1 Tuesday, 22 March 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. This is case number

8 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

11 Good morning, Witness. Are you ready to start?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Morrissey.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Before your cross-examination, could I ask you how

16 long are you going to take for your cross-examination for this witness.

17 The reason I'm asking you about the time is that the Bench has to decide

18 whether we have an extra sitting on Thursday afternoon if we could not

19 finish all the witnesses this week.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, there's two matters to -- in reply.

21 Firstly, as to the cross-examination of Mr. Dzankovic, I should think an

22 hour and a half will complete what I have to ask. It may go slightly

23 longer, but I expect not, frankly. I think it will be an hour and a half.

24 But, however, there is another issue about that. We understand

25 that the -- the next two witnesses listed here, one -- one is a very short

1 witness. The next one is Mr. Hodzic. We just haven't been provided with

2 the notes and the -- you know, the materials that we need in relation to

3 him, so I can't say whether we're ready or not in respect of that witness

4 at this point.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

6 MR. WEINER: Yes. Good morning, Your Honour.

7 Your Honour, we are ready with the next witness that's -- the

8 short witness that's directly after this witness here. We would not be

9 ready for Mr. Hodzic until tomorrow morning -- until tomorrow morning. He

10 came in later than we expected. We met him for the first time yesterday,

11 and we would need today. We would take one day in examination-in-chief,

12 which would be Wednesday. If this Court would like to run an extra

13 session into Thursday afternoon, if cross-examination could be one, even

14 one and a half days, if you had a three-hour afternoon session Thursday

15 afternoon, we could complete Mr. Hodzic.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 Any objections for the extra session on Thursday afternoon?

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, it's -- I don't have any objections

19 to an extra session at all. And that's regardless of whether we would

20 finish. It is for the witness's benefit to finish, if we can. But I

21 should tell you that as responsible counsel, I just couldn't tell you yet

22 whether I'm going to be finished in that time. It -- he's a witness in

23 respect of whom I'm -- I expect, although I haven't been told yet, that --

24 that there may be an attempt to lead certain books into evidence through

25 him. Now, if those books are the subject of cross-examination, he'll

1 definitely go two days and he might go three. If -- if they're not, then

2 it's going to be considerably shorter, frankly. But at the moment, we

3 don't have the list, so I don't -- I don't know, Your Honour.

4 What I'd like is that as soon as I get the relevant materials

5 from the Prosecutor, to have a moment to consider those and then advise

6 the Court straight away, because if we can finish it, then we're very

7 happy to cooperate and we will accommodate the Court. If you wish to sit

8 an extra session, we'll be ready for that and we'll do it. But at the

9 moment, I just don't know what I'm dealing with, frankly, as of yet. I'm

10 ready to meet the witness in other respects. So it's to be hoped that we

11 could complete him in that time. The Prosecution aren't -- it's not a

12 doomed question. But I'd just like to know where I stand first.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 It is in the interests of justice that the Bench should avoid a

15 witness under the oath left for about a week's time, you know, because

16 during that period the witness might go back to his home place. So there

17 might be a danger of contamination of that witness, especially during the

18 middle of his testimony. So we'll try our best to avoid this situation.

19 But anyway, you may proceed with this witness in your

20 cross-examination.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 WITNESS: NAMIK DZANKOVIC [Resumed]

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey: [Continued]

25 Q. Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Dzankovic.

1 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown MFI221.

2 Q. Mr. Dzankovic, they're going to bring up on the screen now a copy

3 of the -- the report that you made, that being the second report to Jusuf

4 Jasarevic, dated the 13th of September. And I'm just going to ask you

5 to -- to recall what you can recall about some specific topics from that

6 report. So I'll just wait till it's -- till you have it.

7 A. The document is on the screen.

8 Q. Okay. Good. Very well. Now, I just have some questions for you

9 as to the sources of information on which you compiled this document. I

10 take it you compiled this document partly based on what you yourself saw

11 and also partly based on what you were told by other people, by way of

12 operative information, whether it's from the civilian police side or

13 from -- from the military side; is that correct?

14 A. Mostly I gathered the information with the help of the gentlemen

15 from the public security station.

16 Q. Yes. And I just wanted to ask you some questions. You received

17 some help in your time in Jablanica from Mr. Brankovic; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. In a -- in about ten minutes, I'm going to turn to

20 Mr. Brankovic and ask you the sort of help that you gave and what you did

21 together. But at the moment I just -- I just have some questions about --

22 about the information here.

23 Now, you've indicated that the -- the very first line: "On the

24 8th of September," that "units from Sarajevo arrived with Commander Ramiz

25 Delalic." Now, was that information that -- well, I take it that was

1 information that you knew yourself. That's not information from the

2 civilian police. Is that correct?

3 A. No. I saw Mr. Delalic personally on one occasion in Zulfikar

4 Alispago's base.

5 Q. Okay. Now, the next paragraph -- you begin the paragraph by

6 saying: "The units were quartered in Croatian houses on the right bank of

7 the river." And I take it that you put that in the report because that's

8 what you saw yourself with your own two eyes; is that correct?

9 A. I did not say that they will, but I wrote down that they already

10 had. As far as I know, they were already there.

11 Q. Yes. No, pardon me. I -- that was my error, not yours. I

12 agree.

13 Now, when you went on in the third -- the next section to talk

14 about the treatment of the local population by the Zulfikar unit and

15 Jablanica military civilian authorities, I take it you relied on

16 information from the police and local authorities in order to put that in

17 your report. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And by the way, you feel free, if -- if a question seems to be

20 ambiguous or misleading, you point that out to me here because otherwise I

21 won't know that I'm asking a bad question.

22 All right. Well, now, there's another section -- I'm not sure

23 whether it's on the first page of your text, but I think it is, and it

24 reads: "In the morning of the 9th of September, the news spread that

25 members" -- it's a bit hard to read, but that "members from Sarajevo had

1 slaughtered the Croatian population. After having been informed of this

2 by two Muslim refugees from Capljina, the chief of the Jablanica SJB, Emin

3 Zebic, contacted Edib Saric, who confirmed that several" - and it's a bit

4 hard to read again - "happened on the right bank of the Neretva, but he

5 did not know the scale of it or the persons who perpetrated it."

6 Now, once again, that information was information that you got

7 from the police themselves; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. Mr. Zebic is not from the military security. He's from the

9 public security service in Jablanica.

10 Q. Yes. And then in the next section, you describe a visit by the

11 Jablanica SJB deputy and the military police commander from Jablanica, and

12 you've indicated what it was that they saw when they got to Grabovica.

13 Now, once again, was that information that you got from the

14 civilian authorities?

15 A. Yes, the civilian police.

16 Q. Yes, I understand. Do you recall Mr. -- a man called

17 Mr. Sead Kurt, who was the military police commander in question?

18 A. I didn't have the opportunity to meet him, no.

19 Q. Okay. Very well. Now, continuing through that document, it's

20 indicated then that -- and this is -- I'm just not sure where it is on the

21 Bosnian document, but there's a reference there -- perhaps you could find

22 it for me. It's probably about 20 lines down below where I was just

23 looking, where there's a reference to Zuka writing a report on the

24 incident. Do you -- just -- if you would just find that section for me,

25 where it says: "Please note that only Zuka could enter these areas

1 without consequences. He wrote a report on the incident and he will

2 forward it to the Sarajevo SVK."

3 Do you have that passage?

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. Okay. Can you explain --

6 A. Just one second, please. Could you please scroll the text down,

7 because it's not on the screen, that part. I have the beginning on my

8 screen, so could you please scroll the text down so that I can try and

9 find that part.

10 Q. I think that's now being done. Would you indicate when you've

11 got the part that you want.

12 A. Could you scroll it up a little bit now because it's too far.

13 I've read it.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can I just ask you about where you got

15 that information. Is that something that the police told you, or is that

16 something that Zuka himself told you?

17 A. No, Zuka told me that, actually. He said it at the meeting when

18 we were all together at his place.

19 Q. What did he tell you about that report that he wrote?

20 A. He said that he just made the report. He wasn't really specific

21 about what he said, and he didn't tell us anything about what he put in

22 the report.

23 Q. I understand. Did Zuka indicate -- you've put in the report here

24 that he -- "He will forward it to the Sarajevo SVK." Did he indicate who

25 at the Sarajevo SVK -- and sorry, perhaps I should take a step

1 back. "SVK" means the General Staff, doesn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Whereas, the security administration, which you were involved in,

4 is the SVB; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the reason I make these qualifications is that we have a lot

7 of these acronyms to deal with in this case, so we just need to clarify.

8 Anyway, what -- what Zulfikar Alispago was telling you is that he

9 was going to send this report to the General Staff in Sarajevo. And what

10 I wanted to ask you: Did he -- did he get specific about who at the

11 General Staff he was going to send it to in Sarajevo?

12 A. If you're thinking whether he mentioned any person specifically

13 or not, no, he did not.

14 Q. Very well. Did he mention what was in the report? Did he tell

15 you what the contents of the report was?

16 A. I've already said that. He wasn't specific.

17 Q. Okay. There are just some details I have to ask you about

18 because of other evidence that's been given in the case, so bear with me.

19 Did he mention whether or not he was including in the report any

20 photographs or films taken by soldiers?

21 A. I'm hearing of that for the first time.

22 Q. Very well. In fact, to your knowledge, was it ever suggested to

23 you during the time when you were investigating this matter -- was it ever

24 suggested to you that any soldiers had taken photographs or videos or

25 films of any sort from the left bank of the Neretva at or around the time

1 of these events? Was that ever suggested or mentioned to you in any way?

2 A. I'm hearing this for the first time from you now.

3 Q. Yes. Okay. When you were speaking to Zuka about these matters

4 at his flat, was this -- I take it this was before Ramiz Delalic and his

5 large deputy, Malco, or his large -- his large companion, Malco, arrived.

6 Is that true?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I see. Because at the time when -- when Ramiz and Malco were

9 present, it's fair to say that the discussion occurred very much between

10 Zuka and Ramiz; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And, in fact, that discussion chiefly focussed upon Ramiz being

13 angry about the investigation and Ramiz proposing to go back to Sarajevo

14 with his troops; is that correct?

15 A. Ramiz was angry, and the gist of the conversation was that he

16 wanted to return his units back to Sarajevo.

17 Q. Yes. And in the course of that display of anger, he manifested

18 a -- an attitude of resentment and anger against Bakir Alispahic and his

19 unit, the Laste unit; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, he was angry because they left Jablanica and went to Mostar

21 without telling anyone about it.

22 Q. Yes. All right. Well, look, I asked you this question

23 yesterday, and I -- look, I won't repeat it. I'm sorry. I won't have

24 another go at it.

25 Okay. Very well. Now, as to that report by Zulfikar Alispago,

1 however, nobody ever provided a copy of that report to you personally; is

2 that correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And shortly after this meeting in the flat, to your knowledge,

5 Zulfikar Alispago departed in the direction of Vrdi to take part in the

6 combat activities himself; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, after the meeting, the next day or the day after --

8 actually, it was about a couple of days after that that all the units and

9 the commanders left the area and went to where the combat operations were

10 being conducted.

11 Q. Yes, I understand. And just in terms of the specific areas to --

12 to which people departed, to your knowledge there were combat operations

13 both to the south and to the north of Jablanica; is that correct? One --

14 one lot of combat operations in the direction of Vrdi, in the south; and

15 the other lot of -- of operations in the general direction of Prozor, in

16 the north? Is that accurate?

17 A. I don't know exactly where the combat activities were, but I

18 heard that the combat activities would be conducted over a wide area, from

19 Prozor to Mostar, in order to stretch out the enemy and weaken their

20 strength in some places and to extend it over a broad area so that there

21 would be some places vulnerable where it would be possible to break the

22 lines. However, I'm not -- I don't know which specific territory or

23 places these were.

24 Q. That's okay. And my questions to you are not really designed to

25 ask you for commentary on the -- on the combat activities. All I wanted

1 to limit it to you at this stage was this: As far as you knew, Zuka went

2 south in the direction of Vrdi with his units.

3 A. As far as I know, he went in that direction together with the

4 units from Sarajevo.

5 Q. Okay. Now, during the time when Ramiz was present in that flat,

6 did you say a single word to Ramiz yourself?

7 A. No.

8 Q. I take it your situation was one of relative -- well, I withdraw

9 that.

10 Did you observe Mr. Salihamidzic, who was sitting with you, also

11 to keep very silent during the time when Ramiz was present?

12 A. Yes, both him and Sejo Brankovic.

13 Q. Yes. And throughout the time he was present at that meeting, the

14 behaviour of Ramiz Delalic appeared to you to be somewhat aggressive and

15 intimidating; is that correct?

16 A. Well, he was angry. I -- I can't say that he threatened anybody

17 amongst us, but it was a fact that he was angry, and this was. Nobody

18 wanted to enter into a conversation with him when he was in that state.

19 Q. So far as you could observe, Zulfikar Alispago was effectively

20 begging him not to take his troops back to Sarajevo; is that correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And Zulfikar was saying to him -- I don't mean in these exact

23 words, but words to the effect, "Look, Ramiz, there's a big crisis in

24 Mostar. There are citizens in trouble. Our army is in trouble down

25 there. The HVO are going to attack. We need you." Is that approximately

1 what was said by -- by Zuka?

2 A. Yes, along those lines. He said, "Don't go because of the people

3 down there who are waiting for us to lift the blockade. They're

4 starving." It was along these lines that he was making comments. And he

5 said that it was necessary for him to help out in the operation.

6 Q. And he told him that the operation would fail if -- Zuka told

7 Ramiz in particular the operation would fail if he persisted with taking

8 the troops back to Sarajevo.

9 A. Yeah, in that sense.

10 Q. And the discussion ended with -- with Ramiz saying that Bakir

11 Alispahic and his Laste unit should go to Mostar, and then he turned with

12 his friend Malco and walked out the door; is that correct?

13 A. He did mention that Bakir Alispahic with the Laste unit should go

14 and lift the blockade of Mostar, but as far as I can recollect, we left

15 the room before Ramiz, so I am not sure. I don't know what the end of the

16 conversation was between Ramiz and Zuka.

17 Q. I understand. Okay. Well, during the time when you were present

18 in that room, what you can say is that Zulfikar Alispago didn't issue any

19 orders to Ramiz but, rather, pleaded with him and begged him to stay; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yeah, that's correct.

22 Q. Okay. I want to keep going now with what you've said in the

23 report, and I just ask you to -- to clarify certain matters in it.

24 Could you move down now to the reference to a situation that --

25 that you learned about of a woman being raped -- or perhaps, sorry, no,

1 before that, we'll get to the question of the murdered Croat. You say in

2 the report: "I was informed that a certain Croat member of the Zulfikar

3 special unit was killed." Now, I've just got a question about that:

4 The -- in the English version that we've got, there's missing text there.

5 Are you able to say what the word after -- the word before the

6 word "Croat" is on the B/C/S copy that you've got?

7 A. I can't read it very well. I can see "I see" -- I don't know if

8 it's a name, because it's in block letters "ICI" - sorry - "ICA." It's a

9 photocopy, and the first couple of letters are missing, have been deleted,

10 so I really can't say.

11 Q. Okay. Well, look, I'll put a name to you and you see -- apart

12 from what's written here, you see if that jogs your memory. Does the name

13 Ivica Kavlovic refresh your memory in any way?

14 A. To be honest, no, because I can't say that I know of him or

15 anything, and the information about the person killed was given to me by

16 Mr. Zuka and on that occasion he also told me the name.

17 Q. I see. Okay. Well, what attitude did Zuka appear to take to the

18 fact that one of his own soldiers had been murdered in relatively brutal

19 circumstances?

20 A. According to what I can conclude on the basis of the conversation

21 we had on the spot, Zuka was basically angry and embittered and he did not

22 approve of what had happened, what had happened to his soldier and to the

23 other civilians.

24 Q. Yes. And to your knowledge, Zulfikar Alispago helped with

25 evacuating civilians from the village; is that correct?

1 A. Yes, that's what I heard, and that he brought two boys to his

2 base and he placed them under the protection of his soldiers.

3 Q. Yes. And I want to -- I'll come to the two boys in just a

4 moment, but in general terms, you -- the police told you that Zuka was

5 cooperating, as far as their efforts were concerned, in dealing with this

6 crisis; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And, in fact, it was Zuka himself who invited you, Brankovic, and

9 Salihamidzic to his flat that very night when this episode with Ramiz took

10 place; is that correct?

11 A. Well, we were sitting at CJB Jablanica and we were discussing

12 what had happened, and then Mr. Zebic suggested, since the phones at

13 Jablanica were working, he suggested that Salihamidzic should get in touch

14 with Mr. Zuka, and he did that. And then he came back later and he

15 said, "Zuka said to go to his flat. He's there, and we can talk."

16 Q. I understand. Okay. Now, when you -- when you heard about the

17 rescue of the two boys, did Zuka tell you that he'd provided security for

18 these boys and, in particular, had provided a guard for these two boys to

19 protect them once he brought them back to his base?

20 A. He said that he took them out of Jablanica and he took them to

21 his base, where they're safe. He didn't say anything specific as to

22 whether he appointed any guards or anything. He said, "They're at my base

23 and they're safe there."

24 Q. Okay. All right. Now, I want to move on to the next issue, and

25 that is the issue of the raped woman.

1 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, this is at the bottom of page 2,

2 the top of page 3 of the English version.

3 Q. If you need the -- the paper to be scrolled down, Mr. Dzankovic,

4 would you just indicate that. But could you just look a couple of lines

5 below the reference to Zuka. You'll see there's a reference to

6 this: "Also a woman was raped and a rape of another woman was attempted

7 on the left bank of the Neretva in the village where the refugees from

8 Capljina are accommodated."

9 Do you have that -- that passage?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. All right. Now, I just want to ask you something about

12 the next part, you said -- you said this: "The service will interview the

13 raped woman and take a statement -- take a written statement from her."

14 Now, I just want to ask you about that. At the stage when you wrote the

15 report, I take it that such a statement had yet to be taken. And what I

16 wanted to ask you about was this: Was the raped woman prepared to give a

17 statement when it came to it?

18 A. As to the statement -- or rather, first of all, the information

19 about the raped woman and the attempted rape was the information that I

20 got from the MUP members.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. And since it was about a civilian, the statement had to be taken

23 by someone from SJB Jablanica.

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. As to whether this was done and whether the lady in question was

1 willing to make a statement or not, I don't know.

2 Q. Very well. The -- when you say that therefore, the reference in

3 the English translation says here, "The service will interview the raped

4 woman." By the words "the service," who did you mean? Did you mean the

5 civilian police?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I understand all right. Now, you then went on to say that --

8 that the Jablanica IKM, civilian authorities, and the MUP organs are aware

9 of this incident. And I just wanted to ask you how you were able to say

10 that the MUP organs were aware of the incident. Is that because the local

11 police station knew about and it because Mr. Brankovic knew about it as

12 well? Is that what the basis for that comment is?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Now, you then went on to say that -- effectively that

15 certain aspects of the investigation were currently impossible. I'll take

16 you to that in detail. You say: "Work on the clarification of this case,

17 gathering of operation -- operative information on the exact number of

18 dead, how they were murdered, and detection of possible perpetrators has

19 been done in cooperation with" and then there's an illegible part. Are

20 you able to say what that word which is at the end of the

21 phrase "detection of possible perpetrators has been done in cooperation

22 with" -- what's the next word there? Can you translate that or tell us

23 what it is?

24 A. I can't I can't see anything. Especially, it's a photocopy.

25 It's totally black there. I can't read it at all.

1 Q. Just excuse me one moment. I'll see if we've got a better

2 original. Just one moment, please.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MR. MORRISSEY:

5 Q. Mr. Dzankovic, I might come back to that because I'll -- I'll try

6 to get a hard copy. It may be that that's easier to read.

7 Anyway, regardless of what's written there, the work of the

8 clarification and of the case and so on was done in cooperation with the

9 civilian authorities; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go on to the next bit. You say that

12 "something on site" - and there's a word that's hard to translate there,

13 and I'll ask you to tell us if you can work it out - "something on site is

14 currently impossible to carry out because of the large number of units in

15 the Grabovica area, the units led by Ramiz Delalic, and fear that giving

16 too much" - sorry - "fear that giving importance to this incident would

17 result in" - gap - "return of the whole unit to Sarajevo, which would

18 directly endanger the planned action on Mostar." Now, I've read that at

19 length. But I'll just ask you about a couple of aspects about it: Were

20 you intending to convey by that report that a site inspection was

21 currently impossible to carry out?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And you then went on to list the reasons why that was

24 impossible to carry out in a summary form; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now, when you were referring to the attitude of units led by

2 Ramiz Delalic, you were referring to a number of factors indicating

3 aggressive and dangerous behaviour by those units; is that correct?

4 A. Not the entire units but the behaviour of those who were the

5 perpetrators and who had we gone through, probably for their own

6 protection and in order to cover up what had happened, would have probably

7 attacked us as well.

8 Q. Well, that's -- thank you. But you've just answered my next

9 series of questions. I mean, your fear was that, among other things, that

10 if you went there to investigate, you may well be the subject of danger

11 yourself from these apparently very dangerous individuals; is that true?

12 A. That's correct. And it was a bit useless for me to go there on

13 my own and try to do something. First of all, I wouldn't have been

14 protected; and secondly, I'm not an expert. So on my own, I wouldn't have

15 been able to achieve anything at all.

16 Q. Was there rumours at the time of a sniper being posted around the

17 area of Grabovica?

18 A. I couldn't say that it was a rumour that there was a sniper

19 there, but there was a rumour that if somebody were to set out down there,

20 that there was a risk of a sniper, if anyone were to go down and try and

21 carry out an investigation.

22 Q. I just want you to move a few lines down to the section where

23 Ramiz Delalic was talking, and you've described the conversation that he

24 had in Zuka's flat, at the bottom of this -- at that -- it's the last

25 sentence in that section. And it says this: "He also said" -- and the

1 "he" that you're talking about clearly is Ramiz Delalic. "He also said

2 that there was real danger of possible open clashes between the" - missing

3 text - "unit members and persons who would carry out the on-site

4 inspection and possibly try to identify and arrest the perpetrators. So

5 part of your problem was that Ramiz Delalic had said investigators who is

6 go there might as well end up in a fight?

7 MR. WEINER: I'd object. That's not listed there. Are you

8 asking or are you indicating it says that there?

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it seems to me that you put the answer in your

10 question.

11 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, what I was putting is -- I put the

12 proposition, which the witness is free to agree with or disagree with: So

13 part of your problem was that Ramiz Delalic had said an investigator who

14 is to go there might well end up in a fight." Now, I -- at the moment I'm

15 simply mystified as to what the objection is. I can put that proposition

16 to him. He can say "no" or "yes." What I've put to him -- and

17 Your Honours, perhaps I -- I just want to make clear about this objection.

18 It seems to be a new tactic here. But, Your Honours, I want to make it

19 clear that I have to as a matter of fairness put to the witness the

20 passages -- direct his attention to those before I ask the question;

21 otherwise, I might be met with an objection that I'm not putting those to

22 him in a fair and reasonable way. That's what I was doing.

23 If the Prosecutor is concerned about the question, the question

24 is the part that's at the very end, and that is the part to which any

25 objection, if there remains an objection, ought to be taken. But that

1 proposition, in my submission, seems, I hope, to be a rather cautiously

2 put one and not an unfair one. Now, if the Prosecutor objects to that

3 last part, then it should be articulated concerning that last part.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

5 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, strictly the objection concerns the

6 form of the question. I am not objecting to him asking about that area.

7 The form of the question. Thank you.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well --

9 MR. WEINER: And for the record, we have objected far less than

10 the Defence have objected in this case, Your Honour. And the record is

11 clear about that.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, that's -- that's quite true.

13 The Defence has had occasion to object many more times than the

14 Prosecutor. It's --

15 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could put your question another way.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: It sounds like that's the best -- the best

17 answer, Your Honour. We will. Okay.

18 Q. Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Dzankovic, I'm going to try again now, and

19 I'll deal with it differently.

20 One of the reasons why you were concerned about -- or one of

21 the -- sorry, perhaps -- I take that back. One of the problems facing any

22 attempt to conduct an on-site investigation was that Ramiz Delalic said

23 that there could be a fight between soldiers in Grabovica and the

24 investigators; is that correct?

25 A. First of all, what you're asking is something that I can't see

1 anywhere. I can't see a reference to the fact that Ramiz said something,

2 but it is a fact that if an investigation team were to go down there,

3 there would have been a conflict. That was my assessment at that time,

4 and I'm -- I still stand by it.

5 Q. Yes. Okay. Well, I just want to be fair to you, Mr. Dzankovic,

6 and make sure that you have the opportunity to see what I base the

7 question on. Do you see a sentence here which says: "Ramiz Delalic said

8 as much. While discussing this incident in Zuka's apartment, the

9 following persons were present at this discussion." And then there's a

10 list. Do you see that section?

11 A. Yes. Yes, I can see that. But you should read it again from the

12 beginning, because if you look at it within context, you can see that it

13 was him announcing that he and his units would leave Jablanica.

14 Q. Yes. I understand. And it's just the -- the sentence following

15 that. Do you see word "Sejo Brankovic" there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. It's the sentence after I'm asking about. I accept your

18 answer. I just don't want you to be under a misapprehension about why I

19 asked.

20 A. Well, see, what it says in the text is whey did say, in fact. My

21 comment is that I expected there to be a conflict. And with respect to

22 what Ramiz Delalic had said, it was about the units going back. And well,

23 the conclusions are correct.

24 Q. Yes. Okay. Now, I just want to move on to the next section now.

25 This is where you say in your report: "The situation in Grabovica is

1 currently under control, which is due to Delalic executing one of his own

2 soldiers after these incidents." Now, what led you to think that Delalic

3 had executed one of his own soldiers after these incidents? In other

4 words, what was your source of information that this had happened?

5 A. That's what he himself said when he came to Zuka's place.

6 Q. Did he say anything about performing a line-up or an identity

7 parade of any sort when he was speaking to Zuka in the flat, or not?

8 A. About an actual line-up, no. He just came in and said, "Why do I

9 need to have to shoot my own soldiers?"

10 Q. Yes. Okay. All right. Now, then in the next paragraph, after a

11 couple of sentences have passed by, you then refer to Mr. Sefer Halilovic.

12 And I just want to ask you about a couple of aspects of this. What you

13 said here is: "The chief of SVK, Mr. Sefer Halilovic, distanced himself

14 from this incident and ordered me personally to gather as much information

15 on the unfortunate incidents through operative work with other SVB

16 members" and then there's a gap. Can you tell me what the word is in that

17 gap, after the word "SVB members."

18 A. I can't see anything. I'm sorry.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, we've just procured a photocopy,

20 and I wonder if that could be given to the witness.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: That might be easier to read.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: It's -- just to confirm, Your Honour, it's

25 DD000255.

1 Q. Just take a moment and find the section I'm looking for. It's in

2 the paragraph before the -- before the six proposals that you set out. It

3 says: "Chief of Staff -- Chief of SVK, Mr. Sefer Halilovic, distanced

4 himself from" --

5 A. "The members of MUP," it says.

6 Q. So what that say -- the English translation here has got a word,

7 "missing text." So we'll just rely on you here. What it says is

8 that: "Sefer Halilovic distanced himself from this incident and ordered

9 me personally to gather as much information on the unfortunate incidents

10 through operative work with other SVB members and" and what do you say

11 come there is? "Members of the MUP"; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you then went on to -- the make certain proposals. And I'm

14 going to come to those proposals in just a moment.

15 Maybe if you keep that document there with you, because I'm just

16 going to go back and clarify a couple of gaps with you that I asked you

17 about earlier on.

18 But I just want to ask you quickly about -- about what you said

19 about Halilovic's -- Sefer Halilovic's order to you. Now, as you

20 understood the situation, Halilovic was your commander by virtue of your

21 membership in the -- in the inspection team of which he was the head and

22 of which you were a mere member with SVB responsibility; is that correct?

23 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'd object to that question. There

24 is -- that's a multiple compound question. There's at least three

25 questions there, maybe four. That's one that should be taken one step at

1 a time.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, it -- it's amenable -- Your Honour,

4 may I just say this. It's amenable of a single answer. But if it would

5 assist the Prosecutor, I've got no difficulty in doing it.

6 Q. Mr. Dzankovic, I've got to ask you this question broken up into

7 multiple parts, and that's what I'm going to do. So is it the fact that

8 you were a member of an inspection team?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is it the fact that Sefer Halilovic was the chief of that

11 inspection team?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it the fact that because of that relationship, Sefer Halilovic

14 was entitled to give you orders and you were bound to obey those orders?

15 Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So, of course, when Sefer Halilovic gave you this order, which

18 you've referred to in your report here, you were bound to obey it and you

19 did obey it; is that correct?

20 A. Yes. Everything that was within my power, I did.

21 Q. Of course. And as a member -- and I'll just -- this is just

22 stepping outside this order for a moment, but this is a matter that may

23 assist the Tribunal as well, and you can explain it. As a member of the

24 SVB, you're aware that SVB members had a dual line of responsibility.

25 They had to -- sorry, first of all, is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. So you had to obey the lawful commands of your superior

3 officer; in this case, Sefer Halilovic. But you also had an obligation to

4 report up the professional line to another commander, that being Jusuf

5 Jasarevic; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. After Sefer Halilovic issued you with the order, which is

8 referred to in this document, to investigate the killings, after that time

9 you did report up the professional line in a perfectly proper way to Jusuf

10 Jasarevic; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And indeed all three of your reports, which you've given

13 evidence about in this court, were directed not to Sefer Halilovic but up

14 the professional line of reporting to Jusuf Jasarevic; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And, in fact, to your understanding -- well, I'll come to that

17 question in a minute. I'll come to that later. I just don't want to lose

18 the thread of this document now. So can we come back now to the document

19 we're talking about. And I'm just asking you some questions about the

20 instructions that you've detailed here that Halilovic gave you.

21 You've -- you've mentioned here that you were ordered to gather

22 as much information on the unfortunate incidents through operative work.

23 And then -- and then it refers to "with other SVB members." Now, I wanted

24 to ask you about that phrase "with other SVB members." At the time when

25 Halilovic gave you this order, did he specify to you who the other SVB

1 members were, or did he just put it in that general way, "work with other

2 SVB members"?

3 A. He didn't say anything specific. He just said "generally with

4 other members."

5 Q. I understand. And then he added to the term "other SVB

6 members," "the MUP."

7 A. Most probably, because Mr. Brankovic was there with me. And when

8 I informed Mr. Sefer that we had been to the Jablanica SJB the night

9 before that and that we had already done some things and that I had

10 already sent out the first report and that Mr. Brankovic was helping me,

11 then Mr. Sefer said, "Great. Then you can continue to work together."

12 Q. Yes. And, in fact, that is what you did.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. I'll come to what you did with Mr. Brankovic a bit later,

15 but I now want to go through the -- the list of proposals that you made.

16 Now, do you have in front of you that list of proposals, of which there

17 appear to be six, although they're not numbered? Do you have that list in

18 front of you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to ask you about each one of these in turn,

21 but could I put to you as a general proposition that of the proposals that

22 you made, there were some that you were capable of -- of attempting

23 yourself and there were some that just lay way outside of your powers to

24 perform on your own; is that correct?

25 A. The majority of things were things that I could not do by myself.

1 Q. Yes. Okay. Well, I'm going to go through each one, and we'll

2 see what could be done and what couldn't be.

3 The first thing that you put on the list was: "To continue

4 gathering operative information." Now, with respect to continuing

5 gathering operative information, there were some things you could do and

6 some you couldn't, I suggest to you. And I'll -- I'll be specific, and

7 then you tell me if that's right. You were able to speak to -- well,

8 perhaps I'll -- I'll ask you some specific questions about that gathering

9 of operative information.

10 First of all, you did take the steps of speaking to the local

11 police and gathering what information you could from them; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You're aware, for example, that Mr. Salihamidzic went and spoke

15 to a number of civilian -- well, actually, I shouldn't use the

16 word "civilian" because I'm not sure what their status is. But Mr.

17 Salihamidzic went and spoke to the -- the two Pranjics, who had been

18 rescued, and that was something you were aware of; is that correct?

19 A. He told me.

20 Q. Yes. And -- and he also -- and this was part of your operative

21 work, to gather that information from him; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Yes. And you were also aware that he spoke to some of the

24 guards, or at least -- a guard -- sorry, I take that back. You're aware

25 that he spoke to a guard from the -- from the hydroelectric plant called

1 Alija Turkic and interviewed him about what he knew or had been told; is

2 that correct?

3 A. That conversation with the people from the power plant is

4 something that I was not informed about.

5 Q. All right. Do you recall an individual by the name of Halebic,

6 Mr. Semsudin Halebic? Now, this is 11 years ago, I know, but I'm putting

7 the person to you as a person who had an association with military

8 security at the local level in Jablanica. Do you recall Mr. Halebic?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I've got a series of names I want to ask you about now. Is it --

11 and I'll just preface my questions about that with this: Do you recall

12 now the names of all of the different people that you met in Jablanica

13 back in -- in September of 1993?

14 A. Of all the people?

15 Q. Perhaps -- look, I'll put the individual names to you and see if

16 you recall them. You don't recall Mr. Halebic.

17 Do you recall a man named Nusret Sahic who was associated with

18 the local military police in Jablanica?

19 A. I met a gentleman in the 6th Corps, if that's him, and I met him

20 in Konjic, but I never saw him or met him in Jablanica.

21 Q. Okay. Do you recall an individual named Zajko Sihirlic, who was

22 associated with the military -- sorry, with the security -- military

23 security service in the 44th Jablanica Brigade?

24 A. No, I don't recall that man.

25 Q. Is it -- these names that I've put to you, is it possible that

1 you met them and you just don't recall it now?

2 A. Perhaps during my stay I met them once and I most probably forgot

3 all about them, but if it was somebody whom I had actually worked together

4 with, I would remember them. I remember people whom I worked with or saw

5 frequently. If I just met a person on one occasion or was introduced to

6 them, then I probably forgot about them.

7 Q. Mr. Dzankovic, there's to be no prying into your personal life in

8 any way here, and I just have to ask you one question: Did you have at

9 that time a -- a family member who was missing who you were concerned

10 about? I mean in -- in this period of -- of early September and perhaps

11 through the period of September. I've just -- I've actually forgotten. I

12 saw a note about it at one point. Was it -- was your mother missing?

13 A. No, she was not listed as a missing person. Her whereabouts were

14 known.

15 Q. Look, I -- yes, I -- it's -- it's not necessary to go into any

16 great detail about this. Was -- was the situation of your mother at that

17 time causing you some concern?

18 A. My father was killed, and for a long time I didn't know where she

19 was, so it's natural that I was concerned about her.

20 Q. Can you just -- my final question about this -- or I've just got

21 a couple of questions about it. When was your concern laid to rest about

22 that?

23 A. Even when I found out, I was still concerned.

24 Q. And just in general terms - I don't need to know the full

25 details - but what was the problem about your mother? Was she unwell and

1 you needed to find her, or what was the general problem?

2 A. My mother was in the camp.

3 Q. And -- yes, my very last question about that: Was that the case

4 during the time when you were -- was that the case throughout September of

5 1993?

6 A. I don't know. I don't know the exact date when she was

7 released.

8 Q. I see. Is that a matter that was a matter of concern to you

9 during the time when you were investigating these killings?

10 A. To tell you the truth, I was resigned at the time. I was

11 resigned to it. My father was gone. I didn't know where she was. I had

12 no family. I was constantly out in the field, while the others were

13 permanently in Sarajevo.

14 Q. Very well. Well, I won't ask you any more questions about that

15 topic, and thank you for answering those questions.

16 Okay. Now, I want to persist with the list of -- of proposals

17 that you made. So the first proposal that you made was "to continue

18 gathering operative information."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The second proposal that you made was "to establish a mixed

21 committee of MUP and SVB members headed by investigative organs to make

22 sure to include doctors and other experts who will carry out exhumation of

23 bodies and establish the causes of death," and then you indicated

24 indications of savagery, cutting out of hearts, and slit throats.

25 Now, I wanted to ask you about this. You saw that it was

1 impossible to -- for you to assemble such an investigative committee in

2 Jablanica and that you needed help and support at the very highest level

3 from Sarajevo; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, it was impossible for me to assemble such a team. We didn't

5 have such personnel in Jablanica, and also I didn't have the powers to

6 issue any orders to effect something like that, and that is why I made a

7 request to my superiors about that.

8 Q. Your hope and your intention was that Jusuf Jasarevic would bring

9 this about; is that correct? That is, at the time when you sent this

10 report off to Jusuf Jasarevic.

11 A. I thought that the people in Sarajevo would take the necessary

12 steps to assist in relation to this case. Who was supposed to do what and

13 in what way, I'm not a military expert, so I can't give you my comment on

14 that. But I was hoping that orders or people would come from Sarajevo to

15 help to shed light on this and to bring the investigation to completion.

16 Q. Okay. Now, -- yes, and I'm not asking you to issue attacks on

17 other people here either, Mr. Dzankovic. That's not the direction of the

18 questions.

19 I want to move on to the third topic, and that is the proposal to

20 interview members of Adnan Solakovic's unit who were quartered in close

21 proximity and must have seen at least part of, if not all of the murders

22 and their perpetrators. "Do this upon the unit's return to Sarajevo in

23 the context of the reasons mentioned in the report."

24 Now, in fact, you yourself did make an effort to inquire of

25 the -- of certain officers in the 2nd Independent Battalion when you went

1 to Grabovica for a visit. And in particular, I'm thinking of your visit

2 to Samir Pezo. But it's the fact, isn't it, that those individuals were

3 simply unwilling to discuss what they'd seen when you asked them; is that

4 correct?

5 Let me ask that question again. It had a clause built into it

6 that's unnecessary. Those individuals were unwilling to discuss anything

7 about the crimes with you when you asked; is that correct?

8 A. My attempt to discuss it came up against a wall.

9 Q. Yes. And the people with whom you attempted to discuss it were

10 indeed the two most senior people in that battalion; namely, Samir Pezo

11 and Adnan Solakovic; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you make no suggestion that these people were happy about

14 what had occurred. In fact, to your opinion, they seemed to be very

15 distressed and sad about what they'd observed, if they'd seen anything at

16 all.

17 Sorry, look, I withdraw that question. I keep building a clause

18 into it. I apologise.

19 These people presented to you as being unhappy and depressed

20 about what had -- what had occurred in the village; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Now, you made the proposition that the Solakovic -- the

23 members of Solakovic's unit should be spoken to back in Sarajevo because

24 you thought that might be a more effective place to interview them, rather

25 than on the terrain at Grabovica; is that correct?

1 A. Of course. The conditions would be better there, and also if

2 they were called in by the chief of the military security service or if

3 they received an order from a higher-up commander to come, then they would

4 come. I myself, being in the position that I was in, was not able to tell

5 or order anybody to come and speak to me. Up in Sarajevo this was

6 something that could be regulated with an order, so that they would have

7 to go and have to talk about the topic. The same thing was done in

8 relation to the Trebevic I operation, where they had to go for the

9 interview and provide the information requested.

10 Q. Okay. But your understanding was that when back in Sarajevo it

11 would be other members of the SVB that would have that task to interview

12 those people; is that correct?

13 A. The whole service was there.

14 Q. Yes. And -- yes, I understand.

15 The next proposal that you had was "To request a report from

16 Zulfikar Alispago, commander of the Zulfikar unit." And you've indicated

17 there that "Zulfikar Alispago, who as he himself says, wrote a report and

18 forwarded it to the Sarajevo SVK."

19 In communicating that particular proposal to Jusuf Jasarevic,

20 what you were telling him was there should be a report sitting in Sarajevo

21 from Zuka and you guys had better go and have a look at it; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes, that was the essence. And if they didn't have it, then they

24 would -- should look for it, to where -- wherever they -- he sent it.

25 Q. Yes. And if they didn't find it, they could also request him to

1 give them another copy; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, they could have contacted Zuka personally and asked him to

3 send a copy to the military security service.

4 Q. Yes. Just to be clear about that, at the time that the report --

5 at the time that you made this proposal, on the 13th of -- of September,

6 to your knowledge Zuka had already departed for the front line with his

7 soldiers to go into action; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, the fifth request was that "It would be appropriate to" --

10 sorry, I would just read it out to you without putting my words in. You

11 proposed that there be a request -- "Request a written report from

12 Commander Ramiz Delalic, also known as Celo, on the events in Grabovica

13 village."

14 Now, that was a proposal that was more realistic to be made --

15 perhaps I -- no, I take that back. I won't put words in your mouth. Did

16 you mean by that proposal that such a request ought to be made of Ramiz

17 Delalic when he returned to Sarajevo?

18 A. I assume that if a team was formed and comes from Sarajevo and it

19 includes all the elements, including logistics support, then you could do

20 all of those things down there. Since the team wasn't formed, all of this

21 could be done in Sarajevo at a later date.

22 Q. Yes, I understand that. Could I just ask you this: Did you --

23 did it occur to you in your thinking at this time that although an

24 inspection team was a very desirable thing, it might turn out that it just

25 wasn't possible and that there would have to be further investigations

1 back in Sarajevo at a later time? Was that a scenario that occurred to

2 you at the time?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

4 MR. WEINER: Objection. He's asking him to speculate. In fact,

5 several speculations. He's asking: Did it occur to your thinking at the

6 time; it might turn out; it just wasn't possible. You're asking for

7 multiple speculation.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, that's absolutely wrong. I'm

9 asking whether the witness adverted to the possibility that the team

10 wouldn't come, and that's what the question, in my submission -- it may be

11 a wit wordy, but it plainly says that and plainly means that. But if the

12 Prosecutor wants the question to be put another way, I've got no

13 difficulty.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, you might ask a very simple question to this

15 witness.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I try to -- I try to.

17 Q. But the question, then, is: Did it occur to you that it might be

18 impossible for such a team to be sent from Sarajevo, given the realities

19 of the war?

20 A. I didn't think about that, really. But it states here

21 clearly: "Request a written report." You could also request the report

22 by packet connection that same day, and you could ask Mr. Ramiz Delalic,

23 Celo, immediately to send a -- a report. You can do that through

24 communications. And nobody had to walk anywhere in order to carry this

25 out.

1 Q. Did you -- did you yourself know whether Ramiz Delalic was a

2 person who replied to requests from the security organs?

3 A. No, he -- he wasn't.

4 Q. Okay. And finally, you made a proposal of applying strict

5 censorship to the media -- I'll read the actual passage: "Apply strict

6 censorship to the media exploitation of facts related to this incident

7 because of the current military and political situation."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, were you referring there to -- when you referred

10 to "military" -- I'll ask you about military and then I'll ask you about

11 political. In terms of the military situation, were you referring there

12 to the fact that there was an upcoming offensive operation which, by the

13 time of the 13th of September, had already commenced?

14 A. Not just that. I was thinking of the whole situation in the army

15 where each moment was used in order to create discord amongst the three

16 ethnic groups who were members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

17 there were people who would use any opportunity. If anything happened -

18 and it's a fact that something happened here - to distort, blow it up, use

19 it - and I thought the exploiting this information was something that you

20 couldn't hide, because the information was already published in the media.

21 In Jablanica, it was published. People knew about it. It was reported

22 about. I asked for censorship simply because I didn't want anyone to use

23 that information and to exploit the information. What I was thinking of

24 was to actually have the information released after an investigation was

25 conducted and proper steps had been taken.

1 Q. Yes. And it appeared to you that this -- having regard to what

2 you said just, it appeared to you that the crimes that took place in

3 Grabovica would have been exploited by extremist elements among all the

4 communities, Serb, Croat, and Bosniak; is that true?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Whereas, to your understanding, it was the policy of the army,

7 and indeed of the Bosnian government, to fight to preserve a multi-ethnic

8 Bosnia using a multi-ethnic army; is that correct?

9 A. That was our aim.

10 Q. And these killings were a total disaster for the Bosnian

11 struggle, as far as you could see; is that correct?

12 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honour. How can he - he is

13 not a historian; he's not a political analyst - answer something like

14 that.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours --

17 JUDGE LIU: Maybe this question is too broad.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I -- I asked it because he was a

19 participating soldier in the army at that time. But if the question is

20 not assisting the Tribunal, I just won't persist with it.

21 Q. Very well. I think you may have answered my next question in

22 advance. I was going to ask you about the political situation, but I take

23 it that what you've just said referred equally to the military and the

24 political situation. Is that the case?

25 A. If you mean what you asked me about to preserve a multi-ethnic --

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. -- democratic Bosnia and Herzegovina, then yes, that's the case.

3 Q. Yes, that was what I was asking you. Thank you. Now, that

4 completes my questions on that document.

5 I just have some questions now about the communications --

6 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry. I'm -- Your Honour, I'm in the Court's

7 hands. I'm just going to move on to another topic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I think it's the right time for us to take a

9 break.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.

11 JUDGE LIU: And we'll resume at 11.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.

16 Q. Mr. Dzankovic, I'm moving into the -- the final session of this

17 cross-examination now, and I just wanted to ask you some questions about

18 the reporting and communications methods that you had available to you.

19 When you issued your three reports that you did to Jusuf Jasarevic,

20 physically speaking, how did those reports get transmitted to Jasarevic in

21 Sarajevo? Were they sent on the paket veza system or some other way?

22 A. The package -- the packet system, yes.

23 Q. All right. Now, we've heard of this from -- in various ways in

24 this case, but would you mind just explaining to the Tribunal, what is the

25 paket veza system and how does it work -- or what was the paket veza

1 system and how did it work.

2 A. As far as I could understand, it's a type of protected

3 communication which is sent through the computer.

4 Q. Is it somewhat similar -- I understand this was back in 1993, but

5 is it somewhat similar to the system of e-mails which exists now in modern

6 telecommunications?

7 A. From what I can tell, yes, it is.

8 Q. Okay. And if things -- I mean, in an ideal situation - I'm not

9 suggesting in the concrete situation you were in - but in an ideal

10 situation, when you sent such a message off from Jablanica to Sarajevo,

11 how long should it take for the actual message to be sent? I'm not

12 talking about how long it takes for somebody to read it or to notice it,

13 but how long electronically did it take for the message to be sent?

14 A. I couldn't tell you exactly the time that it takes. As far as I

15 know, generally, I would submit the message in written form, I would

16 submit the piece of paper which I wrote by hand. This would then be typed

17 into the computer, and it would be sent, as far as I knew, to the

18 communications centre in Sarajevo. There were people there who received

19 such messages or reports. Most probably they sorted them and forwarded

20 them to the administrations or the people to whom they were addressed.

21 That's what I know.

22 As far as the speed and the time that it took for it to arrive at

23 its destination, I really don't know.

24 Q. Okay. Well, I won't ask you for precise times. If -- if you

25 sent a message in the morning, let's just say on a particular morning, not

1 related to this case, but let's say on a particular weekday morning you

2 had -- had you -- provided your written piece of paper to the computer

3 operator and the operator then sent that message. Would you expect the

4 telecommunications centre up in Sarajevo to receive that message the same

5 day, or within an hour, or might it be a longer time? In other words,

6 what's your best estimate of the transmission time for these messages?

7 A. I assume that it would take 24 hours to reach the person it was

8 addressed to, taking into account the procedure, how it's sent, and the

9 system, I assume that it would be received within 24 hours from the time

10 it was sent.

11 Q. Very well.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

13 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, in the previous answer, he says, "I

14 couldn't tell you exactly the time that it takes," that's on page 39, line

15 8. Now he says "I assume," he used the word "assume" twice. It's nothing

16 more than speculation and it should be stricken.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may address this in your re-examination,

18 because this is the answer from this witness.

19 You may proceed, Mr. Morrissey.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Now, as to where -- as to the availability of communications

22 equipment in Jablanica, is it the case that in -- in an office -- I

23 withdraw that. I'll start the question again.

24 In the main office of the TO Staff of Jablanica, was there such a

25 paket veza computer available to be used by you?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And was that office -- you've indicated the location of

3 where the IKM was. I bear in mind your comments about the IKM, but I'm

4 just going to call it the "IKM" so we don't waste a lot of time. So in

5 the office where -- in the building where the IKM was, was there also to

6 be found the TO Staff office?

7 A. The TO Staff office, as far as I know, was not in that building.

8 Q. Whereabouts was it? Sorry.

9 A. The packet system was there in the building in the basement.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. Allow me to explain. It was a complex of buildings. The

12 buildings were all connected and the TO was in that complex, but the

13 building where the IKM was was not in the same building as the TO Staff

14 command, but the packet system of communications was in the basement.

15 Q. All right. Let me just be clear about that. Is it the fact that

16 the -- the basement connected to a number of different buildings?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Okay. Prior to the establishment of the -- well, who else --

19 you -- perhaps I should ask you this: Who else used that particular paket

20 veza system?

21 A. According to my information, except for the MUP - I can't say

22 anything about them - but I think that this system was also used by other

23 units, by the brigade command, by the TO. Most probably. I don't know.

24 If something was urgent, then the civilian organs used it as well, because

25 there was no direct communication with Sarajevo at the time.

1 Q. Right. I understand. And to the best of your knowledge, this

2 particular paket veza computer that was located in the -- in the basement

3 was the only one in communication with Sarajevo in Jablanica at that time;

4 is that correct?

5 A. As far as I know, yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Are you able to remember the name of this complex of buildings?

7 A. That was in the directorate of the Jablanica hydroelectric power

8 station.

9 Q. Okay. And you've indicated that housed in that complex of

10 buildings was the IKM and also the -- the TO. Do you recall who else or

11 what other bodies were housed in that complex?

12 A. I don't know about the others. I know that there was also a

13 restaurant or a canteen in that complex where refugees and soldiers had

14 their meals. I also took my meals there in that complex.

15 Q. And you've also indicated that this complex was more or less

16 across the street from the Hotel Jablanica; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Do you recall who it was that provided guards or security for

19 that complex of buildings, if anyone did?

20 A. From what I saw, other than the person at the reception who was

21 at the entrance gate of the power plant, I didn't see any military

22 security in that complex or around it.

23 Q. And there was certainly no military police or other guards taking

24 care of the IKM specifically, were there?

25 A. No. No, there were none. No.

1 Q. Could you explain -- was there a telephone at the IKM?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. Was there a conference room at the IKM?

4 A. The only premises that we used and called the "IKM" was actually

5 that conference room. That was the only room that we used. We didn't use

6 any other rooms.

7 Q. Yes. Now, I bear in mind what you've said about the term "IKM"

8 earlier, but fact is that the IKM was one room; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you have a secretary or a receptionist there, or were you

11 dependent upon the person who was looking at the paket veza system down in

12 the basement?

13 A. There was the operator of the packet system there. The

14 inspection team didn't have any staff to assist it.

15 Q. All right. Do you remember who it was who employed the -- the

16 operator of the paket veza system? Were they from the TO or were they

17 from some other organisation, as far as you recall?

18 A. I don't know. I really couldn't say.

19 Q. That's okay. Do you recall whereabouts Suljevic, Bilajac, and

20 Karic lived at the time when they were -- or slept at the time when they

21 were sleeping in -- in Jablanica?

22 A. As far as I know, they also had rooms at the hotel, but probably

23 because of the work they were doing, for the most part they didn't

24 actually sleep there.

25 Q. Yes. Did you yourself ever accompany -- or perhaps I should ask

1 you this: There was an occasion you mentioned that you went up to

2 Buturovic Polje. Did you stay up in that more-northern part on the night

3 of your visit to Buturovic Polje, or did you come back to Jablanica on

4 that night?

5 A. As far as I remember, we came back very late at night.

6 Q. Do you recall there was -- there was no paket veza computer at

7 Zuka's base in Donja Jablanica, was there?

8 A. As far as I know, no, there wasn't.

9 Q. And did you personally see any other paket veza system while you

10 were in Herzegovina? I don't mean in -- in the 4th Corps area in Mostar

11 but in the Neretva Valley generally speaking.

12 A. No, I didn't.

13 Q. Now, there was a local telephone network in -- in Jablanica

14 available to civilians and military; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, as far as I know, that's correct.

16 Q. But that local network was incapable of ringing to Sarajevo; is

17 that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Okay. Apart from those two forms of communication, did soldiers

20 in the field sometimes use Motorola hand-held radios?

21 A. That was the only means that was used out in the field where the

22 combat activities were underway.

23 Q. To the best of your recollection, what was the range of those

24 hand-held radios?

25 A. The Motorolas, you mean?

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. I don't know. I really don't know. I never had a Motorola

3 during the time that I was in the army. I was never issued one. But

4 these were old devices. And if there was a building or there was a hill

5 around, there was interference. The range was greater on flat terrain.

6 So it would vary. I mean, I could give you a -- a sort of layman's view

7 of that.

8 Q. No, that's okay. I'm grateful for the view you've given. But

9 I'll just ask you one more question: Did you notice very much flat

10 terrain in the Neretva Valley when you were there?

11 A. No, there is no flat terrain there at all.

12 Q. So the range of these Motorolas in the Neretva Valley was very

13 limited, according to your information.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Very well. Apart from those three methods of communication that

16 I've mentioned, are there any others that I've -- that were in existence

17 at the time that I've left out?

18 A. If you're thinking in Jablanica or generally -- well, I can say

19 that another means of communication the army used was through the radio --

20 ham radio operators, but I don't know whether there was such a connection

21 in that area.

22 Q. I see. And by "ham radio operators," you mean effectively

23 private persons who -- who had an interest in radio communications and

24 happened to have a radio set; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, this was used in Sarajevo quite broadly.

1 Q. Yes. But is the situation this: You don't know whether there

2 were such facilities available in Jablanica?

3 A. No, I don't know.

4 Q. No, I understand that.

5 Now, I just wanted to ask you now, having gone through that

6 lengthy analysis of communications: You sent your reports to Jasarevic by

7 the paket veza system. What about Brankovic? How did he send his reports

8 to his superiors in Mostar and Konjic?

9 A. I don't know. I said that I didn't know whether the MUP used the

10 packet system or whether they used the same one. I don't know.

11 Q. Yes. Were you present when -- when Brankovic sent his reports

12 off, one of which we have in -- well, perhaps I should -- I'll stop there.

13 I've just presumed something. Do you know whether Brankovic sent one or

14 more than one report to his superiors?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Very well. And you were never present when he actually

17 dispatched such a report; is that the case?

18 A. No, and he wasn't there when I was sending mine out.

19 Q. I understand. Okay. To your knowledge, was -- did Sejo

20 Brankovic meet with Minister Alispahic when he came to Jablanica?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Was Sejo Brankovic present at the meeting where -- that you've

23 described when Bakir Alispahic was present and there was a discussion

24 about provisions for the troops from Sarajevo?

25 A. He wasn't present.

1 Q. Okay. All right. So -- okay. Well, thank you for that.

2 Now, you didn't have a vehicle; is that correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. As far as you could see, Karic, Suljevic, and Bilajac shared a

5 vehicle, which was driven by the son of Karic; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you were effectively dependent upon other persons to give you

8 a lift: For example, Soko, from Zuka's unit, or Sejo Brankovic; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Only once. But I didn't even ask that. When we went to

11 Grabovica, I used the car. I was told to sit with Mr. Soko.

12 As far as the other two times are concerned later, I asked

13 Mr. Emin Zebic, because Mr. Brankovic is not from Jablanica. He's from

14 Mostar. So he didn't have any vehicles available. I asked Mr. Zebic to

15 help me out and to lend me a car.

16 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned there was one occasion when you tried

17 to go to Grabovica but you were turned back at the -- at a checkpoint.

18 Was that one of the times when you had a vehicle loaned to you by

19 Mr. Zebic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And on that occasion, when you went to that checkpoint, did you

22 have with you your SVB identification card or had you left it behind for

23 the reasons that you explained yesterday?

24 A. Well, I didn't take it from Sarajevo at all.

25 Q. Okay. So just -- I suppose my question is this: When you got to

1 that checkpoint but were turned back by soldiers, you didn't have an SVB

2 card to present to those soldiers; is that correct?

3 A. That's correct. I didn't have it. And I would like to explain.

4 It was a civilian car. It was a Renault 18 of white colour. We didn't

5 use any MUP vehicles. It was just a civilian car of Renault 18 -- a

6 Renault 18 model in white.

7 Q. I understand. Okay. Very well. Now, after the soldiers left

8 for the terrain, you didn't -- sorry, I -- so -- I've got myself confused

9 with two questions. Just pardon me.

10 First of all, as a general proposition, Sejo Brankovic was in

11 your company in the two weeks or so following the killings, and in that

12 time he helped you do the tasks that you were able to do; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. In that time, you were -- the tasks that you were actually able

15 to perform really consisted of attempting to gather information; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes, to gather information and send it to Sarajevo.

18 Q. Very well. And during that time, you were really waiting for a

19 reply from Mr. Jasarevic to the proposals that you'd made on the 13th of

20 the 9th to put together a commission and to take the other steps that you

21 indicated there; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, I was waiting for somebody to come and assist me.

23 Q. Okay. And during that time of waiting, you had very irregular

24 access to a vehicle; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

1 Q. But as far as you could see, the police had goodwill. They were

2 prepared to help you when they did have a vehicle available and they were

3 prepared to -- well, I'll put it step by step.

4 First of all, as far as you could see, the local police acted

5 with goodwill towards you and Brankovic and gave you the assistance as

6 they could; is that the case?

7 A. Yes, they assisted us to the extent that it was possible. Let me

8 also stress that the amount of petrol in that area that one could use was

9 restricted and the use of the car as well, so I simply couldn't bring

10 myself to go to them every day and ask for the use of the vehicle. Only

11 in exceptional situations. Because they had a huge fuel crisis as well.

12 Q. Now, did you personally attend at the -- at the left bank of

13 Grabovica and -- and endeavour to speak to any of the refugees there, in

14 this -- and I'm talking now about the two weeks following the killings.

15 Did you go down there and -- and try to speak to any of the refugees?

16 A. You mean in those shacks where the refugees were? I never went

17 there and I never attempted to talk to the refugees.

18 Q. Okay. We've heard some evidence about military police -- well,

19 we've heard some evidence from the police, actually, from the civilian

20 police about visits by other persons to that area. Did you become

21 personally aware that some military police people went to the left bank

22 and tried to speak to the -- to the civilians who were still to be found

23 on the left bank?

24 A. No, I didn't know about it.

25 Q. And what about the people who had been evacuated from the left

1 bank? We've heard evidence that some of those had come to Jablanica. Did

2 you speak to any of those people - I mean the Croat people - who had come

3 to Jablanica and make inquires of them as to what they saw, if anything,

4 and what they had to say?

5 A. Only at a later stage did I find out that some people were

6 evacuated -- or rather, that the civilian authorities placed them

7 somewhere in Jablanica. I had no access to them in order to talk to them.

8 Q. Was it your understanding that the civilian police who were

9 assisting in this inquiry were going to speak to these civilians?

10 A. Well, that was my opinion, because they were civilians.

11 Q. Yes. And as far as you could see, the civilian authorities knew

12 about the crimes and were assisting you in your tasks to investigate; is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Do you remember whether you ever got a -- a report from --

16 or -- "report" sounds rather grand, I know. Did you ever receive any

17 report or any news as to whether any information was gained by the

18 civilian authorities speaking to such refugees? Sorry, I shouldn't use

19 the word "refugees" because that's -- in this context, it has a double

20 meaning. I'll ask that question again.

21 Do you remember whether you heard that the civilian police got

22 any information from the relocated Croats?

23 A. Nobody ever mentioned any talks or statements to me. This is a

24 piece of information that I never had.

25 Q. I understand. Can I ask you this: Was it within your

1 information whether the -- whether some of the -- the villagers, Croat

2 villagers, were too scared to talk about what happened?

3 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that.

4 Q. And was it ever within your information that the Muslim refugees

5 who were still living in Grabovica were also too scared to talk about what

6 had happened? Did you ever hear that?

7 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.

8 Q. I understand you weren't a member of the civilian police force,

9 but you were in Jablanica. What was life like in Jablanica in those days?

10 Well, that's a very general question, I know, but were there very many

11 refugees living in Jablanica at that time?

12 A. There were quite a few refugees in Jablanica, but for the most

13 part there were people there who had been released from camps.

14 Q. Yes. And do you recall whether or not Jablanica was shelled by

15 the HVO at that time, during the time when you were there?

16 A. No, it wasn't shelled.

17 Q. Were you in Mostar in the day -- before you were summoned to join

18 the team, you were in Mostar. Can you just tell the Tribunal a bit about

19 what conditions were like for the Bosnian population in Mostar.

20 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour. It's not relevant, what

21 the situation was like in Mostar.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you have to establish the relevance of this

23 piece of the evidence.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: I agree I have to establish the relevance. Part

25 of the Prosecution case is that Mr. Halilovic has got to take the

1 reasonable steps, and the context in which he takes the steps he takes

2 include that - it's the Defence case - that the operation to relieve

3 Mostar was a very important operation and that it had to go ahead because

4 of the humanitarian and military crisis that was facing the people who

5 lived there. In other words, it wasn't open to simply stop the world in

6 order to investigate this crime because something much worse was happening

7 and was about to happen even more. I'm entitled to lead that evidence to

8 establish the -- the need for this operation to go ahead, because the

9 Prosecution make a criticism of Mr. Halilovic, or I presume at the end of

10 the case will make such a criticism. Well, the Defence is going to say

11 that those in authority, whether the Court is prepared to find that

12 Mr. Halilovic was one such person is another question, but whether he was

13 or he wasn't, those in authority were fully entitled to go ahead with the

14 operation, and we have -- we want to establish that and we want to

15 establish why. And therefore, the situation in -- in Mostar seems to

16 me -- well, I submit it's directly relevant to the questions that are

17 before this Tribunal.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, the subject matter of this trial is not about

19 any military operations at all. Even if there's a very urgent situation

20 required for the -- the military operations, it has nothing to do with the

21 humanitarian law.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours --

23 JUDGE LIU: Here, the subject matter is whether civilians or

24 those who laid down their arms were mistreated or injured.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, when Mr. Halilovic is charged on

1 the basis of command responsibility, as he is, for failing to punish --

2 failing to follow up, effectively, in the way that the Prosecution wants

3 to establish, the Court simply can cannot ignore and the Tribunal -- in my

4 in my submission - I don't take Your Honour to mean this, but I have to

5 spell it out clearly - that the context in which Mr. Halilovic is supposed

6 to have taken the actions that the Prosecution want him to take is

7 relevant. It's one thing to say that a commander who is -- who is simply

8 sitting in a command post somewhere in peacetime and learns of a crime and

9 doesn't act has got a certain level of responsibility is one thing. To

10 say that Mr. Halilovic is obliged to take particular steps in the

11 circumstances in which he found himself is quite another. And it must be

12 and will be directly relevant to his culpability here.

13 And the third element of Section 7(3) makes it quite plain that

14 it's the real -- he's got to take all reasonable steps, all realistic

15 steps. And the concept of what's reasonable and realistic is all about

16 the facts. It's not a university exam here. It's a -- it's a real-life

17 situation.

18 Now, if Mr. Halilovic was in the middle of drowning and failed to

19 take certain steps, he wouldn't be guilty. If Mr. Halilovic was being

20 shot at and failed to take certain steps, he wouldn't be guilty. And if

21 he's in the middle of a military operation, then we say he wouldn't be

22 guilty. But it's a question of degree, because, of course, if he's in the

23 middle of a camp where he's busily liquidating many people or being part

24 of such a -- a situation, well, he can say it's a crisis, and it probably

25 is, but he'd still be guilty. But in the middle of a military operation,

1 Your Honour, that's something that you would, in my submission, take a

2 great deal of notice of when deciding whether he had taken all reasonable

3 steps, whether he'd done what was reasonably required.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that is a statement in the opening

5 statement or in the closing arguments later on. Here we are going to deal

6 with some practical matters.

7 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

8 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, the fact that crimes occurred during

9 military operations is why we are here at this Tribunal. Those things

10 happen every single day -- happened every single day in the former

11 Yugoslavia, or happened quite often in the former Yugoslavia. That is not

12 a defence if it occurs in a military operation.

13 We have information concerning a military operation which is

14 underway. We've had evidence of the testimony of the conditions in

15 Sarajevo and Jablanica. There is no need to delve into the conditions in

16 Mostar. We can go off on other tracks and we can spend more time and

17 waste more time on things like this. There just isn't any need. It's not

18 relevant, and I'd ask that they just move on.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Morrissey, in this situation, you may ask

20 general questions about, you know, what was happening in Mostar, but I

21 hope you do not go into the very details on that issue.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: As the Court pleases.

23 Q. Let me just ask you a general question: What was the situation

24 like in Mostar for the civilian population when you were there in the

25 week -- weeks leading to your joining the inspection team?

1 A. Critical.

2 Q. In what way critical?

3 A. In a small area there were many civilians who were refugees from

4 Nevesinje, Gacko, and that part of Herzegovina, and on the one side we had

5 Chetniks, on the other side, the HVO. They were being shelled on a daily

6 basis. They didn't have enough food or water or electricity or medicines.

7 I myself personally witnessed a surgery without anaesthetics.

8 Q. What was the military situation like, apart from --

9 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour. Now we're into the

10 military situation there.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that's a little bit far away.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, may I just persist though. I -- I

13 just want the Prosecutor to clarify this. Do they seriously suggest - and

14 I want this on record - that the military situation is --

15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, this should be outside this witness.

16 The witness should be removed if they're going to start to talk about

17 situations in evidence.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours --

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I haven't heard -- I haven't heard the question

20 put by Mr. Morrissey, so I'm in a difficult position, you know, to say

21 anything at this moment.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, I -- may I -- I assist here?

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: I want to ask this question. I've --

25 Your Honours have given me leave, I think, to ask a couple of general

1 questions. I've asked one general question, and now I'm going to ask

2 another one, and then that will be the end of it. But the military

3 situation in Mostar is plainly a matter of relevance. No one objected

4 when I asked questions of those witnesses concerning the Zenica meeting

5 about the urgent situation in Mostar. I've asked the -- these questions

6 of many other witnesses without objection. Now we've got someone who was

7 actually there. In my submission, this is the very witness who can say

8 what situation -- what the situation was in short, brief terms, and it

9 would assist the Tribunal. It's relevant to the third element of 7(3).

10 I'd just ask to persist with that question, please.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may ask this question. But later on we'll

12 consider whether we give any weight to that piece of the evidence.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Of course. As the Court pleases.

14 Q. Yes. You've answered the question about the -- the critical

15 situation for the civilians in Mostar. Just tell us, from your

16 experience, what was the military situation facing the government army in

17 Mostar at the time when you were there?

18 A. Well, the military shared in the fate of the civilians. They

19 were on the front lines with a few weapons, very little ammunition, and

20 the only communication lines open to these units were precisely the route

21 I travelled, 18 hours on the road, and it was impossible to provision the

22 army with anything significant in order to make it possible for them to

23 defend themselves. People were exhausted because of combat operations,

24 daily shelling, and we were on the front line all the time. We used to

25 have our meals there, sleep there, because there was nowhere else to go.

1 Q. Thank you. Just excuse me one moment, please.

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness now please be shown MFI235.

4 That completes the questions concerning Mostar.

5 Q. I'm now going to show you your next -- the next report that

6 you -- that you compiled. This is a document that was dated 29 September

7 1993, and it's the report where you included the list of -- of people who

8 used to live in -- in Grabovica. Do you have that document in front of

9 you yet?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Now, this -- I've got a series of questions about this

12 document. First of all, it's -- it's -- the address at which it's said to

13 have been written is the IKM at Jablanica, on the 29th of September, 1993.

14 And I just want you to -- I just want to ask you a couple of questions

15 about that: To your knowledge, the combat operations involving the

16 Sarajevo units -- I'm sorry, I've been asked to slow down for the

17 interpreters here. Pardon me.

18 The combat operations involving the Sarajevo units ended on or

19 about the 20th of September, and those units then went back to Sarajevo.

20 Is that -- is that correct?

21 A. Combat operations finished and the units went back to Sarajevo,

22 but I can't recollect the exact date.

23 Q. Okay. Well, look, we've heard evidence -- I just want to put

24 this -- we've heard evidence from other witnesses about this. One witness

25 named Okovic tendered a particular document, a record of -- of movements

1 of his unit. Now, if it be the evidence of Mr. Okovic that the units did

2 return on or about the 20th of September, you don't quarrel or dispute

3 that evidence, is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, the witness just said he doesn't know

7 when the incidental occurred. Now they're asking him about what some --

8 what another witness said about something he doesn't know about, and

9 they're asking him if he's disputing it. It's just speculation, Judge.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, how do you know that that witness said he

11 doesn't know about it.

12 MR. WEINER: Because he just said he doesn't know --

13 answer: "Combat operations finish and the units went back to Sarajevo,

14 but I can't recollect the exact date." Now they're asking him --

15 JUDGE LIU: The witness said that he did not know about the exact

16 date. Maybe in a certain period. It's within September or the beginning

17 of October? Maybe he could give us a -- a range of dates.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: As the Court pleases. I'll ask the witness about

19 a range of dates.

20 Q. Well, do you agree that -- to the best of your memory, the units

21 from Sarajevo went back to Sarajevo a little under two weeks --

22 approximately two weeks after the killings took place? Does that accord

23 with your memory or not?

24 A. Well, perhaps a fortnight, maybe a couple of days longer.

25 Q. Okay. At all events, by the time you came to write this

1 particular note, the troops had already been gone back to Sarajevo for a

2 number of days; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Now, you've already seen -- the Prosecution showed you, I

5 think, a report by the inspection team that was dated the 20th of

6 September? Do you recall that?

7 A. I've seen that report.

8 Q. Yes. Now, is it your recollection that the troops -- that the

9 members of the IKM -- members of the inspection team, in particular --

10 went back to Sarajevo at approximately the same time as the troops went

11 back?

12 A. I don't know about it, but I do know that they left before I --

13 before I did, because I didn't see them there.

14 Q. Yes. Now, you remained in Herzegovina in your capacity as an SVB

15 operative with the job of looking into the killings at Grabovica to the

16 extent possible; is that correct?

17 A. I stayed at Jablanica for the simple reason that I have no -- I

18 had received no orders to go back.

19 Q. I understand. But you understood that your -- your obligations

20 concerning the -- the investigation into the -- the killings were ongoing

21 obligations, which included writing this report dated 29 September 1993;

22 is that correct?

23 A. No. No. Everything I uncovered in the course of the period of

24 time that I was there and was in any way related to that -- well, I

25 gathered all the information and then I included it in my final report,

1 and that was my final report from Jablanica. And then in the end, since I

2 received no orders to go back, I went back to Sarajevo on my own

3 initiative.

4 Q. Very well. And -- well, that was going to be my next question.

5 To the best of your memory, you went back to Sarajevo without receiving

6 any particular order from General Jasarevic; is that the case?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Now, I just have to ask you about that, because we've had

9 evidence from other witnesses in this case, and I just wanted to ask you:

10 Is it possible that you did receive an order from General Jasarevic and

11 you've just forgotten about it now? I'm not telling you what the answer

12 is, yes or no, but I just ask you to consider that. Is it possible that

13 you were told to come back by General Jasarevic and you've just forgotten

14 that request, or do you say that you just were never told and you came

15 back on your own initiative altogether?

16 A. Well, how was he supposed to tell me to go back? If I may ask.

17 Q. Well, of course you may ask. There's if -- it's been said that

18 there was a written order for you to come back to Sarajevo. Now, do you

19 recall receiving any such written order?

20 A. No, never. I never received such an order.

21 Q. Just excuse me a moment. Sorry.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 MR. MORRISSEY:

24 Q. Just -- sorry, pardon me one moment.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, would Your Honours just forgive me an

1 order. I think I might just show that order to the witness just to be

2 fair and make sure that -- that he understands what the situation is.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MR. MORRISSEY:

5 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm just going to have -- somebody is going to

6 look for a particular document there.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I just -- I must say this: I just

8 have the sense -- I don't want to do an unfairness to the witness here. I

9 recall the evidence -- and I may have confused myself as to that

10 particular -- or to any particular document. I just want to research that

11 before I go back to that topic because I don't want to leave the witness

12 in a position of unfairness.

13 Q. Certainly, Mr. Dzankovic, I just want to be clear about that. We

14 had evidence in this Tribunal - that's what I'm putting to you - don't

15 worry about that document that I mentioned for a minute. I'm not so sure

16 about that as I stand here in court questioning you. Anyway, the fact is

17 you've got no recollection of any such request being made. That's the

18 long and short of it, isn't it?

19 A. What order? The question you've just asked?

20 Q. Yes, yes.

21 A. Well, what I see on the screen in front of me - and there's a

22 handwritten bit - "Send a telegram to Namik to go back to the security

23 staff," and it is handwritten. But let me reiterate it: I have never

24 ever received any such document, any order in writing from the gentlemen

25 in Sarajevo.

1 Q. Yes. Thank you for that answer.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, can I just indicate, that's the

3 source of my mistake. The witness has put his finger on it. I had a half

4 memory about it, and so I apologise for wasting the Court's time for five

5 minutes on that topic.

6 Q. Now, to come back to this particular document. I just want to

7 ask you about a couple of proposals that are contained in it or

8 suggestions that are contained in it. Do you see there the reference to

9 Samir Pezo?

10 A. Can you just scroll it down a little bit? That's enough. Thank

11 you.

12 Yes, I can see it.

13 Q. Okay. Now, here you've -- I just remind you of something, that

14 in the previous report you had mentioned the -- the necessity of taking

15 statements from the 2nd Independent Battalion soldiers when they came to

16 Sarajevo. Now, here you were effectively reminding the SVB in Sarajevo

17 that Samir Pezo might have something to say of importance to the

18 investigation; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, Mr. Samir Pezo was there on the spot; that is to say, in

20 Grabovica, with his unit, and that happened around the area where they

21 were billeted. I suppose that some of his people might have seen

22 something.

23 Q. Yes. No, I -- I understand. Did you also mention to Jasarevic

24 in the last paragraph that -- an agreement in general terms that the

25 on-site investigation would be done by the MUP?

1 A. Well, look, at a meeting -- or rather, when we were trying to

2 arrange things at MUP, we had a conversation about it, since the units had

3 gone away and left the area that there was a possibility to go down there

4 and try to do something. But there was no agreement actually. There was

5 nothing on paper. And I wasn't at a level of somebody who would have been

6 able to agree anything like that or order anything like that. But there

7 were talks about it. As to whether MUP carried out any investigation

8 afterwards or anything, I'm not aware of that.

9 Q. No. And I understand that you were not in a position to give any

10 orders to the MUP. However, it -- when you left Herzegovina, it was your

11 expectation that the MUP would do that job; is that correct?

12 A. Well, I thoughts somebody would have done it.

13 Q. Yes. And your understanding, because of the conversation

14 you'd -- you had already had, was that it was going to be the MUP who did

15 it; is that correct?

16 A. Well, I assumed if not MUP, somebody else would be entrusted with

17 the task to do that part of the job, because it is an expert task and

18 quite some time had passed from -- since the killings, that is to say,

19 those events. And as to the investigation and the expert opinion, et

20 cetera, it all requires real experts, especially because quite a bit of

21 time had elapsed since the events.

22 Q. Yes. And, in fact, you had already given advice way back on the

23 13th of September that this was what, in your opinion, should be done and

24 should be arranged by your superiors in the SVB; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now, my final questions relate to the -- the -- and they're very

2 short ones now -- relate to the -- the Operation Trebevic, Trebevic I.

3 When you were -- when you were given your task by military security, had

4 persons already been taken into custody from the 9th and 10th Brigades?

5 Or was that something that was still to occur?

6 A. No, no. The operation had already begun and people were already

7 brought in.

8 Q. Okay. And were you given anything in writing to indicate the

9 sort of questions that you should ask and the sort of areas that you

10 should explore with the people that you had to interview?

11 A. Nothing in writing.

12 Q. No. As to oral instructions, were you told to cover a variety of

13 topics but including the crimes at Grabovica?

14 A. Not to me specifically but to everyone who had been at the

15 morning meeting such instructions were issued. I never received --

16 actually, I never had the opportunity to speak to any of the soldiers from

17 the 9th and the 10th, which were in the area of Grabovica at the time of

18 the killings. Others made the schedule, so I never had the opportunity

19 for such an interview.

20 Q. Yes. No, and I understand you gave that evidence before. But

21 just in terms of -- of the instructions that you were given under

22 Trebevic, who was the person at the morning meeting who gave you your

23 tasks?

24 A. From Vahid Bogunic.

25 Q. Very well. And Vahid Bogunic, can you just explain in terms of

1 the organisation at the UB, which is the -- the highest level of the SVB,

2 what was the relationship of Vahid Bogunic in relation to Jusuf Jasarevic?

3 What was Bogunic's role?

4 A. Bogunic was the number-two man in the security administration.

5 Q. Are you able to say that Vahid Bogunic knew very well that you

6 had been the security person attached to the inspection team that went

7 down to Herzegovina?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Had you had any conversations or contacts with Vahid Bogunic

10 between the time when you joined the inspection team and the time when you

11 went to this morning meeting in order to be briefed?

12 A. I never got in touch with the gentleman, and I did not send my

13 reports to him. I sent my reports to the chief, Jusuf Jasarevic.

14 Q. Yes. I understand that. And as you understood -- yes, I

15 withdraw that question.

16 Just one second, please. I've nearly finished this.

17 [Defence counsel confer]

18 MR. MORRISSEY:

19 Q. Yes. Just look, my final question is: In that -- in that

20 last -- in the fortnight or so - you've indicated a fortnight or maybe a

21 couple of days more before the soldiers went back to Sarajevo - are you

22 sure you didn't run into Sefer Halilovic down at Donja Jablanica on one

23 occasion after the meeting in the hotel? In other words, after the

24 killings and after the military operation was underway, are you sure you

25 didn't bump into Sefer Halilovic at Donja Jablanica in the company of Zuka

1 on one occasion?

2 A. After the meeting, as far as I can remember, I did not see

3 Mr. Halilovic.

4 Q. Did you ever see his son, Semir, his young son?

5 A. Semir was with him when he came to my door. Semir was with him

6 when he came to see me in my room at the hotel.

7 Q. Yes. Very well. Mr. Dzankovic, thank you for your patience in

8 answering the questions.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: That's the end of the cross-examination.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you.

11 Any re-examination?

12 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

14 Re-examined by Mr. Weiner:

15 Q. Sir, you were just discussing the Trebevic number I investigation

16 in the interviews, and you indicated that you didn't interview any

17 members -- I believe of the 9th or 10th, or you might have just said the

18 9th. Prior to this case in Grabovica, did you have any experience in

19 interviewing homicide suspects?

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, the witness answered that question

21 very clearly in evidence in chief. He said "no." I didn't ask him any

22 questions about it at all, and it's not a permissible question at this

23 stage.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. This question is asked and answered.

25 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, but I just -- I think we should be able

1 to go over it because they've just left an impression that they did not

2 use him to interview this -- these certain suspects for the 9th and 10th.

3 And I think they've left a certain impression there. And I think there's

4 a reason why they didn't use him. And I think that's why it's important.

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Whatever my friend thinks is totally irrelevant.

6 He can ask relevant questions in re-examination according to the rules.

7 And if he's got one, I won't object to it. He can dispel any impression

8 he wants by asking questions within the rules.

9 MR. WEINER: And that is within the rules. They've raised an

10 impression, which I believe is a false impression, and I'd like to clarify

11 it or correct it.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay. Well, I wish to make --

13 MR. WEINER: Which is --

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, you finish.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. You may proceed.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I'm sorry. May I just intervene

17 there, Your Honour. I'm sorry. I regret that my friend has now

18 commenced -- he did it yesterday, he's done it today. He's referred to

19 false impressions, and I think yesterday it was said that I misled the

20 witness and so on. I don't want to be defending myself against these

21 comments. I don't mislead witnesses. I don't leave false impressions.

22 I'll clean up anything that needs to be cleaned up, but I want the

23 objection to be made in a proper and fair way without. We don't cast

24 dispersions. I don't want the Prosecutor casting dispersions either, Your

25 Honour.

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think there's a misunderstanding between the

2 parties on that specific words.

3 Let's come to the specific facts, you know, rather than kind of

4 impression by anybody.

5 MR. WEINER:

6 Q. Sir, did you have any investigative experience with homicide

7 suspects?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, you were asked about this document number 235, where it

10 talks about the possibility of an on-site investigation and exhumation.

11 Did any member of the inspection team ever request you to perform an

12 on-site investigation or an exhumation at Grabovica?

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, once again --

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: -- the learned Prosecutor asked almost verbatim

16 that question in evidence in chief. In cross-examination, I never did put

17 to him or ask him questions about the inspection team asking him to do an

18 on-site investigation of any sort. There's never been any suggestion that

19 they did. The Prosecutor might one day show why they should, but at the

20 moment we're talking about questions arising from cross-examination. And

21 this one just plainly does not. And it's not a question of impressions,

22 dreams, or ghosts. If he points to a question where I raised it, he can

23 clarify it; otherwise, he shouldn't.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that investigation issues is

25 mentioned in the cross-examination. Maybe, Mr. Weiner, you could ask

1 general questions --

2 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: -- concerning of the investigation.

4 MR. WEINER:

5 Q. Who, if anyone, ordered you to perform an on-site investigation

6 or exhumation at Grabovica?

7 A. I did not receive a specific order to that effect from anyone.

8 A. If Sefer Halilovic requested you to do an on-site investigation

9 or an exhumation process at Grabovica, would you have followed that order?

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Did I hear my friend refer to the

11 word "speculative" earlier on? Because, Your Honours, this is the sort of

12 question that just cannot be asked. It's speculative. It doesn't arise

13 out of cross-examination. It's -- well, there's all sorts of things I

14 could say about it, but there is no way this question can be asked, and I

15 object to it.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with the Defence.

17 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, may I respond to that?

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. WEINER: This witness has said at pages 31 and pages 32 that

20 he did not receive any orders from a higher-up -- or from a -- okay. Or

21 if they received an order from a higher-up commander to come, they would

22 have come. And he's referring to an investigative team would have come.

23 If a higher-up commander or if the chief of the military security asked

24 him to come. That's number one.

25 Number two, they've talked extensively about what was done and

1 what was not done.

2 Number three, through his cross-examination, he brought out that

3 Sefer Halilovic was the commander of the I-Team, the inspection team, and

4 that he had given him orders. As a result of those questions, I'd like to

5 ask him: If he had given you an order, would you have followed it? It

6 comes right from the cross-examination, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the witness answered in his

8 previous answer by saying that nobody gave him any orders to investigate.

9 MR. WEINER: And we'd like to follow up in a member of the

10 inspection team or Sefer Halilovic gave him an order, would he have

11 followed it as a member of that team.

12 JUDGE LIU: That's a very speculative question.

13 MR. WEINER: No, he can say, "I would have followed my

14 commander's question or I would not have followed it."

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, I hope you could drop this question.

16 MR. WEINER: All right. As the Court pleases.

17 Q. You were asked about your work with the local police department,

18 the local -- with the Jablanica SUP. Did they ever advise you that they

19 took any further -- the local MUP. Did they ever advise you that they

20 took any further statements from any witnesses?

21 A. No, I didn't know that.

22 Q. Did they ever assist you with an on-site investigation?

23 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, this witness has already said that

24 he didn't perform one. Now, what's the function of that question

25 otherwise than to make a speech? Your Honours, it's -- it's just

1 commentary now and it's not permissible and I object to it.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

3 MR. WEINER:

4 Q. Were you aware or did they advise you as to the number of

5 Grabovica villagers living in or staying in Jablanica or Donja Jablanica?

6 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, look, I object to this. I

7 mean, I'm not sure exactly where that's going, but the Prosecutor led in

8 evidence in chief a document where that very list is present. Now, this

9 is simply reiterating evidence in chief. It's not something that --

10 MR. WEINER: Your --

11 MR. MORRISSEY: In my submission, this really is reopening

12 evidence in chief at the moment. I'm commenting on the direction of

13 questions generally. That question there seems to be simply reiteration,

14 so I object to it on that basis.

15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, he --

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, to me the question is another new aspect in

17 that area. I don't think it was raised during the cross-examination.

18 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, they -- he asked -- he had asked if he

19 was aware that Zuka had saved any civilians. There's also talk in these

20 reports about other civilians. There's talks about civilians on the left

21 bank and he asked about whether those people were interviewed. My

22 question is: Based on the reports in this case, was he aware of any other

23 witnesses that had left Grabovica and were now living in Donja Jablanica

24 or Jablanica. We've had a lot of testimony about that in this case.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

1 MR. WEINER: Including the police helping these people go there.

2 JUDGE LIU: According to a report filed by this witness, about 14

3 villagers was evacuated after that incident.

4 MR. WEINER: Then based on their going through the reports, I'd

5 like to question him about that.

6 JUDGE LIU: But this issue was not mentioned during the

7 cross-examination. It should have been done in the direct examination.

8 MR. WEINER: Counsel asked him if he was aware of the civilian

9 police interviewing any other refugees, and then he switched the name

10 from "refugees." This is a lead-off of that. They opened the issue,

11 we're allowed to follow up.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, here we have two kinds of refugees. One is a

13 Muslim refugee staying in Grabovica. Another is the refugees with the

14 Croat refugees fleeing from Grabovica to Jablanica. I just got confused

15 on this issue. Maybe Mr. Morrissey could clarify that, because after all,

16 the question was raised by you.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I -- I actually asked about both. I

18 asked about the ones who came to Grabovica. I asked about the ones who

19 remained in Jablanica. If my learned friend wishes to clarify that

20 matter, then there's no objection to him clarifying whether he knew that

21 there were refugees in Jablanica and whether there were Croats and

22 Muslims, and questions of that nature. I fully concede that my questions

23 there got a little wordy. So I wouldn't object to clarifying about that.

24 As Your Honours pointed out, that's the question I objected to originally,

25 but we might be getting somewhere, so I wouldn't object to that, Your

1 Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: You may ask some questions concerning the refugees.

3 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

4 Q. Were you aware that there were refugees from Grabovica, Croatian

5 refugees, staying in Jablanica and Donja Jablanica?

6 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, one moment I'm not sure there were any

7 staying in Donja Jablanica. I don't think that's evidence at all. I

8 think there's evidence that they were -- they were staying in Jablanica.

9 Donja Jablanica, as I understand, was Zuka's base. And I don't think it's

10 been said there were any refugee there is, and certainly not by this

11 witness.

12 MR. WEINER: I'm just asking him if he was aware, Your Honour.

13 They've raised the issue of refugees, Croatian refugees leaving.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may proceed.

15 MR. WEINER:

16 Q. Were you aware of that, sir?

17 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm a little confused

18 now. The original question said "Muslim refugees," and now my friend

19 mentions "Croatian refugees." I think -- my friend is allowed to ask the

20 questions, but has to be precision about it. That's why he's allowed to

21 ask it, precision.

22 MR. WEINER: That's the pot calling the kettle black, as to lack

23 of precision.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, no, no, no, I accept lack of precision. I

25 accept lack of precision.

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well, let's go step by step. First to

2 clarify refugees and later on ask about the Croatian refugees.

3 MR. WEINER:

4 Q. Sir, were you aware of any refugees, basically persons from

5 Grabovica, currently staying -- or after the incident staying in Donja

6 Jablanica or Jablanica?

7 A. This term "refugees" is for people who lived there and who after

8 the events had pulled out or were evacuated to Jablanica -- well,

9 actually, it's not clear, but people who stayed alive were transferred to

10 Jablanica, according to my information, and they were -- their

11 accommodation was taken care of by the civilian organs.

12 Q. About how many of these Croats from Grabovica were transported to

13 Jablanica?

14 A. I can't remember the exact number. I know about the two people

15 evacuated by Adnan Solakovic or handed over to the MUP organs. I know

16 about the two boys, the two children. I can't remember the exact number

17 of people and where they were accommodated. I don't know.

18 Q. Did you or anyone else attempt to interview the two children?

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Perhaps my friend could ask two questions, rather

20 than one, arising out of that matter.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. WEINER:

23 Q. Did you attempt to interview the two children?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Are you aware of anyone from the MUP of Jablanica attempted to

1 interview the two children?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Other than the two persons that Adnan Solakovic told you about,

4 did you attempt to interview anyone in Jablanica of those persons who

5 were -- were transferred out of Grabovica?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know if anyone from the MUP at Jablanica attempted to

8 interview those persons who were transferred out of Grabovica and were

9 staying in -- in Jablanica?

10 A. I don't know if anybody from MUP interviewed them. I didn't know

11 where they were accommodated either.

12 Q. Now, you were also asked about the different communications

13 systems that they had in Jablanica, and you were asked about the various

14 types of implements that were used, ranging from the packet system to

15 radios to Motorolas. Were messengers ever used, meaning human beings,

16 messengers ever used by the army?

17 A. You mean messengers, couriers?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. As far as I know, they were not used.

20 Q. Okay. Over long distances. Over short distances? I understand

21 a messenger wouldn't be used from Jablanica to Sarajevo, but what about

22 over a shorter distance?

23 A. I'm not aware that couriers, messengers, were used at all.

24 Q. Now, there were some questions concerning the IKM, the forward

25 command post. Who did you see working at that forward command post in

1 Jablanica?

2 A. Mr. Vehbija Karic, Zicro Suljevic, and Mr. Bilajac.

3 Q. And were meetings ever held at that forward command post in

4 Jablanica?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And were meetings in relation to Operation Neretva held at that

7 forward command post in Jablanica?

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, once again, the Prosecutor is

9 endeavouring to do in re-examination what should have been done, if he

10 wanted to, in evidence in chief. I didn't cross-examine about this. The

11 Prosecutor wasn't prepared to raise it in evidence in chief. It's too

12 late now to reconstruct it, in my submission.

13 JUDGE LIU: The first question is allowed, that is, "were

14 meetings ever held in the forward command post in Jablanica." But the

15 second is a little bit too far.

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, they questioned him as to the IKM

17 premises and to the extent of the IKM premises and that there was a

18 conference room there, and that's my follow-up question: Were meetings

19 held there, and were meetings as to Operation Neretva? They brought up

20 the issue of conference room. They opened the issue. They've raised the

21 issue in cross-examination.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the witness has already answered

23 the question concerning of the conference room, because he said that the

24 meeting was held there. But as for the specific meeting concerning of the

25 Operation Neretva, I am not quite sure. You may skip this question.

1 MR. WEINER: Okay. Thank you.

2 May the witness be shown Exhibit 215, which is also 221, please.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours.

4 MR. WEINER: They're both MFI. It's -- 215 and 221 is the same

5 document. Whichever one is clearer.

6 MR. MORRISSEY: I just --

7 JUDGE LIU: Question.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: This is not a quarrel here. I presume 221 is the

9 one I showed him. And I presume these questions arise out of

10 cross-examination. It would be best if he's shown the same one that he

11 was --

12 MR. WEINER: Whichever one is the clearer one.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 MR. WEINER: Page 2, please.

15 Q. Do you have the B/C/S in front of you, sir?

16 A. I have the beginning.

17 Q. Could you go to page 2, beginning with that

18 paragraph: "According to my information, a man called Ivica, a Croatian

19 member ..." Do you see that?

20 A. [No interpretation]

21 Could you please scroll it down for me.

22 Q. The paragraph beginning with: "According to my information, a

23 man called Ivica, a Croatian member of Zulfikar's special purposes

24 unit ...."

25 A. No, no. Go -- go back, up. Could you scroll it up a little bit

1 more, please.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I apologise for this. I'm not sure

3 if it's a technical problem from our point of view, but I think I've got

4 the Brankovic document in front of me here.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems to me that I've got the right

6 document. I found that particular paragraph.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Your Honours -- Your Honours, it's -- it's

8 just not the same on my computer. I'm sorry. I apologise to the

9 Prosecutor for this. I just don't have the --

10 Sorry, Your Honour. Might I just confer with Mr. Cengic. It's

11 just that I -- this doesn't seem to be the same document, which I think I

12 know quite well and ...

13 MR. WEINER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, maybe we

14 should take a break now and make it straight. We may have a technical

15 problem.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, would you just excuse me for a moment. I

17 may know why.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: If Your Honours would just grant us -- grant us

20 20 seconds to see if we can retrieve the technical situation.

21 JUDGE LIU: Is it document 215 or 221?

22 THE REGISTRAR: MFI215, Your Honour.

23 MR. WEINER: Those are one in the same, Your Honour.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I -- sorry, I've detected what the

25 problem is. The translations of each -- the English translations of

1 each -- of 215 and 221 are slightly different.

2 Now, the reason why that 221 was tendered separately is because

3 221 has got some -- has got a handwritten addition on the -- on the front,

4 and that's why it was -- that's why it was tendered differently.

5 That's -- that's really why I wanted the same document to be shown,

6 because there are slight differences, it would appear, not -- not

7 necessarily important ones, but slight differences in the English

8 translation, and that's what's caused the problem here.

9 The Prosecutor --

10 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

11 MR. MORRISSEY: I don't know that it matters very much. I don't

12 want to obstruct. I see why the problem has now arisen. I'd submit the

13 best course would be, really, to show the witness the one that he was

14 shown in cross-examination, because these questions are arising out of

15 cross-examination. The same document ought to be used.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, I haven't heard the question put by the

17 Prosecution, but this document has already been there.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.

19 JUDGE LIU: Shall we working along with this document, if there's

20 any objections or problems, please feel free to stand up.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, I agree, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed.

23 MR. WEINER:

24 Q. Mr. Witness, do you see that paragraph?

25 A. I have the information that "at the checkpoint at the entrance to

1 the settlement ..." Is that what you mean?

2 Q. At the barrier at the -- yes. If you could go down to the area

3 where counsel questioned you on, about three sentences down, four

4 sentences down, right after the rape, the woman that had been raped: "The

5 entire Supreme Command's forward command post of Jablanica had been

6 informed about this event." And then -- do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. The next sentence: "An investigation into the event

9 ascertaining the exact number of people killed, how they were killed, who

10 the perpetrators -- will be jointly conducted by officials of the military

11 security and Ministry of the Interior."

12 Were you involved or did you determine the exact number of people

13 killed?

14 A. I tried to obtain the right number with the help of SJB

15 Jablanica, because prior to that I had never been to Jablanica, so I could

16 not know of the number of people, their names, or any other information in

17 this respect.

18 Q. But did you ever make that final determination of the exact

19 number of people killed?

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, again, this is exactly the sort of

21 question that if my learned friend was serious about raising it, he would

22 have raised it in evidence in chief. I certainly didn't question him on

23 this topic, and now we have, in my submission, another attempt to lead

24 evidence in chief in redirect, and I object to it.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, but the Prosecution has already raised this

1 issue -- this question before. Here is just a clarification for the

2 answers of this witness. So in this aspect, this question is allowed.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: As the Court pleases.

4 MR. WEINER:

5 Q. Did you ever make that determination, sir?

6 A. Everything I've ascertained, everything I found, if it's me

7 you're asking, is indicated in my next report where you have the

8 indication of numbers, names, et cetera. If it is not the final report,

9 if there is any extra information obtained at a later stage, I'm not aware

10 of that information. So what I mean to say is what I've discovered and

11 what information I managed to obtain is included in my report. Because

12 had I obtained any other information at a later stage, I would have

13 included it. But this is what I know. As to whether this is the actual

14 number, the final result, the final outcome of those events, I do not

15 know. What I do know is included in my report.

16 Q. The next sentence, how they were killed. Did you ever determine

17 how these people were killed?

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour -- well, you can see what's

19 happening here. I object to it. It really is an attempt to just rerun

20 the whole re-exam -- the evidence in chief, and it's not - simply -

21 related to the previous question at all.

22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

23 JUDGE LIU: I believe that the witness has given a very

24 comprehensive answer in his previous answer to all your questions.

25 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, but they have spent over one hour on

1 this exhibit alone, over one hour and tried to indicate and have left an

2 impression that these investigations occurred, and they haven't.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, wait a minute. Your Honour, may I just

4 interrupt here for a moment. There's got to be some propriety about

5 objections and about submissions. Now, the Prosecutor has issued

6 effectively there a comment, a statement, and I seem to recall being

7 ticked off by the Prosecutor for -- for saying things in front of the

8 witness.

9 Now, Your Honour can just see on the screen what's happening now.

10 This has got the smell of desperation about it. I submit it shouldn't --

11 MR. WEINER: I object to that, Your Honour. That's uncalled for,

12 and the witness is here. If he wants to say that, let him please ask for

13 the witness to be removed and then he can say this. Now, that's uncalled

14 for, Your Honour.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour --

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well, now it's pretty late at this stage.

17 Mr. Weiner, I believe that the witness has answered your

18 question.

19 Let's take a break, and we'll resume at 1.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

23 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Just a few more questions, sir.

25 You were questioned on pages 35 and 36 of the transcript

1 concerning the quote that you had to apply strict censorship to the media,

2 and you answered that. What you were -- among your answers were: "What I

3 was thinking of was actually having the information released after an

4 investigation was conducted and proper steps had been taken." Sir, I just

5 want to clarify. Were those things -- were those two things -- did those

6 two things ever occur?

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, my friend had better clarify. Is he

8 asking whether the information was released? Then that would be a matter

9 arising out of cross-examination. If he's asking whether -- and you look

10 at the terms of the question here, you'll see it's another question of the

11 exact same kind I've been objecting to or appears to be. My learned -- my

12 learned friend would not be entitled to ask him whether an investigation

13 was conducted and proper steps were taken. He's already tried both of

14 those. One of them, he was overruled in terms of the propriety or

15 otherwise of the investigation, and Your Honours have already ruled on

16 that in examination-in-chief, as I recall. But if the question is whether

17 the information was released later, then of course I don't object to it.

18 But it looks to me as if it's an attempt to have another go at the same

19 old problem. So if it is, then I object.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, maybe the witness could answer this

21 question.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, Your Honour --

23 MR. WEINER: I'll clarify the question.

24 Q. The question concerns the -- the latter part of the -- of the

25 statement. Was an investigation conducted and proper steps taken?

1 Because you indicated that you were -- you -- it was your view to withhold

2 the information until that occurred. Did those things occur?

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay. Well --

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well, Mr. Weiner, I believe that question

5 is asked and answered already. If you are concerning of the information,

6 you could go ahead. But as for the two last things, the question has been

7 asked and answered.

8 MR. WEINER: All right.

9 Q. Finally, sir, you testified that you attempted to interview Samir

10 Pezo and Adnan Solakovic and they weren't -- at that point, they weren't

11 willing to talk to you, and you recommended that they be interviewed again

12 in Sarajevo. Did you ever interview them in Sarajevo? Did you ever make

13 any attempt to do so?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And are you aware of anyone else who did that?

16 A. I'm not aware.

17 MR. WEINER: Thank you. No further questions.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

19 Judge El Mahdi.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 [Interpretation] Witness, these are just a few points of

23 clarification I'd like to make. The first relates to the fact that runs

24 as follows: Do you think that or do you believe that an order in certain

25 circumstances - in other words, during a war or an armed conflict - is an

1 order that can be given orally and that this order cannot be given in

2 writing?

3 A. Well, in my opinion - and let me just reiterate that I'm not an

4 expert on military matters - but I believe that an order can be issued

5 orally, without putting it in writing. That's my opinion. Thank you.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So in the light of what's been

7 said by Mr. Halilovic when he met you, you said that you met him in the

8 hotel. He came to your door, and he indicated or hinted that you should

9 pursue your investigation. Do you think that this was an order that was

10 given to you by your superior in the army?

11 A. [Previous translation continues] ... and I acted in accordance

12 with that. Yes, and I acted in accordance with that.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So, then, Mr. Karic in the same

14 way told you -- or in the way you contacted each other, he used words

15 which were quite subtle, and I'm quoting you in English -- you were quite

16 subtle -- [In English] "Do your best and continue to collect as much

17 information as you can" -- [Interpretation] But as far as you were

18 concerned, this was also an order, wasn't it?

19 A. That's the way I understood it.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] An order -- an order has to be

21 followed up upon, doesn't it? In other words, you should then report back

22 to your superior commander or the person above you when he's asked you to

23 do something, because if I understand your testimony well, it's a matter

24 of saying that you reported the information back to your commander; in

25 other words, Mr. Jasarevic, and you didn't report back to either Mr. Karic

1 or Mr. Halilovic; is that right?

2 A. Well, I used to submit my reports to my superiors in MUP, but the

3 possibility of letting Mr. Halilovic and Mr. Karic and the others from the

4 inspection team know, it was not within my power. I didn't have the

5 possibility to get to know them, because they were far away in the area of

6 combat operations, so I had no access to them.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No. But were you or not a

8 member of that team?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Therefore, it was quite

11 reasonable -- or a reasonable thing for them to do to believe that you had

12 the possibility to contact them directly.

13 A. Well, the possibility of direct contact did not exist. I was at

14 Jablanica, and the team members were in the area of combat operations tens

15 of kilometres away.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] In other words, was nobody at

17 the advance command post? Is that right?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. And in Sarajevo,

20 couldn't you contact these people, or couldn't you send them your reports?

21 A. Where in Sarajevo? I don't quite understand the question.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] For instance, what kind of

23 position did Mr. Halilovic hold, for instance?

24 A. He was -- he was the Chief of Staff of the army.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. So Chief of Staff is

1 a fairly well-known person. If you don't know where his headquarters --

2 you didn't know where his headquarters were in Sarajevo?

3 A. Well, when I went back to Sarajevo, I was unable to contact

4 Mr. -- he wasn't in Sarajevo. He was in the area of combat operations.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But nevertheless there

6 were people on duty, weren't there?

7 A. Where exactly? I don't understand the question.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You said that he was Chief of

9 Staff. Don't you believe that the Chiefs of Staff have headquarters?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. So my question is a

12 very simple one: Were you unable -- materially speaking, were you unable

13 to contact him in his headquarters?

14 A. I got in touch with the security administration, and they are a

15 part of the Chief of Staff. And I thought that it was up to them to

16 forward it within the structure of their organisation, within the Chief of

17 Staff, where this information was meant to go, because they are a part of

18 the Chief of Staff structure.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But there are two

20 questions here. The first one is: You were a member of that team, and

21 Mr. Karic, for instance, was also a member of that team, and the chief was

22 Mr. Halilovic; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I shall move on to another

25 question. You said that when you arrived in Donja Jablanica you met the

1 members of that team, with the exception of Mr. Halilovic, who was away,

2 and the Minister of the Interior was also present, as well as the head of

3 the municipality in question; is that right?

4 A. That was not at Donja Jablanica.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Where is it, then?

6 A. That was at Jablanica.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Jablanica. Well, so you

8 discussed questions relating to logistics; in other words, the president

9 of the municipality had said that he would supply you with food. Is this

10 true? Is this right?

11 A. Yes. The agreement was that him and the commander of the brigade

12 would make an attempt at ensuring that there was some food.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But before that, before

14 that meeting, nothing had been decided prior to that relating to the

15 accommodation of the troops, where the troops were to be stationed in

16 Grabovica, for instance, and nothing had been decided as far as their food

17 was concerned, and it is at this meeting that these things were decided;

18 is that right?

19 A. No. As to accommodation, I'm not aware of that. And this is not

20 something that was discussed at that meeting. Accommodation was not

21 discussed. Just food. And the units had already arrived, and they were

22 in Grabovica that morning.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But nobody thought of bringing

24 up the issue of accommodation?

25 A. Look, I really don't know who made the decisions pertaining to

1 accommodation and all that. I don't know whether those decisions had been

2 made previously. I only attended one meeting, the one that we are

3 discussing now.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. So you said that when you

5 yourself went to Grabovica, you saw members of -- members of this group

6 sleeping in sleeping bags.

7 A. Those who had sleeping bags used them; others used blankets, and

8 others were sleeping on the grass.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Therefore, one had reason to

10 believe that this had been planned beforehand, that these men were going

11 to be spending the night or a part of the following day in the open air,

12 as they had been given sleeping bags.

13 A. Well, those who had sleeping bags were carrying them. Because as

14 I've said before, only very few people had sleeping bags. They brought

15 them from Sarajevo, obviously the ones that had sleeping bags.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Therefore, these were men coming

17 from Sarajevo?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] On the 13th of September, you

20 made a number of proposals, but looking at this report it seems that you

21 have not mentioned the fact that members of the 10th Brigade could have

22 been involved in these events. Do you exclude that possibility, i.e., the

23 fact that they could have been involved in these events? A, were they

24 present at the time?

25 A. They were at Jablanica. They arrived together with those units.

1 As to whether at Grabovica on the spot when I went down there whether

2 there were any members of the 10th Brigade, I cannot tell with any degree

3 of certainty, because there was nothing on their uniforms for me to be

4 able to tell what unit they belonged to.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But in your report, you don't

6 allude to the 10th Brigade at all. You talk about the 9th Brigade, the

7 commander of the 9th Brigade. You mention the 2nd Independent Brigade [as

8 interpreted] also. But you don't mention the 10th Brigade at all, which

9 may tend to indicate that at the time you drafted your report it didn't

10 even cross your mind. In other words, you didn't even think that they may

11 have been present.

12 A. I don't know. I know that they came to Jablanica. So they came

13 with those units. As to where they were housed or whether they were in

14 Grabovica, I had no way of telling, because their commander at the time

15 did not leave Sarajevo. Had he been there, in all probability I would

16 have been able to know and to find out whether they were there or not.

17 But I repeat once again: They had no insignia on their uniforms, and I

18 had information that a part of the 9th, a part of the 10th, and a part of

19 the independent battalion had left Sarajevo.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

21 [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions?

23 I see -- no?

24 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

25 MR. WEINER: Just a few.

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Further.

2 Further examination by Mr. Weiner:

3 Q. Sir, did someone tell you that the 10th was going to be arriving?

4 A. Part of the 10th Brigade. I heard that a part of the 10th, a

5 part of the 9th Brigade, and a part of the Independent Battalion would

6 come.

7 Q. Now, who told you that?

8 MR. MORRISSEY: That doesn't arise out of Judge El Mahdi's

9 question in the least, with respect.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that Judge El Mahdi's question

11 mentioned that -- the presence of the 10th Brigade.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Certainly.

13 JUDGE LIU: So -- so --

14 MR. MORRISSEY: As to who told. But anyway, if it's going to

15 assist the Court, I won't persist with the objection.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you.

17 Witness, you may answer that question.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember who exactly told

19 me. Quite simply there was talk about the fact that units from Sarajevo,

20 parts of those brigades were supposed to come from Sarajevo. But who

21 exactly told me, I don't remember.

22 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, there -- there may be a translation

25 issue. It's not something that needs to be -- needs to trouble the

1 Court -- or the witness, frankly. We'll seek a clarification of it at a

2 later time.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: So -- otherwise, nothing arising.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well, at this stage, is there anything to

6 tender.

7 Mr. Weiner?

8 MR. WEINER: Yes. There are a group of MFI documents, MFI215,

9 225, 235, 232, and 130.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, are they admitted already?

11 MR. WEINER: No, they're all pending admission. Most of them are

12 Defence.

13 JUDGE LIU: I see.

14 Mr. Morrissey.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I wasn't sure if ours

16 had already been admitted in. MFI282 --

17 [Defence counsel confer]

18 MR. MORRISSEY: No. Well, MFI283 might have been admitted

19 already. Yes, Your Honours, as to those other ones that my learned friend

20 Mr. Weiner has referred to, there's no objection to them. I think that

21 the position with those that they were admitted. I thought they were

22 admitted already, but I --

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, but since you are no --

24 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm not objecting in the least, no.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes.

1 MR. MORRISSEY: But it's just that there's a lot of these --

2 these documents which we -- perhaps we need to have a -- a little talk

3 with the Prosecutors and clean it up. We don't object to the ones that

4 are offered here.

5 JUDGE LIU: I see. So those documents are admitted into the

6 evidence.

7 On the part of the Defence, are there any documents to tender?

8 MR. MORRISSEY: No, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

10 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to

11 give your evidence. Madam Usher will show you out of the room, and we

12 wish you a pleasant journey back home.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE LIU: So, Mr. Re, I believe that the next witness is ready

16 for testimony.

17 MR. RE: Yes, Mr. Ahmed Kaliman. I call him as the Prosecution's

18 next witness.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good day.

24 JUDGE LIU: Or good afternoon.

25 Well, could you please make the solemn declaration in accordance

1 with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

5 WITNESS: AHMED KALIMAN

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Re.

8 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Examined by Mr. Re:

10 Q. Mr. Kaliman, your name is Ahmed Kaliman, and you were born on the

11 6th of July, 1971. Your current occupation is unemployed. And in 1993,

12 you were a member of the assault or reconnaissance group of the 9th

13 Motorised Brigade in Sarajevo; is that correct?

14 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, we don't want to --

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. METTRAUX: -- Object as early. But I think the term used by

17 my friend should be clarified. The two units, the assault and

18 reconnaissance are actually two different entities, and that should be

19 made very clear to the witness.

20 MR. RE: Well, I'm indebted to my friend. I'm sure that the

21 witness can answer.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well -- you have to be precise.

23 MR. RE: Well, my information from the witness in my proofing was

24 that it was called the sabotage/reconnaissance brigade.

25 JUDGE LIU: You may put this question to the witness directly.

1 MR. RE:

2 Q. Let's go back to the beginning. Your name is Mr. Ahmed Kaliman;

3 is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And your date of birth, the 6th of July,1971.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you unemployed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In 1993, were you a member of the 9th Motorised Brigade in

10 Sarajevo?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was the name of the -- the group in which you were a member

13 of within the 9th Motorised Brigade?

14 A. Reconnaissance assault unit -- company.

15 Q. Is that the same as a sabotage brigade or unit?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Sabotage unit.

17 MR. RE: Does that clarify it sufficiently for Mr. Mettraux's

18 purposes?

19 MR. METTRAUX: I'm very grateful to the Prosecution for the

20 clarification. Thank you.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 MR. RE:

23 Q. Mr. Kaliman, I want to show you a statement which I intend to

24 tender under Rule 89(F). I have two copies, one in Bosnian and one in

25 English.

1 MR. RE: Could these please be shown to the witness.

2 Q. Please just look at those two documents. Is that the Rule 89 --

3 is that the statement you prepared based upon your statement to the

4 Prosecutor in 2000 and does it bear your signature on the bottom of each

5 page? Is that the document you signed yesterday?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it true and correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The copy to your right, is that the English copy which you also

10 signed yesterday?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. RE: I tender those two statements as the witness's evidence

13 in chief, and in addition I wish to -- or I need to show him three

14 photographs which are in evidence. The purpose -- I have to show them to

15 him because, it being e-court, he has to do it in court, and have him mark

16 on the three photographs, and that will be his evidence in chief.

17 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

18 MR. METTRAUX: No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. This document will be admitted

20 into evidence.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P285.

22 MR. RE:

23 Q. Now, Mr. Kaliman, I wish to show you three photographs of things

24 which are referred to in the statement which we have just tendered into

25 evidence.

1 Firstly, in your statement, you referred to --

2 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown, I'm sorry, Exhibit

3 P78 -- photograph P78.

4 Q. In your statement, you referred to you and other members of the

5 reconnaissance -- or sabotage/reconnaissance company, as you call it,

6 staying in a house several hundred metres from the main part of the

7 village. What I want you to do is to look at photograph P78, which has

8 some numbers and some arrows. It should be to the left of you, if you

9 look at it. And can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, which house it

10 was, if you can.

11 A. 2, 2a, or -- or 3, 3a. I cannot remember exactly. It's not

12 clear.

13 Q. It was one of those three houses; is that what you're saying?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. In your statement, you also refer at paragraph 10 to visiting the

16 house where Sejo Karadzic and Haris Karagic was staying that night.

17 Again, is that house marked on that photograph? And if so, can you please

18 just tell us the number of it.

19 A. I don't see a number for it on this photograph.

20 Q. All right. Which area was it? There are -- there are houses

21 marked 1 to 9. Was it in the area in which the houses were marked 1 to 9

22 or was it somewhere else?

23 A. No, no, it's not in this area. There are two houses that are not

24 marked, and it's one of those two houses.

25 Q. All right. Are they to the left or the right of this photograph?

1 A. On the right side.

2 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown photograph P3.

3 Q. In your statement, Mr. Kaliman, at paragraph 16, you refer to

4 Ramiz Delalic lining the soldiers up in the meadow near the river. I just

5 want you to mark on the photograph with the pen, which the court officer

6 will bring to you, with an arrow pointing down to where it was that you

7 were lined up.

8 A. In one of these two locations for sure.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence, please.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Any objections?

12 MR. METTRAUX: None, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: It's admitted into the evidence.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P286.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. The final photograph I wish to show you, Mr. Kaliman, is photo

17 P86. I'm going to show you -- it's an overhead photograph of the

18 Grabovica area. And my question relates to photograph 15 of your

19 statement, where you refer to coming to the village entrance and seeing

20 four to six bodies in the bank and on the Neretva River.

21 What I want you to do is look at the photograph to your left

22 there. Can you see in that photograph the area where you saw the bodies.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Would you -- would it assist if --

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, we haven't got that picture yet.

1 MR. RE: On my screen, I've got the right one.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

3 MR. METTRAUX: We have it now.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

5 MR. RE:

6 Q. Do you have the right photograph now, Mr. Kaliman?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, do you see the -- the place there where -- the place where

9 you saw the bodies? If so, can you please get the pen and mark with a

10 large arrow going downwards, with an arrowhead at the bottom, where the

11 bodies were.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Can you make -- could you just make the -- make it a bit -- a

14 bit longer, please, the arrow. Just a bigger one, please.

15 A. [Marks] Is this all right?

16 Q. Yes, I just want to clarify which side of the river the bodies

17 were on. Was it the side which you've drawn the top of the arrow, that

18 is, the red, or was it the other side?

19 A. The bottom of the arrow.

20 Q. You mean the same side as where you've drawn the arrow? There

21 are two sides of the river there.

22 A. This side where the bottom of the arrow is.

23 MR. RE: Is it clear to the Trial Chamber? I can't see whether

24 it's on --

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, to me it's very clear. How about the Defence?

1 MR. METTRAUX: Well, the witness could simply be asked whether it

2 would be on the north side of the river or the south side of the river,

3 or, I mean, as -- on this picture, east or west, I mean, depending on what

4 the witness would prefer. Or to put a dot on the side that he's talking

5 about.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

7 MR. RE:

8 Q. Is it the top -- the top side of the river or the bottom side of

9 the river in the photograph?

10 A. Can I put a dot there? Then that would make things easy for

11 everyone, I think.

12 Q. Please.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. All right. You're indicating, I think, on the bottom side of the

15 photograph, the river-bank on the bottom side, the bottom half of the

16 photograph.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence too, please.

20 JUDGE LIU: There's no objections, I guess.

21 MR. METTRAUX: The Defence is happy with the dot. Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It's admitted into the evidence.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P287.

24 MR. RE: That's the evidence in chief of this witness. I just

25 wish to read a brief summary of his -- of the contents of his evidence,

1 which will take me about a moment -- a minute to do so.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, if there's no disputes about the contents of

3 the summaries, are there any need to read it out?

4 MR. RE: For the purpose of the public proceedings, I -- that's

5 the -- that's the practice in the Milosevic case, the Krajisnik case, that

6 we read a brief summary so that the public and everyone outside the court

7 knows what -- what the witness has testified about.

8 JUDGE LIU: If you insist, you may.

9 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 A brief summary of Mr. Kaliman's evidence is that in 1993, as he

11 said, he was in the sabotage/reconnaissance group in the 9th Motorised

12 Brigade.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Would you please read more slowly, thank you.

14 MR. RE: Noting that I've given a copy to the interpreters, I

15 certainly will.

16 Everyone in the brigade, including Mr. Kaliman, considered Ramiz

17 Delalic as its commander. He was ordered to Herzegovina in late summer,

18 early autumn 1993, and he travelled to Grabovica with other soldiers from

19 his unit.

20 The reconnaissance group billeted itself in a vacant house

21 several hundred metres from the main part of the village, about 15 to 20

22 soldiers stayed in that house.

23 On the first day of their arrival, they rested. That night he

24 met Sejo Karadzic - Karagic, sorry - and Haris Rajkic in that house and

25 those two and others came later to Mr. Kaliman's house and ate with them

1 there.

2 On the day of the shooting, he heard shooting coming from

3 different directions. He stayed in the village for at least two days. On

4 possibly the second day, he and another soldier attempted to walk to

5 Jablanica to buy some items. He was stopped at a checkpoint on the way to

6 Jablanica by military police, who ordered them to return to Grabovica.

7 On the way back, neither the entrance to Grabovica, he saw the

8 bodies of about four to six males in civilian clothing lying face down.

9 Two or three were floating in the Neretva River and one or two were half

10 on the river-bank. The bodies had not been there when he walked along the

11 road several hours earlier.

12 After this, Ramiz Delalic lined the soldiers up, asking for

13 volunteers to go into battle. Mr. Kaliman felt depressed by what he had

14 seen and said that he did not want to go into battle. He and the other

15 members of the reconnaissance group left Grabovica for Sarajevo. When the

16 soldiers returned from battle, possibly the same night. He was first

17 questioned about the Grabovica killings in April 2000. That's the

18 summary.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 Could I ask how long your cross-examination will last,

21 Mr. Mettraux?

22 MR. METTRAUX: Probably between five and ten minutes,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's try to finish your cross-examination, and

25 I apologise for the delay to the -- this afternoon's sitting.

1 MR. METTRAUX: Yes. And we're grateful to the court staff for

2 letting us continue a bit over the time.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Mettraux:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kaliman. My name is Guenael Mettraux and I'm

5 appearing as co-counsel for Sefer Halilovic.

6 You've indicated in your evidence in chief that in September 1993

7 you were a member of the 9th Brigade; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you had joined this particular brigade because it was

10 defending that part or an area of Sarajevo where you came from; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that was also the area of the city which you knew best and

14 the area which you were keenest to defend because part of your family was

15 still living in that area; isn't that so?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. And at the time, sir, that brigade was so large that you wouldn't

18 know every single member of the brigade; is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. What you knew, however, sir, is that within that brigade there

21 were a number of battalions and within those battalions a number of

22 companies; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And among those companies within the 9th Brigade were, for

25 instance, a military police company?

1 A. Could you please repeat the question.

2 Q. Certainly. I apologise. There were -- you've indicated that

3 there were a number of companies within the 9th Brigade. I'm going to put

4 to you a number of such companies, and if you could confirm or, if not,

5 indicate whether or not there was such a company within that brigade.

6 And I've indicated to you that there was a military police

7 company within the 9th Brigade; is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. There was also a -- an artillery company; is that correct?

10 A. Probably.

11 Q. There was also an assault company; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, there was.

13 Q. There was a logistics company?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. There also was a company called the sabotage and reconnaissance

16 company, of which you were a member; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that reconnaissance company, of which you were a member, were

19 made up of approximately 60 men, I think you've indicated in your evidence

20 in chief, at the relevant time, that is, in September of 1993; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the commander of that company was a person named Kumbara

24 Dzafer; is that correct?

25 A. Correct.

1 Q. But Kumbara Dzafer didn't go with you to Herzegovina; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And in fact, most of that reconnaissance company didn't go to

5 Herzegovina with you; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. And, in fact, only 15 or 20 members of that company

8 had been selected within the company to go to Herzegovina, including

9 yourself; is that correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And to lead those 15 or 20 men to Herzegovina, an individual --

12 I'm sorry, an individual nicknamed Zuti had been selected; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And, in fact, the real name of Zuti is Mustafa Rustemagic

16 [phoen]; is that correct?

17 A. I know the name, the first name, but I'm not sure about the last

18 name. It's possible.

19 Q. So you know that this person's first name would be Mustafa; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And as far as you know or as far as you can tell, he was the only

23 individual with the nickname Zuti within the 9th Brigade; is that correct?

24 A. It was a large brigade, and there were many nicknames. I can't

25 remember all.

1 Q. But about nickname, sir, this Mustafa Zuti was a different person

2 than Mustafa Hota, known was Musa; is that correct?

3 A. That's right. It's not the same person.

4 Q. I have one last question, sir: You've indicated, I think, in

5 your evidence in chief that you didn't go into combat; is that correct?

6 You stayed in the village of Grabovica?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. But a number of individuals from your brigade did, in fact, go to

9 combat; is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Is it also correct, sir, that within a few days of having left

12 for combat those same individuals came back to Grabovica and that you

13 immediately left for Sarajevo together? Is that correct?

14 A. We went to Sarajevo together, yes.

15 MR. METTRAUX: That will be all the questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 Any redirect?

18 MR. RE: No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness thank you very much for coming to The

22 Hague to give your evidence. After we are adjourned, Madam Usher will

23 show you out of the room. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.

24 At this stage, I would like to request the Prosecution to furnish

25 the proofing notes of the next witness before 3.00 this afternoon, if it

1 has been done.

2 MR. WEINER: It's already been done, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much.

4 So the hearing is adjourned.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of

7 March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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