1 Tuesday, 1 February 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.41 p.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 number IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
10 Good afternoon, Witness.
11 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
12 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in
13 accordance with the paper Ms. Usher is showing to you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
17 WITNESS: WITNESS A
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Weiner, are you ready for your examination?
20 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour. But before that, we wanted to
21 tender some exhibits, rather than start and tender them while the witness
22 is speaking -- is testifying. We have agreements on two maps and 85
23 photographs, and we want to tender the photographs in a lump group and the
24 two maps.
25 JUDGE LIU: You mean -- you mean that you have agreement with
2 MR. WEINER: With counsel.
3 JUDGE LIU: Are there any objections?
4 MR. MORRISSEY: No, that matter is agreed, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. If there's no disputes concerning of the
6 admission of those documents, I would like to say that these documents are
8 Are you going to read the number of those documents?
9 MR. WEINER: Yes, I will at this time. We'll start off with the
10 two maps.
11 The first one is from the 65 ter. It's numbered 149. It has an
12 ERN number of 0363-9619. That's the large map behind us, the very large
14 One moment, Your Honour. It's the very large map.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE LIU: [Microphone not activated]
17 Sorry. So the court deputy will inform us about the court
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Prosecution
20 Exhibit P1.
21 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
22 The second map is on -- on the Sanction system. It is the
23 New York Times map of the former Yugoslavia, which is commonly used in
24 cases in this Tribunal. It should be in front of you on the Sanction
25 system. It has a ERN number of 03639617.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P2.
2 MR. WEINER: Next we have photographs. I have the ERN numbers,
3 and there's 85 of them. The first one is 01494608. These are all
4 photographs of Grabovica, Your Honour.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P3.
6 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
7 The next one is 01494609.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P4.
9 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P5.
12 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P6.
15 MR. WEINER: Number 01494612.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P7.
17 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P8.
20 MR. WEINER: 01494614.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P9.
22 MR. WEINER: 01494615.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P10.
24 MR. WEINER: 01494616.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P11.
1 MR. WEINER: 01494619.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P12.
3 MR. WEINER: The next photograph is 01494620.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P13.
5 MR. WEINER: Photograph 01494621.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P14.
7 MR. WEINER: Photograph 01494622.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P15.
9 MR. WEINER: Photograph 01494623.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P16.
11 MR. WEINER: 01494624.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P17.
13 MR. WEINER: Photograph 01494625.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P18.
15 MR. WEINER: 01494626.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P19.
17 MR. WEINER: 01494627.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P20.
19 MR. WEINER: 01494628.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P21.
21 MR. WEINER: 01494629.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P22.
23 MR. WEINER: 01494630.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P23.
25 MR. WEINER: 01494631.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P24.
2 MR. WEINER: 01494632.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P25.
4 MR. WEINER: Photograph 01494633.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P26.
6 MR. WEINER: 01494634.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P27.
8 MR. WEINER: 01494635.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P28.
10 MR. WEINER: 01494636.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P29.
12 MR. WEINER: 01494637.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P30.
14 MR. WEINER: Photograph 01494638.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P31.
16 MR. WEINER: 01494639.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P32.
18 MR. WEINER: Photograph 01494640.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P33.
20 MR. WEINER: 01494641.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P34.
22 MR. WEINER: 01494642.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P35.
24 MR. WEINER: 01494643.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P36.
1 MR. WEINER: Photograph 01494644.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P37.
3 MR. WEINER: 01494645.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P38.
5 MR. WEINER: 01494646.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P39.
7 MR. WEINER: 01494647.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P40.
9 MR. WEINER: 01494648.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P41.
11 MR. WEINER: 01494649.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P42.
13 MR. WEINER: 01494650.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P43.
15 MR. WEINER: 01494651.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P44.
17 MR. WEINER: Photograph 01494652.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P45.
19 MR. WEINER: 01494653.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P46.
21 MR. WEINER: 01494654.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P47.
23 MR. WEINER: 01494655.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P48.
25 MR. WEINER: 01494656.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P49.
2 MR. WEINER: 01494657.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P50.
4 MR. WEINER: 01494658.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P51.
6 MR. WEINER: 01494659.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P52.
8 MR. WEINER: 01494660.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P53.
10 MR. WEINER: 01494661.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P54.
12 MR. WEINER: 01494662.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P55.
14 MR. WEINER: 01494663.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P56.
16 MR. WEINER: 01494664.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P57.
18 MR. WEINER: 0149665.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P58.
20 MR. WEINER: 01494666.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P59.
22 MR. WEINER: 01494667.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P60.
24 MR. WEINER: 01494668.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P61.
1 MR. WEINER: Photograph 01494669.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P62.
3 MR. WEINER: Photograph 01494670.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P63.
5 MR. WEINER: 01494671.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P64.
7 MR. WEINER: 01494672.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P65.
9 MR. WEINER: Photograph 01494673.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P66.
11 MR. WEINER: 01494674.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P67.
13 MR. WEINER: 01494675.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P68.
15 MR. WEINER: 01494676.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P69.
17 MR. WEINER: 01494677.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P70.
19 MR. WEINER: 01494678.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P71.
21 MR. WEINER: 01494679.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P72.
23 MR. WEINER: 01494680.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P73.
25 MR. WEINER: 01494681.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P74.
2 MR. WEINER: 01494682.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P75.
4 MR. WEINER: 01494683.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P76.
6 THE WITNESS: 01494684.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P77.
8 MR. WEINER: 01494685.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P78.
10 MR. WEINER: 01494686.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P79.
12 MR. WEINER: 01494687.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P80.
14 MR. WEINER: 01494688.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P81.
16 MR. WEINER: 01494689.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P82.
18 MR. WEINER: 01494690.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P83.
20 MR. WEINER: 01494691.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P84.
22 MR. WEINER: 01494692.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P85.
24 MR. WEINER: And 0299-2353.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P86.
1 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
3 Well, Witness, I apologise to you for this very boring practice.
4 Frankly speaking, it is something new to me too.
5 And are you ready to answer any questions put to you by
6 Mr. Weiner?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
9 Mr. Weiner, are you ready for any questions?
10 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
11 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.
12 Examined by Mr. Weiner:
13 Q. Mr. Witness, I'd like to show you this sheet of paper and ask you
14 to look at it, please. Sir, on that sheet of paper, it says "Witness A."
15 There's a number "1" there. Is that your name next to number "1"?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. There is a number "2" on that sheet of paper. Is that your date
18 of birth next to number "2"?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And finally there is a number "3" on that sheet of paper. Is
21 that your place of birth next to number "3"?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE LIU: I believe that this piece of paper has to be shown to
24 the Defence team.
25 If there's no objections to this sheet of paper, we'll admit it
1 into the evidence
2 MR. WEINER: May that be held under seal and confidential,
3 please, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. It's under seal and confidential.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P87, under seal.
6 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may proceed.
8 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may we go into private session so I can
9 just bring out a few personal details about the witness. And this will
10 probably be the only time we'll need private session for this witness.
11 For a few minutes.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
13 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
20 Q. Sir, in the year 1993, were any members of your immediate family
21 serving in the military?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were any members of your immediate family wearing a military
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did any of -- any members of your immediate family have a gun or
2 rifle in September of 1993?
3 A. No, not that I know.
4 MR. WEINER: One moment.
5 May the witness be shown P86 on the screen, please.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 MR. WEINER: [Microphone not activated]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 MR. WEINER:
10 Q. Sir, do you recognize that photograph on the screen?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 MR. WEINER: [Microphone not activated]
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. WEINER: Just wait a moment until the Defence gets the
15 photograph on their screen.
16 It will take a few days, Your Honour, to get used to the new
17 system. Sorry about that.
18 Q. Do you recognize that photograph, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what do you recognize that as?
21 A. This is the village of Grabovica.
22 Q. And is that a fair and accurate representation of Grabovica as it
23 appeared in September 1993?
24 A. Well, from this viewpoint, yes. There are a few new buildings
25 built after the war.
1 Q. But in general, is that a fair and accurate representation of the
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the river that runs through the middle, what's the name of
5 that river?
6 A. Neretva.
7 Q. Okay. Now, we'll move on now, but we'll go back to that picture
8 in a while.
9 In 1993, what was the ethnic make-up of Grabovica?
10 A. It was a Croatian village.
11 Q. And the age of the people who lived there, were they mostly
12 families, young people, old people? What was the age of the people that
13 lived there?
14 A. In general, they were older people with families. There were a
15 few children, including my brother, my sister, and me. But for the most
16 part, they were elderly people.
17 Q. Now, in the early part of the year 1993, were there any soldiers
18 guarding that village?
19 A. The Croatian army did guard it, but they changed shifts from time
20 to time.
21 Q. Did they have many soldiers?
22 A. As far as I can remember, there were never very many of them.
23 Q. Now, in the spring of 1993, what happened to the village?
24 A. One morning, at dawn, shooting began. The shooting woke us up.
25 It went on for quite a long time. When it got light, we came out of the
1 house and we could see the road. Then we saw a self-propelled gun going
2 along the road, and then the turret opened and a green flag with a
3 crescent moon and star could be seen. It then became clear to us that
4 Grabovica had been taken by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
5 Q. Of what ethnic group were the soldiers in the Army of
7 A. They were Muslims.
8 Q. And what happened to the small number of soldiers that were
9 protecting the village prior to the Bosnian army taking it over?
10 A. Some were killed and some fled.
11 Q. Now, during the occupation by the Bosnian army between, let's
12 say, April and September, was anyone in your family, immediate family,
14 A. At the beginning, they took my father away because he was
15 middle-aged. They thought he was a soldier. But a few days later they
16 brought him back. Then they took him away again, telling us that they
17 would never bring him back.
18 Q. And was he brought back, sir?
19 A. He was brought back six or seven days later.
20 Q. And did he remain on your farm up to September?
21 A. He was at home all the time.
22 Q. Were there other -- were there any other men at your home during
23 that time, between April and September?
24 A. No, just our family members.
25 Q. So just your father and grandfather.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Other than your father being questioned and then being brought
3 back, was anyone in your family harmed during that period, from the spring
4 to September, to the beginning of September? Was anyone harmed?
5 A. In that period, there was looting. When they came to our house,
6 if they liked something, they would take it away.
7 Q. But was anyone physically harmed?
8 A. No. One night they came at night. They wanted something. I
9 don't know what. But you could hear a lot of noise. That's what woke me
10 up. But then it got quiet again very quickly.
11 Q. Okay. Let's move to September. What happens in September of
13 A. The soldiers changed. I saw three buses - there may have been
14 more, but maybe not - with a jeep at their head. They were full of
15 soldiers. And when they settled in the village, the atmosphere in the
16 village changed. Very often there was shooting, shouting.
17 MR. WEINER: One moment, please.
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
20 Q. You indicated that the atmosphere changed when these new soldiers
21 arrived. Could you explain again how it changed.
22 A. Very often there was shooting. You could hear gunfire. You
23 could hear noise, shouting. In the previous months, it had happened on
24 occasion but not so often. It seemed as if they were celebrating
1 Q. From what army did these soldiers belong?
2 A. The Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
3 Q. Now, let's move to September 9th. Could you tell us what
4 happened on or about September 9th, 1993.
5 A. Three soldiers approached our house, entered the courtyard, and
6 asked us whether we had any livestock.
7 Q. Could you describe these soldiers, please.
8 A. One of them was wearing a white T-shirt and military trousers
9 belonging to a uniform. He was rather tall. He had dark hair. Behind
10 him was one wearing a waistcoat and he had a knife in a sheathe in the
11 waistcoat pocket. And I don't remember what the third one looked like.
12 Q. And of what army did these three soldiers belong?
13 A. The Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 Q. Now, when they came to your house, who was home? Who was there
15 at the time?
16 A. I was there, my brother, my sister, my father, mother,
17 grandmother, and grandfather.
18 Q. Now, when they asked if you had any livestock, did someone answer
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell us what happened.
22 A. They asked my father to go with them and to show them where the
23 livestock was.
24 Q. And did your father go with them?
25 A. He was afraid, so he refused to go with them alone. My
1 grandfather and grandmother and mother went with him, and they were
2 holding hands.
3 Q. And where did they go to? Where were the livestock located?
4 A. They took the path towards the stable, which is 20 or 30 metres
5 from the house.
6 Q. What happened next, sir?
7 A. My mother then went halfway there, and then she returned to the
8 house. Then you could hear a loud burst of fire. I then asked her
9 whether she wanted us to go and hide somewhere, to go and take shelter
11 Q. Now, you said you heard a loud burst of fire. From what
12 direction did you hear that burst of fire?
13 A. From the direction where the cowshed was located.
14 Q. And who in your family had gone into that location?
15 A. My grandfather, my grandmother, and my father.
16 Q. Now, when you say "the cowshed," are you referring to the stable?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, could you tell us again, what did you say to your mother at
19 that point, when you heard the shooting?
20 A. She returned to prepare lunch.
21 Q. Okay. You heard some shooting, and you said something to your
22 mother about hiding. Could you tell us about that? After you heard the
23 shooting, what did you say to her?
24 A. I asked her whether she would like to take shelter until the
25 shooting ceased, but she said it wasn't necessary to take shelter because
1 soldiers had come and gone before and nothing of any significance had
3 Q. What did you and your brother do at that time?
4 A. My brother and I took shelter in the vicinity of the house, above
5 the house.
6 Q. And what did you do once you got to the shelter? When you say
7 "shelter," were you inside or were you outside? Can you give us an idea?
8 A. Outside -- outside and above the house.
9 Q. And what happened? What happened next?
10 A. We stayed there for a while. We then descended to the house
12 Q. While you were there, behind the house, did you hear anything?
13 A. You could still hear shooting for a while. And from the location
14 where I was with my brother, we saw a soldier taking a cow of ours through
15 a meadow.
16 Q. And was that after the shooting that you saw a cow taking a
17 soldier through the meadow, one of your cows from the meadow [sic].
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What did you do next? You see the soldier with the cow. What do
20 you do next?
21 A. We then returned to the house again, to the yard in front of the
22 house. And as far as I can remember, one of the windows had been
23 shattered. The house was in quite a mess. We called out the names of our
24 family members, not too loudly, but no one responded.
25 Q. Were any members of your family in that house?
1 Could you repeat the answer, please.
2 A. At that point in time, no one was in the house.
3 Q. Did you enter your grandmother's house, which was next to
4 yours -- or your grandparents' home?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And was there anyone in that house?
7 A. No.
8 Q. What about in the yard area? Was there anyone out there?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Sir, if I gave you a sheet of paper, could you draw a diagram of
11 your yard or farm with the houses and the barn that you referred to and
12 the area where you hid? Could you do that for us?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. WEINER: [Microphone not activated]
15 Q. Could you tell us what those objects are.
16 A. This is my grandparents' house, and this was our house. But they
17 were together. Those were our houses.
18 These two points represent my brother and myself when we took
19 shelter. This is the path we used. You can go up this way. And you
20 arrive at a point above the house.
21 This is the yard. There is a fence here. The path leading to
22 the cowshed. These are the two cowsheds
23 Q. Sir, could you put the number "1" next to your house, please,
24 with a pencil or a pen.
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. And the number "2" next to your grandparents' house.
2 A. [Marks].
3 Q. Could you put the number "3" next to the stable or the cowshed,
4 however you want to describe it.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. And the number "4" next to the second cowshed.
7 A. [Marks].
8 Q. Now, the area to the right of number 3, the cowshed, is that a
9 yard? Is that the yard in front of the stable or ... That area to the
10 right, yes. What is that?
11 A. This is the path that leads to the cowshed.
12 Q. Could you put a "5" next to the path that leads to the cowshed,
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. And is there a yard in front of that cowshed or -- or a stable,
16 however you want to refer to it? Is there a yard in front of that?
17 A. [Inaudible response].
18 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's answer wasn't audible.
19 MR. WEINER:
20 Q. The interpreter couldn't hear your answer. Was there a path --
21 I'm sorry, was there a yard or dirt area in front of the cowshed?
22 A. No. There is a yard in front of the house. That's the only
23 place where there's a yard. There's a room which can be used as an axis
24 route, but it's not a yard.
25 Q. Thank you. And finally, to the right of your home, there is a
1 criss-cross picture. Is that a gate, or what is that? To the right, to
2 the right of number 1.
3 A. Yes. That's a gate.
4 Q. And could you put a number "6" by the gate.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. And finally, could you put a number "7" in that area where you
7 were hiding, you and your brother hid.
8 A. [Marks].
9 Q. Thank you. We'll get back to that in a while. Thank you.
10 Actually, you can sit down, Madam. You can sit down.
11 Now, sir, let's go back for a few minutes. You told us that the
12 soldiers first arrived. Can you show us -- why don't you show us while
13 it's there where the soldiers were when they first arrived. If you could
14 show us on that photograph.
15 A. They were here, in this yard.
16 Q. Could you point -- could you use the pointer to point it out,
18 A. [Indicates].
19 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that the witness
20 is pointing to an area between the two homes, 1 and 2.
21 Q. And could you show us the path that your father, grandfather,
22 grandmother, and mother and sister took towards that -- towards that
24 A. This is the path they took.
25 MR. WEINER: May the record reflect that they went from the
1 houses down and then took a path right along number 5, the pathway to the
2 barn, a right angle basically that they took.
3 Q. And you said that you were there with your brother. Where were
4 you with your brother when the others left? To go to the barn.
5 A. I was in front of the house with my brother. Then my mother
6 returned to prepare lunch. I then asked her whether she wanted to hide
7 when we heard the burst of fire. She said it wasn't necessary. She said
8 that quite a lot of them had already been there and nothing of any
9 significance had ever happened. And then my brother and I took this path
10 and went above the house, and we stayed there for a while.
11 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may the record reflect that he and his
12 brother were in the area between the two homes, between 1 and 2 on that
13 diagram. They spoke with their mother there. And they then went
14 through -- went up behind the house through gate number 6 and to area
15 number 7 along the path.
16 I'd like to offer that diagram at this time, Your Honour.
17 Could you sign that and date that, please.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, please do not sign on that video projector.
19 Any objections?
20 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I believe that this document is
22 admitted into the evidence.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P88, under seal.
24 MR. WEINER: There's no need to place that under seal. That's --
25 JUDGE LIU: Because there's a signature of the witness.
1 MR. WEINER: Oh, sorry. Thank you.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MR. WEINER:
4 Q. Now, sir, I'd like you to look at two photographs -- thank you.
5 I'd like you to look at two photographs which are now exhibits,
6 Prosecution Exhibits 22 and 84. Could you look at 22 first, P22.
7 MR. WEINER: [Microphone not activated] It's P22 and then look
8 at P84.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. WEINER:
11 Q. Do you recognize that first photograph, sir?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And while they're getting the second one, what was it?
14 Do you recognize the second photograph?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And what are those photographs of, sir?
17 A. Those are photographs of our houses. In a fairly damaged state.
18 Q. Okay. But was that the position of the houses back in 1993,
19 right next to each other, sir?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And is that taken from the front or from the rear or the side?
22 What angle is that taken from? We're looking at P84.
23 A. From the front.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. WEINER: All right. Thank you. We can move on.
1 Q. Now, sir, you indicated before you were looking at the pictures
2 and drew the diagram, you said that you went to the house, you went to
3 both houses, and you couldn't find anyone from your family. What did you
4 and your brother do next?
5 A. We then took the same path. We went above the house, right
6 above. Then we were spotted by a soldier. As far as I can remember, he
7 had some sort of a scarf on his head. When we saw him, we started
8 running. There was shooting from that direction. I don't know whether he
9 was firing in our direction or not. I wouldn't know. But we ran off in
10 the direction of the woods.
11 Q. Now, did you remain in the woods for a while after you ran off?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And could you hear anything while you were in the woods?
14 A. There was a lot of shooting in the village that day.
15 Q. What did you do after that, sir?
16 A. We descended to the house, about 50 or 60 metres from the house,
17 and from that position you could see the front part of the cowshed and of
18 the house.
19 Q. And did you see anything from where you were standing?
20 A. From that position, we saw that there was a sort of pink cover
21 that we had in the house in front of the cowshed and something had been
22 covered with this.
23 Q. Now, when you say "pink cover," are you referring to some sort of
24 bedlinen or a table cloth or curtains or ...
25 A. Well, it was like a sheet that is used as bedding.
1 Q. And you said it was in front of the cowshed or the stable, or
2 what I refer to as a stable. Which cowshed? The first one or the second
4 A. In the first one. The first one.
5 Q. Did you and your brother ever learn what was under that table
6 cloth -- or, I'm sorry, what was under that pinkish sheet?
7 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Excuse me. There's an objection here.
10 The topic may be a legitimate one to cover in questions, but it
11 better be made clear whether he learned it via his own knowledge or via
12 words, before the question is asked in that general -- in that general
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, we might come to that point, and I believe
15 Mr. Weiner will lead us to that point. We'll allow this question to
17 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour. Right now we're asking --
18 it's a general question. We'll be in far more specifics later.
19 Q. Did you and your brother ever learn what was below that pink
20 sheet that was in front of the cowshed?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What was below the pink sheet, sir? Please tell the Judges.
23 What was it covering?
24 A. My mother and my sister.
25 Q. As you stood 50 metres in front of the barn, were you able to see
1 the area in front of your house, in the yard?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you see any members of your family in the area of the barn,
4 the house, or the yard?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you hear the voices of any members of your family in the
7 areas of the house, yard, or barn?
8 A. No.
9 MR. WEINER: May the witness be shown that diagram again,
10 number 88, please, Prosecution's Exhibit P88.
11 [Microphone not activated] ... could you place it on the ELMO.
12 Q. Could you please show the Court first where you saw the bodies of
13 your mother and sister lying under that pink sheet.
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. And could you put an "8" next to that, please.
16 A. [Marks].
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. WEINER: Nothing further on that.
19 Q. Now, sir, what did you do next? Tell the Judges, please.
20 A. We then returned to the woods because that's where we felt
22 Q. Could you hear anything at the time, while you were in the woods?
23 A. All one could hear was shooting.
24 Q. What did you do?
25 A. We wandered around aimlessly. Occasionally we would sit down.
1 We didn't know where to go or what to do.
2 Q. Did you decide to go somewhere?
3 A. After a certain period of time, we decided to go to the house of
4 our first neighbour in the village, whose name was (redacted). When we
5 arrived at a point above the house, I saw something like a blue rag, as
6 they say. I saw this from a distance. And I told my brother to wait for
7 me and descended to see what it was. When I had approached the fence, the
8 fence that was behind the house and where you would enter the yard in
9 which our neighbour, (redacted) had chickens, I saw him prostrated on
10 the ground and there was a huge hole in his head. When I saw this, I
11 turned around and ran back to my brother. I told him what I had seen, and
12 we then ran back to the woods.
13 Q. Was he bleeding when you saw him?
14 A. His head was all bloody with a big hole in this part.
15 Q. How was he dressed?
16 A. In civilian clothing.
17 Q. Was he wearing a uniform?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Wearing a military uniform?
20 A. No. No, none of the Croats in ...
21 Q. You said none of the Croats. What do you mean?
22 A. None of the Croats at that time in the village would wear a
23 uniform. They would have been killed immediately.
24 Q. Could you tell us his approximate age.
25 A. As far as I can recall, he was about 55, between 55 and 60 years
1 of age.
2 Q. Do you know what ethnic group he belonged to?
3 A. He was an ethnic Croat.
4 Q. And of what religion was he?
5 A. Roman Catholic.
6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour -- sorry.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
8 MR. WEINER: Since this is the first session, I was just
9 wondering when the break period or when would you prefer the break?
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, let's come to 4.00. Then we'll make a break.
11 MR. WEINER: All right. That's fine. Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that we have to go to the private
1 session for this purpose. Let's go to the private session, please.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 32-37 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Weiner, you may proceed.
12 MR. WEINER: Okay. Mr. Registrar, could you please show the
13 witness quickly photographs P26 and 27, five seconds of each.
14 Could you look at them, please.
15 And now 27, please.
16 Q. Now, sir, do you recognize -- just first tell me yes or no -- do
17 you recognize those two photographs?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And are those photographs of the home of the neighbour - without
20 saying the neighbour's name - who you saw lying on the ground with a hole
21 in his head?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, you ran off to your -- you ran off to your
24 brother after that, you said.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And did you tell him what you had seen?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And just tell us what happened next. What did you do next?
4 A. After that, we ran to the woods, and we were crossing part of the
5 hill, and there two soldiers spotted us.
6 Q. And did they say anything to you?
7 A. Yes. They yelled for us to come down. They told us to come down
8 from the hill.
9 Q. And did you meet them somewhere?
10 A. First we refused to come down. Then one of the soldiers shouted
11 to us, "Come down or we'll shoot." Then we went down and we met them on a
13 Q. And where were these -- from what army were these soldiers from?
14 A. The Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Muslim army.
15 MR. WEINER: Could the witness see Exhibit P25.
16 Q. Is that the area where you met the soldiers?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did you make any requests of the soldiers?
19 A. First we told them what had happened during the day. We told
20 them who we were. Then we asked them to take us to our house so that they
21 could see for themselves what had happened and so that we could take some
22 things from our house which we needed, clothes and such like.
23 Q. Now, did they agree to take you to your home?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did something happen when you got close to the barn?
1 A. When we approached the barn, from where I was standing you could
2 see part of that pink sheet. And then the soldier whom they called Rambo
3 went up there, and he said, "Don't go near there. There are corpses
4 there." Then he entered the cowshed. He came out quickly, and he
5 said, "Don't go in here either. There are corpses in here too."
6 Q. Now, did they bring you to the house?
7 A. Then they took us to the house by the lower path, below the
8 house, leading up to the gate behind the house. And from there you can
9 enter the house. That's the route we took. We took the things we needed,
10 and then we returned by the same route.
11 Q. Now, did you and your brother walk the same route as you left the
13 A. When we were leaving the house, he went through the courtyard and
14 I went below the house with the two soldiers. He ...
15 Q. Did you meet your brother moments later?
16 A. When we met a few moments later, he approached me and told me
17 that underneath the sheets were my mother and my sister and that they were
18 covered up to about here.
19 Q. First let's take a step back. Under what sheet? Are you
20 referring to the pink sheet, the pinkish-colour sheet?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And first did he say how he knew it was your mother and your
23 little sister under that pink sheet?
24 A. You could see the upper part of their -- of their faces.
25 Q. Did he show you what part of the faces that he could see? You
1 said he -- they were covered up to here, you said. Did he show you with
2 his hand a portion of the face?
3 A. The upper part of the faces could be seen.
4 Q. Now, where did you go next, sir?
5 A. The soldiers then took us to Pero Lagar's [phoen] house. That's
6 what they called him. You can show me the photograph, and then I'll
7 explain this to you.
8 Q. All right. I'll show you the photograph in a short while, but --
9 they took you there, and what happened while you were there?
10 A. When we arrived there, the soldiers were somewhat surprised.
11 They asked us who we were, how it is that we were there. We then told
12 them what had happened during the day, and they then said that this is
13 something that the Ustasha had done.
14 Q. Now, what is --
15 A. Our cow was tied up there in front of the house.
16 Q. All right. Let's just step back one second. The soldiers, the
17 soldiers of what army, sir?
18 A. Of the ABiH.
19 Q. And they said that the Ustashas had done this. What were they
20 referring to?
21 A. They were referring to the Croatian army.
22 Q. And what does "Ustasha" mean?
23 A. Well, it's a sort of derogatory term for the Croatian army.
24 Q. And what did they say that the Ustashas had done?
25 A. They said that the Ustasha had come and they had killed people in
1 the village.
2 Q. And what people were they referring to? What people were you
3 talking about?
4 A. They were referring to a people in the Croatian army.
5 Q. No, when you -- they said the -- excuse me. They said the
6 Ustashas had done this. What were you talking about? What did you tell
7 them that they blamed the -- the Croatians for?
8 A. When I told them that they had killed everyone in our house, that
9 they had killed my family, they said that they hadn't done that; they said
10 that the Ustasha had arrived, that the Ustasha had killed my family, and
11 they had then left.
12 Q. Now, you mentioned a cow. You also asked them about a cow. Can
13 you just briefly tell us what that was about.
14 A. Our cow was tied up in front of that house. It was in the
15 meadow. That's the same cow that I saw a soldier taking away. And I
16 asked them what the cow was doing there, how come the cow was there. And
17 they said that the cow had just turned up on its own.
18 Q. Okay. Now, were you fed while you were there?
19 A. Yes. We asked them for food, since we were pretty hungry. We
20 hadn't had anything to eat that day, and night was gradually falling.
21 They then took us into the house, and they gave us something to eat there.
22 There were quite a few soldiers in the room. They were sitting around us.
23 Q. Now, did they put you to bed after you ate, sir, you and your
25 A. They then took us to a room in which we could sleep, and about 15
1 or 20 minutes later two soldiers came in. One was in civilian clothes,
2 and the other was in uniform. They called him by the nickname Celo, and
3 he asked us who we were, what had happened to us, and where we were from.
4 Q. And did you have conversation with him?
5 A. We then answered the questions he had put to us, and he then left
6 the room.
7 Q. Now, this house that you referred to, where you spent the night,
8 was that in the village of Grabovica?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. WEINER: And could photograph 2353 be placed on the screen.
11 Sorry, that would be Exhibit 86, P86.
12 Q. Is that house where you spent the night and where you met this
13 person named Celo depicted in that photograph?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And could you please circle that.
16 A. Yes. [Marks].
17 MR. WEINER: Thank you. I'd like to offer that.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I guess there's no objections, so it's admitted
19 into the evidence.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be In-Court Exhibit IC003.
21 MR. WEINER: Now -- thank you.
22 Q. After you met Celo, did you tell him what had occurred that day
23 to your family?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And how long did you speak with him?
1 A. Well, as far as I can remember, not for very long.
2 Q. And did you tell him that your family had been killed on that
4 A. I did.
5 Q. Now, the next morning, did something happen early in the morning?
6 A. Early in the morning, a soldier entered the room and he told us
7 to get dressed because Celo wanted to see us. After we had got dressed,
8 we went to where he was waiting for us.
9 Q. In what village was he waiting?
10 A. In the village of Grabovica.
11 Q. What happened?
12 A. He then asked us whether we could recognise any of the soldiers
13 who had done what they had done.
14 Q. When you say "done what they had done," what did he say? What
15 was he referring to? Or what were the exact words he used?
16 A. He was referring to the soldiers who had committed the crime. He
17 asked me whether I recognised any of those who were present in our house
18 that morning.
19 Q. And when you say "crime," killed your family? Is that the crime
20 you're referring to?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did you -- were there soldiers at that location, other
24 A. There were quite a few soldiers there. Some were sitting at a
25 table in front of the house. They were drinking.
1 Q. And these were soldiers from what army?
2 A. The Muslim army.
3 Q. And what did you do? Did you identify anyone?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was there a reason that you didn't identify anyone?
6 A. I didn't want to look at anyone very carefully because even if I
7 had recognised someone, I think I would have been killed on the spot,
8 because if they were able to kill my four-year-old sister, why would they
9 not want to kill me? So I said that I could not see anyone there.
10 Q. Now, did Celo have any conversation with you and your brother
11 after -- after that?
12 A. He then asked us where we had other family members, in which
13 places. He asked us who we had. We said we had an uncle in Jablanica and
14 an aunt in Mostar. He asked us who we wanted to go to stay with. We said
15 we would like to go to my uncle's in Jablanica. He then put us in a car.
16 Q. And did they bring you somewhere?
17 A. They drove us to Donja Jablanica, to Rogica's [phoen] house.
18 Someone they would call Alispago was in the passenger seat. He seemed to
19 be some kind of a bodyguard.
20 Q. Now, how long did you stay at that house? How many days?
21 A. 12 days.
22 Q. So they didn't bring you directly to your uncle's on that first
24 A. No.
25 MR. WEINER: Now, could the witness please be shown Exhibit P76.
1 Q. Do you recognize what's depicted in that photograph, sir?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What is that?
4 A. The house in the middle is the house in which I spent 12 days.
5 Q. Now, on the fifth or sixth day of that stay, did something
7 A. Yes. Zulfikar Alispago, Zuka, who was a commander at the time,
8 he took us to Grabovica.
9 Q. Where did he take you in Grabovica?
10 A. He took us to our house in Grabovica.
11 Q. And why did he take you there?
12 A. I think he wanted to show us where the bodies had been, probably
13 in order to confuse us, because by that day all the evidence had been
14 concealed. I visited the places where they had been, and it wasn't
15 possible to see any traces there.
16 Q. Did you enter the barn?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were there any corpses in the barn? Any dead bodies?
19 A. No.
20 Q. That area in front of the barn where your mother and little
21 sister laid covered partially by a pink sheet, were either they or the
22 pink sheet still present?
23 A. No. The bodies weren't there and nor was the pink sheet.
24 Q. Did you see any members of your family there?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Now, after 12 days, did they take you somewhere else?
2 A. After 12 days, they asked me whether I wanted to see my uncle,
3 and I said that I did. They then took us to my uncle's, and we did not
4 return to Donja Jablanica from there. We stayed there until the 1st of
5 March, 2004. And then we went to Mostar, with a prisoner exchange. We
6 spent one night in the museum where the ABiH was keeping Croatian
8 Q. Excuse me. You said you were exchanged on the 1st of March,
9 2004. Is that the proper date?
10 A. I think so. I think so.
11 Q. Was it in the year 2004 or was it earlier than that?
12 A. 1993. I apologise if I made a slip. The 1st of March, 1993 --
14 Q. So you were sent to Mostar as part of an exchange programme in
16 Now, sir, later that year did you have the occasion to visit the
17 hospital in Split?
18 A. Yes. I went to the hospital in Split to identify corpses there.
19 Q. And did you go with someone? Did you go with your uncle?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did you speak with a doctor in the corridor?
22 A. Yes. The doctor asked me what sort of trousers my father was
23 wearing on the day that he was killed. I then told him that he was
24 wearing chequered trousers. He then brought me a sample and asked me
25 whether this fitted the description, and I said that it did. That's what
2 Q. And also on that date, did your uncle view and identify bodies?
3 A. Yes. (redacted)
5 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may that be expunged from the record
6 that goes to the public. Thank you.
7 Q. He recognised -- you said his father. Did he recognise your
9 A. I identified my father.
10 Q. And did your uncle also make that identification or confirm that
11 identification of your father?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was a funeral held for your father and grandfather after their
14 bodies were identified?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And finally, were the bodies of your mother, grandmother, and
17 four-year-old sister ever recovered?
18 A. Those bodies were never found. They haven't been found to this
19 very day.
20 MR. WEINER: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
22 Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
23 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, would the witness just excuse me
24 and the Court excuse me while I lift the podium up and arrange and
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.
2 You are not going to conduct a long cross-examination, I suppose.
3 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, can I indicate it will be both as
4 long as necessary and relatively short at the same time.
5 JUDGE LIU: Of course.
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:
8 Q. Witness, at the time when the village was -- was reoccupied by
9 the Army of Bosnia on the 5th -- on the 9th of May of 1993, did you notice
10 an individual called Nihad fighting for that army?
11 A. No.
12 Q. After the initial fright of that occupation, did you and your
13 family both become accustomed to seeing soldiers in the village of
14 Grabovica from time to time?
15 A. Given the circumstances, yes.
16 Q. Did you know whether any of those soldiers belonged to a unit
17 called Celo's Wolves?
18 A. I only heard that name later. How could a 10-year-old know
19 anything about that at the time?
20 Q. Is it the fact that you simply cannot recall any of the names of
21 the different units at that time?
22 A. I didn't know the units at that time.
23 Q. Very well. Were soldiers living nearby to Grabovica in the
24 hydroelectric plant at that time?
25 A. We never strayed very far from the house. Our parents wouldn't
1 allow us to do so. The hydroelectric plant is some distance away.
2 Q. Very well. As to the soldiers that you saw in the village from
3 time to time, are you unable to say where it was they resided?
4 A. I think that they had found accommodation in houses or in -- in
5 the hut on the left bank, which I could show you on the photograph.
6 Q. Before we go to the photograph, are you referring to the
7 barracks-like structure that was on the left bank of the village opposite
8 the houses on your side of the village?
9 A. Yes, that's what I'm referring to.
10 Q. Yes. Thank you.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P3,
12 which is this. Thank you.
13 Q. In the foreground of that photograph, can you see the -- the hut
14 to which you're referring?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: If that exhibit can be removed again.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness.
18 Was there a -- an area up the mountain from your dwelling place
19 known as Diva Grabovica?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How long did it take to walk from Grabovica to Diva Grabovica?
22 A. I never went there on foot, but I think that it would take about
23 an hour or an hour and a half to get there.
24 Q. Between May and September of 1993, was Diva Grabovica located
25 close to the front line of the fighting parties?
1 A. I don't think so.
2 Q. Did you go there in that period yourself?
3 A. No. No.
4 Q. In the period between May and September 1993, did you see Marinko
6 A. No. As I have said, I never went very far from the house.
7 Q. Do you recall him visiting you at the house in that time?
8 A. I don't recall him visiting.
9 Q. Very well. When the troops from Sarajevo arrived, did you hear a
10 great deal of shooting, shouting, and general noise?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In the past, had the soldiers from the Bosnian army sometimes
13 fired off guns for no apparent reason?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When the troops from Sarajevo arrived, you indicated in evidence
16 earlier that it sounded as if they were celebrating. Did it sound to you
17 as if -- I withdraw that question.
18 Did you draw that conclusion about celebration partly from the
19 fact of hearing the gunfire?
20 A. Because of the atmosphere.
21 Q. Yes. But the gunfire was a part of that; is that correct?
22 A. Well, there was a war on. Of course.
23 Q. Yes, I understand. And in short, merely because you heard
24 gunfire, you didn't draw a conclusion that anyone was being killed; is
25 that correct?
1 MR. WEINER: At what stage? At what stage? I'd object. Upon
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the -- the situation is very clear
4 here, you know. We know -- we know when the celebration is. Let us see
5 whether the witness could answer this question or not. If not, maybe
6 Mr. Morrissey could ask a more specific question in that direction. But
7 at least I understand the question and the point.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Your Honour, in any event, I will clarify
9 the matter.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yeah, of course.
11 MR. MORRISSEY:
12 Q. Pardon me, Witness. I'll ask the question again in a different
14 At the time when you heard the gunfire that you connected with
15 celebrating, you did not think anyone was being shot and killed at that
16 time; correct?
17 A. I can't answer this very precisely. I can't recall my thought
18 processes at the time, but that was the impression I had, yes.
19 Q. Very well. And -- very well. Now, on the morning of the 9th of
20 September, you noticed three soldiers at your property. And what I want
21 to ask you is: Did you see them approach along a path, or did you just
22 notice them after they arrived?
23 A. We saw them as they were going from the gate to the courtyard, as
24 the gate is not very far from the courtyard.
25 Q. Very well. And when they approached you, they did not initially
1 appear to be unfriendly or aggressive; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And is it the case that your mother appeared to you to treat this
4 visit as just another visit by just another group of soldiers?
5 A. We met them in the same way as the previous groups, because we
6 could not imagine what was about to happen. They arrived with the simple
7 question, "Do you have any livestock?"
8 Q. Nothing had happened the night before which caused you to have
9 any special caution or fear of these men; is that correct? To your
11 A. Yes, that's correct. Nothing happened that would indicate
12 something like this could happen.
13 Q. All you had heard in the previous day was shouting, shooting, and
14 what you've described as celebration; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, I have very few questions for you about the shootings that
17 you've already described, but I have questions about the men who arrived,
18 and those are the questions I'm going to ask you.
19 Firstly, have you ever been shown photographs of individual
20 people with a view to having you identify the men who came to your farm
21 that day?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Not by the Croatian authorities and not by the Office of the
24 Prosecutor here?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Have you ever been asked whether you knew a man called Haris
2 Rajkic, R-a-j-k-i-c?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Enes Sakrak?
5 A. I've heard that name. I think I heard that name somewhere or
6 read it in a newspaper. It somehow seems familiar.
7 Q. Did the Prosecutor or any other person identify to you that a man
8 has confessed to shooting your mother and your baby sister?
9 A. I heard that at the court in Sarajevo.
10 Q. Have you ever been asked about a man called Sead, S-e-a-d - I
11 apologise for the pronunciation - Karagic, K-a-r-a-g-i-c [Realtime
12 transcript read in error "Karadzic"]?
13 A. No, I've never heard that name.
14 Q. Were you ever asked to provide further descriptions of the man
15 who had a headband or a scarf on his head that you saw who might have
16 fired at you after the incidents at your house?
17 A. I don't recall anyone asking me that; although, in the
18 statements, we mentioned him but we only saw him very briefly. It was
19 just a brief glimpse of him before we turned and fled.
20 Q. When you -- I'm jumping forward briefly to the following day,
21 when the man named Celo lined up the soldiers. When you looked at those
22 men that were lined up, did you in fact recognise any person?
23 A. No. But I didn't really want to look at them very carefully. I
24 didn't want to look at them properly, because I was afraid.
25 Q. I just need -- I need some clarity on this topic. Is your -- do
1 you say that the killers might have been in that line but you didn't look
2 closely, or that the killers definitely were not in that line?
3 MR. WEINER: Objection. I'd object to the first half of it, when
4 he asks, "Are you saying -- could the killers might have been in that
5 line," you're asking the witness to speculate.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with you.
7 You may rephrase your question, Mr. Morrissey.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Yes.
9 Q. Do you rule out the possibility that one or more of the killers
10 was in that line or not?
11 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, that's just as bad.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, could I justify the question if
13 that's the case.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
15 MR. MORRISSEY: The witness might be in two states, it seems to
16 me. He might say he look at the men briefly and can say for sure that the
17 killers were not in that line, or he might say he was not looking properly
18 because he didn't want to be seen to --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They might have been or they might
20 not have been.
21 JUDGE LIU: Well -- well, I believe that this Bench will
22 evaluate this piece of the evidence, taking into the consideration of the
23 special circumstances at that time as well as the age of this witness at
24 that time.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.
1 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.
2 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.
3 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now, returning back to the events on -- at the
4 farmhouse. You then -- having hidden from the three men who were involved
5 in the killings, did you see a fourth man, that being the man with the
6 scarf around his head, or was he one of the three?
7 A. The three who came to the house, none of them had a scarf on
8 their head. This one did, so he was a fourth man. Unless of course he
9 put the scarf on in the meantime.
10 Q. It was obvious to you that this fourth man saw you and noticed
11 you; correct?
12 A. As far as I can recollect, I think our eyes met at one point.
20 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed anyway.
21 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well.
22 Q. Well, you attended at the neighbour's house. Your account is
23 that you -- pardon me. Your account is that you saw one person deceased
24 at that premises; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, that's the account that you gave to the investigators from
2 this Tribunal; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In the past, have you given an account of seeing more than that?
5 A. It's possible.
6 Q. And did you do that because of anger or for some other reason?
7 A. Today in the courtroom I said everything I can recollect at this
8 point. It's possible I may have mentioned this, or maybe not, but now I
9 can recall everything that I said today.
10 Q. Very well. Did you know a man called Pero and -- and his partner
11 Matija Culjak? Culjak.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You had not -- where did they live?
17 A. [In English] Can you repeat the question?
18 Q. Does the path to your house go past the neighbour's house?
19 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
20 Q. Is that the main path to your house, or are there a number of
21 paths to your house?
22 A. It's the main path.
23 Q. Is that the path along which the soldiers appeared to come and
24 appeared to go on that occasion?
25 A. What soldiers do you mean now?
1 Q. The three soldiers.
2 A. I think they arrived by that path. That's the only way they
3 could have reached the main gate.
4 Q. And when leaving with the animals, is that the way they appeared
5 to be taking?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Later you were detected by soldiers and effectively arrested by
8 them; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the soldier -- the soldier Rambo permitted you to go back to
11 your premises; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And by the time -- soon after that he took you to Pero Maric's
14 house; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And Pero Maric's house appeared by this time to have been
17 constructed --
18 A. Pero Lagar.
19 Q. I'm sorry. Now, is the name Lagar a family name or is it a
21 A. It's a nickname. His last name is Maric.
22 Q. It is. I understand. Very well. Well, were you taken to his
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was he there?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And was this house being used as a base by soldiers?
3 A. In view of the number of soldiers in that house, one might say
4 that, yes.
5 Q. And was the cow that had been taken from your house tied up
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did the soldiers talk about it as a base?
9 A. I can't recall that. But my first impression, when I saw the
10 number of soldiers there, that's what I thought.
11 Q. Near to that house, was there a partially constructed -- perhaps
12 I'll withdraw that question.
13 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P38.
14 Q. Are you able to see a partially constructed white house in that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Are you familiar with that particular house?
18 A. I think this house was in front of Pero Maric's house.
19 Q. Orienting yourself in relation to that photograph, can you point
20 with a pointer the direction of Pero Maric's house.
21 A. It was in this direction, I think.
22 Q. Are you able to see -- do you see a white structure hidden in the
23 bushes at the end of -- in the distance of Exhibit P38 --
24 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And what is that building?
1 A. It's possible that that is the house; although, it doesn't look
2 like a house now.
3 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown photograph --
4 Exhibit P3.
5 Q. Yes. Do you have in front of you there a photograph that's --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. On the extreme left of that photograph in about the
8 middle, do you see a part of a -- well, perhaps I should ask you the
9 question directly: Is Pero Maric's house to be seen in that photograph?
10 A. Yes, a bit of it, I think. I think this is the house. And that
11 this is the house on the photograph we just saw. And if you look in this
12 direction, then it's logical that it should be here.
13 Q. Very well. In conclusion, therefore, is it safe to say that
14 the -- the wrecked house appears to be within 50 metres of Pero Maric's
15 house at the base?
16 A. I never measured it, but it's possible, yes.
17 Q. Very well. All right. Now, in your journey from your home down
18 to that base, you were in the company of Rambo for most or all of that
19 time; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You did not see the bodies of any other persons in that journey;
22 is that correct?
23 A. No, I didn't.
24 Q. Whilst at Mr. Pero Maric's house, you did not see any other
25 bodies; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And --
3 A. I didn't see any.
4 Q. And it was obvious to you at all times that the soldiers at Pero
5 Maric's base were trying to put a false appearance on the situation in the
6 village by claiming the killings had been done by other people; is that
8 A. Yes. Because of our age, I think they tried to confuse us or
10 Q. And they fed you food and talked to you nicely; is that correct?
11 A. They gave us food, but as to the way they addressed us, I can't
12 remember that.
13 Q. It's okay. Now, you were approached by a man in civilian clothes
14 and a man in -- a man dressed as a soldier, as you recall. I want to ask
15 you some questions about that.
16 Firstly, did one of those men appear to be the leader of that
17 group of soldiers?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did all the others seem to obey?
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
23 MR. WEINER: I think the transcript system is down.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well --
25 MR. WEINER: We're not receiving -- sorry for interrupting.
1 JUDGE LIU: We have two monitors in front of us, and I believe
2 that I relied on that small screen for the LiveNote.
3 MR. WEINER: Is counsel's working?
4 MR. MORRISSEY: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, ours is
6 Your Honour, I apologise to the witness and to the Court. Mine
7 appears to be working. Another one we have appears not to be working.
8 MR. WEINER: We have one that works. We'll try and work off
9 this. Sorry for interrupting.
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And could I ask at this moment how long
11 your cross-examination will last.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: I think it's likely to be going not more than
13 another half an hour, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE LIU: Maybe the best way for us is to have our break so
15 that the technicians could have the computer fixed.
17 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, is the plan to start the other witness
19 JUDGE LIU: We'll try that, but it seems to me that it's
20 impossible to do that. Because after the break it's almost 6.00. Then
21 Mr. Morrissey will take another 30 minutes. Then we'll have the Judges to
22 ask some questions. So probably we'll not call the next witness today.
23 MR. WEINER: May I release the witness, Your Honour?
24 JUDGE LIU: Of course.
25 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
1 JUDGE LIU: So we'll resume at five minutes to 6.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Thank you, sir.
7 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, might I just correct the
8 transcript -- a matter at transcript T53. I spelled -- the name is
9 K-a-r-a-g-i-c. It's been realised as -- as another individual known to
10 these courts.
11 Q. Thank you, Witness. And I apologise for that delay.
12 Now, I was asking you before the break about the procedure at the
13 Maric house and your encounter with the leader of this group. And what I
14 wanted to ask you is this: You met with three killers relatively early in
15 the morning at your house; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then you wandered -- can I -- may I ask you this: I take it
18 you weren't keeping time with a wristwatch or any other clock device?
19 A. No.
20 Q. When you saw the -- the leader of these soldiers down at Pero
21 Maric's house, was it still light?
22 A. The first time I saw him was when he entered the room.
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. It was already beginning to get quite dark at that time. In
25 September, well, then you can calculate for yourself what time it might
1 have been.
2 Q. Witness, I think you'll be the expert for that calculation.
3 Doing the best you can, can you indicate approximately what time it starts
4 to get dark at about that time of year, in your experience?
5 A. It might have been about 6.00.
6 Q. Thank you. Approximately what time the following morning did
7 this line-up procedure take place?
8 A. I couldn't answer that question precisely.
9 Q. If I put two competing times to you, perhaps you might say which
10 one is nearer, if you're able to do so. Was it around 7.00 a.m. in the
11 morning or around 10.00 a.m. in the morning?
12 A. I couldn't say.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. It was 12 or 13 years ago.
15 Q. Certainly. Very well. When you were among the soldiers in that
16 house, did you hear any names or nicknames being used apart from the name
18 A. I recall the names Rambo and Celo. Those are two -- the two
19 nicknames that stick in my memory.
20 Q. Very well. About how many soldiers were there in the line-up
21 that you saw?
22 A. I didn't count them. I wouldn't know.
23 Q. Very well. Is it -- may I ask you whether to your estimation it
24 was over 100 or under 50?
25 A. I couldn't answer that precisely, no.
1 Q. Were you then taken out of the village of Grabovica and back in
2 the direction of Jablanica?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What kind of a car did you go in?
5 A. As far as I can remember, it was an Audi 80, a metallic grey
7 Q. Was the driver of that metallic grey Audi a person who was
8 working for Celo, as far as you could see?
9 A. Celo himself drove the car.
10 Q. Pardon me. Was -- was the other person in the car somebody who
11 appeared to be subordinate or under Celo or senior and superior to him?
12 A. I was under the impression that he was some kind of a bodyguard.
13 Q. Did he -- I'm sorry. I cut you off.
14 A. Since he was sitting next to him in the passenger seat. My
15 brother and I were at the back. He was sitting in the front with a rifle.
16 Q. Was it a Heckler & Koch rifle?
17 A. Later I saw that rifle somewhere, and I do think it was a
19 Q. Was this bodyguard a person with black hair?
20 A. Black hair or dark brown hair, but I would sooner say that it was
22 Q. Was he very big and strong?
23 A. Well, average.
24 Q. Bearing in mind that you were only 10 at the time, are you able
25 to indicate whether you think he was in his early 20s or whether he was a
1 man of older years, such as 40?
2 A. I'd say that he was middle-aged.
3 Q. Now, when you hopped into this -- when you got into this vehicle,
4 did you do so just outside the Pero Maric house, the base?
5 A. We got into the vehicle in front of the house. I could show you
6 on the photograph.
7 Q. Yes, very well. Just excuse me a moment.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown P38.
9 A. I can use this photograph too.
10 MR. MORRISSEY: Could I cancel that request, please.
11 Q. The photograph you have in front of you now is a panoramic view
12 of the village; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Very well. Could you please indicate where that took place.
15 A. It was in front of this house.
16 Q. Yes. Thank you.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, because I didn't identify the
18 picture, I have not a note of the Prosecution Exhibit number, and rather
19 than flounder, could I just identify it by referring to its ERN number,
20 0419 -- sorry, 0149-4606.
21 JUDGE LIU: Maybe the court -- the court deputy could inform you
22 about that.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Morrissey, the Prosecution Exhibit number
24 is P3.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm advised that the Prosecution Exhibit number
1 is P3, and I identify that as the photograph shown to the witness, and I'm
2 grateful for the assistance. Thank you.
3 Q. At no time did you go to the entrance of the village and wave
4 down a vehicle; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct. But I don't really understand your
6 question. Could you repeat it, please.
7 Q. I'm really putting a scenario to you that another -- that may --
8 may involve another witness later. But if it was suggested that you and
9 your brother went to the entrance of the village and there haled down a
10 vehicle, you'd say no such thing ever happened; is that correct?
11 A. Yes. We never tried to stop a vehicle of any kind.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel speak closer to the
13 microphone for the interpreters. Thank you.
14 MR. MORRISSEY: I may not be speaking for much longer in this
15 cross-examination, but I will endeavour to do that. Very well. Thank
17 Q. Now, when you were taken in the car, at that time did you pass by
18 any groups of soldiers positioned at checkpoints on your way into
19 Donja Jablanica?
20 A. Perhaps, but I can't really remember.
21 Q. Can I ask you to think back, if you can, to the moment of
22 crossing over that iron bridge that leaves the village and consider
23 whether or not you passed by any checkpoint of any form at that point.
24 And, of course, I'm asking here for a memory, if you have one, and not
1 A. Perhaps we did stop before the bridge. It's about ten minutes
2 from Grabovica in the direction of Jablanica, and perhaps it was just
3 before entering Donja Jablanica, because I remember that while I was
4 staying in Donja Jablanica, before the entrance to Donja Jablanica there
5 were two big tank mines on the road.
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. When we entered, perhaps they removed those mines to let us pass
8 through, or something like that.
9 Q. Very well. So let me just see if -- if I've understood the
10 evidence correctly. I'll put some propositions to you and you can tell me
11 if they're correct or not correct.
12 You left the village in a car with two men; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You crossed the iron bridge; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You may have stopped -- you may have seen a checkpoint there at
17 the iron bridge, but you're not entirely sure; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. But as the vehicle approached Donja Jablanica, you do recall
20 being stopped at a checkpoint and ultimately allowed through that
21 checkpoint; is that correct?
22 A. There were two mines there. They were there while I was in
23 Donja Jablanica for 12 days. I remember that very well. There was a
24 soldier there who was some sort of guard. But as to whether we stopped
25 there on the way, I can't remember exactly.
1 Q. Doing the best you can with your memory now, do you say that that
2 checkpoint, whether you stopped there or not, was present when you drove
3 with the two men from Grabovica to Donja Jablanica?
4 A. I can't remember exactly.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. That was a long time ago.
7 Q. Yes. Okay. Now, in the days and years since the killing of your
8 family members by the three murderers who came to your house, you have
9 been told many things about what happened and what might have happened and
10 what could have happened in that village; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But at all times after you were taken into custody by Rambo and
13 his friends, you saw no dead bodies; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you observed a clear attempt to deceive you and your brother
16 as to what had really happened in that village; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in short, you observed a clear attempt to present to the
19 world a cleaned-up Grabovica; is that correct?
20 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE LIU: What's the reason for that?
22 MR. WEINER: An attempt to project to the world?
23 JUDGE LIU: I see no problem of this question.
24 You may proceed, Mr. Morrissey.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.
1 Q. What I was putting to you there, Witness, was what you saw was an
2 attempt to project to the world or represent to the world that nothing had
3 happened in Grabovica. Do you agree with that?
4 A. Yes, I would agree with that.
5 Q. Okay. But you know something had happened.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And when Celo asked you to point out the killers, you felt unable
8 to participate in that because of a very sensible fear that pointing out
9 the killers might bring more harm on you; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Would Your Honour just excuse me for one moment.
12 This cross-examination has now reached its very terminal phase.
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Witness.
15 Thank you. That's the questions.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
17 Any redirect?
18 MR. WEINER: No redirect, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
20 Any questions from the Judges?
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Judge El Mahdi.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 [Interpretation] Witness, I would just like to clarify certain
1 matters to be sure that I have understood you correctly.
2 My first question has to do with the three individuals, the three
3 men who came to your home. One of them was wearing a T-shirt, a white
4 T-shirt. And you said that he was part of the ABiH. As far as this
5 person is concerned and the two others - and I assume that you will say
6 that they were in uniform - did these men have insignia of any kind of
7 them -- on them which showed that they were ABiH members? How did you
8 come to the conclusion that these three men were members of the ABiH?
9 A. One of them was wearing a white T-shirt and he had trousers which
10 were part of a military uniform. The other one was wearing some kind of a
11 waistcoat, and on his side he had a knife in a sheath. And when you asked
12 me how I know that they were ABiH members, well, the ABiH had taken
13 Grabovica on the 10th of May, 1993. Which other army could it have been?
14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But, Witness, I am asking
15 the questions, not you. The third men -- the three men who appeared
16 there, in spite of the fact that they were armed, might not have been
17 members of the army. But nevertheless, you can confirm that they didn't
18 have insignia of any kind on them. If I have understood you correctly,
19 ABiH members were in uniform and they had insignia; isn't that correct?
20 Usually that was the case.
21 A. Well, that was probably the case. But I didn't see any insignia
22 on them.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But my question is: If you
24 don't remember, just say that you can't remember. My question is quite
25 simple. Did the troops have any distinctive insignia on them?
1 A. I can't remember. I can't remember seeing insignia of any kind.
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you for that answer.
3 You said that on the day of the incident your mother went to
4 prepare lunch and she in no way seemed bothered or troubled by the
5 appearance of these individuals at your threshold and by the shooting.
6 Are you saying that what happened afterwards was exceptional, in spite of
7 the shooting that you were accustomed to, there had never been such an
8 incident before in your village and as a result your mother was quite
9 convinced that there was nothing to fear? To be clearer, in your opinion
10 was this incident an exceptional case?
11 A. My mother, in my opinion, reacted in that way because while under
12 occupation from the 10th of May to the 9th of September, soldiers would
13 come to our house. Occasionally one of them would steal something, if
14 anything took his liking. Sometimes soldiers would appear for no reason
15 at all. And so she was under the impression that nothing bad would
16 happen. And it is perhaps for this reason that she reacted in that way.
17 That is my opinion.
18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. She wasn't aware of any
19 similar incidents that had happened before. Not for you but in the case
20 of other inhabitants.
21 A. No.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. And my last question
23 concerns with confirming individual's identity. The people who were
24 present there, were they in military uniform or were there some of them
25 who were wearing civilian clothes, T-shirts, shirts, for example?
1 A. Are you referring to the three men in front of the house?
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, no. When the person you
3 call Celo asked you to identify the person or the persons who had appeared
4 in front of your house and who were responsible for the incident that had
5 happened, you said that you were hesitant because you were afraid of
6 suffering the same fate as the other members of your family had suffered.
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So were all the men in military
10 A. As far as I could see, they were all in military uniforms.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And if I have understood you
12 correctly, your brother, who was older than you, was also present. Was he
13 able to identify the men who were responsible for what had happened, as
14 far as you know?
15 A. As far as I can remember, he didn't tell me that he had
16 recognised anyone.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But he was also asked to
18 identify those men, just as you were.
19 A. I know, but he did not mention having seen someone.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
21 And my very last question concerns the 12-day period that you
22 spent in Donja Jablanica. During that period, how were you treated?
23 A. Normally.
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Well, of course, but I mean did
25 you have food to eat? Were you able to sleep? Everything was
1 appropriate, if I have understood you correctly?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Judge El Mahdi.
5 I just have a few questions to ask you by myself. Did you see
6 the dead body of your father, your grandfather, and your grandmother on
7 the 9th of September, that day?
8 A. No.
9 JUDGE LIU: Do you know how many BiH soldiers are there present
10 in that village on that day?
11 A. I saw three buses of them, as far as I can remember.
12 JUDGE LIU: So approximately 100, 150?
13 A. Perhaps others arrived later, but that's what I can remember.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
15 At this stage, are there any questions out of Judges' questions?
16 Mr. Weiner?
17 MR. WEINER: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
19 Mr. Morrissey?
20 MR. MORRISSEY: No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
22 Are there any documents to tender at this moment from both
23 parties? I see none.
24 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to
25 give your evidence. The usher will show you out of the room when she
1 pulls down the blinds. We all wish you a pleasant journey back home.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, since we still have 30 minutes left, I believe
5 that we should make the best use of this time. And there's some
6 procedural questions I would like to ask the parties.
7 The first one is about the Prosecution's witness list.
8 Mr. Weiner, would you please inform me that how many witnesses we
9 are going to hear this week.
10 MR. WEINER: We've heard the first, and then two more. One
11 should be another single-day witness, and then the third witness will be a
12 longer witness. A number of documents will be introduced through that
13 witness, and he'll be discussing a large number. And counsel indicated
14 that there would be more extensive cross-examination, so that witness
15 could drag into Monday.
16 JUDGE LIU: I see. I think we should make the best use of time
17 and try to finish that witness within this week, we hope.
18 Yes. As for the second witness on your list for the next week,
19 we understand that witness is a 92 bis witness.
20 MR. WEINER: That witness is currently on the 92 bis list, but
21 there has been no decision made as to whether or not he is in fact a
22 92 bis witness. And unless a decision is made, we would probably call him
24 JUDGE LIU: I see.
25 I see there's no objections from the Defence side to regard that
1 witness as a 92 bis witness, Mr. Morrissey.
2 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Your Honour, in relation to that witness --
3 JUDGE LIU: The second witness.
4 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, that's -- yes, Your Honour. We are awaiting
5 the decision in relation to him. We hadn't thought to object because we
6 were awaiting that decision. But he is a witness of -- who we would wish
7 to cross-examine. No matter what occurs, we would wish to cross-examine
9 JUDGE LIU: You wish to cross-examine this witness.
10 Well, is it possible we treat this witness as a 92 bis witness
11 with cross-examination? Which means that the direct examination will be
12 extremely short, only admit his statement.
13 MR. WEINER: As we told the Court, we were hoping to do more
14 witnesses either under 92 bis or 89(F) to move a number of witnesses
15 through, and that would be fine, if we could put together a statement and
16 talk to him -- finalise a statement on Monday.
17 JUDGE LIU: I see. Thank you very much.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, might by heard on that matter? We
20 understand what the Court said at an earlier stage to encourage the
21 Prosecution to take that course. There are some witnesses that we would
22 wish to object to that course being taken. The second, third, and sixth
23 witnesses on the list before you are all witnesses from the 9th Brigade,
24 are all controversial, and all feature in -- heavily in the case against
25 Mr. Halilovic in terms of notice.
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm afraid that we are not talking about the
2 same list.
3 The list I'm using is their filings from the Prosecution on the
4 1st of February, 2005.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.
6 JUDGE LIU: That will be the witness list for the next week.
7 MR. MORRISSEY: I believe I have -- I hope I have the same
9 MR. WEINER: I think the problem is, Your Honour, he -- the
10 witness was originally a 92 bis witness but was moved onto the regular
11 list, moved onto the live witness list. But we could try and probably do
12 him maybe under 89(F) or 92 bis, if we could move quick enough and get
13 enough information. Maybe get additional information and --
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
15 MR. WEINER: -- see what we could do.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, that is the area of controversy, and
18 it may be appropriate to hear a submission about it at another time or
19 now, or we could reduce it to writing, if that would assist the Court.
20 But with respect to -- to the witnesses I indicated, we would
21 want to make a submission against them being dealt with in any way
22 under 89 or under 92 bis. They are witnesses about whom there will be
23 controversy, to use the most neutral term available.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Maybe we could find another time to deal
25 with this issue in details.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
3 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, he seems to go to the acts of the
4 accused in -- which is the main part of his testimony. But it seems to be
5 a witness of very limited testimony; mainly in relation to certain acts of
6 the accused. So it's -- we're not talking about an extensive direct
8 JUDGE LIU: No. Yes, I think, you know, you make your own
9 strategy concerning with the witnesses, you know. Yes.
10 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
11 JUDGE LIU: The next issue is about the proofing notes. We
12 received proofing notes which is about five or six pages. I believe that,
13 you know, the Prosecution misunderstood the intention of this Bench, and
14 later on I believe that I only need one piece of paper which only listed
15 whatever the witness summary does not include. Which means that we
16 already have the summaries of the testimony of this witness already, but
17 when this witness comes to The Hague, he might say something which is out
18 of scope of that summary or changed his previous statement. We only want
19 an indication of that but not on that extensive, you know, scale.
20 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, the total proofing notes, there's three
21 pages, but they're really two -- a total of two pages. What happened is
22 when they were given in discovery, they -- they stapled proofing notes for
23 two different witnesses. So it's not a total of five pages. One is
24 really two pages and the other is pretty much two pages too.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, our intention is to reduce the paper as much as
1 possible because we have been flooded with all the motions and the papers
3 The last issue is about a new motion filed by the Prosecution and
4 ask for the leave to disclose about 14 documents under Rule 68 to the
5 Defence. Are you ready to discuss this issue?
7 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So I understand that those documents are all in
9 the B/C/S, not translated into English yet.
10 MR. SACHDEVA: That's correct, Your Honour. As I understand from
11 the Rules, the Prosecution does not have to translate documents that are
12 disclosable under Rule 68, but we will endeavour, of course, to do that if
13 you require us to do so.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, that may be a big problem, you know.
15 Let's hear Mr. Morrissey, you know, about that. Or Mr. Mettraux.
16 MR. METTRAUX: Good evening, Your Honour. Yes, as my learned
17 colleague from the Prosecution pointed out, the Rules don't provide for a
18 specific requirement for translation, but indeed as underlined by the
19 Prosecution and by yourself it is not very helpful for counsel in this
20 case to receive material in the Bosnian -- or B/C/S language, as neither
21 of us speak that language. We'd be very grateful indeed to the
22 Prosecution if we could be provided those documents in English and as soon
23 as possible.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
1 MR. SACHDEVA: Your Honour, the Prosecution can endeavour to do
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I hope, you know, any documents disclosed to
4 the other side could be translated into a language that the other party
5 could understand, taking into the consideration that this case may be very
6 short and those documents are 68 materials which might prove that the
7 accused is innocent.
8 I haven't, you know, looked at those documents yet, but I think
9 we should do everything possible to disclose any materials that is
10 favourable to the accused.
12 MR. METTRAUX: Another brief matter, Your Honour: On the face of
13 it, those documents appear to be relevant as a minimum and of potential
14 great importance if they are what they appear to be. And the Defence
15 would move to ask that witnesses to whom those documents could relate
16 should not be called by the Prosecution until that time when we have been
17 able to review all of those documents fully.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, those documents are 68 documents.
19 Any response from the Prosecution side? Which means that are you
20 going to use this document in the courtroom?
21 MR. SACHDEVA: No. The Prosecution has no intention of using
22 these documents, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.
24 So we'll make a decision as soon as possible for the disclosure
25 of those documents.
1 Is there anything else that the parties would like to bring to
2 the attention to this Bench?
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, there's one other matter that I
6 would seek to raise. The evidence of the witness just passed throws it
7 into sharp relief. That witness was in a position to give evidence about
8 the individual Celo, Ramiz Delalic. The nature of the cross-examination
9 of that witness proceeded in a state of anxious uncertainty as to whether
10 that witness, Mr. Delalic, will in fact appear. I didn't raise it as an
11 objection because I saw fit to proceed, and I -- that's my decision. But
12 it is a matter that may arise in a focussed form with other witnesses who
13 are coming soon; in particular, the witnesses indicated on the witness
14 list for next week.
15 It's for the Tribunal to make its own schedule as to delivering
16 those rulings, of course. But I just put on record that it creates some
17 dilemmas for the Defence as to whether that man is -- whether that witness
18 is to be called -- permitted to be called as a witness because the
19 structure of cross-examination may change in relation to these other
20 witnesses, depending upon the outcome of that. In other words, we may be
21 compelled to put certain matters to those witnesses.
22 So I raise that as an issue that's troubling the Defence. I
23 understand that all is being done that can be done. But it is -- it is a
24 live issue for us.
25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. We'll do our best to deliver
1 any rulings as soon as possible, as soon as possible. Yes.
2 And another issue is about video conference link. I've been
3 advised by the registrar that on the 9th and 10th of February we'll have
4 the video conference link. So we might stop the testimony of a witness in
5 the middle which we did not want to see that. So I hope maybe there's
6 some rearrangement of the witnesses, because those two days are set. They
7 must testify on that two days. If there's any changes of order of the
8 witnesses the Prosecution would like to call, I hope we could be informed
9 as early as possible as well as to the other party, the Defence.
10 Well, having said that, I believe that we'll adjourn until
11 tomorrow afternoon, 2.15 as usual.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.43 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of
14 February, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.