Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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 1                            Thursday, 17 March 2005

 2                            [Open session]

 3                            [The accused entered court]

 4                            [The witness entered court]

 5                            --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 6             JUDGE LIU:  Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 8    number IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

 9             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

10             Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

11             Good afternoon, Witness.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

13             JUDGE LIU:  Are you ready to start?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm ready.

15             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Morrissey, your cross-examination, please.

17             MR. MORRISSEY:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

18                            WITNESS:  EMIN ZEBIC [Resumed]

19                            [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                            Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:

21        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Zebic.

22             Mr. Zebic, the first questions I have for you concern the

23    structure of the civilian police services in Jablanica and Mostar.  So

24    these are going to be general questions that I have.

25             First of all, the civilian police, of which you were a member,

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 1    was administered under the Ministry of the Interior, the MUP; is that

 2    correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And your position was as the head of civilian police at the

 5    Jablanica police station; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Zebic, because in this court we have to deal with a

 8    number of acronyms for various departments of the government and the

 9    military, I'm going to ask you to explain a couple of the acronyms that

10    are relevant to your part of the police force.

11             Is the acronym for the Jablanica police station the SJB?

12        A.   The literal translation of "SJB" would be "Stanica Javne

13    Bezbjednosti," public security station.  It includes the police station,

14    as well as the police administration.

15        Q.   Yes, I understand.  And that police station has a local

16    jurisdiction.  And could you explain what that local jurisdiction was and

17    what the limits of that jurisdiction were in area terms, please.

18        A.   Local jurisdiction implies that the law establishes that the

19    public security station is territorially responsible for public security

20    affairs within the confines of the municipality in which it was formed,

21    meaning that all police matters and all administrative matters, such as

22    the issuance of personal identity cards, driver's licences, and so on, is

23    something that they would deal with.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now, in peacetime and under normal circumstances, where

25    did the responsibility for the Jablanica SJB end?  If you were travelling

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 1    down the highway to Mostar, the M17, how far did your jurisdiction reach

 2    and where did it stop?

 3        A.   The direction towards Mostar is to the south.  It's some eight to

 4    nine kilometres.  Topographically there is a bridge across the

 5    Neretva River at a place called Aleksin Han.

 6        Q.   And was it at that bridge that in normal circumstances the

 7    jurisdiction of your police station came to an end?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   On the other side of that bridge and proceeding southwards

10    towards Dreznica and ultimately towards Mostar, in peacetime which police

11    station normally had jurisdiction over that area?

12        A.   The Mostar Public Security Station.

13        Q.   Very well.  Now, I'm going to ask you in a moment about that --

14    that security station and how it fits into the hierarchy.  But as a matter

15    of realities, that M17 highway down to Mostar had been interrupted and cut

16    off by HVO forces in August -- at least during the time of August and

17    September of 1993.  Is that accurate?

18        A.   Perhaps you're mistaken about the year.  I think this was in

19    1992.

20        Q.   Well, no, I'm sorry, it may be that my question was misleading.

21    The time period that I'm interested by is August and September of the year

22    1993.  And what I wanted to ask you is not when the HVO first cut that

23    road but as at August and September of 1993, was that road in fact cut?

24    Had it already been cut by the HVO?

25        A.   Yes, to the south of Dreznica.

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 1        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  I understand.  And as a result of that, was it

 2    your practice at the Jablanica SJB to assist with civilian police matters

 3    in Grabovica and the villages to the south of it, even though they were

 4    outside of your jurisdiction, simply because the Mostar police station was

 5    cut off from that area by the HVO?

 6        A.   That was not the practice, no.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I've already asked you about what the SJB was, and now I

 8    have a question concerning the next level up the scale.  Was there in

 9    Mostar a -- an institution called the Mostar CSB?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Very well.  Could you just explain to the Tribunal here what is a

12    CSB and how does it relate in the hierarchy to the SJB, and in particular

13    how did the Mostar CSB relate to the Jablanica SJB.

14        A.   "CSB" means "Centar Sluzbi Bezbjednosti," public security centre,

15    or security services centre.  And it was part of the Ministry of the

16    Internal Affairs, and it would unify a territory where there were several

17    public security stations. The Mostar one would cover the public security

18    stations in Jablanica, Konjic, and so on.

19        Q.   Very well.  Now, just to clarify that a little bit further, was

20    the Mostar CSB an institution that also contained the local police force

21    centre for Mostar itself, as well as having these higher-level functions

22    that you've mentioned?

23        A.   The question is not quite clear to me, but basically yes, the

24    Security Services Centre would include all the public security stations in

25    Mostar.  At that point in time, unfortunately, Mostar was divided, so this

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 1    Security Services Centre covered only the territory that was under the

 2    control of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   Yes, I understand.  Very well.  So in the administrative

 4    hierarchy of things, you, as the -- as the head of the SJB in Jablanica,

 5    in theory were under the jurisdiction higher up the chain of the Mostar

 6    CSB, and the Mostar CSB in turn was under the administration of the

 7    Ministry of the Interior, the MUP; is that correct?

 8        A.   That is correct.

 9        Q.   Yes, thank you.  I'm grateful to you for clarifying these

10    matters.

11             The minister in charge of the Ministry of the Interior at that

12    time was a man named Bakir Alispahic; is that correct?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   Very well.  Now, I now want to turn in some more detail to the

15    situation at Jablanica itself.  At the Jablanica police station, you were

16    the head of that police station and your deputy was Mr. Salihamidzic; is

17    that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, I might -- just excuse me one

20    moment, please, Mr. Zebic.

21             Your Honours, just as a matter of caution, I think I should

22    mention something now that that -- that name escaped my lips.  The

23    Prosecutors mentioned --

24             Yes, Your Honour, could we go to the private session, please.

25    I'm sorry.

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 1             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

 2                            [Private session]

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 7                            [Open session]

 8             JUDGE LIU:  Now we are in the open session.

 9             MR. MORRISSEY:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Pardon me, Mr. Zebic, for that interruption.

11             Your deputy was named Mr. Salihamidzic; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And his nickname at the time was Cicko; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, in August and September of 1993, there was another person

16    present at the Jablanica SJB about whom I wish to ask you.  Were you

17    familiar with the -- an officer who was attached to the Mostar CSB named

18    Sead Brankovic?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, was he an officer who was effectively employed by the

21    Ministry of the Interior, rather than by the -- by the army or the

22    Ministry of Defence?  Is that accurate?

23        A.   According to the information I had at the time, he was a member

24    of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, a member of the public security.

25        Q.   Yes.  To your knowledge, did he report to persons at Mostar named

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 1    Alica Bilic and Ramo Maslesa?

 2        A.   I'm sorry, it's not quite clear to me now.  You are mentioning

 3    two names now.  Alica Bilic and Ramo Maslesa.

 4        Q.   Yes, I'm sorry.  Well, perhaps I should just ask you about that,

 5    bearing in mind that it's 11 years ago.

 6            Do you recall the name Ramo Maslesa?

 7        A.   Yes, of course.

 8        Q.   Ask do you recall that he was a senior officer at the Mostar CSB?

 9        A.   He was my immediate superior.

10        Q.   Yes.  And do you also recall Alica Bilic?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And he was an officer of state security at -- at the Mostar CSB;

13    is that correct?

14        A.   It's possible.  I'm not sure about that though.  I cannot confirm

15    it.

16        Q.   That's okay.  I have to ask you the questions, but if you don't

17    recall, then that's -- then that's your answer.

18             May I come back to my original question:  Was it your

19    understanding that Sead Brankovic reported to these two individuals whilst

20    he was placed at your police station in August and September of 1993?

21        A.   Yes, I think so.  Yes.

22        Q.   Very well.  At all events, Sead Brankovic was not directly

23    responsible or accountable to you; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And to your understanding, part of the reason why or a large part

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 1    of the reason why Sead Brankovic was present at your police station is

 2    because of the disruption to communications between Mostar and the CSB in

 3    Mostar, on the one hand, and your police station in Jablanica, on the

 4    other hand; is that correct?

 5        A.   It's true that the roads were not clear.  They were not passable.

 6        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  Very well.  Now, I have some questions for you

 7    now about the military units that were in Jablanica.  I bear in mind that

 8    you were -- you were employed by the Ministry of the Interior.  But you

 9    may be able to answer these questions from personal knowledge.

10             First of all, I've got some questions for you about the

11    44th Mountain Brigade.  Now, was there a unit based at Jablanica which was

12    a regular unit of the Bosnian army called the 44th Mountain Brigade?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Was it commanded by Enes Kovacevic?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And at the time in August and September of 1993, was his deputy a

17    man named Senad Dzino?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did he have a military security officer named Zajko Sihirlic at

20    that time?

21        A.   I think so, yes.

22        Q.   Now, you being a member of the -- of the civilian police, Zajko

23    Sihirlic had no duty to report to you; is that correct?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   And, in fact, as you understood the procedures, his duties were,

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 1    on the one hand, to his own commander, and, on the other hand, to report

 2    along the professional line up the scale of the SVB; is that correct?

 3        A.   No, he did not report to the public security station, in any

 4    event.

 5        Q.   I understand.  Now, I just have another question about the

 6    44th Mountain Brigade.  You -- you gave evidence yesterday, no doubt in

 7    completely good faith, that your recollection was that the 44th Brigade

 8    was in the zone of responsibility militarily speaking of the 4th Corps.

 9    Now, I have some questions for you about that.

10             Were you aware that in July -- sorry, in June, actually, of -- of

11    1993 a new corps was brought into being, namely the 6th Corps, which

12    assumed responsibility for some parts of the old 4th Corps's units?

13        A.   I heard that the 6th Corps had been formed, but the local brigade

14    remained our local brigade, and I was -- continued to cooperate with them

15    most frequently.

16        Q.   I understand that.  In terms of your responsibilities, you -- you

17    dealt with the 44th Brigade both before and after the creation of the

18    6th Corps; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And, in fact, the 44th Mountain Brigade had a -- very much a

21    local character and had in its ranks very many local people; is that

22    correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Very well.  Well, we've heard some sworn evidence in this court

25    from other witnesses that the 44th Brigade came to be under the control

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 1    directly of the 6th Corps.  I take it you don't dispute that that is what

 2    happened after the 6th Corps was created in June of 1993.

 3        A.   These are military matters, and I don't really have much interest

 4    for them.

 5        Q.   No.  Well, I understand that it was not a matter that impacted on

 6    your operations to any significant extent.  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... All right.  Now, you've

 9    indicated that there were daily meetings held at your police station at

10    which various policemen attended.  Was it the practice that you would

11    invite a representative from the 44th Brigade to be present at those

12    meetings in order to liaise properly and in order not to cause trouble for

13    the military and for them not to cause trouble with you?

14        A.   We did have such meetings, not on a daily basis though.

15    Sometimes it happened at the public security station, and sometimes they

16    were held at the 44th Brigade command.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And who was the 44th Brigade person whom you dealt

18    with most frequently in terms of that liaison?

19        A.   Mostly the commander of the military police company and this

20    person whom you mentioned who was in charge of security, Mr. Sihirlic.

21        Q.   Yes.  And just so that the record reflects this, you've indicated

22    the commander of the military police.  By that do you mean Mr. Sead Kurt?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Very well.  All right.  Now -- and thank you once again for

25    clarifying these -- these organisational matters.  There's one other

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 1    matter I want to clarify with you again, and that was the -- just the

 2    structure of the War Presidency.  The War Presidency was a -- a civil

 3    authority headed by Dr. Safet Cibo, C-i-b-o; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And it had responsibility for logistics and -- and for

 6    effectively civil administration in the Jablanica area at that time?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You as civilian chief -- sorry, civilian police chief were an

 9    ex officio member of that War Presidency; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

12             Yes, I think that's the institutional questions.

13             Now, could I just ask you some questions about early September

14    1993 and the situation that existed in Jablanica at that time.  First of

15    all, Jablanica was a -- a small town -- well, perhaps could you tell us

16    what was the normal peacetime population of Jablanica before hostilities

17    broke out?

18        A.   There were around 12.600 people living in the entire territory of

19    the municipality of Jablanica.  Over 70 per cent were Bosniak.  Around 20

20    per cent were Croats.  And the rest were Serbs and others, such as

21    gypsies, et cetera.

22        Q.   So predominantly -- predominantly Bosniak but with significant

23    populations of -- with a significant population of Croats and -- and also

24    other populations present; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

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 1        Q.   The township of Jablanica itself, what was the population of that

 2    township before hostilities began?  Approximately.

 3        A.   Three, four thousand.  Three and a half, four thousand.

 4        Q.   Very well.  After hostilities commenced between the HVO and the

 5    Bosnian government army, did Jablanica come under fire on any occasions?

 6        A.   Before the outbreak of the conflict between the army and the HVO,

 7    Jablanica was never under attack.

 8        Q.   I'm sorry, well, perhaps my question wasn't clear.  I'm really

 9    asking about the time after that -- that conflict broke out.  Once it

10    broke out, did Jablanica then come to be under fire?

11        A.   Beginning with April 1992 until then, there were frequent

12    shellings of the population centre of Jablanica itself.

13        Q.   You mentioned the year 1992, Mr. Zebic.  It's -- it's -- is it

14    your understanding that the conflict between the HVO and the -- and the

15    Bosnian government army commenced with hostilities at Prozor late in 1992?

16        A.   I misspoke.    I'm sorry, Your Honours.  It should be April 1993.

17    That's when the hostilities began around Jablanica.

18        Q.   Okay.  Now, you've indicated that after that time, Jablanica did

19    come under shelling.  Do you -- are you -- do you mean artillery fire from

20    the HVO side?

21        A.   Yes, only.

22        Q.   Okay.  And did that shelling continue throughout 1993?  I'm

23    particularly thinking about August and September of 1993 when I ask

24    question.

25        A.   I can't be certain about these two months, but I believe in that

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 1    period there was constant fire around Jablanica and on Jablanica.

 2        Q.   And in terms of the fire on Jablanica, did that cause casualties

 3    among the civilian population?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Was there a hospital in Jablanica?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Was it set up to deal with the volume of injuries and wounds and

 8    disasters which occurred once the shelling began in Jablanica?

 9        A.   I'm not a medical professional.  All I can say is that many, many

10    wounded people, fighting men and civilians were taken care of by that

11    hospital.

12        Q.   Do you recall how many doctors they had on the staff there, from

13    your own knowledge?

14        A.   I don't remember exactly, but I know some doctors from Mostar had

15    come to help out at the Jablanica hospital.

16        Q.   I take it they were pretty busy, from what you were able to

17    observe.  Is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, every day.

19        Q.   Very well.  And another effect of the HVO conflict was that

20    transport to Konjic became quite difficult; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And although you've answered this question in another form

23    already, transport to Mostar became quite difficult; is that correct?

24        A.   It was almost impossible.

25        Q.   Yes.  I have some brief questions now, turning away from

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 1    Jablanica to Mostar, about your understanding of the situation in Mostar.

 2    It was well known by August and September of 1993 that the extreme

 3    elements of the HVO had declared their intention to make Mostar the

 4    capital city of the new Republic of Herceg-Bosna; is that true?

 5        A.   It's difficult for me to confirm, but facts seem to support what

 6    you just said.

 7        Q.   And you, as police chief, came to know that a large number of

 8    persons were arriving on Bosnian government territory from territory owned

 9    or held by the HVO; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   In the translations that we have, various terms are used, and I

12    wanted to ask you about those terms.  We have the term "refugee" in some

13    papers and also the term "expellee" and a variety of different terms are

14    used.  What was your understanding of where these people were coming from,

15    the people who arrived on your territory?  Were they coming from villages

16    from which they were expelled, or were they coming from prison camps, or

17    are there other sources as well?

18        A.   Among civilians who arrived in the territory of Jablanica, there

19    were many who had been in prison camps in Herzegovina.  Some had been

20    expelled from villages in Eastern Herzegovina, Gacko, Nevesinje, Stolac,

21    for example.  But in the period that we are discussing now, the summer of

22    1993, people were coming mainly from camps, locals of Capljina, Stolac,

23    Mostar, that area.

24        Q.   I understand.  Now, is it accurate to say that by the end of --

25    or sorry, perhaps I should ask this:  Throughout summer, throughout the

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 1    summer of 1993, there was a -- a fairly steady stream of refugees and

 2    expellees coming onto the territory under the jurisdiction of your police

 3    station; is that correct?

 4        A.   Right.

 5        Q.   Where did you put them to live, and how did you find places for

 6    them to live?

 7        A.   The people who were directly involved in finding accommodation

 8    for those people would be better placed to tell you, such as members of

 9    the Civilian Defence Staff, members of the Red Cross.  But from what I

10    know, at one point there were many more refugees and people who had been

11    expelled in Jablanica than locals, and it was very difficult - you're

12    right about that - to put them up in the small area of our town, squeezed

13    as it was between two enemy armies.  They were put up in schoolhouses, in

14    cinema halls, in museums even, in private family houses, in office space

15    of various enterprises, some prefab buildings that had been left over on

16    various construction sites.  The problem was really severe in a small

17    township like Jablanica.

18        Q.   Is it accurate to say that the problem spilled over into other

19    villages in the area?  I'm thinking now of Grabovica, Buturovic Polje as

20    examples.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   I'll come to the Grabovica situation in detail soon.  But apart

23    from Buturovic Polje, can you comment on any other places that you now

24    recall refugees being sent in order to accommodate them?

25        A.   Let me tell you one thing.  You're probably not very familiar

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 1    with the situation there.  Konjic was under fire.  You couldn't send them

 2    to Mostar.  In the west, there was the HVO, which wouldn't allow any

 3    communication.  So we couldn't send them on anywhere.  We had to let them

 4    stay where they were, in our town, and find a place for them.

 5        Q.   Yes, I understand.  And I take it from what you say that at the

 6    end of -- at the end of August and early in September the problem didn't

 7    stop but, rather, it got worse and more refugees just kept coming.  Is

 8    that the case?

 9        A.   [No interpretation]

10        Q.   I just had a couple of specific questions about places where

11    refugees were -- were housed.  First of all, I take it it was not the job

12    of you or your police force directly to -- to house these people but it

13    was the job of other civilian authorities.  Is that correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   At that time, was there still in existence the old -- an old

16    quasi-military organisation called the TO?

17        A.   At that time you mean?  In 1993?

18        Q.   Yes.  And I mean specifically end of -- end of September and --

19    sorry.  Pardon me.  I take that back.  I mean specifically end of August

20    and early September 1993.  Did the TO still exist at that time or had it

21    been abolished already?

22        A.   I can't be sure about this.  If it existed, it was just the local

23    command in charge of dealing with local problems of Jablanica --

24        Q.   Yes.

25        A.   -- only.

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 1        Q.   I understand.  And in terms of providing security at various

 2    important civil institutions, was that the role of the TO, to provide, for

 3    example, guards at the hydroelectric plant and so on?

 4        A.   I don't know that.  The police didn't do this.

 5        Q.   No, I understand.  I've got some questions about one particular

 6    institution; that's the museum in Jablanica.  Now, to your knowledge, was

 7    the museum a public building which had to be used because there was

 8    nowhere else to put certain refugees?

 9        A.   [No audible response]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the answer.  Could

11    the witness be asked to speak up a little.

12             MR. MORRISSEY:  Yes.

13        Q.   Mr. Zebic, the interpreter just had difficulty hearing your

14    answer.  Then although -- actually, I heard it.  But would you mind just

15    repeating it, please, for the transcript.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Sometimes we need to speak a little bit clearly for

18    the interpreter's benefit here.

19             Very well.  Now, can you just explain how big that museum was --

20    sorry, that's a meaningless question.  I'll take that back.  I'll deal

21    with it another way.

22             At the end of August of 1993, to the best of your recollection,

23    how many -- how many of the Bosniak refugees were to be found at the

24    museum?

25        A.   Certainly above 100.  I can't be sure about the number.

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 1        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Zebic, I take it that -- I'll

 2    put this in very general terms first and I'll come to specifics in a

 3    minute.  These were very challenging and difficult times for a policeman

 4    to be doing his work; is that correct?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   It was a time of some social dislocation with tensions between

 7    parts of the community that lived in Jablanica.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And those tensions were magnified and complicated by the arrival

10    of traumatised, hungry, and unhappy Bosniaks from the HVO territories or

11    HVO-held territories; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And it was also a time during which local criminals found it

14    easier than usual to procure guns and weapons; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And the police therefore had a full-time job in preserving public

17    order in Jablanica; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And furthermore, I take it that you were not able to double

20    your -- sorry, I'll ask the question another way.

21             Resources, as far as manpower goes, were quite scarce for the

22    police because the army was making demands on the young men in the

23    territory; is that correct?

24        A.   It is a fact that the army had priority.  However, the police was

25    also assisted by a number of reserve policemen.

Page 20

 1        Q.   I understand.  How many regular police were stationed at the --

 2    at the Jablanica police station?

 3        A.   In wartime conditions, everybody is in regular service.  I

 4    mentioned the reserve only because at the beginning of the conflict a

 5    number of those reservists were deployed in the police station of

 6    Jablanica, because that's where they had their wartime assignment.

 7        Q.   Yes, I understand that.  So what were the numbers of -- of

 8    participating police at the Jablanica police station?

 9        A.   It varied from 150 to 200.

10        Q.   And those 150 to 200 had the tasks of doing all police work

11    within your -- within your municipality; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I understand.  The military police in Jablanica, to your

14    knowledge, were commanded by Sead Kurt; is that correct?

15        A.   Only the military police of the 44th Mountain Brigade.

16        Q.   I understand.  Now, as far -- I understand you weren't in command

17    of them, but I just want you to assist the Tribunal to know what sort of

18    tasks they had to perform.  Was one task that you knew the military police

19    to perform to protect the command post of the 44th Mountain Brigade and

20    provide security for that important institution?

21        A.   It is not up to me to judge really.  I think you should ask a

22    military expert.

23        Q.   We're going to, but we'd value what you saw as well because you

24    were there.  I appreciate that you -- you weren't in command of these

25    people.

Page 21

 1             Are you able to comment on this:  At the museum facility, so far

 2    as you understood, was the security there provided by the military police

 3    from the 44th Brigade?

 4        A.   As far as I know, at that museum the military police had its

 5    offices, its own space, and it's possible that military police would

 6    normally be seen around and in that building at that time, but I don't

 7    believe they were serving as guards at the museum where displaced and

 8    other persons who had come because they had been expelled were put up

 9    temporarily.

10        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Now, I want to turn to the village of

11    Grabovica and your knowledge of that, even though it was outside of your

12    jurisdictional area, on your evidence.

13             You knew that the village of Grabovica had ethnic Croats in it on

14    both sides of the river; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You knew that as time went by refugees were located with those

17    villagers to a large extent on the left bank but also on the right bank to

18    some degree; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You knew that a unit called Cedo's Wolves or sometimes, I think,

21    called the Igman Wolves were billeted in -- in some business offices of

22    the hydroelectric plant amongst the houses on the left bank; is that

23    correct?

24        A.   On the left bank, yes, but there were no houses around, I must

25    say.  The houses of local people were slightly further below the offices

Page 22

 1    that you mention.

 2        Q.   Very well.  You knew that a unit called the Handzar Division, a

 3    small unit called the Handzar Division, came to be located in the village

 4    of Grabovica; is that correct?

 5        A.   I don't know that.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Did you ever meet a man -- an Albanian man, the commander

 7    of a unit called Handzar, who went by the name of Dzeki, D-z-e-k-i?

 8        A.   I heard about him.  For a while, they were in the town of

 9    Jablanica.

10        Q.   I understand.  You knew that Zuka's unit, under the direction of

11    Zulfikar Alispago, was based at Donja Jablanica; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I'll come back to some of these questions in a moment.  I've just

14    got some general questions about that.  To your understanding, the policy

15    of the Bosnian government during the war was to fight to preserve a

16    multi-ethnic community; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And, in fact, as far as you're concerned, the killings that

19    happened in Grabovica caused you major difficulties with the civilian

20    population at a later time; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   As far as you could see, the killings that took place in

23    Grabovica were totally contrary to the aims of the Bosnian state; is that

24    correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 23

 1        Q.   Now, returning to the relations between the army and the citizens

 2    of Grabovica before the killings took place.  You were aware that the army

 3    had attempted to establish good relations with those citizens; is that

 4    correct?  Providing medical facilities and so on.

 5        A.   Yes.  For the most part, it was provided all from Jablanica.

 6        Q.   Yes.  In fact, it was just -- maybe you can clarify this, but --

 7    I think you already have clarified it.  Thanks.

 8             All right.  And did you yourself have occasion to visit the

 9    village of Grabovica in the weeks or so before the killing took place?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Okay.  Well, then I had a series of questions, but I won't ask

12    you those questions, since you didn't go there.

13             Very well.  I want to move forward now to approximately the 6th

14    of -- of September.  So now I'm going to ask you some questions about

15    the -- the events that you were involved in.

16             On or about the 6th of September, did Minister Bakir Alispahic

17    pass through the village -- sorry, the town of Jablanica on his way down

18    to Mostar?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And when he -- while he was passing through, did he attend -- to

21    your knowledge, did he attend a meeting of commanders -- or perhaps I

22    shouldn't use the word "commanders."  Did he attend a meeting of -- of

23    military leaders in the town of Jablanica?  I'm not suggesting that you

24    attended, but to your knowledge, did he attend such a meeting?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 24

 1        Q.   On his way down to Mostar, was he accompanied by a unit of the

 2    Ministry of the Interior sometimes known -- or known as the Laste Unit?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you told us yesterday that the Laste Unit was en route to

 5    help at the Mostar CSB, and that was a truthful and accurate answer,

 6    wasn't it, that you gave yesterday?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And did that Laste Unit stop in Jablanica for a night, or did it

 9    just pass straight on through to Mostar, as far as you know?

10        A.   I don't remember that now.  It's possible that they did spend the

11    night, but I'm not sure.

12        Q.   Very well.  Okay.  Now, you indicated yesterday to my learned

13    friend Mr. Sachdeva that you knew because of your contacts at the

14    44th Mountain Brigade that Sarajevo units were being billeted in the

15    village of Grabovica.  And my question for you is:  Did you know on the

16    night of the 8th and the 9th - that's the night beginning -- the end of

17    the 8th and the morning of the 9th, that night - did you know that a new

18    group of refugees from the Dretelj camp came up the road from Dreznica,

19    coming to Grabovica, and some of them ultimately coming to -- to

20    Jablanica?  Was that something within your knowledge?

21        A.   I don't remember that at the moment.

22        Q.   Very well.  Just excuse me one moment, please.

23                            [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. MORRISSEY:  Now, Your Honours, the --

25             Excuse me, please, Mr. Zebic.

Page 25

 1                            [Defence counsel confer]

 2             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, I'm sorry to say that I -- there's

 3    a document I wish to show the witness but it's been tendered into evidence

 4    but I don't have the number.  I have the Defence number.  If I provide the

 5    Defence 65 ter number, it may be that I can be assisted by the court

 6    staff.  And I apologise for not having the proper number.

 7             The Defence document is D623A.  It was tendered, I believe,

 8    through the witness Salko Gusic, and it's a document from Mr. Sihirlic

 9    addressed to the 6th Corps command and it concerns the movement of those

10    people up the road and other things.

11        Q.   What I'm going to show you now, Mr. Zebic, is an order.  You may

12    not have seen it.  And I wouldn't have naturally come to you.  But it's

13    now in evidence in this case, and I just want you to look at it and tell

14    me if you have seen it and then I'll ask you some questions in any event

15    about it.

16             MR. MORRISSEY:  I believe it to be 623A.

17             MR. SACHDEVA:  Your Honour, may I --

18             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

19             MR. SACHDEVA:  -- just inquire from my learned friend, does he

20    mean 623B?

21             MR. MORRISSEY:  Well, I -- the Defence counsel is happy to say

22    that I'm not sure which one I'm referring to.  I believe I'm referring to

23    623.  I apologise for this.  It's a -- it's a record-keeping glitch, and I

24    rely very heavily on Mr. Cengic in these situations, and he's -- he's not

25    able to be here.

Page 26

 1             I think I can deal with the matter a different way.  Perhaps if I

 2    can just --

 3                            [Defence counsel confer]

 4             MR. SACHDEVA:  If I may be of assistance, I think it is 623B.

 5             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, I think 623B just appeared on the

 6    screen, and that certainly is the one that we want.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Defence Exhibit D153.

 8             MR. MORRISSEY:  Thank you.  I'm grateful to the court staff,

 9    D153.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'm grateful to the Prosecutor for assisting on

11    that occasion.

12             This is -- what I'm showing you now is a military document, and

13    I'm not sure whether you've seen it before, but I would just ask you to

14    briefly look at it and see whether you have seen it before and ...

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Well, I don't think it's fair to leave it in front of the

17    witness.

18             MR. MORRISSEY:  In those circumstances, I've had ask that that be

19    withdrawn from in front of him.

20        Q.   Yes.  Okay, Mr. Zebic.  I won't ask you about that document.

21             Did you become aware on the morning of the 9th, that is to say,

22    before you were told of the killings or any of the trouble that happened,

23    did you become aware that a new group of refugees had come up the highway

24    via Grabovica, some of whom arrived in -- in Jablanica that night or early

25    in the morning of the 9th?

Page 27

 1        A.   I cannot remember.  Unless there was some security problems, I

 2    didn't even have to know that that morning.

 3        Q.   No.  Okay.  All right.  Now, finally, before we get to the -- the

 4    episode of the -- of your involvement in these sad events:  You've

 5    indicated that you came to know that there was a -- a forward command

 6    post, also called an IKM, in Jablanica via your contacts in the

 7    44th Brigade; is that correct?

 8        A.   Amongst other things, with the 44th Brigade and also the command.

 9    I think a lot of the citizens in Jablanica knew that.

10        Q.   Yes.  The fact is Mr. Halilovic was a very famous person in -- in

11    Bosnia at that time; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And to your knowledge, he was the -- the person who had founded

14    the army and -- or at least presided over the -- the creation of the

15    Bosnian army as a viable fighting force; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   At one stage, did his picture hang in the -- in the Jablanica

18    police station?

19        A.   I think so, yes.

20        Q.   Did an order come to take it down?

21        A.   There was no order to put the photograph up or to take it down.

22        Q.   Did you know that there was an inspection team of the Supreme

23    Command Staff in the area of Herzegovina and specifically in Jablanica

24    headed by Sefer Halilovic and also including other well-known generals:

25    Vehbija Karic, Zicro Suljevic, and Rifat Bilajac?

Page 28

 1        A.   I heard that these names that you just mentioned were talked

 2    about, but I'm not aware of the context in which the names were mentioned

 3    because these names were that well known to me that I knew that we were

 4    talk about senior-ranking officers of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia

 5    and Herzegovina.

 6        Q.   Yes, I understand.  And just -- I want to ask you this:  In -- in

 7    late August and early September of 1993, did you personally meet Sefer

 8    Halilovic in that time?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Did you speak to him on the telephone?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Did you have any other form of communication with him directly in

13    that time?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Very well.  All right.  Now, I want to turn to the morning of

16    the 9th -- sorry, well, the day of the 9th of September, when your

17    involvement in this matter effectively commenced.  You indicated that you

18    spoke to Mr. Salihamidzic and that you had a discussion with him about

19    what to do when you received the bad news, or the first rumours of bad

20    news.

21             Now, you were shown yesterday a document by my learned friend the

22    Prosecutor Mr. Sachdeva, which was a note by -- by Mr. Salihamidzic

23    concerning his activities.  And I just wanted to ask you this:  He says in

24    that note that at 1500 hours he set off to go out onto the terrain to have

25    a look to see what had happened.  And what I want to put to you is this:

Page 29

 1    That document was written at the time and that accurately reflects the

 2    time which he set off; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   All right.  Now, I just want to ask you a little bit about what

 5    happened before he left and about the news that you had available to you

 6    in that time.

 7             You've already indicated how it was that you spoke to

 8    Mr. Salihamidzic.  You had a discussion with him about your jurisdiction

 9    and your powers to act; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And that was a real issue because in theory your powers ended at

12    the Aleksin Han bridge; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And, again, this is purely in theory:  In theory, it should have

15    been the Mostar police station that looked after any crimes, and of course

16    leaving aside the issue of whether the military join in.  But in terms of

17    jurisdiction, from your point of view, if it was a police matter, in

18    theory it should have been a Mostar police matter; is that accurate?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And as well as that jurisdictional issue, from the news you had,

21    there was the possibility that military personnel might have been involved

22    in the crimes; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Very well.  And it was for that reason essentially that you

25    called Sead Kurt to have a discussion with him.

Page 30

 1        A.   That and the other reason is that the military component did have

 2    the option of going to that area legally and then we could go with them in

 3    order to assist them.

 4        Q.   Yes.  And when you say they could go there legally, that's

 5    because that village was, from a military point of view, within the zone

 6    of operations of the 44th Brigade; correct?

 7        A.   Probably.

 8        Q.   Yes.  But that was your thinking at the time; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes.

10        Q.   I understand.  And you'd been dealing with the 44th Brigade in

11    detail for many months, and indeed you kept dealing with them after that

12    for -- for months as well; is that true?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Just in terms of that issue of -- of the 44th Brigade, did you

15    ever meet with the commander of the 6th Corps, Salko Gusic?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Did you ever meet with the head of military security of the

18    6th Corps, a man named Nermin Eminovic?

19        A.   Perhaps we saw each other, but I didn't record that meeting

20    anywhere.

21        Q.   Do you recall any such meeting yourself, regardless of notes?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Very well.  And finally, did you yourself have any -- I'm jumping

24    forward a little bit now, but -- well, I may be jumping forward.  I'll ask

25    you the question, and then you can tell me if I am or not.

Page 31

 1             In -- in September of 1993, did you have any personal contact

 2    yourself with Jusuf Jasarevic, who was the head of military security

 3    within the Bosnian army?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Did you send any reports or communications to Jusuf Jasarevic

 6    yourself during that time?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   And indeed, you had no obligation to send any such reports to

 9    Mr. Jasarevic, because he was head of military security and you were in

10    the -- in the MUP; is that correct?

11        A.   That is correct.

12        Q.   Thanks.  And just one other background matter which I forgot to

13    ask you earlier:  You personally were not included in any way in any

14    discussions about military operations that were to take place early in the

15    September 1993; is that correct?

16        A.   That is correct, yes.

17        Q.   Okay.  Thanks.  Very well.  Now, I want to turn to -- we'll come

18    back to your investigations here.  You've indicated that you -- you made

19    contact with Mr. Kurt, and then at 1500 hours it's the fact that

20    Salihamidzic left.  Could I ask you the question:  What vehicle did

21    Salihamidzic and Kurt leave in?  Was it a military vehicle or a -- a MUP

22    vehicle?

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   You've indicated that to the best of your recollection that they

25    returned two to three hours later.  But can I suggest to you that they

Page 32

 1    returned at approximately 6.00, maybe a tiny bit before 6.00?  Do you

 2    agree with that?

 3        A.   It's possible.

 4        Q.   Do you recall whether it was dark or getting dark at the time

 5    when they returned?

 6        A.   It was still visible.

 7        Q.   Very well.  It may be stretching your memory.  I'm just asking

 8    you to extend your memory the best you can.  Had it started to get dark at

 9    that point, or was it still fully daylight, or can you simply not remember

10    that much detail?

11        A.   I can't remember everything, but since it was still September,

12    it's possible that it was still visible at around 1800 hours.

13        Q.   Do you recall whether or not when Mr. Salihamidzic and Mr. Kurt

14    came back they had with them any elderly people who they'd picked up on

15    the road?

16        A.   My deputy came to see me, so I don't know who they came back

17    with.

18        Q.   Well, I take it you didn't see them arrive back.  Is that the

19    situation?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, --

22             JUDGE LIU:  Well, is it the appropriate time for us to take a

23    break?

24             MR. MORRISSEY:  Certainly, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll have a break and we'll resume at 4.00.

Page 33

 1                          --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.

 2                          --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

 3             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

 4             MR. MORRISSEY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Thank you again, Mr. Zebic.

 6             Before we broke, I was asking you questions about what happened

 7    before Mr. Salihamidzic left, and now I want to turn to what happened when

 8    he came back.  He came back, and you had a discussion with him.  And could

 9    I ask you, did -- I'm not suggesting that you should have done this, but

10    can I just ask:  Did you in fact take any notes of the conversation that

11    you had with him on that occasion, when he arrived back?

12             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, I'm sorry, both Mr. Halilovic and I

13    couldn't hear the answers there.

14             I apologise, Mr. Zebic.

15             I should indicate, if it's a technological problem, I can hear my

16    own voice as barristers can.  I'll attempt to proceed.

17        Q.   Are you able to hear me, Mr. Zebic?

18        A.   I can hear you now, but I couldn't hear you before.

19        Q.   Okay.  Okay.  I'll just ask you the question again that I had.

20    Did you -- did you take any notes of that discussion that you had with

21    Mr. Salihamidzic when he first arrived back or not?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Okay.  Anyway, you've read the report that Mr. Salihamidzic

24    ultimately wrote.  And I take it what he told you when he came back was

25    essentially the information that he had up to that point; is that right?

Page 34

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   So he told you about going to the village and meeting with

 3    Mr. Solakovic; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And he told you about the rumours that he heard?  Is that

 6    correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And he told you about going to look to see if he could see a body

 9    down by the Neretva River which was rumoured to be there but that he

10    hadn't been able to see any such body; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   He told you that while he was doing that, Sead Kurt had been

13    approached - and this is all on the afternoon of the 9th of September -

14    Sead Kurt had been approached by Ramiz Delalic, Celo, and spoken to while

15    up on the bridge; is that correct?

16        A.   Next to the bridge, yes.

17        Q.   Yes.  Pardon me.  I accept the correction.

18             And did he tell you whether or not he had encountered any

19    civilians on the way back to Jablanica and given any such civilians a ride

20    or any assistance?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   All right.  Well, now, I just want to ask you some questions

23    about your state of knowledge at that stage.  Once you've spoken to

24    Salihamidzic, you knew that there had probably -- very probably been

25    murders committed in -- in Grabovica; is that correct?

Page 35

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you knew it was necessary to take measures to evacuate some

 3    civilians; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You knew that a local commander there -- well, sorry, I shouldn't

 6    say "local" because he was from Sarajevo -- but a particular commander in

 7    Grabovica, namely, Adnan Solakovic, was expressing fears for the safety of

 8    his own troops; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, that's what my deputy told me.

10        Q.   Oh, yes, I understand you -- you're going on what you were told

11    here by your deputy.  Correct?

12        A.   Yes.  Yes.

13        Q.   Okay.  But your information was also that Ramiz Delalic, Celo,

14    was present in Grabovica and that he was not cooperative or friendly to

15    the police when he met -- to the military police when he met them next to

16    the bridge; is that correct?

17        A.   Judging by his reactions, that was my conclusion.

18        Q.   I understand.  And it was your opinion at that stage that it

19    would be dangerous to go onto the terrain in Grabovica; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   But even so, you realised that there still had to be an effort

22    made to -- to evacuate civilians, and you began to take steps to do that;

23    is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And in -- in doing that, you made contact with the leader of the

Page 36

 1    Zulfikar unit, Zulfikar Alispago; is that correct?

 2        A.   I informed the War Presidency first.

 3        Q.   Yes, I understand.  I'll come to the War Presidency discussion in

 4    a minute.  I just want to deal with the -- the contacts with -- with

 5    Zulfikar Alispago.  Because he's called "Zuka" in many people's language,

 6    that's how I -- did you know him as "Zuka"?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Very well.  And if I refer to him as "Zuka," you'll know who

 9    we're talking about?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  Was it you personally who contacted Zuka in order to help

12    evacuate the civilians, or did you -- was that done by Salihamidzic or --

13    or another person?

14        A.   I think it was Salihamidzic with the son-in-law of one of the

15    civilians from Grabovica.

16        Q.   Yes.  And again, jumping forward slightly, is it your

17    understanding that that son-in-law ultimately drove to Grabovica with Zuka

18    and rescued two Croat civilians from the right bank a bit later that

19    evening?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Yes.  Very well.  Now, was an operation -- I shouldn't -- well,

22    I've used the term "operation."  Perhaps I shouldn't in the context of

23    this case.  I'll -- were arrangements then made to get vehicles to drive

24    down to -- to Grabovica and bring away elderly Croat civilians who were

25    there?

Page 37

 1        A.   Yes.  But this was done because the War Presidency organised it

 2    as well as other civilian bodies in Grabovica.

 3        Q.   But it still was the fact, wasn't it, that Zulfikar Alispago

 4    cooperated in that venture and assisted with the removal of elderly Croats

 5    from Grabovica?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, as a policeman who's been in -- in action for a

 8    number of years, would you agree with this proposition:  That any

 9    investigation of a crime starts off with acquiring information about that

10    crime?  Is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And the fact is at this stage you had some information but not

13    enough for you to be comfortable about what had happened in Grabovica; is

14    that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   But you also knew that it may well happen that the SVB, the

17    military security service, would be involved in investigating this --

18    these killings because it could be that military persons were among the

19    killers, and that was your state of mind even from the very beginning; is

20    that correct?

21        A.   Yes, it was in their jurisdiction.

22        Q.   Yes.  Now, we've -- did you ever encounter -- would you just

23    excuse me a moment, Mr. Zebic.

24             MR. MORRISSEY:  Would Your Honours just excuse me.

25                            [Defence counsel confer]

Page 38

 1             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, I just want to put something from a

 2    couple of witnesses whose names I think -- identities may have been

 3    suppressed.  Could we go into the private session, please.

 4             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

 5            [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8        Q.   Sorry, just -- the reason we've done that:  I just want to put a

 9    couple of persons' names to you.  Do you know a woman from the left bank

10    of -- of Grabovica called Katica Miletic?

11        A.   No.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 39

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                          [Open session]

 7             MR. MORRISSEY:  Thank you -- sorry.

 8             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

 9             MR. SACHDEVA:  Your Honour, perhaps Ms. Miletic -- was not

10    actually protected.  Perhaps this part can be placed into open session.

11             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll lift that part.

12             You may proceed, Mr. Morrissey.

13             MR. MORRISSEY:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you.

14        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Zebic, and I suppose -- at that time, you were

15    aware of the potential bad feeling of newly arrived refugees towards the

16    local Croat population in the municipality of -- of Jablanica generally

17    speaking; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And with respect to the killings that -- that you were now

20    hearing about for the first time, you had to deal with the operative

21    possibility that some of these refugees might have played a part in the

22    killings; is that correct?

23        A.   No.  No, I didn't think any of the refugees could have done it.

24    It didn't occur to me at that time.

25        Q.   Did it occur to you at a later time that perhaps some such

Page 40

 1    refugees may have been involved in the killings?

 2        A.   I had absolutely no indications to suggest that.

 3        Q.   No.  But -- no, I understand your position is that it was a

 4    military police investigation in any event, but although you didn't have

 5    any specific indications, wasn't it something that you turned your mind to

 6    as an experienced policeman, bearing in mind the possible ill will between

 7    the new arrivals and the existing Croat population?

 8        A.   I thought it could be among the population.  There was a certain

 9    degree of ill will when those civilians arrived in Jablanica.

10        Q.   Yes.  But I take it from your answers that -- well, you tell me

11    if I'm right about this, but your -- your previous experience of Grabovica

12    was that it was pretty peaceful; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   In fact, the situation in Grabovica was significantly more

15    peaceful than the situation in Jablanica, as far as relations between

16    Croats and Muslims went; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Very well.  Now, did you have any personal involvement in finding

19    a place for these -- for the rescued Croatians at Jablanica, or did that

20    job fall to somebody else to arrange?

21        A.   It was the job to  -- of the Red Cross in Jablanica and the Civil

22    Defence Staff.

23        Q.   I understand, therefore, that it fell outside of your direct

24    function.  Could you just exercise your memory and see whether you

25    remember actually seeing any of these people arriving in -- in Jablanica

Page 41

 1    around that time.

 2        A.   I can't.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  Now, I'd moved ahead of something there, but

 4    you mentioned that you -- that you went to the War Presidency.  I take it

 5    the order of things was this:  That you arrived -- that Salihamidzic came

 6    back somewhere approaching 1800 hours; that you then spoke to him for a

 7    period of time; and that you then went to the War Presidency.  And what I

 8    want to ask you is:  How long did you speak to Mr. Salihamidzic?  Was it

 9    an hour?  Was it three-quarters of an hour?  Was it half an hour?  Or what

10    figure, to the best of your memory, did you spend speaking to him?

11        A.   It was a brief conversation.  He just told me about what had

12    happened, from what he had heard, and he said that in agreement with

13    Mr. Solakovic the civilians should be pulled out of Grabovica.  It took no

14    more than ten minutes, and after that I went to the Presidency with my

15    deputy to inform them.

16        Q.   Okay.  And how long did it take you to get over to the

17    Presidency?  Was that a one-minute walk or a ten-minute walk?

18        A.   Three minutes' walk.

19        Q.   And I take it you had the opportunity to speak fairly swiftly to

20    Dr. Cibo; is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you spent some time explaining to him what had happened; is

23    that correct?  Or perhaps you could tell us, how long did you spend

24    telling him what happened?

25        A.   Maybe the same time it took me to discuss it with my own deputy.

Page 42

 1        Q.   Yes.  Look, I understand these are estimates, but -- now, as soon

 2    as Mr. Salihamidzic came back, you knew that it was a matter of

 3    significant urgency to deal with the -- with the refugee situation.  Was a

 4    contact made with Zulfikar Alispago before you spoke to Dr. Cibo or

 5    afterwards?  Or both?

 6        A.   I failed to mention that it was my deputy who contacted

 7    Mr. Alispago.

 8        Q.   Yes, okay.  Well, thank you for clarifying that.  But just in

 9    terms of the visit to Dr. Cibo, did -- was contact made with Zulfikar

10    before you went -- before you spoke to Cibo or after you spoke to Cibo or

11    both before and after?

12        A.   I never had any contact with Mr. Alispago.

13        Q.   No, no, but when your deputy Salihamidzic made contact with Zuka,

14    did he do that before your meeting with Cibo or after it or both, before

15    and after?

16        A.   I think it happened this way:  I'm not speaking with absolute

17    certainty, but Mr. Salihamidzic contacted the brother-in-law -- the

18    son-in-law of those two elderly people from Grabovica, and then he asked

19    Mr. Alispago to save, to rescue the parents of his wife from Grabovica.

20    Maybe it wasn't even my deputy who talked to Alispago.  Maybe it was the

21    son-in-law of those civilians in Grabovica.

22        Q.   Well, it may be that you're correct about that, and obviously

23    there was a contact between this civilian and Zulfikar Alispago.  But I

24    take it that there -- I mean, there must have been - and I put to you

25    there that is there was a contact directly between yourself, either you or

Page 43

 1    your deputy, on the one hand, and Alispago, on the other hand, with the

 2    purpose of arranging the -- the evacuation.  Do you agree with that?

 3        A.   Yes.  So I take it -- I've been -- I've been showering you with

 4    questions on this topic, I know.  But is the position this:  You really

 5    can't recall precisely when it was that contact occurred between the

 6    police, on the one hand, and Zulfikar Alispago, on the other hand,

 7    relative to the meeting with Dr. Cibo?  Is that a fair comment?  You just

 8    can't quite remember what the order of it was?

 9        A.   I can't recall.  That's true.

10        Q.   Okay.  Putting all these things together, if the -- if the -- if

11    Salihamidzic came back at around 6.00 and if the time periods are as

12    you've described, what you'd say is, I take it, that contact was made by

13    Dr. Cibo at the War Presidency in that phone call you described to the IKM

14    at approximately half past 6.00 or maybe a bit before that time.  Is that

15    accurate?

16        A.   It's possible.

17        Q.   Yes.  Just in terms of the phone call made by Dr. Cibo, can you

18    recall - tell us if you can recall - whether it was dark or light outside

19    at the time when that call was made.

20        A.   I can't remember that.

21        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  Now, the next thing you gave evidence about

22    happening was the arrival of -- of the Minister of the Interior, Mr. Bakir

23    Alispahic.  And I just want to ask you that -- about this.  In the time

24    after you spoke to Dr. Cibo and after he spoke to the IKM, as you've

25    described, you, I take it, were then concerned with matters arising out of

Page 44

 1    this bad news that you'd received; namely, helping the civilians who had

 2    to be rescued.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   It was not only my concern.  That's why I went to the War

 4    Presidency, to inform them about this entire event.

 5        Q.   No, I understand, it had to be a joint effort.  But that was

 6    the -- I mean, that was the thing you were working on in that hour after

 7    you'd been to see Dr. Cibo; is that right?

 8        A.   I was summoned by the War Presidency.  More precisely, and I was

 9    told that a minister had come to my office to see me.

10        Q.   Where were you when you got that summons?

11        A.   At the War Presidency.

12        Q.   I understand.  So the situation is that you were at the War

13    Presidency involving yourself in -- in helping those who had to be

14    evacuated and someone from the War Presidency then gave you the news that

15    a minister had arrived; is that correct?

16        A.   [No interpretation]

17             JUDGE LIU:  Well, I did not get interpretation.

18             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honour, can I indicate I didn't hear any

19    translation of that --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's apology.  I didn't turn on

21    the microphone.

22             Could -- I can repeat the whole answer.

23             The minister was on his way and the passage was very difficult

24    through the mountains.

25             MR. MORRISSEY:

Page 45

 1        Q.   What time were you told that the minister was on his way?  What

 2    time did that piece of news reach you?

 3        A.   It could have been around 7.00 p.m., maybe past 7.00.

 4        Q.   Very well.  And who was it who told you that piece of news?

 5        A.   The clerk on duty at the police station.

 6        Q.   Very well.  And did that clerk on duty telephone you while you

 7    were at the War Presidency to give you that information?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Very well.  And did the intended route of Minister Alispahic take

10    him through the village of Grabovica or not?

11        A.   No.  He was not able to go through Grabovica.  In order to reach

12    Jablanica, he had to cross the mountain around Jablanica.  He had to go

13    through Glogosnica and from there, there was transportation available to

14    go to Jablanica.

15        Q.   I understand.  And where was it proposed that you would meet the

16    minister?

17        A.   At the public security station.

18        Q.   Was it expressed to you that the minister was already aware of

19    the killings at Grabovica or not?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Why was he coming to see you?

22        A.   He decided so.  He's senior in rank.  It was up to him to decide.

23        Q.   Well, I understand he had the competence to make that decision,

24    but my question is:  To your knowledge, why did he make that decision?

25    Why did he come to Jablanica?

Page 46

 1        A.   He had to go through Jablanica in order to return to Sarajevo.

 2    He was on his way back to Mostar, so he had to pass through Jablanica

 3    anyway to go to Sarajevo.

 4        Q.   Was he accompanied by any of the Laste Unit on this occasion?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   Did he tell you at that time whether or not Sefer Halilovic was

 7    under surveillance by members of the MUP?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Did he tell you whether Sefer Halilovic's telephone calls were

10    being intercepted by the MUP?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Did he tell you whether there were operative measures of any sort

13    in place by the MUP against Sefer Halilovic?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   When you spoke to him, did he have any familiarity with these

16    killings, as far as you could see, or was it you who broke the news to him

17    about what had happened?

18        A.   I think I was the first to tell him.

19        Q.   Very well.  And how long did it take you to explain what you

20    knew?

21        A.   Perhaps ten minutes.

22        Q.   Very well.  And after that, you've indicated that -- that you

23    arranged a telephone call to be placed from your institution over to

24    the -- to the IKM; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 47

 1        Q.   So did this call take place from the War Presidency or from the

 2    police station to the IKM?

 3        A.   From the public security station.

 4        Q.   And I just have to ask you this question, Mr. Zebic:  You

 5    indicated in evidence here that you'd -- you hadn't yourself spoken to

 6    Halilovic or had any contact with Halilovic, and my question is:  Have you

 7    ever told anyone that you did speak to Sefer Halilovic in this time?

 8        A.   Not that I remember.

 9        Q.   Now, this telephone conversation that you've given evidence about

10    you've indicated lasted no more than two to three minutes; is that

11    accurate?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And that phone call, according to your recollection, commenced

14    with Mr. Alispahic saying the word "Sefer"; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And most of the rest of the telephone call, the rest of that two-

17    to three-minute period consisted of Mr. Alispahic relaying down the

18    telephone the news that you'd already told him; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You did not hear the voice on the other end yourself in any way;

21    correct?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   And apart from saying the word "Sefer" when he commenced the

24    phone call, this -- Mr. Alispahic didn't use the word "Sefer" again during

25    that telephone call, did he?

Page 48

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   And after the telephone call, he didn't mention Sefer again by

 3    name but he just told you, I suggest, "You help the military security out

 4    when they investigate"; is that correct?

 5        A.   Sounds about right.

 6        Q.   Very well.  And after that telephone call, did you tell any other

 7    person about this telephone call?  Did you mention it to any other person?

 8        A.   I wrote that down in a document that I drafted and sent to the

 9    ministry several days later.

10        Q.   Did you tell -- the question was though not whether you wrote it

11    down, but did you tell somebody?  And I suppose I'll focus the question

12    this way:  Did you tell Mr. Salihamidzic either that night or the

13    following morning that you had been present at that telephone call?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I understand.  All right.  Can you remember where it was that you

16    told that to Mr. Salihamidzic?  Can you remember where that conversation

17    took place?

18        A.   I can't remember that specific time, but every day and most of

19    the time we talked in my office.

20        Q.   Very well.  Now, I just want to put a couple of propositions

21    about Mr. Alispahic's movements.

22            I put it to you that at that time when he came to Jablanica he

23    expressed to you that he was on his way to Konjic because he had a meeting

24    concerning munitions and -- and in particular a munitions factory the

25    following day with another minister, named Rusmir Mahmutcehajic.

Page 49

 1        A.   Maybe he did continue his trip.

 2        Q.   Yes.  But what I'm asking you is did -- well, I didn't ask you

 3    this before.  I'll now ask you it.  Did he tell you that, that he was

 4    going on to see Rusmir Mahmutcehajic, Sefer Halilovic, Vehbija Karic, and

 5    others in order to discussion munitions and in particular a particular

 6    munitions plant at Konjic?  Did he give you that information?

 7        A.   I don't remember.  I really don't remember.

 8        Q.   That's okay.  Perhaps I could ask you this question.  This might

 9    assist.  Did he tell you he was going to meet Sefer Halilovic the

10    following day in Konjic?

11        A.   I can't recall.

12        Q.   Very well.  All right.  Thank you for that.

13             Now, I want to take you to the following day.  We've now finished

14    with the 9th, the activities on the 9th of September, and we'll move to

15    the 10th of September.  Now, on that day, you believed that everyone who

16    needed to be evacuated had already been evacuated.  Is that accurate?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And your state of mind was that the army, and in particular the

19    SVB, was going to investigate what had happened in Grabovica; is that

20    correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And I use that term very generally, the term "what had happened,"

23    because at that stage it just wasn't known the full magnitude of what had

24    happened; is that correct?

25        A.   It is.

Page 50

 1        Q.   Yes.  And you knew, because -- well, for a number of reasons --

 2    I'll put a couple of propositions to you.  You knew you were obliged to

 3    offer assistance to the army -- to the SVB, the army security, in their

 4    investigation because your minister, Bakir Alispahic, had told you so the

 5    night before; is that correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And you also knew that taking a purely theoretical view of this,

 8    a purely legal and theoretical view, you were obliged in any event to take

 9    steps because civilians were among the victims; is that correct?

10        A.   It is.

11        Q.   Can you tell us where Mr. Alispahic slept on the night of the

12    9th of September, incidentally, after his telephone call that you've told

13    us about?

14        A.   I don't know.

15        Q.   There was only one hotel really operating in Jablanica at that

16    time, wasn't there?  Is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Was that -- what was the name of that particular hotel?

19        A.   The Jablanica Hotel.

20        Q.   And at that time, a number of rooms were made available for army

21    and government persons; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   But also some refugees and expelled people were staying there

24    too; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 51

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, I've just -- I'll return to what I was asking about,

 2    and that was that you had acknowledged that you -- you knew that your

 3    organisation was obliged to offer help, and I put to you two bases for

 4    that, namely, the instructions of Alispahic, and your legal obligation,

 5    viewed from a strictly legal point of view.

 6             On the 10th of September, Namik Dzankovic came to your police

 7    station, didn't he?

 8        A.   He did.

 9        Q.   And he was an operative of the SVB, the military security service

10    of the Bosnian army; correct?

11        A.   I think he was.

12        Q.   Yes.  And if there's one thing that's as plain as possible in --

13    in this case, the SVB of the army was fully competent and indeed fully

14    obliged to investigate crimes by army personnel and, in particular, the

15    crimes at Grabovica.  That's correct, isn't it?

16        A.   I think that's right, but I think you should consult military

17    experts.

18        Q.   We have and we will, but I'm just asking for your comment because

19    you were there.

20             All right.  Now, when Mr. Dzankovic came along, he asked for

21    information concerning what had happened in Grabovica and -- and your

22    police station -- or sorry, perhaps I take that back.  He asked for

23    information and your police gave him information, as far as you were able

24    to help; is that correct?

25        A.   I did.

Page 52

 1        Q.   Now, I just want to ask you a question about this.  You've been

 2    involved in a lot of investigations over time of criminal matters; is that

 3    correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   I take it up until -- up until that time though you hadn't been

 6    involved in any way in an investigation of a senseless killing of many

 7    defenceless and elderly Croatian people; is that also correct?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   So that -- all right.  I'll take a step back from that now.

10             As far as the criminal process -- as far as the investigative

11    process goes, when you start an investigation, the first thing you do is

12    to collect as much information as you can; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And every investigation is different and unique because of the

15    facts of each case.  Is that your experience?

16        A.   Certainly.

17        Q.   And each investigation has got to take account of the realities

18    that apply on the terrain; is that correct?

19        A.   Of course.

20        Q.   The textbook and theoretical way to conduct an investigation is

21    that you identify the perpetrators; you arrest those perpetrators; you

22    take statements from the perpetrators, from the witnesses; you gather

23    evidence from the terrain; and you place it all in the hands of military

24    prosecutors -- well, sorry, not necessarily military prosecutors but

25    prosecuting authorities, and you let the criminal procedure take its

Page 53

 1    proper course.  That's how it should be in theory; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   But it's not so easy when you've got members of the 9th Brigade

 4    heavily armed and about to go into combat in a major and important

 5    operation on the terrain where the crimes took place; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   But, however, there was one part of the pre-criminal phase that

 8    you could help with, and that was the providing of information.  And you

 9    did help with that part, didn't you?  Because you gave Dzankovic

10    information as and when he asked for it.  Is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And there's another part of the -- and an important part of the

13    pre-criminal phase of the investigation, and that is the taking of

14    statements from witnesses.

15             Now, I just want to ask you about this.  To your knowledge, did

16    your deputy, Mr. Salihamidzic, take a statement from an eyewitness, Ivan

17    Pranjic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And that was a perfectly proper and sensible thing for him to do

20    as an experienced police officer; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   To your knowledge, did Mr. Salihamidzic also take a statement

23    from a hydroelectric worker named Alija Turkic?

24        A.   Yes.  I just want to clarify this.

25        Q.   Certainly.

Page 54

 1        A.   He conducted an interview with them, a talk, and he tried to get

 2    as many facts as possible about what happened, what they heard, what they

 3    knew.  And then he put all that into a report, an official note, which you

 4    have.  This is in the case of both of the civilians.  Just the basic

 5    things were done.  They were not on the site.  They didn't see the

 6    killings.  But their information came from different sources.

 7        Q.   I understand.  But even though they were not on the site and

 8    didn't witness the killings, it was still very important for

 9    Mr. Salihamidzic, as a professional police officer, to approach them

10    and -- and get such information as they were able to give; is that

11    correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   To your knowledge, did the police also speak to a -- an

14    individual named Osman Kovacevic, another person who had an association

15    with the hydroelectric plant?

16        A.   I don't know.

17        Q.   Were you aware of -- just excuse me a moment.  Sorry.  I've

18    got -- I've got some other activities that I want to put to you, but I'll

19    come to those in a moment.  I'll just try to keep this as chronological as

20    I can.

21             To the best of your recollection, were these statements taken by

22    Salihamidzic on the 10th of September?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Very well.  Now, I asked you earlier on about the visit of Namik

25    Dzankovic on the 10th of September.  He visited the police station on

Page 55

 1    several occasions over the following fortnight; is that correct?

 2        A.   I don't know how many times he came.  It's possible.  If you say

 3    that it was several occasions, then it's possible.

 4        Q.   Very well.  And did the police - Mr. Salihamidzic in particular,

 5    but you can tell us if any other police did anything also - did they make

 6    contact with an officer named Semsudin Halebic to assist with the

 7    investigation?

 8        A.   Semsudin Halebic was not a police officer.  He was in the

 9    military, in the 44th Brigade.  I don't know if he held any rank.  I don't

10    think that he did.  He wasn't a security officer.  He worked in the

11    command on some duties, in some service there.  Yes, he did conduct an

12    interview with him, yes.

13        Q.   Okay.  And it was really so -- sorry, just to be -- I understand

14    what you say about that.  It was really for that reason I asked you

15    earlier on about the TO Staff.  And does that -- did Mr. Halebic have any

16    association with the TO, to the best of your recollection?

17        A.   I don't know at that point in time whether he was in the

18    44th Brigade or if he was in the staff headquarters.  I don't know.

19        Q.   Okay.  At all events, what you confirm is that Mr. Salihamidzic

20    spoke to him and interviewed him with respect to this matter; is that

21    correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  Now, remaining on the 10th of September.  I'm going to

24    come to some other interviews or attempted interviews a bit later on.  But

25    on the 10th of September, did Zuka, Zulfikar Alispago, and Edib Saric

Page 56

 1    arrive at the police station and provide certain information to you?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And included in that information that Zulfikar had to

 4    disclose was that he had at some stage earlier observed some bodies during

 5    his time on the terrain in and near Grabovica; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   He also provided you with numbers of persons evacuated from the

 8    village of Grabovica; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And finally, he provided you with another piece of information,

11    that is, that one of his own soldiers had been murdered.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And he was very angry and upset about the murder of one of his

14    own soldiers who was, in fact, an ethnic Croat; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, and angry.

16        Q.   Yes.  And did he tell you that the name of that soldier was Ivica

17    Karlovic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did he tell you whether Ivica Karlovic was a good soldier or not?

20        A.   I don't remember.  I don't remember.

21        Q.   Okay.  And  Zulfikar also told you that he himself had compiled a

22    report to be sent to the General Staff in Sarajevo; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did he ever go so far as to show you that report?

25        A.   No.

Page 57

 1        Q.   Have you ever seen the report?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Incidentally, during the day of the 10th of September, did you

 4    hear -- have any communication back from Minister Alispahic concerning any

 5    decision or any news at all - I withdraw the term "decision" - I'll ask

 6    you the question again.

 7            Did Minister Alispahic contact you during the day of the 10th and

 8    advise you of the outcome of any discussion that he had with Sefer

 9    Halilovic back in Konjic?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Okay.  We're moving slowly through the day of the 10th of

12    September, and I'm grateful to you for keeping concentrating on these

13    matters.

14             Late -- later in the evening on the 10th of September, did you

15    become aware that Zulfikar Alispago had invited Mr. Salihamidzic,

16    Mr. Dzankovic, and Mr. Brankovic to his flat to discuss events in

17    Grabovica?

18        A.   Mr. Dzankovic and Mr. Salihamidzic and Mr. Brankovic were at my

19    office first, and we called him first, and then he invited them to come to

20    him for a talk.

21        Q.   I understand.  And you didn't -- you personally were not at that

22    meeting; is that correct?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   You've seen though the accounts given of that meeting by -- in

25    reports by Mr. Brankovic and by Mr. Salihamidzic; is that correct?

Page 58

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   In this court we've seen also an account from Namik Dzankovic,

 3    but at the time did you see that Dzankovic report as well or not?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   As to those two reports, the report compiled by -- by

 6    Salihamidzic was a report to go to you, as chief of the station; is that

 7    correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   The report compiled by Brankovic was a report to go back to the

10    CSB at Mostar and also to the institution at Konjic; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now, I won't trouble you with their accounts of what

13    happened there, but at all events they told you pretty much straight away

14    what had occurred, because it was quite troubling news, wasn't it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The news that you had from that meeting was that Ramiz Delalic

17    was claiming to have shot one of his own soldiers; is that correct?

18        A.   I don't remember that.

19        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  Well, if it's in the report by -- by Salihamidzic,

20    you'd accept that that was the account given to you on the night; is that

21    correct?

22        A.   If it's in the report, then I would accept it, yes.

23        Q.   All right.  Look, I won't march you through every point that's in

24    that report, but you came to know that there was a real danger that Ramiz

25    Delalic would take his troops and go back to Sarajevo; is that correct?

Page 59

 1        A.   That's correct.  But these are military matters that were of no

 2    interest to me at that point.

 3        Q.   Well, I understand that you -- that it was outside of your

 4    responsibility.  But as a Bosniak, you did have a -- as a member of -- as

 5    a Bosnian citizen, I should say, not as a Bosniak -- as a Bosnian citizen

 6    generally, you were hoping for a good outcome for the military operation

 7    because of the sufferings of the civilians in Mostar; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   But I hear what you say, that you weren't directly involved in

10    the -- in the planning of the combat activities.

11             Very well.  I now move to the -- to the 11th of September.  Now,

12    I suggest to you that the same process that you'd been engaged in before

13    continued; namely, that you gathered information through whatever sources

14    you could about this incident, and you shared that information with the

15    military security people that you understood were -- were involved in

16    investigating it.  Is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did you come to know that there was a rumour or a fear that there

19    was a sniper posted somewhere near the village of Grabovica who posed a

20    possible threat to any investigators?

21        A.   I don't remember that.

22        Q.   Do you recall that on or about on this date that the news came

23    that troops from Grabovica and also some troops from Jablanica were

24    departing for the battlefield down south near to Dreznica and Vrdi?

25        A.   These were military matters, and I really have no information

Page 60

 1    about that.

 2        Q.   No, no, I understand you can't give us any -- any expert or

 3    in-depth comment.  But as far as the investigation into these crimes goes,

 4    you came to know that the troops on the ground from Grabovica were in the

 5    process of moving down to Dreznica; is that correct?

 6        A.   You're asking me about military matters again, which were not of

 7    much interest to me then, because I was a police officer.

 8        Q.   Well, is that your account, that you just had to interest in the

 9    movements of troops from Grabovica, because your role was different?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Very well.  Now, although you were not directly involved in

12    military matters at all, you knew that the troops that were stationed in

13    Grabovica were heavily armed and prepared for combat in the area of

14    Dreznica and Vrdi; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And according to your limited knowledge of these matters, you

17    knew that they were good fighters; is that correct?

18        A.   I didn't know what kind of fighters they were.

19        Q.   In any event, it was obvious to you and it was a matter of

20    significant concern to you that any attempt to arrest -- well, I withdraw

21    that.  Perhaps I should -- I'll take a step back from that.

22             Did you have the name - and I'm talking now about on the 11th of

23    the 9th, or indeed in the days before - did you have the name of a single

24    perpetrator?

25        A.   No.

Page 61

 1        Q.   Just for interest's sake, do you have the name of a single

 2    perpetrator now?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Did you have the name of a person who was said to be a soldier

 5    who was standing nearby when any such thing happened?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   You didn't have any person that you could lawfully arrest at that

 8    point.  That's true, isn't it?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   I'm going to come to the realities of barging into the

11    9th Brigade and seeking to arrest people.  But at this stage in the

12    proceedings, without any identified suspects and without any identified

13    eyewitnesses, to your knowledge, you would not have been entitled to go in

14    and arrest anyone; isn't that accurate?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And leaving aside that question of -- of identified suspects and

17    so on, the fact is it was apparent to you at the time that any attempt to

18    forcibly intervene in the village of Grabovica presented a genuine danger

19    of an armed conflict erupting right there and then; is that correct?

20        A.   Could you please simplify your question.

21        Q.   I'll do my best.  As you sat in your police station in Jablanica,

22    it was apparent to you that if military police or civilian police were

23    sent in to Grabovica to forcibly deal with the situation there, there was

24    a genuine and real prospect of an armed conflict with the units already

25    there; is that correct?

Page 62

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And in terms of the realities of sending an armed force into

 3    Grabovica, as some might be attempting to suggest elsewhere, how did you

 4    get into -- just from your own knowledge, how does one get into the right

 5    bank of Grabovica?  What's the way in?

 6        A.   Are you thinking of the geographical aspect --

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   -- or the security aspect?

 9        Q.   I'm thinking of the geographical aspect.

10        A.   At the entrance to Grabovica, there is a bridge over the

11    Neretva River which larger vehicles could also use to cross, so access was

12    possible to the right bank without any problems, up until the place where

13    there was some military limitations.

14        Q.   Yes, okay.  But although I understand you're not a military man,

15    that iron bridge would have been relatively easy to defend against an

16    attack to cross it, if anyone wanted to defend that iron bridge; is that

17    correct?

18        A.   These are, again, some military matters.  I would not really like

19    to go into that.

20        Q.   Very well.  Well, look, you've told me a number of times.  I'll

21    stop pestering you about it.  Thank you, Mr. -- Mr. Zebic.

22             Okay.  Well, apart from those matters that I've put to you, I've

23    got another one to ask you about, in terms of investigation.  The -- the

24    peacetime situation concerning pathological examination of -- of deceased

25    people, when you were running the civilian police station in peacetime,

Page 63

 1    whereabouts did you used to send a -- a body for a pathologist's

 2    examination?

 3        A.   In peacetimes, this was done at hospital facilities.

 4        Q.   At this stage, was there a pathologist at the hospital in

 5    Jablanica?  And I mean now in September of 1993.

 6        A.   I think that there was no specialist for pathology amongst the

 7    doctors at that time.

 8        Q.   Do you know where the nearest pathologist was?

 9        A.   In Sarajevo, I think.

10        Q.   Would you just explain to the Tribunal how you would have gone

11    about organising the transport of 30 deceased bodies to Sarajevo at that

12    time, if it was up to you to do that.  What would you have done and how

13    would you have got them there?  Or is there a very short answer to that

14    question, and that is, it wasn't feasible?

15        A.   You've given the right answer.  It wasn't feasible.  It wasn't

16    possible at that time.

17        Q.   Thanks very much.  I want to take you on to the 12th of -- of

18    September now.  You indicated that you were told by an officer, Senad

19    Dzino, that he -- sorry, pardon me.  I'll take a step back.

20             On the 12th of -- on the 12th of September, the War Presidency

21    was concerned to find out what was happening, in terms of the

22    investigation; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And speaking from the military side, Senad Dzino, who was the

25    deputy commander of the 44th Brigade, the local Jablanica brigade, gave

Page 64

 1    you some news about that; is that correct?

 2        A.   Not to me but to the War Presidency.

 3        Q.   Yes, I understand.  Very well.  And then you indicated yesterday

 4    that -- that the news he gave was that he understood that Sefer Halilovic

 5    and -- and Vehbija Karic had indicated that the army was going to

 6    investigate this matter; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Senad Dzino, he wasn't an SVB operative, was he?  He wasn't from

 9    the military security.  He was an actual combat commander in the normal

10    line of military commander.  Is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, he was the deputy commander of the 44th Brigade.

12        Q.   Yes.  Very well.  In the following days -- sorry, pardon me.  But

13    the -- but the SVB commander from that -- sorry, the SVB operative from

14    the 44th Brigade was, in fact, a man called Sihirlic Zajko; is that

15    correct?

16        A.   Yes.  Yes.

17        Q.   Okay.  In this trial, we've had tendered into evidence a document

18    emanating from Mr. Eminovic of the 6th Corps SVB which asks -- which is

19    directed to Zajko and to Dzankovic, and I wanted to ask you this question:

20    To your knowledge, Zajko Sihirlic did continue to help Mr. Dzankovic in

21    his tasks in the following week; is that correct?

22        A.   I really don't know.  I assume so, because the colleagues from

23    the service were there.

24        Q.   I understand.  We also have -- have heard evidence from

25    Mr. Eminovic, and he says that he gave certain tasks to the military

Page 65

 1    police in the days following the killings of -- the killings at Grabovica.

 2    Are you able to comment on whether that happened or not, whether --

 3    whether you know about what tasks Eminovic gave to the military police in

 4    that time?

 5        A.   I don't know.  He did not forward a copy of that order to the

 6    police station, no request for cooperation or anything like that.

 7        Q.   I understand that.  And was -- and just in terms of the normal

 8    practice, there was no need for Eminovic to send copies of letters to you,

 9    was there?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   No, I understand.  Okay.  Well, I won't -- I take it this is the

12    case -- I'll ask you a general question.  It might cut short a long list

13    of other questions.  But you can't comment really on what correspondence

14    passed between Eminovic and the local military police or local SVB bodies;

15    is that correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   I won't ask you about them.

18             But there is one other matter I want to ask you about concerning

19    that, and that is Mr. Brankovic.  Now, to your knowledge, Mr. Brankovic

20    was very often in the company of Mr. Dzankovic and was helping him during

21    the fortnight, the two weeks, following the killings at Grabovica; is that

22    correct?

23        A.   I think so.

24        Q.   Those two seemed to have -- I just ask for your comment about

25    this, actually.  But as far as you could see, those two seemed to have

Page 66

 1    quite a good working relationship?

 2        A.   I think they did.

 3        Q.   Yes.  And to your knowledge, Brankovic was a professional and

 4    very thorough officer; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Did Brankovic have access to a vehicle at that time?

 7             Let me ask the question another way:  Did Brankovic sometimes

 8    have access to a vehicle at that time?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   What was the petrol situation applying to the use of petrol for

11    police vehicles?

12        A.   Petrol was in short supply, but whenever we had petrol, we helped

13    him out so that he should be able to go out on his missions.

14        Q.   Yes, I understand that.  And was it a -- was it a day-to-day

15    question whether there was any petrol available to go out on the terrain

16    at that time?

17        A.   I can't remember that it was that dire.

18        Q.   No.  When was it that you would -- can you just explain how --

19    how the petrol situation operated.  Did you have your own petrol dump at

20    the police station?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Where did you go to get the fuel when you needed it?

23        A.   Our main supply was the petrol station.

24        Q.   I see.  And did you have any -- did you, as the police force,

25    have any priority over normal civilians, in terms of access to petrol?

Page 67

 1        A.   We had priority over civilians.  However, the army had priority

 2    over us.

 3        Q.   Yes.  That was my next question, but -- very well.  I understand

 4    that.

 5             And did there have to be a special requisition form to get

 6    petrol, or did you just go there and take your chance?

 7        A.   The supply of petrol that the War Presidency was in charge would

 8    be distributed among the three components:  According to needs, according

 9    to availability, so that everybody would get their share at the petrol

10    station as it was allocated.

11        Q.   Yes.  I think perhaps my questions there were coming from a

12    background of someone from a market economy completely.

13             Was the distribution of petrol regulated from a high level, or

14    was it just market forces at work at the petrol station?

15        A.   I said the War Presidency decided, because the War Presidency was

16    in charge of all the supplies of everything.

17        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I do understand your answer.

18             Okay.  We have heard evidence in this court -- or perhaps I

19    should ask you this:  Throughout this time, when you were making -- when

20    you were doing what you could to help the investigation, to your knowledge

21    did the -- the shells continue to fall on Jablanica from time to time?

22        A.   It's difficult to remember from this distance, but it is a fact

23    that Jablanica was constantly under fire.

24        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  Now, doing the best you can -- I understand

25    what you've said about the military, your -- that you weren't connected to

Page 68

 1    the military operations in any way.  We've heard evidence in this court

 2    from a previous witness that the combat operations commenced on or about

 3    the 13th of September and that there was combat activity pretty much

 4    straight through until about the 20th of September, when some of the

 5    Sarajevo units or all of the Sarajevo units were pulled out and went home.

 6    I want to ask you, first of all:  Did you become aware that there was

 7    combat after the 13th of -- of September on a wide front from Crni Vrh, up

 8    in the north, right down to Vrdi, in the south?

 9        A.   I couldn't obtain that information officially.  I heard it from

10    the news, from the radio, and television and -- and newspapers, ask the

11    news travelled fast among people.

12        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  And apart from that combat activity that you heard

13    about in the way you've just described, did you -- did it come to your

14    attention that the Sarajevo units were passing through Jablanica on their

15    way back to -- back to Sarajevo on or about the 20th of -- of September?

16        A.   Nobody drew my attention to that in particular.  I just knew that

17    they were on their way to Sarajevo, pulling out.

18        Q.   I understand.  And did you actually see any of the trucks driving

19    through Jablanica on their way?

20        A.   Could be.  But I didn't pay attention.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, you've given some information about activities

22    undertaken by police officers and in particular about Mr. Salihamidzic and

23    statements that he took from people.  I just want to ask you now about

24    some operative information that may have come your way and see whether you

25    became aware of these steps.

Page 69

 1             You knew an individual named Dzelmo who you said was from the

 2    military -- I think you said the military police.  But I'll just clarify

 3    that.  You knew Mr. Dzelmo; is that right?

 4        A.   There are several of them.

 5        Q.   Dzenaid Dzelmo is the one I'm talking about.  Do you know him?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   Did you become aware -- now, he's not a -- he's not a civilian

 8    policeman, is he?

 9        A.   You're right.  That's correct.

10        Q.   But nevertheless, in the exchange of information that you had

11    with -- with Namik Dzankovic from time to time and indeed Sead Brankovic,

12    did it come to your knowledge that Delmo -- Dzelmo, I'm sorry, had been to

13    Grabovica and attempted to speak to the citizens and refugees there on the

14    left bank of Grabovica but they had been too scared to give him -- to talk

15    to him or to give any statements?

16        A.   Could be.

17        Q.   Yes.  I understand -- this is sort of -- this is 11 years

18    distance now and some of these details may be hard to recall, but that was

19    certainly part of your knowledge at the time that attempts had been made

20    to speak to the -- the refugees who were living in Grabovica but that

21    those refugees had not cooperated, whatever the reason may be.  Is that

22    correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And I suggest to you that similar information -- similar

25    operative information came to you that Nusret Sahic -- could you please

Page 70

 1    just explain to the Court who Nusret Sahic is?  Or was, more accurately.

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   Did you know -- did you know the man Nusret Sahic who had an

 4    association with military police in Jablanica?

 5        A.   I didn't understand you at first the way you pronounced the name.

 6    You mean Nusret Sahic?  I know him.  He was a Military Police Battalion

 7    commander.

 8        Q.   You must forgive the Australian mispronunciation, Mr. Zebic.  I

 9    apologise for it.  That is the individual I'm talking about.

10             Did you come to know that he, too, had tried to speak to refugees

11    and, in fact, that he had succeeded in speaking to one individual called

12    Muharem, a man called Muharem, who was a Muslim refugee?

13        A.   It's possible that he told me, but I'd forgotten.

14        Q.   Does it ring a bell now -- or does it assist your memory for me

15    to say this name, Muharem?  Do you recall being told about that

16    individual?  Who was said to be a -- a Muslim refugee on the -- living on

17    the left bank after the evacuation of the Croat civilians?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Yes.  Very well.

20             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, I'm just about to move to another

21    topic now.  I'm in the Court's hands.  I, from my own point of view, would

22    be happy if there was a short break, because of pains in the legs, quite

23    frankly.

24             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  And could you tell me how long do you still

25    need?

Page 71

 1             MR. MORRISSEY:  20 minutes.

 2             JUDGE LIU:  20 minutes.  Yes.

 3             Let us take a break, you know.  We'll resume at 6.00.

 4                          --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

 5                          --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

 6             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Morrissey.  Try to finish your

 7    cross-examination in 20 minutes.

 8             MR. MORRISSEY:  I will.

 9             Could the witness please be shown MFI277.

10             Your Honours, I'm hearing the Bosnian.  Just a moment.  I know

11    the problem.

12             Your Honours, it was my problem.  Not anyone else's.  It's now

13    fixed.  Thank you.

14        Q.   Pardon me, Mr. Zebic.  I apologise for all that.

15             Do you have in front of you that order that you gave?  Sorry,

16    when I say "that order," that note that you sent.  I withdraw that.

17        A.   I do.

18        Q.   Very well.  Okay.  Now, the second paragraph is the one I wanted

19    to ask you about here.  In particular, there's a sentence there where --

20    where you say:  "We feel it is necessary that you secure conditions for

21    carrying out complete clearing up of the terrain and performing complete

22    on-site investigation."

23            You then go on to clarify that by saying:  "Or, in other words,

24    establishing necessary facts about the event in which people whose bodies

25    were being buried had been killed."

Page 72

 1             Now, can I just ask you this:  What did you mean by

 2    saying "securing the conditions for carrying out complete clearing up of

 3    the terrain and performing complete on-site investigation"?

 4        A.   This document was written on the 29th September, that is, 20 days

 5    after the event we discussed.  You see it was written - and you see that

 6    from the first paragraph - based on information that the public security

 7    station received from citizens and troops.  We had been informed that

 8    there were still corpses there that hadn't been buried and that the stench

 9    was pervasive, and I thought, therefore, that it was my duty to initiate

10    through the command of the 44th Mountain Brigade some sort of action to

11    try to clarify the incident, at least based on the remaining clues.

12        Q.   Yes.  Well, who were you contemplating would do that inspection

13    once the conditions were secured for doing it?

14        A.   That would be the task of a technical service, such as on the

15    level of the ministry in Sarajevo or the Security Services Centre in

16    Sarajevo, down to our level, such as providing a pathologist to perform

17    post-mortems, et cetera.

18        Q.   So, first of all, in -- in general terms, the persons who were to

19    do the on-site inspection that's mentioned in that report, did you

20    envisage those persons to come from the MUP, from the Ministry of the

21    Interior, or from the military?

22        A.   My letter, as I said, was a repeated urging.  Everything else was

23    pure operative work.

24        Q.   Well, I understand that, and I understand also that you're not

25    giving orders, but I just need to clarify -- I just need to clarify this

Page 73

 1    issue -- sorry, pardon me, Mr. Zebic.  I'm just trying to change what I

 2    can see on the screen.

 3             I need to clarify from you -- I understand what you say about the

 4    letter, but I press you for an answer about this.  You were talking about

 5    an on-site investigation by the Ministry of the Interior, whether at the

 6    Sarajevo level or at -- or including -- no, that question just got mired

 7    down.  I withdraw it.  I'm sorry.

 8             You had in mind Ministry of the Interior investigators there,

 9    didn't you?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, you indicated yesterday that your centre had certain

12    technical resources.  You mentioned cameras and certain testing kits and

13    so on.  But it still remains the fact, doesn't it, that in order to deal

14    with the massacre of a whole village, as it began to appear and as it now

15    begins to appear, you needed more resources than what the relatively small

16    Jablanica police station had available; isn't that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   For this to be -- for a proper on-site investigation to take

19    place, what was needed was support at the highest level from the MUP in

20    Sarajevo to provide pathologists and other crime scene staff and

21    resources; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And quite frankly, Mr. Zebic, you had plenty of other work for

24    your crime scene people to do in the Jablanica municipality at that time;

25    is that correct?

Page 74

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I understand.

 3             MR. MORRISSEY:  Yes.  The last document I want to show you now

 4    is MFI222.

 5        Q.   I'm going to show you now, Mr. Zebic - and this is the last of

 6    the documents that you're to be shown by me in all events - this is the

 7    Brankovic letter which you referred to earlier on that you'd seen and

 8    which you understood he was submitting to superiors in Mostar.

 9             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, would it be possible, please, to go

10    to the second page of the English version of that document, so the

11    following page.

12        Q.   Would you just take the opportunity to look at that document

13    again and -- and just reassure yourself that that is the Brankovic report

14    which --

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, let me -- I have to ask you the questions formally,

17    first of all.

18            Is that the Brankovic report that you referred to in evidence

19    earlier on that was directed to Alica Bilic and to another person called

20    Nedzad Surkovic in Konjic?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now, I -- I understand that in some respects you know what

23    you were told here, but I'm just going to take you through some aspects of

24    this document, if you don't mind.

25             First of all, Brankovic says in the first paragraph that:  "The

Page 75

 1    attitude of the civilian authorities of Jablanica municipality and the

 2    Bosnian army's conduct towards the inhabitants was correct.  They were

 3    given humanitarian aid.  They received medical air.  And except for some

 4    sporadic attacks on Croatian property, no incidents took place which could

 5    have related in the persecution of the inhabitants or which could have

 6    caused them to leave.  As far as we knew, 33 Croatians lived in the

 7    village."

 8             Now, as far as you knew, that information was perfectly accurate;

 9    correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Sorry, just excuse me for one moment, please.  I'm sorry,

12    Mr. Zebic.

13                            [Defence counsel confer]

14             MR. MORRISSEY:

15        Q.   Okay.  I just want to be sure that we've got the right document

16    in front of you there.  Could I just ask you, Mr. Zebic:  The document in

17    front of you, does it end with a paragraph saying that:  "On the 11th of

18    September, 1993, the Sefer Halilovic, the Chief of Staff, appealed to me

19    and to Namik Dzankovic."

20             I just want to make sure that you haven't been given the

21    Salihamidzic report by mistake.

22             MR. MORRISSEY:  And there's no criticism of the court staff, but

23    I just know that when we provided this document we did so in a way that

24    was just a little bit difficult to navigate.

25        Q.   Would you mind -- do you have in front of you the last page of

Page 76

 1    that document?  You'll have to -- if you need it to be scrolled, just say

 2    so, and the court staff will do that for you.

 3        A.   I have the first page in front of me.

 4             I still have the first page.

 5             MR. MORRISSEY:  Could it be possible for the witness to have the

 6    second page of the document, please.

 7        A.   You're right.  This is the report -- or rather, the official note

 8    by Mr. Salihamidzic.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10                            [Defence counsel confer]

11        A.   It's all right now.  That's fine.

12        Q.   Okay.  Do you now have the -- the Brankovic report in front of

13    you?

14        A.   Yes, the first page.

15        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Yes.  Excellent.

16             Very well.  Okay.  I'll just continue with that now.  Does it --

17    does the document -- well, sorry, the document goes on to say that -- the

18    document goes on to give certain details of the visit of your deputy,

19    Salihamidzic.  And then it gives the account that "When the deputy chief

20    of the Jablanica police station and leader" -- I'm reading now from the

21    bottom of the -- the second paragraph.

22             "When the deputy chief of the Jablanica police station and leader

23    of the Jablanica military police company arrived at the spot where Marinko

24    Maric's body was to be -- was supposed to be, Ramiz Delalic, also known as

25    Celo, approached them, and then asked 'Have you found anything?  While

Page 77

 1    you're busy searching for them, look what they're doing to us.' Probably

 2    referring to the detainees of the Dretelj camp who were in the village of

 3    Grabovica on the left bank of the River Neretva."

 4             Now, does that account given by Brankovic in this letter, is that

 5    the same account that you were given by Salihamidzic when he came back on

 6    the actual day that he made that village -- visit to the village?

 7        A.   Yes, that's the same description.

 8        Q.   And finally, did this report contain a reference to "the Karic

 9    story," namely --

10             MR. MORRISSEY:  Now, could the witness be shown the second page,

11    please.  And I'm also on the second page now.

12        Q.   You may find this a little  difficult to -- to see, and we may

13    have to focus in some way.  I'm -- I just want to take you to a part here

14    though about Karic.

15             This report says that "Ramiz Delalic" -- this is the Brankovic

16    report, it says:  "Ramiz Delalic, also known as Celo, came in.  He was

17    obviously excited.  He was accompanied by his deputy whose name was Malco.

18    He said that he had just executed one of his soldiers and threatened to

19    withdraw his units back to Sarajevo and said that he did not care about

20    Mostar.  He cursed Minister Bakir Alispahic and his Laste Unit and said

21    that the MUP members were masquerading like dummies, that they were no

22    good at fighters and that they should be sent to Mostar.  He said that he

23    had asked Vehbija Karic what he should do if the Croats refused to let

24    them move into the houses, to which Vehbija Karic allegedly

25    responded, 'Kill them and throw them into the lake," and that his men had

Page 78

 1    understood this literally and that as a result the crime had been

 2    committed."

 3             Now, is that account that we find in Brankovic's report here the

 4    same thing that you were told by Salihamidzic when he came back from the

 5    meeting -- let me just ask that question again.  I've got two people

 6    confused.

 7             Is that report that I've just read out to you there from

 8    Brankovic, is that the same thing that Brankovic told you when they came

 9    back from the flat having supposedly seen Ramiz Delalic, Celo, and had

10    that conversation?

11        A.   My deputy told me that when they came back.  You were asking

12    whether Mr. Brankovic told me.  My deputy told me that.

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Okay.  I understand.  When

14    your deputy told you that, was Mr. Brankovic present or not?

15        A.   Mr. Brankovic was together with my deputy at Mr. Alispago's when

16    this happened and when this was said.

17        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  Very well.  And Brankovic finally says that:  "On

18    the 11th of September, 1993 Sefer Halilovic, the Chief of Staff, appealed

19    to me and Namik Dzankovic.  He insisted that an investigation be conducted

20    to establish the facts.  He said that he never had nor ever would condone

21    the crimes committed."

22             Now, this is what Brankovic put in the report that you saw.  Did

23    Brankovic tell you about that before you saw this report?  Did he tell you

24    what Sefer Halilovic's position was before you saw this report?

25        A.   Yes, he did.  What's written here confirms what he actually told

Page 79

 1    me.

 2        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  All right.  Are you able to recall -- although the

 3    date here says the 11th of September, 1993, I'd ask you to just exercise

 4    an independent memory, if you can, about that.  Are you able to recall,

 5    when it was that Brankovic passed this information on to you, or is it too

 6    long ago to remember?

 7        A.   I really cannot remember.

 8        Q.   Can you remember where you were when he passed that information

 9    on to you?

10        A.   In my office in the public security station.

11        Q.   I understand.  Okay.  And -- well, you've already indicated your

12    view of his professionalism.

13             Okay.  There's just --

14             MR. MORRISSEY:  Well, Your Honours, I -- this document has been

15    tendered, but you'll recall there was some discussion about it because I

16    showed it to witnesses who hadn't seen it before.  They'd heard of it, but

17    they hadn't seen it.  In order to make sure of it, I now seek to complete,

18    so to say, the tendering of this exhibit, MFI222.

19             I apologise, too, to the Prosecution and the Court because we --

20    by an error, we mixed the two documents in together.  Now they've both

21    been fully acknowledged, I just seek to tender it as one exhibit.  We can

22    divide it if we have to, but I'll be guided by the Prosecutors, actually,

23    about that.  If they wish to divide it, actually we can.

24             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

25             MR. SACHDEVA:  There's no objection, Your Honour.

Page 80

 1             JUDGE LIU:  Well, I believe that document was used by you first.

 2    Right?

 3             MR. SACHDEVA:  For this witness, yes.

 4             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

 5             MR. SACHDEVA:  But I understand it was used by the Defence

 6    earlier on.

 7             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

 8             MR. SACHDEVA:  Through another witness, yes.

 9             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  But anyway, we have it admitted into the

10    evidence, and it doesn't matter whose document it is.

11             MR. MORRISSEY:  No, Your Honours.  And -- I must acknowledge that

12    the confusion that arose about it was mine entirely.  I apologise for it.

13                            [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             MR. MORRISSEY:  All right -- I'm sorry.

15        Q.   Mr. Zebic, I promised 20 minutes.  I've gone two minutes over.

16    But I'm just going to ask two minutes of questions now, with -- with the

17    Court's leave, and then I'm finished now.

18             The last series of questions is this, and they concern

19    Mr. Alispahic's arrival in Jablanica.  I have asked you questions about

20    this before, and you've given some answers.

21             When Alispahic arrived, in whose -- who was he in the company of?

22        A.   I said that I talked to him in my office, but I don't know who

23    came with him to Jablanica.

24        Q.   Who was providing security for the Minister of the Interior when

25    he arrived in Jablanica?

Page 81

 1        A.   I don't know.  Probably somebody from Sarajevo.

 2        Q.   Do you know who provided him with a vehicle to get from -- to get

 3    down the hill into Jablanica?

 4        A.   I don't know that either, but it was the practice for us to send

 5    a vehicle from our station to Glogosnica, where we had a reserve station,

 6    and that's where we would bring our associates back from, those who were

 7    coming back from Mostar to Jablanica.

 8        Q.   You've given evidence that you don't know where he stayed.  What

 9    were the options, in terms of accommodation, in Jablanica at that time for

10    a minister -- in fact, for a minister of the high importance and standing

11    of Minister Bakir Alispahic?

12        A.   You yourself said that the hotel was the only place where people

13    could be accommodated, so it's possible that he slept at the hotel.

14        Q.   Was there anyone else apart from yourself at the police station

15    who you'd expect to be notified of where the Minister of the Interior was

16    staying when he came to your town?

17        A.   I don't think so.  Perhaps he told me.  I don't remember.  Maybe

18    at the moment I just cannot remember where that was.

19        Q.   Yes.  And finally, in the event that a minister had to go from

20    Jablanica to Konjic the following day, where would that minister procure a

21    vehicle in Jablanica in order to get from Jablanica to Konjic?  And I've

22    used the word "minister."  What I really mean is:  Where would Bakir

23    Alispahic get a vehicle?

24        A.   It would be the best that it's a vehicle from the public security

25    station, but it's possible that also the army would provide a vehicle for

Page 82

 1    him to Konjic.

 2        Q.   Did you know how relations were between Bakir Alispahic and the

 3    army at that time or not?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Mr. Zebic, thank you for your patience in answering my questions.

 6             MR. MORRISSEY:  That's the end of the cross-examination.

 7             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

 8             Any redirect?

 9             MR. SACHDEVA:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE LIU:  Mr. Sachdeva.

11                            Re-examined by Mr. Sachdeva:

12        Q.   Mr. Zebic, in response to a question by my learned friend - and

13    this is, for my learned friend's benefit, on page 47, line 12 - the

14    question was, and I quote:  "And apart from saying the word 'Sefer' when

15    he commenced the phone call, this -- Mr. Alispahic didn't use the

16    word 'Sefer' again during that conversation, during that telephone call."

17            And then he goes on to say:  "After the telephone call, he didn't

18    mention Sefer again by name, but he just told you, I suggest, you help the

19    military security out when they investigate."  And he asked you if that's

20    correct.  And your answer was:  "Sounds about right."

21             Do you recall that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, yesterday I asked you with respect to that conversation:

24    "When the conversation ended, what did Mr. Alispahic say?"  And you

25    answered to me:  "He said that he had spoken to Mr. Halilovic, that they

Page 83

 1    had agreed -- or rather, they had received a promise that the case would

 2    be investigated.  He gave me oral orders that if any assistance was

 3    required from the Jablanica Public Security Station and the police

 4    service, that we should provide any such assistance to the military

 5    security services."

 6             Do you recall that answer?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   If you can, can you please, for the Court's benefit, explain or

 9    clarify your answer or explain the inconsistency.

10        A.   I think that, in my opinion, there were no inconsistencies.

11    Perhaps the question by the Defence counsel was a little long so I had

12    lost my thread.  I think that's the only thing here.

13             After the conversation was finished, Mr. Bakir told me that he

14    had spoken with Mr. Sefer and that he promised him what I said in my

15    statement, that steps would be taken for the case to be investigated, and

16    after that, if required, we should provide assistance.  This is what I

17    said, so I stand by that part of the statement.

18        Q.   Just to be clear, Mr. Zebic, your answer to me yesterday was, "He

19    had spoken to Mr. Halilovic," and now you say "Sefer."  If you can, can

20    you clarify that, please.

21        A.   In Bosnia and Herzegovina, there's a name -- the first name and

22    the last name.  In this case, the first name is Sefer; the last name is

23    Halilovic.  So in this instance, we are talking about Mr. Sefer Halilovic.

24        Q.   All right.  You were also asked by counsel for the Defence about

25    the availability of a pathologist with respect to any investigation that

Page 84

 1    could have been conducted in Grabovica.  Do you know whether a pathologist

 2    would have been available to come up from Sarajevo to conduct an

 3    investigation at that time?

 4        A.   Many people left Sarajevo, even in the most difficult

 5    circumstances.  And had anyone requested it and organised it and felt it

 6    was necessary, a pathologist would be able to leave Sarajevo too.

 7        Q.   Are you aware whether the ABiH, that is, the Army of

 8    Bosnia-Herzegovina, had any pathologists available to investigate the

 9    murder of civilians at that time?  And if you do know that, where would

10    they be located?

11        A.   I don't know if there were any or not.

12        Q.   You were also asked by counsel for the Defence whether you were

13    aware of -- whether Sefer Halilovic was the subject of surveillance by the

14    Ministry of the Interior or the Ministry of -- by the security service in

15    Sarajevo.  Do you recall that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Would there be any reason for Mr. Alispahic to let you know,

18    chief of police, civilian police in Jablanica, whether there was any

19    surveillance on Mr. Halilovic?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Mr. Morrissey also asked you about the resources you had with

22    respect to any investigation.  Are you aware whether the ABiH had inferior

23    or superior resources compared to your police station to do any

24    investigation of civilian killings?

25             MR. MORRISSEY:  Sorry, I'll just have to intervene.  I didn't ask

Page 85

 1    that question.  The comparative merits of one as against another doesn't

 2    arise out of cross-examining, so it's, in my submission, not something

 3    that can arise in re-examination.

 4             MR. SACHDEVA:  Your Honour --

 5             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

 6             MR. SACHDEVA:  Mr. Morrissey has asked this witness plenty of

 7    questions with respect to the resources or not of the -- of the police

 8    station to conduct an investigation in Grabovica.

 9             JUDGE LIU:  Well, you may ask a direct question without

10    comparison with the army.

11             MR. SACHDEVA:

12        Q.   Do you know whether the ABiH had a -- had resources or not to do

13    any investigation?

14        A.   I don't know.

15        Q.   Mr. Morrissey also asked you about whether you would have been

16    entitled to go into Grabovica and arrest anyone there.  Do you recall

17    being asked that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you as a civilian police officer have the authority to go

20    into Grabovica and arrest military personnel for crimes committed against

21    civilians?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Lastly, Mr. Zebic, you recall being asked about a photograph of

24    Mr. Sefer at the police station in Jablanica; do you recall that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 86

 1        Q.   Who put that photograph up there?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   Do you know who took it down?

 4        A.   I don't know that either.

 5        Q.   Do you know why the photograph was there?

 6        A.   At the start of the aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

 7    name of Mr. Sefer Halilovic was well known to all citizens, especially

 8    those who had joined in the defence of the Republic of Bosnia and

 9    Herzegovina.  He appeared in the media and especially you could hear a lot

10    about him through the military structures as one of the highest military

11    authorities at the time, and many accepted him and understood him to be a

12    commander right from the beginning and that is why some of these

13    photographs appeared.  You could see them not only in offices but also in

14    public places too.

15            So as far as I'm concerned, it was nothing unusual to find such a

16    photograph on the premises of the public security station in Jablanica.

17    Why it was taken down, what the reasons for that were, probably that came

18    about because of the replacing of Mr. Sefer Halilovic from the post that

19    he had held to date.

20        Q.   How long was the photograph up there?

21        A.   I don't know.

22             MR. SACHDEVA:  That's the examination -- re-examination, Your

23    Honour.

24             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

25             Judge El Mahdi.

Page 87

 1             JUDGE EL MAHDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                            Questioned by the Court:

 3             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question to

 4    put to you.  It relates to your testimony when you said that two women

 5    came to see you, two Muslim women.  And these two women told you about the

 6    events that had taken place in Grabovica.  Could you confirm the date of

 7    this, please.

 8        A.   This happened in the morning, on the 9th of September, 1993.

 9             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So it is on the 9th.

10             And you also said that on the same day and following this

11    complaint, what did you do?

12        A.   I still didn't do anything until the information was confirmed by

13    military personnel.  This happened on the same day.  Maybe an hour or two

14    after the visit by these young women.

15             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes.  So you had the feeling

16    that these people must have been from the army, that these people must

17    have been military, and these were responsible for this.  It didn't cross

18    your mind that it could have been just anybody.  It could have been

19    civilians, for instance.

20        A.   No.  Because the young women who originally told us this

21    information said that the original firing was heard in the part where the

22    military units were billeted.

23             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you waited until

24    noon approximately, when the commander of the unit called the Igman Wolves

25    came to see you.  I believe they were called the Igman Wolves.  And it's

Page 88

 1    after that, once he had told you about what had happened, that you started

 2    to do something about it.

 3        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So why did this person turn to

 5    you?  He could have turned to the military authorities or the military.

 6        A.   It is not clear to me to this day why he came to the police

 7    instead of going to the higher military command.

 8             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Because they thought that you

 9    were the people vested with that kind of power.

10        A.   Probably.

11             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Just something else I would like

12    to clarify, please:  In the night of the 9th, you saw Mr. Alispahic, who

13    came to see you.  Where did this meeting take place?  Was it at the police

14    station?

15        A.   Yes, in my office.

16             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But did this -- before this

17    person came to see you, you were in a building where Mr. Cibo had his

18    office; is that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Therefore, you went to the

21    police station to -- to receive Mr. Alispahic so that you could meet him

22    there.

23        A.   [No audible response]

24             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] My last question:  On reading

25    the report by Mr. Brankovic, which contains the following information --

Page 89

 1    it is stated that he was in charge, as well as Mr. Dzankovic, in charge of

 2    conducting the investigations.  Mr. Halilovic had given instructions to

 3    that effect.  And they realised that Mr. Alispahic told you that the

 4    police, if necessary, had to take part in these investigations.  Now,

 5    don't you think -- or do you think that you were the right person to be

 6    conducting these investigations?

 7        A.   None of us asked that a -- an investigation be conducted.

 8             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  Any questions out of Judge's questions?

11             I see none.

12             At this stage, are there any documents to tender?  Yes.

13             MR. SACHDEVA:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's MFI277.

14             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

15             MR. SACHDEVA:  The Prosecution seeks admission of that document.

16             JUDGE LIU:  I believe that's -- the Defence used it; right?  Any

17    objections?

18             MR. MORRISSEY:  None whatsoever.

19             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  It's admitted into the evidence.

20             On the part of Defence, are there documents to tender at this

21    stage?

22             MR. MORRISSEY:  Nothing in addition to what was already done,

23    Your Honour.

24             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

25             Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to

Page 90

 1    give your evidence.  Madam Usher will show you out of the room, and we

 2    wish you a pleasant journey back home.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 4                            [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Re.  Any submissions concerning with the

 6    next witness?

 7             MR. RE:  Yes.  I have an application I wish to make.  Could we

 8    move into private session, please.

 9             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go into the private session, please.

10                            [Private session]

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18                            [Open session]

19                            [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE LIU:  Well, good afternoon -- good evening, Witness.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening.

22             JUDGE LIU:  I'm sorry to keep you waiting for so long.  We only

23    have about ten minutes to go for this evening.  But anyway, would you

24    please make the solemn declaration in accordance with the paper Madam

25    Usher is showing to you.

Page 94

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2    speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  You may sit down, please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                            WITNESS:  AHMED SALIHAMIDZIC

 6                            [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Re.

 8             MR. RE:  Yes.  Could we just move into private session for one

 9    moment, please, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  I believe that you have to ask some questions

11    about his name to be on the record in open session first.  Then we'll go

12    into the private session.

13             MR. RE:  I'll do that.

14                            Examined by Mr. Re:

15        Q.   Your name is Ahmed Salihamidzic?  And you were born on the 24th

16    of July, 1946, and your present occupation is a retired deputy police

17    chief.  You're a pensioner.  Is that correct?

18        A.   Yes., correct.

19             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go into the private session.

20                            [Private session]

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13                            [Open session]

14             MR. RE:

15        Q.   I just want to lead you through some background information,

16    which is probably about as far as we'll get today.

17             From 1974 to 1981, were you a member of the police force in

18    Jablanica and its commander from 1978 to 1981, when you left police work

19    until returning to the Jablanica police station in January 1993?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you hold the post of deposit chief and the chief's assistant

22    when you returned in 1993?

23        A.   My position was deputy head.

24        Q.   And the head, of course, was Mr. Zebic, who has just completed

25    his testimony here; correct?

Page 96

 1        A.   Yes, correct.

 2        Q.   And you, in fact, retired from that position in April 1998.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Well, let's go straight to the 9th of September, 1993.  Were you

 5    working at the Jablanica police station on that day?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Was Mr. Zebic also working on that day?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did Mr. Zebic speak to you about something that had happened, or

10    did you speak to him about something that had happened?

11        A.   Mr. Zebic called me into his office and Saric Edib was there at

12    the time with this deputy.  We exchanged some information on that occasion

13    regarding events in Grabovica.

14        Q.   Do you know someone called Edib Saric?

15        A.   I didn't know him until then.  He had come then to the police

16    station to see the chief.  The chief summoned me, and that's when I met

17    him for the first time, him and his deputy.

18        Q.   You said you exchanged some information on that occasion

19    regarding events in Grabovica.  What was the information about the events

20    in Grabovica?

21        A.   Right.  The chief stated that on that day, the 9th, two girls had

22    come to the police station to report that on the right bank of the Neretva

23    in the settlement of Grabovica there was shooting which was upsetting the

24    civilians, Croat civilians, who inhabited Grabovica.  He suggested that we

25    go to Grabovica to check that information.  Mr. Edib Saric confirmed that.

Page 97

 1    I insisted, in view of the fact that they had said army troops had arrived

 2    in Sarajevo, I insisted that somebody from the military come along,

 3    specifically the military police commander of the 44th Brigade, and

 4    Mr. Saric agreed, and we went together to inspect or to investigate on

 5    site in a police vehicle.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Salihamidzic.

 7             JUDGE LIU:  Well, now is the time for the break.

 8             Witness, as I did to other witnesses in this Tribunal, I have to

 9    warn you that now you are under the oath, so do not talk to anybody about

10    your testimony and do not let anybody talk to you about it.  Do you

11    understand?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

13             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  I hope you have a good rest,

14    and I'll see you tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the same courtroom.

15             The hearing for today is adjourned.

16                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

17                            to be reconvened on Friday, the 18th day of

18                            March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.