050210ED

Page 1

1 Thursday, 10 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Well, is there any matters that the parties would like to

10 mention?

11 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, there's one matter that the

12 Prosecution was kind enough to raise with me. It's been indicated by my

13 learned friend that the witness has some blood pressure and -- and

14 possibly anxiety problems. Can I indicate I have no difficulty with any

15 measure that the Prosecutor wants to take to minimise that stress, and --

16 if she needs breaks and so on, there won't be any need to ask for my

17 approval about it. We agree that it can be managed however it has to be.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

19 Yes, Ms. Chana.

20 MS. CHANA: I thank Mr. Morrissey for that. But there is one

21 other matter I will raise. During the -- the testimony of this particular

22 witness, there will be names which might be able to identify her, and that

23 will be the time I would be asking to go into closed session, Your

24 Honours.

25 JUDGE LIU: I see there's no problem for that. Yes.

Page 2

1 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no difficulty with that, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. This request is granted.

3 Well, could we have the witness, please.

4 [Witness testified via videolink]

5 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

7 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemnly declare -- solemn

8 declaration.

9 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Can we have it on the ELMO, please.

10 JUDGE LIU: Did you see the solemn declaration on the screen,

11 Witness?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

13 JUDGE LIU: Would you please read it.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

18 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, there's a technical hitch. Her picture

19 is not being scrambled. She's got protective measures, Your Honour.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, I was informed that we could see the image in

22 the courtroom but not outside.

23 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, there may have been a misunderstanding.

24 I had asked for facial distortion, but now we've already seen her face.

25 JUDGE LIU: No, no, no. It's only for the people in the

Page 3

1 courtroom.

2 MS. CHANA: Only for the people in the courtroom.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yeah, not outside.

4 MS. CHANA: It's not outside? Oh, that's all right then.

5 JUDGE LIU: We've already checked -- we've already checked --

6 MR. WEINER: The people in the public gallery.

7 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. That's the problem.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll check it.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I think the -- the situation has now

11 been --

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's start.

13 MS. CHANA: Yes. Thank you.

14 WITNESS: WITNESS C

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examined by Ms. Chana:

17 Q. Good morning, Witness.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Do you have a sheet of paper in front of you which is called your

20 pseudonym sheet?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Can you confirm that the name written there and the date of birth

23 written there are indeed yours?

24 A. Yes, they are there. That is correct.

25 MS. CHANA: That will be MFI165, Your Honours, and I would like

Page 4

1 to now tender it under seal.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 Any objections, Mr. Morrissey? Thank you very much.

4 It is admitted into the evidence.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P164, Your

6 Honours.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 MS. CHANA:

9 Q. Witness, can you please tell me first what date did you move to

10 Grabovica?

11 A. 1991.

12 Q. And where were you before you moved to Grabovica?

13 A. I lived in Capljina. I had an apartment there, but I was born in

14 Grabovica. Also, my husband was born there. It's my home town. So after

15 we retired, we returned to live in Grabovica.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, what was the ethnic composition of Grabovica in

17 1990, when you were there first?

18 A. Pure Croat Catholics. It was always like that in that village.

19 There were no other ethnic groups there.

20 Q. About how many families lived in Grabovica at that time?

21 A. On the left and the right bank in between us is the

22 Neretva River, the main road, the railroad. There were about 160

23 families, smaller or larger ones, but those were people who had always

24 lived there. There were also some new weekend homes that were being built

25 and so on. So I don't know exactly.

Page 5

1 Q. Now, did there ever come a time when this changed?

2 A. When do you mean?

3 Q. Well, when there was something which happened in the village

4 which changed this 100 per cent Croat inhabitants.

5 A. Before 1993, there was the war. I don't know -- let's say

6 against the Serbs and -- but we didn't really feel that war so much.

7 There were tensions. That's how it was. The road is there. Cars were

8 passing by. But we didn't really feel much until 1993. In 1993, in May,

9 on the 10th of May, the B and H army came, and then the changes started to

10 happen.

11 Q. What was the first change that you noticed?

12 A. The first change was on the 10th, when the army entered our

13 village.

14 Q. And this was the ABiH army, was it?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Yes. What happened?

17 A. We have a hydroelectric power station. They were guarding it.

18 This was done by the HVO, the Croat army, the police. However, the

19 B and H army came and took everything under control: The village, the

20 people, the power plant. And before that, when it was becoming more

21 dangerous, a lot of young people left with children. Many young people

22 went to Mostar, Herzegovina, to other safer places. Because we're in a

23 valley, and there is nobody who could defend us from anything there.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness. And how many people do you -- would you say

25 remained in that village after the younger people fled?

Page 10

1 that time.

2 A. Yes, I can. There were reinforcements in September, and their

3 name was something like Tigers, Wolves, Igman's Wolves. They had all

4 these different names. There were about 30 soldiers who lived in these

5 buildings which I marked, in these offices there belonging to the power

6 plant, below this house that belonged to me, in that direction.

7 Q. Do you know any of the soldiers themselves? Did you know anyone?

8 Could you tell us their names?

9 A. No. These were new soldiers who came from Sarajevo. But before,

10 those who were holding the whole of Grabovica under control were from the

11 nearby villages around Jablanica. They were familiar people. They were

12 holding the checkpoints. They walked around our houses on a daily basis.

13 There were a lot of soldiers around.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness.

15 A. And the most recent ones arrived ...

16 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me about these recent soldiers. Did

17 you know any names of these recent soldiers which arrived?

18 A. You mean the most recent ones?

19 Q. The most recent, yes, from Sarajevo.

20 A. No. No, I didn't. They all had nicknames, Perla, Derla, Juki,

21 Muki. I didn't know any of the names exactly. I only heard one being

22 called by name -- by the name Beca. He was missing three fingers. But he

23 was in our house so to say, but I don't know any of the others.

24 Q. And do you know who the leader of these soldiers were?

25 A. This first one was getting some food ready. They didn't have a

Page 11

1 lot of food. They were mentioning Zuka, and Zuka used to come. Once

2 Zuka's deputy appeared. I saw him on the road. Because, as you can see

3 for yourselves, my house is right next to the road. This person was

4 called -- I can't -- Nijaz or Nijad, and Celo -- once this large car

5 stopped in front and then this was this person. He was called Celo. It

6 was some kind of good car model. And this man was called Celo. Zuka

7 often used to come by though and speak with us civilians. Sefer -- well,

8 I'm not going to go on. Very well.

9 Q. Now, let's ask -- let me and you about Celo first. How did you

10 know it was Celo that -- when you saw him?

11 A. They mentioned it. They said, "Here's Celo. He's coming," and

12 they greeted him. And this was in front of my house, so -- I was afraid,

13 so I was really watching everything with my eyes very carefully. The

14 others were mentioning that as well. The road is there. Perhaps he was

15 on his way to Mostar on that occasion or -- not Mostar. Perhaps

16 Bijelo Polje.

17 Q. And where were these soldiers staying?

18 A. Like I indicated on the map, these offices which were like huts

19 where the employees of the Grabovica power plant used to work. That's

20 where they were staying. I can show it to you on the map.

21 Q. No, thank you, Witness. I was referring to these new soldiers

22 which came from Sarajevo. Where were they staying?

23 A. The new soldiers were there. The most recent ones weren't

24 anywhere. They were around -- they were put up around the different

25 houses. These were the most insolent ones who came.

Page 12

1 Q. Okay. I'll come to the insolent part later, but could you tell

2 us which homes were these soldiers put up in?

3 A. You mean these most -- most-recent soldiers or these ones who

4 were called Igman's Wolves?

5 In these offices; whereas, in the houses of Maric Marinko; the

6 others, Maric Pero. Most of them were accommodated on the western side.

7 But they were not there for long. All this took place from the 4th or

8 the 5th until the 9th.

9 Q. Now, did you hear from your -- the people who housed them how

10 they felt about these most-recent soldiers? I will call these most-recent

11 soldiers the Sarajevo soldiers. Is that okay with --

12 MR. MORRISSEY: It's not okay with the Defence, Your Honour. The

13 evidence might be given that that's where they're from by this witness.

14 And if it is, then terminology can be used. Right at the moment there's

15 no such evidence at all.

16 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, she's already said it, that the most

17 recent came from Sarajevo.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe you could ask that again to the witness.

19 MS. CHANA:

20 Q. Witness, these most recent ones you said which came, did they

21 come from Sarajevo or some other place, or did you say?

22 A. I couldn't tell you exactly, but when I mentioned Sarajevo

23 mostly, they came from up there, from Hadzici or Sarajevo. I know that

24 they came from the northern side, from that part. And the way they talked

25 was not the way our people talked where we lived. These were unknown

Page 13

1 people. To us they were masked, camouflaged with these red scarves or

2 something. They had all sorts of things they were wearing. All right.

3 Very well.

4 Q. Did you ever get to know who their -- their boss was, their

5 leader? You know, all soldiers have a leader.

6 A. Yes, we did find out. Right away rumours started that these were

7 Sefer's soldiers, and the first ones who were there before they arrived,

8 Cedo's Wolves, Igman's Wolves and whatever, they also said, "Sefer's

9 coming. Sefer's coming." And on one occasion I was preparing food to

10 welcome this Sefer, and I saw Sefer twice as he passed by in a car, and

11 the last time I saw him was on the 8th of May, when he went to see those

12 soldiers. He got out of the car on that occasion.

13 Q. Now, Sefer who, Witness?

14 A. Halilovic.

15 Q. Did you know who he was before you saw him?

16 A. I had heard of him, but I didn't know him before and I wanted to

17 meet him on that occasion. I didn't talk to him. I didn't know him

18 personally, but I saw the way the soldiers greeted him. I heard how they

19 addressed him, and I knew that this was it.

20 Q. And how did they address him?

21 A. They raised their hands in greeting. They had a special

22 greeting. Oh, something like "Allahu Akbar" or something like that.

23 Q. And in what context -- you'd said you'd known about him. In what

24 context had you known about Sefer Halilovic?

25 A. A lot of soldiers used to come to my house and to the other house

Page 14

1 as well, because at that time we had electric power. The rest of the

2 village didn't have electricity. So we made coffee in my house, and what

3 food there was was cooked in my house. Nobody had much, but what was

4 there was was shared. The soldiers came to take baths in my bathroom and

5 asked to have their laundry washed. And so I heard what they were saying

6 and I knew quite a lot. When Zuka came to visit them, Zuka talked to me

7 as well. He asked me if I was all right. I said I was. He asked if

8 anyone was mistreating me, and I said no. But I lived in dreadful fear.

9 I alone know how afraid I was and everybody else in the village.

10 Q. I'll go back to my question, Witness, and -- which was: In what

11 context did you know about Halilovic? What was said about him for you to

12 know about him and want to meet him?

13 A. Want to meet him?

14 Q. I believe you said that you knew he was there and you wanted

15 to -- to greet him. Or what did you say?

16 A. I didn't say I wanted to greet him, but a soldier came from among

17 those first soldiers who were put up in those offices down there, and this

18 soldier brought some liver to me and said, "Fry this by 7.00 p.m. Sefer

19 Halilovic is coming." I didn't fry it right away. It was only 2.00. I

20 wanted it to be fresh. I was going to fry it at 6.00 so that the food

21 would be better. But he arrived at 6.00, and I said it wasn't ready

22 because he arrived earlier. And they said, "He's not coming tonight.

23 He'll come next -- the next evening. Don't fry the liver." And then

24 later on they changed their minds and said, "Oh, fry it. We'll eat it and

25 tomorrow we'll find something else."

Page 15

1 On the next day, I was in that little house of mine, the first

2 house. A car stopped. A man got out. Two others came out with him, and

3 people greeted him. They addressed him as "Sefer," and he went to see

4 those soldiers. That was on the 5th of September. And they mentioned him

5 a lot throughout those four months. When the army entered Grabovica, his

6 name was mentioned.

7 Q. And when they mentioned him, what did they say about him? Who

8 was he? Did you know?

9 A. They said only nice things about him. They said he was coming

10 and they would talk about what villages they had taken. I once heard them

11 talking that they had received 1.000 marks for capturing two villages.

12 That was what the ordinary soldiers said, the privates. I didn't know

13 their names. I had a large living room, and they would sit there. It was

14 already August when the refugees arrived from Capljina and they consorted

15 with the refugee girls, the Muslim girls, and they talked about all this

16 and I listened to everything they said. I was cooking, laying the table.

17 The soldiers would come and go. They would go to take up their shifts and

18 come back. And I listened to everything they were saying. They spoke

19 well of Sefer. He was their superior. Zuka was their superior. Zuka was

20 a very nice man. He was very friendly. He greeted me in a Muslim way.

21 He didn't say good morning, and I didn't know how to reply to that because

22 it's not my religion, but he was a very polite man, a man who had good

23 manners. That's all I can say.

24 Q. Now, Witness, you were talking about these soldiers being put

25 into these homes across the river from you. I was -- I had asked you: Do

Page 16

1 you know what they felt about these soldiers being put into their homes?

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, could I just raise a matter there?

3 There are no strict rules against hearsay at this Tribunal, and I

4 acknowledge that. But to ask what these people felt is becoming too

5 speculative. What would be permissible, in the circumstances, is to ask

6 what they said.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

8 MS. CHANA:

9 Q. Witness, these -- these people whose homes you said the soldiers

10 were accommodated in, did they say anything to you about them?

11 A. I'll tell you. When they came to the west bank of the river,

12 these civilians were not allowed to move around a lot. Marinko Maric, who

13 is a relative of mine, came from the other side. He was barely 50 years

14 old. He was an educated man, an engineer, and he said to me, (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted) He had a big house. He said, "Some soldiers have arrived.

17 They are making our lives miserable. They are shooting, singing,

18 shouting, yelling. I don't know how we're going to survive all this."

19 He came to me because the soldiers on my side of the river, the

20 ones I was cooking for and in contact with, he came to ask whether they

21 could protect them. That was at 4.00 in September. It was on the 8th of

22 September. Marinko's face was black. I said, "I'll try."

23 I addressed Beco. And I said, "Beco, some nasty people have come

24 there to stay with civilians," and he said, "I have nothing to do with

25 that. There's nothing I can do about it." Marinko went home, and at

Page 17

1 11.00 in the evening both he and his wife and his father and mother were

2 killed. And to this very day their bones have not been found. They were

3 killed on the meadow near their house.

4 Q. Witness, I will talk about people at another time so -- as to who

5 got killed, if that's all right with you, but for now I would like to take

6 you through the -- what you saw and what you --

7 A. Very well.

8 Q. -- heard first.

9 A. Are you asking me about that day?

10 Q. Yes. I'm now going to ask you: Could you tell us what happened?

11 Do you remember the 7th of September?

12 A. When those soldiers came to that bank, some of them crossed over

13 to our bank sometimes, and you couldn't know who was who and where they

14 were coming from among the soldiers. As soon as they arrived there, you

15 could hear shooting. I'm not saying they were shooting at people. I

16 don't know what they were shooting at. There were bullets going into the

17 lake. Perhaps they were shooting into the air. There was shouting,

18 yelling, singing. They were very rowdy. And this started on the 7th.

19 On the 8th in the evening, as my house was facing those houses on

20 the other bank, I heard when I lay down in the evening and the refugees

21 were lying down in my house -- there were four families. Some I knew from

22 before. They had worked in the same company as I in Capljina. And I

23 heard women screaming on the other bank. I heard a woman screaming, "My

24 God, what's the matter with you people? What have I done to any of you?"

25 (redacted)

Page 18

1 And then I heard another woman's house, but I couldn't tell who the woman

2 was. And I couldn't sleep. I could see that something bad was going to

3 happen.

4 When I got up in the morning, a refugee woman arrived from another

5 part of my house, a Muslim house, and she said, "Did you hear anything

6 last night?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "I didn't sleep either."

7 And this woman said, "You could hear shooting." And I said, "Yes." That

8 was what I heard that night.

9 And on the following morning, that was the 9th.

10 Q. So what happened on the 9th in the morning when you got up?

11 A. When I got up in the morning, a guard arrived. He kept guard on

12 the bridge that's on the photograph. And he called out to my husband. He

13 called him by name. This was a man from another village, and we knew him,

14 and he called my husband by name and he asked if we were still alive. And

15 he said, "Yes." And we asked him what was the matter, and he said, "Ivan

16 Frano was taken away last night." This was a Muslim. And it seems that

17 they were killed on the bridge. And these people lived in a house just a

18 little higher up than our house across the garden, and we got frightened.

19 And this man said to us, "Don't leave your house." And then he went about

20 his business. And I am grateful to him.

21 Q. Did some -- thank you, Witness. Did somebody else come to your

22 house that morning?

23 A. And then a soldier came to our house at about 9.00. I can't be

24 very precise about the time. We got up. The sun was shining. These

25 women were there with me. And then I went to the new house. I was always

Page 19

1 going back and forth. We lived in the little house, but -- because there

2 was more room there for the refugees.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted). I want to have some coffee."

5 We didn't have any coffee. We roasted wheat, and that's what we made

6 coffee with.

7 I went to the kitchen. I said, "I have a little. We'll share

8 it." I shared out a little of the coffee. I poured some for him and some

9 for myself. He was very young. He stayed outside with those girls and

10 the women in my courtyard. And I said to him, "Here's a little coffee. I

11 haven't got much." There was no sugar at all. He said, "If I manage to

12 get some sugar, Auntie, I'll bring you some," and then he left.

13 I saw that the refugees had suddenly become afraid. A girl

14 called out to me. She asked me to go behind the house, and she said, "He

15 told me that Croats had been killed on the other bank. I'm going to

16 Jablanica" - that's 13 kilometres away from us - "to call people we knew,"

17 Ibro and Meho, to see if they can save you and your husband. I couldn't

18 go. It was very far. She said she would go there on foot to call the

19 police.

20 They set out, and a doctor --

21 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but if you will please -- firstly, as

22 you've asked for protective measures, not say your own name. And please

23 be mindful of talking about yourself.

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. And other names which might identify you. That's why I will ask

Page 20

1 you about names later, Witness.

2 A. All right.

3 Q. And secondly, I would like to go back to the soldier. And if you

4 could just answer my questions, it will be faster. It will be -- the

5 Judges will be able to understand you better.

6 Now, let's go back to this soldier, Witness, who came to you.

7 A. All right.

8 Q. After that, did he say anything else to you?

9 A. Not that soldier, no. He didn't say anything else to me.

10 Q. Was there another soldier --

11 A. But it was another --

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Yes. At around 11.00.

14 Q. What happened?

15 A. He came to my house. He looked afraid. He mentioned my name.

16 He called me Auntie. And he said, "I have to kill you." And I said, "My

17 son," and he said, "Why are you a Croat? Go and put on pantaloons if you

18 want me to save you." Then I borrowed some pantaloons. You know what

19 pantaloons are. And I put them on. And my husband hid in the cupboard.

20 A refugee who lived with us hid him in the cupboard.

21 Q. And why did he want you to wear pantaloons?

22 A. What I understood him to mean is that if I put on pantaloons, he

23 wouldn't. He left and he didn't harm me in any way. He saw that I was

24 terrified. And then he didn't come back anymore.

25 Q. Which -- women of which ethnicity wear pantaloons, Witness?

Page 21

1 A. Muslims. Only one or two elderly women who came from Capljina

2 wore pantaloons, because in Herzegovina, in Capljina, nobody wore

3 pantaloons. It's only in Bosnia that Muslim women wear pantaloons.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness.

5 Now, can you tell me what happened to you next.

6 A. After all this you mean?

7 Q. Yes. Now, you said --

8 A. These two girls went to Jablanica.

9 Q. Could you also tell us the date. Is it the next day or the same

10 day?

11 A. The 9th.

12 Q. Yes, what happened on the 9th?

13 A. On the 9th -- all of this happened on the 9th.

14 Q. Yes. Did you stay in your house on the 9th that night?

15 A. No.

16 Q. What happened?

17 A. Further -- further, the police arrived from Jablanica, and just before

18 dusk they called my husband by name. This man said -- the man who was

19 staying in my house, he said, "He's not here." But when they mentioned

20 his name, this man, he had a white armband. Then he went out of the

21 cupboard, and he said, "Get ready. Somebody will come to pick you up.

22 You're going to Jablanica."

23 I asked this man -- I said there was a woman who had no leg and a

24 man who had no leg and two bedridden old people above my house. I asked

25 him not to leave them behind but to take them too. And that's what

Page 22

1 happened.

2 There were many, many soldiers around our house. Both those who

3 had arrived 20 days before for whom I had cooked. They were around our

4 houses. They had already brought down the livestock belonging to the

5 people they had first expelled from their houses, my brother, my sister,

6 my cousins. These were all elderly people. (redacted)

7 (redacted) He wanted to be with us. And

8 a soldier came along and said, "No, no. Go away. Go away." And those

9 who had left on foot, two of them had already been killed on the road.

10 And somebody arrived, about 10 -- an FAP truck arrived and they put us

11 onto it. This was at around 5.00. It was beginning to grow dark, and

12 they took us to the camp in Jablanica.

13 There was a woman, 82 years old. She had no children, and a

14 soldier said to me, "Come and call her to come with us." She wouldn't

15 listen to me. I asked her to go, and she said she wouldn't. This woman

16 lived a little way above my house. She said she didn't have any sons who

17 were soldiers, that she had not done anything to anyone, and she wouldn't

18 leave, and I heard then that she also had been killed. Her name was Mara.

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 23

1 (redacted)

2 A. Very well. There was an FAP truck standing there. There was no

3 fuel then at that time or cars or anything. This was all open, and the

4 bedridden people were carried on blankets. The car stopped and three of

5 us got out to push it, the three of us who were younger. And next to the

6 road I saw a woman who had been in front of my house an hour and a half

7 before that. I saw her lying in the channel, and she was dead. One side

8 of her head was bloody. She was wearing a sheepskin coat. If I can say

9 her name, I will.

10 Q. Yes, say her name. Who was it? Just the name you can say.

11 A. Ilka Miletic. Ilka Miletic.

12 Q. And whether did you say -- could you please tell us the exact

13 location that you saw her. And I'd like you to look at this picture

14 again, please. And if you can identify where you saw her, if it's

15 possible from MFI -- it's an exhibit now, isn't it?

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] P165. P165.

18 MS. CHANA: Could I ask the court deputy to tell me what exhibit

19 number this is, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] P165.

21 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution Exhibit P165.

22 MS. CHANA: P165, Your Honour.

23 Q. Would it be possible, Witness, to say where in that picture you

24 saw Ilka Miletic?

25 JUDGE LIU: Let's go to the private session.

Page 26

1 us." She told me that she didn't want to go, that she didn't give birth

2 to any children, she's not to be blamed or guilty for anything, and she

3 did not want to leave her hearth. So she left -- she was left by herself

4 in the village. And I heard that she was killed within the hour and

5 burned in her house. And this was told by the Muslim person who lived in

6 the house across from her, and his wife was so afraid that she fled to a

7 different place. She was afraid to sleep up there. This is the woman

8 whose husband it was.

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted) He wanted to stay with

12 us. They also told him, "Go. Go," the soldiers. "You don't have any

13 right to stay." He didn't have a jacket. He was only wearing his shirt.

14 He was cold. He was carrying a small bag with his medicines inside. And

15 maybe some 500 metres further up from Ilka is where he was killed.

16 Q. Did you ever hear how he was killed and by whom; do you know?

17 A. The same soldiers. And it's most likely that they had crossed

18 over via the bridge on the map from that western side and they had

19 followed the civilians who were going to Jablanica along the road, and

20 then first they encountered Ilka. Then they met him and my sister. This

21 sister died, was walking in front of them with her husband, and he called

22 out, "Wait for me," but they had heard that one rifle shot had been fired.

23 Then they had heard another one. And then he fell on the road. And this

24 is something that my sister told me when we came to the camp. That was

25 that same evening of the 9th.

Page 27

1 Q. Did you --

2 A. After two days -- after two days, we were in the camp. Two

3 guards came who had been on duty at the dam, our acquaintances from

4 Jablanica, they expressed their condolences to me and they said, "There he

5 is, next to the dam by the road dead. What are we going to do with him?"

6 I asked my husband -- I returned to the camp, and he said, "If they can

7 bury him somewhere so that he doesn't get eaten by livestock." However,

8 he was half burned and like that, so they buried him secretly at night so

9 that the soldiers wouldn't see him. They brought him to our house, to our

10 garden.

11 Q. Could you clarify when you said somebody fell after the two

12 shots. Who fell?

13 A. My sister who was walking in front of them. She saw it. She

14 wasn't killed. She thought well of saying that her son was in the B and H

15 army. So she came out all right, and her husband too. But when there was

16 a shot, she said there were two soldiers walking and there was one shot

17 and then another shot and then he fell on his back because he was walking

18 along the road. And that's where they found him.

19 Q. And this would be Ivan Mandic; right?

20 A. Yes. Yes. And then there were these refugees.

21 Can I continue?

22 Q. No, you can in a minute, but I would like you to answer me

23 whether you've seen Ivan Mandic again. Did you ever see his body?

24 A. The refugees who were in my house at night, so that nobody would

25 know, they brought him back and they buried him so that nobody would know,

Page 28

1 under an apple tree near our house. And a Muslim man, our neighbour, came

2 to us in the camp -- to the camp from Capljina, and he said what to do.

3 But we didn't dare do anything because of this Becir, so that he's not

4 blamed for doing anything.

5 And then only 1994, on the 5th of September, he was exhumed. His

6 daughters did that together with IFOR. They came, took him to Split.

7 They called me to go from as well. I saw that shirt, just an end of the

8 shirt. There was some -- a part of his arm, his teeth. I felt faint. I

9 went back. I couldn't look at that anymore. His daughters recognised

10 him. And those medicines, that little bag that he had with him, that was

11 all found on him and it was all buried together with him. So that's what

12 they found with him. He was buried in Mostar, but then later he was

13 transferred to Grabovica to be next to his wife, who had died before the

14 war. All of this is the truth, Your Honours. I know everything about

15 this.

16 Q. Yes. Thank you, Witness. What I want to do now is to show you a

17 list.

18 MS. CHANA: Could the list of the Grabovica victims please be

19 placed, which is P97.

20 Q. Witness, can I explain to you what I would like you to do,

21 please. I would like you to look through this list, and we'll take each

22 name at a time. And I would like you to tell the Court, please, in the

23 briefest of terms whether you knew such a person and -- and whatever

24 question -- what the circumstances of your knowledge about them, and

25 whether you have seen them again. It will become clear as we take name by

Page 29

1 name. Is that all right?

2 Can we go to the first name, Witness, please.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What's the name, the first name there?

5 A. Pero Culjak.

6 Q. Do you know him?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. Yes. Could you tell -- tell me about Pero, when you last saw him

9 and whether you've seen him again since the last time you saw him. Those

10 are the two questions I'd like you to answer, please, in respect of each

11 witness, each one that we -- on the list.

12 A. Pero Culjak lived on the west side in another village. He's the

13 father-in-law of a person that we know from Grabovica. Fourteen days

14 before that, Pero and his wife were brought in front of our houses in a

15 car and his son -- her son-in-law took them to his place so that they

16 wouldn't be alone. These young people had left, so they didn't want them

17 to be alone. So they lived in Grabovica opposite my house on the western

18 side, him and his wife with their daughter and son-in-law.

19 Q. Would the wife be --

20 A. I saw him 12 days before that and never again.

21 Q. Is the wife the next one on the list, Matija?

22 A. She was with him, and she was taken to her daughter, and it all

23 ended in the same way for her as it did for him.

24 Q. Which way was that? How did it end? What do you mean that it

25 all ended?

Page 30

1 A. I mean that five of them were killed over there in one house, and

2 these children who saw them saw them dead. And this son-in-law of theirs,

3 Josip, ended dying in a very cruel way. Five of them were in the house.

4 They were killed in the house, and then later the house was torched.

5 Q. So you've not seen either Pero or Matija again; is that correct?

6 A. I did not see any of those victims from the other side, and I

7 have heard a lot of evidence.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 MS. CHANA:

11 Q. Now, when did you hear, Witness, that these people had been

12 killed?

13 A. We heard that they were killed on the 9th when these -- this

14 soldier told these Muslim refugees who had come to my house. But I didn't

15 know everybody by name until we had all come together again in the camp.

16 Then this person came from somewhere and they said this and this. And

17 then this Marinko came, Marinko Dreznjak. And until Goran Zadro came also

18 who saw those victims. Goran and Zoran, that's two brothers. One of them

19 used to come over here, and I don't know the other one. And his parents

20 were killed too.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness. Can we just go down the list. 3 and 4,

22 Cvitan and Jela, do you see them? Number 3 and 4 on the list.

23 A. Yes, I do. Cvitan Lovric and Jela.

24 Q. And where were they living?

25 A. They lived in the same place where Pero Culjak and Luca lived,

Page 31

1 and that's where their lives ended too.

2 Q. And when was the last time you saw them?

3 A. I saw them 12 days before that because he had brought a cow to

4 our village so -- to breed with a bull, and then they went back to their

5 house, and I had heard from two soldiers that she was in the house and

6 that -- when those two soldiers left the house, the house was burned and

7 nobody ever saw them again. I heard some of this only once I had arrived

8 at the camp on the left side. That's as much as I can say about the two

9 of them.

10 Q. Were you informed when it was that they were killed? Do you

11 know? Just the date.

12 A. Much later afterwards. It was around the 15th of that same

13 month, in September.

14 Q. Okay. Can we now go to number 5. You've already talked about 5

15 and 6. You've talked about 7.

16 Can I take you to 8, please.

17 A. Yes. Anica Pranjic, yes.

18 Q. Do you -- do you know this person, Anica Pranjic?

19 A. Yes, Anica Pranjic, she didn't have children. She lived on our

20 eastern side. But this Josip Brekalo who had brought his mother-in-law

21 and father-in-law, he also took her to his house. I had seen her ten days

22 before that, because she's Josip's aunt, and she was in that house

23 together with Josip Brekalo.

24 Q. What happened --

25 A. And let's say that we have finished with Luca and Pero Culjak and

Page 32

1 his wife.

2 Q. What happened to Anica Pranjic; do you know?

3 A. I think that she was killed together with these other five

4 people, Culjak Matija and Culjak Pero.

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, might I raise a matter here, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they were living together

7 in one house.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, as I indicated earlier on, I

9 understand there's no objection to hearsay as such in this case. But

10 asking a witness what she knows conceals the level of hearsay that we find

11 ourselves at, and that can be a matter of importance. So that if it's to

12 be indicated whether -- that this witness knows how somebody died, then it

13 ought to be made quite clear - in fairness to the witness as well as to

14 the Defence, frankly - what the basis of her knowledge is. It's a simple

15 question that can be asked. There may be no difficult answer. But it

16 ought to be clarified before the witness says what she knows, where she

17 heard it.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think that is a reasonable request.

19 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE LIU: But, on the other hand, the Defence has the full

21 opportunity to ask this question during the cross-examination, which is

22 try to clarify something which is not clear in the direct.

23 But anyway, if possible, Ms. Chana could make sure whether it's

24 direct evidence or the hearsay evidence by asking some questions to this

25 witness.

Page 33

1 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 MS. CHANA:

4 Q. Witness, we were talking about --

5 Oh, sorry.

6 JUDGE LIU: And could I know how long your direct examination

7 will last, Ms. Chana?

8 MS. CHANA: I have ten more names, Your Honour. If the

9 witness --

10 JUDGE LIU: You mean -- you mean another five minutes will be

11 okay?

12 MS. CHANA: Well, I'm hoping, yes, five to ten minutes maximum,

13 Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.

15 MS. CHANA: Thank you.

16 Q. Witness, can you tell us, if you know, and who told you what

17 happened to Anica Pranjic.

18 A. This young man, Goran, said that he had seen her dead in

19 Brekalo's house. They lived all together with them. On the 8th I heard

20 wails from -- wailing from that house. But I didn't see those victims,

21 and then later it turned out that this young boy had seen that, and this

22 Marinko Dreznjak also heard from some soldier that they had been killed in

23 that house. That's about it. Later when we came to the camp, it was the

24 same thing. It was said that all five in the Brekalo house were killed,

25 and those five include Anica Pranjic. There's nothing more that I can

Page 34

1 say.

2 Q. Now, Witness, what I would like you to tell the Court every time

3 I ask you a name is who told you about this. Because I know you did not

4 see it yourself, so you have to tell us every time who is it who told you.

5 Now, in Anica Pranjic's case, who told you?

6 A. This Goran told me that he had seen them, Zadro, and that she was

7 with them. I have nothing further to add.

8 Q. All right. Can I take you to Franjo Ravlic, number 9 on the

9 list, please.

10 A. Yes, we can.

11 Q. Can you tell me about this person, please. Do you know her -- or

12 him, rather?

13 A. Franjo Ravlic -- Franjo Ravlic, these are all relatives. He came

14 to me at 5.00 in the evening to take some tea. He went home.

15 Q. What date was this, please?

16 A. But a woman came, a Muslim woman who lived at his house, and she

17 told me such-and-such a thing, "I am feeling sick. Franjo and Ivan Saric

18 were taken away last night, and it seems very likely that they had been

19 killed up on the bridge." Franjo was found in the water in the lake three

20 months later, and this Ivan, he was never found, and I don't have any more

21 to say about them.

22 Q. And Ivan is number 10, right, Ivan Saric on the list?

23 A. Yes, that's the person who was with him. They never found him;

24 whereas, Franjo was found in the lake.

25 Q. And do you know who it is who told you this?

Page 35

1 A. These are my neighbours, so his children told me. I was at the

2 funeral of -- for Franjo.

3 Q. And --

4 A. When he was being brought from Mostar to Grabovica, to the

5 cemetery there.

6 Q. Okay. Now I will take you to 13 and 14, Josip and Luca Brekalo.

7 Can you very briefly tell me whether you know them and if you know what

8 happened to them and how you know it.

9 A. Yes, I knew them, husband and wife. They lived on the other side

10 towards my house. He waved to me in the evening of the 8th, called me by

11 name, said, "Ciao," and they were all together, the five of them with this

12 Culjak. Luca is the daughter of Pero Culjak. The daughter of Luca and

13 Pero Culjak is Luca also, and Josip is the son-in-law, and then Anica,

14 this was all in one house.

15 Q. What happened to them?

16 A. I told you before that I had heard wailing from that house and

17 they were killed. And a refugee, a Muslim woman told me later, who

18 visited me in the camp, that the house had been burned, and I don't know

19 anything more about that but that's how it was.

20 Q. Do you know the name of this Muslim woman?

21 A. And these children saw these victims.

22 Yes, I do. Edinka.

23 Q. I'm sorry, Witness, I may be appearing like I'm being repetitive,

24 but I just simply want to go down the list for good order. So you don't

25 have to answer at any great length.

Page 36

1 Can I take you to 15, 16, and 17. These are the Dreznjaks. Can

2 you also now briefly tell me about them and what happened to them and how

3 you know what happened to them.

4 A. I knew them. They lived in the direction of my house. Only the

5 River Neretva divided us. We would call out to each other. At 1.00 in

6 front of the house I saw the daughter of this person and his wife, but

7 later I heard that they had been killed. And that's how it is. The

8 daughter was found, but the two old people were not found. She was

9 exhumed. Dragica was the daughter. Mara was the mother. Andrija

10 Dreznjak, that was Mara's husband. And there's nothing more I can say.

11 Q. And who told you about this? Could you just tell us this,

12 please, about the Dreznjaks.

13 A. When we got there to the camp, we learned that right away. There

14 were Muslims there, our neighbours who gave evidence, they were horrified

15 and they regretted what had happened.

16 Q. Can I now take you to number 31 and 32 on the list, which is

17 Zivko and Ljuba Dreznjak. Could you tell us about them with the same

18 fashion, please, Witness.

19 A. They were killed in front of their house, and there was some

20 manure in front of the house and they covered them up a bit with the

21 manure. He was mentally ill. He had a beard down to his waist. His wife

22 was there as well. His son was driven away, and he heard the shots. And

23 they were found there and buried. I can't remember how much time had gone

24 by. About a year, I think. Their son --

25 Q. And -- who told you about the fact they had been killed?

Page 37

1 A. Their son told me, and I went to the funeral. They were my

2 closest neighbours. I can't say anymore.

3 Q. And the last -- there's just one last -- there's number 33. I

4 think this particular one, Witness, you told the -- the lawyer during

5 proofing who's with you that he had in fact died in July.

6 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I have already indicated this to the

7 Defence.

8 Q. Is that correct, Witness?

9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. It has nothing to do with the events of this

10 month.

11 Q. And just the last question, now, Witness: All these people that

12 we have talked about from this list, did they all -- could you tell us

13 which period they died in, the date?

14 A. All of the people we have just talked about except for Jela

15 Lovric and Cvitan - they were killed a bit later - but all the others in

16 August and September, with the exception of Jozo Istuk. It was all in

17 those two days and two nights; that is, there was a night and a day and

18 another day, all these others. I'm sure of that. I know them all. Half

19 of them were related to me.

20 Q. I want to thank you very much, Witness. I'm not going to

21 question you any further.

22 MS. CHANA: And thank you very much.

23 Your Honour, we can take the break.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's high time for us to take a break, and

25 we'll resume at ten minutes past 11.00, about a 30 minutes' break.

Page 38

1 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.

3 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination?

4 Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm just waiting for an image to appear

7 on the screen and then I'll commence.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:

9 Q. Could the witness just excuse me whilst we get a -- an image on

10 the screen.

11 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I apologise.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's on my screen already.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, it now -- I now have it.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 Q. Thank you. My name is Morrissey, and I am the counsel appearing

18 for Mr. Halilovic, and I have some questions for you firstly about the

19 state of affairs in the village in the time before the soldiers from the

20 north came to that village. Okay?

21 Now, you've indicated that after the time that the Bosnian army

22 took over the village, there were soldiers present on a daily basis. Is

23 that right?

24 A. Yes. Not a lot. There were soldiers at checkpoints, standing

25 guard on the bridge, on the dam, and also they would pass through.

Page 39

1 Q. And those soldiers, as you understood it, had as a commander a

2 man known as Zuka; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And as far as you could see, this commander called Zuka made

5 efforts to cause good relations between his soldiers and the village; is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes, more or less. He didn't do anything special. Zuka would

8 leave and the soldiers, like any soldiers, would go through the houses,

9 would take what they wanted, food, clothing. That's what war is like. It

10 wasn't brilliant, but you could live. We didn't move around much. We

11 didn't leave the yard of our house, and that's how it was.

12 Q. Yes. And you were put in the difficult position of having to

13 find a way of living with the young men who were the soldiers in Zuka's

14 army; is that correct?

15 A. Yes. But they didn't sleep in our house. They were billeted in

16 some offices belonging to the hydroelectric power plant. That's where

17 they stayed. That's where they lived. And then Jablanica and Grabovica

18 were 12 kilometres apart, and soldiers would often come by car. They

19 would change shifts, and that's what it -- what happened. They would come

20 to the houses to ask us to do things for them. Not everybody in the

21 village. I was especially exposed because my house was close to the

22 hydroelectric power plant and that's why we had electricity, so that I

23 could cook, I could bake things, and so on.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. And is it the fact that Zuka made available to

25 you medical services and a doctor who came once a week to the

Page 40

1 hydroelectric plant?

2 A. Yes, he came. I even knew what his name was. He would come to

3 the hydroelectric power plant every week, to the offices there, and we

4 could go and have a checkup, have our blood pressure measured. And I

5 would see Zuka. We didn't have any transportation to Jablanica. He said

6 he would arrange a bus, but nothing happened. There was no bus.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Just a very quick side question: Did you know

8 people who lived up in the village of Diva Grabovica?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Who -- do you remember the names of any of those people?

11 A. I remember Sevko Sejic. He was a local villager. And then a

12 brother-in-law of his came. I don't know what his name was. They lived

13 there and they had livestock. Sevko Sajic was a forester. There were two

14 families living there. It wasn't far from us. Previously it was a purely

15 Muslim hamlet. But 20 or 30 years ago they all left. They would only

16 come from time to time to work on the land. But Sevko lived there. What

17 do I know? He would visit our village as well, and Sevko wasn't an

18 acquaintance of ours. He acted as if -- I mean, Sevko stopped acting as

19 if he knew us. He began acting as if he didn't know us at all.

20 Q. I see. Did you go up to Diva Grabovica in this -- in the months

21 of July, August, or September?

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. I didn't go far from my house from May to September. I didn't go

25 anywhere.

Page 41

1 Q. Okay. I understand. Now, I have some questions about the

2 soldiers who came to the village in the days and weeks before the killings

3 that happened. Did -- I think you've indicated this, but I'll ask you to

4 be clear: Did a group called Cedo's Wolves come to stay in the village

5 about 20 days or so before the incidents?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I see. And you've already told us this, that those soldiers,

8 Cedo's Wolves, indicated to you that they knew the name Sefer Halilovic

9 and, I think you said, they quite liked him. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And, in fact, some of them at one stage told you that Sefer was

12 coming; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, on the 5th of September, did another group of soldiers

15 called the Handzar Division arrive in the area?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did they have a leader called Dziki?

18 A. There were so many nicknames. But as this was on the west bank

19 and I was on the east bank of the river, I couldn't tell you what their

20 names were. They all had nicknames, Riki, Briki [phoen]. I can't even

21 recall them all.

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Nobody had a real name.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. In any event, you've indicated here in this

25 Tribunal that on the 5th the soldiers from Cedo's Wolves provided you with

Page 42

1 some liver to cook, and you've indicated what you did in relation to that

2 liver. Now, could I just ask you some questions about that, please.

3 First of all, do you clearly recall that it was liver that was

4 provided?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And you've given us some detail about the delay before you

7 cooked that liver. So I take it you've got a clear memory that it was

8 liver; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you've indicated too that there were -- there was a false

11 start in the sense that the -- the soldiers told you Sefer was coming,

12 then they told you he wasn't coming, and then ultimately something

13 happened at 6.00; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. What happened was that he didn't come.

17 Q. Yes. Now, you have spoken to a Prosecutor in Sarajevo yesterday;

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that was a man named Manoj Sachdeva; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Yes. Okay. And when you spoke to him, you knew it was very

23 important to tell the truth to him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And --

Page 43

1 A. He told me that.

2 Q. Yes, of course. And you made every effort to tell him the truth

3 and you did tell him the truth; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, I'm just going to read to you what we've been provided with

6 from the Prosecutor as to that, and I quote this, and you were speaking

7 about Sefer Halilovic here, and this is the quote: "The last time I saw

8 him prior to the massacre was on the 5th of September, 1993 in the

9 afternoon. I was peeking outside my window at my house when I saw some

10 soldiers in a jeep arriving. Sefer Halilovic got down from the jeep and

11 the car went on. And the jeep seemed to be very old."

12 Now, that --

13 A. It was dirty, so I can't say.

14 Q. Okay. I understand. That's okay. But the facts that I've read

15 out to you that you told the Prosecutor are true; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, can I go on to another topic, please, and that is the 7th --

18 I want to move now forward to the 7th of -- of September. Okay?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, on the 7th of September -- and I just want to be clear so

21 that you -- so that you're not confused by my questions and so that we're

22 speaking the same language effectively. What you say is that the -- the

23 violence and killings commenced on the 8th and continued into the 9th of

24 September; is that correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 44

1 Q. Thank you. Now I'm speaking to you about the 7th, so you

2 understand that's the day before the trouble happened.

3 Now --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- looking out from your window in your house on the left bank of

6 the Neretva, did you notice three buses led by a jeep driving into the

7 village on the right bank, on the other bank from you?

8 A. I didn't observe the buses because for the most part these

9 soldiers arrived in the evening. I didn't always dare look out, but I did

10 see a jeep on that side and I saw that large numbers of soldiers were

11 around. I didn't see the buses. Whether they stopped above the bridge, I

12 don't know.

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted), Your Honour.

21 The basis of the objection is that it's misleading the witness and to the

22 extent that she is told there's evidence from him and there isn't. And

23 it's a statement and it's not evidence in this court.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think that the word "evidence" means

25 that the evidence has already been admitted into the evidence in this

Page 47

1 seen to be curious or to be paying too much attention to the soldiers?

2 A. Yes. But the house of that witness is on that side, on the east

3 bank, and he could see the buses because they were passing in front of his

4 house, and it's possible that I didn't see any because I didn't dare look

5 always.

6 Q. Yes, I understand, and thank you for that clarification.

7 Now, the way into the village on the -- on the west bank takes a

8 person -- a person coming from Jablanica into that village has to cross

9 over the two bridges, including the iron bridge; is that correct?

10 A. No. If he's going along the main road, then he would cross over

11 to the other side. But if he's taking the train, then that is on the west

12 bank. But the train -- trains weren't operating at that time anyway.

13 Q. Okay. Well, thank you. I'll -- I'm actually talking about

14 people in cars, if that's okay.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. A person coming down from Jablanica and wanting to go to

17 the right bank, or the other bank from yours, would turn off the road

18 before getting to your house; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yes. So that troops going over to the right bank wouldn't

21 necessarily have to drive past your house at all; is that correct?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. Okay. But nevertheless, if you happened to be looking, you might

24 be able to see some of their movements over on the right bank.

25 A. Yes. It's close by.

Page 48

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. Only the road separates us from the river.

3 Q. Yes. Thank you.

4 Now, I'm going to come to the events that happened in a moment.

5 I just want to ask you some questions about the refugees and your dealings

6 with them before I come to those sad events. Okay?

7 Now, the first question is: Is it the fact that at the end of

8 August a large number of refugees of a Muslim background began to appear

9 from HVO-held territory in the Jablanica and Grabovica area?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did many of those refugees pass up the road from Dreznica and

12 Mostar on their way to Jablanica?

13 A. Came in cars.

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. They would come in cars.

16 Q. Okay. Were they sometimes brought up by United Nations

17 officials?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And did you come to know that these were refugees from the

20 area of Capljina and also from Stolac?

21 A. Yes. But I can't say about them all, because I -- I knew

22 practically all of those who came from Capljina. We were colleagues,

23 friends, and I offered them hospitality as much as I could and they lived

24 in the house with me.

25 Q. I was going to come to the kindness that you showed to these

Page 49

1 people, and it might be appropriate to do so in just a moment. But I want

2 to ask you a couple of other questions first. Did you become aware on the

3 night of the 8th, that is, the night when the shooting was going on, that

4 a number of refugees from the Dretelj camp passed through or came to the

5 village of Grabovica and in particular your side of it?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. Very well. Did you come to hear that --

8 A. Perhaps they did, but there were a few who came there. I don't

9 know about -- anything more about that.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. Men.

12 Q. Now, the refugees from the Dretelj camp; let me ask you some

13 questions about that. First of all, your house was already full up,

14 wasn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In fact, you were looking after numerous families.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Because I knew them.

20 Q. Very well. Is the -- is the position this: That you heard of

21 the arrival of some of the Dretelj camp people but you didn't see them on

22 the night of the 8th? Is that the correct position or not?

23 A. No, I didn't see them, really.

24 Q. No. But you were told that they were in the village; is that

25 correct?

Page 50

1 A. Yes. But only three or four people whom I knew personally.

2 Q. That's okay. Can you recall the names of the three or four that

3 you knew personally?

4 A. I will tell you only one. He was killed by a shell when he came

5 back home. Hajder Dedic. Because he was in my house. I knew him from

6 before, and I allowed him to change his clothes. I can't remember any of

7 the others. It was a long time ago.

8 Q. I understand. Could I just ask you this: If you were concerned

9 to reveal the identity of any such people, the Court can accommodate that

10 by entering into a private session. So would you please indicate, are

11 there people that -- other people whose names that you remember but who

12 you would prefer not to mention for security reasons?

13 A. I can't really recall the names. I've forgotten the names.

14 There were some younger people there too, and I really cannot tell you

15 anything right now.

16 Q. That's okay. At what time of the night was it -- I'm sorry, I --

17 A. Because the women which ...

18 Q. Go on.

19 A. The women refugees were not at the camp. They came from homes

20 and houses and apartments. They didn't tell me anything. We lived

21 together, but we didn't spend so much time together because this

22 unfortunate 8th and 9th came very quickly. I cooked. What I had, I gave

23 from the house, from the garden. We were trying to get by as best we

24 could. I can't really say anything else. And perhaps it was them -- or

25 thanks to them that my life was spared.

Page 51

1 Q. Yes. Well, could I just ask you this: You mentioned one name of

2 a person killed. That was Mr. Dedic. What time of night did Mr. Dedic

3 arrive when you allowed him to change his clothes?

4 A. Yes. Sometime in the morning, around 9.00. He was up there in

5 the huts. These were the workers' huts. They were empty, so he spent the

6 night up there. Then he asked about our house, and he came to us and then

7 he changed his clothes at our house. Later he would come to visit me as

8 well, but all of that was very short and it happened within a few days.

9 Q. Yes. Very well. And is he -- did you receive a number of visits

10 from people when you were already removed up to Jablanica?

11 A. They didn't visit me then, because this all happened within a

12 day. Nobody knew where we would go on the 9th. But before that, women

13 would come to visit me, acquaintances, women that I worked with. Of

14 course they came to visit. And there were also men that I worked with in

15 my company.

16 Q. Very well. Now, let me just ask a question about that: Of the

17 refugees who were in or passing through Grabovica on the night of the 8th

18 and perhaps also the morning of the 9th, were some of those people men?

19 A. Before the 8th and 9th, there weren't many of them who came.

20 They came about eight or nine days before that, around the 1st or

21 the 28th. It depended. They arrived gradually. They were supposed to be

22 situated in the employee huts which were empty, but that was not

23 possible. So the abandoned houses which had been left by their residents

24 were used to accommodate those people and then also we took them into our

25 houses too. That was my case. For example, the people that I knew from

Page 52

1 before, I put them up at my house, the wives of the men who had taught my

2 kids at school, I put them all up at my house. We did the best we could.

3 Q. Yes. Okay. Well, as to the ones who came through on the night

4 of the 8th and the morning of the 9th, do you personally know whereabouts

5 it was that they stopped in Grabovica?

6 A. Are you thinking of the refugees or the soldiers?

7 Q. Pardon me. I am thinking of the refugees, with particular

8 reference to the night of the 8th and the 9th.

9 A. No refugees came to Grabovica on the 8th and 9th. Perhaps they

10 passed by in trucks to go to Jablanica or Prenj or some other places. But

11 in Grabovica all the houses were already filled.

12 Q. All right. And do you know whether -- obviously there was no

13 point anyone knocking on your door because your house was full. Do you

14 know whether those people who passed through that night knocked on any

15 other doors?

16 A. I don't know. As far as my house is concerned, those who were

17 there, they told the others, "There's nothing for you here. You have to

18 find something else for yourselves." So the families who arrived first

19 would tell these others to do that. But on the 8th and 9th, there were no

20 refugees. All of them had already left a few days before. I really don't

21 know much about that.

22 Q. Can you recall what time it was you went to bed that night, the

23 night of the 8th, approximately?

24 A. On the 8th, I went to sleep at 10.00. I went to bed at 10.00,

25 but I didn't actually sleep at all, because there were three or four

Page 53

1 houses -- soldiers in my house that night, as well as all these others,

2 and I was making dinner for them. I have a large living area. I was in

3 the new house at the time and I was making dinner, and it all turned out

4 badly. There were three soldiers there that I had never seen before. I

5 said, "Good evening," and he said, "Mehraba," and I didn't know that word,

6 so I didn't greet them and I didn't like that. I didn't think that was

7 very nice.

8 And I also saw some soldiers around my house. There was another

9 house with two doors close to my house. And I could tell by the refugees

10 who were staying at my house that they were not too happy with these

11 soldiers either.

12 And then when I went to bed, it was about 10.00. I actually just

13 went to lie down, but I wasn't sleeping. Then I could hear women wailing

14 and crying, and I could hear a woman saying, "Oh, my God. What's the

15 matter with you people? I never did anything wrong to anybody." And that

16 whole night I didn't sleep. I didn't turn the lights on. You're just

17 quiet sitting on the floor and awaiting your fate.

18 Q. Yes. Yes, thank you for that. All right. Well, now I want to

19 turn to the morning of the 9th. And at that time --

20 A. On the morning of the 9th.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Excuse me one moment, please.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 MR. MORRISSEY:

24 Q. Pardon me. Very well. Now, did you initially -- I think you've

25 already given evidence that you heard some bad news or bad rumours from

Page 54

1 one of the Muslim women who were staying with you. And did you then go to

2 look out your window to see whether you could see anything on the other

3 bank?

4 A. It was daylight, but I didn't see anything on the other bank.

5 Q. Okay. Did you notice whether there were any old people of

6 Croatian background or any children on the other bank when you looked?

7 A. I saw a woman and her daughter around 1.00 in front of the house

8 right across the river. Their house is close to ours. They were walking

9 around. And I could see other women of Croat ethnicity who were living on

10 the other bank. I saw them. Unfortunately, after 1.00 p.m., they died.

11 They were killed.

12 Q. Now, with respect to those people that you saw, at the time you

13 saw them did you identify who they were?

14 A. It was Dragica Dreznjak, a young woman and her mother, Mara or

15 Matija. I think it was Matija -- Mara.

16 Q. Okay. Now, in due course, did you receive a visit from any

17 family members that morning?

18 A. You mean -- which families?

19 Q. Any relatives of yours. Did any relatives of yours come to

20 visit?

21 A. No. Yes, on the 8th, who came from the west bank and asked

22 me, "Something bad is going on. They're expelling us," could I send any

23 refugees, my acquaintances to live with him in his house. He already had

24 one such family with him, "So that they could protect us," and I told this

25 to the soldiers who were on our side but they gave up on that attempt and

Page 55

1 he returned to the other side. I don't want to mention his name, but ...

2 Q. That's okay. That's okay. But my question really related to the

3 morning of the 9th. Did you receive a visit from any of your family

4 members on the morning of the 9th?

5 A. Yes, a soldier.

6 Q. Yes. Well, I'm -- I'm not asking -- you have said about the

7 soldier already, and my question is --

8 A. He's not a relative.

9 Q. I understand. I'm talking about relatives of yours, not about

10 soldiers.

11 A. No. I had a visit from the guard who was on duty up there, and

12 he asked me if my husband was alive. I said yes, he was. And then he

13 said two men were taken away, Saric and Ravlic, and they're up there.

14 They ended up there by the bridge. This was a guard of Muslim ethnicity.

15 Q. Okay. Now, in due course, a -- one of the Muslim refugee women

16 went to Jablanica to arrange for you to be evacuated if possible. And in

17 the end, somebody did come to take you away in a truck. Now, I want to

18 ask you this: Was it the army or was it the police?

19 A. Yes. It was the police.

20 Q. Did you know them personally?

21 A. No, I didn't. I didn't know them personally. I just knew two of

22 the soldiers who were Serbs but had joined the ABiH army. They were from

23 somewhere around Banja Luka. They were in prison and they joined the

24 army, so they were doing these physical jobs. And those two people who

25 came with us to Jablanica who were bedridden, these guys helped to bring

Page 56

1 them out of the house.

2 Q. Could I ask --

3 A. My husband who came before --

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry. Just forgive me

5 for cutting you off there, but I have a question about something you just

6 said. The two Serbian soldiers that you mentioned, were they in uniform?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were they from Zuka's Unit?

9 A. They were probably from Cibo's group, because Cibo was the

10 commander of Jablanica. But I wouldn't be able to tell you now, because

11 all of them were all together.

12 Q. Yes. Okay. I understand that. Was there anything about the

13 uniform that these two Serbian soldiers had to allow you to say whether

14 they were police or army members or the members of some other

15 organisation?

16 A. There were no such indications. The only thing is that one of

17 them was called Milan, and this was a bit funny to me. I could see that

18 he wasn't a Muslim. And then he said that he was from Banja Luka and he

19 told me, "Why don't you flee, ma'am?" He -- this was about ten days

20 before that. Because he was always on duty at the checkpoint but he was

21 always together with Muslim soldiers. I knew him from before because he

22 would come on patrol around our houses. There were always some soldiers

23 around.

24 Q. Yes, I understand that. Now, I've got some questions for you now

25 about the time of your departure. And what I want to suggest to you is

Page 57

1 this: That although you've given evidence as honestly as you can, you'd

2 concede it's possible that you left your house in the truck at

3 approximately 3.30 p.m. that afternoon. Do you agree that that's

4 possible?

5 A. It's possible. I can't give you the exact hour. It was fall.

6 The days were shorter. It was overcast, dark. There was no rain, but

7 there was a kind of sadness hanging over the village. You understand?

8 That I wasn't really aware of the time. But that's when we set off. The

9 FAP was open on all the sides. It often passed along the road and would

10 be bringing them there. There weren't too many vehicles on the road.

11 There was a fuel shortage. We had difficulties climbing aboard and

12 especially these two people who were bedridden. They brought -- they were

13 brought up there by those soldiers and those two police, those Serbs, on

14 blankets and some of us also walked.

15 Q. Okay. There's two issues arising out of what you've just said

16 that I want to cover with you. The first one is relating to that FAP

17 truck. You had seen that truck used before in the transport of soldiers

18 to and from their duties; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. And the soldiers that had -- had been in the habit of using that

21 truck in the past were soldiers from Zuka's Unit; is that correct

22 A. Probably from Zuka's unit, because that truck that this guy was

23 driving was for the use of the ABiH army, because they would drive

24 different shifts to the checkpoint. They would bring in five, take away

25 six people. My house is very close to the main asphalt road, very close,

Page 58

1 so that's why I was in a position to see everything. It was a kind of FAP

2 truck. It had some sort of tiger or some kind of cat on it. It was very

3 difficult to see what it was. But it was a truck that was familiar

4 because I would see it every day.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...?

6 A. Not every day but practically every day.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... That is very helpful.

8 Now, I just want to put something from another statement to you.

9 And you spoke to an investigator from the -- from the Tribunal here, a

10 man by the name of Gamini Wijeyesinghe. And this is back in 1996. And we

11 have that statement here.

12 I just want to put something to you from that statement. But

13 what you say is you told the truth to the investigators, of course?

14 A. Of course.

15 Q. Of course. Now I'm going to read to you a statement here, and

16 this is at page 3 of that statement, for the assistance of the Court,

17 second paragraph: "The Muslim woman who was in my house secretly informed

18 about my presence in the house to the Muslim police in Jablanica. They

19 came in a truck and took me to the Jablanica camp. I with my husband were

20 taken to the camp. This was on the 9th of September at about 3.30 p.m."

21 Now, let me just ask you: That's true, isn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And at the time when you made that statement to the -- to the

24 investigators -- well, I withdraw that. Okay.

25 I want to just put another part or put another series of

Page 59

1 questions to you, and this concerns now the sad moments when you saw --

2 you saw a body and you met with people, and I'm going to ask you questions

3 about that.

4 Now, when you left, you had approached an elderly lady of your

5 acquaintance, named Mara Mandic, correct, and spoken to her?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that happened just before you left in the truck; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes. Can I tell you about it?

10 Q. Well, I may have some specific questions about it in just a

11 moment. I'm really asking questions about timing now, and we'll come to

12 the substance a bit later.

13 Okay. So --

14 A. When we set out to Jablanica and came to the FAP truck, the

15 soldier who was carrying those bedridden people to the truck said to

16 me, "There's Mara up there. Go and tell her to come with us." I ran

17 through the garden. She didn't want to listen to them. I said to

18 her, "Mara, we're all leaving. Come with us. Don't stay behind." She

19 said she didn't want to go. She was an elderly woman. She was over 80.

20 She was widowed and had never had any children. She said, "I have never

21 hurt anyone," and she refused to go. She refused to listen to us. That

22 evening she was killed.

23 Q. Now, I have some questions about the information that you have

24 about Mara Mandic. First of all, where were you when you were told of her

25 death?

Page 60

1 A. In the camp.

2 Q. And how long had you been in the camp?

3 A. Three days when I heard about her death.

4 Q. Now, you were told about her death by two other people or by one

5 other person?

6 A. First I was told by one person, and then later I heard more. A

7 refugee called, Ema Jasam [phoen] remained in the house in which civilians

8 had come along with us, and they saw when that crime happened to Mara.

9 That woman ran over to my house. She fell ill, this Ema, and she died.

10 She didn't die right away but about a year later. She visited me -- or

11 rather, a woman visited me in the camp and told me about this event, that

12 Mara had been killed immediately, and she brought some clothes to me from

13 my house because I didn't have any clothes with me, and she said, "It's

14 the end of Mara."

15 Q. Okay. Now, let me just ask you some specific questions about

16 that. When you -- when you were first told of what had happened to Mara,

17 were you told in this way: Were you told -- perhaps I'll ask you the

18 question in a better form. Were you told by Edinka Unjic herself or did

19 the people who visited you pass on what Edinka had said?

20 A. Edinka Unjic told me herself, and she brought me some clothes to

21 put on.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. And she said that she was sorry about everything.

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. She heard about everything from the soldiers and from that woman

Page 61

1 who had fled from Mara's courtyard to my house and continued living with

2 the refugees in my house.

3 Q. Okay. Well, that's the next question I wanted to come to, and

4 that is: What was Edinka's sources of information?

5 Now, you've indicated that she heard it from the soldiers in

6 part. And can I ask you this: Did she tell you that she had heard

7 certain soldiers effectively boasting to each other that they had

8 committed the crime? Is that what she passed on to you?

9 A. Unfortunately, yes, that's correct.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. And she was horrified by this.

12 Q. Yes. Now, you've indicated that there was another source of

13 information that Edinka mentioned, that she'd heard it from somebody else

14 as well. Is that the person -- sorry, do you know the name of this other

15 person to whom Edinka was referring?

16 A. I don't know about this other person, but I know another source,

17 if I may say, who was repairing the soldier's car. His name is Dragan

18 Zadro. He was lying underneath the car fixing it, and he heard them

19 boasting to each other saying that Mara's heart had been very tasty. And

20 he concluded that they were talking about this Mara. He was repairing

21 their car. And there is another mechanic who was a Serb. They were

22 repairing these cars in Jablanica when the soldiers brought them in,

23 because these were all old cars. And this Dragan came to the camp to see

24 me, and he told me about all this, and I said to him, "Dragan, how do you

25 know about this?" And he said, "I personally heard it. I heard them

Page 62

1 boasting about it." These weren't normal people. They must have been

2 drug addicts. They must have been sick.

3 Q. Yes. Look, I appreciate you dealing with these painful matters

4 as you are, and I've nearly finished that part of the questioning.

5 A. And she was burnt in her house.

6 Q. Okay. I've nearly finished that part of the questioning, but I

7 just want to be clear. The sources of information are, firstly, Edinka

8 Unjic and what she heard from the soldiers and, secondly, Dragan, who

9 you've mentioned, and what he heard from the soldiers back in Jablanica;

10 is that correct?

11 A. That's correct, yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Now, to your knowledge, Mara Mandic's body

13 was never found by anyone; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct, because the house was torched the same

15 night. It burnt down. There are only ashes left. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 Q. Could I ask you this question: Did you hear a rumour that was

18 circulating at a later time that she had in fact got away in the company

19 of another man named Saric?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. No. I never heard that.

23 Q. That's okay. All right. Now, just excuse me for a moment,

24 please.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I think I have about ten minutes of

Page 63

1 cross-examination to go. I don't know if the Court was planning to take a

2 break or not, but I'm moving to another topic, if you were. But I'm

3 happy -- I'm happy to press on too.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, are you ready for another ten minutes

5 before the break?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's try.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, let's go on until you finish your

8 cross-examination. Then we will take a break.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, the next question I have relates to

11 what you saw on your journey to Jablanica. At one stage the truck broke

12 down at a place which you've indicated to my learned friend Ms. Chana who

13 asked you questions before. (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 A. Brown. It was a natural colour. And here and there she had a

18 grey hair. She was an elderly spinster.

19 Q. Okay. And where was she positioned when you saw her?

20 A. It was around 500 metres away from my house. The road goes a bit

21 uphill. The truck was breaking down all the time, and we would jump down

22 and push it. And she was right next to the road, next to the asphalt, in

23 a channel. She was lying on her back. The head was covered in blood on

24 one side. She wore a brown sheepskin coat. She had passed by my house an

25 hour before. She wanted to stay with me, but they wouldn't let her. They

Page 64

1 told her to move on. And that's how she got killed. I don't know if she

2 was shot in any other place too, because I didn't really inspect the body.

3 Q. No, that's okay. And I'm not going to press you with any

4 questions about the state of -- of Ilka -- of that person.

5 But I do have a question about the timing of when you last saw

6 her. You've indicated approximately an hour, but I take it you would

7 agree it's possible that it was somewhat longer than that, given that you

8 weren't trying to keep a precise measure of time.

9 A. Probably, yes.

10 Q. Okay. I understand you're not trying to deceive the Court. You

11 were just giving a -- an estimation; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. It could have been a bit longer, because they came to pick

13 us up and -- I cannot really limit the time precisely. I didn't have a

14 clock. Had the sun been shining, I might have known by the sunlight.

15 Well, it's a long time ago so, please, I really can't be very precise

16 about the time, but I'm sure about what I'm saying.

17 Q. Well, could I just indicate that we're not going to press you to

18 be precise about times 12 years later.

19 Now, on the way into Jablanica, was the old -- or the truck that

20 you were in, the FAP truck, capable of reaching very high speeds or did it

21 go along at about 30 to 40 kilometres an hour?

22 A. Very slowly. It went along very slowly and not very well. But

23 it did take us to the camp, so that's all right.

24 Q. Would you just excuse me for one moment, please.

25 [Defence counsel confer]

Page 65

1 MR. MORRISSEY:

2 Q. You know a person called Katica? I'm not asking you about your

3 relationship with her, just you know her and that she exists?

4 A. Yes, I do. She does exist.

5 Q. Yes. Okay. And we don't want to identify her relationship to

6 you because of the measures taken here, but was she the previous witness?

7 A. All right.

8 Q. Okay. Now --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Did you while you were in that truck pass her by on the

11 road to Jablanica?

12 A. No. She wanted to stay in my house, but they didn't let her.

13 They told her to move on. And she walked along and somebody was --

14 somebody gave her a lift. So she arrived before I did. We arrived at

15 night. I don't know what time it was. But we were the last people from

16 Grabovica to arrive in the camp.

17 Q. Were there other people from Grabovica already there who had been

18 taken by other vehicles?

19 A. Yes. Yes, there were. There were a few men who were in the

20 cellars in the camp, and they treated them as if they had been soldiers

21 but they weren't. They were civilians. They were caught up in the hills

22 where they had fled. They were caught up there. And we found them in the

23 camp. But they wouldn't let us see them.

24 Q. Okay. Could I just limit my question to this: Were there other

25 people from Grabovica that you met when you got to Jablanica who had gone

Page 66

1 there that same day? In other words, other people evacuated that same

2 day?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you name those people?

5 A. May I?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Ruza Pranjic, Stojan Pranjic. Oh, dear, I've forgotten -- Mira

8 Pranjic, her husband was in the camp down there. Matija Miletic. Matija

9 died too. I -- I'll try to recall more names. There were more.

10 Q. [Microphone not activated].

11 JUDGE LIU: Your microphone, please.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry. Yes.

13 Q. If you're not able to recall the names, can you recall the

14 approximate number of Grabovica residents that you encountered once you

15 reached Grabovica.

16 A. There were about 16 of us. But later on others arrived, those

17 who had left on foot. They didn't go to the camp. They didn't know where

18 to go, so they went to stay with acquaintances, and then two or three days

19 later they were brought to the camp, so that ultimately there were about

20 21 of us in the camp from Grabovica and about 12 days later people arrived

21 from another village, from Sjencine. There were about 16 of them. And

22 then there were other villages, so that all together there were 340 of us

23 in the camp.

24 Q. Very well. Witness, can I just indicate to you that's the end of

25 my questions, and thank you for answering them as you have.

Page 67

1 MR. MORRISSEY: That's the cross-examination, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 We'll take a break now, and after that we'll continue with the

4 redirect.

5 And we'll resume at ten minutes to 1.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, any redirect, Ms. Chana?

9 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honours, just briefly redirect.

10 Re-examined by Ms. Chana:

11 Q. Hello, Witness. Can you hear me?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Yes. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you a few more questions,

14 and I would very much appreciate it if you would be fairly brief, and that

15 would give you an opportunity to also be released. Is that fine?

16 A. Yes. I will also be happy to go sooner than later.

17 Q. That's right. Now, on the 5th of September, I want you to

18 remember that particular day, please. You said there were a lot of

19 soldiers in the village on that date; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. And could you see all of this from your vantage view as to where

22 your house was near the river?

23 A. This was on the 5th; is that right? Could you please repeat

24 that, please.

25 Q. Yes. I'm -- I'm taking you back to the 5th of September, where

Page 68

1 there were soldiers -- and you said there were a lot of soldiers in the

2 village, and you could see that yourself from where you were, where your

3 house was.

4 A. Yes. But there weren't many of them on the 5th, not as many as

5 there were on the 8th, the 9th, and the 7th. There weren't so many of

6 them along the road and around the houses, up and down the road, as there

7 were on the 7th and 8th and the 9th on the west bank.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

9 A. There were more of them on the west bank than on our side.

10 Q. Nevertheless, there were quite a few soldiers. Would you say?

11 How would you describe that in numbers?

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: The second part of the question was not

14 objectionable, and I don't object to the second part being asked, but the

15 first part was a pretty clearly leading, and I object to that first part.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe you could put your question another way.

17 MS. CHANA: Yes.

18 Q. Witness, can you give me a sense of numbers, please.

19 A. I think that there were perhaps about 100 to about 150 of them.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness. And --

21 A. I'm not sure, again, about the numbers. Perhaps there were

22 fewer.

23 Q. But you could see them from where you were, milling around.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what was the general demeanour of these soldiers?

Page 69

1 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, could I just raise an objection here?

2 It ought to be made clear which day we're talking about here. It seems to

3 me that the current questioning is not focussed on -- on which day. If

4 it's the 5th, it should be made clear that they're talking about the 5th,

5 if she's talking about demeanour -- my friend is talking about demeanour,

6 she should make it clear whether it's the 8th or the 5th that's being

7 discussed.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

9 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness, I am talking about the 5th of September now until

11 further notice. Can you please tell us the demeanour of these 100 or so

12 soldiers on the 5th.

13 A. Nothing in particular that wasn't nice. They were going up and

14 down, but they were not behaving badly. They were not provoking us or

15 doing anything to us. They did ask for food and things like that, but

16 that was normal, on the 5th.

17 Q. And where were all these 100 or so soldiers living?

18 A. They were staying in the huts where the so-called offices were,

19 on the east bank. Then there was a checkpoint with a little hut and there

20 were about 20 of them just below our houses. Then they came to the west

21 bank, and they were in the houses. There was also the railway station.

22 They were staying there too. You wouldn't really determine the number,

23 how many of them there were. There would be 20 in a truck. It would go

24 down there. Then it would come back empty. So it was going back and

25 forth. But I couldn't really tell how many of them there were; although,

Page 70

1 there were many of them. There were many of them on the eastern bank.

2 They had two checkpoints around our houses. So if you figure that there

3 would be 10 people there each, that would be 20 people. Then there would

4 be those patrolling up and down the road. So I can't really give you a

5 definite number.

6 Q. Witness, I am talking now not about numbers but accommodation of

7 these soldiers, and I'm talking around the 5th. Where were they?

8 A. Oh, accommodation. I told you in the houses on the west bank and

9 then in the hunts where the workers were. In one hut they were staying

10 and they were also staying in these other huts that belonged to the power

11 plant. That's where they were staying as well. But I don't know who was

12 staying where and how many of them there were. There are large huts used

13 by the construction workers when the dam was being built, so after that

14 they were used by soldiers and all kinds of people. But you can see that

15 on the map.

16 Q. Was there limited space for Grabovica as a village to house these

17 additional people, or was there sufficient space?

18 A. There wasn't more space because in the civilian houses, there

19 were already many refugees from the 5th, the ones who came, like I said

20 before, from Capljina and other places, Stolac. They were already in

21 those houses.

22 Q. So how would you then describe the accommodation? In the sense

23 of capacity.

24 A. These were not permanent lodgings. Those who came on the 7th and

25 the 8th, they came during the night or for a night. I really don't know.

Page 71

1 They were here and then they -- they weren't here. I really couldn't tell

2 where they were staying. They were just coming and going. Again, the

3 road is there. Trucks are going up and down. A truck would bring them, a

4 full truck. It would leave empty. Then they would go to all the

5 different houses, the huts. I wasn't able to see where they were. I

6 could see a lot of them on the west bank around the houses and then on

7 the 8th I could see the crowd. There was lots of noise and shouting. How

8 could I tell? They were going up and down. I really couldn't give you an

9 exact number and where they were staying during those several days.

10 Q. So then would it be true to say that the soldiers were not

11 isolated in barracks in Grabovica?

12 A. There are no barracks in Grabovica. Once we left, then the

13 soldiers were staying in these huts, and then later that was called a

14 barracks, and this was in 1994 or 1995 and all the way until perhaps 1998

15 or 2000. But I really can't tell you exactly because then I didn't go

16 back to Grabovica anymore.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Chana.

18 MS. CHANA: Yes.

19 JUDGE LIU: I believe this set of questions has gone out of a

20 little bit of scope of the cross-examination. The redirect is not to give

21 you a chance to conduct the direct examination again, but you should be

22 strictly within the scope of the questions that the Defence raised during

23 his cross-examination.

24 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. I will move right along.

25 Q. Witness, I want to now talk to you about refugees. Counsel for

Page 72

1 the Defence when he was questioning you asked you about the refugees

2 staying in Grabovica. Now, tell me, was there any suggestion whatsoever

3 that it was any of the refugees who committed these crimes?

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I object to that question in its current

5 form. If the witness was told something or saw something, I don't object

6 to hearsay but I object to speculation. So specifics should be elicited

7 from the witness as to that, in my submission, or nothing.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that this is just a general question,

9 you know, to -- to lead this witness to this area, you know.

10 Maybe it could be put in another form, Ms. Chana.

11 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, it's just that there already has been

12 evidence led that -- that she has identified by rumours, so it's basically

13 only the aspect of the rumours that there is any suggestion, so I don't

14 really think that that is outside. But of course I will oblige Your

15 Honours and put the question in another way.

16 Q. Witness, you said when you were hearing about the various

17 killings people were telling you as to who had killed; is that correct?

18 A. I don't understand this. Who killed whom? I don't know.

19 Q. You know the list I showed you earlier of all those people who

20 had been killed and you heard about them from various people?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who did these people say were the ones who had actually done the

23 killing?

24 A. There was talk that it was Sefer's army and these Handzar

25 soldiers. Then we had these Tigers. Then we had the Handzar Division.

Page 73

1 That's mostly Sefer's. So I don't know anything more about that. This is

2 a little different, this question, so I don't know how to respond.

3 Q. What was the -- according to you, the behaviour of the refugees?

4 What were they like?

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Once again, Your Honour, that doesn't arise.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: I didn't ask about the conduct of the refugees,

8 and this seems to be an attempt to reopen something that would have been

9 led in chief but wasn't.

10 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Chana, I believe that the witness answered this

11 question in her previous answer in the other way.

12 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. Then I will move along.

13 Q. Now, you said on 9th September morning there was a truck which

14 arrived. Now, could you clarify for us, because you were asked questions

15 again by counsel for the Defence, whether it was a police truck or an army

16 truck? Can you clarify what kind of a truck? That is, if you know.

17 A. What was that truck used for?

18 Q. The one which took you to the Jablanica. The one which arrived

19 on the 9th.

20 A. The truck, it came towards the evening. It was an FAP truck. It

21 was open, just a flat bed. It was just an old wreck. But it served us

22 well. I would see it frequently as it was going through our village

23 bringing people who were changing shifts at the checkpoints and so on.

24 Q. What kind of people would this truck bring?

25 A. The soldiers. For example, to a shift from Jablanica. Then they

Page 74

1 would spend ten days there, two days and two nights. This -- and then

2 they would bring others. This went on throughout the whole summer.

3 That's when I would see it.

4 Q. Now, can you -- I want to ask you about -- one question on Mara

5 Mandic. Have you ever seen her again?

6 A. Never, no.

7 Q. Was she a good friend?

8 A. Yes, she was. An elderly lady, 82 or 83 years old.

9 Q. The last question I want to ask you, Witness: If -- you know the

10 list I showed you with all the -- the people that you talked about?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Have you ever seen any one of them again?

13 A. No, never.

14 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

15 MS. CHANA: Those are my -- that's my re-examination, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

18 Any questions from Judges? Judge El Mahdi.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 [Interpretation] Madam -- [No interpretation] -- You have

22 responded to one question by the Defence --

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] That on the 5th of September you

24 established that a military group came called the Handzar Division. Could

25 you please tell us, how was it possible for you to identify that division?

Page 78

1 application.

2 The second issue is about Rule 68 disclosure of 14 documents.

3 The Prosecution filed an application for leave to disclose 14 documents

4 pursuant to Rule 68 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence on February

5 the 1st, 2005. As the documents were disclosed to the Defence in B/C/S,

6 the Trial Chamber asked the Prosecution during the hearing of February 1st

7 to provide the documents to the Defence in English translation. The Trial

8 Chamber would like to know if the Defence has received them and what the

9 Defence position is as to the disclosure of those documents.

10 Yes, Mr. Mettraux.

11 MR. METTRAUX: Good afternoon, Your Honour. If I may respond to

12 this query.

13 We have received just before the testimony of this witness -- or

14 rather, during the break the five statements Your Honour has been

15 referring to in English.

16 As for the 14 Rule 68 documents, we unfortunately have not yet

17 received translation nor interpretations of those documents.

18 JUDGE LIU: I see.

19 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Chana.

21 MS. CHANA: We have waiting for the translations, and the moment

22 we have them -- we have requested them. And the moment we have them, we

23 will disclose them to the Defence.

24 JUDGE LIU: When do you think you could have them?

25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 79

1 MS. CHANA: I'm informed by our case manager that she will

2 inquire again today and we will try and get them as soon as possible.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

4 Yes, Mr. Mettraux.

5 MR. METTRAUX: If I may, Your Honour.

6 The Prosecution has been granted leave to add a number of

7 witnesses, seven in effect, to its witness list. It is possible if not

8 probable that their being added to the list may trigger further Rule 68

9 material which would relate to those specific individuals, and we would be

10 grateful to the Prosecution if they could accelerate the search for any

11 Rule 68 material relating to those witnesses and to disclose it

12 immediately to the Defence.

13 JUDGE LIU: Of course. I believe that under Rule 68 it is the

14 consistent responsibility for the Prosecution to disclose any material

15 which they believe that fall into that scope.

16 And at this stage, I would like to remind the Defence to file its

17 application for the admission of the documents used during the testimony

18 of Mr. Gusic and to indicate if it objects to any Prosecution's exhibits

19 to be tendered through this witness.

20 MR. METTRAUX: As ordered by Your Honour two days ago, we will do

21 so before 4.00 today. It will be done, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

23 The next issue is the Prosecution's motion to vary its exhibit

24 list. The Trial Chamber has received the Prosecution report to Trial

25 Chamber concerning the request for addition of exhibits and other issues

Page 80

1 filed on January 31st, 2005 and the response of the Defence to the

2 Prosecution's report, filed on February 8th, 2005.

3 The Trial Chamber notes that in its report the Prosecution has

4 still not shown good cause as to its late application to vary its exhibit

5 list which was not filed before January 14th, 2005 even though it was

6 already announced on November 19th, 2004. Could the Prosecution provide

7 its reasons now?

8 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, may I seek a clarification from the

9 Court?

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.

11 MS. CHANA: What was announced on November 19th, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that you announced some reasons on

13 that day, but I believe that you have to tell us why there is a delay at

14 this stage of the proceedings.

15 MS. CHANA: Your Honour -- Your Honour, we provided the exhibit

16 list, and I think we did put forth some reasons in our report to the

17 Chamber, and a lot of the exhibits were because of the late addition of

18 witnesses and the fact that there was a late collection which the Tribunal

19 received, and it was assessing and looking at all those documents and then

20 coming up with it. And there was obviously -- there was one or two, I

21 think, if I remember correctly, which was -- which we already had in-house

22 and we chose later on.

23 I believe all these explanations, Your Honour, were in our report

24 that we gave to the Chamber about the exhibits.

25 JUDGE LIU: Any response, Mr. Mettraux?

Page 81

1 MR. METTRAUX: No, not in particular, Your Honour. I believe

2 that the date which reference was made was a Rule 65 ter Conference where

3 the Prosecution indicated the possibility of a motion seeking leave to add

4 a number of exhibits.

5 JUDGE LIU: I see. Thank you very much for that clarification.

6 And at this stage, I would like to know if the Defence has been

7 provided with English translations of those proposed exhibits.

8 MR. METTRAUX: The Defence has been provided with what we would

9 say is a majority of English translations of those documents. As far as

10 the issue of their -- of the amendment of the lists, the Defence stands by

11 its written submissions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 And -- yes, Ms. Chana.

14 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. I believe that there are five

15 pending, including some of the books, some extracts from the books --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Now, concerning the books, I don't think, you

17 know, we should have the whole book translated into another language at

18 this stage. I believe during the proceedings only parts or chapters of

19 that book could be used as a reference.

20 Yes.

21 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, that's exactly the intention of the

22 Prosecutor, to only translate the bits that they intend to use during any

23 witness testimony and not the entire book. That would be just too much a

24 waste of resources, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: I see. But if we call that person as a witness, then

Page 82

1 do we have to admit his book also as the evidence?

2 MS. CHANA: I don't think so, Your Honour. The position would be

3 to admit the expert -- excerpt, which we do direct his attention to, and

4 that becomes the exhibit, the page number. Of -- from the book.

5 JUDGE LIU: Any comments from Defence on that issue?

6 MR. MORRISSEY: On that issue, Your Honour, the -- the principle

7 is that the witness can give his evidence. If for some reason he needs to

8 be taken to the book or that assists either party to do that, there are

9 various ways in which it can happen and that issue can be dealt with at

10 the time. Prima facie what Your Honour says is, in my submission,

11 entirely right that it's what the witness says in the witness box is

12 evidence. And whilst we're not quite sure what the basis that the

13 Prosecutor would want to tender books, novels, or reconstructions is - and

14 they may find a legitimate basis in the future - at this stage, the

15 Defence position would be in general that the evidence ought to be oral

16 evidence and the book can only be used in the limited number of ways,

17 either to impugn or to resist a suggestion of recent invention. It can be

18 relevant in a number of ways. Of course witnesses may refresh their

19 memory from a variety of sources from time to time, so long as they were

20 the author themselves and not -- it's not put in their hands to adapt

21 their evidence.

22 So, Your Honour, our position is that such books ought not to be

23 referred to as a primary source. Otherwise, we entirely agree that the

24 translation of books ought not to be something that hold up the trial or

25 to form a centrepiece of this trial.

Page 83

1 There is, of course, a book, part of which the Prosecution wants

2 to rely on, relating to the accused. We take it that's been long ago

3 translated, and the Prosecution wants to put some parts of that before

4 the -- the Tribunal. But I think we're talking now about other books.

5 So those are the comments I have to make.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. But generally speaking, you have no objections

7 for those exhibits list?

8 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, no, I don't follow Your Honour's

9 question there. I apologise. You mean the exhibit list that the

10 Prosecutor --

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: -- is apparently offering?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, we don't know. The untranslated ones, we

15 don't know. We need to await them. They may be prejudiced; they may not.

16 We don't want to assert that there is until we know that there is. We'd

17 just like to reserve our position to say that we're prejudiced, if it

18 turns out we are. And when we get those documents, we will say so.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage we are not discuss about the

20 admission of those documents into the evidence. We are talking about, you

21 know, there's a list which the Prosecution would like to use during their

22 case. So you have no objections against any using of those, you know,

23 exhibits?

24 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry. Pardon me, Your Honour. I

25 misunderstood. You're talking about the list generally? The Prosecution

Page 84

1 exhibit list generally speaking?

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, generally.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: No. No, we have many -- we have many objections

4 to them, and we're not in a position to say in a blanket form that we

5 don't object at all. There are many documents to which we're going to

6 object. And I take it that the list itself contains documents which the

7 Prosecution may or may not rely upon, depending upon the way the evidence

8 falls. But I can indicate now no, we do have many objections to many of

9 those exhibits.

10 JUDGE LIU: No. I'm not talking about the admission. You

11 understand that? We are talking about the Prosecution will probably use

12 those, you know, materials in their case.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: I understand. I'm sorry. Well, in that

14 preliminary way, what we rely on is that, as we've indicated before, we

15 say that the Prosecution has not shown the relevant good cause to have

16 that list used. That's as far as I can respond to it.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe at this stage the Trial Chamber will

18 consider the views from the both parties and make a decision as soon as

19 possible in due course. Yes.

20 And the last matter is that the Trial Chamber has been furnished

21 with a roster of the witnesses the Prosecution intends to call during the

22 week of the 14th February. The Trial Chamber has noted that one witness

23 who appears on the roster is a witness who was added to the Prosecution's

24 witness list after the Trial Chamber granted its motion to vary its

25 witness list.

Page 85

1 At this stage, I just want to know whether there's any problem or

2 difficulties on the part of the Defence --

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, we think --

4 JUDGE LIU: -- with the cross-examination of this witness.

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, we think we can accommodate the

6 Prosecution's proposal. This -- in respect of this witness, we've been

7 provided with an amount of material. We think we're ready to deal with

8 him. We are grateful to the indication that was given that we could seek

9 leave to have him put back at a later stage. But we think it would be

10 appropriate to have all of these witnesses called at the same time because

11 their evidence has an interplay. For that reason, we don't object.

12 I believe there's a motion before the Court. I'm not sure.

13 Sorry.

14 [Defence counsel confer]

15 MR. MORRISSEY: Pardon me, Your Honour, concerning the temporary

16 transfer of that.

17 JUDGE LIU: This is in the confidential filings. We are not

18 going to discuss about it.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.

20 JUDGE LIU: If you have any objections or comments, we could come

21 into the private session.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: I'll finish what I have to say about this.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: And then I'll make that. Thank you. Thank you,

25 Your Honour.