Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8437

1 Wednesday, 2 June 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, would you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case Number IT-01-47-T, The

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. May we have the

10 appearances, please, Prosecution first.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, counsel,

12 and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the Prosecution, Matthias

13 Neuner, Daryl Mundis, and our case manager, Mr. Andres Vatter.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. For the Defence,

15 please.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President, good

17 morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina

18 Residovic, counsel, and Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel. Thank you.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. For

20 the Defence of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Madam Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

21 Mulalic, legal assistant.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber would like to greet

23 all and sundry, the Prosecution, the Defence, and everybody else, as well

24 as the staff in the courtroom. As you know full well, we're going to hear

25 and see videotapes broadcast according to the guidelines set out

Page 8438

1 yesterday, but before we go ahead with the videotapes, I think we're going

2 to be handed the transcripts. But I understand that the transcripts

3 around ready yet, and that the Prosecution would like to say a few words

4 in that regard. But we're going to go into private session for that,

5 please, Mr. Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in private session.

7 [Private session]

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

21 Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Since we're in open

23 session, I saw the arrival of the transcripts, I believe, in the binders.

24 So I'm going to give the floor to the Prosecution. And you're going to

25 explain to us how you intend to proceed.

Page 8451

1 MR. NEUNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, Defence

2 counsels.

3 At this point in time, just three binders of the eleven copies

4 arrived. However, my understanding is that the other outstanding eight

5 binders are currently worked on and that within a short period of time

6 they will be available.

7 I will seize this opportunity and make some preliminary remarks

8 relating to the video screening. And I have divided these preliminary

9 remarks into six sections, the first dealing with the status or the

10 condition of the videotapes in general; the second with the presentation

11 prepared for today and tomorrow; and the third section dealing with the

12 videos, I will call them on reserve, which can be shown at a later time;

13 the fourth section dealing with the three blocks of the actual

14 presentation prepared for today and tomorrow; the fifth section dealing

15 with the binders which are still being prepared; and the sixth remark I

16 have is relating to the procedure in which these tapes are being shown.

17 And I have also one question relating to the procedure.

18 Let me turn to the first section, the status and condition of the

19 videotapes. The Prosecution wishes to make some general remarks to the

20 videotapes. Once they arrive in the building, as Mr. Mundis has pointed

21 out yesterday, not all of the tapes, of the videotapes, contain one full

22 movie or one full broadcast; rather, the majority of these tapes contain

23 so-called compilations, meaning that several sections on these tapes,

24 there are sometimes 10, 15, or even 25 different sections on these tapes.

25 And what the Prosecution has done, the Prosecution has made some

Page 8452

1 selections which was basically distributed yesterday on the page given to

2 the -- Your Honours and to the Defence.

3 Some of these tapes are, when they arrive in the building, also

4 slightly damaged, which has to do that they come from former wartime area

5 or that these tapes have been used several times. They have been recorded

6 all over and all over. So sometimes before a tape arrives in the

7 building, it has been recorded 20 or even 50 times. And for this reason,

8 the quality of the tapes is partly diminished. There is sometimes no

9 audio available or distorted audio available or even the image is

10 distorted.

11 Another reason for the distortion of the image can be that the

12 tapes usually arrive as VHS tapes here in the building, and in the course

13 of the processing of these tapes the OTP is currently using digital

14 technology, meaning that the VHS tapes are digitised, which, I'm not a

15 technician, but as far as I understand it the signals sent on a VHS tape

16 are different than the signals received and sent from a digital tape. So

17 while pulling the signals from a VHS level up to a digital level, my

18 understanding is that there can be also some quality loss. And for this

19 reason, you will see today and the following days that some of the images

20 are distorted and no audio is available.

21 Let me turn to the second section, to the presentation prepared.

22 At this stage, a little bit more than three hours of video footage have

23 been selected, about 189 minutes. Split up currently into 11 sequences.

24 These 11 sequences come from 8 different videotapes. Four of these

25 videotapes are shown in full length, and another 7 sequences are coming

Page 8453

1 from four tapes, meaning that several sequences have been drawn from one

2 tape, for example. The smallest sequence is, for example, 1 minute, while

3 the longest sequence for the time being is 111 minutes, close to two

4 hours.

5 In the third section, I briefly want to talk about the videos on

6 the so-called reserve list. Currently, 14 videos are on this list. And

7 there are multiple reasons for this reserve status. As I mentioned

8 earlier, the quality of these tapes can be one reason. Another reason can

9 be that they have already been admitted into evidence. For example,

10 Exhibit P63, which was tendered with the witness Nenad Bogeljic in this

11 courtroom on the 11th of February 2004. Another reason can be that there

12 is duplicate footage on these tapes, meaning that one tape basically

13 contains a smaller or longer portion which is already contained on another

14 videotape which will be shown in the three blocks.

15 A further reason is that potential witnesses, I will call it like

16 this, potential witnesses make statements on these tapes, and the

17 Prosecution is well aware that it is not intended to introduce any

18 potential witness statements through video evidence because there is no

19 possibility for cross-examination by the Defence.

20 Another reason is that the compilations, once they were analysed

21 on these tapes, contain partially irrelevant sequences. An example is

22 that on one tape, for example, about 90 minutes of video evidence relating

23 to Serb crimes was contained, and only 1-and-a-half minutes relating to

24 crimes committed by the ABiH side. The final reason, I leave it with

25 this.

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Page 8455

1 Fourthly, the fourth section, I will deal with the three blocks

2 which will be presented. As I said, a selection has been done, and the

3 first block is dealing with crimes mentioned in the indictment and the 7th

4 Muslim Mountain Brigade. Four videos, all together about 30 minutes will

5 be shown. The second section is dealing with -- the second block is

6 dealing with the mujahedin, five videos have currently been prepared,

7 about 150 minutes. And the last section is dealing with the mujahedin and

8 the ABiH.

9 I will now talk briefly about the binders which I understand

10 arrived in the building. We have currently nine binders here, and we'll

11 distribute them. May I ask the usher, please. Regarding these binders,

12 all the transcripts which were available on our systems and which are

13 relating to the 22 tapes in total, all our transcripts and translations

14 have been assembled in these binders. And if you open these binders, you

15 see at the beginning the kind of index sheet -- just one second, please.

16 May I just ask Your Honours and the Defence counsel whether each

17 of these binders contains an index sheet in the beginning, which is before

18 the first divider? I understand yes. Thank you very much. This index

19 sheet lists basically the ERN numbers as they are on the Prosecution's

20 pre-trial exhibit list. And these index -- these video ERNs should help

21 Your Honours, the Defence counsel, and the translators to quickly access

22 the transcripts and translations contained on the video excerpts.

23 If you take, for example, the first -- if you go to the first

24 section of these binders, I think it's videotape V0003764. And if you

25 open the first section, you will find, I believe, an English transcript

Page 8456

1 because this tape was mainly recorded in the English language. And what

2 the Prosecution team has done, it has assembled all transcripts which were

3 ever produced either in-house, by the Prosecution, or out-of-house,

4 meaning by other sources, of this tape.

5 As it stands, there are multiple transcripts available on this

6 tape which are partially in summarised form, and the first, I believe, is

7 more or less a very, very broad transcript which even gives the names of

8 the persons, if it was possible to identify these persons. Just one more

9 remark: As you can see, on this first transcript, there is no footage

10 provided, which makes it a little bit more difficult to follow, especially

11 if a specific excerpt is being played by the Prosecution.

12 If you go to the end of this divider and you just see the last

13 pages of the first section, you will see that there is a second, more

14 summarised transcript of this tape. And you will also see that this time,

15 this draft summary transcript contains also footage. So this results from

16 different teams having produced these transcripts and translations and

17 having had different emphasis on the actual video excerpts they were

18 looking for. In this case, you see no translation of this transcript into

19 B/C/S. As I said earlier, the Prosecution has tried to assemble all

20 information available on each tape, but if there was no translation from

21 English into B/C/S or into French being produced, like it is here in this

22 case of this tape, we also for lack of resources could not produce these

23 tapes -- could not produce these translations.

24 Generally, the order within the individual sections contained in

25 the binder is that first, the English transcripts or translations are

Page 8457

1 assembled, followed by the B/C/S versions, if available, at a later stage

2 within one and the same divider.

3 Then before the screening, with regard to the procedure, my last

4 part, before the screening -- or I just leave it with this, Your Honours,

5 if you have any questions.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Prosecution has

7 addressed all the issues regarding the viewing of this video. We have

8 been informed that some of the videotapes are in a poor state, which we

9 will see when viewing them. Three hours will be seen today. There are

10 four tapes that will be viewed. There are seven other tapes, but we have

11 189 minutes in total. The Prosecution has 14 videos in its possession

12 which are on a so-called reserve list. And they will be presented on the

13 basis of three broad criteria. One has to do with violations; the second

14 criterion has to do with the mujahedin; and the third has to do with the

15 mujahedin and the BiH Army. The 22 videos have for the most part been

16 translated into B/C/S. Unfortunately, some of them haven't been

17 translated into B/C/S. The 22 videos are referred to in the 22 tabs that

18 we have. So it's efficient to find the appropriate divider, and we can

19 then find the translation into English and the translation into B/C/S.

20 Are there any technical issues that the Defence would like to

21 address? Are there any questions the Defence would like to ask the

22 Prosecution before we start viewing these videos? No questions?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, given that this is

24 evidence for the Prosecution, the right of the accused, according to Rule

25 21 of the Statute, provides that the accused should be provided with

Page 8458

1 documents in their own language. For the first section, we have no

2 translation into the Bosnian language, and it's not contained in the video

3 material itself. Because it is quite obvious that this video concerns

4 someone who spoke in Arabic, the accused was not in a position to read

5 this material in his own language. But we believe that if everything that

6 is said on the video is translated in the courtroom into a language that

7 the accused understands, into the accused's language, in such a case we

8 can go ahead and view this material. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The Defence has quite

10 rightly pointed out that the text in English, the video in English, is a

11 video for which we have no translation into B/C/S for the accused. What I

12 would like to know is when this text is presented, will there be a

13 simultaneous interpretation which will enable the accused to hear the

14 translation of what they can see on the screen?

15 Very well. The interpreters have told me that if the text is in

16 Arabic, then naturally they can't translate from the Arabic language into

17 B/C/S unless it goes from Arabic into English and then from English into

18 B/C/S. Could the Prosecution perhaps provide us with some more

19 information about this problem. Do we have videos in which only Arabic is

20 spoken? If that is the case, we'll have a problem as far as translating

21 this into B/C/S is concerned because we'll have a translation from Arabic

22 into English, but not from Arabic into B/C/S. Am I correct in saying

23 this?

24 MR. NEUNER: As far as the Prosecution is aware, there is no

25 excerpt which will be shown which is exclusively in the Arabic language.

Page 8459

1 As the Defence has rightly pointed out, in the first video, V0003764,

2 there are some portions where the mujahedin or the persons shown use also

3 the Arabic language. And the Prosecution has made some efforts to also

4 get these passages translated, but as of today, it was not possible to get

5 Arabic transcript or an Arabic -- translation from Arabic into English.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Prosecution says

7 that there are parts in Arabic which haven't even been translated into

8 English. We will see what the situation is. And after having viewed the

9 videotapes, the Defence can make submissions and contest the videotapes

10 because the contents weren't translated.

11 We could perhaps commence. We have another half an hour before

12 the break, unless there is anything else you would like to add.

13 MR. NEUNER: I would just, with regard to the Arabic language used

14 on these tapes, make two little comments: The first being that, as I

15 pointed out earlier, the amount of time or footage which is exclusively in

16 Arab is very, very limited; and secondly -- so the vast majority of the

17 tapes -- the overwhelming majority of the tapes has been transcribed and

18 translated into English and B/C/S. And secondly, it is certainly not the

19 intention of the Prosecution to rely on these Arabic passages or to draw

20 any inferences out of them.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for that

22 clarification. You may proceed with the operation.

23 MR. NEUNER: With regard to the procedure, the Prosecution would

24 like to give some information on each excerpt which will be shown first.

25 Your Honours pointed out yesterday that the date should be stated, that if

Page 8460

1 available, the originator should be given, information on the submitter,

2 and on the manner in which this tape was obtained, and on the length.

3 The only question which remains for the Prosecution is whether

4 already little information on the content of the tapes should be given in

5 advance or whether no information at all about what the tape will be about

6 should be given in advance. I raise this issue because some of the

7 sequences, for example, the first or the fourth sequence, is just one

8 minute long. The first sequence being 4 minutes long. So within 1

9 minute, it's a very short time, and it might assist Your Honours and the

10 Defence if a short description or just the topic of the tape is given in

11 advance. But I'm asking for guidance here.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I will give the floor to

13 the Defence to hear what their opinion is, to see what -- how they would

14 like to proceed. There are two alternatives for the Prosecution: Either

15 before viewing the video, they could inform us of when the video was made,

16 who made it, they can tell us about the conditions under which they

17 obtained the video. They can provide us with all information that might

18 be useful in the light of the Defence's comments yesterday, in light of

19 the question of the reliability of the tapes. Or we could first view the

20 tapes, and then hear the explanations that the Prosecution could provide.

21 How would the Defence like to proceed? The Trial Chamber would like an

22 agreement to be reached at this point in time. So there are two ways of

23 proceeding. How would you like to proceed?

24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Our

25 position is that we would first like to have information on the date, the

Page 8461

1 source, and the manner in which the Prosecution obtained the videotape.

2 And we would like information on how the video was made. So we would like

3 this technical information before we view the videos. And then,

4 Mr. President, as far as the contents of the tapes are concerned,

5 naturally it's our opinion that the Prosecution can't testify about what

6 is contained in these videotapes. So our position, Mr. President, is that

7 the Prosecution should restrict itself to telling us what the link is.

8 They could tell us that this video concerns a certain count in the

9 indictment, and then it would be for the Trial Chamber to assess the

10 relevance and all other matters.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Dixon.

12 MR. DIXON: Your Honours, I agree the best way of proceeding would

13 be to get an explanation at the beginning of how the video was obtained,

14 but we would not in any way consent to the Prosecution being able to

15 provide any description or interpretation of what is on the video. That is

16 for Your Honours to assess once the video has been shown. And after the

17 video has been shown, we would request an opportunity to be able to

18 address Your Honours on the admissibility of the video once we've all

19 viewed the video. Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Prosecution will

21 first address the issue of technical matters. And as Mr. Bourgon said,

22 they will indicate what the link is between the videos and the indictment.

23 But naturally, the question of the videos' contents should not be

24 addressed. The Prosecution could quite simply say that this videotape is

25 linked or related to a given paragraph in the indictment, and that should

Page 8462

1 be it. So I hope this is clear for everyone now.

2 You may take the floor to tell us about the length of the first

3 videotape, to tell us when it was made, by whom, to tell us how you

4 obtained it, and to inform us of how this videotape relates to a given

5 paragraph or count or violation in the indictment. But no other comments

6 should be made.

7 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, the first section which will be shown

8 is contained in tab number 13 of your binders. In tab number 13, you find

9 two translations of the video sequence which has a duration of 4 minutes.

10 There is no B/C/S transcript provided.

11 The first page is a nonrevised transcript, while the second is a

12 more final translation. The order in which both translations were

13 provided results from the fact that the unofficial translation has footage

14 next to it, and for this reason the Prosecution thought it is advantageous

15 to have this first. But the final translation is the -- contained on the

16 second page. The tape is shown for 4 minutes. As I understand it, it's

17 in its entirety. The date of this sequence is the 31st of January 1993.

18 Basically, the wounds of dead victims of the Ducina incidents are shown.

19 And insofar as this videotape relates to paragraph 39(aa) and 39(ab) of

20 the indictment since Zvonko Rajic and the other victims are shown on the

21 tape. The source who -- the author of the tape is unknown to the

22 Prosecution. The source or submitter of the tape is the Defence team in

23 the Blaskic case. This tape was brought in front of Trial Chamber III of

24 this Tribunal by way of the Witness Marko Prskalo. Prskalo, I will state

25 this for the record: P-r-s-k-a-l-o. Marko Prskalo. And it was tendered

Page 8463

1 by the Blaskic Defence as Exhibit D/208/1.

2 Are there any questions relating to --

3 JUDGE SWART: Yes, I would like to put to you one question. I

4 understand this is contested Exhibit Number 354. Is that correct? It

5 would be helpful if you make a reference for every tape also to the list

6 of contested exhibit documents. That makes it easier. Thank you.

7 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I can do this right now. I checked

8 this information, and the Defence may correct me. But as I understand it,

9 each and every tape, the authenticity of each and every tape has been

10 challenged.

11 JUDGE SWART: But there is one tape that is also probably included

12 in P63 of the Prosecution's admitted evidence. And I see, I think, also

13 two tapes that have been admitted for the purpose of identification, P69

14 ID and P70 ID. I don't know whether you will show that or you have

15 referred to that problem earlier.

16 MR. NEUNER: Your Honour, excerpts from P69 and from P70 will be

17 shown either today or tomorrow. And certainly, the Prosecution has made

18 efforts to get more information with regard to the submitter and authors.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, if the Chamber

20 understands this correctly, the tape that is being played is going to last

21 4 minutes. And it was supplied by the Defence in Colonel Blaskic, the

22 Colonel Blaskic case, through the testimony of a witness, and you gave us

23 the name. And it is D/208/1 of the said trial. And the tape was played

24 on the 31st of January 1993. So that is the information that the

25 Prosecution has supplied to the Chamber and the Defence counsel. I think

Page 8464

1 the best course would be to see the tape and then to hear the observations

2 of the Defence.

3 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I would have just one final remark

4 which relates not directly to this tape, but to tape V0002400 which is

5 contained in tab number 15 of your binders. Because this is -- the

6 excerpt being shown now is a 4-minute excerpt, and under tab 15 there is a

7 more -- there is a longer tape which is 32 minutes in length which can be

8 considered a kind of duplicate to the excerpt which is just being shown.

9 The Prosecution just wanted to point that out. The selection was made

10 just to show the 4 minutes because on the other tape, V0002400, there are

11 also some potential witnesses. And since there is no possibility for

12 cross-examination, this tape has been put on the reserve list, so to

13 speak.

14 We are prepared to show the video now. Just one more technical

15 remark: Mr. Vatter just pointed out that please everybody on their

16 screens should press down the button which is called "computer evidence."

17 Is everybody on the screen, the display "Windows Media"? I understand

18 yes.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. NEUNER: If I may just interrupt for a second, there is no

21 audio obviously, which is kind of surprising since yesterday it worked

22 perfectly. If possible, the Prosecution would go for an early break to

23 address this technical issue after the tape has been shown. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We took note of the fact

25 that there was no sound, and the best course would be to make the

Page 8465

1 technical break now. Have a pause to give you a chance to put that right.

2 And we'll reconvene at a quarter to 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.12 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, if we've put technical

6 matters right, let's try again. It's only four minutes, so shall we play

7 the tape again with the commentary.

8 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, my understanding is the technical

9 problems have been solved. And for Judge Swart, I've just one more

10 information: The PT number of this sequence is PT973. The tape will be

11 played now.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but we haven't got anything

13 on our screens. Yes, it seems to be appearing.

14 [In English] It's okay.

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Ladies and gentlemen, viewers,

17 mutilated pople from Lasva. And these are their names: Rajic Zvonko,

18 Rajic Franjo, Kegelj Stipe, Kegelj Niko, Kegelj Vinko, Kegelj Dragan,

19 Ljubicic Pero, Stanjic Vojo, Kegelj Mladen, and Rados August.

20 "They lost their lives in Lasva during the attacks of the Muslim

21 aggressor army.

22 "God rest their soul.

23 "This is the body of Commander Rajic Zvonko. According to

24 statements, he was first shot in the head from a Skorpion. After that,

25 all these atrocities were committed. Here you can see the heart has been

Page 8466

1 cut out, arms cut off, and everything else that you can see on this

2 footage."

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm now to give the floor for

4 the Defence if they have any observations. The Chamber, having seen the

5 tape, notes that there are several bodies. I have counted nine. But as

6 it was very fast, there was music, there was comments made by one voice,

7 and then they focussed in on each of the bodies with traces of shots.

8 That was the first one. The second also had cases of knives and shots,

9 and he had the left leg and right leg. On the fourth body, there were

10 traces of -- on the thorax, you couldn't see the face because the face was

11 covered with a cloth. The fifth body showed different traces around the

12 mouth. The sixth body showed traces on the face and also on the side of

13 the body. The seventh body showed a face that was mutilated and also in

14 the thorax region. The eighth body showed lacerations on the body, and

15 the comment told that us that was the body of commander Rajic Zvonko with

16 the heart cut out. His arms were cut off and there were multiple traces

17 of gunshot wounds.

18 We also briefly saw a ninth body. It was difficult to make out

19 any observations as it was very quick.

20 So the eighth body that was shown according to the commentary was

21 the body of Commander Rajic. So, as it stands, that is what we were able

22 to see. Those were the bodies. They all seemed to have been washed

23 because there were no traces of blood, so they were certainly washed. And

24 they were enveloped in sheets, mortuary sheets. So that very briefly is

25 what I have to say about the tape itself. Of course, if we were to see

Page 8467

1 the footage again, we could be more precise on each individual body.

2 Now, having said that, would the Defence like to make any

3 comments? If not, we can move on to the next tape.

4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

5 Defence comments are as follows: As was stated by the Prosecution, the

6 author of the video was somebody not known. The source of the video was

7 from Marko Prskalo. He testified in the Blaskic trial. But we have no

8 information as to whether the man recognised the bodies that were

9 presented. We also can say that we don't know where the bodies were lying

10 when they were filmed, when this footage was made. We don't know who held

11 the camera, who mounted the film and added the music.

12 As far as the stenographic notes are concerned, we are given

13 ten -- provided with ten names whereas we counted nine bodies on the

14 video. Whereas in the transcript, the names are stated by the narrator,

15 whereas the bodies were not aligned with the bodies [as interpreted], so

16 we don't know which of the names fitted which actual body except for the

17 body of the commander, Commander Rajic, where the camera focussed in on

18 that corpse. And the transcript tells us that Commander Rajic had his

19 arms cut off. We were not able to actually observe whether that was so or

20 not on the basis of the footage shown. And according to the commentary,

21 it also said that his heart had been cut out. Of course, we have

22 absolutely no information, Mr. President, to actually prove that the heart

23 had been cut out. So, rather, it looked like an exit wound, a shot or a

24 bullet entering from the back and exiting from the front. But of course,

25 there can be many explanations of that hole. It might have been a shell;

Page 8468

1 it might have been something else. So we don't know if the heart was

2 actually cut out. We have no way of knowing. And my last point is with

3 respect to the pertinence of this piece of evidence, the Defence has

4 already stated its views on the deaths of these individuals, except for

5 that of Mr. Zvonko Rajic. And the Defence admits -- it seems that the

6 camera has identified Commander Rajic, so we can admit that he is indeed

7 dead. But otherwise, the tape doesn't seem to be pertinent at all in that

8 respect.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.

10 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. Two points: The first is

11 that with regard to the narration that is on the video, and this is

12 something that occurs on many of the videos, that there's a voice in the

13 background making comments and giving interpretations. In our submission,

14 those comments should not be admitted into evidence because it's

15 impossible for us to verify whether those comments are true or not, and

16 certainly without the witness being here who narrated the video and who

17 was part of making the video, we as the Defence have no ability to

18 cross-examine that video. That's a point relating to this video, but also

19 to many others in the future.

20 Turning to the actual footage itself, I note that this was

21 introduced in the Blaskic case through a witness, which is, as Your

22 Honours know, is the preferable was from the Defence point of view for the

23 introduction of such evidence. But at the very least, we would request

24 that the transcript of that evidence be made available so that we're able

25 to ascertain whether that witness could in any way identify this

Page 8469

1 videotape. The Prosecution could at least endeavour to ascertain that and

2 make that available to Your Honours and the Defence. Thank you,

3 Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Prosecution has

5 taken note of what has been said.

6 MR. NEUNER: Thank you very much, Your Honours. First of all, the

7 Prosecution wants to follow up on a suggestion made by Mr. Rodney Dixon

8 just a moment ago. Indeed, we tried to get and identify the relevant

9 portions of the transcript in the Blaskic case. And for reasons of

10 producing the binders which took us more time than expected, we had not

11 enough time left to identify these transcripts. But first efforts were

12 done, and this will be submitted at a later point in time.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let's continue.

14 MR. NEUNER: So the Prosecution would then move on to the second

15 excerpt, which is in the binder, tab number 2. And this time, only an

16 excerpt will be shown from the whole tape, V0001963, which has a duration

17 of 1 hour and 14 minutes. Just an excerpt of 6 minutes has been isolated.

18 And the footage, the relevant footage of this excerpt, is 8 minutes and 10

19 seconds running up to 14 minutes and 30 seconds. And the relevant excerpt

20 is dating from 1992. We are not exactly in a position to give the exact

21 date. On the tape, at certain portions, it is displayed 21st of August

22 1992, while the tape itself is entitled "Formation of the 7th Muslim

23 Mountain Brigade in 1992 in Travnik." This is an information we received

24 from our system. The relevant portion of the indictment would be

25 paragraph 16 and 17 of the indictment. And it states in paragraph 16, on

Page 8470

1 19th of November 1992, the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade was formed. So at

2 this point in time, the Prosecution sees that there are two possible

3 dates, both in 1992; one, which is given on the tape, 21st of August; and

4 the other one, which is stated in the indictment, is the 19th of November

5 1992.

6 The author of this tape is a person called Abdulathim Muktaufa.

7 The Prosecution tried to get additional information on this person. And

8 in our system, we could find that Mr. Abdulathim Muktaufa -- I will spell

9 his name first of all. M-u-k-t-a-u-f-a, that Mr. Abdulathim Muktaufa is

10 the son of Mehmed, who was born on the 3rd of January 1939. And he is, if

11 I understand it correctly, he was of Iraqi origin, born in Basra, and

12 belonged at some point in time to the El mujahid battalion and was based

13 in Travnik. With regard to the submitter, this tape was -- could I maybe

14 move into closed session before I talk about the submitter.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we go into

16 private session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 MR. DIXON: Your Honours, before the tape is showed, if I could

24 ask through Your Honours for the Prosecution to clarify where they got

25 this information that they have given us now about who actually produced

Page 8471

1 the video. This is the first time we've heard of this information. And

2 as Your Honours will be aware, it's of course not for the Prosecution to

3 provide evidence about how a video was made. But seeing they have given

4 this information to Your Honours, and this is new information, we do wish

5 to know what the origin of that information was so that we can take that

6 into account when we do view the video.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll go back into

8 private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8472

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Page 8472 redacted, private session

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8473

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're now in open session. So

7 we can start viewing the video.

8 MR. NEUNER: If I can just make a technical announcement, in the

9 second tab in the binder provided to Your Honours and the Defence, there

10 are again several transcripts and translations. And as announced earlier,

11 just the section running from 8 minutes and 10 seconds will be displayed,

12 running up to 14 minutes 30. With regard to the English translation of

13 that section, these are the first two pages contained in tab 2, while

14 later on there is a more summarised version of the whole tape. So it's

15 with regard to the English translation, it's the first two pages. And at

16 the end, there is also the relevant B/C/S transcripts for the translators

17 which also gives an exact time code which should be 8 hours and, I think,

18 10 seconds. The tape will be displayed -- shown now.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters would like to note there's nothing

21 audible. They can't hear anything.

22 Interpreters would like to note that most of the sound is so bad

23 that it's almost incomprehensible.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber

25 notes that the videotape is of very poor quality. A number of things

Page 8474

1 appear on the track, on the videotape. There is a line of young soldiers.

2 There are at least 50 of them. I tried to count them. Some of them have

3 light arms; some of them have rifles. But some have no weapons. Some

4 have a blue armband. Some appear to be soldiers from the north, and the

5 camera lingers on someone who seems to come from a northern country rather

6 than from a Mediterranean country. Our impression is that the -- as far

7 as the 50 soldiers are concerned, it's very difficult to say whether there

8 are men from other parts, from other areas outside of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina or from countries which are further to the north. On the

10 other hand, there are people -- there are onlookers, women, children,

11 adults, but we also note that there are a number of soldiers in military

12 uniform who were older than those that we can see lined up. And they seem

13 to be the superiors of these young men. There are two persons who play a

14 role in the tape. One has a megaphone in a military uniform, and next to

15 him there is someone in white with a turban. It seems to be a religious

16 person. And there are other people who are also dressed completely in

17 white and they are a little behind the person we have just mentioned, the

18 first person.

19 The text is often in Arabic, so we don't know what is being said.

20 And our subjective impression is that either -- someone is awaited. We

21 have the impression that someone is supposed to arrive, and everyone is

22 waiting. Perhaps this is the wrong interpretation, but we don't really

23 see what the purpose of this scene would be. All we can say is that

24 there's a line up of young men in military uniform. They don't have

25 berets or helmets. Some of them have beards, but most of them don't have

Page 8475

1 beards. The one with the megaphone has a beard. Very briefly, this is

2 what one can see, this is what I have noted. What could the Defence tell

3 us?

4 In the background, I could say that a hill can be seen. It's

5 probably very easy to identify the site given the geographical

6 characteristics. It shouldn't be difficult to identify the site.

7 Mr. Bourgon.

8 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would

9 just like to add a few comments to those made by the Chamber. First of

10 all, we don't know who the people in the video are. We don't know where

11 the site is. Mr. President, perhaps the Trial Chamber could identify the

12 site of this scene, but the Defence has no idea as to the site.

13 Why are these people there? We don't know. The text provided, we

14 have no idea of the purpose of this gathering. We don't know when this

15 took place. We don't know whether it took place on the date mentioned on

16 the video itself or on the date put forward by the Prosecution. The

17 person with the megaphone, we really don't know who this person is. We

18 don't know which army he may belong to. The religious person who is

19 there, we don't know who he is. We don't know what his religion is.

20 Nothing allows us to say anything about the formation of the brigade

21 mentioned in the paragraph referred to by the Prosecution.

22 According to what we can see, Mr. President, our position is that

23 if no one can come to help the Chamber and tell us what the purpose of the

24 video is, what the purpose of the scene is, in such a case this is

25 information that cannot assist the Trial Chamber in reaching its

Page 8476

1 decisions. As far as the question of witnesses are concerned, it is

2 important. If the witness were here, he could tell us who provided the

3 video. We know that the video isn't an original. We know that the video

4 provided to the Prosecution was tampered with later on. We don't know who

5 the individual is who apparently made the video. We have no information

6 as to his identity. We don't know where he was. We don't know what his

7 profession was. We don't know whether this is a video amateur or a

8 professional video filmer. We don't know whether this video was ordered

9 or whether it was a personal video. We can see nothing in this video that

10 would assist the Chamber to perform its task. Thank you, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

12 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. The first point would be

13 just on a technical matter that the translation after tab 2, the first

14 page which has number 2 on the bottom, is not, in fact, the transcript

15 relevant to this video at all. I believe that's a transcript for another

16 video. So the first page on tab 2 should be removed. It's really the

17 second page that provides the transcript. Perhaps it's just a mistake in

18 my binder, but I think it's a mistake in all of them. That's just a

19 technical matter, Your Honour.

20 But moving on to the substance of the video, in our submission,

21 this video should not be admitted into evidence. As Your Honours have

22 indicated, it's very unclear what this is a video of. The Prosecution

23 seeks to rely on this video to show that this was a scene when the 7th

24 Brigade was forming. However, that information that it is the 7th Brigade

25 comes entirely from their own documents. There's nothing in the video

Page 8477

1 which shows that it's the 7th Brigade, nothing in the transcript, nothing

2 in what was said or in the insignia that shows that that has anything to

3 do with the 7th Brigade whatsoever. And indeed, Your Honour, it is

4 contradictory to what is contained in the indictment at paragraph 16,

5 which is the allegation that the Prosecution makes that the 7th Brigade

6 was formed on the 19th of November 1992. In our submission, the

7 Prosecution cannot rely upon this video, which is clearly dated the 21st

8 of August 1992, that that appears on the bottom of the video. To prove a

9 point which is very different in the indictment at paragraph 16. They

10 can't have it both ways. If the allegation is that the 7th Brigade was

11 formed in November, they can't rely upon this video to prove that because

12 the date is clearly different. In any event, there's nothing which

13 indicates that this has anything to do with the 7th Brigade, as I've said,

14 or that it was filmed in Travnik where the Prosecution say this battalion

15 was being formed.

16 I return to my earlier point, Your Honours, which is that if the

17 witness who had been called earlier had been asked about these issues, it

18 might have been become clearer, and most importantly, the Defence would

19 have had an opportunity to cross-examine that witness on these very

20 important points. And as that witness was not asked about these issues

21 and there's no witness available now, we would submit that this video

22 should not be admitted into evidence for the Prosecution case. It's not

23 relevant to any issue in the indictment, including the paragraphs that the

24 Prosecution referred to. Thank you, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution have taken note

Page 8478

1 of what has just been said. Do they have anything to say, any comments to

2 make?

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has a couple of remarks. First of

5 all, with the location in Travnik, yes, it's correct; this information was

6 taken from the system, from the internal system of the Prosecution. Since

7 I haven't entered that information in person, I cannot at this point in

8 time say where that information is coming from or who has entered it. The

9 usual procedure, though, is that once new evidence is submitted to the

10 Prosecution, and if an information index sheet is filled out, and fields

11 on these sheets are basically entered by the person, the representative of

12 the Prosecution who gets this tape. And since I haven't entered this

13 information in the system, I can only speak on behalf of the person who

14 did it. It looks to me personally that this information was entered by

15 the responsible person at the time when he received the video.

16 With regard to the identity of the author of this video, the

17 Prosecution has mentioned the name of the producer, Abdulathim Muktaufa.

18 And an internal search has produced the information which was just

19 provided a few minutes ago. And this information pointed out that at

20 least at some point in time this Mr. Abdulathim Muktaufa was part of the

21 brigade mujahedin. What the Prosecution being aware about the problems

22 just raised by the Defence has done, it has pulled some stills, some

23 photos, from the sequence just shown since some of the army members shown

24 on this video had insignia on their -- below their shoulder patches. And

25 the Prosecution has basically two stills from the videotape just shown.

Page 8479

1 One is relating to insignia -- or three tapes -- three photos. Two are

2 relating to the insignia shown on the uniforms of these soldier. And the

3 third still is taken from the commander or the person who is delivering

4 the speech through the megaphone, the person who was shown with the brown

5 beard and who was shaven next to his ears. The Prosecution would be

6 prepared to present these three pictures.

7 And in relation to the insignia, compare the insignia with Exhibit

8 P5 which shows -- which is basically the insignia board and which shows

9 under number 4 an insignia which looks similar, if not identical, to the

10 insignia shown on the video.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Prosecution has

12 just told us the following: That it had the number P5, Exhibit P5, with a

13 spread of insignia. The Prosecution also took note of the fact that the

14 insignia that was number 4 on the spread corresponds or would correspond

15 to the insignia on the people that we've just seen on the footage, at

16 least for two of them, as well as an insignia that was on the person

17 carrying the megaphone. And the Prosecution, with the technical means at

18 its disposal, has also given us a still, or rather a blowup on a still,

19 and the Prosecution has suggested that it show us those photographs, and

20 there are three of them, I believe, those stills.

21 What does the Defence have to say? Any objections?

22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would, of course,

23 like to see those three stills or photographs provided by the Prosecution,

24 especially as they could of use to us in helping us out. Because the

25 information that we have received so far, if we look at Exhibit Number 5

Page 8480

1 and the P5 exhibit, this insignia would correspond to the civilian police

2 and not a military unit as far as we can see. So we don't know understand

3 how this can help us out.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.

5 MR. DIXON: Yes, Your Honour, there's no objection to having a

6 look at these insignia because our submission has been all along that

7 these are not insignia of the 7th Brigade or any military insignia. And

8 as far as I understand, these exhibits would assist the -- in showing

9 that, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Madam Usher, would

11 you hand the photographs to the Chamber to have a look, and we'll pass

12 them on.

13 Very well. We're going to hand the photographs over. We take

14 note that they don't say much, but for what they do tell us, Madam Usher,

15 would you hand them round to the Defence teams. There are some insignia

16 that are blue in colour, of course, but we can't make any observations and

17 conclusions just by looking at them. It would have been a good idea to

18 have a blowup, an enlargement, of the insignia themselves. But anyway,

19 Madam usher, would you please show them round to the Defence teams.

20 Could the Prosecution, or rather, Mr. Registrar, Exhibit P5, may

21 we have it up on the screens, please.

22 We see an insignia under number 4 with a sword, a Crescent and a

23 star. There was something written up on it, but of course we can't make

24 the comparison based on the photograph. I give the floor to the

25 Prosecution.

Page 8481

1 MR. NEUNER: Can we ask to have the photo placed next to

2 exhibit -- next to this section 4 on Exhibit P5 so that maybe a

3 comparison is possible. It's not big enough, no.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, it's impossible to compare

5 the two, really.

6 We can show the next photograph perhaps.

7 The other photograph seems to correspond slightly better, but once

8 again not very clear. It could be, but I say "could."

9 MR. NEUNER: If I may just point out, the outer features, what is

10 in the Prosecution's view still distinguishable on the insignia is that

11 there is a kind of light line running from the right-hand -- from the --

12 in the upper third of the insignia, running from the right-hand side to

13 the left-hand side which could be the saber. And it's also -- there's

14 also a bigger section above the saber and a smaller one below the saber.

15 It's not clearly distinguishable here on this picture, but it's just the

16 Prosecution's suggestion.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we are engaged in

18 hypotheses now. But on the technical level, theoretically speaking, if we

19 were Sherlock Holmes, we could use technical means to enlarge the

20 insignia, to make the insignia clearer. But barring that, the Chamber

21 remains in the realm of incertitude. And we're going to give P5 back to

22 the Registrar and the photographs back to the Prosecution. And let's move

23 on to the next portion.

24 I give the floor to the Prosecution for its third videotape.

25 MR. NEUNER: The third excerpt is V0002781. It's a tape which is

Page 8482

1 played in its entirety. Since there were some technical problems with the

2 digitised version, now the version from the VHS tape, either from the

3 original or from a copy of it, will be played. The exact date of the tape

4 is not known, but it comes -- or dates from November 1993. It's a video

5 showing Alija Izetbegovic who reviews the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade in

6 the Zenica sports centre. It has been -- it has no author. And the

7 source or submitter of this tape has been, again, the Defence team in the

8 Blaskic case, Advocates Hunton and Williams, and it was used as Defence

9 Exhibit D337/1. And the whole tape has a duration of 16 minutes.

10 I just observe that there is no English translation provided in

11 tab number 3. Just one second, please.

12 Yes. It's at least in my binder where the divider has been put at

13 the wrong place. There is an English translation provided in my binder,

14 however; it is at the end of tab number 2. So I assume that everybody has

15 the English translation also available. The PT number of this video is

16 PT1139. And in the Prosecution's opinion, it relates to paragraph 6 of

17 the indictment. The tape will be shown now.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Before we play the

19 tape, are you quite certain that this tape was taken from the Blaskic

20 trial and not the Kordic trial, perhaps?

21 MR. NEUNER: I have here the case number, IT-95-14/2. I will

22 check one moment, and I can also provide this information after the break.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's see the

24 videotape which lasts 16 minutes.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 8483

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Alija Izetbegovic, the President of

2 the Presidency, started his visit to the areas of Central Bosnia by

3 reviewing the 7th Muslim Brigade and staying with this unit. His host was

4 the emir of the Muslim units, Mahmut Karalic, who, in the course of talks

5 held later, informed his important guest of how far the brigade had come

6 down a road which was not strewn with roses, but rather was full of

7 uncertainty and challenges. The President of the Presidency of the

8 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic, spoke of this unit in

9 choice terms and gave his full support to Mahmut Karalic, who has been the

10 target of propaganda and intrigue on innumerable occasions, not only in

11 foreign circles but here in Bosnia and Herzegovina, too.

12 "The President of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

13 Alija Izetbegovic, asked Emir Mahmut Karalic to continue following the

14 route on which he had embarked. Such judgements were not blindly made by

15 the President. The 7th Muslim Brigade, with its Emir Mahmut Karalic at

16 its head, defended Igman after President Izetbegovic called for this

17 himself. It defeated the united enemy in many battles, thus protecting

18 the Bosniak people from further genocide. The closed talks with Emir

19 Mahmut Karalic were preceded by a grandiose welcome given by the

20 combatants from the 7th Muslim Brigade which the President of the

21 Presidency, as he himself said, will remember until the end of his days.

22 The commander of the brigade, Amir Kubura, is reporting.

23 "Dear soldiers of the 7th Muslim Brigade, `selam alejkum.'

24 "The troops reply `selam alejkum.'

25 "`Alejkum selam.'

Page 8484

1 "Dear soldiers, I do not know what this day means to you, but for

2 me this is a really. My speech will not be long. It will be short. Why?

3 Because military speeches are usually not very long. And the second and

4 even more important reason is that not many words are required when people

5 understand each other as well as we do. We can tell each other a lot with

6 very few words.

7 "Dear soldiers of the 7th Muslim Brigade, I would above all like

8 us to remember not to hand the war over to the sehid who fell in the fight

9 for our people. And secondly, I would like to congratulate you on your

10 successes.

11 "Both you and I have gone into battle for this people, to save

12 this people.

13 "In saving this people, we have saved Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 "In fighting for the Muslim people, we are fighting for Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina. This is the direction that our combat for freedom and the

16 salvation of this state has taken. The other thing I would like to tell

17 you is that both my deeds and your are being observed, far more than those

18 of others. Each company of ours, mind how you act. They are watching you

19 and me. We must be very careful how we act. Mind.

20 "And finally, I wish to congratulate you once more and wish you

21 success in battle in this difficult and unequal battle for freedom and the

22 salvation of our people. There are difficult days ahead of us and even

23 more difficult battles. With the help of God, with the help of Allah, we

24 will succeed in this battle. We cannot lose this battle.

25 "Farewell and take care. May Allah be with you and farewell.

Page 8485

1 "Alija, our falcon, the 7th Brigade is with you. Military salute.

2 "After the merciful efendija has recited from the Koran, the dear

3 melody of our hymn `A Son of Yours I Am' rang out through the Bosnian

4 territories. Then Mahmut Karalic, the emir of the 7th Muslim Brigade,

5 saluted the important guest with chosen words.

6 "The soldiers and officers of the 7th Muslim Brigade have the

7 great honour today of welcoming their dearest guest, the Supreme Commander

8 of the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the President of the

9 Republic, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and his aides. In the name of the

10 soldiers and officers of the 7th Muslim Brigade, I would like to bid you

11 welcome and hope that you feel comfortable amongst us.

12 "Would Mr. President please present the military flag to

13 Mr. Amir Kubura, the commander of our brigade.

14 "Dear Amir, Commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade, in presenting you

15 with this flag, I bid you go from victory to victory bearing the flag at

16 the head of your men. I wish you all much success on this path. It is

17 Allah's battle path for the freedom of our people. I wish you all a lot

18 of new successes on this path under this flag.

19 "I have brought something for your commander and emir, a gun as a

20 present which I cannot now present since it has not arrived yet. I will

21 do so later. It is, of course, a symbolic present for two of your

22 leaders, a sort of sign of acknowledgement, a small sign of

23 acknowledgement for what they have done in this fight.

24 "In honour of the President, a premier performance of the hymn of

25 the 7th Muslim Brigade composed by Saban Gadza and interpreted by the

Page 8486

1 En Nur chorus was given, after which Mujahedin Senad Sehic, the winner of

2 the Golden Lily, presented President Izetbegovic with a modest gift from

3 the 7th Muslim Brigade.

4 "Prayers in Arabic."

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That completes the tape. It was

6 a black and white tape of very poor quality, we note, although the sound

7 track was in order. As far as the people shown are concerned, it says TVZ

8 as identification. The scene takes place in a sort of sports hall, I

9 think a basketball court with several hundreds soldiers present. The

10 President Mr. Izetbegovic attends the ceremony. Speeches are held, and he

11 himself delivers a speech, an improvised speech without anything down in

12 writing. The 7th Muslim Brigade is presented. A flag is presented. And

13 it is not without interest that we note that several soldiers are dressed

14 entirely in white, and they turned around those that were standing,

15 standing up. One of them carried the banner, and they turned around like

16 the marines do, American Marines, with small groups running bearing the

17 banner and chanting slogans from the song. That is what we were able to

18 observe.

19 At the end of the tape, there is a prayer which is apparently

20 spoken by one of the soldiers present who has a beret on his head. He

21 does not appear to have the aspects of a religious person, but rather a

22 soldier in front of all those present. At one point in time, just before

23 the prayer was delivered, there was a chorus singing, and it would appear

24 that there were some people in civilians towards the front, and behind

25 some women in veils. And the whole chorus was singing at the same time,

Page 8487

1 together. So that is what one can say on the basis of having seen the

2 footage. Mention was made of the commander of the 3rd Corps and also the

3 name of the commander of the 7th Brigade was mentioned. So we heard from

4 the translation that his first name was Amir, or rather the term used to

5 address him. So we take note of the tape and its viewing, and it lasted

6 16 minutes.

7 Now, what are the Defence's observations with respect to the

8 reliability of the tape and the tape in general?

9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Just a

10 few rapid comments: First of all, regarding the language used. There

11 were parts of the tape that were in Arabic, the song and the prayer, two

12 cases in point. And this is important within the frameworks of the entire

13 tape because we were able to see the attitude and the spirit that was

14 present during such a reunion, the general mood of the reunion, of the

15 ceremony. Now as to date, what date was this ceremony held and to mark

16 which occasion? And ultimately, Mr. President, this concerns the identity

17 of the people that we can see on the tape. Of course, it would appear

18 that President Izetbegovic was identified whilst delivering a speech. As

19 to the other individuals, we have not had any identification as to who

20 they are, who the people present are attending the ceremony, attending

21 that occasion. The Chamber mentioned the presence of the commander of the

22 3rd Corps. That would of course depend, Mr. President, on a date and an

23 identity which we do not have on the tape as yet. Thank you,

24 Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Dixon.

Page 8488

1 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. To follow up from

2 Mr. Bourgon's comment, the date of this particular video is not evident

3 from the video itself. We are able to see the white uniforms which

4 Your Honour mentioned, which are the winter uniforms. So it may be that

5 that gives some indication of the time when the video was filmed. But we

6 would submit that that is an important aspect of this video that is

7 missing which goes to its reliability, exactly when it was filmed, because

8 that would then be important for how the Prosecution can rely upon it to

9 show its relevance to this particular case or a time period in the

10 indictment. That has always been a major dispute with this video, is what

11 exactly its relevance to any of the events in the indictment, if indeed

12 the timing of the video coincides with the period in the indictment. My

13 learned friend from the Prosecution mentioned that paragraph 6 was the

14 relevant paragraph for the indictment which concerns the appointment of

15 Mr. Kubura as commander of the 7th Brigade. In our submission, this video

16 does not confirm when he was appointed as the commander and for what time

17 period he was the commander and is, therefore, not relevant to proving any

18 aspect of paragraph 6.

19 It is correct that Mr. Kubura's name is mentioned as the

20 commander, but without a date we fail to understand of how this could be

21 of use to the Prosecution in supporting paragraph 6 of the indictment.

22 In any event, Your Honour, the contents of paragraph 6, the fact

23 that Mr. Kubura was at some point the commander of the 7th Brigade is, as

24 Your Honours know, not an issue in dispute in this case. And as we've

25 said before, we do not in our view believe that evidence should be

Page 8489

1 submitted when it does not go to an issue in dispute in the case. If it

2 doesn't go to an issue that is contested between the parties, it's not

3 relevant and there's no need for Your Honours to take it into evidence.

4 In addition, Your Honour, there is the question that I raised

5 earlier of the narration on the video. If Your Honours were to decide to

6 admit this video, we would submit that at the very least, the narration

7 should be excluded because this goes to comments and interpretation made

8 by a third party, and we have no ability to cross-examine that party on

9 what is being said and whether that is indeed true or not. What you hear

10 in the video, that is first-hand from the video itself. And if the video

11 were to be admitted, we would request that only those parts that can be

12 heard directly from the video form part of the evidence, not the

13 narration.

14 There's the song as well which my learned friend mentioned which

15 I'm informed is a song which is sung in the Bosnian language. That would

16 be part of the video in our submission as well.

17 Your Honour, finally, on the point of narration, there is an

18 important translation error that we also wish to bring to Your Honours'

19 attention which goes to the reliability itself of the narration, and that

20 is on page 3 of the English translation where it is stated that a

21 mujahedin Senad Sehic, the winner of the Golden Lily was presented with

22 something by President Izetbegovic. The word "mujahedin" as Your Honours

23 are fully aware has been used extensively in this trial to foreign

24 fighters that come from abroad, and there is a very particular meaning to

25 be associated with that term. When the video is heard in the original

Page 8490

1 Bosnian language and looking at the Bosnian transcript of that, the word

2 mujahedin is not in fact used, but rather the word mujahid is used in the

3 Bosnian language, and that is the way it is recorded on the transcript as

4 well. That is a significant distinction which we do wish to bring to

5 Your Honours' attention and wish to ensure that on the record in the

6 English translation the word "mujahedin" is replaced with "mujahid," a

7 word which in Arabic means something very different to mujahedin,

8 especially in terms of how that word has been used in this trial to date.

9 So itís not an insignificant distinction and one which we do wish to have

10 corrected for the record.

11 Thank you, Your Honours. Those are our submissions in respect of

12 this video.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll give the floor to the

14 Prosecution in a minute. Two particular issues that have been raised, a

15 semantic issue that concerns the translation of the word mujahid. The

16 Defence claims that the translation of mujahid into English should be

17 mujahid, not mujahedin. The second issue raised by the Defence is one

18 that concerned the date when this video was made. There are no

19 indications as to the date. Would the Prosecution like to respond to the

20 comments and questions raised by the Defence? And the Trial Chamber also

21 notes that no date has been indicated.

22 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, first of all, the Prosecution has

23 checked and indeed, as Your Honours have pointed out, the video was

24 submitted by the Defence team in the Kordic and Cerkez case. With regard

25 to the timing of the video, at this point in time, there is no further

Page 8491

1 information, or that no further information can be given. However, there

2 is again the possibility to check the transcripts of the Kordic and Cerkez

3 case, when it was -- when the video was shown there.

4 Thirdly, with regard to the transcript and the specific section

5 pointed out by my learned colleague, Mr. Dixon, in the tab 3, there are

6 two B/C/S versions provided. The English translation and the first B/C/S

7 version provided relate to a transcript produced by the Defence counsels

8 in the Kordic and Cerkez case, Mr. Hunton and Williams. And there is,

9 however, attached a second B/C/S transcript which is at the end of tab 3.

10 And if you look at page 4 of this B/C/S transcript, which is -- nearly at

11 the very end, on the bottom in the large paragraph in line 3, it is indeed

12 as my learned colleague Mr. Dixon has pointed out the word "mujahid" which

13 has been written down here. Toga je mujahid Senad Sehic.

14 Since this transcript was produced by the Prosecution, this -- I

15 agree with the comment made by my learned colleague.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for those

17 explanations. It's almost time for the break. We have one last videotape

18 to view, the fourth one. Could you tell us how much time this will take.

19 MR. NEUNER: The fourth video excerpt is the shortest one. It's 1

20 minute of duration.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It won't take long,

22 then. We'll have our break now, and we will resume at about 5 to 1.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution may now take the

Page 8492

1 floor, and they will now show us the fourth video.

2 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, just some information on this

3 videotape. First, it's -- it has the ERN number -- the excerpt is taken

4 from the video with the ERN number V0002631. And it's on the

5 Prosecution's pre-trial exhibit list as PT1135. It's TV5 broadcast about

6 the fall of Vares to the ABiH. It's in French language. So in divider or

7 tab 8, you find first the French transcript, followed by an English

8 translation and a B/C/S translation.

9 The date of the sequence, Prosecution believes it's from the 6th

10 of November 1993. This is an inference drawn from the text of the

11 speakers since the speaker states at the beginning that 48 hours after the

12 fall of -- 48 hours since Thursday, and we looked in the relevant time

13 period and saw that this Thursday would have been the 4th of November

14 1993, so the Prosecution believes it dates from the 6th of November 1993.

15 The excerpt is relevant to paragraphs 44 and 45 of our indictment. The

16 source -- the author is TV5. The source is the Defence team in the Kordic

17 and Cerkez case. And the duration, I said this already, is 1 minute. It

18 will be shown now.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Since Thursday, the day that Vares

21 was taken by the Muslim forces, no combat has been reported in the area

22 that 48 hours ago used to be one of the last Croatian bastions in Central

23 Bosnia. Meanwhile, other problems emerged. Muslim soldiers started to

24 loot systematically. Swedish and French Blue Helmets are trying to

25 intervene, but their task has become more difficult. The Croats who had

Page 8493

1 escaped the violence of combats refuse to return home. And in spite of

2 the cold, they remain confined in improvised camps. In fact, they all

3 fear retaliation, which would bring bloodshed and violence back to the

4 city."

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we see it again. It only

6 takes one minute.

7 MR. NEUNER: It will be shown again.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Since Thursday, the day that Vares

10 was taken by the Muslim forces, no combat has been reported in the area

11 that 48 hours ago used to be one of the last Croatian bastions in Central

12 Bosnia. Meanwhile, other problems emerged. Muslim soldiers started to

13 loot systematically. Swedish and French Blue Helmets are trying to

14 intervene, but their task has become more difficult. The Croats who had

15 escaped the violence of combats refuse to return home. And in spite of

16 the cold, they remain confined in improvised camps. In fact, they all

17 fear retaliation, which would bring bloodshed and violence back to the

18 city."

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This video, which

20 lasts 1 minute, was broadcast by the Francophone channel TV5. But to the

21 left, it says HRT, which must be the agency or the TV channel that shot

22 the images that were then adopted by TV5. We noted that there were two

23 different sequences, completely different sequences. One concerned the

24 destruction of certain windows, and it is possible to see soldiers who had

25 plastic bags or other objects with them, and we could also see UNPROFOR

Page 8494

1 soldiers who seem to be taking two soldiers out of a shop. And then the

2 second sequence had to do with the Croatian population who were gathered

3 somewhere. We don't know where. And it was said that these people were

4 reluctant to return home. The sequence was very short. It only lasted 1

5 minute. We viewed it twice.

6 What would be the Defence like to state with regard to this

7 extremely short video?

8 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Mr. President, our comments concern the commentary attached to the video.

10 This commentary was made by someone who worked for the TV channel. Was it

11 made by a journalist from TV5 or from TF1, and we saw this inscription at

12 the bottom of the screen, or was it a commentary made by the HRT

13 television channel? And HRT appears to be a television -- a Croatian

14 television channel. Mr. President, we don't know who made the video. And

15 on the basis of the images we saw, we really don't know whether this took

16 place in Vares. Nothing tells us where this was shot. The images we saw

17 at the end -- the village we saw at the end is one that we're not sure of

18 if we don't know which one it is, and the people we saw at the end, we

19 don't know who they are. Are they refugees? Are they Bosniak refugees?

20 Croatian refugees? And finally, there's the question of the date as

21 usual. According to the commentary we have, Thursday was mentioned.

22 That's when Vares was taken. By inference, we could find a date. But in

23 criminal proceedings, in criminal-law proceedings, we can't just base

24 ourselves on inferences in order to find information. So we don't see

25 what the purpose of this video could be. Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 8495

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

2 Mr. Dixon.

3 MR. DIXON: Thank you. As Your Honours have noted, it's a very

4 short video, and very difficult to, in our view, understand what

5 assistance this video could be of to Your Honours in looking at whether or

6 not the paragraphs 44 and 45 which the Prosecution referred to have been

7 proved or have been established. Your Honours, there is from looking at

8 the video no clear indication which soldiers are involved. There is no

9 indication of any insignia. All we have is the commentary that has been

10 given. And as Your Honours know, in our view, the narration should not be

11 included as part of the evidence, as it is not possible in any way to test

12 the veracity what has been said by the commentator. When we look at the

13 images, however, as my learned friend has said, it's not clear exactly

14 where we are and what the time period is. And as Your Honours will be

15 aware, the timing of events in Vares may be very significant when looking

16 at who was responsible for the acts committed there.

17 Our main point, Your Honours, is it's impossible to indicate from

18 the video who was involved in any of these acts and how widespread these

19 acts were. We see one or two, but we do not see what is happening in

20 other parts. And therefore we are of the view that it can be of very

21 limited assistance to Your Honours and it should not be admitted for that

22 reason. Thank you, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Would the

24 Prosecution like to respond to the comments made by Defence counsel?

25 MR. NEUNER: Thank you, Your Honours. I've four short

Page 8496

1 observations. First of all, I omitted that in the Kordic and Cerkez case,

2 the witness Kresimir Bozic has said something with regard to this

3 videotape. I just checked the IIF, the information sheet, which is

4 provided in our system, and found the name of the witness Kresimir Bozic.

5 Secondly, with regard to the display of the symbols from TV5 and HRT, they

6 are both displayed on the video. The Prosecution believes it's quite

7 clear that this is TV5 author of this video, first of all, because the

8 commentary is in French. Secondly, there is on the bottom of this

9 1-minute sequence always the French transcript, so to speak, displayed.

10 And on the sequence just played, the Croat version is, so to speak, taken

11 over the French transcript. So in the Prosecution's opinion, it's quite

12 clear that the originator is TV5.

13 With regard to the soldiers mentioned, indeed the insignia are not

14 clearly visible. But together with the text, if I can just cite line 5 of

15 the French transcript: "les soldats musulmans se livrent a des pillages

16 systematiques."

17 The text read by the commentator appears to point clearly to the

18 fact that Muslim soldiers have engaged in the looting. These are the

19 Prosecution's observations.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Both parties have

21 expressed their positions on the videotape. The Trial Chamber believes

22 that we have seen the four videos that you wanted to show today. As we

23 have another half an hour, could you tell us what our schedule for

24 tomorrow will be. Could you tell us about the videos that will be seen.

25 Could you tell us about how long it will take to view each video, and

Page 8497

1 could you inform of the dividers that correspond to these videos. That

2 will enable us to prepare the hearing tomorrow.

3 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, tomorrow, we will continue with the

4 next block. Block 1 is finished. And tomorrow it's the so-called

5 mujahedin block starting with the first video V0003764, which is 1 hour

6 and 53 minutes in length. At the beginning of each binder, there is the

7 index of transcript and translation I just showed around again. And the

8 video ERNs are contained in the first column, and they basically

9 correspond with the second spreadsheet which has been distributed

10 yesterday. So, for example, the first sequence of the second block,

11 V0003764 can, according to the index of transcripts, be found under tab 1.

12 And the second sequence taken from V0002401 can be found in -- under tab

13 19.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So as far as the video is

15 concerned, and it is V0003764, that is the number that you have just given

16 us. And then we refer to the sections 1 and 19. And how long do you

17 think the video will take?

18 MR. NEUNER: This video V0003764 should be shown in its entirety,

19 which is 113 minutes. So I expect that at some point during the video, a

20 technical break will be made.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I've understood

22 you correctly, tomorrow we only have that one videotape, 113 minutes, or

23 rather two hours, give or take. And the pauses. Is that right? Just

24 that one tape?

25 MR. NEUNER: It is certainly possible to continue with the other

Page 8498

1 videos mentioned in block 2. I just started explaining the first

2 sequence. In this block, as I can see from the spreadsheet here, there

3 are at this moment at least four sequences. If time allows, it might be

4 even possible to move to the third block, though I'm not expecting it.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now before I give

6 the floor to the Defence counsel, we have just been informed that tomorrow

7 we're first going to see the video which will last 113 minutes. And it is

8 possible to go on to block 2 later on with four sequences. So that is the

9 programme for tomorrow.

10 Now, at this stage, Mr. Bourgon, would you like to say anything?

11 Mr. Bourgon, no comment?

12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] No, none, Mr. President. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon, no comment? Thank

14 you.

15 So we shall be resuming tomorrow as we did today. That is to say,

16 the Prosecution will tell us all about the tapes, the source, the origin,

17 the duration and so on and so forth. And the Defence teams will put

18 forward their points of view, after which we will view the tape itself. I

19 will sum up what the three Judges were able to observe by looking at the

20 video, and then I shall be giving the floor to both parties to give us

21 their observations. And then the Prosecution will be able to re-examine

22 or take the floor again. So I think what seemed a very complex task seems

23 to be going very quickly thanks to the suggestions made by both parties.

24 Mr. Mundis, you have the floor.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. There is, of course, the

Page 8499

1 matter that I raised first thing this morning with respect to the material

2 that the Trial Chamber has ordered us to produce by today. Perhaps if the

3 Chamber has yet to consider that matter, we would then respectfully

4 request that the time frame for providing that material perhaps be

5 expanded until we get the guidance that we sought from the Chamber.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. We did say that

7 after the break we would give you our opinions, state our decision, and

8 this will be tomorrow morning having considered the matter. So tomorrow

9 morning, when we reconvene, we will give our instructions and guidelines

10 in the form of an oral decision. So this will give us time to give you

11 precise instructions. But we shall have to confer, the Judges amongst

12 themselves, so we will be rendering our decision tomorrow.

13 Are there any further points? Anything else that anybody would

14 like to say? We still have a few minutes. Nobody? Then I thank you all

15 for having contributed to our work today and the screening of the four

16 videotapes, of course. Everything passed very well. We'll continue, we

17 hope, in the same vein tomorrow morning. So we reconvene tomorrow morning

18 at 9.00.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.23 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of June,

21 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

22

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24

25