1 Tuesday, 18 May 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, will you please
6 call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Can we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
12 Honours. Good morning, Counsel. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis,
13 Ekkehard Withopf, and Ruth Karper, the case manager.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 And for the Defence?
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.
17 Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina
18 Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Mirna Milanovic,
19 legal assistant. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team.
21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
22 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin
23 Mulalic, legal assistant.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 The Chamber bids good morning to all persons present, the
1 representatives of the Prosecution, of the Defence, the accused, and all
2 the staff of this courtroom.
3 I see that Mr. Withopf would like to take the floor.
4 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, prior to the witness
5 being called in, I wish to provide the Chamber -- I wish to provide Your
6 Honours with some information in respect to the composition of the
7 Prosecution's trial team in future. There are four distinct issues I
8 would like to inform you about.
9 The first one, unfortunately, Mrs. Ruth Karper, our case manager,
10 is leaving the Tribunal. It's her last court day today. And I wish --
11 like to thank her, to thank her for the very good work done. I think from
12 her work not only the Prosecution has benefitted, but also the Defence and
13 the Trial Chamber. I'm only making reference to the variety of lists
14 which have been provided in recent times, and Mrs. Karper certainly played
15 a crucial role in that respect. Mrs. Karper as of tomorrow will be
16 replaced by Mr. Andres Vatter, who will share responsibility for a limited
17 period of time with Mr. Hasan Younis.
18 The second change concerns Mr. Chester Stamp. You may have
19 noticed that he since a number of days hasn't appeared in court any more.
20 He has been reassigned to a different team. There will be a replacement
21 in some future.
22 The third issue: I will leave the Tribunal by end of May in
23 order to join the International Criminal Court. What implies, that today
24 is my last appearance before this Honourable Trial Chamber. I would
25 appreciate if at the very end of the today's session I would be given the
1 opportunity to say a few words. It won't take long, maybe four to five
3 In connection with this change, I wish to inform the Trial
4 Chamber that as of 31st of May, Mr. Daryl Mundis will be assigned
5 responsibility and he will lead the Prosecution's team, the Prosecution's
6 team as the lead Prosecution counsel.
7 Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf, for
9 telling us about the changes in the Prosecution team. For a moment I
10 thought you were going to announce the departure of Mr. Mundis as well.
11 But fortunately he's staying. So we take note of these multiple
12 departures. Of course, I will give you the floor at the end of the
13 hearing today for you to be able to tell the Court a few last words
14 regarding your activities.
15 We also regret that Mrs. Karper is leaving, but you tell us that
16 she will soon be replaced by Mr. Vatter.
17 Today we need to continue the hearing of the witness, who will be
18 brought into the courtroom by Mr. Usher, who will be kind enough to go and
19 fetch him.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel. Are you
22 hearing me?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The cross-examination will
25 continue, so first of all, I shall give the floor to Madam Residovic,
1 granting her ten minutes and not more. After that, I shall give the floor
2 to the other Defence team.
3 In future, to avoid the extension of time, when the
4 examination-in-chief is over, the senior legal officer of the Chamber will
5 tell me exactly the amount of time taken by the Prosecution for their
6 questions. We will then allot 50 per cent time more than that for the
7 Defence. And during the cross-examination, if the Chamber feels that that
8 limit has been -- has expired, we will stop the examination. So from now
9 on the time will be strictly respected so that we can avoid the situation
10 when we have to keep the witness for an additional day, though a maximum
11 of an hour and a half had been envisaged for the cross-examination.
12 So I give you ten minutes, and then we will move on to the next
13 team. At 9.25, I will be stopping you. So you have the floor.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 WITNESS: BRYAN WATTERS [Resumed]
16 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel Watters.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. Proceeding from your testimony yesterday, as well as the
20 testimony you gave in the Blaskic, Kordic, and Kupreskic cases, and taking
21 into consideration everything you told us about your personal knowledge of
22 the situation during your tour of duty in Central Bosnia, I would like to
23 ask you the following: Would you agree with me that it is impossible for
24 you to confirm in absolute terms that the foreign fighters, the so-called
25 Mujahedin, whom you never saw yourself, were during your time spent in
1 Bosnia under the command and control of the 3rd Corps?
2 A. First of all, I do believe I did see those that may have been
3 Mujahedin in the way that they supported -- purported themselves wearing
4 green headbands and waving green flags and the fact that they opened fire
5 on me and it was not usual for the ABiH to open fire on UN personnel and
6 UN vehicles, and I assume that that group that did open fire on me were
8 As to the second part of your question, I would not -- the
9 soldiers I saw and presumed to be Mujahedin - and it is a presumption, as
10 they were behaving in a way that was not usual for ABiH soldiers to behave
11 towards the United Nations - they were working on the same objectives as
12 the ABiH on the re-taking of the high ground above Busovaca coming from
13 the direction of Zenica near a place I think called Kaonik. I cannot say
14 from my own knowledge that they were under the command of 3rd Corps,
15 although they were working alongside 3rd Corps and appeared to be doing
16 the -- the same military activity as 3rd Corps.
17 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel. Yesterday I asked you a
18 hypothetical question referring to a number of facts which have already
19 been admitted into evidence in this case. As you didn't answer that
20 question fully, allow me to remind you of what I asked you about so as to
21 ask you that question once again.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the basis of the
23 evidence that has already in the file of this case, to speed up the
24 proceedings, I have compiled a list of events that I should like to show
25 the witness and then I will just repeat my question.
1 So could these facts be given to the witness, Your Honours, and
2 the Prosecution.
3 Q. Colonel Watters, to cover these facts quickly, I will read them
4 out once again, and they are copied from the documents. Had you known
5 that on the 13th of June, 1993 the command of the 3rd Corps wrote to the
6 ABiH Supreme Command to inform them of the existence of a group of foreign
7 nationals as well as a group of local Bosnians trained by them, in this
8 letter the command of the 3rd Corps stated that these elements were not
9 part of the army and that they do not wish to join it, that they are
10 conducting their operations outside of the parameters of the law, that
11 this is damaging the reputation of the state and the army, that they are
12 refusing to talk to him and they believe that his duty is to arrange a
13 meeting between them and the Supreme Command.
14 Three days later the commander of the ABiH issued an order to the
15 commander of the 3rd Corps to send these foreign elements to Mount Igman
16 to work with an independent unit subordinated to the Supreme Command and,
17 in the event they refused, to show them no hospitality and possibly disarm
19 That same day, during a telephone conversation between the Chief
20 of Staff, Halilovic, and Hadzihasanovic, he -- the latter complained about
21 this order, saying that a conflict with these foreign nationals would mean
22 opening a third front and he tried that Halilovic send a new order in
23 connection with the second part of the order issued earlier. At the end
24 of August 1993, an order signed by Hadzihasanovic was not implemented
25 because the foreign nationals were not subordinated to the 3rd Corps
2 Early in November, during a meeting with Sir Martin Garrod, the
3 commander of the Royal Marines and at the time head of mission for the
4 ECMM in Zenica, Hadzihasanovic explained that he was trying to solve this
5 problem with the foreigners either by incorporating them in the army of
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina or by sending them back to their countries.
7 In early December, in a letter addressed to the commander of the
8 British Battalion, he stated that the Mujahedin were not under the control
9 of Mehmed Alagic, the new commander of the 3rd Corps.
10 In February 2004 [sic], during a conversation with General Delic,
11 the commander of the ABiH, Abu Haris, leader of the foreign nationals,
12 said that a number of Mujahedins still refused to be under the command of
13 the army, after which they were requested -- they were supposed to leave
14 the country.
15 So I come back to my question yesterday: Colonel, proceeding
16 from these facts as being true --
17 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, this is a pure technical issue, and
18 I'm sure my learned friend can explain it. But I have my doubts whether
19 it was in February 2004. To my knowledge, General Delic was not -- is not
20 the commander of the ABiH any more.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 1994. I'm sorry. I apologise.
22 It's a typing error, and I also read it out incorrectly. In February
24 Q. Colonel -- this is my last question, Mr. President.
25 Colonel, proceeding from these events as being true, would you
1 agree with me that they show that the Mujahedin were not elements that
2 were under the control of the 3rd Corps and that Hadzihasanovic took
3 reasonable and necessary steps to resolve this problem?
4 A. According to this evidence, I believe that to be the case, yes.
5 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I turn now to Mr. Dixon. You
9 have the floor.
10 MR. DIXON: May it please Your Honours.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Dixon:
12 Q. Colonel Watters, I have a few questions on behalf of Mr. Kubura.
13 There has been some discussion about the weight to be attached to
14 the milinfosums. A final question on this issue, and that is if you could
15 confirm that when you testified in the Kordic case in July of 1999, you
16 said - and I will quote from the transcript; I will go through it slowly.
17 There is a copy available if you want it. But to save time, it's probably
18 easier if I read it out - you said: "Don't quote milinfosums as
19 authority. The milinfosums represented what we assessed at the time and
20 often were only the judgement of a sergeant major or a very junior captain
21 on what they had been told on debriefing patrols. They do not necessarily
22 represent the facts or indeed the opinion of BritBat at the time. They
23 were an internal document for internal use. We never expected when we
24 were producing them that they would be held at a criminal tribunal as
25 absolute fact. Some of it is absolute fact; some of it is assessment, and
1 some of that assessment, with hindsight, wasn't necessarily correct."
2 Is that what you said in 1999?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. The issue of to which unit exactly the Mujahedin were attached,
5 would you agree with me was one of great confusion for you in BritBat?
6 A. Yes, that's the case.
7 Q. And this was primarily because you lacked the firsthand
8 information from the ground on this question.
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. You have testified today that you only saw the Mujahedin or what
11 you presumed to be the Mujahedin on one occasion; that was in mid-April,
12 somewhere outside Zenica, when you say you were shot at by that group. Is
13 that right?
14 A. It was just above Kaonik on what we used to describe as the
15 mountain road between the Lasva Valley and Zenica. It was about -- about
16 a kilometre or maybe one and a half kilometres up the road from the -- the
17 junction with the Lasva Valley at Kaonik. It was what I presumed to be
18 the -- sort of the forward -- what I was convinced at the time was the
19 forward extent on the ABiH advance in their counterattack.
20 Q. But when you saw this group, there was no indication to which
21 brigade they belonged or whether they were associated with any particular
22 unit at all.
23 A. As they were shooting at me, I wasn't making very many sort of
24 erudite judgements.
25 Q. I understand.
1 A. As far as I was aware, they were the lead elements of the ABiH
3 Q. But you never saw any insignia in -- in this situation, did you?
4 A. No, I did not.
5 Q. Would you agree with me that your knowledge about the 7th
6 Brigade, which you mentioned in your testimony in chief yesterday - you
7 referred to the 7th Brigade as one of the manoeuvre units - was largely
8 based on secondhand information that you had obtained from the HVO, you
9 mentioned, from the milinfosums, from your colleagues, and so on?
10 A. And also in conversation with members of the ABiH as well.
11 That's correct.
12 We understood that the 7th Brigade didn't particularly wish to be
13 associated with UNPROFOR or be -- or meet us.
14 Q. And for -- for whatever reason, you never, then, had the
15 opportunity to meet with the commanders, including Mr. Kubura, from the
16 7th Brigade; is that right?
17 A. I have no recollection of ever meeting Mr. Kubura.
18 Q. And you had no reason -- and you never did go to their
19 headquarters in Zenica, did you?
20 A. No. In Zenica, I only went to the headquarters of the 3rd Corps.
21 Q. You never witnessed the 7th Brigade involved in any combat
22 operations, did you?
23 A. Personally no. The only operations I was aware of that we were
24 involved directly with what we believed were the 7th Brigade was an
25 incident I described yesterday, where OCA Company, Major Martin Thomas,
1 was confronted by them when they were trying to evict the Croat population
2 from an area in Zenica..
3 Q. Once again, that is secondhand information.
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. You weren't there.
6 A. I was not.
7 Q. You're presuming it was the 7th Brigade, are you not?
8 A. I was going on the understanding of the commander of our "A"
9 Company, that he believed it was. But it is -- it is secondhand
10 information to me. That is correct.
11 Q. And you would agree with me, given that this is something you've
12 said before, that you had to take with a pinch of salt the information
13 that you got from the HVO about what the 7th Brigade were doing and what
14 the activities were?
15 A. It became clear that we had to take with a pinch of salt what
16 everybody told us.
17 Q. Including in respect of what the HVO told you about the
18 7th Brigade.
19 A. Absolutely. And indeed occasionally what the ABiH told us about
20 their activities as well.
21 Q. I wish you to confirm another bit of testimony from the Kordic
22 case regarding the 7th Brigade. I will read it out again, and if you do
23 wish to have a look at it, you can, but in the interests of time, it
24 probably is best if I read it into the transcript.
25 It is when you were cross-examined by Defence counsel for
1 Mr. Kordic, and he asked you whether you were able to develop any reliable
2 information about the 7th Muslim Brigade at the time of your tour of duty
3 in Bosnia. And you said: "We had a wide variety of sources of
4 information on that and many other units. As to the reliability of that
5 information, I should think that was always subject to question, because
6 it largely depended on the source from which we gained the information.
7 We would evaluate the relevant merit of that information. I would
8 probably be sticking my neck out to say that our judgement on these
9 situations was particularly reliable. It was the best we had at the
11 Is that what you said in 1999 about the 7th Brigade?
12 A. I -- I remember saying something like that, yeah.
13 Q. So you would agree with me, then, today that you did not have
14 reliable information on the internal composition and the command structure
15 of the 7th Brigade at the time?
16 A. That's an interesting question. At the time, it was as reliable
17 as we were able to make it and --
18 Q. And looking at it today?
19 A. I would stick by what I said before, and that was that to -- to
20 define "reliable" today would cast much of that, much of our understanding
21 belief in 1993 into doubt, I suspect, as -- as since one has heard many
22 other things from many other sources.
23 Q. You formed a belief at the time - and this is reflected in your
24 statement and yesterday you said it was your impression at the time that
25 the Mujahedin were concentrated in the 7th Brigade - but would you agree
1 with me that in light of the lack of information you had at the time and
2 the doubts about its reliability that it is quite possible that there were
3 elements or bands, as you said yesterday, bands of foreigners not with the
4 7th Brigade in Central Bosnia?
5 A. In Central Bosnia at that time, I think all things were possible,
6 and so I'd concur that what you say was -- was also possible.
7 Q. And it's also therefore quite possible that there were bands of
8 foreigners fighting in areas where the 7th Brigade was not situated and
9 not operating?
10 A. Yes, I would say that's the case. I would pose one question: If
11 you think about the time of year, for example, January/February, when the
12 weather is extremely inhospitable, I'm not sure how independent bands
13 would sustain themselves without being part of a wider infrastructure.
14 And that, again, was our assessment then that the idea of sort of
15 independent people wandering around in minus 10 or minus 20 degrees, they
16 would require some form of infrastructure to sustain them and also to
17 re-supply them with materiel, with ammunition and weapons, and we assumed
18 that all those with a -- a cultural affiliation to either Croat or Muslim
19 were sustained by the relevant military.
20 Q. But you would agree with me that it's quite possible that there
21 were elements that were not associated with the 7th Brigade at the time?
22 A. I --
23 Q. Elements associated elsewhere.
24 A. Quite possible, yes.
25 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel Watters, I have no further
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf.
3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I have just one
4 question and maybe a follow-up question, depending on the answer of the
6 Re-examined by Mr. Withopf:
7 Q. Sir, good morning.
8 A. Good morning, sir.
9 Q. Colonel, you were shown a document by the Defence which is a
10 compilation or some sort of summary of alleged steps Hadzihasanovic has
11 taken between June 1993 and February 1994, obviously after your time in
12 Central Bosnia. I wish to talk about the time you spent in Central
13 Bosnia. And the question is as follows: Did the then-Colonel
14 Hadzihasanovic, as commander of the ABiH 3rd Corps, did he have between
15 February 1993 and May 1993 the military means to fight the Mujahedin,
16 which were, as you informed the Trial Chamber yesterday, not high in
17 numbers, did he have the military means to fight them with the aim to get
18 rid of them?
19 A. I think that is a very difficult question. If you think back
20 yesterday when I talked about the physical component, the moral component,
21 and the conceptual or intellectual component of fighting power, if I use
22 those to analyse the ABiH at that time, I suspect that the then-Colonel
23 Hadzihasanovic had the physical capability, but given the situation and
24 the quite desperate situation facing the ABiH and the Muslim population in
25 Central Bosnia, I think to have moved against, had he wished to - and I
1 would hope he would wish to, but I would not know - had he wished to move
2 against them, I don't believe that for there to be a schism between the
3 Muslim peoples in Central Bosnia at that time, which I'd presume may be
4 the third front that was alluded to yesterday, I think that would have had
5 irrevocable -- would create irrevocable damage to the moral component of
6 his force of the 3rd Corps, and so in -- in purely military practical
7 terms, I think that was probably a great dilemma that would face the
8 commander of the 3rd Corps. Had he wished to move against them, he
9 probably was not able to at that time.
10 Q. Because of the dilemma you were just describing.
11 A. Yes. Because had he moved against them, then he would have
12 created internal divisions within his organisation with sort of Muslims
13 fighting Muslims. It was bad enough in a civil war where the three
14 components of Bosnia - the Serb, Muslim, and Croat - were fighting each
15 other. To have opened another schism for there to be fighting between
16 Muslims, albeit some were foreign fighters, some of them were also Bosnian
17 Muslims, I think at the time would have been militarily ill-advised and
18 the dilemma facing a military commander was in the strict terms of command
19 as directed by the Geneva Convention. He is required to take action
20 against any of his command who are breaking the rules or customs of war,
21 which patently those -- some elements within the ABiH were. And his
22 dilemma in how to deal with that was probably not something he could
23 resolve until the situation had stabilised later in 1993.
24 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
25 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, the Judges only have
2 three very brief questions for you.
3 Questioned by the Court:
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yesterday you said that at a
5 given point in time you had to recover the bodies -- the remains of two
6 British mercenaries who had been killed. Can you confirm this fact?
7 A. Yes, sir. They were -- they were working as medics with the --
8 and the 3rd Corps. And I understood with the 7th Brigade. But that was
9 only hearsay.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this is hearsay. But they
11 were medics who were part of the BH army in your opinion; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, that's correct, sir.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And my second very brief
14 question is: Yesterday when you spoke about the equipment of the BH,
15 about their supplies, you said that there was an air drop of weapons.
16 Could you confirm this?
17 A. Yes. In -- in Tuzla our company was based on an airfield, and
18 regularly at night there would be air drops of supplies to the ABiH in
19 Tuzla. And we had reports that they included the full range of materiel,
20 rations, ammunition.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How can you explain this air
22 drop, since there was a Security Council resolution in October 1992
23 forbidding all planes to fly over Bosnia-Herzegovina, with the exception
24 of humanitarian aircraft or UN mission aircraft? So how is this possible,
25 since there should have been a form of air control? The UN resolution
1 stated that one should ensure that the resolution was respected. So how
2 do you explain the fact that in spite of this resolution there was an air
3 drop of weapons?
4 A. I don't know the answer to that question, sir. Equally we
5 interdicted through Sarajevo ammunition and weapons being smuggled in
6 container lorries and so on. I think there were activities happening at
7 a -- at a much higher level than our own, and -- and these were being
8 enacted without our control.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the last question which
10 arises from a question put to you a minute ago by Mr. Dixon. It concerns
11 the milinfosums. You have testified in another case that in your opinion
12 these daily reports were not to be forwarded outside the battalion. Their
13 purpose was not to be communicated to the outside. We have heard other
14 witnesses testifying, and they said that these reports went to the British
15 Ministry of Defence. They stated the contrary. What would you comment on
17 A. I think I used the term "chain of command," sir, and that would
18 include -- and I think I said "our headquarters in Kiseljak and our chain
19 of command," which would include through our national chain of command
20 down through Split and back to the Ministry of Defence. And they -- they
21 represented our version of reality on that day as best we could.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Does Defence counsel have any other questions, or the
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I let you take the
2 floor, I spent three minutes on asking questions, so you have three
3 minutes and no more. Please go ahead.
4 Further cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, these two mercenaries were killed not
6 far from Konjic; is that correct?
7 A. That is what we understood.
8 Q. Konjic wasn't in the 3rd Corps's area of responsibility.
9 A. They were -- I didn't say they were necessarily in the
10 3rd Corps's area of responsibility. What I said is the rumour that we
11 were told was they had been serving with the 7th Brigade. Whether the
12 7th Brigade at that stage was in the 3rd Corps's area of responsibility or
13 not, I am not aware. I didn't say it was a fact. They were serving with
14 the ABiH and -- and they were murdered by the soldiers that they were
15 serving with. I mean, that is all we knew.
16 Q. Yes, in the area of Konjic. That is what you have just said.
17 Thank you very much.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 THE WITNESS: You said Konjic. I said that is what we believed.
20 I don't know that as fact.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 I don't have any other questions, Mr. President.
23 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, no questions further for us. Thank you.
24 MR. WITHOPF: We have no further questions. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, this concludes your
1 hearing. Unfortunately, as I said yesterday, you were obliged to spend an
2 additional day here. We'd like to thank you for answering the questions
3 put to you by both parties and by the Judges. We wish you a good trip
4 home, and we wish you all the best in the mission you are currently
5 engaged in.
6 I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we call the next witness
10 into the courtroom, the Prosecution told us yesterday that they intended
11 to withdraw certain witnesses from the list, from the initial list. At
12 the time, I said that the Defence would express its position with regard
13 to this matter, and the Trial Chamber would render a decision
15 But before I let the Defence take the floor, I would appreciate
16 it if Mr. Withopf could confirm if it was -- if it was his intention to
17 submit a written motion to the Trial Chamber or will his request only be
18 supported by a memorandum, which is how the Prosecution usually proceeds.
19 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the purpose of the
20 information that was provided yesterday was to inform both the Trial
21 Chamber and Defence counsel at the earliest stage possible about the
22 witnesses the Prosecution will call in future, and the main purpose was
23 obviously to inform Defence counsel in order to enable them to do a proper
24 trial preparation and to not waste their resources for preparation in
25 respect to witnesses which are on the Prosecution's witness list but the
1 Prosecution won't call for the reasons as outlined yesterday. Therefore,
2 there won't be any motion following. It was information being provided to
3 both the Trial Chamber and the Defence.
4 There's one issue, Mr. President, Your Honours, I wish to
5 address. There was a confusion about a name. And if I could please go
6 into private session for this particular issue.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we go into
8 private session, please.
9 [Private session]
12 Pages 7578 to 7584 redacted, private session
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning. Let me check
10 whether you are hearing the translation of my words.
11 THE WITNESS: Loud and clear.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called as a
13 witness by the Prosecution. Before I ask you to read the solemn
14 declaration, I should like you to tell us your first and last name,.
15 THE WITNESS: My name is Peter Hauenstein.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell me your date and
17 place of birth and your nationality.
18 THE WITNESS: 29 January, 1957. I was born in Calgary, Alberta,
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And your nationality is?
21 THE WITNESS: Canadian.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And what is your
23 current position and rank in the Canadian Army?
24 THE WITNESS: I'm a lieutenant colonel, and I'm Chief of Staff
25 41 Brigade in Calgary, Alberta.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, what was your position
2 and rank in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
3 THE WITNESS: I was a major in the Canadian Forces. I was
4 seconded from the CSE into the ECMM at -- at --
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's quite
7 THE WITNESS: Good.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you testified in an
9 international or national court of law previously about the events that
10 took place in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1993?
11 THE WITNESS: No, I have not.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So this is the
13 first time that you are testifying.
14 I'm going to ask you to read the solemn declaration, please,
15 which the usher will give you. Please read it.
16 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
17 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
18 and nothing but the truth.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
20 WITNESS: PETER HAUENSTEIN
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the technical break,
22 which we will have in 15 minutes, let me give you some information
23 regarding the proceedings here, and then I shall give the floor to Madam
24 Benjamin, who will lead the hearing.
25 As I have said, you are a witness of the Prosecution, and first
1 of all you will be asked to answer questions put to you by the
2 Prosecution. At the end of that stage of the proceedings, the Defence
3 counsel for the accused, situated to your left, will have questions for
4 you within the framework of a cross-examination.
5 When that stage is over, the Prosecution may have some additional
6 questions for you.
7 The three Judges, who are seated in front of you, may at any
8 point in time also ask you questions, either to clarify certain answers
9 that you may give or to fill in any gaps that may appear in the view of
10 the Judges.
11 As a rule, the Judges put their questions at the end of the three
12 previous stages; that is, the examination-in-chief, the cross-examination,
13 and the re-examination. Those would be the general guidelines regarding
14 the proceedings.
15 I would like to ask you to answer questions as precisely as
16 possible. As you know, all false testimony is excluded in all the
17 countries of the world, and in this jurisdiction false testimony is
19 There is also a provision that is implemented in many common law
20 and civil law countries, and that is when a witness is testifying he may
21 refuse to answer a question if he feels that that response could be used
22 against him. In this very exceptional case, which normally will not apply
23 to you, the Chamber may compel the witness to answer the question
24 nevertheless, but he would in that case be granted immunity, which is
25 different from certain common law countries where immunity is granted by
1 the prosecutor.
2 So in very general terms that would be the general structure of
3 this hearing. So we have a quarter of an hour left, and I'm going to give
4 the floor now to Madam Benjamin, whom I wish to greet, as she has come
5 back into the courtroom.
6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your Honours.
8 Examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:
9 Q. Good morning, Colonel.
10 Colonel, you indicated to the Trial Chamber your current position
11 and your position when you were posted in Bosnia, but could you for the
12 benefit of the Trial Chamber give us a brief synopsis of your military
13 experience, please, and training.
14 A. I joined the Canadian Forces in 1975 right out of high school.
15 From that point on, I went into the armoured corps of the Canadian Forces.
16 And after completing my basic officer training, ended up as part of an
17 armoured regiment in Calgary. From that point on, I ended up in a variety
18 of positions within that regiment, from troop leader all the way up to
19 squadron commander.
20 I have under my belt at the present time some two United Nations
21 tours and three NATO tours. Recently I've just completed a posting in the
22 southern region of NATO at -- south of Naples and returned last summer to
23 Calgary. I've both trained international and nationally in a number of
24 different disciplines. More specifically within the army of the -- of the
25 Canadian Forces.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 Now, Colonel, could you describe for the Trial Chamber how the
3 teams in the ECMM were conducted and organised and how the missions were
5 A. It was a very unique time in the Canadian Forces at that -- in
6 1993. They were pulling officers from across the Canadian Forces. At
7 that particular time, there were 12 that were brought in to Ottawa. I was
8 in fact serving in Calgary at that time. And from there I was given the
9 mission that I would join the ECMM. It was an interesting situation
10 because here we were as Canada not part of the EC being seconded from and
11 through the CSE as one of the -- the nations of the CSE and that being the
12 monitor. We initially underwent a, if I remember correctly, a two-week
13 training course, a familiarisation course, within Ottawa, and then from
14 there we were deployed from there into Zagreb.
15 Once we arrived in Zagreb, the 12 Canadians were assigned areas
16 of responsibility or missions which we would go off and do. Initially
17 when I arrived, I moved from Zagreb into Bulgaria as a team member of the
18 team in Bulgaria and responsible for monitoring. From there, I was then
19 moved into FYROM, where I undertook probably one of the very first
20 missions of the ECMM into that country.
21 Following that, I ended up moving from FYROM, after I completed
22 some leave, back into Zagreb, and then I was reassigned into -- into
23 Zenica and then from Zenica, down into Gornji Vakuf. Victor 2 was the
24 call sign of that particular organisation of which we were a team of -- of
25 three members at that particular time. And in order to undertake the
1 mission from the end of May till the end of August.
2 Q. Thank you. Could you state for the Trial Chamber the objectives
3 of the mission, please.
4 A. As I understood them, in those days it was one of monitoring, one
5 of establishing the basic situation that was on the ground in those
6 particular days, and to assist where we could anything from humanitarian
7 to -- to the actual military situation on the ground. It was fairly
8 open-ended on our side, as compared to UNPROFOR, which we were under a
9 more restricted guideline.
10 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
11 Could you give us the exact date that you took up your position
12 in Bosnia, please.
13 A. In Bosnia, I had just returned from leave, and I think it was on
14 or about the 29th of May, 1993.
15 Q. And could you state for the Trial Chamber what was the situation
16 on the ground in Bosnia upon your arrival.
17 A. It was much different than it was in Macedonia, or FYROM, and
18 Bulgaria. We moved -- it was interesting because we were initially
19 supposed to move down there by helicopter. Due to the situation on the
20 ground, we were then rerouted from Zagreb down along the coast, ferried
21 across on a couple of the islands, and then back into Split. Once we
22 arrived in Split, there was a pregnant pause to allow us to -- to get
23 ourselves orientated and then eventually be picked up by the team out of
25 It took us about -- I believe in the neighbourhood of about eight
1 hours or so to get in. And as we moved in from Split, you could see a --
2 a deterioration of the -- of buildings, of the area, and definitely looked
3 for all intents and purposes that we were heading into a war zone.
4 Q. Colonel, could you list for us the area of your responsibility,
5 please. What consisted of your ...
6 A. Once we arrived in Zenica, we were given, once again, an
7 orientation of the ground and what we were responsible to. I went forward
8 into Zenica with a view that I was then pushed back to Gornji Vakuf.
9 Gornji Vakuf was the centre and to the north was Bugojno and to the south
10 was Prozor. So if you draw a big goose egg around those three
11 communities, that was in essence what my responsibility was.
12 Q. Did there come a time soon after your arrival that the
13 situation began to change in Bugojno?
14 A. Change from what? The interesting situation at that time for me
15 was the fact that we'd walked right -- it appeared that we'd walked kind
16 of right in the middle of things. I began to realise very quickly as a
17 result of briefings and -- and my partner at the time that we had three
18 distinct situations within that area: And I'm talking Bugojno was under
19 one sort of a situation; Gornji Vakuf another; and Prozor yet -- yet a
20 third. And if you are asking me specifically about one -- one of those
21 three communities, I tell you that each one was different.
22 Q. And the question is: Could you describe them for us, please,
23 briefly. What was the situation in Bugojno? What was it in Gornji Vakuf?
24 And what was it in Prozor?
25 A. Okay. Down -- I'll start from south and go -- going north.
1 First of all was Prozor. Prozor was Croat-occupied at the time.
2 There were some Muslims in that location. It was definitely controlled by
3 the Croats. As we moved further north and through the Makljen checkpoint
4 and moving to Gornji Vakuf, there was actually a front line in Gornji
5 Vakuf which was clearly defined by the east-west routes downtown of Gornji
6 Vakuf, the major community there. There is an appearance that the Croats
7 were in the northern half of that town and the Muslims were in the
8 southern half.
9 It was -- Gornji Vakuf was definitely a -- an affected area, and
10 I'm talk specifically about the conditions of buildings and -- and there
11 were actually defensive positions within the town that were occupied by
12 both sides. However, when we initially arrived, there was no fighting
13 between the two sides in Gornji Vakuf. However, there had been major
14 battles in that area, no doubt in my mind because of the conditions of the
15 buildings. Everything was shot out and the -- the line between the two --
16 the two opposing sides were well defended with a number of sandbags, logs,
17 that sort of stuff like that.
18 As you went further north, there was a -- an appearance of a calm
19 that existed. When we went into Prozor -- correction, into Gornji Vakuf
20 and up into Bugojno, there was a -- it was not as damaged. There appeared
21 to be damage on the side of -- of the road, the major road that connected
22 the two -- the two communities, but it appeared - and I use an English
23 expression - "the eye of the storm." There -- people looked like they
24 were getting along. There was not much damage to the infrastructure of
25 the town itself and the town was relatively in good order at that -- in
1 those days.
2 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Could you describe for the Trial Chamber
3 what would have been your normal daily routine on your assignment. What
4 did it consist of?
5 A. I'll start in fact from the -- from normally the night before,
6 and that consisted of actually reporting the day's activities to our
7 higher headquarters, which was Zenica, and then from -- as well as all
8 those surrounding teams around us. And I'm talking in -- up in -- or down
9 in Mostar, Tomislavgrad, and the one up to the north. I'm trying to
10 remember the community. It's escaped me. But anyways, basically a
11 shotgun blast to everybody around our area of what had happened.
12 Then we would plan the next day's activities based on our
13 relationship with UNPROFOR in that -- in that location, which was a
14 company of -- of infantry which were equipped with Warrior vehicles,
15 understanding their major responsibility in those days of UNPROFOR was
16 basically to keep the roads open and bringing in supplies straight into --
17 into Sarajevo, which is slightly different than what we were up against.
18 So the night before we would plan all the next day's activities.
19 So with that in mind, the next day we would start off, and we
20 would commence our activities by basically visiting one of the three major
21 communities. We would try to at least hit two of them in any given day,
22 but depending on what meetings we had ongoing or meetings we had arranged
23 at different levels, we would orientate our day accordingly.
24 Initially we would be going and moving throughout the area under
25 our own control. We were equipped with a vehicle, Land Rover with no
1 particular protection device on it or elements on it. As time progressed,
2 that changed, of course. But most of that time was just spent interacting
3 with the local community and trying to determine what was basically up
4 with every community.
5 Q. Well, that was going to be my very next question. I was about to
6 ask you how did you obtain the information for your reports. What did you
7 do? Who did you speak to?
8 A. That was kind of a combination of -- I believe the complete
9 chain, if you would call it that. It was everything from how we observed
10 things on the ground personally between myself and my partner and -- what
11 we had gathered or talked with -- with UNPROFOR who were in the location
12 with us. Obviously we could not be the eyes and the ears everywhere, but
13 we -- and we were only one team in that location and that responsibility
14 of those three communities.
15 So it was for all intents and purposes a variety of -- of
16 sources, everything from the soldier manning the checkpoint on the ground
17 and interaction with that particular individual to the civilian
18 authorities in all three areas, to the military commanders in the three
19 areas, and basically anybody we could get -- get to.
20 Q. And would this include civilians themselves?
21 A. Absolutely. And included members of the church, both Muslim and
23 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I think this ...
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is 10.30. We will have a
25 break of 25 minutes and we will resume at five to 11.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Benjamin, you may take the
5 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Colonel, before the break, we basically did a general overview of
7 what takes place or what took place in your tenure. Now could we go into
8 specific areas, specific periods as to what transpired.
9 I wish to start with -- from the very beginning. Probably the
10 first two weeks in June or thereabouts. Could you tell us what transpired
11 in your meetings and anything of significance, please.
12 A. What struck me when I first entered the AOR or the area of
13 operation that I was responsible for was, as I stated earlier, the
14 differences between the three communities in which we were responsible
15 for. There were three distinct situations that were ongoing. Each
16 appeared from our level to be autonomous organisations or ongoing
17 situations, realising that the distance between the communities was
18 somewhere in the neighbourhood of 35 kilometres between Bugojno and
19 Gornji Vakuf and then an additional 35 from Gornji Vakuf down to Prozor.
20 Because of the lay of the land, there was a distinct valley which flowed
21 from the north down through to the south and then to the area of Prozor,
22 which was in a very deep portion of the valley. Once again, it was -- I
23 was struck by this whole -- beside the lay of the land, this whole
24 different situation which was in the three communities.
25 Q. Okay. Would you be able to assist the Trial Chamber as to whom
1 did you meet with? Do you -- could you tell us the -- the different
2 representatives of the different organisations, please.
3 A. It depended where we -- where we were. It varied from each
4 community. I suspect that the area that you want to concentrate on is in
5 the area of Bugojno. And initially, our -- my contacts there were at
6 the -- for all intents and purposes, at the civilian governmental level
7 in Bugojno.
8 When I arrived, it appeared that everything was in order.
9 Discussions were ongoing between all the local hierarchy on things like
10 determining how to get stable electricity. I believe there was a water
11 pump situation in the town at the time when I first arrived. They were
12 talking about getting parts from outside of Bugojno. There was the
13 situation and discussion about resettlement of those that had left the
14 area before. And even to our surprise in Bugojno there was a discovery of
15 a Serb -- a small Serb community, which was a surprise to us.
16 Q. And that would have been the gist of the initial meetings.
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. As time passed and you would have started your investigations,
19 let us move basically towards the end of June, around the 18th of June or
20 thereabouts. Did you meet with representatives of the different military
21 units? And could you give us their names, you know, who was in charge and
22 who you met with and basically what transpired during that period.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like to object
24 to this question. The witness mentioned their observations, their
25 information, and their meetings. My learned colleague is referring to
1 certain investigations. As far as I can see, the witness has never
2 mentioned any investigations.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Benjamin.
4 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, if I may, I think it might be
5 a matter of interpretation. I think the witness may have alluded to the
6 fact that part of his role as observations, speaking to people, getting
7 informed, and that is what I referred to when I asked him in the process
8 of carrying out his investigations. Maybe -- maybe my friend would prefer
9 if I ask him in the process of what he spoke about. But maybe I can
10 phrase it differently.
11 Q. Colonel, in your daily meetings, could you indicate with us who
12 you met with, the individual personnel, and what transpired at the meeting
13 and what were the discussions. And you originally -- you first told us of
14 the first set of meetings when you first got in with respect to
15 discussions on the water situation and so. Did the meetings have any
16 other discussions? And could we start now from around the end of June or
18 A. Okay. I'll just backtrack a little bit on -- on the initial
19 meetings. There was a joint organisation or committee that was in fact
20 chaired by a gentleman by the name of Pierre Thebault, who was the ECMM
21 representative and head out of Zenica. And he actually came down to our
22 area. Once again, I was actually new to the area. And he actually
23 chaired this meeting between the military representatives of Bugojno. And
24 in those meetings, we in fact discussed, as I've already stated, it was
25 general running of -- of the town and how -- how the situation was in
1 general. Both sides were very cordial to one another in those meetings,
2 so much so that it was -- these meetings were held in each of the other's
3 headquarters in which they were then brought together, and the side that
4 was hosting the meeting was in fact providing lunch and it was an open
5 part of that.
6 Q. Okay. Maybe I need to make myself a little clearer. Colonel,
7 you said both sides were cordial in the meeting. Could you tell us who
8 was a representative and of which sides and whom are you speaking of.
9 A. I'm referring to the -- the Croat and the Muslim hierarchy,
10 military commanders in Bugojno. Names specifically of them are vague at
11 this particular time, unless I would refer to -- to notes. The one that
12 jumps to my mind is -- I believe -- no, I'd only be guessing, and to go
13 after these names, unless you started mentioning to me who they were.
14 Q. Okay. Suffice it to say that you met with the commanders of the
15 different armies.
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. Let us move --
18 A. Not of the armies. Of the operational zones in which they were
19 responsible for. And I suspected in my area it was up to divisional
21 Q. And you cannot recall the names.
22 A. I'd be searching right now.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you.
24 Let us -- did there come a time when relations in Bugojno,
25 Gornji Vakuf -- did there come a time when things began to get tense? Did
1 there come a time?
2 A. To me -- once again, it was the eye of the storm in those days
3 when I initially had arrived. There was always discussions ongoing about
4 areas outside of -- out of Bugojno, and particularly in the area of
5 Gornji Vakuf, of which there were problems.
6 Q. Okay. So could you tell us what type of problems there were and
7 what did the discussions centre around and what you saw.
8 A. In Bugojno or Gornji Vakuf?
9 Q. Let's start with Gornji Vakuf.
10 A. Okay. In Gornji Vakuf, there -- there was always a friction
11 between the Muslims and -- and the Croats, in that location. It -- when
12 we did bring both sides together, they were brought together on neutral
13 ground, being that the UNPROFOR company headquarters in the warehouse at
14 Gornji Vakuf. Rarely were -- did we in fact take one side to the other.
15 Excuse me.
16 The -- the impression I got in most of those meetings -- and by
17 the way, there appeared to be no civilian hierarchy in that location. It
18 was meeting with the military commanders all the time.
19 The situation in Gornji Vakuf was tense. Discussions were always
20 around trucks disappearing, people being hijacked, information about a
21 list of people who had gone missing in the area and general shooting
22 incidents during the night, that sort of stuff like that.
23 Q. You personally while in the field, what did you observe about the
24 area of Gornji Vakuf, the physical conditions in Gornji Vakuf? What did
25 you observe?
1 A. To put it in the simplest terms, Gornji Vakuf was a war zone.
2 Almost every building in that town was damaged in one form or another.
3 There was, as I had stated earlier, distinctive defensive positions inside
4 that town. And even when I had arrived, it was relatively calm but there
5 was -- people were very cautious. There were -- a majority of the people
6 walking around inside that town were -- were wearing a uniform of one
7 shape or form or another.
8 Q. At the end of June and towards the middle of July you were on
9 leave from your AOR; is that correct?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Okay. Could you tell the Trial Chamber when you returned to your
13 A. The exact date? Is that what you're looking for?
14 Q. Approximately. Beginning, mid, end, and of what month.
15 A. It was -- it was July. I think it was mid-July, if I'm not
16 mistaken. And I returned after going home for a couple of weeks' leave.
17 And when I arrived back, the situation in the north had completely
19 Q. Could you relate to us what were your observations on your return
20 to your AOR.
21 A. The day I arrived back, my partner informed me that the situation
22 in Bugojno had deteriorated. I was -- I was somewhat upset because here
23 I'd gone away on leave and I come back and found out that the eye of the
24 storm had completely fallen apart. I -- after conferring with my partner,
25 we then headed north to try and figure out what exactly had happened. My
1 partner explained to me -- and it was a new partner, by the way, because
2 when I had gone away, my previous partner was about to leave the mission,
3 and so in fact when I did return I had a new partner and he -- and he'd
5 This new partner and I, with relatively the same backgrounds, he
6 explained to me how literally that things had deteriorated in Bugojno to
7 the point where there was actually fighting ongoing inside the town
8 itself. We proceeded north, and what struck me particularly about going
9 north is how it had literally turned into a war zone as well. From the
10 aspect that -- that buildings were on fire and people were -- were moving
11 in directions. I presumed at that time Muslims were moving north and
12 Croats were moving south.
13 Q. How did the inhabitants of the villages appear to you?
14 A. The inhabitants appeared somewhat frightened. I remember
15 particularly several groups of people approaching us and asking us what --
16 what was going on and what -- what had happened.
17 As we went into the town of -- of Bugojno, it was an eerie silence
18 at that time, and we were in fact moving to a place, if I remember
19 correctly, called the Kalin Hotel, which was a casualty collection point
20 for the -- for the Croats in Bugojno. My partner had explained to me that
21 there had been a battle centred around that hotel. And even when I was
22 there, you could see the -- the extreme damage that had been done to that
23 hotel as a result of fighting.
24 Q. What would be the basic ethnic composition of the inhabitants of
25 the villages of your AOR?
1 A. In the north, when we initially started, it was Muslim and Croat
2 with that small majority of -- of Serb. By the time I had returned from
3 leave, in Bugojno it appeared to me that there was little Croat left in
4 Bugojno. The number that we were able to determine was probably, I would
5 suggest, somewhere in the four or 5.000 mark. However, we were also
6 informed and had witnessed that there was some 10.000 that had been moving
7 south from Bugojno down toward Gornji Vakuf. Later on in that week I
8 believe we actually married up with some of those in -- in a town between
9 Gornji Vakuf and Bugojno, of which we went in with a battle bus -- and
10 this battle bus I'll describe as a bus with the capability of carrying
11 some 35 stretchers. The bus was armoured in that it had armoured plating
12 all around it, and it was in fact belonging to the Croats and we managed
13 to get our hands on it, and we moved casualties from both sides back and
14 forth. What was unique about that particular day was the fact that we
15 arrived in -- in the area between Gornji Vakuf and Bugojno and finding
16 that a very large group of Croats - and I'm guesstimating in the thousands
17 anyways - were around this area, and more specifically was our problem
18 of -- and the agreement that we had made was that we were going to
19 evacuate casualties. We took out as many as we could with a view that we
20 were going to be back the next day.
21 We -- when we did come back the next day -- and by -- during all
22 this time there is in fact active fighting going on, and there's lots of
23 artillery -- mortar being fired from the direction of Bugojno down into
24 this area.
25 We managed to extract a couple bus loads of people. But what I'm
1 leading to is the next day we ended up in a situation where we went back
2 for them and they were gone. We believed at that particular time that
3 Croats had in fact gone to the west into the Serb area and then migrated
4 south toward Prozor.
5 Q. Thank you, Colonel. As a result of -- of what you would have
6 seen on your return on the 24th and 25th, thereabouts, did you schedule a
7 meeting with any of the parties?
8 A. We tried to get into the operational zone commander. In those
9 days -- and for the life of me, I'm sorry, I can just cannot remember the
10 exact timing, the exact day. But there was a series of meetings and it
11 was a mixture of everybody meeting from the operational zone commander to
12 his Chief of Staff to the brigade commander of the day of trying to
13 determine what had happened up in Bugojno. There were all sorts of
14 allegations during those days of who was doing what to whom.
15 Q. Okay. During this particular meeting, was anything revealed to
16 you with respect to where the -- the inhabitants may be and -- and the
17 casualties and things like that?
18 A. What I can remember of the time frame, there was a basic -- they
19 revealed that the Croats -- a lot of the Croats had left town. It was
20 revealed that strangely enough as this battle was going on there was still
21 a strong indication that they wanted not to fight and they in fact wanted
22 to live together, even at this critical time, when it appeared that the
23 Croats had been taken out of town or pushed out of town to the south.
24 Through these meetings, we also established that there were in fact men
25 being held in some sort of facility.
1 Q. And did you eventually find out where these -- where this
2 facility was and if in fact there was more than one, and did you pay a
3 visit -- did you pay any visits?
4 A. Initially -- initially there was -- it was indicated to us that
5 there was some three facilities. We had an opportunity to visit three of
6 them over, I think, a two-day period, and we gathered as much information
7 as we could on that situation.
8 Q. Okay. So you had the opportunity to visit three facilities.
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. And could you tell us who was in charge of these facilities?
11 A. There was an appearance initially that the facilities were in
12 charge of the local -- I'm going to say police organisation. As we went
13 through the -- the following days and weeks, I think it became established
14 that there was some sort of move taking place between the local
15 authorities and being passed over to the military authorities and the
16 consolidation of the prisoners of war.
17 Q. And which military authority would you be referring to?
18 A. I am referring to the -- the BiH.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, could you give us the names of the facilities
20 that you visited?
21 A. I'm sorry, the actual Serbo-Croat names are -- are unfamiliar to
22 me, but I'll refer to them as the way we tended to do, and that was --
23 Q. Sure.
24 A. One was a gym or elementary school. Another one was a -- a
25 furniture salon or discotheque. I wasn't quite sure what it actually
1 undertook. And the third one was a soccer stadium. In fact, the same
2 soccer stadium the day I arrived in -- in Bugojno we actually witnessed a
3 soccer game between the Brits and the HVO.
4 Q. Okay. So could we do them individually now. Could we start with
5 the gym, please. Could you describe the conditions, what you had seen at
6 the gym, if you had spoken to anybody, what you heard, and what you
7 discovered from your visit.
8 A. We were escorted -- first of all, like I stated, we -- it was
9 divulged to us that they were holding prisoners. We were escorted by the
10 local police to that facility. What struck me was -- was in kind of the
11 middle of town there was one entrance, at the front end. There was --
12 beside the military police, there was my partner, my interpreter, and
13 myself who were actually allowed to enter the facility. What struck me
14 was, if I remember correctly, a narrow corridor which then led to an open
15 courtyard and then the courtyard then led into the gymnasium in the back.
16 The prisoners, as I'll refer to them, were scattered throughout the
17 facility. Most were sitting, smoking cigarettes, and basically in -- in
18 small groups of three or four. It appeared that they were healthy and
19 well treated from the perspective of I assumed that they were recent
20 captives -- recently captured.
21 We attempted -- without any restriction, we were allowed to talk
22 to these individuals. I remember working through my interpreter and
23 basically, you know, asking how things were and was there anything that
24 they -- you know, that they required. The response I got from them
25 was, "No, no." They were more concerned about their families and what was
1 happening with them and were generally just trying to find out general
2 sort of conditions on the outside.
3 Upon entering that facility, I remember distinctly the -- the
4 large amount of women and children on the outside of that building, and it
5 appears most had hampers of some sort in order to try to bring in. I
6 wasn't really paying attention as to whether they were restricted or not,
7 but were consistently -- you know, there were people kind of rotating
8 through and trying to visit people inside that facility.
9 Q. What about the physical conditions at the facility? What did it
10 look like?
11 A. It was an older building, obviously from probably the eighteenth
12 century, I would suspect, if I remember correctly. There appeared to be
13 sufficient toilet facilities, that sort of stuff like that. Most of the
14 prisoners that I did observe were on some sort of blankets. And -- yeah,
15 and there appeared to be enough room for the amount of detainees that were
16 in that location.
17 Q. Approximately how many prisoners would you say?
18 A. From what I can remember -- I'm guesstimating somewhere between
19 100, 150, somewhere in there.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you -- were you able to observe the ethnic
21 background of the guards at the facility?
22 A. Yeah. There was no doubt in my mind that they were -- they were
24 Q. And the next facility would have been the furniture salon. Could
25 you tell us of your visit to the furniture salon.
1 A. I was -- I was puzzled by why the prisoners were kind of spread
2 out like this. I can remember asking that specific question. They said
3 basically they did not have a facility to hold all of the -- the
4 prisoners, so that's why they tended to be in these -- the three locations
6 So the next facility we did go up to was -- it was a building in
7 the middle of an open area, flat top, white in colour, and two storeys.
8 And what I mean by that, there was an upper storey, an upper level, and
9 then there was an lower level. And you entered kind of a flight of
10 stairs, about four or five steps to go up into the upside, or the upper
11 level, and then another four or five to go down underneath to the basement
13 When we entered there, we were initially shuffled into the upper
14 level. What struck me about the upper level was nobody was in there
15 except a bunch of the guards around a small table actually drinking
16 coffee, having a cigarette, things like that. The rest of the
17 furniture -- it was empty. There was nothing else in this facility, and
18 it was kind of all glass all the way around, if I remember correctly.
19 I asked where the prisoners were, and they said, "Well, they're
20 downstairs." And at that point in time I was allowed to go downstairs and
21 visit them.
22 Q. Could you tell the Court what you observed when you went
24 A. The conditions in that facility were much different than the
25 elementary school. It was completely black down in the basement. There
1 was no floor that I can remember. In fact, there were puddles of water
2 throughout the whole facility. There appeared to be small alcoves as you
3 walked kind of in a U underneath the ground, and each of these alcoves
4 were occupied by groups of men who were on the ground and equipped with
5 blankets, a few blankets.
6 I remember the -- specifically the heat and the stuffiness. There
7 was no ventilation in the area whatsoever. There was only one entrance
8 and one exit from that location. It was guarded at the front end by three
9 or four BiH soldiers.
10 We attempted to segregate ourselves from our -- our escorts, and
11 I -- I used my interpreter to try to find out what was going on. They
12 were -- the appearance I got was they were -- they were very scared.
13 There was consistent darting of the eyes back and forth between myself, my
14 interpreter, and the guards over our shoulders. I basically asked
15 questions, you know, "How are things going? How's the family? Do you
16 know where you're going?" And it was very -- yes and no answers I was
17 getting from them.
18 There was -- and I can't remember who divulged this information,
19 whether I got it from one of the prisoners or -- I actually asked one of
20 the guards, and I said, "You know, have you had any problems?" And I
21 remember specifically them telling me about a prisoner who had tried to
22 escape the night before that they had shot. Otherwise, they'd had no
23 problems inside that headquarters -- or sorry, that -- that particular
25 Q. What about the detainees? Would you be able to assist us with
1 how many -- approximately how many people were held in this basement?
2 A. Yeah. I -- once again, I think it's in the neighbourhood of --
3 of maybe no more than 100 or so. But it was -- what struck me was how
4 crowded it was underneath and specifically how small this facility was.
5 Q. And did you get an opportunity to speak to any of the detainees?
6 A. Yes, we did.
7 Q. Could you tell us some of ...
8 A. Well, as I explained earlier, it was a very reluctant -- first of
9 all, to establish who we were, why we were there, and this impression I
10 got that they were in fear because of what they were telling us. I can't
11 tell you specifically that they -- they, you know, passed me any
12 particular information, but it was just the impression I was getting at
13 the time.
14 Q. And the furniture salon, the next -- the next detention centre
15 would have been the elementary school, as you indicated?
16 A. No. It would have been moved from --
17 Q. The stadium.
18 A. From that over to the stadium, yes.
19 Q. Could you tell us --
20 A. Now, this was the local soccer stadium of the -- of Bugojno.
21 Underneath the seating of the -- I want to say the north side of the
22 stadium was a set of rooms underneath the -- the seats. These rooms were
23 interconnected by a corridor of which at one end, at the far end, was, I
24 believe, the washroom facilities, but on the left-hand side, as you looked
25 at it, it was the one entrance. And what I suspect was being used as a
1 sports facility, in fact, it would have been team rooms that were
2 underneath the -- the seating.
3 We -- once again, one entrance, and many guards around the
4 outside. Each of these rooms contained, I would suspect, probably around
5 15 to 20 people. What struck me also about this place is how stuffy it
6 was. There was no circulation of any air. There was some windows up on
7 the top, if I remember correctly, but it was extremely hot and warm inside
8 that facility.
9 I made special note of it and even asked the guard commander. I
10 said, "How often do you let out your people?" And they said about twice a
11 day. And they in fact allowed them to go onto the sports field and in
12 fact keep them contained on the sports field, and then from there they
13 move them back into the -- into the enclosed area underneath the stadium.
14 Q. What is your overall opinion with respect to the conditions of
15 the three facilities? Would you say that it complied with the
16 requirements under the Geneva Conventions? Were they facilities that were
17 good for holding people, detention centres?
18 A. If you ask me to put them in a -- a best-to-worst facility, the
19 best was the elementary school, followed by the sports stadium, followed
20 by the furniture salon. I accepted that these individuals had been
21 recently captured and that there was a move afoot to move them to a
22 consolidated facility which would be able to house this number and take
23 care of this number. Realising that these individuals had been captured
24 probably over a one-week period and therefore was -- as I stated, I
25 accepted that it was a temporary facility.
1 I was -- I made special note of bringing up the point that I felt
2 in my professional opinion that the facility at the salon was the one that
3 had to be dealt with fairly quickly.
4 Q. Did you meet with any of the religious clergy at this point in
6 A. Because of the deterioration of the situation, it was -- we were
7 very quickly cut off from the hierarchy of the military of both sides and
8 understandably so. A battle is on. The commander's responsibility is in
9 a lot of different areas than worrying about ECMM monitors. My partner
10 and I, we came up with a plan to -- if we couldn't get at the military
11 commanders, then we'd try something unique and we'd start talking to what
12 we believed at that particular time a -- the one institution that would --
13 we thought would remain intact, and that was that of the -- of the church
14 and the mosque. So in Gornji Vakuf -- sorry, in Prozor and Gornji Vakuf
15 we actually started negotiation and discussions with the local -- the
16 local clergy. Specifically in Bugojno we hooked up with the -- the
17 Catholic church there and a gentleman by the name of Father Janko was the
18 person we dealt with.
19 Q. And in the subsequent days to come, would you have had meetings
20 with Father Janko?
21 A. Many.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Once again, it was a situation where the -- the Croats had become
24 the minority in -- in Bugojno and we were trying to determine how many
25 people were left. The guidance that we gave to Father Janko at the time
1 was to, you know, find out who was left, gather lists of people that were
2 still in the area, find out about food distribution and how they were
3 going to be supported, and -- and more importantly we -- at this point in
4 time we started to hear rumours of atrocities such as rape and killing.
5 Q. Did you have any reason to visit hospitals during your tenure?
6 And could you tell us what you observed and ...
7 A. Once again, it was a situation where we went after the areas
8 where we felt we could do the most good. Besides the hospitals -- sorry,
9 besides the church, we also started an exchange programme of injured
10 between the both sides. Once again, we drew on that battle bus from the
11 HVO which was -- was able to carry up to 35 litters at one time. And we
12 used that bus to arrange exchanges and, more importantly, negotiate
13 exchanges between the two sides. We would recover individuals out of one
14 side, i.e., down in the area of Gornji Vakuf and Prozor. We would move
15 them north. I'm talking we would move Muslims north, drop them off, and
16 we would then pick up Croats and then move them south.
17 In one particular case, we managed to recover -- UNPROFOR managed
18 to find a group of people being held in a Croat area and which they
19 were -- we negotiated that we be able to get them released. We brought
20 them to the -- to the Muslim hospital in Bugojno, at which time we dropped
21 them off. We then found out that there was some Croat soldiers being held
22 upstairs in the hospital. We went and talked to the doctor in charge, if
23 I remember correctly, and to say, "Can we go talk to them?" We were not
24 restricted in any shape or any form.
25 We went upstairs, and if -- I'm saying in the neighbourhood of
1 about 20 soldiers, Croat soldiers are being held under guard in a room in
2 the back. We proceeded to talk to them, and it was a mixture of, in our
3 mind, people who had been injured as a result of battle and others who had
4 been injured as a result of other means. We -- once again, we were
5 peppered with many questions about what was happening, and we -- I managed
6 to put on the table that it was an opportunity for them to leave this area
7 if they wished.
8 Q. Okay. May I interrupt you, Colonel. You said there was some
9 that might have been injured according to battle and by other means.
10 Could you tell us what other means you're referring to, and how did these
11 people look to you physically.
12 A. It was at this point in time that some stories started coming out
13 about the furniture salon. Some of these individuals claimed to have been
14 beaten in that facility, and even to the point where one of the -- where
15 we found out that the individual that may have been shot as a result of
16 trying to escape had not been shot trying to escape but had been beaten to
18 Q. And you say that some of them claimed to have been beaten now.
19 How did they look to you physically? What did they look like?
20 A. That they had been beaten. No doubt. They showed me bruises
21 throughout their body and even to their face of which -- there was no cuts
22 that I can remember, but as though somebody had taken a blunt instrument
23 and had actually struck them or with -- with a closed fist.
24 I'm not a medical doctor, so I can't tell you exactly, you know,
25 what injuries.
1 Q. That will be sufficient. Thank you.
2 You are about to wind now -- you're about to wind down your
3 tenure in your area of responsibility, and your final days would be
4 basically meetings with the clergy and with both sides. Could you tell us
5 what transpired to the end of the tenure and what in fact did you put in
7 A. We tried to -- once again to stabilise the situation. I
8 learned -- had learned very quickly that if the sides were going to fight,
9 they were going to fight, and there was nothing that I as ECMM or UNPROFOR
10 could do anything about. So once again, it was the situation of us trying
11 to interject where we could do -- where we thought was the most good.
12 The things that we got involved in were the exchange of prisoners
13 of war, of the injured, of those we could get our hands on, and
14 continuously trying to meet with the upper echelon in the military. As
15 far as I can remember, in those last weeks we could -- I could not get a
16 meeting with the operational zone commander. I got it with his Chief of
17 Staff, and in fact the location had changed from the normal place we would
18 meet to another location. It was divulged at that particular time -- and
19 once again, we were consistently asking about the prisoners of war and
20 where they were located and how they were housed. It was of such concern
21 to me that I had passed it up through my chain and I was attempting
22 constantly to get the ICRC involved, which is their job, to do this
23 particular organisation.
24 What came to light was that there was a fourth camp someplace. I
25 did not know where that location was. I personally did not get to that
1 camp before things had ended, my tour had ended.
2 There was talk about the -- consistent talk about the
3 consolidation of those four locations into a new location which was
4 somewhere to the north-east, and for the life of me, I'm sorry, I cannot
5 remember the name of the place. And it was some 30, 40 kilometres to the
6 north-east, of which they were planning to build a new facility for -- to
7 house these prisoners of war.
8 Q. Colonel, during your tenure in Bugojno and the other villages
9 which consisted of your AOR, in your opinion which army would you say was
10 the aggressor? Which army had control? Which army played the dominant
11 role in this conflict?
12 A. If -- if you're talking from the north -- and in those days -- it
13 was interesting, because when I first arrived, we had always heard rumours
14 about something not right up north. And remember, Bugojno was -- was a
15 situation where we had what we understood on the ground that the Muslims
16 and Croats had defensive positions up against the Serbs.
17 To the north of that, even further, up into Travnik, during the
18 middle of -- of my tour things began to deteriorate, and it was almost
19 like a wave from the north as time progressed that was kind of rolling
20 down the valley over a one-month period. I had made a -- a military guess
21 that the Muslims were in fact going for the Makljen checkpoint, which is
22 the top of Prozor. The lay of the land allowed that if the Muslims ever
23 got the Makljen checkpoint they would have domination of that complete
24 area, as Prozor was in the valley.
25 But as the battle progressed, down from the north into Bugojno
1 and then further south, there was a counter-reaction by the -- by the
2 Croats, and we could see many resources being moved in from both sides in
3 order to counter that. And what I'm referring to as -- as the Muslims
4 move further down south, then more and more Croats were being brought in
5 from areas such as Tomislavgrad and other places to the south of that to
6 reinforce, as well as up north there was more troops than we had ever seen
7 in Bugojno before. Some of these troops were not of that area.
8 Q. [Microphone not activated] But generally, which would have been
9 the more organised army? Which would have been the -- the one that was
10 totally in control, so to speak, in your estimation?
11 A. In my military -- my professional military opinion, there is no
12 doubt in my mind that the Armija were the better of the armies in that
13 area at that particular time. Once again, an English expression, "the
14 Croats were caught with their pants down."
15 Q. The bulk of the detainees that you had seen and prisoners and
16 injured people, could you tell us what their ethnic origin would have
18 A. In what location?
19 Q. The whole area -- your whole area of responsibility generally.
20 A. Well, it depended where I was.
21 Q. Okay. Do you want to divide it in three?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let's go to Gornji.
24 A. Gornji Vakuf -- oh, boy. The Gornji Vakuf ended up the front of
25 the line, for all intents and purposes. There were soldiers there. There
1 was battles around the -- our area. In fact, where -- where we were
2 permanently quartered. The battles moved around us. The Muslims in fact
3 attacked around our warehouse to take out the headquarters warehouse
4 behind our location in Gornji Vakuf.
5 Q. So they were defeated in Gornji Vakuf.
6 A. They were being defeated.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And my question is: The POWs that you would have dealt with and
10 perhaps the injured civilians, of what ethnic composition basically were
12 A. I think, once again, it depends where I was. I mean, up in
13 Bugojno we saw, you know -- we saw every different nationality that was
14 injured. There was a tendency to group them into -- you know, like I
15 said, as an example, the prisoners of war or the -- the soldiers that we
16 came upon in the hospital had been segregated from the normal population
17 that were injured. And there was -- there was -- it was right across the
18 whole gambit of children, women, and men that were injured.
19 To say that -- you know, to make an identifiable mark what ethnic
20 background, I can't give you that.
21 Q. What about the -- the people who were forced or who left the
22 area? What -- who basically would have left the area, the ethnic
24 A. Yeah. As we were moving -- as the Muslims were moving down to
25 the south, they were forcing Croats to the south and -- to the point where
1 I saw a mass exodus out of Prozor of -- of civilians.
2 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
3 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, this is the
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Benjamin.
6 For the cross-examination, I shall give the floor to the Defence,
7 and I wish to indicate that the Prosecution took 1 hour and a quarter, so
8 the Defence will have 50 per cent more than that, which makes it two
9 hours. Two hours of examination. So it's quite possible that we will
10 have to continue tomorrow.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Colonel Hauenstein. My name is
14 Edina Residovic, and I am representing General Hadzihasanovic.
15 Colonel Hauenstein, is it correct to say that you gave two
16 statements to the OTP of the International Tribunal, on the 9th and 10th
17 of October and on the 28th of November, 2001?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. When you arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina to join the Monitoring
20 Mission of the European Union, you first went to Zenica, where the EEC [as
21 interpreted] mission was headquartered, headed by Ambassador Jean-Pierre
22 Thebault, and he assigned you to team V2 in Gornji Vakuf; is that right?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. You arrived in Gornji Vakuf on the 29th of May escorted by an
25 UNPROFOR unit.
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Upon your arrival in Gornji Vakuf, you immediately noted that
3 there were certain problems, because you witnessed the HVO having captured
4 three vehicles of a humanitarian convoy, that they tried to loot it, and
5 UNPROFOR had to intervene; is that right?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. When you arrived in Gornji Vakuf, you learnt from your colleagues
8 in the mission and from representatives of the British Battalion, which
9 was also stationed in Gornji Vakuf, about the situation in the region
10 about which you didn't have much information previously; is that right?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. As part of your monitoring mission, as you have already stated,
13 you met many leaders from the military and civilian life and other public
14 figures who were important for the population and the community as a
15 whole; is that right?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. You never met with the commander of the 3rd Corps, General
18 Hadzihasanovic, nor did you send any information to him about what you
19 learnt in the course of your mission in Gornji Vakuf; is that right?
20 A. I never met the general; however -- and I would have not been
21 required to report to him.
22 Q. You said that your area of responsibility was the area of Prozor,
23 Gornji Vakuf, and Bugojno. You knew that Prozor was fully under the
24 control of the HVO; Bugojno -- in Bugojno, the HVO and the BH army had
25 quite good relations; whereas, in Gornji Vakuf these two armies were in
1 open conflict. Is that right?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. In your statement given to the OTP, you said that the Army of
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina was a provisional army consisting partly of
5 soldiers and partly of civilians and that - and I am adding this myself;
6 you didn't say this - but you were able to see that this was an army that
7 was in the process of formation. Would that be right?
8 A. I would say that there was a -- degrees of professionalism in
9 that army. And why I make that statement is that I was -- I would suspect
10 that many of the appointments within the -- within Bugojno related to the
11 BiH was a direct result of previous experience in -- in the JNA army. I
12 was extremely struck by the operational zone commander, the divisional
13 commander, by his bearing and his expertise. His subordinates, I got the
14 impression, were not professional soldiers, if I get that correct.
15 Q. Thank you. And that was the reason why you said in your
16 statement that because of the non-professionalism of the soldiers
17 themselves, you observed that the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina did not
18 have the kind of organisation and discipline that you were accustomed to
19 in an army. Is that your position today as well?
20 A. That is a difficult question to answer. Based on -- and I'll
21 throw this in as an example: Soon after I arrived in Gornji Vakuf, I came
22 upon a situation in which there was some Italians that had been taken off
23 the route and had been executed. It was an aid convoy. The situation was
24 that I was handed the survivors of that particular incident by the -- by
25 the Muslims in Bugojno. I was -- I suspected at the time that in fact it
1 was a renegade organisation of the Muslims who had actually committed the
3 If I use that as a -- as a standpoint or a -- an example, then I
4 would suggest that your statement is correct. There appeared to be
5 dysfunction in that overall structure of who was controlling what
6 organisation. However, whenever I dealt with the leadership, it appeared
7 to be very professional and responsive, and every time I walked into the
8 room, there was a military bearing, to the point where courtesies were
9 awarded to a particular higher echelon of -- of the Muslims every time
10 they entered the room. You knew who was in charge. You knew who was
11 responsible for that area.
12 Q. Thank you. I will read out for you now a part of your statement
13 to the Prosecutor. You said: "On the basis of what I have said, it is my
14 opinion that the HVO was better organised, equipped, and structured than
15 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which I could describe as something
16 more than a group of bandits, hooligans."
17 Could you tell me, what is your view today regarding the
18 organisation and equipment of the HVO and the bulk of the army's forces
19 fighting in your area? I'm not talking about the command structure, whom
20 you have described with precision.
21 A. May I ask: The statement that you refer to that I made, where is
22 that from?
23 Q. It's a statement that you gave on the 9th and 10th of October,
24 2001 to the Prosecution. And you gave two statements. One had to do with
25 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the other related to the HVO. I
1 have quoted from the first, the former, dealing with the Army of
3 A. So in the simplest terms, could you please ask one question that
4 I can respond to. You've got about four or five here that -- I'm not sure
5 where you want to go with this.
6 Q. My learned colleague asked you about the strength of the Armija
7 and the HVO, and I am asking you on the basis of your previous testimony
8 and the testimony you have given today whether when you were present the
9 HVO was better equipped, better organised, and whether its attack force
10 was superior to that of the BH army, whether it was superior in military
12 A. The -- I understand where you want to go now.
13 There is a difference between equipment and resources and that of
14 being led professionally. In my opinion, I would say the HVO were better
15 equipped. They appeared to have the tanks. They appeared to have the
16 artillery. They appeared to have new uniforms. To say that they were
17 better led, I'm -- I don't think I can answer that.
18 On the other side, there was an appearance of structure and
19 leadership but not necessarily having all the equipment and the resources
20 to do it. As time progressed, what -- of the battle, what also caught my
21 attention was how different pieces of equipment tended to show up in front
22 of the Armija headquarters every day. Every day we went up there, there
23 was a new piece of equipment that was parked in the front of that
24 headquarters. I would suspect that that was captured equipment from the
1 Q. Thank you. You have clarified the difference between what you
2 previously said and what you have said today before the Trial Chamber.
3 When you said that upon arriving in Bosnia you found out certain
4 things about the situation there, would it be correct to say that you were
5 informed that the conflict between the Armija and the HVO in the area of
6 Prozor had started in October 1992 and continued in January 1993 so that
7 in fact in this area in which the Muslim population accounted for 38
8 per cent of the population, the majority of that population had already
9 been expelled?
10 A. I was well aware of the situation in Prozor when I arrived in --
11 and was briefed fully on this situation that there had been battles, and
12 even in Gornji Vakuf itself, and the reasons why the population bases
13 were -- were as they were.
14 However, in Prozor there still existed Muslim -- a Muslim
15 community. And more importantly an Imam was in place, which we would do
16 constant visits to in order to establish what the situation was in Prozor,
17 and whether there were any particular problems or anything -- anything
18 that we could help out with. There was a community of women and children
19 that were held in Prozor that were Muslim at the time I was there, even to
20 the point where I personally had visited the camp, the area, which was
21 just off the highway on the left-hand side as you went down to Prozor, to
22 check up on them every now and then.
23 I was briefed fully by the Imam in that location of -- of
24 conditions and how they were being treated and on -- and on and on. I was
25 also informed about battles and problems that had transpired in Prozor and
1 that Prozor for all intents and purposes had become a Croat community.
2 Q. Thank you. And one more question: As you said that on a number
3 of occasions you went to Prozor, the remaining Muslim population was
4 placed in three camps controlled and guarded by the HVO. When you visited
5 them, they were very scared. You were provided with information about
6 maltreatment. And soon after your first visit, they were all expelled
7 from Prozor. Is what I have just said correct?
8 A. As many -- we thought all of them had been taken, and that was
9 near the end of my tour. There was actually two sets of people in Prozor.
10 There were the women and the children, and then there were the men that
11 were held up at the school. And the Imam was free in the town. In fact,
12 he was only a block and a half from the military police headquarters.
13 The night -- or the day that they had disappeared -- and I
14 say "disappeared" because we didn't know where they -- where they were
15 moved to. We heard all sorts of rumours where they were moved to, but we
16 had just visited this camp with women and children. We walked into the
17 place, and next day we went back to visit and they were gone.
18 Q. Thank you. To go back to the subject of Gornji Vakuf. You said
19 that when you arrived there it was quite clear that intense fighting had
20 been going on for a long time. This was quite visible when one had a look
21 at all the houses there.
22 A. That was absolutely correct.
23 Q. The conflict line passed through the centre of the town; is that
25 A. As we were able to determine, yes, that is correct.
1 Q. The HVO held elevations above the town and used illegitimate
2 means, because it threw -- it shelled the town with -- with submarine
3 bombs that had been modified; is that correct?
4 A. Known as a Livno bomb, yes.
5 Q. Gornji Vakuf was a very important place and before the war the
6 Bosniaks were in the majority there, and at that time the HVO tried to
7 take control of it, as it was an important point leading in the direction
8 of Herzegovina and Croatia; is that correct?
9 A. I would say if you say so, because I'm not sure of that.
10 Q. In this area, given the importance the HVO gave to taking control
11 of this territory, you could quite frequently see additional HVO forces
12 that weren't from Prozor; they had come from Herzegovina. And you could
13 also see parts -- or other parts of the Croatian army engaged in the area.
14 Is that correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Let's now move on to the subject of Bugojno. And you have
17 already testified about Bugojno in the course of the examination-in-chief.
18 You said that after arriving you had meetings with the HVO and Armija
19 representatives on a number of occasions. But could you also confirm that
20 you had remember meetings with the representatives of the civilian
21 authorities in Bugojno.
22 A. Absolutely. And I'll make a comment here that I was accused
23 on -- on a couple of occasions of not engaging the civilian hierarchy
24 in -- in discussions. And a couple of times I was stopped on the side of
25 the road by the mayor of Bugojno saying that he wanted to engage more with
1 me on -- in discussions, rather than just the military commanders.
2 Q. From the very beginning, after your arrival in Bugojno, you were
3 aware of the fact that in the course of 1992 and in 1993 tens of thousands
4 of refugees expelled from Donji Vakuf and from surrounding villages
5 occupied by the Republika Srpska army arrived in Bugojno. Were you aware
6 of this fact, Colonel?
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. The staff and part of the HVO brigade - in Bugojno, its name was
9 the Eugen Kvaternik Brigade - were located in the Gorica hill, in the
10 so-called Tito's villa, and that hill was the dominant elevation above the
11 town of Bugojno. Is that fact correct?
12 A. Yes, I had visited Tito's lodge on many occasions.
13 Q. You said that the HVO and the BH army, as well as the civilian
14 authorities, continually expressed the desire to find a peaceful solution
15 to certain conflicts, and you said that they wanted to continue living
16 together. Nevertheless, you felt that in the month of July the tension
17 started increasing. Would that be a correct description of what you said?
18 A. Yes, that is correct. I was completely surprised by the -- the
19 turn of events, because on all sides in the town of Bugojno I thought we
20 had full agreement to co-exist as one entity in that town.
21 Q. In June your mission paid particular attention to the protection
22 of humanitarian convoy that consisted of about 500 lorries which advanced
23 in two parts, and the purpose of the convoy was to supply -- provide the
24 town of Tuzla with supplies. This is one of the largest towns in the
25 north-eastern part of Bosnia. Were you particularly engaged in this
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 Q. Would it be correct to say that you were provided with UNPROFOR
4 support in Makljen and you were fully engaged in this matter but the
5 military police took away lorries, having threatened you, they maltreated
6 the drivers, and finally, while the convoy was present in your area of
7 responsibility, 36 lorries with their contents were taken from the convoy?
8 A. Do you wish me to expand upon that?
9 Q. No. I would just like you to tell me whether that is correct or
11 A. The biggest thing about the Tuzla convoy is the fact that we
12 inherited this convoy. It was neither a United Nations or an ECMM
13 responsibility. This thing was locally organised by the Tuzla, the town
14 of Tuzla, pushed out to Split, and then we started getting reports that
15 this convoy was moving in our direction. We inherited it when it arrived
16 in Prozor, and stepping forward into a very delicate situation was
17 UNPROFOR and ourselves trying to do the best we could.
18 Q. In spite of all the efforts that you made, would it be correct to
19 say to say that HVO police in Prozor seized 36 lorries and maltreated the
20 civilians who were with the convoy? You then informed the HVO
21 representatives in Prozor about this fact.
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. You're aware of the fact that after Prozor, in the territory that
24 you controlled, moved to the area of Travnik and Vitez, you know that
25 there was an organised HVO attack on this convoy and a number of people
1 were killed and over 100 vehicles were -- were seized and were never
2 returned? Are you aware of this fact?
3 A. We witnessed it on TV about two hours after the attack.
4 Q. Colonel, this question is being put to you for the sake of my
5 following question: Is it correct to say that such events and such HVO
6 attacks and such an attitude towards the population in Prozor was also one
7 of the reasons for which the misunderstandings and tension in Bugojno
8 itself increased and this was also the subject of discussion at joint
10 A. Because of the particular mission that we were given as the ECMM,
11 we were not out to gather information about military forces. I had an
12 understanding but I did not know specifically in those days the
13 delineation between troops, what corps were involved, and who was doing
14 what to whom, other than what I've described which was Prozor was
15 Croat-controlled, and Gornji Vakuf was joint, and up north was both Croat
16 and Muslim, who eventually became all Muslim.
17 Once again, I was under the understanding that there were three
18 distinct situations in each location, and the other problem was there was
19 an appearance that the boundaries between opposing forces weren't equal.
20 And what I mean by that is the Muslim side to the north didn't necessarily
21 have the same boundaries as those in the south, and a lot of my time was
22 trying to figure out who was up against whom.
23 Q. Towards the end of June, you were able to see that the HVO, in
24 particular in the area of Makljen and Prozor, had started accumulating
25 heavy equipment; five tanks, two rockets, an M-57, a Howitzer, a
1 155-millimetre Howitzer, and they started collecting other heavy weapons
2 which you have described in your daily reports. And this in your opinion
3 was proof that the HVO was preparing a large-scale operation. Would that
4 be correct?
5 A. I'm not sure if it was five tanks. I thought it was three tanks,
6 if I remember correctly. And they were being consolidated in the -- the
7 warehouse in Prozor, plus a number of other high-calibre weapons or
8 large-calibre weapons that were being stored down there. I cannot
9 remember whether that was as the operations from the north progressed
10 south or was before the operations that -- that started and it was in fact
11 a response to what was happening in the north.
12 Q. Thank you. Would it be correct to say that at the time you were
13 already aware of the fact that the HVO and the Republika Srpska army were
14 cooperating and you were convinced of this when some of the HVO forces
15 from Bugojno passed through the Serbian territory? They passed through
16 area together with the population that was withdrawing with the HVO.
17 A. The night they disappeared was the first indication that there
18 had been collaboration between the Serbs and the HVO. I was not aware
19 of -- of that ahead of time. We were surprised the fact that 10.000
20 Croats had moved to the west and then -- and then south into Prozor. It
21 was a shock, because we thought that they were opposing forces at the
23 Q. Thank you. You were on leave in July from the 9th to the 23rd.
24 And as you said, when you returned, the situation had changed completely
25 and dramatically; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Colonel, would it be correct to say that with regard to
3 everything I have already asked you about and you yourself directly
4 observed these events - you also observed events after you had returned
5 from your annual leave - you and your colleagues compiled daily reports on
6 all of these events and you recorded who you had spoken to, what you had
7 spoken about, and you recorded the type of activities you engaged in with
8 regard to these events? Is that correct?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. You were free to draft such reports. You did this on an
11 independent basis. No one pressurised you to include certain facts that
12 you weren't sure of. You weren't -- if you weren't sure that you had
13 actually seen a certain event or heard about it, you wouldn't include it
14 in the report. You were quite free to draft your daily reports.
15 A. The daily reports were a standard format which was used by the
16 ECMM. As a military officer, we tried to place that information in there
17 that was absolutely fact and correct as we had seen it on the ground.
18 We -- inside those reports, we were given the freedom of offering comments
19 into what we thought was up or what we thought the situation was.
20 Otherwise, the stuff that was recorded in there was as we saw it and was
22 Q. In your reports, you described all the meetings that you had with
23 representatives of the military and civilian authorities and included
24 information about the prisoners in Bugojno, as well as about what you had
25 observed, what you had seen when you visited some of the detention
1 facilities. Is that correct?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. After you returned from leave, you went to Bugojno for the first
4 time on the following day, but on that occasion you didn't attend any
5 meetings. You only saw that the town had been badly damaged as a result
6 of the fighting. Is that correct?
7 A. If that's what's written in the report, yes, that is correct.
8 Q. On the following day - and this is what you said in response to a
9 question from my colleague - you were engaged in an operation in order to
10 transfer the wounded from the HVO as well as the wounded from the Armija.
11 These people were located in the Kalin Hotel.
12 A. Are you referring now two days after I returned?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. As I can recollect, that is correct, yes. We went to the Kalin
15 Hotel, and we took out people and then we moved them south. Yes.
16 Q. Colonel, I will now use a number of dates and facts that are
17 included in your reports, and these reports have already been admitted as
18 evidence by the Chamber.
19 Would it be correct to say that on the 27th of July from the
20 civilian authorities and the chief of the civilian police you asked for
21 permission to gain access to detention facilities in Bugojno because you
22 were informed that they had between 300 and 500 HVO members who were held
23 in detention?
24 A. I remember that conversation. If it states so in the report on
25 that date, then yes, that is correct.
1 Q. On the following day, you visited the Gimnazija and the furniture
2 showroom. You noticed -- or you made a note of the situation in which the
3 detainees found themselves and you made a note of the number of detainees
4 there. You included this information in your daily report. Is that
6 A. I believe that is correct, yes.
7 Q. From the very beginning - and this is not included in your
8 report - you noticed that in these facilities they didn't have the basic
9 essentials, they didn't have enough toilet paper, glasses, soap, and
10 civilian authorities in Bugojno informed you of this and asked you to help
11 them ensure that there were such supplies together with the UNHCR, in
12 order to provide better conditions for the detainees themselves. Was that
13 the subject of your discussion?
14 A. I cannot remember specifically whether they offered that or I
15 asked about that information and -- and how that all transpired. All I
16 know is there were stuff that was missing that I had indicated to the --
17 to the authorities, but I'm not quite sure who -- and I cannot remember
18 honestly whether it was brought up by the -- by the police or by myself.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will adjourn
20 now. It's half past 12.00. We'll have a break and we will resume at five
21 to 1.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before giving the floor to the
25 Defence, I said a moment ago that they had two hours. But very precise
1 calculations that we undertook tell us that you have 1 hour 40. You've
2 already used 30 minutes, so in theory you have 70 minutes left. As we
3 we're working to quarter to 2.00, you have 45 minutes left, and if it is
4 not completed, then we will carry it over to tomorrow, when you will have
5 another half an hour.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think I will
7 manage to complete my cross-examination today. Thank you.
8 Q. Colonel, a moment ago we were discussing your visit on the 28th
9 of July to two detention facilities, in the secondary school and in the
10 furniture salon. I would like to check whether I understood you
11 correctly. Is it right that in both facilities it was quite obvious that
12 they were only being temporarily used to house the captives, because there
13 were no suitable facilities for such a large number of prisoners? Is my
14 understanding of the situation correct?
15 A. To begin with, we did not know the total numbers that were
16 involved, other than what had been told to us, in the neighbourhood of
17 about three to 500, somewhere in there. I didn't know what to expect as
18 to whether it was permanent or not permanent. It appeared that the -- the
19 school or the gym was a facility in which they were holding people. I
20 cannot categorically state that this was a temporary facility at that
21 point in time.
22 What I do remember is after going to the salon, the furniture
23 salon, that called in my mind into question whether this was a permanent
24 facility or not. If I can recollect, it's at that point in time that I am
25 asking the question, is this -- is this where they're staying? And it's a
1 combination of seeing all three of them that I -- I'm getting the
2 information that this is not a permanent facility; hence, whether why they
3 were looking for another facility and eventually they were going to move
4 them to the north.
5 Q. You can also confirm that the authorities told you that until
6 they move them to the north, all the prisoners would be housed at the
7 Iskra Stadium and in the elementary school and that as of the 5th of
8 August the furniture salon was actually closed.
9 A. Without referring to the daily reports, I am not sure when that
10 salon was closed, but I do remember that a consolidation effort was being
11 made and somehow -- I don't remember the elementary school, but I do
12 remember them stating that there might be a consolidation into the
13 sportsplex or to the sports field.
14 Q. The same day you visited these two facilities where HVO prisoners
15 were held you learnt that in the basement of Tito's Lodge there were 40
16 imprisoned Muslim civilians and you reported Major -- to Major Binns about
17 this, and you agreed that he should go to Tito's Lodge and that you visit
18 the HVO wounded and try to carry out an exchange. Do you remember these
19 events taking place as I have described them?
20 A. Yes, I do. But they were not in the basement of Tito's Lodge.
21 They were in a building in front of Tito's Lodge, a hotel, if I remember
23 Q. Is it true that Major Binns informed you that he was horrified by
24 what he discovered because there were old people in that basement and
25 several children? Actually, you said 22 elderly men and young boys, 14
1 elderly women, 3 younger ones, and a child, and that they were all
2 mistreated. Do you also remember that Major Binns told you that they were
3 mistreated in the meantime while he left the facility and came back?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. Through joint efforts of the ECMM and UNPROFOR, an exchange was
6 carried out of the 23 wounded for the 40 civilians; is that right?
7 A. That is correct. The other thing I would like to make note, it's
8 Major Binns, B-i-n-n-s, who's the name of the company commander of the
10 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that the HVO, who withdrew from Tito's
11 lodge, which was their last defensive point, and upon withdrawal they set
12 fire to Tito's Lodge?
13 A. That is correct.
14 A clarification: I do not know who set fire to the building.
15 All I know is that once they had left it in fact was burned at night. I'm
16 not sure who lit the match.
17 Q. In answering questions from my learned friend, you said that you
18 met other public figures, particularly Father Janko. Is it true that at
19 the beginning of August you managed to arrange a meeting between Father
20 Janko and representatives of the remaining Croatian population with the
21 head of the civilian police and with the civilian authorities?
22 A. Can you repeat who the meeting was with? Because there was also
23 at a time where Father Janko was moved to -- down to Prozor and we took
24 the Imam from Prozor up to Gornji Vakuf. Is that -- oh, sorry, up to
25 Bugojno. Is that what you're referring to?
1 Q. No. According to your reports, this happened later. But this
2 was at the very beginning. You arranged a meeting attended by Father
3 Janko, the head of the civilian police of Bugojno, representatives of the
4 civilian authorities, and together you discussed the security of the
5 remaining 3.000 Croats left in Bugojno.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it true to say that the civilian authorities and the police
8 expressed their complete readiness for the remaining Croat population to
9 join in the authorities and their readiness to take back all the Croats
10 who had left Bugojno?
11 A. I will offer a personal opinion at this time, basically making
12 the statement after a full-fledged operation had just taken place and for
13 civilian authorities to offer Croats back into the town, I would suggest
14 that that offer would not be seen as a legitimate one. Yes, there was
15 talk about it, and I can remember them once again turning and saying, "No,
16 we want to settle things here. We want to allow people back into the
17 community." But I would -- at that time I had a lot of concern to -- to
18 make the statement, "After all this, you still want the people back. And
19 if I was a -- if I was a Croat, would I want to come back."
20 Q. Is it true that early in August the civilian and other
21 authorities in Bugojno also informed you that all the civilians who were
22 temporarily detained during combat operations had been released, that they
23 had been interviewed, and that it had been established that they had no
24 connection with the combat activities, so that 81 captured civilians had
25 been released home?
1 A. I do remember them making the statement that some people had been
2 released after interviews, yes.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to
4 show the witness a report which was served on the Defence by the
5 Prosecution during the disclosure procedure so that I might go on to my
6 next question.
7 Q. Colonel Hauenstein, was this the report referring to the fact you
8 were informed about during that meeting?
9 A. Is this taken directly from my report on that day?
10 Q. No. This was noted -- it was noted in your report that you were
11 informed about this on the 9th of August, but this is a report we received
12 from the Prosecution and it comes from the competent authorities of
13 Bugojno municipality. My question is merely whether reading this report
14 you can link it to the information you received at the meeting with the
15 civilian authorities.
16 A. Without seeing my report of that day, I'm unable at this time to
17 put the two -- the two together, because I'm not sure when that exact
18 report was done and exactly what date it was done. If it's around that --
19 that time frame and those numbers add up, then probably yes. But to look
20 at one document, I cannot.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document be marked for
23 identification only. The Defence could ask the witness to be shown the
24 report from Exhibit 171, but I believe that what the witness has already
25 told us is sufficient regarding the release of civilians.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Benjamin, regarding the
2 first document.
3 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: [Previous translation continues] ...
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we have the
5 document marked for identification, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH175,
7 marked for identification.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You were also informed, as you have already said, that the Iskra
10 Stadium would be transformed into a prisoner -- prison for prisoners of
11 war and that the prisoners would then be detained in only two facilities,
12 and this is also noted in one of your reports; is that right?
13 A. I cannot recollect that two facilities were going to be used. I
14 remember -- what I remember of -- of the time and of the day was that
15 there were three initial facilities. There was a fourth which we were
16 informed about; we did not know where that was. And then conversation led
17 to that all were going to be moved to a new facility somewhere to the
18 north of Bugojno. I -- I don't remember exactly whether they were being
19 consolidated in the stadium and the school prior to that point. It was a
20 whole bunch of events which led as I was leaving to the point where they
21 were going to all be moved to one location. But it was not the sports
22 field, as I remember.
23 Q. You visited the Iskra Stadium and you can testify that the Iskra
24 Stadium was transformed into a detention facility; is that right?
25 A. If I remember correctly, I only visited that facility once. It
1 may have been transformed later on after I left, but I'm not sure.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown
3 the decision of the War Presidency regarding the formation of a
4 provisional detention facility at the Iskra Stadium.
5 Q. Allow me to remind you. You referred to the need for moving the
6 prisoners somewhere north. If I were to remind you, you will see that in
7 Article 1 it says that: "The prisoners should be moved towards the KP Dom
8 Zenica." Does this jog your memory regarding the conversation you had?
9 A. KP Dom Zenica is -- is unfamiliar to me as I sit here today. It
10 may have been referred to at the time. If that is in the direction that I
11 stated which I thought would -- a consolidation was going to take place to
12 the north-east of Bugojno, so Zenica is probably in the neighbourhood, but
13 I cannot specifically remember that name being used.
14 Q. In connection with this document, let me ask you: Do you know
15 that the civilian authorities were actually concentrated in the War
16 Presidency, and the mayor was precisely the person that you said met you
17 once in the street and criticised you for not involving him more in the
18 discussions you were having in Bugojno? Was that a civilian body?
19 A. If you're asking me did -- I assumed that the War Presidency was
20 a make-up of military and civilian authorities within Bugojno. Initially
21 when I had arrived there, when we ever -- whenever we tended to meet, we
22 met with both military and civilian in the room at the same time.
23 As aggressions continued in Bugojno, there appeared to be a
24 parting between the civilian and the military structure, and hence why I
25 was a little bit caught flat-footed when I was approached by the -- by the
1 individual standing in the street saying, "Do you know who I am?" It
2 appeared that he was somewhat insulted that I had not consulted him in --
3 from the point in time that hostilities had commenced.
4 Q. Would it -- would I be right in saying and describing the
5 situation by saying that the military commander of the Operative Group
6 West and the military commander of the city of Bugojno were mostly
7 concerned with military affairs and defence lines, whereas all other
8 matters in town were decided by the War Presidency, which also concerned
9 itself with security and other things affecting life in the town of
11 A. In the traditional conduct of military operations, I would say
12 that was a correct statement. Of course I was not privy to the overall
13 structure, and I understood that there was a civilian authority and that
14 there was a military authority, and I would expect that the military
15 authorities were more orientated toward the battlefield as compared to the
16 civilian authority would be more worried about the town of Bugojno itself.
17 I'm unfamiliar with the exact connection between the two and how
18 they ran themselves, other than the joint meetings at the beginning which
19 tended, I felt, to have -- each side tended to part, because depending on
20 their responsibilities, their focus was in other areas.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in view of the
23 fact the Defence feels that this is a highly relevant document for this
24 case and the Defence, we would like to suggest that this document be
25 admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit, because there's reference to
1 discussions about the Iskra Stadium. It is true that the witness cannot
2 identify the document, but it refers to what he testified about. But in
3 view of the relevance of the document, we would tender it into evidence.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I turn to the Prosecution now.
5 The Defence is asking for the admission into evidence of this order issued
6 by the War Presidency of the Municipality of Bugojno, which is creating a
7 detention centre at the Iskra Stadium to temporarily hold there civilians
8 and the military and that in communication with the KP Dom in Zenica and
9 the military prison in Travnik, once they are -- can function again, they
10 would be moved there.
11 It is also indicated that the centre would be guarded by six
12 civilians and six soldiers. What is the position of the Prosecution? A
13 document that has a stamp and a signature.
14 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, my friend quite rightly
15 indicated to the Trial Chamber that the witness was not in a position to
16 identify the document, and that is of paramount importance when you want
17 to introduce a document into -- to have the document marked for evidence.
18 And the other reason is that the document before us -- I'm aware
19 of the fact that it has a seal and it appears to be a signature, but our
20 copy - I don't know if it applies to all the other copies - is very, very
21 illegible, especially page 2. The language, it can hardly be seen. And
22 I'm not sure whether that is what is interpreted in the English version.
23 So for those two main reasons, and I think this witness could not
24 in any way shed any light with respect to this document, so I would want
25 to object on those two grounds.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will give it a number and
3 mark it for identification only.
4 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Much obliged.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will be DH176, marked
6 for identification for the B/C/S version; and DH176/E, marked for
7 identification for the English translation.
8 I would like to add that the English translation of the report
9 tendered before gets the exhibit number DH175/E, marked for
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. Colonel, is it true to say that as of mid-August representatives
14 of the Croatian people provided you with a list suspecting that 18 crimes
15 had been committed at the expense of Croats, including rapes, robberies,
16 and murder?
17 A. Who provided this list?
18 Q. Representatives of the Croatian people, as you noted in your
19 report. It could have been Father Janko or someone else representing the
21 A. I cannot remember specifically receiving such information, and
22 the -- the number that you have given to me, 18, is -- is a number that
23 would not stick in my mind. I do know that at -- at the church where
24 Father Janko was there were lists being amalgamated and brought together
25 of perceived criminal acts that had taken place. I as an ECMM monitor was
1 not in the business of confirming whether these were right or wrong or
2 they were accurate. I was in a position to direct or facilitate the
3 gathering of that information, who would eventually be turned over to the
4 UNHCR or ICRC or others or, in fact, for this Court here today.
5 Q. Do you remember a fact that you mentioned in your reports dated
6 the 18th and 19th of August, that what you learnt you passed on to the
7 head of the civilian police, that you requested that he provide you with
8 information and that already the next day the head of the civilian police
9 informed you about the efforts they were making about the fact that two
10 persons had already been taken into custody, that some persons had been
11 taken to court, that some perpetrators are still at liberty, but that --
12 and also that in two cases it wasn't a crime but that the people were --
13 died of natural causes? Do you remember this information that was given
14 to you by the chief of police?
15 A. I remember visiting the chief of police, and I do remember
16 exchanging information. The details that you've just listed to me, I
17 cannot remember specifics about any -- any one -- one event in that list
18 that you've given me. If that is off of a report which I actually wrote,
19 then I would have to state yes. Otherwise, me sitting here today and
20 recollecting a list, I cannot do.
21 Q. My last question is the following: During the numerous
22 conversations that you had with the chief of the civilian police - I could
23 remind you of his name; his name was Senad Dautovic - you were able to see
24 that Dautovic, as the chief of police, was endeavouring to protect the
25 civilian population, to discover the perpetrators, and to take steps
1 against them. To the best of your recollection, is this a correct
2 description of the efforts made to deal with certain problems?
3 A. When I met with the chief of police, I found him to be a -- an
4 honourable man. I remember him specifically because we used to exchange a
5 number of stories over where we were from and -- and basically about our
6 families. Whenever I did meet with him, I remember being well taken care
7 of from the point of view that I was always given a cup of coffee and --
8 and a cigarette.
9 There was always an appearance that he was trying to do the best
10 he could. But because of the situation they were in, that had to be
11 suspect, I believe. For every action of bringing stuff forward that I
12 remember, there was always a counteraction, telling me that yes, okay, we
13 understand what you're trying to bring forward to us but there are --
14 there is another situation here that we need to have taken a look at.
15 The one thing that I remember specifically is a videotape that
16 had been presented to me for me to make comment on, and it had to do with
17 a bunch of soldiers up in the hills digging up some bodies. And it was
18 presented to me as to -- first of all, to make a statement on behalf of
19 the International Community that something had gone wrong here and,
20 secondly, to make a ruling of some sort. Of course, I backed totally out
21 of that and made no comment and said, "Well, it had to be brought up with
22 the appropriate authorities."
23 It appeared there -- there were things in order. But to make a
24 statement that -- that there was something behind it, I can't tell you
25 sitting here today. I remember fondly sitting there discussing issues
1 with the gentleman, but -- but that's as far as I can take it, unless you
2 want any more information other than that.
3 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that completes my
5 cross-examination of this witness.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
8 have no questions for this witness.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Benjamin, do you have any
11 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, there'll be no re-examination.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, I feared that you
13 would have to testify tomorrow too, but thanks to the wisdom of the
14 Defence who put very concise questions to you, we have completed your
15 examination. I would like to thank you for having come here to testify.
16 You have answered questions put to you by both parties. And I wish you a
17 good trip home. And naturally, I wish you all the best for the mission
18 that you are currently engaged in.
19 I would now like to ask the usher to escort you out of the
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The schedule was adhered to.
23 And before I give Mr. Withopf the floor, as far as the schedule for
24 tomorrow is concerned, perhaps Mr. Withopf could tell us something about
25 that, as well as bidding us farewell.
1 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Your Honours.
2 In respect to the schedule for tomorrow, the witness whose name
3 appears on the confidential witness schedule is in town and he can be made
4 available to testify tomorrow.
5 Otherwise, Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm not intending to hold
6 a long speech. However, due to the fact that I'm the last time in court
7 today before this Trial Chamber, I wish to thank.
8 I wish to thank first and foremost my team, not only the team
9 members who appeared before this Tribunal but also and in particular to
10 those team members, both the legal and the investigation team, who are
11 working behind the scenes and quite often under quite adverse
13 I wish also to thank everybody in and around the courtroom who
14 are facilitating our work, such as the usher, the translators, the
15 technicians, the court reporter, and the security personnel. I think
16 their contribution to a smooth running of the proceedings can't be
17 overestimated, and I think we quite often intend to forget the importance
18 of their work.
19 Of course, I wish to thank all the representatives of the
20 registrar, who for obvious reasons have a very important and a crucial
21 role in these proceedings, as do have the Chamber's legal officers
22 obviously, who are for both parties the necessary link to the Trial
23 Chamber. In respect to more practical issues of a more administrative
24 nature, I wish to thank them as well.
25 I wish to thank Defence counsel, all Defence counsel and all
1 assistants to Defence counsel. I think it became apparent -- I think it
2 became very apparent in the course of these proceedings that despite all
3 heated debates from time to time, heated debates, the Prosecution and all
4 members of the Defence team had a good working relationship, if not to say
5 an exceptionally good work relationship.
6 This good working relationship certainly ensured the fact that
7 this trial has, in our view, run quite smoothly over the last month and
8 this good relationship has also ensured, in our view, the maintenance of
9 the quite exceptional pace of these proceedings.
10 Finally, Mr. President, Your Honours, I hope that I was able to
11 contribute to the very difficult task of the Trial Chamber, of the
12 Chamber, your Honourable Judges, to find out the truth in this case.
13 On a last note, I wish to -- everybody -- I wish everybody in and
14 around the courtroom all the best for their professional but more
15 importantly for their private life.
16 Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.
18 Is there anything that Defence counsel would like to say?
19 Yes, Mrs. Residovic.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] On behalf of my colleagues from
21 the Kubura team and from General Hadzihasanovic's Defence team, we would
22 just like to confirm everything that my learned colleague has just said.
23 We have worked in a professional situation, and thanks to Mr. Withopf in
24 particular we have managed to fulfil our duties as Defence counsel.
25 In such a situation, it is difficult for the Defence to only
1 speak positively about the role of the Prosecutor. We won't speak about
2 this at the moment because, as my colleague has said, we have often been
3 in conflict with the Prosecution and often we have had quite significant
4 requests which were addressed to the Prosecution. That is our role. That
5 is our role, because as Defence counsel we have to fight to prove our
6 client's cases. But in order to proceed, it is necessary to have good --
7 a good working relationship with the Prosecution.
8 Thanks to Mr. Withopf, I would like to say that both teams were
9 very happy with our collaboration, and we would like to wish him all the
10 best in his new position.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Would the other Defence team like to say anything?
13 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Mr. President. If I could add to what my
14 learned friend has said in thanking Mr. Withopf for everything that he has
15 done in contributing to the effective functioning of this trial and the
16 professional manner in which it has been conducted. It has been a joy and
17 a pleasure to work with him, and I do on behalf of everyone wish him very
18 well in his new position at the ICC, and I'm sure he will contribute
19 greatly to bringing the first cases and first indictments before that
20 historic court.
21 Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Dixon.
23 The Trial Chamber naturally wishes you all the best in your
24 future career in ICC. We were very glad to see that when the Trial
25 Chamber requested that you provide them with tables or other documents,
1 you were always able to comply with our requests, and in the course of the
2 debates before the Chamber you always responded very courteously to the
3 requests made by the Judges or to the comments expressed by the Defence.
4 We wish you all the best in your career and perhaps in some other
5 life we will meet you again.
6 It's almost 1.45 now. We haven't worked beyond this time. I
7 would like to thank everyone present, and I would like to invite everyone
8 to appear tomorrow at 9.00, without Mr. Withopf, of course.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day of
11 May, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.