1 Wednesday, 24 March 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, would you please
6 call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 The appearances for the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,
12 Your Honours. Good morning, Counsel. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis,
13 Ekkehard Withopf, and Ruth Karper, the case manager.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.
15 Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic,
16 Edina Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel. Thank you.
17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
18 behalf of Amir Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and
19 Nermin Mulalic, legal assistant.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber bids
21 good morning to all the parties present, the OTP, the Defence counsel, the
22 accused, as well as all the staff of this courtroom. This procedure of
23 appearances is repeated every day; however, it is designed for the public,
24 as the proceedings are broadcast, if anyone is following, it is important
25 that the people present should be identified. That is why I'm asking you
1 every time to introduce ourselves for the benefit of the public. Today we
2 have a new witness, and I'm going to ask Madam Usher to go and bring the
3 witness -- however, first let us hear Mr. Bourgon.
4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good
5 morning, Madam Judge, good morning, Your Honours. The Defence would like
6 to tender the military maps that we discussed for the purpose of
7 identification. We told to you -- we told you that these are maps that
8 can be used by all the parties, the Prosecution and the Defence and
9 Your Honours, and there are four different formats of these maps. And
10 with your permission, I should like to begin with these maps in the scale
11 of 1 to 200.000.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please don't disappear.
13 Mr. Bourgon needs you.
14 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Would you be kind enough to
15 distribute the following documents which explains the sources of the maps
16 and also describes the region shown on each of these maps.
17 For the purpose of identification, we would like to underline
18 that these are military maps provided to us by the Army of Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina. These are maps that were used at the time by the Army of
20 Yugoslavia. The series that we have are in the scale of 1 to 200.000.
21 And the document with the Banja Luka indication on it was copied on one of
22 these four maps. And on these documents, you have the four maps shown,
23 that is, Banja Luka 4517; Doboj, 4518; Jajce, 4417; and Sarajevo, 4418.
24 This is a document that illustrates the various maps, and I have a series
25 of these maps, one for the Chamber, one for the registry, one for the
1 Prosecution, and one set that we will be sharing, that is, both Defence
2 teams will be sharing.
3 In each of these tubes we have indicated the scale as well as the
4 number of the maps, and for whom the maps are intended.
5 The selection of maps was made to indicate the geographic areas
6 mentioned in the indictment and the areas which the Defence will be using,
7 both during the Prosecution case and during the Defence case.
8 We have four maps, and the scale is 1 to 200.000. And as we go
9 down to a lower scale, which means a more detailed presentation, it will
10 be the same sector but a more particular area where certain acts may have
11 been committed.
12 Mr. President, the best procedure would be to give one number as
13 identification for a whole series.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, the Defence is
15 providing us with four maps for the moment with a scale 1 to 200.000
16 covering the areas of Banja Luka, Doboj, Jajce, and the fourth region is
17 Sarajevo. These maps, according to what the Defence tells us, are maps
18 that were in force during the time of the JNA, as these were maps that
19 were used by the army of the former Yugoslavia, and these maps precede the
20 events that the Chamber is addressing. These were not maps drafted after
21 but before the events.
22 So does the Prosecution have any objections regarding the use of
23 these maps, which could have been also been tendered by the Prosecution,
24 if it had made such a request to the Army of the Federation of Bosnia and
25 Herzegovina? Mr. Withopf.
1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, there's no objection
2 by the Prosecution to use and to tender these maps.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.
4 So let us give an exhibit number, as this will be simpler. So,
5 Mr. Registrar, we have four maps which merit having a name and a number,
6 Banja Luka, Doboj, Sarajevo, and Jajce.
7 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us first give an exhibit
10 number for the introductory documents. So we will have one exhibit number
11 for the three documents, TK200, set number 2; and the third document. So
12 one exhibit number for these three documents.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH74 for
14 the B/C/S documents and DH74/E for the English translation of the
15 how-to-put-together-map sheet.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we have DH74 for the three
17 pieces of paper, three documents as introduction.
18 Now, let us have a DH number for Banja Luka, 4717; Doboj, 4518;
19 and another one for Sarajevo and for Jajce. So let us have four numbers
20 for these maps.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map number 4517, Banja Luka,
22 gets the exhibit number DH75; the map number 4417, Jajce, gets exhibit
23 number DH76; the map number 4518, Doboj, gets the exhibit number 77; and
24 the map number 4418, Sarajevo, gets the exhibit number DH78.
25 I apologise, the exhibit number should not be 77 but Exhibit
1 Number DH77 for the map of Doboj.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.
3 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. For the
4 record, the four numbers indicated are the maps in the scale 1 to 200.000.
5 I should also like to indicate to the Chamber that these maps
6 were in use prior to the conflict, during the conflict, and are still in
7 use today.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. I indicated that
9 they were designed prior to the conflict. But they were used during the
10 conflict and they are still being used, which means that they are
11 absolutely acceptable. But as the scale doesn't change, it is eternal, no
12 reason to change the map.
13 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] The second series of maps is in the
14 scale 1 to 100.000. And I would like to ask Madam Usher to distribute the
15 introductory documents for these maps.
16 And I would like again to underline that the choice of maps and
17 the sector represented on those maps, in the scale 1 to 100.000, is within
18 the territory covered by the maps in the scale of 1 to 200.000 and that
19 these maps were chosen as a function of the area of responsibility of the
20 3rd Corps, with other zones of responsibility in the surroundings,
21 regarding the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina 1993. This is a series of
22 six maps, and we have a copy for the Chamber, a copy for the Prosecution,
23 and a copy for the registrar.
24 There are two documents in colour which are identical, prepared
25 by the accused in two languages to avoid any confusion.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A small clarification,
2 Mr. Bourgon. You are giving us a map of Vares, 475. This geographic area
3 is subdivided into four sections, -1, -2, -3, -4. Whereas, in the
4 document produced, there are six subsections. Why are there four on the
5 one hand and six on the other?
6 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
7 document entitled "Vares," 475, was photocopied from one of these maps,
8 and the region which has a darker line around it is divided into six
9 squares, called Jajce, Zenica, Vares, Livno, Konjic, and Sarajevo, and
10 this corresponds to the document in colour with the six squares. And if
11 you have a look at the document in colour, above that we have Banja Luka,
12 423; and Doboj, 425. So we can easily understand which map is being
13 referred to when they are used.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We still don't have the maps.
15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I provided three sets, one for the
16 Prosecution, one for the registry, and one for the Chamber, and there's a
17 label on them, so they must be there.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Apparently one of the tubes is
20 Ah, here it is. I'm sorry.
21 Mr. Withopf.
22 MR. WITHOPF: Again, Mr. President, the Prosecution has no
23 objection in using and tendering these maps.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Mr. Registrar, please give me a number for the two documents
1 Vares, with the subsection in English and B/C/S. So a document for
2 these -- a number for these document, please.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH79;
4 and for the English translation, DH79/E.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And now for the six
6 maps in the scale 1 to 100.000.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map number 473 for Jajce gets
8 the exhibit number DH80; the map number 523, Livno, gets the exhibit
9 number DH81; the map number 474, Zenica, gets the exhibit number DH82; the
10 map number 524, Konjic, gets Exhibit Number DH83; the map 475, Vares, gets
11 the exhibit number DH84; and the map number 525, Sarajevo, gets the
12 exhibit number DH85.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Has everyone noted carefully
14 the numbers, I hope?
15 Having specified that we have given DH numbers to these maps, but
16 we could also have given a DHK indication, because these are maps for both
17 Defence teams.
18 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, submitted on
19 behalf of the two accused.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Are there any more
22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] The next series of maps is in the
23 scale 1 to 50.000, and we will use the same procedure. We have three
24 documents. It's a series of eight maps.
25 Mr. President, as we are going from the scale of 1 to 100.000 to
1 the scale of 1 to 50.000, it is worth mentioning that the map is twice as
2 precise because the area represented is twice the size of the map in the
3 scale of 1 to 100.000. We have Zenica-4. It's a reproduction, a
4 photocopy, of one of the maps, that is, the map Zenica-4, which you see
5 indicated with a darker line on this document. So you see Zenica-4 as
6 well as the areas represented by the eight maps we are tendering. So
7 there's Zenica-1, -2, -3, and -4, and on the left-hand side there's
8 Jajce-4, and then Livno-2, and Konjic-1, as well as to the right we see
9 Vares-3. You can also see in the introductory documents that the other
10 maps could also be presented to or shown to the Chamber if the parties
11 find it fit to refer to a more detailed presentation of the area in
12 presenting their case.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, let
14 us have a number for these two documents, Zenica-4, and six subsections.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH86;
16 and the English translation gets the exhibit number DH86/E.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we have eight maps,
18 Zenica-1, -2, -3, -4; plus Jajce-4; Vares-3; Livno-2; and Konjic-1. So
19 we have six maps.
20 Mr. Withopf.
21 MR. WITHOPF: Again, Mr. President, Your Honours, no objection.
22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. President, there are
23 eight maps.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see, eight. One, two, three,
25 four -- yes, exactly, eight maps. Eight maps.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map Zenica-1 gets the exhibit
2 number DH87; the map Zenica-2 gets the exhibit number DH88; map Zenica-3
3 gets exhibit number DH89; the map Zenica-4 gets the exhibit number DH90;
4 the map Jajce-4 gets exhibit number DH91; the map DH -- the map Vares-3
5 gets the exhibit number DH92; the map Livno-2 gets the exhibit number
6 DH93; and the map Konjic-1 gets Exhibit Number DH94.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
8 Let us continue.
9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We have
10 a last series of maps in the scale of 1 to 25.000 for the territories
11 illustrated. They are again twice as large or more detailed than the
12 previous one. So this is a series of 12 maps in the scale 1 to 25.000
13 which are presented similarly.
14 It was not possible to use the same method as before. We just
15 have a coloured document indicating each of the maps as they are
16 represented and how they should be assembled should one wish to put them
17 one next to the other.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, a number,
19 please, for the B/C/S version and the English version.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number is DH95 for the
21 B/C/S version and DH95/E for the English version.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We just have the
23 tubes left now.
24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] This series in the scale 1 to
25 25.000 consists of 12 maps with the numbers as indicated on the document
1 DH95. I should like to note for the benefit of the Chamber that on the
2 tubes the series 200.000 bears the number 2; the series of 1 to 100.000
3 bears the number 3; the series in 1 to 50.000 bears the number 4; and the
4 series in the scale 1 to 25.000 bears the number 5. So map number 1, in
5 scale 1 to 500.000, we hope we will not need. Should the Chamber wish to
6 have that map, which covers all the territories referred to in the
7 indictment, the Defence may also provide that map.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we note that on the tubes we
9 have the numbers 2, 3, 4, 5. Number 1 is missing because number 1
10 corresponds to a map in the scale 1 to 500.000. So we have 12 maps in the
11 scale 1 to 25.000.
12 Mr. Withopf.
13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, again, no objections.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have a
15 number for each map.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map Livno 2-2 gets exhibit
17 number DH96; the map Jajce 4-4 gets exhibit number DH97; the map Zenica
18 1-4 gets the exhibit number DH98; the map Zenica 2-3 gets the exhibit
19 number DH99; the map Zenica 3-1 gets the exhibit number DH100; the map
20 DH -- sorry, the map Zenica 3-2 gets the exhibit number DH101; the map
21 Zenica 3-3 gets the exhibit number DH102; the map Zenica 4-1 get it is
22 exhibit number DH103; the map Zenica 4-2 gets the exhibit number DH104;
23 the map Zenica 4-4 gets the exhibit number DH105; the map Vares 3-1 gets
24 exhibit number DH106; and the map Vares 3-3 gets the exhibit number DH107.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 All the maps have been tendered into evidence and they have been
2 given definitive, final, exhibit numbers. When either of the parties
3 needs one of these maps, it's sufficient to refer to the number. We will
4 then produce the map in question.
5 Madam Usher, could you call the witness into the courtroom.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. Are you
8 receiving the interpretation of what I am saying?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am. Yes, I am.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you have been called here as
11 a witness for the Prosecution, you have to make the solemn declaration.
12 But before you do so, before you read out the text before you, it's
13 necessary for you to inform the Trial Chamber of your identity. Could you
14 please tell me your first and last names.
15 THE WITNESS: My name is Launcelot James Cameron Kiggell.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your date of birth?
17 THE WITNESS: 19th of February, 1966.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And which town or village were
19 you born in?
20 THE WITNESS: I was born in Lincoln.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which country is Lincoln in?
22 THE WITNESS: In the United Kingdom.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current
25 THE WITNESS: I am currently a teacher of economics and business
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, what was your official
3 position at the time, ten years ago?
4 THE WITNESS: I was a British Army officer, and I was at the rank
5 of captain.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already -- have you
7 already testified before a court, or is this the first time?
8 THE WITNESS: This is the first time.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you will be testifying, you
10 have to make the solemn declaration. Could you read the text that you
11 have in your hands.
12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
13 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: CAMERON KIGGELL
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
16 In the course of your exchanges with the Prosecution, the
17 Prosecution probably told you how we would be proceeding. The
18 Trial Chamber must also provide you with some information.
19 You are a witness for the Prosecution. The Prosecution will be
20 asking you some questions about events that you were an eyewitness of or
21 perhaps an oral witness. The Prosecution is to your right. The person
22 who will be asking you some questions is Mr. Withopf. He will be
23 conducting his examination-in-chief, and after he has concluded the
24 examination-in-chief, you will be cross-examined by the Defence. They are
25 to your left. And the accused, who won't be speaking, are behind them.
1 The three Judges, sitting before you, have the right to ask you
2 questions at any point in time, either questions that are directly related
3 to questions put to you by either of the parties, or they might ask you
4 any other questions that might be of interest for the pursuit of justice.
5 Before answering a question, think about your answer. If there
6 is a question that you don't understand, ask the person putting it to you
7 to rephrase it to ensure that your answer is clear. The proceedings here
8 are oral. We don't have any written record, so we don't know what you
9 will be saying. What you say will help to establish the truth. This is
10 why it is necessary for your answers to be precise, clear, and concise.
11 In addition, I have to remind you of two other factors: Firstly,
12 you have made the solemn declaration, which means that you will tell the
13 truth. If a witness lies, gives false testimony, the witness could be
14 prosecuted for having given false testimony. This is the case in all
15 countries. This is a measure I had to remind you of. Giving false
16 testimony can be penalised. You could be given a fine or a prison
18 In addition, there is another provision, but this shouldn't be
19 applicable to you: If a witness answers a question and the information he
20 provides might incriminate him, you have the right to refuse to answer the
21 question. Nevertheless, the Chamber could compel you to answer the
22 question. But if that is the case, the information you provide can't be
23 used against you. So you have such immunity.
24 So roughly speaking, this is how your testimony will
25 proceed -- this is how the testimony of witnesses proceeds, so when a
1 witness is called by the Prosecution, by the Defence, or by the Chamber.
2 So without wasting any more time, the Prosecution may take the
3 floor. Mr. Withopf.
4 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Examined by Mr. Withopf:
6 Q. Good morning, sir.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. Sir, you informed the Trial Chamber that in 1993 you've been a
9 British Army officer. Can you please for the benefit of the Trial Chamber
10 briefly summarise your military career within the British Army.
11 A. I joined the army in 1987 and was commissioned to officer in
12 1988. I then joined my unit. One of my first jobs was clearing up at
13 Lockerbie. I spent a year commanding a platoon of 36 men and then in 1990
14 was sent on an operational tour to Northern Ireland, where I again
15 commanded 36 soldiers. Then, came back and was selected to run and set up
16 a team for specialist recruiting, running an event training. Came back
17 and then rejoined the battalion, ready for another operational tour in
18 Northern Ireland. And then after Northern Ireland, I was sent on my
19 promotion to major's course, which was about six months long. I completed
20 that and then rejoined my battalion in January 1993, where we were then
21 told we were going to Bosnia in April that year.
22 After doing Bosnia, I was then promoted to operations officer and
23 I finished my military career at the end of December 1995.
24 Q. Sir, what was your military rank when you left the British Army?
25 A. I was a captain.
1 Q. Can you briefly, sir, inform the Trial Chamber what you've done
2 after you left the British Army.
3 A. I then joined a commercial company that made water purification
4 equipment. I worked for them for several years and then went and did a
5 masters degree in business administration at Durham University. And the
6 company invited me back to become a director, which I joined. And then
7 last year in July, I left them to start my new teaching job.
8 Q. Whilst being with the British Army, sir, did there come a time
9 when you were deployed in the area of the former Yugoslavia?
10 A. Yes. I was deployed in April 1993, and I stayed there until
11 November 1993.
12 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber where you were deployed
13 in the area of the former Yugoslavia.
14 A. I was deployed in Central Bosnia. We were stationed in Vitez.
15 And I worked there from May to the end of August. And then for the last
16 two months I was deployed to Tuzla.
17 Q. Sir, what was the context of you having been deployed in the area
18 of Central Bosnia you just described?
19 A. The British Battalion were requested to work under UNPROFOR to
20 help deliver aid and medical supplies in Central Bosnia and in Tuzla.
21 Q. Can you please also inform, sir, the Trial Chamber about the name
22 of the military unit you formed part of during that period of time.
23 A. We were known as BritBat, which was short for British Battalion.
24 Q. Whilst you were deployed in the area of Central Bosnia you just
25 described, what was your responsibility? What duties were assigned to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. I was assigned to be a liaison officer for Zenica. And in my
3 role, I was to find out information, what was going on in the area, which
4 enabled the British Battalion to operate in Central Bosnia. This was so
5 we could find out where it would be possible to deliver aid, medical
6 supplies, and help where required.
7 Q. In fulfilling your duties as a liaison officer, what did you
8 actually do? Can you please describe for the benefit of the Trial Chamber
9 the daily routine.
10 A. I would leave Vitez and drive into Zenica and would often go into
11 3 Corps and other -- and just find out information that was going on in
12 Zenica, other military units, just to get to know them, get to know the
13 names of the commanders, also to speak to the international aid
14 organisations, also to speak to some of the civil power as well, just to
15 see what's happening and where the British Battalion could help at that
17 Q. Can you please, sir, go into some more detail in respect to with
18 whom you communicated whilst you were the liaison officer for the area of
20 A. Well, we liaised on the military side with 3 Corps. And we then
21 also dealt with all the brigade commanders. So we had dealt with the 3
22 Corps commander, the deputy commander was also assigned a liaison officer
23 within 3 Corps. So I used to deal with them regularly. And then as well
24 as going round to the different brigades to speak to the commanders and
25 other civil people.
1 Q. What sort of civil people did you talk to?
2 A. I spoke to the chief of the police. I spoke to the mayor, and
3 also the ordinary civilians on the streets as well.
4 Q. Prior to arriving in Central Bosnia, did you get any briefing
5 from the British Army about the situation in Central Bosnia?
6 A. We had many briefings before we deployed from Germany. We had
7 briefings of what was going on. We had training to prepare us for the
8 role. And then when we arrived in country, we then had a more up-to-date
9 briefing of what had been happening in the war at that stage.
10 Q. Briefings were given to you in respect to what was going on in
11 the area. Can you please be a bit more concrete in that respect.
12 A. Yes. When we arrived in Split, we were given a military briefing
13 of what was happening on the war of that front, where the movements were,
14 what was happening, and what we could, you know, expect, and what was
15 perhaps predicted might occur.
16 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber about the area you were
17 deployed after you were assigned being the liaison officer with the
18 3rd Corps, with the ABiH 3rd Corps.
19 A. I was responsible for Zenica town and the surrounding area. I
20 didn't go all the way down into the Lasva Valley, so the immediate
21 surrounding area of Zenica and Zenica itself.
22 Q. At the time you were deployed in Zenica and the surrounding areas
23 of Zenica, did you also talk to representatives of other international
25 A. Yes. I worked with the United Nations, the UNHCR, the Red Cross,
1 various aid organisations that were operating in the area at the time.
2 Q. You earlier on mentioned, sir, that you were based in Vitez.
3 Where in Vitez exactly were you based?
4 A. We were based in the old school, which I recall -- it's
5 Nova Bila, I think it is, it was called.
6 Q. Can you please describe for the benefit of the Trial Chamber a
7 typical day, a typical workday whilst you were assigned as the liaison
8 officer for the Zenica area.
9 A. Sometime between 8.00 and 9.00 in the morning I would drive
10 across into Zenica, either using the mountain route or the bypass, and
11 would go and speak to representatives of 3 Corps, military people. I was
12 really on my own to go and find out what information you could gather at
13 that time. So there was no sort of set routine. It was just driving
14 around, seeing what I could see, see who I could speak to, and then return
15 back to the British Battalion round about 5.00 ready for a 6.00 briefing.
16 Q. You earlier on mentioned, sir, that you were deployed as the
17 liaison officer in the Zenica area and the surroundings from May to August
18 1993. Can you, if possible, please provide us with some more specific
19 dates, if you do recall.
20 A. Yes. I came back down from Tuzla round about the 21st of May,
21 and then took over my duties a couple of days later as Zenica LO. And
22 then it was until the 31st of August I remained Zenica LO, where I then
23 handed over to another army officer from our battalion, who became the
24 Zenica LO, and I became the Tuzla liaison officer.
25 Q. You just mentioned that each work day finished with the briefing
1 at 6.00 p.m. Where did this briefing take place?
2 A. This took place in the British Battalion headquarters in the old
4 Q. In the old school in Vitez?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who attended such daily briefings?
7 A. All departmental heads, the liaison officers, having been round
8 at the area. We would then feed back our information into the meeting.
9 The commanding officer would be there, the intelligence officer would be
10 there, so everybody who needed to know, who represented a department
11 within the British Battalion, was represented.
12 Q. Sir, who was the commanding officer at the time, your commanding
14 A. Lieutenant Colonel Alastair Duncan.
15 Q. And to whom did Lieutenant Colonel Alastair Duncan report to?
16 What was his chain of command?
17 A. He reported to Brigadier Searby, who was based in Split.
18 Q. In the course of such daily briefings at 6.00 p.m., can you
19 please inform the Trial Chamber what has been reported and what has been
20 discussed at such briefings.
21 A. We would all give information of what we had seen going on that
22 day, who we'd met, what information we'd gathered, and try and give an
23 assessment of what could likely happen in our area of responsibility. So
24 everybody shared the information and the intelligence officer would
25 compile this information later on.
1 Q. The intelligence officer would compile such information later on.
2 Did the compilation of such information, of the information result in any
3 report in writing?
4 A. The report that was produced was called the milinfosum, the
5 military information summary.
6 Q. What was the purpose, sir, to have such milinfosums?
7 A. The purpose was to collate all the information and get a picture
8 of what was happening in the region, and also to see what trends and
9 what's likely to happen. And then that information was then fed up the
10 British chain of command, so they had an idea of what was going on in the
12 Q. You already partially earlier answered my next question. Who was
13 supposed to read the milinfosum?
14 A. Well, everybody had access to it. Having had the information at
15 the meeting verbally told, everyone had a picture. And if you got the
16 opportunity, everyone could read the milinfosum. So therefore having read
17 it in the battalion, it would then be fed up to the brigade headquarters
18 in Split and the people responsible there would read it and it would also
19 be fed back to the UK.
20 Q. Did you yourself get an opportunity to read the milinfosums?
21 A. Yes, frequently.
22 Q. The milinfosums, did they stay within the British Army, BritBat?
23 A. I think they did. The information may have been shared amongst
24 the international community. I'm not sure.
25 Q. Can you please describe for the benefit of the Trial Chamber what
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the contents of a typical milinfosum has been at the time.
2 A. It would often have a report of the activity, who had seen the
3 activity and reported it. And they would often be a comment by -- made in
4 the text which the intelligence officer would insert either from talking
5 and debriefing the liaison officers or the relevant people who had
6 reported that incident for it to be fed back up the chain of command.
7 Q. Sir, can such a milinfosum be described as a summary of the daily
8 briefings, or was it more comprehensive?
9 A. It was more comprehensive because there often wasn't time to give
10 so much detail at the meeting. So therefore it was -- I used to come in
11 and give information to the intelligence officer, which was more detailed
12 information, who I'd met, which wasn't really relevant at the 6.00
14 Q. Did such milinfosums also contain an analytical portion?
15 A. Yes. It -- again, from the information that was on the sheets,
16 you know, you could perhaps make an analysis of what was happening and
17 what could happen.
18 Q. Who was the person or what was the position of the person who was
19 responsible for putting together the information in the milinfosums?
20 A. He was a captain and he was the intelligence officer.
21 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that the intelligence officer had a
22 broad knowledge of the situation in the area?
23 A. Yes. He would have got a good knowledge from speaking to all the
24 different parties.
25 Q. You earlier on mentioned, sir, that you met with many people,
1 amongst them with commanders within 3rd Corps. Whom actually did you
3 A. Well, I met Enver Hadzihasanovic, who was the 3 Corps commander;
4 and then I met his deputy commander, which was Merdan; and then I met the
5 liaison officer who was assigned to me, it was a chap called Edo, I can't
6 remember his surname. And then I also met other individuals. Sakib, I
7 think was the adjutant within 3 Corps and I also met other commanders at 3
8 Corps as well.
9 Q. How often did you meet the 3rd Corps commander at the time,
10 Enver Hadzihasanovic?
11 A. I met them very regularly. At the beginning, it was almost
12 daily. So I met them on a number of occasions.
13 Q. And to your recollection, sir, how often did you meet
14 Dzemal Merdan?
15 A. Again, I met him on many occasions, either at 3 Corps or out on
16 the ground.
17 Q. What was Mr. Merdan's position at the time?
18 A. He was the deputy commander of 3 Corps.
19 Q. When you met Mr. Hadzihasanovic, where did you meet him?
20 A. I met him at 3 Corps headquarters, which was based in the
21 steelworks in Zenica.
22 Q. Can you please describe for the benefit of the Trial Chamber how
23 Mr. Hadzihasanovic's office looked like.
24 A. It was a large office. It had obviously been the chief
25 executive's office of the steelworks. Over to the left you had his desk
1 and there were some couches just to the left of that. And then you had a
2 huge boardroom table to the right.
3 Q. When you met Mr. Hadzihasanovic in his office, were there
4 occasions when you've seen maps, military maps?
5 A. Yes, there were maps that had been spread out onto the table.
6 Q. Were these military maps?
7 A. Yes, it would have pictures of military movements.
8 Q. Where did Mr. Dzemal Merdan, the deputy commander, where did he
9 have his office?
10 A. He had a small office to the side on the right, and it had a
11 connecting door into Hadzihasanovic's office.
12 Q. During the time you were deployed as the liaison officer for
13 BritBat in Zenica, who was your main point of contact with the ABiH 3rd
15 A. Initially it was Hadzihasanovic, but then I was assigned a
16 liaison officer. So I would -- if I had sort of questions, I would ask
17 the -- Edo, the liaison officer. But you know, this was interspersed with
18 meetings with Hadzihasanovic and Merdan.
19 Q. Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber, sir, why a liaison
20 officer, the person with the name Edo, was assigned to you?
21 A. I understand from a conversation with Hadzihasanovic and
22 Lieutenant Colonel Duncan that he complained I was finding out too much
23 information and, therefore, he signed a liaison officer to me. So he was
24 sort of replicating what the British Battalion were doing.
25 Q. Whilst you were assigned as the liaison officer, did you ever
1 meet any other military unit commander of the ABiH 3rd Corps?
2 A. Yes. I met several. I remember meeting Kubura. I can't
3 remember the names of other commanders that I'd met, but I remember
4 meeting Kubura.
5 Q. Do you recall, sir, where you met Mr. Kubura?
6 A. At 3 Corps headquarters.
7 Q. What was Mr. Kubura's position at the time, to your knowledge?
8 A. He was the 7 Muslim Brigade commander.
9 Q. And where was the 7th Muslim Brigade headquarters?
10 A. It was located in Zenica. And I think, again, it may have been
11 located in an old school.
12 Q. How far was the 7th Muslim Brigade headquarters away from the 3rd
13 Corps headquarters?
14 A. It may have been a few miles, because it was on the other side of
15 town, if I remember correctly.
16 Q. Did you make any attempts to meet Mr. Kubura at other occasions?
17 A. Yes. I tried on several occasions to go to 7 Muslim Brigade
18 headquarters, but I was never allowed entry.
19 Q. Can you please provide us some more detail in that respect.
20 A. I'd turned up at the entrance to 7 Muslim Brigade, and I asked
21 the guard to see if I could organise a meeting, but I would never be
22 allowed to proceed further than the gate, so I would have to turn around
23 and carry on.
24 Q. Do you have any explanation why, as to why you were not allowed
25 to access the area of the 7th Muslim Brigade headquarters?
1 A. It may have been that they had received orders not to allow
2 anyone from UNPROFOR in, and that could be one possible explanation. Or
3 Kubura wasn't there. I just never seemed to be allowed in.
4 Q. Coming back to the meetings with Mr. Hadzihasanovic. At whose
5 request or at whose initiative did such meeting -- meetings take place?
6 A. Normally it would be through the British Battalion's initiative,
7 either myself organising the meeting, calling to see if I could see him
8 without having anything organised, or sometimes I would organise meetings
9 with Hadzihasanovic and Lieutenant Colonel Duncan.
10 Q. Whilst assigned between May and August in the area of Zenica, did
11 you travel a lot?
12 A. Yes, I travelled all around the region of Zenica, all around the
13 town, and then in the surrounding area as well.
14 Q. Were you allowed to travel freely?
15 A. Generally, yes. However, when we used to come across some
16 checkpoints, you know, we would be refused access. So therefore we'd have
17 to go and get authority from 3 Corps to have access to proceed through
18 that checkpoint.
19 Q. Was this a regular occurrence, that there were ABiH 3rd Corps
20 checkpoints and you were not allowed to get access?
21 A. Quite often it happened; and therefore, it would delay the whole
22 proceeding, because we would have to go and get the relevant piece of
23 paper, to get permission. And then once we got permission, we'd come back
24 to the checkpoint. And again, it still had to be confirmed by the brigade
25 headquarters - excuse me - to get through the checkpoint.
1 Q. Had to be confirmed by the 3rd Corps headquarters. Who actually
2 was in charge for issuing such permissions?
3 A. It was normally Merdan who was the man I'd normally have to get
4 the sign the piece of papers. Whoever had the authority, who they would
5 expect to sign it, would then allow us to go on our way.
6 Q. Was the 3rd Corps commander, Hadzihasanovic, also involved?
7 A. Yes. I think we -- on several occasions we had to get his
8 signature on a piece of paper to go through checkpoints.
9 Q. After you were deployed in the area of Zenica, sir, did there
10 come a time when you noticed foreigners in that area?
11 A. Yes. We met foreigners, apart from the international aid
12 community, we met people who were Mujahedin, who'd travelled from Turkey
13 and other Muslim countries to help fight for the Muslims in the war.
14 Q. These Mujahedin, were they armed?
15 A. Yes. They -- when they were out on the ground, they were
16 generally well armed. They had automatic weapons, grenades and
17 rocket-propelled grenades.
18 Q. When for the first time after you arrived in the area did you
19 notice such well-armed Mujahedin?
20 A. I first saw Mujahedin in Zenica at the end of May, I met them in
21 a suburb of Zenica. They weren't armed at that stage, because I was just
22 having a meeting within a cafe bar which I think they had taken over.
23 Q. These Mujahedin, did they wear military uniforms?
24 A. Yes, they generally wore a uniform. They had -- quite often had
25 a shawl, which is from that region. And they also had sort of -- I
1 suppose you could describe them as having a sort of -- a typical Muslim
2 beard, had grown it.
3 Q. The uniforms they wore, did they display any military insignia?
4 A. Yes. They often they would have a badge on the shoulder to
5 represent the unit they belonged to.
6 Q. Sir, with the permission of the Trial Chamber, I'm going to show
7 you a photo board. It's Prosecution Exhibit P4. And we will use the
8 Sanction technology.
9 Sir, can you please have a look at the photo board in front of
10 you. And can you inform -- please inform the Trial Chamber whether the
11 Mujahedin you've seen in Zenica end of May 1993 wore or had any of the
12 patches displayed on this photo board on their uniforms.
13 A. Well, I remember seeing -- I couldn't say whether I'd seen the
14 patches in May. But generally the patches you saw were number 9 and 15.
15 I can't remember exactly if they had the patches on in May, but I
16 certainly remember seeing Mujahedin with patches on during my time there.
17 Q. When for the first time, if you do recall, when for the first
18 time have you seen Mujahedin wearing the patches you just identified?
19 A. I couldn't accurately give you a date or a time when I saw those
20 patches on.
21 Q. All right. Thank you.
22 To your knowledge, sir, which military unit did the Mujahedin
23 form part of?
24 A. Generally they -- they belonged to 7 Muslim Brigade.
25 Q. Is the 7th Muslim Brigade the ABiH military unit Mr. Kubura was
1 the commander of at the time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. To your knowledge - and I know you already mentioned it partially
4 earlier - to your knowledge, where did the Mujahedin come from? From
5 which foreign countries?
6 A. Generally, they came from Middle Eastern countries. The ones I
7 had met came from Turkey and Istanbul. There was one example of one
8 report of a Mujahedin coming from the UK.
9 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your permission,
10 I'm going to show the witness milinfosum number 30, dated 29th of May,
11 1993. The necessary copies are available. They are available in B/C/S,
12 in English, and for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, in French as well.
13 Q. Sir, can you please have a look at the milinfosum in front of
14 you. If I may draw your attention to paragraph 2 of this -- of this
15 milinfosum, which has the heading "Zenica."
16 The first sentence, sir, starts with: "The Zenica LO reports,
17 the following personality details for Zenica-based BiH brigades." Is the
18 Zenica LO referring to you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Under 2(b), there is mentioned 7th Muslim Brigade commander
21 Amir Kubura.
22 A. Yes. That's the information I found out that day.
23 Q. If I may, sir, draw your attention to paragraph 3 of this
24 milinfosum. It starts with "A recce C/S conducted an extensive tour of
25 the current line of confrontation." Can you please for the benefit of the
1 Trial Chamber explain to us what a "recce C/S," what does it mean?
2 A. This is short for a reconnaissance call sign, a recce call sign.
3 And they had obviously done a reconnaissance along the current line of
4 confrontation between the BiH and HVO forces.
5 Q. If I may draw your attention, sir, to paragraph 3 and then in
6 brackets (3). Can you please explain for the benefit of the Trial Chamber
7 what "GR 184056," what does it mean.
8 A. That is grid reference 184056.
9 Q. And can you please also for the benefit of the Trial Chamber
10 explain for what purpose grid references are used for.
11 A. This is to accurately map where certain instances where -- or
12 checkpoints where, you know, where people were.
13 Q. Would you be able, sir, if I would show you a map, to identify
14 this location which is identified by its grid reference on a map?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm now going to show
17 the witness a map. Unfortunately, this map is not available in Sanction
18 due to technical reasons, but we have the respective numbers of hard
20 Can the witness please put the map on the ELMO, please.
21 Q. Sir, is it possible for you to identify on this map, using the
22 grid reference in the milinfosum, the place, the location which is
23 identified under 3(3) of the milinfosum?
24 A. Yes. I'm just looking for the grid lines so I can accurately
25 give you the grid reference and point it to you.
1 Q. Please take your time, sir.
2 A. I'm sorry, I apologise. I can find the northings but I can't
3 find the eastings on this map.
4 Q. Would you be able, sir, without using the grid reference --
5 references to roughly describe the area which this grid reference is
6 making reference to?
7 A. I'll have a look. It's to the area of -- I can see from the
8 report it says Fazlici, which is 1805. Can you please, --
9 Q. Can you please, sir, encircle the location called Fazlici.
10 A. It's -- well, from --
11 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be provided with a text
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
15 Q. Thank you, sir.
16 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes
17 to tender this map into evidence. If the witness could please date and
18 sign the map.
19 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Defence wishes to
21 intervene. But I, too, would like you to explain how on the basis of the
22 milinfosum, paragraph 3, how the witness is managing to locate the
23 position. Maybe that will be the question of the Defence.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, precisely so.
25 We wanted to know what the witness has actually done. Has he read out
1 from the map the name Fazlici referred in the milinfosum and encircled it,
2 which could be done by anyone, especially as the witness in answer to
3 previous questions from the Prosecutor said that he was throughout
4 stationed in Zenica, that he only moved around the environs of Zenica, and
5 that he was not assigned to tour the area beyond. So we do not see what
6 the purpose of this marking is, because unlike the witness we heard before
7 this witness, this witness has not provided a single piece of evidence
8 that would qualify him to mark these areas. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf, it would be
10 desirable for the witness to explain to us how, on the basis of the fact
11 that he has Fazlici 1805, how he has found the spot.
12 Mr. Witness, could you explain to us technically how GR 1805 is
13 found on this map. If Fazlici had not been indicated but GR 1805, would
14 you be capable of pointing out the spot on the basis of the map -- on this
15 map? First, what does the "GR" mean?
16 THE WITNESS: It means "grid reference," which therefore applies
17 to the map. And the two figures -- the four numbers represent the square
18 for that town.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So "GR" refers to the grid
20 reference, and the numbers to the squares; is that right? So
21 theoretically one should be able to find "G" and "R" on the map.
22 THE WITNESS: "GR" is the terminology to use. What you then look
23 on the map are the actual numbers. And one of the difficulties when I was
24 looking for number 3 was looking for the numbers going across the page
25 which would accurately give me the location of where that checkpoint was.
1 But I'd found "05" on the northing lines, so that pointed me to the right
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So 1805. And 18, is that a
4 vertical line or a horizontal line?
5 THE WITNESS: If I could show you on your map, sir. These
6 numbers here are known as northings, and you can see them going down that
7 way. So 05 should be that box. And then the numbers I couldn't make out
8 were the numbers going across the columns of the map, which I couldn't
9 see. Sorry.
10 MR. WITHOPF: [Microphone not activated]
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Withopf.
12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, if I may please assist the
13 Trial Chamber.
14 Q. May I draw your attention, sir, to what's written under 3.A. and
15 I understand you were actually earlier on referring to this portion of the
16 milinfosum. It says "There are still the following checkpoints on the
17 road between Stara Bila and Fazlici." And then after "Fazlici" there's a
18 grid reference.
19 A. That's right, yes.
20 Q. How does this grid reference after Fazlici, namely 1805, how does
21 it correspond to the grid reference under (3), 184056?
22 A. The grid reference 184056 is obviously very close to Fazlici and
23 therefore we might be able to work out where this checkpoint is.
24 Q. Does this information contained in the milinfosum, together with
25 the map you have in front of you, allow you to identify the area which is
1 mentioned under 3(3) of the milinfosum as being Fazlici?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, again, the Prosecution
4 wishes to tender this map into evidence.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.
6 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Mr. President, this map, first of all, was already tendered by
8 the Prosecution in a larger version at the very beginning. I think that
9 it is Exhibit Number P1. That was the first exhibit tendered by the
11 Today the witness is being used to recognise a town. If for the
12 record the witness tells us that he saw Fazlici on the map because he saw
13 the word "Fazlici" written, the Defence has no objection. If the witness
14 is telling us that he recognises Fazlici on the basis of the grid
15 references provided in the milinfosum, then the Defence has an objection
16 because the witness is not capable with the map given him to identify the
17 coordinates, the grid references. He can find 05, and everyone can see
18 that on the map. The coordinates 05 doesn't even correspond to Fazlici.
19 058 may correspond to Fazlici but not 05. 05 corresponds to Orasac.
20 Whereas, the other coordinates cannot be seen on this map, and the witness
21 cannot tell us that grid reference 1805 corresponds to Fazlici.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you have heard the
23 technical remarks made. When you encircled "Fazlici," did you do that
24 because you saw in the milinfosum the name of Fazlici and you found it on
25 the map, or is it basically exclusively on the basis of your technical
1 knowledge, GR 1805, that you found Fazlici?
2 As you have taken the solemn declaration, you will give me an
3 answer telling the truth. What are you telling us?
4 THE WITNESS: I found Fazlici by using the grid reference on the
6 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I think the witness has very clearly
7 answered the questions and addressed the concern of the Defence.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness tells us that
9 relying on his technical and military knowledge he was able to find
10 Fazlici, so that's it.
11 What can the Defence tell us? What do you wish to tell us?
12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I simply wish to confirm,
13 Mr. President, that when the witness tells us that he uses the coordinates
14 in the milinfosum, is he telling us that on the map in front of him that
15 Fazlici corresponds to the grid reference 1805? If that is the case, we
16 have no objection.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, witness, on the map, you
18 are identifying Fazlici on the basis of grid reference 1805. You are
19 telling us in the affirmative?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, before - and I would suggest we have
23 a break within a few minutes - but can this map please be given a
24 Prosecution exhibit number. I understand the Defence, after the
25 explanations by the witness, have no further objections in tendering it.
1 MR. DIXON: Sorry, Your Honour, could I just clarify one point,
2 and that's whether --
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon, you have the floor.
4 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. I just want to clarify that
5 at this stage the Prosecution is only seeking to exhibit the map and not
6 the military information summary. Because we have some comments to make
7 in respect of whether this witness is the correct witness through this
8 which document could in fact be admitted. So if we could be given an
9 opportunity to address Your Honours on that point. But the way I
10 understand it is that at this stage only the map is being sought to be
12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, at this stage, only the map is
13 sought being tendered. However, at a later stage obviously the
14 Prosecution wishes to tender the milinfosum as well.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. For the moment, we
16 are only being asked to admit the map.
17 As it is time for the break, we will come back and tell you what
18 we have decided about the map. And I invite everyone to be back here at
19 five to 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After having deliberated and
23 after having carefully examined the map and the grid reference 1805, the
24 Trial Chamber notes that in fact GR 1805, although it doesn't indicate
25 this exact place, is just above it. So as a result, we will give the
1 document in question a final exhibit number.
2 Mr. Registrar, could we have an exhibit number.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P98.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
5 Mr. Withopf, please continue.
6 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.
7 Mr. President, Your Honours, as already foreshadowed prior to the
8 break, the Prosecution wishes to also tender into evidence the milinfosum
9 number 30, dated 29th of May, 1993. The witness is personally mentioned
10 in this milinfosum as the Zenica liaison officer. He was at the time.
11 The witness was able to comment on the statements that do form part of the
12 milinfosum, and for that reason the Prosecution wishes to tender this
13 milinfosum into evidence.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence may
15 comment on this. Before they do so, I'd like to point out that this
16 milinfosum document number 30 is dated the 29th of May, 1993. This date
17 is part of the relevant period that appears in the indictment. This
18 document refers to a liaison officer. We have this person in front of us.
19 He is our witness. And it is also interesting to point out that yesterday
20 the Defence requested that a document of this type be admitted into
22 What does Mr. Dixon have to say about this matter?
23 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. It is correct that we have
24 asked for documents of this kind to be admitted, but we've done so on the
25 basis that the witness was able to identify relevant information in the
1 document or was associated with certain events in the document.
2 In this particular military information summary, the witness, as
3 he said in his testimony, was able to identify one part of it, that is,
4 paragraph 2, where he reported that the commander of the 7th Brigade was
5 Mr. Kubura. That's not a contentious point. But that is the only aspect
6 of the document that he has anything to do with, in our submission.
7 Paragraph 3, which is clearly the most important paragraph in the
8 document which the Prosecution seeks to rely upon, was one which involved
9 an incident where the witness was not present. This was as a result of a
10 recce which was conducting a tour along a confrontation line. And the
11 witness was not in the area at the time. He didn't gather this
12 information. This information was gathered by other persons, persons who
13 themselves could testify about these events before the Tribunal.
14 And, Your Honours, in our submission this is very significant,
15 because although the Prosecution doesn't emphasise the point, the only
16 reason why they're seeking to introduce this paragraph, surely, is because
17 of the presence of foreign fighters at a certain point. They are seeking
18 to use this document to prove the truth of its contents, to prove that
19 those persons were there at that time. This witness wasn't there at the
20 time. He can't testify about whether or not this document is accurate.
21 And the Defence are not in the position to be able to cross-examine him on
22 that point.
23 In addition, in his testimony earlier on, he indicated that these
24 reports were drawn up by intelligence officers. So he wasn't the person
25 drawing up the reports. They were put together by somebody else. He says
1 he did look at some of these reports from time to time. This may well be
2 one of the first times that the witness has seen this report or studied it
3 in any detail. And in our submission, we don't have, therefore, the
4 correct witness through which to introduce this document, which would
5 provide the Defence with a proper opportunity to -- to cross-examine on
6 the point of evidence, the presence of these fighters in a certain
7 position at a certain time. He didn't draw up the report, and more
8 importantly, he wasn't there at the critical time. And on that basis, we
9 would ask Your Honours not to admit this document into evidence at this
10 stage. It can be marked for -- for identification, as has been done with
11 many other documents. And when the appropriate witness does arrive, then
12 the matter could be reconsidered at that time. I'm grateful,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.
15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
16 General Hadzihasanovic's Defence counsel agrees with the arguments
17 presented by Mr. Kubura's Defence. Thank you, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.
19 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, if I may please
20 briefly respond.
21 We are at the very similar, if not the say, the very same
22 situation yesterday. And as Your Honour, the Presiding Judge, already
23 pointed out, yesterday the Prosecution at no point in time did object to
24 any of the milinfosums presented by the Defence being tendered, although
25 in all such instances only very small portions of the milinfosum were the
1 subject of any comments by the witness. This situation is exactly the
2 very same as yesterday, when documents presented -- milinfosums presented
3 by the Defence were tendered into evidence.
4 I also wish to draw the attention of the Trial Chamber to the
5 fact that the milinfosums are official documents, official documents of
6 BritBat and official documents of UNPROFOR, an UN -- official UN
7 organisation. The witness was able, Mr. President, Your Honours, to
8 comment on contents of the milinfosum in question. The witness attended
9 the regular 6.00 p.m. briefing meetings in Vitez in which such issues were
10 discussed. And the witness himself was making reference to the fact that
11 he has seen Mujahedin in Zenica and in the area surrounding Zenica.
12 Therefore, the Prosecution is of the view that this document, this
13 milinfosum, can be tendered into evidence and reiterates its request to do
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are there any other questions
16 you would like to ask the witness about the document, or have you finished
17 the questions you had about the document? Mr. Withopf, are there any
18 other questions you wanted to ask about any other parts of the document?
19 MR. WITHOPF: Just for clarification - and this may assist the
20 Trial Chamber in its final determination - if I may ask the witness a
21 question in respect to Mujahedin camps. With your permission,
22 Mr. President.
23 Q. Sir --
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But is this question one
25 that relates to this document or not?
1 MR. WITHOPF: It's not directly linked to this document, but it
2 may assist the Trial Chamber in making its final determination.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If that could help
4 us to take an informed decision, please go ahead with your question.
5 MR. WITHOPF: .
6 Q. Sir, during the time you were the liaison officer in Zenica and
7 the area surrounding Zenica, did you become aware of Mujahedin running any
8 camps in the area of Zenica or the surrounding area?
9 A. Yes. I was working with Norwegian's People Aid who were building
10 a refugee camp to the east of Zenica and they reported they had problems
11 with a Mujahedin training camp there and had asked for UNPROFOR assistance
12 to see if it could settle this matter.
13 Q. Were you present, sir, in the course of the regular 1800 hours'
14 meetings, briefing meetings, in Vitez at times when the Mujahedin issue
15 was raised and discussed during such meetings?
16 A. Yes, because I was sharing this information among with other
17 departmental heads in the British Battalion.
18 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
19 MR. WITHOPF: This additional information, Mr. President,
20 Your Honours, may assist the Trial Chamber in making its determination,
21 and the Prosecution reiterates its request to tender this document into
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
25 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
1 Defence would like to say that the questions that have just been put to
2 the witness don't -- won't enable the Trial Chamber to appreciate -- to
3 assess the truth, the value of the document. And I think that all the
4 issues -- all these issues have been raised by my colleague Mr. Dixon. If
5 we want to tender this document to say that -- to show that it's a BritBat
6 document, I don't think that the Defence objects to tendering the document
7 as such. The problem is the contents of the document.
8 The witness who is before the Trial Chamber today cannot provide
9 any information that would allow the Trial Chamber to verify the truth of
10 what is stated in paragraph 3. The Trial Chamber can take note of what is
11 in paragraph 2. The witness has told us today that via the contact that
12 he had he was aware of foreigners being present in the north of Zenica.
13 If we have a look at the map, Mr. President, we're not at all
14 referring to the same sector. We're not referring to the sector that the
15 witness was referring to. Later on we are certain that the witness will
16 talk about other meetings that he had, but what is mentioned in the
17 milinfosum is the Fazlici area, and that is not an area that was a part of
18 the area of responsibility of this witness. He says that he may have
19 heard this being discussed at meetings held at 6.00. These subjects were
20 discussed. But the fact that he heard about it is one thing; the fact
21 that he doesn't know who he heard it about -- who he heard it is another
22 matter. And today he cannot recall what is called the call sign in
23 paragraph 3; that means the vehicle, the team, the patrol who made these
24 observations. If the witness can say that yes, it's call sign 34 which
25 accompanied the platoon, in such a case this could give additional weight
1 to the probative value of the contents of the document. But how can we
2 give any probative value at the moment to an affirmation, to a claim that
3 is of great importance for our case. Given that the witness didn't
4 observe the area, he didn't know who made these observations, perhaps the
5 witness heard information about foreign soldiers.
6 But for all these reasons, Mr. President, it's Rule 89(C) that
7 should be respected by the Trial Chamber in this case; that is to say, it
8 has to do with the probative value and the right for a fair trial that the
9 accused have. How can we question this witness if he didn't see this
10 himself and doesn't know who provided this information? And for these
11 reasons, Mr. President, we think that if the Trial Chamber decides to
12 admit this document they should take into account the comments made by the
13 Defence. The only probative value of this document relates to the truth
14 of paragraph 2.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf, I'll let you
16 take the floor in a minute.
17 But first of all, Witness, when you had these meetings which took
18 place at 6.00, how many of you were there? There was
19 Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, the information officer, the liaison officer.
20 How many of you were there at the table?
21 THE WITNESS: Approximately about 20 people perhaps.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, there were about 20
23 of you.
24 And the patrols, did they have radio links with the command unit?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, they would have radio links with the command
1 unit, and the information would have been passed on when they came --
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The unit which
3 hasn't been identified which was on patrol and which saw Mujahedin in the
4 place in question, did this unit report via radio, or was it the person in
5 charge of the unit who was one of the 20 persons at the table?
6 THE WITNESS: I couldn't say how this was reported, whether it
7 was from radio message or whether it was a face-to-face meeting with the
8 intelligence officer. And therefore, it may not have been anyone at that
9 meeting who was present.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you discussed various
11 issues at these meetings and you knew that there was a report that was
12 going to be forwarded to your superiors, since these reports were intended
13 for various superiors, did they sometimes fail to mention certain events
14 in these reports if these events weren't sure? Did your colonel say,
15 "Yes, you have informed me of this, but I'm not going to take this into
16 account because it hasn't been verified, it's not certain"? Or did these
17 reports contain everything that was said without any checks having been
18 carried out?
19 THE WITNESS: These reports were compiled by the people involved
20 debriefing to the intelligence officer. So he would compile the
22 At the meeting at 6.00, we were given an overview of the day's
23 activities by the intelligence officer as a result of his meetings with
24 the people who had seen events on the ground.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I have understood you
1 correctly, it's the intelligence officer who would compile the report. He
2 drafted the report.
3 When you're mentioned as the liaison officer, did you make an
4 oral report or a written one? If you made a written report, he would
5 mention your report in -- in his report, or was there a record of the
6 meeting which would state that you spoke to mention an event? How did
7 these things happen? Did this intelligence officer compile a report on
8 the basis of the written documents provided by other persons, or was it a
9 document that was a record of the meeting that took place and which was
10 attended by the 20 persons we have mentioned?
11 THE WITNESS: These meetings I orally gave him the information,
12 which he would then compile into the milinfosum. So he would take notes
13 during our meeting to do an accurate report later on that evening.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're telling us that
15 during the meeting with the intelligence officer -- what was his name?
16 THE WITNESS: His name is Simon Harrison.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this intelligence officer
18 would take notes. And then on the basis of these notes, he would compile
19 his report.
20 Very well. Mr. Withopf, we now have a better understanding of
21 how this document was compiled. What do you have to say before we
22 withdraw to deliberate briefly?
23 MR. WITHOPF: Certainly, Mr. President, Your Honours, the witness
24 was able to provide additional information in favour -- in the view of the
25 Prosecution, in favour of the Prosecution's request to tender this
1 document into evidence.
2 If I may briefly respond to my learned friend's submission.
3 These are issues that have been discussed repeatedly. It appears to me
4 that my learned friend from the Defence side is mixing up two issues. The
5 one is the question of the admissibility of documents; and the other issue
6 is the probative value of such a document. The probative value has
7 nothing to do with the issue of admissibility of the document. And the
8 second issue is the issue of hearsay. Hearsay, as this Trial Chamber has
9 repeatedly ruled upon, is admissible, and the probative value will be
10 determined later on in the course of these proceedings. Therefore, the
11 Prosecution again reiterates its request to tender this document into
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Bourgon, I'll let you
14 take the floor for one last time, because this shouldn't turn into a
15 ping-pong game.
16 But we should point out, as the Prosecution has stated, two
17 matters should be distinguished, admissibility of a document, which is
18 based on the relevance of certain facts, and then the probative value of a
19 document. And this is for the Trial Chamber to decide at a subsequent
20 date. Mixing up these two matters can cause such problems.
21 If a document is admitted, this doesn't mean that the contents of
22 the document have probative value. The probative value of the document is
23 for the Trial Chamber to decide on at a subsequent date.
24 So I see that there's some confusion as to the distinction
25 between admissibility and probative value. The probative value is a
1 matter to be determined at a subsequent date once the Trial Chamber has
2 all the information at its disposal. All the more so in that there will
3 be other witnesses who will be appearing and who will be referring to
4 certain matters mentioned in this document. That is certain. So I don't
5 see why this document shouldn't be admitted at this stage. But we'll
6 deliberate about this.
7 Mr. Bourgon.
8 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We agree
9 with the Trial Chamber that there is a difference to be made between the
10 admissibility of a document and the probative value that a document should
11 be given. These are two entirely different matters, and the Defence is
12 not confusing these matters.
13 Nevertheless, there is a link between the two. This is referred
14 to in Rule 89(C), which says that if the probative value is far lower than
15 the relevance of the document and it could be detrimental to a fair trial,
16 in such a case there is a relation between the two ideas. These are two
17 different matters, but there is a link. And our argument today,
18 Mr. President, is that the probative value that we might give a document
19 that hasn't been established by the witness, and if the witness doesn't
20 know who provided the information, all the witness can tell us about is
21 how the document was compiled, well, that's one matter. But I'll go back
22 to the first issue, Mr. President.
23 Why does the Prosecution want to tender this document? Does it
24 want to tender the document to show that it exists? We don't object to
25 that. But is it to show that the contents are true? In such a case the
1 Defence stands by its objection. Thank you, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will withdraw.
3 Don't move. We'll be back in a few minutes.
4 --- Break taken at 11.27 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As I said, the Trial Chamber
7 has deliberated in order to decide whether this milinfosum number 30,
8 dated the 29th of May, 1993 should be admitted into evidence.
9 It is the opinion of the Trial Chamber that this document should
10 be admitted. The Defence argued that with regard to the fact that it was
11 stated there were Mujahedin in a certain place and that the witness didn't
12 see this himself. The Trial Chamber takes note of the Defence's position,
13 and the Trial Chamber will clarify this issue mentioned in the report.
14 But the witness wasn't an eyewitness of this event. It's just
15 based on hearsay. But that's not the only point referred to in the
16 document. The witness himself has mentioned other events mentioned in
17 paragraph 2, and as a result, as we did yesterday, we believe that this
18 document can be admitted into evidence. We believe that Rule 89 has been
19 respected, since the Defence in the course of its cross-examination can go
20 back to the issue and ask the witness all the appropriate questions.
21 So Mr. Registrar, could we have a number, please.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P99.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P99.
24 Please continue, Mr. Withopf.
25 Just a moment. The witness needs to sign and date this document.
1 Witness, will you please put your name and today's date on this
3 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As there's a document
5 translated into B/C/S, into French, and into English, we need numbers for
6 all three language versions.
7 Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the B/C/S version gets the exhibit
9 number P99/BCS; the French version gets the exhibit number P99/F.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Withopf, please
12 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
13 Q. Sir, a few minutes ago you already made reference to an issue
14 related to Mujahedin and a location called Arnauti. Can you please
15 provide the Trial Chamber with additional information on this issue.
16 A. Sorry, I didn't catch that. Did you say please ...?
17 Q. Can you please tell us more about this issue related to Arnauti.
18 MR. DIXON: Sorry, Your Honour, I don't wish to interrupt soon
19 again, but the witness never gave a name for where a particular camp might
20 have been situated.
21 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, if --
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that was my understanding.
23 Mr. Withopf, when the witness answered the question put to him,
24 did he mention this locality? I think not. But we need to check on the
1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, if you allow me to briefly consult
2 the transcript.
3 Mr. President, Your Honours, it appears to be correct that the
4 location which is known as Arnauti has not yet been mentioned by the
5 witness, and I do apologise.
6 Q. Sir, were you yourself during the time you were the liaison
7 officer between BritBat and the 3rd Corps, the ABiH 3rd Corps, were you
8 involved in any issues related to Mujahedin?
9 A. We got a call from the Norwegian's People Aid, who were based
10 east of Zenica in the Arnauti area, where they were building a refugee
11 camp. They had complained of a Mujahedin training area being located next
12 to it. And they were coming across saying that this refugee camp shouldn't
13 be built and they were planning to build a mosque. I had been called in,
14 as this was in the -- my area of responsibility, to see if we could
15 resolve the issue.
16 Q. And can you please also inform the Trial Chamber whether you were
17 able to resolve the issue; and if so, what you experienced while doing so.
18 A. We met at the Norwegian's People Aid location, where three, maybe
19 four Mujahedin members came across there. We had a meeting which was very
20 heated. And after quite a long discussion, we managed to settle the
21 disagreement and the Mujahedin would allow the Norwegian's People Aid to
22 have their refugee camp there.
23 Q. Does Arnauti, the location called Arnauti, does it fall within
24 the area of responsibility of the ABiH 3rd Corps?
25 A. Yes, it does.
1 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be given the Prosecution
2 Exhibit P98. That's the map used earlier on today.
3 Q. Sir, can you please put it on the ELMO and can you please, if
4 possible, identify on this map the location which you were just talking
5 about and which is called Arnauti.
6 A. Yes. I'm pointing to it now.
7 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be provided with a text
9 Q. And, sir, can you please encircle the location which is known as
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Is this the area where the Mujahedin had their camp?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you very much.
15 MR. WITHOPF: The map can be removed from the witness.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.
17 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Such an event as you just described, sir, with the Mujahedin in
19 Arnauti and the Norwegians complaining about them, would it have been an
20 issue you would have reported at the daily regular 1800 hours' meeting?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm now going to show
23 the witness milinfosum number 33 [sic], dated the 5th of June, 1993. We
24 have the necessary copies available in B/C/S and in English. Once the
25 French translations will be available, they will be tendered, if the
1 Trial Chamber allows us to tender the document.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MR. WITHOPF: I understand -- my case manager is just drawing my
4 attention to the fact that the milinfo number is not correctly reflected
5 in the transcript. It's milinfo number 37 -- sorry -- yes, 37.
6 Q. Sir, if I may draw your attention to page 3 of this milinfosum,
7 the portion number 10, paragraph number 10. And if you may, please, focus
8 on the section under capital letter B.
9 It says at the beginning "The Zenica LO reports the following,"
10 and then there are the capital letters, first A and then B.
11 Sir, are you the Zenica LO, meaning liaison officer, who is
12 referred to in this document?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Sir, have you reported what's written in this document under
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is the location which is detailed under 10.B as Arnauti, is this
18 the very same location you just marked at the map Prosecution Exhibit 98?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you, sir, please provide the Trial Chamber with some more
21 information in respect to what it mean that "the Mujahedin have confirmed
22 that they run a training camp in the area of Arnauti."
23 A. With my discussions with the Mujahedin, that they confirmed that
24 they were running a training camp in that area.
25 Q. Does it mean, sir, that you yourself met the Mujahedin who ran
1 the training camp in Arnauti and that you yourself had talked to them?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what's written in this milinfosum under 10.B, is it the
4 result of what they told you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Sir, may I in addition draw your attention to the portion under
7 number 5 of the very same milinfosum, number 5, which has the heading
8 "Zenica." My first question, sir: Did Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, did he
9 meet, to your knowledge, with Mr. Hadzihasanovic?
10 A. He met him on many occasions, and obviously the commanding
11 officer, Alastair Duncan, is reporting here in the milinfosum that -- the
12 result of that meeting.
13 Q. Have you, sir, have you been present at such meetings?
14 A. I was present at meetings, but not all of them.
15 Q. Did the commanding officer, Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, report
16 about such meetings at the daily 0800 [sic] hours' meetings in Vitez?
17 A. Yes, he did.
18 Q. Were you regularly present when Mr. Duncan reported at such
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did he, to your knowledge, whenever he met with
22 Mr. Hadzihasanovic report about the meeting?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did he report about what has been discussed, addressed at such
25 meetings and what Mr. Hadzihasanovic said at such meetings?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. May I please draw your attention, sir, to the section under 5,
3 which is identified as "comment." This is at the very end of section 5.
4 There it says, and I quote it, that "The BiH were no longer prepared to
5 restrain themselves and were likely to take the military initiative in the
6 Lasva Valley where they enjoy a tactical advantage over the HVO."
7 Sir, based on what you've seen on the ground and of what you got
8 to know talking to the many other people you were referring to earlier on
9 in your today's testimony, based on the reports by
10 Lieutenant Colonel Duncan at the daily 1800 meetings in Vitez, based on
11 this information, would you share the views expressed in this comment?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes
14 to tender this milinfosum into evidence, please.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm listening.
16 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 First of all, the first comment regarding the paragraphs that the
18 witness has referred to. We have absolutely no objection on the
19 paragraphs about which he was able to provide information to the Chamber.
20 Under the reservation of the decision taken by the Chamber on a similar
21 document, we have the same objections to make, that the probative value of
22 the other paragraphs will depend on the judgement of the Chamber made
24 But I would like to add -- I wanted to do it at the beginning,
25 but I preferred to allow the Prosecution to continue -- and that is that
1 the document such as it is presented to us now is accompanied by a
2 translation into B/C/S. As we mentioned to you earlier on, Mr. President,
3 the Defence is not informed in advance of the documents that will be used
4 through a particular witness. In this case, this translation was never
5 provided to us earlier on, and we were never able to discuss the contents
6 of it with the Prosecution.
7 Mr. President, we hesitate as to what to do in such a situation.
8 What we would like, Mr. President, would be for the Prosecution to
9 indicate to us which document they intend to use in continuation of the
10 examination-in-chief of this witness and the next witness so that we can
11 check that we have the translations in B/C/S, as applies to all the
12 documents on the list that need to be disclosed to the Defence, as covered
13 by the pre-trial brief of the Prosecution, so that we might discuss with
14 the accused the contents of these documents to be able to prepare
15 ourselves properly.
16 Therefore, we do not object to the admission of this document
17 under the reservation of the question of translation, but we would like to
18 Chamber to ask the Prosecution to provide us with the other documents or
19 to inform us of the numbers of the documents that will be used in
20 continuation so that we can check whether we have those documents
21 translated into B/C/S.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Withopf, regarding
23 this particular point that affects the rights of the accused, we have an
24 official document coming from the British Battalion, and this document and
25 its content is officially stamped, though there is no trace of the stamp.
1 It would appear that these documents communicated to the parties, be it
2 the Prosecution or the Defence, were redacted of other elements, because
3 there should be stamps, et cetera. This is one point which I wish to
5 On the other hand, regarding the rights of the accused, it is
6 necessary for them to be able to judge the translation into their own
7 language and to study the various paragraphs which may contain elements
8 against him. It is true that if a document of several pages is produced
9 at the last moment, the accused is in an inferior position because he
10 doesn't have time to examine the document. He's handicapped by the fact
11 that he cannot read the document in his own language. And though he's
12 assisted by lawyers who have command of English, but that is no reason for
13 the accused not to be able to have their say.
14 As pointed out quite rightly by the Defence counsel, the Chamber
15 is of the opinion that when you plan to tender a document into evidence,
16 because this document which appears on your consolidated list must have
17 been assessed by your side and you knew that you were going to tender it
18 into evidence, and therefore you should have at least informed the Defence
19 of your intention, providing them with a translation of that document so
20 that the Defence might, during the cross-examination, ask appropriate
21 questions. Otherwise, there's disequilibrium. And what has been just
22 said also applies to the Defence, which may have documents in B/C/S which
23 the Prosecution has no command of, and then we will have the same sort of
24 situation. And this remark applies to the Defence. If they intend to
25 tender certain documents they have, they need to have them translated into
1 English so that you can convey your opinion about them.
2 So we have a real problem here which needs to be taken into
3 consideration. I give you the floor, Mr. Withopf --
4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. President, for a
5 point of clarification. The first document, we didn't receive the
6 translation but we have found a translation of the document of the 5th of
7 June. This is the document which the Prosecution is tendering now. So we
8 did receive a translation. We do not wish to mislead the Chamber. And a
9 very brief adjournment would allow us to discuss with the Prosecution the
10 documents that we have received and which we have not so as to avoid any
11 further problem.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the document of the 5th of
13 June, 1993 should have been communicated to the Defence if it was on the
14 consolidated list. And this document should have been accompanied with a
15 B/C/S translation.
16 Mr. Withopf.
17 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I'm a bit surprised, to phrase it
18 politely -- I'm a bit surprised about the concerns raised by the Defence.
19 The document milinfosum number 37, dated the 5th of June, 1993
20 was disclosed in its English original on the 11th of September, 2001 to
21 the Defence, and the B/C/S translation was also disclosed in August 2001
22 to the Defence. That means Defence and the accused had two and a half
23 years' time to study this document, which is comprised of three pages.
24 I would wish, if Defence in future wishes to tell the
25 Trial Chamber that the Prosecution is not fulfilling its obligations, to
1 first consult the information which is at Defence counsel's disposal and
2 only later on make such observations as has just been made.
3 The Prosecution in anticipating such comments by Defence in this
4 particular -- and in respect to this particular witness has checked, prior
5 to the today's testimony of the witness, whether these documents are on
6 the exhibit list, and the Prosecution would be able to in respect to each
7 and every document it intends to use today to provide the Chamber with the
8 exact date as to when it has been disclosed in English and in B/C/S.
9 Again, I re-emphasise, this document has been disclosed in its
10 B/C/S translation two and a half years ago. The Prosecution reiterates
11 its request that this document be tendered into evidence.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall give the floor to
13 Mr. Bourgon in a minute.
14 But looking at the documents, we see that there's a number,
15 00273961, on the English text, which is proof that it was communicated to
16 the Defence, and the B/C/S version has another number, 03004069. So we
17 are told that the English document was disclosed to you on the 11th of
18 September, 2001 and the translation earlier, that is, August 2001. So
19 since you knew for a long time now that this witness was going to come and
20 that he belongs to the British Battalion, you should have expected this
21 type of report to be produced in support of the testimony of the witness.
22 So, Mr. Bourgon, are you going to tell me that it's a mistake?
23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Quite, Mr. President. It's a
24 mistake that I just told you. I took the floor before my colleague. I
25 told the Chamber that we didn't wish to mislead the Chamber, that we did
1 indeed receive the document of the 5th of June in B/C/S. However, the
2 previous document, dated in May, we did not receive it in B/C/S -- we did
3 not receive the translation of that document.
4 When a witness appears, we do our best to identify the documents
5 which will likely -- are likely to be used. Sometimes we may be mistaken
6 with the documents, but we do our best to find our documents and to check
7 whether we have a translation or not.
8 For the document of the 29th of May, we told the Prosecution that
9 we don't have that translation of that document. We still haven't
10 received it.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, we still have a
12 problem. The document of the 29th of May, which doesn't apparently have a
13 B/C/S translation. Could you tell us something about this document of the
14 29th of May. Where does the problem lie?
15 MR. WITHOPF: It may be correct - and I'm about to check
16 it - that this is the only document Defence hasn't received a B/C/S
17 translation. However, in the package Defence was provided with today, the
18 B/C/S translation forms part of.
19 If I may use this opportunity to draw the attention of the
20 Trial Chamber to what happens all the time in this courtroom. Whenever
21 Defence uses a document, Defence doesn't tell the Prosecution prior to
22 using this document. Only in very rare circumstances tells the
23 Prosecution five minutes prior to the court session that they want to use
24 a document and which document they wish to use. In terms of equality of
25 arms, this is certainly the very same situation for both parties. If the
1 Chamber - and I understand the Presiding Judge has already raised this
2 issue - if the Chamber wishes that the parties prior to the court session
3 tell the other party which document they wish to use, that should apply to
4 both parties, meaning that the Defence tells the Prosecution prior to the
5 court session which document they wish to use and provide the Prosecution
6 with an English translation of the document, if the original of this
7 document is only in B/C/S or any other language the Prosecution is not
8 able to understand.
9 The Prosecution so far didn't have a problem - I really wish to
10 emphasise this - with the procedure followed by the Defence, and we have
11 accepted it all the way through of this trial. However, if Defence wishes
12 to get such information days before the witness is called, this procedure
13 should apply vice versa as well.
14 The Prosecution is still prepared to continue on the basis as it
15 has been done in the past. However, if there would be a change, the
16 requirements should apply to the very same extent for both parties.
17 Thank you very much, Mr. President. And again, the Prosecution
18 reiterates its request to tender this milinfosum into evidence.
19 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'm
20 finding it a little difficult to follow my colleague. We haven't
21 complained about receiving or not receiving documents. The Prosecution is
22 in a certain position; the Defence in another position; and there really
23 are no problems as far as that is concerned.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.
18 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, we are in open session, and my
19 colleague -- colleague tells the Trial Chamber the names of witnesses.
20 The one or the other of these witnesses, even if they are so-called
21 international witnesses, may have security concerns. I don't think it's
22 appropriate to mention the names of the witnesses in public session. I
23 wish to have this redacted.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you
25 prepare an order to have the names mentioned redacted from the transcript,
1 because we don't know whether there will be any requests for protective
2 measures. But this is easy to deal with.
3 However, there are witnesses who will be appearing next week.
4 And apparently the Prosecution hasn't provided the Defence with the
5 translation of their statements into B/C/S.
6 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I also don't find it appropriate to
7 mention the names of other witnesses in front of a witness who is in the
8 courtroom. I find it highly problematic. I would recommend if this
9 discussion continues to usher the witness out of the courtroom.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But you want to
11 continue with the discussion about the translations, because the problem
12 isn't witness's names; the problem concerns the translations. We don't
13 necessarily have to refer to Person X, Y, or Z. The problem is there will
14 be witnesses, Witness X, Y, and Z, and their statements in English haven't
15 been translated into B/C/S. Am I right or not? It appears that the
16 Defence doesn't have a number of documents. But this can be dealt with
17 very rapidly.
18 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, what my learned friend from the
19 Defence side hasn't told the Trial Chamber, that these are, in the
20 majority, statements of witnesses whose statements were taken at the very
21 last stages of the investigation, meaning end of last year. The
22 Prosecution does follow the very regular proceedings; namely, request
23 translation immediately after the statement is in, and we are disclosing
24 at the very earliest opportunity once we received the translation. We are
25 working on a daily basis very close together with CLSS to
1 accommodate -- to accommodate the needs of Defence counsel, and we are, as
2 Defence is very well aware of, in almost all instances complying with our
3 legal obligations.
4 In the situations that there are problems, we regularly inform
5 Defence counsel as soon as we get to know, in order to avoid any further
6 problems. And the Prosecution, if I may add this, is taking care of the
7 wishes of Defence. For example, the Prosecution has, for the only reason
8 that Defence didn't have access to the ECMM materials, scheduled the ECMM
9 witnesses towards the very end of this trial in order to enable Defence to
10 properly prepare.
11 The Prosecution does appreciate that the Defence has the right
12 and has the need to timely prepare for the defence and it does everything,
13 each and everything what's possible to accommodate the particular needs of
14 the Defence. Whenever translations are available, they are disclosed
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will give a
17 number to the document dated the 5th of June, 1993.
18 Mr. Registrar, could we have a number for the English and for the
19 B/C/S versions, a final number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the English version gets the number
21 P100; and the B/C/S translation gets the exhibit number P100/BCS.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Mr. Withopf -- witness, could you make a note of your first and
24 last names on this document and also of today's date.
25 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf may then continue
2 with his examination-in-chief, given that these translation-related issues
3 have resulted in a loss of time.
4 Mr. Withopf, you may proceed.
5 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
6 Q. Sir, during the time you spent in Zenica as a liaison officer for
7 BritBat, did you become aware of situations that members of other
8 international organisations complained about the presence of Mujahedin in
9 the area?
10 A. Well, we had the aid organisation, the Norwegian's People Aid,
11 and there may have been other international organisations who have
12 complained when dealing with them. BritBat themselves had occasionally
13 difficulties when they were doing their patrolling.
14 Q. You earlier on, sir, mentioned that you on a very regular basis
15 and repeatedly had meetings with the 3rd Corps commander,
16 Mr. Enver Hadzihasanovic, in his headquarters in Zenica.
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 MR. WITHOPF: With the permission of the Trial Chamber, I'm now
19 going to show the witness a further milinfosum. It's the milinfosum
20 number 055, dated the 23rd of June, 1993.
21 For the information of the Trial Chamber and Defence counsel, the
22 English version has been disclosed on 7th of September, 2001. And
23 according to the information I have at my disposal now, the B/C/S version
24 has been disclosed on 10th of August, 2001.
25 Q. Sir, if I may, please, draw your attention to portion
1 number -- portions number -- paragraphs number 7 and 8, the portions on
2 page 3 with the heading "Zenica." And if I also may draw your attention,
3 sir, in particular to the portion under 8, please. May I please refer to
4 the portion, the very first six lines under paragraph 8. There's a
5 reference made to the following - and I quote - "The Zenica LO also noted
6 that 'Mujahedin' members were seen entering the ops room at 3 Corps
8 Sir, are you the Zenica LO referred to in this milinfosum?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you for the benefit of the Trial Chamber confirm today
11 whether what is written in this milinfosum and whether this particular
12 portion is correct, to your recollection.
13 A. Yes. Because this information I gathered out of -- debriefed the
14 intelligence officer who had compiled this report.
15 Q. If I may draw, sir, your attention to the portion which is
16 following the description "comment." May I draw your particular attention
17 to the following portion, which I'm going to quote now: "This cell
18 believes that they are under effective control as they are invariably
19 found at the point of 3rd Corps main effort. The recent campaign in the
20 Bila Valley clearly demonstrated this." And this portion - that was the
21 end of the quote - this portion is making, as can be seen from the
22 document, is making reference to the Mujahedin.
23 Sir, from what you have seen yourself, from the information you
24 were able to gather, from the daily 1800 hours' meetings in Vitez, based
25 on the information you got from talking to the various people you
1 mentioned today earlier on in your statement, is this statement that I
2 just quoted, is this a statement you would confirm?
3 A. Yes. I think this was -- having collected all the information,
4 the intelligence cell, we had been discussing were they under effective
5 control. And because they were seen as elite troops, they were used to
6 fight the war effectively where they were needed.
7 Q. Can you please expand on why they were seen as elite troops.
8 A. They were seen to be more committed, more determined, more
9 courageous in fighting the war for their fellow Muslim brothers, and
10 therefore it made good military sense to use, you know, the more effective
11 troops where they needed to capture important ground.
12 Q. And can you please, sir, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber
13 also explain what you understand under "they were used to fight the war
14 effectively where they were needed."
15 A. If there was a -- an area of tactical or strategic importance,
16 them being sort of considered better, more elite troops, were obviously
17 used to capture that ground.
18 Q. And to your knowledge and what you got to know as a result of the
19 daily meetings and as a result having talked to the variety of people you
20 mentioned earlier on today in your testimony, who was making the decision
21 to have the Mujahedin fighting with the other ABiH units?
22 A. Well, this was obviously a decision made by the 3 Corps chain of
23 command to locate their units in their appropriate place.
24 Q. Sir, if I may draw your attention to a further portion, in
25 paragraph 8, under "comment." And I'm quoting the portion I wish to draw
1 your attention to. It says: "Therefore, the labeling of them" - and
2 "them" is making reference to the Mujahedin - "as uncontrollable becomes a
3 convenient means of deflecting criticism away from 3rd Corps whilst still
4 utilising their proven tactical worth. In this context Hadzihasanovic's
5 letter to his superior command, requesting permission to deal with the
6 problem, might be regarded as rhetoric." May I please draw your attention
7 to this particular portion.
8 Sir, based on what you have seen yourself, based on what you got
9 to know in travelling in the area -- in the wider area of Zenica, based on
10 what you got to know attending -- regularly attending the 1800 hours'
11 meeting each and every day in Vitez, based on what you got to know in
12 talking to the variety of people you mentioned earlier on today during
13 your testimony, would you today, to your recollection, would you confirm
14 this statement?
15 A. Yes. This -- this would confirm what was happening at the time.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.
17 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
18 In the course of its cross-examination, the Defence will go into
19 detail to -- but we believe that it might be useful if the Prosecution is
20 ready to do this, it would be useful to know who made these comments. Was
21 it the witness? Was it the intelligence cell? Were they other officers?
22 This is all hearsay. The Trial Chamber has already rendered a decision
23 about hearsay and said that it was necessary to establish the source.
24 Will the source appear as a witness? Will we be provided with additional
25 information, or are we to base ourselves on hearsay alone? Is hearsay the
1 only element that the Prosecution can evoke when a witness appears and
2 then the witness says yes, that's his opinion. It's not just a matter of
3 a witness's opinion, we also need to know the source of hearsay evidence.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Prosecution has
5 shown you a document. In paragraph 8 of the document in question, there
6 is a comment in the middle of the paragraph and there is an assessment
7 that is made. So the question is: The comment, which is in fact a
8 conclusion based on a number of factors, whose comment is this? Who made
9 this comment? Did you do so? Did the intelligence officer do it? Did
10 Lieutenant Colonel Duncan make this comment? Or is this a summary of what
11 was said at the table, at the meeting on the 23rd of June? As far as you
12 are concerned, how can you clarify this for us? How can you clarify the
13 conclusion that is presented, the conclusion of a discussion that must
14 have taken place on that day? What can you tell us about this subject?
15 THE WITNESS: The comment is written by the intelligence officer,
16 and the word "this cell" is often known as an intelligence cell. So
17 that's where that phrase comes from. The intelligence officer will have
18 compiled the -- the reports that, for instance, I made as liaison officer
19 and combined it with also Colonel Alastair Duncan's meetings and
20 information. So he had the benefit of collating all the information from
21 the different departments within the British Battalion, and he would write
22 the comment. So there, as a result of debriefings he'd received from me,
23 you know, he would also sort of analyse this and sort of put that comment
24 in at the end.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, when the
1 report was completed, was it submitted to the lieutenant colonel, to
2 Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, for -- for it to be approved of? Did he read
3 through the final document, or did he not do so? Was it just forwarded
4 further up the chain of command, forwarded to other authorities? Was this
5 document reread and approved by Lieutenant Colonel Duncan? What could you
6 us about this?
7 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that he always read all of them before
8 they were sent off, but I'm sure there must have been occasions when he
9 read them before they were sent up the chain of command.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for this explanation.
11 Mr. Withopf, we have a few more minutes before our break. But we
12 could have our break now.
13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I'm actually about to finish the
14 examination-in-chief. If you'd allow me five additional minutes, I would
15 finish the examination-in-chief.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have your five minutes.
17 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
18 Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes to tender
19 milinfosum number 055, dated 23rd of June, 1993 into evidence, please.
20 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Subject to certain provisions, the
21 paragraph which was discussed by the witness and the other paragraphs, so
22 the Defence stands by its objections, Mr. President. Thank you.
23 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. I don't want to trample
24 over old ground, but we are in the same situation again where the comment
25 that was made is not one which was made by -- by this witness. It's
1 recorded in the -- the summary, but the witness has said this is a comment
2 of somebody else.
3 Of course, Your Honour, I understand the distinction between
4 admissibility and probative value; that's the position the Defence has
5 propagated on numerous occasions. But there is also the -- seeking to
6 obtain the best evidence in a trial. The best [Realtime transcript read
7 in error "Bosanski Samac"] evidence rule is a well-known rule in criminal
8 law and international criminal law. And we, in our submission, should
9 guard against introducing a string of hearsay statements and comments when
10 it is quite possible for Your Honours to hear the evidence from the person
11 directly. And that's the only caution I -- I wish to make.
12 In addition to that, Your Honours, the only observation would be
13 that when this witness was asked to comment on this comment, it -- it was
14 a situation where the comment was read out to the witness and he was
15 simply asked to -- to confirm it. Your Honours might think that is one of
16 the more extreme forms of -- of leading a witness. The witness could have
17 been asked what his views were without showing him this document. He made
18 certain observations at the time. He could have been asked to give his
19 opinion without being shown the comment of somebody else who might not
20 even be called as a witness. I'm grateful, Your Honours.
21 Sorry, there is one correction to the transcript. I see "the
22 best evidence rule" was translated as "the Bosanski Samac evidence rule."
23 And I certainly wasn't referring to that as a new rule of evidence on
24 international criminal law. It's the best evidence rule. Thank you,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Mr. Withopf.
3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, the last issue is certainly an issue
4 both Defence and Prosecution can agree upon.
5 In respect - and I'm referring to the Bosanski Samac rule
6 obviously, to avoid any confusion.
7 In respect to the other comments made my learned friend, it
8 appears to be quite important, and that's the reason why the Prosecution
9 is using the milinfosums. It appears to be quite important to emphasise
10 that the milinfosums, as two witnesses meanwhile have confirmed, were
11 compiled and put together the day of the regular 1800 meetings in Vitez.
12 What's written in the milinfosum reflects the level of information which
13 was compiled by BritBat at the time.
14 The witness has not only commented on the portion that's
15 contained in the milinfosum. The witness has been asked whether he, based
16 on the various sources of information he had at his disposal, is able to
17 confirm, based on his own knowledge - and that was the obvious gist of the
18 question - whether he is able to confirm based on his own knowledge the
19 comments made by somebody else, and the witness has clearly answered this
20 question to the positive. Therefore, this is not an issue of hearsay;
21 this is the witness's own account.
22 Again, the Prosecution reiterates its request to tender this
23 document into evidence, please.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have any other
1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, this is the last question to the
2 witness, and the examination-in-chief would be finished once the
3 Trial Chamber has made its decision in respect to tendering this document
4 into evidence.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll inform you of
6 our decision a little later. It's twenty-five to 1.00, and we will resume
7 at 1.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber is rendering its
11 ruling regarding the admission of Exhibit 55 -- or rather, milinfosum 55,
12 dated the 23rd of June, 1993.
13 The Chamber asks the registrar to give it an exhibit number. The
14 Chamber has taken note of the observations made by Mr. Dixon. Clearly
15 this document could also have been introduced when a future witness comes.
16 But as we have a witness who is confirming the elements contained in this
17 document, it is convenient to admit it, though it could be admitted on
18 another occasion.
19 In any event, the probative value will be determined
21 Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will get the exhibit
23 number P101; and the B/C/S translation, the exhibit number P101/BCS.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Mr. Withopf.
1 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
2 As foreshadowed prior to the break, the Prosecution has no
3 further questions at this point in time.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have taken note
5 of that for what you said in particular "for the moment," or "at this
6 point in time."
7 We give the floor now to the Defence for their cross-examination.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kiggell.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. I'm Edina Residovic, and I am Defence counsel for
13 General Enver Hadzihasanovic. In accordance with the Rules and the
14 practice of this Trial Chamber, I will first ask you some general
15 questions regarding the situation about which you're able to testify, on
16 the basis of your knowledge of the facts while you were in the territory
17 of Central Bosnia. I will also have some questions to you linked to
18 today's testimony. If any of my questions is unclear or too
19 comprehensive, please tell me to make myself clearer.
20 Mr. Kiggell, you said that you started your military career in
21 the British Army in 1987; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. To the completion of training in December 1988 in the rank of
24 second lieutenant, you were designated to a platoon commander attached to
25 the Prince of Wales Own Regiment; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In January 1990, you were deployed to Northern Ireland, where you
3 served for about four to five months; is that right?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Upon your return from Northern Ireland, you became commander of a
6 military team, a duty that you performed for about 14 months; is that
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. Then again in November 1991, you were sent to Northern Ireland
10 again, and you stayed in that position for about half a year; is that
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. In answer to a question from my learned friend, you said that you
14 attended a major course, which you completed in December 1992; is that
16 A. That is correct, yes.
17 Q. After completing this course, you returned to the Prince of Wales
18 Own Battalion, and you were appointed second-in-charge of the company; is
19 that right?
20 A. That's correct. It was "C" Company.
21 Q. In answer to a question from my colleague, you also said that at
22 the beginning of 1993 you were informed that you would be deployed in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that so?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. The assignment was part of the peace mission of the
1 United Nations, known as UNPROFOR for short; isn't that so?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. In order to prepare for your future assignments and mission, in
4 March 1993 you attended several training courses designed to familiarise
5 you with the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina; isn't that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Before that, in view of the work you did in the British Army, you
8 didn't have any specific knowledge about Bosnia and Herzegovina and what
9 was going on there, did you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. During your training, you were informed about the military
12 situation in the area where you were going on mission, weren't you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When you arrived in Split, you also received some information
15 regarding the fighting and the locations of those battles, as well as
16 about the forces participating in those battles; isn't that right?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. You had particular interest in receiving the information relevant
19 to Central Bosnia, where you were assigned to, and you received that
20 information, didn't you?
21 A. Yes, we did, and also what was happening in the Tuzla region.
22 Q. On the basis of all these training courses and briefings, at the
23 time you arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina you knew that Bosnia and
24 Herzegovina was one of the six republics of the former SFRY which in 1992
25 was granted its independence. Were you aware of that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You also knew that in May 1992 it was admitted as a member of the
3 United Nations organisation, didn't you?
4 A. I must have done at the time, yes. I can't remember the exact
6 Q. You probably learnt about the fact that on the day of its
7 recognition Bosnia and Herzegovina was attacked by the Yugoslav army and
8 Serb forces. Were you aware of that fact?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Upon arriving in Bosnia and Herzegovina, though you had
11 significant military experience behind you, nevertheless you didn't have
12 any experience in combat areas, in war-riddled areas; is that right?
13 A. No. The operational tours I did in Northern Ireland were to do
14 with terrorists, but not open civil war as was occurring in Bosnia.
15 Q. During your trainings, did the information you receive tell you
16 that what was going on in Bosnia and Herzegovina was a civil war?
17 A. I think -- I think the terminology of "civil war," it was a war
18 going on within the different republics within the former Yugoslavia, so
19 my terminology may have not been correct in that last answer I gave you.
20 Q. Thank you for your clarification.
21 Before coming to Bosnia and Herzegovina, you had never taken part
22 in peace missions of the United Nations, nor did you have any such
23 experience, did you?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. You arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina, as you have already told
1 us, in April; to be specific, on the 28th of April, 1993. And as you
2 already said, you were put up in the old school in Nova Bila, a few
3 kilometres from Vitez; isn't that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Before you, the Cheshire Regiment was part of the British forces,
6 and they left the area on the 11th of May, 1993; is that right?
7 A. I can't remember the exact date, but it must have been early May
8 they left.
9 Q. In any event, you can confirm that for a while, for 7 to 15 days,
10 you were together with your colleagues who were on mission in the area
11 before you.
12 A. Yes, that's true.
13 Q. During this joint stay in the area of Central Bosnia, you learnt
14 additional things from your colleagues about the situation in the area of
15 Vitez and the broader area of Central Bosnia; isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes, that's true. I went into Zenica with some of the members of
17 the Cheshire Battalion. And then a few days later, I was also sent up to
18 Tuzla to hand over that region from the departing liaison officer.
19 Q. You were familiar with the Security Council resolution
20 establishing the mandate of UNPROFOR, which means also the mandate for
21 your own battalion.
22 A. Yes, I am.
23 Q. You knew, didn't you, that the previous mandate of UNPROFOR was
24 inadequate and that in September 1992 the Security Council extended the
25 mandate of UNPROFOR, assigning it to protecting land convoys of
1 humanitarian aid organised by UNHCR and also to protect the International
2 Red Cross Committee's work in the exchange of prisoners? Were you aware
3 of this extended mandate of UNPROFOR?
4 A. I can't recall the change, but I certainly remember the role that
5 we had to protect the humanitarian aid convoys and help where was
7 Q. So what I have just said was the mandate given to your mission in
8 Central Bosnia, wasn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Additionally, you were entitled to use arms for self-defence;
11 that is, should you be attacked in performing your duties. Isn't that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. From early May, from the 1st to the 21st of May, you were on duty
15 in Tuzla, where a part of the BritBat was being set in motion; and then on
16 the 23rd of May, you returned to Vitez again. Is that right?
17 A. That's about right in time, yes.
18 Q. Precisely during that period the command of your battalion
19 decided to deploy liaison officers in what it considered to be important
20 strategic areas so as to have a clearer idea of what was going on on the
21 ground in the military, social, and political spheres. Was that at the
22 time of your return?
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. Your battalion commander was Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, wasn't
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Duncan reviewed this decision and agreed about
3 it with the commander of the 3rd Corps, General Hadzihasanovic, as well as
4 with HVO commanders, didn't he?
5 A. I think he set the ground for liaison officers to be assigned to
6 various -- the 3 Corps and HVO components. Whether he did it before or
7 after we'd be assigned, I'm not clear on.
8 Q. Actually, the main purpose for establishing liaison officers was
9 to fully implement your mission in terms of free movement of humanitarian
10 aid convoys; isn't that correct?
11 A. That's right, yes.
12 Q. Prior experience made it necessary to envisage potential hot
13 points, and that is why the task of the liaison officer was to prepare as
14 well as he could all the necessary information for the routes for
15 humanitarian aid convoys to be safe and secured prior to the convoys
16 getting on the road; is that right?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. You also had the task of gathering information about the areas of
19 combat or potential areas of combat so that you might better plan the
20 routes to be taken by humanitarian convoys; isn't that so?
21 A. That is correct. We were aimed to get as best a picture of what
22 was going on in our area of responsibility.
23 Q. So after this decision, on the 21st of May, as you already told
24 us, you were designated the liaison officer for the Zenica region, weren't
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. For the British Battalion, Zenica was important, as the command
3 of the 3rd Corps was situated there.
4 A. That is correct, yes.
5 Q. It was also significant because routes leading towards Northern
6 and North-Eastern Bosnia passed through Zenica, that is, towards Maglaj,
7 Zavidovici, and Tuzla; would you agree?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Within the framework of the battalion, there were two companies
10 stationed in the area of Vitez; whereas, one company was in Gornji Vakuf,
11 wasn't it?
12 A. That's true. But we also had a company based up in Tuzla.
13 Q. These two companies that were based in the area of Vitez,
14 pursuant to the rules of BritBat, would be replaced after a week so that
15 one company secured the command, whereas the other company would be on the
16 ground escorting convoys or investigating the areas. Isn't that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. They usually changed roles every seven days, didn't they?
19 A. I think so, yes. I can't remember the exact time period.
20 Q. The area of responsibility of the 3rd Corps was quite
21 considerable, and it covered the whole of Central Bosnia, didn't it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Upon arriving in Zenica, you immediately established contact with
24 the 3rd Corps command, didn't you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. As you have already told us, in answer from questions -- to
2 questions from our learned friends, you carried out your duties by, among
3 other things, meeting in Zenica with representatives of the European
4 monitors and other international non-governmental organisations, didn't
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. At the local level, you would meet with representatives of the
8 civilian and religious life and with ordinary people in the street.
9 A. Yes, that's true.
10 Q. However, as a military man, most frequently you had
11 communications with the 3rd Corps, didn't you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You already told my learned friend that regularly, on a daily
14 basis you had meetings in the battalion that were attended by company
15 commanders, liaison officers, intelligence officers, and others; isn't
16 that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. As a liaison officer, at that meeting you would convey the
19 information you had gathered during the day from various sources, didn't
21 A. That's right, yes.
22 Q. Some of your sources were quite reliable; whereas, others had a
23 lower degree of reliability, and some were quite unreliable. Isn't that
25 A. Yes, that's true to say.
1 Q. At the meeting, you would give your own assessment of the
2 knowledge you had gathered that day, but you didn't always necessarily
3 assess the degree of reliability of the sources of your information, did
5 A. I would give a summary of the information I had gained and would
6 sometimes pass comment on how reliable it was or not, as the case may be.
7 Q. Your colleagues acted in a similar manner, the colleagues that
8 were attending that meeting, didn't they?
9 A. Yes. The liaison officers, if they had gained information from
10 talking to people, would give their assessment on the accuracy of that
12 Q. Some of the information that you conveyed, in view of the degree
13 of reliability, required additional effort for them to be subsequently
14 verified in various other ways; is that right?
15 A. Yes, that's correct. We would often perhaps send out another
16 vehicle or call sign, as we would call it, out the following day to verify
17 perhaps movements or where people were located.
18 Q. As a liaison officer for Zenica, you would give information
19 either to the intelligence officer but most frequently at the regular
20 meetings about the movement of forces, the names of commanders you met or
21 whose names you learnt, and also about locations and any signs of possible
22 conflict along the routes of humanitarian aid convoys; is that right?
23 A. Yes. I would debrief the information I'd gained that day to the
24 intelligence officer, who'd write it down. And I'd also give a summary at
25 the 6.00 meeting.
1 Q. You have already answered that question to some extent, but I
2 would like to ask you once again to tell me whether on the basis of all
3 the information that you gathered a single report was compiled, known as
4 the milinfosum. Is that right?
5 A. That is correct, yes.
6 Q. And as we were able to see from the milinfosums that were shown
7 to you, these reports contained information provided by a certain person.
8 Then it contained comments by the intelligence officer. And my question
9 to you is: Is it true that it also contained information about meetings
10 that the battalion commander may have had either with representatives of
11 the BH army or with representatives of the HVO?
12 A. Yes. In the milinfosum, it would say "CO 1 PWO met
13 Enver Hadzihasanovic," for example ^.
14 Q. If your battalion commander, Lieutenant Colonel Duncan, met in
15 Zenica with Commander Hadzihasanovic, it was customary for you to attend
16 that meeting and to keep notes at that meeting; isn't that right?
17 A. That's right. But I wasn't always present. Sometimes
18 Lieutenant Colonel Duncan and Enver Hadzihasanovic met by themselves.
19 Q. I should now like to ask you kindly that we go back for a moment
20 to your arrival at the 3rd Corps. You said that during the first few days
21 of your mission you met with the Commander Hadzihasanovic almost daily.
22 Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Those meetings took place in his office; isn't that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You said that you believed that the 3rd Corps was in the
2 direction of the Zenica steelworks. If I told you that the 3rd Corps was
3 in fact -- was not in fact located in the direction of the Zenica
4 steelworks but, rather, in a building which located the Institute for
5 Engineering and Planning for that steelwork, you would certainly agree
6 with me.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. This was the project office of the Zenica steelworks; isn't that
10 A. It must be, yes.
11 Q. In view of your answer, you would agree with me that
12 Commander Hadzihasanovic's office wasn't the one used by the director of
13 the Zenica steelworks. It was one of the rooms in this design building.
14 Isn't that correct?
15 A. Yes. I was trying to give a description earlier on. It was a
16 large office that he used.
17 Q. If we were able to visualise this office, as my colleague thought
18 that this was an important issue - and I don't want this to remain
19 unclear - one might say that it was a room which was 5 or 5 and a half
20 metres by 3 or 3 and a half metres.
21 A. Yes, approximately.
22 Q. There was the commander's desk in that room. There was a
23 circular table, with 8 seats, 8 chairs for meetings. And there was other
24 furniture for meetings with individual commanders. Is that what one could
25 find in that room?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. As you have already said, quite frequently or at all times
3 whenever you were there you noticed the commander had military maps on his
4 desk, and you would agree that it is quite normal for a corps commander to
5 have military maps in his office and on his desk, given that this was a
6 commander who was involved in a war. Is that a normal situation?
7 A. Yes, totally normal.
8 Q. When you reported to the 3rd Corps commander as the liaison
9 officer, they made it possible for you to carry out your duties as the
10 liaison officer under normal conditions; isn't that right?
11 A. Yes, that was -- we had very civil conversations and he helped me
12 where possible.
13 Q. Although you returned to Vitez every day, within the 3rd Corps
14 command you were provided with a room where you could spend time while
15 performing your duties in Zenica in the course of the day; is that
17 A. Yes. This would be the room where I was assigned a liaison
18 officer, who I think his name was Edo, if I remember correctly.
19 Q. We have mentioned Officer Edo again, and I would like to remind
20 you about something and ask you whether this was an intelligence officer
21 who was close to Commander Hadzihasanovic, whose name was Edin Husic ^,
22 also known as Edo. Would that be the person in question?
23 A. Yes, that seems to be the same person.
24 Q. It was quite normal, in your opinion, that a corps commander in
25 normal conditions, and especially in wartime conditions, couldn't be at
1 the disposal of the liaison officer from the British Battalion on a daily
2 basis. This was normal for you, and it was understandable. Isn't that
4 A. Yes, very understandable. He was fighting a war, so I'd speak to
5 somebody within 3 Corps.
6 Q. However, every day, Edin Husic was at your disposal. He was at
7 the disposal of the British Battalion's liaison officer. Isn't that
9 A. Yes, generally every day he was available.
10 Q. Whenever you asked Officer Husic to do something, he did all he
11 could in order to provide you with the information you requested; that is
12 to say, to establish the contacts that you wanted to establish. Isn't
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If there were any problems, problems of any kind that you could
16 not resolve with Officer Husic or if there was a problem that was outside
17 the scope of your responsibilities, then there would be meetings between
18 Colonel Duncan and Commander Hadzihasanovic; isn't that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And this was also quite normal, in your opinion. The battalion
21 commander should have communication with the corps commander, that would
22 be the normal route of establishing such contact. Isn't that correct?
23 A. Yes, it would be quite normal for my commanding officer also to
24 have a direct relationship with the commander of 3 Corps.
25 Q. You also said that on a number of occasions you also met the
1 deputy corps commander, Dzemal Merdan; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Dzemal Merdan, just like Commander Hadzihasanovic and
4 Officer Husic, attempted to answer all the questions that you had and to
5 find the best way that would enable you to successfully carry out the
6 mission that you had been assigned as the liaison officer; isn't that
8 A. Yes, generally that's correct.
9 Q. When performing that mandate, up until the 31st of August, 1993,
10 you can confirm that there was not a single situation in the area under
11 the control of the BH army in which there were problems or in which
12 humanitarian aid convoys were stopped. And this was your main and primary
13 task. Is that correct?
14 A. There were sometimes occasions of problems of transit through a
15 checkpoint, which we would then have to go to 3 Corps to get permission to
16 get through. And sometimes this would delay the whole convoy, and
17 sometimes we may not be able to do it for that day, we'd have to do it for
18 a second day. So we'd have to get a piece of paper signed by either
19 Hadzihasanovic, Merdan, or someone from 3 Corps to let us go that
20 checkpoint, to let the convoy go through.
21 Q. However, you would agree with me if I said that although there
22 were perhaps slight delays, all the humanitarian aid convoys escorted by
23 the UNHCR or by other international organisations that you assisted
24 managed to pass through the areas under the control of the 3rd Corps
25 without any problems, or rather, they managed to pass through the areas
1 where you were located. That is to say, they passed through Zenica
2 without any problems.
3 A. Yes, part -- I would agree with that. They passed through Zenica
4 without any problems.
5 Q. However, in the course of the testimony you have given here
6 today, you said that on occasion it was difficult for you to pass through
7 a checkpoint and on such occasions you had to receive permission to pass
8 through. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You also said that such permission was usually given to you by
11 Dzemal Merdan; isn't that right?
12 A. Yes. I think sometimes people would ask, you know, for
13 Hadzihasanovic's signature. We had to get so many pieces of paper. I
14 can't remember who -- you know, how many signed each at each time.
15 Q. On the main road used by the humanitarian aid convoys, there were
16 no such problems. Or if there were any such problems, they were very
17 slight. I'm referring to the main routes used by the humanitarian
18 convoys. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In fact, the problems first started appearing when your vehicles
21 or you personally or some of the convoys entered areas which were closer
22 to the confrontation lines; is that right?
23 A. That may have occurred. There was one occasion where Merdan had
24 complained to me where a British Army vehicle, a Warrior, had -- was at a
25 key point for the BiH forces.
1 Q. And similarly, if such locations were close to the confrontation
2 lines or areas where there was open fighting, this could pose a risk for
3 the safety of UNPROFOR; isn't that correct?
4 A. Possibly, yes.
5 Q. So it was quite normal for a commander to first draw your
6 attention to this fact or to request that the fighting cease before you
7 entered a given area with your forces, and it was normal for him to do so
8 in order to ensure your safety; isn't that correct?
9 A. There would have been occasions where we asked for -- you know,
10 for a safe transit of either UNPROFOR or the aid organisations through an
11 area, so we would organise a cease-fire.
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, given that I'll
14 now be moving on to another area that I would like to question the witness
15 about and it is now quarter to 2.00, perhaps this might be the right time
16 to -- to stop.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 Mr. Withopf, the witness will unfortunately have to return
19 tomorrow. He was here yesterday too. But there is nothing else to be
20 done, since the cross-examination must be continued.
21 So, Witness, please come back tomorrow morning and I think that
22 by the end of the morning you will be able to leave.
23 I'll now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom, and I
24 will see you tomorrow.
25 Madam Usher, please escort the witness out of the courtroom.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf.
3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, can we please go into
4 private session, since the Prosecution wishes to raise an issue related to
5 another witness?
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's go into
7 private session.
8 [Private session]
12 Page 5049 – redacted – private session.
12 Page 5050 – redacted – private session.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of
19 March, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.