Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11202

1 Friday, 5 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, could we have the

10 appearances, please.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

12 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

13 Prosecution, Mathias Neuner, Daryl Mundis, and Andres Vatter, the case

14 manager.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have the

16 appearances for Defence counsel.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President, good

18 morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina

19 Residovic; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Muriel Cauvin, our legal

20 assistant. Thank you.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

22 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, Rodney Dixon, and Nermin

23 Mulalic, our legal assistant.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to greet everyone

25 present, the Prosecution, Defence Counsel, the accused, and everyone else

Page 11203

1 in the courtroom. We have two witnesses scheduled for today. Let's hope

2 that we'll be able to conclude their testimony today. Otherwise, the

3 second witness will have to stay until next Monday. This is a

4 possibility that I exclude a priori, but one never knows.

5 When a party shows a document the witness, we have noticed that

6 the other party tends to object if they do not see what the relation

7 between the witness and the document is. If there is no link, in fact,

8 that could be problematic. But the party that wants to proceed in this

9 manner, they should at least show that there is an indirect link, if

10 there isn't a direct one. And if so, they should ask the Trial Chamber

11 to grant them leave to ask the question. Otherwise, we'll waste a lot of

12 time.

13 As you know, the Trial Chamber has always been fairly liberal and

14 has -- when a question is put, we don't know what the purpose of the

15 question might be. It might seem that the question doesn't make sense in

16 relation to the document, but given the questions that follow, we might

17 see the connection. This is why if an objection is made at the beginning

18 of a question, we might later realise that the objection is groundless.

19 But I would like to ask the parties to inform the Chamber of their

20 intention to ask a question if the question is indirectly linked to a

21 document. They should then explain why they want to ask the question.

22 They should ask for leave, and we'll proceed in this manner. Otherwise,

23 we'll waste a lot of time. I wanted to inform you of this to ensure that

24 we can proceed as best as possible.

25 With regard to Monday, the 15th of November, if the witnesses and

Page 11204

1 the accused do not wish to be present here, then in such a case, it would

2 be appropriate to say that there will no hearing on Monday, the 15th.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for what

4 you have just informed us of. I would like to inform the Chamber that

5 the Defence counsel has witnesses for Monday and for the other days of

6 the week. But in accordance with the rights of the accused, we would

7 like you to make the final decision as to whether we will be working on

8 Monday. This will ensure that their rights are respected.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But as I said, on Monday, the

10 16th -- correction, 15th of November, there won't be a hearing. There

11 won't be a hearing on Monday, the 15th of November. Defence counsel may

12 rest assured.

13 Could the usher now call the witness into the courtroom, please.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. Could you tell

16 me whether you're receiving interpretation of what I'm saying. If so,

17 please say yes.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you. Could the

19 volume be put down a bit.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The usher will do

21 that for you, the usher who is standing next to you.

22 So before you testify here, and before you take the solemn

23 declaration, could you please give me your first and last names, your

24 date of birth, and your place of birth.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Haris Jusic. I was born

Page 11205

1 on the 24th of March 1958 in the village of Pode in Travnik Municipality.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. What is your

3 current profession?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work in the pension insurance

5 company at the moment.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993, did you hold

7 a position, a military or civilian position? And if so, what kind of

8 position did you hold?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until the end of 1992, I was

10 employed in a civilian company.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in 1993?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in 1993, when I was no longer

13 able to work, I became a member of the BH Army.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What rank did you have? What

15 were your duties? And which brigade were you in?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I worked in the brigade. I

17 was involved in legal matters. I was an officer in the security organ of

18 the 306th Mountain Brigade.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified

20 before an international or a national court about the events that took

21 place in your country in 1992 and 1993, or is this the first time?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could you please

24 read out the text of the solemn declaration.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 11206

1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.

3 Before Defence commences its examination-in-chief, which will

4 last for about an hour, I would like to provide you with some

5 information. You have just taken the solemn declaration and said that

6 you will speak the truth, which means that you shouldn't give false

7 testimony which is punishable. Secondly, you should be aware that when

8 answering questions, the information you provide cannot subsequently be

9 used against you. The Rules grant you a form of immunity when

10 testifying.

11 The questions might appear complicated. If you don't understand

12 a question, ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it. If the

13 Judges before you don't have any written documents, we don't know who you

14 are, what you may have done or what you may have seen. It is what you

15 say when answering the questions that will inform us. That's why your

16 questions are so important. In addition, you might be shown documents

17 and asked about these documents by the parties examining you. So don't

18 be surprised if you are asked to read a document and comment on it.

19 The three Judges before you may at any point in time ask you

20 questions, too. As a rule, the Judges prefer to wait for the parties to

21 conclude their examination, but in certain circumstances we may intervene

22 and ask you some questions. Roughly speaking, this is how we will be

23 proceeding.

24 As we don't have much time today, since there is a second witness

25 who will be following you, I will give the floor to the Defence

Page 11207












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Page 11208

1 immediately.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jusic.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. In addition to the explanations provided to you by the President

9 of the Trial Chamber, Mr. Jusic, I would like to ask you to make a break

10 between my question and your answer. We both speak the same language,

11 and my question needs to be translated for the Trial Chamber and all the

12 others present in the courtroom. Are you clear on that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where did you reside at the beginning of the war in April 1992?

15 A. In April 1992, I resided in the village of Pode, Travnik

16 Municipality.

17 Q. You said that you worked in a civilian company. Can you please

18 give us the name of that company and where was it based.

19 A. It was the Sebesic timber company based in Travnik, and my

20 workplace was in the sawmill in Nova Bila.

21 Q. Mr. Jusic, what are you by profession and where did you acquire

22 your education?

23 A. I have a degree in law, and I graduated from the school of law in

24 Sarajevo.

25 Q. Before the war, did you serve in the army? Which army did you

Page 11209

1 serve in and if you did serve, what rank did you obtain?

2 A. Yes. Before the war, I served in the former Yugoslav People's

3 Army. I was a foot soldier there. I did not have a rank.

4 Q. To the question put to you by the President of the Trial Chamber,

5 you've told us that once you could no longer work you joined the ranks of

6 the BiH Army, and that you became a member of the 306th Brigade. Tell

7 me, please, what position did you hold? What tasks and duties did you

8 have in that brigade?

9 A. Yes. I said that my company was based in Nova Bila. Nova Bila

10 is a Croatian village in the vicinity of Travnik. Since the

11 relationships deteriorated towards the end of 1992 between Muslims and

12 Croats, my then director told me that it would be best for me not to come

13 for work because he could not guarantee my safety. I felt that myself,

14 and I acted accordingly. I was sent home to wait. And since I resided

15 in my village in 1992, I was in my native village. And as far as I know,

16 the 306th Brigade was established towards the end of 1992. And obviously

17 as a citizen, I was duty-bound to join that brigade.

18 Q. Mr. Jusic, where was the command of your brigade? Where did you

19 perform your duties as the official in that brigade?

20 A. The brigade command was in the administrative building of the

21 coal mine in Bila. And up to the armed conflicts between the BiH Army

22 and the HVO, every day I would go to work to that administrative building

23 that belonged to the coal mine, save for the days on which I was sent

24 somewhere else to perform tasks.

25 Q. What were your main tasks and duties as a legal officer in that

Page 11210

1 security body?

2 A. Given my professional degree, I mostly performed the so-called

3 administrative tasks. I would draft documents that were necessary.

4 Those were purely legal tasks. I would be in charge of drafting some

5 legal enactments, as necessary.

6 Q. Since your village -- no, let me rephrase that. What is the name

7 of the general area in which your village, Pode, is situated? Or the

8 place called coal mine where you performed your tasks?

9 A. The entire area is known as the Bila region or the region of the

10 Bila River. There is a little river there, its name is Bila. And that

11 river gave the name to the entire area encompassing all the villages on

12 both banks of that little river.

13 Q. Thank you. At that time, at the beginning of 1993 when you

14 started performing your duties in the 306th Brigade, did you notice some

15 foreigners from African and Asian countries appearing in the Bila region?

16 A. I told you that I could no longer work and I had to do something.

17 It was my civic duty. And that's how I started working in my brigade.

18 At that time, when I started working in my brigade, I didn't know

19 anything about these people of Asian origin. However, I would come

20 across them. I would see them from time to time.

21 Q. Did you personally know where these people came from? And since

22 you saw them, can you tell the Trial Chamber what they looked like.

23 A. I didn't know anything about them. I did see them. They were a

24 bit unusual. They had a different skin colour. Their skin was somewhat

25 darker. They minded their own business. I did not come into any contact

Page 11211

1 with them, either at that time or later, up to this very day.

2 Q. Are you aware of the name that people started calling them at one

3 point in time?

4 A. Yes. The popular name that people gave them was the mujahedin.

5 Q. You are a lawyer, and as you've already told us, you were in

6 charge of legal affairs. Before the war, did you know anything about who

7 the mujahedin are and what is the meaning of that word?

8 A. One might say that I didn't know anything about the mujahedin. I

9 might have heard something on TV or on the TV news. I might have heard

10 the name mentioned, but I didn't understand the concept.

11 Q. Although you have never had any contacts with these people and

12 you didn't know anything about them before that, did you ever at that

13 time or later on think about the reason for which these foreigners might

14 have arrived in the Bila region and in the area around Travnik?

15 A. Yes. As a human being, I did think about that in the situation

16 when the security deteriorated, and everybody had to look after

17 themselves and their own life and safety. All of a sudden, people of a

18 different skin colour came there, and I did not have a proper explanation

19 for that, why this was happening.

20 Q. Thank you. At any point in time, did you learn about the

21 whereabouts of these people, where they were billeted?

22 A. At the beginning, I didn't know where they were billeted. I

23 wasn't interested in that. However, as I was a member of the brigade

24 throughout the entire 1993 up to the mid-1994, I did learn where they

25 were located, where they were accommodated.

Page 11212

1 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where they stayed, where their

2 camp was.

3 A. In my area, in the Bila region, they were accommodated in

4 Poljanice village in the abandoned Serbian houses.

5 Q. Up to June while performing your duties, did you ever go to the

6 village of Mehurici? And if you did go there, where did you go? Did you

7 ever visit the school in Mehurici?

8 A. Mehurici is not far from my village, the village where I was

9 born. And it is not far from the place where the administrative building

10 of the coal mine is. However, I didn't go to Mehurici, save for maybe on

11 one or two occasions during the sixth time -- six-month period from the

12 beginning of 1993 up to June 1993.

13 I remember that I did go once. I didn't visit the school. I

14 know that for a fact. On one occasion, I visited my colleague, the

15 security officer of the 1st Battalion. He was accommodated in the house

16 belonging to Ferid Jasarevic. This man had left the area in 1991 and

17 moved to Austria together with his family. His house was therefore

18 abandoned. It was rather big, and this is where the offices of my

19 colleague from the 1st Battalion were. This building is at the very

20 entrance to the village of Mehurici. I didn't go up to the school, but I

21 know exactly where the school is.

22 Q. At that time, Mr. Jusic, did you know of any battalion of the

23 306th that was billeted in the school? If there was such a battalion,

24 could you tell us which battalion it was.

25 A. I was not well informed of any of those things. However, I can

Page 11213












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Page 11214

1 say that all of these buildings that were not privately owned, all the

2 schools, and there were quite a few of them in the Bila region, were used

3 either for the accommodation of refugees or for the accommodation of

4 military formations.

5 Q. While you were visiting your colleague, the security officer, in

6 Mehurici or on any other occasion, did you learn whether members of the

7 army or anybody else could freely enter the camp of the foreigners in

8 Poljanice?

9 A. At that time, I did not discuss these people. At that time, they

10 were not important. They were not a topic of our discussion. At that

11 time, I did not even know exactly where they were located. This was

12 prior to the conflict. So we did not discuss them. I don't even know

13 whether at that time they were there or not. Maybe they were somewhere

14 else, but I wouldn't know that.

15 Q. In the first half of 1993, at the time when you joined the 306th

16 Brigade, did you learn from any of the conversations in the command or

17 other people that these foreigners were trying to get closer to the local

18 population, or did you maybe learn about some problems involving these

19 foreigners?

20 A. I've already said that I was never in any contact with these

21 people. I was never close to them. However, in my conversations with my

22 colleagues and other people, I did hear that these foreigners were trying

23 to get closer to the local population, that they offered them certain

24 things. I must say that the conditions that they offered them were much

25 better than the ones that the army could provide for these people. Some

Page 11215

1 locals finally did get in touch with them and cooperated with them, so to

2 speak.

3 Q. Mr. Jusic, please tell me, in the area where your command was and

4 where members of your brigade were, were there any other military

5 formations there which did not belong to the BiH Army?

6 A. Yes. Up to the moment when the conflict broke out between the

7 BiH Army and the HVO, in that area there were also members of the HVO.

8 They were in their own villages, and the villages were either

9 mixed - that is to say, the houses were mixed, they were close to each

10 other - or they were in their own villages. Up to the moment when the

11 conflict broke out, members of the HVO were in their houses. They moved

12 about. I didn't know much about their movements. However, up to the

13 moment the conflict broke out, they were there.

14 Q. At any point in time, Mr. Jusic, were there any incidents

15 involving the BiH Army and the HVO in that area? What was the freedom of

16 movement like? Did you witness any of those situations?

17 A. Unfortunately, there were quite a number of incidents. Towards

18 the end of 1992, I could no longer go to work, to the company that I used

19 to work for. My director, who was a Croat, told me that my security was

20 jeopardised, that my safety could not be guaranteed because the HVO had

21 put up a check -- checkpoints on all the three exits from the Bila

22 region. On the road towards Zenica, there was a checkpoint on Ovnak. It

23 was manned by quite a few armed members of the HVO. At the beginning,

24 these people just stood there. Then they started checking papers, and

25 then finally they started prohibiting every movement. The same situation

Page 11216

1 existed in Zabilje on the way to Vitez, and the same situation existed on

2 the road to Travnik in Guca Gora. That means that the Muslim/Bosniak

3 population was completely blocked. At the beginning, we could move

4 around and travel, and after that, buses were forbidden passage. Private

5 vehicles could still move about. And then on the eve of the conflict,

6 nobody could exit the area.

7 In addition to this region being blocked in that way, it was

8 intersected by Croatian villages that we didn't dare go into unless we

9 had to. If we could avoid entering Croatian villages, we did that rather

10 than get involved in incidents. Before the conflict, people would get

11 killed in their fields, on the roads.

12 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Jusic. I believe that you have

13 described the situation pretty well. We've had other witnesses who have

14 described the situation for us. I asked you whether you personally

15 witnessed any ill treatment. Were you personally ill treated as a member

16 of the command of the 306th Brigade?

17 A. Yes. Unfortunately this happened to me, too, in mid-May 1993.

18 As I have already said, our command was in the administration building of

19 the mine. Every evening we would return home, apart from those who

20 couldn't do so because of their duties. A van transported us from the

21 mine to Mehurici, brought us back in the evening. And in the morning, we

22 would go to the command again in the same van. In mid-May 1993, on the

23 14th or 15th, as far as I can remember --

24 Q. Could you please speak up, Mr. Jusic, please.

25 A. In mid-May 1993, on the 14th or 15th, I can't remember the exact

Page 11217

1 date, we went off in the same van that we used to return to our homes

2 with. And in the immediate vicinity of the command, the exit from a

3 Croatian place called Baje, we were intercepted by a passenger vehicle, a

4 private vehicle in which there were four HVO members who were fully

5 armed. They forced us out of the van, and there was also a small TAM

6 lorry which was privately owned. And the brigade members and the driver

7 of that lorry were arrested, imprisoned at the same time. They forced us

8 to lie down on our stomachs on the grass, and they cursed us and insulted

9 us. They used the most insulting terms, the ugliest terms. And they

10 took all our clothes, all the new clothes that we were wearing. They

11 even took the shoes off one of our men. And the worst thing was that

12 there was a man behind us who was cursing us, and he was pointing his

13 rifle at us, which was loaded. This is what frightened us the most. The

14 feeling I had at the time was terrible.

15 Luckily, this did not last very long. It lasted as long as the

16 four of them needed to take our things. As I said, to take all our

17 clothes, which were new, to take the TAM lorry, and to take our van.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jusic. Where were you on the 8th of June 1993?

19 A. On the 8th of June 1993, I was in my village, in my house, in the

20 house I was living in at the time.

21 Q. Did you hear that there were any large-scale armed conflicts in

22 the Bila Valley?

23 A. About a week before the armed clashes, I was sent to a forward

24 command post on Vlasic. So for the last week, I was not in the Bila area

25 because this position on Mount Vlasic is at least 20 kilometres away from

Page 11218

1 the nearest village. When I returned, and this is why I was in my

2 village, when I returned -- well, when one left the forward command post,

3 one would go home and have a bit of a rest, have a bath and so on.

4 That's why I was in the village then, and I had no duties at any time. I

5 was practically on leave.

6 Q. Mr. Jusic, did you ever leave the village after the 8th, and did

7 anyone give you a task of any kind?

8 A. A couple of days later, when the armed conflict calmed down and

9 when I thought that I could go to the place where I was supposed to work

10 safely, I then went to this workplace because in the meantime I had heard

11 that the command was no longer in one place after the armed conflict had

12 broken out. I found out that I was to go to Mehurici. I found out that

13 there was work for me in Mehurici. So I reported to work in the village

14 of Mehurici. I went to the school there.

15 Q. What sort of task were you assigned at the time?

16 A. My task was to take statements from the local people, imprisoned

17 Croats who were accommodated in the Mehurici school.

18 Q. Who did you, in fact, interview? Were there any criteria that

19 were followed when interviewing people? Were you to interview everyone

20 there, or was your task to interview certain people?

21 A. My task was to take statements from the people who were there.

22 They could have been military conscripts. The criteria that was to be

23 followed was that we were to interview people who were between 20 and 60

24 years of age, the Croatian people who were there, women, children, and if

25 there were any old people there were not interviewed by me [as

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Page 11220

1 interpreted].

2 Q. How many people did you take statements from when carrying out

3 this task?

4 A. Well, I don't know the exact number. But about 30 people, give

5 or take a few.

6 Q. Where did you take these statements?

7 A. I did this in an office which was in the same school. And the

8 people were kept in the hall.

9 Q. What did you ask these people about?

10 A. Well, I asked them about matters that might generally interest

11 the military. I asked them whether they were HVO members; if they were,

12 I asked them which brigade they had been in, who their commander was. If

13 they knew, I would write this down, but on the whole they didn't know. I

14 also asked them about the weapons they had, but I didn't obtain any

15 important information about these things.

16 But I obtained important information about whether they knew

17 where mines had been laid and unexploded devices at positions around

18 their villages. And on that occasion, we found out certain information.

19 We removed a significant number of those mines and unexploded devices. I

20 saw a small tractor. It was full of such devices. And that was the

21 first time I saw explosives packed in a form that resembled salami.

22 Q. Mr. Jusic, tell me whether you knew those people, or at least

23 some of them, since they were neighbours of yours?

24 A. Yes. That's what hurt me the most. I knew most of those people.

25 We had lived together, went to school together, used the same buses,

Page 11221

1 worked in the same clinics, in the same factories. There had never been

2 any problems among us. Now, all of a sudden, I was on one side; they

3 were on another. This affected me as a man, but I performed my duties.

4 Q. Mr. Jusic, tell me, how did you interview them? When

5 interviewing these people, were they threatened or was force used? Or

6 did you obtain the information you have just mentioned in any particular

7 way?

8 A. I can't say whether anyone used force when interviewing these

9 people before I appeared. But when I interviewed these people, I did not

10 use force. And as I have said, they were neighbours of mine with whom I

11 had lived and with whom I had been on extremely good terms.

12 Q. If I have understood you correctly, you spoke to them and treated

13 them as people you knew well. You treated them as your neighbours and

14 friends. Is that what you're saying?

15 A. Yes, that's exactly what I am saying.

16 Q. Could you tell me, please, how long you were involved in these

17 interviews; when did you finish with this work of yours?

18 A. Well, perhaps for five to seven days.

19 Q. Do you know whether at that time anyone from the Red Cross came

20 or anyone from international organisations? And were any objections

21 raised about the way in which these people were treated?

22 A. I didn't have any contact with such persons, but I do know that

23 people from international humanitarian organisations came. And as far as

24 I know, there were no objections concerning the accommodation and the

25 conditions those people were in.

Page 11222

1 Q. Who took care of food and accommodation? Who took care of the

2 security of those people while you were there?

3 A. When I arrived there, security was provided by the civilian

4 police, whereas food, as far as I know, was provided by the civilian

5 protection. They ate the same food that we did.

6 Q. In the course of the interviews that you conducted, did any of

7 the people you interviewed complain about maltreatment, or were you able

8 to observe traces of physical maltreatment on them?

9 A. I'm not aware of such cases. None of them informed me of such

10 cases. But believe me, I would have taken measures if I had had

11 information about such incidents.

12 Q. Tell me, as far as you knew, did those people have adequate

13 medical treatment? Were they provided with adequate medical treatment?

14 A. As far as medical treatment is concerned, I think it was

15 adequate. And quite by chance, their doctor was with them. If I'm not

16 mistaken, her name was (redacted). She was with them in the immediate

17 vicinity. She was given an office which was part of the hall they were

18 kept in. I have been to that office. I've seen (redacted) there. I could

19 see that she had medicine, medical supplies. I was present when she was

20 giving them instructions of some kind. I think she was telling them to

21 drink more liquid, et cetera. So I think that the medical treatment they

22 were provided with was adequate.

23 Q. Mr. Jusic, when performing your duties did you ever find out why

24 those people had been taken to that gym and why they were kept in the gym

25 in the primary school?

Page 11223

1 A. Well, I could mention two main reasons for which the people had

2 been taken from their homes and placed in the gym. The first reason is

3 that the HVO had attacked the Velika Bukovica village. That was before

4 the 8th of June. It was on the 4th or 5th of June. And all the Muslim

5 and Bosniak population from that village, 87 of them, were taken first to

6 Nova Bila and then to Busovaca. And they were taken away as prisoners.

7 So that's the first reason for which people of Croatian nationality were

8 gathered in one place. The main reason was to proceed with an exchange

9 when the conditions were right.

10 The second reason, which for me is more important than the first

11 one, the second reason is that if people had remained in their houses, in

12 such a case, there could have been incidents of various kinds. People

13 could have been killed by various individuals for various reasons. And

14 also because of the presence of the mujahedin themselves, who were in

15 such a state at the time that even we, the local population, were a

16 little frightened of them.

17 Q. Thank you very much. You have now mentioned the reasons. But I

18 would like to know where you went after you had finished interviewing

19 those 30 people. Were you assigned any other tasks?

20 A. When this job was completed, I was sent to join the main body of

21 the command which was in Krpeljici. I would call it a main body of the

22 command because up there, I found the commander. This is where I was

23 sent to work.

24 Q. Now, can you please tell me whether you took any statements from

25 anybody up there and who these people were.

Page 11224

1 A. Yes. They were Croats up there as well. They were also

2 accommodated in two different places. There was a building which we

3 called the youth centre, and this is where they were accommodated, but

4 not as many of them as in Mehurici. And there was also another house

5 where they were because they could not all fit in one building. This

6 second house was of a smaller size. So these people were accommodated in

7 a Croatian house. I can't remember who the owner of that house was.

8 Q. Mr. Jusic, did there come a time when you started taking

9 statements from Bosniaks as well? And when you started doing that, were

10 statements taken under the same conditions, or did you treat people

11 differently?

12 A. I was taking statements from ones and the others, and therefore I

13 can confirm this and say that I took statements from Bosniaks whose

14 families had been taken to Busovaca. When the exchange finally took

15 place, I took statements from those who returned from those places where

16 the HVO had kept them.

17 Q. Mr. Jusic, did you personally ever get involved in the -- in any

18 of the exchanges? Were you ever consulted on any of the exchanges?

19 A. I was never involved in an exchange. I never had any contacts

20 from anybody from the international organisations regarding exchanges. I

21 didn't have contacts with people from the international organisation on

22 any of the issues. I was an official in the brigade, and I did what my

23 superiors told me to do.

24 Q. You continued working in the 306th in the security body, and

25 according to some information, after the combat operations, there was

Page 11225












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Page 11226

1 plundering and burning buildings in the general area. Did you have any

2 information about these incidents? Do you know who the perpetrators

3 were? Did you in the security body undertake any measures against the

4 perpetrators?

5 A. Unfortunately, there were such situations, and there was plunder.

6 Houses were set on fire. We did take measures against members of our own

7 brigade.

8 Q. What measures were those?

9 A. The commander would order people to be remanded in custody. When

10 we discovered perpetrators, we would take statements and so on and so

11 forth.

12 Q. Although you are a lawyer by profession, before you did these

13 things, were you ever involved in criminal investigation or any similar

14 thing?

15 A. No. I was never involved in any military or police business or

16 law enforcement business. When I joined the army, I was given this job

17 because of my degree, because of my profession. I don't know whether I

18 was successful or not, but I do think that I did well.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like the

20 witness to be shown a few documents. I would kindly ask Madam Usher to

21 give the documents to the witness, and this would bring my

22 examination-in-chief to an end.

23 Q. Mr. Jusic, can you please look at this document bearing number

24 1444. Do you recognise this document?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 11227

1 Q. Who was it signed by?

2 A. I'm the one who signed this document.

3 Q. Is this one of the documents that testify to the fact that you

4 remanded in custody members of your brigade for whom it had been

5 established that they were involved in theft?

6 A. Yes, this is precisely so.

7 Q. Can you please look at the following document, 1448. Is this

8 also one of your documents that you drafted?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is this one of the ways in which you dealt with the perpetrators

11 of criminal acts? Is this how you informed the competent prosecutor's

12 office of the crime?

13 A. Yes. First, the military police would carry out investigation,

14 collect information, and then they would inform me. I would process this

15 information. And whenever there were elements for criminal report, I

16 would draft a criminal report. The person would be remanded in custody.

17 This was a situation in which people from Krpeljici had to be escorted to

18 Travnik. It would not be usual for me to sign this. It would be my

19 commander or assistant commander who signed such documents. However, if

20 they were not present and something had to be done, I was the one who

21 signed these documents.

22 Q. Mr. Jusic, you said you have a degree in law, and you were in

23 charge of legal affairs. Was there anybody else in your legal body who

24 had any legal knowledge or knowledge of the police work, the security

25 work?

Page 11228

1 A. I can say that none of us had the necessary knowledge and

2 experience to perform these duties. As far as I know, in the body that I

3 worked in, nobody had that experience. Only one person had been a member

4 of the military police as far as I remember. The rest of us were

5 amateurs, laymen.

6 Q. In the brigade or in the army, was there any training of soldiers

7 and officers? Were you aware of any training organised for soldiers and

8 officers?

9 A. Yes, I am aware of some training because people became members of

10 the brigade and its bodies without ever having dreamt of having to do

11 that. However, the situation was as it was. We had to do things, and I

12 know that measures were being taken by the superior commands to organise

13 courses and training in order to teach people how to perform duties.

14 Q. Can you please look at Document 1455. That's document number 3.

15 Can you please look at it and tell me whether this was one of the ways of

16 organising education for the staff members ranging from company further

17 up.

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. When you discovered perpetrators, you would take disciplinary

20 measures or you would file a criminal report. Did you have any

21 difficulties when you wanted to find out who the perpetrators were, and

22 what was the cause of those difficulties?

23 A. We met with all sorts of difficulties. Nothing was simple in our

24 work. From the simplest things -- for example, there was no paper, there

25 was nothing to write on or with. We didn't have petrol, so we could not

Page 11229

1 drive to the place where the crime was committed. We didn't have

2 personnel that would provide security if that was necessary. We met with

3 all sorts of problems. And in such an impossible situation, we did to

4 the best of our abilities in order to prevent all sorts of crime. The

5 situation was impossible; however, we worked to the best of our abilities

6 in order to elucidate crimes, discover perpetrators, and punish them.

7 Q. Were there cases of impersonation or groups appearing without any

8 documents whose identity could not be established? If there were such

9 cases, did you take any measures against those people?

10 A. There were all sorts of cases. Our mission was impossible. For

11 example, after having performed their shifts, people did not go back to

12 the barracks. They went back to their homes. So they would spend some

13 time on the lines performing military duties and after their shift, they

14 would be free for up to seven days. For example, they would spend seven

15 days on the line and seven days at home on leave. And during those

16 periods where they were on leave, these people would move about. They

17 would do all sorts of things. We tried to prevent that as much as we

18 could.

19 Q. Can you please look at Document Number 1456. This is a document

20 sent by the 3rd Corps to the assistants for security of all the brigade.

21 Since you were a member of the security of your brigade, were you aware

22 of these measures that were suggested or ordered by this document of the

23 3rd Corps?

24 A. I am aware of these cases, and such cases. That's why the

25 document of this nature was sent, in order to prevent such cases. For

Page 11230

1 example, a person is a member of a unit and gets this unit's ID number.

2 And then for various reasons - for example, their families would want to

3 move - we had a lot of refugees and displaced persons who moved quite a

4 lot within the territory of one municipality or several municipalities.

5 For example, we had people from Karaula. It's a village in Travnik

6 Municipality. They settled in the Bila region. They were members of the

7 306th Brigade, and then they left. But they continued wearing the

8 uniform and the ID card of their former brigade, the 312th Brigade. And

9 this brought all sorts of different situations.

10 Q. Mr. Jusic, could you please look at Document Number 5 and tell me

11 whether you are familiar with this document, first of all.

12 A. Yes, I am. I've already said something about the contents of

13 this document. This document was drafted at the moment when civilians,

14 women, children, and elderly from Velika Bukovica, a village which was

15 the first one to be attacked in the Bila region, returned from the

16 detention in Busovaca.

17 Q. This document speaks to treatment they were exposed to. People

18 whom you interviewed in Mehurici school, did they ever tell you about

19 being treated by BiH Army members in an appropriate way [sic]?

20 A. These people never told me that. And I wish to claim that they

21 were never treated in this way.

22 Q. And finally, Mr. Jusic, you've told us that it was the military

23 police that provided security for these people in the Mehurici school.

24 You were a member of the 306th Brigade. Can you tell me something about

25 the authorities? Were you authorised and have control over the army, the

Page 11231












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Page 11232

1 military police, or civilian police?

2 A. Are you referring to the measures that we took? The civilian

3 police was authorised to have control over the civilians, and we were

4 authorised to have control only over the army.

5 Q. Were ever the mujahedin under the control of the 306th Brigade?

6 Did you ever any authority over them?

7 A. At the beginning, I said that I never had contact of any kind

8 with the mujahedin. And if they had been members of our brigade, I would

9 have had contact with them. Without doubt.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] There is a mistake in the

11 translation of my question. It's page 25, line 18. I said at the end

12 "Mr. Jusic," -- I said "finally, Mr. Jusic, you said that the civilian

13 police provided security," whereas it says "the military police provided

14 security" in the transcript. So could this be corrected, please.

15 Thank you, Mr. Jusic, I have no more questions. Thank you, Mr.

16 President.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

19 We only have a few questions for Mr. Jusic.

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusic, you were born in the village of Pode

22 in the Bila Valley; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it's the village of Pode, whereas Podovi is a Croatian

24 village in vicinity. It in fact is the same thing. My village is

25 officially called Pode, but some maps in land registries it's referred to

Page 11233

1 as Podovi, but in fact the village is Pode.

2 Q. In 1993, you were a member of the 306th Brigade and you worked in

3 that brigade as a lawyer.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As a lawyer, a member of the 306th Brigade, since you spent 1993

6 in that area, I assume that you know whether there were any other BH Army

7 units that had been organised in the Bila Valley.

8 A. Yes. In addition to the 306th Brigade, there were -- or rather,

9 there was another brigade, the 314th Brigade. And I have said that there

10 were also HVO units.

11 Q. If I say that in 1993, especially in the spring and summer of

12 1993, in the region of Mehurici and in the region of the other villages

13 and in the Bila Valley, there were no units and no 7th Brigade Battalion,

14 you would agree with me, wouldn't you?

15 A. As far as I know, the 7th Muslim Brigade was never in that area.

16 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have another 10 minutes

18 before the break. I'll give the floor to the Prosecution now.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Neuner:

20 MR. NEUNER: Good morning, Mr. Jusic. My name is Mathias Neuner,

21 and I am representing the Prosecution here. I will put a few questions

22 to you now, and then we will have a break in a few minutes.

23 Your Honour, I will propose I put a few questions about the

24 documents now, and then take an early break. This will take only 2 or 3

25 minutes.

Page 11234

1 Q. If you look, please, at Document Number 1, again, Mr. Jusic, and

2 look under the heading "Reason." Is it fair to say that this decision

3 which you have in front of you relates to crime committed against the

4 ABiH?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If you turn now to please Document Number 2 in front of you.

7 Please look at page 1, number 6. And there it states, inter alia, "all

8 members of the 1st Battalion of the 325 Mountain Brigade." So the

9 perpetrators, and that's a question actually, the perpetrators were all

10 ABiH members?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And I have another question for you: If you please look in this

13 document now under the heading "Statement of Reasons." Do you find this?

14 A. I have.

15 Q. Did the perpetrators use a van belonging to the ABiH to commit

16 their crime?

17 A. That's what it says here, that they did.

18 Q. And the crime itself, was it committed in Guca Gora?

19 A. It was.

20 Q. And the date of the crime, this was September 1993; is this

21 correct?

22 A. Just a minute. Let me find the date. Yes.

23 MR. NEUNER: Your Honour, with your permission, I would ask to go

24 for an early break, and I would continue with my questioning thereafter.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's now 10.26. We'll resume

Page 11235

1 at 5 to 11.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may take the floor.


6 Q. Mr. Jusic, I want to continue where I just left you before the

7 break. I showed you a document about Guca Gora.

8 MR. NEUNER: And with the leave of the Chamber I would like to

9 show the Document P204 to the witness. This document is also relating to

10 Guca Gora. And on the addressee list under number 4, it's addressed to

11 the military police of the 306th. That's why I'm showing it to this

12 witness.

13 Q. If you look at the first paragraph, Mr. Jusic, it talks about

14 torching, and it talks about mass plunder, is it?

15 A. Should I have a look at it? Should I read it?

16 Q. Read it just -- just read the first paragraph above "Order"

17 please, for yourself, and if you could please briefly confirm that it

18 relates to torching and mass plunder. Just the first paragraph.

19 A. Yes, this section does refer to torching and mass plunder.

20 That's what it says.

21 Q. Thank you. And in the same sentence, it talks also about the

22 perpetrators, the perpetrators being members of the civilian population

23 and individual members of the BH Army. Am I correct?

24 A. Yes, that's what it says.

25 Q. And the document is stamped from the 18th of June. You can see

Page 11236

1 this on top. So some measures have been ordered on the 18th of June.

2 Since the area was taken over on the 8th of June already, why, if I may

3 ask you, and you were testifying on direct about this, why were measures

4 only taken on the 18th? Why not earlier?

5 A. Well, I can tell you what my opinion is. Measures were taken

6 before the 18th of June as well, but combat activity didn't cease on the

7 18th of June. Combat activities continued. The military police was

8 engaged in the course of combat on the whole in order to engage in

9 military action. But it wouldn't be true to say that they only started

10 taking measures on the 18th of June. Measures were taken before, to the

11 extent that this was possible.

12 Q. Thank you. I understand. Was there a curfew imposed earlier?

13 As you said, measures were taken earlier. Was there a curfew imposed in

14 order to stop people going out and taking goods from others?

15 A. I couldn't say that there was a curfew. But in a certain sense,

16 there was one because that was a combat zone, and it was very dangerous

17 to move around in the evening. From dusk to dawn, it was extremely

18 dangerous to move around. Whoever did so did so at his or her own risk.

19 Q. Just if you say yes or no: To your knowledge, was there an order

20 imposing a curfew in Guca Gora area given after the 8th of June?

21 A. I can neither confirm nor deny that, but I would sooner say no.

22 Q. Thank you. I want to talk a little bit about your background.

23 MR. NEUNER: And can I please ask the usher to show the witness a

24 document, a new document.

25 Q. If you look at the B/C/S version -- look at page 1, please, in

Page 11237












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Page 11238

1 the upper left-hand corner, it dates from February 1993, the document.

2 And if you look at the very, very end of the document, the last page,

3 please, for a second, it is signed by an officer for security affairs.

4 Can you please confirm this.

5 A. I haven't read the document, but on the basis of what I can see

6 at the beginning and the end, I would say that this is the first time

7 I've seen the document.

8 Q. If you look to page 6, please, of this document - I can show you

9 in a second why I'm showing you this document - under the heading "306

10 Brigade," please. You'll find your name there and your position.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you read the relevant section mentioning your name and then

13 onwards.

14 A. What do you mean, read it out aloud? Should I read it to myself?

15 Q. Just read your name out loud, and the sentence following.

16 A. "Jusic, Haris, the 24th of April 1998 [as interpreted], graduated

17 lawyer, an officer for legal matters will be engaged according to need."

18 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, 24th of March 1958 was the date.


20 Q. It says you were a security affairs officer and employed when

21 there was a need. Can you just explain what that means. You were

22 employed full time or you were employed less than full time? What does

23 this mean?

24 A. I think that there is a mistake here. While I was working, I

25 said worked until the end of 1992 in my company. And I was then engaged

Page 11239

1 according to need. And from the beginning of 1993, I started working

2 full time, so to speak, and that's the truth.

3 Q. Thank you for clarifying this. Who was your superior when you

4 worked full time?

5 A. Well, the assistant commander for security was my superior.

6 Q. Can you state his name, please, for the record.

7 A.Well, I can say what his name was, as it states here, Delalic, Asim, son of

8 Ramo.

9 Q. How many staff in the military security department were employed

10 at the time, spring, summer 1993? Just give a number. Just mention a

11 number, please.

12 A. You're referring to the department I was in, and just to that department?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. There were three, or rather four of us.

15 Q. Four persons. And in Mehurici, how many people were employed in

16 the military security organ in Mehurici, spring -- April to June, let's

17 say, 1993? Just give a number. In the 306 Brigade.

18 A. As far as I can remember, there was one person in each battalion.

19 We would call such persons security persons.

20 Q. Thank you. What was his name? The 1st Battalion of the 306 in

21 Mehurici, what was the name of the person, to your knowledge?

22 A. I find it difficult to remember names, but I think his name was

23 Hasan Zukanovic.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. NEUNER: Can the witness please be shown Document P661. And

Page 11240

1 for the Judges, for Your Honours, I wish to show this document because

2 the witness has testified on direct about the presence of the 7th Muslim

3 Mountain Brigade. And this document relates to it.

4 Q. The document dates from 6 April. And if you look at the second

5 paragraph, please. Does it mention the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

6 A. Could you give me time to read the paragraph.

7 This paragraph refers to individual members of the 7th Muslim

8 Brigade. I said that the 7th Muslim Brigade wasn't present in this area,

9 but there were individuals who were born in that area. They had their

10 houses there. They lived there, and they were members of the 7th Muslim

11 Brigade. And naturally, they would occasionally go home. And this is

12 how it was. That's my testimony.

13 Q. I want to ask you a few questions about Miletici, the Miletici

14 incident in April 1993. You said you were -- first of all, were you

15 involved in any direct way in the investigations relating to the Miletici

16 incident?

17 A. I know very little about this incident. I did not participate in

18 that event in any way. I didn't participate in anything leading up to

19 it. I didn't participate in it or anything that happened after it.

20 Q. Sir, I was just whether you participated in a direct way in an

21 investigation occurring thereafter. Did you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You said there were three other colleagues in the military

24 security department in the command, and one colleague in the military

25 security department in Mehurici. Did they participate in any

Page 11241

1 investigation?

2 A. As far as I know, no.

3 Q. Is it fair to summarise, then, that none of these four persons

4 participated in any investigation after the Miletici incident?

5 A. According to my information, that would be the case. I am

6 referring to the security department of the 306th Brigade.

7 Q. You're not referring to the 1st Battalion security department?

8 You don't know about the 1st Battalion security department?

9 A. I don't know. However, I assume if there had been an

10 investigation of any sort, I would have been informed about it.

11 Q. Sir, I want to move on to the incidents in the school of

12 Mehurici. You testified about this. To your knowledge -- first of all,

13 you were called by somebody to report to the school in order to do

14 interrogations. Who was telling you to come to the school and do some

15 interrogations?

16 A. It was my obligation to report to the command because that's

17 where I worked. I inquired as to where I was supposed to go and work

18 because the command was split into three different places. I was told to

19 go to Mehurici, and it was my superior, the assistant commander for

20 security, who told me to go there.

21 Q. Thank you. And arriving in Mehurici, to whom did you speak

22 first?

23 A. I really can't remember that. When I approached the school,

24 there were a lot of people there. I entered the school. I met with my

25 superiors, and then my superior told me to take statements from these

Page 11242

1 people. At that moment, I didn't know how many people there were, what

2 this was all about. He told me which people to take statements from. He

3 told me, "this is going to be your office, and this is where you are

4 going to work. We will organise for people to be brought to you one by

5 one. As soon as one statement is taken, the next person will be shown

6 in." And this is how I proceeded.

7 Q. So the superior to whom you spoke first, was he the assistant

8 commander for security in the 306? Your superior from Bila?

9 A. Yes. However, I can't state that he was the first I spoke to.

10 There were other people there. I may have talked to somebody else before

11 him. When it came to my work, I first spoke to him, to my superior from

12 the admin building of the coal mine in Bila.

13 Q. How long did your superior -- let me rephrase that, please. On

14 what day exactly did you arrive in Mehurici in June?

15 A. I really can't remember. It was after the 8th of June, maybe

16 three to four days after that date. But I can't be sure of that.

17 Q. And your superior, did he mention in the conversation you had

18 with him that he was arriving shortly before you or he was there already

19 for days?

20 A. We didn't discuss that. I wouldn't be able to give you a precise

21 answer to that question. After the conflict, the command was scattered,

22 ended up in three different places. At the moment of the conflict,

23 whether he was in Rudnik or in Mehurici, I really wouldn't know. But

24 those who had been in Krpeljici, they travelled from Travnik, and they

25 just could not go any further. And that's why they stayed put in

Page 11243












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Page 11244

1 Krpeljici.

2 Q. When you first spoke to your superior, you had the impression

3 that your superior was informed about what has happened earlier? I'm

4 referring to the -- why were people there and that people had been

5 killed.

6 A. Nobody was killed. Can you please clarify. Which killed people

7 are you referring to?

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence is on their feet.

9 I give you the floor.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness has already

11 intervened, the Prosecutor's question referred to something that the

12 witness has never said as having seen or heard or witnessed. The witness

13 himself intervened, so there's no need for my objection.

14 MR. NEUNER: I clarify this.

15 Q. I apologise, Witness. There were many people in the school, you

16 testified.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you know the reason why these people were in the school?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already answered

20 my question. According to him, there were two reasons, and I don't see

21 the need to repeat the same answers again.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't mind repeating the

23 reasons for you.


25 Q. Let me rephrase my question to be more precise. Had your

Page 11245

1 superior -- I'm talking now only about the persons, the Croat persons who

2 had been killed in the Maline-Bikose incident, no longer to the persons

3 in the school. Had your superior, by the time you spoke to him, heard

4 about this incident?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President -- Mr. President,

6 my objection stands. My learned friend should maybe first ask the

7 witness whether he has ever heard about this, and only then whether his

8 superior had ever heard of this.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are faced with a difficulty

10 here. Can you please proceed.


12 Q. Have you - I rephrase the question - ever heard that Croats on

13 the 8th of June had been killed by - I phrase it very abstractly - Muslim

14 forces? I don't want to indicate any unit or whatever. Have you heard

15 that 30 to 35 Croats had been killed on the 8th of June? In Maline.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could my learned friend be more

17 precise in his question. Such a wide-scoped name, "Muslim forces,"

18 doesn't mean anything. It can mean anything, the mujahedin, the army

19 from Herzegovina, certain members of the BiH Army, and so on and so

20 forth. So the question put in this way is absolutely vague. It's not

21 precise enough.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But the question does require a

23 reply. I'm going to ask the questions.

24 Witness, I'm going to raise this issue. When you met with your

25 superior who would give you the task of take statements from the people

Page 11246

1 who were accommodated in the school, at the moment when you met with him,

2 did you discuss with him the totality of the events that had taken place

3 in the area? Or did you only discuss the testimonies and statements of

4 these particular individuals? Can you please answer my question. What

5 was it all about?

6 My question is rather widely put, so it gives you the freedom to

7 say whatever. What do you have to say?

8 A. When I arrived in the school in Mehurici and when I met with my

9 superior, the only thing he told me was to take statements from the

10 people that would be brought to me by policemen, one at a time. We did

11 not engage in any other conversation. After that, he went somewhere. I

12 don't know where. I suppose, since the command was in a different

13 place --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Your superior

15 did not mention in this conversation with you what might have happened in

16 Miletici or in Maline. He never touched that topic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he didn't.

18 MR. NEUNER: Thank you for clarifying --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If after such a question, the

20 witness has said "yes," but the witness said "no." The only topic that

21 they discussed were the statements of the people in the school. This was

22 just a comment for the Prosecution.


24 Q. Did any of the 30 witnesses you interviewed talk about the fact

25 that at some point in time, people were separated from their column and

Page 11247

1 walked back? Or did they not mention anything at all in this regard on

2 the 8th of June?

3 A. At that moment, people answered my questions, and the answers

4 were recorded word for word. Nobody said anything to me about that.

5 Q. My last question relating to the killed Croats would be: Were

6 you aware about any investigation conducted at the time when you were

7 doing interviews? I mean by your colleagues who were there also. Did

8 you learn anything about investigative activity into such events?

9 A. Are you referring to the information that I got from the people

10 who were brought there, or are you speaking in general terms?

11 Q. I am speaking in general terms. You told me already the

12 witnesses didn't say anything. Your superior didn't say anything. But

13 maybe some of your colleagues who were on the spot as well, they were

14 engaged in some kind of investigation, and they might have mentioned

15 something.

16 A. At the very beginning, nobody mentioned anything to me. After a

17 certain time, I did hear about those questions. However, during the

18 period while I was taking the statements, I didn't know a thing.

19 Q. I will come in a second to who told you later. Just for the

20 record, so neither a member of the military security service you met

21 there in Mehurici after 8th of June nor a member of the military police

22 or a member of the civilian police ever mentioned any investigation going

23 on in relation to the killed Croats near Maline-Bikose.

24 A. That is correct. I was not aware of anything at that period.

25 Q. But you said later you learned about this. When was the first

Page 11248

1 time you learned about this and from whom, please?

2 A. It was maybe a month or so later. As to the person I heard it

3 from, I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

4 Q. Was this a work-related conversation where you learned about the

5 killing of the Croats, or was it just a private conversation?

6 A. It must have been a private, informal conversation. It was not

7 work related.

8 Q. Sir, would it be fair to say that the killing of Croats wasn't

9 discussed in the month following this incident? The killing of the

10 Croats wasn't discussed at work at all?

11 A. I cannot answer either by saying yes or by saying no. I said

12 that I had performed tasks given to me by my superior. I don't know

13 whether he or other people knew about it. I didn't have any such

14 information.

15 Q. I want to move to the questioning of detainees in the Mehurici

16 school. First of all, you testified that none of us or your colleagues

17 had any necessary knowledge before you came on the job. You came

18 basically -- let me rephrase that.

19 You testified on page 22, page 23 that none of your colleagues

20 had the necessary knowledge. Starting from there, you mentioned only one

21 military police officer had knowledge. What type of knowledge were you

22 referring to?

23 A. There were no educated officers, as far as I know. And as for

24 the knowledge that you're inquiring about, I believe that one had been a

25 military policeman in the former JNA, and this is the type of knowledge I

Page 11249












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Page 11250

1 was referring to.

2 Q. Did this military policeman transfer his knowledge to you or to

3 your other colleagues? Was there a kind of transfer of knowledge so that

4 you were in a position to do examinations?

5 A. First of all, I'm not even sure that he was a military policeman.

6 I just assumed that he was. And I'm referring to our assistant commander

7 for security. And obviously, whatever he knew, whatever he could convey

8 to us in terms of knowledge he did, as much as he could.

9 Q. So you also testified about training you received, I assume, in

10 international humanitarian law. So you would consider yourself being

11 qualified to do such interrogations with prisoners of war?

12 A. I did not have any trainings save for what I did at the

13 university in law school. However, when I was a student, I didn't even

14 dream of having to take part in the war. When I did that part of my

15 education, I just did it so as to be able to pass the exam. I didn't do

16 it really seriously, so to speak.

17 Q. Sir, if a prisoner of war would sit in front of you in the

18 Mehurici school, you testified you were talking to 30 persons --

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness never

20 mentioned that those were prisoners of war. He testified that he was

21 supposed to take statements from the able-bodied men who were there.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] However, the Prosecution has

23 put to the witness that he has a degree in law, and that during his

24 education he was educated on international law. The witness replied that

25 when they did that during the war, it was a different thing. From that,

Page 11251

1 the Prosecution - please look at line 10 - has put to the witness as

2 follows. They were going to ask him a legal question. He has a degree

3 in law, and they were going to ask him a question of a legal nature. And

4 by the answer, they could test the credibility of the witness because the

5 witness was in charge of all the legal and security affairs in the 306th

6 Brigade. It should be noted that in the document that you yourself

7 drafted, you even took a decision to detain somebody. And this was

8 signed by yourself, sir.

9 So the Chamber will allow the question of legal nature that the

10 Prosecution was going to put to this witness.


12 Q. Can you please answer the question.

13 A. If you're waiting for my answer, then I'd be grateful it you

14 could repeat your question.

15 Q. If you testified 30 persons were coming or were interviewed by

16 you in the Mehurici school, before you started that interview, what would

17 be the first information you put to this witness or to this person?

18 A. If such a person came to my office, I would naturally tell the

19 person to sit down, and I would then ask the person to give me his or her

20 particulars. I did this in case information was obtained via a criminal

21 report. This is why I took down the individual's particulars. Then I

22 asked the person some questions about what I already mentioned. We were

23 interested in what these people knew about HVO units, about weapons,

24 about mines and explosive devices. These are the sorts of questions that

25 I asked such individuals. Nothing else.

Page 11252

1 Q. Sir, wouldn't there be first a right of this prisoner of war?

2 Wouldn't you need to inform the person that he has a right as a prisoner

3 of war? Wouldn't that be the beginning?

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution is proceeding a

5 little too rapidly, perhaps. I'll put the question to you.

6 You carry out an investigation. You have someone before you who

7 you want to question. You're a legal officer. When you have someone

8 before you, the person has a certain status. Today, your status is that

9 of a witness. The individuals you had before you, what was their legal

10 status? What was the legal status of the individuals who were

11 questioned? These individuals apparently weren't free to leave as they

12 pleased because you yourself said that a civilian police platoon guarded

13 the facilities.

14 Could you tell us what the status of the people you questioned

15 was.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, these people had the same

17 status as the civilians who were accommodated there.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are saying that these

19 people had the status of the people who were accommodated there. If I

20 have understood you correctly, the Mehurici school was something like a

21 big hotel. They had been provided with accommodation there. But when

22 you're staying in a hotel, no one comes to ask you very precise questions

23 about how you lived, about who you had to report to, et cetera. The

24 questions that you asked these people, were these questions that

25 corresponded to the status of a woman, for example, who had a baby in her

Page 11253

1 arms? Were they questions that might be put to such a woman? How would

2 you define this status? This is what we are interested in.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have already said

4 that people had been provided with the best conditions we could provide

5 them with. They had the same sort of accommodation as the Muslims, the

6 Bosniaks, in the school in Han Bila. These were Muslims that had been

7 expelled from areas that were taken over by Serbs. So they had the same

8 sort of accommodation in the school in Mehurici as the Bosniaks did in

9 the school in Han Bila. We couldn't provide them with better

10 accommodation.

11 I said that we took statements from individuals who were there

12 and who were between 20 and 60 years of age. We believed that they might

13 be HVO members. This is why we took statements from them.

14 As for women, children, and the elderly, we didn't take any

15 statements from them. They were not questioned. No statements were

16 taken from these people.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If a person before you said,

18 "Sir, thank you for asking me these questions, but I'm going to leave

19 now. I'm going home," would it have been possible for this person to

20 leave the premises? That's my question.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it was war.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it was war. You know that

23 in wartime, people have a certain status. There are members of the

24 military and there are civilians. There is a law that is applied in

25 times of war. So my question is as follows: You're a legal officer, and

Page 11254

1 in the 306th Brigade, you're responsible for these legal matters. What

2 was the applicable law with regard to the people who were in this school?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The laws in force were the laws

4 that had been passed by the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or

5 rather, the laws in force were the laws that the Republic of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina had adopted. And I'm speaking as a lawyer now.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But according to the law of

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, civilians have the right to move around freely.

9 They can only be arrested if there is an investigation of a judicial

10 kind, and when they are guarded, as far as I can remember, they can only

11 be guarded for a three-day period. A judge has to authorise detention

12 for a period exceeding three days. That's usually the applicable law.

13 So I don't know how you interpret the law.

14 But the Prosecution has asked you a question, and the Judges are

15 asking you this question, too. The people kept in the school, what

16 rights did they have? What duties did they have? And what was it

17 possible for them to leave the premises? On a number of occasions, you

18 said that you had provided them with accommodation and that you provided

19 them with food. You should be aware of fact that we have received

20 testimony from people who were present in that school. So what we want

21 to know is how you perceived these problems. If you can answer the

22 question, answer it. If you can't, just say so, and we'll move on to

23 another question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to remind you, Mr.

25 President, that there was a conflict because people weren't free to move

Page 11255












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 11256

1 around. There were various incidents. People were killed. I said that

2 I was imprisoned, that half of the command was imprisoned. We didn't

3 take any measures in relation to these incidents because we did not want

4 an armed conflict to break out because we had an enemy who was too strong

5 on one side, on Vlasic, on Mount Vlasic, and we had a conflict with the

6 Croats, with the HVO. And it wasn't to our advantage. We were

7 endangered. Our lives were at risk. I wouldn't want to answer your

8 question by saying I don't know.

9 But I have also said that before the 8th of June, the HVO

10 attacked the village of Ricice and expelled the population from that

11 village. And then the village of Velika Bukovica was attacked, and 87

12 civilians were taken from that village to Busovaca. In the course of the

13 fighting and over a two-day period, seven members of our brigade were

14 killed. These people were taken away, and we waited to see what would

15 happen to these people. And I have mentioned two reasons for which the

16 people were kept in the school: first of all, we wanted to exchange them

17 for people taken away by HVO members; and the second reason was we wanted

18 to ensure that they were secure.

19 Believe me, if we had said they could go home, they would have

20 refused to go home for security reasons.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 Please continue.

23 MR. NEUNER: Officially, my time would have been expired now, but

24 since the last 10 minutes or so, 15 minutes maybe, I couldn't ask any

25 question myself --

Page 11257

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How much more time do you need?

2 MR. NEUNER: I would need 15 minutes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well naturally, we'll give just

4 as much time to Defence counsel. Please proceed.


6 Q. I have, after this last conversation, just one question left to

7 this topic. Mr. Jusic, are you aware that there is an article in the

8 Third Geneva Convention, Article 17, which provides - I will read it to

9 you in the French language, and it will be translated.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

11 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Mr.

12 President, Article 17 of the Third Geneva Convention is applied to an

13 international armed conflict. And that is not part of this case.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you're well aware that

15 there is a dispute as to the nature of the armed conflict. In your

16 submissions, you mentioned an armed conflict. The Defence would like to

17 know whether the Prosecution is claiming that there was the existence of

18 an international armed conflict or an internal armed conflict. Given

19 that Article 17 of the Third Convention relates to international armed

20 conflicts, the Defence claims that this represents a problem.

21 Before you address this issue, you should first ask the witness

22 whether he is aware of the Geneva Conventions and develop the subject on

23 that basis. Try to rephrase the question without addressing the issue of

24 the international or internal nature of the conflict. You can deal with

25 legal issues since we have a lawyer as a witness. So you could approach

Page 11258

1 the question from a legal point of view.

2 Please go ahead. Go on.


4 Q. Sir, I will very soon move on to another topic. Just, are you

5 aware of the existence of the Geneva Conventions?

6 A. Yes. As a lawyer, I couldn't say that I'm not aware of the

7 Geneva Conventions. I told you that I studied international law, and I

8 passed the exam and obtained my degree. So I'm aware of these

9 conventions. I knew there was an international court. I knew there was

10 an international court in The Hague. I was aware of all of these things.

11 Q. And the Third Geneva Convention, do you know what the topic of

12 the Third Geneva Convention is?

13 A. I don't know. I didn't need to study that for my exams. What I

14 studied 25 or 30 years ago, well, as far as I can remember, I studied

15 what I needed to perform my duties.

16 MR. NEUNER: I move on.

17 Q. When you were questioning people, were you questioning alone, or

18 you had some colleagues with you?

19 A. I was alone with them. The person who would bring them to the

20 office would stand outside the door. When I finished with one person,

21 that person would leave, another person would be brought in. That's how

22 we worked.

23 Q. Can you first tell me, were there other people doing the

24 interrogations, or were you the only person doing the interrogations?

25 A. Perhaps before I arrived, someone else interrogated them. But I

Page 11259

1 don't know. While I was there, while I interrogated the people there, my

2 superior said that two young men had arrived from Zenica, either from the

3 corps -- perhaps they were from the corps. And he said that they would

4 take statements from some individuals. I was told to allow them to do

5 so, and I allowed them to take statements. They were there for a day or

6 two, no longer. They took statements from some individuals and then

7 left, after which I continued to do my work.

8 Q. So you were present when these two persons from Zenica were

9 asking questions, or you were outside the room?

10 A. I could have been there with them, but I could also have left.

11 So I listened to them questioning a few individuals, but I would also

12 leave the premises. I wasn't present at all times during their

13 interrogations.

14 Q. And were these people from the military police in Zenica?

15 A. They didn't introduce themselves to me. But my superior told me

16 this is what they were going to do, and if he told me that I should allow

17 them to do this without checking their identity, et cetera, well,

18 naturally this is something that I accepted.

19 Q. Who was your superior who told you to permit these two military

20 police officers to ask questions? What's the name?

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this question is

22 entirely inappropriate. The witness said that he didn't know who they

23 were, and he said that he thought that they came from Zenica. My learned

24 colleague said, Who was the superior who allowed those two military

25 police officers to interrogate individuals? So this question is entirely

Page 11260

1 inappropriate.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Now that I look at the

3 transcript, it seems that there were two persons who arrived there. So

4 you should proceed as follows -- well, in fact, I'll ask the witness the

5 question. Otherwise we'll waste a lot of time.

6 You said at a given point in time - we don't know when - two

7 persons arrived from Zenica. Were these two individuals men or women?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two young men, as I said.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So these men, were

10 they wearing civilian clothes or were they in military uniform?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in uniform, in military

12 uniforms.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they were wearing military

14 uniforms. Did they have insignia or badges of any kind? Which unit did

15 they belong to?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They probably had insignia of some

17 kind, but I can't remember what sort of insignia they had on them.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So were these

19 members of the HVO? Were these men members of the HVO? I can see that

20 you are smiling. So they could only be members of the BH Army.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, they couldn't have

22 been HVO members. But as I have already said, perhaps the Chamber didn't

23 understand me, I said they were from Zenica. I said they were from the

24 3rd Corps. And I said that someone from Zenica sent them to us, a

25 superior from Zenica sent them to us. That's what I said. Because I

Page 11261

1 doubt that my superior would have allowed just anyone to go there.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But the 3rd Corps

3 had up to 32.000 troops. That's what we have been told. As this corps

4 was divided into various sorts of units, did these men belong to one of

5 the units, the 7th Brigade, the 312th, the 306th Brigade, et cetera, et

6 cetera? Or were these men men who only reported to the main staff of

7 the -- to the headquarters of the 3rd Corps? Which unit did they belong

8 to?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I didn't say the

10 3rd Corps had 32.000 members, because I don't know how many members the

11 3rd Corps had. I said that two young men arrived. My superior told me

12 that they would be taking statements from some of the individuals who

13 were present in the school. I was told to allow them to do so.

14 As to whether they were from the 3rd Corps command or from the

15 3rd Corps military police battalion or from the KP Dom or from the

16 supreme command, I really don't know. I assume they had some sort of

17 insignia, but I can't remember the insignia that they had on them. And

18 believe me, I cannot really say which unit they belonged to.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you can't tell

20 us which unit they belonged to. On the basis of the questions that they

21 put, since you were present there, were -- would you say that these men

22 were lawyers, judges, prosecutors, plumbers, drivers? Who were they?

23 What would you say on the basis of the questions you heard them put?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, I didn't know what

25 they were by profession, nor do I know that now. But I assume that they

Page 11262

1 had been sent there by our superiors. I was present when they

2 interrogated these men. I wanted to see whether they were better at it.

3 I wanted to see whether I could learn something from them. I was present

4 on a couple of occasions, and I saw that they were no better at

5 interrogating these people than I was. And as to what their profession

6 was, I don't know.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you're telling

8 us that you were present to see whether they were better prepared to

9 interrogate these people than you were, and you decided they weren't.

10 But if you are an excellent interrogator, perhaps they are interrogated,

11 too [as interpreted].

12 But let's proceed.


14 Q. On page 48, line 18, you mentioned these two persons were from

15 the corps. You were referring to the 3rd Corps, I assume.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness said

17 he came from superior command. I don't know whether it was the

18 3rd Corps, the battalion, the supreme command. This was in response to

19 your question. Why is the Prosecution asking the witness the same

20 question since this question has been answered by the witness on two

21 occasions already?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, he said that they came

23 from the 3rd Corps, but he doesn't know from which unit. So please move

24 on, otherwise we'll end up wasting more time.


Page 11263

1 Q. You testified earlier that there were many neighbours of you in

2 the school. So you knew some of them. Were you aware that there was

3 also a survivor of the Maline-Bikose incident in your school?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm surprised to see that

6 you are addressing this matter since it's not something that has been

7 discussed yet. It's not something that has been raised by the Defence

8 either. Why are you trying to ask the witness this question?

9 Yes, Defence counsel.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness has

11 answered my learned colleague's question a number of times. He said that

12 he found out about the events in Bikose only a little later. So how

13 could he know whether anyone had survived that event if he wasn't

14 familiar with the event at all? So the questions being put to this

15 witness now are now inappropriate. They are being put to him to make the

16 witness say something he never wanted to say.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness initially said that

18 in Miletici and Maline -- as far as Miletici and Maline are concerned, he

19 knew nothing when he was performing his duties. It was only one month

20 later that he obtained certain information. And now you are asking

21 him -- you are saying that there was a survivor from Maline, and you can

22 see why there is a problem. I'll try to deal with this contradiction.

23 Among the civilians accommodated in the Mehurici school, among

24 those you saw, were there any who spoke about events that they had

25 personally experienced? Did you hear anything about such events? As far

Page 11264

1 as you know, among the people who were there, did anyone tell you about

2 an event of any significance? Can you remember any such cases? Or were

3 you under the impression that these were good citizens who hadn't

4 experienced anything in particular apart from the fact that they were

5 being kept in the school for the purpose of their own safety? What can

6 you say about that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, I've already said

8 none of the people who were there from whom I took statements told me

9 anything. I only knew what I've already testified about. And I only

10 learned about these events later on.


12 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Zeljko Puselja?

13 A. Yes. I know Zeljko Puselja. We lived in the same neighbourhood.

14 He is a good guy. I knew him very well, I can say.

15 Q. Did you see Mr. Zeljko Puselja in the Mehurici school in June

16 1993?

17 A. Yes, I saw him in the school. He was there. I know that his arm

18 was bandaged. He had been given first aid, apparently. I don't know who

19 from. I took a statement from him as well.

20 Q. Were you the only person who took a statement of Zeljko Puselja

21 or were there others in the room when you were doing it, or taking a

22 statement afterwards from him?

23 A. I can't remember that. I don't know whether I was with them when

24 Zeljko was being interviewed or not. I really can't remember.

25 Q. Do you know the date when you interviewed him approximately?

Page 11265

1 Directly after you were arriving, a few days after you were arriving?

2 A. It took a few days for me to take all the statements. And during

3 that period of time, I took a statement from him as well. I arrived in

4 Mehurici on the 8th of June. I was taking statements over a period of a

5 few days. And during that period, at some point in time, I took a

6 statement from him as well.

7 Q. In what condition was Mr. Puselja when he talked to you? You

8 mentioned already he had a bandage around his arm. But what was his

9 general condition?

10 A. At the moment when I spoke to him, his general condition was

11 good. His life was not threatened. His arm was bandaged up to his

12 elbow. But his general condition was good.

13 Q. Since he was your neighbour, you knew that -- You took a

14 statement from him. Do you recall any particulars of what he told you?

15 First of all, let me rephrase. Why did you take a statement of -- why

16 did you take a statement of him?

17 A. The principle was the same. He fell into the right age group.

18 He was somewhere between 20 and 60. And that was the main reason. There

19 was no other reason at all.

20 Q. And do you recall any particulars of what Mr. Zeljko Puselja told

21 you during the interrogations?

22 A. I don't recall any details. This was about 13 years ago. I

23 can't recall any of the details.

24 Q. So you never spoke again with him afterwards about your

25 statement, since you told me you knew him? You don't remember?

Page 11266

1 A. After that, I didn't talk to him. People are currently returning

2 to their homes. I could have bumped into him. I didn't. I would like

3 to see him. I have never heard him say anything bad about me, about the

4 way I treated him. Nobody for that matter said anything bad about me.

5 And as to your question whether I ever met him after that, no, I didn't.

6 Q. Sir, one of the witnesses who has appeared in front of this Trial

7 Chamber testified that Mr. Zeljko Puselja had a fractured arm. Did you

8 notice this at the time?

9 A. I believe that I've already answered that. At the moment when I

10 spoke to him, his arm was bandaged up to the elbow. I don't know whether

11 this was just a gauze bandage or a plaster. I don't know. In any case,

12 his arm was bandaged. It may have been fractured for all I know. I

13 can't tell you. I may have even asked him that, but I don't remember

14 whether I did or not and what his answer was.

15 Q. Do you remember the statement you took from him or -- generally,

16 the statements, where were you passing them on? You were forwarding them

17 somewhere, I assume. To your superior, or were they going to somewhere

18 else?

19 A. As far as I can remember, I personally did not forward these

20 statements, save to the person who actually ordered me to perform this

21 task.

22 Q. And you are probably not aware where this person was forwarding

23 the statement to; you just know you forwarded it to your superior who

24 gave you the task, and then you don't know where they went to.

25 A. I don't know whether they were forwarded at all. I was deployed

Page 11267

1 to a different position. I went to work there. What happened to the

2 statements, whether anybody forwarded them, used them, did anything with

3 them, I don't know.

4 Q. And the persons coming from Zenica, you also -- did they also

5 take statements with them, or you kept all the statements?

6 A. They took their papers with them. They didn't give anything to

7 me. In my view, they were my superiors, and it was my obligation to

8 allow them to do their job as they best saw fit. As they were leaving,

9 they said "We are not coming back. You just proceed and do what you're

10 doing."

11 Q. Does this imply that you could look at the content of the

12 statements they took, or since they treated you as a kind of subordinate,

13 you weren't even allowed to look into their statements?

14 A. I did not feel the need to read these statements. I was present

15 during one or two interviews just to see what they were doing and compare

16 their way of work with the way I do things. In my opinion, there was no

17 need to ask them anything or to say anything to them. They just did

18 their job, and then they left. Where they went to, I don't know.

19 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, the Prosecution has no further

20 questions.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have some 10 minutes before

22 the break.

23 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusic, tell me, please, when you were

25 interrogating the individuals who were accommodated in the buildings in

Page 11268

1 Mehurici, did you ever use force? Did you ever threaten these people?

2 A. Never. I never used force or threat. I found myself in a very

3 awkward situation to have to take statements from my former neighbours

4 with whom I had very good neighbourly relations. We used to work in the

5 same companies. In other words, I never used force. I even didn't wear

6 a military uniform to avoid any discomfort. So when I took statements, I

7 wore civilian clothes.

8 Q. Mr. Jusic, you asked these persons questions. When they answered

9 those questions, did they do it of their own free will without any

10 coercion on your part?

11 A. I appreciated the situation that these people were in. They

12 could not have felt at ease. However, my impression was, and I did my

13 best to create such an atmosphere for them to tell me freely what they

14 wanted to tell me. Some of them even told me that they were members of

15 the HVO, who their commander was. Some even said that they could go to

16 their villages and show us where the arms were, where the explosives

17 were, where the minefields were. And I've already said that in

18 cooperation with them, we did go to the villages and found those

19 explosives and arms.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit

21 P204. I don't know whether the witness still has it, or does he have to

22 be provided with it.

23 Q. You have already read this document. I would like to draw your

24 attention to the part that precedes the words "hereby order." In the

25 introduction, is it said that it was the civilians who were involved in

Page 11269

1 plunder as well as some individuals from the army? Is that what this

2 document actually states?

3 A. My opinion with regard to the facts that are mentioned in this

4 document is relative to the prevention of plunder and arson committed by

5 civilians. The document was drafted on the 18th of June which was

6 immediately after the combat operations. I am not even sure that the

7 combat operations were finished at the time. In any case, the front line

8 was still open. And at that moment the brigade had two front lines, one

9 of them on Mount Vlasic and the other one facing the HVO. It took a huge

10 number of people to man those two lines. In the light of the fact that

11 during the combat operations, some people got killed, a lot got wounded.

12 Q. Thank you very much. I believe that you have answered my

13 question.

14 My learned friend drew your attention to the date when this

15 document was drafted, which is the 18th of June. And as far as I

16 remember, you replied that measures were taken even before that.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown a

18 series of documents, DH161/9, DH161/10, DH161/11, DH161/12, DH161/13,

19 DH161/16, and DH162/2. Since I have these documents with me, I can

20 assist the usher and ask to present these documents to the witness.

21 MR. NEUNER: Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.

23 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution objects because this issue of

24 measures has been raised by the Defence in her examination-in-chief

25 already. And I didn't elaborate on a new topic. So there was already a

Page 11270

1 chance given for the Defence to elaborate on this topic.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Any re-examination and the

3 right to reply to such question has to do with the answers provided to

4 the question put on cross-examination. Now you are introducing new

5 documents. Why? Can you please explain to us what their contents are.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Document P204 was

7 not used on cross-examination. It was the document that was shown to the

8 witness by the Prosecution. As for the new series of documents, this

9 arises from the Prosecutor's question relative to the date, the 18th of

10 June 1993. He asked, Why didn't the army take any measures prior to this

11 in order to prevent these incidents? I would like to show the witness

12 all these documents and put just one question to him after that.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution has put such a

14 question to the witness. I remember that well. And the document in

15 question was drafted on the 18th of June. And the question was how come

16 that no prior measures were taken? And the witness responded there were

17 other measures. Is that what you wanted to confirm with the witness? In

18 that case, you can show the documents to the witness.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Jusic, can you please look at all of these documents and tell

21 me what the dates on these documents are.

22 A. The 9th of June 1993, 10th of June 1993 --

23 Q. Just a moment, please. The first document is 9th of June 1993.

24 Who was it addressed to?

25 A. It was addressed to the units and staffs of the 3rd Corps. I

Page 11271

1 believe that this K stands for the 3rd Corps.

2 Q. To the units and the staffs of the 3rd Corps.

3 A. Yes, to all of them.

4 Q. Can you please tell me, the introductory part of this document,

5 what does it convey?

6 A. In order to prevent inappropriate behaviour of the members of the

7 BH Army in the sense of combat activities against the HVO and to preserve

8 the moral character of the BiH Army fighter, I hereby warrant --

9 Q. So this is the document dated the 9th of June. Can you please

10 look at the second document. What's the date?

11 A. 10 June 1993.

12 Q. Who was this addressed to? Who was this document addressed to?

13 A. To all subordinate units, and it was sent by the command of the

14 3rd Corps.

15 Q. What is the subject of this order? What does it refer to?

16 A. The subject of this order are measures in place against plunder

17 and destruction of property.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the transcript, the

19 first document was DH161/9, and the second one is 161/10.

20 Q. Can you please look at the following document. What is the date

21 on it?

22 A. It is the 16th of June 1993, to the commands of all units, to the

23 assistant commanders for security. And the subject is exchange of

24 prisoners of war between the BiH Army and the HVO.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, this is

Page 11272

1 DH161/11.

2 Q. Can you please look at the following document.

3 A. The following document bears the date 16 June 1993. It is a

4 document marked urgent, and it -- it's regarding the delivery of order.

5 Q. Who is it addressed to?

6 A. To the command of the operations group, to the commands of

7 independent brigades, to all of them; to the commands of independent

8 battalions, all of them; and to the municipal defence staff command.

9 Actually, I don't understand the abbreviation. I believe it's the

10 municipal staffs, to all of them.

11 Q. Looking at the preamble of this order, can you tell us what does

12 this order refer to? Can you please read this.

13 A. On the basis of information received from the corps command and

14 unverified details in connection with pillage and torching of citizens'

15 property in the wake of combat operations, in order to establish the

16 whole truth and in this connection to establish the whole truth -- this

17 must be a printing error - I issue the following order.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the transcript, this is

19 the document 162/12.

20 Q. Can you please look at the following document.

21 A. The following document bears the date 16 June 1993. It was sent

22 to the 306th Mountain Brigade, personally to the commander. And the

23 subject is securing Guca Gora region.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, this is

25 DH161/13.

Page 11273

1 Q. Can you please look at the following document.

2 A. The following document bears the date 19 June 1993, and it is

3 addressed to all the subordinate units. It was sent by the command of

4 the 3rd Corps. And the subject is prevention of arrest of civilians,

5 pillage, and destruction of property.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is DH161/16.

7 Q. And finally, can you look at the last document.

8 A. The date is 9th June 1993. It was sent to the Lasva Operations

9 Group. And it regards your enactment and orders being issued following

10 an enactment.

11 Q. And it refers to the protection of civilians and their property?

12 A. I haven't read it.

13 Q. Go ahead, read it.

14 A. As far as I can see, assistance was requested in order to protect

15 the property of civilians, and the corps was requested to provide

16 assistance. And here, the corps command orders property to be protected.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, this is

18 162/2.

19 Q. Having inspected these documents, having perused the contents

20 thereof, Mr. Jusic, do these documents show you -- does it arise from

21 these documents that the intention of the 3rd Corps was to prevent

22 crimes, to carry out investigations, to punish the perpetrators thereof,

23 and that these measures are being repeated in order for them to be

24 accepted by the subordinate units?

25 A. From these documents and from the facts that I am aware of, the

Page 11274

1 3rd Corps command invested a maximum effort, and they did as much as they

2 could, like it says in one of the documents, in order to preserve the

3 moral character of the BiH Army and its fighters.

4 Q. And my last question with this regard, Mr. Jusic, you have

5 responded a number of questions and it was your intention to describe to

6 us the very difficult situation in which the BiH Army units performed

7 their task. The documents that I have just shown to you, do they show

8 that in spite of these difficult conditions, measures were taken and BiH

9 Army members were punished for every crime that they might have

10 committed?

11 A. According to what I know, in my brigade and in the corps,

12 everything was done to prevent conflict. Once the conflict did happen,

13 then everything was done that -- to make sure that international

14 standards were respected and that people who were detained and people who

15 were arrested would be protected, as well as their property that had

16 remained abandoned.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Jusic.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's time for the break now.

19 We'll resume at about 1.00, and we'll have 45 minutes left.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.41 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have 45 minutes left for

23 additional questions and the Judges' questions. You may proceed.

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

25 only have a number of questions that concern the document shown by the

Page 11275

1 Prosecution to the witness. Document P661 is the one concerned. I think

2 the witness has it to his right.

3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusic, you've already had the opportunity

5 reading this document, and you have answered questions about it when

6 these questions were put to you by the Prosecution. Kljaci is mentioned

7 in the document, the village of Kljaci. I have a map here. But since

8 you're from the area, could you just tell me what the distance between

9 the village of Kljaci to the village of Mehurici is about 10 kilometres.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. My first question is as follows: This document has already been

12 shown to a witness from the 306th Brigade. He testified on the 26th of

13 October. It was shown by Ms. Benjamin. And if I told you that after an

14 exchange of letters between the 307th [as interpreted] and the 3rd Corps,

15 it was established that this information wasn't correct, that members of

16 the 7th Brigade weren't in the village of Kljaci, you would agree with

17 me, wouldn't you?

18 A. It would be most correct to say that I wasn't familiar with this.

19 And a minute ago, when answering questions about this document, I said

20 that the 7th Brigade wasn't in that area, but that perhaps there were

21 members of the 7th who lived in that area, who had homes in that area.

22 So it would be best and most appropriate for me to say that I'm not

23 familiar with this.

24 Q. Thank you. But there's a mistake on page 65, line 4. It says

25 the 307th Brigade, and it should say the 306th Brigade.

Page 11276

1 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no other questions.

2 Thank you, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I have some questions I

4 would like to put to you that are directly related to what you told both

5 parties a while ago.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You provided two main reasons

8 for the presence of people in the Mehurici school. You said that on one

9 hand, it was because there were Muslims in a certain area who had been

10 taken by the HVO, and you said that you wanted to have an exchange. The

11 second reason was that these people were provided with accommodation by

12 the military authorities.

13 As far as the first reason is concerned, if I have understood

14 what you have said correctly, and this is why I'm asking you to clarify

15 your answer, in your mind, there were civilians who were "detained" by

16 the military authorities, and these Croatian civilians who were detained

17 were going to be exchanged for Muslim civilians detained by the HVO.

18 Have I understood the first reason correctly?

19 A. Yes, that's quite right. As I said, the first reason was that

20 HVO units had initiated an armed conflict. They carried out an attack on

21 Velika Bukovica and when they did so, they took away 87 civilians. And

22 these people were needed for an exchange. I wouldn't agree that the

23 military authorities were involved in this and that they took care of

24 these civilians in the course of the conflict. They were taken to the

25 Mehurici school, but in my opinion, the civilian authorities took care of

Page 11277

1 them.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you are telling

3 us that the civilian authorities were in charge of them, but you said

4 that the military authorities were also present because you personally

5 conducted interrogations of these people.

6 A. Well, in a certain sense, yes, but I think I have already

7 explained this. The military authorities were only responsible for those

8 who were assumed to be fit for military action.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, the people

10 in the Mehurici school were exchanged.

11 A. Yes. I wasn't there. I had already left, assumed other duties.

12 After I had left, perhaps 10 days later or perhaps a little more, we

13 assumed that the exchange would take place quite rapidly. But I think

14 that that they stayed on for unknown reasons, perhaps for ten days or

15 more. I couldn't be precise.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, was there a

17 bipartite organisation, an ABiH/HVO organisation that proceeded to carry

18 out the exchange? Who was the superior authority that decided to

19 exchange the inhabitants of one village for the inhabitants of another

20 village? Do you have any information about this?

21 A. As far as I know, there was such a body involved in the exchange.

22 As far as the BH Army's concerned, I know this for sure, and I assume

23 there was such an organ on the HVO side as well. And I think that the

24 people who were responsible for this actually carried the task out.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I'm following you, the

Page 11278

1 army was responsible for exchanging these civilians through the

2 intermediary of this body.

3 A. Yes, as far as I know, civilians were exchanged. I think it was

4 in the place called Dolac near Travnik. And as for those who were

5 believed to be able-bodied men, they were taken to Zenica, and I don't

6 know what subsequently happened to them.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And another

8 question concerning another subject: You said that as a member of the

9 3rd Corps of the 306th Brigade security organ, you forwarded reports to

10 the military prosecutor who was in Travnik when there were incidents

11 reported by the military police. And with regard to this subject, with

12 regard to this matter, the Prosecution showed you a document, Document

13 Number 2, and I would like you to be shown this document. This document

14 is number 1448. It's a Defence document. It's a report to the Travnik

15 military prosecutor, a criminal report.

16 As far as I can see -- well, can you recognise this document?

17 Would you say that it is a report from the 306th Brigade.

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This report refers to a

20 violation committed by a number of members of the 325th Mountain Brigade.

21 Their names are on page 1. Is that correct? Could you have a look at

22 the last sentence in the report. You said that all information provided

23 to the prosecution on these suspects, you said that -- you suggested that

24 the prosecution should bring an indictment against them. Can you see the

25 sentence? That's the conclusion of the report. It says that the

Page 11279

1 prosecutor is requested to bring an indictment against them.

2 A. Yes, I've found that sentence.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. When there were

4 such situations, each time the military authority represented by the

5 security organ suggested that the Prosecutor bring an indictment when a

6 crime was committed or when an offence was committed. Is that how

7 matters proceeded?

8 A. When we found out that army members, because we were above all a

9 body that was responsible for our own members. But in this case, members

10 of another brigade are concerned. They had traversed a lengthy route.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Since you are a lawyer,

12 and you can answer some questions put to you by the Judges. The

13 perpetrator or the perpetrators weren't members of your brigade, they

14 were members of the 325th Brigade. Did you have the competence to deal

15 with it since the crimes had been committed in your area of

16 responsibility? Is that why you referred the case to the Travnik

17 prosecutor? Was it because the crimes had been committed in an area

18 under your jurisdiction? Is this why you wanted them to be prosecuted?

19 Because they weren't members of the 306th Brigade. Why not ask the

20 commander of the 325th Brigade to do his work? Why were you involved in

21 this?

22 A. Why were we responsible to file criminal reports against members

23 of other brigades? Now, I think that is the question you were asking me.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Exactly.

25 A. We acted in this manner because these men were army members who

Page 11280

1 were present in our area. They had been arrested at the site where they

2 were attempting to commit a crime. We handed them over to the military

3 prosecutor's office. And after having handed them over to the competent

4 body, we had done our bit. If they thought there was good reason to

5 proceed and to prosecute them, they would do so. They would act in

6 accordance with the law. They would take the necessary measures. So

7 this was an exception. We were responsible for our own members.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you say that

9 that was an exceptional circumstance. Why?

10 A. Well, because the 325th -- well, believe me, I don't know where

11 its command was located. We weren't in contact. We weren't able to take

12 them to their command. The roads were not practicable. We didn't have a

13 car. We didn't have fuel. We had absolutely nothing. The simplest

14 thing to do was to file a criminal report, to take them to the Travnik

15 prosecutor's office, and then make sure that they took further action in

16 Travnik.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And my last question, we'll go

18 back to the Document P204 that we know well. Could you please show the

19 witness the Document P204 which has been shown at least ten times now.

20 In B/C/S.

21 Could you please read out aloud paragraph 7.

22 A. "Individual movement by armed persons must be stopped, and these

23 persons must be disarmed and registered."

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is the order

25 issued to you. When someone was moving around and carrying weapons, it

Page 11281

1 was necessary to stop such a person. Was this order valid for all army

2 members?

3 A. I can't say for sure, but in my opinion, yes.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have been told on a number

5 of occasions - and in a certain sense you have confirmed this, too - we

6 have been told that in Mehurici or nearby there were individuals called

7 mujahedin who moved around and carried arms. On the basis of item 7,

8 shouldn't these individuals have been arrested, disarmed, and shouldn't

9 disciplinary measures have been taken against them in accordance with

10 this order? Why was this never done? Could you explain this.

11 A. Mr. President, it's very difficult to answer this question given

12 the situation in the field. On the one hand, as I said, we had one

13 defence line which was dozens of kilometres long. And we had another

14 line facing the HVO of a similar length. We were facing two enemies and

15 there was combat at the lines quite frequently. And if we had acted in

16 accordance with item 7, this would have involved opening up a third line

17 in the middle. We would have had two lines each side and a line in the

18 middle. At the time, I think it would have been impossible to act in

19 this manner.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have answered

21 my question perfectly. I have one more question, since I see we have not

22 much time left. This is the question I've wanted to ask for a long time.

23 You have described, as well as other witnesses, something about

24 HVO checkpoints. A number of witnesses said there were HVO checkpoints.

25 You yourself said that there were three checkpoints: Ovnak, Zabilje, and

Page 11282

1 Guca Gora.

2 A. Zabilje.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Zabilje. Three checkpoints.

4 And you spontaneously mentioned an unfortunate incident. You said that

5 you yourself and comrades of yours were stripped by HVO members in

6 conditions that you described as shameful, and this took place at a

7 checkpoint. My question is as follows: Given that there were

8 checkpoints in this area, the mujahedin who circulated in various

9 vehicles - in a Toyota as you said, but we don't want to advertise such

10 vehicles - you said they were circulated in a white vehicle. There were

11 about ten of them. They were armed. So given that there were

12 checkpoints there, how could they pass through the HVO checkpoints?

13 Could you explain why you - and you, too, were armed and controlled by

14 the HVO - why were you controlled by the HVO but the others, the

15 mujahedin, weren't, since they were circulating in the same area that you

16 were circulating in? Could you clarify this for us, since this is an

17 issue that has not been raised yet and it hasn't been clarified either.

18 We have seen a map that a witness referred to, and it appears there were

19 checkpoints almost everywhere. And if there were checkpoints, anyone

20 passing through would be checked. As far as the mujahedin are concerned,

21 the mujahedin who circulated in that area, are you aware of them being

22 checked, too?

23 A. Mr. President, you haven't understood me correctly. I said that

24 there were three checkpoints in the Bila region. Ovnak, Zabilje, and

25 Guca Gora. Initially, it was not possible for the buses to pass through;

Page 11283

1 then those who were a little braver would pass through in cars, and then

2 finally no one would pass through. So no members of the BH Army could

3 pass through those checkpoints, nor could civilians pass through them.

4 And as for the checkpoint at which we were humiliated and

5 disarmed and maltreated as you said, that wasn't a checkpoint. That was

6 an ad hoc incident because there were Croats in that area, and HVO troops

7 lived in our area. So it's not as if we were just present in an area

8 where there were no Croats. They, in fact, laid an ambush. They did

9 what they did, and they then left.

10 There were mujahedin who moved around that area, too, but they

11 selected us. They could have chosen to do the same to them. I have my

12 own opinion as to why they chose us and not them. But as that's not what

13 you're asking me about, I won't address the issue.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have almost answered my

15 question. I see at line 73 you say that mujahedin circulated in the

16 area. They could have been controlled just as you were. Should I draw

17 the conclusion that they were not, in fact, controlled?

18 A. Not in the way we were. But they could have been. The same

19 principle could have been applied. They could have been stopped and

20 humiliated just as we were. I have my opinion about that, but I'd rather

21 not share it at this point.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. You're saying

23 that you don't want to share this opinion, and I'm not going to put you

24 in any awkward situation. Now, if I understood you well, there was a

25 checkpoint, and there were HVO soldiers in uniform. You were passing in

Page 11284

1 a uniform -- in a vehicle. The mujahedin also passed in a vehicle, but

2 their vehicle was able to go through. Is that what happened?

3 A. When I was talking about this incident, I said that there was a

4 car in front of us with four fighters armed to the tooth. But there must

5 have been more than 50 around the vehicle. It was an ambush, a planned

6 ambush. And we were only lucky not to have put up resistance. Had we

7 have put up resistance, then I would probably not be here today because

8 the ambush was really well prepared. This was not a checkpoint. It was

9 an ambush, an ambush that served that moment. And they could have put up

10 that ambush for the mujahedin, but they didn't. They didn't.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then.

12 A. I'll tell you. I'll share my opinion with you. Because it would

13 have ended differently. It would not have ended the way it did with us.

14 That's my opinion. The outcome would have been different if they had

15 stopped the mujahedin.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then. As far as the

17 7th Brigade is concerned, you said that the 7th Brigade was not in

18 Mehurici, as far as you know, and no military unit was present there.

19 But you've also told us that there could have been some soldiers, members

20 of the 7th Brigade, who were residents of Mehurici or the general area

21 thereof, and that they could have been there at the time. You yourself

22 were very familiar with the region. Did you know any of the soldiers of

23 the 7th Brigade who were residents of the region? Did you personally

24 know any of them?

25 A. Mr. President, let me correct you ever so slightly. I didn't say

Page 11285

1 that there were no other military units in the area. In the area, there

2 was a brigade of the BH Army, the 314th Brigade. And as for the rest of

3 your question, whether I know any of the members of the 7th Muslim

4 Brigade, believe me, I don't know anybody, and I adhere to my words when

5 I said that some of them resided in the area, some of their families

6 resided in the area. They were members of the 7th Muslim Brigade. And I

7 would like to repeat: As far as I know, the 7th Muslim Brigade was not

8 there as a unit.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then.

10 Any re-examination arising from the questions that I've put to

11 the witness? I'll give the floor to both parties.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, maybe you would

13 like to give the floor to the Prosecution. We would like to be the last,

14 because this is our witness.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The Prosecution, you have

16 the floor.

17 MR. NEUNER: Since Your Honour Judge Antonetti have mentioned a

18 march starting at the Mehurici school, the Prosecution has a document in

19 its possession which also has been disclosed to the Defence. And we

20 would be prepared to show this, if Your Honours grant us leave to do so.

21 This document could shed light on the incident.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the English transcript, I

23 see you said that I've mentioned a march? I have not mentioned a march.

24 What did I mention? Can you be more precise? Can you clarify?

25 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, the Prosecution understood that you

Page 11286

1 were asking whether civilians were taken out of the school or being

2 exchanged, so basically that at some point in time detainees in the

3 school have been marched somewhere. And you asked also for a village to

4 which the -- the witness mentioned a village to which members or

5 detainees had been taken to. And we would have a document which can shed

6 some light on this. Would you allow the Prosecution to show this? May I

7 ask the Usher.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence. The witness did say

9 that the detainees were exchanged. If they were exchanged, they had to

10 leave the school, and the Prosecution now says that there is a document

11 that they would like to show the witness a document regarding the

12 exchange.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, Your Honour, in the

14 description provided to us by my learned friend, I didn't recognise

15 anything that you have referred to. Secondly, the witness has already

16 said several times that he left the area after a certain period of time,

17 and that it was only later on that he learned about the exchange which

18 had taken place. And when the documents were shown to him bearing the

19 23rd of June or some other date, he said that he abandoned the area some

20 seven days later and he only heard about the events that took place later

21 on. So no such document can be shown to the witness.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the witness did tell us

23 that the exchange took place when he was no longer there. So any

24 document that would follow his departure, you cannot show it to the

25 witness because he was not there. In line with the objection put forth

Page 11287

1 by the Defence, I cannot authorise you to put that question to the

2 witness.

3 MR. NEUNER: I can just put some additional information to Your

4 Honours. Certainly from the Defence objection, I understand that the

5 Defence has carefully studied the document. I just would like to inform

6 you that Asim Delalic, the assistant commander for security of the 306th

7 Brigade is specifically mentioned in this document, and the Prosecution

8 believes that Mr. Asim Delalic, as an assistant commander of security of

9 the 306th Brigade, was certainly one of the superiors of this witness.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to give the floor to

11 the Defence. But it has already been indicated that his superior at that

12 time was this person.

13 The Defence, you have the floor.

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. This witness will arrive,

20 so you will have the opportunity to show him the documents.

21 Any more questions on the part of the Prosecution?

22 MR. NEUNER: Then we would have no questions, Your Honour. We

23 will show the document -- we intend to show the document at a later point

24 in time. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Defence,

Page 11288

1 please. Just a few minutes that we still have.

2 Further examination by Ms. Residovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusic, the Judge has asked you about the

4 reasons why the people were brought there, and you repeated in your view

5 one of the reasons was the future exchange. Where were you on the 8th of

6 June?

7 A. On the 8th of June as I already said, I was in my village, in my

8 own village. So on the day when the large-scale conflict was taking

9 part.

10 Q. Thank you very much. The persons that you interrogated, on the

11 8th of June when you were in your village, were they taken to the school

12 on that day?

13 A. I can't be sure of that. But I assume that they were taken there

14 on the first day.

15 Q. You were not in Maline on that day, and you don't know. Did

16 anybody tell you what the reason was for these people being brought to

17 the school?

18 A. Yeah, I was in my village. And people were brought there before

19 my arrival. When I turned up in the school in Mehurici, they were

20 already there. I found them there.

21 Q. In light of the fact that you've given us two reasons, are these

22 the reasons that you are aware of as facts, or are these your

23 conclusions?

24 A. I said in my opinion.

25 Q. Thank you very much. My next question arises from the question

Page 11289

1 that the Judge put to you with regard to our document number 2. This is

2 the criminal report that you filed with the district military prosecutor

3 in Travnik. Earlier on, you said that the last time you met with the

4 Geneva Conventions was some 30 years ago when you were a law student.

5 Please tell me, were you engaged in criminal law at any point in time?

6 A. No, I was never engaged in criminal law. During the war, I was

7 forced to do this because it was charged with that. I ended up doing

8 that.

9 Q. The Honourable Judge read out to you the last sentence in which

10 you suggest that the prosecutor did something. The person who filed a

11 criminal report in your experience, or lack of experience, rather, did it

12 have an influence on the way you drafted such an enactment, a legal

13 enactment?

14 A. I worked to the best of my abilities. Whether I made errors and

15 mistakes, I don't know if I made a mistake in this particular case.

16 There was another body which was more professional, more skilful than me,

17 and they could put it right.

18 Q. You were also talking about the fact that in this criminal

19 report, persons against whom the report was filed are persons from the

20 306th Brigade. And you said that your authority was over your own

21 troops, but this is against the 325th Brigade. Can you please look at

22 the document and tell us whether the damage was suffered by the building

23 that was secured by your brigade, the transmission power line.

24 A. This facility is in Guca Gora. Guca Gora was inhabited by the

25 Croatian population. In Guca Gora, we tried to secure the most important

Page 11290

1 facilities. Amongst them was the church, the power transmission line.

2 There was a shoe factory as well.

3 Q. Thank you very much. In addition to the authority to prosecute

4 members of the army, primarily members of your brigade, did it also apply

5 to the facilities which enjoyed special protection by the army?

6 A. Can you please repeat the question. I didn't understand your

7 question.

8 Q. You said that these facilities were under your protection. So

9 you were responsible for them. I would like to know whether the

10 prosecution of persons who attacked facilities of the army, were they

11 also your responsibility, or were they not your responsibility? Was

12 that -- were they your responsibility?

13 A. Yes, I believe that they were our responsibility, to protect our

14 property.

15 Q. Thank you very much. With regard to the fact that you reported

16 members of a different brigade, did you inform the respective brigade if

17 that was at all possible?

18 A. I can only respond to that from the point of view of my job. I

19 was a legal officer. I was ordered to do things, and I did them

20 accordingly. My superior and his superior in turn were informed what I

21 did. Whether they informed the brigade in a question about the crime

22 committed by their members, I can't respond to that question.

23 Q. I would like to talk about your knowledge as to the fact whether

24 the mujahedin could pass the HVO points or not. Did you ever learn who

25 the mujahedin bought their arms from?

Page 11291

1 A. At that time, weapons can only be obtained on black market. As

2 far as I know, from rumours, they obtained weapons from members of the

3 HVO or from the Serbian side. They couldn't obtain it from Muslims

4 because Muslims didn't have any. And why? Why would they obtain it from

5 Muslims?

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you have the

7 floor.

8 MR. NEUNER: I'm sorry. The question Your Honours have asked was

9 relating to checkpoints, not relating to the buying of weapons by the

10 mujahedin. This is a completely new topic.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. However,

12 there's a little point here. I said they drove around in their vehicle,

13 and they were armed. Maybe that is the origin of the question. The

14 question is very indirect; however, he has answered.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll have another direct

16 question.

17 Q. Among the members of the army, were there certain rumours that it

18 was in the interests of the HVO to support the presence of the mujahedin

19 in the area?

20 A. I can just share my opinion with you.

21 Q. I just asked you whether you knew it or not. If you didn't, fair

22 enough.

23 A. I only know that -- I can only give you my opinion.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you have the

25 floor.

Page 11292

1 MR. NEUNER: Sorry for interrupting again, but Your Honours have

2 asked a question relating the passing of a checkpoint by a car with

3 mujahedin. And whether, as my learned colleague has just asked, there

4 were certain rumours within the army that it was in the interest of the

5 HVO to support the presence of mujahedin, the Prosecution cannot recall

6 that such a question has been asked by Your Honours.

7 In addition to this, my learned friend is leading her own

8 witness.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It was a leading question.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team, please.

14 We have already surpassed the time that we have.

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any questions,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to thank

18 you. For a moment, it looked as if you would have to stay the weekend.

19 However, we were able to finish your testimony. We would like to thank

20 you for answering all the questions put to you. I wish you a happy

21 journey back home and success in your career.

22 I'm going to ask the usher to accompany you out of the courtroom.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am looking at the Defence.

Page 11293

1 Unfortunately, your second witness could not have been heard today. He

2 will have to pass the weekend in The Hague. I hope the weekend will be

3 pleasant for him. And we will hear this witness on Monday at quarter

4 past 2.00.

5 At this point in time, does the Defence wish to say something?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We understand the situation. The

7 witness is here. He will stay until Monday. Since our witness that has

8 been scheduled for Monday is a doctor who is going to testify about very

9 limited circumstances, I hope that we will be able to make up for the

10 time due to the fact that we did not have a witness that we could bring

11 in on Wednesday.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You have

13 shown the witness five documents. Do you want to tender these documents

14 into evidence?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender documents

16 number 1444, 1448, 1455, and 1456, and 1266 because four of these

17 documents were drafted by the witness himself, and he was aware of the

18 document relative to the training of officers in the army units and in

19 his brigade as well.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Prosecution.

21 MR. NEUNER: We have shown the witness also a new document. And

22 the witness has read from it. It was relating his position, and we would

23 like to tender this document into evidence.

24 And in addition, we don't have any objections to the Defence

25 tendering their documents into evidence.

Page 11294

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any objections to

2 that.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can you please

4 give us five numbers for the Defence and one for the Prosecution.

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The documents will be admitted as

6 DH1444, and the English version will be DH1444/E.

7 DH1448; and the English version, 1448/E.

8 DH1455; English version, DH1455/E.

9 DH1456; the English version DH1456/E.

10 And finally, DH1266; and the English version DH1266/E.

11 As far as the Prosecution document is concerned, the Registrar

12 notes that only one part of the document has been translated into

13 English, and it is admitted as B/C/S version P935, and the partial

14 translation into English will be P935/E. Thank you very much, Mr.

15 President.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to say that during

17 the testimony of this witness, a name was mentioned. I believe that we

18 should have been in private session. Maybe the witness wants to be

19 protected. We don't know.

20 If there are no other issues to raise, I would like to adjourn,

21 and I invite all of you to come back on Monday at quarter past 2.00.

22 Thank you very much.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day of

25 November, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.