Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5666

1 Wednesday, 7 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, will you please

6 call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Can we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

12 Honours. Good morning, Counsel. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis,

13 Ekkehard Withopf, and the case manager, Ruth Karper.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

15 And for the Defence, please.

16 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Good morning, Madam Judge. Good

17 morning, Your Honour. Good morning, Mr. President. Representing

18 General Hadzihasanovic is Mr. Alexis Demirdjian and myself, Stephane

19 Bourgon. Thank you, Mr. President.

20 MR. DIXON: Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of Mr. Kubura

21 for today, Mr. Rodney Dixon.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber bids

23 good morning to all those present, Mr. Withopf, Mr. Mundis, the three

24 attorneys for the accused, the accused, as well as the registrar, who we

25 see has come back - with pleasure we welcome him - as well as the usher

Page 5667

1 of this courtroom and all the staff in the courtroom, the court reporter,

2 the interpreters, and the assistant, without of course forgetting the

3 security officers.

4 We need today to continue with the examination-in-chief of the

5 witness. But before bringing the witness in, I want to make it quite

6 clear to avoid any confusion that we addressed yesterday the question of

7 documents which will be examined at a hearing specially devoted to

8 documents. That hearing, in the opinion of the Chamber, should not take

9 longer than one week, which means that it should take place over five

10 days on the outside. Perhaps less, but not beyond one week. And that is

11 why I told Mr. Withopf yesterday that one should plan that week either

12 one week prior to General Reinhardt's testimony or a week after his

13 testimony so that there should be no confusion regarding the scheduling

14 of these hearings. So on the outside five days, as a minimum three or

15 four days. That will obviously depend on the positions of both parties.

16 In order to ensure the smooth conduct of the proceedings, it was

17 already indicated yesterday but I wish to remind you all of it, that the

18 Prosecutor will produce their document explaining the document with

19 arguments of the relevance of that document for the Prosecution and in

20 relation to the pre-trial brief requesting the admission of that document

21 by the Prosecution.

22 After that, which will probably take a few minutes only, after

23 that submission, the Defence will make their observations, which of

24 course also have to be concise, for it will not be possible to have -- to

25 spend hours over a single document. Therefore, you must concentrate

Page 5668

1 yourself on the objections you have and present them in roughly the same

2 amount of time as the Prosecution takes, if there are objections. Of

3 course, you will have time to familiarise yourself with those documents

4 and to finalise your position.

5 We will do this for the documents that may cause problems, and we

6 will deal with them document by document. That is why we have suggested

7 that categories of documents be formed by the 19th of April according to

8 the criteria that I referred to.

9 The Chamber just wished to add these few words to the ruling made

10 yesterday.

11 Mr. Usher, will you bring the witness in, please.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Sir Martin.

14 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you hearing the translation

16 well?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, absolutely.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please take a seat.

19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall give the floor to

21 Mr. Withopf, who is going to continue with his questions for you as part

22 of his examination-in-chief, which he started yesterday.

23 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.


25 Examined by Mr. Withopf: [Continued]

Page 5669

1 Q. Good morning, Sir Martin.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. Sir Martin, whilst you've been in Zenica in 1993 and in 1994, did

4 you get to know who the commander or the commanders of the ABiH 3rd Corps

5 have been?

6 A. Yes. During my time, it was first of all General Hadzihasanovic,

7 followed by General Alagic.

8 Q. Do you recall the point in time as to when General Hadzihasanovic

9 was followed by General Alagic?

10 A. It was sometime in November. I think it was mid-November that he

11 handed over.

12 Q. Sir Martin, did you get a chance to get to know

13 General Hadzihasanovic yourself?

14 A. Yes. We had quite a number of meetings.

15 Q. Did this meeting take place on a regular basis?

16 A. Not on a regular basis from the point of view of a set time or a

17 set day. It was more as required, when there was something that I needed

18 to raise or General Hadzihasanovic needed to raise.

19 Q. Where did these meetings take place?

20 A. In his headquarters.

21 Q. And where were his headquarters located at the time?

22 A. They were located in Zenica, not very far from where we were

23 based.

24 Q. Sir Martin, did you get to know about General Hadzihasanovic's

25 previous military career prior to having joined the ABiH?

Page 5670

1 A. I knew that he had served in the JNA, the Yugoslav National Army,

2 but I was not aware of the details of exactly where he had served or what

3 he had done in the JNA.

4 Q. Based on what you got to know, Sir Martin, and based on what you

5 have seen and heard, and based on your knowledge having served as an

6 officer in the British Army for 37 years, what do you think about the

7 professionalism of Hadzihasanovic?

8 A. He always gave the impression to me of being a thoroughly

9 professional soldier, and my understanding was he was absolutely clear

10 and straight in his dealings with me.

11 Q. Was he in power?

12 A. Yes. It was clear he had authority in 3 Corps.

13 Q. Was he in command and in control over his units subordinated to

14 3 Corps?

15 A. To my knowledge, yes. Perhaps I should add in parentheses here

16 that I had always had a slightly uneasy feeling that both the HVO, the

17 Croat army, and the ABiH, because they were so young and so new - they'd

18 only been running for about a year - I had doubts about some of the

19 lower-level commanders and quality of the soldiers.

20 Q. Whenever you had the chance to talk to Hadzihasanovic - and I

21 understand such meetings took place repeatedly - did you get the

22 impression that Hadzihasanovic was informed what was going on in the

23 field?

24 A. Again, he always gave me the impression of being very well aware

25 of what was going on throughout his whole area of command.

Page 5671












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5672

1 Q. Can you please give us an example or examples.

2 A. Well, I cannot -- it's difficult to give specific examples, but

3 whenever I asked questions, I would get what I believed to be straight

4 answers. And, for example, although I was not deliberately checking up

5 on what he said, if I went to the headquarters of General Alagic, who was

6 then commanding the operational zone based in Travnik, I would hear

7 similar stories which tied in with what General Hadzihasanovic had told

8 me, which was I believed corroboration.

9 Q. Sir Martin, did you get to know at the time who Hadzihasanovic's

10 deputy was?

11 A. Yes. It was a man called Dzemal Merdan, who I believe had been

12 formerly a naval officer.

13 Q. A naval officer within the JNA?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the course of your meetings and discussions with

16 Hadzihasanovic, was the issue of the military discipline discussed?

17 A. Yes. I remember it came up specifically at a meeting when we had

18 Ambassador De Baans, who was the Belgian head of the mission at that

19 time, and we were discussing amongst other things discipline. And I

20 think as Ambassador De Baans asked General Hadzihasanovic whether he was

21 satisfied with the discipline in his corps, in his forces, and the reply

22 was yes, he was; but then he said, "Is any commander fully satisfied with

23 the discipline of his forces?" And he made the comment, was the

24 commander of the British Battalion satisfied with the discipline

25 throughout his full battalion.

Page 5673

1 Q. Who at the time was the commander of the BritBat battalion?

2 A. It was Lieutenant Colonel Alastair Duncan.

3 Q. Sir Martin, I am now going to show you a document. It is an ECMM

4 report of 3 November 1993.

5 MR. WITHOPF: For the information of the Trial Chamber and

6 Defence, this document has been marked for identification as P181 by a

7 decision of the Trial Chamber of 2nd of April. It's a document which is

8 not contested by Defence, obviously. Unfortunately, Sanction is not

9 working today for technical reasons. We, however, have the respective

10 numbers of photocopies available in both English and B/C/S. The French

11 translation will follow at a later point, once it is available.

12 Q. Sir Martin, if you could please have a look at the document and

13 first, please, identify who is the originator of this document.

14 A. I clearly wrote this report myself.

15 Q. For the benefit of the Trial Chamber, Sir Martin, can you please

16 have a look at the first page and explain the abbreviations at the very

17 top of this page.

18 A. Yes. The -- right at the very top it is HRC Zenica, which stands

19 for the head of the regional centre Zenica, and that at the time was me.

20 And then it's addressed to HCC Mostar and HCC Travnik, head of

21 the coordinating centre Mostar and head of the coordinating centre

22 Travnik.

23 Q. Thank you, Sir Martin.

24 Sir Martin, if I may draw your attention, please, to page 8 of

25 this document. And on page 8, to paragraph 9. This is the paragraph

Page 5674

1 which starts with the words "When asked whether he was satisfied with the

2 discipline in 3rd Corps ...."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Does this paragraph, Sir Martin, does it reflect the conversation

5 with Hadzihasanovic you were just informing the Trial Chamber about?

6 A. Yes. Yes, it does.

7 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes

8 to tender this document into evidence and be given a final Prosecution

9 exhibit number, please.

10 Can the witness please keep this document, since later on I will

11 have additional questions in relation to this one.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf. The

13 number was P121 marked for identification, so it should become 181. It's

14 a document recognised and identified by the witness.

15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes, it is a document regarding

16 which we have already commented on. It can be admitted into the file.

17 But we wish to note that documents of this kind, consisting of several

18 pages -- in our opinion we need to judge the probative value of these

19 documents regarding certain paragraphs but not regarding the entire

20 content of the document.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

22 Mr. Dixon.

23 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, this is an uncontested document, so it

24 should be admitted.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5675

1 Continue, Mr. Withopf.

2 Mr. Registrar, will you give us the final number.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the English version gets the

4 exhibit number P181, and the B/C/S translation gets the exhibit number

5 P181/BCS.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Sir Martin, in the course of meetings and discussions with

9 Hadzihasanovic, was the issue of the Mujahedin ever raised?

10 A. Yes. I used to raise it regularly when I had meetings with

11 Bosniak leaders.

12 Q. Including General Hadzihasanovic?

13 A. Including General Hadzihasanovic.

14 Q. Did you and/or General Hadzihasanovic actually use the word

15 "Mujahedin"?

16 A. Yes, I'm sure I would have done. Yes.

17 Q. In the course of such meetings and discussions, what was

18 discussed from your side and/or from Hadzihasanovic's side in respect to

19 the Mujahedin?

20 A. I was always very interested and concerned about the Mujahedin,

21 and so I used to ask what was the situation. It was quite clear that

22 General Hadzihasanovic and his successor did not like the Mujahedin.

23 They used to say that there were a few who were fighting well for the

24 Bosniaks but there were others who, clearly, they would wish to have out

25 of their area. However, the impression always given to me was that they

Page 5676

1 considered that they had them under control, that they were under

2 command.

3 Q. Sir Martin, I'm now going to show you a further document, please.

4 This is the ECMM report of the 29th of October, 1993. The respective

5 numbers of photocopies are available in English, B/C/S, and they are also

6 available in its French translations.

7 Sir Martin, can you please first identify for the benefit of the

8 Trial Chamber who drafted this document.

9 A. This was clearly sent out by William Stutt, the head of the

10 coordinating centre Travnik.

11 Q. From what you told us yesterday, Sir Martin - and you informed

12 the Trial Chamber about the way and the manner such documents were put

13 together, and they were discussed prior to being sent out and they were

14 discussed with you, and you gave approval for such documents - do you

15 consider yourself being in a position to comment on the contents of this

16 document?

17 A. Perhaps I could just clarify one point. This was a document sent

18 to my headquarters, and therefore I would not have had any say in this

19 before we received it as a report, because this is a report coming to my

20 headquarters from HCC Travnik, which would then be incorporated or parts

21 of it would be incorporated into the RC Zenica report, which would be

22 sent off to Zagreb.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would

25 just like to learn from my learned friend what is the number of this

Page 5677

1 document on the list of documents, because I have three documents with

2 this date and it doesn't appear to follow the order 1, 2, 3.

3 MR. WITHOPF: For the information of the Trial Chamber and my

4 learned friend from the Defence, this has been marked for identification

5 by a decision of the Trial Chamber of 2nd of April with the ID number

6 P178.

7 Q. Sir Martin, if you could please have a look again at the first

8 page, at the very top. And for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, can you

9 please very briefly explain what the abbreviations do mean.

10 A. Yes. The HQ Zagreb HUM stands for the headquarters of the ECMM

11 and addressed HUM is -- it would go to the humanitarian cell in the

12 headquarters.

13 CC Mostar was the coordinating centre Mostar.

14 CC Tuzla, the coordinating centre Tuzla.

15 ECLO Kiseljak was the EC liaison officer at Kiseljak.


17 [Interpretation] We're obliged to stop for about ten minutes

18 because there's a technical problem. So we are going to have a

19 ten-minute break now.

20 --- Recess taken at 9.27 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume.

23 Mr. Bourgon isn't present, but a Defence lawyer is present, and

24 naturally he will represent the accused. We hope that Mr. Bourgon will

25 be arriving shortly.

Page 5678

1 Mr. Withopf, you may proceed.

2 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution has

3 strong concerns to proceed. Defence counsel for the accused

4 Hadzihasanovic is not in the courtroom. The person who is in the

5 courtroom is a legal assistant to Defence counsel. I think it's not

6 appropriate to continue with the examination-in-chief of Sir Martin.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Dixon, where is

8 your colleague?

9 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, I am not sure where he is at the moment.

10 He was in the Defence room a moment ago, and inquiries were made as to

11 where he was. Perhaps if a telephone call could be made, Your Honour, he

12 could be located.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will try to find

14 him -- here he is. We were waiting for you, Mr. Bourgon.

15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President. I was

16 in the building.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf.

18 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.

19 Q. Sir Martin, I do apologise for the break. This was for technical

20 reasons, obviously.

21 Sir Martin, I understand that you still have in front of you the

22 ECMM report of the 29th of October, 1993, and you were about for the

23 benefit of the Trial Chamber to explain what the abbreviations do mean.

24 A. Yes. If I could just repeat. At the top, HQ Zagreb is the

25 headquarters of the ECMM, and the HUM stands for the "humanitarian cell."

Page 5679

1 Coordinating centre Mostar; coordinating centre Tuzla. And the ECLO

2 Kiseljak stands for the EC liaison officer in Kiseljak, which was then

3 the headquarters of UNPROFOR, just down the road.

4 V2 Gornji Vakuf is the team Victor 2, one of the four teams of

5 CC Travnik based down in Gornji Vakuf.

6 Q. Thank you, Sir Martin. If I may now please draw your attention

7 to page 1, under paragraph 1. There is a heading "Political," and then

8 there is a second paragraph which starts with "V1." Can you please tell

9 the Trial Chamber for what "V1" stands for.

10 A. V1 or Victor 1 was the team of CC Travnik based -- or covering

11 the Vitez-Busovaca-Travnik area.

12 Q. And if you, Sir Martin, please could have a look at the very last

13 lines, the three last lines of this paragraph, which read "... but

14 suggested that Mujahedin units could have been there and he would not

15 know because they reported directly to 3 Corps BiH." Sir Martin, is this

16 statement in the ECMM report in line with what you told us about your

17 conversations and discussions with Hadzihasanovic about the subordination

18 of the Mujahedin?

19 A. Yes. My understanding always was that the Mujahedin were

20 theoretically under the command of 3 Corps.

21 Q. Thank you, Sir Martin.

22 MR. WITHOPF: The Prosecution wishes to tender this document into

23 evidence.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence counsel.

25 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no

Page 5680

1 objections, but we would like to make a correction as far as the

2 identification of the document on the list is concerned. The document at

3 the moment has the number P178, marked for identification, and it says

4 "The European Community Monitoring Mission, RC Zenica [as interpreted],

5 Daily Summary." The date is the 29th of October. And the document in

6 question here is a report that comes from the coordination centre of

7 Travnik. So we would like a correction to be made as far as the title

8 of the document is concerned. Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This document comes

10 from the coordination centre. It will be recorded in the transcript.

11 Mr. Dixon.

12 MR. DIXON: No objection with regard to this document.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Mr. Registrar, could we have an exhibit number for all three

15 versions, the B/C/S version, the English version, and the French one. [In

16 English] 178.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the English version gets exhibit

18 number P178; the B/C/S translation gets the exhibit number P178/BCS; and

19 the French translation gets the exhibit number P178/F.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please keep this report, since we

22 need it at a later stage of the proceedings.

23 Q. Sir Martin, do you know an individual with the name Asim Fazlic?

24 A. Asim Fazlic, yes, he was the chief of police in Zenica.

25 Q. Did there come a time, Sir Martin, when you discussed the issue

Page 5681

1 of subordination of the Mujahedin with Mr. Fazlic?

2 A. Yes. In one of the meetings that I had with him, we did discuss

3 that.

4 Q. And do you still recall what Mr. Fazlic told you about the

5 subordination of the Mujahedin?

6 A. Mr. Fazlic during that meeting said that the Mujahedin were under

7 the command of 3 Corps.

8 MR. WITHOPF: With the permission of the Trial Chamber, I'm now

9 going to show the witness a further document. It's the ECMM report of

10 6 January 1994. It has been marked for identification with P230 by a

11 decision of the Trial Chamber of 2nd of April. This document is also not

12 contested by Defence.

13 Q. Sir Martin, if I may, please, draw your attention to page 3 and

14 page 4, and on page 3 to paragraph 4, and on page 4 to the first

15 paragraph, which starts with the word "comment." Can you please first

16 tell the Trial Chamber for what the abbreviation HRC, at the beginning of

17 paragraph 4, stands for.

18 A. HRC stands for "head of the regional centre," which was me.

19 Q. Can you please, Sir Martin, have a look at the last paragraph on

20 page 3, which starts with the words "On the subject of the Mujahedin

21 ...." And the question is: Does what's written in this report, does it

22 reflect the result of your conversation with Mr. Asim Fazlic?

23 A. Yes. Because this is a report written by myself -- no, it's

24 actually signed by the operations officer. But I am quite sure that I

25 would have produced that input, because it was the meeting that I had

Page 5682

1 attended.

2 Q. In the middle of this paragraph, it reads: "He stated clearly

3 that they were all under the command of 3 BiH Corps." And there he's

4 making reference to the Mujahedin. Can you confirm today, Sir Martin,

5 that Mr. Asim Fazlic made such a statement?

6 A. Yes. Because I read this report immediately after the meeting,

7 that evening, and I would have taken notes, and so that is what he

8 clearly said.

9 Q. Sir Martin, at the time you met with Mr. Fazlic and you discussed

10 this very same issue with him, at the time and in respect to the issues

11 discussed, what were your views on Mr. Fazlic's professionalism and

12 reliability?

13 A. I was impressed by Fazlic. He was young, I'd say about 35;

14 dynamic. And I thought him a thoroughly professional police officer.

15 Q. May I please in this context, Sir Martin, draw your attention to

16 the first paragraph on page 4, which starts with the word "Comment." It

17 reads: "Fazlic is a young dynamic chief of police who laughs a lot and

18 gives the impression of being thoroughly professional and determined in

19 his duties. He also appears genuine." It makes a statement about the

20 Mujahedin being under the command of 3 BiH Corps: "... most interesting

21 - as that was certainly not the impression given by Alagic."

22 Sir Martin, is this your comment?

23 A. This is my comment, yes.

24 Q. And is it still today your view on Mr. Fazlic?

25 A. That was my view of Mr. Fazlic, and I've had no reason in the

Page 5683

1 ensuing years to change my view because I've never seen or heard of

2 Mr. Fazlic again.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. -- thank you, Sir Martin.

4 MR. WITHOPF: The Prosecution wishes to tender this document into

5 evidence, please.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence.

7 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We have

8 no objections to having this document admitted into evidence.

9 Nevertheless, Mr. President, we'd like to make the same comment again.

10 There are certain paragraphs in this document that haven't been referred

11 to by the witness, but more importantly, the date of this document is the

12 6th of January, 1994 and that is beyond the ratione temporis referred to

13 in the indictment. Thank you, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have taken notes

15 of your comments.

16 Mr. Dixon.

17 MR. DIXON: No objections.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the English version gets the

20 exhibit number P230; the B/C/S translation gets the exhibit number

21 P230/BCS.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Mr. Withopf.


25 Q. Sir Martin, did you ever during the time you spent in Zenica meet

Page 5684

1 an individual with the name Stipan Radic?

2 A. Yes. Stipan Radic, he was the Franciscan priest in Zenica.

3 Q. Did you ever meet him?

4 A. Yes. I had quite a number of meetings with him and had a high

5 opinion of him.

6 Q. On what, Sir Martin, was your high opinion of Stipan Radic based

7 upon?

8 A. He was looking after the remaining Croats in Zenica. He had a

9 difficult job, and it was clear that he was a most-dedicated man. And if

10 one can use the phrase, I would say he really was a man of God. He

11 struck me as being a very good man.

12 Q. What sort of issues have you discussed with Stipan Radic?

13 A. We quite often discussed the problem of harassment of Croats by

14 Bosniak soldiers, mainly on the villages on the outskirts of Zenica in

15 the direction of Vitez.

16 Q. Whenever, Sir Martin, you discussed the issues you just explained

17 to us with Stipan Radic, how would you assess his reliability in the

18 sense whether his statements turned out to be true or not?

19 A. I think they did turn out to be true because when they were

20 followed up by the Bosniak commanders, they accepted that there was a

21 problem and invariably there was an improvement in the situation.

22 Q. I understand, Sir Martin, you still have in front of you the ECMM

23 report of 3 November 1993, which is Prosecution Exhibit P181.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If I may, please, draw your attention, Sir Martin, to pages 5 and

Page 5685

1 6. On page 5, to paragraphs 2, 3, and 4; and on page 6, to paragraph 5.

2 Please take your time to read it carefully.

3 A. I'm sorry, you said paragraphs 2 and 3 on -- paragraph 5 -- on

4 page 5?

5 Q. Right. And then on page 5, there starts paragraph 4 --

6 A. 4 and 5.

7 Q. Right. And then paragraph 5 on page 6.

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Please take your time to read it carefully.

10 A. All right.

11 Q. Sir Martin, this portion of this report is headed by "Meeting

12 between HOM and Father Stipan Radic," and some others, obviously. And if

13 I do recall correctly, you were HOM; isn't that correct?

14 A. I was HRC. The HOM was the head of mission, who was the

15 Ambassador De Baans. But I was present at this meeting, I -- I'm pretty

16 sure I must have been present. Yes. Yeah.

17 Q. Since you were present at this meeting with Father Stipan Radic,

18 is what's written under paragraphs 2 to 5, is it correctly reflected in

19 the report what has been discussed?

20 A. Yes, that is a correct reflection of the -- of the meeting.

21 Q. Does this statement, Sir Martin, also apply to the content of

22 paragraph 4, which is partially on page 5 and partially on page 6?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes

25 -- I think we already tendered it into evidence. It's Prosecution

Page 5686

1 Exhibit P181.

2 Q. Sir Martin, I'm now moving on to a different matter. Were you

3 ever been informed about the kidnapping of Croats in Travnik?

4 A. Yes. There was a particular -- I think I -- this incident came

5 to a head sometime in December, when I was informed of a Croat called

6 Adzaip who had been kidnapped by the Mujahedin. I was informed this by

7 the Victor 1 team from Travnik, and the story was that Adzaip had been

8 converted to Islam by the Mujahedin and then had been let out for some

9 "leave" and then decided that he did not want to go back and therefore

10 was very fearful for his life, frightened of the Mujahedin.

11 Q. Did you get to know who was responsible for the kidnapping of

12 Mr. Adzaip and other Croats?

13 A. There was -- to my mind, there was no doubt that it was the

14 Mujahedin, and I think it was -- well, General Alagic was in command at

15 the time, and he certainly did not deny that it was the Mujahedin who

16 were responsible.

17 Q. In this context of Croats being kidnapped by Mujahedin, did you

18 get to know about an individual with the family name Popovic?

19 A. Yes. I received a letter. I knew that he was one of the four --

20 of that particular four who had been kidnapped. And then I received a

21 letter from Popovic's wife -- Dragoljub, I think his name was, Dragoljub

22 Popovic -- from his wife, Liljana, asking me to -- said that her husband

23 had been missing since October and asking me to do what I could.

24 Q. And after, Sir Martin, after you had received that letter, what

25 did you do?

Page 5687

1 A. I had more than one meeting with General Alagic, who was then

2 commander of 3 Corps. He expressed himself very concerned about the

3 matter. He said he knew the Popovic family and he would do what he could

4 to find out what had happened to him.

5 Q. And did you get to know what he actually found out?

6 A. No. I think my last letter back to Mrs. Popovic telling her that

7 I had not been able to find out was probably in January. I can't

8 remember exactly. But to my great regret, by the time I left Zenica in

9 April, I still had not found out then what had happened to Popovic.

10 Q. Since you are referring to a letter to Mrs. Popovic, Sir Martin,

11 can the witness be -- please be provided with the letter of 1st January

12 1994.

13 MR. WITHOPF: For the information of the Trial Chamber and the

14 Defence, this letter is marked for identification as P182 by a decision

15 of the Trial Chamber of 2nd of April, and it's obviously a document not

16 contested by the Defence.

17 Q. Sir Martin, I understand you have the letter in front of you.

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. Is this the letter you were referring to a minute ago?

20 A. Yes. Yes, that is the letter I wrote to Mrs. Popovic.

21 Q. It makes reference to meetings with General Alagic. Is this

22 reference correct?

23 A. Yes. Yes, those are the meetings which I referred to a few

24 minutes ago.

25 Q. Thank you, Sir Martin.

Page 5688

1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes

2 to tender this letter into evidence, please.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Mr. Registrar, can we -- just a moment.

5 Mr. Bourgon.

6 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. No

7 objection to this document being admitted. It was obviously written by

8 the witness. Nevertheless, we would like to point out that the letter is

9 dated the 1st of January, 1994, for the benefit of the transcript.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon?

11 Very well. Mr. Registrar, please.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours exhibit number P183, and -- P182,

13 and the B/C/S translation gets exhibit number P182/BCS.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Mr. Withopf, continue.


17 Q. In this very same context, Sir Martin - and I understand you

18 still have in front of you the ECMM report of the 29th of October, 1993 -

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please have a look at page 2, the second paragraph, which

21 starts with "V1" - Victor 1 - and can you please read it carefully.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At the time you've been in Zenica, did you become aware of this

24 meeting and what has been discussed with Alagic?

25 A. I was -- I think I was aware, but I am afraid I did not get

Page 5689

1 involved in this particular business about the hostages until Victor 1

2 came to see me in connection with Adzaip and Popovic. In other words, I

3 was not directly involved on the 29th of October.

4 Q. Does this portion of the document, however, does it reflect what

5 you have been informed about at a later point in time?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Sir Martin, I also understand that you still have the ECMM report

8 of 6 January 1994 in front of you.

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. Can I now, please, draw your attention at page 3 at the very

11 bottom. More specifically, at the last four lines, which read as

12 follows: "When asked about the 'Mujahedin' at Mehurici, where Popovic

13 and the other three who were seized by the 'Mujahedin' were held, he said

14 that this force was also under the command of 3 BiH Corps." The person

15 who said this is obviously Mr. Asim Fazlic.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you please confirm today that this was told to you by

18 Mr. Asim Fazlic?

19 A. Yes, indeed. As I say, this is a report actually signed by the

20 operations officer, but this section would have been inserted by me, as

21 it was I who attended the meeting.

22 MR. WITHOPF: And can the witness in the very same context now

23 please be provided, with the permission of the Trial Chamber, of the ECMM

24 report of 4 November 1993.

25 For the information of the Trial Chamber and the Defence, this

Page 5690

1 document is marked for identification following the decision of the Trial

2 Chamber of 2nd of April as P198. The English original, the B/C/S, and

3 the French translations are available.

4 Q. Sir Martin, can you please first identify who was responsible for

5 drafting this report.

6 A. It is signed by William Stutt, the head of the coordinating

7 centre Travnik.

8 Q. May I please, Sir Martin, draw your attention to page 3 of this

9 report, and in particular to the short paragraph under 6, which is headed

10 with "Other matters."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In this paragraph is written: "Meanwhile, he will attempt to

13 assist with the problem of hostages taken by Mujahedin in Travnik." And

14 the person who is referred to is obviously Commander Alagic.

15 A. Mm-hm.

16 Q. Does this statement in the report reflect what you got to know

17 about Alagic's involvement in this issue?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. -- Sir Martin.

20 MR. WITHOPF: The Prosecution, Mr. President, Your Honours,

21 wishes to tender this document into evidence.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

24 Defence has no objection to the admission of this document; however, the

25 Defence would like to note that the witness answered a moment ago that he

Page 5691

1 was not personally involved in this type of event and also that he learnt

2 about these things later. Thank you, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.

4 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. No objection.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the English version gets the

7 exhibit number P198; the B/C/S translation gets the exhibit number

8 P198/BCS; and the French translation gets the exhibit number P198/F.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Mr. Dixon -- I'm sorry, Mr. Withopf, you have the floor.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

12 Q. Sir Martin, we are now moving on to another subject. Did you get

13 to know whether ABiH units took over Vares?

14 A. I got to know -- I think it was the very day that it happened,

15 which as far as I can remember was about the 3rd of November.

16 Q. And can you please, Sir Martin, inform the Trial Chamber as to

17 how you got to know about it.

18 A. I was informed about it by the head of the coordinating centre

19 Travnik, who'd -- he'd received the reports from his team Victor 4 which

20 covered that area.

21 MR. WITHOPF: I understand, Mr. President --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The Trial Chamber will

23 adjourn at five to 12.00 because there will be one minute of silence. We

24 will resume -- so at 12.00 it is necessary to have one minutes' silence.

25 Mr. Withopf.

Page 5692

1 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. Sir Martin, you were just informing us that you were informed

3 about the situation in Vares by the head of the coordination centre

4 Travnik. What did he actually inform you about?

5 A. That the Bosniak -- the ABiH had seized Vares and the Croat - the

6 HVO - had fled, and that the ABiH were in control of Vares.

7 Q. Did you yourself, Sir Martin, did you go to Vares?

8 A. Yes. I went up -- I heard about this I think in the evening.

9 The following day I went up to Vares with William Stutt, the head of the

10 coordinating centre Travnik.

11 Q. Do you recall the date as to when you arrived in Vares?

12 A. I am pretty sure it was the 4th of November.

13 Q. The 4th of November, 1993 or --

14 A. 4th of November, 1993, yes.

15 Q. Once you arrived in Vares, what was the military situation about?

16 A. Well, it was clear that the ABiH were in control, although there

17 were some very extraordinary scenes going on. I likened it at the time

18 to Dodge City in the Wild West because there were soldiers, ABiH soldiers

19 who appeared to be drunk going around shooting their weapons. I called

20 it "slivovitz shooting," not firing at any enemy but firing into the air

21 in a pretty dangerous manner. There was a lot of damage, broken windows,

22 smashed-in doors, but it was not possible to say whether that had been

23 done by the ABiH or it had been done by the withdrawing HVO.

24 Q. You were just saying, Sir Martin, "by the withdrawing HVO."

25 Having seen Vares immediately after the takeover by the ABiH, did you get

Page 5693

1 the impression that Vares was defended by the HVO?

2 A. I -- my reckoning was they had decided to move out without

3 putting up a fight.

4 Q. You were also mentioning that you have seen ABiH units in Vares

5 on the 4th of November, 1993. Are you in a position to detail which

6 units, ABiH units you have seen?

7 A. Certainly -- certainly as we approached on the outskirts of

8 Vares, it was the 7th Muslim Brigade. But -- so all the soldiers within

9 Vares, I couldn't identify them by units.

10 Q. The 7th Muslim Brigade soldiers on the outskirts of Vares, --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- how were you able to identify them as 7th Muslim Brigade

13 soldiers?

14 A. I -- I clearly identified them as Muslim Brigade. I can only

15 think that it was insignia they were wearing on their shoulders specific

16 to 7 Muslim Brigade. Certainly we did identify them as 7 Muslim Brigade.

17 Q. You were mentioning earlier on, Sir Martin, that you arrived in

18 Vares on the 4th of November, 1993. Do you still have a recollection as

19 to when, what time during the day?

20 A. I think we went up fairly early. It took about an hour, an hour

21 and a half to get up to Vares, so my guess is it was probably half past

22 9.00, 10.00, that sort of time.

23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm close to finishing

24 the examination-in-chief; however, I have a document to show to the

25 witness, and it will certainly take another five minutes or so. I would

Page 5694

1 therefore suggest to have the short break now.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we'll have the break, as I

3 announced. It is now nine minutes to noon. We will have a break, and we

4 will resume at five past 12.00.

5 And I would like to ask those who remain in this courtroom to

6 observe a minute of silence at noon, as has been requested for all the

7 buildings within the UN family.

8 So we will have a break and resume at five past 12.00.

9 --- Break taken at 11.52 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, you may proceed.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

13 Q. Sir Martin, a small point for clarification. You earlier on

14 mentioned that you arrived in Vares on the 4th of November, 1993 in the

15 evening. Just prior to the break, you informed us, asked about the time,

16 "probably half past 9.00, 10.00, that sort of time." For clarification

17 only, was it in the evening or in the morning?

18 A. I'm sorry, I don't recall saying previously that I'd arrived in

19 the evening. I said I'd heard about it in the evening and decided to go

20 up the following morning with William Stutt. So the fact that I went up

21 in the evening is not correct. I heard about it in the evening.

22 Q. And to make it absolutely clear, you arrived in Vares at about

23 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning of the 4th of November, 1993.

24 A. To the best of my memory, yes. Yes.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you.

Page 5695

1 Sir Martin, I understand you still have in front of you the ECMM

2 report of 4 November 1993, which is Prosecution Exhibit P198.

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. Can you, Sir Martin, please have a look at the first page and at

5 the first page at paragraph 1, which has the heading "General situation

6 Vares," and can you read it for a second, please.

7 A. Yes. Yeah.

8 Q. Does this paragraph and its contents, does it reflect what you

9 yourself have seen in Vares on the 4th of November, 1993?

10 A. Yes, it does. The report was written by William Stutt, who of

11 course we were together, and it does reflect the situation.

12 Q. Thank you very much, Sir Martin.

13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, this concludes the

14 Prosecution's examination-in-chief.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

16 As the Defence has already told us - but I would like this to be

17 confirmed - they will cross-examine the witness at a subsequent date. Is

18 that correct, Mr. Bourgon?

19 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. In fact,

20 the Defence would like to cross-examine the witness, Sir Martin Garrod,

21 at a subsequent date. Nevertheless, Mr. President, at this point in time

22 the Defence would like to express the fact that it regrets that it cannot

23 cross-examine Sir Martin Garrod today for two reasons: Firstly, because

24 Sir Martin Garrod will have to come back to The Hague; and also,

25 Mr. President, we regret that we can't clarify -- we're not in a position

Page 5696

1 to clarify certain parts of Mr. Garrod's testimony today and so that this

2 could enable the Trial Chamber to assess all the details of Mr. Garrod's

3 testimony.

4 We would like to express our gratitude to the witness, Sir Martin

5 Garrod who agreed to meet us on Monday evening to enable us to prepare

6 ourselves. Since his testimony has started, we can't meet him again

7 before the beginning of the cross-examination.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

9 Mr. Dixon.

10 MR. DIXON: Your Honours, simply to confirm what Mr. Bourgon has

11 said; nothing further from the part of Mr. Kubura.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Sir Martin Garrod,

13 the Trial Chamber would like to thank you for having testified. We'd

14 like to thank you for the first part of your testimony that you gave

15 within the framework of the examination-in-chief. You have understood

16 that because of disclosure of certain exhibits the Defence wants to be in

17 a position to conduct an efficient cross-examination, and as a result you

18 will have to return to The Hague. We don't know when yet, but naturally

19 the Prosecution will try to fix a date with you and they will try to find

20 a date that won't pose a problem for you.

21 Within the framework of these proceedings, which consist of an

22 examination-in-chief and cross-examination, it is customary for the

23 witness not to meet the parties after the beginning of the

24 examination-in-chief. So you should no longer meet either of the parties

25 now. You should just wait to be informed of the date when you should

Page 5697

1 return. If you're not able to return, you should let us know, because if

2 you can't, that's not your fault. Naturally, the Trial Chamber wishes

3 you a safe trip home, and naturally we would like to thank you for having

4 come here and testified before the Tribunal.

5 I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, I am listening to

9 you.

10 MR. WITHOPF: In respect as to when Sir Martin is expected to be

11 back, there are two opportunities; however, Sir Martin first has to

12 consult his agenda. It would be either the 27th of April or the 12th of

13 May. For the sake of the transcript, a very small issue I wish to

14 emphasise, since Sir Martin is under oath, any contacts, even in respect

15 to the scheduling of his cross-examination, will be made via the Victims

16 and Witness Section. The Prosecution will certainly not get in contact

17 with Sir Martin. I understand --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Naturally.

19 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has taken note of

21 the dates, the 27th of April or the 12th of May.

22 Mr. Bourgon.

23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We were

24 informed of these two dates yesterday. These two dates suit us. But I'd

25 like to inform you that we would like to cross-examine this witness for a

Page 5698

1 period that should probably be about 50 per cent more than the period

2 used up by the Prosecution. According to the figures that we have, the

3 examination-in-chief took about 1 hour and 15 minutes, and we will

4 probably want to examine the witness -- cross-examine the witness for two

5 hours. This should make it possible for the Prosecution to compile its

6 schedule.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's not a

8 problem.

9 The second stage of this hearing was supposed to be held

10 tomorrow, but we can deal with this matter today. This debate will

11 consist of two stages. We have to give numbers to noncontested

12 documents; and secondly, we have to give numbers to documents which will

13 be tendered by the Prosecution pursuant to Rule 92 bis. Naturally there

14 was also the question of contested documents. We said that these

15 documents would be marked for identification, they would be given a

16 temporary number. But given that we don't have copies of these

17 documents, we will give them temporary numbers on Monday, the 19th of

18 April, when we resume with our hearings.

19 It's necessary for us to adjourn for a few minutes so that the

20 registrar can go and collect the documents. The registrar will need 15

21 minutes to deal with this. It is now quarter past 12.00. We will resume

22 at half past 12.00 to deal with this matter. We should be finished very

23 quickly, since we have uncontested documents with provisional numbers.

24 So we have 19 documents pursuant to Rule 92 bis which require numbers.

25 So we will resume at half past 12.00.

Page 5699

1 --- Break taken at 12.17 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

4 The registrar told me that he had some problems with the computer

5 but he'll manage with the means at his disposal to respond to the

6 concerns of the Chamber regarding the admission into evidence of certain

7 documents.

8 As I noted a moment ago, we have two matters to deal with: First

9 of all, the admission of noncontested documents which were listed in an

10 annex that you had, as it was attached to our ruling of the 2nd of April,

11 2004; then we have documents that were marked for identification,

12 beginning with P120 and which go on up until P382.

13 Regarding these documents, Mr. Withopf, that were marked for

14 identification, what do you have to tell us?

15 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, these documents were

16 marked for identification mainly for the reason because Defence for the

17 accused did not contest such documents being admitted into evidence.

18 Accordingly, the Prosecution today requests these documents, as detailed

19 in the annex to Your Honours' 2nd of April decision, to be tendered into

20 evidence, please.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 I now turn to Mr. Bourgon.

23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. During

24 our written submission filed last Monday, we conveyed to the Chamber that

25 we have no objection regarding the admissibility of these documents.

Page 5700

1 However, in those same submissions, Mr. President, we conveyed certain

2 remarks regarding the probative value of those documents. We are of the

3 opinion that if those documents are not supported by other evidence, be

4 it through oral testimony of a witness, another document, or other

5 elements which may be produced by the Prosecution, that in that case the

6 documents as such should be given minimum probative value.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.

8 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honour. To confirm on behalf of

9 Mr. Kubura, there's no objection to any of those documents being

10 admitted and accordingly in our submission those documents can now be

11 admitted as part of the evidence.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's fine.

13 Mr. Registrar, these documents which are listed in an annex

14 beginning with P120 going on up until P382, will you please confirm that

15 their numbers now become final exhibit numbers and when the computer

16 starts working again, you will do what is necessary.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, all the documents listed in annex

18 of the decision of the 2nd of April, 2004 which are not yet admitted are

19 considered to be admitted now.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Now let us address the other item on our agenda, and that is the

22 testimony collected through 92 bis statements. Unless I am mistaken, we

23 have 19 such statements. The witnesses begin with Mr. Baric and the

24 nineteenth on my list is Mr. Vrvilo, according to the alphabetical order.

25 Mr. Withopf.

Page 5701

1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, can we please go into private

2 session, since obviously names of witnesses will be mentioned.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us go into private

4 session, please.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5702












12 Pages 5702 to 5707 redacted, private session














Page 5708

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.59 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day of

7 April, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.