Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18420

 1                           Thursday, 14 April 2005

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

 6     the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Case

 8     Number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir

 9     Kubura.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.

12             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

13     Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom.  For the

14     Prosecution, Tecla Henry-Benjamin and Daryl Mundis, assisted by Andres

15     Vatter.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the appearances

17     for Defence counsel in the usual order.

18             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

19     Good morning, Your Honours.  On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina

20     Residovic, lead counsel, and Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence team.

22             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  On

23     behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

24     Mulalic, our legal assistant.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to greet everyone

Page 18421

 1     present, members of the Prosecution, Defence counsel, the accused, and

 2     everyone else in the courtroom.  I believe that there is an issue

 3     concerning tendering a document into evidence.  I will give the floor to

 4     General Hadzihasanovic's Defence counsel in that case.

 5             Mr. Bourgon.

 6             MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.  Good

 7     morning, Madam Judge.  Good morning, Your Honour.  Unfortunately I don't

 8     have the document on me.  The issue concerned the documents that we

 9     wanted to tender.  I don't have them with me.  I forgot them in my office

10     this morning.  I apologise, Mr. President.  We'll deal with this issue at

11     the next hearing.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Have you spoken to

13     the Prosecution to obtain their agreement in --

14             MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] There are no problems, Mr.

15     President.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17             In that case we'll call the witness into the courtroom.

18             Mr. Usher, could you bring the witness into the courtroom,

19     please.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  I would

22     first like to make sure that you are receiving the interpretation of what

23     I am saying into your own language.  If so, please tell us that you can

24     understand us.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness's answer wasn't audible.

Page 18422

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you've been called here as

 2     a witness for Mr. Kubura's Defence.  Before you take the solemn

 3     declaration, could you tell me your date of birth, your place of birth,

 4     your first and last name.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Suad Jusovic.  I was

 6     born on the 3rd of November, 1965, in Prijedor.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What are you by profession?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am currently waiting for my

 9     pension that should regulate my status in the army.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993 did you have a

11     profession of any kind or military position, if you are a member of the

12     military?  What position did you hold in the military and which unit were

13     you in?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the commander of a platoon

15     and of a company in the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified

17     before an international or national court about the events that took

18     place in your country in 1992 and 1993, or is this the first time?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have never testified before, but

20     I have given a statement about war crimes in Prijedor.  I gave the

21     statement to the authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read out the

23     solemn declaration that the usher will show to you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 18423

 1                           WITNESS:  SUAD JUSOVIC

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down.

 4     Before I give the floor to the Defence, who will commence their

 5     examination-in-chief, I would like to provide you with some information.

 6             You will first have to answer questions that will be put to you

 7     by Mr. Kubura's Defence.  We have been informed that they will need about

 8     an hour and a half for their examination-in-chief.  It might take a

 9     little longer or a little shorter, but that's a rough estimate.  After

10     this stage has been completed, the Prosecution, who are to your right,

11     and they will conduct what we call their cross-examination.  It's a

12     well-known Anglo-Saxon procedure and it is within this framework that you

13     will have to answer questions that will last as long as the

14     examination-in-chief.

15             Then, Brigadier Kubura's [as interpreted] Defence or the other

16     Defence team may ask you additional questions and the three Judges

17     sitting before you may also ask you questions at any time.  But as a

18     rule, we prefer to wait for both parties to complete their examination

19     and cross-examination and then we will put questions to you to clarify

20     some of your answers.  We might also put questions to you because we

21     believe there are certain gaps that need to be filled, certain gaps in

22     your testimony.

23             I would also like to draw your attention to other important

24     points.  As you have given the solemn declaration, you should not give

25     false testimony.  There is another very complicated provision I should

Page 18424

 1     inform you of.  You may also refuse to answer a question if you believe

 2     the answer could be used against you at a subsequent date.  But in such a

 3     case - and we have never had such cases to date - in such a case the

 4     Chamber may compel you to answer the question, but you are granted

 5     immunity.  This is a provision contained in the Rules, the purpose of

 6     which is to enable witnesses to contribute to establishing the truth.  If

 7     you find that a question is too complicated, don't hesitate to ask the

 8     party putting the question to you to rephrase it.

 9             The procedure followed here is basically an oral procedure and

10     there is a screen where everything that is said is transcribed.  You

11     might also be shown documents, military documents, either to identify

12     them or to comment on them, to comment on military documents as a member

13     of the military.

14             Roughly speaking, this is how we will be proceeding today.  If

15     there are any problems, do inform us of the fact.  And we will be having

16     two breaks in the course of the hearing.  This should allow you to --

17     there seems to be a problem with the earphones.  Everything is fine?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything is fine now.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As I was saying, we will be

20     having two 20- to 25-minute breaks and we will be finishing the hearing

21     at 1.45.  This means that it won't be necessary for you to staying in The

22     Hague to appear for the hearing on Monday, providing that the parties

23     adhere to the schedule.

24             Without wasting anymore time, I will now give the floor to

25     Defence counsel.

Page 18425

 1             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           Examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Jusovic, in response to a question put to

 4     you by the Presiding Judge you said that in 1992 and 1993 you were in the

 5     7th Muslim Brigade?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Where were you when the war broke out?

 8        A.   I was in Oftina Prijedor, western Bosnian Krajina.

 9        Q.   On the 1st of April 1992 -- In April 1992?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   What happened then with you then?

12        A.   I had then come from Switzerland for a holiday.  I could not

13     return.  The Serbian and Montenegrin aggressor had penetrated into Oftina

14     Prijedor and Oftina Kozarac.

15        Q.   Were you arrested during those events?

16        A.   Yes, on the 28th of May, 1992.

17        Q.   What happened after that?

18        A.   I was then taken to the Omarska camp from the 28th of May up

19     until the 17th of August.  I think I was in Omarska.  And from the 17th

20     to the 21st of August I was in Trnopolje camp.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   When did you come to Travnik and how?

24        A.   On the 21st of August, 1992, I arrived there in a convoy.  And

25     between 22 -- 220 and 250 people were taken from the convoy at Koricanska

Page 18426

 1     Stijena and were killed there.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  When you joined the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim

 3     Brigade, did you have an establishment post?

 4        A.   When I entered the 7th Muslim Brigade I didn't have an

 5     establishment post; I was an ordinary soldier.

 6        Q.   After that, in 1992 and 1993 -- let me just interrupt you.  Could

 7     we just pause between my questions and your answers for the sake of the

 8     interpretation.

 9        A.   Around the beginning of December I became the commander of a

10     platoon.  And in mid-December 1992 I became the commander of the 2nd

11     Company.

12        Q.   Of which company?

13        A.   Of the 2nd Company of the 1st Mountain Battalion of the 7th

14     Muslim Brigade.

15        Q.   The 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade.  Did it have its

16     zone of responsibility in the area of Travnik?

17        A.   Yes.  On Bijelo Bucje.  To the right there was Kazici and to the

18     left there was elevation 1268.

19             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would like to

20     use a number of documents with this witness, including a map.  With your

21     leave, could these documents be shown to the witness as well as the map.

22             The map is on the ELMO -- could you place the map on the ELMO,

23     please.

24        Q.   First, Mr. Jusovic, I would like to ask you the following.  The

25     1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade was part of the Bosnian Krajina

Page 18427

 1     OG.  Is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Please have a look at the map.  A while ago you said that the

 4     zone of responsibility of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade was

 5     the Kazici elevation, or rather Bijelo Bucje.  Could you point to these

 6     locations.

 7        A.   We can see the village of Bijelo Bucje here.  To the right there

 8     is the village of Kazici.  Here you have a slope and you arrive to

 9     elevation 268 here; there was the zone of responsibility of the 1st

10     Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

11        Q.   Could you take a felt tip and encircle the area you have referred

12     to.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Could you mark it with the letter A or number 1.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Mr. Jusovic, how many soldiers were there in your battalion at

17     that time?  How many soldiers did your company have?

18        A.   Our battalion had up to 50 and 65 per cent of its strength right

19     up until the end of its time within the 7th Muslim Brigade.  In my

20     company there was 60 to 70 soldiers on a permanent basis.

21        Q.   Could you tell us how duties were performed in the zone of

22     responsibility.  How did the men rotate and how frequently?

23        A.   The 1st Battalion had four companies, and in those companies they

24     had logistics support.  And every 15 days, two companies were on the

25     lines and two companies or on leave.  And then the companies that were on

Page 18428

 1     leave would leave their equipment and weapons in the barracks and go

 2     home.  Transport was organised in buses, and some of them drove home or

 3     walked home.

 4        Q.   Where were your -- where were the battalion and your companies in

 5     the summer?

 6        A.   The 1st Battalion was in the zone of responsibility of the

 7     battalion and in the Travnik barracks.

 8        Q.   Where was your company at that time?

 9        A.   My company was then in the Bijelo Bucje zone of responsibility.

10        Q.   Until when was your company in Bijelo Bucje?

11        A.   It was there until the 23rd of May, 1993, from the 12th of

12     February until April [as interpreted] because we weren't able to rotate

13     men because of certain problems we had within the unit.  Some went on

14     leave to Zenica, Nemila, Vitez, Bugojno and were not able to return from

15     there.  There were problems with the HVO.

16             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there's an error

17     in the transcript.  Page 9, line 9 it says from February until April and

18     the witness said from February until the 23rd of May, 1993.

19        Q.   Mr. Jusovic, have you heard of the village of Miletici?

20        A.   I've heard of the village of Miletici as three months -- I heard

21     about it three months after the crime in Miletici.  It was only when I

22     arrived there later.  I heard about it three months later.

23        Q.   On the 24th of April, 1993, in the afternoon did you arrive in

24     the village of Miletici and do you know whether anyone from the battalion

25     of the 7th Muslim Brigade was in Miletici at that time on that day?

Page 18429

 1        A.   No, I couldn't be in Miletici because I had a zone of

 2     responsibility where I was holding the defence line.  And as far as I

 3     know, I was familiar with the events.  No one from the 1st Battalion of

 4     the 7th Muslim Brigade participated in those activities.

 5        Q.   Do you know where the 4th Company was at the time, at that time?

 6        A.   It was in the village of Poculica, near Sivrino Selo, Sivrino

 7     village, because they were all from that area and they had been

 8     subordinated to the 325th Mountain Brigade.

 9        Q.   Did the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade have an organised

10     unit in the Bila Valley?

11        A.   It didn't have an organised unit in the Bila Valley because we

12     had ten members from there -- we had ten members from there who were part

13     of the 1st Battalion.

14        Q.   Where were your battalion located?

15        A.   It was located in the Travnik barracks.  It was billeted in the

16     Travnik barracks.

17        Q.   And the battalion command?

18        A.   It was deployed above the old department store of Travnik.

19        Q.   You said on the 23rd of May, 1993, you returned from a shift in

20     your zone of responsibility in Bijelo Bucje.  Where did you go then?

21        A.   We then received an order from the command of Bosnian Krajina OG,

22     from Commander Alagic.  We were ordered to go on leave and the 3rd

23     Battalion of the 17th Vitez and Krajina Brigade replaced us afterwards.

24     We arrived in the barracks.  We left our equipment and weapons there and

25     the soldiers left on leave and went to Travnik.  They went to their

Page 18430

 1     homes.

 2        Q.   Were there any men from the 7th Muslim Brigade and the 1st

 3     Battalion who had remained in Bijelo Bucje?

 4        A.   Yes, a platoon, a logistics platoon remained there.

 5        Q.   After the order that you received from General Alagic for your

 6     unit to go on leave, what happened?

 7        A.   About the 27th or 28th of May we received an order from the

 8     commander of the OG, from Commander Alagic, to assemble and to be in the

 9     reserve force of the Bosnian Krajina OG.

10        Q.   Where were you deployed?

11        A.   In the barracks.  At the time there were members from the 1st

12     Motorised Company who lived in Travnik, but they didn't have their own

13     company because their company was on leave.  So some of those men were

14     resubordinated to my company.  That was about -- there were about 25 men.

15        Q.   How many men did you have under your command then?

16        A.   Around 85.

17        Q.   When the conflict broke out in Travnik, where were you, Mr.

18     Jusovic?

19        A.   We were in the barracks and as ordered by the commander of the

20     Bosnian Krajina OG we were to go to Hajdareve Njive, which is above

21     Travnik.

22        Q.   When were you first engaged in combat activity and when did you

23     go to Hajdareve Njive?

24        A.   I think it was on the 5th of June, 1993.

25        Q.   Where exactly is Hajdareve Njive?

Page 18431

 1        A.   Hajdareve Njive -- I can't see it very well on the screen, so I'm

 2     going to look at the map.

 3        Q.   We'll come to that but I would just like to ask a question.  Can

 4     you repeat -- can you answer my question, please.  In this bundle of

 5     documents could you look for the document number 5.

 6             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

 7     this is DK number 19 -- I do apologise.

 8        Q.   Could you take a look --

 9             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] It is not 19 -- rather, it is

10     not 5 but it is 4.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

12             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] It is an extraordinary combat

13     report of the operations group Bosanska Krajina.

14        Q.   Mr. Jusovic, could you look at item 2, the phrase that starts

15     with 1/7.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you read it out.

18        A.   "The 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade is engaged

19     in direction of Hajdareve Njive linking it to itself and covering it with

20     its mortars."

21        Q.   What happened afterwards?

22        A.   According to the task assigned by the commander, we went to

23     Hajdareve Njive.  We took one part of the combat positions, and

24     afterwards we could no longer hold those positions and we withdrew at

25     some point in the morning between 9.00 and 10.00 a.m. and returned to

Page 18432

 1     barracks.

 2        Q.   Where did you go back to?

 3        A.   The barracks, because the barracks were not too far away.  So it

 4     was about 800 metres as the crow flies where the barracks were.

 5        Q.   After that, were you assigned any other tasks by the operatives

 6     group -- or rather, let me ask you first:  Who was issuing orders to you

 7     at that time?

 8        A.   At that time we received all orders from the operative group

 9     Bosanska Krajina, and I myself got my orders from the deputy commander

10     Horo Naim.

11        Q.   I asked you before what happened after the 5th of June.  Were you

12     assigned any other task?

13        A.   We were assigned the task to go to the village of Guvna.

14        Q.   Where is this village?

15        A.   It is left of Travnik, a kilometre or 200 metres away.

16        Q.   Were you assigned any tasks on the 8th of June?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   What was this task?

19        A.   It was to take Hajdareve Njive again so as to be able to continue

20     in the direction to Gluha Bukovica and Gostilj.  Either Gostilj or

21     Gostunj.

22        Q.   Can you take a look at document number 5 now.

23             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript

24     it is 5465.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that.

Page 18433

 1             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   The regular operative report of the command of the Operation

 3     Group Bosanska Krajina.

 4             On page 2, can you tell us what AGD means.

 5        A.   This is the signature of the commander of the Operative Group

 6     Bosanska Krajina.

 7        Q.   Who was the commander?

 8        A.   Mehmed.  It was his signature.

 9        Q.   Did you know him personally?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   If you look at the top of the page where it says the command of

12     the Operative Group of Bosanska Krajina, can you see the date?  The 8th

13     of June, 1993, at 1900 hours.  And could you read out to us the last

14     phrase of this regular operations report, starting with 1/7.

15        A.   "The 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade is active in the

16     area of Hajdareve Njive in the direction of Bukovica."

17        Q.   Is this regular operations report by General Alagic, does it

18     reflect what you were referring to and does it refer to the combat

19     activities of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade?

20        A.   Can you repeat the question, please.

21        Q.   What you saw in this document, the text that you've just read

22     out, does it reflect what you testified about with regard to the combat

23     activities of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade on the 8th of

24     June, 1993?  Is this correct?

25        A.   Yes, it's correct.

Page 18434

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to ask you to look at the map to your

 2     right and show the Trial Chamber and all of us where exactly Hajdareve

 3     Njive is located.

 4             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the sake of the

 5     transcript it is 5465, Defence Exhibit P465.  I think it has been entered

 6     into this transcript in an incorrect way.

 7             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, while the witness

 8     is looking for what my learned friend asked him to be, I believe there is

 9     another mistake on page 10.4.  He said that a part was resubordinated of

10     the 325th Brigade and the term "325th Brigade" did not enter the

11     transcript.  It is on page 10, line 4.

12             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that there is some

13     confusion.  I don't think that the witness actually mentioned that.  I

14     think he said that they were resubordinated to the Operations Group

15     Bosanska Krajina, as far as I understood.

16             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the

17     colleagues to take a look.

18             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, I do apologise.  When

19     we were talking about the -- a company from Poculica.  That was it.

20             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I do apologise.  That's

21     right.  I meant the Battalion.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hajdareve Njive is right here.

23             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Could you mark it in the same way you did with Bijelo Bucje.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 18435

 1        Q.   How far is Hajdareve Njive from Travnik?

 2        A.   Somewhere between 6 and 800 metres as the crow flies.

 3        Q.   When you marked Bijelo Bucje you marked it by an A and you have

 4     to mark this by a B.

 5             After the completion of that combat activities that you've

 6     referred to, could you tell us what went on afterwards on that day and

 7     the following battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade, that is to say your

 8     company in particular?

 9        A.   My company stayed there throughout the month of August, and in

10     the beginning of September and by the end of September -- or rather, the

11     end -- it is not September, it is the 9th of June -- with the other units

12     we went out of Veljka Bukovica.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters apologise.  We took the 9th to

14     mean September but it was the 9th of June, in fact.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were talking about the units of

16     4th Battalion of the 17th Krajina Brigade and the TVO [as interpreted]

17     staff Travnik and a part of the 312th Brigade and a part of the police

18     force from Travnik.

19             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Where is the place called Sibicara?

21        A.   It's at the crossroads over here, in the direction of Travnik and

22     branching off in the other direction.

23        Q.   Did the 1st Battalion do anything in that area?

24        A.   Yes.  They were in that area between the 5th and the 6th of June

25     and the 8th of June.

Page 18436

 1        Q.   How far is Sibicara from Travnik?

 2        A.   A kilometre.

 3        Q.   You've marked this plant, Sibicara.  Could you mark it by a C.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Mr. Jusovic, you said that the 4th Company was at Poculica and

 6     that you with about 80 soldiers were active in this area of Hajdareve

 7     Njive and the area that you've marked here.  Where were the other

 8     soldiers of the 1st Battalion?

 9        A.   The 4th Company, I believe, went on the 17th of April or the 17th

10     of May.  They went in the direction of the village of Vitez following

11     approval from the deputy commander Horo Naim.

12             As I said, the 1st Company was on leave.  They had about 20

13     soldiers in the village of Nemila.  It is in the municipality of Zenica.

14     And they were for the most part members from Jajce who had been displaced

15     and they were refugees and they were in that company.  And the part of

16     the company was in Travnik.  Between 25 and 30 soldiers were in Travnik

17     and ten soldiers were in a village called Kljaci -- I think it is called

18     Kljaci.  And the 3rd Company was in a place called Rostovo and the 1st

19     Company, as I said, was within Travnik itself.

20        Q.   Could we just clarify this.  After what events did Mr. Alagic's

21     [as interpreted] company go to Poculica?

22        A.   When those problems happened in Ahmici he left with his company.

23        Q.   Here it says the 17th of April or the 17th of May.  Can you

24     specify?

25        A.   I think it was the 17th of May.  I think that was when he went.

Page 18437

 1        Q.   When did the events at Ahmici take place?

 2        A.   I have no recollection of that.

 3        Q.   The events at Ahmici -- no, I withdraw that question.

 4             Mr. Jusovic, have you ever heard of a village called Maline?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did your company or another company from the 1st Battalion ever

 7     engage in combat activity in the village Maline?

 8        A.   It didn't because there were no members from the village of

 9     Maline and the other units from the 1st Battalion did not engage in that

10     area of the mountain brigade.

11        Q.   On the 8th of June, 1993, were you active in that area?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Could you sign the map that you have marked and

14     indicate the date on which you've done it in a corner.

15        A.   [Marks]

16             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] On page 17, Mr. President, on

17     line number 6 it should be Adilovic instead of Alagic.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you asking for map to be

19     tendered?

20             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we suggest this map to be

21     accepted as a Defence exhibit for Mr. Kubura.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Hadzihasanovic's

23     Defence team, do you have any comments?

24             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution?

Page 18438

 1             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:  No, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, do your duty.

 3             THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  So it

 4     is Defence document for General Kubura, DK37.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In English, please.

 6             THE REGISTRAR: [In English] The exhibit is admitted into evidence

 7     under the reference DK37.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, you may proceed.

 9             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Jusovic, did you know Ramo Durmis?

11        A.   I did know Ramo Durmis from the time when I joined the unit until

12     the 28th or 25th of January, 1993 when we were in the same unit in the

13     same battalion.

14        Q.   Since when had he been in the 7th Muslim Brigade?

15        A.   I think until either the 5th or the 10th of January, 1993.

16        Q.   After what events did he leave?

17        A.   After the Visoko operation in the 28th of December, 1992.

18        Q.   Was Ramo Durmis the commander of the 1st Company at the time?

19        A.   According to what I heard afterwards, he had never been appointed

20     commander of that company.  But I don't know how come he held the

21     position of commander.

22        Q.   Could you take a look at the document in this bundle number 1.

23     It's DK29, for the sake of the transcript.

24             If you take a look at that, names of the commanders of the 1st

25     2nd, 3rd Company, does it reflect the situation in February 1993?

Page 18439

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Is according to this order the commander of the company Mr.

 3     Basic, Muhamed?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And are you indicated as a commander of the company?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.

 8             Could you take a look at the document number 3 here.  This is the

 9     Prosecution document P77.  In item 1 --

10        A.   Is it 4?

11        Q.   No, 1.  The following members of the 7th Muslim Brigade have been

12     awarded a monetary incentive.  Is your name on this list?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   On the occasion of what event?

15        A.   On the occasion of the 28th of December when we participated in

16     the Visegrad action.

17        Q.   If you take a look at the date, the 14th of April, what happened

18     on that day?

19        A.   On this day there were preparations for the day celebrating the

20     army of the BH.

21        Q.   In number 5 there is your name and you have been awarded this

22     prize?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   On the next page, under number 4, can you take a look at this, B.

25        A.   Those are awards to companies which participated in those

Page 18440

 1     operations.

 2        Q.   Is it for individuals or units?

 3        A.   It is for units and the reference is to the 1st Company of the

 4     1st Battalion and its commander, Durmis.  And this was the praise given

 5     to the 1st Company of the 1st Battalion.

 6        Q.   Mr. Jusovic, have you ever been to Mehurici?

 7        A.   I have never been to Mehurici but I did travel through Mehurici

 8     later on because that is where our way to our area of responsibility was

 9     to Neokrnje.

10        Q.   Where is Neokrnje?

11        A.   Neokrnje is away from Mehurici but maybe 30 kilometres away.

12        Q.   Have you had any contacts with the camp that was located at

13     Mehurici?

14        A.   I have never had any contacts with them and I didn't even know

15     where they were exactly, but I did hear that there was somebody in

16     Mehurici.

17             MR. IBRISIMOVIC:  Once again on page 20, line 4, Mr. President,

18     the witness said it was the anniversary of the setting up of the armed

19     forces with regard to the date in April 1993.

20        Q.   Did you as company commander ever participate or did any of your

21     soldiers ever participate in any activities in which participated any

22     foreign nationals?

23        A.   It was not possible in my company because it was mostly a company

24     made of displaced persons and refugees.  And we were somewhat different

25     from all the other companies.  We were considered as nicer than the

Page 18441

 1     others and we had never contacts with them.  And they did not offer any

 2     help in any operations.

 3        Q.   And what about the the 1st Battalion?

 4        A.   There were no foreign nationals in the 1st Battalion.

 5        Q.   Do you know Mr. Kubura?

 6        A.   I met Mr. Kubura, I believe, on the 20th or the 25th of January

 7     when I came to the barracks at Zenica.  And that's how I met him.

 8        Q.   Did you know Mr. Koricic?

 9        A.   Yes, I did see Asim.

10        Q.   What was his position with the brigade?

11        A.   In the beginning he was the brigade commander, I believe, until

12     April.  I think he left in April.  He left Bosnia in April and I don't

13     think he came back until October of 1993.

14        Q.   What was Mr. Kubura's position?

15        A.   According to my information I know he was the Chief of Staff and

16     he carried out those duties and he was appointed as commander of the

17     brigade at some point in the month of August 1993.

18        Q.   Between April and -- I mean the time when Mr. Kubura was

19     appointed commander, did you have any communication with the brigade?

20        A.   Until the 16th or the 20th June, 1993, so we could not

21     communicate and we did not have any communications.

22        Q.   Can you repeat that once again.  Between April and June, as you

23     said, did you have communication with the brigade or not?

24        A.   We had communication by phone when phones were working, but we

25     had no other forms of communication.

Page 18442

 1        Q.   When Mr. Koricic came back in October 1993, that's what you said?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Where did he come back to?

 4        A.   We were in the area of responsibility of Preocica and that's

 5     where I met him when he came and was talking to soldiers.  So I went and

 6     said hello.  And on that day or the following day there was a wounding at

 7     the village of Sadovace.

 8        Q.   And what about --what about your members of the 1st Battalion of

 9     the 7th Muslim Brigade?

10        A.   Yes, he came to visit us.

11        Q.   Where exactly was Mr. Koricic wounded?

12        A.   I can't remember exactly.  It was in the area above the village

13     of Sadovace.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you please have a break between the two

15     questions because we can't follow if you speak at the same time.

16             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I think my last question did not enter the transcript so I'm

18     going to repeat it.  Was he wounded in the area of responsibility of your

19     company of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade?

20        A.   No, it was in the area of the 325th Brigade.

21        Q.   And in that area?

22        A.   And in that area there was the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim

23     Brigade and that was in the area in which he was wounded.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, microphone, please, for the

25     counsel.

Page 18443

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were --

 2             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the Defence

 6     with regard to the binder.  You have a document number 6 here.  You did

 7     not show it to the witness.

 8             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I did not, no.  Thank you, Mr.

 9     President.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.  The other Defence

11     team.

12             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the time being

13     we have no questions for this witness.  Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We still have about 35 minutes

15     left and I'm going to give the floor to the Prosecution for the

16     cross-examination.

17             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:  Mr. President, I wonder if I can address the

18     Trial Chamber probably in the absence of the witness at this time,

19     please.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.

21             Usher, can you accompany the witness out of the courtroom and

22     we'll go and get him again in a couple of minutes.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the floor, Madam.

25             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 18444

 1             Mr. President, when the summary was given to me for me to prepare

 2     for this witness, I was told that -- or it said, rather, that the witness

 3     was the commander of the 1st Company of the 1st Battalion of the 7th

 4     Muslim Brigade, and it more or less followed the pattern of the witnesses

 5     that went before him.

 6             By the time I was ready to prepare for this witness I got an

 7     e-mail message saying that there was an error by the Defence and that in

 8     fact the witness was commander of the 1st Company of the 2nd Battalion.

 9     So I had to switch gears and move to the 2nd Battalion.

10             My cross-examination, therefore, is a little bit different than

11     what would have been done for the 1st Battalion.  But since I have been

12     in the courtroom for the first witness and basically had followed the

13     procedures for the second and third witness, I would continue with the

14     cross-examination.  But of course it's going to be limited to a certain

15     extent, which I think it's not quite fair to the Prosecution.  But I just

16     wanted to alert the Trial Chamber to this.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence, please.

18             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  It

19     is correct that in the summary we indicated that this witness was the

20     commander of the 1st Company.  But a few days ago we did inform the

21     Prosecution that this witness was the commander of the 2nd Company and

22     the proof, the exhibit from the Prosecution, indicates that this witness

23     is the commander of the 2nd Company.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Madam Benjamin,

25     apparently the Defence informed you twice that there was a mistake there

Page 18445

 1     and that according to the documents coming from the Prosecution itself

 2     you should yourselves know that he was the commander of the 2nd Company

 3     and not the first one.

 4             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:  That is true -- the latter part is true

 5     because where we were doing the research we were a bit puzzled.  But as

 6     to the first part -- I mean, I'm here to disagree with my colleague.  But

 7     the memo, the message, clearly says that he was commander of the 1st

 8     Company of the 2nd Battalion.  Now, that is completely different for the

 9     1st Company of the 1st Battalion.  And so my questions with respect to

10     him were in a different vein.  In the light that he was going to speak

11     about Maline and about the foreigners, my questions would have been in a

12     general tune because we couldn't find this witness anywhere in respect on

13     a list with respect to being the commander of the 1st Company of the 1st

14     Battalion.

15             I just wanted to alert the Trial Chamber just in case my

16     cross-examination may appear to be just a little bit outside the scope of

17     the examination-in-chief.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but DK29 which you have in

19     front of you which was admitted into evidence.  Perhaps the registrar

20     could tell us the date when it was admitted into evidence.

21             Mr. Registrar, DK29, when was it admitted into evidence?

22             THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this document was

23     admitted into evidence on the 12th of April through Witness Terzic.

24     Thank you, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In DK29 admitted on the 12th of

Page 18446

 1     April, reference is made to the fact that the commander of the 2nd

 2     Company is the witness.

 3             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:  Except for the fact, Mr. President, that

 4     despite my asking for the documents that we were going to be using so

 5     that I myself could sort this out, I never received the documents by fax

 6     until last night at 9.28.  9.28 I had already left the chambers -- I had

 7     already left my office so I got it this morning when I came into court.

 8     That is when I got the bulk of documents that the Defence intended to

 9     use.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  The

12     documents we've used are not new documents; they've already been

13     admitted.  In our summary, apart from the technical error, according to

14     which he was the commander of the 1st Company, in our summary it clearly

15     says that he will be testifying about the fact that the 1st Battalion of

16     the 7th Muslim Brigade was not engaged in Maline, but that it was engaged

17     in Hajdareve Njive and that it was engaged in the village of Miletici.

18     My examination was restricted to this field, and these are only the

19     matters that I addressed.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'll take advantage

21     of the question that you asked to make a following -- the following

22     comment.  This does not engage the other Judges.  We are dealing with

23     members of the military.  I believe that if a case concerns members of

24     the military the Prosecution, which alleges certain violations, should

25     have from the outset presented to the Chamber in the course of the

Page 18447

 1     hearings held diagrams of the different bodies, the 7th Brigade, the 17th

 2     Krajina Brigade, the 325th, et cetera.  If this had been done, you would

 3     immediately have been able to indicate in these diagrams the names and

 4     the positions of the people concerned and the names of the commanders of

 5     companies, because everyone knows a brigade is composed of companies.

 6     Companies -- you have brigades, you have battalions, and in battalions

 7     you have companies.  And it would have been very simple to have for each

 8     unit the precise name of the person in charge instead of discovering that

 9     on the 14th of April, today, that there's certain ambiguity concerning

10     the name and the person in charge of the 2nd Company of the 1st Battalion

11     of the 7th Brigade.  This is something we should have been aware of at

12     the beginning of this case.

13             Having said that, we won't waste any more time.  We'll call the

14     witness back into the courtroom for the cross-examination.

15             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

16     would just like one minute.  The Prosecution alleges that Ramo Durmis was

17     the commander of the 1st Company.  This is something that we have known

18     from the very beginning.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down.

21             I'll now give the floor to the Prosecution.  You may commence

22     with your cross-examination.

23             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           Cross-examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

25        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Jusovic.  My name is Tecla Henry-Benjamin and I

Page 18448

 1     am one of the Prosecutors representing the Prosecution in this trial.

 2     I'm going to ask you a few questions for the purpose of clarification.

 3     If, however, during my interrogation you do not understand what I'm

 4     saying or you wish me to repeat the question, please do say and I'll

 5     oblige.  Thank you.

 6             My first question to you would be:  Were you ever a member of the

 7     Travnik Muslim forces?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   And could you tell me -- or for the benefit of the Trial Chamber

10     could you state exactly when you assumed the role of the first commander

11     of the 1st Battalion -- command of the 1st Company of the 1st Battalion?

12        A.   Around the 24th of December.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.

14             Yes, Defence.

15             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, our objection

16     concerns the question.  The witness never said that he was the commander

17     of the 1st Company of the 1st Battalion.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the commander of the 2nd

19     Company on the 24th of December.

20             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:

21        Q.   And so I'll ask you this:  Just to clarify and for the record, at

22     no time at all were you ever the commander of the 1st Company of the 1st

23     Battalion?

24        A.   I was the commander in July or August.  I think that that was

25     when I was the commander of the 1st Company.

Page 18449

 1        Q.   July, August of which year?

 2        A.   1993.

 3        Q.   As commander, could you indicate to the Trial Chamber who you

 4     recognised as your superior.

 5        A.   First there was the battalion commander Hadzic, Fadil.  That was

 6     between the -- between November 1992 until the 2nd of February, 1993.

 7     After that, Ahmed Zubaca was the commander; he held that post for a brief

 8     period of time.  And then there was Safet Junuzovic.  He was the

 9     commander from June until November of 1993.

10        Q.   My learned friend asked you about Asim Koricic, do you recall?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And did there come a time when Asim Koricic was not in command?

13     Did there come a time when he was away from his post?

14        A.   I think that that happened towards the end of March and at the

15     beginning of April and continued up until the end of 1993.  He then went

16     abroad.  He returned in October.  I couldn't say whether he was the

17     commander or not at the time because I wasn't in a position to know that.

18        Q.   But surely, as commander of your company you must have had

19     certain working relations with somebody who is superior to you.  Who

20     would have you been relating to?

21        A.   Well, the battalion commander.

22        Q.   And who was the battalion commander at the time?

23        A.   At the time there was a deputy from April to June, but we didn't

24     have a commander.

25        Q.   So you're related to your deputy -- you're related to the deputy,

Page 18450

 1     to the battalion commander.  Am I correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, you indicated on page 22, line 10 of the transcript that you

 4     had no communications between April to June of 1993 with the

 5     then-commander.  Did I understand you correctly?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And then you further went on to say but you had telephone

 8     communications.  Am I correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  The deputy commander of the battalion had such

10     communications.  I didn't have any communications.

11        Q.   During April 1993 and June 1993, did you know Mr. Kubura?

12        A.   As I have said, I met Mr. Kubura in January between the 20th and

13     24th of January when he was the Chief of Staff of the brigade.

14        Q.   That's correct, the 24th -- between the 20th and 24th of January

15     you met him.  But my question to you:  Did you have any communications

16     with Mr. Kubura between the period April 1993 to June 1993?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the answer

18     clearly.

19             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:

20        Q.   Sir, can you kindly repeat your answer, please, for the benefit

21     of the transcript because the interpreter did not hear your answer.

22        A.   We didn't have any contact.  I had no contact with Mr. Amir

23     Kubura during that period of time.

24        Q.   With respect to the foreigners or the mujahedins, as it's

25     referred to, could you for the benefit of the Trial Chamber explain to us

Page 18451

 1     what was your experience with respect to the Mujahedins and the

 2     foreigners in Travnik during the period April 1993 to June 1993.

 3        A.   They weren't in Travnik during that period of time, so we

 4     couldn't have any contact with them nor could we see them in Travnik.  As

 5     far as I knew they were in Mehurici and some of them were in Bijelo

 6     Bucje.  They weren't resubordinated to anyone there.  They acted

 7     independently, so sometimes they would cause problems for the locals up

 8     there.

 9        Q.   Now, when I said to you could you tell us in Travnik, I meant

10     when you were -- you were based in Travnik, your AOR in Travnik?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I'm saying to you that during your time there what was your

13     experience, whether they were in Mehurici or whatever.  Could you give us

14     an idea of what transpired.

15        A.   Well -- in fact, I knew nothing about them when I arrived from

16     Prijedor.  I would only see them walking around time.  I would see them

17     in the mosque, but I had no contact with them.  So I couldn't say what

18     sort of experience I had of them.

19        Q.   I take you mean you didn't have personal contact with the

20     foreigners, Mujahedins.  Am I correct?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   Okay.  A little -- a little further down the road.  Are you aware

23     or could you elaborate for the Trial Chamber as to whether soldiers in

24     the 7th Mountain Muslim Brigade received training from foreign fighters

25     or Mujahedins?

Page 18452












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 18453

 1        A.   As far as I know, they didn't receive training from those

 2     foreigners.

 3        Q.   As far as you know did the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade consist of

 4     Muslims?

 5        A.   The 7th Muslim Brigade was composed exclusively of Muslims.

 6        Q.   That's correct.  And as far as you know, could you assist us as

 7     to the ethnicity of the Muslims in the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

 8        A.   Well, they were Bosniaks from Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 9        Q.   Would there be Muslims from other countries in the 7th Muslim

10     Mountain Brigade?

11        A.   No.  No.

12        Q.   When the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade was formed, who were the

13     members or the people that were attracted to this brigade?

14        A.   As far as I know, in Travnik -- they were mostly from Travnik and

15     from the surrounding villages.  These are the men who would come to the

16     7th Muslim Brigade.  There were some men from Prijedor, Banja Luka, Kotor

17     Varos, Mrkonjic and Jajce.  So some of these men joined the 7th Muslim

18     Brigade.  Those are the men I could provide you with information about

19     but I couldn't provide you with information about anyone else because the

20     7th Muslim Brigade had 63 or 72 municipalities -- or had men from 63 or

21     72 municipalities in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22        Q.   And we speak of the ones that you could speak of, the ones that

23     you know.  Would you say that when they came or when they joined the

24     unit, that they came trained?

25        A.   No.  These men were labourers or peasants or secondary school

Page 18454

 1     pupils.

 2        Q.   My colleague asked you the question if you knew or you were

 3     familiar with a certain individual by the name of Ramo Durmis, and I

 4     believe you said yes, you knew him.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Would you be able to assist the Trial Chamber as to how long had

 7     you known the individual Ramo Durmis, first?

 8        A.   I met him around the 25th or 28th of November and then up until

 9     the 5th of January, 1993.  When he left us, I didn't see him again and he

10     didn't come to visit our unit.

11        Q.   Would you describe your relationship as very good, or how would

12     you describe your relationship?  Did you know him very well?

13        A.   Well, my description of him would be very negative.  I could

14     mention an event in Travnik when he attacked a cafe.  We started

15     protecting the cafe, and from that point onwards we weren't on good

16     terms.  My unit wasn't on good terms with his unit and he wasn't on good

17     terms with us.

18        Q.   And do you know if -- do you know why he left the unit, first?

19        A.   No one ever found out why he left the unit and no one will ever

20     find out why until he is asked for the reason.

21        Q.   But certainly, during your working history you related to him as

22     a commander, did you?

23        A.   Well, I said he left between the 5th and 10th of January, 1993,

24     and I never saw him after that date.  I haven't seen him to this very

25     day.

Page 18455

 1        Q.   Yeah, but he was there at some point in time; we agreed on that.

 2        A.   Well, I agree that he was there up until the 5th or 10th of

 3     January, 1993.

 4        Q.   And my question to you is:  During that time, how did you relate

 5     to him?  How did you see him, as a commander?  How did you relate to him?

 6        A.   Well, I have just told you the sort of relationship we had.  We

 7     didn't agree on many things.  We didn't agree on the way he wanted to

 8     organise his unit.  So we had disagreements, misunderstandings.  There

 9     were misunderstandings between my men and his men.

10        Q.   But as far as you were aware and as far as you related to him in

11     that respect, he was somebody of seniority in the 7th Muslim Mountain

12     Brigade, wasn't he?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Yeah, he was.  And would it surprise you if I were to say to you

15     that there were foreigners, so to speak, Mujahedins, in the 7th Muslim

16     Mountain Brigade, not necessarily in your unit but in other units?  Would

17     I be correct?  Would you know that?

18        A.   I am not aware of them.

19        Q.   You're not aware of the members of the unit that Ramo Durmis was

20     in command?

21        A.   No, I'm not.  I don't know who they were.

22        Q.   Was this unit very -- very, very distant from your unit?

23        A.   Well, fairly so.

24        Q.   My colleague showed you Exhibit D -- Defence Exhibit DK29, and it

25     was a list of persons who had received an incentive for results achieved

Page 18456

 1     in the struggle on Allah's path, as it is put.  And I noticed that the

 2     name Ramo Durmis is not there.  I'm sure you could explain to the Trial

 3     Chamber why it's --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  There seems to be a

 5     mistake.  It's not DK29.  It should be P727.

 6             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it should be P727.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam -- Mrs. Henry-Benjamin,

 8     you said DK29; you made a mistake.  It's P727.

 9             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:  I apologise to you, Mr. President.  I would

10     rephrase the question.

11        Q.   The Exhibit P727 was shown to you and it consisted a list of the

12     following members who were awarded a monetary incentive.  Do you recall

13     seeing the list?

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   And I -- I am putting it to you that the name, the individual's

16     name, Ramo Durmis is not on the list.  You'll agree with me?

17        A.   I agree.

18        Q.   Now could you tell me why it's not on the list.  Do you have any

19     idea?

20        A.   Well, we didn't decide on who would be awarded; the brigade

21     command did.  They decided which soldiers and which units should be

22     awarded.

23        Q.   But according to you, when did Ramo Durmis leave?

24        A.   Ramo Durmis left between the 5th and 10th of January, 1993.

25        Q.   So certainly he would not -- the brigade could not have awarded

Page 18457

 1     him anything then because he was not there then.  Thanks.

 2        A.   This award was for combat activities in Visoko in 1992 on the

 3     28th of February.  All those who participated in the activities in Visoko

 4     were awarded.

 5        Q.   Yes, I understand that.  Thanks.

 6             Your AOR was based in Travnik, and if I'm correct - and you can

 7     correct me if I'm wrong - is Maline in the Travnik area?

 8        A.   Maline was not in my zone of responsibility, but Maline is part

 9     of the municipality Travnik.  But it wasn't in the zone of responsibility

10     of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

11        Q.   According to you, Maline was not in your zone of responsibility

12     in that area?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   But could you assist us.  Were you aware of what transpired in

15     Maline on June 8th, 1993?

16        A.   Well, we couldn't have known because the communications in the

17     area that I have marked above Travnik in the direction of Guca Gora, the

18     road was blocked.  So it was impossible for us to reach any of the units

19     in this area here from Travnik to Maline, Mehurici, and Zenica.  We were

20     not in a position to know what was happening there.

21        Q.   How did you view your role or responsibility as commander?

22        A.   My role was a very difficult one because I had to be with the men

23     at all times, wherever they were.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's half past

25     10.00 now, so we will have our break and resume at about 5 to 11.00.

Page 18458

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Henry-Benjamin, I'm giving

 4     you the floor.

 5             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Mr. Jusovic, I just have a couple more questions for you.  First,

 7     could you state for the benefit of the Trial Chamber if at any time you

 8     ever during your tenure with the 7th Muslim Brigade if at any time you

 9     changed battalions?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   So from beginning until end, if I'm correct, you were always the

12     commander of the 1st Company of the 1st Battalion.  Am I right?

13        A.   I was the commander of the 2nd Company.

14        Q.   Sorry --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Henry-Benjamin, on a

16     number of occasions you've tried to make him say that he was the

17     commander of the 1st Company, but he's always claimed that he was the

18     commander of the 2nd Company.

19             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:  My apologies, Mr. President, but it wasn't

20     in fact the company I was getting at but it was in fact the battalion

21     because that has seemed to be the query around here.  But I think he has

22     clarified to us now.

23        Q.   And my last question to you would be:  Could you with any clarity

24     say to the Trial Chamber or explain to the Trial Chamber the position of

25     General Kubura in April to June 1993.  Would you be able to give us any

Page 18459

 1     information with respect to that?

 2        A.   As to Mr. Amir Kubura, I can't provide you any information.  I

 3     know he was the Chief of Staff when I was with him, and as to that period

 4     you're referring to, I don't know what his duties were.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:  Mr. President, that's the cross-examination.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mrs. Henry-Benjamin.

 8     For additional questions I'm now going to give the floor to the Defence.

 9             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No additional questions, Mr.

10     President.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team.

12             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No additional questions, Mr.

13     President.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, I myself have a

15     couple of questions to put to you.

16                           Questioned by the Court:

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You explained to us in replies

18     to our questions that you were on holiday in Switzerland and that you

19     came back and you were included in the staff of the 7th Brigade initially

20     as a simple soldier.  Could you tell the Trial Chamber what your job,

21     your professional activity was before these events.  What was your job

22     before you became a soldier.

23        A.   I was a machine technician and I worked at an automobile repair

24     shop in Switzerland.  So that was my job before.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before those events and before

Page 18460

 1     getting a job in Switzerland, did you do your military service in the

 2     JNA?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where exactly did you do

 5     your military service?

 6        A.   In Sombor and in Skopski Petrovac.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You explained to us that at

 8     first you were a simple soldier, then head of a section, and then you

 9     were appointed commander of the 2nd Company?

10        A.   Yes.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you know for what reason you

12     were appointed?  Were you the most competent amongst the soldiers?  What

13     has led to you being selected and appointed as commander of the 2nd

14     Company?

15        A.   I was an exemplary soldier.  I was obedient, and I gave advice to

16     other soldiers what and how they should do; and that's why I was

17     appointed commander.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So when you were within the 7th

19     Brigade, did you have a soldier's pay?

20        A.   There was no pay.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you had never been paid

22     then?

23        A.   No.  No money.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as far as you know, no

25     other member of the 7th Brigade was receiving any pay?

Page 18461

 1        A.   As far as I know, no.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence earlier on showed

 3     you a document which is table number 3 with regard to the monetary,

 4     financial recompense given to members of the 7th Brigade.  And your name

 5     is indicated on position number 5 in that list.  Does it mean that there

 6     was never actually any money involved, that you never got this financial

 7     incentive?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And now on page 17, line 19 of

10     the transcript, when you were asked whether the 7th Brigade was ever at

11     Maline you said of your own accord that, no, because there were no

12     inhabitants there that could have joined the 7th Brigade.

13             So I was a bit bothered by your reply.  Are we meant to conclude

14     then that the recruitment in as far as the 7th Brigade was concerned was

15     geographical recruitment only?  In other words, those who were members of

16     the 1st Company came from one specific geographical area, you yourself

17     who were in the 2nd Company with your men were from another region, et

18     cetera.  Was that the way in which it was done?

19             In order to make it quite clear:  Were soldiers recruited on the

20     basis of only and exclusively of their geographical origin?

21        A.   No.  The 7th Muslim Brigade was recruiting soldiers and soldiers

22     were placed into battalions and then companies.  We couldn't say, okay,

23     let me have this soldier or that one.  It was the command of the brigade

24     and the battalion who were deciding about that.  So that was within the

25     area of competence of the brigade to mobilise soldiers on the basis of

Page 18462

 1     decision from the defence ministry.  And then they were sent to

 2     battalions and companies.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've only given me a partial

 4     answer to my question.  If, for example, somebody was living in Travnik,

 5     would they have been sent to one particular unit which was stationed at

 6     Travnik, for example, or else would an inhabitant of Travnik -- could

 7     they be sent to another region?

 8        A.   Yes, they could have been sent to another region.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right.  Thank you.  I seem to

10     have understood on the basis of your replies that you yourself had been

11     appointed -- perhaps it's a mistake, but anyway.

12             Apparently you were commander of the 1st Company in July 1993.  I

13     would just simply like to know whether you remained in the 2nd Company

14     throughout that period of time or whether you were in the 2nd Company

15     during the first six months of 1993 and then you were made commander of

16     the 1st Company.  Could you specify that for me, please.

17        A.   I was a commander of the 2nd Company, and of course there were

18     huge losses incurred.  There were lots of people killed and wounded, and

19     we were restructured, as it were.  And the 3rd Company was made the 1st

20     one.  In that month, basically, we only had three companies, not four.

21     So we had to restructure in the battalion in order to have our companies

22     up to full strength, and that's when I was moved to the first company.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were sent to the first

24     company as of July 1993.  Is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 18463

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.  And as of June

 2     1993 -- July 1993, where were you geographically?

 3        A.   We were at Travnik, Bjelovac, and Fojnica.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A couple of minutes earlier you

 5     indicated that you had incurred losses and that soldiers had been killed

 6     and wounded.  Your company, the 2nd Company, did it fall victim to this

 7     situation?  Did you have many killed and wounded?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in the course of what

10     fighting?

11        A.   Around Vitez, at the defence line.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And that was at what time, what

13     month?

14        A.   It was between August and October -- or rather, between July and

15     October.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Between July and October, but

17     what year?

18        A.   1993.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My question was about the 2nd

20     Company because according to my understanding in January, February,

21     March, April, and June in 1993 you were the commander of the 2nd Company.

22        A.   Yes.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as of July 1993 you were

24     made commander of the 1st Company.  Is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 18464

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Between January and July 1993 -

 2     and I'm talking about the 2nd Company only - did you have any losses, any

 3     soldiers killed or wounded?

 4        A.   Yes, we had killed and wounded because the operations area of

 5     that company of the 1st Battalion was quite big.  So in June we had

 6     Hajdareve Njive, Huna [as interpreted], and then we had to get the Bijelo

 7     Bucje back on the 16th of June.  And then we had to close that defence

 8     line.  And then on the 24th of June, we had another fierce battle.  There

 9     was an attack by the HVO and the Montenegrin aggressor at Vagan, Nova

10     Rovna [phoen] and Mascema and we incurred huge losses there, so our

11     company was decimated.  More than half of our soldiers were gone.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You mentioned at a certain

13     point that you had 85 men, that you had between 80 and a hundred soldiers

14     basically.  On the basis of your recollection, out of a hundred how many

15     soldiers would you have lost?

16        A.   I never had as many as a hundred; I had about 60 soldiers.  Then

17     I got about 25 or 30 soldiers from the 1st Company, who happened to be at

18     Travnik.  And after the completion of that operation they went back to

19     their companies of origin when we liberated a certain part of the

20     territory.  So the 1st Company was complete then.  And within my company

21     it was between 30 and 45 soldiers who had been either killed or wounded.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So half of them more or less

23     had been either killed or wounded.

24             Now I'd like to move on to another topic.  You've explained in

25     replying to one of our questions that your company went through periods

Page 18465

 1     when soldiers were on leave and that at that time you would go back to

 2     Travnik to the barracks there or -- and that you would leave your weapons

 3     there and those weapons would be given to those people who were going to

 4     take your positions along the front lines.  Was that the way it happened?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.  When you

 7     relinquished your arms at the barracks, was there some kind of register,

 8     some kind of record which would indicate that on that day the 2nd Company

 9     has left 40 guns, 25 pistols, or what have you?  When you left your

10     weapons at the barracks, was there any written proof of that transaction,

11     as it were, the exchange of arms amongst units?

12        A.   Certainly, yes.  Of course it was all recorded in writing.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you yourself as commander

14     of a company, what was your -- what weapons did you have?

15        A.   I had an automatic rifle.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right.  When you went back to

17     the barracks, would you keep that rifle on you or would you leave it at

18     the barracks?

19        A.   I would leave it there and it would always be at the same place.

20     But nobody else took it.  It stayed at the barracks.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But when you left your

22     automatic rifle at the barracks, would you have to sign any papers to

23     that effect?

24        A.   Our rifles would be recorded by the logistics officer who was

25     there.  So we had our own internal documents, and they were circulating

Page 18466

 1     there.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that automatic rifle could

 3     in theory then be used by somebody else?

 4        A.   Mine wasn't.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Not yours, because you were a

 6     commander?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to move on to another

 9     topic now.  The Prosecution has asked you about the mujahedin and you

10     replied in a spontaneous way that as far as you knew at the Mehurici camp

11     there were some.  And you also mentioned the fact that there might have

12     been some at Bijelo Bucje.

13        A.   Yes, at Bijelo Bucje.  At Bijelo Bucje there were some.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And how did you know that there

15     were some at that place?

16        A.   Because I used to see them there.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because you yourself were in

18     the area?

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what were they up to there?

21        A.   They were staying in a house there, between six and eight of

22     them.  But I don't know what they did.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Were they armed?  Did they have

24     any vehicles?

25        A.   They didn't -- I did not see them carrying either weapons or

Page 18467

 1     driving around in a vehicle.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you yourself, you were

 3     stationed in that area.  You were facing the enemy basically?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And were there trenches there

 6     which had been dug or did you have any other static or moving positions

 7     Did you have set positions?

 8        A.   Well, there were trenches and there were places from where we

 9     could observe the enemy.  Observation posts, that is.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And those mujahedin who were

11     staying at that house, six, seven, or eight, did they stay there for a

12     long time or did they leave or -- first of all, at what distance was that

13     house from where you were?

14        A.   Perhaps 200 metres.  A kilometre.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you never knew what they

16     did there?

17        A.   No.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you saw those people with

19     your own eyes or had you simply been told that there are foreigners a

20     kilometre away, or did you actually see them at such?

21        A.   I saw them myself.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And could you describe their

23     physical appearance, their clothes?

24        A.   They were wearing -- how should I describe this?  Like a jacket,

25     which was slightly longer, down below the knee.  And they were wearing

Page 18468

 1     slippers, and they had long hair and long beards.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And did you talk to them?

 3        A.   No.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you remind us of the

 5     period of time when you yourself were at Bijelo Bucje.

 6        A.   I mentioned already when I was there once every fortnight there

 7     was a change of shift.  And between April and May I was on the front line

 8     for about 45 days.  I never went anywhere else.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were there before the

10     change of shift.  So you had to be there in January, February, and March.

11        A.   Yes.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And my last question:  You

13     talked about this rotation or the change of shifts.  On the basis of your

14     replies, we have seen that you were holding certain positions along the

15     front lines for a certain period of time, in this case it was 45 days,

16     and then you were meant to go back to barracks, and at that stage you

17     would take leave.  Was that the way it was?

18        A.   Yes.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, the leave period, how long

20     was it, generally speaking?

21        A.   It could last for anything between three, five, or maximum eight

22     days, depending on needs.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And after this period of leave,

24     if for example it lasted for a week, you would go back to barracks and

25     what would happen there?  You would be sent to another geographical area

Page 18469

 1     or would you just go back home and wait for instructions?

 2        A.   When we went back to barracks, we would have preparations for

 3     three or four days and then we would go back to the front line where we

 4     were before.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             I'd like to give the floor the Prosecution first for any extra

 7     questions they might have.  Do you wish to ask any questions on any

 8     points of clarification?

 9             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:  I think the Prosecution just has two

10     questions, Mr. President.

11                           Further cross-examination by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

12        Q.   Mr. Jusovic, could you tell me, and pardon me for me

13     pronunciation, could you tell me how big was Bijelo Bucje in terms of

14     numbers of houses or buildings?  How large was this area?

15        A.   120 houses perhaps.

16        Q.   And could you tell us approximately how many inhabitants, how

17     many people lived there?

18        A.   Around 600.

19        Q.   And in this area, would there also be local civilians living

20     there as well?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence now.

24             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have several

25     questions to put to the witness for the sake of clarity.

Page 18470

 1                           Further cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Jusovic, the Presiding Judge asked you where

 3     the fighters of your battalion were coming from.  On page 33 of the

 4     transcript, line 4, when clarifying the makeup and the structure of the

 5     7th Muslim Brigade you explained that, as it says there, within the

 6     brigade there were fighters from 68 -- between 68 and 72 municipalities

 7     in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Is that what you said in reply to the

 8     questions put to you by my learned friend?

 9        A.   I believe it is.

10        Q.   You also said that it was very difficult for fighters to always

11     gather in order to change shifts on the front lines.  You said that some

12     of the members of your battalion lived as far as Nemila in the vicinity

13     of Zenica.  Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In reply to the questions put to you by the Presiding Judge you

16     also said that you had shifts in the area of responsibility of your

17     battalion on the front lines along Bijelo Bucje and that those shifts

18     would change once a fortnight.  Would it be correct, Mr. Jusovic, if I

19     was to say that that was the case all the way up until the month of

20     April, 1993, when your company had to stay there for 45 days?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Is it correct that the other fighters from your battalion in the

23     course of that period of time, that is to say between April -- or as of

24     April could not go back to their duties within their companies and

25     battalions due to the fact that the roads were blocked and communications

Page 18471

 1     were cut off between the places where they took leave and the places

 2     where they were meant to carry out their combat duties?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is it correct that, Mr. Jusovic, at that period of time as a

 5     matter of fact and due to an attack carried out by the HVO in the entire

 6     valley of Lasva there was a total block of all communications for

 7     civilians as well, let alone soldiers between the area of Zenica and

 8     Travnik?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   If my understanding is correct, that was the main reason why your

11     company was unable to leave the front lines at Bijelo Bucje for almost 45

12     days.  Is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   In your reply to the previous questions you said that in that

15     period of time the 4th Company - and the commander of that company was

16     Enver Adilovic - was in the area of Poculica.  Is it correct that that

17     place, Poculica, is not far from Vitez and those fighters as well were

18     not in a position at that particular period of time to get to Travnik?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So basically, the fighters within the 4th Company, as we have

21     heard from the witness Enver Adilovic, were often called Vitez Company

22     because most of them either lived or came from the area of the

23     municipality of Vitez.  Is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   In fact, they went there a few days after the events in Ahmici.

Page 18472

 1     And that was after the 16th of April, 1993, when the HVO attacked Ahmici.

 2     Is that correct?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   Given the composition of the brigade that was from the area of 68

 5     to 72 municipalities, according to your testimony, would it be correct to

 6     say, Mr. Jusovic, that many of those municipalities were occupied by the

 7     Serbian forces during that period?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 9        Q.   And most of those combatants as well as yourself were refugees or

10     displaced persons?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And they were staying in the wider area of the free territory of

13     the 3rd Corps, is that correct, in a vast area?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In response to a question from the Presiding Judge you mentioned

16     the combat that you participated in and you mentioned significant losses

17     that you had sustained during that period of time.  Would it be correct

18     to say that as part of a manoeuvre unit you participated in fierce

19     fighting throughout the summer of 1993?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And that was the reason for which your unit engaged in combat in

22     Fojnica in the area of Vitez on Igman sustained such significant losses?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you very much.  I have no further questions.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 18473

 1             Defence counsel for Mr. Kubura.

 2             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  We

 3     have no questions, but on page 46, line 24, in response to your question

 4     as to how far the house was in which the mujahedin was staying, the house

 5     that he had observed, the witness replied that it was 1.200 metres away,

 6     whereas in the transcript it says 200 metres away.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Sir, this completes your testimony.  On behalf of the Trial

 9     Chamber, I would like to thank you for coming to The Hague and for having

10     answered the questions put to you by Mr. Kubura's Defence.  On behalf of

11     the Chamber, I wish you a safe return to your country and I will now ask

12     the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As we still have some time

16     we'll be able to deal with certain outstanding issues.  First of all,

17     could the Defence inform me of the schedule for the following week, as I

18     haven't received any written submissions.

19             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Could

20     we go into private session for a moment?

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             Mr. Registrar, let's go into private session.

23                           [Private session]

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 18474











11    Page 18474 redacted. Private session.















Page 18475











11    Page 18475 redacted. Private session.















Page 18476

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're back in open session, Mr.

 3     President.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now that we're in open session

 5     I'd like to inform the Defence that our decision concerning judicial

 6     notice will soon be provided; it was signed today.  So you should be

 7     informed of it very soon.  As far as the witness's documents are

 8     concerned, document 6 which was not shown, you are not tendering this

 9     into evidence?  No.  I see.

10             Mr. Registrar, there are some documents that are on stand-by;

11     perhaps you could give them definitive exhibit numbers now.

12                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13             THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  These

14     documents were in fact marked for identification and in accordance with

15     General Hadzihasanovic's -- the Defence for General Hadzihasanovic's

16     request, they will now be given definitive exhibit numbers.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I'd like to inform the

18     Prosecution of the fact that these were documents that weren't

19     translated.  I wanted to ask the Prosecution whether there were any

20     objections and you said that there weren't any objections.  Is that

21     correct, Mr. Mundis?

22             MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, I'm not exactly sure of what

23     documents we're talking about in the absence either copies of the

24     documents or being given the numbers.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you show

Page 18477

 1     the list.

 2             MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, the Prosecution has no objection to

 3     the documents on the list.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             Mr. Registrar, could we have the numbers, please.

 6             THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I will

 7     say the numbers in English to make it easier for the court reporter.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as that is concerned,

 9     Mr. Registrar, before you continue I have noted that sometimes the court

10     reporters changed.  And when a new court reporter appears, the names of

11     individuals and places cause certain problems.  Could the registrar

12     perhaps provide the new court reporters with a list of names and a list

13     of place names to make sure that the transcript reflects what is said and

14     it won't make it necessary for the Defence to rise to point out errors

15     that are made.  It would be good for the court reporters to have a list

16     of place names to the left or to the right so they can immediately enter

17     the names and place names into the transcript.  This is something that

18     should have been done years ago.

19             Please proceed now.

20             THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll

21     deal with this list of documents and I'll provide the documents with a

22     list of final exhibit numbers.  I will do that in English.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

24             MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just wanted to

25     mention the fact that the Defence's offensive when filing these documents

Page 18478

 1     through a motion was to avoid what we are now trying to do.  This was the

 2     procedure followed in the course of the Prosecution case.  They filed a

 3     list.  The Chamber just took note of the list, that is to say they took

 4     note of the fact that the ID was being replaced for all these documents.

 5     Perhaps we can deal with this in the same matter in order to save time,

 6     although we have a lot of time.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, how many

 8     documents do we have there, how many numbers?

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will follow

11     Mr. Bourgon's suggestion.

12             Mr. Registrar, the Trial Chamber notes that the numbers on the

13     documents marked for identification will now become final exhibit

14     numbers.  Could you just mention that this will be done in accordance

15     with the decision that has just been rendered.

16             THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We'll proceed as the Chamber has

17     stated.  However the registry has noted that two documents, two

18     references, have already been admitted DH414 and 1936, DH 1936 [In

19     English]...  Evidence prior to the request of the Defence of General

20     Hadzihasanovic.

21             [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             As we have some time left, are there any other issues that either

24     of the parties would like to raise?  Mr. Bourgon.

25             MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

Page 18479

 1     just like to inform the Trial Chamber of the following technical issue.

 2     Since we have now started with the Defence case for the second accused we

 3     believe, Mr. President, that the only party that has the right to

 4     re-examine the witness is Defence counsel for the accused who is

 5     presenting his case because as Defence counsel for General Hadzihasanovic

 6     we don't have the right to re-examine.  This would safeguard the rights

 7     of everyone concerned.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What do you mean by that?

 9             MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] When a witness is called by the

10     second accused, we'll have the examination-in-chief, followed by the

11     cross-examination by the second accused, then the cross-examination by

12     the Prosecution.  When the time for re-examination comes, it's only the

13     party that has called the witness that can re-examine the witness.  The

14     Defence team for the other accused does not have the right to re-examine

15     the witness.  This would not be fair for the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but so far when your

17     witnesses testified, there was the examination-in-chief, the

18     Prosecution's cross-examination, additional questions.  And then

19     Brigadier Kubura's Defence counsel asked additional questions, not always

20     but occasionally.  And after the Judge's questions everyone had the right

21     to ask new questions, additional questions.  This is how we have

22     proceeded so far.

23             MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Exactly, Mr. President.  After the

24     Chamber's questions, naturally all the parties have the right to ask

25     additional questions.  But in order to avoid any problems in the future,

Page 18480

 1     this is why I raise the issue.  If the Defence counsel for Mr. Kubura had

 2     the opportunity of asking questions, had the opportunity of re-examining

 3     the witness, well this isn't something I have noticed so far.  But I now

 4     see that on two occasions we have been given the possibility of

 5     re-examining the witness, whereas that should not really be done, Mr.

 6     President.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but the rules don't

 8     specify anything in particular.  As far as this legal issue is concerned,

 9     what is the Prosecution's position?

10             MR. MUNDIS:  Well, Mr. President, we had noticed of course during

11     the course of the Hadzihasanovic case that the Chamber was allowing the

12     Kubura Defence to re-examine the witnesses as well.  Certainly the

13     general practice of the Tribunal is that the party who is calling the

14     witness is entitled to re-examine the witness following the

15     cross-examination, and the other parties or other co-accused are not

16     generally entitled to have a second go following their cross-examination.

17             I will simply leave it at that.  It is entirely within the Trial

18     Chamber's discretion to control how the proceedings are followed.  But I

19     do believe my learned colleague is correct in the sense that the Rules as

20     written, I believe, only allow or only specifically allow for the party

21     calling the witness to re-examine following the cross-examination.  And

22     as Your Honours has pointed out, it's a different situation following any

23     questions that the Trial Chamber may have for a witness.  I think in

24     those circumstances, all the parties should be given an opportunity to

25     ask further questions.

Page 18481

 1             But the general procedure seems to be in and the trial practice

 2     here is that the party calling the witness conducts a direct examination,

 3     the co-accused would then be entitled to cross-examine, the Prosecution

 4     would cross-examine, and then the party who called the witness would be

 5     entitled to re-examine, but the co-accused would not be entitled to have

 6     a second cross-examination.  I think that that is what my learned

 7     colleague Mr. Bourgon is referring to.  But I simply leave it up to the

 8     Trial Chamber in terms of to how to control the proceedings.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence team?  I

10     can see that Mr. Dixon is looking at the Rules.  Mr. Dixon.

11             MR. DIXON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have taken the

12     opportunity to look at Rule 85 (B) which, as Your Honour indicated, does

13     not make it clear which parties can or cannot examine in-chief,

14     cross-examine, and re-examine.  The Rule simply says:

15     "Examination-in-chief, cross-examination, and re-examination shall be

16     allowed in each case."  And in our submission, the practice has been for

17     the other counsel for the other defendant to have an opportunity to

18     re-examine.  That certainly has been the case all along.  And we don't

19     see any reason why that need change now, that the Defence for Mr. Kubura

20     is presenting their case.

21             It is entirely for the Trial Chamber to decide how to control the

22     examination of witnesses.  The Rules do not specify exactly how that

23     should be done, and it's in our submission for the Trial Chamber to -- in

24     its discretion for Your Honours to determine how best that should occur,

25     and that had worked effectively up until now.  And in our submission, we

Page 18482

 1     don't see a reason why that should change for our case.  So we would have

 2     no objection for the Defence team for Hadzihasanovic also asking

 3     questions in re-examination in line with the practice up to now, Your

 4     Honours.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I just have one question

 6     for Mr. Bourgon.  Allowing you to ask an additional question, how would

 7     this cause you prejudice?  You're not obliged to put such a question.  If

 8     you ask a question, that's means it's in your interest.  Could you

 9     explain that to me.

10             MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the situation is

11     quite the reverse.  We don't want any advantages that we don't have the

12     right to.  If the Chamber gives us the opportunity to proceed in this

13     manner, it will be our pleasure to do so, but we believe that it's

14     important for the procedure followed to be fair and the time that is

15     allocated for each witness is also an important matter.  So we are just

16     emphasising this fact.  On a number of occasions we have heard the

17     Prosecution use the phrase "out of an abundance of precaution," so we're

18     just emphasising this fact.  But naturally, if the Chamber gives us the

19     possibility of re-examining, we'll take advantage of the fact.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kubura's Defence team

21     took advantage of this possibility but in a moderate manner and I'm sure

22     that you will do the same.  Are there any other issues that you would

23     like to raise?

24             The Prosecution?  No matters to raise?

25             Mr. Kubura's Defence team?  No issues to raise?

Page 18483

 1             In that case, we will now adjourn and I will see you at the

 2     hearing on Monday at 2.15 p.m. Thank you.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.53 a.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day of

 5                           April, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.