Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18484

1 Monday, 18 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Case

8 Number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir

9 Kubura.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

13 Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. Daryl Mundis

14 for the Prosecution, assisted today by our intern, Daniella Rudy, and our

15 case manager, Andres Vatter.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

17 Could we have the appearances for Defence counsel, please.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Good

19 day, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic,

20 lead counsel, and Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And could we have the

22 appearances for the other Defence team, please.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On

24 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and our legal

25 assistant, Nermin Mulalic.

Page 18485

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 On the 18th of April, the 210th day of the proceedings, I would

3 like to greet everyone present in the courtroom, the Prosecution, Defence

4 counsel, and the accused, as well as everyone else assisting us. We have

5 a witness scheduled for today, who we will be hearing in minute. But we

6 have some housekeeping matters to deal with first of all.

7 On the 11th of April, a written submission from the Defence was

8 filed with us concerning the sixth version of the exhibit list. The

9 documents referred to are voluminous. We have 284 exhibits referred to.

10 To facilitate the Judges' work and the work of the Chamber's legal

11 officers, as well as the work of the registrar, I would like to ask the

12 Defence to provide us with a new list which contains only exhibits that

13 have not yet been admitted, because in your submissions and the 284 pages,

14 there are four categories of documents. There are some documents that

15 have already been admitted, others that have been marked for

16 identification, and then we have documents that have not yet been admitted

17 into evidence. What I'm particularly interested in are the documents that

18 have not yet been allocated exhibit numbers. In addition, in regard to

19 these documents that do not yet have exhibit numbers, it would be useful

20 to have in column number 11, since you have established columns, it would

21 be good to have the name of the witness concerned in that column through

22 whom the documents were shown or referred to. For example, document 352

23 which was used in the course of the testimony of the expert who was a

24 witness in history. In column 11 there could be a reference to the

25 witness's name.

Page 18486

1 Similarly, it would also assist the Judges if we had another list,

2 with this list in an alphabetical order. We could have the names of the

3 witnesses in alphabetical order and by their names the numbers of the

4 exhibits used in chronological order, the number of exhibits used. For

5 example, in the came of witness Kasim Trnka, we could have this witness

6 mentioned and then by the name of the witness reference to all the

7 documents that were used when the witness testified. In the case of Trnka

8 we might have 368, 372, et cetera. These documents could be referred to.

9 In addition to these new lists, I'd like to point out that the

10 Prosecution should inform us within two weeks of their position in

11 relation to documents that have not been admitted so that we can render a

12 written decision, which is what we did in the case of the Prosecution's

13 exhibits, a written decision that concerns all these documents. Perhaps

14 the Prosecution won't need two weeks, but let's say that we should have --

15 we should be informed of their position, of the Prosecution's position, as

16 soon as possible.

17 Having said that, there are two other issues I would like to deal

18 with, issues that we had not dealt with yet with regard to translation,

19 translation of P662. It concerns the term "odnosno." Mr. Registrar, we

20 need a number for the memo dated the 27th of January, 2005, because we

21 don't have a number for this memo. And we need to re-number three other

22 memos that deal with the same issue which deal with the term "odnosno."

23 The 27th of January, the 7th of February, and the 3rd of March are the

24 dates of these memos. We need a common number with three tabs in

25 chronological order.

Page 18487

1 Mr. Registrar, if you have followed what I have said, you could

2 perhaps inform us of these numbers.

3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, in

4 fact I was following you, and the registry suggests the following number:

5 Under number C8 we would admit three different tab numbers. The first one

6 refers to the first CLSS memo dated the 27th of January, 2005. Under tab

7 number 2 we will have the CLSS memo dated the 7th of February, 2005. And

8 finally, under tab 3 we'll have the memo dated the 3rd of March, 2005, the

9 CLSS memo. This means that C8 which was allocated to the 7th of February

10 memo shall be deleted and be replaced by the number I've mentioned. And

11 C11, which concerns the 3rd of March memo, is also now redundant. So we

12 have three different tabs under C8.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The term "odnosno"

14 has been examined by CLSS, and the memo is now under C8 and we have three

15 tabs.

16 We also have a problem that concerns DH165.6. We have a memo on

17 the 22nd of February, 2004 that doesn't have a number. We have another

18 memo dated the 14th of February, 2005, the number of which is C9. C9

19 should be a common number, and we should have two tabs under C9 in

20 chronological order.

21 Mr. Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. In

23 accordance with your decision, C9 will have two tabs. The first one shall

24 concern the CLSS memo dated the 22nd of February, 2004. And tab number 2

25 concerns CLSS memo dated the 14th of February, 2005.

Page 18488

1 Thank you, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And our last issue

3 that we have to deal with -- and could the Prosecution please pay

4 attention to what I will now say. With regard to the translation of the

5 note from Witness ZP that concerns investigations that didn't bear any

6 fruit. This note, and the Defence requested that it be admitted into

7 evidence, well, we should rule on the Defence's request to have this

8 document admitted into evidence. And before the registrar gives us

9 with -- provides us with a number, the Prosecution should inform me of

10 their position, unless the Prosecution requires some time to examine this

11 issue that first arose quite a while ago.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 If we're referring I believe to the handwritten note dated the

14 20th of June, 2004, we have no objection to that being admitted into

15 evidence.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As far as the

17 written -- the handwritten note is concerned, could we have a number,

18 Mr. Registrar? The 20th of June is the date. The interpreter made an

19 error.

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The number will be DH2163/E for

21 the note dated the 20th of June.

22 [In English] This is the English translation. The original of

23 this exhibit is admitted into evidence under the reference DH2163.

24 [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see that Mr. Dixon is ready to

Page 18489

1 get on his feet. Mr. Dixon, you may take the floor.

2 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 There's just one matter in relation to the translation issue for

4 document C8, and that is that Your Honours will recall that we submitted

5 an excerpt from the dictionary on the word "odnosno" explaining what the

6 meaning of the word was, and Your Honours were given a copy of that and

7 the Prosecution as well. And we would request, Your Honours, that that

8 document also be made part of document C8, perhaps as tab number 4. It

9 was a document that was referred to in the memoranda, the dictionary

10 definition. If it would be part of all the documents, we would greatly

11 appreciate that.

12 Thank you.

13 [Trial Chamber confers].

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, if you remember, the

15 Defence provided a copy of an extract from a dictionary in Croatian and

16 English, a Croatian and English dictionary, Zagreb 2001. And Defence

17 counsel suggests that we give this document tab number 4 under C8. What

18 would your position be?

19 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 Mr. Registrar, with regard to this document could we have a tab

22 number, please, since these are B/C/S terms translated into English. It

23 would have been more complicated if the reverse had been the case.

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. In

25 accordance with the Defence's request, this will be a document admitted

Page 18490

1 into evidence under C8, and the tab number will be tab number 4.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If there are any

3 other versions, we could allocate other tab numbers, 5, 6, and 7, this

4 will depend on versions, on the various versions that both parties might

5 find. Perhaps the Prosecution will come across other translations of the

6 term. This is why it's very useful to use tabs because we can continue

7 adding other documents incessantly.

8 If there are no other problems, Mr. Bourgon, you have the floor.

9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good day,

10 Madam Judge, good day, Your Honour.

11 There are two issues I would like to raise. The first concerns a

12 document that we should tender before the -- we should have tendered

13 before the close of our case. This is a document that we have discussed

14 and it has been shown to my colleagues from the Prosecution. It's a

15 translation of the additional question that was put to the witness.

16 Perhaps we can go into private session so I can mention the

17 witness's name.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 18491











11 Page 18491 redacted. Private session.















Page 18492

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're back in open session,

9 Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. With regard to the final

13 exhibit lists and the comments to that list by the Prosecution, it was our

14 earlier understanding that our two-week period would begin to run from the

15 point in time when the Defence has notified us that all the translations

16 in fact were available, and I'm wondering if we can perhaps have any

17 additional information as to any remaining translations.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, there are two

19 possibilities. The 14-day time limit will start running as of the 11th of

20 April, or as of the time when the last translation was provided. Could

21 the Defence provide us with any information about that?

22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23 My colleague is right. In our written submission we suggested,

24 and I think that an order has already been rendered by the Trial Chamber

25 in this regard, we stated that the 14 days for the Prosecution would run

Page 18493

1 as of the time the last translation has been filed. And I can now inform

2 the Trial Chamber that we will file additional translations. We should be

3 receiving them today, and we will file them on Thursday, Thursday, the

4 20th -- I apologise, the 21st of April. And then there will be one last

5 filing which we will make on the 28th of April. And by that time we

6 believe that we will have been provided with all the translations from the

7 registry. This means that this would give the Prosecution up until the

8 12th of May to make any comments with regard to the list.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since that there will be two

10 stages, the 12th of May would be a good date.

11 Mr. Mundis, what's your opinion?

12 MR. MUNDIS: We anticipate no problems in meeting the deadline of

13 the 12th of May. And of course we'll endeavour to respond sooner than

14 that, if that's possible.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

16 If there are no other issues to deal with, we will now call the

17 witness into the courtroom. Mr. Usher.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President. While the witness is coming in, I

19 believe the document that we've admitted that was dated the 20th of June,

20 2004, should be placed under seal, in light of the fact that the witness

21 who provided that was --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I was wondering about that.

23 Mr. Registrar, with regard to the document dated the 21st of June,

24 could we have the reference?

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 18494

1 This document was in fact dated the 21st of June. It was under

2 seal. I take note of the fact.

3 Thank you, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I would

7 first of all like to check that technology is working. So could you let

8 me know if you understand what I'm saying to you in your own language?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can hear you and I can

10 understand what you're saying.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Before taking

12 an oath, I need to identify you. Could you give me your first name, your

13 second name, your date and place of birth.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am Safet Junuzovic. I was born on

15 the 12th of June, 1971, at a place called Kuka in the municipality of

16 Visegrad.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Do you have a job or

18 a profession at the moment, and if so which one?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work for the armed forces of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that leads me to conclude

22 that you're a member of the armed forces. Can you tell me what your rank

23 is at the moment?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. I'm a major.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell me, with regard

Page 18495

1 to the period 13 years ago, more than 13 years ago, 1992/1993, were you a

2 member of the armed forces then and, if so, what unit were you a part of

3 at the time and what rank did you have?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In April 1992, I was in my second

5 year of the military academy for ground forces in Belgrade. In July, I

6 came to Bosnia and joined Municipal Staff of Territorial Defence of the

7 city of Zenica. And I was a platoon commander in the 1st Zenica

8 Detachment.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in 1993?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1993 I was a member of the

11 7th Muslim Brigade, and in April I am an operations officer within the

12 command of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A commander, sir. Have you

14 already testified before an international or a national tribunal with

15 regard to facts that happened in your country in the period of time

16 between 1992 and 1993, or is it the first time that you are testifying

17 before justice?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So far I've never testified, and

19 this is the first time that I am before any court at all.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like you to read out the

21 text of the oath that the usher is going to show you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I solemnly declare

23 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 18496

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Major, you may sit down.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to

4 General Kubura's Defence team, since they've asked you to appear as a

5 Defence witness, so before I do that I'd like to give you some

6 information, the same sort of information I give all witnesses with regard

7 to the way in which we're going to be working here in the course of this

8 hearing.

9 You will first of all be called upon to answer questions which

10 will be put to you by the Defence team. You will have met them previously

11 in the course of the proofing for this hearing, and those questions are

12 asked in such a way as to be neutral, and they will require you to provide

13 answers which on occasion may be rather lengthy and elaborate.

14 After that the Prosecution team, which is sitting to your right,

15 through their representative, Mr. Mundis, will be asking you questions

16 within the framework of what we tend to call in the common law procedure

17 cross-examination. And within that framework, the questions that are

18 going to be put to you may sometimes be leading questions.

19 Following the cross-examination by the Prosecution team, the

20 Defence team will be able to ask questions again. We should not forget

21 General Hadzihasanovic's Defence team because they, too, before the

22 Prosecution starts with their cross-examination, they too, as I was

23 saying, will be able to put questions to you in case they deem that

24 necessary for the purposes of their case.

25 Once the Prosecution has completed their cross-examination, at

Page 18497

1 that stage General Kubura's Defence team will be able to come back and ask

2 you extra questions. Those extra questions, generally speaking, are also

3 neutral questions without any leading questions being asked.

4 Following this re-examination by the Defence team, General

5 Hadzihasanovic's Defence team will also be able to ask you extra

6 questions.

7 The three Judges sitting in front of you will also be able to ask

8 you questions at all times, but for reasons of convenience, as it were, we

9 prefer to allow the Defence and the Prosecution to ask questions that they

10 feel are most useful for the purposes of their cases. And in case we wish

11 some more clarification with regard to any of your replies, we will indeed

12 ask questions. And also if we feel that there are important gaps in the

13 replies you will have given to these questions, we may try to fill those

14 gaps by asking questions.

15 Once we have asked our questions, we will leave it up to the

16 Prosecution and the Defence to ask any other useful questions that they

17 feel they wish to ask following the answers you have given to the Judges'

18 questions. To the extent possible, please do and try reply in a concise

19 and precise way to the questions asked because this is an oral procedure

20 and this is why you can see in front of you the transcript, the

21 translation into English of whatever said in this courtroom, and so this

22 will be proof of what you say.

23 It may well happen that in the course of the examination-in-chief

24 or the cross-examination, the documents, which are almost all of military

25 nature, may be shown to you, either because you yourself are the author of

Page 18498

1 those documents or else because you may be familiar with them due to your

2 previous duties. And at that stage you will be asked to comment on those

3 documents and the types of those documents.

4 I also need to draw your attention to two more important points.

5 First of all, a very simple point, you've taken an oath stating that you

6 will tell the truth, and that of course excludes the possibility of

7 perjury. The second point is rather more complicated. It is included in

8 our Rules of Procedure. If you are asked a question, you may refuse to

9 answer the question if you believe that your reply may at some point in

10 the future provide certain elements which might be used against you. In

11 that case, you may well answer, No, I don't feel like answering that

12 question. In that case, though, which has never happened so far, the

13 Trial Chamber may nevertheless ask you to reply and guarantee that you

14 have some sort of immunity.

15 If in the course of our hearing today you feel that there are any

16 problems, don't hesitate to let us know. For technical reasons and in

17 order to be able to give you some rest between now and 7.00 p.m., we will

18 have two breaks lasting between 20 and 30 minutes. As I've already

19 mentioned, this is in order to give you some rest because you will no

20 doubt see that answering questions nonstop is rather tiring, and also we,

21 too, need these breaks in order to be able to change the tapes.

22 Apart from that, if everything goes well you won't have to come

23 back tomorrow, but that of course will depend on how much time will the

24 Defence need in order to put the questions to you, and the same goes for

25 the cross-examination by the Prosecution.

Page 18499

1 Now I'd like to give the floor to the Defence team for General

2 Kubura.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We'll

4 try and make sure that we use our time in a rational manner so that we can

5 complete this witness today.

6 Examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Junuzovic, we have heard you answer the

8 question put to you by the Presiding Judge as to where you were in 1992

9 and 1993, so I'm not going to repeat that question once again.

10 I would like to know when exactly it was when you joined the

11 7th Muslim Brigade and what exactly you did there.

12 A. On the 9th of February I was ordered to join the 7th Muslim

13 Brigade, and I was placed within the operations and training team.

14 Q. On the basis of what order?

15 A. On the basis of the order from the command, the command of the

16 3rd Corps.

17 Q. You said that you were a part of the operations and training body.

18 Could you tell us what exactly was that about, what were your duties

19 within that framework?

20 A. The operations and training body first and foremost has the duty

21 to plan and to a certain extent participate in the implementation and

22 carry out controls of training within units to which they belong; that's

23 one aspect of our work. And the second aspect is the assessment of our

24 own forces with regard to any operations they may be called upon to carry

25 out and the planning of those operations.

Page 18500

1 Q. When you joined the 7th Muslim Brigade, that is to say in February

2 of 1993, who was the commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade?

3 A. Asim Koricic was the commander at the time.

4 Q. Did you meet Mr. Koricic?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Who was issuing orders to you at that time when you were working

7 for the command of the brigade?

8 A. At that time the commander of the brigade, Asim Koricic, and then

9 Amir Kubura was the Chief of Staff, and I myself mostly got my duties

10 assigned to me by Ahmet Zubaca, who was an assistant to the Chief of Staff

11 for operations and training.

12 Q. Mr. Junuzovic, could you tell us whether you know if at some point

13 Mr. Koricic left the 7th Muslim Brigade?

14 A. I don't know when exactly it was, but it happened at some point

15 in the beginning of April 1993.

16 Q. What was Mr. Kubura's position at the time?

17 A. I think it was less than clear, basically. He was not a deputy or

18 a representative of the commander -- I mean when Mr. Koricic was leaving.

19 So he was not an acting commander. He was not deputy or representative,

20 and a whole range of issues came up, especially with regard to logistics

21 and financial affairs of this brigade.

22 Q. Could you clarify what you mean by "less than clear"?

23 A. At that stage in our -- April 1994, there were instructions from

24 the armed forces with regard to material and financial affairs and the

25 bookkeeping. According to certain instructions and rules and regulations,

Page 18501

1 the commanders of units were allowed to -- when it came to certain duties

2 with regard to the reception and the dealing of financial matters or

3 funds, they could ask other people to deal with it, either the deputy for

4 logistics or the Chief of Staff or the assistants for financial affairs.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the question put by

6 the Defence.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until the point when Mr. Koricic

8 left the brigade, Amir Kubura used to sign this, but he said "on behalf

9 for," so it would always read "Asim Koricic," and Mr. Kubura would sign on

10 his behalf. So I think you will have seen a whole range of documents of

11 this sort. And as far as I know, he was not officially given those

12 duties.

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. What about the rules for the use of the seal?

15 A. According to instructions with regard to office work, the

16 commander and the Chief of Staff and his assistants, who were entitled to

17 sign on his behalf or either on their own behalf, when it came to the

18 general affairs office, they had to deposit their full signature there and

19 their initials as well. So along with the seals. And it had to be

20 indicated very clearly who was able to use the seal.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there is a slight

22 mistake on the transcript on page 11. It should read "1993," but the

23 transcript says "1994."

24 Q. Mr. Junuzovic, could you tell us whether Mr. Kubura had an office

25 within the 7th Muslim Brigade.

Page 18502

1 A. Yes, he did. It was situated within the staff premises. In one

2 part of the building there was Mr. Kubura as the staff, and then his two

3 assistants, one for operations and training, and the other for

4 intelligence, together with experts, experts for intelligence, for

5 operations and departments. And in the other part of the building, there

6 was Mr. Asim Koricic with his assistants for logistics, financial affairs,

7 and morale.

8 Q. In 1993 do you know exactly what office Mr. Kubura was using?

9 A. Until the very end of November or December, he used -- he used the

10 offices of the Chief of Staff.

11 Q. Do you know if Mr. Koricic at some point came back to Zenica and

12 to the 7th Muslim Brigade?

13 A. It was in the beginning of September. The brigade at that time

14 was on duty in the area of the municipality of Vitez. He came along. And

15 if I may say so - and I mean this is my own opinion here - and everybody

16 kept asking questions, how could he come, because all the roads were

17 blocked. And then he asked openly about his own status, how come Amir

18 Kubura all of a sudden was commander? And how was his status going to be

19 solved? He inspected the units very often, especially the 1st Battalion,

20 and he held a number of meetings there. But it basically created disarray

21 at the time. At that stage I was the commander of the 1st Battalion, and

22 it brought about a certain unease.

23 Q. How long did he stay in the 7th Muslim Brigade?

24 A. Up until mid-December he was in Bilmiste. And in mid-December he

25 went to Travnik. He no longer appeared in Bilmiste, and I think that

Page 18503

1 sometime in February some other unit had been established with its

2 headquarters in Travnik, and he was at its head.

3 Q. Mr. Junuzovic, at some time in 1993 did you become the commander

4 of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade?

5 A. On the 17th of June, I went to Travnik. I left Zenica and went to

6 Travnik. And the exact date when I was appointed as a commander was the

7 20th or the 21st of June.

8 Q. You then arrived in Travnik and you became the commander of the

9 1st Battalion?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was that the period after the conflicts in June 1993?

12 A. According to the proposal from the brigade command, I was to take

13 over the battalion in mid-April. But because the roads had been blocked

14 and it was impossible to establish communications, this was postponed

15 until it became possible to take over the battalion. This happened after

16 the road from Zenica to Ovnak to Travnik had been opened.

17 Q. What was the situation like in Travnik when you arrived in June

18 1993 and what was the situation like in your battalion?

19 A. At that period of time I saw that the battalion wasn't in just one

20 place and didn't have just one task to carry out. I found a company in

21 the zone of responsibility of the brigade in Bijelo Bucje in Travnik

22 municipality. Part of the area faced Turbe, the other part Donji Vakuf.

23 Part of the unit was engaged in the zone of responsibility of the 325th

24 Vitez Brigade in the area of Poculica and Preocica. And a significant

25 part of the troops were dispersed in various other units, including the

Page 18504

1 308th from Novi Travnik and then the brigade from Bugojno, rather, Vakuf

2 that was in the area of Rostovo and Ravno Rostovo. And generally speaking

3 the situation in the area was very difficult. Brigades had been

4 established to a certain extent by that time, and they were holding lines

5 facing the Chetnik aggressor on the plateau towards Vlasic and Vakuf, and

6 in another area new lines were being established facing the HVO in the

7 entire area of the Bila Valley.

8 Q. When you arrived in Travnik and assumed the duties of the brigade

9 commander, did you have any meetings with officers from the Bosnian

10 Krajina OG and with the commander?

11 A. At the time in the battalion Mr. Terzic was in the battalion at

12 the time. He was representing the brigade. He was there on behalf of the

13 brigade. When I arrived in Travnik, when I took over the battalion, he

14 took me to the command of the Bosnian Krajina OG. He introduced me to

15 General Alagic at the time and to members of his command. I then met the

16 commander of the 17th Krajina, Mr. Cuskic, and on the 18th or 19th, on the

17 following day, there was a briefing attended by brigade commanders. And

18 as I was -- or rather, as my battalion was the only one in Travnik and the

19 other two battalions were in Zenica at the brigade command, I attended not

20 on behalf of the 7th Muslim, but on behalf of my battalion.

21 Q. The 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade, when you arrived

22 there, was part of the Bosnian Krajina OG?

23 A. The order on integrating the brigade within the Bosnian Krajina OG

24 was issued earlier, in March I think. Since the zone of responsibility

25 facing the Serbian aggressor was in that area that had been assigned to

Page 18505

1 the Bosnian Krajina OG. And as a result, we were there up until the

2 beginning of April in the zone of responsibility. We had forces the

3 strength of a battalion there. And for that reason, during that period of

4 time, the brigade was officially part of the Bosnian Krajina OG.

5 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like to

6 use certain documents, and with your leave I would like to show these

7 documents to the witness.

8 Q. Mr. Junuzovic, when you arrived in Travnik were you informed where

9 the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade was engaged? I'm referring to

10 combat activities at the beginning of June 1993 in the Travnik area?

11 A. I'm only referring to troops the strength of a company. But at

12 the time one platoon was in the zone of responsibility facing Bijelo

13 Bucje, whereas the others - this included a company that lacked one

14 platoon - part of the battalion command, communications department, and

15 the police section, they were involved in combat together with the

16 17th Krajina. And I'm referring to engaging in action on the 8th and 9th

17 in Hajdareve Njive and Sivica [phoen].

18 Q. Where is Hajdareve Njive?

19 A. Well, it's a small pass -- or rather, it's not a pass, on the road

20 between Travnik and Dolac in the direction of the Lasva Valley. There's a

21 little hill there and that's where they were engaged in action there.

22 That's between Travnik and Dolac.

23 Q. How far is it from Travnik?

24 A. Well, not more than a kilometre and a half or two kilometres.

25 Q. Could we have a look at the document under tab 4 in the bundle.

Page 18506

1 It's a combat order from the Bosanska Krajina OG, dated the 9th of June,

2 1993.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] It's a new document.

4 Mr. President. The Defence obtained it by examining archives of the ABiH.

5 Q. So as not to waste any time, could you just have a look at the

6 last sentence and read it out.

7 A. "The 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade with the

8 1st Battalion of the 17th Krajina Mountain Brigade are taking over

9 Sibicara and Okuka."

10 Q. That order concerns the 9th of June, 1993; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us where Sibicara and Okuka are located?

13 A. Sibicara is the name administrate match factory in the place

14 called Dolac which is on the Travnik to Vitez road. And Okuka is the

15 bridge that leads from that road to Dolac. It's to the side.

16 Q. How far is this area from Travnik and where is that exactly? How

17 far is the Sibicara and Okuka area from Travnik?

18 A. Well, it's at a distance of about three kilometres. It's on that

19 road. It's on the road from Travnik to Vitez.

20 Q. When the witness was reading out, I think that something wasn't

21 entered into the transcript. It doesn't say the 1st Battalion of the

22 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. That's when the witness was reading the last

23 sentence in the document. I'm just saying that for the sake of the

24 transcript. The witness could read out the sentence again or confirm that

25 that is what he actually said.

Page 18507

1 Q. Mr. Junuzovic, from whom did you find out about the combat

2 activities of the company? You said that they were involved in the area

3 in Hajdareve Njive and Sibicara and Okuka? Who provided you with that

4 information?

5 A. My deputy Horo Naim and Jusovic Suad, the commander. They

6 mentioned Hajdareve Njive because one of the platoon commanders was killed

7 there, and they also mentioned someone called Zis who fought well and he

8 was killed there. So that's why it's stuck in my memory and I know they

9 were in Hajdareve Njive.

10 Q. Did you obtain any information from the command of the Bosanska

11 Krajina OG and from General Alagic?

12 A. Not in relation to these events. This concerns activities they

13 were involved in before I arrived there. I arrived ten days later. So I

14 wasn't provided with any other information in the form of a document.

15 This document was placed in the archives.

16 Q. Could you say during which period you were the commander of the

17 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade?

18 A. From the 17th of June until the 9th of December, 1993. That's the

19 exact period.

20 Q. During that period while you were the commander of the

21 1st Battalion, did you receive an order of any kind to inform the command

22 to Bosanska Krajina OG or the 3rd Corps of the participation of the

23 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade during this period from the

24 beginning of June 1993? Were you asked to write a report of any kind?

25 A. No. I was never asked to draft a report or an analysis or to do

Page 18508

1 anything that related to those events and to the participation of those

2 troops in combat.

3 Q. Did you receive an order of any kind requesting you -- asking you

4 to submit a report on whether members of the 1st Battalion participated in

5 combat in Maline at the beginning of June 1993?

6 A. No. If we're talking about this company, they were only engaged

7 in the Bijelo Bucje area and in the area of Hajdareve Njive and Sibicara.

8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Junuzovic, have you heard of the village of

9 Miletici?

10 A. I heard of the village of Miletici when an indictment was brought

11 against Mr. Amir Kubura.

12 Q. I will now repeat the same question I put to you earlier on. When

13 you were the commander did you receive an order of any kind asking you to

14 report whether the 1st Battalion had ever been in Miletici and asking you

15 to report on the events in the village of Miletici? Did you receive such

16 an order from the commander of the Bosanska Krajina OG, from the security

17 service, from your superior commander, or from the 3rd Corps?

18 A. At that time and when I was one of the members of the brigade

19 command in April and in May in Zenica and then later on as the battalion

20 commander in Travnik, no one ever asked me about this and I never heard

21 that someone in the brigade command had been asked about that village.

22 And as I said, the first time I heard about that village was after an

23 indictment had been brought. I didn't even know where this village was

24 located. I have to have a look for the village by using a map.

25 Q. I'm now referring to the events in Maline, Bikosi, and Miletici.

Page 18509

1 Was there any oral briefing concerning those events in the Bosanska

2 Krajina OG?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Junuzovic, do you know that in the camp of

5 Mehurici -- do you know that in the village of Mehurici there was a camp

6 where foreign combatants stayed?

7 A. I've heard about that.

8 Q. Were you ever in that camp? Did you ever go to that camp?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did anyone from that camp come to the command of your battalion in

11 Travnik?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Could you now have a look at the document in the bundle under

14 tab 8. For the transcript it's document DH269.

15 Have you had a look at the document?

16 A. Well, I'm familiar with this document.

17 Q. Did you sign the document?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber how it is that you drafted this

20 document.

21 A. When preparing to carry out combat around the 24th of June in the

22 of responsibility of the Bosanska Krajina OG and the Zapad OG, when

23 preparing to carry out such combat there was a briefing with General

24 Alagic. At that briefing, he orally put questions to us. He asked us

25 whether we had men in that camp. He didn't only ask about my unit; he

Page 18510

1 asked about all the other units, too. He wanted to know whether we had

2 any of our men who were being trained there. He wanted to know whether

3 any of our men had come from that camp. This was an oral request.

4 In Bijelo Bucje and Ravno Rosto, the combat came to an end around

5 the 24th or the 26th. The 7th Muslim Brigade went to the Visoko

6 battlefield on the 1st of July. Here I'm referring to a document dated

7 the 5th of July. Since there was no one in the battalion command who

8 could use a signature or stamp - I'm referring to myself and my deputy -

9 as a result, there was no reply to this document up until the 19th of

10 July. And here I stated that we didn't have any such men. We didn't have

11 men who had attended such training. And we didn't know what sort of units

12 were concerned up there.

13 Q. You said "we have no right to command units in the Mehurici camp."

14 A. Yes. On a number of occasions they insisted on knowing whether we

15 had men up there, whether we had a unit or a squad up there, or whether we

16 could command them, et cetera, et cetera. So it was quite clear that

17 there was nothing we could do because they weren't part of our forces,

18 they weren't under our command.

19 Q. You said that General Alagic put this question to the other

20 commanders.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are those other commanders of brigades or units?

23 A. Other brigade commanders. And I believe that at the time they

24 were the commanders of municipal staffs, too. The same question was put

25 to them. Because of the connotations that camp had, there were young men,

Page 18511

1 combatants who wanted to go there and train.

2 Q. Were they all at the same briefing that you attended with General

3 Alagic?

4 A. There was the commander of the 17th Krajina, the commander of the

5 312th, I'm sure about them. The 306th wasn't present because they did not

6 participate in those combat activities.

7 Q. Did you see any foreigners while you were in Zenica, in Travnik?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you have any contact with them?

10 A. Apart from meeting them in the street, on the roads, no.

11 Q. When you met them in the street, did you ever talk to them?

12 A. No, never.

13 Q. Mr. Junuzovic, let's go back to the period of time when you were

14 at the command of the brigade. Did you as member of the command in the

15 beginning of June participate in any combat operations that the 7th Muslim

16 Brigade participated in in the area of Ovnak mountain pass?

17 A. Within the framework of the brigade command, I was at the forward

18 command post in the village of Vrselje, and if you consider that to be

19 active participation, in that case, yes.

20 Q. Could you look at the documents marked 1, 2, and 3 in this

21 folder. 1 is a new one, and numbers 2 are P420 and 419.

22 Do you know the document number 1?

23 A. Yes, I'm familiar with it.

24 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what it means with

25 reference to this date, the 5th of June, 1993.

Page 18512

1 A. This is a question which was created on the 4th of June. It was

2 drafted at the operations and training body, and I am the author of the

3 document; I drafted it. And on behalf of commander, we have the signature

4 by Amir Kubura. It is reconnaissance -- command reconnaissance plan for

5 the 5th of June. There is an explanation of what group is going to carry

6 out that reconnaissance mission and the description of their work and

7 their tasks in the two main points in the illustration here.

8 Q. Could you take a look at the next document, number P420. It's

9 number 2 in your folder. Could you take a look at item 2, please.

10 What units participated in these activities in this area?

11 A. In number 1 it is indicated that three detachments of the

12 7th Muslim Brigade were going to participate. So it's the complete

13 2nd Battalion, which at that stage consisted of two detachments. And

14 there was participation of the 3rd Battalion, which was made up of one

15 detachment at the time. And then the 314th Motorised Brigade from Zenica,

16 the company from the manoeuvring detachment, that is to say MUP, and the

17 company from the second part of the defence of Zenica, and the brigade

18 group from the 314th Motorised Brigade. It is a command of the tactics

19 group and the units of that group. It was a formation which was set up

20 temporarily for the purposes of the carrying out of that task only.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like to

22 use a map with this witness. So if you would allow me, we would like to

23 submit the map now -- we would like to show the map to the witness in

24 order to clarify these documents.

25 Q. Mr. Junuzovic, could you take a felt-tipped pen, and if you can,

Page 18513

1 could you please mark on this map where exactly the 7th Muslim Brigade was

2 active in the course of these combat activities for defence purposes.

3 A. According to the order issued by the commander of the tactical

4 group, the main forces were made up of the units of the 7th Muslim

5 Brigade, and they had the task of going from Porice [phoen] and Vrselje

6 and to take the forces to the sector called Crni Vrh, which is this part

7 over here. Crni Vrh was the starting position for attack.

8 Q. Just in order to make it easier for us, could you put number 1

9 there.

10 A. [Marks].

11 And their next task was to attack in the area of Usice and

12 Novo Selo. That was a task assigned to the 7th Muslim Brigade.

13 Q. What you marked right now at the very end --

14 A. The arrow marks the section -- the sector of Novo Selo.

15 Q. Could you draw a circle there and mark it properly.

16 A. [Marks].

17 The second anti-sabotage detachment with manoeuvre company with an

18 attack from the direction of Konjevici in the direction of Grahovcici.

19 And members of the 314th with the municipal defence staff were attacking

20 Crnjac from sector of Krnjaki [phoen].

21 Q. Could you tell us when exactly these activities started in this

22 sector.

23 A. They had been planned for the 7th of June, presumably, but due to

24 certain errors in communications and the fact that we could not prepare

25 the positions on time, we were not prepared, and so we delayed it until

Page 18514

1 the 8th. And in the morning of the 8th, the battalion carried out the

2 task successfully so that by noon we arrived at Ovnak.

3 Q. So just to clarify, this is the 8th of June, 1993?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where was the 3rd Battalion at that time?

6 A. The 3rd Battalion was a reserve battalion for the 2nd Battalion.

7 Basically to a certain extent they were involved in combat activities, but

8 only once fighting started in the sector of Novo Selo itself, when

9 fighting broke out in town, house to house basically. Up until that time

10 there was no need for them to be involved, for the 3rd Battalion to be

11 involved.

12 Q. On a number of occasions I mentioned Ovnak and you did, too, in

13 your answers. What is Ovnak?

14 A. Ovnak is a mountain pass on the road from Zenica to Nova Han Bila

15 in the direction of Travnik.

16 Q. Is it a village? Is it inhabited?

17 A. I don't think so.

18 Q. Could you look at it on the map?

19 A. As far as I can tell, on the basis of my experience of map

20 reading, Ovnak is only shown as a mountain pass.

21 Q. Could you take a look at the document which is marked number 14 in

22 your folder.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's a new

24 document that the Defence got from the federal statistics office in

25 Sarajevo. And we would like to determine what exactly Ovnak is and can

Page 18515

1 the answer be based on this document.

2 Q. Could you just read out the first sentence.

3 A. "We are informing you on the basis of your request that an

4 inhabited settlement, Ovnak, does not exist either in the territory of the

5 municipality of Zenica or Travnik."

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

8 whether this could be the right time for a break since it's 3.30.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay. We shall have a break now

10 and we'll start again at five minutes to 4.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.28 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can resume. The Defence team

14 has the floor.

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Mr. Junuzovic, could you tell the Trial Chamber whether members of

17 the 2nd and the 3rd Battalion when it came to these combat activities ever

18 entered the village of Brajkovici.

19 A. They didn't.

20 Q. I would like to put the same question with regard to the village

21 Grahovcici.

22 A. Members of the 2nd and the 3rd Battalion, if you think in terms of

23 the entire formation, did not, except for some reconnaissance platoons who

24 had to be in front of their battalions in terms of combat security.

25 Q. What about the village of Susanj?

Page 18516

1 A. The village of Susanj was complete deserted and it was not

2 included in any sort of combat activity. So it had not been planned for

3 the units either to go through there nor did any units receive any tasks

4 there. There was some threats, but they thought that maybe they should

5 check out whether there were any enemy soldiers there, but basically for

6 all intents and purposes the village was deserted.

7 Q. You did say in the course of your testimony that these combat

8 activities were completed on the 8th of June, in the afternoon of the 8th

9 of June, if my understanding is correct?

10 A. They were completed in the sector of Novo Selo, that is to say,

11 the mountain pass Ovnak -- I mean, I know this myself. I saw the

12 commanders of the 2nd and the 3rd Battalion there at noon, and we did not

13 go any further. So it was around noon. And individual combat operations

14 continued until early afternoon, no later than 4.00 p.m., and I think

15 there were a couple of snipers there. And there was a bunker at the end

16 of Novo Selo, and combat operations for these two or three buildings

17 continued for a couple of hours more.

18 Q. After the end of combat activities, if all that was over in the

19 afternoon, that is to say 4.00 p.m., what happened afterwards?

20 A. As far as I know, the brigade command received the order to move

21 in the direction of Kakanj, and they were told that they should start

22 engaging in combat activity in the municipality of Kakanj. In order to do

23 that, I myself and a number of commanders from the staff left that

24 afternoon. First of all we went to Zenica, and afterwards we went to

25 Kakanj, and we were received by the then member of the operations group

Page 18517

1 Istok, Mr. Nehru Ganic, and that was when night fell more or less.

2 Q. Excuse me, I need to interrupt you. When exactly did you leave

3 the area of Ovnak?

4 A. In the afternoon of the 8th of June.

5 Q. Who else went to Kakanj with you on that day?

6 A. I do know that apart from the driver and one escort I had the

7 chief of ABiH services, Ibrahimagic Edin, and the artillery chief Durmis,

8 I think, and the commander of the reconnaissance company of the brigade,

9 and a part of the logistics staff as well, some officers from logistics.

10 On the 9th of June we were at Kakanj. On the 9th of June I went

11 back to Zenica with those same officers to get the necessary documents for

12 the upcoming combat activities. I do know that some parts of brigades --

13 of the brigade of Ovnak certainly left the area in the afternoon of the

14 9th of June. When I say "parts," what I mean was those who were behind,

15 the logistics, the anti-aircraft defence liaison, anything that had to do

16 with a lot of technological and technical support, they had all left.

17 Q. When exactly, for what period did the members of the 2nd and 3rd

18 stay in Ovnak and then when did they leave, and did they go to Zenica or

19 Kakanj?

20 A. In that area, in that area of Ovnak, the brigade did not stay

21 after the afternoon hours of the 9th of June. It was for the following

22 reasons. The units had to rest and they had to prepare for Kakanj, and

23 they first of all had to organise and carry out the transport operation to

24 Kakanj. And our aim of all this was to organise transport to Kakanj and

25 not even to reach the outskirts of the city itself. The units were not

Page 18518

1 supposed to enter the city or enter the sector of the railway station,

2 which is at the very entrance to the city or the bus station which is

3 there as well. Our aim was to imperceptibly bring our forces to the area

4 of Kakanj. If you want to achieve that sort of effect, it requires a

5 great deal of time.

6 Q. Could we clarify that. You said that the members of the 2nd and

7 3rd Battalion arrived to that area on the 7th of June?

8 A. They arrived on the 6th, in the late afternoon.

9 Q. And they left on the 9th of June?

10 A. No later than the afternoon of the 9th of June.

11 Q. You mentioned earlier on that the chief of artillery, Durmis went

12 with you to Kakanj?

13 A. I can't remember.

14 Q. Durmis, Ibrahim.

15 Mr. Junuzovic, in that period of time when the members of the

16 7th Brigade were in that area, did you hear about any looting or

17 destruction of any property? I would like you to take a look at the

18 document number 7 in your folder.

19 A. I'm familiar with this document.

20 Q. Could you have a look at item 4 and comment on this report. It

21 was sent to the 3rd Corps command. Is that correct?

22 A. I'll first read through it and then I will provide you with

23 your -- with my answer. "Individual cases of burning and destruction of

24 property in the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade zone of responsibility did

25 occur after the combat operations, but after the end of combat operations

Page 18519

1 the members of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade were transferred from the

2 region of Ovnak to the region of Zagradje Kakanj. So any destruction

3 after that end of combat operations cannot be the responsibility of the

4 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade."

5 In response to one of your questions, I have already said that

6 there was fighting that went on until the late afternoon because a few

7 snipers remained there and, I know that there was also a machine-gun nest.

8 Naturally, when you have such fighting in inhabited places, there are

9 ricochets, sporadic shooting, and properties are inevitably damages,

10 houses and roofs. There was such damage, that's for sure, and there was

11 such damage on both sides.

12 After we left, naturally we couldn't assume responsibility. We

13 were responsible if there was any -- for buildings that had been set on

14 fire or damaged after we left. But since I lived in the municipality of

15 Zenica in the settlement called Police which is on the old road from

16 Zenica to Sarajevo, that is on the left bank of the Bosna River. There

17 are three settlements near my settlement, and up until the summer of 1993

18 the majority of the population in those settlements was Serbian. They

19 left in May, April, or June, when I wasn't in Zenica.

20 On the 5th of July I arrived in Zenica -- and what am I trying to

21 say? Well, in November the town of Jajce fell, and 70 or 80 per cent of

22 the refugees from there arrived in Zenica municipality. The municipal

23 Territorial Defence Staff and the municipal authorities tried to find

24 accommodation for these people in abandoned Serbian houses. But I know

25 that there were individual cases of looting. For example, roofs were

Page 18520

1 looted, or rather the tiles, and carpentry in those houses. These are

2 Bosnians who were in those places. There was probably looting in the

3 sector of Ovnak. And this occurred in November. It was raining at the

4 time already. It wasn't summer, so you couldn't just cover the windows

5 with a sheet of nylon, a sheet of plastic.

6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 34,

7 line 19, when I --

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think this is what I colleague

9 is going to say now. That if he doesn't say that, I will intervene

10 because there was some confusion as far as the question and answer is

11 concerned.

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] On page 34, line 13, when I

13 asked the witness whether he was familiar with the name of the chief of

14 the artillery of the 7th Muslim Brigade, since earlier on the surname

15 Durmis had been mentioned, the witness said that his name was Ibrahim.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to make

18 sure that the transcript is quite precise, my colleague has just said that

19 he asked the witness a question. He asked him whether he knew his name;

20 that's page 34, line 16. But this question that the lawyer put to the

21 witness was not entered into the transcript. And then in line 18 the

22 witness first said "I cannot remember." That was entered into the

23 transcript. And then he entered Durmis, Ibrahim. This part of the

24 witness's answer was erroneously entered on line 19 as a new question put

25 by Defence counsel. That's not the question; that's not where the

Page 18521

1 question started. The question started at line 20. So in order to be

2 quite clear, and in order to distinguish between the question and the

3 answer, I think that it was necessary to correct this part of the

4 transcript.

5 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] To make sure that everything is

6 clear, I will repeat my question.

7 Q. Do you know the name of the chief of the artillery of the

8 7th Muslim Brigade commander?

9 A. His name is Ibrahim and his last name is Durmis.

10 Q. Mr. Junuzovic, since you said that the members of the 7th Muslim

11 Brigade had started leaving the sector on the 9th of June, could you have

12 a look at the documents in the bundle of documents. Could you have a look

13 at the documents under tab number 5 and under tab number 6. And could you

14 first tell us whether you recognise these documents and who drafted them.

15 A. This is a commander's reconnaissance plan for the 10th. I drafted

16 the document, but someone else signed on my behalf. But this is my

17 handwriting. It was authorised by the Chief of Staff. It concerns carry

18 out reconnaissance of new operation zones.

19 In one item reference is made to the composition of the groups

20 that will be involved in reconnaissance, and it also refers to their tasks

21 and the time that they will spend on carrying out these tasks. It

22 concerns the area of Kakanj municipality.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

24 this is DK23 [realtime transcript read in error "DK34"].

25 Q. Could you tell me when this document was drafted?

Page 18522

1 A. It was drafted on the 9th, in the evening. It was drafted in the

2 evening hours after midnight. The Chief of Staff, Amir Kubura, signed it

3 between 7.00 and 8.00. How is it that I know this? Because I went home

4 at 6.00 to deal with certain private matters, so the documents that had

5 been prepared and that related to reconnaissance, the documents that I

6 left with the other operations officers, and their task was to have Amir

7 Kubura sign them and to have these activities carried out on that day.

8 Q. Could you have a look at the left upper-hand corner.

9 A. I approve, I approve the Chief of Staff, as I have already said.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence counsel, in line 1,

11 page 34, there's a reference to DK34. Wasn't there a mistake? Is that a

12 mistake?

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

14 document concerned is DK23. It must have been mistakenly recorded,

15 erroneously recorded in the transcript.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Kubura signed as Chief of Staff of the 7th Muslim Brigade here

19 on the 10th of June, 1993?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Could you have a brief look at the following document, DK24. Do

22 you recognise this document and what sort of a document is it?

23 A. This is an order for an attack from the command of the 7th Muslim

24 Mountain Brigade. This order was issued. In the left-hand corner it says

25 when it was issued, or rather when it was forwarded to the battalion

Page 18523

1 commanders. It was at 1000 hours on the 11th of June, 1993. It

2 says: "Be ready to attack by 1000 hours on the 12th."

3 Q. This document DK24 refers to an order, is an order, an order to

4 attack in the Kakanj area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Does this concern the period that you mentioned when the

7 7th Muslim Brigade left the Ovnak sector?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Please have a look at the last page of this document. Who signed

10 the document and how did Mr. Kubura sign?

11 A. The Chief of Staff, Amir Kubura, signed it as the Chief of Staff,

12 not as the commander.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to move

15 on to another subject now, but first of all I have two questions that

16 relate to the time that the witness was the brigade commander.

17 I would like to repeat one question because on page 17, line 16,

18 the answer was perhaps unclear. My question to the witness concerned the

19 time when Mr. Koricic left the brigade.

20 Q. When he left the brigade, who signed the brigade documents and in

21 what capacity?

22 A. The documents were signed by Amir Kubura in the capacity of Chief

23 of Staff. Most of the documents refer to the commander Asim Koricic.

24 There are individual documents where reference is made to the Chief of

25 Staff, Amir Kubura.

Page 18524

1 Q. Thank you very much. And I have one more question that wasn't put

2 to the witness -- that hasn't been put to the witness yet.

3 When you were in the brigade command and you had the role that you

4 already mentioned, did you attend briefings in the brigade command?

5 A. After Ahmet Zubaca went to Travnik, after the 16th of March, yes,

6 I did attend those briefings.

7 Q. At those briefings, was the subject of the music school ever

8 raised?

9 A. No. Not at the time nor when I was the battalion commander. The

10 music school was frequently mentioned in counts in the indictment and

11 elsewhere. Mr. Talic Nesib who was then the assistant commander for

12 security never mentioned that there had been problems in the music school.

13 With regard to the music school, I'll provide you with an example.

14 At some time in summer 1993, a member of my battalion was detained in that

15 music school because he was inebriated. The men in that music school

16 didn't allow me to visit that man as the battalion commander.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 Mr. Junuzovic, I would now like to move on to another subject. At

19 the beginning of November 1993, were you in the town of Vares and did you

20 participate in the combat around the town of Vares?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What duties did you perform at the time?

23 A. I was the commander of the 2nd Battalion -- of the 1st Battalion.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since we would

Page 18525

1 like to use a map in relation to this subject, again I don't think it will

2 take long, with your leave, I would like to show this map to the witness.

3 Q. Mr. Junuzovic, could you first tell us on the 4th of November,

4 1993, were you in Vares?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber how it is that you or your

7 members from the 1st Battalion were before Vares or in the town Vares

8 itself?

9 A. Well, initially the plan was that the brigade should start

10 engaging in combat on the 3rd, but since there were transport

11 difficulties, we didn't have fuel to transport the brigades, we didn't

12 have fuel for jeeps, lorries, and for the other vehicles that we had.

13 Given these problems, it was not until the 3rd in the early morning that

14 the brigade command managed to obtain some diesel fuel for a diesel

15 locomotive. So the entire brigade - the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Battalion - was

16 transferred, was taken to this place -- you can't see it in the map. It's

17 settlement near the town of Visoko. As they were taken there by train.

18 Afterwards -- well, there were buses waiting for us in Visoko, and

19 we were driven to the village of Malo Cajno. According to the plan these

20 buses were to take us as far as the village of Strijezevo. I'll point to

21 its location here. We had been taken to the Malo Cajno sector, and the

22 plan was to be taken to the village of Strijezevo by bus. But because

23 there was shelling, because Malo Cajno and this part here were being

24 shelled, part of the brigade managed to get through to Strijezevo and the

25 other part didn't manage to reach that point, so most of the men from the

Page 18526

1 brigade arrived there on foot.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear Defence counsel's

3 question.

4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. How far is Cajno from Strijezevo?

6 A. If you take the forest path, if you have a look at the pass marked

7 here, it's between 20 and 25 kilometres away, but the guides that we had

8 been assigned got us there in three to four hours. It was late in the

9 afternoon on the 3rd that we arrived there.

10 Q. Could you mark the location of the villages of Cajno and

11 Strijezevo on this map. Could you do so with the felt-tip, please.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. And could you mark the village of Cajno with number 1 and mark the

14 other location with a number 2.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. What's the distance between these two villages, just to make sure

17 that everything is clear?

18 A. According to the map, 25 kilometres.

19 Q. Did your battalion go there on foot?

20 A. Yes, my battalion did, but I personally did not.

21 Q. What happened upon arriving in the village of Strijezevo?

22 A. Well, since we arrived there in the late afternoon we heard that a

23 plan -- there was a plan for an operation that the 7th had to carry out.

24 Units of the municipal staff from the Vares municipality had carried out

25 that task to a certain extent. So we didn't comply with the plan that had

Page 18527

1 been issued, not completely.

2 Q. Could you please have a look at document under tab number 9.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

4 this is a new document.

5 Q. Do you recognise this document?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Is it the order for attack that you referred to?

8 A. Yes, it is, but there had been a change. It was a matter of using

9 my battalion in the main line of attack. So this is according to the

10 document that we have in front of us, but it did not happen that way

11 because some fighters who were within the 2nd Battalion were from the

12 municipality of Vares. I don't know, they were either born or living

13 there, so it was decided that this same task, somewhat modified -- well,

14 the order did not include the already -- the lines already taken by the

15 units I had mentioned before.

16 So there were the following changes: The 2nd Battalion was

17 interested with the task in relation to entering the city of Vares to the

18 left with regard to the road from Breza. I'm going to mark it by 3. What

19 I mean is the 2nd Battalion.

20 The 3rd Battalion was interested with the task of going from the

21 sector of Budozelji to the city of Vares. I myself with my battalion was

22 reserve battalion and I was in this sector. In the sector called

23 Pajtov Han.

24 Q. Can you mark it?

25 A. Yes, I can.

Page 18528

1 Q. Were there any combat operations in the city itself or around the

2 city?

3 A. The entire time after we received orders to move on and carry out

4 that task, I was talking about Thursday here, the 4th, since it was a

5 relatively unknown terrain, and I especially mean from the point of view

6 of my own battalion, the 3rd one, and it was raining and there was a lot

7 of fog in the morning, and we could only move very slowly. Because we did

8 not know where exactly the enemy lines were, whether there were any enemy

9 lines there. We only found out later that there were none. And

10 especially in those mountain and wooded areas. At some point in the

11 morning, at around 8.00, the 2nd and the 3rd Battalion and the

12 reconnaissance platoon from my battalion met, entering Vares at Majdan,

13 and us, the three battalion commanders met there. So by 10.00 a.m., all

14 three of us got there.

15 The 3rd Battalion found it a bit more difficult to make progress

16 because they had to go through the villages of Mir and Stupni Do. Prior

17 to that, in the month of October, a massacre was perpetrated against the

18 Bosniak population in that area, and it was believed by then the UNPROFOR

19 forces had taken out all the survivors as well as all the dead bodies.

20 But we heard that they came across a couple of more dead bodies in that

21 area, and so they started to do some work there. And the 3rd Battalion

22 also found it difficult because they had constant threats and the

23 possibility of being attacked by the Serb aggressors, by Chetniks.

24 And the 2nd Battalion found it very difficult to move ahead

25 because they were going through dense forests. I was in Pajtov Han, and

Page 18529

1 MUP was in charge of the checkpoint there. And the entire battalion was

2 redistributed over an area of a couple of kilometres.

3 So we started the whole operation at some point at around 4.00

4 p.m., and by 8.00, the first units, the reconnaissance detachments, got to

5 Vares Majdan.

6 Q. I asked you this question earlier on. Was there any combat

7 activity at the entrance to the city or within the city?

8 A. Yes. There were no major battles. The battalions did not fight

9 enemy formations as such, but there was fighting with regard to snipers

10 and other such elements. What I mean is this sort of fighting.

11 Upon entering the city, it was still rather foggy. And you

12 couldn't see very far, perhaps five to 600 metres. And afterwards later

13 on, at around 10.00, when it became light, we noticed that a couple of

14 buildings, afterwards it turned out it was just one building which had

15 been set alight, but it was not set alight due to combat activities. And

16 I suppose -- well, there was nobody else in front of us at least in as far

17 as the direction from Breza is concerned, there were no other formations

18 there. And the MUP officers entered the city at the same time. I mean it

19 could have been proven by the fact -- well, we were told, no, no, no,

20 let's stop, and we don't know what's going to happen there. And then they

21 said, no, the city has been deserted and we want to set free the people

22 who had been imprisoned in the primary school. And then we could see

23 their comings and goings in their vehicles. But there was no major combat

24 activity.

25 Q. Did you yourself enter Vares?

Page 18530

1 A. I did not go any further than Vares Majdan.

2 Q. Could you tell us exactly where it is, Vares Majdan.

3 A. Number 6.

4 Q. Did anybody else enter Vares Majdan with you?

5 A. I'm sure of the commander about the 2nd battalion. As to the

6 commander of the 3rd Battalion he had some problems because battle was

7 still ongoing and possibility of movement -- look, Vares is a town which

8 is in a valley and it has one main street which is relatively flat, but

9 it's open and visible. And there's always possibility of snipers or some

10 other type of attack from the right-hand side which is not inhabited and

11 there are forests there.

12 Q. Did members of your battalion, those who were there, enter there?

13 A. Only my reconnaissance platoon was with me because there was no

14 need for anyone else, because according to my orders I was not asked to

15 bring any more forces because we were in reserve. And alongside the 2nd

16 and the 3rd Battalion, well, basically I was two kilometres behind them.

17 So there was myself and several members of my command, and there was this

18 reconnaissance platoon.

19 Q. How many soldiers are we talking about?

20 A. No more than 30.

21 Q. You and the members of your reconnaissance platoon, how long did

22 you stay at Vares?

23 A. No longer than late afternoon. The situation was as follows, and

24 I'm talking about my own battalion right now: On that afternoon I was

25 asked to the forward command post in Zvijezda. It was an urgent call and

Page 18531

1 I was given a new task there.

2 Q. We'll come to that. But you stayed in the town of Vares only

3 several hours as far as I could gather?

4 A. Yes. And there was a lot of police and a lot of UNPROFOR forces

5 in town.

6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, page 46, line 20,

7 should read Vares Majdan.

8 Q. In that period of time when you were at Vares Majdan, the members

9 of this reconnaissance platoon, did they notice any destruction of any

10 buildings or any lootings carried out by members of your battalion?

11 A. Not with regard to members of my battalions.

12 When I give you the following answer what I have in mind is this:

13 We didn't notice when we came in that that building was on fire. It was a

14 kilometre or a kilometre and a half away from us. I had a very small

15 formation, very few men, and I could keep them under control and I could

16 check exactly what everyone was doing. But as time was passing on that

17 day, 10.00, 11.00, 12.00, other soldiers came along. In the last analysis

18 there was the general population as well. That period of time is

19 well-known for being a period of famine in Central Bosnia, especially in

20 Breza, Zenica, Vares. I myself on that day did see civilians carrying a

21 sack of flour, for example, and civilian police could do nothing about it.

22 They would say, Okay, you can kill me but I'm taking this sack of flour

23 back home because my family is going hungry.

24 Q. Was there a checkpoint entering Vares?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18532

1 Q. Who was in charge of it?

2 A. That checkpoint from part of Han had been moved to Vares Majdan.

3 MUP forces did.

4 Q. Did they check the comings and goings?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Earlier on you started talking about how you were assigned a new

7 task in the afternoon, so I would like to answer that question now. And

8 in order to make things easier, could you take a look at document

9 number 10.

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

11 this is a new document, Mr. Chairman.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an order to attack, referring

13 to my battalion only. I was given orders orally late at night at around

14 9.00 p.m. on the 4th at the village of Strijezevo, and it is about the use

15 of my battalion in the direction of Dastansko. It is about a task, the

16 goal of which it was to prevent surrendering that area that was between

17 the HVO forces and the Serb aggressors, because that would mean that the

18 city of Vares and its destiny would be put into question, and therefore

19 the connections and the road across the mountain of Zvijezda and direction

20 of Tuzla, there would be a real danger for that road to be blocked off.

21 And that area of broader Tuzla would be basically be isolated with no

22 communications at all. And so I was given those orders with that goal.

23 And so on the 5th of April, at around 4.00 or 5.00 I took my

24 entire battalion to our own sector of origin. And in the morning of

25 the 5th between 8.00 and 10.00 we made preparations with regard to this

Page 18533

1 task within the battalion. And at 10.00 we went from Strijezevo by bus in

2 the direction of Bijelo Borje.

3 Q. This order to attack, is it with regard to the 5th of November?

4 A. Yes, the 5th of November. The preparedness was achieved at

5 2.00 p.m. At five minutes to 2.00, I was told to stop any activities

6 whatsoever. Since I suspected that it did not come from the Chief of

7 Staff, Amir Kubura, I asked for a coded confirmation to suspend our

8 operations.

9 After about five to ten minutes, I got that, it had been

10 confirmed, and I also got a message according to which the units of the

11 2nd Corps were to carry out that task.

12 Let me just add at this stage, with regard to the question you

13 asked earlier on and the answer I gave to you earlier on as to why we did

14 not enter Vares. Because of fog. Because there was this real danger of a

15 conflict amongst our own units. Because from the mountain of Zvijezda

16 there were units of the 2nd Corps coming from the direction of Vares, so

17 there was no need for us to go any further than Vares Majdan.

18 Q. Since this order to attack was with regard to the 5th of November,

19 let me ask you whether you or the members of the 1st Battalion entered

20 Vares at all?

21 A. No. We could not enter Vares at all because we had a very short

22 period of time available, and I only had that day available in which to

23 carry out the task, the combat task I had been assigned.

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to the

25 witness to be shown another map. This is a map we obtained by going

Page 18534












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18535

1 through the army archives. We have already talked to our colleagues from

2 the Prosecution with regard to the use of that map, and they did not have

3 any comments. And this is with regard to the 5th of November, 1993, and

4 the way in which this battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade was used.

5 Q. Do you recognise this map, sir?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Who drew it up?

8 A. The then-assistant of the Chief of Staff for operations and

9 training, Saban Zunic. This is his signature. Vares on the 4th of

10 November, that's when it was made.

11 Q. Does this map illustrate the activities or possible combat

12 activities that should have taken place on the 5th of November, 1993?

13 A. Yes, fully.

14 Q. According to this map, the task of your battalion would have been

15 to engage in combat activity in the sector of the village of Dastansko?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you show this on the map? Don't mark this because it belongs

18 to the archives. This is the original and we will be tendering it later

19 on.

20 Just a couple more questions, Mr. Junuzovic. After the 5th of

21 November what happened then? When did your battalion leave this sector

22 and where did you go to?

23 A. Late in the afternoon on the 5th we went to our own sector of

24 origin and the battalion went back on the 6th. On the 6th, in the

25 morning, we left the sector of the village of Strijezevo.

Page 18536

1 Q. In what way?

2 A. In the same way we came. At that stage there was already a

3 possibility to travel by bus all the way to Visoko. And then from Visoko

4 we took the train to Zenica. And on that day, the 6th in the afternoon,

5 people for the first time were asked to go on leave by -- on foot because

6 there was no transport organised.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] And this concludes the

9 examination-in-chief. I have no further questions. As to maps that were

10 shown to the witness, perhaps after the cross-examination the witness

11 could sign them.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine then.

13 Usher, could you please go and get the map so I can take a look at

14 it. No, not that one.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does General Hadzihasanovic's

17 defence have any questions?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We do

19 have several questions.

20 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Junuzovic, in replying to questions of my

22 learned friend you said, if I may put it this way, that you were a

23 participant in the battles at the mountain pass of Ovnak in June 1993. Is

24 that so?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18537

1 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Junuzovic, since previously as well as you

2 could show us in a document you were involved in some reconnaissance, is

3 it correct that HVO prior to that, since the month of May, had powerful

4 strongholds in that area?

5 A. Yes, they did. When I mentioned that we had certain problems in

6 carrying out these operations, that is to say, combat activities should

7 have started for that tactical group that had been set up, they were

8 supposed to start on the 7th, but to a certain extent they had been

9 suspended due to problems with regard to liaison and artillery support.

10 And when it comes to the artillery support, what I mean is our inability

11 to neutralise their positions. Any attempt to start carrying out these

12 operations -- well, we did try on the 7th, but we encountered a great deal

13 of resistance. We thought that it would be a rather easy task, but then

14 it had to be postponed until the next day.

15 Q. Also in answering another question put to you by my colleague you

16 said that when you reached Novo Selo, only then the company of the

17 3rd Battalion joined you, since you then practically started

18 house-to-house fighting in town. Do you remember that?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Junuzovic, that when entering and starting this

21 house-to-house fighting, as you called it, that you basically encountered

22 the fact that almost in every house there were members of the HVO forces,

23 armed members of those forces, and that you had to fight from house to

24 house?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 18538

1 Q. Thank you. Let me put to you another question. I would like to

2 clarify a couple of issues in relation to the previous questions asked by

3 my colleague, and it has to do with your arrival to Travnik on the 17th of

4 June. You said that when you arrived you first wanted to check out the

5 situation within your battalion. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were faced with a situation in which parts of your own

8 battalion due to the blockade by the HVO in the preceding period were

9 scattered around in different places. You mentioned Poculica they were

10 under the command of the 325th and so on and so forth. Is that so?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Junuzovic, in conjunction with that did you have a full

13 overview of the general combat situation in that area, the area in which

14 there were parts of your battalion? Were you able to see yourself how

15 they found themselves in, for example the 306th Brigade?

16 A. As to this brigade, I know they were in a very difficult position

17 indeed, because every time I went to Travnik or I went from Travnik to

18 Zenica I had to go through their area of responsibility, and the newly

19 established lines in the direction of the HVO were in that area. What I

20 mean in first place is the section -- the sector of the village of Mosor

21 and to a certain extent the village of Alihodze. These two places in

22 particular I know about because I travelled through them on my way to

23 Travnik. And I do know they had difficulties with that front line at

24 Vlasic because earlier I had been a member of the 314th, and on one

25 occasion I was involved in work at the defence lines, and my neighbour

Page 18539

1 basically to the left was the 306th Brigade. And after I took over this

2 battalion I often met and encountered the members of the 306th Brigade,

3 and I do know that they found themselves in a very difficult situation

4 indeed. Basically it was a brigade which was set up in that -- it

5 included the inhabitants of the villages in the areas, and I know that

6 they had problems with communications. There was only one telephone line

7 at the brigade command, et cetera.

8 Q. Thank you. You also said that by the end of April you should have

9 gone to Travnik, but due to this blockade such a proposition could not go

10 ahead. Up until the point in time when there was a proper link between

11 Zenica and Travnik. Is that so?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell me, please, once these communications had been

14 established and as a commander of the battalion which in that area also

15 had some members, in the course of that period of time did you see the

16 large-scale movements of the population which due to this blockade, this

17 isolation, was moving between Travnik and Zenica?

18 A. Yes. I'm going to quote one example here. This matter of food --

19 flour, basically. Was kind of critical and there was some promises or

20 indications that there might be some flour at Bugojno. And quite a number

21 of people from Zenica, from Mehurici, and this whole group of villages in

22 the valley of Bila and Travnik set off to look for it either on foot or on

23 tractors, and so on.

24 Q. Thank you. Considering this overall blockade and arms embargo,

25 what about this matter of weapons and shortage of ammunition? Was it

Page 18540

1 something that most commanders were particularly worried about in this

2 period in 1993?

3 A. Yes. We kept wondering about how we could do anything if we only

4 had 5, 10, 15 bullets in a weapon or if, as was our case in the

5 3rd Battalion where in the summer of 1993 there were about 500 fighters

6 there, and only about 20 or -- 200, sorry, and 220 weapons.

7 Q. Could you take a look at this document that you have in front of

8 you, number 4, and I'm going to ask you one more question and this will

9 conclude my counter -- my cross-examination.

10 This is a document which is basically an order, amongst other

11 things, an order directed at the 1st Battalion of the 7th Brigade, even in

12 the period before you joined it you became familiar with this only after

13 your arrival to Travnik. But since you were a student at the military

14 academy and later on as the commander you participated in this war, can

15 you agree with me if I say that at the bottom of the page where it

16 says: "Commencing of artillery support at 4.20 hours and commencing of

17 attack at 4.30" that this in fact represents something which is far below

18 the minimum level of artillery support for the activity of any battalion,

19 that is to say, the minimum time is half an hour of artillery support, and

20 what we have here, what is indicated here is just 10 minutes. And this is

21 precisely the result of the inability for you to have any more than that

22 because you did not have any artillery to speak of. Can you agree?

23 A. As far as I can see, the command of the OG Bosanska Krajina did

24 not really, apart from my company because we had about a hundred, they

25 took three battalions from the 17th Krajina, and it is about the size of a

Page 18541

1 brigade. And the minimum amount of time for preparations for a brigade is

2 about 30 minutes. And on average they would have to shoot at least twice

3 from every weapon. What he mentioned here, he said the combined artillery

4 division, but it never went beyond 90 per cent [as interpreted] of all the

5 means we had. So this is the bare minimum.

6 Q. And does it confirm what you said, that you had no weapons to

7 speak of in order to engage in this sort of combat activity?

8 A. The artillery preparation of any company I think would have to be

9 longer.

10 Q. Could you take another look at this. The first indent where it

11 says the 1st Company --

12 A. No, the 1st Battalion.

13 Q. Yes, the 1st Battalion of the 17th Krajina Battalion -- or rather

14 Brigade. Says that the 107-millimetre mortar would be used and 10 shells

15 would be used. Can you agree with me that if I say that the normal use of

16 this weapon in this sort of situation would mean 1.500 rockets and that 15

17 rockets is next to nothing?

18 A. I'm first of all going to answer to your question about mortars.

19 It says that they have got ten mines and that ten mines are being

20 approved.

21 Q. Just a moment. On page 55, line 22 -- 23, rather, you said that

22 it was 50 per cent, and in this transcript it says 90 per cent. So I

23 would just like to have this corrected.

24 Q. Please continue. I apologise for interrupting.

25 A. The usual combat set for 120-millimetre mortar consists of 34

Page 18542

1 shells. So this means this is a third. I'm speaking about one mortar.

2 And as far as the 107-millimetre launcher is concerned, yes, that's also a

3 minimum. You don't go below this number. And in fact if you use 15

4 rockets, that no longer has any sort of effect because you're using the

5 forces of one brigade, three battalions, and more, and if you use 15

6 rockets, well -- and ten shells, well, you can do that in ten minutes.

7 And what do you do for the rest of the day? If you engage your forces

8 there will be no possibility of providing them with support.

9 Q. My last question is: This document that you've just been shown

10 quite clearly shows the type of equipment that army units had. This is

11 quite clearly referred to in the document dated the 9th of June, 1993. Is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Prosecution.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Junuzovic. My name is Daryl Mundis, and along

19 with my colleagues here we represent the Prosecution in this case. I have

20 just a few questions for you, sir. But let me start with this document

21 that my learned colleague from the Hadzihasanovic Defence just showed you.

22 I understand, sir, when you're talking about 107-millimetre

23 launcher and 15 rockets having no effect, you're talking about in terms of

24 standard military use of that weapons system. Would you agree with me?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18543

1 Q. Because certainly if you were on the receiving end of 15 rockets

2 having been launched from 107-millimetre launcher, whether it was one

3 rocket coming in at you, or two, or seven, or nine, or 12, that very well

4 might have an effect on you as an infantry soldier, on the receiving end?

5 A. Not necessarily. And when I say "not necessarily," I say so

6 because these shells and these rockets weren't standard types. And

7 sometimes their effectiveness was diminished 100 per cent. They were made

8 in makeshift workshops, in factories where the men had no experience.

9 Because this is equipment used in 1993. The last time that standard

10 equipment was produced in the central Bosnian area was in March 1992.

11 Q. Let me turn, sir, to the campaign to liberate, for lack of a

12 better term, Vares. In early November when your battalion was in

13 Vares Majdan, can you tell us where the commander of the 7th Mountain

14 Brigade, Amir Kubura, was physically located?

15 A. Which day? Which date are you referring to?

16 Q. Well, let's start with to the best of your knowledge and

17 recollection --

18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19 I don't have an objection, just a technical comment. I'd just

20 like to ask the witness not to make any markings on the original map.

21 There are the two other maps that he could mark.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But with the pointer he could

23 indicate the location.


25 Q. Witness, if we could just start with at the time the 7th Muslim

Page 18544

1 Mountain Brigade commander, Amir Kubura, arrived in the immediate vicinity

2 of Vares, can you tell us the approximate date and time and the location

3 where he was to the best of your knowledge and recollection?

4 A. On the 3rd in the evening he was in the village of Strijezevo, on

5 the 3rd.

6 Q. And, sir, did you as a battalion commander, the commander of the

7 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, did you meet with the

8 brigade commander, Amir Kubura, on the evening of the 3rd in Strijezevo?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were the other battalion commanders also present at that meeting?

11 A. Yes, they were.

12 Q. Following that meeting on the 3rd of November, when was the next

13 time you saw the brigade commander and where?

14 A. On the 4th in the same building in the same village. I was issued

15 a task that had to do -- carry out combat activities planned for the 5th.

16 Q. And on that occasion, sir, on the 4th, when you saw and spoke with

17 the brigade commander, did you see him at any other point on that day?

18 A. I saw him in the late afternoon on that day, when I arrived in

19 Strijezevo.

20 Q. So you met with him in the morning and then you saw him again in

21 the late afternoon. Did you see him at any other point on the 4th of

22 November, 1993?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. How about on the 5th of November, 1993, did you see the brigade

25 commander, Amir Kubura, on that day, and if so where?

Page 18545

1 A. I didn't see him on that day. If you exclude the afternoon when I

2 arrived in the village of Strijezevo. But I do know that in the

3 Vares Majdan sector he had a meeting with the chief of the municipality.

4 Q. And, sir, can you tell us how far approximately Vares Majdan is

5 from the centre of the town of Vares?

6 A. Two to three kilometres away.

7 Q. And if you were leaving Vares and heading south along the road,

8 you would pass through Vares Majdan?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. On the 6th of November, 1993, did you have any meetings with the

11 brigade commander, Amir Kubura?

12 A. I can confirm that I met on the 6th, but only in the evening hours

13 in Zenica. I don't remember having seen him on the 6th in the morning,

14 let's say.

15 Q. Okay. So when you say "on the 6th [realtime transcript read in

16 error "4th"] of November in Zenica," would that be back at the 7th Muslim

17 Mountain Brigade headquarters?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us, sir, about the discussions that you --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] There's a mistake on page 60,

22 line 11, of the transcript when my colleague asked a question it concerned

23 the 6th of November, not the 4th of November.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. I was in fact talking about the 6th.

25 Q. Just so we're clear, sir, when you say that you met with the

Page 18546

1 brigade commander on the 6th in Zenica, you were in fact referring to the

2 6th of November, 1993 at the headquarters of the 7th Muslim Mountain

3 Brigade in Zenica?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Now, sir, can you tell us on those occasions when you met with the

6 brigade commander prior to units of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade

7 entering the immediate vicinity of Vares, including Vares Majdan, what

8 were you discussing? Did those discussions concern combat plans and

9 orders and operations and how those operations were to be carried out?

10 A. As far as the Vares operation is concerned, the situation between

11 the brigade commander and battalion commanders was confused. Why? For

12 the following reasons: We had planned to carry out the operation in one

13 way, and we hadn't planned to enter the town. However, the Vares

14 municipal staff probably decided independently and part of the Kakanj

15 municipal staff units also probably took an independent decision. And the

16 lines that had been established up until then, they believed that they

17 could carry this out on their own. They started doing this on the 3rd.

18 So our problem was how to continue with our operation. And naturally, on

19 the 3rd we discussed how to carry out the entire operation.

20 Q. With respect, sir, to the units, whether they were brigades or

21 companies of brigades, of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, who issued the

22 orders with respect to the campaign concerning Vares?

23 A. A starting point had been assigned in the order issued. The

24 2nd Battalion practically took over my role and they advanced on the left

25 side. But in that morning, no one thought it was necessary to issue

Page 18547

1 orders of any kind. We just followed the order that related to changing

2 the lines reached, and that's what the units did that day.

3 Q. I don't believe, sir, that my question was clear, but you've

4 mentioned the Vares municipal staff and the Kakanj municipal staff units.

5 Let me ask you the same question in a slightly different way. The

6 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Battalions of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, were they

7 receiving orders from the brigade commander, Amir Kubura, or were they

8 receiving orders from either the Vares municipal staff or the Kakanj

9 municipal staff?

10 A. From the brigade commander.

11 Q. So throughout the time period, sir, that your battalion was in the

12 area Vares, you were receiving orders from the brigade commander, Amir

13 Kubura. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you were reporting back on activities of your battalion to

16 Amir Kubura?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, sir, can you recall at any point in time after or during the

19 withdrawal from Vares whether the subject of looting was discussed with

20 the brigade commander, and I'm talking about looting concerning soldiers

21 of any unit of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

22 A. I don't understand the question. I don't understand the part in

23 which you asked me whether someone spoke to him. You have to ask me about

24 a particular person.

25 Q. Well, I'm -- I'd like to know at any meeting of the brigade

Page 18548

1 command while you and the other battalion commanders and the brigade

2 commander and the brigade staff were still present in the area of Vares in

3 the first few days -- first six, seven days of November 1993, whether you

4 were ever present at any meeting in which the subject of looting by

5 soldiers of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade or any of its subordinate

6 units was discussed?

7 A. There was a discussion immediately after the events in Ovnak.

8 This is a document that we have here. We had been accused, or rather they

9 had said -- there were accusations that individual members of the 7th had

10 been involved in looting. I know that the insignia of the 7th Muslim

11 Brigade had been abused. We had insignia that would be worn on our

12 shoulders, and I know that quite frequently thieves who weren't members of

13 any unit would wear uniforms and would wear this insignia. And we were

14 most frequently accused for their acts, especially after Ovnak.

15 As far as Vares is concerned, accusations were made only later on,

16 after we had left the area. I know that these rumours were spread for

17 about 10 or 15 days, but I don't understand how someone can accuse us of

18 having engaged in looting since on the 6th we all left the area of Vares

19 municipality and then the 2nd Corps units took charge of the town. There

20 were discussions, though.

21 Q. I appreciate your answer, sir, but my question again: Did you --

22 I take it the answer is no, but did you have any discussions or were you

23 present at any meetings of the senior leadership of the 7th Muslim

24 Mountain Brigade in the immediate vicinity of Vares in the first week of

25 November 1993 in which the subject by looting of soldiers within the

Page 18549

1 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade was discussed?

2 A. A discussion was held, and at the discussion, that meeting, it was

3 stated that looting was strictly prohibited.

4 Q. After the unit -- after the brigade withdrew to the Zenica area,

5 you've told us about meeting with the commander, Amir Kubura, on the 6th

6 in Zenica. At that point in time or shortly thereafter were you present

7 at meetings of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade in which the subject of

8 looting by members of that unit in the area of Vares was discussed?

9 A. We discussed that subject on the 6th and afterwards.

10 Q. Sir, can you recall any of the specific discussions that were held

11 concerning looting by soldiers of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade in Vares

12 which were attended or meetings which were attended by the commander of

13 the brigade, Amir Kubura? Do you recall any of the specifics?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Let me ask you this, sir, it's a bit unclear to me so I'll ask you

16 this question: Did any soldiers of any subordinate units of the

17 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade enter the city of Vares

18 proper or the town of Vares proper?

19 A. When I said that I and members of my command entered the town

20 together with my reconnaissance platoon, upon entering the town of Vares

21 or that part of Vares, Majdan -- well, as I said, we were in Vares Majdan.

22 We entered a cafe; it had been abandoned. There was coffee, there were

23 juices, some cakes in the cafe, and we spent three or four hours there and

24 helped ourselves to what we could find. On that day I had a problem with

25 a soldier who had taken 50 kilos of flour, put it on his back, threw down

Page 18550

1 his rifle, and said, I'm going home; my family is starving.

2 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: When you say that you entered the town

3 of Vares or that part of Vares Majdan, did you or any of the soldiers of

4 the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade travel farther north

5 from Vares Majdan into the centrum or centre of Vares town itself?

6 A. Perhaps one of my soldiers went there, but I didn't. I in fact

7 don't really know Vares. So when you ask me about the centre, I don't

8 know what the centre would be in that town.

9 Q. Were you aware, sir, of having attended any of the other meetings

10 with the leaders of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, whether any of the

11 soldiers from the 2rd or 3rd Battalions of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade

12 entered Vares proper?

13 A. Members of the 3rd Battalion entered the town late in the

14 afternoon because there was incessant fighting in the forested part of

15 Vares Majdan. I know that part of the 2nd Battalion also entered

16 Vares Majdan.

17 Q. And when you say, sir, that they entered the town late in the

18 afternoon, can you tell us which day you're referring to?

19 A. I'm referring to the 4th. But this has to do with the meeting of

20 three battalion commanders in an area, the diameter of which was about 500

21 metres. And we stayed there until 4.00 in the afternoon at the latest.

22 When I said that they entered late, I mean that it was between 1.00

23 and 2.00.

24 Q. Again, sir, you've mentioned soldiers or members of the

25 3rd Battalion -- the 2nd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade

Page 18551

1 entering Vares Majdan. Do you know or did you become aware from

2 attendance of meetings of the command whether any of the soldiers of the

3 2nd and 3rd Battalions of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade travelled

4 further north from Vares Majdan into Vares itself?

5 A. Well, they probably advance further.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. I'm about to move

7 into a different subject that I think will take us a little bit longer

8 than five minutes. It is the last area. I expect I only need about 10 to

9 15 minutes to complete.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And how much do you believe you

11 will need afterwards?

12 MR. MUNDIS: 10 to 15 minutes, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 It's 5.25 and we will resume at about 10 to 6.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. Witness, I reviewed my notes. I did have a couple of follow-on

20 questions and then we'll move on to my last subject.

21 But this map that you have to your right showing the campaign in

22 and around the area of Vares, you told us who was the person who actually

23 made that map. And I'm wondering if you can again tell us that person's

24 name.

25 A. Saban Zunic. On this time on the 4th and 5 he was the assistant

Page 18552

1 Chief of Staff for operations and training.

2 Q. And when you say "assistant Chief of Staff for operations and

3 training," that was within the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, sir, the place that's marked on the map and that you've told

6 us about several times, Strijezevo, was there in fact a forward command

7 post, an IKM, of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade at that location in early

8 November 1993?

9 A. There was a forward command post of the 7th Muslim Mountain

10 Brigade in the village of Strijezevo.

11 Q. And, sir, you've told us that that location is the one where you

12 met with the brigade commander, Amir Kubura, in early November 1993. And

13 I'm wondering if you can tell us how many other members of the 7th Muslim

14 Mountain Brigade staff were present at that forward command post in the

15 first few days of November 1993?

16 A. There was the brigade commander, Amir Kubura, the deputy

17 commander, Halil Brzina. The Chief of Staff Serif Patkovic wasn't there.

18 There was the assistant Chief of Staff for operations and training, Saban

19 Zunic. There was the assistant commander for logistics, Azar Bektas. As

20 for the others, I'm not sure whether it's necessary for me to mention

21 their names.

22 Q. That's fine. Would it be fair, sir --

23 MR. MUNDIS: I see my learned friend is on his feet.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

Page 18553

1 think there's an error in the transcript. When -- the witness said that

2 the Chief of Staff wasn't there, whereas the transcript states the

3 contrary.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Let me --

5 Q. I'll clarify that, sir.

6 To the best of your recollection, the Chief of Staff Serif

7 Patkovic was not present at the forward command post in Strijezevo in

8 early November 1993. Is that correct? He was not there to the best of

9 your recollection.

10 A. He wasn't there.

11 Q. Okay. Would it be fair to say, sir, that the persons who were

12 there represented a significant portion of the senior leadership of the

13 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Let me turn then, sir, to the final topic I'd like to discuss with

16 you.

17 You told us earlier this afternoon, this is reflected in the

18 transcript at page 16, lines 14 through 20, you told us, sir, that the

19 commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade in the first few months of

20 1993, Asim Koricic, left at some point in the beginning of April 1993. Is

21 that correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. Sir, do you know where Mr. Asim Koricic went when he left at the

24 beginning of April or in the beginning of April 1993?

25 A. Not officially. I do know where he went in a private capacity.

Page 18554

1 Q. Can you elaborate on that answer for us, sir?

2 A. I know that he left - and this is what others have told me - he

3 went to visit families, or his family in Austria at the time.

4 Q. Now, sir, you told us also that in the fall of 1993, I believe you

5 said September, you again saw Mr. Asim Koricic. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. From the time period, sir, that Asim Koricic left in the beginning

8 of April 1993 until the time period when you next saw him in September

9 1993, Amir Kubura was responsible for day-to-day operations of running the

10 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. Would you agree with that?

11 A. Officially, yes.

12 Q. And in fact, sir, in the first week of August 1993, Amir Kubura

13 was formally appointed as the commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain

14 Brigade. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. At any point in time after he left in April 1993, did -- until the

17 end of the war as far as you know, did Asim Koricic perform the duties of

18 commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

19 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

20 Q. After the time that he left in the beginning of April 1993 until

21 the end of the war, did Asim Koricic exercise command functions with

22 respect to the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

23 A. No.

24 Q. At any point in time after he left in April 1993 until Amir Kubura

25 was appointed formally as the commander in August 1993, were you aware of

Page 18555

1 any orders for the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade issued by Mr. Asim Koricic?

2 A. On the 9th of December, I was handing over the duties of commander

3 of the battalion to Mr. Adilovic in Travnik, and I know that on that day,

4 the 9th of December, except for me there was also Ahmet Adilovic who was

5 the then-assistant commander for morale -- well, there was also Semir

6 Terzic who handed over as an operations officer and an officer from the

7 intelligence service. So Asim Koricic left to go to the Travnik battalion

8 together with these people.

9 The formal command, in the legal sense of the word, was in the

10 hands of Enver Adilovic, as far as that particular battalion was

11 concerned. But the real role of commander and the real orders were being

12 issued by Asim Koricic all the way up until mid-February when that same

13 battalion was used to set up a separate brigade.

14 The reason why they left the brigade and the reason why they left

15 to Travnik, my own personal opinion is this about the whole story: I do

16 know that there was some obstruction on his part when he was issuing

17 commands within the brigade especially at that time. I also know that

18 Ahmet Adilovic as assistant commander for morale often misused the stamp

19 and the possibility of signing documents. And one of the reasons for

20 their departure in the same way -- and there's something else I have

21 forgotten to say. In the same period of time, on the 9th of December, the

22 assistant commander for security Nesib Talic also handed over his duties.

23 The reason for their departure -- his departure as well, was that

24 it was finally discovered what was going on at the music school. There

25 were certain indications and more or less proof that this person never

Page 18556

1 reported to the commander and that he misused the stamp, the possibility

2 to sign documents, and his own position, and that he was always covering

3 things up.

4 So when you asked me whether he was a commander, yes, but Asim

5 Koricic was the commander of that battalion from the middle of December to

6 the middle of February, 1994.

7 Q. Okay. Let's go back and start with the question that I actually

8 asked.

9 After April 1993, were any command functions with respect to the

10 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade being carried out by Asim Koricic?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You've told us, sir - and I believe this is at page 40, line 7 -

13 that after the 16th of March, 1993, you attended the briefings or daily

14 meetings or regular meetings of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. After the 16th of March?

17 Q. I believe that's what the answer, as reflected in the English

18 transcript said, on page 40, line 7.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At these meetings of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade that you

21 attended after the 16th of March, 1993, who presided over these meetings?

22 A. Amir Kubura, Halil Brzina, and Ahmet Adilovic, depending.

23 Q. And that would depend on whether Amir Kubura was present, would it

24 not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18557

1 Q. Because if Amir Kubura were present as the senior-most de facto

2 commander, he would be presiding over meetings of the 7th Muslim Mountain

3 Brigade. Isn't that right?

4 A. Yes, that's right. But according to his position he was the

5 highest ranking. But these powers had never formally been handed over to

6 him. Was it simply about the departure of Asim Koricic? I don't know. I

7 mean, I suppose I have to say the following here. Since we are talking

8 about the brigade commander here and there was a war on and he had left

9 the country, never mind where he went, Croatia, Slovenia, Austria, it

10 doesn't really matter. But the approval to leave the country should have

11 been granted by the then-supreme command staff. Nobody within the brigade

12 knew of such an approval having been granted by anyone.

13 The brigade had to continue to exist and to continue to do their

14 job, and this is something you can see on the basis of this document. The

15 battalion was at Travnik without any commander, and they were engaged in

16 combat activity. And it was reflected on the situation in other

17 municipalities, Zenica, all the way through the Kakanj and Vares.

18 Q. But, sir, that's actually -- you've actually hit on my very point.

19 In a military unit, there's always someone who's in charge, whether it is

20 based on a piece of paper or it's based on being the most senior officer

21 present. Isn't that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And after Asim Koricic left in the beginning of April 1993, the

24 Chief of Staff, Amir Kubura, took over as the commander of that 7th Muslim

25 Mountain Brigade?

Page 18558

1 A. He took over only by the beginning of August. That's when he

2 actually became commander. Up until then, he was the Chief of Staff and

3 he signed everything as the Chief of Staff and also on behalf of Asim

4 Koricic.

5 Q. But he was exercising the functions of the commander of that

6 brigade, was he not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you, sir, at any point in time receive any instruction or

9 order or directive from any higher authorities such as the 3rd Corps that

10 you were to disregard any orders or documents signed by Amir Kubura

11 because he wasn't authorised to sign such documents of the 7th Muslim

12 Mountain Brigade?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you, sir, at any point after Asim Koricic left in November or,

15 excuse me, in April of 1993, did you ever have any contact from

16 Mr. Koricic, whether by telephone or fax or by letter saying, in effect,

17 Amir Kubura is not in charge, don't follow any orders that he issues?

18 A. I myself never did.

19 Q. Did you hear, sir, of anyone else in the 7th Muslim Mountain

20 Brigade having any such communication from Asim Koricic?

21 A. I don't know. But I do know that he was in touch with some senior

22 officials.

23 Q. When you say, sir, "senior officials," who were you referring to?

24 A. Ahmet Adilovic.

25 Q. And his role within the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade was what?

Page 18559

1 A. He was the assistant commander for morale.

2 Q. And religious affairs?

3 A. No, just information and propaganda.

4 Q. Based on the information that you have, were any other senior

5 officials, as you put it, in contact or communication with Asim Koricic

6 during the period of time that he was out of the country after the

7 beginning of April 1993?

8 A. Officially I don't know. I know things based on private

9 statements by the aforementioned Adilovic, that he was in touch with him,

10 but that he actually contacted officially anyone in the brigade, I do not

11 know of it.

12 Q. When Mr. Koricic returned to Central Bosnia in late 1993 or the

13 autumn or winter of 1993, did he remain in Central Bosnia after that

14 period of time?

15 A. He stayed in Bosnia.

16 Q. Do you know, sir, or are you aware of whether Mr. Asim Koricic

17 suffered any negative consequences as a result of being out of Bosnia for

18 a number of months in 1993 when he was still the formal commander of the

19 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

20 A. As far as I know, no.

21 Q. So you're not aware of any instance where he was disciplined or

22 subject to any kind of prosecution or administrative action for being out

23 of the area of responsibility for his brigade for many months in 1993?

24 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

25 Q. Thank you, sir.

Page 18560

1 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Additional questions.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Re-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Just a couple of short questions.

6 Mr. Junuzovic, you said that Mr. Kubura in the beginning of August

7 was made commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When Mr. Kubura was made commander, the Chief of Staff was also

10 appointed for the 7th Muslim Brigade. Do you know who it was?

11 A. Yes. Within the framework of the same order, the appointment was

12 made for the post of commander, deputy commander, and the Chief of Staff.

13 The commander was Amir Kubura, the Chief of Staff -- or rather his deputy

14 Halil Brzina, and the Chief of Staff, Serif Patkovic.

15 Q. We're talking about three -- people were three establishment

16 duties?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you got to Travnik, did soldiers ask you about Mr. Kubura?

19 A. Yes, they did. After my arrival to Travnik -- well, for about two

20 months they had no real contact with the brigade except for brief

21 telegrams through the operations group, Bosanska Krajina. They asked me

22 where Asim Koricic was, where he had gone to, when he was coming back, why

23 did he leave. They asked about who the new commander was, and I used to

24 reply that there was no commander. But Amir Kubura as Chief of Staff was

25 there, and then they asked questions about him, who he was, where he came

Page 18561

1 from, and that sort of questions.

2 Q. Did they know of Mr. Kubura?

3 A. They did not.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 Just to clarify matters with regard to questions put by my learned

6 colleague of the Prosecution, did you yourself see any kind of looting or

7 the destruction of property during the time that you were at Vares?

8 A. As I said in reply to the question put to me by the Prosecution,

9 what happened to me was that I saw one of my fighters grabbing a sack of

10 flour, dropping his gun in front of me, and taking off in the direction of

11 Breza. I don't know whether anyone else could have taken a bottle of oil

12 or put something in their pockets or their rucksacks. I don't know. It

13 may have happened.

14 Q. In this bundle of documents that you have in front of you, could

15 you take a look at document number 11, also 12 and 13. Document number 11

16 is P478. Could you tell me who signed this document; do you recognise

17 this signature?

18 A. This is the signature of Saban Zunic.

19 Q. Is it the same person who drew up and signed the map that you were

20 looking at earlier on?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Does this order ban all members of the 7th Brigade from entering

23 the city of Vares?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you take a look at the next document, number 12.

Page 18562

1 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

2 this is the document P449.

3 Q. And I would just like you to look at item 4, or indent 4, starting

4 on arrival to settlements, et cetera, inhabited settlements. Have you

5 found it, on arrival, et cetera?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Have you read through this passage?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell us who signed this document?

10 A. It was signed by the commander of the 3rd Corps, Mehmed Alagic.

11 Q. Is it visible on the basis of this document if you read through

12 the text of paragraph number 4?

13 A. Should I read it out?

14 Q. Well, you read it for yourself and then you can comment, so as not

15 to waste any time.

16 A. As to the 7th Muslim Brigade, he is referring to the fact that

17 looting and the carrying off of goods was prevented thanks to the

18 intervention of the military police and the 7th Brigade.

19 Q. Thank you. One more document, please. It is number 13, and it is

20 P450. The date is the 17th of November, 1993. Could you read through it

21 and comment on it very briefly?

22 A. This comes from the supreme command staff and the commander's

23 office, and it's signed by the deputy commander Jovan Divjak. And it is

24 addressed to the command of the 2nd Corps and the 3rd Corps for

25 information. The Ministry of the Interior has sent the armed forces

Page 18563

1 supreme command staff document number 014190 of the 16th of November,

2 1993, which informed us that on the 16th of November, 1993, a 2nd Corps

3 unit of, according to the MUP document, about 300 troops entered the city

4 of Vares. And after arrival of that unit, individual cases of stealing

5 and looting began.

6 Q. Was the 7th Brigade in the area of Vares at that time?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

10 Mr. President.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Junuzovic, is it correct that the supreme command staff

13 appointed commanders of brigades as acting commanders, and the commanders

14 were appointed by the Presidency?

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you are taking the floor as

16 part of the cross-examination or are you just asking additional

17 questions?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you. Since we should

19 have come in earlier, this question is not all that essential. Perhaps we

20 will come back after the Judges' questions. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. I have a couple of

22 questions of military nature strictly speaking to put to you.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In replying to questions earlier

25 on, you had said that when there was an action there was a reconnaissance

Page 18564

1 platoon which checks out the area ahead of the rest of the troops. Could

2 you specify who exactly made up that reconnaissance platoon?

3 A. Primarily, if you think in a terms of a regular army, you would

4 have the soldiers who are trained primarily for such reconnaissance tasks,

5 who have been trained to gather certain data or who have good eyesight and

6 good hearing and are experienced fighters. And you don't need to

7 necessarily appoint people with a great deal of combat experience. Since

8 such units are not primarily intended to engage in combat activity but to

9 simply check out the area and gather as much data as possible and to

10 locate the enemy positions and to provide that data to the relevant

11 commands, to their superiors.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could it happen occasionally

13 that that reconnaissance platoon also includes members of military police?

14 A. As far as I know -- well, I myself have not seen that in practice.

15 I mean, we have not normally included such people in those platoons, but

16 it may happen.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In replying to one of the

18 questions at a certain point you dealt with the matter of fires in the

19 course of combat operations. As far as you know, these units, fighting

20 units, for example your battalion, did they own any incendiary devices or

21 ammunitions or any fire launchers?

22 A. My battalion did not have those and we did not have any ammunition

23 which was likely to lead to the setting of any materials alight. Since

24 this was a larger-calibre weaponry we are talking about, and we did not

25 have that available.

Page 18565

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, in that case how do you

2 explain that in the course of those combat operations there were certain

3 houses being set on fire? How could it happen technically speaking if you

4 did not have any incendiary devices yourself?

5 A. In my statement, Your Honour, I only mentioned fire once in

6 relation to the city of Vares. And as to Ovnak I said that there was

7 damage done to buildings due to rifle or machine-gun ammunition. When our

8 units entered Vares, they did not engage in any combat activity, we did

9 not open fire of any sort, especially not using grenade launchers or

10 Howitzers and that could have been possible -- in that case, it could have

11 been possible to set that building on fire.

12 And as to the area of Ovnak, I simply said that in the course of

13 these combat operations in an inhabited settlement, buildings necessarily

14 get damaged because people shoot from behind corners, house corners, from

15 rooftops, through windows, from the stables or what have you.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me move on to another topic.

17 In replying to one of the questions earlier on you said that at a

18 certain point at the music school there was one of your soldiers who had

19 been detained there because he was drunk and you could not go and see him.

20 For what reason, since you were a battalion commander, did you not have

21 access to one of your soldiers who was -- one of the soldiers of your

22 battalion? Could you perhaps clarify that. What obstacles did you

23 encounter?

24 A. Since I thought that it was my duty to punish that soldier and

25 that he should undergo a regular disciplinary procedure, I thought it was

Page 18566

1 not necessary for him to be detained but that he should be sent to

2 barracks in Travnik and that disciplinary measures should be imposed. So

3 in my attempt to exempt him basically from this sort of treatment, first

4 of all I was not allowed in, and afterwards when I talked to Mr. Talic he

5 allowed it, I mean he relinquished the soldier. He sent him back to my

6 battalion. But I was denied access because they said he was detained

7 because of drunkenness and that required a more complex disciplinary

8 procedure, and apparently as a battalion commander it was not within my

9 area of competence.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like you to take a look

11 at the document prepared by the Defence, the document number 2. In the

12 upper left-hand corner on the first page, what can you see? What does it

13 say? "1700 hours, the 5th of June, 1993." What's marked above that

14 reference?

15 A. The command, in inverted commas, it says tactical group.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is a tactical group? Could

17 you inform us -- could you provide us with information about this tactical

18 group?

19 A. Within the military -- well, for example, you have a case you are

20 dealing with here and that in the military organisation you have platoons,

21 companies, battalions, and then brigades. Of course in an army a tactical

22 group is a formation that is not a permanent formation; it is established

23 only for the purposes of carrying out a given task.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And who has the power to

25 establish a tactical group?

Page 18567

1 A. In this case I think that it's a superior body, a body superior to

2 the 7th Muslim Brigade. All authority was transferred to the 7th Muslim

3 Brigade. They were given the authority to create such a group.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Could you have a

5 look at document number 9, please.

6 In the upper left-hand corner there is a stamp. What does the

7 stamp say?

8 A. It says military unit number 5083. Strictly confidential document

9 number 1220/93. The date is the 3rd of November, 1993, in Zenica.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you have a look at the

11 last page of the document and could you have a look at the stamp next to

12 Amir Kubura's signature. What does the stamp say?

13 A. It says "military unit, 5083, Zenica."

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is this military unit,

15 5083?

16 A. It's another name for the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade

18 had another name then?

19 A. Not another name. It's the same in terms of military

20 organisation. Apart from the names of brigades that are assigned, if you

21 compare this to the way other armies are organised, you can have various

22 names. You have regiments in Britain, and they have letters that they use

23 as designations or numbers or the names of a town or a region, I'm

24 referring to Great Britain. But in our country, units would first be

25 allocated a number. In this case the 7th Muslim Brigade had the number

Page 18568

1 5083, military unit 5083.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for that information.

3 Could you go back to the first page and could you tell us who this

4 document was addressed to? I can see that in your language it says

5 "komandant." Could you tell me who this document was addressed to?

6 A. This document is called "planned for commander reconnaissance for

7 the 5th of June," and it's addressed to --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read out the two first

9 lines, and I can see that in your language it says "komandant" and then it

10 says the 7th Brigade. We're still referring to document number 9.

11 A. Your Honour, could you please repeat that?

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have a look at document number 9

13 and could you tell me who this document is addressed to? It should be on

14 the first page.

15 A. Not necessarily. The procedure followed in our offices was such

16 that the addressee might only be mentioned on the last page, and that is

17 the case in this document.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But I can see on the first page

19 that it says "komandant." Who is the document addressed to? I'm not

20 talking about the last page; I'm talking about the first page. Because in

21 English the translation states that it's to the 7th Muslim Mountain

22 Brigade commander. I want to make sure that this corresponds to what it

23 says in B/C/S.

24 A. Yes, it does correspond to the B/C/S.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 18569

1 I would like to deal with the map that you have before you, and my

2 last questions will relate to this map.

3 Could the usher please adjust the map on the ELMO to make sure

4 that we can see the name of the person who made the map. That's at the

5 top. There we are.

6 So at the top we have the date, the 4th of November, Vares, and I

7 can see that it also says Saban. Is that the person that you mentioned

8 who was the deputy in charge of operations. Is that correct?

9 A. He was the assistant Chief of Staff.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He was the assistant Chief of

11 Staff. With the transcript -- according to the transcript you said that

12 he was the deputy in charge of operations. When it says the 4th of

13 November, 1993, does that mean that the markings on the map were made on

14 the 4th of November, 1993?

15 A. Yes. That's what it means.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Could you then

17 translate, or rather could you tell us what it -- what "radna karta

18 komandanta" mean? What does "radna karta komandanta" mean?

19 A. This map was made to be a form of support for the written order I

20 was issued with. In principle it's not always necessary to issue a

21 written order if a given task has to be carried out. In this case, the

22 commander could have made use of this map without having put anything down

23 in writing, without having drafted a written order, and I would have known

24 exactly what to do.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, sir. Who wrote

Page 18570

1 down "1400 hours, the 5th of November." And I'll read out what it says

2 in your language: "Pocetak, 1400 hours." Who wrote that down?

3 A. Probably Saban Zunic.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what does that mean? He

5 signed on the 4th of November. Is he providing an account of the

6 situation on the 5th of November? Because what we can see after --

7 further below, does that refer to the situation, 1400 hours on the 5th of

8 November?

9 A. He made this map on the 4th of November. He made it for the

10 attack that was to commence at 1400 hours on the 5th of November.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We can have a look

12 as to what has been noted on the right. What can we see on the right?

13 A. It says "vojna tajna," it says military secret, strictly

14 confidential, and we have the code name below.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this military operation of

16 the 5th of November had the code name EL1F. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What else is being

19 marked in black capital letters? As far as I can remember, it also said

20 "komandant" at the bottom to the right. That's correct. My memory is

21 quite good. Who wrote that down?

22 A. Saban Zunic.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And why did he write this name

24 down? Does it mean that the map was to go to the commander, Amir Kubura?

25 What is the meaning of this reference to commander Amir Kubura?

Page 18571

1 A. In this case, this was to be the commander's working map; that's

2 what it says. My copy was only to contain reference to myself as the

3 addressee. It shouldn't have said "working map."

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As the battalion commander, did

5 you have a copy of this map?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And my very last question: Does

8 this mean that when there is a military operation, one necessarily has

9 such a map?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But when you do have such a map,

12 is there a reference to all the units that are present in the field?

13 A. Usually, no.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's no reference to the

15 units involved?

16 A. Units are referred to only if it concerns them, and if it concerns

17 units who are being assigned a task in relation to the map that is made

18 for them.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we can see --

20 Mr. Usher, could you adjust the map so we can see the units involved in

21 the action. Very well.

22 We can see 1MBB, so that is the 1st Battalion which is engaged in

23 action. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So when there is a military

Page 18572

1 action, one refers to the theoretical advance of the units engaged in

2 combat in the field?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And I'll now conclude. The

5 forward post where it says 7M, 1MBB, is that the forward command post?

6 Could you point to it?

7 A. [Indicates].

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the reference to the left,

9 what does it mean? To the left there is a little flag with a triangle.

10 A. This little flag here stands for the forward command post of the

11 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And to the left,

13 what does that sign stand for?

14 A. It stands for my command post.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's your post. So how is it

16 that we know that the 1st Battalion that will advance toward the positions

17 to the right, whereas your post is behind the forward command post? How

18 do you explain that? Wouldn't the situation usually be the other way

19 around?

20 A. You have -- you are right. There was probably a mistake made

21 here.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that we have a mistake there,

23 because in theory you would be in front of the brigade command?

24 A. No, no. The way my forward command post has been depicted is what

25 was the mistake. It shouldn't have been marked there.

Page 18573

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where should your post have

2 been?

3 A. It should have been marked with the unit's symbol. It should have

4 shown how it was advancing in accordance with the plan.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You told us that you

6 were in Vares Majdan. Is that correct? You didn't enter Vares. You were

7 in a place that is just before Vares?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you point to the location,

10 could you point to the place where you were?

11 A. [Indicates].

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 We have another 15 minutes. Do -- are there any other questions

14 that either of the Judges would like to ask?

15 Yes, we have some other questions for you.

16 JUDGE SWART: I have only one question on a document that you have

17 seen that is number 9 in your map of documents. Could you take it -- I'm

18 sorry. I apologise. I meant to mention number 7.

19 In this document the 7th Brigade is defending itself against

20 allegations of looting and burning of private property, and we have

21 discussed paragraph 4 of this document and you have confirmed the content

22 of what is said there, you left the area after the battle.

23 I'm interested now in putting you a question on point 3 of the

24 same document. It says: "The most illustrative example of our members

25 attitude towards property is the church in Brajkovici and the monastery in

Page 18574

1 Kraljeva Sutjeska which have not been touched."

2 This afternoon I heard you saying, and hence my question in

3 response of a question of the Defence counsel for Mr. Kubura that your

4 brigade -- the 7th Brigade and your battalion did not enter Brajkovici.

5 So there seems to be a contradiction between what you said this afternoon

6 and the content of point 3 of the -- this document. And could you help me

7 out?

8 A. When I answered that question, I didn't say that my battalion was

9 there. During this period, I was not the battalion commander but I was a

10 member of the brigade command, and I was present in the Ovnak area. I

11 know that on that very same day UNPROFOR and EU monitors visited

12 Brajkovici and the church referred to. I know that there were rumours

13 according to which it hadn't been damaged. They filmed and photographed

14 the building, et cetera.

15 JUDGE SWART: That's right. But you've said on page 30 -- 31 and

16 the beginning of page 32, the question of counsel for the Defence is the

17 following: "Mr. Junuzovic, could you tell the Trial Chamber whether

18 members of the 2nd or the 3rd Battalion, when it came to these combat

19 activities, ever entered the village of Brajkovici?"

20 And your answer is: "They didn't."

21 Now, this document seems to suggest that they were present there

22 and that they did not do nasty things to the church in Brajkovici, but

23 that suppose that they have been present there. So could you please help

24 me out there?

25 A. The question had to do with members of the 2nd and 3rd Battalion,

Page 18575

1 and they really weren't down there. After UNPROFOR arrived, a military

2 police platoon, or rather one patrol was sent with them to go to

3 Brajkovici and to check things out. But the army did not go and did not

4 accompany the monitors and UNPROFOR.

5 JUDGE SWART: Thank you. I understand your answer better now.

6 Thank you.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I have just a couple of

9 questions.

10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Mundis:

11 Q. Sir, the map we were talking about that was made by Mr. Saban

12 Zunic only has markings with respect to the 1st Battalion of the

13 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, yet you've told us about the presence of the

14 2nd and 3rd Battalions as well.

15 Just so we're clear, sir: This map was specifically produced for

16 the benefit of you as the 1st Battalion commander. Is that correct?

17 A. It was made for the commander. It was to serve as his working

18 map, as you can see from the title, and it only concerned the engagement

19 of my battalion.

20 Q. Okay. There may or may not have been similar maps for the 2nd and

21 3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. Is that right?

22 A. I doubt that that was the case for that day.

23 Q. Okay. But my point is, sir: We shouldn't conclude based on

24 looking at this map that the 2nd and 3rd Battalions of the 7th Muslim

25 Mountain Brigade were not in Vares on that day?

Page 18576

1 A. As far as I know. They were supposed to be -- well, the 3rd

2 Battalion was supposed to be in the village of Budozelja, and the other

3 battalion, the 2nd Battalion, was supposed to be in the village of

4 Strijezevo.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. Let me just move on. I think I have one last

6 question.

7 In response to a question by the Presiding Judge about the

8 incident you've told us about, the inebriated soldier of your battalion

9 who was in the music school, I'm curious as to part of your answer, sir.

10 You said page 80, line 14, that you went there as part of an attempt to

11 exempt him basically from this sort of treatment, and that's a quote from

12 page 80. I'm just wondering, sir, if you can tell us, sir, what you were

13 referring to when you said "to exempt this soldier from this sort of

14 treatment."

15 A. It wasn't a matter of the way they acted, it was a matter of

16 competence.

17 Q. Thank you, sir.

18 MR. MUNDIS: No further questions.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

20 just have a few brief questions.

21 Further examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] You've answered my learned colleague's question

23 and said that this map was made for your battalion, the 1st Battalion of

24 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18577

1 Q. I showed you a document under number 10, an order for the 5th of

2 November. And the map made by Mr. Zunic reflects the situation on the

3 basis of this order?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. One more brief question.

6 In response to a question from the Presiding Judge you marked the

7 command post of the battalion. Is that the command post of the battalion

8 that you pointed to -- was that postmarked before the units or the

9 companies of the 1st Battalion set off to engage in combat, before they

10 started moving?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Your command post then followed the movement of units?

13 A. On that day I was in fact in front of them.

14 Q. Thank you. I have one more question that concerns Ovnak.

15 In response to a question from Judge Swart you mentioned the fact

16 that the military police were with the EU monitors and UNPROFOR in front

17 of the church in Brajkovici. Did you have any authority to issue orders

18 to the military police?

19 A. No, I didn't.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have another five minutes --

22 Further cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] With regard to the questions put to you by the

24 Presiding Judge, could you confirm that all the military units --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. The problem that

Page 18578

1 we have is to decide whether you have the right to cross-examine the

2 witness.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's our position because this

4 is not our witness.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you putting a neutral

6 question?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We have a right to

8 cross-examination because this is not our witness.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will deliberate about the

10 matter because this is a problem for the Judges. Try to put questions

11 that are neutral or try to avoid putting leading questions to the witness.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. Please tell me whether all the military units in addition to the

14 names they had also had numerical designations?

15 A. All the units had to have numerical designations for the purposes

16 of communicating with the civilian authorities.

17 Q. In relation to your response to the question as to whether you

18 used incendiary ammunition and in to the question as to whether you had

19 such ammunition in Ovnak pass, you said that you didn't have such

20 ammunition. As you were the commander, as you are a military commander,

21 could you now tell me whether in that area, in the area of Ovnak -- could

22 you tell me whether that area was a village area. Were there stables

23 containing hay and other incendiary material in addition to the houses

24 that were there; that's my first question.

25 And my second question is as follows: In the course of combat, if

Page 18579

1 mortar fire is used, and if there is inflammable material in the vicinity,

2 is it possible for such inflammable material to catch fire and could the

3 buildings in the vicinity then catch fire?

4 A. Well, in that area, in the area of Ovnak, and there are four or

5 five villages that surround Ovnak, in that area there are individual

6 buildings, there are stables, there is hay that is kept there, there are

7 garages, various auxiliary facilities exist there, too, there are cellars

8 and stables, and they are easily -- they can easily catch fire because

9 there is hay kept in them. And this is particularly the case as far as

10 the hay gathered in the fields is concerned. And when you use mortar

11 shells, yes, objects could catch fire.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no other questions.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 As far as the documents are concerned, would you like to deal with

16 them?

17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18 At this point in time could the witness just sign the first and

19 second map that he marked and could he put today's date on the maps.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you put your name down on

21 the maps, sign them, and write down today's date.

22 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're almost running out of ink.

24 And the second one.

25 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

Page 18580

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We've run out of ink. Luckily

2 we will now be adjourning.

3 Defence counsel would like these three maps to be admitted into

4 evidence.

5 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Defence counsel would like to

6 tender the three maps into evidence, the two maps that were made by the

7 witness himself and the third map that he recognised. I don't know if

8 this is the right time, since we have little time left. We have some

9 other documents. Should we deal with them today or at our next hearing?

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, we'll deal with the maps

11 immediately.

12 With regard to the maps, the Prosecution.

13 MR. MUNDIS: We have no objection to the three maps being

14 admitted.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Hadzihasanovic's Defence

16 team?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have

19 three numbers.

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The first map will be given the

21 exhibit number for the Defence DK38. It is a map that shows Vares, the

22 scale of which is 1:100.000.

23 The second map, the scale of which is 1:100.000, also shows

24 Zenica, and the exhibit number for the map will be DK39.

25 And finally, the third map which is a map, the scale of which is

Page 18581

1 1:50.000, entitled Vares 4, will now be admitted into evidence, and the

2 exhibit number will be DK40.

3 Thank you, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the other documents, which

5 numbers is Defence counsel requesting?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, document

8 number 1, dated the 5th of June, 1993; document number 4, dated the 9th of

9 June, 1993; document number 9, dated the 2nd of November, 1993; document

10 number 10, dated the 4th of November, 1993; and document number 14, dated

11 the 5th of April, 2005.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

13 MR. MUNDIS: No objection.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, we need five

16 exhibit numbers very rapidly. Could we have the numbers in English,

17 please.

18 THE REGISTRAR: The first document dated the 5th of June, 1993, is

19 admitted into evidence under the reference DK41, with an English

20 translation DK41/E; the second document dated 9th of June, 1993 is

21 admitted into evidence under the reference DK42, with an English

22 translation DK42/E; the third document dated 2nd of November, 1993 is

23 admitted into evidence under the reference DK43, with an English

24 translation DK43/E; the fifth -- the fourth document dated 4th of

25 November, 1993 is admitted into evidence under the reference DK44, with an

Page 18582

1 English translation DK44/E; finally, the document dated 5th of April,

2 2005, internal reference number 07-329-371/05 is admitted into evidence

3 under the reference DK45, with an English translation DK45/E.

4 I take the floor and while I'm at it, Mr. President, I just wanted

5 to clarify that the document admitted into evidence under seal and

6 confidential today refers to the DH2092. I failed to indicate the exact

7 reference for the sake of the transcript.

8 [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Major, this concludes your testimony. I would like to thank you

11 on behalf of the Judges for having come to testify at The Hague on behalf

12 of Mr. Kubura. And I wish you all the best and a safe return to your

13 country. I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On Wednesday I will provide

16 Defence counsel with information on the two documents that we would like

17 to have, so as not to use up any time today. Tomorrow there won't be a

18 hearing since we don't have a witness. We will be resuming on Wednesday

19 at 2.15. Is that correct?

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you're quite

21 right, Mr. President. We don't have a witness for tomorrow. On Wednesday

22 witness number 16 on our list will be appearing first of all, and we

23 believe that our examination-in-chief won't take very. Long, and it is

24 then our intention to call witness number 17, to commence with his

25 testimony and complete his testimony on Thursday, if possible.

Page 18583

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: Thank you. I invite everyone to return for the

2 hearing that will commence on Wednesday at 2.15.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

5 April, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.