Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

1 Monday, 7 March 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

10 Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can hear you.

12 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to start?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: Good morning. Good morning, Your Honours.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examined by Mr. Weiner: [Continued]

20 Q. Good morning, Witness E.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. Now, when we left off on Friday, you were discussing arrival --

23 your arrival in Grabovica and how people were relaxed and fishing and

24 swimming and having a decent time. And then I asked you: Did Celo and

25 Caco's unit arrive shortly after your units arrived?

Page 2

1 MR. MORRISSEY: Once again, when he asked that, I objected.

2 Because, Your Honour, it's the blurring of those two units together which

3 has been objected to all along, and I maintain the objection.

4 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, he objected and you alloyed me to ask

5 the question first as a general question and then to get into specifics.


7 MR. WEINER: It's the same -- the exact question.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe you could ask some -- you know, even more

9 general question, in that what are the units there.

10 MR. WEINER: Okay.

11 JUDGE LIU: And later on step by step.

12 MR. WEINER: Yes. That's what I was planning to do.

13 Q. So what units arrived in Grabovica?

14 A. The 2nd Independent, Celo's people. Caco's men were not in

15 Grabovica. They were accommodated somewhere else. And a unit call Cedeni

16 Vukovi, Cedo's Wolves.

17 Q. Now, after Cedo's unit arrived, did the atmosphere in Grabovica

18 change?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And could you tell us how it changed, sir.

21 A. When they arrived at Grabovica, after a certain amount of time,

22 they started shooting, taking civilians away. They were under the

23 influence of drugs and alcohol.

24 Q. Sir, did the change occur immediately upon their arrival?

25 A. No, not immediately.

Page 3

1 Q. When did this change occur?

2 A. In the afternoon.

3 Q. And what could you hear beginning in the afternoon?

4 A. Shouting, shooting.

5 Q. And what -- what did you think when you heard this shouting and

6 shooting?

7 A. They were just having fun, a good time.

8 Q. Now, let's move on to the early evening. Do you know a --

9 another soldier with the nickname of Tajso?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. And could you tell us, Witness E, whether you and Tajso did

12 anything in the evening or in the early evening?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please tell the Court what you did.

15 A. We were in the house. And then we went to pick some tomatoes and

16 paprika, or peppers. We were stopped on the street, on the road by one of

17 Celo's soldiers. He asked us where we were going. We told him that we

18 were going to go and pick some tomatoes and peppers.

19 Next to the house where he stopped us, in that house were

20 soldiers and women. He asked us if we wanted to join them, and we

21 refused.

22 Q. Now, you said "next to the house" are --

23 A. Yes, next to the house, the house where he stopped us.

24 Q. Okay. Now, could you tell us, what was -- first tell us: What

25 were the ages of the women that were in that house?

Page 4

1 A. They were older women, in their 50s.

2 Q. And what were they doing, the women?

3 A. They were crying. They were completely distraught.

4 Q. And how were they dressed?

5 A. I remember one woman, who was wearing a yellow sweater. She had

6 blond hair.

7 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, can we go into private session?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

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11 Page 5 redacted. Private session.















Page 6

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 MR. WEINER: Are we in open session now?


7 MR. WEINER: Oh, thank you.

8 Q. What did you do after that, sir?

9 A. We picked the tomatoes and the peppers and returned to the house.

10 Q. Do you know any soldiers named Hodza or Ferid?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you or Tajso visit them that evening?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And when did you visit in relation to the incident that you had

15 seen with the women?

16 A. Immediately after seeing that.

17 Q. And was there any conversation at that house with those soldiers?

18 A. We said what we saw.

19 Q. And how did you feel at that time?

20 A. Terrible.

21 Q. Did you stay very long?

22 A. Not very long. We remained there for about a couple of hours.

23 Q. And then after you left Hodza and Ferid's house, where did you

24 go?

25 A. We went back to the house where we were sleeping.

Page 7

1 Q. At this point, without stating the names, if there was anyone

2 there, were there any other soldiers at your house?

3 A. Just the soldiers from our unit.

4 Q. And did you have any conversation with them when you returned?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And please tell the Court about that conversation.

7 A. Most of the soldiers had already heard and seen what had

8 happened, and we also told them what we saw.

9 Q. What did the other soldiers say that they had seen?

10 A. That they had seen soldiers taking away the local inhabitants.

11 Q. And how did the people in the house feel?

12 A. It wasn't easy for anyone, what was going on.

13 Q. And did the people in your house have any weapons? The soldiers,

14 I'm referring to.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Why didn't the soldiers in your house have any weapons?

17 A. The weapons had been handed in because there were no combat

18 activities there.

19 Q. Could you tell us whether you remained in the house during the

20 evening into the morning hours.

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And could you tell us what you heard or saw.

23 A. That night or ...?

24 Q. Yes, through the remainder of the night.

25 A. We didn't go outside. I went out just the next day.

Page 8

1 Q. Well, as you stayed in the house, could you hear anything during

2 the night?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What did you hear during the night?

5 A. Screaming and shooting, which was probably coming from the

6 victims and the soldiers.

7 Q. What was coming from the victims and the soldiers, sir?

8 A. Yells.

9 Q. And how did you and the other soldiers in the house feel when you

10 heard these yells and screaming?

11 A. We were confused. It wasn't easy for anyone, because we knew

12 what was going on.

13 Q. What was going on?

14 A. They were taking the inhabitants away, killing them.

15 Q. Now, did you have an opinion as to the sobriety of some of those

16 soldiers or some of -- let me step back, sir.

17 Whose soldiers were taking the inhabitants away and doing this?

18 A. Celo's soldiers.

19 Q. And did you have an opinion as to the sobriety of those soldiers?

20 A. They were not sober.

21 Q. And what did you base that on, sir?

22 A. On the behaviour and because it was known that there were a

23 couple of people in that unit who had a tendency to take alcohol and

24 drugs.

25 Q. Now, let's move to the next day. Beginning with the morning,

Page 9

1 what did you do?

2 A. I left the house. I walked along the road to see. The place

3 where I saw bodies in the Neretva River, next to the river, I saw a part

4 of a skull and brain.

5 Q. All right. Let's -- let's take it step by step. You got up in

6 the morning. Did you speak to anyone? Starting before you went outside

7 the house.

8 A. With the soldiers?

9 Q. Yes. Did you speak to anyone inside the house before you went

10 out?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what was the discussion?

13 A. We were talking about seeing what had happened. It was very

14 uncomfortable for us. We wanted to return to Sarajevo immediately.

15 Q. Now, when you went outside, did you speak with anyone, before you

16 took that walk?

17 A. I don't remember. We were all talking.

18 Q. Was there any talk outside with people from any other homes,

19 other than the one that you were staying in?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Was there any discussion as to what had occurred during the night

22 in relation to the civilians?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was that discussion?

25 A. I've said before, we couldn't believe that this had happened.

Page 10

1 Q. And what had happened that people couldn't -- that the other

2 soldiers couldn't believe?

3 A. The killings.

4 Q. Was there any discussion as to the extent of the killings?

5 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

6 Q. Okay. Was there any discussion as to where some of the killings

7 had occurred?

8 A. After we saw it, yes, we did talk about it, once we saw where the

9 bodies were.

10 Q. Okay. You went for a walk. Where did you go?

11 A. Towards the iron bridge.

12 Q. And as you walked towards the iron bridge, what did you see?

13 A. I saw two bodies in the Neretva.

14 Q. And could you describe first the age and sex of those bodies.

15 A. They were elderly people. I don't know exactly how old they

16 were. It was a man and a woman.

17 Q. And where in the Neretva River were they located?

18 A. Next to the river bank.

19 Q. What else did you see on that walk?

20 A. Along the road in the hedges, two more bodies.

21 Q. And could you tell us first the sex of those bodies, or the

22 gender of those bodies.

23 A. Men.

24 Q. And could you describe them as best as possible.

25 A. I only saw one wearing something like a grey suit, a grey jacket.

Page 11

1 That's what I recall.

2 Q. And could you tell us about the other person that you saw in the

3 bushes or hedges.

4 A. It was just lying there, the body, so I don't know.

5 Q. What else did you see?

6 A. Next to the iron bridge in a sort of hole, a little bit outside

7 of it.

8 Q. When you say "a hole," do you mean a ravine or do you mean a hole

9 in the ground or do you mean a ditch? What do you mean by "a hole"?

10 A. Like a canyon.

11 Q. Okay. What did you see in that canyon?

12 A. Two bodies, but I couldn't determine whether they were men or

13 women, because the -- it was quite deep, the canyon.

14 Q. Now, you said you had seen a piece of a skull or something like

15 that? Could you tell us about that.

16 A. That was on the road.

17 Q. Could you tell us where, if you recall.

18 A. Between our houses and the iron bridge.

19 Q. (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 A. You mean the soldier or ...?

23 Q. The woman.

24 A. She was on the road when we headed out towards the tunnel.

25 Q. And could you please describe how she appeared when you saw her.

Page 12

1 A. Well, she was lying on the road. She was doubled over.

2 Q. Was she alive?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you see any other bodies?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 [Trial Chamber and usher confer]


8 Q. These bodies that you had seen, were any of them wearing

9 uniforms, military uniforms?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, after you saw these dead bodies, what did you do?

12 A. I returned to the house, where we slept.

13 Q. Did you speak to any other soldiers before you had returned to

14 the house?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you speak to any soldiers when you returned to the house?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. Had they seen anything?

19 A. They did.

20 Q. What had they seen?

21 A. The same, the bodies. And each of them told the story as he had

22 experienced it.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]


25 Q. What was the mood of the soldiers at that point?

Page 13

1 A. Very poor. We simply wanted to leave the place.

2 Q. What happened next?

3 A. The commander lined us up because we had asked to leave, to be

4 deployed elsewhere. He said that we should stand guard in front of each

5 house where our soldiers were and to have a bullet ready in the barrel in

6 case we needed to fight with them.

7 Q. Could you tell us the name of the commander who lined you up.

8 A. Adnan Solakovic.

9 Q. And what was the ethnic make-up of the -- Adnan Solakovic's unit?

10 A. Mixed. There were Serbs and Croats as well.

11 Q. And how did the non-Muslims feel at that point?

12 A. They were afraid.

13 Q. Was anything done to allay their fears?

14 A. Well, what happened the previous night.

15 Q. No, to -- was anything done to allay -- to reduce their fear or

16 protect any -- the non-Muslim soldiers?

17 A. Yes. We changed their names. We didn't call them by their

18 actual names.

19 Q. Please explain that, sir.

20 A. For example, if somebody was called Zvonko, we would either call

21 him by a nickname or by a Muslim name.

22 Q. And why is that?

23 A. Because they feared for their lives and because they were of a

24 different ethnic background.

25 Q. Now, was there any discussion as to how to deal or how to -- or

Page 14

1 basically what you should deal -- how you should deal with Celo's

2 soldiers? Did Adnan Solakovic give you any orders or advice?

3 A. He told us not to mix with them, to avoid them, and as I have

4 already told you, to stand guard in front of our houses.

5 Q. Was there any discussion about Samir Pezo?

6 A. Yes. He told us that he had sent a dispatch to Sarajevo with a

7 report on what was going on.

8 Q. Did you and members of your unit stay very much longer in

9 Grabovica?

10 A. No.

11 Q. About how much longer did you stay?

12 A. Perhaps a day or two, and then we went to the tunnel towards

13 Dreznica, where we slept.

14 Q. Now, during that day or two, did you see any high-ranking

15 officers in Grabovica?

16 A. Yes, they came.

17 Q. When you say "they came," who came to Grabovica?

18 A. There was Vehbija Karic, Sefer Halilovic, Celo, Zuka.

19 Q. Let's take each one one at a time. Had you ever seen Sefer

20 Halilovic previously?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where had you seen him previously?

23 A. On television.

24 Q. Had you ever seen Vehbija Karic previously?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15

1 Q. Where? And where had you seen him?

2 A. The same, on television.

3 Q. Had you ever seen Zuka previously?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And where?

6 A. In Bjelasnica.

7 Q. And had you ever seen Celo previously?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where?

10 A. In Sarajevo.

11 Q. Was there any discussion among the soldiers when Halilovic,

12 Karic, Zuka, and Celo came to Grabovica?

13 A. Well, I don't remember.

14 Q. Did any other soldiers say anything about their visit?

15 MR. MORRISSEY: I object to that. Your Honours, the witness just

16 gave a clear answer to the last question, and this is a -- simply a second

17 try to get an answer, so I object.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. The witness answered that "I don't remember."


20 Q. Did any other soldiers recognise them?

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Once again, given the answer to the previous

22 question, that would simply be a third attempt at the same thing;

23 although, disguised in a different way. So I object to it, once again.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, this question is a little bit different with

25 the previous one.

Page 16

1 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I agree with you. It is phrased

2 differently. But the source of knowledge would appear -- this witness

3 can't look into people's minds. He can only have one source of knowledge,

4 and that is what he was told as to whether other people recognised or not.

5 And since he's already given his clear answer as to that source of

6 knowledge, I do keep the objection.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that, you know, the question is that

8 whether somebody told him that he knew those persons or not, the main, you

9 know, thrust of this question.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: That's what I took it to be as well, Your Honour.

11 And bearing in mind the -- the answer that he gave at I think about line

12 7, which has now gone off the page, as usual, that's why I've made the

13 objection that I have.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well --

15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, one question concerns a conversation as

16 to what they could have said, what they could have done. Another one

17 concerns as to whether or not anyone else recognised them. It's a

18 separate and distinguished question.

19 JUDGE LIU: But this is totally hearsay evidence; right?

20 MR. WEINER: Yes, as you know, hearsay is --

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So -- so you -- you had better make it more

22 clear to this witness.


24 Q. Did any soldiers state that they recognised any of those four

25 superior officers that came?

Page 17

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What did they say?

3 A. That they saw -- that they saw the command gathering together

4 after what we call roughhousing, after all the fuss.

5 Q. And what do you mean by "the fuss"? Or "roughhousing"?

6 A. Well, after the events.

7 Q. And just -- which events? Could you be more specific.

8 A. The killings that took place.

9 Q. Now, were you eventually sent to battle, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And where did you go?

12 A. We were in the tunnel, where we slept for two nights. After

13 that, we went to the Medved mount.

14 Q. How long were you at the Medved mount.

15 A. Three days.

16 Q. Could you tell us whether you returned to Grabovica after that.

17 A. After that, we returned, but I don't remember where we returned

18 to because the buses were waiting for us there to take us to Sarajevo.

19 Q. Well, did you stay any other nights in the village of Grabovica

20 after the three days of fighting on the mount?

21 A. I didn't, but some other people remained there, people from our

22 command.

23 MR. WEINER: Now can we move back into private session again,

24 Your Honour?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go back to the private session, please.

Page 18

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

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11 Page 19 redacted. Private session.















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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, now we are in the open session.

13 MR. WEINER: May the witness please be shown Exhibit P78. And

14 may we have private session just for this one paragraph, please. I'm

15 sorry.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go back to the private session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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11 Page 21 redacted. Private session.















Page 22

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE LIU: Are you going to use the next document?

6 MR. WEINER: P9, please.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we have it.


9 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to look at that photograph. Do you recognise

10 that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what is that, sir?

13 A. Part of the road and the iron bridge.

14 Q. Is that Grabovica, sir?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The areas where you saw those six dead bodies, can you see them,

17 those areas, in this photograph?

18 A. Yes, I can.

19 Q. Could you please show us or circle the area where you saw the two

20 bodies in the canyon.

21 A. Yes. [Marks]

22 Q. And the areas where you saw the two bodies on the water bank.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. And where did you see the bodies in the bushes?

25 A. I circled just now.

Page 23

1 Q. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. So the -- let's see, 1 is the canyon --

2 could you put a "1" over the canyon.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And put a "2" by the bodies in the bushes.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And the bodies that were in the water or at the water's edge,

7 where were those?

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And could you put a "3" over that.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. And is the place depicted where you saw the blond woman lying

12 dead?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. WEINER: Can we offer that, please.

16 JUDGE LIU: I guess there's no objections?

17 MR. MORRISSEY: No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: So it is admitted into the evidence.

19 MR. WEINER: Okay. Finally, can the witness be shown - and he

20 doesn't have to mark on write on this - Exhibit -- actually, it's 65 ter

21 number 105. In the B/C/S, it's pages 01057858 through 01057936. In the

22 English, 01057892 through 01057895.

23 That's not it. It's a diary. 01057892.

24 Q. Sir, do you recognise that page, or that document?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24

1 Q. What is that?

2 A. That's my diary.

3 MR. WEINER: Could the registrar please scroll to page 7892 in

4 the B/C/S.

5 Q. Now, sir, when did you maintain this diary?

6 A. During the war.

7 Q. And do you discuss the portion or do you -- do you discuss the

8 incident in Grabovica in the diary?

9 A. In part.

10 Q. And in that portion of the diary, do you mention Sefer Halilovic?

11 A. No, it doesn't.

12 Q. Do you mention Adnan Solakovic on those --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you mention him in those few pages in relation to Grabovica?

15 If you could look at that, please.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you mention Zuka?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Is everything that occurred in Grabovica contained in that diary?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And this diary, was it prepared for court proceedings?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What did you prepare it for? Why did you maintain it?

24 A. To have some notes so that with the help of the notes and my

25 recollection I could write a book.

Page 25

1 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'd like to tender that diary at this

2 time, or those three pages.

3 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, there's no objection, but I can indicate

5 that the whole diary should be tendered. But, however, I'm going to ask

6 some questions about that. I don't object to this being tendered now. If

7 my friend wants to tender it in a partial form, he can, but I indicate

8 I'll tender more.

9 MR. WEINER: That's fine. The whole diary.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes.

11 MR. WEINER: No problem.

12 JUDGE LIU: Is it necessary to -- to tender the whole diary?

13 MR. WEINER: If -- if it will make Defence happy, that's fine.

14 It's the three pages in -- two pages in relation to Grabovica is

15 sufficient, but if -- for -- if the Court would like the whole diary, we

16 have no objection to it.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Perhaps I can assist, Your Honour. I'm grateful

18 to my learned friend for taking the stance that he does. I must say the

19 happiness of the Defence isn't normally the touchstone of admissibility.

20 There's a number of pages that I want to -- want to refer to. It

21 may be after I finish that it's not necessary for the whole diary to be

22 tendered, but I don't want to be picking and choosing either, so perhaps

23 it -- if my friend is permitted to just tender what he wants to tender

24 now, and I indicate I'll be going to other parts of it in due course.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. I think the three pages mentioned by

Page 26

1 Prosecution are admitted into the evidence, and later on we might have

2 more parts to be admitted. But frankly speaking, I don't think it's

3 necessary to admit the whole diary because the diary is a personal record

4 which might involve some privacy of this witness. So we'll only admit the

5 relevant parts to this case. It is so decided.

6 Maybe and later on we could have a number for the whole diary.

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be 248.

9 MR. WEINER: And there was no number announced for the last

10 photograph, the second photograph, so 247?

11 THE REGISTRAR: The second photograph is 247.

12 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

13 Q. Finally, sir, has anyone in the military or in the police ever

14 questioned you concerning what you observed in Grabovica?

15 A. Our army or ...?

16 Q. Yes, your army.

17 A. No.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]


20 Q. When you returned to Sarajevo, did anyone in the police ever

21 question you concerning what you had seen in Grabovica?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And how long had you remained in Sarajevo after this incident?

24 A. We went to Bradina on the 30th of November.

25 Q. And up to the 30th of November, did you remain in Sarajevo?

Page 27

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then after Bradina, did you return to Sarajevo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And how long did you remain in Sarajevo?

5 A. I don't remember. I would have to look it up.

6 Q. But did you remain within the military?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. WEINER: No further questions.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, as for the last document, the diary, out of an

11 abundance of caution, it should be admitted under seal. Well --

12 THE REGISTRAR: It's noted, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, maybe we could a break, and we'll resume

14 at 20 minutes to 11.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.11 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.41 a.m.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE LIU: Your cross-examination.

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:

21 Q. Thank you very much, Witness E.

22 I just have a couple preliminary questions about the afternoon

23 when some soldiers from the 9th Brigade arrived. Is it your recollection

24 that those soldiers arrived at around about lunchtime and that the trouble

25 and shooting began at around evening-time?

Page 28

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Very well. And the trouble and shooting began on the same day

3 that they arrived but maybe five or so hours later; is that approximately

4 accurate?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In that five or so hours between their arrival and the start of

7 the trouble, you saw no bad behaviour and no aggression from those troops;

8 is that true?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Very well. Did you see any refugees in the village that

11 afternoon? By which I mean Muslim refugees from areas such as Stolac,

12 Capljina, and other places held by the HVO.

13 A. No.

14 Q. In your whole time there, did you meet any Muslim refugees

15 whatsoever?

16 A. No, we didn't meet any of them. They were accommodated on the

17 other side of the Neretva river bank.

18 Q. You didn't meet an older refugee called Zulfo who was staying in

19 the house with Adnan himself?

20 A. No, I don't remember.

21 Q. When you arrived in the the village, you didn't have any weapons

22 with -- on your person but those weapons were stored with the more senior

23 officers from your battalion; is that true?

24 A. The weapons were handed back, and I don't recall if any of the

25 civilians carried any weapons.

Page 29

1 Q. Yes. But when you reached Grabovica, you've indicated in

2 evidence here that you -- you and your friends were not armed. And I'm

3 just asking you about that. Where were your weapons? Were they in the

4 house with Adnan? Adnan Solakovic, I mean.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I see. And I'm going to ask you who was in which house in just a

7 moment, but I've got some general questions before I get to that point.

8 In the afternoon -- in the hours after the soldiers arrived, by

9 which I mean the 9th Brigade soldiers that you've referred to, you did not

10 personally see Ramiz Delalic at that time, did you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I'm sorry, do you agree with me that you didn't see him or are

13 you saying that you did see him?

14 A. That I didn't see him.

15 Q. Yes, I understand. Nor did you see any other senior officers

16 that afternoon; is that correct?

17 A. No, that's correct.

18 Q. Yes. All right. Once you first heard the -- the noise of -- of

19 gunshots, you indicated that at first you thought this was just

20 celebrating and effectively silly behaviour; is that true?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. By the time you walked out the door with Tajso to go and

23 get some peppers and tomatoes, what did you think was going on in the

24 village?

25 A. We weren't really thinking anything until that soldier stopped

Page 30

1 us, until he said, "Halt. Who's there?"

2 Q. Okay. Now, I just want you to -- would you just excuse me,

3 please, one moment, Witness E. I just need some advice about something.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown the recently

6 tendered Exhibit 245. This may be, Your Honours, in private session, so

7 this -- this exhibit.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

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7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.


10 Q. Witness E, just accept my apologies for this. It does happen

11 from time to time that there are delays with -- with the technology here,

12 but it's worthwhile in the long run.

13 Very well. Well, when you got to -- sorry. Perhaps I'll ask you

14 another topic: The house that you resided in, was that a double house?

15 In other words, was it two houses stuck together, or was it just a single

16 house?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. Very well. When you were residing there, were there any Croatian

19 civilians also residing there in -- in any part of that building?

20 A. No. Only the owner of the house came to her garden.

21 Q. What was her name?

22 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

23 Q. How old was she?

24 A. She was an elderly woman.

25 Q. Were you able to communicate with her?

Page 35

1 A. I didn't communicate with her, but other soldiers did.

2 Q. Witness E, in the time before the soldiers from the 9th Brigade

3 arrived, the villagers had treated you kindly and politely; isn't that

4 true?

5 A. That is correct. In the beginning, there was a little bit of

6 fear when the soldiers came, but later this disappeared because we

7 established contact with them. We exchanged cigarettes, coffee.

8 Q. Yes. And I was going to say to you that you and your soldiers

9 also made an effort to be friendly to the local people; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And quite frankly, this was entirely consistent with the aims of

12 the Bosnian war effort to create a multi-ethnic and tolerant Bosnia; is

13 that true?

14 A. Well, yes.

15 Q. Very well. And now I just want to turn to the photograph. Do

16 you have in front of you now a clean photograph with those yellow lines on

17 it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Very well. What I'll do is get you to mark the houses once again

20 that you did. So mark with a circle and a number "1" the house that you

21 were in.

22 A. [Marks]

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, shall we go back to the --

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Oh, yes.

25 JUDGE LIU: -- private session?

Page 36

1 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm grateful for that indication.

2 MR. WEINER: Yes.

3 JUDGE LIU: We'll go back to the private session, please.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

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Page 37











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25 [Open session]

Page 39

1 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness E.

4 So in that house there, the house number 4, during the time when

5 you were present there, is that where you understood Mr. Okovic to be

6 based?

7 A. He was there just that one day, and the following day he went to

8 conduct reconnaissance.

9 Q. Very well. And now, although I'm jumping forward in time a

10 little bit, I want to ask you: What time was it to -- to the best of your

11 knowledge that Okovic left the village of Grabovica to go on

12 reconnaissance the following day? Was it morning or afternoon?

13 A. The morning.

14 Q. Was it before or after you had walked up to the iron bridge and

15 observed the sad sights that you saw that Okovic left?

16 A. After.

17 Q. Very well. Now, I return to some questions about that house

18 number 4. In the house where -- that you've mentioned as house number 4,

19 who else was staying there?

20 A. Adnan Solakovic, Samir Pezo, and the limited circle around the

21 command.

22 Q. Apart from that particular house, you indicated that there -- to

23 your recollection there might have been a couple of other houses or

24 buildings just nearby but hidden in the trees; is that correct?

25 A. You can't see it on this picture, but as far as I remember, there

Page 40

1 was another house there.

2 Q. Yes. Having regard to the yellow arrows that you can see, in

3 particular yellow arrows 6, 7, and 8, would you just look -- take a moment

4 now and look at yellow arrows with the numbers 6, 7, and 8, and I'd ask

5 you whether any of those houses --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are any of those arrows pointing to the houses you're talking

8 about or is it just not possible to say?

9 A. It's not possible to say.

10 Q. Very well. Apart from the soldiers whose names you've already

11 mentioned, are there any other soldiers from your battalion whose presence

12 you can recall in the village, even if you can't recall exactly what house

13 they were in?

14 A. Yes, there were.

15 Q. Firstly, are you able to remember any of their names?

16 A. Spiro. I don't remember his last name. Hamo, whose last name I

17 can't remember either; Miroslav Macal; Mujo, whose last name I don't

18 remember.

19 Q. Very well. And -- okay. Thank you.

20 Very well. I now return to the narrative of -- of what happened.

21 When you walked out with your friend Tajso, you passed by the house that

22 you've indicated.

23 MR. MORRISSEY: And I'd ask that the witness be shown P4, which I

24 believe to be a photograph much tendered in this case.

25 Q. The photograph I'm seeking to show you now, Witness E, is a -- a

Page 41

1 more close-up photograph of the area where you were.

2 THE REGISTRAR: P4 is not a photograph.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry. Pardon me. My note is wrong.

4 Would Your Honours just excuse me, please, one moment.

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 MR. MORRISSEY: We'll make an inquiry and we'll come back to that

7 question.

8 Q. Very well. Okay. Well, when you got up to the -- up to the

9 house of Ferid, could you please indicate there whether there was any

10 communications equipment present in Ferid's house.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Where was the battalion's -- not the whole battalion but the part

13 of the battalion in Grabovica. Where was the communications equipment for

14 your unit?

15 A. At the command.

16 Q. How many soldiers did you see standing in a threatening way, one

17 of them undressed, near to these women?

18 A. Four.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we might want to go into private

21 session at this point.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. But now we have the picture there. Are you

23 going to come to that picture or ...?

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Yes, we are. We are. We have the -- we

25 have the picture. Sorry. I didn't realise we had it. Thank you. It's

Page 42

1 possible now that this would involve questions that touch on the private

2 session, so that --

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.

5 [Private session]

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4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.


7 Q. Okay. How many soldiers were there up at Ferid's house when you

8 got there?

9 A. How many soldiers there were in the house?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. I don't know. I don't remember. I remember Hodza and Ferid were

12 there. I think Enver Kapo was there too in the house.

13 Q. And approximately -- without remembering all the names,

14 approximately how many were there? Do you recall four or five or twelve

15 or twenty? Approximately what number?

16 A. There were three of them.

17 Q. Very well. When you came to leave that house -- sorry, perhaps

18 I'll -- one more question: You told those three what you had seen, I take

19 it. Is that correct?

20 A. After we came back to the house.

21 Q. Yes. Very well. So -- but my question was: Did you tell the

22 three people at Ferid's house about what you'd seen?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you then leave Ferid's house and go back to your own house?

25 A. Not right away. We were about two or three hours up there, and

Page 50

1 then we returned to our house.

2 Q. All right. And when you returned to your house, did you tell the

3 people at your house what you'd seen?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And at that stage, no restrictions had been placed on your

6 movement within the village; is that true?

7 A. As far as I can remember, no. But none of the people were moving

8 around anyway because of their own safety concerns. I think that the

9 majority knew what was already starting to happen.

10 Q. Yes. Well, I mean, I think it's fair to say you'd go a bit

11 further because you actually told them what you'd seen. Is that correct?

12 A. I think that it's quite normal to say what we saw.

13 Q. Certainly. And you had walked back in safe -- in safety from

14 Ferid's house back to your house; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did any of you soldiers who were in your house then set off and

17 walk down to the house where the commanders were, which you've marked as

18 house number 4?

19 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

20 Q. When did you first see one of those commanders? Was it that

21 night or was it the following morning?

22 A. The next morning.

23 Q. Why didn't one of you walk down and tell the commanders, "Look,

24 there's a possible rape going on in that house"?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 51

1 Q. The next morning when you walked out, you've indicated that you

2 went to go and look at -- you walked down as far as the iron bridge; is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Why did you go to the iron bridge?

6 A. Because there was already talk that you could see a part of a

7 skull, a brain, that there were bodies lying around. That's why I went.

8 Q. Very well. And on your way there, were you molested or stopped

9 or spoken to by any soldiers from Ramiz Delalic's unit?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you see any soldiers from Ramiz Delalic's unit?

12 A. No.

13 Q. On your way to that iron bridge, did you stop at house number 4,

14 where the commanders of the Solakovic units were, and speak to them about

15 what had happened?

16 A. There were already a couple of soldiers there and it was already

17 known. There was talk about it. There were those soldiers who were

18 asking that we return to Sarajevo immediately.

19 Q. What time was it that you woke -- approximately what time was it

20 that you woke up that morning? This being the morning after you saw the

21 women being oppressed in that house.

22 A. I don't remember when, but it was early in the morning.

23 Q. Yes. Was it light or just getting light?

24 A. It was already light.

25 Q. Very well. And when you set off to walk to the iron bridge, did

Page 52

1 you see any checkpoints that had been set up by any military units, either

2 by the 2nd Independent Battalion or by other soldiers that you didn't

3 know?

4 A. I think that there was a checkpoint, but I don't remember where.

5 Q. Well, I just want you to have a think about that. Was it a

6 checkpoint on the village road near to Adnan Solakovic's house, or was it

7 a checkpoint quite near to your house on the road up which you walked the

8 previous night to visit Ferid?

9 A. On the way to the command.

10 Q. And who was manning that checkpoint? Was it soldiers of the 2nd

11 Independent Battalion or soldiers from somewhere else?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. Going back to the previous night for a moment. When you all

14 gathered in the house after you'd seen what you'd seen and after you

15 returned from Ferid, did any of you go down to Adnan Solakovic's house and

16 collect some weapons to defend yourselves or the women with?

17 A. I don't know if anybody went to get weapons, but perhaps they

18 went to go to report what had happened.

19 Q. Well, I'm sorry to say that perhaps is not really the -- the

20 answer I'm looking for. Do you recall whether or not they did go to

21 report that or do you adhere to your earlier answers on that topic?

22 A. Probably yes, but I -- I don't remember.

23 Q. You were friends -- one thing about the 2nd Battalion was that it

24 was not a racially prejudiced unit and you had a lot of different ethnic

25 backgrounds in that unit; is that true?

Page 53

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I just want to ask him about a

3 couple of those friends, and it may be appropriate to go to the private

4 session for that.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go back to the private session, please.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

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9 (redacted)

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Page 54

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]


4 Q. Okay. Very well. Now, I was asking you some questions about

5 your movements the following day, and you indicated that you attended at

6 the end of the village and observed the sad sight of some killed people

7 there.

8 Could I just ask you about -- about what you were able to see at

9 that point. First of all, when you -- I want to ask you about the -- the

10 people that you saw in the ravine. Now --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- by "the ravine," do you mean a cutting in the hill which

13 passed underneath that iron bridge with water?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the persons that you saw on that occasion, were they in the

16 water?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that's the only time you saw those two people; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You also saw two people in bushes.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you've already described those. I won't make you describe

24 them again. But that's the only time you saw those two people; is that

25 correct?

Page 55

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And finally, you saw two persons in the water on the edge of the

3 river; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And once again, that's the only time you saw those two persons;

6 is that true?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Very well. And could I just ask you: Approximately what time of

9 the morning was it that you saw these people? I understand you can't be

10 precise, but be as precise as you can.

11 A. In the morning, until about 9.30 in the morning. 9.30.

12 Q. Very well. Now, I want to work from that time and ask you what

13 your movements were for the rest of that morning. After you saw that sad

14 sight, did you then walk back to your own house, or did you go somewhere

15 else?

16 A. I returned to the house.

17 Q. Very well. While you were returning to the house, did you notice

18 any refugees in the village?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you hear any screams in the village?

21 A. No, not in the morning.

22 Q. Did you hear screams and shooting throughout the previous night?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But by the time you came to the -- to the iron bridge, those --

25 those screams and that shooting had finished; is that correct?

Page 56

1 A. That is correct. There was no more shooting.

2 Q. Yes. And from your memory, at all times at which there was

3 shooting you were always inside your house; is that accurate?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Very well. And while you were walking back from the iron bridge,

6 did you notice any soldiers wearing masks?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you speak to any soldiers from the Handzar Division or see

9 any such soldiers?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you encounter any soldiers from the unit sometimes called

12 Cedo's Wolves?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you encounter a unit describing itself as the Tigrovi, the

15 Tigers?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And in short and in summary, you didn't encounter any soldiers on

18 that walk of yours except for soldiers from the 2nd Independent Battalion;

19 is that accurate?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Very well. Is it correct to say that by 10.00 or approximately

22 10.00 of that morning you were back at your house?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At approximately what time did you speak to any of the commanders

25 concerning your safety and the need for you to have weapons and so on?

Page 57

1 A. Immediately upon our return, we were ordered to line up, and

2 that's when Adnan ordered us to keep guard in front of the houses and to

3 give other names and nicknames to these people and not to mix with the

4 rest of the soldiers.

5 [Defence counsel confer]


7 Q. The line-up to which you've referred --

8 MR. MORRISSEY: I would ask that the witness be given the

9 opportunity to look at photograph P7. The photograph on the screen, I

10 believe, is P7. That's the photograph I want. I just want to be sure

11 that it is P7. But that is the photograph that I want, in any event. And

12 it's labeled 01494612.

13 Well, could the witness please be given the opportunity now to

14 mark with a pen where that line-up was, if in fact it took place on this

15 --

16 And, Your Honours, I don't know if this is a matter where we have

17 to go back to the private session or not. I don't believe we do, but ...

18 JUDGE LIU: Do we have to?

19 MR. WEINER: I don't see any reason at this point to.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm happy not to. That's good. I'm sorry. I

21 thought I misunderstood something I saw.

22 Q. Very well. Does that photograph show where the line-up took

23 place?

24 A. I don't see it.

25 Q. Did the line-up take place near to house number 4, the Solakovic

Page 58

1 house?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I understand.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well. I would ask, then, that the witness

5 be shown photograph P3, the panoramic photograph.

6 Q. Okay. Now, you have a panoramic photograph in front of you now.

7 I just want you to mark two things on this photograph. With a "1", I want

8 you to mark where the checkpoint was. Just draw a line or a -- or a mark

9 where the checkpoint was. And then with a "2", I'll get you to mark where

10 the line-up took place that -- that the commanders got you to do.

11 A. I don't remember where the command ramp was, but we lined up

12 there on the road. [Marks]

13 Q. Very well.

14 A. In front of the command.

15 Q. I understand. And approximately how many of you were there

16 lining up there?

17 A. We were all there. I don't remember the exact number of soldiers

18 there though.

19 Q. And was -- were arms issued to you at that stage?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I understand.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: I tender that -- I offer that document for

23 tender.

24 JUDGE LIU: I guess there's no objections.

25 MR. WEINER: No objection, Your Honour.

Page 59

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It's admitted into the evidence.

2 THE REGISTRAR: This document is 252, and the previous document,

3 before mentioned, is 251.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm grateful for that. Thank you.

5 Q. And after you were issued -- and am I right to -- to conclude

6 that that line-up took place at approximately 10.00 in the morning?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And during that time, you didn't hear any shooting?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And you didn't happen to see a certain Croatian villager aged in

11 his 20s fleeing from the village at that time, did you?

12 A. [No interpretation]

13 Q. Or any people fleeing from --

14 A. No.

15 Q. -- the village?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. Or any Bosniak Muslim refugees in the village at that time?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you.

20 And after that meeting, did you go back to your house?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did you play your part in standing guard outside that house?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And where did the Serbian and Croat members of your household go?

25 A. They were with us. They didn't go anywhere.

Page 60

1 Q. Do you recall whether an order came along for the Serbian or

2 Croatian members of your unit to go and stay in another house?

3 A. No, I don't remember that.

4 Q. And you didn't see any trucks coming to collect bodies that

5 afternoon?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. And you weren't aware of any persons burying bodies that

8 afternoon?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And you didn't see two small boys being escorted by members of

11 Ramiz Delalic's unit anywhere in the village?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And you didn't know -- you didn't see any livestock being moved

14 by soldiers?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were you approached by any members of any other unit with fresh

17 cow meat to be used or eaten?

18 A. Not to me, no.

19 Q. Did you see anyone bringing such meat to your household?

20 A. As far as I can recall, yes, there was meat, but I don't remember

21 who brought it.

22 Q. Where were you when it was brought?

23 A. I was in the house, but I don't know who brought it. I don't

24 remember.

25 Q. Well, in the discussions that took place in your household, what

Page 61

1 was the news about where that meat came from?

2 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

3 Q. Very well. Can you recall what time your commander, Adnan

4 Solakovic, arrived in the village on that day, if it was on that day?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. To your knowledge, was he there at any time the previous night,

7 or did he arrive on the morning after you saw the women being oppressed?

8 A. I don't know. I don't remember when he arrived.

9 Q. When did you first see him yourself?

10 A. The next day.

11 Q. Yes. And was that when your -- when -- did that take place when

12 your -- when you men were lined up outside the command house?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And was it after that that Mr. Okovic went off on reconnaissance?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who did he go with?

17 A. I don't know. This is, again, something that was up to the

18 command. Us soldiers didn't know who went with whom.

19 Q. Did you see him leave?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When you were inside that house of yours after the line-up and

22 after you got weapons, what sort of a view did you have of the village?

23 Did you have a good view from windows or from a balcony, or did you have a

24 very narrow view?

25 A. We had a view from our balcony on the River Neretva and the road.

Page 62

1 Q. Very well. Did you spend your time on the balcony, or given the

2 security situation, did you remain inside?

3 A. I don't remember where I was.

4 Q. Very well. All right. Now, you've given an account that

5 sometime later you saw some senior officers, and you named Vehbija Karic,

6 Sefer Halilovic, Zuka, and Celo.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, I just want to ask -- I want to ask you: Where were you

9 when you saw that -- saw those individuals?

10 A. When they passed by in the jeep, I was on the balcony. They went

11 off in the direction of the tunnel, towards Dreznica.

12 Q. Was it an open jeep -- an open-top jeep or was it a closed-top

13 jeep?

14 A. A jeep with a roof.

15 Q. Who was driving that jeep?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. What speed was the jeep going?

18 A. I don't know. It was going slowly.

19 Q. And did the people in the jeep stop and get out and talk to

20 people in your building, or did they just proceed going in the direction

21 they were going?

22 A. They were talking to somebody. I don't know with whom though.

23 And then they just passed by.

24 Q. Okay. For how long did you see that -- that jeep stopped still?

25 Was it a matter of just a few seconds?

Page 63

1 A. I don't know. I didn't see the jeep when it was standing. I

2 just saw it passing by.

3 Q. I understand. So you didn't see the people from the jeep talking

4 to other people. You just saw the jeep moving along. Is that an accurate

5 comment?

6 A. They came to the command, talked there, and then later each of us

7 soldiers who saw something there also -- probably some of the soldiers saw

8 something there.

9 Q. Well, I don't mean to mislead you or trick you in any way here,

10 Witness E. I just got to ask you about what you saw with your own eyes,

11 if that's okay.

12 Now, what you've indicated that what you saw with your own eyes

13 was seen from the house that you stayed in; is that correct?

14 A. From the terrace, yes.

15 Q. Yes, I understand. And you yourself did not see the jeep when it

16 was stopped outside the command post; is that accurate?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. But you came out to the terrace and you saw the jeep going

19 past; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. So at that time you got a chance to see the people

22 who were on your side of the car; is that an accurate way to put it? As

23 it drove past?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. And when you looked at those people there, you saw men in

Page 64

1 military uniforms; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. One of them with black hair; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But you yourself and -- and sorry, and perhaps I should ask you

6 this: How long did you have that moving vehicle in view? Did you have it

7 in view for five second or ten seconds or -- or a longer period than that?

8 Would you please tell the Tribunal.

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Very well. And you'd never seen Sefer Halilovic -- well, sorry,

11 I take that back. You had seen Halilovic on television before, hadn't

12 you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And --

15 A. And personally.

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. At the 1st Corps.

18 Q. Yes. But you concede this, don't you, Witness E: That it's

19 possible that although you thought you saw Sefer Halilovic, the person you

20 saw was actually someone else? Do you agree with that --

21 MR. WEINER: Objection, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

23 MR. WEINER: As to the form of the question. This one he's

24 asking the witness to speculate.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well --

Page 65

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not agree.

2 JUDGE LIU: -- I think this question is allowed.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Very well. But I don't want there to be

4 any -- any speculation. I'll rephrase it. I'll deal with it another way.

5 Q. You had a short time -- just tell me if you agree or disagree

6 with these propositions. You had a short time to see this man; is that

7 true?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. However, I recognised the person.

11 Q. No, I understand you say that, but just deal with the

12 propositions I'm putting to you. You had a short time to see him.

13 Secondly, he was in a moving vehicle; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And thirdly, you say you've recognised four people, don't you?

16 Zuka, Celo, Karic, and Halilovic; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were those -- where were those four sitting?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Well, let me ask you again: Do you concede the possibility that

21 you've made an honest mistake, that you saw someone that you think was

22 Halilovic but that it's possible that you personally have made a mistake?

23 A. I did not make a mistake.

24 Q. Where was Halilovic sitting?

25 A. In the car.

Page 66

1 Q. Thanks. Back or front?

2 A. Front.

3 Q. How many people were sitting in the front seat? Two or three?

4 A. Two. The driver and the person next to the driver.

5 Q. Who was sitting in the back?

6 A. Vehbija Karic.

7 Q. What about Celo? What about Zuka? Where were they sitting?

8 A. They were not in the car. They were outside, next to the command

9 headquarters.

10 Q. How could you see them?

11 A. After their departure with the jeep, they remained in the

12 village.

13 Q. Did you speak to them?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you approach them?

16 A. We could see them. When we came out, we saw them walking on the

17 road and talking.

18 Q. Witness E, you knew when you returned -- well, I'll come to that

19 in a minute.

20 You knew when you returned from your fighting duties down at

21 Dreznica, when you got back to Sarajevo, that there was likely to be an

22 investigation into what happened; is that correct?

23 A. I didn't know that.

24 Q. Well, you knew that your -- your superiors in the 2nd Independent

25 Battalion had passed on a report to the 1st Corps; is that correct?

Page 67

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. And you knew that you yourself, of course, had nothing to do with

3 the killings or the coverings-up or any of the other bad behaviour; is

4 that true?

5 A. True.

6 Q. But you also knew that when a bad incident like this takes place,

7 blame can be spread around quite wrongly; is that correct?

8 A. If nothing was done, then how could we be blamed for it? We

9 couldn't.

10 Q. No, no, I'm not suggesting that you did do anything wrong. But

11 do you agree with this: Sometimes people do try to shift the blame onto

12 other people. In your experience, do you agree with that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I want to ask you some questions about your diary.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe it's the right time for us to take a

16 break.


18 JUDGE LIU: If you are changing the subject to this diary.


20 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So we'll take a break, and we'll resume at 25

21 minutes to 1.00. Yes.

22 --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe the diary is ready in the e-court

25 system.

Page 68

1 Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Thank you very much, Witness E. Just before we get to the diary

4 though, there's one last series of questions I have for you concerning

5 your view of this jeep and so on.

6 Now, you made a statement sometime ago now, on the 7th of

7 October, 2000, to a man named Nikolai Mikhailov with an interpreter

8 present called Marc Jeffery, and on that occasion you said this:

9 "During the war, I wrote my original notes immediately or sometime soon

10 after the events while they were still fresh in my mind in a small diary

11 and on various pieces of paper. I rewrote these into a black desk diary

12 in 1995."

13 Now, first of all, is that true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And when you told that to Nikolai Mikhailov, the investigator,

16 you were determined to tell the truth about that diary; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what you say is that's what you told him, that's what he

19 wrote down, and that's why you were prepared to sign that statement to

20 that effect; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And indeed, Witness E, we don't -- or the -- the Tribunal doesn't

23 have the original of that diary before them, but you've got it in your

24 hand -- or you've got it before you there, haven't you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 69

1 Q. And the diary itself is a 1995 diary; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And so that when you told -- so that when you told Nikolai

4 Mikhailov about that, he recorded what you said perfectly accurately in

5 that statement, and that's why you signed the statement; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In that statement, on page 5, you said this: "I saw Sefer

8 Halilovic and Vehbija Karic, Zuka, some other senior military commanders,

9 Ramiz Delalic, Celo, Caco, and Adnan Solakovic walk along the village road

10 towards the exit from the village in the direction of the tunnel in the

11 direction of Dreznica."

12 Was that true?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, today you have said that you saw Sefer Halilovic being

15 driven in a jeep. Which one is true?

16 MR. WEINER: I'd object. That's a mischaracterisation of the

17 evidence. He has Sefer Halilovic in a jeep. He has Sefer Halilovic down

18 -- down the road with the -- by Adnan Solakovic's house. And then there's

19 this. That's a mischaracterisation of the evidence, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: I believe if witness could explain to us.

21 Witness, would you please answer the question.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After what happened, everybody

23 assembled in the village from the command. I don't know what they talked

24 about. Adnan didn't say -- or Adnan didn't convey to us what they talked

25 about.

Page 70

1 My statement can be confirmed also by a number of soldiers who

2 also saw what happened.


4 Q. Yes. But the question is - and it's been put to you very clearly

5 - in your statement you said, "I saw Sefer Halilovic," you then list a

6 number of others -- I'll read you the whole thing. But you say: "I say

7 Sefer Halilovic, and Vehbija Karic, Zuka, some other senior military

8 commanders, Ramiz Delalic, Celo, Caco, and Adnan Solakovic walk along the

9 village road ..."

10 Now, the question is: Since today you say you saw Halilovic in a

11 jeep, which one's true?

12 A. Both.

13 Q. Do you now wish to amend your evidence to say that you also saw

14 Mr. Halilovic walk down the road?

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Morrissey, I believe that you could give a

16 chance to this witness for him to explain why there's two contradictory

17 evidence here. Maybe the witness saw your client twice or three times.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I agree that the witness should be

19 given precisely that opportunity, and that's really what the question was

20 designed to do.

21 Q. So -- so, Witness E, what do you wish to assert now; that you saw

22 him more than once on that day or do you have some other explanation?

23 A. I saw him more than once that day.

24 Q. All right. Why did you not say that you'd seen him more than

25 once when you were asked questions by the Prosecutor and when you were

Page 71

1 asked questions by me?

2 A. I forgot. I was a little bit confused.

3 Q. I now have some questions to ask you about your diary. Have you

4 told the truth about writing your diary in 1995 before this Court?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Very well.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: I ask that the witness please be shown a

8 particular page of the diary. I'll have to give the particular ERN

9 number of that page. It's 01057890.

10 Q. Do you have that page in front of you -- I'm sorry, Witness E,

11 just wait for a moment, please. I apologise for this. When you have --

12 when it's in front of you -- I'll ask you the question.

13 Would it be possible that the page be scrolled down to see the

14 bottom few lines of that page.

15 JUDGE LIU: Could we have the English translation.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, we do not have an English

17 translation of this segment, but it's not the substance so much as

18 something else, which we'll come to in a moment. And what I have in mind

19 is to ask the witness to read live into the transcript this section and

20 something over the page and then I'll ask for his comment, and I hope that

21 it will be more than satisfactory when that's done.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, but as a rule, Mr. Morrissey, if you're using a

23 piece of the evidence, you have the obligation to have it translated into

24 the English.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: That's so, Your Honour. And frankly, I apologise

Page 72

1 for it. It's really a matter that's -- it has little to do with the

2 translation. I acknowledge what Your Honour says. We probably should

3 have. And I -- I apologise for that. What I'd seek leave of the Court to

4 do is to press on, ask the witness to read that in. If there is any

5 disadvantage to the Prosecutor, of course we won't resist any remedy at

6 all. But it will be apparent while I'm doing it when it's -- when it's

7 done.



10 JUDGE LIU: We'll see how far we could go.

11 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Very well. Now, do you have, Witness E, in front of you the page

13 which begins with "The 13th of February -- Monday, the 13th of February,"

14 at least in the -- in the official notations in the top left-hand corner.

15 Do you have that?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay. Could the witness now please be shown down

18 to the bottom of the page again. And I'd ask you to read, please, the

19 last six lines of that page and the first line on the following page. So

20 could you please just read that out loud and the interpreters will

21 translate it as we go.

22 A. "What exactly happened, I don't know, because I wasn't present,

23 but I know for a fact that many stories have circulated to this day. But

24 the truth is that he's gone and" -- and then the next page.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Could we please have the top of the next page.

Page 73

1 A. I don't have it.

2 Q. Yes. It will take a moment, Witness E, for that to be shown to

3 you.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: So the next page will be 01057891.

5 A. "To this day, 26 of April, 1998, nothing is known about him,

6 whether he is alive or dead."

7 Q. The truth is you wrote this in 1998; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in 1998, you were under pressure from the police because you

10 had recently been charged with offences; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you were very worried that -- and also, you knew that there

13 was an investigation into the crimes at Grabovica; is that correct?

14 A. I didn't know at the time.

15 Q. Yes. And at that time, in 1998, you wrote out this diary, I

16 suggest to you, as a way of protecting yourself against wrongful

17 accusations that you had something to do with these crimes. Do you agree

18 with that or not?

19 A. No. No. That's not true.

20 Q. And that the reason you didn't mention Sefer Halilovic's presence

21 in the village is because you didn't see Sefer Halilovic present in the

22 village at any time. Do you agree with that?

23 A. I do not agree.

24 Q. And do you also agree that at the time when these events happened

25 in September of 1993, you had some problems with marijuana use? Is that

Page 74

1 correct?

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Perhaps before the witness answers that, I'm not

3 sure what protections witnesses ought to be furnished with, but ...

4 JUDGE LIU: Well --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the

6 question.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: I will, yes.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, as a principle, I believe all the hearings

9 should be conducted in the open session unless one of the parties made a

10 request.


12 JUDGE LIU: Are you making that request, Mr. Morrissey?

13 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm not making it, Your Honour, but I just

14 thought I'd give fair warning because --

15 MR. WEINER: I am. And I want to know how this is relevant, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's relevant as to the credibility of this

18 witness, I believe.

19 MR. WEINER: How, Your Honour?

20 JUDGE LIU: Shall we -- shall we into the private session?

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 75











11 Pages 75-79 redacted. Private session.















Page 80

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.

16 Q. After your -- sorry, pardon me. I'll go back to that question

17 again. Some days after the killings in Grabovica, your unit went off to

18 fight at Dreznica; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In your diary, you have not recorded the precise number of nights

21 that you spent at Grabovica; is that correct too?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you, I suggest -- well, according to you, the day when you

24 say that you saw these commanders, that was on either the last or the

25 second-last day of your stay in the village; is that correct?

Page 81

1 A. The penultimate day.

2 Q. The second-last day.

3 Just excuse me one moment, please.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you. Witness E, thank you for your

6 patience in answering the questions. That's the end of the

7 cross-examination.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any --

9 MR. WEINER: One moment, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MR. WEINER: Just -- just briefly, Your Honour.

14 Re-examined by Mr. Weiner:

15 Q. Sir, in your statement to the OTP, you said the following - and

16 this relates to the diary - "During the war, I wrote my original notes

17 immediately or sometime soon after the events while they were still fresh

18 in my mind in a small diary and on various pieces of paper. I rewrote

19 these in a black desk diary in 1995. The first page of the diary says

20 '1995, Termin Tagebuch, personlisches'".

21 Sir, could you please explain what you did, when you wrote the

22 diary, when -- was it 1995, 1998. Please just tell the Court what you

23 did.

24 A. Well, I started writing it in 1995, and I copied the text from

25 the papers, from the loose papers, whenever I had time. When I finished

Page 82

1 that, you can translate what is stated on the last page, the 28th of

2 September, which was a Thursday.

3 Q. And when did you complete the information in that diary, complete

4 drafting it or writing it?

5 A. I don't remember when I finished that.

6 Q. The information in that diary, where does it come from?

7 A. Personal knowledge and what I saw.

8 Q. Now, the information contained in that diary, is it true to the

9 best of your knowledge, information, and belief?

10 A. True.

11 Q. The particular abstract concerning Grabovica, does that describe

12 in part what occurred?

13 A. Partially, only partially, without details.

14 Q. And when you were questioned by the Office of the Prosecutor in

15 2000, did you add additional details?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And are those true?

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, hang on. Sorry. Just a moment.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Pardon me. Sorry. That -- I withdraw the

21 objection. I'm sorry.


23 Q. Now, counsel asked you about a specific extract which you wrote

24 in 1998. First, where and when did you write that?

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I object to this. There may be

Page 83

1 some matters of clarification that are necessary, but it has to be

2 remembered that evidence about this diary was led in evidence in chief and

3 presumably following proofing. Now, the Prosecutor led what he chose to

4 lead at that time about the diary as being relevant to these proceedings.

5 Having been cross-examined now, in my submission, it's not appropriate to

6 start on a whole -- start at the beginning again with that diary, that --

7 the evidence was led by my friend as it was. Now, this appears to be an

8 attempt to re-commence evidence in chief. And so I object to it.

9 However, I note of course if there are matters of clarification, then they

10 are naturally legitimate.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think that extract written in 1998 was

12 cross-examined by the Defence team, so the Prosecution is entitled to ask

13 or to make some clarification on that issue.

14 Yes, Mr. Weiner, you may proceed.

15 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Sir, could you tell us where and when did you draft that extract?

17 A. Well, I wrote it at home when I had time, as I've just told you,

18 because after the war my memory was still fresh. All of these events were

19 still fresh in my memory and I wasn't able to write it down immediately.

20 I wanted to forget, but I was unable to. And I wanted to use these notes

21 to write something later, to write in more detail about each operation and

22 each area that we were deployed to.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I'm afraid you did not answer the

24 question put to you by the Prosecutor, because he specifically asked about

25 that extract, where and when did you write those extracts.

Page 84

1 Q. Let's take it one step at a time. First, where did you write it,

2 that particular extract, if you recall?

3 A. At home.

4 Q. And do you know approximately when?

5 A. Well, the date is there.

6 Q. And could you tell us what that is.

7 A. I can't find it.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey, do you want to help?

9 MR. MORRISSEY: I don't want to intervene. I can hold it up if

10 it helps all in court to know what page.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, on the 26th of April, 1998.


14 Q. And did you continue to write and complete that diary after that

15 date?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And could you tell us again, what's the reason that you were

18 writing this diary?

19 A. The reason I wrote the diary is that I wanted to use my notes in

20 order to describe each operation and each area from the beginning to the

21 end and to mention all of my pals from the 2nd Independent.

22 Q. And what did you plan to do with this information?

23 A. Just that, to write it down. Nothing else.

24 Q. Now, sir, did you -- did you ever provide any information to that

25 diary or did you ever write any information in that diary while you were

Page 85

1 under the influence of alcohol or anything else, any other substance?

2 A. No.

3 MR. WEINER: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

5 Any questions from Judges? Judge El Mahdi.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness. I would like to

9 seek some clarification. Could you give us some dates. You said that

10 when you arrived in Grabovica some days later some troops had arrived. Do

11 you remember when they arrived?

12 A. I don't remember the date. No.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But you do confirm that it

14 is on the night of their arrival that the events unfolded?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Well, you stated that on the

17 next morning after the events you were home or in the house and around

18 10.00 in the morning you saw the jeep in which Mr. Halilovic was,

19 according to you. Is that right?

20 A. I didn't mean that I saw that in the morning. They lined us up

21 in the morning; our command did.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] At what time did you see the

23 jeep?

24 A. In the afternoon.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But this is still on the day

Page 86

1 after the events?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So in the morning, there was

4 this line-up outside the command house, and then you returned to the

5 house.

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you said that you saw the

8 jeep when you were on the balcony or on the terrace.

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Was this on the first floor or

11 on the second floor?

12 A. The first floor.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Where was the jeep going or

14 where was it coming from?

15 A. Well, from the direction of our command, moving towards Dreznica.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So the driver was on your side.

17 A. No.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You saw Mr. Halilovic a second

19 time. When was it? After you saw him in the jeep? Was it?

20 A. Before. Before he passed in the jeep.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Therefore, where were you, then?

22 A. In front of the house, on the road.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Which road? And what were you

24 doing there?

25 A. Nothing. We were just standing on the road.

Page 87

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Doing what?

2 A. Nothing. Like I said, we were just standing on the road.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So close to the command place or

4 close to the house where you were?

5 A. Closer to the command.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Don't give any names, but were

7 you alone or were together with somebody?

8 A. With somebody.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And were you -- did you have

10 weapons?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But were you on orders of your

13 commander who told you to be positioned there?

14 A. No, we weren't.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But was it a habit of yours just

16 to walk about being armed in the village?

17 A. No, it wasn't a habit. It was immediately after the line-up and

18 after the weapons were issued.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but was that on -- on the

20 basis of orders, or were you complying with orders that had been given?

21 Had you been ordered to be stationed there, there where you were? Was it

22 so or did you decide yourself to be there? Was this by chance?

23 A. Purely by chance. There was no order for us to be there. We

24 were just standing there talking.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And thereafter, you returned to

Page 88

1 the house, did you, or did you just walk around the village?

2 A. I don't know how long we were on the road. After that, we

3 returned to the house.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So my last question will be as

5 follows: So you mentioned the jeep, and you said it happened in the

6 afternoon. Around what time? Was it still daylight?

7 A. I don't remember. Yes.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I'm quoting you in English: [In

9 English] "I don't remember. Yes." [Interpretation] How am I to

10 understand your question "I don't remember. Yes" -- or your answer,

11 rather?

12 A. Which question did I say that to?

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. I was saying that you said

14 that when you saw Mr. Halilovic in the jeep, it was in the afternoon. And

15 I asked you at what time and whether it was during the daytime, whether

16 there was still daylight.

17 A. Yes. Yes, I was daytime. You could still see. I don't

18 remember.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Judge El Mahdi.

22 Any questions out of Judge's questions?

23 MR. WEINER: No questions, Your Honour.


25 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Morrissey.

Page 89

1 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I do have one arising directly from

2 that. Could I indicate what it is. I wish to put a passage from the -- a

3 statement which the witness made, of which I've already put part of the

4 statement. But it relates to the -- the timing of the jeep -- the day on

5 which the jeep arrived.

6 Further cross-examination by Mr. Morrissey:

7 Q. I'm sorry, Witness E. This is at page 4 of the version -- the

8 English version in the final paragraph. In the statement you provided to

9 the OTP, you said this: "One day later" -- sorry, "One day later, that

10 is, the second day after I first saw the dead bodies in the village, I saw

11 Sefer Halilovic and Vehbija Karic, Zuka, and some other senior military

12 commanders in the village."

13 Now, in answer to a question by Judge El Mahdi, you seemed to

14 indicate to the Court that you saw this -- this jeep on the same day as

15 the line-up, and your evidence earlier was that the line-up took place

16 shortly after seeing the bodies. So my question to you is: Did you see,

17 according to you, Sefer Halilovic, Vehbija Karic, and the others on the

18 same day that you saw the bodies and did the line-up, or as you said in

19 your statement, did you see them one day later, that is, "the second day

20 after I first saw the dead bodies in the village"?

21 A. I don't remember. I can't answer that question. It's not clear

22 to me.

23 Q. Very well. Well, if the fault lies in the question, I'll put it

24 to you clearly so that there's no problem. You've told the investigators

25 clearly in the signed statement that you didn't see Sefer Halilovic,

Page 90

1 Vehbija Karic, and the others until one day later, that is, the second day

2 after you first saw the dead bodies in the village. That's what you told

3 the investigators. Now in your answer to Judge El Mahdi's questions you

4 seem to suggest that you Sefer Halilovic, Vehbija Karic, and the others on

5 the same day that you saw the bodies. And my question is: Which one is

6 right? Which day did you see these -- the -- the commanders that you

7 claim you saw?

8 A. The next day after what happened in the village, the day after.

9 So it's the next day. The first day when we came; and then the next day

10 is the day after.

11 Q. Excuse me. In those circumstances, why did you say to Judge El

12 Mahdi that you had the weapons and you were standing out on the road

13 because it was immediately after the line-up in front of the command post?

14 A. What do you mean why did I say it?

15 Q. Why did you say to Judge El Mahdi -- just excuse me. I'll find

16 the exact passage. Pardon me.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: At page 87, Your Honours, line 3, Judge El Mahdi

18 asked a question.

19 Witness E, I'll put the question and I'll put the answer.

20 Judge El Mahdi asked: "Was it a habit of yours just to walk

21 around -- walk about being armed in the village?" And you answered: "No,

22 it wasn't a habit. It was immediately after the line-up and after the

23 weapons were issued."

24 Q. Now, why did you give that answer, if it now is your evidence

25 that you didn't see Halilovic and Karic and the others until the following

Page 91

1 day?

2 A. You didn't understand. The first day when we arrived, and then

3 the next day, that's the following day.

4 Q. What is -- what is your position? I'm sorry, I -- I'm

5 misunderstanding you now. In the hope of clarifying, I'm not sure I have.

6 So let me be clear about this. Are you suggesting -- when you said to

7 Judge El Mahdi that you had those weapons and you were standing around

8 immediately after the line-up, was it your position at that point that

9 Sefer Halilovic, Karic, Zuka, and so on had been on the -- in the village

10 on the very same day that you saw these bodies?

11 A. Yes, they were in the village the same day.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage, are there any documents to

14 tender? I guess none.

15 MR. WEINER: I think we've tendered everything.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well, Witness, thank you very much for

19 coming to The Hague to give your evidence. I apologise to you for having

20 kept you here for so long.

21 When Madam Usher pulls down the blinds, she will show you out of

22 the room. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, do we have the next witness?

Page 92

1 MR. RE: Yes, Your Honour, I'll be taking the next witness. The

2 Prosecution has a -- an application for protective measures in relation to

3 that witness. I informed Defence counsel and the registry before. Is it

4 an appropriate time to make the application now?


6 MR. RE: The -- perhaps we should go into private session for

7 that.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

9 [Private session]

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11 Pages 93-101 redacted. Private session.















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24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of

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1 March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.