Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13286

1 Monday, 13 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.13 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case Number IT-01-47-T, The

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have the

10 appearances for the Prosecution.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

12 Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

13 Prosecution, Tecla Henry-Benjamin, Daryl Mundis; we're assisted today by

14 our intern Jaspreet Saini, and our case manager Andres Vatter.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

16 Could we have the appearances for Defence counsel.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On behalf

18 of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, counsel, and Muriel Cauvin,

19 legal assistant. Thank you.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [No Interpretation]

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber would like to

23 greet everyone present: Members of the Prosecution, Defence counsel, the

24 accused, and everyone else in the courtroom.

25 We have a new map, and the witness will certainly indicate the

Page 13287

1 positions of units when asked to do so by the Prosecution. If there are

2 no issues to be raised by either of the parties, I will now ask the usher

3 to call General Merdan into the courtroom.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, General. I would

6 first like to make sure that you are receiving interpretation of what I'm

7 saying. It seems so.

8 This is the second week of your testimony. If everything goes as

9 planned, we should conclude your testimony this week.

10 It seems that we have a problem. Can you hear me or not?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear anything.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

13 Are you receiving the interpretation now or not?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll change the headphones.

16 Can you hear now?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, as I was saying, this

19 is the last week dedicated to your testimony, as your testimony should be

20 concluded by the end of the week. We'll start with the cross-examination.

21 There was a problem as far as the maps and position of the units are

22 concerned. I think that we have changed the map. I will now give the

23 floor to Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.


Page 13288

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]

3 Q. Good afternoon, General.

4 A. Good afternoon.

5 Q. Sir, when you were here on Friday, we were discussing the

6 possibility of having you make some markings on a map, and I hope you were

7 informed by the Victims Unit that we have come up with an alternative

8 solution to that problem.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps if the usher can be of assistance, I would

10 ask, Mr. President, that the witness be permitted to approach the large

11 map that is now hanging in the courtroom. And if it's possible, I would

12 like the general just to take a look at the map and to then be in a

13 position, hopefully, to answer a few questions about the map.

14 Q. Sir, I see that you've had an opportunity to look at this map. I

15 would ask you first of all if you can recognise this map; and if so, if

16 you can tell us what this map represents.

17 A. I can't hear anything.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness isn't receiving the

19 interpretation.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you hear anything now?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do now.


23 Q. General, now that you've had a moment to look at the map, I would

24 ask you if you can recognise the map. And if you do, if you can please

25 tell us what this map represents.

Page 13289

1 A. I can see that this is the commanders' working map, dated the 13th

2 of August 1993. And it's Commander Enver Hadzihasanovic's, but I can't

3 see the signature.

4 Q. Now, sir, when you say it's a working map, can you perhaps explain

5 what a working map would be.

6 A. Well, as a rule, a working map represents the main elements of the

7 deployment of our own forces and of the enemy forces. And the purpose of

8 this map is to enable the commander to follow the situation in the field.

9 Q. Sir, if you could, if you could look towards the top of the map,

10 you'll note different shades at the very top. Would this be the type of

11 map that some kind of clear overlay would be taped onto the map so that

12 markings could be made on the map and those markings could then be changed

13 as the situation develops on the ground?

14 A. Yes, I can see that at the top there are different shades.

15 Q. Can you also, if you look closely, I believe you can actually see

16 -- this map is a photocopy of a map with an overlay on it. I believe you

17 can actually see where the cellophane tape holds the -- what would have

18 held on the original the overlay onto the actual map. Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, sir, there's -- sir, let's start, for the benefit of everyone

21 in the courtroom, if you could explain to us the various markings that you

22 see on the map. Perhaps starting with the dashed lines that appear

23 throughout the map, and also indicate to us what the different colours of

24 those lines represent.

25 A. There was an interruption in the interpretation. Could you please

Page 13290

1 repeat your question because I wasn't able to hear the entire question.

2 Q. Absolutely. There are a number of different types of markings on

3 this map. And some of those markings are actually in different colours.

4 Could you please explain to us these markings and perhaps begin by telling

5 us what the dashed lines represent and also informing us what the colours

6 of those lines represent.

7 A. I don't understand your question very well. But if I have

8 understood it correctly, I should tell you what these dashed lines and

9 what these colours, the red and blue and orange colours and the black

10 colours represent. Is that what you're asking me to say?

11 Q. Yes, sir.

12 A. The colour red should indicate the lines of deployment of the

13 aggressor in Bosnia and Herzegovina according to intelligence that was

14 obtained. As to whether this was the actual location of the lines as

15 they're depicted on the map, I can't remember. But this should be where

16 the aggressor was deployed. The colour red indicates the positions at

17 which the aggressor was deployed.

18 Blue should represent the deployment of our own forces. I don't

19 know whether this line was drawn on the same day, the line representing

20 the positions of our forces, the forces of the 3rd Corps.

21 I can see that the forces of other corps are also indicated here.

22 I can't read this very well, I can't read the names of these places very

23 well, but other corps are referred to, not just the 3rd Corps.

24 And the blue colour here within the zone of responsibility of the

25 3rd Corps, well, again, I can't see the places, the names of the places,

Page 13291












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Page 13292

1 and I couldn't say whether this is where our forces were deployed on that

2 day. But blue represents our forces, 3rd Corps forces.

3 I can also see orange or yellow, and this would be the positions

4 at which the HVO forces were deployed. I can't confirm that the HVO was

5 actually deployed at these positions on that day.

6 And then operations groups are indicated in red, operations groups

7 in zones where the relevant operations groups operated.

8 Q. Sir, there also appear to be some little markings with what appear

9 to be little flags. Can you tell us what those represent.

10 A. Yes. On the map, I can also see such symbols. They represent

11 command places, the corps command place, the command places of operations

12 groups and of brigades. I can see that there are also the command places

13 of municipal staffs here.

14 Q. Sir, if you could turn your attention very briefly to the area in

15 the middle of the map where you indicated the HVO was deployed, the

16 formation in the middle of the map, I would ask you, sir, to look at the

17 southern part of that bubble, if you will. There don't appear to be any

18 lines at the southern portion of the area where the HVO were located. Do

19 you see that on the map?

20 A. Is this the part you are referring to? Or are you referring to

21 some other location?

22 Q. Yes. No, the part, sir --

23 A. Right to the south.

24 Q. That part right there where you're pointing to now.

25 MR. MUNDIS: And perhaps if the cameras could focus on that part

Page 13293

1 of the map.

2 Q. Yes, that area right there, sir. Do you recall what kind of lines

3 or what kind of operations were going -- taking place in that area during

4 the middle of 1993?

5 A. Well, in this area, in mid-1993, there were -- there was combat,

6 but it wasn't large scale. Combat adopt the most favourable combat

7 positions. Nothing else.

8 Q. And sir, what do you mean by "most favourable combat positions"?

9 A. Well, since the ABiH was trying to avoid a conflict with the HVO,

10 the units during that period of time didn't launch any attacks. They only

11 adopted positions for defence. And in this area, there was no combat at

12 the time, no significant combat, especially not for the corps command.

13 Perhaps for the lower level of command and control, for brigade or a

14 battalion, perhaps such a combat did have significance.

15 Q. I asked that question, sir, because it -- for a layperson, the

16 fact that there are what appear to be confrontation lines, but in that one

17 area there are no such confrontation lines, might lead one to ask why.

18 And I was just wondering if you could perhaps give us any further

19 explanation with a particular focus on confrontation lines in that area.

20 A. This area is south of Busovaca. It covers the territory of

21 Busovaca Municipality. In mid-1993, in this area, we had ABiH patrols.

22 They would go from Simsir through Busovaca mountain up to Rok. We had

23 patrols here but there weren't any classical, any usual lines. There were

24 no trenches. We didn't have units that were permanently deployed there,

25 which was the case in other areas, but we did have units moving around in

Page 13294

1 this area. And there were some sabotage actions in order to take combat

2 positions. So there were operations, there were troops, but there wasn't

3 fighting as was the case in other areas.

4 I would also like to say that in mid-June, this was a difficult

5 month for the 3rd Corps, so we should be more specific with regard to the

6 time concerned because June was a crucial month for the 3rd Corps as far

7 as combat in Central Bosnia is concerned.

8 Q. Sir, to the best of your recollection, at any point in time in

9 1993 were there identifiable confrontation lines in the area we've just

10 been talking about where there appears to be a gap in the confrontation

11 lines?

12 A. I can't remember exactly. I can't remember the exact date. I

13 don't know whether it was in mid-1993. But in the wider area of the

14 Busovaca mountain, there was fighting, there was a combat operation. I

15 can't remember the exact date, but there was one combat operation. I do

16 remember that.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. That completes the questions that I'll be asking

18 you about the map. So perhaps the usher can assist returning you to the

19 witness box.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, at this point I would certainly ask

21 that this map be given a number for identification purposes. We will be

22 seeking to tender this map, but at least for now, for the record, if it

23 could be given a number marked for identification, we would appreciate it.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar -- Defence

25 counsel, any comments to make with regard to marking this map for

Page 13295

1 identification, a map that the witness has identified?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The Prosecution informed us on

3 Friday that they would be using this map as a new piece of evidence. And

4 we don't object to having it marked for identification, nor do we object

5 having this map tendered into evidence. So when the Prosecution deems

6 that it is appropriate to do this ...

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This

9 map will be marked for identification. The number will be P938/ID.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, at this point in time I would ask that

12 the witness be shown three documents. Two of them -- all three of these

13 documents were among the documents that the Defence notified us that they

14 would be using with this witness. Two of these documents, number 0502 and

15 0705, were, in fact, shown to the witness. The third document, 1005, was

16 among the binders provided by the Defence, but I do not believe that

17 document was actually shown to the witness. With your leave, we would ask

18 that all three of these documents, including the one which the Defence put

19 on their list but which they did not show the witness, be shown to the

20 witness at this time. And we do, I believe, have sufficient copies of

21 these documents.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have three documents; 502,

23 705, and 1005.


25 Q. Sir, I would ask you first to look at Document 0502.

Page 13296

1 A. I've had a look at the document.

2 Q. Sir, with respect to the third paragraph of this document, I'm

3 wondering if you can elaborate for us on the information contained in the

4 third paragraph of this document.

5 A. In the third paragraph of this document, it says that wearing

6 Croatian Army insignia by individuals is linked to accusations regarding

7 the direct involvement of HV units in the Croatian Community of Herceg

8 Bosna, which leads to accusations against the Republic of Croatia and the

9 Croatian Community of Herceg Bosna. Members of the HV are also requested

10 to wear HVO insignia while in our areas. That's what it says in paragraph

11 3 of this order.

12 Q. Sir, do you know anything about what's stated in the third

13 paragraph of this document?

14 A. I don't understand the question.

15 Q. Do you know, sir, if there were, in fact, members of the Croatian

16 Army in Central Bosnia wearing HVO insignia during 1992 or 1993?

17 A. I heard information according to which there were some Croatian

18 troops in Central Bosnia; that is to say, there were troops from the

19 Croatian Army. I don't know how many of them there were, and similarly I

20 don't know which units were engaged there. But I do know that in this

21 area there were Croatian troops that had been engaged.

22 Q. I ask you now, sir, if you could look at, please, Document 0705.

23 And I'm particularly interested in the first sentence of that document.

24 A. The first sentence in this document states the following: "The

25 situation in Gornji Vakuf is a classic example of an occupation by the HVO

Page 13297












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Page 13298

1 and the Croatian Army." That's the first sentence.

2 Q. Sir, do you have any knowledge or can you tell us what is meant by

3 "a classic example of an occupation by the HVO and the HV"?

4 A. I would say that HVO units and HV units had attacked Gornji Vakuf.

5 That would be my interpretation.

6 Q. Sir, could you now turn to Document 1005. And again, I would ask

7 you to look at the first paragraph of this document.

8 A. On the 13th of May 1993, in the afternoon, a helicopter of the

9 Croatian air force landed in the village of Stojkovici, Novi Travnik. The

10 same happened in Busovaca on the day before.

11 Q. Sir, other than the two references in this paragraph to Croatian

12 air force helicopters being in the Central Bosnia in May, 1993, were you

13 aware of other instances where the Croatian air force was active in

14 Central Bosnia during 1993?

15 A. Well, I had some information that the Croatian air force was very

16 intensely engaged in that area at the time. Helicopters dropped materiels

17 and supply to the HVO, including military assistance, mostly by night when

18 visibility was reduced, but the noise of the helicopters was clearly

19 audible and unmistakable, and you could see them dropping parcels in that

20 area. I had, indeed, information that this was done by the Croatian air

21 force using helicopters.

22 Q. General, I'd now like to turn to a different topic, and that being

23 the importance of observing international humanitarian law. Would it be

24 fair to say, sir, that from the beginning of the war in Bosnia in the

25 spring of 1992, that President Izetbegovic and the top leadership of the

Page 13299

1 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina placed a great emphasis on strict adherence

2 to the laws of armed conflict?

3 A. Yes, one could say that.

4 Q. And all subordinate units of the ABiH were required to take all

5 the necessary steps to prevent crimes from being punished by soldiers of

6 the ABiH?

7 A. Yes. The command of the 3rd Corps took a number of steps to train

8 its troops, and I have spoken about it at length. They were trained in

9 order not to break the international humanitarian law. I also mentioned

10 that the soldiers in question had no military education. They were

11 organised hastily, as best we could. And of course, the corps sometimes

12 resorted to disciplinary measures and sanctions against those who violated

13 the discipline and the international humanitarian law. Anybody who was

14 found guilty was held accountable.

15 Q. And sir, I suggest to you that there are two primary reasons why

16 the ABiH placed an importance on the law of armed conflict. The first was

17 because had the state not done so, it would have harmed the reputation of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina; and second, because the failure to take steps to

19 prevent and punish crimes can have a serious detrimental effect on morale

20 and combat readiness. Would you agree with that?

21 A. If that is the kind of information you have, I can only

22 acknowledge that you have such information. I agree with your reasoning.

23 One should bear in mind that the BH Army was the official armed force of

24 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and that it was our duty, since we

25 were defending our state, to abide by the international humanitarian law

Page 13300

1 and the laws and customs of war.

2 Q. I take it from that, sir, that the leadership of the 3rd Corps,

3 including yourself as the deputy commander and General Hadzihasanovic as

4 the corps commander, took these obligations very seriously, and that would

5 mean that any reports or any information that you obtained that indicated

6 crimes might have been committed would be taken very seriously.

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Now, sir, we'll talk perhaps tomorrow a little bit more about

9 Dusina, but I mention that at this point because you told us last Tuesday

10 that Dusina was a significant event because it was the first time you had

11 received information that an army unit of the 3rd Corps may have possibly

12 committed some kind of war crimes. Is that right?

13 A. Yes. I received that report at a meeting in Kiseljak.

14 Q. And I take it, sir, in part because this was the first time you

15 had received such a report, that you took it very seriously and wanted to

16 leave no stone unturned in terms of finding out what had happened in

17 Dusina.

18 A. In the case of Dusina, we took every step that it was our duty to

19 take. Based on reports from the competent authorities and professionals,

20 including the civilian police, we found out that this case involved the

21 wounding and killing of soldiers in combat activities. Our sources were

22 professionals who were able to evaluate whether the casualties were

23 inflicted in the course of combat activity. And it was their conclusion

24 that it was combat activity, not war crimes or any other crime.

25 Q. As I said, sir, we will return to the topic of Dusina perhaps

Page 13301

1 tomorrow morning. Let me turn to the issue of the various commission

2 meetings or meetings to discuss cease-fires, the meetings that you held

3 with your counterparts from the HVO that were attended by representatives

4 of the international community, whether the EUMM or BritBat or any other

5 international organisation. You told us that at these meetings both sides

6 would often raise complaints with the other side concerning a number of

7 different issues, but including the treatment of persons who had

8 surrendered or been captured. Is that correct?

9 A. We only exchanged information on such occasions, and that's what I

10 testified to here. All the information I received from various sources, I

11 would present to them because it was our only line of communication with

12 the HVO. Whether the Croatian Defence Council was able or willing to

13 accommodate my requests is a different issue. But I also said the HVO

14 used that opportunity to provide me with the information they had about

15 any complaints and problems they had so that we could deal with them

16 before they became aggravated and led to incidents, maybe even armed

17 conflict.

18 Q. And sir, I assume that you fulfilled your obligations in conveying

19 any such complaints that you received from the HVO to the corps commander,

20 General Hadzihasanovic. Isn't that right?

21 A. Some of these reports I would indeed share with him. Some I would

22 send down to the local level because they concerned the local level. We

23 were indeed a local commission. The first one that was set up in Busovaca

24 was called the joint committee or commission of Busovaca and it was a

25 forum for dealing with problems in Busovaca at a tactical level together.

Page 13302

1 If an incident would occur in Busovaca itself or at the nearby front line,

2 I would not pass that information up to the command level because it was

3 the tactical level, the tactical operative level. But at any rate, I did

4 not have the possibility to give every single detail of my communication

5 with the HVO to the commander.

6 Q. Sir, would it also be true that in 1993, you frequently met with

7 representatives of a variety of international organisations or concerns,

8 including BritBat, UNPROFOR, and the European Community Monitors. Would

9 that be correct?

10 A. These organisations that you enumerated, I did meet with them. I

11 don't know if you mean any others, like Doctors Without Borders, and there

12 were some other organisations represented, I don't recall all their names

13 any more. But we also met with the UNPROFOR, UNHCR, the International Red

14 Cross, and some others. Those were our frequent contacts in 1993.

15 Q. And General, if any of those agencies or organisations had passed

16 on information concerning alleged violations of the law by units of the

17 3rd Corps, would you have conveyed that information to the corps

18 commander, General Hadzihasanovic, as well?

19 A. At the meetings of the joint commission, regardless of which

20 particular joint commission it was, whenever we would receive information

21 from international organisations about an incident or a criminal offence

22 committed by a member of the BH Army, I always asked to be taken to that

23 spot, to the crime scene, to see exactly what happened. And in such cases

24 when we found that something indeed had taken place, we would always take

25 steps. If it was found that a crime had occurred, I would always inform

Page 13303












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Page 13304

1 the command of the 3rd Corps upon return from such meetings. We would

2 always go on-site, and I have already spoken about this. Whenever I was

3 informed that a crime or an offence had taken place, I would go myself to

4 that spot to see where it had happened. We could only use UNPROFOR

5 vehicles and their means of communication because there was no other way.

6 I could not call my corps command from those meetings because there was no

7 communication. I was only able to inform the commander of the key

8 problems that I heard about at these meetings only upon return.

9 Q. Now, sir, you told us last week that in order to ensure that the

10 law was complied with, the leadership of the 3rd Corps worked with the

11 prosecutors and courts. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes. The military prosecutor's office and military courts.

13 Q. Did you have, to your recollection, any involvement with the

14 civilian courts or the civilian prosecutors?

15 A. I personally had no contact with them. Whether the commander of

16 the corps had any, I don't know. When I spoke about the way I saw the

17 military police, I explained that the military police was in charge of

18 investigating infractions of discipline because it was their job. It was

19 their job to make police reports and submit them to the prosecutor's

20 office. It was not directly in my area of competence. You would have to

21 ask the military police and the security organ who was in that business

22 and whose job it was to take such measures. It was not my job.

23 Q. General, soldiers of the 3rd Corps should have been prosecuted by

24 the district or within the district military court system. Is that your

25 understanding?

Page 13305

1 A. I'm not an expert in the area, and I don't think I can give you an

2 answer to this. I don't even have enough information to give you the kind

3 of answer you want. I can't reply really. It's not my field of

4 expertise.

5 Q. That's fine, sir. If you don't know, I certainly don't want you

6 to speculate, but I have a few more questions along the same lines and if

7 you know anything about it or you can help us in any way, it would be

8 appreciated, but if you don't know, that's okay as well.

9 Let me ask you if you were aware of any instances where soldiers

10 of the 3rd Corps were tried by the civilian courts and that was later

11 found to be an error because they should have been tried within the

12 military courts.

13 A. I don't recall. In fact, I'm not aware of any such cases.

14 Q. Were you aware, sir, or did you see at any point any documents or

15 certificates sent by the 3rd Corps to the courts - the civilian courts or

16 the military courts - confirming that an individual was a member of the

17 3rd Corps or one of its subordinate units?

18 A. I don't understand this question. Could you clarify that?

19 Q. Sir, we've had testimony before this Trial Chamber that in certain

20 instances where a court was unable to determine if the perpetrator was a

21 civilian or a member of the army, that certificates from the army would be

22 a way for the court to determine if the perpetrator was a civilian or a

23 soldier. And my question is: Do you recall any certificates like that

24 being sent by the 3rd Corps to any of the courts within the 3rd Corps'

25 zone, informing the court that the person was either a soldier or not a

Page 13306

1 soldier?

2 A. I can't recall any such case. I don't know whether there were

3 any, but I can't say yes or no.

4 Q. Let me turn now, sir, to a different topic. You told us last

5 Monday that among the various groups - and this was early on, in 1992 -

6 among the various groups prior to the formation of the 3rd Corps, you told

7 us about the Patriotic League. Do you remember that?

8 A. Yes, I remember that. I said there were units who had organised

9 themselves as patriots to defend Bosnia-Herzegovina because it was the

10 beginning of the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was the month

11 of April. Even before this state of impending danger of war was

12 proclaimed by the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina in early April 1992,

13 there were clear indicators of aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina,

14 especially in the northeast. The aggressor was already carrying out

15 specific operations and crimes were being committed against the civilian

16 population. The country was preparing to defend itself, but at that point

17 we still did not have an armed force ready to repel the attack so we

18 relied on self-organised units.

19 I also mentioned another organisation, the Patriotic League. When

20 the Presidency gave the order that all the self-organised, self-initiated

21 units place themselves under the command of the armed forces, I remember

22 one of such organisations was the Patriotic League.

23 Q. And, sir, can you tell us exactly what the Patriotic League was?

24 A. The Patriotic League was an organisation that united patriots of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina in defence in case of attack by an aggressor.

Page 13307

1 Q. General, were you involved in forming a Patriotic League as early

2 as February 1992?

3 A. Yes. I did take part for the area of Zenica in February of 1992.

4 Q. And in fact, there was a meeting on the 7th and 8th of February

5 1992 in Mehurici, and the point of that meeting was to coordinate regional

6 plans for the Patriotic League and to assign tasks among the various

7 attendees. Is that right?

8 A. Yes. Those assignments concerned defence against possible

9 aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina. We had already been in possession

10 of information that the Yugoslav People's Army was arming members of the

11 Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina. We heard that a great deal of

12 weapons and military equipment had been transported into

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina from Slovenia and Croatia and that these weapons and

14 equipment were being distributed only among Serbs. And it was said at

15 that meeting that we should prepare for defence, and if it comes to the

16 worst, we should defend Bosnia and Herzegovina against the Yugoslav Army

17 that was still present in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. Sir, among the people who attended this meeting on the 7th and 8th

19 of February 1992 were the following, in addition, of course, to yourself:

20 Sefer Halilovic, Alija Izetbegovic, Vahid Karavelic, and the Mufti of

21 Travnik, Nusret Avdibegovic. Is that right?

22 A. No. That is not correct. This information you have is not

23 correct. This meeting was not attended by late Alija Izetbegovic or the

24 Travnik Mufti. I did attend, as well as General Sefer Halilovic and

25 General Vahid Karavelic, but the Mufti and Mr. Izetbegovic were not there.

Page 13308

1 Q. And sir, in fact, you were responsible for organising the

2 Patriotic League in 12 municipalities in Central Bosnia?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that some of the units that

5 eventually -- some of the units that were formed within the 3rd Corps, in

6 fact, grew out of these Patriotic League -- local Patriotic League units?

7 A. No, it would not be fair to say. The 3rd Corps grew out of

8 Territorial Defence units. Already by that time, it was already operating

9 as the Territorial Defence was able to operate. I already mentioned the

10 great problems we encountered at the time. I don't want to repeat myself.

11 But the 3rd Corps, as I said, grew out of Territorial Defence units that

12 only transformed themselves into different organisations. They received

13 additional manpower and additional newly mobilised units, starting from

14 the Patriotic League and those patriotic forces which joined at a much

15 earlier stage. That was not the factor that led to the appearance of the

16 3rd Corps.

17 Q. Perhaps I should have phrased my question in a slightly different

18 way. The units or the groups of people that were part of the Patriotic

19 League, once the Territorial Defence units were formed, did the Patriotic

20 League units simply disband? Did they, in effect -- large numbers of

21 those people joined the local Territorial Defence units? Or what happened

22 to these Patriotic League units that you set up in 12 municipalities in

23 Central Bosnia?

24 A. One couldn't say that the patriotic forces for the defence of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina were organised through the Patriotic League. There

Page 13309












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Page 13310

1 were other patriotic organisations. I've already mentioned this. There

2 were the Green Berets. As far as I know, there were some forces with the

3 MOS insignia. They had various names. I don't know all of them. But I

4 know that there was a Patriotic League organisation in 12 municipalities.

5 These weren't units. They consisted of people who had joined those units.

6 They didn't have weapons, they didn't have equipment. These were small

7 groups of people. In 12 municipalities, there were perhaps between 30 to

8 40 people in each municipality. There weren't units.

9 It's true that after the decision of the BH Presidency that all

10 patriotic forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina should be placed under the

11 Territorial Defence command, it's true that after this decision was taken,

12 the Patriotic League followed it. But they were disbanded. They weren't

13 placed under the command of the Territorial Defence, and in fact we did

14 not have units of the Patriotic League any more, we had the Territorial

15 Defence. And there were no Patriotic League units, in fact; there were

16 people who had organised themselves.

17 Q. Well, sir, you say the Patriotic League was disbanded. Did those

18 people that were in the Patriotic League then become members of the

19 Territorial Defence?

20 A. Yes. The people who wanted to be placed under the command of the

21 Territorial Defence, those who wanted to join the armed forces of Bosnia

22 and Herzegovina at the time did join the Territorial Defence. But there

23 were some people who didn't. There were some people who didn't become

24 members of the Territorial Defence. One couldn't say that they disbanded

25 because this wasn't a strict organisation with its members. So it was a

Page 13311

1 very unstable organisation. There wasn't much time to consolidate this

2 organisation. So it's very difficult to talk about these people who were

3 members of the Patriotic League in this way, as if they represented some

4 sort of organised unit.

5 Q. General, you've also mentioned several times and in two different

6 contexts the Muslim armed forces, or MOS. We have also heard the term in

7 this trial "Muslim forces" or "MS." Were these one and the same, or were

8 there two different groups, one known as M-O-S and one known as M-S?

9 A. I've already said that I had never seen a MOS unit or a Muslim

10 forces unit. I said that I had information of the existence of such

11 groups in the field. This is what they called themselves. I also said

12 that the enemy propaganda made significant contributions. Later, we

13 noticed that the HVO also had such propaganda objectives. I have

14 testified before this Tribunal that at the highest level of the HVO, it

15 was said that we were the Muslim forces, that we weren't in fact the ABiH,

16 we were in fact Muslim forces. We protested as a result, and I have also

17 mentioned Mr. Siber Stjepan, who is a Croat, as far as I know. They told

18 him quite openly that he was a commander of the Muslim forces. I

19 mentioned how Mr. Stjepan Siber reacted to this claim. I never saw a MOS

20 group or a Muslim forces group. There were various names and the

21 propaganda was of various types. These were claims that were made. But

22 there were no MOS units in the Territorial Defence or in the 3rd Corps

23 later on. And similarly, there were no Muslim forces in the Territorial

24 Defence or within the 3rd Corps.

25 Q. Let me ask you, sir, a couple of follow-on questions with respect

Page 13312

1 to what you've just told us. If I were to then therefore see a document

2 of the HVO making reference to the MOS, would that, in fact, be a

3 reference to the 3rd Corps?

4 A. I don't know what the HVO was referring to. But when such terms

5 were used, for example, that there were MOS units or Muslim forces in the

6 3rd Corps, well, I would reject the use of such terms. I knew that this

7 was just propaganda and I would always react decisively to such claims. I

8 knew for sure that within the Territorial Defence, and later on within the

9 3rd Corps, there were no units called MOS or the Muslim forces.

10 Q. But, sir, just to finish with this specific aspect as it relates

11 to the HVO, you've told us that the HVO referred to the 3rd Corps at times

12 as being the MOS. And so my question was, if you see a document of the

13 HVO that says "the MOS," would it follow that they were referring to the

14 3rd Corps?

15 A. As far as I can remember, the HVO never said that the 3rd Corps

16 was the MOS. They said that the 3rd Corps were the Muslim forces. The

17 MOS and the Muslim forces, well, the difference is huge. These are

18 different concepts. I don't know what you mean when you use these terms.

19 They did say that the 3rd Corps consisted of the Muslim forces or were the

20 Muslim forces, but they never said the 3rd Corps was identical to MOS. As

21 far as I know, they only said that the 3rd Corps represented in fact the

22 Muslim forces.

23 Q. Okay. Which, sir, gets me back to the question I asked you

24 earlier: If there was a difference between the MOS and the Muslimanske

25 Snage. And if there was a difference, if you could perhaps explain that

Page 13313

1 to us, please.

2 A. I've testified before this Tribunal on a number of occasions and

3 said that I had never seen the MOS or the Muslim forces, so I couldn't

4 explain the difference between these two terms. I don't know how to

5 explain this difference if I only heard rumours. I didn't see such units

6 in the field. I wasn't able to examine the structure, see who the members

7 were, who the members of the MOS and the Muslim forces were. This is an

8 absurd question for me. It's all on the level of hypothesis. I can't

9 testify about things I know nothing about. I don't know what the

10 difference between the MOS and the Muslim forces would be. I wouldn't be

11 able to say whether there is any such difference. I really don't know.

12 Q. Sir, the reason I ask is because on page 23, line 16 and 17, just

13 a few moments ago, the transcript of what you said is as follows: "The

14 MOS and the Muslim forces, well, the difference is huge." And that could

15 be an error, I don't know, because, unfortunately, I don't speak your

16 language, but now you've said you don't know what the difference between

17 the MOS and the MS would be, whereas just a moment ago the transcript

18 recorded you saying there was a huge difference.

19 So my question is: Was the MOS and the Muslimanske Snage the same

20 thing or different things; and if they were different, could you please

21 explain to us what the difference is.

22 A. If I initially said that there was a difference, later you put

23 detailed questions about this subject to me, well, I meant that MOS

24 consists of three words, Muslim forces consists of two words. That's the

25 difference I was referring to. I couldn't say what MOS is or what the

Page 13314

1 Muslim forces were. I really couldn't say. I can't tell you about things

2 I know nothing about. I don't know what you want me to say now. I could

3 say that I knew such an organisation if it existed, if I had seen those

4 people, if I knew those people, if I knew what their objectives were. In

5 such a case then I could tell you about the difference. But I don't know

6 what their objectives were, I don't know what the ideas were that the MOS

7 and the Muslim forces had. But this is something that is intangible for

8 me. I can't talk about something that I couldn't see or something that I

9 had no contact with. I only heard rumours. I've mentioned the occasions

10 on which I came across these terms. But when I mentioned the difference,

11 I said why I thought there was a difference. The terms used are

12 different. The MOS is a term that is different from Muslim forces.

13 Perhaps it's the term "Muslim" that is the term that is the common one.

14 If you ask me what armed forces are, I could answer that question, too.

15 But as to what the Muslim forces are and as to what the MOS is, I don't

16 know. I never saw such organisations, I never came across them.

17 Q. So I take it, sir, then, if I were to ask you who was in the MOS

18 or who was in the Muslimanske Snage, you wouldn't be able to assist us

19 with that either.

20 A. No, I couldn't answer that question because I don't know what

21 their objectives were. You might tell me that there was such-and-such a

22 person who was present there. If you mention his name, I might be able to

23 answer your question, but I don't know what the ideas or objectives of

24 such a man might be. It's only after I've spoken to a certain individual

25 that I could tell you about his objectives and ideas. I may have met

Page 13315












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Page 13316

1 certain individuals, but I haven't discussed the subject of such

2 individuals' objectives. I can't answer a question that's abstract. I

3 can answer specific questions, concrete questions. I can answer questions

4 about what I personally saw or what I have direct knowledge of.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, this might be an appropriate time for

6 our first technical break.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's half past 3.00.

8 We'll have our usual break. We'll resume at about 5 to 4.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume, and I give the

12 floor to Mr. Mundis.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. General, let me ask you just a few more questions concerning the

15 subject we were talking about before the break, and then we'll move on.

16 Earlier this afternoon, you mentioned a MOS insignia. That was at page

17 21, line 4. Do you recall ever seeing the MOS insignia?

18 A. I don't remember saying that I saw a MOS insignia. If I did say

19 so, I was referring to information according to which there were groups

20 called "the MOS." That's what I was told. But I don't remember saying

21 that I actually saw MOS insignia.

22 Q. No. My question was if you saw any -- the answer was, you said:

23 "As far as I know, there were some forces with the MOS insignia." That's

24 what the English transcript says. And so my question was, did you ever

25 see that? And I think you've told us that you may have had that

Page 13317

1 information now, but my question is did you ever see any person or persons

2 wearing a MOS insignia on their clothing?

3 A. Your Honours, if that's what I said, then that was a mistake. I

4 apologise. I had such information, but I did not actually see MOS units,

5 nor did I see the sort of insignia they had.

6 Q. Sir, do you ever recall seeing any documents of the municipal

7 defence staff or district staff making reference to the MOS or MS in late

8 1992 or early 1993?

9 A. I can't remember. But I wouldn't exclude that possibility. It

10 would be necessary for me to see the document in question to see whether

11 it's a document from the regional staff. I'd have to see the document in

12 order to answer such a question.

13 Q. Okay. Perhaps tomorrow we'll have the opportunity to look at some

14 of such documents. I was just asking you now if you recalled seeing any

15 such documents.

16 Now, sir, do you know whether any of the person or persons who

17 were with the MOS were subsequently in any units of the 3rd Corps?

18 A. I said that I knew members who were in the Patriotic League. I

19 also said that there were various such patriotic organisations. I don't

20 know all of them. I could tell you about the people who were in the

21 Patriotic League organisation, but I couldn't tell you anything about

22 other organisations which I did not see. I only came across people from

23 the Patriotic League. So as far as the Patriotic League is concerned, I

24 can ask you [as interpreted] questions about this organisation. But as

25 for the other patriotic forces, I couldn't tell you anything about them.

Page 13318

1 I wasn't with them and I don't know the people who were members of these

2 various patriotic organisations.

3 Q. Sir, you told us that, for example, with respect to the MOS

4 insignia, you said you had some information about that. Can you recall

5 any of the other information that you had about the MOS or the Muslimanske

6 Snage and where that information came from?

7 A. I apologise to the Trial Chamber. Perhaps I made a mistake. I

8 don't know what kind of insignia these people wore. I never had occasion

9 to see these people who were in a group or in some kind of an organisation

10 or who had organised themselves in some other way. I wasn't in a position

11 to see the sort of insignia that they wore. If I said I saw MOS insignia,

12 I made a mistake. I apologise.

13 I had information according to which there were people who had

14 organised themselves on a patriotic basis, and they called themselves MOS,

15 but I never saw such people, and I couldn't tell you anything about their

16 insignia because I never had the opportunity of seeing them.

17 Q. And sir, my question is, again, you just told us that you had

18 information according to which there were people who had organised

19 themselves and called themselves MOS. Do you recall any of the specific

20 information, other than what you just told us in very brief terms, about

21 the MOS?

22 A. Well, sir, I've already provided you with details about the first

23 time that I received information on the existence of groups that called

24 themselves the MOS. This occurred in a very difficult and complex

25 situation, and Your Honours, I have to repeat this to make sure that I am

Page 13319

1 correctly understood. When the aggressor took Jajce and when he was very

2 successful in the battlefield in the direction of Travnik on the Vlasic

3 plateau, and close to Karaula, in these areas there was fierce fighting

4 for every inch of land, for every house. People joined the fight to

5 defend their homes. A lot of people had come from Krajina, from the

6 surroundings of Banja Luka. There were a lot of people who had come from

7 Jajce. There was the Jajce Territorial Defence that was completely

8 dispersed. The situation was chaotic. It's difficult for me to make you

9 understand what the situation was like, but it was very complex.

10 I had information according to which everyone was involved in the

11 fighting and according to which there was a group that called themselves

12 the MOS. I didn't see them, but as I have said, later I tried to find out

13 something about them. I also said that I had information at the time, at

14 the beginning of November, according to which there were some foreigners

15 who were assisting the people in defending their homes, in defending the

16 Muslims in that area. But I didn't know who they were, how many of them

17 there were, or where they were. All I knew was at that point in time,

18 they were present in the area. This is something that I have testified

19 about before this Court, and I can repeat all of this if necessary.

20 Q. Sir, can you tell us what you knew about the MOS unit that was in

21 Travnik.

22 A. I wasn't aware of the existence of a MOS unit in Travnik. I said

23 that I had information according to which there were groups that had

24 organised themselves for the defence of Karaula, and they called

25 themselves the MOS. That's the information I had, but I did not see those

Page 13320

1 forces. I didn't see that MOS unit.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, we

3 have a bundle of documents that we would like to use for cross-examination

4 purposes, and we do have sufficient copies for everyone in the courtroom.

5 I'd ask that those be distributed now. As will become apparent once these

6 are distributed, all of the documents in this bundle are Prosecution

7 exhibits, and we have tabbed them in numerical order based on the

8 Prosecution number. That's not necessarily the order we'll be reviewing

9 them in, but they are tabbed numerically.

10 Q. Sir, I would ask you first, please turn to Prosecution Exhibit

11 P695.

12 A. I did not get the number. Could you please repeat it.

13 Q. P695. I ask you, sir, just to take a moment to take a look at

14 this document, and then I'll ask you a couple of questions about this

15 document.

16 A. Yes. I've found the document, and I've had a look.

17 Q. Now, sir, based on your previous answer, I assume that you've

18 never seen this document before. Would that be correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And sir, can you remind us what position you held on 15 September

21 1992.

22 A. On the 15th of September 1992, I was commander of the district

23 staff of defence for the region of Zenica.

24 Q. Now, sir, I would ask you, if you could, just look down the list

25 of the 80 individuals whose name appears on this document. And I would

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Page 13322

1 like you, once you've done that, just to indicate that you've done so.

2 A. I have seen the document and read the names.

3 Q. Sir, how many, if any, of these people listed under numbers 1

4 through 80 do you know?

5 A. I think I know one man from this list, if that is indeed the

6 person I know something about. As for the others on the list, they're

7 generally not familiar to me. Maybe I've heard something about a few of

8 them at some point, but I may really know only one person.

9 Q. And sir, would the person that you know on this list be Abdula

10 Makteuf?

11 A. I know the person under number 1, Ahmet Adilovic, if that is the

12 Ahmet Adilovic whom I had occasion to meet. The name coincides; the year

13 of birth as well. Maybe there are other people who happen to be called

14 Ahmet Adilovic and have the same father's name.

15 Q. And, sir, how do you know Ahmet Adilovic? In what context or what

16 capacity do you know Mr. Adilovic?

17 A. I didn't meet him on the 15th September 1992. I met him later, in

18 Zenica, and I had occasion to see him. He told me that he was an Efendi

19 by occupation, and I believe he told me then that he was a member of the

20 7th Muslim Brigade. At least, that's what he said. And again, I met him

21 several times after the war, and I believe that he was working in a

22 religious school, Medresa, after the war. If that is indeed the same

23 person, the same Ahmet Adilovic, then he is the one I know from this list.

24 Q. Sir, can you tell me approximately when Mr. Adilovic told you that

25 he was a member of the 7th Muslim Brigade? The year and month, if you

Page 13323

1 recall.

2 A. To the best of my recollection, it was in 1993. I can't remember

3 the month, but it could be the first half of 1993. But certainly not in

4 1992. I didn't know him in 1992.

5 Q. And sir, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber and the transcript,

6 can you tell us what an Efendi is.

7 A. An Efendi is a man with religious training and education who is at

8 the head of a community in a certain area. He leads prayers in that area

9 which Muslims called dzemat. You can say that he is the leader of

10 religious people at certain stages of prayer. I later found out that he

11 had graduated from theological schools, and that is probably why they put

12 him at the head of a Medresa.

13 Q. Sir, do you know the second person listed on this document, Abdula

14 Makteuf?

15 A. Recently, I've had an opportunity to read about him because it is

16 a name that has appeared frequently in the press in Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina. As far as I was able to understand from media reports, it

18 seems that there are proceedings against him going on, on suspicion that

19 he was involved in kidnappings of Croat nationals in Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina. That's what I learned from TV reports not long ago.

21 Q. Do you recall ever hearing the name or knowing Mr. Makteuf in

22 1992?

23 A. It is difficult for me to pronounce this name. I don't remember

24 ever meeting this man. I can't recall meeting him.

25 Q. Would that be the case in both 1992 and 1993; you don't recall

Page 13324

1 meeting Mr. Makteuf?

2 A. Yes, the same goes for 1992 and 1993.

3 Q. Would it assist your memory if I were to tell you that Mr. Makteuf

4 was born in Iraq and operated a video store in Travnik?

5 A. Doesn't ring a bell at all. I was living in the Republic of

6 Croatia and did not visit any video rental, especially not during the war.

7 I don't know exactly when he operated this video rental. I never go to

8 such places. When I have any time to spare, I spend it differently. I

9 don't go to discotheques at all. And it is quite certain that I have

10 never been in such a discotheque which was owned or run by this person

11 who, as you say, was from Iraq. I never had opportunity to get such

12 information or to attend personally.

13 Q. Sir, just so it's clear, I never mentioned anything about a

14 discotheque. Mr. Makteuf operated a video rental shop.

15 A. Well, that's even more remote from my life. I rarely have the

16 time even to read a good book, let alone watch a video. And I never saw a

17 place where videos would be rented or sold. I don't know anything about

18 this man. I later found out that he used to own a different kind of

19 company, a company called Palma, which was in the broadcasting business, a

20 totally different business. But I never knew that he ran a video rental.

21 Q. And what kind of broadcasting business was Palma, and when did you

22 find out that Mr. Makteuf ran this company?

23 A. I don't know all the lines of business they were in. But it also

24 involved commerce. There was a shop among the other properties of that

25 company. And I only later heard that he was the owner of that company.

Page 13325

1 Maybe he was an employee, but nobody had told me that he was the actual

2 owner.

3 Q. Okay. But sir, just so that we're 100 per cent clear, you never

4 met with Mr. Makteuf in 1992?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. And you never met with Mr. Makteuf in 1993?

7 A. That, too, is correct. To the best of my recollection, I didn't

8 meet him even then.

9 Q. Would it assist your recollection if I were to tell you again that

10 Mr. Makteuf was a rather large-set -- rather large man and that he was

11 from Iraq. Do you remember meeting any such person in 1992 or 1993?

12 A. Speaking of 1992 and 1993, I met many, many people over those

13 years, and it doesn't ring a bell at all when you tell me that he was a

14 large-set man. It doesn't tell me anything. It's a very broad term.

15 Q. Let's move on, General. I would ask you to look at the name

16 listed under number 16 on Prosecution Exhibit P695. Do you know Ramo

17 Durmis?

18 A. Never heard the name. Never seen a person called Ramo Durmis.

19 Q. So you can't tell us anything whatsoever about Ramo Durmis?

20 A. No, I can't say anything because I don't know the man. I don't

21 know who he is. I said exactly who I might know from this list, and that

22 is that could be, if it is the same person, Ahmet Adilovic.

23 Q. And just so we're clear, then, sir, none of the other names on

24 P695 are familiar to you, nor do you have any recollection of meeting or

25 knowing any of those people?

Page 13326

1 A. Right, except for Ahmet Adilovic, if it is indeed the person I

2 know something about, if it's not an entirely different person. At least,

3 if I was able to read this list fully, there are certain names that are

4 familiar, but if you match the surnames with those names, I can't really

5 identify any of them.

6 Q. And sir, what exactly do you mean by "there are certain names that

7 are familiar"? Can you help us out by what you mean there.

8 A. Well, as far as I know, for instance, I know another Adilovic, but

9 I did my secondary school in Travnik and graduated in 1986. I graduated

10 the four-year secondary school in Travnik, and I knew a lot of people with

11 similar surnames. But the only person I can identify by both first and

12 last name is Ahmet Adilovic. I have encountered some of these surnames

13 taken separately before, but nobody matches by both name and surname.

14 There are several Adilovics even on this list.

15 Q. Let me ask you, sir, one final question about this document: The

16 person who signed this document, Lieutenant Colonel Redzic, do you know

17 that person or have you ever heard of that person?

18 A. No. No, I don't know this man personally, and I can't remember

19 meeting him. Maybe indeed I did meet him at some point. Maybe he can

20 confirm whether we had met or not. You have to understand that situation

21 that prevailed in that particular month, September 1992. I'm not sure

22 that this document was drafted exactly when it says on the document. I

23 was so busy, I couldn't always remember my own name. I spent all my time

24 touring the field. You should ask this person whether he had ever met me,

25 because I can't remember seeing him. I was the commander and everybody

Page 13327












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Page 13328

1 knew me as such. I, in my turn, could not know everybody I came in

2 contact with, and when I was touring a large region, people would point me

3 out as the commander, so in that way, maybe this Redzic encountered me in

4 the same way, or maybe I was pointed out to him so he can say that he knew

5 me. But it would be a good idea for you to contact him and ask because I

6 personally don't remember ever seeing this man.

7 Q. Sir, I asked you this question because you've told us that there

8 weren't a lot of trained, senior officers available within the 3rd Corps

9 zone. And it would seem that if there was a lieutenant colonel in

10 Travnik, that you may have encountered him at some point in time or may

11 have known him because there probably weren't a great number of lieutenant

12 colonels in Travnik in September 1992. That's why I asked that question.

13 A. You're completely right in saying that if I only had known that

14 there were lieutenant colonels in that staff in Travnik, I would have sent

15 my military police officers to bring him to work for me. I didn't know a

16 single lieutenant colonel, apart from myself. Only when General

17 Hadzihasanovic showed up, he was the second in that rank that I knew. If

18 I was aware of this person's existence at the time, I would have literally

19 sent military police to fetch him to work for my staff.

20 Q. Now, sir, one last question about this document, I hope: You just

21 said, and this is at line 20 on page 35: "I'm not sure that this document

22 was drafted exactly when it says on the document." I'm wondering what the

23 basis for that statement was since you've told us that you never saw this

24 document before.

25 A. I have no reason to doubt what you're saying. I have complete

Page 13329

1 trust in you, and if you say that that is indeed a genuine document that

2 you marked as P695, I believe that you found it where you say you found

3 it. I am taking your word for it. I have no particular reason to deny

4 it, but I am indeed seeing it for the first time. I assert that strongly.

5 Q. Sir, I'm going to move on now to a different topic, and that topic

6 is the mujahedin --

7 MR. MUNDIS: Sorry.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just before you move on, because

9 we might forget later, I have one question.

10 Witness, could you please look at the last page of this document.

11 You've seen that there is a stamp here with writing in Arabic that I

12 cannot decipher. And then below, it says "Muslim forces." There is a

13 saber drawn, and the number 3. Can you tell us whether one can conclude,

14 based on this stamp, that it is a military stamp of any type?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As commander of the staff at the

16 time, I can state with full responsibility that the Territorial Defence

17 did not have such a stamp, and I can also state with equal certainty that

18 this stamp has nothing to do with Territorial Defence or the staff of

19 Territorial Defence of the Municipality of Travnik.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but that was not the

21 meaning of my question. This stamp does not look as a military stamp,

22 particularly as it is bearing number 3. We have heard before a witness, a

23 high-ranking military officer, who explained to us that military stamps

24 bore numbers 1, 2, and 3, with 1 meaning the supreme, highest ranking

25 commander; number 2 meaning deputy or assistant; whereas number 3 stood

Page 13330

1 for chief of staff. Since we see the number 3 here, what can you tell us

2 about this? Because this stamp is rather elaborate, and the person who

3 made it must have followed certain rules in manufacturing the stamp. I'm

4 asking you as a general of the army, does this stamp tell you anything?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I state with full

6 responsibility that, as you say, under the current system of command and

7 control, numbers 1, 2, or 3 may designate officers of various ranks in the

8 chain of command. But this stamp does not look to me as the stamp of

9 armed forces, at least for the region of Travnik. I don't know about

10 other regions. The legal staff, the legitimate staff of the armed forces

11 in Travnik was our staff, and I can state with full responsibility that

12 this is not the legitimate stamp of the armed forces of Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina. That much, I can say.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. General, we're now going to turn to the issue of the mujahedin, or

17 foreign fighters. You told us that the first time you ever saw any of the

18 mujahedin was at the Guca Gora monastery in mid-June 1993. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. That's correct. I didn't know that they were mujahedin. But the

21 first time I heard about the mujahedin was when I visited the village of

22 Miletici. It was in mid-June near the church in Guca Gora that I first

23 had the occasion of seeing such a group. I'm not sure whether this was a

24 group of mujahedin, but I assume that that is what they were.

25 Nevertheless, I can't be sure.

Page 13331

1 Q. Now, you've talked about the presence of foreigners in the area,

2 and I would like to try to draw a distinction between those foreigners who

3 may have been there for humanitarian purposes and those foreigners who

4 were there as fighters. And I would like to make this distinction because

5 it's a little bit confusing from the transcript last week, when there are

6 references to foreigners, whether those were fighters or humanitarian

7 workers of some kind. And I'd like to ask you some questions to try to

8 clarify that.

9 When did you first become aware of the presence of foreign

10 fighters - mujahedin - in Central Bosnia?

11 A. I mentioned an event that I participated in to an extent. This

12 concerned the kidnapping of an HVO -- of an HVO officer in April 1993.

13 According to information, we heard there were foreigners involved in the

14 kidnapping who were in contact with the international community, and in

15 particular, with the European monitors. When we noticed that this was

16 being done by a group that wasn't under the control of the ABiH, or

17 rather, that wasn't under the control of the 3rd Corps, this really

18 demonstrated that there was a militant group of foreigners present in the

19 area, and they weren't under the control of the 3rd Corps.

20 This showed us that there was a group of foreigners that wasn't

21 under the control of the 3rd Corps, and it was a group of military kind.

22 I have spoken about this in detail. I spoke about this event before this

23 Chamber last week.

24 Q. So to the best of your recollection, sir, the first time you were

25 aware of mujahedin in Central Bosnia was at or around the time Zivko Totic

Page 13332

1 was kidnapped; middle of April of 1993?

2 A. As I have said, we had intelligence and we had information

3 obtained earlier on. But in fact, they weren't a problem for us. We

4 weren't aware of this problem. As I said, I had information according to

5 which a small group of foreigners had been observed in the course of 1992

6 in the month of November in the area of Karaula. I have also said that we

7 had information according to which one group was engaged in lifting the

8 blockade of Sarajevo, in December 1992. So we did have certain

9 information, and our services tried to determine the identity of these

10 people, but we weren't able to do so. And it was only when this HVO

11 officer was kidnapped that a serious problem arose. But when this officer

12 was kidnapped, at that time we weren't aware of the problem. We only

13 found out about it subsequently, when the European monitors obtained more

14 reliable information on the identity of those who had kidnapped this

15 officer. They had obtained more reliable information than the information

16 that the 3rd Corps had.

17 Q. Sir, we will spend a little bit of time either later this

18 afternoon or again tomorrow talking specifically about the Totic

19 kidnapping and the steps you took with respect to that kidnapping. I'm

20 trying to focus now just on the issue of the mujahedin and when you became

21 aware of them, and I think you've answered that question.

22 At what point in time did the mujahedin become a problem for the

23 3rd Corps? Was it at the time of the Totic kidnapping? Was it at the

24 time of the Miletici killings? Or was it at some other point in time?

25 When did you and the corps commander come to the conclusion that the

Page 13333












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Page 13334

1 mujahedin were a problem or a significant problem in the 3rd Corps' area

2 of responsibility?

3 A. As I have already said - I think I mentioned this last week - we

4 realised that the presence of foreigners was a serious problem. I don't

5 know whether they called them the mujahedin at the time. I wasn't even

6 familiar with this term. I didn't know what it meant. And to this very

7 day, I couldn't really explain to you the meaning of the term "mujahedin."

8 I use the terms that are in current use. In the case of the events of

9 Miletici, the Croats and the Serbs referred to the mujahedin.

10 Trying to answer your question, this was a serious problem for us,

11 the fact that there was a group of foreigners. There was a problem. I

12 don't know what they called them, but this group of foreigners could be a

13 serious problem for the 3rd Corps, and this is what took place when an HVO

14 officer was kidnapped. This is when this problem arose. When this

15 officer was kidnapped, on that day we didn't know the identity of the

16 persons who had kidnapped him. We found out about his identity at a later

17 date.

18 Q. So, sir, if I understand you correctly, you came to the conclusion

19 that the mujahedin were a significant problem once you determined that

20 they were responsible for the kidnapping of Zivko Totic? Is that correct?

21 A. You are using the term "the mujahedin." If you say that these

22 foreigners were called the mujahedin, I will accept that. But I don't

23 know who these foreigners were.

24 Q. Sir, what was the term that you used to describe these people?

25 Was it simply "foreigners" or was it "Arabs" or was it "mujahedin"? What

Page 13335

1 term do you feel most comfortable using? And I will adapt my questions to

2 avoid causing any confusion.

3 A. I hope that we can use one term to refer to the same group of

4 people, to a group of people who share similar characteristics. This will

5 help us to avoid any confusion. I'll accept the term that you decide to

6 use. Then I'll know what you are referring to when you put a question to

7 me.

8 Q. Sir, I would actually rather do it the opposite way. You tell me

9 what term you prefer to use or which term you used at the time, in 1993,

10 to discuss these people or to refer to these people, and I will use that

11 word or term.

12 A. Initially, I thought that this was a group of people from

13 countries in the East. Later, I heard that people would call them the

14 mujahedin. So we can speak about this event in such terms. I'll accept

15 that.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, I must intervene

17 because you are inverting the question. The Prosecution is asking you to

18 say how you would describe them, and you are saying, no, you say whatever

19 you like and I'll follow your usage. But the Prosecution wants to know

20 how you called them at the time. That is the question being put to you.

21 So please, answer the question. Say you didn't have a name for them, or

22 you called them "the Arabs" or you called them "mujahedin" or you called

23 them "X," "Y," or "Z." This is what we would like to hear. We don't want

24 to hear what the Prosecution calls them and then have you use the same

25 term. You are being asked this, not the Prosecution. Do you understand?

Page 13336

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do understand.

2 Before I heard the term "the mujahedin," I used the expression "a group of

3 foreigners."


5 Q. Now, sir, I will use the term "a group of foreigners," to refer to

6 these people, but I want to also avoid any confusion that this group of

7 foreigners included humanitarian workers. Do you understand the

8 difference that I'm trying to make?

9 A. Yes. I fully understand the distinction you are making.

10 Q. Just so we're clear then, prior to April 1993, you didn't consider

11 that there were any problems with the foreigners in Central Bosnia?

12 A. I remember that there were requests. This is something I have

13 testified about. There were some people, or foreigners, who were detained

14 in HVO prisons. And when there were discussions with the HVO, because

15 that was the only way of communicating with the HVO, there were requests

16 from the Ministry of the Interior and from humanitarian organisations, and

17 it was said that they were looking for foreigners. I have testified about

18 this already. But when there were these searches for foreigners, well,

19 these requests for communication with the HVO went through me. There were

20 a few people, three, four, five, I think, I don't know how many exactly,

21 but we received requests to seek for such foreigners. I don't know what

22 capacity they were there in, but there was such a group of foreigners.

23 But this wasn't a problem for the 3rd Corps; at least, not at the time.

24 Q. My question, sir, concerns when these foreigners became a problem.

25 And I'm trying to get from you an answer to the question at what point the

Page 13337

1 foreigners became a significant problem for the 3rd Corps.

2 A. Foreigners became a significant problem for the 3rd Corps when we

3 discovered that HVO officers had been kidnapped. By those foreigners,

4 naturally.

5 Q. Thank you. Prior to that point in time, sir, were you personally

6 involved in any investigations or any efforts to find out about potential

7 crimes involving these foreigners prior to the HVO kidnappings in the

8 middle of April 1993?

9 A. As far as I can remember, apart from the requests to release

10 people from HVO prisons, I can't remember anything else.

11 Q. If I were to ask you about some events in February 1993 in Bijelo

12 Bucje, does that refresh your recollection in any way?

13 A. I can't remember that it was in that month. I remember a

14 different problem in the Bijelo Bucje area, towards the end of August, if

15 I'm not mistaken, when an operations officer from the 3rd Corps who was

16 visiting the units discovered that there were problems there. But at the

17 time, the El Mujahid detachment had already been formed. That was at the

18 end of August, if I remember correctly. Or perhaps it was the beginning

19 of September. I can't remember the exact date, but I do know there were

20 problems at the time with that group of foreigners. But at that time, the

21 El Mujahid detachment had already been formed. As for other details, I

22 can't remember. I can't remember any other events, but I wouldn't exclude

23 that possibility. However, I didn't receive any such information.

24 Q. Sir, do you recall being involved in any kind of investigation or

25 inquiries concerning the murder of two British citizens in the area of

Page 13338

1 Travnik in February of 1993 in which the conclusion was that the crimes

2 were committed by foreigners?

3 A. I had received information according to which two Englishmen had

4 been killed. As I said, the services continued to investigate matters. I

5 don't know what information these services obtained. I don't know whether

6 they discovered that the group of foreigners we had been referring to

7 committed this act or someone else. But I did have the opportunity of

8 seeing those two Englishmen who were killed. They were transferred to the

9 Zenica hospital, and that was the first time that I saw them, in the

10 Zenica hospital. That's correct.

11 Q. Let me ask you now, sir: You told us earlier that you and the

12 leadership of the corps were unaware of the location of these foreigners,

13 and also the precise number of these foreigners. And you told us about

14 that on the 9th of December. Do you remember telling the Trial Chamber

15 that?

16 A. Yes, that's what I said, I do remember that.

17 Q. And you also said, sir, that the foreigners were highly mobile.

18 A. Yes, I remember saying that, too.

19 Q. Now, sir, when you told us that you were unaware of their location

20 and their numbers, did that remain the case through 1993 or was that

21 limited to a certain point in time? In other words, did there come a time

22 when you knew where they were located and you knew how many of them or

23 approximately how many of them there were in Central Bosnia?

24 A. As far as 1992 and 1993 is concerned, well, I didn't know their

25 exact location at that time. I knew they were somewhere in the Travnik

Page 13339












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Page 13340

1 area. But I don't know whether it was at the end of 1993 or at the

2 beginning of 1994 when their main location was in Zenica, in the Podbrezje

3 area. I have testified about this before the Court. I couldn't give you

4 an exact date, but it was either towards the end of 1993 or the beginning

5 of 1994. That was the first time I had the opportunity of visiting that

6 unit in Podbrezje, at the beginning of 1994.

7 Q. And now, sir, when you say visiting "that unit," are you

8 referring to the El Mujahid detachment, or the El Mujahid unit?

9 A. Yes, that's the unit I'm referring to.

10 Q. Prior to the end of 1993/1994, you're telling us you did not know

11 where these foreigners were within the 3rd Corps' zone of responsibility.

12 Is that correct?

13 A. That's correct. I personally did not know where they were.

14 Q. When you said, sir, that you weren't aware or you didn't know how

15 many of them there were, can you give us a rough idea or a rough

16 approximation as to the information the 3rd Corps had about the number of

17 these foreigners that were in Central Bosnia?

18 A. I don't think that the ABiH 3rd Corps ever had any information on

19 the number of foreigners in the El Mujahid detachment in 1993 or 1994 or

20 1995. I don't think anyone knew how many foreigners there were in the El

21 Mujahid detachment.

22 Q. Sir, you're telling me that there was a unit of the 3rd Corps, and

23 the leadership of the 3rd Corps didn't know how many people were in that

24 unit?

25 A. It wasn't my duty within the 3rd Corps to know how many men there

Page 13341

1 were in all the units. And the El Mujahid detachment, as part of the 3rd

2 Corps, was composed of those foreigners and of the local population. I

3 don't know how many foreigners there were in that 3rd Corps unit, in that

4 El Mujahid unit. All I can say is that I don't remember that the 3rd

5 Corps ever had detailed information on the number of foreigners who were

6 in that 3rd Corps unit, in the 3rd Corps unit that was called the El

7 Mujahid unit.

8 Q. Let me ask you, then, sir, about prior to the formation of that

9 unit, in the first, say, six or seven months of 1993. How many foreigners

10 were in Central Bosnia? And again, I'm talking about armed foreigners,

11 not humanitarian workers. How many of them were there?

12 A. I understand your question. And I think that we have defined this

13 group of foreigners. As I said, according to the information we had, and

14 in particular the information obtained by the 3rd Corps Operations Group,

15 as far as I know, it wasn't possible for them to assess the number of

16 foreigners present in the 3rd Corps' zone of responsibility. I said that

17 in mid-June 1993, I personally saw them by the church in Guca Gora. I

18 said that I saw between 10 and 15 of them but I don't know what kind of

19 information the security service within the 3rd Corps had.

20 Q. If you can, sir, if you can give us a rough approximation, that

21 would be helpful. Were there 20 of them? Were there 200? Were there

22 2.000? Were there 20.000? Were there more than 200.000? How many of

23 these people were there?

24 A. Naturally, I could make a rough estimate. We didn't even have

25 200.000 men in the ABiH -- or in the 3rd Corps -- I mean, in the zone of

Page 13342

1 responsibility of the 3rd Corps. It's very difficult for me to provide

2 you with an exact number. There weren't 200.000 of them. There weren't

3 20.000 of them. There weren't 5.000 of them. Perhaps there were between

4 50 and a hundred of them. Now you'll ask me how I know this. I'm telling

5 you that I don't have any such information. I can't give you a precise

6 estimate. I can tell you that there weren't 200.000 of them, but there

7 weren't 5.000 of them either. But as to how many of them there were, I

8 couldn't say. I saw a group consisting of 10 to 15 of them. And on that

9 basis, I could conclude that there were 10 to 15 or more. Perhaps there

10 were 50 or a hundred of them. I can't say for sure.

11 Q. Well, sir, perhaps the very fact that when they were put into the

12 unit, the El Mujahid detachment, can give us some occasion as to the

13 number of them. They weren't formed into a brigade-sized unit or a

14 battalion-sized unit; they were formed into something smaller than a

15 battalion. Isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes, in military terminology, a detachment is a smaller unit than

17 a battalion. Therefore, those are units the size of about two companies.

18 In other words, 220 to 250 people. But I said that in those detachments

19 -- in that detachment, El Mujahid, there were not only foreigners, there

20 were also Bosniaks, locals, who joined the unit. So we're talking about a

21 number of approximately 250 men in the El Mujahid unit. Not all of them

22 were foreigners.

23 Q. Precisely. Your estimate was of the roughly 250 men that were in

24 the El Mujahid detachment, 50 to 100 of them were foreigners. I don't

25 want to put words in your mouth, sir, but that's what you've told us;

Page 13343

1 there were perhaps 50 or 100 of them. If you want to correct that, that's

2 fine.

3 A. Well, that's not what I said. I said only what I've seen. And I

4 gave only a rough assessment of how many men there could have been in the

5 El Mujahid unit, and the only thing I actually claimed was that not all of

6 them were foreigners. The majority of them were locals from Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina. If there were 250 or so in total, I can't say that 50 to 100

8 were foreigners and all the others were Bosniaks or people from Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina. I'm just saying that I have no information that the 3rd

10 Corps ever knew exactly the number of foreigners within the El Mujahid

11 unit. Maybe some other service within the 3rd Corps knew that. Maybe

12 some other service who was directly assigned that job, whose job it was to

13 know. But I can't know that.

14 Q. But you've told us that the number of foreigners in Central Bosnia

15 was between 50 and 100, approximately. That's all I'm asking. I don't

16 necessarily need a specific number, because you've told us you can't give

17 a specific number. Just an approximate number, and you've told us on two

18 occasions, on page 48, that there were between 50 and 100 foreigners.

19 A. I really find these questions very difficult. But let us conclude

20 this discussion. I cannot confirm anything. I just explained to you my

21 thinking. I know that there were no such armed foreigners - I already

22 explained what I mean by that - in the area of the 3rd Corps. But

23 obviously, there was a problem for the 3rd Corps. Maybe other corps

24 encountered similar problems. I only told you as much as I knew. I

25 assume, as I said, there were 50 to 100, so we can leave it at that.

Page 13344

1 These questions are really very difficult for me. You're asking me to say

2 something that I cannot say with any certainty. I'm just giving you my

3 opinion. I told you what I know and what I have seen. I have already

4 said before this Honourable Court what I know and what I have seen. And

5 when I cannot remember something, I'll indicate that. And if you want to

6 quote me as saying that there were 50 to 100, then let's leave it at that.

7 Q. Let me ask you about the mobility of these foreigners, and I'm

8 talking now, sir, about the time period prior to the formation of the El

9 Mujahid detachment; that is, the first, say, six or seven months of 1993.

10 You told us that the foreigners were mobile within the area of Central

11 Bosnia. Is that right?

12 A. I said that those were figures. That was the information that was

13 available to me; that they were mobile and they were moving around Central

14 Bosnia. However, I had no occasion to see it with my own eyes. What I

15 can state with certainty is that I had some reports to that effect.

16 That's what I said.

17 Q. Did those reports provide you with any information as to how these

18 people moved about in Central Bosnia?

19 A. Those were not exactly reports. As a soldier, I have a totally

20 different understanding of the word "report." When I receive a report,

21 there is some information indicated in it, as opposed to some intelligence

22 I received in some other way through some other channels. However, our

23 intelligence service at that point was not able to give us exact numbers

24 of these people or their location, so the service who was in charge of

25 making assessments or evaluations tried to give us an estimate of their

Page 13345












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Page 13346

1 mobility and number.

2 Q. Again, sir, my question is: How did they move about? How did

3 they get from one place to another? Did the information that you had

4 provide any insight into how these people moved around?

5 A. I did not have information of that degree of detail. Nothing that

6 would tell me how they moved through Central Bosnia.

7 Q. Do you have any idea, sir, how they got through the various HVO

8 checkpoints that you've talked about that were in Central Bosnia? Do you

9 have any idea how, or did you have any information as to how they were

10 able to get through HVO checkpoints?

11 A. I have already testified before this Honourable Court how these

12 foreigners were able to come into Bosnia and Herzegovina in the first

13 place. I said they were stopped and checked at every checkpoint held by

14 the Croatian Defence Council. I can only say that they must have been

15 arrested, too, taken to military prisons, because later on, exchanges took

16 place in the area of the 3rd Corps involving foreigners and observers from

17 the European Union Monitoring Mission, which only goes to show that the

18 HVO had good information about those foreigners, and it is certain that

19 they must have entered Bosnia and Herzegovina from the Republic of

20 Croatia. Therefore, I suppose that the HVO was much better informed than

21 we were in the 3rd Corps.

22 Q. Well, let me ask you just a couple of questions about that.

23 You've told us that these people, these foreigners, must have come into

24 the country from Croatia, and it was also the case, was it not, that when

25 the war in Bosnia first started in 1992, in the spring of 1992, the

Page 13347

1 Bosniaks and the Croats for the most part were allied against the Serbian

2 forces in Bosnia? Isn't that true?

3 A. Croatian -- rather, HVO units and the units of the ABiH had not

4 joined yet at that time, and they did not perform joint operations, as far

5 as I know, at least not in the area of responsibility which I controlled,

6 first as commander of the staff, and later as deputy commander of the 3rd

7 Corps. There had been attempts to unite the two forces, but they had not

8 been successful at that time.

9 Q. In the summer of 1992, were the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian

10 Muslims united, as a general rule, in defending themselves against the

11 Bosnian Serbs?

12 A. They were not united. But they were defending themselves from the

13 aggressor. That's true. But at that time, they were not united.

14 Q. Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Muslims were not cooperating to

15 defend themselves against the Bosnian Serbs in the summer of 1992?

16 A. Your Honour, maybe it was a slip of tongue -- slip of the tongue

17 on my part. I meant the HVO and the units of the Territorial Defence of

18 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In TO units, there were Bosniaks,

19 Serbs, and Croats. All patriotically oriented citizens of Bosnia from all

20 three ethnic communities were represented in units of the TO. That was

21 the reality at the beginning of the war.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: I just wanted to object because the witness said

23 HVO and the Army of the BH were not united but they were fighting a common

24 aggressor. The question that followed from my colleague, whether they

25 were united, did not follow from the witness's answer. Since he asked

Page 13348

1 whether they were united, he was not relying on the witness's answer.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have an objection

3 from the Defence. Mr. Mundis, what do you have to say in response to the

4 objection at page 52:24, line 24?

5 MR. MUNDIS: I don't really have much to add, Mr. President.

6 There's no necessary requirement that one question follow from another

7 question. The witness's answer was such that he basically said there had

8 been attempts to unite the forces, they had been unsuccessful, and my

9 question was, as a general rule, were the peoples united? It's a

10 different question. It's not one that was designed to confuse the

11 witness. I believe the witness has gone on and clarified the answer so

12 that, in the event there was any confusion, it seems to have disappeared

13 in light of the witness's clarification.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 Yes, the witness did clarify his answer from line 18, page 52.

16 It is now 5.30. We're going to take the break now because we have

17 been sitting for an hour and a half almost. And we'll resume at 5 to 6.00

18 or so.

19 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We can resume our

22 hearing.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. General, I suggest to you that the mujahedin -- or excuse me, the

25 foreigners came into Bosnia as early as the summer of 1992 to join in the

Page 13349

1 fight against the Serbs in Bosnia. Would you agree with that comment?

2 A. At that time, I did not know that. But I said that after an awful

3 catastrophe that happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina, many people in the world

4 wanted to help actively Bosnia-Herzegovina.

5 Q. And that would include these foreign fighters, these foreigners?

6 A. Yes. They all came to help Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 Q. Now, sir, you've told us over several days that these foreigners

8 from April -- mid-April onwards, 1993 -- mid-April 1993 onwards, caused

9 problems for the 3rd Corps of the ABiH. Is that accurate?

10 A. Yes. Serious problems.

11 Q. And you also told us last Thursday, and let me actually read from

12 the transcript of what you said. This is the testimony of the 9th of

13 December, page 60, lines 11 through 14. You said: "The 3rd Corps did not

14 have enough capabilities to deal with the problem, and we said that to our

15 superior command at the first meeting that we had with the topic of

16 foreigners on the agenda."

17 And my question, sir, is what did you mean when you said "The 3rd

18 Corps did not have enough capabilities to deal with the problem..."?

19 A. Yes. "Capabilities," though, is a broad term. We did not have

20 enough forces, we did not have enough information; how many men there

21 were, how well-trained they are, how well-equipped. We got all our

22 information from the competent service, one of whose assignments was to

23 find out who these people were who were causing us problems, and that is

24 something that I already talked about. The 3rd Corps at the time did not

25 have enough resources, and therefore did not have the capability to deal

Page 13350

1 with the problem. That's the way I put it.

2 Q. Now, General, I assume, and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm

3 wrong, but I assume that the HVO and the Bosnian Croat civilian population

4 also viewed these foreigners as a problem.

5 A. Yes, I share that opinion.

6 Q. So it would seem as though the problems associated with these

7 foreigners was a mutual problem of the ABiH and the HVO.

8 A. Well, I cannot say yes or no to this question. It is a complex

9 problem. I said we didn't know how many of those people had entered and

10 in which way. I said the HVO was controlling entry to the Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina, and they were better placed to assess how many of them were

12 entering and what kind of men they were. Much better placed than we were

13 in the 3rd Corps. They probably were a problem to the Croatian Defence

14 Council and the Croatian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, just as they were

15 for us, the Bosniak people. To whom they represented a greater problem,

16 it is now difficult to say.

17 Q. Well, certainly in light of the conclusions that the 3rd Corps

18 reached, that these people were responsible for crimes committed against

19 Bosnian Croat civilians or surrendered HVO soldiers, they would certainly

20 be a problem for the Bosnian Croat population and the HVO as a whole.

21 A. Well, that's true. In addition to the fact that the HVO

22 controlled their entry into Bosnia and Herzegovina, if we speak about

23 Miletici village, they were closer to the HVO in that locality. And they

24 could as easily investigate those crimes as we had tried to investigate

25 them in the 3rd Corps. I have no knowledge, though, whether the HVO

Page 13351












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Page 13352

1 really investigated those crimes or not. I simply have no information

2 about that.

3 Q. You told us on Friday that it was possible when the ABiH and the

4 HVO identified issues of mutual concern, to try to work together to solve

5 these problems.

6 A. We had the ability to cooperate, but in fact, we did not receive

7 complete information from the HVO as to how many foreigners had entered.

8 I mean, the same kind of foreigners that you mean, how many of them had

9 entered Bosnia and Herzegovina. So in that area, we did not cooperate,

10 although I agree we could have.

11 Q. That brings me to my next point, sir: Would it have been

12 possible, or did you ever -- let me ask it that way: Did you ever propose

13 to Colonel Blaskic or Colonel Nakic a cease-fire so that the 3rd Corps

14 could solve the problem presented by these foreigners?

15 A. At this moment, I can't remember if there was such a possibility.

16 I can't remember that we discussed the problem of the foreigners in that

17 way, in those terms. I know that they represented a problem to both

18 sides. How they dealt with it, I don't know. I know how we tried to deal

19 with it. Obviously, we did not cooperate enough in that area. At the

20 time when they were entering, we were not able to check who they were, how

21 many, what kind of documents they had. At the state border of Croatia,

22 the Croatians were at least able to see their passports, to see their

23 names. We didn't even have the ability to do that. We didn't even know

24 on what kind of passports they entered, what names were in those

25 passports. When I told earlier that they were told at some point that

Page 13353

1 they should show their documents and if they weren't willing to do so,

2 they should leave Bosnia and Herzegovina, I know that one group who was

3 unwilling to comply were eventually expelled from Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 Q. Again, sir, my question was: Did you ever propose a cease-fire to

5 Colonel Blaskic or Colonel Nakic so that the 3rd Corps could solve the

6 problems presented by the foreigners?

7 A. I cannot recall that. But I don't rule out that possibility. I

8 just don't remember.

9 Q. Do you recall ever proposing to Colonel Blaskic or Colonel Nakic

10 that the ABiH 3rd Corps and the HVO Central Bosnia operational zone units

11 undertake joint operations to concentrate their forces on resolving once

12 and for all the problem presented by these foreigners?

13 A. That, I cannot remember.

14 Q. I ask these questions, sir, because you've told us that the 3rd

15 Corps did not have the capabilities to solve this problem; you've told us

16 that there were 50 to 100 of these foreigners. And it would seem that if

17 the 20-plus thousand soldiers of the 3rd Corps couldn't solve it by

18 themselves that a combined force of the HVO and the ABiH in Central Bosnia

19 might be able to do the job.

20 A. My testimony that was just quoted here refers to 1994, early 1994.

21 I said that in 1993, before the establishment of the El Mujahid

22 detachment, we were not aware of what kind of troops they were. We were

23 trying to find out the details, and I testified before this Court that we

24 had had information that they were handing out money to the people, food,

25 that they were marrying young girls from local families, especially

Page 13354

1 families that had many children or large families, and we didn't know

2 exactly to what extent they were intermarrying, but we knew that that was

3 going on. We did not have enough forces to confront them. We needed a

4 lot of resources, equipment, and troops to face the aggressor. And we

5 were not in a position to open up a third front line.

6 Can you imagine a soldier who is, of his own free will, opening up

7 a third front line if he's not able to handle the two existing ones facing

8 one of the best-trained and one of the best-equipped armies of the world?

9 As I said, we did not have enough real information to confront this group

10 of armed foreigners.

11 Q. Sir, let me go back then and ask you once again, in the first six

12 months of 1993, how many foreigners - and again, armed foreigners - were

13 in Central Bosnia? Because now you seem to be saying that the number 50

14 to a hundred was in response to early 1994. I want to be very clear: I'm

15 talking about the first six months of 1993. What is your best estimate of

16 the number of armed foreigners in Central Bosnia?

17 A. You've put a precise question to me. We were talking about the El

18 Mujahid detachment. I must remind you that this detachment was formed at

19 the beginning of August 1993. In the first half of 1993, we had no

20 information. It was very difficult to assess how many foreigners there

21 were. I don't know how many foreigners there were at the beginning or in

22 the middle of 1993. I said that while I was in the 3rd Corps, I, at

23 least, had no information according to which we knew the exact number of

24 foreigners who were in the El Mujahid unit. And it's even more difficult

25 for me to know how many of them there were before the formation of the El

Page 13355

1 Mujahid detachment. You're asking me to tell you about something that I

2 know nothing about. I can't tell you about something that I have no

3 knowledge about. I can tell you about things that I know. I can provide

4 you with the information I have. I don't know how many foreigners there

5 were in mid-1993.

6 Q. Okay. General, on page 47, beginning at line 9, I asked you a

7 series of questions concerning these numbers. And the first one of those

8 questions was, "Prior to the formation of that unit, in the first six or

9 seven months of 1993, how many foreigners were in Central Bosnia?" You

10 then told us that you only were aware of the 10 to 15 you saw in Guca

11 Gora. I asked you to give us a rough approximation. That's line 21 of

12 page 47. I then threw out some hypothetical numbers. You might remember

13 that. You responded, beginning on line 25 of page 47 and continued until

14 page 48.

15 And you told us on lines 10 and 11 -- excuse me, 9, 10, and 11,

16 that there were perhaps 50 or a hundred of them. You also told us on page

17 48 at line 5, there were 50 or a hundred of them. Those were all in

18 response to a question that indicated I was talking about the first six

19 months of 1993. Are you now telling us that you don't know how many

20 foreigners were in Central Bosnia in the first six months of 1993?

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with all due

22 respect for my learned colleague, I think that this is at least the 20th

23 time that the same question has been put to the witness. The witness has

24 answered each of these questions and said what he knew and what he didn't

25 know. In order to say something in response to all these questions, he

Page 13356

1 provided a number. But it's quite clear from all his answers that he

2 cannot provide an exact number. I don't understand why the Prosecution

3 keeps putting the same questions to this witness given that the answers

4 the witness provides are always the same.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, are you going to

6 pursue this matter? The witness has said that he believed there were

7 between 50 and a hundred of them, but nothing very precise has been

8 stated. In fact, you have put this question to the witness at least ten

9 times, but on each occasion, the witness answered the question in

10 imprecise terms.

11 General, in order to clarify this issue, the answer everyone would

12 like to have is, as far as you know, how many mujahedin were there at the

13 beginning of 1993, in the first six months of 1993? If I say "mujahedin,"

14 let's say a group of foreigners, since that's what you said. As far as

15 you can remember, what sort of approximate number could you give us? And

16 then we'll move on to something else.

17 In the first half of 1993, as far as you know, how many foreigners

18 were there?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am telling you with

20 full responsibility that I don't know how many groups there were or how

21 many people were in the groups. All I can say is that in mid-June in

22 1993, I saw a group of between 10 and 15 men. This was in front of the

23 church in Guca Gora. And I don't really know how many of them there were

24 after that event. It's difficult for me to make an assessment. If I made

25 a mistake, I apologise. I was talking about the period when the El

Page 13357












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Page 13358

1 Mujahid detachment was formed. And I again said that there were between

2 50 and a hundred of them. But similarly, I said that no one ever knew the

3 exact number of foreigners present in the zone of responsibility of the

4 3rd Corps. At least, I wasn't aware of any such information. I had no

5 such information.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. This notion, sir, of opening a third front against these

9 foreigners, was this a topic that was discussed among the 3rd Corps

10 leadership in early 1993 or middle of 1993?

11 A. I know that we didn't discuss this at the beginning of 1993. We

12 discussed this matter when we realised that this was a real problem. This

13 was in mid-1993. And at the time, we had information according to which

14 they had contact with our local population. I have already said that they

15 would distribute food, money, they would marry young girls. We didn't

16 know how many young girls they'd married, we didn't know how much money

17 they had distributed or how much food they had distributed. But you must

18 understand that at the time the population had nothing to eat. I also

19 said that the 3rd Corps wasn't in a position to provide the people with

20 food and money. They didn't have enough food for their own soldiers, let

21 alone for the people.

22 So we knew that if we tried to confront such a group of armed men

23 at the time, we didn't know how many of the local inhabitants would join

24 them. We didn't want a war between members of the 3rd Corps and the

25 people who supported those foreigners. We believed that we had to find a

Page 13359

1 different solution to that problem. It wasn't possible to open a third

2 front.

3 Q. Sir, let me turn now to the monastery at Guca Gora. Do you

4 remember in June 1993 a BritBat officer by the name of Major Vaughan

5 Kent-Payne?

6 A. I met a lot of English officers. I may have met him. I may have

7 seen him. Perhaps I did meet him. Perhaps I did see him. I don't know

8 who this officer is. If I saw him, perhaps I'd be able to remember

9 whether I had seen him or not. I know that there were a lot of officers

10 that I had contact with. We either spoke to each other personally or they

11 were members of a mission or a member of some international commission. I

12 really met a lot of English officers. And perhaps I also met this officer

13 among that large group of English officers.

14 Q. Sir, Major Kent-Payne testified before this Tribunal that he had a

15 discussion with you about the damage done to the monastery in Guca Gora.

16 And according to Major Kent-Payne - and this is page 4818 of the

17 transcripts - you told Major Kent-Payne that it was not regular troops

18 that caused the damage, but it was the foreigners, the mujahedin,

19 according to the transcript.

20 Do you remember -- this was in the 3rd Corps headquarters building

21 that he relates this discussion. Does that refresh your recollection in

22 any way of the discussion that you may have had with Major Kent-Payne?

23 A. Could you provide me with a date? Tell me when I spoke to

24 Mr. Kent-Payne.

25 Q. I believe it was in mid-June. Let me see if I can find that.

Page 13360

1 His testimony was at the end of June 1993, about the 30th of June.

2 And that's page 4817.

3 A. That is possible. At the time, I certainly told Major Kent-Payne

4 that the ABiH was not inflicting damage on religious buildings. I said

5 that, as far as I knew, the ABiH was taking measures to protect religious

6 buildings. This was what we ordered ABiH troops to do. I can't remember

7 the substance of my discussion with Mr. Kent-Payne, but I said that ABiH

8 units were not involved in this destruction. They would not destroy

9 religious buildings because when we found out that ABiH members engaged in

10 such activities, we would take the necessary measures.

11 Q. Sir, let me read to you from the transcript of what Major

12 Kent-Payne testified that you said to him when he was at the 3rd Corps

13 headquarters at the end of June, perhaps the 30th of June, 1993.

14 This is a quote from his testimony. Major Kent-Payne said: "And

15 I said to him" - meaning you - "words to the effect of `but they're under

16 your control, and therefore you are responsible for doing this'. And he

17 said an analogy on the lines of `but you have to understand that, that the

18 foreigners are like the genie in Aladdin, then. You can rub the lamp and

19 get the genie out to help you. But unlike the genie who returns to the

20 lamp then, the foreigners are very difficult to get back into their box,

21 and they're difficult to control'. And he said that `it was something

22 that they needed to -- to work on, to ensure that these people did not

23 behave in a manner which -- which was -- which was unbecoming and which

24 was against the Geneva Convention'."

25 Now, sir -- for the benefit of the record, this is page 4818,

Page 13361

1 lines 13 through 23.

2 General, let me ask you if you recall a conversation with Major

3 Kent-Payne that went along the lines of what Major Kent-Payne has

4 testified about.

5 A. I don't exclude the possibility of having said something to that

6 effect when speaking to Mr. -- or rather, Major Kent-Payne. I don't

7 remember the details of that conversation. It took place a long time ago.

8 I'm not familiar with the symbolism of Aladdin's lamp. I'm not sure that

9 that is what I said, or maybe he said that that's the impression I gave

10 when I spoke to him. I can't remember what I said exactly, if I did

11 mention Aladdin and his lamp. I can't remember what the symbolism would

12 have been. Perhaps I wanted to say that the issue of the foreigners was a

13 complex issue, if they were there, and we had information according to

14 which they were present in June 1993. We wanted to control and prevent

15 them from violating international rules and international humanitarian

16 law. That's probably what I discussed with him. I can't remember the

17 exact words that were used when I spoke to him.

18 Q. Sir, let me now take you to the day that you went to Guca Gora and

19 saw the mujahedin for the first time. And you testified on Thursday, page

20 43, that it was a few days after the 9th of June 1993. This is the day

21 you saw the mujahedin -- or the foreigners at the monastery. Is that an

22 accurate reflection of your testimony? It was a few days after the 9th of

23 June 1993?

24 A. I said that I had seen them during that period of time, but I

25 don't remember saying that I saw them in the monastery. I remember saying

Page 13362

1 that I saw them in front of the monastery. If I said that I had seen them

2 in the monastery a few days ago, then that was a slip of the tongue. That

3 was a mistake. I saw them in front of the monastery. This is an

4 important difference. I don't understand English, so I don't know whether

5 I said "in the monastery" or "in front of the monastery." Your Honours,

6 if I said "in the monastery," that was an error. I did not

7 see them in the monastery, I saw them in front of the monastery. Perhaps

8 I made a mistake, but this is an important distinction.

9 Q. Let me correct myself. The testimony in English says, on page 44,

10 line 4, "At the entrance from the eastern side in the yard of the church."

11 Now, let me ask you this, sir: Is that the courtyard of the monastery,

12 the enclosed courtyard of the monastery, or is that at the front door in

13 front of the monastery?

14 A. Your Honours, let me be quite clear and quite precise: The first

15 time I mentioned this, I was very precise. I mentioned the main entrance

16 to the monastery, which is to the south. You enter the entrance from the

17 road, there's some steps, and that's the entrance to the church. There's

18 an entrance to the east. I can make you a sketch. I remember this very

19 well because that is the first time I met that group of foreigners, and

20 everyone had been speaking about those foreigners for about six months.

21 They had been mentioning foreigners, mujahedin, et cetera. I hadn't seen

22 them. That's why I mentioned this event. I said that the gate from the

23 eastern side, that's where I saw them. I'd entered the courtyard -- I'd

24 entered the courtyard of the church, but I didn't enter the church. They

25 were in the courtyard from the eastern side. That's what I think I said,

Page 13363












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 13364

1 because I still have this image in my mind.

2 We all have immense problems, and I can't forget the first image I

3 had when I saw that group of foreigners.

4 Q. General, can you be a little more specific in terms of the date

5 that you were actually in the courtyard at the Guca Gora monastery? You

6 told us on the 9th of December, page 43, that it was "a few days after 9

7 June, 1993." Can you be any more specific?

8 A. That's correct. I said that on the 9th of June 1993, I was there

9 when the civilians were evacuated. I can't remember whether that was two

10 or three days after that date, but in any event, it was after that date.

11 It was after the 9th of June 1993. In my notes, for example, it might say

12 that I was there on the 9th, but I can't remember the exact date. I've

13 already said that I didn't know the date. But it was two or three days

14 after that date, that's for sure.

15 Q. Do you recall -- so I take it, then, sir, it would be somewhere

16 around the 11th or 12th of June 1993 when you saw these foreigners?

17 A. One could say so, yes.

18 Q. Do you recall approximately what time you arrived at the courtyard

19 of the Guca Gora monastery on the 11th or 12th of June 1993?

20 A. It was in the early afternoon. I remember that well.

21 Q. As you were -- you told us that you were with your driver on that

22 occasion. Is that correct? Your driver drove you there?

23 A. Yes, the driver was by the vehicle. And only the driver witnessed

24 that scene, yes.

25 Q. And sir, do you remember if there were any checkpoints in the

Page 13365

1 immediate vicinity of the monastery on the 11th or 12th of June 1993?

2 A. I can't remember whether there were any checkpoints. I've said

3 that after the 8th of June 1993, the road to Travnik was open. I arrived

4 from the direction of Zenica on that day. I remember that well. But I

5 can't remember there being any checkpoints on the road. I trusted my

6 driver. I was sure he'd be a good driver. The drivers would change, but

7 I had confidence in my driver. But as to whether there were any

8 checkpoints, I really can't remember. We were never stopped, as far as I

9 can remember.

10 Q. Do you recall, sir, if there were any checkpoints run by units of

11 the 3rd Corps in the immediate vicinity of the Guca Gora monastery on the

12 11th or 12th of June 1993?

13 A. When I was passing through, I don't remember having seen any ABiH

14 checkpoints.

15 Q. Did you see or do you remember seeing in the immediate vicinity of

16 the Guca Gora monastery on the 11th or 12th of June 1993 a heavy

17 machine-gun in a sandbagged emplacement?

18 A. From where I entered the Guca Gora monastery, I couldn't see a

19 machine-gun nest, not from the direction that I entered the courtyard.

20 Q. Sir, on the 11th or 12th of June 1993 when you were at the Guca

21 Gora monastery or the courtyard thereof, did you see any soldiers of any

22 subordinate unit of the 3rd Corps, including any type of military police

23 in the immediate vicinity of that monastery?

24 A. In the courtyard I entered -- well, I didn't enter the entire

25 courtyard. It was at the beginning of the courtyard that I met this group

Page 13366

1 of foreigners. And there were no ABiH members with them. As to whether

2 there were any such troops on the other side in the immediate vicinity, I

3 don't know. But there were no ABiH members in the area that I entered,

4 apart from my driver who was very near me, but he wasn't actually standing

5 right next to me.

6 Q. As your driver approached the monastery and parked the vehicle,

7 did you see any soldiers of any unit of the 3rd Corps in the immediate

8 vicinity of the monastery on the 11th or 12th of June 1993 when you were

9 there?

10 A. Just before you enter the courtyard from the eastern side, there

11 is a large bend. And I entered the courtyard -- I can't remember now

12 whether the driver was with me, but he was not in the courtyard with the

13 car. The car was left on the other side of the wall of the convent. And

14 I didn't see any troops in the immediate vicinity.

15 Q. Sir, did you see any vehicles parked in the immediate vicinity of

16 the monastery in Guca Gora on the 11th or 12th of June 1993? Were there

17 other vehicles parked there when your vehicle approached and your driver

18 parked the vehicle?

19 A. At the entry -- at the entrance that I used, there were no

20 vehicles.

21 Q. Now, General, how long did you remain in the courtyard at the Guca

22 Gora monastery on the 11th or 12th of June 1993?

23 A. If I can remember well, for some four or five hours I was trying

24 to persuade these foreigners to leave the church alone. Not to destroy

25 it.

Page 13367

1 Q. Now, you told us last week that there was a person that you

2 encountered there who spoke Bosnian, and you weren't sure if he was from

3 Bosnia or perhaps somewhere in the former Yugoslavia, but he spoke your

4 language. Is that a fair summary of your testimony?

5 A. Yes. I have testified that that person had a beard. He was fair

6 of face. He spoke like a man who lacked the professional terminology, but

7 based on what he was saying I judged that he was a Bosnian, not a

8 foreigner. And since he interpreted whatever the foreigners and I said, I

9 came to the conclusion it was their interpreter who was equally able to

10 communicate with them and with me.

11 Q. Now, sir, other than when you saw this person would spoke Bosnian

12 on the 11th or 12th of June 1993 in the Guca Gora courtyard, or the

13 monastery courtyard, did you ever see that person before that day or did

14 you ever see that person after that day, this person who interpreted for

15 you?

16 A. No. I never saw that person either before or after. That was the

17 only time that I saw him at the entrance -- or rather, already in the

18 courtyard of the church.

19 Q. And you used this person as an interpreter for the entire four to

20 five hours that you were present on the 11th or 12th of June 1993 in the

21 Guca Gora monastery courtyard?

22 A. Yes. He was the only one who interpreted. There was no one else

23 who interpreted. Whether there was anyone else present there who

24 understood Bosnian, I didn't ask.

25 Q. Did you get that person, the interpreter's, name?

Page 13368

1 A. No. No one from that group told me his name.

2 Q. Okay. Now, I believe you've answered this at least in part, but

3 let me ask you directly: Other than this man who interpreted for you,

4 were there other persons in this group of 10 to 15 people who appeared to

5 you to be Bosnians rather than foreigners?

6 A. Well, I inferred that, apart from the interpreter, there were no

7 other Bosnians in that group, that all the others were foreigners.

8 Q. While you were there, sir, during this four-to-five-hour period on

9 the 11th or 12th of June 1993, did you get to know the names of any one of

10 this group of 10 to 15 persons?

11 A. No, I didn't learn a single name.

12 Q. On the 11th or 12th of June 1993, sir, did you or your driver have

13 a Motorola or any other type of radio?

14 A. I did not carry any communication device with me. Maybe the

15 driver did. I don't know what there was in, around the vehicle. It was

16 not my job to know. But maybe the vehicle was equipped for keeping in

17 touch with the superior command. But the vehicle we had did not have any

18 in-built radio so that I should be able to communicate with anyone.

19 Q. Now, certainly, sir, by this period in June 1993 when you first

20 saw these foreigners, you considered them to be a significant problem for

21 the 3rd Corps, and you've told us that it was -- you considered it to be a

22 law enforcement or a civilian law enforcement problem. Is that correct?

23 A. I don't know to what extent they were a problem to civilian

24 authorities. The civilian authorities did not share their thoughts with

25 me as to how much of a problem they were to them. I knew that they were a

Page 13369

1 problem to the 3rd Corps, and it was practically the first time that I saw

2 that group of 10 to 15 foreigners. I have already spoken about this. I

3 don't know to what extent they were a problem to civilians.

4 Q. So you're saying, sir, that you don't know if the civilian police

5 would have been the proper authority to deal with these foreigners?

6 A. I said that the security service of the 3rd Corps applied

7 operative methods to find out who those foreigners were. They did that

8 even earlier. Whether the security service had been in touch with

9 civilian authorities, I don't know. Nobody gave me that information. As

10 for operative methods, I'm not an expert. I don't know that the security

11 service of the 3rd Corps talked to the civilian police, but I cannot rule

12 out that they did.

13 Q. Sir, did you report the presence of these people to anyone other

14 than your commander in the 3rd Corps?

15 A. No, I only informed the commander of the 3rd Corps.

16 Q. So you don't recall any efforts taken to contact the civilian

17 security services or the civilian police to get them to go to the

18 monastery in Guca Gora to arrest these people or to take any steps against

19 these people?

20 A. No, I was not aware of any such thing.

21 Q. Did you personally make any such efforts to contact the civilian

22 law enforcement or civilian security services?

23 A. Civilian authorities and the civilian police are not the same

24 thing as the security organs of the 3rd Corps. The security organ of the

25 3rd Corps is a completely different organisation. I also said the


Page 13370

1 civilian police cooperated -- or rather, the police of the 3rd Corps

2 cooperated with the civilian police, but I have no information that they

3 talked on the day of the events in Guca Gora. I spoke to the commander

4 about this, and I know that the 3rd Corps commander had taken steps and

5 that military police had been sent there to secure, to guard the convent.

6 Q. My question, sir, is a relatively straightforward one: Did you

7 personally contact the civilian police or civilian security services to

8 inform them that there were 10 to 15 foreigners in the courtyard of the

9 Guca Gora monastery shortly after you visited that location on the 11th or

10 12th of June 1993?

11 A. No. I did not get in touch with the civilian police or any other

12 civilian authorities.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with your indulgence, I have one or

14 two more questions relating to this day, and if we get short answers we

15 should finish here within a minute for today.

16 Q. Sir, on the 11th or 12th of June 1993, did you go inside the

17 monastery at Guca Gora?

18 A. No. On that day, I did not go in.

19 Q. Can you tell us with respect to the courtyard and the exterior of

20 the monastery building, did you see any visible damage to the monastery?

21 To the exterior of the building or to anything in the courtyard, including

22 any statues or any other items in the courtyard of the monastery or the

23 walls of the courtyard of the monastery, did you see any kind of damage on

24 the 11th or 12th of June 1993 while you were there?

25 A. I have already said that I went into the courtyard. I didn't go

Page 13371

1 around the courtyard. From the place where I was standing, I was not able

2 to see any damage on or around the church.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, sir.

4 Mr. President, I note the time. We will move on to a different

5 topic tomorrow morning.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's 7.00 p.m. It's

7 time to terminate this hearing.

8 General, you will come for the hearing tomorrow, tomorrow morning

9 at 9.00. Thank you.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of

13 December, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.