1 Monday, 14 February 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.18 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
7 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
9 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Before we hear the witness,
10 are there any matters that the parties would like to bring to our
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour, there's just a couple of brief
13 matters before it commences.
14 The first of those is I'm advised by my learned friend that the
15 Prosecutor has chosen to seek to proceed pursuant to 89(F) with this
16 witness. Now, apart from a mild desire that we be -- well, a desire that
17 we be told about these matters further in advance, I think in this case
18 I'm told by the Prosecutor that effectively we have a misunderstanding
19 about it. In fact, we have no objection to that course being taken in
20 relation to this witness. It's an appropriate witness for that to happen.
21 So I indicate that in advance.
22 There are -- there are two other brief matters. The first
23 concerns the provision of briefing notes. We're grateful for the briefing
24 notes that we do get, but it's important that we get those promptly. It's
25 been a little uneven so far. We do appreciate the efforts that are being
1 made. We also appreciate that there are real life constraints on the
2 Prosecutor about when they speak to a witness and so on. But we need to
3 place on record that in order to properly prepare and to keep the
4 cross-examination within limits, the more time we have, the more efficient
5 we will be. So that I wish to make that point.
6 Finally, Mr. Re was here a moment ago but now he's gone, Your
7 Honour, there have been a number of witnesses that have sought protective
8 measures up to this point. Now, it's been indicated to us that there is a
9 particular witness who may or may not seek such measures in the future.
10 Obviously nothing has been put to us to say that they're going to at this
11 stage. But we want to indicate that in relation to that particular
12 witness we will not -- Mr. Re is here now. Your Honour, might I just
13 re-commence what I was going to say because he knows about this matter,
14 it's best if he's here to respond.
15 As Mr. Re is here I now indicate there was a witness in respect of
16 whom it was indicated to the Defence sometime ago - I think over a week
17 ago - that that witness may wish for protective measures. That
18 indication - and the Prosecution can confirm that this is accurate - was
19 given in this way, that it just wasn't clear whether the witness wanted
20 them or not, and the Prosecution was going to indicate to us if the
21 witness did want them.
22 Now, I make it clear in respect of that witness - I'm not saying
23 his name now - the Defence will not be consenting to that in the least,
24 and we will contest it. And we want an opportunity to prepare to contest
25 that. And we also indicate that we would not be satisfied in that regard
1 with assurances from the bar table. That would have to be proved. That
2 witness is a contentious and potentially important witness. So I just
3 want to put it on record that should that witness indicate to the
4 Prosecution that he wants protective measures, the Prosecution ought to
5 tell us that immediately and give us due course. We cannot be put in the
6 position of that being said on the morning, because that matter will be
7 litigated and litigated hard. I mention that now so my learned friend
8 knows that that matter stands and so that the Court -- so the Tribunal
9 knows what's coming should such an application be made.
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation concerning of
11 the Prosecution's proposal for the proceeding in accordance with the
12 Rule 89(F). And secondly, I believe that this witness was not sent back
13 last week. So there's a possibility for the Prosecution to have the
14 proofing notes as early as possible so as to inform the other parties
15 about that.
16 Mr. Weiner, would you like to clarify this matter?
17 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour. This witness arrived yesterday
18 around 12.30 in the Netherlands, appeared in the office at approximately
19 2.30. We spoke to her until 5.30. And by approximately 6.00 we had the
20 proofing notes faxed. They have a problem with their fax, so then we, I
21 think, attempted to e-mail them, and in addition to that we also left hard
22 copies in their box. We notified them and they said they would pick them
23 up last night. Their fax has been down on and off for a week now, they've
24 had trouble with their e-mailing. We took every possible option to get
25 them. And I was also here throughout the night to provide them if there
1 was a problem.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I believe that you have shown
3 good course for the proofing notes. But as a principle in the future, as
4 soon as the witness arrives in The Hague and you will prepare those
5 proofing notes and furnish it to the Defence as early as possible. That's
6 a principle.
7 Another matter is protective measures. We also want to know
8 beforehand what kind of protective measures you are going to request so
9 that the Bench as well as the Defence could be very prepared. Well, it's
10 a -- just a request from the Bench.
11 Well, having said that, could we have the witness, please.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, while the witness is being
13 collected, Your Honour, might I request of the Prosecution that we be told
14 the witnesses at least for next week.
15 JUDGE LIU: I believe that we have one the week before, but maybe
16 there's some changes there.
17 MR. WEINER: That's being prepared today, Your Honour..
18 JUDGE LIU: You mean you could furnish it to the Defence today?
19 MR. WEINER: Yes, today.
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness. Would you please make the
23 solemn declaration in accordance with the paper Ms. Usher is showing to
25 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].
1 JUDGE LIU: Do I hear the translation?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
5 Yes, Mr. Weiner.
6 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
7 WITNESS: MARIJA DEFINIS-GOJANOVIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examined by Mr. Weiner:
10 Q. Good morning, madam.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Could you state your name, please.
13 A. My name is Marija Definis-Gojanovic.
14 Q. And could you tell us how you're employed.
15 A. I'm employed as a professional forensic pathologist in the
16 clinical hospital in Croatia.
17 Q. Specifically which hospital or what's the location of that
19 A. It's the clinical hospital in Split in Croatia.
20 Q. And could you just tell us your educational history, please, just
21 very briefly.
22 A. I studied medicine and graduated in 1984. After working as a
23 general practitioner for several years, I began to specialise in forensic
24 medicine which I graduated in in 1992, and since then I have been working
25 as a forensic specialist in the hospital I mentioned.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to show you a document on the screen in
2 front of you. It's Prosecution's 65 ter Exhibit list number 136, ERN
3 number 01057280, and MFI number 166. We're going to Sanction right now
4 and just show you page 1 of this. It begins with report number 188/94 and
5 runs through reports 199/94. Are you familiar with these documents,
6 ma'am -- or doctor?
7 A. Yes, I am.
8 Q. And what are they, these reports, please, in general?
9 A. The first page you showed, this is the front page. It is the
10 front page of the jacket in which an autopsy report is enclosed.
11 Q. And are these a group of autopsy reports?
12 A. The next page you showed, yes, this is an autopsy report inserted
13 in that jacket. And the following pages you showed, this one and another
14 one, these are the official forms provided for by the legislation in order
15 to report a death.
16 Q. Were you present when these autopsies were performed, this number
17 188 through number 199 in 1994?
18 A. Yes, I was. I personally carried out some of these autopsies.
19 Q. And were you involved in drafting these autopsy reports, some of
21 A. I drafted the autopsy reports for those autopsies which I myself
23 Q. And was there another pathologist also conducting autopsies with
25 A. My colleague, Dr. Andjelinovic, also conducted autopsies, and he
1 compiled his autopsy reports.
2 Q. Were you present when all of these autopsies were conducted?
3 A. Yes, I was. Because all these autopsies were carried out at the
4 same time in an autopsy room, and they were all inspected and dealt with
5 in a single day. We worked together each at our own table.
6 Q. And did you review all of these remains or corpses? Did you at
7 least observe them?
8 A. I looked at the bodies I myself dealt with, but my colleague and I
9 cooperated in the following way. We would go over to each other's tables,
10 look at what was happening, comment on it. That's how we cooperated.
11 Q. And have you reviewed these autopsy reports, yours as well as the
12 ones performed or written by Dr. Andjelinovic?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And having reviewed them, are these reports accurate?
15 A. I don't understand your question. What do you mean by asking are
16 they accurate?
17 Q. Well, is the information contained in them true to the best of
18 your knowledge, information, and belief?
19 A. Yes, it is true. It was done, everything was done, according to
20 the best of our knowledge and skill.
21 Q. And were these autopsy reports prepared for legal proceedings?
22 A. When we did these autopsies, the purpose was exclusively to
23 identify the bodies. That is how we dealt with the bodies and compiled
24 the reports. At the time, we did not know that there would be any trials
25 conducted in the future.
1 Q. Thank you. I would now like to show you another autopsy report
2 which you brought with you yesterday.
3 MR. WEINER: I've just showed her, Your Honours, a report which is
4 marked at the top 240/94.
5 Q. Have you looked at that, ma'am? When was that autopsy performed
6 in relation to the others that you've just described?
7 A. Number 240/94 was carried out on the 23rd of June, 1994, precisely
8 a month after the autopsies mentioned by the Prosecutor just minute ago.
9 Q. And the information -- first let's take a step back. Who
10 performed that autopsy, the number 240/94?
11 A. I did personally.
12 Q. And who drafted or prepared the report that you have in your
14 A. I drafted it, but it was probably typed out by my secretary
15 because all the autopsy reports were typed out by the secretary.
16 Q. And the information contained in that report, is that true to the
17 best of your knowledge, information, and brief?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. I would now like to show you a copy of the statement
20 which was -- which you gave to an Office of the Prosecutor investigator
21 in 2002. Have you had a chance to look at those notes, doctor, that
22 statement, doctor?
23 A. Yes, I have.
24 Q. And have you read it or reviewed that statement?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And is the information in that true to the best of your knowledge,
2 information, and belief?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. And finally I would like to show you the proofing
5 notes from yesterday. Have you seen that document before?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 Q. Did you provide the information contained in that document?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. And have you read it or reviewed it?
10 A. Yes, I have.
11 Q. And is it accurate?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. And is the information true to the best of your knowledge,
14 information, and belief that's contained in that document?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, the information contained in all of these
17 documents, whether it's the proofing report, the statement, the autopsy
18 reports, is this the information you planned to provide to this Chamber
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, since the information that she planned
22 to testify to today is all provided in these documents, we would like to
23 introduce these documents pursuant to Rules 89(F) and 89(C) and turn the
24 witness over for cross-examination at this time.
25 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, there may be an objection depending on the
2 answers to the last of the documents, but all the others should be
3 tendered in the way indicated and there's no objection to that. And it
4 may be that I don't oppose the last document once I've asked some
5 questions about it.
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we could deal with this matter at a later
8 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, certainly.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
10 Mr. Morrissey, do you have any cross-examination?
11 MR. MORRISSEY: I do. Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:
13 Q. Thank you, doctor. Doctor, I'm going to ask you some general
14 questions first and then I'll ask you some questions about the specific
15 cases that you had to deal with. First of all, the way in which you
16 received the human remains which you had to analyse was not something that
17 you were in control of but something that another agency was in control of
18 bringing those bodies to the hospital. Is that correct?
19 A. That's correct, yes.
20 Q. Did you have any role in supervising the way in which those bodies
21 were stored or transported or handled generally by those agencies before
22 they came to the hospital?
23 A. No.
24 MR. MORRISSEY: Would Your Honours just excuse me. I'm going to
25 facilitate the ...
1 I apologies for that. Okay. Thank you.
2 Q. And as to the information about where the human remains were
3 retrieved from, you only know what you were told by those agencies or by
4 family members or friends that you had a chance to speak to in the course
5 of the analysis. Is that right?
6 A. That's right, yes.
7 Q. Okay. And therefore when on the autopsy report you record details
8 such as place of death, you are doing that simply based upon what you were
9 told by other individuals. Is that correct?
10 A. That's correct, yes.
11 Q. And quite frankly, it lay outside of your power then to verify
12 whether that information was accurate. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. And indeed it wasn't your job to look into whether or not that
15 information was accurate. Is that correct?
16 A. Of course, yes.
17 Q. I think you've indicated this already that your purpose was not
18 primarily or indeed -- I'll withdraw that question. I'll ask another one.
19 In performing the autopsies that you did perform, your purpose was
20 solely to identify the dead for official purposes and for the comfort of
21 their families. Is that correct?
22 A. The main purpose was to establish the identity of the person and
23 then if possible the cause of death, because we were duty-bound under the
24 law after identifying the body to fill in the legal forms reporting death.
25 And these require the cause of death to be entered.
1 Q. Very well. I'm going to come to the way in which you arrived at
2 or didn't arrive at causes of death in individual cases soon. All right.
3 Now, the conditions -- perhaps, sorry, one more question about the
4 receiving of bodies and that is this: It did happen from time to time
5 that you would receive containers with parts of more than one body mixed
6 in. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. And in some cases you would have more -- I'll come to that in a
9 moment. Very well.
10 Now, the next series of questions relate to the conditions under
11 which you worked. You had a mortuary, I take it, with two tables
12 operating simultaneously?
13 A. Sometimes there were more than two, depending on the number of
14 bodies that came in.
15 Q. Yes. In normal civilian life you deal with autopsies normal --
16 ideally speaking in a thorough, slow, and painstaking way, taking up to
17 two hours or sometimes even more over an individual case. Is that true?
18 A. Sometimes several days.
19 Q. Yes. How long were you able to allocate the individual human
20 remains that you looked at in this case on the 23rd of May and then
21 subsequently when you looked at the remains identified as Ivan Mandic
22 about a month later?
23 A. I couldn't tell you how many minutes or hours it was, but in any
24 case, referring to the first group of bodies from numbers 188 to 199,
25 these 12 bags, we probably had the whole day for our disposal and within
1 that day all those bodies were looked at, identified, and all the forms
2 filled in, and then the bodies were handed over to the relatives. How
3 much time we spent on each particular body, I really couldn't say.
4 Q. That's okay. But it's the fact that you finished them all off in
5 the one day.
6 A. That's correct, yes.
7 Q. Okay. Now, I have some questions for you about the process of
8 identification. You had a policy only to release the remains to the
9 family or to another person where there was a positive identification. Is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes, under the then-prevailing conditions.
12 Q. Yes. And when deciding whether to release remains to a person,
13 the only matter you really had to rely on was this -- was the individual
14 certainty and conviction expressed by the family member or other person
15 who had viewed the remains. Is that correct?
16 A. The conviction in the identity, yes, but not because the family
17 member had viewed the remains, rather because the family member had
18 studied the identifying elements, including information on clothing,
19 footwear, objects found, anthropological data about gender, height, and so
20 on, and any other identifying characteristics.
21 Q. Yes. And you're right to correct me there. Because the person
22 doing the identifying was entitled to have regard to a large range of
23 possible identifying features. Is that right?
24 A. That's right, yes.
25 Q. But in the end it was the certainty of the identifier and not your
1 satisfaction about that person's certainty which determined the release of
2 the remains to that person. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes. Ultimately it's always the person who is to identify the
4 body who decides whether to accept the identification or not. It's not up
5 to the doctor to do that.
6 Q. And particularly that -- the answer you've just given I take it
7 was particularly true in a time of war where there was a high turnover of
8 such remains and you really had a lot of people in that situation to deal
9 with. Is that correct?
10 A. That's correct. With the leave of Their Honours, I would like to
11 add something.
12 Q. Yes, feel free.
13 A. In connection with your question as to how long the processing of
14 the remains lasted, I have to say that this was done in a clinical
15 hospital, as you have heard, in a hospital which has its patients, in a
16 city which has its dead. So we had to deal both with the hospital cases,
17 the normal city cases that would have occurred in peacetime, as well as
18 the war victims brought in from the field. And this limited the amount of
19 time we could spend on dealing with each body.
20 Q. I understand. If your hospital had endless resources and endless
21 pathologists to deploy those resources, there is technology in existence
22 that allows for the identification even of quite damaged remains, and I'm
23 speaking of DNA technology now. Given the state of the human remains that
24 you encountered on this occasion, would it have been possible to embark
25 upon DNA analysis and comparative analysis between the deceased on the one
1 hand and family members on the other hand to see whether some sort of DNA
2 match could be obtained in respect of those? And of course I am speaking
3 hypothetically here, but I am asking you whether that is a possible thing
4 that could happen.
5 A. It's not hypothetical. The only problem is that in 1994 when
6 these bodies were being processed, nothing was known of DNA. This method
7 had not been introduced yet in our hospital; it was introduced several
8 years later. Were this happening today, then these bodies would certainly
9 have been subjected to DNA identification.
10 Q. I understand. Very well. Okay. Thank you for that.
11 Now, just a couple more questions about the information that's on
12 the sheets there -- that is on the autopsy reports, I should say. With
13 respect to those, you have indicated -- rather than asking you a general
14 question, I shall ask you about specific cases, so just excuse me now.
15 Thank you.
16 Doctor, I'm going to ask you about some of the specific cases now,
17 and if you need to look at the notes, please feel free to do so, but I'll
18 be working through your statement in asking the questions that I ask.
19 Now, I want to take you first of all to the registered case
20 191/94. In this case, these remains were identified by the child of the
21 deceased. You've noted in your statement that you have no idea of the
22 cause of death. I want to ask you about the time of death. What is the
23 range of potential times that the individual identified as Ivan Zadro
24 might have died, given the state of what you had before you?
25 A. It's very difficult to answer this question in view of the state
1 of the remains. There was putrefaction going as far as skeletisation, so
2 it's difficult to establish the time of death. In any event, these were
3 not fresh corpses, they were old corpses. Whether they had been buried,
4 were in coffins, whether in the soil directly, all of this would influence
5 the speed of these changes of the putrefaction, so it's impossible to say.
6 In any case, they had been dead for quite a long time, but whether it was
7 several months or a year, it's hard to say.
8 Q. I think you've anticipated some questions I was going to ask you.
9 But once a body reaches the stage you found case 191/94 to be, it's just
10 impossible to give anything more than a very general estimate as to what
11 the minimum time was that the person had been dead for?
12 A. It's impossible.
13 Q. And in this case the best you can do really is to say this person
14 must have been dead for some months?
15 A. That's correct, yes.
16 Q. Very well. I want to take you to the next case, number 192/94.
17 This person was identified as Zivko Dreznjak. In this case you've noted a
18 defect on the skull, but noted also that it's not an indicator of death or
19 even of the timing of the skull defect. Is your position about the timing
20 of the death of this individual the same as it was in relation to the
21 previous one I asked you about, namely this person must have been dead for
22 some months but you can't say anymore?
23 A. That's correct, yes. As in the previous case, the same applies to
24 all these cases.
25 Q. Yes. And really it was impossible in relation to any of them to
1 establish a cause -- an actual cause of death. Is that correct?
2 A. That's correct, yes.
3 Q. I'm going to jump forward to one individual, and if you go to case
4 240/94, this is a person identified as Ivan Mandic who was brought to the
5 hospital on the 23rd of June. Do you have your notes about that? This
6 was one which you brought a separate report along to court about.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In your statement you noted that the description in the report
9 corresponds partially to photographs attached to the case. Now, what did
10 you mean by that phrase "corresponds partially"? Did you mean that
11 there's some areas that don't match or -- perhaps I'll leave it to you.
12 What did you mean by that phrase?
13 A. What I had in mind when I wrote this, I really can't say now why
14 it says "partially" here. It does correspond to the photographs. The
15 only thing is that on the photographs you can see more than is evident
16 from the record. This may be the reason why I inserted "partially."
17 Q. Yes, I understand. Do you have present in court with you a folder
18 of photographs which were taken during the time of the autopsies that you
20 A. I do not have the same set of photographs that you have, but I
21 have the originals with me.
22 Q. Very well. Could I ask you -- if you have the originals with you,
23 could I ask you, please, to produce the originals of the case number
24 240/94, the person identified as Ivan Mandic. Could I inquire, do you
25 have those present in the Tribunal room here right this moment or not?
1 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Very well. Would you just mind holding up those photographs and
3 displaying them so I can identify that I have the same ones that you have.
4 Could I just ask you to identify -- we're going to put them on a display
5 in a moment. Could you just identify please -- they're on the display
6 now; you've anticipated me. Thank you.
7 Very well. Could you just identify them one by one. The
8 photograph that's on the screen now, what does that depict?
9 A. It is a skull marked as S-240/94.
10 Q. Very well. Would you just display one after the other the
11 photographs that you have relevant to that case only at this stage,
13 A. [In English] That's the same.
14 Q. Yes. Thank you. Could you identify -- that's another part of the
15 same material?
16 A. [Interpretation] Correct.
17 Q. Now you're displaying a third photograph -- I have to say it out
18 loud for the record, doctor. You're now displaying a third photograph
19 which indicates bones belonging to the same item. Is that correct?
20 A. Correct. These are the bones as they were brought, whereas the
21 previous photograph depicted the skeleton that was composed of those
23 Q. Very well. You're now showing a fourth photograph. Does that
24 depict certain items of clothing that were associated with that skeleton?
25 A. Correct. Those are pieces of clothing.
1 Q. Can you move on to the next one, please.
2 A. What is the next one? I have two more, but they are similar if
3 not identical to the ones we've seen.
4 Q. I think for completeness perhaps we can just identify them. That
5 again is a photograph of skeletal bones associated with that item?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And finally -- and the sixth is a photograph depicting clothes
8 once again?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Very well. Thank you.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, I offer those for tender.
12 Q. In relation to those remains that you've noted there, it is the
13 case that no cause of death could be identified --
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
15 MR. WEINER: Yes, just one thing. We have no objection to
16 allowing those photographs to being tendered; however, those are part of
17 her own records, if we could make copies of them.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I would be perfectly satisfied with
19 that course as long as the Court sees no difficulty with it. Can I
20 indicate that the Prosecution were good enough to provide us with some
21 enlarged copies. And the question is not to going to descend to a level
22 of detail where the picture quality matters in a massive way. So I'd be
23 satisfied with that, as long the Court has no difficulty.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, of course, on our part there is not difficulty
25 at all. The only issue that -- after that copy, I hope the parties could
1 meet with the Court Deputy to find out the proper numbers for those, you
2 know, documents so that later on we could find out them very easily.
3 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.
4 MR. WEINER: Yes.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: That will be done.
6 Q. Thank you, doctor. I'm sorry. I was going to ask you about the
7 cause of death and then I can't remember if I got the answer or not, but I
8 think -- the question was: There was no cause of death able to be
9 established in relation to this individual. Is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And looking to that, what you've got there, that individual could
12 just have easily have died from shooting, stabbing, clubbing to death, or
13 a heart attack. Is that true?
14 A. In theory, yes.
15 Q. Very well. I'll return back to the chronological list of persons,
16 and I'd ask you now to consider case 188/94, remains identified as Ruza
17 Maric. With respect to placing a time on that -- on the death of that
18 person, I take it the same answer is applicable, namely that you can say
19 this person had been dead for some months but you can't say any more than
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And is it correct to say the same in respect to cases 194/94,
23 195/94, 196/94, 197/94, 198/94, and 199/94?
24 A. In all of these cases, the same applies: The cause of death could
25 not be determined.
1 Q. Now, I've got a question for you about the contemporaneity of the
2 deaths of all the individuals you saw. Could I put this proposition to
3 you: You can't comment on whether or not they died at or around the same
4 time, is that accurate, based of course on your expert analysis rather
5 than external information?
6 A. Certainly. Based only on our findings, I cannot say that they
7 died at the same time, but I can say equally that it is possible they
8 found their deaths at the same time.
9 Q. Yes. Very well. Just excuse me a moment. I may have some
10 residual questions and then we'll be finished.
11 The use of the phrase in the autopsy report "violent death of
12 unknown cause," which is to be seen in some of the reports is not a
13 pathological finding but a description suitable to that form based upon
14 external information outside of your field of expertise. Is that
16 A. Well, that diagnosis which runs through all these cases, violent
17 death of unknown cause, you find it in each of these reports, contains
18 this word "violent." Violent death is a term that does not in itself
19 designate the cause of death, so it shouldn't be here in a manner of
20 speaking. But it was written there because we were talking about
21 casualties, victims of war, and it is assumed that each one of them died a
22 violent death. But I agree with you, that brings us no nearer to the
23 cause of death from a medical point of view. Or, with your leave, I
24 would like to add.
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. The forms attached to the reports entitled "the registration of
2 the fact of death" contain a column, a rubric titled "information on the
3 cause of death." The law envisages three cases: Homicide, suicide, and
4 violent and --
5 THE INTERPRETER: And the third one was not caught by the
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of these qualify as violent
8 death. And that is the only reason why we used this, especially in the
9 Latin version, "mors violenta," violent death. In other words, we
10 pathologists were not in a position either then or now to establish which
11 kind of death it was. Death by misadventure was the third category,
12 homicide, or suicide. I know you are very familiar with this. So there
13 were three categories of violent death: Homicide, suicide, and accident
14 or death by misadventure.
15 MR. MORRISSEY:
16 Q. And the designated category in this case was the third one --
17 sorry, pardon me. I'll ask you the question again because there was a
18 difficulty with the interpretation earlier on.
19 The term that is used -- that you used -- just excuse me. I just
20 want to put it to you accurately. The term "violent death of unknown
21 cause" is a pro forma term used on the forms as one of a limited number of
22 legal alternatives that's allowed to you to fill out the form. Is that
24 A. Yes, correct.
25 Q. Thank you. Those are the questions. Thank you.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
2 Any re-direct, Mr. Weiner?
3 MR. WEINER: Just a few questions.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.
5 Re-examined by Mr. Weiner:
6 Q. Now, doctor, you indicated it was possible that all of these
7 people died at the same time.
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Based on your training and experience, could these persons have
10 died in September of 1993?
11 A. That's very possible.
12 Q. Now, there was some discussion with regard to certainty of
13 identification of remains by family members, and you mentioned that in
14 addition the family member you also rely on anthropological data. Can you
15 please explain what the reliance is on anthropological data.
16 A. Anthropological data for the purposes of our discussion relate to
17 identifying age, gender, height, and in our case not race because there is
18 only a single race in our territory, plus certain features such as old
19 fractures, deformities, and things like that. There are certain
20 anthropological methods that are applied in order to determine age,
21 gender, and all the other elements that I mentioned. If you wish a more
22 precise answer, I can enumerate them.
23 Q. Well, let me just ask you one question. With regard to gender or
24 sex, by looking at those skeletal remains, whether it's the skulls or the
25 other bones in each of those bodies, can you determine whether those
1 remains belong to a man or a woman?
2 A. Certainly. Of course I can.
3 Q. So if you see in front of you the remains of a male or a man and
4 some family member comes in and says, That is my sister, those are the
5 remains of my sister, what action do you take? Do you turn the body
6 over --
7 A. Then of course we would not agree on this identification. I'm
8 speaking hypothetically of course. It could happen that a female can bear
9 some male characteristics or a man can bear some female characteristics.
10 A man can be short, have a broad pelvis, has lumps on the bones,
11 et cetera, in which case certain additional methods are used to achieve a
12 positive identification of sex or gender. So we confront the family
13 member or we give them additional anthropological elements on the basis of
14 which it can be proven that one or the other is true.
15 Q. So basically in addition to an individual's identification of a
16 family member, you also use other scientific means to confirm that
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, I would object to that.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
20 MR. MORRISSEY: First of all, it's a leading question and secondly
21 it's turning a positive -- getting a positive out of the negative. I
22 think the thrust of what the witness was saying was that she would decline
23 to accept an identification in certain terms, not that she would
24 scientifically confirm one. And so I object both to the form and the
25 substance of the question.
1 JUDGE LIU: To me there's no problem with this question because,
2 you know, we have to give the witness an opportunity to explain what is in
3 her mind. Of course the witness is an expert; she has the full right to
4 agree with the Prosecution or disagree with them.
5 Yes, you may proceed.
6 MR. WEINER:
7 Q. My question is basically: In addition to an individual's
8 identification of a family member, do you also use scientific methods to
9 corroborate that identification?
10 A. I will start from the beginning. The main methods of
11 identification - and we will not be speaking now of highly sophisticated
12 scientific methods as DNA matches - we are talking now about basic
13 identification methods. What are they based on? They are based on
14 comparing data provided by the family with data obtained by clinical
15 examination of a dead body. If this data coincide, we get a positive
16 identification; if they do not coincide, it is a negative identification.
17 It is a fact that an identification is not based on a single
18 element; it is based on a whole complex, a whole set of elements.
19 Therefore, a person cannot be identified only by finding a wallet that the
20 family recognised as the wallet of their family member, of their loved
21 one. A whole series of identification elements have to coincide to
22 provide for a positive identification.
23 Q. Thank you, doctor.
24 MR. WEINER: No further questions, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
1 At this stage are there any documents to tender? Mr. Weiner,
2 would you please read out the numbers of those documents again.
3 MR. MORRISSEY: While my friend is doing that, Your Honour, I
4 indicated a potential objection to the last of the four; I withdraw that
5 objection in light of the answers given.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
7 MR. WEINER: The first document or set of documents are the
8 autopsy reports, which is number 136 on our Prosecution 65 ter list which
9 has the ERN of 0105-7280 and it runs through 7353. So 0105-7280 through
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. What's the MFI number?
12 MR. WEINER: That's --
13 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Court Deputy, do you have it?
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 166, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
16 MR. WEINER: MFI 167 is the witness's statement and proofing
17 notes. The -- which would be MFI 167.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Mr. Weiner.
19 MR. WEINER: Okay. And then the third or the final document is
20 the additional autopsy report 240/96 which at this point does not -- I'm
21 sorry, 240/94 which at this point does not have an ERN number.
22 JUDGE LIU: Is it possible for it to have an MFI number?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Weiner, that can be included with MFI 166 and
24 scanned accordingly, so it will have one MFI.
25 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
2 I guess there's no objections from the Defence?
3 MR. MORRISSEY: None, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Those documents are admitted
5 into evidence.
6 On the part of the Defence?
7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Your Honour, we would seek to tender as a
8 single exhibit the bundle of paragraphs which would tendered as MFI 168, I
10 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Mr. Morrissey, that would be
11 MFI 168.
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. And I hope for each photograph
13 there is -- should be some ID numbers. For instance, the slash 1, slash 2
14 or slash A, slash B, so we can know what document it is.
15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, according to procedure, all documents
16 brought into the Tribunal are ERNd. What I can do is have ERN numbers
17 placed on those photographs when they are finally prepared, as well as the
18 final autopsy report which may help the Court.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. But an ERN number is so
20 complicated. Sometimes it is very difficult to remember, so I prefer the
21 slash 1, slash 2, these kinds of things. I'm entirely in the hands of the
22 Court Deputy to do that.
24 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, Mr. Weiner and I as two counsel could
25 easily make a mess of it but we'll do what we can.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
2 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give
3 your evidence. I believe that your expert testimony is very helpful to
4 this case. And after we adjourn, the usher will show you out of the room
5 and we wish you a very pleasant journey back home. And after that we'll
6 hear the next witness I guess. And we'll take our break for 25 minutes
7 and we'll resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, as for the next witness, I guess there's no
13 protective measures?
14 Yes, could we have the witness, please.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.
17 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].
18 JUDGE LIU: I didn't hear the translation. Can you hear me?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
20 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in
21 accordance with the paper Ms. Usher is showing to you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
25 Yes, Mr. Re.
1 WITNESS: ERDIN ARNAUTOVIC
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examined by Mr. Re:
4 Q. Good morning. Is your name Erdin Arnautovic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Nickname Dino?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you were born on the 13th of September, 1958?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Your occupation is a taxi driver?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I'm just going to ask you a series of questions. Is it correct
13 that you did no JNA military service after you left school because of a
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You're not a member of a political party now nor during the war?
17 A. No, I'm not.
18 Q. In April 1992, you joined the Green Berets and the
19 Patriotic League at about the time hostilities started in Sarajevo?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Later that year in about June you joined the 3rd Mountain Brigade
22 which later merged with the 9th Motorised Brigade, which was part of the
23 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The corps commander of the 1st Corps command was Vahid Karavelic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You were a soldier involved in the defence in Sarajevo from the
3 outset and you were wounded, shot in the knee in May of 1992?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You were in hospital or hospitalised for at least ten days?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. After that you were given a role in logistics?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The commander of the 9th Motorised Brigade was Sulejman Imsirovic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The deputy commander was Ramiz Delalic, nickname Celo?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Celo means "bold" in Bosnian; it can also mean head or main guy or
15 A. Well, he had hair on his head, but they still called him Celo.
16 Q. What do you call him?
17 A. I called him Ramiz or Celo.
18 Q. And do you regard him as a friend of yours?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in 1993 were you in working -- sorry, was your role as a
21 logistics officer in the assault unit which was personally commanded by
22 Ramiz Delalic?
23 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I object to that.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: That contained a proposition that the assault unit
1 was personally commanded by Ramiz Delalic, and that's the sort of
2 information that can't be led but needs to be asked in a proper way.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe we are at the stage of going step by step
4 at this sage.
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. I'll take you back a step, Mr. Arnautovic. Was there an assault
7 unit within the 9th Motorised Brigade?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you in that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were you its logistics officer?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who was the commander of that unit?
14 A. In that period, it was Malco Rovcanin.
15 Q. And after that?
16 A. After that when we went to Grabovica, it was Zuti, Zuti was his
17 nickname. I didn't know his real name.
18 Q. Which leads right to going to Grabovica. In September 1993 before
19 you went to Grabovica, where were you stationed?
20 A. In Sarajevo.
21 Q. How did you learn that you were going to go to Grabovica?
22 A. The 1st Corps Vahid Karavelic summoned us and lined us up in front
23 of our command. They gave us the order that we were to set out toward
25 Q. What did he say to you -- sorry. I withdraw that.
1 How many people were lined up and what did he say to you?
2 A. About 120 men were lined up and he read out an order that we were
3 to go to Jablanica and we would be put under Zuka's command there. He
4 would be in charge of the operation and we would apply to him for whatever
5 we needed. We were given some weapons, some lunch packages, and some
6 cigarettes when we set out toward Jablanica.
7 Q. Did he tell you what the operation was that you would be involved
9 A. Liberating Mostar. We were to go in the direction of Mostar to
10 liberate that area.
11 Q. What was the size of the brigade? How many men were in the
12 9th Motorised Brigade and the 1st Corps?
13 A. In the brigade there were about 5.000.
14 Q. What was the process by which 120 people came to be lined up
15 before the 1st Corps commander? How were they chosen?
16 A. We were told to take reconnaissance men and sabotage men from each
17 unit, men who were sappers and so on, and to take four or five men from
18 each unit.
19 Q. When you say "from each unit," do you mean from the 1st Corps or
20 the 9th?
21 A. The 9th Motorised.
22 Q. What about the 10th Brigade, that's Adnan Solakovic's -- I'm
23 sorry, the 2nd Independent Brigade. Were there soldiers from there in
24 that line-up as well? That's Adnan Solakovic's brigade.
25 A. They arrived there before us. And when we arrived there, we found
1 them in Grabovica, and the 10th Mountain who were in Jablanica and some
2 other areas.
3 Q. Did Commander Karavelic tell you how you were to get to Grabovica?
4 A. When you pass through the tunnel, we would be met by trucks in
5 Hrasnica and from there we would be transported by truck as far as
7 Q. You're referring to the tunnel under Sarajevo airport?
8 A. Yes. Yes, yes.
9 Q. What day was that that he lined you up in front of the -- lined
10 you up and gave you these orders?
11 A. It was the 7th. I know it was night. It was at about 7.00 p.m.
12 When we were lined up in front of our command in Trapo Street.
13 Q. Did you leave for Grabovica that same night?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you in fact met by trucks?
16 A. When we arrived, we had problems about transportation in Hrasnica.
17 Q. Were those problems resolved?
18 A. Yes. We called for Ramiz Delalic to come to Hrasnica and see what
19 was happening.
20 Q. As a result of that, did trucks arrive and did you leave for
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. How many trucks were required to transport the group of soldiers
24 to Grabovica?
25 A. Three trucks.
1 Q. Did you drive through the night?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were there any incidents -- did any incidents occur along the way
4 between your soldiers and police at checkpoints?
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I object to this. Your Honour, if this is a
6 matter that's supposed to be within the knowledge of Mr. Halilovic, it
7 might conceivably be relevant. If it's just an incident concerning this
8 individual and police or people from that unit and police, then it's
9 irrelevant, and I object to the question on the grounds of relevance.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. What's the relevance of this piece of evidence?
11 MR. RE: The relevance goes strictly and only to this: I
12 anticipate the witness will say there was an incident which was reported
13 in a report by the police which gives a date, and the date is on the
14 report. It only goes to the date being the date of this witness and his
15 men leaving Sarajevo and arriving in Grabovica. That's all.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well -- yes, Mr. Morrissey.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry. Well, Your Honour, the witness has given a
18 direct, clear answer as to when the date was that he left, and there's no
19 need for him to be shown any document unless there be some basis for
20 him -- that he was the author or something of that nature or saw the
21 document at the time. At the moment he's given a clear answer, and it
22 seems both irrelevant and also unnecessary establish what my friend says
23 the purpose of it is.
24 JUDGE LIU: The question is if you have any disputes. If there's
25 none, then we have settled it.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: No.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, what time -- approximately what do you mean
5 did -- I withdraw that.
6 You said you drove through the night to get to Grabovica. Did you
7 go somewhere before you got to Grabovica? Where did you stop en route?
8 A. We had problems in a place called Pazaric.
9 Q. Moving on from there, where did you stop next?
10 A. We stopped in Jablanica next.
11 Q. At what time did you go to Jablanica?
12 A. We got there in the morning.
13 Q. Was it light or dark?
14 A. It was already light. It was daylight.
15 Q. How long was it after dawn? Can you give an approximate time of
16 when you arrived there?
17 A. It was around 8.00 a.m. approximately.
18 Q. Did anyone meet you, this is your group of soldiers, when you got
20 A. Yes. We were met by Zuka's logistics and Zuka's men.
21 Q. Where was that? Where did you meet them?
22 A. In front of Zuka's headquarters in Gornja Jablanica, I think it
23 was called.
24 Q. What about Zuka? You said your orders were that you were to
25 become commanded by Zuka when you got to Grabovica. Did you meet Zuka? ?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What's his name? That's his nickname; what's his full name?
3 A. I didn't know it at the time, but later I learned it was Zulfikar
5 Q. Did you meet him on arrival or at some later point?
6 A. I can't remember precisely, but he stayed there, he slept there,
7 he was there all the time.
8 Q. What about his deputy? Did he have a deputy, and if so did you
9 meet his deputy?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was his deputy's name and when did you meet him?
12 A. Nihko, Nihad. That was his name as far as I can recall.
13 Q. When did you first meet him?
14 A. That day I met many of them.
15 Q. What did Zuka or his men tell you when you got to Jablanica --
16 Zuka's base in Jablanica about what you were to do and where you were to
17 go and so on?
18 A. We were told we would be billeted in Jablanica, but however they
19 then told us to go on to Grabovica and that we would be billeted there.
20 Q. Did they say who you would be billeted with in Grabovica?
21 A. No, they didn't tell us right away. They just said everything had
22 been taken care of. We didn't even know there would be some sort of
23 population there and that they would be living there.
24 Q. Were you aware at that time when you first arrived at Zuka's base
25 whether or not there were any ABiH units then in Grabovica?
1 A. I didn't know that some other units had arrived there before us.
2 Q. How long did you remain in Jablanica for approximately?
3 A. An hour or two perhaps so that the fighters could have a rest, and
4 then we went to accommodate ourselves in Grabovica.
5 Q. How did you get there?
6 A. By truck.
7 Q. Did anyone meet you when you went to -- when you arrived in
9 A. Adnan Solakovic's men were there and some others, and then we were
10 told to find accommodation in those houses. I don't know what Zuka's main
11 logistics man was called.
12 Q. Who told you to find accommodation in those houses and which
13 houses are you referring to?
14 A. When we arrived in that village there were houses there; I can't
15 say how many. We were told to find accommodation there. They said
16 everything would be all right and there would be no problems; however,
17 when the men went to find accommodation, there were local people there who
18 opposed their staying in those houses.
19 Q. You said "we were told to find accommodation," were you referring
20 then to the men at Zuka's base telling you to find accommodation at
22 A. Yes. They said everything had been taken care of and agreed with
23 the local people and that there would be no problems.
24 Q. What did you do, you personally, to find accommodation for the men
25 who were with you when you arrived in Grabovica?
1 A. I was near Adnan Solakovic's house where his men where; I was
2 across the road from there. And when people started finding
3 accommodation, they came back and said, Nobody wants us there in those
4 houses. And then I said, We'll see what the problem is when these main
5 men arrive.
6 Q. You just said "when people started finding accommodation," are you
7 referring to the soldiers who came with you on the trucks?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You just said "nobody wants us there in those houses." Who is the
10 nobody that you're referring to?
11 A. The local people who lived in those houses. They didn't want to
12 take anyone in.
13 Q. What was their ethnicity or nationality?
14 A. They were Croats.
15 Q. Were you told why they didn't want to take members of the ABiH in?
16 A. Well, allegedly the people from the corps who had been there had
17 agreed that they would put us up, but there was some sort of
18 misunderstanding about our accommodation.
19 Q. Were you able to find accommodation for yourself and your men?
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, excuse me, Your Honour, please.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: He hasn't said that he had any men at this stage
23 and if it's to be suggested that he -- the witness was in command of some
24 men or had men under his control, then the Prosecutor ought to lead that
25 evidence before he states it and puts it to the witness as a fact built
1 into a question.
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe the men means the people because the
3 witness said that when people started finding accommodations. Then a
4 question asks: "Are you referring to soldiers who came with you on the
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, I agree with that, Your Honour, but it's the
7 next section that's the problem.
8 MR. RE: I can rephrase it. I don't mean they're under his
9 command, but I can rephrase it.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.
11 MR. RE:
12 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, were you able to find accommodation for yourself
13 and that group of soldiers that arrived with you in Grabovica?
14 A. I found an empty house for myself and a group, and another group
15 was accommodated above where we were when Vehbija Karic and five or six
16 others arrived to check what was going on and whether we had found
18 Q. Go on. I withdraw that. You said you found an empty house. Why
19 did you choose this empty house for yourself?
20 A. Well, because of the ammunition and all that, food, cigarettes so
21 I could store it all and not have people take it and carry it off because
22 there was a meadow there.
23 Q. Was it your responsibility as the logistics officer to look after
24 these supplies?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was that a house in which you felt you would be able to secure
2 those logistics supplies?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. RE: I want to show the witness Exhibit P3, please.
5 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, just have a look at the screen in front of you.
6 Do you recognise that as a photograph of the village of Grabovica?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What I want you to do is with a pen, I want you to mark several
9 things on it. First of all, can you see in that photograph the place
10 where your trucks of men arrived on the morning of the 8th of September,
11 1993? Firstly I'm asking you, can you see it before I ask you to mark.
12 Can you see the place where the trucks arrived?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you see the house where you stored your logistics supplies?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. Can you please circle -- sorry, place a 1 in the
17 place where the trucks arrived.
18 MR. RE: It appears not to be working, Your Honour.
19 If it's a technical problem requiring resolution, I can always
20 return to his marking of two photographs at a later point.
21 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, so you know what I'm going to do, I'm going to ask
22 you to mark on this photograph and another one the place where the bus
23 arrived -- or sorry, the trucks arrived; the place where you stayed, the
24 house you secured; and the houses in which other soldiers stayed. But
25 we'll come back to that.
1 You --
2 A. Am I supposed to mark this?
3 Q. Not just yet.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. Now, you referred earlier to some commanders or I think you said
7 main men arriving in Grabovica. I want you to just tell the Trial Chamber
8 what happened before they arrived. You said you went looking -- you went
9 looking for accommodation, you found one house. What about the other
10 soldiers? Did they -- which houses did they stay in or find? There was a
11 house where some soldiers had found accommodation and the rest were unable
12 to find accommodation. So they began to complain and a problem arose
13 because they didn't know where they would sleep.
14 Q. And on the photograph which should still be on the screen, can you
15 see the houses there where soldiers managed to find somewhere to stay?
16 A. This was the house where I was put up. The other soldiers were
17 here. In this house lower, down here, was Solakovic's. And then there
18 were other houses in which other soldiers were placed.
19 Q. You said the soldiers began to complain. Who did they complain
21 A. They came to complain to me. They said, We have nowhere to sleep.
22 How are we going to be accommodated? There's nothing here.
23 Q. What was your response?
24 A. I said, Well, let's see. I'll go to see Zuka and see what the
25 problem is, why there is know accommodation for us. Shortly after that,
1 four or five of them came, among them Mehmed Karic who said that he was
2 the one in charge, that they had taken care of accommodation. And when my
3 men started rumbling and saying there was no actually accommodation
4 available, he said, Don't you pay attention to those who tell you no.
5 Anyone who says a word against it will be thrown into the Neretva
7 Q. This Karic you just mentioned, what was his position or his rank;
8 do you know?
9 A. If I remember correctly, he had a higher rank because he served in
10 the former army and he brought his former rank with him. I think he was
11 in the artillery or something.
12 Q. Do you know how high his rank was?
13 A. I don't know. I think they assigned rank to each other or assumed
14 ranks at will. I think it was only in 1997 that ranks were actually
15 distributed properly.
16 Q. Where was it that you had this meeting with Mr. Karic and the
18 A. We met up in front of this house where I was located.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, it's certainly not the witness's
20 fault and it's not Mr. Re's fault either. The difficulty is we can't see
21 where the witness is indicating, so it's a bit difficult for us to follow
22 what's happening here.
23 MR. RE: I'll produce a hard copy photograph and put it on the
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe that's the best way.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Re, you may ask the witness to mark on that
3 hard copy, and later on we'll have it scanned into the system.
4 MR. RE: I will do.
5 For the record, I'm going to show the witness photographs P3 and
6 Exhibit P7, 0149-4608 and 4612.
7 While we're finding the hard copies, I'll move on. I will get
8 back to that.
9 Q. How many of the soldiers were with you when Mr. Karic spoke to
11 A. There were over a hundred soldiers including Adnan Solakovic's
12 soldiers because everybody was keen to hear what was going to be said.
13 Q. Describe how the soldiers were grouped in relation to Mr. Karic
14 and the people with him.
15 A. He was standing right outside the house and the soldiers made a
16 semicircle around him, around the house.
17 Q. You said there were four or five in his group and you said that
18 Mr. Karic was of a high rank or a high-ranking person. Were those people
19 with him also high ranking?
20 A. If I remember correctly, they were from the corps and I think I
21 remember it clearly.
22 Q. Did they have any uniforms or insignia or anything to signify to
23 you what rank they may have had or the position they may have had within
24 the corps?
25 A. Well, they had insignia of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but
1 at that time I don't remember anybody had any ranks. And it simply worked
2 this way: If you were in the corps, then you were of a higher rank.
3 Q. You mean by that that the people with Mr. Karic appeared to you to
4 be of high rank. Is that what you're saying?
5 A. It's not that it appeared to me. I know that they had a high rank
6 in the corps and in the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
7 Q. When Karic was addressing you and you were speaking to him, were
8 you paying attention to who these other ranking people from the corps
10 A. At that time I wasn't really paying attention to memorise who was
11 there. I was rather paying attention to what was being said and I was
12 trying to find the logic of putting up us there together with camp inmates
13 from western Mostar.
14 Q. Right. Returning to the photographs now, is the on-screen marking
15 now working?
16 Okay. If you could please look at photograph Exhibit P3 -- in
17 fact, I think we're being shown P7. I want you to mark with a 1 the place
18 where the trucks arrived.
19 A. You mean on both photographs? There are two them, one here and
20 one here.
21 Q. Can you just make that a little bit larger, please, and maybe put
22 a circle around it.
23 A. [Marks].
24 Q. All right. I want you to mark with a 2 and also a circle the
25 house which you secured for yourself.
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. Maybe you could put the 2 outside the circle with an arrow leading
3 to it so it's clear.
4 A. [Marks].
5 Q. And with a 3, the house where Adnan Solakovic's men were staying.
6 A. [Marks].
7 Q. You also mentioned another house where his men were. Can you mark
8 that with a 4 please.
9 A. You mean another house where Adnan Solakovic's soldiers were
10 located? Adnan was there in that house at the entry to Grabovica, and
11 this is the house where his soldiers were put up.
12 Q. That's the one with a number 3?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Okay. Could we now turn please to photograph Exhibit P7.
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, sorry, just before -- I don't want
16 to cause trouble here. On my screen here, the number 3 didn't appear
17 where the witness was going to mark the number 3 in relation to where he
18 says Solakovic's men were at. We have got a 2 marked clearly, and then we
19 lose the 3.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes. On my screen I didn't see it either.
21 MR. MORRISSEY: Perhaps it was just an oversight. Perhaps if the
22 witness marks a 3 and then --
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
24 Could we try that again?
25 MR. RE: It's just disappeared. We'll start the whole thing
1 again, I think.
2 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, can you please put -- go back and put the 1s on
3 again for the place where the trucks arrived; the 2 where -- the house
4 which you secured for yourself.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. Is that clear now?
7 MR. RE: May that receive an MFI 169?
8 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Mr. Re, that will be MFI 169.
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. Can we now turn to Prosecution Exhibit 7.
11 Mr. Arnautovic, do you recognise that photograph as an enlargement
12 of the section of the photograph you just marked a moment ago, which was
13 Exhibit P3?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you see in that photograph the house in which -- which you
16 secured for yourself?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Does that also show the place where the trucks arrived?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And just so we have the same marking, can you please mark with a 1
21 and a circle where the trucks arrived.
22 A. [Marks].
23 Q. A 2 for the house which you secured.
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. Can you possibly put the circle a bit larger so there's more space
1 between the figure and the circle. The house at the bottom, that was the
2 one you marked with a 3 before. Is that correct? Where Adnan Solakovic's
3 soldiers were staying.
4 A. This house here.
5 Q. Okay. There's a house above that. Were any soldiers accommodated
6 in that house?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Which soldiers were they?
9 A. Of the 9th Motorised Brigade.
10 Q. How many soldiers to your knowledge were accommodated in that
11 particular house?
12 A. If I remember correctly, there were five or six soldiers there.
13 Q. Do you remember whether there were any Croat residents in that
14 particular house when the soldiers went there?
15 A. I remember -- I remember two women and a male.
16 Q. And what happened to them when the soldiers came to get
17 accommodated or to seek accommodation in that particular house? Do you
18 know what their response was?
19 A. They complained, too, that they were not willing to allow anyone
21 Q. Can you please mark that house with a 4.
22 A. [Marks].
23 Q. What about the house below that you've marked number 3 were the
24 Croats living there or staying there when the soldiers from the ABiH
25 sought accommodation?
1 A. I don't know what happened there because Adnan Solakovic's men
2 arrived there before us. I don't know if there had been anyone in that
3 house before.
4 Q. And can you see on this photograph the place where the meeting
5 between Mr. Karic and high-ranking officers and men from -- lower-ranking
6 soldiers which are colloquially called as your men - the men you were
7 with - took place. Is that on the photograph?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you please mark that area with as large a circle as you need
10 to do and a 5.
11 A. This is where the troops were.
12 Q. And you've drawn a half circle, a sort of crescent. Where were
13 the --
14 A. That's how the troops were standing.
15 Q. Where you've put the 5, are you indicating that's where Mr. Karic
16 was standing, approximately?
17 A. Yes. That's the place. There were a terrace of some sort.
18 Q. And the troops were standing in a semicircle, grouped around him
19 when he was addressing you?
20 A. [No interpretation].
21 MR. RE: Is that 5 clear enough for the Trial Chamber?
22 JUDGE LIU: It's okay for me. I notice Mr. Morrissey is nodding,
23 so there's no problem on their part.
24 MR. RE: Can that be received into evidence as MFI 170, please.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. There's no objection. So this document as well
1 as 169 are admitted into evidence.
2 MR. RE:
3 Q. What was the response of the soldiers to Mr. Karic's remark about
4 throwing the civilians into the river?
5 A. Some of them laughed and said, No problem, when he said, If
6 anybody's putting up resistance just throw them into the river.
7 Q. What was your own personal response?
8 A. I personally found it strange to hear that because I could feel
9 that something was wrong. There must be some sort of trick, snag.
10 Q. When you heard it, did you consider it to be an order?
11 A. The way it was said - and it was said in front of troops who lost
12 relatives, family members, et cetera - and you didn't need to tell them
13 twice, something like that.
14 Q. What do you mean by that?
15 A. There were some among the troops whose families were wiped out or
16 who lost loved ones, et cetera, and who were not reluctant to settle
17 personal scores.
18 Q. Were you concerned because of your knowledge of the soldiers'
19 personal circumstances as to the effect -- as to what might happen when
20 Mr. Karic said that?
21 A. It's not so much that I was concerned. I was more concerned
22 because there were many units, not only Adnan Solakovic. There was the
23 Handzar Division, there were other units. There were also former camp
24 inmates from western Mostar. And the atmosphere was such that anything
25 could happen.
1 Q. What did you do after Mr. Karic had said that to the assembled
3 A. I did nothing. I asked the logistics for some mattresses for
4 people to find whatever accommodation in the houses they could make,
5 improvise, even crammed, pending combat operations.
6 Q. Where did you get the mattresses from?
7 A. From Zuka's logistics unit.
8 Q. Jablanica or in Grabovica?
9 A. In Jablanica in the headquarters.
10 Q. After Mr. Karic's remark about throwing the civilians in the
11 river, did you travel to Jablanica, to Zuka's base?
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
14 MR. MORRISSEY: Once again, I object to leading on matters that
15 may become of some importance; this is clearly one.
16 MR. RE: With respect, it's not leading. It's a question: Did
17 you go there? The witness can answer yes, no. I'm not suggesting he did
18 go there.
19 JUDGE LIU: You can ask, what did you do after that? This is more
20 neutral, you know.
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, you've told the Trial Chamber that you were in
23 Jablanica in the morning before you went to Grabovica and you've just said
24 Mr. Karic made a remark about throwing some civilians in the river. Did
25 you at any stage in that day as logistics officer return to the base in
1 Jablanica or did you remain in Grabovica?
2 A. I went several times between Jablanica and Grabovica. I made
3 several trips there and back.
4 Q. Having heard -- I withdraw that.
5 Where was Ramiz Delalic on the 8th of September?
6 A. Ramiz had stayed back in Konjic to purchase some weapons,
7 supplies, and later he came to the headquarters.
8 Q. That's in Jablanica?
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Just a minute.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, this has got to stop. Let the
12 witness say where the headquarters was and don't tell him, in my
13 submission, where they were.
14 MR. RE: I didn't think it's an issue that Zuka as based in
15 Jablanica, and the witness has already said he was there and that was
16 where the headquarters were.
17 JUDGE LIU: The witness answered that later he came to the
18 headquarters. And then you asked that's in Jablanica? I think there's no
19 problem with that.
20 MR. RE:
21 Q. The headquarters, were they in -- are they the ones you're
22 referring to as Zuka's base in Jablanica?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you see Ramiz Delalic in Jablanica at the headquarters on that
1 A. He arrived sometime towards the evening because he had spent the
2 entire day in Konjic and he arrived at the headquarters in the evening.
3 Q. Did you meet him on that day he headquarters in Jablanica?
4 A. Yes, of course. I saw him. I naturally dropped by for coffee.
5 He was there together with Malco Rovcanin.
6 Q. Did you discuss with anyone else what Mr. Karic had said to you
7 about throwing the civilians in the river?
8 A. Well, when I came to get the mattresses, I chatted with them and I
9 said, By the way, you had told me that the accommodation was taken care
10 of, but that wasn't true. It was all empty talk. You said it was all
11 taken care of and it wasn't. But I didn't go into detail -- I didn't tell
12 that story in detail because there was some people around whom I didn't
13 know that well.
14 Q. I'm just going back to your last answer. I'll break it down.
15 When you came to get the mattresses, are you referring to mattresses
16 stored at Zuka's base, the logistics section in Jablanica?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You said "I chatted with them." Who is them?
19 A. Zuka's soldiers.
20 Q. Did you tell anyone in a higher position than you were as
21 logistics officer about what Mr. Karic had said?
22 A. I didn't understand your question.
23 Q. You said Mr. Karic had made a remark about throwing the civilians
24 into the river when he was addressing a large group of soldiers. After
25 that did you discuss with or tell anyone of a position higher than you in
1 the army what Mr. Karic had said?
2 A. When I arrived in Jablanica in Zuka's headquarters, I told them
3 about it. When Ramiz and Malco Rovcanin were there, I said there was some
4 sort of misunderstanding; there's no accommodation there or anything. I
5 complained to them.
6 Q. Did you tell them what Mr. Karic had said about throwing the
7 civilians in the river?
8 A. Yes. I mentioned that that was said.
9 Q. Was that to Ramiz Delalic and Malco Rovcanin?
10 A. I told Ramiz, and there was some others there from Zuka's men,
11 Nihad or Nihko was there and four or five others.
12 Q. What was their response to what you said?
13 A. When I told them that, I said, Well, I've come to fetch some
14 mattresses and we'll manage somehow; everything will be all right.
15 Q. Did you get the mattresses?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you take them back to Grabovica?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you stay in Grabovica on the night of the 8th? That's the
20 first night you arrived there.
21 A. Yes, I did. I stayed there -- I went back and forth three or four
22 times to get everything that the soldiers needed.
23 Q. Did you stay in the house which you marked I think with a 2
24 before on MFI 169 and MFI 170 were the exhibit numbers?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What did you do the next morning, that's the 9th of September --
2 before we come to that, who did you stay with in the white house -- sorry,
3 the white house marked number 2?
4 A. I was there; Elvedin Music was there; Hajric, a young man who was
5 killed later; and another man, I can't recall his name now, who guarded
6 the things I had brought there, the weapons and everything else.
7 Q. What happened the next morning? That's the morning of the 9th of
9 A. I went to Jablanica.
10 Q. Why did you go to Jablanica?
11 A. I went there because I had some business to take care of regarding
12 the security of the men.
13 Q. Did you return to Grabovica?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How many times did you go between Grabovica and Jablanica on
16 the 9th?
17 A. I can't recall precisely. Two or three times I had a car, so I
18 went back and forth because they were getting ready to go into action, to
19 go into battle.
20 Q. What was the business you had to take care of regarding the
21 security of the men?
22 A. I had to get packed lunches for them so that they would be ready
23 to go into action.
24 Q. Where did you stay on the second night? That's the night of the
25 9th of September.
1 A. I was in Jablanica.
2 Q. Why did you stay in Jablanica that night?
3 A. There was an agreement there about a meeting. They were
4 discussing the attacks and all that.
5 Q. Who is "they"?
6 A. Ramiz was there, the people from the corps, Zuka, Sefer was there
7 I recall.
8 Q. Sefer, who's Sefer?
9 A. The commander of the army.
10 Q. Sefer's his given name. What's his family name?
11 A. Halilovic.
12 Q. Did you participate in these meetings or did you only hear about
14 A. No. I remained outside.
15 Q. Where were these meetings taking place?
16 A. In Zuka's headquarters. There was some sort of coffee bar there,
17 and behind there were two other rooms.
18 Q. I'm going to ask you now about the next day, which was the 10th of
19 September, 1993. You said you stayed overnight in Jablanica. The
20 previous day you had travelled between Grabovica and Jablanica several
21 times. Did you return to Grabovica on the 10th of September?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. At approximately what time did you go there and who did you go
24 there with?
25 A. Well, there were -- I don't know. It might have been 9.00 or
1 10.00 I went with Ramiz Delalic, I set out with him.
2 Q. How far did you get?
3 A. We set out from Jablanica and we had arrived to a point just
4 before Grabovica. That was the first time that he was going there.
5 Q. At what point did you arrive to? Are you saying you stopped on
6 the way?
7 A. We were going from Jablanica in the direction of Grabovica by car,
8 but there is a kind of barrier or checkpoint in front of the entrance
9 where there was soldiers. We stopped there and Crni, one of our fighters,
10 said he had found two children, two brothers.
11 Q. This checkpoint which was in front of the entrance and where there
12 were soldiers, was that a checkpoint that was there on the previous
13 occasions you've been between Grabovica and Jablanica?
14 A. Yes. It was a barrier to prevent men from getting in because
15 there was only this one entrance.
16 Q. How many soldiers were on this checkpoint?
17 A. There was some in the house and some at the barrier. There were
18 five or six staying there.
19 Q. Are you saying there was a house near the checkpoint and the
20 soldiers were staying in that house adjacent to the checkpoint?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Are you able to say from which unit those soldiers were?
23 A. It was near Adnan Solakovic's. There were two or three who were
24 to be in charge of the action and a few of ours. And Cedo's Wolves and
25 the Handzar Division were there before you come to the checkpoint and the
1 black wolves.
2 Q. You said a moment ago that Crni said he had found two children,
3 two brothers. What did he tell you?
4 A. He said, I found these two brothers in the woods, and they say
5 that their grandfather, their grandmother, their mother, their sister have
6 all been killed and they managed to escape.
7 Q. What was your response and Ramiz Delalic's response to being told
9 A. I know Ramiz well. His response was fierce. He immediately
10 started an investigation to find out what had happened and who had killed
11 those people. He asked them if they would be able to recognise if any of
12 the men were the perpetrators, whether they would recognise them.
13 Q. Crni told you he found two children, two brothers, did you and
14 Ramiz see the two brothers or speak to the two brothers?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where did you find them?
17 A. Near the checkpoint.
18 Q. And was it then that Ramiz Delalic asked the boys if they would be
19 able to recognise the perpetrators?
20 A. Yes. He asked them that then. He was very angry. We didn't know
21 what had actually happened until he questioned them about it.
22 Q. And what did you and Ramiz Delalic do with these children after
23 speaking with them?
24 A. Ramiz lined up the men; he was very angry at the men. He yelled
25 at them and they were all saying, We don't know anything about it, we
1 don't know anything about it. And he was saying, How come you don't know
2 anything about it. He lined up the unit. One of the boys said that he
3 remembered the face of the man who killed his family and that he would
4 recognise him at once.
5 Q. Where was it he lined up the men?
6 A. They lined them up near the house where I was staying. There is a
7 meadow there and he lined them all up there for them to see.
8 Q. Is that the point where you put a 1 on the two photographs MFI 169
9 and 170 earlier where the trucks stopped?
10 A. Where he lined up the men, it's where number 2 is. On the
11 right-hand side of that house there is a meadow.
12 Q. Approximately how many men did he line up and how did he line
14 A. He lined them up in a single line, but there are only five or six
15 men there at the time because some had gone to reconnoitre because there
16 was an action being prepared so that some men were not there.
17 Q. Do you know a man called Enes Sakrak?
18 A. I can't recall the name now. I can't recall the face -- or
19 rather, I heard about the name later on but I can't remember what he
20 looked like.
21 Q. Do you know whether he was one of the men in the line-up?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. What about the a man called Mustafa Hota, did you know him at the
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was he in the line-up?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Should he have been?
4 A. They should all have been there except for the ones who went to do
6 Q. Do you know where -- was Mustafa Hota on reconnaissance duties
7 when the line-up was being held?
8 A. I don't know. All I know is that he wasn't there at the time.
9 Q. What did you hear about where he was?
10 A. That he had gone up into the woods somewhere.
11 Q. What did you hear about the reason why he'd gone up into the woods
13 A. I don't know. Nobody said anything about it. Everybody pretended
14 to be surprised when they heard about these events. They all pretended
15 they didn't know anything about them.
16 Q. Were the boys there when Ramiz Delalic lined up the men in front
17 of the house?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How old were the boys?
20 A. As far as I can recall, one of them said he was 11 and the other
21 one 9.
22 Q. Were they able to or did they indicate that they recognised any of
23 the men in the line-up as the perpetrators?
24 A. They didn't recognise anyone at that time. This boy said he
25 remembered the man well and he would have recognised him, and he said that
1 he was not any of the men in the line-up.
2 Q. What did you and Ramiz Delalic do with the children after the
4 A. We took them to Zuka's headquarters in Jablanica.
5 Q. Where did Ramiz Delalic go and where did you go and what did you
6 do with the children when you got there?
7 A. I stayed in front of the headquarters and Ramiz Delalic went in.
8 He went into Zuka's headquarters.
9 Q. And the children?
10 A. They stayed in front with me.
11 Q. Where did Ramiz Delalic go to?
12 A. He went to Zuka's office to see about these events.
13 Q. Were you able to hear what he was saying, if anything, when he
14 went to Zuka's office?
15 A. He went there and he was very angry because he'd heard about the
16 murders. He didn't know the number of murders that had taken place. He
17 went into the coffee bar and then the room behind, and from there I
18 remember him saying -- he said the two of them should be removed, the
19 voice said, and then Ramiz responded very angrily to what had been said.
20 Q. I'll just take -- go back to your last answer. I'll take it bit
21 by bit. You said you heard a voice saying the two of them should be
22 removed. Who were the two that that person was referring to?
23 A. As far as I was able to understand, the two children who had
24 survived were to be removed.
25 Q. Can you just go back - and we all appreciate it's been a long
1 time - but try and use direct speech as best as you can about what Ramiz
2 said and what the other person or persons said.
3 A. That they should be removed, liquidated, killed, in other words,
4 so that there would be no witnesses; that's how I understood it. And
5 Ramiz responded to this and he said, No way. Nobody should kill those
6 children; it's not the children's fault.
7 Q. What did Ramiz do then?
8 A. And they continued discussing those children. There was arguing
9 about it. And Ramiz said, Make sure nothing happens to those children.
10 Q. Who was in the room with Ramiz when he was talking about the
12 A. Ramiz, Zuka, Nihko were there in the vicinity, and I think Sefer
13 Halilovic was there as well because his driver was outside with the jeep.
14 His nickname was Mesar; he was his driver.
15 Q. Did you know Sefer Halilovic's voice in September 1993?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you remember seeing Sefer Halilovic on the base in Zuka's
18 headquarters when that conversation in Zuka's office was occurring?
19 A. I concluded he was there because I saw his driver. If his driver
20 was outside with his jeep, then I concluded he was inside.
21 Q. Why was that? What led you to conclude the fact that his driver
22 was there, I mean that Mr. Halilovic might have been there?
23 A. That was the custom in our parts; where the driver was, there his
24 superior was or if he had an escort, he would be around.
25 MR. RE: What time do Your Honours intend to take the break?
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, it depends on you, actually. Can you finish
2 your direct in five minutes?
3 MR. RE: Not in five; maybe about 10 to 15. I don't think I can
4 do it in five.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, that will be too long because we have been
6 sitting here for one hour and 25 minutes. Maybe you could take a break
7 right now.
8 So we'll resume at 25 minutes to 1.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Re, please continue.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. Before the break, Mr. Arnautovic, you were telling the Trial
14 Chamber about Ramiz Delalic meeting at Zuka's base and speaking to Zuka
15 Nihko, and you think Mr. Halilovic was there at the time. Do you remember
16 whether Commander Karic, the one who made the comment about throwing
17 civilians in the river, was in the room with Ramiz when he was talking
18 about the children?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Is that no, you don't remember; or no, he wasn't there?
21 A. He wasn't there because after saying, Throw into the Neretva
22 anybody who makes any noises, he didn't -- he wasn't around anymore.
23 Q. Did you return to Grabovica after you'd taken the children to
24 Zuka's base? That was on the 10th of September.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was the checkpoint still there when you returned?
2 A. There was the checkpoint from before, but an additional checkpoint
3 had been added to it.
4 Q. Where was the additional checkpoint? Was it before coming from
5 the road from Jablanica or after coming on the road from Jablanica?
6 A. If you take the road from Jablanica towards Grabovica, there's a
7 bridge you had to cross and that's where the additional checkpoint was
9 Q. Were there soldiers at this additional checkpoint?
10 A. Yes. Zuka's men were at the checkpoint.
11 Q. Approximately how many?
12 A. Since some of his units were accommodated close by, there were
13 four or five of his men.
14 Q. What was the purpose of that additional -- that extra checkpoint?
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, excuse me --
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Just stop one moment, please. Your Honour, again
18 to ask the witness to speculate as to the purpose of is it is not much
19 use. If he was told something by those people at the checkpoint --
20 MR. RE: I'll rephrase it.
21 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the Prosecution just asked a question:
22 What was the purpose of this additional checkpoint? It -- the witness
23 might know something about the purpose or may not. We haven't come to the
24 question whether this witness will speculate something or not.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: It's no use objecting after the -- after it's
1 happened, Your Honour, and it may create an unfairness to the witness, not
2 a deliberate one, I'm sure. It just has the position of asking the
3 witness to answer something and Your Honours heard the objection. I
4 understand what Your Honour says about it.
5 JUDGE LIU: Since Mr. Re has agreed to put it in another way, so
6 we'll go along with that.
7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.
8 MR. RE:
9 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, what, if anything, did you find out was the
10 purpose of this additional checkpoint?
11 A. I was surprised to see that checkpoint. I couldn't understand
12 what it was all about, but when I approached I heard what the soldiers
13 were saying. The purpose of the checkpoint is to close off all access to
14 Grabovica, to prevent anyone from going in or out because there had been
15 an attempt by some journalist, some press team from the international
16 community or -- protected by the UNPROFOR to penetrate. And then Bakic
17 Munir, from Mostar had also tried to come in, the minister of police, but
18 that was later.
19 Q. Did you hear whether or not the minister for police had been able
20 to get access to Grabovica? You said he tried to get in. Do you know
21 whether -- did you hear whether he was able to get in?
22 A. No. Nobody entered because preparations for an operation were
23 underway at the moment and nobody was able to enter Grabovica, apart from
24 individual soldiers involved in the preparations had the authority to come
25 in and out.
1 Q. You've referred throughout your testimony to preparations for
2 combat. Did you and your -- members of your unit in fact go into combat,
3 either on the 10th or another day?
4 A. Yes. After that we did go into combat. We were supposed to walk
5 a long way to Dreznica, and from Dreznica to that hill which we were
6 supposed to attack.
7 Q. Was that on the 10th of September?
8 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, again I object to that.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
10 MR. MORRISSEY: Timing is important and somewhat more important in
11 this. To put the 10th to him like that was not acceptable and I object to
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Re, maybe you can ask which date is that
14 instead of identifying the 10th of September to this witness.
15 MR. RE: The previous question I said was it either the 10th or
16 another day and his answer was yes. I was attempting to clarify by saying
17 was that the 10th. I was not attempting to lead, but I can certainly
18 rephrase it.
19 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, on what day did you go into combat in relation to
20 what you've just described?
21 A. It's easier for me to place it in time because I was there. We
22 set out that evening because we had a long walk ahead of us upstream along
23 the Neretva River to Dreznica. So we walked all night.
24 Q. Was that the same day - just to clarify this - that you saw the
25 two boys in Grabovica and took them to Zuka's base?
1 A. The operation was about to start and we left in the evening that
3 Q. Where did you stay that night?
4 A. The fighting men left that night; I stayed behind. And they went
5 on foot to Dreznica and I went to Jablanica.
6 Q. Are you saying you stayed in Jablanica that night, that's the
7 night of the 10th?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What about the night of the 11th, where did you stay then?
10 A. On the 11th I was in Grabovica because there was some more
11 fighting men whom I needed to take care of in case they needed support or
12 transportation, et cetera, or logistics.
13 Q. Where did you stay on the night of the 11th of September?
14 A. I was in that house where I spent nights before.
15 Q. When did you return --
16 A. The one that I marked with a 2.
17 Q. I apologise. When did you return to Grab -- sorry, to Sarajevo?
18 A. We returned to Sarajevo on the night of the 12th. I know that
19 because the 13th is my birthday. So we went to Sarajevo in the night
20 between the 12th and 13th and we arrived sometime in the evening, early
22 Q. You were in Grabovica on the 11th. About what time did you get to
23 Grabovica on the 11th?
24 A. I cannot remember the exact time.
25 Q. You gave evidence earlier of there being Croat villages or
1 civilians in Grabovica when you arrived on the 8th of September. Were
2 there any Croat villagers remaining or residents remaining in Grabovica
3 when you returned on the 11th of September?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was anything said to you about what -- about where the Croat
6 villagers had gone or what had happened to them?
7 A. No. There was no discussion about that nor did I see any dead or
8 wounded. It's just as if everyone had vanished.
9 Q. Apart from what the boys, the two boys, had said about members of
10 their family being killed, were you told about any other Croats from that
11 village being killed in that same sort of period?
12 A. When we found out that those people had been killed and when some
13 inquiries had already been made, it looked as if they had all disappeared
15 Q. Was the checkpoint, the additional checkpoint you referred to
16 earlier which Zuka's men were at, was that there when you returned on
17 the 11th and left on the 12th in Grabovica?
18 A. As we were leaving we left the checkpoint behind us.
19 Q. What I'm asking you is whether that additional checkpoint, the one
20 you told us about earlier, the one which Zuka's men were guarding, was
21 that still there on the 12th when you left for Sarajevo?
22 A. Yes, yes. It was still standing as we left. The men at the
23 checkpoint were still there.
24 Q. Did any military police accompany you and the other soldiers in
25 the trucks from Sarajevo on the 7th and 8th of September?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were there any military police or military security service
3 personnel in Grabovica when you were there?
4 A. We didn't see any military police anywhere.
5 Q. Were your -- were the men in your units, the ones lined up by
6 Mr. Karavelic and sent to Sarajevo, were you ever given -- were you given
7 any specific directions or instructions in relation to the treatment of
8 civilians in that particular operation in which you were to take part?
9 A. No mention was made before us of any civilians that we were
10 supposed to transfer or anything.
11 Q. Were you given any instruction or training as to the appropriate
12 treatment by soldiers of civilians, what you could and couldn't do, before
13 you went to Grabovica?
14 A. I don't know. We had no training of that kind at all. Men who
15 served before us we thought had more experience and would tell us. That's
16 about it.
17 Q. Were you ever given -- when I say "you," your unit, the
18 9th Motorised Brigade, were you and other soldiers given any training in
19 relation to the Geneva Convention or the treatment of civilians at any
20 time before you went to Grabovica in September 1993?
21 A. No, we did not. But we talked amongst ourselves and we knew that
22 civilians were not supposed to be touched and that property was not
23 supposed to be damaged. That's what we knew from talking to each other,
24 but there was no one from the corps telling us anything specific.
25 Q. Were you or to your knowledge other soldiers who were in Grabovica
1 on the 8th, 9th, and 10th of September ever questioned or interrogated in
2 September 1993 as to what may have happened or the deaths of the civilians
3 in Grabovica in that period?
4 A. No, nobody was interrogated. I told you there was stories going
5 around to the effect that we were moving forward, advancing when the order
6 came to stop the entire operation. But those were informal conversations;
7 nobody interrogated us officially.
8 Q. Were you ever interrogated yourself about the deaths of civilians
9 in Grabovica in September 1993? Were you ever asked what had happened at
10 any time?
11 A. When we were arrested on the 26th of October, that's when the
12 military security asked us some questions about this and that. Do you
13 know anything about anybody killing someone? Things like that.
14 Q. What do you know about crimes that may have been committed in the
15 Sarajevo area before September 1993 by members of the 9th Motorised
17 A. I don't know. I didn't see any killings with my own eyes, but
18 while Juka Prazina was around I heard stories that in Paska Polje [phoen]
19 Serb civilians were being killed, that certain things did occur.
20 Q. You said certain things did occur. Did you hear of crimes
21 committed by the 9th Motorised Brigade that didn't involve killings in the
22 Sarajevo area before September 1993?
23 A. As for our units I know very well that there were no crimes
24 committed, because our commander, Ramiz Delalic, was very strict on the
25 rules, including a ban on alcohol and everything else concerning his
2 Q. A little earlier you told the Trial Chamber that Sefer Halilovic's
3 driver was at Zuka's base on the 10th of September, 1993.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What did you know at the time about who Sefer Halilovic was?
6 A. Well, I wasn't so very well-versed in ranks. I know that
7 commander of the army was very high up and that corps commander was just a
8 little lower.
9 Q. Were you aware of the name of the operation you were to
10 participate in in the liberation of Mostar? What was its name?
11 A. I knew we were heading for Mostar, and later on I learned the name
12 of the operation was Neretva 93 because our crossing point was Mostar.
13 Q. What did you know about what the overall commander of this
14 operation was? Were you told who it was; and if so, whose name was it?
15 A. Well, I knew that the main control of this entire Neretva 93
16 Operation was in the hands of Halilovic. But we came directly under the
17 control of Zulfikar Alispago.
18 Q. Who told you the main control was of the entire operation was in
19 the hands of Halilovic?
20 A. Well, we had those friends and that corps, of whose involvement I
21 was not aware in Herzegovina, and later on when the operation was stopped
22 I heard that all sorts of things had been going on, even that Izetbegovic
23 himself issued the order to discontinue the operation and go back.
24 Q. Did you hear that Halilovic was the main controller of the
25 operation before you went to Grabovica or afterwards?
1 A. I knew from before, since it was already being said that the
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina army was making a successful advance and that
3 strikes were successfully being carried out on that side. It was in the
4 papers and I knew it.
5 Q. Before you went to Grabovica in September 1993, had you seen or
6 did you know what Sefer Halilovic looked like?
7 A. Yes. I knew what he looked like.
8 Q. Had you seen him before in person?
9 A. I saw him in Sarajevo.
10 Q. Do you remember whether he was one of the people who was with
11 Mr. Karic when Mr. Karic made his remark about throwing civilians into the
13 A. All I know is that it was a group of five or six. Whether he was
14 in that group, I cannot be sure because I was really paying attention to
15 Vehbija Karic. And I know that people from the east Herzegovina Corps
16 were around there.
17 Q. Earlier you told us that the meeting of which Mr. Karic made his
18 remark on the first day you got there, which was the 8th of September, is
19 that -- did you make any diary notes or anything of the date at the time?
20 A. As I was a logistics man, I kept records of the cigarettes,
21 weapons, packed lunches, and so on. I have the last names of all the men.
22 I kept records of what I had given to whom, but when I was arrested in
23 1993 all this was taken from me and destroyed. It was never shown
25 Q. Do you remember whether you made a diary note as to Mr. Karic
1 making his remark, the fact that he made that remark. Do you remember
2 whether you recorded that anywhere at the time?
3 A. I didn't write that down but I recall those words very well
4 because no normal man would say what he had said. I have to put it that
6 Q. You're giving evidence about this many years after the event. Are
7 you sure it was that day or could it have been on another day.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: If that's not cross-examination, I'm surprised.
10 It's clearly just an attempt to elicit a different answer from the one he
11 originally got. It's cross-examination; he's not allowed to do it, and I
13 JUDGE LIU: I believe the witness has already answered the
14 question in a very clear way.
15 MR. RE: That's the examination-in-chief.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
17 Any cross?
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:
20 Q. Thanks, Mr. Arnautovic. Mr. Arnautovic, can you give us a clear
21 assurance - so that the rest of your evidence is to be viewed in the right
22 light - that you didn't shoot any civilians yourself? Can you give us
23 that assurance?
24 A. Yes, I can.
25 Q. And you didn't stand by and watch any get shot?
1 A. I can prove that. I guarantee it.
2 Q. Yes. Well, I understand that. You understand why these questions
3 have to be asked, don't you?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Yes. Okay. But what you can say clearly is: You didn't kill
6 anyone and you weren't involved in any of the killings. Is that correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, I'm crackling here in the microphone. Just excuse
9 me a moment and we'll fix it up.
10 Now, not only that but you didn't participate in any cleaning up
11 of bodies or any concealing of the crime, did you?
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 Q. Okay. It's quite clear to you that at some stage somebody must
14 have done some clearing up. Is that correct?
15 A. Well, in my opinion somebody did do that, yes.
16 Q. And you made some efforts to ask about what had happened and who
17 had done that clearing up when you came back to Grabovica with Ramiz. Is
18 that correct?
19 A. I wasn't competent to do that. I was on ordinary logistics man,
20 just an unimportant soldier. It wasn't up to me to do that.
21 Q. I understand you're not in the military police or in military
22 security and you didn't have the competence to do it. But you were there
23 with there -- with Ramiz when he was asking questions. Isn't that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In fact, you came back with him to the village, yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. All right. And as far as you could see, when Ramiz first
4 found out about what had happened to the young boy's family, he seemed to
5 you, who know him pretty well, to be very upset. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And you saw him effectively spring straight into action and
8 try to find out what on earth had happened. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What was it that he did first of all when you first spoke to the
11 kids and found out the terrible story?
12 A. He lined up the men because the boys said they would recognise the
13 perpetrator, so he lined them all up.
14 Q. And can you say -- I know that the Prosecutor asked you a question
15 about this, but did he line them up in front of that white house which you
16 stayed in a day earlier or a night earlier?
17 A. It was to the right of the white house. He couldn't do it inside
18 because there were a hundred or so men.
19 Q. And a few bombs inside the house, yes? Some weapons --
20 A. Mattresses on the floor, not beds.
21 Q. Sorry. I might have understood you. You used that white house to
22 put your gear in the -- some of your equipment and things that you as a
23 logistics officer had in control. Did I misunderstand that?
24 A. Packed lunches, ammunition, cigarettes, and up to four men slept
1 Q. All right. I'll just get you to point out on a picture --
2 MR. MORRISSEY: And could the witness please be shown Prosecution
3 Exhibit Number P7, and it's the photograph of the white house.
4 Your Honours, I'm sorry, we don't have a picture as yet. Now I
5 have it.
6 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, can I just ask: Do you have that picture of the
7 white house in front of you there?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Very well. Is it possible to see on that picture where the
10 line-up took place?
11 A. Yes. On the right-hand side where there is a branch, there is a
12 meadow there, on the right-hand side looking at it from this vantage
14 Q. Yes, I understand. All right. Would you mind just marking with a
15 blue pen where the line-up took place, please.
16 A. There are some bushes here, but this is the meadow.
17 Q. You'll just have to excuse us again, Mr. Arnautovic, while this
18 picture gets brought up in a way that we can see. Okay. Excellent.
19 Yes. Thank you very much for that.
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, could I offer that for tender?
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 171.
23 JUDGE LIU: I don't think there's any objections, so it's admitted
24 into the evidence.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Arnautovic, you'll just have to forgive the occasional
2 lapse off into technology here, but now I can ask you the questions.
3 Doing the best you can, can you say what it was that Ramiz asked of these
4 people who were lined up? What sort of questions did he ask them?
5 A. As far as I can recall he asked them what had happened, if anybody
6 had seen or heard anything. And everybody said they hasn't seen anything,
7 heard anything, nobody knew anything. They just said they heard shooting
8 in the evening.
9 Q. And what -- did he press them with further questions? Did he say,
10 How can this be right? You're all living in these houses, you're all 20
11 metres away from each other, how can you not possibly have seen and heard
12 what went on? Is that the sort of question he asked? You understand
13 those are my words.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak more in the
15 microphone. Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They all said that nobody had heard
17 or seen anything except for some shooting in the evening.
18 MR. MORRISSEY:
19 Q. Okay. Can you remember which individual soldiers it was who said,
20 We heard shooting but we don't know anything else?
21 A. Elvedin Husic, as he was there that night, said that he had heard
22 shooting, he had heard shots. And Hajric, the young man who was there but
23 was killed later said the same, and he can't testify because he's dead.
24 Q. That's okay. None of these soldiers at that time indicated to
25 Ramiz that they'd seen any dead bodies. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, that's correct. Nobody said anything or saw anything.
2 Q. And just to be clear about that, none of them that they'd seen the
3 dead body of a soldier in military uniform. Is that correct, too?
4 A. The body of a soldier? No, nobody.
5 Q. In fact, is today the first time you've heard anyone suggest that?
6 A. This is the first time I've heard anyone saying that a soldier had
7 been killed.
8 Q. Well, thanks for that. And it was quite obvious to you that Ramiz
9 was concerned to protect these two young kids?
10 A. He fought fiercely when we arrived in Jablanica. He said, Let
11 nobody touch a hair of their head when we leave. I remember that very
13 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, there's a lot of things that are being said about
14 Ramiz Delalic, but you actually know him. Could you tell us a bit about
15 him and what sort of personality he is.
16 A. I can say that you couldn't find a better man anywhere. Everybody
17 knows he's a good man. He was good to the men as well. He did not permit
18 any alcohol, he did not permit anyone to go into battle drunk. If
19 somebody was afraid to go into battle, he let them stay behind. He was
20 very correct. Some individuals from the supreme command hated him, but
21 that's a different matter.
22 Q. Yes. Well, I'll come to the enemies that he had later on, but he
23 had a pretty strong attitude about drugs, too, didn't he? I mean illegal
24 drugs, not --
25 A. No drugs were ever used. He was always against drugs.
1 Q. Yes. And so far as you could see, the 9th Brigade units that were
2 commanded by Ramiz Delalic were probably better behaved than a lot of the
3 other units in Sarajevo. Is that correct?
4 A. When men are on leave, nobody can supervise them, but when they
5 are in the headquarters, then of course you can supervise them. You can't
6 really control what they do when they're out on the town.
7 Q. Yes. And as far as you could see, Ramiz Delalic kept discipline
8 pretty tight in his units. Is that true?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. Okay. Now, I have to ask you about some of the things -- you
11 recall the Prosecutor here asked you some questions about criminality or
12 crimes that may have been committed by the members of the 9th Brigade. Do
13 you remember being asked those questions by the Prosecutor?
14 A. Today?
15 Q. Yes. Today, ten minutes ago.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Well, I just want to clarify some of those things, if you don't
18 mind. First of all, the 9th Brigade had to guard an important part of the
19 front line in Sarajevo. Is that true?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And at that time the enemy across the front line was the Serb --
22 the republic -- the forces of the Republika Srpska. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Without going into the whole history of the siege of Sarajevo and
25 everything that happened, the fact is that you and soldiers that you knew
1 were very much afraid that if Sarajevo fell it would be a great
2 catastrophe for the Bosniak people, possibly even the Croat people that
3 lived there as well. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Because you had seen Vukovar on the television, hadn't you, and
6 what happened there?
7 A. Yes. But Sarajevo would have been ten times worse had they
8 entered it.
9 Q. So you had to fight hard?
10 A. Yes. Because we know that had they entered Sarajevo there would
11 have been an unprecedented massacre there.
12 Q. In terms of armaments, at the time when you were fighting in
13 Sarajevo with the 9th Brigade, was there an arms blockade imposed on the
14 Bosnian army preventing it from getting arms from overseas?
15 A. I know we couldn't get any weapons.
16 Q. And in short, did the units of the 9th Brigade have to raise funds
17 for running a cafe called the Rapsodija cafe?
18 A. It was the brigade coffee bar, and the money that was made was
19 given to the families of fighters who have been killed; or if possible,
20 weapons were purchased so we could defend ourselves.
21 Q. That's what I'm getting at here, Mr. Arnautovic, the purchase of
22 weapons. Was it the case that sometimes citizens who had some money
23 would - for example, local businessmen - make a donation to the 9th Corps
24 in order to help -- sorry, to the 9th Brigade in order to help pay for
25 weapons and for the needs of the soldiers?
1 A. There was an association of independent businessmen, and they
2 collected donations among themselves. Then they gave us stoves so we
3 could keep warm and things like that.
4 Q. And when people from those businesses gave donations, whether in
5 cash or in goods, was it the practice of the 9th Brigade to give them a
7 A. They gave us those things. They didn't bring money to the
8 brigade. They gave us stoves, food, uniforms, clothing. That was an
9 association of independent businessmen, people who had their own shops and
10 so on, and they brought money to a single collection point.
11 Q. Yes. Okay. And generally speaking -- well, I won't ask you
12 generally, I'll put the specific question to you. Was there a need to dig
13 trenches on the front line?
14 A. Well, the front line was established at the beginning and then it
15 moved. There were volunteers who dug trenches and the soldiers dug
16 trenches. And Ramiz Delalic dug trenches personally. I myself avoided
17 having to do that.
18 Q. Well, I was about to come to that. Again, you know that there's
19 been a lot said in the newspapers about trench-digging and about citizens
20 being taken to dig trenches, but I want to ask you about the truth of it
21 because you were there. Were most of the trenches there dug by the
23 A. Most of the trenches in our brigade, yes. If there were any
24 citizens they were volunteers and they were given the best conditions
25 because we had a line of men in front protecting them. And there were
1 people who didn't want to fight but who wanted to volunteer to dig
3 Q. Very well. And when people -- when civilians were digging
4 trenches as far as you know, were they taken to the front line to dig
5 trenches or were they at a position further back behind the lines?
6 A. Behind the front lines. Had you been able to go behind the lines,
7 then we would have gone there as soldiers.
8 Q. Yes. Okay. Well, I understand that.
9 Now, I just have a couple of other questions about the 9th Brigade
10 generally. You were in the zone of responsibility of the 1st Corps. Is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the brigade itself had about 4.500 men in it, maybe
14 approaching 5.000?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it had what was sometimes called an attack company or a storm
17 company. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And during your time there, the attack company was led by a man
20 called Malco Rovcanin. Correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And that attack company was one which was -- a unit that
23 was able to be deployed at different sections of the front line and was
24 sometimes used in emergencies to save situations at different sections of
25 the front line. Is that correct?
1 A. When there was heavy fighting or when a breakthrough was
2 necessary, they were the first to go and get killed.
3 Q. Yes. And in that capacity, for example, they went out to fight on
4 Igman at the end of July in 1993. Is that right?
5 A. Yes. When Igman fell, the corps sent us to Igman.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. To protect Tesjan -- or rather Tresnjevo Brdo.
8 Q. All right. Thanks very much. Okay. Now, at the time when this
9 operation took place, you heard about it by being present at the
10 9th Brigade command with about 120 other people. Is that correct?
11 A. I didn't understand your question.
12 Q. Sorry. Pardon me. Let me ask you another question. You
13 indicated earlier on that there was about 120 people gathered at the
14 command post the day when Commander Karavelic came to give you your
15 marching orders. Do you remember that day?
16 A. I remember there are about 120 men because they had to be
17 collected from all the various units of our brigade.
18 Q. Okay. Now, on that occasion was there present -- were all the
19 people there -- I take that back.
20 Do you know an individual named Nihad Vlahovljak?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was he there on that day?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did he bring along some troops that you didn't personally know on
25 that day?
1 A. I don't know. I know there are about 120 fighters there who set
2 out, but I didn't really look to see who was who.
3 Q. Okay. Well, I'm not criticising you for that, but I have to ask
4 you the questions. You were asked earlier on about Mr. Sakrak. Do you
5 recall whether you met Mr. Sakrak on that day or not?
6 A. I can't say I met him. I simply cannot remember that man.
7 Q. So is it safe to say this: That of those who set off on the
8 7th of September, there were some there that you just didn't know
10 A. Yes. Because they were from other units.
11 Q. It's the fact, isn't it, that -- I'm jumping forward a bit now,
12 but by the time you got down to -- I'll withdraw that question.
13 All right. Well, when you set off you had to walk to the tunnel.
14 Is that right?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And you went through the tunnel and found your way to Hrasnica?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And at Hrasnica you were taken on board some trucks. Is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And --
22 A. With a certain amount of difficulty.
23 Q. Yes. Well, let me just ask you about that certain amount of
24 difficulty. Was it your initial understanding that Fikret Pravljak was
25 supposed to provide some trucks on that occasion?
1 A. All I know is when we set out from the corps they said trucks
2 would be waiting for us so we could continue our trip. However, when we
3 arrived there were no trucks. And then we called Ramiz Delalic to get
4 there and see for himself because originally he wasn't supposed to go to
6 Q. And once he got there, did he come in the trucks with you?
7 A. When he arrived he had connections. He knew people among the
8 Prevljaks and he sorted it out. It seems that the trucks had been delayed
9 and they finally arrived. We boarded and went on.
10 Q. Did you know whether those trucks came from the 6th Corps
11 headquarters or not?
12 A. I don't remember that. I didn't pay attention. The main thing
13 for me was there was enough transportation for everyone.
14 Q. Okay. In the trucks -- all right.
15 I've got some questions for you now about when you arrived at
16 Zuka's base. That was about 8.00 in the morning. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Zuka personally came out and spoke to you -- to you, I mean
19 Mr. Arnautovic, didn't he?
20 A. All of us fighters were around when he addressed us; it was right
21 outside his headquarters.
22 Q. Now, who was his logistics man?
23 A. I can't recall his name. It was something like Spaga or something
24 like that. I saw him later. He was injured and he was disabled.
25 Q. Yes. But on this occasion he was -- it's a man called Spaga and
1 he's operating as the logistics man for Zuka?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. All right. Now, when you were at Jablanica it's the fact,
4 isn't it, that Zuka detailed an individual to take you to leave your
5 trucks in fact off to Grabovica. Is that correct?
6 A. Their men started from there. They were driving the trucks and
7 they did everything.
8 Q. Okay. So it was really Zuka's unit that got you down to
9 Grabovica. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And when you -- when the trucks pulled up in a Grabovica it was
12 Zuka's men who pointed you out, the houses and the areas that you were to
13 go to. Is that correct?
14 A. They brought us to the place I showed in the pictures and they
15 told us, This is where you are going to stay; this is Grabovica.
16 Q. Yes. And I take it when the soldiers got out of the buses, they
17 just behaved themselves properly and didn't shoot guns or behave in a
18 silly way. Is that correct? Is that right, sorry?
19 A. No, no. They were tired. They just sat around. Some of them
20 went off to the river to wash themselves.
21 Q. Okay. And just on that question of firing off guns, no such thing
22 happened. Is that right?
23 A. No. There was no shooting, there was no need to shoot because we
24 were very close to the place where combat was supposed to begin.
25 Q. I see. Okay. And in fact, prior to the time that you saw the two
1 poor young boys, you personally didn't see any silly behaviour, shooting
2 of guns, or other misbehaviour. Is that correct?
3 A. That day when we found the boys, there was no shooting. It was
4 not allowed to shoot.
5 Q. What about the day before when you were coming backwards and
6 forwards from Jablanica, did you notice any bad behaviour or shooting or
7 carrying generally on that day?
8 A. No. No, unless something happened while I was away that day in
9 Jablanica. But while I was around I didn't see any carrying on or any
11 Q. Okay. Okay. And I take it you yourself were quite upset when you
12 heard the story that the two young boys had to tell?
13 A. Well, of course I was upset. I have children myself, because my
14 own child suffered a terrible injury in an explosion and remained
15 disabled. I -- the feeling I had was a terrible one.
16 Q. Yes. Okay. So really, can you just explain to us perhaps that on
17 that day, the 9th - that's the day when you're going backwards and
18 forwards from Jablanica to Grabovica, and I think you indicated you did
19 that several times - could you say approximately how many times you went
20 backwards and forwards? Would it have been one or two? Would it have
21 been five or six? Would it have been about ten? What's the best estimate
22 that you can give?
23 A. Two or three times maybe.
24 Q. Okay. And did those trips involve you going to Jablanica,
25 collecting various types of goods, bringing them back, and distributing
1 them to the soldiers back in Grabovica?
2 A. I only went for supplies. I would go over there, have certain
3 supplies issued to me, take them back, that's it.
4 Q. I see. You said two or three times. Were they -- was that two or
5 three times in the morning, two or three times in the afternoon? We're
6 talking about the 9th of September here. Or was it once or twice in the
7 morning and once in the afternoon? How was it?
8 A. I went once in the morning -- in fact, more than once. But
9 usually I went more than once a day.
10 Q. Well, I'm just restricting it to the 9th at the moment as I
11 indicated in the previous question. Is the position this: That on
12 the 9th you drove into Jablanica on two occasions and collected goods and
13 brought them back to Grabovica. Is that right?
14 A. On the 9th I went there and back and I spent the night in
16 Q. That's okay. I haven't got to the night yet. I'm just sticking
17 with the morning of the 9th if that's okay. Now, you've indicated
18 already, I think, that you came and went twice in the morning. Now, just
19 tell me: When you came back from Jablanica on those occasions, what did
20 you do with the goods that you were bringing from Jablanica?
21 A. I would leave them at the house where I stayed.
22 Q. Did you have any help unloading those goods into the house that
23 you stayed in?
24 A. I had some fighting men around. I had that man Hajric, who later
25 got killed, he would give me a hand if I needed anything. And while I was
1 away, he would stand in there for me, issue things out, that sort of
3 Q. Did anyone else help you on that occasion -- on those occasions on
4 the morning of the 9th of September? Any other soldiers help you to
5 unload your jeep and put the things into the white house?
6 A. Well, it was usually the soldiers I mentioned because I was quite
7 capable of handling it myself. It was not that it concerned huge amounts
8 of equipment or anything.
9 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, you know it's important to come here and tell the
10 truth, don't you?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. And you haven't come here to conceal anything or to paint a false
13 picture, have you?
14 A. No need.
15 Q. No, I understand that. You know -- you knew what Sefer Halilovic
16 looked like in September of 1993 because you'd seen him before in
17 Sarajevo. Correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you'd seen him on television. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. As far as you knew, he was the commander of the Bosnian army.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And he had been for over a year. Correct?
25 A. Yes. Until Rasim Delic came.
1 Q. Yes. And in fact, more than that. You knew his driver. You knew
2 what his driver looked like. That's Mesar; correct?
3 A. I knew what his driver looked like back from Mount Igman where I
4 had seen him earlier.
5 Q. I understand all that. But the fact of the matter is this: That
6 you saw Mr. Karic make what you've described as a bad comment in front of
7 the soldiers on the 8th; correct? That's right, isn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you were standing less than 20 metres away from him. Right?
10 A. I don't know how many metres, but I was close by.
11 Q. Well, were you as close as you are now to the Judges in this
12 court. Correct?
13 A. Not that close, but okay.
14 Q. Okay. All right. Look, I'm putting this to you: Although you
15 expressed some doubt to the Prosecutor earlier on, the fact of the matter
16 is this: Sefer Halilovic just was not present when Karic made this
17 comment that you ascribed to him. Do you agree with that?
18 A. I cannot say that I saw him there. I can't say that I saw him or
19 that I remembered it clearly. All I know is that there was this Vehbija
20 Karic and people from the corps and that's all I can remember for sure.
21 Q. Let me help you then. The people from the corps, do you
22 remember -- I'll suggest some names to you and you tell me if that's
23 accurate. A man called Zicro Suljevic?
24 A. That rings a bell.
25 Q. Yes. Rifat Bilajac?
1 A. I heard about him.
2 Q. [Previous translations continues] ...
3 A. I don't know the man.
4 Q. A driver from Zuka's unit called Huso Alic?
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Re?
6 MR. RE: Can I clarify something. The question seems a little bit
7 unclear. Is my learned friend asking if he knows of these people or
8 whether those people were present when Mr. Karic made his remark. I think
9 there might be some confusion between the question and the answer.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, maybe.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: It will be clarified. Your Honour, I'll make that
13 JUDGE LIU: I have to remind you that our time for this morning is
14 up. Are you going to finish your -- this question or we'll start --
15 MR. MORRISSEY: I can complete this question so that we don't
16 labour tomorrow.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
18 MR. MORRISSEY:
19 Q. This is the final question for the day, Mr. Arnautovic.
20 And the question is this: Having heard those names Bilajac,
21 Suljevic, Jankovic, and Alic, do you recall as you sit there now in court
22 seeing those individuals?
23 A. I remember there were five or six men, and I remember Vehbija
24 Karic clearly, and I'm sure he was there. I am only saying what I'm
25 absolutely certain of. I am not willing to say anything else. I'm quite
1 intent on saying and speaking only about the things I saw, despite some
2 threats even that I received before coming here.
3 Q. Did you tell the police about these threats that you received?
4 A. I don't need to talk to the police. I'm only afraid of God. And
5 the people who stoop to threatening witnesses, it's their problem. There
6 were telephone calls I received and I was warned of certain things in
7 other ways.
8 Q. Did you tell the Prosecutors about these telephone calls?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Which one did you tell of the people sitting over there?
11 A. First of all, when I got that call, the first call in Sarajevo I
12 informed the people who were right there.
13 Q. [Previous translation continues]... which Prosecutor did you tell
14 about this, please, answer the question?
15 A. This gentleman here. I don't know his name, the one who's sitting
16 right here.
17 Q. Yes. Well, I'm -- I'd just like as my final point to note who the
18 witness is indicating there, and I think it would be common ground that
19 he's indicating Mr. Re.
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I'm sorry that we could not finish the
21 testimony for today and you have to stay here for another day. As I did
22 to other witnesses, that during your stay in The Hague you are still under
23 the oath, so do not talk to anybody and do not let anybody talk to you
24 about your testimony. Do you understand that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
3 MR. RE: Before you adjourn, just two very short matters I wish to
4 raise, firstly is in terms of planning the witnesses for this witness.
5 The next witness, of course, will be Mr. Mehanovic followed by Mr. Sakrak.
6 On present indications, could the Defence possibly indicate whether we
7 will get to Mr. Mehanovic tomorrow and Mr. Sakrak on Wednesday. That's
8 point one.
9 Point two is the fourth witness on the list this week, as
10 Mr. Morrissey alluded to before, we will be making an application for
11 protective measures which will be face distortion and a pseudonym, those
12 are the measures we will be asking for. Possibly we will make the
13 application tomorrow. I will inform my learned colleague this afternoon
14 of the basis of the application.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. And of course we need written
16 submissions of the list of the witnesses for this week.
17 So the hearing is adjourned for this morning, and we'll resume
18 tomorrow afternoon in the same courtroom.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of
21 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.