher, please escort the witness out of the courtroom.

Page 5048

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf.

3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, can we please go into

4 private session, since the Prosecution wishes to raise an issue related to

5 another witness?

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's go into

7 private session.

8 [Private session]

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17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of

19 March, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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