1 Friday, 5 November 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, could we have the
10 appearances, please.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
12 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the
13 Prosecution, Mathias Neuner, Daryl Mundis, and Andres Vatter, the case
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have the
16 appearances for Defence counsel.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President, good
18 morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina
19 Residovic; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Muriel Cauvin, our legal
20 assistant. Thank you.
21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
22 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, Rodney Dixon, and Nermin
23 Mulalic, our legal assistant.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to greet everyone
25 present, the Prosecution, Defence Counsel, the accused, and everyone else
1 in the courtroom. We have two witnesses scheduled for today. Let's hope
2 that we'll be able to conclude their testimony today. Otherwise, the
3 second witness will have to stay until next Monday. This is a
4 possibility that I exclude a priori, but one never knows.
5 When a party shows a document the witness, we have noticed that
6 the other party tends to object if they do not see what the relation
7 between the witness and the document is. If there is no link, in fact,
8 that could be problematic. But the party that wants to proceed in this
9 manner, they should at least show that there is an indirect link, if
10 there isn't a direct one. And if so, they should ask the Trial Chamber
11 to grant them leave to ask the question. Otherwise, we'll waste a lot of
13 As you know, the Trial Chamber has always been fairly liberal and
14 has -- when a question is put, we don't know what the purpose of the
15 question might be. It might seem that the question doesn't make sense in
16 relation to the document, but given the questions that follow, we might
17 see the connection. This is why if an objection is made at the beginning
18 of a question, we might later realise that the objection is groundless.
19 But I would like to ask the parties to inform the Chamber of their
20 intention to ask a question if the question is indirectly linked to a
21 document. They should then explain why they want to ask the question.
22 They should ask for leave, and we'll proceed in this manner. Otherwise,
23 we'll waste a lot of time. I wanted to inform you of this to ensure that
24 we can proceed as best as possible.
25 With regard to Monday, the 15th of November, if the witnesses and
1 the accused do not wish to be present here, then in such a case, it would
2 be appropriate to say that there will no hearing on Monday, the 15th.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for what
4 you have just informed us of. I would like to inform the Chamber that
5 the Defence counsel has witnesses for Monday and for the other days of
6 the week. But in accordance with the rights of the accused, we would
7 like you to make the final decision as to whether we will be working on
8 Monday. This will ensure that their rights are respected.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But as I said, on Monday, the
10 16th -- correction, 15th of November, there won't be a hearing. There
11 won't be a hearing on Monday, the 15th of November. Defence counsel may
12 rest assured.
13 Could the usher now call the witness into the courtroom, please.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. Could you tell
16 me whether you're receiving interpretation of what I'm saying. If so,
17 please say yes.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you. Could the
19 volume be put down a bit.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The usher will do
21 that for you, the usher who is standing next to you.
22 So before you testify here, and before you take the solemn
23 declaration, could you please give me your first and last names, your
24 date of birth, and your place of birth.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Haris Jusic. I was born
1 on the 24th of March 1958 in the village of Pode in Travnik Municipality.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. What is your
3 current profession?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work in the pension insurance
5 company at the moment.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993, did you hold
7 a position, a military or civilian position? And if so, what kind of
8 position did you hold?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until the end of 1992, I was
10 employed in a civilian company.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in 1993?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in 1993, when I was no longer
13 able to work, I became a member of the BH Army.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What rank did you have? What
15 were your duties? And which brigade were you in?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I worked in the brigade. I
17 was involved in legal matters. I was an officer in the security organ of
18 the 306th Mountain Brigade.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified
20 before an international or a national court about the events that took
21 place in your country in 1992 and 1993, or is this the first time?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could you please
24 read out the text of the solemn declaration.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
3 Before Defence commences its examination-in-chief, which will
4 last for about an hour, I would like to provide you with some
5 information. You have just taken the solemn declaration and said that
6 you will speak the truth, which means that you shouldn't give false
7 testimony which is punishable. Secondly, you should be aware that when
8 answering questions, the information you provide cannot subsequently be
9 used against you. The Rules grant you a form of immunity when
11 The questions might appear complicated. If you don't understand
12 a question, ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it. If the
13 Judges before you don't have any written documents, we don't know who you
14 are, what you may have done or what you may have seen. It is what you
15 say when answering the questions that will inform us. That's why your
16 questions are so important. In addition, you might be shown documents
17 and asked about these documents by the parties examining you. So don't
18 be surprised if you are asked to read a document and comment on it.
19 The three Judges before you may at any point in time ask you
20 questions, too. As a rule, the Judges prefer to wait for the parties to
21 conclude their examination, but in certain circumstances we may intervene
22 and ask you some questions. Roughly speaking, this is how we will be
24 As we don't have much time today, since there is a second witness
25 who will be following you, I will give the floor to the Defence
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13 French transcripts correspond
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 WITNESS: HARIS JUSIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examined by Ms. Residovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jusic.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. In addition to the explanations provided to you by the President
9 of the Trial Chamber, Mr. Jusic, I would like to ask you to make a break
10 between my question and your answer. We both speak the same language,
11 and my question needs to be translated for the Trial Chamber and all the
12 others present in the courtroom. Are you clear on that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where did you reside at the beginning of the war in April 1992?
15 A. In April 1992, I resided in the village of Pode, Travnik
17 Q. You said that you worked in a civilian company. Can you please
18 give us the name of that company and where was it based.
19 A. It was the Sebesic timber company based in Travnik, and my
20 workplace was in the sawmill in Nova Bila.
21 Q. Mr. Jusic, what are you by profession and where did you acquire
22 your education?
23 A. I have a degree in law, and I graduated from the school of law in
25 Q. Before the war, did you serve in the army? Which army did you
1 serve in and if you did serve, what rank did you obtain?
2 A. Yes. Before the war, I served in the former Yugoslav People's
3 Army. I was a foot soldier there. I did not have a rank.
4 Q. To the question put to you by the President of the Trial Chamber,
5 you've told us that once you could no longer work you joined the ranks of
6 the BiH Army, and that you became a member of the 306th Brigade. Tell
7 me, please, what position did you hold? What tasks and duties did you
8 have in that brigade?
9 A. Yes. I said that my company was based in Nova Bila. Nova Bila
10 is a Croatian village in the vicinity of Travnik. Since the
11 relationships deteriorated towards the end of 1992 between Muslims and
12 Croats, my then director told me that it would be best for me not to come
13 for work because he could not guarantee my safety. I felt that myself,
14 and I acted accordingly. I was sent home to wait. And since I resided
15 in my village in 1992, I was in my native village. And as far as I know,
16 the 306th Brigade was established towards the end of 1992. And obviously
17 as a citizen, I was duty-bound to join that brigade.
18 Q. Mr. Jusic, where was the command of your brigade? Where did you
19 perform your duties as the official in that brigade?
20 A. The brigade command was in the administrative building of the
21 coal mine in Bila. And up to the armed conflicts between the BiH Army
22 and the HVO, every day I would go to work to that administrative building
23 that belonged to the coal mine, save for the days on which I was sent
24 somewhere else to perform tasks.
25 Q. What were your main tasks and duties as a legal officer in that
1 security body?
2 A. Given my professional degree, I mostly performed the so-called
3 administrative tasks. I would draft documents that were necessary.
4 Those were purely legal tasks. I would be in charge of drafting some
5 legal enactments, as necessary.
6 Q. Since your village -- no, let me rephrase that. What is the name
7 of the general area in which your village, Pode, is situated? Or the
8 place called coal mine where you performed your tasks?
9 A. The entire area is known as the Bila region or the region of the
10 Bila River. There is a little river there, its name is Bila. And that
11 river gave the name to the entire area encompassing all the villages on
12 both banks of that little river.
13 Q. Thank you. At that time, at the beginning of 1993 when you
14 started performing your duties in the 306th Brigade, did you notice some
15 foreigners from African and Asian countries appearing in the Bila region?
16 A. I told you that I could no longer work and I had to do something.
17 It was my civic duty. And that's how I started working in my brigade.
18 At that time, when I started working in my brigade, I didn't know
19 anything about these people of Asian origin. However, I would come
20 across them. I would see them from time to time.
21 Q. Did you personally know where these people came from? And since
22 you saw them, can you tell the Trial Chamber what they looked like.
23 A. I didn't know anything about them. I did see them. They were a
24 bit unusual. They had a different skin colour. Their skin was somewhat
25 darker. They minded their own business. I did not come into any contact
1 with them, either at that time or later, up to this very day.
2 Q. Are you aware of the name that people started calling them at one
3 point in time?
4 A. Yes. The popular name that people gave them was the mujahedin.
5 Q. You are a lawyer, and as you've already told us, you were in
6 charge of legal affairs. Before the war, did you know anything about who
7 the mujahedin are and what is the meaning of that word?
8 A. One might say that I didn't know anything about the mujahedin. I
9 might have heard something on TV or on the TV news. I might have heard
10 the name mentioned, but I didn't understand the concept.
11 Q. Although you have never had any contacts with these people and
12 you didn't know anything about them before that, did you ever at that
13 time or later on think about the reason for which these foreigners might
14 have arrived in the Bila region and in the area around Travnik?
15 A. Yes. As a human being, I did think about that in the situation
16 when the security deteriorated, and everybody had to look after
17 themselves and their own life and safety. All of a sudden, people of a
18 different skin colour came there, and I did not have a proper explanation
19 for that, why this was happening.
20 Q. Thank you. At any point in time, did you learn about the
21 whereabouts of these people, where they were billeted?
22 A. At the beginning, I didn't know where they were billeted. I
23 wasn't interested in that. However, as I was a member of the brigade
24 throughout the entire 1993 up to the mid-1994, I did learn where they
25 were located, where they were accommodated.
1 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where they stayed, where their
2 camp was.
3 A. In my area, in the Bila region, they were accommodated in
4 Poljanice village in the abandoned Serbian houses.
5 Q. Up to June while performing your duties, did you ever go to the
6 village of Mehurici? And if you did go there, where did you go? Did you
7 ever visit the school in Mehurici?
8 A. Mehurici is not far from my village, the village where I was
9 born. And it is not far from the place where the administrative building
10 of the coal mine is. However, I didn't go to Mehurici, save for maybe on
11 one or two occasions during the sixth time -- six-month period from the
12 beginning of 1993 up to June 1993.
13 I remember that I did go once. I didn't visit the school. I
14 know that for a fact. On one occasion, I visited my colleague, the
15 security officer of the 1st Battalion. He was accommodated in the house
16 belonging to Ferid Jasarevic. This man had left the area in 1991 and
17 moved to Austria together with his family. His house was therefore
18 abandoned. It was rather big, and this is where the offices of my
19 colleague from the 1st Battalion were. This building is at the very
20 entrance to the village of Mehurici. I didn't go up to the school, but I
21 know exactly where the school is.
22 Q. At that time, Mr. Jusic, did you know of any battalion of the
23 306th that was billeted in the school? If there was such a battalion,
24 could you tell us which battalion it was.
25 A. I was not well informed of any of those things. However, I can
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 say that all of these buildings that were not privately owned, all the
2 schools, and there were quite a few of them in the Bila region, were used
3 either for the accommodation of refugees or for the accommodation of
4 military formations.
5 Q. While you were visiting your colleague, the security officer, in
6 Mehurici or on any other occasion, did you learn whether members of the
7 army or anybody else could freely enter the camp of the foreigners in
9 A. At that time, I did not discuss these people. At that time, they
10 were not important. They were not a topic of our discussion. At that
11 time, I did not even know exactly where they were located. This was
12 prior to the conflict. So we did not discuss them. I don't even know
13 whether at that time they were there or not. Maybe they were somewhere
14 else, but I wouldn't know that.
15 Q. In the first half of 1993, at the time when you joined the 306th
16 Brigade, did you learn from any of the conversations in the command or
17 other people that these foreigners were trying to get closer to the local
18 population, or did you maybe learn about some problems involving these
20 A. I've already said that I was never in any contact with these
21 people. I was never close to them. However, in my conversations with my
22 colleagues and other people, I did hear that these foreigners were trying
23 to get closer to the local population, that they offered them certain
24 things. I must say that the conditions that they offered them were much
25 better than the ones that the army could provide for these people. Some
1 locals finally did get in touch with them and cooperated with them, so to
3 Q. Mr. Jusic, please tell me, in the area where your command was and
4 where members of your brigade were, were there any other military
5 formations there which did not belong to the BiH Army?
6 A. Yes. Up to the moment when the conflict broke out between the
7 BiH Army and the HVO, in that area there were also members of the HVO.
8 They were in their own villages, and the villages were either
9 mixed - that is to say, the houses were mixed, they were close to each
10 other - or they were in their own villages. Up to the moment when the
11 conflict broke out, members of the HVO were in their houses. They moved
12 about. I didn't know much about their movements. However, up to the
13 moment the conflict broke out, they were there.
14 Q. At any point in time, Mr. Jusic, were there any incidents
15 involving the BiH Army and the HVO in that area? What was the freedom of
16 movement like? Did you witness any of those situations?
17 A. Unfortunately, there were quite a number of incidents. Towards
18 the end of 1992, I could no longer go to work, to the company that I used
19 to work for. My director, who was a Croat, told me that my security was
20 jeopardised, that my safety could not be guaranteed because the HVO had
21 put up a check -- checkpoints on all the three exits from the Bila
22 region. On the road towards Zenica, there was a checkpoint on Ovnak. It
23 was manned by quite a few armed members of the HVO. At the beginning,
24 these people just stood there. Then they started checking papers, and
25 then finally they started prohibiting every movement. The same situation
1 existed in Zabilje on the way to Vitez, and the same situation existed on
2 the road to Travnik in Guca Gora. That means that the Muslim/Bosniak
3 population was completely blocked. At the beginning, we could move
4 around and travel, and after that, buses were forbidden passage. Private
5 vehicles could still move about. And then on the eve of the conflict,
6 nobody could exit the area.
7 In addition to this region being blocked in that way, it was
8 intersected by Croatian villages that we didn't dare go into unless we
9 had to. If we could avoid entering Croatian villages, we did that rather
10 than get involved in incidents. Before the conflict, people would get
11 killed in their fields, on the roads.
12 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Jusic. I believe that you have
13 described the situation pretty well. We've had other witnesses who have
14 described the situation for us. I asked you whether you personally
15 witnessed any ill treatment. Were you personally ill treated as a member
16 of the command of the 306th Brigade?
17 A. Yes. Unfortunately this happened to me, too, in mid-May 1993.
18 As I have already said, our command was in the administration building of
19 the mine. Every evening we would return home, apart from those who
20 couldn't do so because of their duties. A van transported us from the
21 mine to Mehurici, brought us back in the evening. And in the morning, we
22 would go to the command again in the same van. In mid-May 1993, on the
23 14th or 15th, as far as I can remember --
24 Q. Could you please speak up, Mr. Jusic, please.
25 A. In mid-May 1993, on the 14th or 15th, I can't remember the exact
1 date, we went off in the same van that we used to return to our homes
2 with. And in the immediate vicinity of the command, the exit from a
3 Croatian place called Baje, we were intercepted by a passenger vehicle, a
4 private vehicle in which there were four HVO members who were fully
5 armed. They forced us out of the van, and there was also a small TAM
6 lorry which was privately owned. And the brigade members and the driver
7 of that lorry were arrested, imprisoned at the same time. They forced us
8 to lie down on our stomachs on the grass, and they cursed us and insulted
9 us. They used the most insulting terms, the ugliest terms. And they
10 took all our clothes, all the new clothes that we were wearing. They
11 even took the shoes off one of our men. And the worst thing was that
12 there was a man behind us who was cursing us, and he was pointing his
13 rifle at us, which was loaded. This is what frightened us the most. The
14 feeling I had at the time was terrible.
15 Luckily, this did not last very long. It lasted as long as the
16 four of them needed to take our things. As I said, to take all our
17 clothes, which were new, to take the TAM lorry, and to take our van.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jusic. Where were you on the 8th of June 1993?
19 A. On the 8th of June 1993, I was in my village, in my house, in the
20 house I was living in at the time.
21 Q. Did you hear that there were any large-scale armed conflicts in
22 the Bila Valley?
23 A. About a week before the armed clashes, I was sent to a forward
24 command post on Vlasic. So for the last week, I was not in the Bila area
25 because this position on Mount Vlasic is at least 20 kilometres away from
1 the nearest village. When I returned, and this is why I was in my
2 village, when I returned -- well, when one left the forward command post,
3 one would go home and have a bit of a rest, have a bath and so on.
4 That's why I was in the village then, and I had no duties at any time. I
5 was practically on leave.
6 Q. Mr. Jusic, did you ever leave the village after the 8th, and did
7 anyone give you a task of any kind?
8 A. A couple of days later, when the armed conflict calmed down and
9 when I thought that I could go to the place where I was supposed to work
10 safely, I then went to this workplace because in the meantime I had heard
11 that the command was no longer in one place after the armed conflict had
12 broken out. I found out that I was to go to Mehurici. I found out that
13 there was work for me in Mehurici. So I reported to work in the village
14 of Mehurici. I went to the school there.
15 Q. What sort of task were you assigned at the time?
16 A. My task was to take statements from the local people, imprisoned
17 Croats who were accommodated in the Mehurici school.
18 Q. Who did you, in fact, interview? Were there any criteria that
19 were followed when interviewing people? Were you to interview everyone
20 there, or was your task to interview certain people?
21 A. My task was to take statements from the people who were there.
22 They could have been military conscripts. The criteria that was to be
23 followed was that we were to interview people who were between 20 and 60
24 years of age, the Croatian people who were there, women, children, and if
25 there were any old people there were not interviewed by me [as
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13 French transcripts correspond
2 Q. How many people did you take statements from when carrying out
3 this task?
4 A. Well, I don't know the exact number. But about 30 people, give
5 or take a few.
6 Q. Where did you take these statements?
7 A. I did this in an office which was in the same school. And the
8 people were kept in the hall.
9 Q. What did you ask these people about?
10 A. Well, I asked them about matters that might generally interest
11 the military. I asked them whether they were HVO members; if they were,
12 I asked them which brigade they had been in, who their commander was. If
13 they knew, I would write this down, but on the whole they didn't know. I
14 also asked them about the weapons they had, but I didn't obtain any
15 important information about these things.
16 But I obtained important information about whether they knew
17 where mines had been laid and unexploded devices at positions around
18 their villages. And on that occasion, we found out certain information.
19 We removed a significant number of those mines and unexploded devices. I
20 saw a small tractor. It was full of such devices. And that was the
21 first time I saw explosives packed in a form that resembled salami.
22 Q. Mr. Jusic, tell me whether you knew those people, or at least
23 some of them, since they were neighbours of yours?
24 A. Yes. That's what hurt me the most. I knew most of those people.
25 We had lived together, went to school together, used the same buses,
1 worked in the same clinics, in the same factories. There had never been
2 any problems among us. Now, all of a sudden, I was on one side; they
3 were on another. This affected me as a man, but I performed my duties.
4 Q. Mr. Jusic, tell me, how did you interview them? When
5 interviewing these people, were they threatened or was force used? Or
6 did you obtain the information you have just mentioned in any particular
8 A. I can't say whether anyone used force when interviewing these
9 people before I appeared. But when I interviewed these people, I did not
10 use force. And as I have said, they were neighbours of mine with whom I
11 had lived and with whom I had been on extremely good terms.
12 Q. If I have understood you correctly, you spoke to them and treated
13 them as people you knew well. You treated them as your neighbours and
14 friends. Is that what you're saying?
15 A. Yes, that's exactly what I am saying.
16 Q. Could you tell me, please, how long you were involved in these
17 interviews; when did you finish with this work of yours?
18 A. Well, perhaps for five to seven days.
19 Q. Do you know whether at that time anyone from the Red Cross came
20 or anyone from international organisations? And were any objections
21 raised about the way in which these people were treated?
22 A. I didn't have any contact with such persons, but I do know that
23 people from international humanitarian organisations came. And as far as
24 I know, there were no objections concerning the accommodation and the
25 conditions those people were in.
1 Q. Who took care of food and accommodation? Who took care of the
2 security of those people while you were there?
3 A. When I arrived there, security was provided by the civilian
4 police, whereas food, as far as I know, was provided by the civilian
5 protection. They ate the same food that we did.
6 Q. In the course of the interviews that you conducted, did any of
7 the people you interviewed complain about maltreatment, or were you able
8 to observe traces of physical maltreatment on them?
9 A. I'm not aware of such cases. None of them informed me of such
10 cases. But believe me, I would have taken measures if I had had
11 information about such incidents.
12 Q. Tell me, as far as you knew, did those people have adequate
13 medical treatment? Were they provided with adequate medical treatment?
14 A. As far as medical treatment is concerned, I think it was
15 adequate. And quite by chance, their doctor was with them. If I'm not
16 mistaken, her name was (redacted). She was with them in the immediate
17 vicinity. She was given an office which was part of the hall they were
18 kept in. I have been to that office. I've seen (redacted) there. I could
19 see that she had medicine, medical supplies. I was present when she was
20 giving them instructions of some kind. I think she was telling them to
21 drink more liquid, et cetera. So I think that the medical treatment they
22 were provided with was adequate.
23 Q. Mr. Jusic, when performing your duties did you ever find out why
24 those people had been taken to that gym and why they were kept in the gym
25 in the primary school?
1 A. Well, I could mention two main reasons for which the people had
2 been taken from their homes and placed in the gym. The first reason is
3 that the HVO had attacked the Velika Bukovica village. That was before
4 the 8th of June. It was on the 4th or 5th of June. And all the Muslim
5 and Bosniak population from that village, 87 of them, were taken first to
6 Nova Bila and then to Busovaca. And they were taken away as prisoners.
7 So that's the first reason for which people of Croatian nationality were
8 gathered in one place. The main reason was to proceed with an exchange
9 when the conditions were right.
10 The second reason, which for me is more important than the first
11 one, the second reason is that if people had remained in their houses, in
12 such a case, there could have been incidents of various kinds. People
13 could have been killed by various individuals for various reasons. And
14 also because of the presence of the mujahedin themselves, who were in
15 such a state at the time that even we, the local population, were a
16 little frightened of them.
17 Q. Thank you very much. You have now mentioned the reasons. But I
18 would like to know where you went after you had finished interviewing
19 those 30 people. Were you assigned any other tasks?
20 A. When this job was completed, I was sent to join the main body of
21 the command which was in Krpeljici. I would call it a main body of the
22 command because up there, I found the commander. This is where I was
23 sent to work.
24 Q. Now, can you please tell me whether you took any statements from
25 anybody up there and who these people were.
1 A. Yes. They were Croats up there as well. They were also
2 accommodated in two different places. There was a building which we
3 called the youth centre, and this is where they were accommodated, but
4 not as many of them as in Mehurici. And there was also another house
5 where they were because they could not all fit in one building. This
6 second house was of a smaller size. So these people were accommodated in
7 a Croatian house. I can't remember who the owner of that house was.
8 Q. Mr. Jusic, did there come a time when you started taking
9 statements from Bosniaks as well? And when you started doing that, were
10 statements taken under the same conditions, or did you treat people
12 A. I was taking statements from ones and the others, and therefore I
13 can confirm this and say that I took statements from Bosniaks whose
14 families had been taken to Busovaca. When the exchange finally took
15 place, I took statements from those who returned from those places where
16 the HVO had kept them.
17 Q. Mr. Jusic, did you personally ever get involved in the -- in any
18 of the exchanges? Were you ever consulted on any of the exchanges?
19 A. I was never involved in an exchange. I never had any contacts
20 from anybody from the international organisations regarding exchanges. I
21 didn't have contacts with people from the international organisation on
22 any of the issues. I was an official in the brigade, and I did what my
23 superiors told me to do.
24 Q. You continued working in the 306th in the security body, and
25 according to some information, after the combat operations, there was
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 plundering and burning buildings in the general area. Did you have any
2 information about these incidents? Do you know who the perpetrators
3 were? Did you in the security body undertake any measures against the
5 A. Unfortunately, there were such situations, and there was plunder.
6 Houses were set on fire. We did take measures against members of our own
8 Q. What measures were those?
9 A. The commander would order people to be remanded in custody. When
10 we discovered perpetrators, we would take statements and so on and so
12 Q. Although you are a lawyer by profession, before you did these
13 things, were you ever involved in criminal investigation or any similar
15 A. No. I was never involved in any military or police business or
16 law enforcement business. When I joined the army, I was given this job
17 because of my degree, because of my profession. I don't know whether I
18 was successful or not, but I do think that I did well.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like the
20 witness to be shown a few documents. I would kindly ask Madam Usher to
21 give the documents to the witness, and this would bring my
22 examination-in-chief to an end.
23 Q. Mr. Jusic, can you please look at this document bearing number
24 1444. Do you recognise this document?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Who was it signed by?
2 A. I'm the one who signed this document.
3 Q. Is this one of the documents that testify to the fact that you
4 remanded in custody members of your brigade for whom it had been
5 established that they were involved in theft?
6 A. Yes, this is precisely so.
7 Q. Can you please look at the following document, 1448. Is this
8 also one of your documents that you drafted?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is this one of the ways in which you dealt with the perpetrators
11 of criminal acts? Is this how you informed the competent prosecutor's
12 office of the crime?
13 A. Yes. First, the military police would carry out investigation,
14 collect information, and then they would inform me. I would process this
15 information. And whenever there were elements for criminal report, I
16 would draft a criminal report. The person would be remanded in custody.
17 This was a situation in which people from Krpeljici had to be escorted to
18 Travnik. It would not be usual for me to sign this. It would be my
19 commander or assistant commander who signed such documents. However, if
20 they were not present and something had to be done, I was the one who
21 signed these documents.
22 Q. Mr. Jusic, you said you have a degree in law, and you were in
23 charge of legal affairs. Was there anybody else in your legal body who
24 had any legal knowledge or knowledge of the police work, the security
1 A. I can say that none of us had the necessary knowledge and
2 experience to perform these duties. As far as I know, in the body that I
3 worked in, nobody had that experience. Only one person had been a member
4 of the military police as far as I remember. The rest of us were
5 amateurs, laymen.
6 Q. In the brigade or in the army, was there any training of soldiers
7 and officers? Were you aware of any training organised for soldiers and
9 A. Yes, I am aware of some training because people became members of
10 the brigade and its bodies without ever having dreamt of having to do
11 that. However, the situation was as it was. We had to do things, and I
12 know that measures were being taken by the superior commands to organise
13 courses and training in order to teach people how to perform duties.
14 Q. Can you please look at Document 1455. That's document number 3.
15 Can you please look at it and tell me whether this was one of the ways of
16 organising education for the staff members ranging from company further
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. When you discovered perpetrators, you would take disciplinary
20 measures or you would file a criminal report. Did you have any
21 difficulties when you wanted to find out who the perpetrators were, and
22 what was the cause of those difficulties?
23 A. We met with all sorts of difficulties. Nothing was simple in our
24 work. From the simplest things -- for example, there was no paper, there
25 was nothing to write on or with. We didn't have petrol, so we could not
1 drive to the place where the crime was committed. We didn't have
2 personnel that would provide security if that was necessary. We met with
3 all sorts of problems. And in such an impossible situation, we did to
4 the best of our abilities in order to prevent all sorts of crime. The
5 situation was impossible; however, we worked to the best of our abilities
6 in order to elucidate crimes, discover perpetrators, and punish them.
7 Q. Were there cases of impersonation or groups appearing without any
8 documents whose identity could not be established? If there were such
9 cases, did you take any measures against those people?
10 A. There were all sorts of cases. Our mission was impossible. For
11 example, after having performed their shifts, people did not go back to
12 the barracks. They went back to their homes. So they would spend some
13 time on the lines performing military duties and after their shift, they
14 would be free for up to seven days. For example, they would spend seven
15 days on the line and seven days at home on leave. And during those
16 periods where they were on leave, these people would move about. They
17 would do all sorts of things. We tried to prevent that as much as we
19 Q. Can you please look at Document Number 1456. This is a document
20 sent by the 3rd Corps to the assistants for security of all the brigade.
21 Since you were a member of the security of your brigade, were you aware
22 of these measures that were suggested or ordered by this document of the
23 3rd Corps?
24 A. I am aware of these cases, and such cases. That's why the
25 document of this nature was sent, in order to prevent such cases. For
1 example, a person is a member of a unit and gets this unit's ID number.
2 And then for various reasons - for example, their families would want to
3 move - we had a lot of refugees and displaced persons who moved quite a
4 lot within the territory of one municipality or several municipalities.
5 For example, we had people from Karaula. It's a village in Travnik
6 Municipality. They settled in the Bila region. They were members of the
7 306th Brigade, and then they left. But they continued wearing the
8 uniform and the ID card of their former brigade, the 312th Brigade. And
9 this brought all sorts of different situations.
10 Q. Mr. Jusic, could you please look at Document Number 5 and tell me
11 whether you are familiar with this document, first of all.
12 A. Yes, I am. I've already said something about the contents of
13 this document. This document was drafted at the moment when civilians,
14 women, children, and elderly from Velika Bukovica, a village which was
15 the first one to be attacked in the Bila region, returned from the
16 detention in Busovaca.
17 Q. This document speaks to treatment they were exposed to. People
18 whom you interviewed in Mehurici school, did they ever tell you about
19 being treated by BiH Army members in an appropriate way [sic]?
20 A. These people never told me that. And I wish to claim that they
21 were never treated in this way.
22 Q. And finally, Mr. Jusic, you've told us that it was the military
23 police that provided security for these people in the Mehurici school.
24 You were a member of the 306th Brigade. Can you tell me something about
25 the authorities? Were you authorised and have control over the army, the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 military police, or civilian police?
2 A. Are you referring to the measures that we took? The civilian
3 police was authorised to have control over the civilians, and we were
4 authorised to have control only over the army.
5 Q. Were ever the mujahedin under the control of the 306th Brigade?
6 Did you ever any authority over them?
7 A. At the beginning, I said that I never had contact of any kind
8 with the mujahedin. And if they had been members of our brigade, I would
9 have had contact with them. Without doubt.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] There is a mistake in the
11 translation of my question. It's page 25, line 18. I said at the end
12 "Mr. Jusic," -- I said "finally, Mr. Jusic, you said that the civilian
13 police provided security," whereas it says "the military police provided
14 security" in the transcript. So could this be corrected, please.
15 Thank you, Mr. Jusic, I have no more questions. Thank you, Mr.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
19 We only have a few questions for Mr. Jusic.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusic, you were born in the village of Pode
22 in the Bila Valley; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, it's the village of Pode, whereas Podovi is a Croatian
24 village in vicinity. It in fact is the same thing. My village is
25 officially called Pode, but some maps in land registries it's referred to
1 as Podovi, but in fact the village is Pode.
2 Q. In 1993, you were a member of the 306th Brigade and you worked in
3 that brigade as a lawyer.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. As a lawyer, a member of the 306th Brigade, since you spent 1993
6 in that area, I assume that you know whether there were any other BH Army
7 units that had been organised in the Bila Valley.
8 A. Yes. In addition to the 306th Brigade, there were -- or rather,
9 there was another brigade, the 314th Brigade. And I have said that there
10 were also HVO units.
11 Q. If I say that in 1993, especially in the spring and summer of
12 1993, in the region of Mehurici and in the region of the other villages
13 and in the Bila Valley, there were no units and no 7th Brigade Battalion,
14 you would agree with me, wouldn't you?
15 A. As far as I know, the 7th Muslim Brigade was never in that area.
16 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have another 10 minutes
18 before the break. I'll give the floor to the Prosecution now.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Neuner:
20 MR. NEUNER: Good morning, Mr. Jusic. My name is Mathias Neuner,
21 and I am representing the Prosecution here. I will put a few questions
22 to you now, and then we will have a break in a few minutes.
23 Your Honour, I will propose I put a few questions about the
24 documents now, and then take an early break. This will take only 2 or 3
1 Q. If you look, please, at Document Number 1, again, Mr. Jusic, and
2 look under the heading "Reason." Is it fair to say that this decision
3 which you have in front of you relates to crime committed against the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If you turn now to please Document Number 2 in front of you.
7 Please look at page 1, number 6. And there it states, inter alia, "all
8 members of the 1st Battalion of the 325 Mountain Brigade." So the
9 perpetrators, and that's a question actually, the perpetrators were all
10 ABiH members?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And I have another question for you: If you please look in this
13 document now under the heading "Statement of Reasons." Do you find this?
14 A. I have.
15 Q. Did the perpetrators use a van belonging to the ABiH to commit
16 their crime?
17 A. That's what it says here, that they did.
18 Q. And the crime itself, was it committed in Guca Gora?
19 A. It was.
20 Q. And the date of the crime, this was September 1993; is this
22 A. Just a minute. Let me find the date. Yes.
23 MR. NEUNER: Your Honour, with your permission, I would ask to go
24 for an early break, and I would continue with my questioning thereafter.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's now 10.26. We'll resume
1 at 5 to 11.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may take the floor.
5 MR. NEUNER:
6 Q. Mr. Jusic, I want to continue where I just left you before the
7 break. I showed you a document about Guca Gora.
8 MR. NEUNER: And with the leave of the Chamber I would like to
9 show the Document P204 to the witness. This document is also relating to
10 Guca Gora. And on the addressee list under number 4, it's addressed to
11 the military police of the 306th. That's why I'm showing it to this
13 Q. If you look at the first paragraph, Mr. Jusic, it talks about
14 torching, and it talks about mass plunder, is it?
15 A. Should I have a look at it? Should I read it?
16 Q. Read it just -- just read the first paragraph above "Order"
17 please, for yourself, and if you could please briefly confirm that it
18 relates to torching and mass plunder. Just the first paragraph.
19 A. Yes, this section does refer to torching and mass plunder.
20 That's what it says.
21 Q. Thank you. And in the same sentence, it talks also about the
22 perpetrators, the perpetrators being members of the civilian population
23 and individual members of the BH Army. Am I correct?
24 A. Yes, that's what it says.
25 Q. And the document is stamped from the 18th of June. You can see
1 this on top. So some measures have been ordered on the 18th of June.
2 Since the area was taken over on the 8th of June already, why, if I may
3 ask you, and you were testifying on direct about this, why were measures
4 only taken on the 18th? Why not earlier?
5 A. Well, I can tell you what my opinion is. Measures were taken
6 before the 18th of June as well, but combat activity didn't cease on the
7 18th of June. Combat activities continued. The military police was
8 engaged in the course of combat on the whole in order to engage in
9 military action. But it wouldn't be true to say that they only started
10 taking measures on the 18th of June. Measures were taken before, to the
11 extent that this was possible.
12 Q. Thank you. I understand. Was there a curfew imposed earlier?
13 As you said, measures were taken earlier. Was there a curfew imposed in
14 order to stop people going out and taking goods from others?
15 A. I couldn't say that there was a curfew. But in a certain sense,
16 there was one because that was a combat zone, and it was very dangerous
17 to move around in the evening. From dusk to dawn, it was extremely
18 dangerous to move around. Whoever did so did so at his or her own risk.
19 Q. Just if you say yes or no: To your knowledge, was there an order
20 imposing a curfew in Guca Gora area given after the 8th of June?
21 A. I can neither confirm nor deny that, but I would sooner say no.
22 Q. Thank you. I want to talk a little bit about your background.
23 MR. NEUNER: And can I please ask the usher to show the witness a
24 document, a new document.
25 Q. If you look at the B/C/S version -- look at page 1, please, in
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13 French transcripts correspond
1 the upper left-hand corner, it dates from February 1993, the document.
2 And if you look at the very, very end of the document, the last page,
3 please, for a second, it is signed by an officer for security affairs.
4 Can you please confirm this.
5 A. I haven't read the document, but on the basis of what I can see
6 at the beginning and the end, I would say that this is the first time
7 I've seen the document.
8 Q. If you look to page 6, please, of this document - I can show you
9 in a second why I'm showing you this document - under the heading "306
10 Brigade," please. You'll find your name there and your position.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you read the relevant section mentioning your name and then
14 A. What do you mean, read it out aloud? Should I read it to myself?
15 Q. Just read your name out loud, and the sentence following.
16 A. "Jusic, Haris, the 24th of April 1998 [as interpreted], graduated
17 lawyer, an officer for legal matters will be engaged according to need."
18 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, 24th of March 1958 was the date.
19 MR. NEUNER:
20 Q. It says you were a security affairs officer and employed when
21 there was a need. Can you just explain what that means. You were
22 employed full time or you were employed less than full time? What does
23 this mean?
24 A. I think that there is a mistake here. While I was working, I
25 said worked until the end of 1992 in my company. And I was then engaged
1 according to need. And from the beginning of 1993, I started working
2 full time, so to speak, and that's the truth.
3 Q. Thank you for clarifying this. Who was your superior when you
4 worked full time?
5 A. Well, the assistant commander for security was my superior.
6 Q. Can you state his name, please, for the record.
7 A.Well, I can say what his name was, as it states here, Delalic, Asim, son of
9 Q. How many staff in the military security department were employed
10 at the time, spring, summer 1993? Just give a number. Just mention a
11 number, please.
12 A. You're referring to the department I was in, and just to that department?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. There were three, or rather four of us.
15 Q. Four persons. And in Mehurici, how many people were employed in
16 the military security organ in Mehurici, spring -- April to June, let's
17 say, 1993? Just give a number. In the 306 Brigade.
18 A. As far as I can remember, there was one person in each battalion.
19 We would call such persons security persons.
20 Q. Thank you. What was his name? The 1st Battalion of the 306 in
21 Mehurici, what was the name of the person, to your knowledge?
22 A. I find it difficult to remember names, but I think his name was
23 Hasan Zukanovic.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. NEUNER: Can the witness please be shown Document P661. And
1 for the Judges, for Your Honours, I wish to show this document because
2 the witness has testified on direct about the presence of the 7th Muslim
3 Mountain Brigade. And this document relates to it.
4 Q. The document dates from 6 April. And if you look at the second
5 paragraph, please. Does it mention the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
6 A. Could you give me time to read the paragraph.
7 This paragraph refers to individual members of the 7th Muslim
8 Brigade. I said that the 7th Muslim Brigade wasn't present in this area,
9 but there were individuals who were born in that area. They had their
10 houses there. They lived there, and they were members of the 7th Muslim
11 Brigade. And naturally, they would occasionally go home. And this is
12 how it was. That's my testimony.
13 Q. I want to ask you a few questions about Miletici, the Miletici
14 incident in April 1993. You said you were -- first of all, were you
15 involved in any direct way in the investigations relating to the Miletici
17 A. I know very little about this incident. I did not participate in
18 that event in any way. I didn't participate in anything leading up to
19 it. I didn't participate in it or anything that happened after it.
20 Q. Sir, I was just whether you participated in a direct way in an
21 investigation occurring thereafter. Did you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You said there were three other colleagues in the military
24 security department in the command, and one colleague in the military
25 security department in Mehurici. Did they participate in any
2 A. As far as I know, no.
3 Q. Is it fair to summarise, then, that none of these four persons
4 participated in any investigation after the Miletici incident?
5 A. According to my information, that would be the case. I am
6 referring to the security department of the 306th Brigade.
7 Q. You're not referring to the 1st Battalion security department?
8 You don't know about the 1st Battalion security department?
9 A. I don't know. However, I assume if there had been an
10 investigation of any sort, I would have been informed about it.
11 Q. Sir, I want to move on to the incidents in the school of
12 Mehurici. You testified about this. To your knowledge -- first of all,
13 you were called by somebody to report to the school in order to do
14 interrogations. Who was telling you to come to the school and do some
16 A. It was my obligation to report to the command because that's
17 where I worked. I inquired as to where I was supposed to go and work
18 because the command was split into three different places. I was told to
19 go to Mehurici, and it was my superior, the assistant commander for
20 security, who told me to go there.
21 Q. Thank you. And arriving in Mehurici, to whom did you speak
23 A. I really can't remember that. When I approached the school,
24 there were a lot of people there. I entered the school. I met with my
25 superiors, and then my superior told me to take statements from these
1 people. At that moment, I didn't know how many people there were, what
2 this was all about. He told me which people to take statements from. He
3 told me, "this is going to be your office, and this is where you are
4 going to work. We will organise for people to be brought to you one by
5 one. As soon as one statement is taken, the next person will be shown
6 in." And this is how I proceeded.
7 Q. So the superior to whom you spoke first, was he the assistant
8 commander for security in the 306? Your superior from Bila?
9 A. Yes. However, I can't state that he was the first I spoke to.
10 There were other people there. I may have talked to somebody else before
11 him. When it came to my work, I first spoke to him, to my superior from
12 the admin building of the coal mine in Bila.
13 Q. How long did your superior -- let me rephrase that, please. On
14 what day exactly did you arrive in Mehurici in June?
15 A. I really can't remember. It was after the 8th of June, maybe
16 three to four days after that date. But I can't be sure of that.
17 Q. And your superior, did he mention in the conversation you had
18 with him that he was arriving shortly before you or he was there already
19 for days?
20 A. We didn't discuss that. I wouldn't be able to give you a precise
21 answer to that question. After the conflict, the command was scattered,
22 ended up in three different places. At the moment of the conflict,
23 whether he was in Rudnik or in Mehurici, I really wouldn't know. But
24 those who had been in Krpeljici, they travelled from Travnik, and they
25 just could not go any further. And that's why they stayed put in
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13 French transcripts correspond
2 Q. When you first spoke to your superior, you had the impression
3 that your superior was informed about what has happened earlier? I'm
4 referring to the -- why were people there and that people had been
6 A. Nobody was killed. Can you please clarify. Which killed people
7 are you referring to?
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence is on their feet.
9 I give you the floor.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness has already
11 intervened, the Prosecutor's question referred to something that the
12 witness has never said as having seen or heard or witnessed. The witness
13 himself intervened, so there's no need for my objection.
14 MR. NEUNER: I clarify this.
15 Q. I apologise, Witness. There were many people in the school, you
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you know the reason why these people were in the school?
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already answered
20 my question. According to him, there were two reasons, and I don't see
21 the need to repeat the same answers again.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't mind repeating the
23 reasons for you.
24 MR. NEUNER:
25 Q. Let me rephrase my question to be more precise. Had your
1 superior -- I'm talking now only about the persons, the Croat persons who
2 had been killed in the Maline-Bikose incident, no longer to the persons
3 in the school. Had your superior, by the time you spoke to him, heard
4 about this incident?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President -- Mr. President,
6 my objection stands. My learned friend should maybe first ask the
7 witness whether he has ever heard about this, and only then whether his
8 superior had ever heard of this.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are faced with a difficulty
10 here. Can you please proceed.
11 MR. NEUNER:
12 Q. Have you - I rephrase the question - ever heard that Croats on
13 the 8th of June had been killed by - I phrase it very abstractly - Muslim
14 forces? I don't want to indicate any unit or whatever. Have you heard
15 that 30 to 35 Croats had been killed on the 8th of June? In Maline.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could my learned friend be more
17 precise in his question. Such a wide-scoped name, "Muslim forces,"
18 doesn't mean anything. It can mean anything, the mujahedin, the army
19 from Herzegovina, certain members of the BiH Army, and so on and so
20 forth. So the question put in this way is absolutely vague. It's not
21 precise enough.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But the question does require a
23 reply. I'm going to ask the questions.
24 Witness, I'm going to raise this issue. When you met with your
25 superior who would give you the task of take statements from the people
1 who were accommodated in the school, at the moment when you met with him,
2 did you discuss with him the totality of the events that had taken place
3 in the area? Or did you only discuss the testimonies and statements of
4 these particular individuals? Can you please answer my question. What
5 was it all about?
6 My question is rather widely put, so it gives you the freedom to
7 say whatever. What do you have to say?
8 A. When I arrived in the school in Mehurici and when I met with my
9 superior, the only thing he told me was to take statements from the
10 people that would be brought to me by policemen, one at a time. We did
11 not engage in any other conversation. After that, he went somewhere. I
12 don't know where. I suppose, since the command was in a different
13 place --
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Your superior
15 did not mention in this conversation with you what might have happened in
16 Miletici or in Maline. He never touched that topic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he didn't.
18 MR. NEUNER: Thank you for clarifying --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If after such a question, the
20 witness has said "yes," but the witness said "no." The only topic that
21 they discussed were the statements of the people in the school. This was
22 just a comment for the Prosecution.
23 MR. NEUNER:
24 Q. Did any of the 30 witnesses you interviewed talk about the fact
25 that at some point in time, people were separated from their column and
1 walked back? Or did they not mention anything at all in this regard on
2 the 8th of June?
3 A. At that moment, people answered my questions, and the answers
4 were recorded word for word. Nobody said anything to me about that.
5 Q. My last question relating to the killed Croats would be: Were
6 you aware about any investigation conducted at the time when you were
7 doing interviews? I mean by your colleagues who were there also. Did
8 you learn anything about investigative activity into such events?
9 A. Are you referring to the information that I got from the people
10 who were brought there, or are you speaking in general terms?
11 Q. I am speaking in general terms. You told me already the
12 witnesses didn't say anything. Your superior didn't say anything. But
13 maybe some of your colleagues who were on the spot as well, they were
14 engaged in some kind of investigation, and they might have mentioned
16 A. At the very beginning, nobody mentioned anything to me. After a
17 certain time, I did hear about those questions. However, during the
18 period while I was taking the statements, I didn't know a thing.
19 Q. I will come in a second to who told you later. Just for the
20 record, so neither a member of the military security service you met
21 there in Mehurici after 8th of June nor a member of the military police
22 or a member of the civilian police ever mentioned any investigation going
23 on in relation to the killed Croats near Maline-Bikose.
24 A. That is correct. I was not aware of anything at that period.
25 Q. But you said later you learned about this. When was the first
1 time you learned about this and from whom, please?
2 A. It was maybe a month or so later. As to the person I heard it
3 from, I wouldn't be able to tell you that.
4 Q. Was this a work-related conversation where you learned about the
5 killing of the Croats, or was it just a private conversation?
6 A. It must have been a private, informal conversation. It was not
7 work related.
8 Q. Sir, would it be fair to say that the killing of Croats wasn't
9 discussed in the month following this incident? The killing of the
10 Croats wasn't discussed at work at all?
11 A. I cannot answer either by saying yes or by saying no. I said
12 that I had performed tasks given to me by my superior. I don't know
13 whether he or other people knew about it. I didn't have any such
15 Q. I want to move to the questioning of detainees in the Mehurici
16 school. First of all, you testified that none of us or your colleagues
17 had any necessary knowledge before you came on the job. You came
18 basically -- let me rephrase that.
19 You testified on page 22, page 23 that none of your colleagues
20 had the necessary knowledge. Starting from there, you mentioned only one
21 military police officer had knowledge. What type of knowledge were you
22 referring to?
23 A. There were no educated officers, as far as I know. And as for
24 the knowledge that you're inquiring about, I believe that one had been a
25 military policeman in the former JNA, and this is the type of knowledge I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 was referring to.
2 Q. Did this military policeman transfer his knowledge to you or to
3 your other colleagues? Was there a kind of transfer of knowledge so that
4 you were in a position to do examinations?
5 A. First of all, I'm not even sure that he was a military policeman.
6 I just assumed that he was. And I'm referring to our assistant commander
7 for security. And obviously, whatever he knew, whatever he could convey
8 to us in terms of knowledge he did, as much as he could.
9 Q. So you also testified about training you received, I assume, in
10 international humanitarian law. So you would consider yourself being
11 qualified to do such interrogations with prisoners of war?
12 A. I did not have any trainings save for what I did at the
13 university in law school. However, when I was a student, I didn't even
14 dream of having to take part in the war. When I did that part of my
15 education, I just did it so as to be able to pass the exam. I didn't do
16 it really seriously, so to speak.
17 Q. Sir, if a prisoner of war would sit in front of you in the
18 Mehurici school, you testified you were talking to 30 persons --
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness never
20 mentioned that those were prisoners of war. He testified that he was
21 supposed to take statements from the able-bodied men who were there.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] However, the Prosecution has
23 put to the witness that he has a degree in law, and that during his
24 education he was educated on international law. The witness replied that
25 when they did that during the war, it was a different thing. From that,
1 the Prosecution - please look at line 10 - has put to the witness as
2 follows. They were going to ask him a legal question. He has a degree
3 in law, and they were going to ask him a question of a legal nature. And
4 by the answer, they could test the credibility of the witness because the
5 witness was in charge of all the legal and security affairs in the 306th
6 Brigade. It should be noted that in the document that you yourself
7 drafted, you even took a decision to detain somebody. And this was
8 signed by yourself, sir.
9 So the Chamber will allow the question of legal nature that the
10 Prosecution was going to put to this witness.
11 MR. NEUNER:
12 Q. Can you please answer the question.
13 A. If you're waiting for my answer, then I'd be grateful it you
14 could repeat your question.
15 Q. If you testified 30 persons were coming or were interviewed by
16 you in the Mehurici school, before you started that interview, what would
17 be the first information you put to this witness or to this person?
18 A. If such a person came to my office, I would naturally tell the
19 person to sit down, and I would then ask the person to give me his or her
20 particulars. I did this in case information was obtained via a criminal
21 report. This is why I took down the individual's particulars. Then I
22 asked the person some questions about what I already mentioned. We were
23 interested in what these people knew about HVO units, about weapons,
24 about mines and explosive devices. These are the sorts of questions that
25 I asked such individuals. Nothing else.
1 Q. Sir, wouldn't there be first a right of this prisoner of war?
2 Wouldn't you need to inform the person that he has a right as a prisoner
3 of war? Wouldn't that be the beginning?
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution is proceeding a
5 little too rapidly, perhaps. I'll put the question to you.
6 You carry out an investigation. You have someone before you who
7 you want to question. You're a legal officer. When you have someone
8 before you, the person has a certain status. Today, your status is that
9 of a witness. The individuals you had before you, what was their legal
10 status? What was the legal status of the individuals who were
11 questioned? These individuals apparently weren't free to leave as they
12 pleased because you yourself said that a civilian police platoon guarded
13 the facilities.
14 Could you tell us what the status of the people you questioned
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, these people had the same
17 status as the civilians who were accommodated there.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are saying that these
19 people had the status of the people who were accommodated there. If I
20 have understood you correctly, the Mehurici school was something like a
21 big hotel. They had been provided with accommodation there. But when
22 you're staying in a hotel, no one comes to ask you very precise questions
23 about how you lived, about who you had to report to, et cetera. The
24 questions that you asked these people, were these questions that
25 corresponded to the status of a woman, for example, who had a baby in her
1 arms? Were they questions that might be put to such a woman? How would
2 you define this status? This is what we are interested in.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have already said
4 that people had been provided with the best conditions we could provide
5 them with. They had the same sort of accommodation as the Muslims, the
6 Bosniaks, in the school in Han Bila. These were Muslims that had been
7 expelled from areas that were taken over by Serbs. So they had the same
8 sort of accommodation in the school in Mehurici as the Bosniaks did in
9 the school in Han Bila. We couldn't provide them with better
11 I said that we took statements from individuals who were there
12 and who were between 20 and 60 years of age. We believed that they might
13 be HVO members. This is why we took statements from them.
14 As for women, children, and the elderly, we didn't take any
15 statements from them. They were not questioned. No statements were
16 taken from these people.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If a person before you said,
18 "Sir, thank you for asking me these questions, but I'm going to leave
19 now. I'm going home," would it have been possible for this person to
20 leave the premises? That's my question.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it was war.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it was war. You know that
23 in wartime, people have a certain status. There are members of the
24 military and there are civilians. There is a law that is applied in
25 times of war. So my question is as follows: You're a legal officer, and
1 in the 306th Brigade, you're responsible for these legal matters. What
2 was the applicable law with regard to the people who were in this school?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The laws in force were the laws
4 that had been passed by the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or
5 rather, the laws in force were the laws that the Republic of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina had adopted. And I'm speaking as a lawyer now.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But according to the law of
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, civilians have the right to move around freely.
9 They can only be arrested if there is an investigation of a judicial
10 kind, and when they are guarded, as far as I can remember, they can only
11 be guarded for a three-day period. A judge has to authorise detention
12 for a period exceeding three days. That's usually the applicable law.
13 So I don't know how you interpret the law.
14 But the Prosecution has asked you a question, and the Judges are
15 asking you this question, too. The people kept in the school, what
16 rights did they have? What duties did they have? And what was it
17 possible for them to leave the premises? On a number of occasions, you
18 said that you had provided them with accommodation and that you provided
19 them with food. You should be aware of fact that we have received
20 testimony from people who were present in that school. So what we want
21 to know is how you perceived these problems. If you can answer the
22 question, answer it. If you can't, just say so, and we'll move on to
23 another question.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to remind you, Mr.
25 President, that there was a conflict because people weren't free to move
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 around. There were various incidents. People were killed. I said that
2 I was imprisoned, that half of the command was imprisoned. We didn't
3 take any measures in relation to these incidents because we did not want
4 an armed conflict to break out because we had an enemy who was too strong
5 on one side, on Vlasic, on Mount Vlasic, and we had a conflict with the
6 Croats, with the HVO. And it wasn't to our advantage. We were
7 endangered. Our lives were at risk. I wouldn't want to answer your
8 question by saying I don't know.
9 But I have also said that before the 8th of June, the HVO
10 attacked the village of Ricice and expelled the population from that
11 village. And then the village of Velika Bukovica was attacked, and 87
12 civilians were taken from that village to Busovaca. In the course of the
13 fighting and over a two-day period, seven members of our brigade were
14 killed. These people were taken away, and we waited to see what would
15 happen to these people. And I have mentioned two reasons for which the
16 people were kept in the school: first of all, we wanted to exchange them
17 for people taken away by HVO members; and the second reason was we wanted
18 to ensure that they were secure.
19 Believe me, if we had said they could go home, they would have
20 refused to go home for security reasons.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 Please continue.
23 MR. NEUNER: Officially, my time would have been expired now, but
24 since the last 10 minutes or so, 15 minutes maybe, I couldn't ask any
25 question myself --
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How much more time do you need?
2 MR. NEUNER: I would need 15 minutes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well naturally, we'll give just
4 as much time to Defence counsel. Please proceed.
5 MR. NEUNER:
6 Q. I have, after this last conversation, just one question left to
7 this topic. Mr. Jusic, are you aware that there is an article in the
8 Third Geneva Convention, Article 17, which provides - I will read it to
9 you in the French language, and it will be translated.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.
11 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Mr.
12 President, Article 17 of the Third Geneva Convention is applied to an
13 international armed conflict. And that is not part of this case.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you're well aware that
15 there is a dispute as to the nature of the armed conflict. In your
16 submissions, you mentioned an armed conflict. The Defence would like to
17 know whether the Prosecution is claiming that there was the existence of
18 an international armed conflict or an internal armed conflict. Given
19 that Article 17 of the Third Convention relates to international armed
20 conflicts, the Defence claims that this represents a problem.
21 Before you address this issue, you should first ask the witness
22 whether he is aware of the Geneva Conventions and develop the subject on
23 that basis. Try to rephrase the question without addressing the issue of
24 the international or internal nature of the conflict. You can deal with
25 legal issues since we have a lawyer as a witness. So you could approach
1 the question from a legal point of view.
2 Please go ahead. Go on.
3 MR. NEUNER:
4 Q. Sir, I will very soon move on to another topic. Just, are you
5 aware of the existence of the Geneva Conventions?
6 A. Yes. As a lawyer, I couldn't say that I'm not aware of the
7 Geneva Conventions. I told you that I studied international law, and I
8 passed the exam and obtained my degree. So I'm aware of these
9 conventions. I knew there was an international court. I knew there was
10 an international court in The Hague. I was aware of all of these things.
11 Q. And the Third Geneva Convention, do you know what the topic of
12 the Third Geneva Convention is?
13 A. I don't know. I didn't need to study that for my exams. What I
14 studied 25 or 30 years ago, well, as far as I can remember, I studied
15 what I needed to perform my duties.
16 MR. NEUNER: I move on.
17 Q. When you were questioning people, were you questioning alone, or
18 you had some colleagues with you?
19 A. I was alone with them. The person who would bring them to the
20 office would stand outside the door. When I finished with one person,
21 that person would leave, another person would be brought in. That's how
22 we worked.
23 Q. Can you first tell me, were there other people doing the
24 interrogations, or were you the only person doing the interrogations?
25 A. Perhaps before I arrived, someone else interrogated them. But I
1 don't know. While I was there, while I interrogated the people there, my
2 superior said that two young men had arrived from Zenica, either from the
3 corps -- perhaps they were from the corps. And he said that they would
4 take statements from some individuals. I was told to allow them to do
5 so, and I allowed them to take statements. They were there for a day or
6 two, no longer. They took statements from some individuals and then
7 left, after which I continued to do my work.
8 Q. So you were present when these two persons from Zenica were
9 asking questions, or you were outside the room?
10 A. I could have been there with them, but I could also have left.
11 So I listened to them questioning a few individuals, but I would also
12 leave the premises. I wasn't present at all times during their
14 Q. And were these people from the military police in Zenica?
15 A. They didn't introduce themselves to me. But my superior told me
16 this is what they were going to do, and if he told me that I should allow
17 them to do this without checking their identity, et cetera, well,
18 naturally this is something that I accepted.
19 Q. Who was your superior who told you to permit these two military
20 police officers to ask questions? What's the name?
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this question is
22 entirely inappropriate. The witness said that he didn't know who they
23 were, and he said that he thought that they came from Zenica. My learned
24 colleague said, Who was the superior who allowed those two military
25 police officers to interrogate individuals? So this question is entirely
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Now that I look at the
3 transcript, it seems that there were two persons who arrived there. So
4 you should proceed as follows -- well, in fact, I'll ask the witness the
5 question. Otherwise we'll waste a lot of time.
6 You said at a given point in time - we don't know when - two
7 persons arrived from Zenica. Were these two individuals men or women?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two young men, as I said.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So these men, were
10 they wearing civilian clothes or were they in military uniform?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in uniform, in military
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they were wearing military
14 uniforms. Did they have insignia or badges of any kind? Which unit did
15 they belong to?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They probably had insignia of some
17 kind, but I can't remember what sort of insignia they had on them.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So were these
19 members of the HVO? Were these men members of the HVO? I can see that
20 you are smiling. So they could only be members of the BH Army.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, they couldn't have
22 been HVO members. But as I have already said, perhaps the Chamber didn't
23 understand me, I said they were from Zenica. I said they were from the
24 3rd Corps. And I said that someone from Zenica sent them to us, a
25 superior from Zenica sent them to us. That's what I said. Because I
1 doubt that my superior would have allowed just anyone to go there.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But the 3rd Corps
3 had up to 32.000 troops. That's what we have been told. As this corps
4 was divided into various sorts of units, did these men belong to one of
5 the units, the 7th Brigade, the 312th, the 306th Brigade, et cetera, et
6 cetera? Or were these men men who only reported to the main staff of
7 the -- to the headquarters of the 3rd Corps? Which unit did they belong
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I didn't say the
10 3rd Corps had 32.000 members, because I don't know how many members the
11 3rd Corps had. I said that two young men arrived. My superior told me
12 that they would be taking statements from some of the individuals who
13 were present in the school. I was told to allow them to do so.
14 As to whether they were from the 3rd Corps command or from the
15 3rd Corps military police battalion or from the KP Dom or from the
16 supreme command, I really don't know. I assume they had some sort of
17 insignia, but I can't remember the insignia that they had on them. And
18 believe me, I cannot really say which unit they belonged to.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you can't tell
20 us which unit they belonged to. On the basis of the questions that they
21 put, since you were present there, were -- would you say that these men
22 were lawyers, judges, prosecutors, plumbers, drivers? Who were they?
23 What would you say on the basis of the questions you heard them put?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, I didn't know what
25 they were by profession, nor do I know that now. But I assume that they
1 had been sent there by our superiors. I was present when they
2 interrogated these men. I wanted to see whether they were better at it.
3 I wanted to see whether I could learn something from them. I was present
4 on a couple of occasions, and I saw that they were no better at
5 interrogating these people than I was. And as to what their profession
6 was, I don't know.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you're telling
8 us that you were present to see whether they were better prepared to
9 interrogate these people than you were, and you decided they weren't.
10 But if you are an excellent interrogator, perhaps they are interrogated,
11 too [as interpreted].
12 But let's proceed.
13 MR. NEUNER:
14 Q. On page 48, line 18, you mentioned these two persons were from
15 the corps. You were referring to the 3rd Corps, I assume.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness said
17 he came from superior command. I don't know whether it was the
18 3rd Corps, the battalion, the supreme command. This was in response to
19 your question. Why is the Prosecution asking the witness the same
20 question since this question has been answered by the witness on two
21 occasions already?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, he said that they came
23 from the 3rd Corps, but he doesn't know from which unit. So please move
24 on, otherwise we'll end up wasting more time.
25 MR. NEUNER:
1 Q. You testified earlier that there were many neighbours of you in
2 the school. So you knew some of them. Were you aware that there was
3 also a survivor of the Maline-Bikose incident in your school?
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm surprised to see that
6 you are addressing this matter since it's not something that has been
7 discussed yet. It's not something that has been raised by the Defence
8 either. Why are you trying to ask the witness this question?
9 Yes, Defence counsel.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness has
11 answered my learned colleague's question a number of times. He said that
12 he found out about the events in Bikose only a little later. So how
13 could he know whether anyone had survived that event if he wasn't
14 familiar with the event at all? So the questions being put to this
15 witness now are now inappropriate. They are being put to him to make the
16 witness say something he never wanted to say.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness initially said that
18 in Miletici and Maline -- as far as Miletici and Maline are concerned, he
19 knew nothing when he was performing his duties. It was only one month
20 later that he obtained certain information. And now you are asking
21 him -- you are saying that there was a survivor from Maline, and you can
22 see why there is a problem. I'll try to deal with this contradiction.
23 Among the civilians accommodated in the Mehurici school, among
24 those you saw, were there any who spoke about events that they had
25 personally experienced? Did you hear anything about such events? As far
1 as you know, among the people who were there, did anyone tell you about
2 an event of any significance? Can you remember any such cases? Or were
3 you under the impression that these were good citizens who hadn't
4 experienced anything in particular apart from the fact that they were
5 being kept in the school for the purpose of their own safety? What can
6 you say about that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, I've already said
8 none of the people who were there from whom I took statements told me
9 anything. I only knew what I've already testified about. And I only
10 learned about these events later on.
11 MR. NEUNER:
12 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Zeljko Puselja?
13 A. Yes. I know Zeljko Puselja. We lived in the same neighbourhood.
14 He is a good guy. I knew him very well, I can say.
15 Q. Did you see Mr. Zeljko Puselja in the Mehurici school in June
17 A. Yes, I saw him in the school. He was there. I know that his arm
18 was bandaged. He had been given first aid, apparently. I don't know who
19 from. I took a statement from him as well.
20 Q. Were you the only person who took a statement of Zeljko Puselja
21 or were there others in the room when you were doing it, or taking a
22 statement afterwards from him?
23 A. I can't remember that. I don't know whether I was with them when
24 Zeljko was being interviewed or not. I really can't remember.
25 Q. Do you know the date when you interviewed him approximately?
1 Directly after you were arriving, a few days after you were arriving?
2 A. It took a few days for me to take all the statements. And during
3 that period of time, I took a statement from him as well. I arrived in
4 Mehurici on the 8th of June. I was taking statements over a period of a
5 few days. And during that period, at some point in time, I took a
6 statement from him as well.
7 Q. In what condition was Mr. Puselja when he talked to you? You
8 mentioned already he had a bandage around his arm. But what was his
9 general condition?
10 A. At the moment when I spoke to him, his general condition was
11 good. His life was not threatened. His arm was bandaged up to his
12 elbow. But his general condition was good.
13 Q. Since he was your neighbour, you knew that -- You took a
14 statement from him. Do you recall any particulars of what he told you?
15 First of all, let me rephrase. Why did you take a statement of -- why
16 did you take a statement of him?
17 A. The principle was the same. He fell into the right age group.
18 He was somewhere between 20 and 60. And that was the main reason. There
19 was no other reason at all.
20 Q. And do you recall any particulars of what Mr. Zeljko Puselja told
21 you during the interrogations?
22 A. I don't recall any details. This was about 13 years ago. I
23 can't recall any of the details.
24 Q. So you never spoke again with him afterwards about your
25 statement, since you told me you knew him? You don't remember?
1 A. After that, I didn't talk to him. People are currently returning
2 to their homes. I could have bumped into him. I didn't. I would like
3 to see him. I have never heard him say anything bad about me, about the
4 way I treated him. Nobody for that matter said anything bad about me.
5 And as to your question whether I ever met him after that, no, I didn't.
6 Q. Sir, one of the witnesses who has appeared in front of this Trial
7 Chamber testified that Mr. Zeljko Puselja had a fractured arm. Did you
8 notice this at the time?
9 A. I believe that I've already answered that. At the moment when I
10 spoke to him, his arm was bandaged up to the elbow. I don't know whether
11 this was just a gauze bandage or a plaster. I don't know. In any case,
12 his arm was bandaged. It may have been fractured for all I know. I
13 can't tell you. I may have even asked him that, but I don't remember
14 whether I did or not and what his answer was.
15 Q. Do you remember the statement you took from him or -- generally,
16 the statements, where were you passing them on? You were forwarding them
17 somewhere, I assume. To your superior, or were they going to somewhere
19 A. As far as I can remember, I personally did not forward these
20 statements, save to the person who actually ordered me to perform this
22 Q. And you are probably not aware where this person was forwarding
23 the statement to; you just know you forwarded it to your superior who
24 gave you the task, and then you don't know where they went to.
25 A. I don't know whether they were forwarded at all. I was deployed
1 to a different position. I went to work there. What happened to the
2 statements, whether anybody forwarded them, used them, did anything with
3 them, I don't know.
4 Q. And the persons coming from Zenica, you also -- did they also
5 take statements with them, or you kept all the statements?
6 A. They took their papers with them. They didn't give anything to
7 me. In my view, they were my superiors, and it was my obligation to
8 allow them to do their job as they best saw fit. As they were leaving,
9 they said "We are not coming back. You just proceed and do what you're
11 Q. Does this imply that you could look at the content of the
12 statements they took, or since they treated you as a kind of subordinate,
13 you weren't even allowed to look into their statements?
14 A. I did not feel the need to read these statements. I was present
15 during one or two interviews just to see what they were doing and compare
16 their way of work with the way I do things. In my opinion, there was no
17 need to ask them anything or to say anything to them. They just did
18 their job, and then they left. Where they went to, I don't know.
19 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, the Prosecution has no further
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have some 10 minutes before
22 the break.
23 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusic, tell me, please, when you were
25 interrogating the individuals who were accommodated in the buildings in
1 Mehurici, did you ever use force? Did you ever threaten these people?
2 A. Never. I never used force or threat. I found myself in a very
3 awkward situation to have to take statements from my former neighbours
4 with whom I had very good neighbourly relations. We used to work in the
5 same companies. In other words, I never used force. I even didn't wear
6 a military uniform to avoid any discomfort. So when I took statements, I
7 wore civilian clothes.
8 Q. Mr. Jusic, you asked these persons questions. When they answered
9 those questions, did they do it of their own free will without any
10 coercion on your part?
11 A. I appreciated the situation that these people were in. They
12 could not have felt at ease. However, my impression was, and I did my
13 best to create such an atmosphere for them to tell me freely what they
14 wanted to tell me. Some of them even told me that they were members of
15 the HVO, who their commander was. Some even said that they could go to
16 their villages and show us where the arms were, where the explosives
17 were, where the minefields were. And I've already said that in
18 cooperation with them, we did go to the villages and found those
19 explosives and arms.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit
21 P204. I don't know whether the witness still has it, or does he have to
22 be provided with it.
23 Q. You have already read this document. I would like to draw your
24 attention to the part that precedes the words "hereby order." In the
25 introduction, is it said that it was the civilians who were involved in
1 plunder as well as some individuals from the army? Is that what this
2 document actually states?
3 A. My opinion with regard to the facts that are mentioned in this
4 document is relative to the prevention of plunder and arson committed by
5 civilians. The document was drafted on the 18th of June which was
6 immediately after the combat operations. I am not even sure that the
7 combat operations were finished at the time. In any case, the front line
8 was still open. And at that moment the brigade had two front lines, one
9 of them on Mount Vlasic and the other one facing the HVO. It took a huge
10 number of people to man those two lines. In the light of the fact that
11 during the combat operations, some people got killed, a lot got wounded.
12 Q. Thank you very much. I believe that you have answered my
14 My learned friend drew your attention to the date when this
15 document was drafted, which is the 18th of June. And as far as I
16 remember, you replied that measures were taken even before that.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown a
18 series of documents, DH161/9, DH161/10, DH161/11, DH161/12, DH161/13,
19 DH161/16, and DH162/2. Since I have these documents with me, I can
20 assist the usher and ask to present these documents to the witness.
21 MR. NEUNER: Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.
23 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution objects because this issue of
24 measures has been raised by the Defence in her examination-in-chief
25 already. And I didn't elaborate on a new topic. So there was already a
1 chance given for the Defence to elaborate on this topic.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Any re-examination and the
3 right to reply to such question has to do with the answers provided to
4 the question put on cross-examination. Now you are introducing new
5 documents. Why? Can you please explain to us what their contents are.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Document P204 was
7 not used on cross-examination. It was the document that was shown to the
8 witness by the Prosecution. As for the new series of documents, this
9 arises from the Prosecutor's question relative to the date, the 18th of
10 June 1993. He asked, Why didn't the army take any measures prior to this
11 in order to prevent these incidents? I would like to show the witness
12 all these documents and put just one question to him after that.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution has put such a
14 question to the witness. I remember that well. And the document in
15 question was drafted on the 18th of June. And the question was how come
16 that no prior measures were taken? And the witness responded there were
17 other measures. Is that what you wanted to confirm with the witness? In
18 that case, you can show the documents to the witness.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Jusic, can you please look at all of these documents and tell
21 me what the dates on these documents are.
22 A. The 9th of June 1993, 10th of June 1993 --
23 Q. Just a moment, please. The first document is 9th of June 1993.
24 Who was it addressed to?
25 A. It was addressed to the units and staffs of the 3rd Corps. I
1 believe that this K stands for the 3rd Corps.
2 Q. To the units and the staffs of the 3rd Corps.
3 A. Yes, to all of them.
4 Q. Can you please tell me, the introductory part of this document,
5 what does it convey?
6 A. In order to prevent inappropriate behaviour of the members of the
7 BH Army in the sense of combat activities against the HVO and to preserve
8 the moral character of the BiH Army fighter, I hereby warrant --
9 Q. So this is the document dated the 9th of June. Can you please
10 look at the second document. What's the date?
11 A. 10 June 1993.
12 Q. Who was this addressed to? Who was this document addressed to?
13 A. To all subordinate units, and it was sent by the command of the
14 3rd Corps.
15 Q. What is the subject of this order? What does it refer to?
16 A. The subject of this order are measures in place against plunder
17 and destruction of property.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the transcript, the
19 first document was DH161/9, and the second one is 161/10.
20 Q. Can you please look at the following document. What is the date
21 on it?
22 A. It is the 16th of June 1993, to the commands of all units, to the
23 assistant commanders for security. And the subject is exchange of
24 prisoners of war between the BiH Army and the HVO.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, this is
2 Q. Can you please look at the following document.
3 A. The following document bears the date 16 June 1993. It is a
4 document marked urgent, and it -- it's regarding the delivery of order.
5 Q. Who is it addressed to?
6 A. To the command of the operations group, to the commands of
7 independent brigades, to all of them; to the commands of independent
8 battalions, all of them; and to the municipal defence staff command.
9 Actually, I don't understand the abbreviation. I believe it's the
10 municipal staffs, to all of them.
11 Q. Looking at the preamble of this order, can you tell us what does
12 this order refer to? Can you please read this.
13 A. On the basis of information received from the corps command and
14 unverified details in connection with pillage and torching of citizens'
15 property in the wake of combat operations, in order to establish the
16 whole truth and in this connection to establish the whole truth -- this
17 must be a printing error - I issue the following order.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the transcript, this is
19 the document 162/12.
20 Q. Can you please look at the following document.
21 A. The following document bears the date 16 June 1993. It was sent
22 to the 306th Mountain Brigade, personally to the commander. And the
23 subject is securing Guca Gora region.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, this is
1 Q. Can you please look at the following document.
2 A. The following document bears the date 19 June 1993, and it is
3 addressed to all the subordinate units. It was sent by the command of
4 the 3rd Corps. And the subject is prevention of arrest of civilians,
5 pillage, and destruction of property.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is DH161/16.
7 Q. And finally, can you look at the last document.
8 A. The date is 9th June 1993. It was sent to the Lasva Operations
9 Group. And it regards your enactment and orders being issued following
10 an enactment.
11 Q. And it refers to the protection of civilians and their property?
12 A. I haven't read it.
13 Q. Go ahead, read it.
14 A. As far as I can see, assistance was requested in order to protect
15 the property of civilians, and the corps was requested to provide
16 assistance. And here, the corps command orders property to be protected.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, this is
19 Q. Having inspected these documents, having perused the contents
20 thereof, Mr. Jusic, do these documents show you -- does it arise from
21 these documents that the intention of the 3rd Corps was to prevent
22 crimes, to carry out investigations, to punish the perpetrators thereof,
23 and that these measures are being repeated in order for them to be
24 accepted by the subordinate units?
25 A. From these documents and from the facts that I am aware of, the
1 3rd Corps command invested a maximum effort, and they did as much as they
2 could, like it says in one of the documents, in order to preserve the
3 moral character of the BiH Army and its fighters.
4 Q. And my last question with this regard, Mr. Jusic, you have
5 responded a number of questions and it was your intention to describe to
6 us the very difficult situation in which the BiH Army units performed
7 their task. The documents that I have just shown to you, do they show
8 that in spite of these difficult conditions, measures were taken and BiH
9 Army members were punished for every crime that they might have
11 A. According to what I know, in my brigade and in the corps,
12 everything was done to prevent conflict. Once the conflict did happen,
13 then everything was done that -- to make sure that international
14 standards were respected and that people who were detained and people who
15 were arrested would be protected, as well as their property that had
16 remained abandoned.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Jusic.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's time for the break now.
19 We'll resume at about 1.00, and we'll have 45 minutes left.
20 --- Recess taken at 12.41 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have 45 minutes left for
23 additional questions and the Judges' questions. You may proceed.
24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
25 only have a number of questions that concern the document shown by the
1 Prosecution to the witness. Document P661 is the one concerned. I think
2 the witness has it to his right.
3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusic, you've already had the opportunity
5 reading this document, and you have answered questions about it when
6 these questions were put to you by the Prosecution. Kljaci is mentioned
7 in the document, the village of Kljaci. I have a map here. But since
8 you're from the area, could you just tell me what the distance between
9 the village of Kljaci to the village of Mehurici is about 10 kilometres.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. My first question is as follows: This document has already been
12 shown to a witness from the 306th Brigade. He testified on the 26th of
13 October. It was shown by Ms. Benjamin. And if I told you that after an
14 exchange of letters between the 307th [as interpreted] and the 3rd Corps,
15 it was established that this information wasn't correct, that members of
16 the 7th Brigade weren't in the village of Kljaci, you would agree with
17 me, wouldn't you?
18 A. It would be most correct to say that I wasn't familiar with this.
19 And a minute ago, when answering questions about this document, I said
20 that the 7th Brigade wasn't in that area, but that perhaps there were
21 members of the 7th who lived in that area, who had homes in that area.
22 So it would be best and most appropriate for me to say that I'm not
23 familiar with this.
24 Q. Thank you. But there's a mistake on page 65, line 4. It says
25 the 307th Brigade, and it should say the 306th Brigade.
1 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no other questions.
2 Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I have some questions I
4 would like to put to you that are directly related to what you told both
5 parties a while ago.
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You provided two main reasons
8 for the presence of people in the Mehurici school. You said that on one
9 hand, it was because there were Muslims in a certain area who had been
10 taken by the HVO, and you said that you wanted to have an exchange. The
11 second reason was that these people were provided with accommodation by
12 the military authorities.
13 As far as the first reason is concerned, if I have understood
14 what you have said correctly, and this is why I'm asking you to clarify
15 your answer, in your mind, there were civilians who were "detained" by
16 the military authorities, and these Croatian civilians who were detained
17 were going to be exchanged for Muslim civilians detained by the HVO.
18 Have I understood the first reason correctly?
19 A. Yes, that's quite right. As I said, the first reason was that
20 HVO units had initiated an armed conflict. They carried out an attack on
21 Velika Bukovica and when they did so, they took away 87 civilians. And
22 these people were needed for an exchange. I wouldn't agree that the
23 military authorities were involved in this and that they took care of
24 these civilians in the course of the conflict. They were taken to the
25 Mehurici school, but in my opinion, the civilian authorities took care of
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you are telling
3 us that the civilian authorities were in charge of them, but you said
4 that the military authorities were also present because you personally
5 conducted interrogations of these people.
6 A. Well, in a certain sense, yes, but I think I have already
7 explained this. The military authorities were only responsible for those
8 who were assumed to be fit for military action.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, the people
10 in the Mehurici school were exchanged.
11 A. Yes. I wasn't there. I had already left, assumed other duties.
12 After I had left, perhaps 10 days later or perhaps a little more, we
13 assumed that the exchange would take place quite rapidly. But I think
14 that that they stayed on for unknown reasons, perhaps for ten days or
15 more. I couldn't be precise.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, was there a
17 bipartite organisation, an ABiH/HVO organisation that proceeded to carry
18 out the exchange? Who was the superior authority that decided to
19 exchange the inhabitants of one village for the inhabitants of another
20 village? Do you have any information about this?
21 A. As far as I know, there was such a body involved in the exchange.
22 As far as the BH Army's concerned, I know this for sure, and I assume
23 there was such an organ on the HVO side as well. And I think that the
24 people who were responsible for this actually carried the task out.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I'm following you, the
1 army was responsible for exchanging these civilians through the
2 intermediary of this body.
3 A. Yes, as far as I know, civilians were exchanged. I think it was
4 in the place called Dolac near Travnik. And as for those who were
5 believed to be able-bodied men, they were taken to Zenica, and I don't
6 know what subsequently happened to them.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And another
8 question concerning another subject: You said that as a member of the
9 3rd Corps of the 306th Brigade security organ, you forwarded reports to
10 the military prosecutor who was in Travnik when there were incidents
11 reported by the military police. And with regard to this subject, with
12 regard to this matter, the Prosecution showed you a document, Document
13 Number 2, and I would like you to be shown this document. This document
14 is number 1448. It's a Defence document. It's a report to the Travnik
15 military prosecutor, a criminal report.
16 As far as I can see -- well, can you recognise this document?
17 Would you say that it is a report from the 306th Brigade.
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This report refers to a
20 violation committed by a number of members of the 325th Mountain Brigade.
21 Their names are on page 1. Is that correct? Could you have a look at
22 the last sentence in the report. You said that all information provided
23 to the prosecution on these suspects, you said that -- you suggested that
24 the prosecution should bring an indictment against them. Can you see the
25 sentence? That's the conclusion of the report. It says that the
1 prosecutor is requested to bring an indictment against them.
2 A. Yes, I've found that sentence.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. When there were
4 such situations, each time the military authority represented by the
5 security organ suggested that the Prosecutor bring an indictment when a
6 crime was committed or when an offence was committed. Is that how
7 matters proceeded?
8 A. When we found out that army members, because we were above all a
9 body that was responsible for our own members. But in this case, members
10 of another brigade are concerned. They had traversed a lengthy route.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Since you are a lawyer,
12 and you can answer some questions put to you by the Judges. The
13 perpetrator or the perpetrators weren't members of your brigade, they
14 were members of the 325th Brigade. Did you have the competence to deal
15 with it since the crimes had been committed in your area of
16 responsibility? Is that why you referred the case to the Travnik
17 prosecutor? Was it because the crimes had been committed in an area
18 under your jurisdiction? Is this why you wanted them to be prosecuted?
19 Because they weren't members of the 306th Brigade. Why not ask the
20 commander of the 325th Brigade to do his work? Why were you involved in
22 A. Why were we responsible to file criminal reports against members
23 of other brigades? Now, I think that is the question you were asking me.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Exactly.
25 A. We acted in this manner because these men were army members who
1 were present in our area. They had been arrested at the site where they
2 were attempting to commit a crime. We handed them over to the military
3 prosecutor's office. And after having handed them over to the competent
4 body, we had done our bit. If they thought there was good reason to
5 proceed and to prosecute them, they would do so. They would act in
6 accordance with the law. They would take the necessary measures. So
7 this was an exception. We were responsible for our own members.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you say that
9 that was an exceptional circumstance. Why?
10 A. Well, because the 325th -- well, believe me, I don't know where
11 its command was located. We weren't in contact. We weren't able to take
12 them to their command. The roads were not practicable. We didn't have a
13 car. We didn't have fuel. We had absolutely nothing. The simplest
14 thing to do was to file a criminal report, to take them to the Travnik
15 prosecutor's office, and then make sure that they took further action in
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And my last question, we'll go
18 back to the Document P204 that we know well. Could you please show the
19 witness the Document P204 which has been shown at least ten times now.
20 In B/C/S.
21 Could you please read out aloud paragraph 7.
22 A. "Individual movement by armed persons must be stopped, and these
23 persons must be disarmed and registered."
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is the order
25 issued to you. When someone was moving around and carrying weapons, it
1 was necessary to stop such a person. Was this order valid for all army
3 A. I can't say for sure, but in my opinion, yes.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have been told on a number
5 of occasions - and in a certain sense you have confirmed this, too - we
6 have been told that in Mehurici or nearby there were individuals called
7 mujahedin who moved around and carried arms. On the basis of item 7,
8 shouldn't these individuals have been arrested, disarmed, and shouldn't
9 disciplinary measures have been taken against them in accordance with
10 this order? Why was this never done? Could you explain this.
11 A. Mr. President, it's very difficult to answer this question given
12 the situation in the field. On the one hand, as I said, we had one
13 defence line which was dozens of kilometres long. And we had another
14 line facing the HVO of a similar length. We were facing two enemies and
15 there was combat at the lines quite frequently. And if we had acted in
16 accordance with item 7, this would have involved opening up a third line
17 in the middle. We would have had two lines each side and a line in the
18 middle. At the time, I think it would have been impossible to act in
19 this manner.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have answered
21 my question perfectly. I have one more question, since I see we have not
22 much time left. This is the question I've wanted to ask for a long time.
23 You have described, as well as other witnesses, something about
24 HVO checkpoints. A number of witnesses said there were HVO checkpoints.
25 You yourself said that there were three checkpoints: Ovnak, Zabilje, and
1 Guca Gora.
2 A. Zabilje.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Zabilje. Three checkpoints.
4 And you spontaneously mentioned an unfortunate incident. You said that
5 you yourself and comrades of yours were stripped by HVO members in
6 conditions that you described as shameful, and this took place at a
7 checkpoint. My question is as follows: Given that there were
8 checkpoints in this area, the mujahedin who circulated in various
9 vehicles - in a Toyota as you said, but we don't want to advertise such
10 vehicles - you said they were circulated in a white vehicle. There were
11 about ten of them. They were armed. So given that there were
12 checkpoints there, how could they pass through the HVO checkpoints?
13 Could you explain why you - and you, too, were armed and controlled by
14 the HVO - why were you controlled by the HVO but the others, the
15 mujahedin, weren't, since they were circulating in the same area that you
16 were circulating in? Could you clarify this for us, since this is an
17 issue that has not been raised yet and it hasn't been clarified either.
18 We have seen a map that a witness referred to, and it appears there were
19 checkpoints almost everywhere. And if there were checkpoints, anyone
20 passing through would be checked. As far as the mujahedin are concerned,
21 the mujahedin who circulated in that area, are you aware of them being
22 checked, too?
23 A. Mr. President, you haven't understood me correctly. I said that
24 there were three checkpoints in the Bila region. Ovnak, Zabilje, and
25 Guca Gora. Initially, it was not possible for the buses to pass through;
1 then those who were a little braver would pass through in cars, and then
2 finally no one would pass through. So no members of the BH Army could
3 pass through those checkpoints, nor could civilians pass through them.
4 And as for the checkpoint at which we were humiliated and
5 disarmed and maltreated as you said, that wasn't a checkpoint. That was
6 an ad hoc incident because there were Croats in that area, and HVO troops
7 lived in our area. So it's not as if we were just present in an area
8 where there were no Croats. They, in fact, laid an ambush. They did
9 what they did, and they then left.
10 There were mujahedin who moved around that area, too, but they
11 selected us. They could have chosen to do the same to them. I have my
12 own opinion as to why they chose us and not them. But as that's not what
13 you're asking me about, I won't address the issue.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have almost answered my
15 question. I see at line 73 you say that mujahedin circulated in the
16 area. They could have been controlled just as you were. Should I draw
17 the conclusion that they were not, in fact, controlled?
18 A. Not in the way we were. But they could have been. The same
19 principle could have been applied. They could have been stopped and
20 humiliated just as we were. I have my opinion about that, but I'd rather
21 not share it at this point.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. You're saying
23 that you don't want to share this opinion, and I'm not going to put you
24 in any awkward situation. Now, if I understood you well, there was a
25 checkpoint, and there were HVO soldiers in uniform. You were passing in
1 a uniform -- in a vehicle. The mujahedin also passed in a vehicle, but
2 their vehicle was able to go through. Is that what happened?
3 A. When I was talking about this incident, I said that there was a
4 car in front of us with four fighters armed to the tooth. But there must
5 have been more than 50 around the vehicle. It was an ambush, a planned
6 ambush. And we were only lucky not to have put up resistance. Had we
7 have put up resistance, then I would probably not be here today because
8 the ambush was really well prepared. This was not a checkpoint. It was
9 an ambush, an ambush that served that moment. And they could have put up
10 that ambush for the mujahedin, but they didn't. They didn't.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then.
12 A. I'll tell you. I'll share my opinion with you. Because it would
13 have ended differently. It would not have ended the way it did with us.
14 That's my opinion. The outcome would have been different if they had
15 stopped the mujahedin.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then. As far as the
17 7th Brigade is concerned, you said that the 7th Brigade was not in
18 Mehurici, as far as you know, and no military unit was present there.
19 But you've also told us that there could have been some soldiers, members
20 of the 7th Brigade, who were residents of Mehurici or the general area
21 thereof, and that they could have been there at the time. You yourself
22 were very familiar with the region. Did you know any of the soldiers of
23 the 7th Brigade who were residents of the region? Did you personally
24 know any of them?
25 A. Mr. President, let me correct you ever so slightly. I didn't say
1 that there were no other military units in the area. In the area, there
2 was a brigade of the BH Army, the 314th Brigade. And as for the rest of
3 your question, whether I know any of the members of the 7th Muslim
4 Brigade, believe me, I don't know anybody, and I adhere to my words when
5 I said that some of them resided in the area, some of their families
6 resided in the area. They were members of the 7th Muslim Brigade. And I
7 would like to repeat: As far as I know, the 7th Muslim Brigade was not
8 there as a unit.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then.
10 Any re-examination arising from the questions that I've put to
11 the witness? I'll give the floor to both parties.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, maybe you would
13 like to give the floor to the Prosecution. We would like to be the last,
14 because this is our witness.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The Prosecution, you have
16 the floor.
17 MR. NEUNER: Since Your Honour Judge Antonetti have mentioned a
18 march starting at the Mehurici school, the Prosecution has a document in
19 its possession which also has been disclosed to the Defence. And we
20 would be prepared to show this, if Your Honours grant us leave to do so.
21 This document could shed light on the incident.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the English transcript, I
23 see you said that I've mentioned a march? I have not mentioned a march.
24 What did I mention? Can you be more precise? Can you clarify?
25 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, the Prosecution understood that you
1 were asking whether civilians were taken out of the school or being
2 exchanged, so basically that at some point in time detainees in the
3 school have been marched somewhere. And you asked also for a village to
4 which the -- the witness mentioned a village to which members or
5 detainees had been taken to. And we would have a document which can shed
6 some light on this. Would you allow the Prosecution to show this? May I
7 ask the Usher.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence. The witness did say
9 that the detainees were exchanged. If they were exchanged, they had to
10 leave the school, and the Prosecution now says that there is a document
11 that they would like to show the witness a document regarding the
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, Your Honour, in the
14 description provided to us by my learned friend, I didn't recognise
15 anything that you have referred to. Secondly, the witness has already
16 said several times that he left the area after a certain period of time,
17 and that it was only later on that he learned about the exchange which
18 had taken place. And when the documents were shown to him bearing the
19 23rd of June or some other date, he said that he abandoned the area some
20 seven days later and he only heard about the events that took place later
21 on. So no such document can be shown to the witness.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the witness did tell us
23 that the exchange took place when he was no longer there. So any
24 document that would follow his departure, you cannot show it to the
25 witness because he was not there. In line with the objection put forth
1 by the Defence, I cannot authorise you to put that question to the
3 MR. NEUNER: I can just put some additional information to Your
4 Honours. Certainly from the Defence objection, I understand that the
5 Defence has carefully studied the document. I just would like to inform
6 you that Asim Delalic, the assistant commander for security of the 306th
7 Brigade is specifically mentioned in this document, and the Prosecution
8 believes that Mr. Asim Delalic, as an assistant commander of security of
9 the 306th Brigade, was certainly one of the superiors of this witness.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to give the floor to
11 the Defence. But it has already been indicated that his superior at that
12 time was this person.
13 The Defence, you have the floor.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. This witness will arrive,
20 so you will have the opportunity to show him the documents.
21 Any more questions on the part of the Prosecution?
22 MR. NEUNER: Then we would have no questions, Your Honour. We
23 will show the document -- we intend to show the document at a later point
24 in time. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Defence,
1 please. Just a few minutes that we still have.
2 Further examination by Ms. Residovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusic, the Judge has asked you about the
4 reasons why the people were brought there, and you repeated in your view
5 one of the reasons was the future exchange. Where were you on the 8th of
7 A. On the 8th of June as I already said, I was in my village, in my
8 own village. So on the day when the large-scale conflict was taking
10 Q. Thank you very much. The persons that you interrogated, on the
11 8th of June when you were in your village, were they taken to the school
12 on that day?
13 A. I can't be sure of that. But I assume that they were taken there
14 on the first day.
15 Q. You were not in Maline on that day, and you don't know. Did
16 anybody tell you what the reason was for these people being brought to
17 the school?
18 A. Yeah, I was in my village. And people were brought there before
19 my arrival. When I turned up in the school in Mehurici, they were
20 already there. I found them there.
21 Q. In light of the fact that you've given us two reasons, are these
22 the reasons that you are aware of as facts, or are these your
24 A. I said in my opinion.
25 Q. Thank you very much. My next question arises from the question
1 that the Judge put to you with regard to our document number 2. This is
2 the criminal report that you filed with the district military prosecutor
3 in Travnik. Earlier on, you said that the last time you met with the
4 Geneva Conventions was some 30 years ago when you were a law student.
5 Please tell me, were you engaged in criminal law at any point in time?
6 A. No, I was never engaged in criminal law. During the war, I was
7 forced to do this because it was charged with that. I ended up doing
9 Q. The Honourable Judge read out to you the last sentence in which
10 you suggest that the prosecutor did something. The person who filed a
11 criminal report in your experience, or lack of experience, rather, did it
12 have an influence on the way you drafted such an enactment, a legal
14 A. I worked to the best of my abilities. Whether I made errors and
15 mistakes, I don't know if I made a mistake in this particular case.
16 There was another body which was more professional, more skilful than me,
17 and they could put it right.
18 Q. You were also talking about the fact that in this criminal
19 report, persons against whom the report was filed are persons from the
20 306th Brigade. And you said that your authority was over your own
21 troops, but this is against the 325th Brigade. Can you please look at
22 the document and tell us whether the damage was suffered by the building
23 that was secured by your brigade, the transmission power line.
24 A. This facility is in Guca Gora. Guca Gora was inhabited by the
25 Croatian population. In Guca Gora, we tried to secure the most important
1 facilities. Amongst them was the church, the power transmission line.
2 There was a shoe factory as well.
3 Q. Thank you very much. In addition to the authority to prosecute
4 members of the army, primarily members of your brigade, did it also apply
5 to the facilities which enjoyed special protection by the army?
6 A. Can you please repeat the question. I didn't understand your
8 Q. You said that these facilities were under your protection. So
9 you were responsible for them. I would like to know whether the
10 prosecution of persons who attacked facilities of the army, were they
11 also your responsibility, or were they not your responsibility? Was
12 that -- were they your responsibility?
13 A. Yes, I believe that they were our responsibility, to protect our
15 Q. Thank you very much. With regard to the fact that you reported
16 members of a different brigade, did you inform the respective brigade if
17 that was at all possible?
18 A. I can only respond to that from the point of view of my job. I
19 was a legal officer. I was ordered to do things, and I did them
20 accordingly. My superior and his superior in turn were informed what I
21 did. Whether they informed the brigade in a question about the crime
22 committed by their members, I can't respond to that question.
23 Q. I would like to talk about your knowledge as to the fact whether
24 the mujahedin could pass the HVO points or not. Did you ever learn who
25 the mujahedin bought their arms from?
1 A. At that time, weapons can only be obtained on black market. As
2 far as I know, from rumours, they obtained weapons from members of the
3 HVO or from the Serbian side. They couldn't obtain it from Muslims
4 because Muslims didn't have any. And why? Why would they obtain it from
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you have the
8 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry. The question Your Honours have asked was
9 relating to checkpoints, not relating to the buying of weapons by the
10 mujahedin. This is a completely new topic.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. However,
12 there's a little point here. I said they drove around in their vehicle,
13 and they were armed. Maybe that is the origin of the question. The
14 question is very indirect; however, he has answered.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll have another direct
17 Q. Among the members of the army, were there certain rumours that it
18 was in the interests of the HVO to support the presence of the mujahedin
19 in the area?
20 A. I can just share my opinion with you.
21 Q. I just asked you whether you knew it or not. If you didn't, fair
23 A. I only know that -- I can only give you my opinion.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you have the
1 MR. NEUNER: Sorry for interrupting again, but Your Honours have
2 asked a question relating the passing of a checkpoint by a car with
3 mujahedin. And whether, as my learned colleague has just asked, there
4 were certain rumours within the army that it was in the interest of the
5 HVO to support the presence of mujahedin, the Prosecution cannot recall
6 that such a question has been asked by Your Honours.
7 In addition to this, my learned friend is leading her own
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It was a leading question.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team, please.
14 We have already surpassed the time that we have.
15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any questions,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to thank
18 you. For a moment, it looked as if you would have to stay the weekend.
19 However, we were able to finish your testimony. We would like to thank
20 you for answering all the questions put to you. I wish you a happy
21 journey back home and success in your career.
22 I'm going to ask the usher to accompany you out of the courtroom.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am looking at the Defence.
1 Unfortunately, your second witness could not have been heard today. He
2 will have to pass the weekend in The Hague. I hope the weekend will be
3 pleasant for him. And we will hear this witness on Monday at quarter
4 past 2.00.
5 At this point in time, does the Defence wish to say something?
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We understand the situation. The
7 witness is here. He will stay until Monday. Since our witness that has
8 been scheduled for Monday is a doctor who is going to testify about very
9 limited circumstances, I hope that we will be able to make up for the
10 time due to the fact that we did not have a witness that we could bring
11 in on Wednesday.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You have
13 shown the witness five documents. Do you want to tender these documents
14 into evidence?
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender documents
16 number 1444, 1448, 1455, and 1456, and 1266 because four of these
17 documents were drafted by the witness himself, and he was aware of the
18 document relative to the training of officers in the army units and in
19 his brigade as well.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Prosecution.
21 MR. NEUNER: We have shown the witness also a new document. And
22 the witness has read from it. It was relating his position, and we would
23 like to tender this document into evidence.
24 And in addition, we don't have any objections to the Defence
25 tendering their documents into evidence.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any objections to
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can you please
4 give us five numbers for the Defence and one for the Prosecution.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The documents will be admitted as
6 DH1444, and the English version will be DH1444/E.
7 DH1448; and the English version, 1448/E.
8 DH1455; English version, DH1455/E.
9 DH1456; the English version DH1456/E.
10 And finally, DH1266; and the English version DH1266/E.
11 As far as the Prosecution document is concerned, the Registrar
12 notes that only one part of the document has been translated into
13 English, and it is admitted as B/C/S version P935, and the partial
14 translation into English will be P935/E. Thank you very much, Mr.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to say that during
17 the testimony of this witness, a name was mentioned. I believe that we
18 should have been in private session. Maybe the witness wants to be
19 protected. We don't know.
20 If there are no other issues to raise, I would like to adjourn,
21 and I invite all of you to come back on Monday at quarter past 2.00.
22 Thank you very much.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day of
25 November, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.