Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

1 Monday, 4 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. It is Case Number

7 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Before we hear the witness,

10 are there any matters that the parties would like to bring to the

11 attention to this Bench?

12 Mr. Weiner?

13 THE WITNESS: No, not off hand.

14 JUDGE LIU: I have a question to ask you. How many witnesses are

15 there in this week?

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, this is a very short week. We have one

17 witness for today, one witness for Wednesday, and one witness for

18 Thursday. As you recall -- I believe it was a week and a half ago, on

19 Thursday, the Thursday before the long weekend, we were notified late in

20 the afternoon, probably between 5.00 and 6.00 that in addition to

21 Muzenovic being taken off the list, the witnesses that were to follow,

22 which would have been this week on Grabovica, were all to be removed and

23 we were to move the Uzdol case up. We did that. We moved the Uzdol case

24 up. However, we were only able to bring in three witnesses this week.

25 In addition to that, we have for next week seven witnesses. We

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1 are going to run two witnesses Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. Wednesday

2 could drop down to one because one of the witnesses is pregnant.

3 Thursday, Friday, into the following Monday, I believe, Mr. Karavelic will

4 follow. And then next week will also be a full week of witnesses with

5 another three, right up to the break for the contempt hearing.

6 We apologise but with the very quick switch from the Grabovica to

7 the Uzdol case, we were only able to obtain three witnesses for the week.

8 It's also possible - I can't say it's definite - it's possible

9 that we could even run two days this week, that Wednesday we might be able

10 to place two witnesses on, but I won't be able to let you know probably

11 for another day.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. What are you going to do with that pregnant

13 witness? Are you going to drop her from the witness list or are you

14 proposing some other way?

15 MR. WEINER: She is visiting the doctor tomorrow, and we'll have a

16 better idea when she meets her doctor and let the doctor make the decision

17 as to whether or not she's able to travel. We might be able to do a very

18 quick videolink or some other process, whether it's 92 bis or whatever.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And the -- would you please file a list

20 of the witnesses until 22nd of April.

21 MR. WEINER: We did very late -- very late -- right around 5.00 on

22 last Friday, so the registrar and legal officer should have it. You'll

23 probably get it sometime this morning, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.

25 And Mr. Morrissey.

Page 3

1 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: I understand that the other day you mentioned that you

3 have some submissions concerning of the witness Karic's deposition.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: Are you going to do it now or maybe we could do it

6 sometime later this week? It depends on whether you need some time for

7 preparation.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I'm -- I had in mind to do it a

9 little later in the week because I knew that the Prosecutors were doing

10 what -- doing the best they could, were unable to fill up the week. So it

11 may be appropriate to do that at a later time. The witness today is one

12 who we could possibly finish today if we get on with it, effectively. So

13 in deference to that, I wasn't planning to raise that today, and I

14 expected to raise it later in the week.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Could I raise some other matters?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: The first one is that as to -- we didn't realise

19 there was a witness who was pregnant, but a person who is pregnant has got

20 a very strong claim on the videolink, I would have thought, Your Honour.

21 The Defence won't create any difficulties about the. The Prosecutor can

22 let us know anyway in due course.

23 The next thing is that my learned friend's advised me over the

24 weekend that the Prosecutor wishes to add some exhibits to the 60 -- to

25 the exhibit list with this witness who are not on the list. Now, those

Page 4

1 are exhibits which were always part of the Prosecution brief and in fact

2 were annexed to the statement of the witness. And after speaking with

3 Mr. Weiner, we've indicated to him that we agree that the Prosecution --

4 of course it's up to the Chamber, but the Defence consents to the

5 Prosecutor adding those three -- there maps, and they could assist in one

6 form or another, so we don't reject that.

7 The other thing is, Your Honour, that the Prosecutor has indicated

8 they will lead through this witness some death certificates. And

9 initially I had some Defence paranoia about this, but what I'm told is by

10 the Prosecutor is that this witness he was a local official, and these

11 documents are led through him simply to prove the fact of the death of

12 those people, not cause of death or any medical matters, and on that basis

13 I have got no objection to those being led either. So just so we know in

14 advance that there is no objection to them.

15 I make those points and now I'll stop.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

17 Well, as for the videolink witness, I hope we could be informed as

18 early as possible because it will take weeks for the preparation for that

19 videolink.

20 And, Mr. Morrissey, I thank you very much for your cooperation

21 concerning with the exhibits as well as the death certificates for this

22 witness.

23 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, having said that, could we have the witness,

25 please.

Page 5

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

4 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

8 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

9 MR. WEINER: Thank you.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examined by Mr. Weiner:

13 Q. Good morning, Witness.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. Would you state your name for the record, please.

16 A. Kazo Zelenika.

17 Q. And could you tell us your age and date of birth.

18 A. The 24th of February, 1956. I'm about 50.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, I'm going to go through some questions to move

20 this along quick where we just need a yes or no answer, and they concern

21 some background. And then we'll get to the actual time with you in the

22 HVO military we'll have you give your full answers.

23 You were born Uzdol, sir?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you're currently living in Uzdol with your family?

Page 6

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And your family includes your wife and 11 children?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You went to religious school in Prozor and you graduated a school

5 for administration --

6 A. No, in Split.

7 Q. In Split, sorry. And you graduated a school of administration in

8 Mostar?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You became the village registrar in Uzdol in 1988?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the registrar maintains the records of births, marriages,

13 deaths, and so on?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, you were a member of the JNA, a Yugoslav People's Army, for

16 15 months in 1976 and 1977?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You were mobilised in March/April of 1992 by the HVO army?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You served in logistics?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you delivered meals to the troops as part of your logistics

23 duties?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And finally, during the war you remained in the village as the

Page 7

1 registrar of Uzdol and a logistics officer where you brought food to the

2 troops?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Let's move to the beginning of 1993, the end of 1992, beginning of

5 1993. Where was your family living?

6 A. My family was living in Prozor. My wife and five children were

7 living there, and my parents, myself, and I -- a daughter of mine were

8 living in Uzdol.

9 Q. Now, why was half of your family living in Prozor?

10 A. Well, the war broke out and an order was issued for women and

11 small children to leave the village because of the shelling.

12 Q. And you remained, though, in Uzdol and you indicated with your

13 parents and which daughter?

14 A. Jadranka my eldest daughter.

15 Q. And did you live in -- what type of house was it? A house, a

16 farm, an apartment complex? What did you live in?

17 A. It was a family house, a small village house.

18 Q. Thank you. And could you describe Uzdol before I show you some

19 pictures, could you describe it to the Judges?

20 A. Well, it's a mountainous place, it has a number of hamlets,

21 Rajici, Cer, a school of Zelenike, Kriz, Pale, Bobari. Budimi. It's a

22 village that has four or five hamlets and a hundred inhabitants in it.

23 Q. Sir, I would like to show you a paragraph having ERN number

24 0402-0894.

25 A. Okay.

Page 8

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 298.

2 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

3 Q. Sir, do you see that picture in front of you?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. And could you tell us what that picture depicts?

6 A. It depicts the village of Uzdol and part of Here above in the

7 corner.

8 Q. And is that a fair and accurate representation of the school as it

9 existed in September 1993?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Sir, is there a building known as the school?

12 A. There is.

13 Q. Could you use the special pencil that the usher will give to you.

14 Circle it and put over it a 1 over it, please.

15 A. I've marked it in the circle.

16 Q. Thank you. All right. And is the church -- do you see the church

17 in the village?

18 A. I do. There are two of them.

19 Q. Could -- are they next to each other?

20 A. There's about 50 metres between them.

21 Q. And could you put a 2 between those two churches.

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. Can you see your home in that photograph?

24 A. I can.

25 Q. Could you please circle your home and put a 3 over that.

Page 9

1 A. There's a stable by the house in this new photograph because it

2 had been set on fire before and there's a smokehouse, too.

3 Q. Thank you. Your neighbours, the Zelics, can you see their home in

4 this photograph?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you please circle that with a 4.

7 A. The first one is the old one and the other one is -- is the new

8 one.

9 Q. And did both the old and new homes exist in September 1993?

10 A. Yes. They lived in the old house. They hadn't moved into the new

11 one.

12 Q. Do you see the house of Domin Rajic in that photograph?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you please circle that and place a 5.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Do you see the home of the Prkovic family?

17 A. I'm sorry. The surname isn't quite clear to me. Perkovic.

18 Perkovic, it's not Prkovic.

19 Q. Oh, Petkovic?

20 A. Perkovic. Yes, I can see it.

21 Q. And you put a 6 next to that. Is that the Grubesas house --

22 A. Number 6.

23 Q. Yes --

24 A. I can see it.

25 Q. Can you put a 7 on that, please.

Page 10

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. And finally, can you see the home of Kata and Mato Ljubic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And could you put a -- an 8 next to that, please.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. The home of Luca and Janja Zelenika; can you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you place a 9 at that house?

9 A. This one is Janja's, and the other one can't be seen very well.

10 You can only see Janja's, but the other one is in an orchard so you can't

11 see it well. Number 9, is that the one?

12 Q. So 9 will just be Luca's.

13 A. Luca's house. And Janja's is that -- they are next to each other,

14 but you can't see it because of the plum trees.

15 Q. And finally, Dragica Zelenika?

16 A. I can see it.

17 Q. Could you put a 10 next to that house.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. WEINER: I'd like to offer that, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I guess there's no objections so it's admitted

22 into evidence.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P299.

24 MR. WEINER: Thank you. We'll -- there's no need, Madam Usher.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I don't object to the admission of

Page 11

1 the previous photo either. Sorry, I just thought that there were --


3 MR. MORRISSEY: I thought it was 298, so I don't know if they're

4 going into one.

5 JUDGE LIU: There are two photos. One is the original. That is

6 29 --

7 MR. MORRISSEY: 298, I think.



10 Q. Mr. Zelenika, let's move to September 13th, 1993. Could you tell

11 us where you stayed that night.

12 A. That night I stayed in Prozor with my wife and children.

13 Q. Now, the next morning what time did you get up, as best you can

14 recall?

15 A. I got up at about 6.00, perhaps even at 5.00. Someone said that

16 Uzdol was burning and we immediately set off there.

17 Q. Where were you when you were told that Uzdol was burning?

18 A. I was on the balcony of the building I was in.

19 Q. And what was the distance between Prozor, where you were, and

20 Uzdol?

21 A. About 12 kilometres.

22 Q. Could you see anything in the direction of Uzdol after you had

23 heard it was burning?

24 A. You can't see anything from Prozor because Prozor is down below.

25 It's only after you've travelled for about a kilometre from Prozor that

Page 12

1 you can see Uzdol, and then you could see fire and smoke. There were

2 buildings on fire.

3 Q. Could you hear anything from that direction?

4 A. You could hear the sound of shooting, but it's quite far away, but

5 sometimes you could hear the sound of shells exploding. That's from the

6 point from which you can see Uzdol.

7 Q. Okay. Now, you said "we set off for Uzdol" or we set off there,

8 who did you leave with to go to Uzdol?

9 A. I left with Rajic and Slavko Zelenika, my driver. He drove a TAM

10 vehicle. Or a driver who drove a TAM vehicle.

11 Q. Now, as you drove to Uzdol, did you meet anyone along the way?

12 A. In Perici we met someone. Ivan Stojanovic's child was there, and

13 the child was running along the road and crying. And the child said, They

14 have killed my mother up in Kriz, Anica Stojanovic.

15 Q. And did he ever tell you, this child, young Mr. Stojanovic, who

16 had killed his mother?

17 A. He said, Hero Saban has killed my mother. This person died, not

18 in the war but later on.

19 Q. Did you know Hero Saban or Saban Hero?

20 A. Yes, I did. He worked in Gradina, a company in Prozor called

21 Gradina.

22 Q. And do you know if he fought in any -- in either of the armies?

23 A. No, I didn't know about that. When he was mobilised, he was

24 probably in the army of --

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what the witness

Page 13

1 said at the end.


3 Q. Who did you say, sir, which army?

4 A. In the BH army. Because we were the HVO and they were the ABiH.

5 I couldn't know who was among their ranks.

6 Q. You said "we were the HVO." What was the ethnic composition of

7 the village of Uzdol?

8 A. The village of Uzdol is a purely Croatian village. And the other

9 neighbouring villages, Ljubunci, Kranjcici, and Donja Vas, are mixed. And

10 the village of Here, a village in our local commune, was a purely Bosniak

11 village.

12 Q. And of what ethnic group do you belong to, sir?

13 A. I'm a Croat myself. There were no Serbs in any of the villages in

14 our area.

15 Q. Okay. Now, did you continue on after speaking with

16 Mr. Stojanovic?

17 A. We drove on to Uzdol. The little one was scared like a child. He

18 drove on towards Prozor and we headed back to Uzdol.

19 Q. Now, where did you eventually arrive in Uzdol?

20 A. We arrived at about 7.00, half past 7.00.

21 Q. And where did you park?

22 A. We parked about two or three kilometres from Uzdol itself towards

23 Kracko Polje, between Kolanusici and Kracko Polje.

24 Q. And what did you do when you parked two to three kilometres away?

25 A. We left the TAM vehicle right there and we walked on along the

Page 14

1 road. We could see all the villages along the road burning.

2 Q. Where did you go first in Uzdol?

3 A. I first went to Rade Stojanovic's house. We met some civilians

4 who were on the run. Some had been wounded and they were running to

5 Prozor. We passed Mijo Maric's house and reached the north section of the

6 village where the school building used to be. We took a shortcut.

7 Q. What did you observe in the area of the school?

8 A. Once we reached Uzdol, I saw a dead body and I recognised Pero

9 Kovcalija who was an HVO soldier. It was lying about 10 metres from a

10 house belonging to a man named Cuba. There was another body there

11 belonging to a Bosniak, a member of the BH army. It's just that I didn't

12 know his name.

13 Q. What did you do next, sir?

14 A. I went to my own village, and at the crossroads where the roads

15 fork - one goes to the church and the other goes to the Zelenika house - I

16 saw the body of Slavko Mendes who was an ambulance driver. His hands were

17 tied behind his back and he was killed by a firearm. His hands were tied

18 by a length of wire.

19 Q. And how was he dressed, sir? Meaning in a uniform or in plain

20 clothes?

21 A. Uniform. He was an ambulance driver.

22 Q. Okay, sir. I'm going to show you some diagrams which I'd like you

23 to look at.

24 A. If I can see it.

25 Q. Could we start off with the one with an A in the right corner,

Page 15

1 which is 0293-7633, that's the ERN.

2 A. You can go ahead.

3 Q. Okay. Sir, do you recognise this document in front of you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What is it?

6 A. This is a sketch that I drew showing -- well, there are some

7 houses missing here, but you can see the school building. This is the

8 road to Zelenika and my own village. Rajic next to the school building,

9 and then further down, Ljubic, Kata, and Mata. The next house is the

10 Perkovic's house, and then Mara Grubesa's house where she was killed.

11 Luca and Janja Zelenika. Dragica Zelenika. And then the next house down

12 the road is -- next to my own house, there's another house that belongs to

13 me. And then the Zelic's house. And here is where the road forks off to

14 Here.

15 Q. All right. Let's start -- or, before we start, who drew this

16 map -- I'm sorry, diagram?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. Now, does this -- this diagram follow the route that you took

19 through the hamlet of Zelenika?

20 A. Yes. That was where I went first and that's why I put the

21 number 1 there. I went from the school up the road.

22 Q. Okay. Now, you said that you saw a body of an ambulance driver --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- named Slavko Mendes. And could you just tell us where on that

25 document --

Page 16

1 A. Slavko Mendes, yes. It was -- it was hereabouts. There's

2 something better over here, the one that is in colour. There's a monument

3 that his wife had had erected for him near the school. You can see --

4 Q. All right. We'll get back to that shortly.

5 MR. WEINER: But may the record reflect that the witness pointed

6 to the square building without any name to the right of the school as the

7 place where he saw the body of Slavko Mendes.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, can I make a suggestion. It's going

10 to be hard to read from --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This isn't. This isn't --

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry. I don't want to interrupt the witness

14 and perhaps he can explain later. But I just wanted to say that it's

15 going to be hard to put it back together again if we're comparing the map

16 to the record. What might be a good idea is if the witness was given a

17 clean copy of this and he can mark it as he wants to, using his memory, to

18 say where the bodies that he saw were located.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think that's a good idea.


21 Q. Could you put a 1 --

22 A. Which one are we going to use?

23 Q. Could you put a 1 -- a circle, a 1, in the area where you saw the

24 body of Slavko Mendes, please.

25 A. This is not a house. I just put a box there so you know where the

Page 17

1 body was found. There is an old farming cooperative just further down the

2 road, but this is where I found the body.

3 Q. You put an X there. Could you put a 1 over that, please.

4 A. Number 1.

5 Q. Now, where did you go next after you saw the body of Slavko

6 Mendes?

7 A. We went to Domin Rajic's house. We found Ivo and Domin's wife,

8 Ivka. That's the house next to mine on the other side of the road.

9 Q. Could you put a 2 there?

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. Now, what dead bodies did you find there?

12 A. Here is where I found Domin, his son Ivo, and his wife Ivka Rajic.

13 Four or five metres further down from them was Zorka Glibo. She wasn't

14 right next to the house but rather a short distance away.

15 Q. Do you recall how Ivo was dressed?

16 A. Ivo was an HVO soldier. I can't remember what he had. I know he

17 had a bulge on his head. He had been cracked over the head by someone or

18 something.

19 Q. And his mother, Ivka, and his father, Domin, how were they

20 dressed?

21 A. Local wear, traditional. They weren't wearing uniforms. They

22 were plain civilians.

23 Q. And - am I wrong - was Ivka the mother of Ivo or the wife of Ivo?

24 A. You're not wrong, no.

25 Q. So Ivka was the wife of Ivo?

Page 18

1 A. His mother, yes.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you.

3 A. Domin was his father.

4 Q. Thank you. And you said that you saw a third person or a fourth

5 person there, a Zorka Glibo?

6 A. Yes. Her body was lying about four or five metres from the house.

7 Q. And do you know who the Zorka Glibo was?

8 A. She was Marko Glibo's wife from the village of Bobari, a village

9 halfway between Here and -- what's it called, Budin. There were about

10 three or four houses there because war was closing in and they went

11 further down to Uzdol. One was out in the country and another was staying

12 with Domin as a refugee.

13 Q. And how was she dressed? In a uniform or plain clothes?

14 A. Plain clothes, civilian clothes.

15 Q. And what was their condition? Were they alive or dead when you

16 saw these four people?

17 A. All dead.

18 Q. What did you do after you saw these bodies? Where did you go

19 next?

20 A. I went to the house. About 40 or 50 metres from their house is

21 Mate Ljubicic's house that was on fire. Mate Ljubicic was in front of the

22 house and Kata Ljubicic, his bride, was behind the house. They were both

23 dead and the house was on fire.

24 Q. On the diagram could you place a 3 at that house.

25 A. Mate was right here and Kata was over there. She tried to run to

Page 19

1 the church.

2 Q. Now, was Kata Ljubic related to you in any manner?

3 A. She was my godmother. That's what we call it.

4 Q. Did you see her often in Uzdol?

5 A. I saw her often. She lived near where I worked, near the school

6 building.

7 Q. Okay. And do you know if Mato or Kata Ljubic were members of the

8 military?

9 A. Mato is an elderly person. Kata was a little, you know, before we

10 brought bread -- she helped us knead dough for the bread. Then when we

11 got new bread she left her old job because she was still quite young.

12 Q. How were they dressed, if you recall? Were they wearing uniforms

13 or were they in plain clothes, civilian clothes?

14 A. Civilian clothes, plain clothes, both Mate and Kata.

15 Q. Where did you go after the Ljubic house?

16 A. I headed down the road to my house and reached Kata and Stipo

17 Perkovic's house. Kata's body was lying in the house; she was dead.

18 Stipo had somehow managed to leave the house and he survived. He had

19 managed to escape. And he didn't even realise that his wife had been

20 killed, so he just took off without her.

21 Q. Can you please place a 4 on the Kata and Mato Perkovic house -- or

22 Stipo Perkovic. Place a 4 on the diagram.

23 A. I've placed it where you can see the roof of the house.

24 Q. And where was Kata located?

25 A. Kata was just outside the door. She was wearing black. She had

Page 20

1 thick-lensed glasses because her eyesight was very poor.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, where did you go after the -- after that house,

3 sir, after the Perkovic house?

4 A. I walked on down this road to this house over here Gorcic [phoen]

5 Kovcalija's and Slavko's house had been set on fire as well as the barns.

6 There was another barn that was on fire. There's another path leading to

7 Grubesa's house. The barn was on fire, and people said that his wife,

8 Mara, had burned alive in the house. She got locked up with their cattle

9 inside the barn. The barn collapsed and then her husband later found her

10 there. We entered the house, and we found her mother-in-law dead inside

11 the house, Marica Zelic. She later died in a mental hospital near

12 Travnik.

13 Q. All right. Let's take it one step at a time. Could you first put

14 a 5 where Mara Grubesa's house was?

15 A. Grubesas -- Grubesas. This is Mara's house and the barn must be

16 over here. Mara is right there. There's a path there for tractors, so

17 the barn is on this side of the road and the house is the other side of

18 the road.

19 Q. The barn that was burning, were you able to enter it at the time?

20 A. No. There was fire all over the place. It had some sort of a tin

21 roof which had collapsed due to the heat. You couldn't come anywhere near

22 the barn.

23 Q. Did you ask anyone where Mara was?

24 A. We did. We asked her mother, the one we found at Pero's house,

25 but she knew nothing. There was some sort of a creek behind the house.

Page 21

1 She took refuge there and she survived, but she didn't know things, she

2 said. Mara was off to release the cattle from the barn and she came to

3 grieve there. Her daughter Janja was also there. The soldiers called her

4 to come with them, but she started running and was fired at. She -- she

5 caught a bullet with one of her fingers, but she didn't even know about

6 her mother, Mara.

7 Q. Was Mara ever seen after September 14th, 1993?

8 A. No, never. She was buried along with all the other victims.

9 Q. Well, were her remains ever found in that barn?

10 A. Well, her husband said he'd found something. I have no idea what

11 exactly he found. He wasn't clear about it. It was next to a wooden

12 door. The barn had a wooden door. There was something there apparently

13 where he claimed to have found something, but I really can't say myself.

14 Q. And is there any memorial there today for her, Mara Grubesas?

15 A. Yes. Pavo, her husband, had the area cleared where the stable

16 used to be. He said he would never build a new stable, a new barn, there.

17 He had a granite slab placed there, 50 by 60 centimetres, carved her name

18 in it and her year of birth and year of death. And the slab is still

19 there as we speak, right next to where the stable used to be, the barn,

20 and there are always flowers around the slab.

21 Q. Now, sir, where did you go after Mara Grubesa's house?

22 A. I went on to Luca Zelenika's house and Janja's house which is

23 after Palo's house. They're about 70 to 100 metres apart. Luca was lying

24 dead outside the house, outside the door. She was an old woman aged over

25 60 and Janja was next to the wall. Her body was lying there. Apparently

Page 22

1 she had tried to run from one house to another.

2 Q. Now, could you put a 6 in the area where Luca and Janja Zelenika's

3 homes were?

4 A. This is where I found Luca, and Janja's body was on the other

5 side. Luca was actually inside the house and Janja was near the wall

6 outside.

7 Q. Now, Luca, was she related to you in any way?

8 A. Yes. She was my father's sister-in-law, and Janja was also a

9 relative of my father's. They were his brother's children.

10 Q. Where did you go next, sir?

11 A. I took the path to Dragica Zelenika's house. The house was on

12 fire, so was the barn. There was an area covered with concrete next to

13 the house. Dragica's body was there. She had been half burned. When the

14 roof caved it, it probably caught her. She still had her socks on and her

15 body was half burned. It was very close to the fire.

16 Q. Thank you. Could you put a 7 at Dragica Zelenika's house?

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. And was she related to you?

19 A. No, no relation. She did marry a relative of mine, though, but

20 her maiden name had been Kovcalija. We were some sort of relation.

21 Actually, her husband and my father are four or five times removed.

22 Q. And just for the record, Dragica, Luca, Janja, three Zelenika

23 women, you saw bodies; were these people dead or alive?

24 A. All dead.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, where did you go after Dragica's house?

Page 23

1 A. I went to my own house. Pero Zelenika's house was on fire and so

2 was the barn. I reached Josip Zelenika's house. I called out his name,

3 Josip had made it. He was Janja's brother, but I couldn't find him. I

4 passed someone else's house on the way to my house. I reached my house;

5 it was open. I saw my daughter, Jadranka, lying outside on the floor.

6 The door to the living room was open. I could see my father's body lying

7 face down in the room, and my mother's body was on their marital bed and

8 her forehead had been smashed to pieces with bits of brain plastered all

9 over the wall and the ceiling. The top of her head had been blown away,

10 too.

11 Q. Sir, could you put an 8 on the diagram where your parent's house

12 was.

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. Sir, you said when you walked in the house you saw your daughter

15 first. What was her condition when you saw her?

16 A. She was lying on her back gurgling, sort of trying to say

17 something, but she couldn't. She was gasping for air. She was trying to

18 breathe in and out. I was shattered. I had no idea what to do. I kissed

19 her, but I could see that she wouldn't make it. And I took her over to my

20 mother's room and laid her down on the bed. My father was quite heavy; he

21 weighed over 100 kilos, so I left him lying on the floor because I

22 couldn't lift his body.

23 Q. For the record, could you tell us your daughter's name?

24 A. Jadranka Zelenika, born 1981.

25 Q. Your father's name, please?

Page 24

1 A. Ivan Zelenika, born 1930.

2 Q. And your mother's name?

3 A. Ruza Zelenika, maiden name Rajic, born 1931.

4 Q. Did you leave the house sometime after that?

5 A. I had to. I knew that my neighbour, Ruza, was further down the

6 road and her husband Stjepan, they used to play with my children. So

7 something was telling me to go there. I reached their house. Our houses

8 are about 100 metres apart. We didn't find them, though. A hand grenade

9 had been thrown just outside the house and exploded there. We took the

10 road down to the crossroads, and there was a tracksuit lying there that I

11 recognised as belonging to the little Stipe. We found two hand grenades

12 there and then automatic rifle, and we knew that they had been chased down

13 the road to my house.

14 Further down the road, Ruza's body was there next to the road; she

15 had been killed. And the little Stipo that probably tried to run. He was

16 wearing some sort of yellow pullover and shorts. He probably didn't have

17 time to put his tracksuit on. Mara tried to run down the road to Here,

18 and two or three metres before she reached the road, she was shot down

19 dead. She was lying there face down. They were all dead.

20 Q. Sir, can we start off, can you put a 9 on the Zelic house, the one

21 you went to and no one was home?

22 A. Number 9, and they were killed about here.

23 Q. Could you put a 10 in the area where they were killed, you found

24 the three dead bodies.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 25

1 Q. Now, how old was Stjepan approximately, Stjepan Zelic?

2 A. He was one year younger than my daughter Jadranka; he was born in

3 1982. Marija was one year older than my daughter; she was born in 1980.

4 They were a little larger than my daughter. My daughter was a little

5 smaller than they were.

6 Q. And the mother's name was Ruza?

7 A. The mother's name was Ruza Zelic, nee Dzalo. She was from Bobari,

8 and she married a Zelic.

9 Q. Now, do you recall if any of them were wearing shoes when you saw

10 the three dead bodies, Marija, Stjepan, and Ruza?

11 A. No. Little Stipo was only in his underpants. Ruza had put a coat

12 of some kind on. She put quite a few clothes on, but she was barefoot.

13 The other young girl was barefoot. They didn't have time to take any

14 clothes.

15 Q. Where do you go next, sir?

16 A. We then went towards the village of Kriz. That's where we set off

17 to. We went to the village of Budin. Budin is between Zelenika and Kriz;

18 there are four or five houses there. Not a single house had been set on

19 fire or destroyed there. No one lived in it. Most of the people were in

20 Austria. Then from the southern side of Kriz because the fire was opened

21 from the northern side, from Krstic, we then went to Anica Stojanovic's

22 house, also known as Brko.

23 Q. Okay. One second, sir. The diagram A that you've been drawing

24 on, it is 0293-7663.

25 MR. WEINER: May that be offered, Your Honour?

Page 26


2 MR. MORRISSEY: No objection, Your Honour.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P300.

4 JUDGE LIU: What about the original?

5 MR. WEINER: There's both of them, Your Honour, the original and

6 the one that he drew on. Can we offer both.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I believe so.

8 Your microphone, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: And the diagram that was marked with the same ERN

10 will be Prosecution Exhibit P301.


12 Q. Sir, I would like you to look at the next diagram which has the

13 little B circled in the corner, which is 0293-7634 is the ERN number at

14 the top. Could you look at that, please.

15 Could you tell us which hamlet is depicted in that diagram?

16 A. This is the hamlet of Kriz.

17 Q. And who drew this diagram, sir?

18 A. I drew this diagram.

19 Q. And does this depict the route that you took into the village --

20 I'm sorry, into the hamlet of Kriz?

21 A. Yes, it does. We first reached Anto Stojanovic's house and then

22 we continued into the village up to the church.

23 Q. Okay. Just one question. Before you got to Kriz you said you

24 went in the hamlet of Budin and that nothing was damaged or burning. And

25 was anyone living there at the time?

Page 27

1 A. No, nothing was damaged. No one was living there. They probably

2 knew that there was no one there. No houses or stables had been set on

3 fire.

4 Q. Okay. Now, once you entered Kriz where did you go first, which

5 house?

6 A. We came from the southern side because there is a hill there, then

7 we reached Anto Stojanovic's house. He is also known as Brko. He was an

8 elderly retired man. Anto was dead, lying in front of his house, or

9 perhaps 20 metres from his house in the direction of Budin. I don't think

10 he had any footwear on. I think he was wearing thick socks.

11 Q. Now, could you put a 1 over Anto Stojanovic's house or in the

12 house itself?

13 A. He was about here.

14 Q. I see you've put an X where the body was.

15 A. He was 20 or 30 metres from the house. He must have tried to flee

16 in the direction of Budin.

17 Q. And from Anto Stojanovic's house, where did you go next?

18 A. There was some stables behind his house. We set off in the

19 direction of Stojanovic; the lower part of the village is called

20 Stojanovici. That's where we saw Ivka Zelenika, who had survived. She

21 was there in a sort of orchard. She came out. She was crying. She

22 didn't know who we were. She was afraid. She was just crying out, My

23 son, I don't know anything. We then told her, Sit down. Let's see if

24 there is anyone else alive. She said, I don't know anything. She was

25 afraid. She didn't want to remain there. She wanted to go with us. Then

Page 28

1 we reached Anica Stojanovic, who had been killed. When she saw Anica, she

2 was very distressed. We had to pour water over her. Anica had been

3 killed in front of her house.

4 Q. Could you put a 2 in the area where you met Ivka, please.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. And could you put a 3 at Anica Stojanovic's house?

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. And you said that you saw that Anica Stojanovic had been killed.

9 Where was the body?

10 A. It was on the road in front of the house. There's a path leading

11 to the house itself. There's a bit of concrete in front of the house and

12 then a path goes below the house, another above the house. She had been

13 killed on the path. Her legs were to the side. Her head was facing

14 upwards I think.

15 Q. Now, was Anica related to anyone else who had been killed on that

16 day?

17 A. Yes. She was the daughter of Kata Perkovic who had a pair of

18 glasses. Her husband Stipo had survived. She got married in Kriz.

19 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown photograph 0402-0932,

20 ERN number 0402-0932.

21 Q. Sir, could you tell us what that photograph depicts?

22 A. This is the village of Kriz.

23 Q. Do you see Anto Stojanovic's house there?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Could you please circle it and place a 1.

Page 29

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. What about the Anica Stojanovic's home?

3 A. Anica Stojanovic's home.

4 Q. And does that photo depict the Ratkic home?

5 A. Yes. It depicts the new house because the old house burnt down to

6 the ground.

7 Q. Could you place a 3 there. And was the --

8 A. You can see that it was constructed later on. The Dutch

9 government was involved in this project.

10 Q. Okay. And, sir, is that in the same location that the old house

11 was?

12 A. At the same place on the same foundations. They constructed a new

13 house on the old foundations.

14 Q. And finally, can you see the Franjo and Serafina Stojanovic house

15 in that photograph?

16 A. You can't see it very well here because their house is on the

17 other side. There's a hill here and then the road goes around their

18 house, but you can't see it now. All you can see are the stables at the

19 top of Kriz, and this building is down below on the other side.

20 Q. We'll use another photograph then for that.

21 MR. WEINER: Could I offer that photograph, Your Honour, the

22 original and the copy. And the copy with the --

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 Mr. Morrissey?

25 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objections.

Page 30

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the original of the photograph will

2 be Prosecution Exhibit 306, and the one that was marked will be

3 Prosecution Exhibit P307. And also the previous diagram, the second one

4 that was shown with ERN 0293764 will be Prosecution Exhibit P302. And the

5 same diagram that was marked in court will be Prosecution Exhibit P303.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Weiner, I've got a question to ask you, that

7 is: What is the relationship between the two villages, Uzdol and Kriz?

8 Kriz is part of Uzdol or are they separate places?

9 MR. WEINER: I'll have the witness explain.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

12 JUDGE LIU: And after that we might have a break before you come

13 to the next section.

14 MR. WEINER: All right, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.


17 Q. Sir, we've talked about various hamlets. You started off with

18 Zelenika. In what village was -- is Zelenika a hamlet, of what village?

19 A. All these hamlets, Kriz and Zelenika, are in Uzdol and they all

20 come under the name of Uzdol. If a child is born in Kriz or in Zelenika,

21 he's registered as having been born in Kriz. That's the same case for

22 Rajici or Budin. Uzdol has five or six hamlets and, some of the hamlets

23 you have four or five houses and others you have nine or ten houses, et

24 cetera. For example, you have Kranjcici, Gorni Kranjcici, Donji Kranjcici

25 or Ljubunci, Memici, Nedzari [phoen], Glibe, Jurici, a lot of such

Page 31

1 villages.

2 MR. WEINER: All right, Your Honour, if you would like to take the

3 break at this time, that would be fine..

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll take the break and we'll resume at quarter

5 to 11.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Weiner, please continue.


10 Q. Still good morning.

11 Now, when we left off we were in the village of Kriz and you had

12 just left Anica Stojanovic's house. And where did you go next?

13 A. When we reached the house, Martin Ratkic's house, the house was on

14 fire, the roof had fallen in.

15 Q. Sorry, one moment. Let me get the diagram for you to look at.

16 Sorry, sir. Sorry about that.

17 You went to Martin and Kata Ratkic's house.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry to intervene.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up to the house.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: One moment, I'm sorry. My apologies for

21 interrupting like this.

22 I just wanted to check, has this document been tendered or not as

23 an exhibit?

24 JUDGE LIU: Which document?

25 MR. WEINER: I think he's referring to Exhibit B which is

Page 32

1 02937634. I haven't tendered it yet. I haven't offered it.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: That's okay. Because I think the witness has got

3 more markings to make on it, that's all, and if it had been tendered, that

4 was going to create a problem. But if it hasn't been tendered, there's no

5 problem.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P303.

7 MR. WEINER: There will be a few additional markings on it because

8 I haven't officially tendered it yet. I think they did that because we

9 moved ahead with the photograph. It has an MFI number.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, can I just indicate that I'm happy with that

11 and I don't object to that. In fact, it's very desirable that all the

12 markings be on the one sheet and that's really why I jumped up now. If it

13 has been tendered could I just put on record I don't object to the witness

14 further marking that exhibit even though it has been tendered.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

16 MR. WEINER: Thank you, counsel.

17 Q. You indicated you went to Martin and Kata Ratkic's house and that

18 it was burning. Were you able to approach the house?

19 A. The fire was quite intense. We thought that perhaps they had been

20 set on fire, too. His brother's house is further down, the cellar was

21 open, it was below the first floor. Kata and Martin were dead and Martin

22 Ratkic had an ear that had been cut off.

23 Q. Thank you. Lets take it one step at a time. You went to his

24 brother's house, which was further down. Who was his brother's name?

25 A. Blaz, Blasko Ratkic. The houses are next to each other, very

Page 33

1 close to each other.

2 Q. Could you first put a 4 on Martin and Kata Ratkic's house on the

3 diagram?

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. And could you put a box with a 5 where the brother Blaz's house

6 was, Blaz or Blasko?

7 A. That's about here.

8 Q. And you said you went into the basement and you saw -- what did

9 you see when you went into the basement of Blaza's house?

10 A. We saw Martin and Kata. They were holding each other. They had

11 been thrown on to each other and Martin didn't have one ear. Someone had

12 cut his ear off.

13 Q. And were they dead or alive, sir?

14 A. They were dead.

15 Q. Where did you go next?

16 A. We couldn't go to Franjo Stojanovic's, also known as Franc, and

17 his wife's, Serafina, because that was to the north, towards Krisaj

18 [phoen], in the direction of Krstiste and there was an open space meadow,

19 so we couldn't go home before nightfall. So we then returned by the

20 church. There's a path that passes by the church from Anto Stojanovic's

21 house --

22 Q. One second. One second, sir. Before we move on to the next path,

23 why couldn't you go to Franjo and Serafina Stojanovic's house? What

24 prevented you from going there?

25 A. We couldn't go there because they were shooting from the hill

Page 34

1 called Krstiste. They were shooting, there was an open space there, and

2 the houses were facing Krstiste.

3 Q. Now, did you ever see Franjo and Serafina Stojanovic again?

4 A. I saw them when they took them to the school in the night, when

5 they went to go to Prozor. They put them in lorries and drove to Prozor,

6 but I didn't go to see them at night. They took them to the school and

7 then a lorry came and took them to Prozor and to Split.

8 Q. You said they were taken to the school. Were they dead or alive

9 when they were brought to the school in a lorry?

10 A. They were dead. They were all dead. They were driven away in an

11 open lorry, in a TAM vehicle and a lorry called a 110 lorry.

12 Q. Now, could you put a 6 where Martin and -- I'm sorry, Franjo and

13 Serafina Stojanovic's house is on that diagram.

14 A. [Marks].

15 MR. WEINER: And could we offer that diagram in the original at

16 this time.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's admitted into the evidence.

19 THE REGISTRAR: The original of that Prosecution Exhibit P302 and

20 the diagram that's marked and called Prosecution Exhibit P303.

21 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

22 I'd like the witness to please look at a photograph ERN number

23 0149-4700, 0149-4700.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 308.


Page 35

1 Q. Sir, can you tell us what that photograph depicts? Sir, we have

2 it in front of us.

3 A. This is the village of Kriz.

4 Q. Now, is that a fair and accurate representation of the hamlet of

5 Kriz, which is part of Uzdol, as it appeared in September 1993?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, is Franjo and Serafina Stojanovic's house depicted in that

8 photo?

9 A. Yes, it is, it's down here.

10 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Madam Usher. Mr. Registrar, too, thank

11 you.

12 Q. Sir, could you please circle Serafina and Franjo Stojanovic's

13 home.

14 A. And there was a stable which burnt down. You can't see it here.

15 It wasn't rebuilt and that's why you can't see it in the photograph.

16 MR. WEINER: May the record reflect that the house is circled and

17 there is a line indicating where the stable is. Could we offer that,

18 please.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: No objection.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, stable.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's admitted into the evidence, both the

22 original and the marked one.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The original will be Prosecution Exhibit P308 and

24 the one that's marked Prosecution Exhibit P309.


Page 36

1 Q. Now, sir, you were indicating that after you left the Stojanovic

2 home you started heading towards another hamlet.

3 A. We didn't even reach Stojanovic's home on the first day -- I mean

4 in the course of the day. It was only in the evening that Serafina and

5 Franjo were brought there, and we left Martin Ratkic's house in the

6 direction of Rajici, in the direction of the church and the school.

7 Q. Now just one quick matter before we leave. You said Franjo and

8 Serafina were brought there in the evening. Are you talking about their

9 bodies being brought to the school on the evening of September 14th?

10 A. Yes. When it wasn't possible to open fire because there was an

11 open space there and it was difficult to gain access to them.

12 Q. Okay. Now, you said that you went to the village of Rajici next.

13 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown diagram C which has an

14 ERN number of 0293-7635, 0293-7635, with a circled C in the top right-hand

15 corner.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 310.

17 MR. WEINER: And this is the third and last of the diagrams.

18 Q. Now, sir, do you recognise this diagram?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And could you tell the Court what it depicts?

21 A. Here you can see the village of Rajici, the houses, the church,

22 and an area between Kriz and the church.

23 Q. And who drew this diagram, sir?

24 A. I drew this diagram.

25 Q. And does it depict the places that you visited in Rajici on

Page 37

1 September 14th, 1993?

2 A. Yes. Prskalo's house and Mara Rajic and Ivka. There were two

3 other houses. But they were killed in these two houses, only these two

4 houses.

5 Q. All right. Let us start with Rajici. Where did you go first once

6 you went to the hamlet of Rajici?

7 A. When we got there the first house there is Pero Prskalo's house

8 and Jako Rajic's house. Pero's house is above the road. And Jako's house

9 is down below but they are adjacent. Pero's house is a big house. It was

10 on fire. The roof had caved in, the roof, the tiles, the bricks,

11 everything.

12 Next to the house there's a small truck path from the main road

13 that they had built so they could reach their house by car. Their bodies

14 were lying there, Luca Rajic and her husband Stanko, one facing up, the

15 other down. They were each facing in a different direction I think.

16 The old woman Sima Rajic was also there and her daughter Mara

17 Rajic, the daughter of Sima Rajic. Jela Dzalo had died in the house. She

18 was staying with the Prskalos as a refugee. She had three children. Her

19 sister had come over from Austria and had managed to escape as far as the

20 local shop where she was captured by the soldiers. She gave them some

21 money and managed to escape with the children; they are alive and well in

22 Austria now. Her husband Stanko, their son Mijo and her daughter whose

23 name escapes me now -- Brigita. She was born in Austria so they gave her

24 an Austrian name apparently. Brigita. They're staying with their aunt in

25 Austria and with Jela's husband, Stipe.

Page 38

1 Q. All right. Let's take it one step at a time.

2 First could you put a number 1 on this diagram where the Prskalo

3 house is?

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. And could you please show us where you found the dead bodies of

6 Lucija Rajic, Stanko Rajic, and Sima Rajic?

7 A. There's a path here. This is the main road. And there's a path

8 next to the house and they were killed right there halfway down the path,

9 not far from the house. The house had been burnt to the ground but it has

10 been rebuilt. It's a very nice and big house.

11 Q. Could you put a 2 where those three bodies were located?

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. And you indicated that Sima's daughter Mara Rajic was also lying

14 dead. Could you put a 3 where that body was?

15 A. It was nearby.

16 Q. You put a number 4. Could you change that to a number 3, please.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Thank you. Now, you learned that Jela Dzalo died inside the

19 house. Were any of her remains ever found?

20 A. No, never. It was a big house; it was a big fire. Her sister

21 says that she returned to the house because she had left something behind

22 and she had come back to get it and she was killed. She never showed up

23 again. They celebrated mass for her, as for everyone else who had been

24 killed. Her children are still alive in Austria as well as her husband.

25 He used to work in Austria before the war. He would sometimes come over.

Page 39

1 Her husband's name is Stipo.

2 Q. Is there a memorial for her?

3 A. There is at Uzdol for her and for the Grubesas woman. It's the

4 same memorial as for all the other victims. It's a small memorial centre

5 and it's the same memorial for everyone with their names stated, year of

6 birth, and year of death.

7 Q. Now, after you went to the Prskalo house, where did you go?

8 A. We went to the church. Jako Rajic's house was next to the road;

9 it hadn't been set on fire. Sima and Mara Rajic's house, they must have

10 run over to Jela's house, and they were found there, their bodies. But

11 Jako's house had not burned down, it's just next to the road.

12 Further down the road is Ivan Rajic's house and behind his house

13 is Mijo Rajic's house. Mijo was outside the house killed at his own

14 door-step here the road. His wife Ivka was inside. She was an ill woman.

15 She had suffered a stroke and she was killed inside the house, whereas

16 Mijo was killed outside the house.

17 Q. All right. Let's do this first. Could you mark a number 4 on the

18 diagram of Mijo and Ivka Rajic's house?

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Now, you indicated that Mijo was just outside the house, Mijo was

21 found dead just outside the house?

22 A. Outside the house at his door-step, just outside the door on the

23 ground.

24 Q. You said Ivka had had a stroke. Was Ivka able to walk in

25 September of 1993?

Page 40

1 A. No, no she wasn't. She hadn't been able to walk for about ten

2 years at least. She was bedridden. She hadn't walked for a great number

3 of years.

4 Q. And about how old was she?

5 A. I think she was born in 1921. Mijo must be a year or two younger.

6 She was born nearby. Her maiden name was Mendes.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. WEINER: Now, could that diagram be offered, the original and

9 the marked diagram, please?

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 It's admitted into the evidence.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The diagram of ERN 02937635, the original, will be

15 Prosecution Exhibit P304. And the same diagram which is marked in court

16 by the witness will be Prosecution Exhibit P305.

17 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

18 May the witness now be shown a photograph having an ERN of

19 0402-0929, 0402-0929.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 310.

21 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

22 Q. Sir, can you tell us what that photograph depicts?

23 A. You can see the village of Uzdol, Donji Rajici, you can see as far

24 as Zelenike over there, my house, the garden. The Zelic's house. Right

25 here you can see Rajici with the church, the school -- the two churches,

Page 41

1 the school.

2 Q. Now, is the hamlet of Rajici a part of Uzdol?

3 A. Yes. The whole thing is Uzdol: Zelenike, Rajici, Kriz, Bobari,

4 Pale. And down in the field there are houses, Gojko Maric's house,

5 Stojanovic's house, more houses over there that you can't see in the

6 photograph. It's all part of Uzdol.

7 Q. Now, is that photograph a fair and accurate representation of the

8 hamlet of Rajici as it appeared and also parts of Uzdol as it appeared in

9 September 1993?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, is the Prskalo house depicted in that photograph?

12 A. Yes. It's been rebuilt.

13 Q. And was it rebuilt on the same location where the original house

14 had been?

15 A. Yes. The same spot.

16 Q. And could you put a 1 over that house, please.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. And is the home of Mijo and Ivka Rajic also depicted?

19 A. Yes. This one over here. This is Jako's house and this is Ivan

20 and Mijo's is the third one in the middle. The third one, they're all

21 below the road. Prskalo's is the only one that is above the road.

22 Q. And could you put a 2 over the Rajic house?

23 A. This last one was Stanko and Lucija Rajic's house but they were

24 killed right here, near this house. This is Stanko's house, Stanko and

25 Lucija's Rajic. And it wasn't burned.

Page 42

1 MR. WEINER: Let the record reflect that there is a line or slash

2 mark near Stanko and Luca Rajic's house. Thank you.

3 I'd like to offer that, Your Honour.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: No objection.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's admitted into evidence.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This house over here, this first

7 house is Sima and Mara Rajic's house, the one next to Prskalo's house,

8 Jako's house. Jako had died. Sima's husband and Mara's father.


10 Q. Thank you, sir.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The original of that photograph is Prosecution

12 Exhibit P310 and the one that is marked now is Prosecution Exhibit P311.

13 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

14 Your Honour, may the record reflect there's a little U-shaped line

15 to the right of circle number 1 which he indicated was Sima Rajic's house.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sima and Mara's house.

17 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

18 Q. Now, after you saw -- you left Mijo and Ivka Rajic's house, where

19 did you go?

20 A. We went down the road to the church. There is an open space here.

21 We were fired at from the hilltop. They fired at us. We ran to the woods

22 right here and we reached the area north of the school.

23 Q. Now, I want to ask you a few questions about some of the people

24 you had seen killed. Other than Ivo Rajic at the first house you visited

25 who was the young soldier that was lying dead, any of these other people

Page 43

1 that you saw killed, were any of them wearing uniforms?

2 A. No, none. All civilian.

3 Q. Of those people you had seen killed, had you ever seen in, let's

4 say, August or September, had you ever seen any of these people dressed in

5 a military uniform?

6 A. No.

7 Q. In August or September of 1993, had you ever seen any of those

8 people who were killed carrying a weapon?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Near any of these people who were killed did you see any weapons?

11 A. I don't know. At that moment all I saw were dead bodies. I can't

12 remember if there was anything else lying around. There was soldiers in

13 the area, so some of them may have left their weapons behind. This is not

14 something that I can say.

15 Q. Were any of these people to your knowledge, any of these people

16 who were killed, members of the HVO or any other military organisation?

17 A. I don't think so. They were all elderly people except Domin's son

18 and Slavko, the ambulance driver. All of them were elderly persons, some

19 retired, some plain old, women, grannies, children.

20 Q. Now, you mentioned Kata Ljubic. How long had you known Kata

21 Ljubic?

22 A. I'd known her for a very long time. She was originally from Kriz

23 but she married a man from Uzdol from Zelenike. It was up in the hill

24 above Zelici, and they built a new house between the church and the

25 school, and that's where they were killed, outside that house. Previously

Page 44

1 they had lived for about ten years near Glisina Brdo [phoen]. There was

2 no road, so they built a small road leading to the place from the church

3 to the school.

4 Q. Now, do you know whether Kata was mobilised by the HVO?

5 A. I know that at the beginning of the war she made bread using

6 flour. We didn't have -- there was no food to buy and those women who

7 were younger were not able to make bread. But this didn't go on for a

8 very long time. After a while we stopped making our own bread and we were

9 again supplied with bread.

10 Q. Now, when you said she made bread, whom did she make bread for?

11 A. She made bread for HVO soldiers.

12 Q. And how long --

13 A. Some other ladies were involved in that, too, but I'm not sure.

14 They would do this in their own homes, not in the schools where the

15 soldiers were billeted. But each woman had an assignment. One had to

16 make two breads per day, and another two or three loaves. They would work

17 in the kitchen and they would take shifts, first shift, second shift,

18 third shift, those who had been mobilised, rather young ladies, but I know

19 nothing else about that.

20 Q. How long did she make bread, if you know?

21 A. I don't know. It could have been two or three days; it could have

22 been as long as a month. We made bread ourselves until we got fresh

23 supplies of bread.

24 Q. Do you know if she was making bread for the HVO in 1993?

25 A. I don't know. I don't think so, but by then we started receiving

Page 45

1 new supplies.

2 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Domin Rajic who you saw killed on

3 that date?

4 A. Yes, I know Domin. He had worked in Split, and once he had

5 retired he returned in 1993 or possibly 1992. He hadn't been around for

6 long, but he used to work in Split as a janitor with a company.

7 Q. Do you know if he was mobilised, sir, in 1993?

8 A. No, no. Domin wasn't, not that I know.

9 Q. Are you familiar with a group called the home guard?

10 A. The home guard, that was later. They wanted some of the elderly

11 people to make rounds of the village in the evening to see what was going

12 on. I'm not sure if they stood guard in the proper sense of the word. We

13 didn't have that sort of thing in Zelenike or in Kriz. There was no

14 electricity, no public lighting. It wasn't safe to walk around the

15 village at night. There was a risk of being killed.

16 Q. Did people in the home guard wear uniforms, these elderly people?

17 A. No, not those that guarded the village. There was a unit guarding

18 Kracko Polje. They were wearing uniforms, but those were younger people

19 aged between 40 and 50. Those who had not been sent to the front lines,

20 were either sick or they were -- they weren't fit to carry firearms or

21 maybe for some other reason they weren't allowed to go to the front line.

22 Q. And did the people in the home guard carry weapons or partake and

23 any military exercises?

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, perhaps I could just ask if those

25 questions be divided.

Page 46

1 MR. WEINER: That's fine. That's fine.

2 Q. First, did the members of the home guard, these elderly people,

3 did they carry any weapons?

4 A. Those who were at Kracko Polje, this was not the front line, they

5 were at the rear guarding the roads and the junction. They were carrying

6 firearms, Marko Rajic, Glibo, Pavo Grubesas. Those elderly people, Ivan

7 Ljubic, Kata's husband, they had rifles and uniforms, but I don't think

8 Domin did and those other people over there who were killed. Domin's

9 brother, Franjo, he had a uniform and a rifle, he was born in 1939 or

10 possibly 1940. He was a member of the home guard. Ivan, Pavo, they stood

11 guard in Kracko Polje, but they didn't go to Komin or to the front lines.

12 Q. Was Domin ever sent to Kracko Polje?

13 A. No, no. He wasn't fit for anything like that. He would get drunk

14 on brandy and he would usually take a while to sober up.

15 Q. Okay. Finally, did the elderly people in the home guard partake

16 in any military exercises?

17 A. No, no exercises. They were mostly peopled aged around 50 or 55,

18 people who had previously worked in Croatia or in Split or in Sarajevo,

19 and once the war began they were out of work. So they returned home. The

20 command decided not to send these people to the front lines, so they said

21 they could guard their own villages to see to it that no mines were laid

22 along any of the roads; so that's what they ended up doing. There was a

23 platoon of them, or a squad possibly. I'm not sure what it was

24 called.

25 MR. WEINER: Now, Your Honour, may the witness be shown a video,

Page 47

1 V000-2719, which is 65 ter number 174? Since the E-court system doesn't

2 show videos, we're going to show small clips. It's a two-hour-plus

3 video -- no, no, we're not going to show two hours, Your Honour. I see

4 that frown. It's a two-hour video. Only approximately 35 minutes, maybe

5 36 or 37, concern the killings in Uzdol. Of that we have about ten

6 minutes in a group of small clips that we want to show the witness for

7 identification of the bodies. And no interpretation, although there is a

8 transcript which goes with it, no interpretation is necessary because

9 we're only going to be identifying the bodies.

10 In addition, for the Court's notice, I've told the witness we were

11 not going to show the situation in his own home of his parents and his

12 daughter. We are going to skip over that, and I've notified the Defence

13 of that, too.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 312.


16 Q. We're going to start off at 17 minutes and 25 seconds to 18

17 minutes and 10 seconds.

18 [Videotape played]


20 Q. Could you tell us who that is?

21 A. This is Domin Rajic. You can see for yourselves he was a

22 civilian.

23 Q. And the two people that were shown just before him, who were they,

24 sir?

25 A. That was Domin's son, Ivo, and his wife Ivka. Four or five metres

Page 48

1 from them there was Zora Zelko's [phoen] body. It was all around Domin's

2 house.

3 Q. Let's continue and see who you recognise, 18.17 to 18.41.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Domin Rajic, Zorka Glibo. Zorka.


7 Q. Thank you. We'll next go to a clip or a segment, 20 minutes and

8 35 seconds to 21 minutes and 30 seconds.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mato Ljubic.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mato Ljubic.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. WEINER: Thank you. The next segment is 21 minutes and 58

15 seconds to 22 minutes and 15 seconds.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kata Ljubic.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

20 The next segment is 22 minutes and 55 seconds to 23 minutes and 21

21 seconds.

22 [Videotape played]

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kata Perkovic.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kata Perkovic; she wore glasses.

Page 49

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. WEINER: The next segment is 23 minutes and 30 seconds to 23

3 minutes and 46 seconds.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Tvrtko and Slavka

6 Kovcalija's house.

7 [Videotape played]


9 Q. And what is that?

10 A. Mara Grubesas was burnt in this stable. A monument has been

11 erected to her, a small monument has been erected to her here.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. WEINER: Let's move to 25 minutes to 26 minutes and 9 seconds.

14 [Videotape played]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Luca Zelenika's house.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Luca Zelenika.

18 [Videotape played].

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Janja Zelenika.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They're taking the flies off her

22 face.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. WEINER: The next clip is 28 minutes and 28 seconds to 29

25 minutes and 10 seconds.

Page 50

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Dragica's stable, Dragica

3 Zelenika, who was set on fire by the house.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'm not going through the next segment

6 in case the Court or counsel wants to examine them, that's 35 minutes and

7 two seconds to 35 minutes and 40 seconds, and then related to that is also

8 36 minutes to 36 minutes and 40 seconds, and that concerns the deaths of

9 Ivan and Ruza Zelenika and Jadranka Zelenika.

10 Let us move to 37 minutes and 40 seconds to 38 minutes and 16

11 seconds.

12 [Videotape played]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ruza Zelic, little Stipo.

14 [Videotape played]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Marija is down there.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Marija Zelic, Stipo Zelic.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MR. WEINER: And related to this segment is 39 minutes and 12

20 seconds to 40 minutes and 38 seconds.

21 Just a moment, please, Your Honour.

22 Q. Would you like to take a break, Mr. Zelenika?

23 A. It's not necessary. It's difficult for me. Little Stipo played

24 with my children.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 51

1 MR. WEINER: Why don't we skip that one.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Marija.

4 [Videotape played]


6 Q. Who is the older woman depicted in that?

7 A. Ruza Zelic, Stipo's and Marija's mother, a neighbor of mine.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. WEINER: Could we go to 41 minutes and 37 seconds to 41

10 minutes and 47 seconds.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Anto Stojanovic, also known as Brko,

13 Kriz.

14 MR. WEINER: And then 42 minutes and 12 seconds to 42 minutes and

15 33 seconds, please.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ante Stojanovic.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MR. WEINER: 46 minutes and 25 seconds to 46 minutes and 45

20 seconds, please.

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Anica Stojanovic.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. WEINER: The next two clips concern one incident. 48 minutes

25 and 10 seconds to 48 minutes and 42 seconds.

Page 52

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Rajic, Luca Rajic, and then

3 Stanko, her husband, is behind her, and Sima Rajic is the third body;

4 Mijo, the fourth body is somewhere nearby. Sima is in red, is wearing

5 red.

6 MR. WEINER: 49 seconds -- I'm sorry, 49 minutes and 15 seconds to

7 50 minutes and 3 seconds.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Luca Rajic. This is Stanko

10 Rajic.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sima Rajic.

13 [Videotape played].

14 MR. WEINER: 50 minutes and 20 seconds to 50 minutes and 40

15 seconds.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mara Rajic, Sima's daughter.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mara.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. WEINER: And the final segment, 51 minutes to 51 minutes and

22 47 seconds.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Mijo Rajic's house.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 53


2 Q. Do you know who that man is? Do you know who that man is?

3 A. Mijo Rajic, in front of his house.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is his wife, Ivka.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

9 Q. Sir, do these segments of the video accurately portray what you

10 observed on September 14th, 1993?

11 A. Yes, they do.

12 Q. And do these segments accurately reflect the condition of the

13 victims that you had observed?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. WEINER: I'd like to offer that tape, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, there's no objection to it. I

18 understand the whole tape is being offered for tender here, and I'm not

19 going to cross-examine this particular witness about that tape at all

20 frankly, but there may be other witnesses that I ask about other parts of

21 it than what has been shown to him. I just make it clear that the whole

22 tape is tendered; I don't object to that.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's admitted into the evidence.

24 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P312.

Page 54


2 Q. Now, sir, you testified earlier that you were the registrar of the

3 village of Uzdol. What does the registrar do?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What do you do as registrar?

6 A. Well, you register the births of children, children who are born

7 in my territory, my local commune, and the local commune of commune [as

8 interpreted]. The local commune of Scipe also has a register so that we

9 complemented each other. He would marry couples up there, and I would

10 marry couples in Uzdol. He would register newly born children up there,

11 but the old books up until the war were in Uzdol. If necessary, he would

12 contact me if it was necessary to issue something or he would come to see

13 me to obtain the relevant number.

14 We would register children born, marriages, people who had died.

15 We would issue death certificates in order to solve property issues,

16 et cetera. There were lists of recruits of individuals who had to be

17 vaccinated, lists of children who had to enroll in the first class in

18 school, et cetera. Those are the sorts of duties that a registrar is

19 involved in.

20 For people in Austria, Germany, and Switzerland, we issue

21 international certificates in 12 or 13 languages, and there are lists on

22 family situation for people who are living abroad, et cetera. And there

23 are similar international certificates of foreign countries.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, do you maintain a book of the deaths that

25 occurred or just deaths in general that have occurred in the village of

Page 55

1 Uzdol?

2 A. Yes, we have original books. Each village has a new book now. We

3 have eight books, eight original books. One is kept for Uzdol; there's

4 another for Donja Vas; the third one is for Kranjcici; the fourth one is

5 for Ljubunci; the fifth one is for Here, the sixth one is for Kute; the

6 seventh one is for Scipe; and the eighth one is for Ivanci and Pajici.

7 These are two villages, but they were small villages so there was just one

8 book for these two villages. And there's a Donji and Gornji Kranjcici,

9 but there was one book for Donji and Gornji Kranjcici.

10 There were eight books, eight for births, eight for deaths, and

11 one for marriages. When you use up one book, a new one is used. And the

12 municipality certifies these books. These are original books. They are

13 thick books, and the old ones are preserved.

14 Our office has been in existence since 1956. We have some very

15 old books, but new books have been introduced. But up until 1957 there

16 was one book. After 1957, the villages -- there were books for eight

17 various areas.

18 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, the persons who were killed on

19 September 14th, were their names placed in any of these eight books?

20 A. They were all born there. Serafina Stojanovic was born in

21 Konjica, but she got married in Uzdol. She was married in Uzdol and she's

22 registered in the book in Uzdol. But most of the others were -- all of

23 them were born in Uzdol. My mother was born in Kranjcici, but she got

24 married in Uzdol. That's where they were married. And my mother and the

25 daughter were all registered there in Uzdol.

Page 56

1 Q. But were their deaths listed in the book of deaths in -- at the

2 Uzdol registry?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And --

5 A. Everyone from Uzdol lived in the territory of Uzdol, and they were

6 all listed in the book of deaths for Uzdol.

7 Q. Were death certificates ever issued for any of the individuals,

8 any of these persons that were killed on --

9 A. Yes. When they went to Split they wanted to know the exact

10 information. They wanted to know when they were born. Then I didn't look

11 into this. Then they were buried in the cemetery in Prozor. They

12 remained there for eight or nine years, I suppose. There is a law

13 according to which a body has to remain buried for a certain period of

14 time. All the bodies were then put in Uzdol. Now there is an old

15 cemetery from the old church in Uzdol and they were all buried there.

16 They were all buried there two or three years ago.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, has anyone ever requested death certificates for

18 the 29 victims in Uzdol?

19 A. They requested them when we entered a phone line. First they said

20 that if there was civilian victims, we wouldn't have to pay for the

21 telephone line, but we had to pay. But they said that it would be free.

22 However, when it was introduced, everyone had to pay. Only the soldiers

23 didn't have to pay that duty, as they called it.

24 Q. Who requested the death certificates?

25 A. Well, the telephone exchange in Mostar requested them and then the

Page 57

1 municipality in Split requested it. An office also requested it. Certain

2 civilian victims of the war were supposed to receive compensation, but

3 this was delayed. Some civilian victims in Croatia retained some

4 compensation, but in Bosnia only soldiers received such compensation.

5 According to what I have heard via the Sarajevo news, it will only be next

6 year that such compensation will be provided. And it will be necessary to

7 provide a death certificate if request is being made for such compensation

8 again.

9 Q. Now, who in your village or who at your registry signs the death

10 certificates?

11 A. The death certificates -- I sign the death certificates. When

12 someone dies, I have to register this. Someone comes to inform me of the

13 fact - his brother or father - and I issue the certificates and sign them

14 because I'm the registrar.

15 Q. Now, I'd like you to look at some death certificates. P -- it's a

16 65 ter number, 180. 0219-5695 to 0 --

17 A. Yes, you have the number. Born on the 25th of May the 158, that's

18 the municipality of Prozor; 553, that's the number that is issued by MUP,

19 they issue that number. We then enter this into the book of marriages,

20 births, and deaths. The registry number was only issued in the 1980s.

21 Before, we didn't have these identification numbers. First you have the

22 year, the month, and then the municipality, and then you have the MUP

23 number below. You have the place of birth, place of death is Uzdol. Born

24 in Kranjcici but married in Uzdol. Her father was Ljubic Toma [phoen];

25 mother Mazul Luca. Zelenika Jozo was the husband. He died before the

Page 58

1 war. She was buried at the time in Prozor. Now, if I was to issue a new

2 death certificate, now they've been buried in Uzdol. Their bodies were

3 transferred there after nine years. Now, Prozor would no longer be place

4 of burial; it would be Uzdol.

5 Q. And is that your name and signature on the bottom right?

6 A. Yes, this is the registrar's signature. Then you have the number,

7 Uzdol, and the date when it was issued. And you have the municipality's

8 stamp. We don't have our stamp now, but up until the war we did. But

9 Konjic, Prozor, Jablanica, they don't have these stamps anymore; I don't

10 know why. They -- these certificates are certified elsewhere.

11 Q. All right.

12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, would you like me to read off the 29 of

13 them? There's a group of 41 here; we're just going to use the 29 that are

14 listed in the indictment.

15 JUDGE LIU: If you like and if there's no objections from the

16 Defence.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry. I'm just not sure about the 41, Your

18 Honour.

19 MR. WEINER: What they did was they had 29 civilians and there

20 were 12 HVO soldiers that were killed on that day in Uzdol. So they've

21 listed all 41 -- they've included in that exhibit all 41 persons that been

22 killed.

23 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, in my submission it would be

24 appropriate to put in all the 41.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

Page 59

1 MR. WEINER: That's fine, Your Honour. I would like to offer that

2 at this time.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: That's fine.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Prosecution Exhibit P313.

5 MR. WEINER: No further questions at this time, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe it's be a good time for us to take a

7 break. We'll have a 30-minute break and we'll resume at 25 minutes past

8 12.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey. Mr. Morrissey, your

12 cross-examination, please.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Thanks, Your Honour. Could I just indicate to the

14 Court that having considered the matter since the break, I indicate that

15 we will not be in a position to finish the cross-examination today. I

16 suspect we will probably go -- we won't take up all of tomorrow by any

17 means, but we will go into tomorrow.

18 Yes, very well.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zelenika. Mr. Zelenika, at the time of these

21 incidents, by which I mean in early of September of 1993, the village of

22 Uzdol was effectively on the front line of combat operations between the

23 HVO and the Bosnian army. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what's the particular name of the part of Uzdol where the

Page 60

1 school is based?

2 A. Cer.

3 Q. I understand that Uzdol is the general name for that area. Is

4 there a particular part of that area which is also called Uzdol or is

5 Uzdol just simply a general name?

6 A. There are several hamlets, Rajici, Medesi [phoen], Bobari, Pale,

7 Kriz, Zelenike, Zelici, that's about it. There are two or three houses

8 further down, the Maric's house, the Stojanovic's house, Budim, but it's

9 all part of Uzdol, four or five hamlets.

10 Q. Very well. So when referring to the area where the school is

11 based, we should refer to that -- I should refer to that as Cer. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. Cer. Cer, yes.

14 Q. Very well. There was a battalion headquarters of the HVO based at

15 Cer. Is that correct?

16 A. In the school building.

17 Q. Yes. And there in the school building was a communications

18 centre. Is that correct?

19 A. Communications centre, yes.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. And the kitchen, too.

22 Q. Yes. Was the battalion command based there?

23 A. Everything was there. It's a huge building built back in the

24 former Yugoslavia. A huge building.

25 Q. Yes. And at that time, and I mean in early September of 1993,

Page 61

1 there were between 100 and 150 HVO soldiers in Uzdol. Is that correct?

2 A. I don't know exactly how many, 150 perhaps, up to 200.

3 Q. Very well. All right. Now, I understand you don't have an exact

4 figure, but is your evidence here that the range of -- that the range that

5 you think of soldiers that were present there was between 150 and 200?

6 A. Sometimes 100, sometimes 150, depending.

7 Q. Very well. Now, at that time, was there a tank based in -- an HVO

8 owned and operated tank based in Uzdol?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When not actively firing at things, was that tank normally placed

11 near to Cer and the school?

12 A. Yes, outside the school.

13 Q. Yes. In addition to the battalion headquarters in the school at

14 Cer, were there also various artillery positions on the hills around

15 about, including anti-aircraft guns, Howitzers, mortars, and other

16 equipment?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Very well.

19 A. Around the hills.

20 Q. Yes, I understand. Now, in those days there were many soldiers in

21 that battalion who were local people from the hamlets of Uzdol. Is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes, but they weren't at the front line every day. They would

24 have leave every two or three days before they went back to the line.

25 Q. I understand that. Very well. And at that time was the

Page 62

1 leadership of the battalion -- who was the commander of the battalion?

2 A. I don't know. People said it was a man named Buza. I'm not sure

3 what his name was.

4 Q. You misunderstood my question, and I apologise. I'll stop there.

5 I should have made my question clearer. I meant the commander of your

6 battalion, a battalion of HVO based in Uzdol?

7 A. The commander was Prskalo, Josip Prskalo.

8 Q. He was the owner of a house that was burnt down. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes. That was his father's house actually.

10 Q. All right. Now, there were -- at the school you've indicated that

11 there was a kitchen and a communications centre as well as the command

12 post. Is it the case that approximately ten soldiers were also billeted

13 at that school?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Were they local soldiers or were they soldiers who were the

16 crew of the tank who would come from other places?

17 A. Some were the crew of the tank and some were from Rama, from

18 Prozor. It was too far for them to go back home to spend the night, so

19 they would sleep there in the school building.

20 Q. Yes, I understand. Very well. So the position was this: The

21 local soldiers would go home to their own homes to sleep, but the soldiers

22 from Prozor or other parts --

23 A. Yes. Scete and Rama, people from those places would usually sleep

24 at the school building.

25 Q. Yes, thank you for that. I have to ask you -- I have to go

Page 63

1 through a list of names here of various people, and I just want to ask you

2 where you think they were accommodated, doing the best you can, I

3 understand it's ten years ago or more, but I'd just ask you to exercise

4 your memory as best you can.

5 Do you recall an HVO soldier named Drago Barisic who was later

6 killed in an action at Here?

7 A. He was in Ljubunci. They were at the front line between Glibe and

8 Jurici. He didn't come to Uzdol; it was too far for them to go. They

9 were further down in a different area.

10 Q. Very well. Zelika Briza.

11 A. Zeljko Brizar. Brizar probably.

12 Q. You'll have to --

13 A. Brizar.

14 Q. Mr. Zelenika, you'll have to forgive some Australian bad

15 pronunciation. I will promise to do my best however. But Mr. Brizar --

16 A. No problem.

17 Q. Where was he on the night of the 13th of September, to the best of

18 your recollection?

19 A. I have no idea. I think probably at Prozor or thereabouts, but I

20 can't say where he was deployed along that line.

21 Q. Now, Ilija Cvitanovic; do you recall him?

22 A. Ilija from Rumboci, yes. He was in the school building at Uzdol.

23 Q. And did he -- was he killed during the fighting on that occasion?

24 A. There was a man named Cvitanovic. I'm not sure if he was him or

25 not but it's possible. There was one man called Zelic and another called

Page 64

1 Cvitanovic.

2 Q. Yes. Those two were friends, weren't they?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Now pressing on and I'm taking you through -- it's a number

5 of individuals, Fabjan Grabovac?

6 A. Fabjan Grabovac, no.

7 Q. When you say "no," is that somebody you don't recall now?

8 A. We didn't have anyone named Grabovac. It may have one of the crew

9 operating the tank. We don't have that kind of surname in our village.

10 He may be part of the crew.

11 Q. I believe he was, and I'll come back to him later on.

12 A. I don't know all the people who were there. Sometimes new people

13 would come in. I didn't know all of them.

14 Q. Yes, I understand that, but I have to put these names to you. If

15 you don't recall them being there, you say so that's fine.

16 Damir Haluzan?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where was he that night?

19 A. No, I'm not familiar with him.

20 Q. Ivan Kolakusic?

21 A. Ivan Kolakusic is from Ljubunci. I'm not sure where he was that

22 night.

23 Q. Okay. Now, Ivan Kovcalija and Marinko Kovcalija and Pero

24 Kovcalija were all local people, weren't they?

25 A. From Uzdol, yes.

Page 65

1 Q. Was one of those persons killed on the 14th, on the morning of the

2 14th of September?

3 A. Pero, he was.

4 Q. Pero Kovcalija was killed. He was an active HVO soldier. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Where was he killed?

8 A. He was killed outside Ante Zelic's house.

9 Q. Very well.

10 A. The house has no roof.

11 Q. I understand that. I just have some questions about him now. He

12 was an HVO soldier. Did you see his body yourself?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Was he in uniform on that occasion?

15 A. He was the first one I saw after I left Mijo Maric's house, yes.

16 Q. Sorry, pardon me, I cut across you there.

17 Was he in uniform when you saw him?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was he armed when you saw him?

20 A. No. He had left the school building to check something out and he

21 was killed right there. He was not carrying a rifle. Not far from him

22 there was another body, a BH army soldier. I didn't know his name.

23 Q. Did the BH army soldier have a weapon with him when you saw him?

24 A. I can't remember whether he had a weapon or not. Maybe one of the

25 soldiers who had withdrawn prior to that had taken his weapon. I don't

Page 66

1 know.

2 Q. Okay. And can you tell me, did all three Kovcalijas sleep in the

3 same premises on that night, the 13th of September, or not?

4 A. No. Pero was in the school building; he must have been on duty.

5 And Ivan Kovcalija was sleeping in his house which burned down. This

6 house belonged to the two brothers. Ivan managed to escape.

7 Q. What about the Marinko?

8 A. I think Marinko was at the front line near Komin.

9 Q. Yes. Could you just explain whether that part of the front line

10 is at Uzdol or is it further away?

11 A. That is a hill above Uzdol between Lisina and Konjsko, a hill

12 called Komin.

13 Q. Thank you. Very well. I want to turn to another person now,

14 Franjo Krizanac.

15 A. Franjo Krizanac was not at Uzdol. Franjo ... He was elsewhere

16 with the army. He did something elsewhere.

17 Q. All right. Ivan Ljubic?

18 A. Ivan Ljubic lived in Uzdol. His father, Mato, had been killed as

19 well as his wife, Kata. That morning he was at Kransko Polje as a member

20 of the home guard.

21 Q. As a member of the armed guard and as a local farmer, did he own a

22 weapon?

23 A. He had some sort of rifle over at Kracko Polje. And he came with

24 us, or rather he followed us after his wife had been killed and his house

25 and barn had been burned down. Most of them have M-48 rifles, the old

Page 67

1 type, one each usually.

2 Q. When you say "most of them," who do you mean by most of them? Do

3 you mean most of the older people?

4 A. Yes, those older people. There weren't many of them. They stood

5 guard along the road to see that no one laid any mines for cars or

6 vehicles using the road.

7 Q. All right. Now, pressing on with other people. Pero Lucic?

8 A. Sorry.

9 Q. Sorry, it will probably be a type writing error.

10 A. Lucic. Lucic.

11 Q. Yes, pardon me.

12 A. I'm not sure. I think he was part of the tank crew. He must have

13 been from Bugojno. He was killed, too.

14 Q. Very well. And did you know an Ivica Maric?

15 A. Maric, there were a lot of people called Maric. There was one who

16 was chief of police. There was another man, a rather young man called

17 Maric. There was several people called Ivica Maric depending on the age.

18 I'm not sure which one you mean.

19 Q. Were there any Ivica Marics who were living in Uzdol -- and the

20 one I'm thinking of here is a person who was killed a couple months later

21 early in 1994 in battle.

22 A. Josip Maric was the only Maric who was actually killed. Josip

23 Maric, not Ivica.

24 Q. Okay. Josip Maric was a soldier. Is that correct?

25 A. On the 14th, yes, yes. He was killed on the 14th of September at

Page 68

1 the school, the steps outside the school.

2 Q. I understand.

3 A. But I don't know anyone called Ivica Maric. It certainly -- not

4 any of the people who were killed at Uzdol.

5 Q. Okay. Now, I just have a quick question about Slavko Mendes. How

6 far from the school was the body of Slavko Mendes?

7 A. Mendes.

8 Q. Yes. How was from the school was the body of Slavko Mendes?

9 A. Slavko was stationed in front of the school. The medical station,

10 the post office, and the registrar's office further down from the school

11 building, that's where they were. There's a pharmacy selling farming

12 products nearby. The distance is perhaps 80 to 100 metres. They took him

13 there. His hands were tied behind his back by a length of rope. He was

14 tied up.

15 Q. Yes. You did you know Vlado Mijatovic?

16 A. Vlado Mijatovic, not from our village. Only he was one of the

17 crew, but we don't have that last name in our village.

18 Q. Very well. Now, I just want to pause there. I'll return to this

19 list of names in a minute.

20 I want to ask you some questions about the organisation of the

21 defence of Uzdol by the HVO. You've indicated that there was a battalion

22 command at the school and that battalion was the 3rd Battalion of an -- of

23 which brigade?

24 A. The Rama Brigade. I think that's what it was called. Uzdol.

25 Q. Very well. An active front line --

Page 69

1 A. But we belonged to Prozor, to Rama.

2 Q. Yes. Now, active front line combat activities were normally

3 carried out by regular HVO soldiers of normal fighting age. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, you referred to an institution called the home guard a little

7 earlier. Who was it who issued orders and instructions to the home guard?

8 A. I don't know that. They had someone who was in charge. There

9 would be two or three people standing guard at Kracko Polje at night.

10 Every three or four days some of them would come over. And the man in

11 charge probably reported to Prskalo, the commander. But I really can't

12 say with any degree of certainty. I was not one of the command.

13 Q. I understand that, but I'm -- because you were there, we have to

14 ask you these questions. At all events, although you don't know the name

15 of the person -- you don't know the name of the -- well, I should ask you

16 this: Do you know the name of the person who was in charge of the home

17 guard in your area?

18 A. Our area, I think his name was Kazo Milicevic from Kranjcici. He

19 was born in 1958. He was killed -- or rather, he had been injured

20 seriously at a company over in Salakovac and he was handicapped, disabled.

21 Q. I understand. And so far as you understood the line of reporting

22 and responsibility, the home guard answered to Mr. Prskalo, who was the

23 battalion commander in Uzdol. Is that your understanding?

24 A. He was the number one man. The others were probably afraid of him

25 whenever he went to Prozor.

Page 70

1 Q. Who are you talking about there? Mr. Prskalo?

2 A. Yes. He was the commander of that battalion and all the home

3 guards had to obey him. He would give orders. Sometimes he would tour

4 the units. Those were no real soldiers, you know, like the ones along the

5 front line. Those were elderly people. Sometimes they would just doze

6 off.

7 Q. Yes. Now I understand that. You indicated -- you gave some

8 answers concerning weapons and those elderly people. Could I ask you

9 this: Did the HVO army issue them with weapons or did they just use

10 weapons that they had at the farm?

11 A. At the beginning they used hunting rifles and then they were

12 supplied with proper rifles. They usually had old rifles, M-48.

13 Q. Okay, I understand that. And just to clarify that a little bit

14 further, in peacetime Uzdol was effectively a farming area. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Well, it was a farming area. The road is barred. It was a

17 backward area, the middle of nowhere, like the other villages that I told

18 you about, those local communes, Scipe and Uzdol.

19 Q. Yes, I understand. And it was the normal practice for local

20 farmers to have hunting rifles simply for the purposes of protecting stock

21 from wolves and other wild animals. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes. We had two hunters' associations, one at Scipe and one at

23 Uzdol. Hunters. We would socialise before the war. Sometimes we would

24 throw a party. We would go hunting together, that sort of thing. There

25 were quite a number of hunters before the war. They used shotguns,

Page 71

1 sawn-off shotguns, that sort of thing. Very few people had proper carbine

2 rifles, hunting rifles.

3 Q. I understand that. I should ask you this question actually: Was

4 your father one such hunter while he was alive?

5 A. Yes. My father, myself, we had a shotgun, 16-millimetre shotgun.

6 You have two types, a 12-millimetre shotgun and a 16-millimetre shotgun,

7 and we had a 16.

8 Q. Thank you. I think you answered a little bit earlier that after

9 the very beginning early days of the armed conflict, the army issued some

10 older regular carbines, M-48s, to the elderly civilians that filled these

11 roles. Is that correct?

12 A. Some new rifles were supplied and everybody wanted to have a

13 Kalashnikov, a modern rifle. No one wanted to have the old ones. And

14 some were eventually given these new and better rifles.

15 Q. Yes, I understand. Okay. Now, just turning to the military

16 situation that was in place just before the tragedies took place in Uzdol.

17 At that time you were aware that there was the possibility -- well, I take

18 that back. I'll put it another way.

19 The HVO forces themselves were planning offensive operations in

20 the area of Uzdol and perhaps a little bit further up towards Crni Vrh?

21 A. I don't know about that. No, not until Uzdol fell. They didn't

22 attack and we didn't attack. They held their lines and we held ours.

23 There was some random shooting every now and then. Sometimes one or two

24 soldiers would be killed on their side or HVO soldiers, but there were no

25 fierce attacks, no fierce fighting until the 14th. There were random

Page 72

1 incursions, attacks, against the Vakuf and the front lines further down.

2 As for Komin and Here and the lines that we held, there was nothing much

3 happening.

4 Q. I just want to be very clear about the specific. Is it your

5 evidence that you had no knowledge of a forthcoming attack by the HVO

6 against Bosnian army positions, such attack due to be carried out on the

7 14th of September or very soon afterwards?

8 A. No. They didn't tell us anything.

9 Q. Very well. Now, were you also aware that there was the

10 possibility of an attack by the Bosnian army in the neighbourhood of Uzdol

11 on the 13th or 14th of September or very shortly afterwards?

12 A. Nothing happened before the 13th, and then on the 13th and 14th I

13 was in Prozor. There was an announcement that they would attack Crni Vrh

14 in the area of Makljen, those lines over there. That morning Uzdol was

15 attacked and then the army went to Crni Vrh because Uzdol received

16 reinforcements from Crni Vrh.

17 Q. Yes. But my questions really relate to what you were told before

18 these attacks took place. Were you told by your superiors that there was

19 the possibility of an attack by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in your

20 sector?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Very well.

23 A. Had I known about it, obviously I would have taken my family away,

24 my father, my mother, and my child.

25 Q. All right. Now, my next question -- you've already answered my

Page 73

1 next question by that answer.

2 My next question is this: That the command post of the

3 3rd Battalion was screened from actual the front line by the villages

4 Kriz, Rajici, and the other hamlets where these killings took place. Is

5 that correct? In other words, those villages where the tragedies happened

6 were between the command post of the 3rd Battalion and the front line. Is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. These villages were effectively in the front line. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. Well, no, they were between the lines because the line was up

12 there. From Zelenike you have Komin about two or three kilometres away.

13 That's the line near the village, but they didn't attack the line. They

14 entered the space in between. And as Borak near Kriz.

15 Q. Yes, I understand that. But what I --

16 A. Borak is closer to Kriz.

17 Q. Okay. Well, I think it might be appropriate that I show you a

18 document here. I'm sorry, no, I might delay that. I'll have to get a

19 particular photocopy made before I show you that document. So just excuse

20 me for a moment.

21 All right. Just in terms of the situation on the front line,

22 though, that was the position: There were villages that were exclusively

23 Muslim which included the villages of Here, Scipe, and Kute. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. No. There were Croats in Scipe, it's a mixed village. And there

Page 74

1 was Grubesas also up there, and Here -- well, the population wasn't mixed

2 there. And the village of Skarice belonged to Kute. There were two or

3 three houses there in Skara that belonged to village Kute, but Here wasn't

4 mixed. In Scipe there was Grubesas, Markici. Those are the Croatian

5 parts. And towards Salakovac there was Ivanci and Pajici. And there's

6 Banja Lucica further down which is also part -- which also comes under my

7 office, but Ivanci, Pajici, and Banjici are purely Croatian villages.

8 Q. Now, you were not present in Uzdol when the actual fighting and

9 killing took place. Is that correct?

10 A. No. My wife had a child that morning; I remained there that

11 evening and that's when that happened.

12 Q. Okay. By the time you came to the village it was already

13 daylight -- I'm sorry, by the time you came to Uzdol it was already

14 daylight. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, it was daylight. The ABiH had already left Uzdol and left in

16 the direction of Here.

17 Q. And by the time you got there do you recall whether there was

18 still heavy firing of artillery or not?

19 A. There was firing, mortar fire. I don't know who was firing. You

20 couldn't see much because of the smoke, but there was sporadic firing from

21 the hill.

22 Q. And even at the time when you were there, visibility over long

23 distances was somewhat obscured by smoke from the burning buildings which

24 you've described. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that's correct. The livestock was on fire, too, so there was

Page 75

1 a stench the air in the stables.

2 Q. All right. Now, what I'm going to do is take you through the --

3 through your actions when you arrived there.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: I wonder if the witness could first of all be

5 shown a photograph. I think it's MFI 298.

6 Q. What you're going to be shown here, Mr. Zelenika, is a panoramic

7 view I think of the Uzdol neighbourhood taken from the neighbourhood of

8 the school. Now -- very well. I just like --

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be assisted with the

10 marker pen.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Zelenika, some of the things I ask you about might not be

12 perfectly visible on the photograph, but I really want a general picture

13 of your movements.

14 So could you just indicate, please, where -- after you arrived at

15 the school and when you set off to go around the villages, could you just

16 use a dotted line and indicate the direction that you went from the school

17 to go around the villages and look?

18 A. Yes, I can do that. I came out here. There's a house down here

19 below, and then I came out here. We didn't take this road towards Rajici,

20 but we crossed over near the school. This is where I saw Pero Kovcalija

21 by the house that doesn't have a roof.

22 Q. Just put a 1.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. Thank you. And continue on with the dotted line.

25 A. Then I continued on in this direction and there was a Bosniak

Page 76

1 soldier here, an ABiH soldier. I then continued in this direction. And

2 here you can see the monument erected to Slavko Mendes. And then I

3 continued to this house here --

4 Q. Stop for one second. Would you put a 2 where Slavko Mendes was.

5 A. Number 2, that's near.

6 Q. Thank you. Okay. Just keep going as you did.

7 A. Number 3 is where Ivo was and what was her name? Ivka and Zora

8 was here in the woods in the vicinity of the house. And I continued in

9 this direction. And here I found Mate Ljubic and Kata Ljubic. The road

10 then --

11 Q. Stop for one moment please --

12 A. -- continues.

13 Q. The two houses you've just indicated where you saw Ivo and so on,

14 what's that called? Is that the start of Zelenike or what's the name of

15 that area?

16 A. It's all called Cer, the school, the two houses here, and this

17 house that was a chemists before the war. It isn't open now.

18 Q. So really the -- where Ivo, Domin, Ivka, and Zorka were --

19 A. That's all -- the entire area is called Cer. Right up to the

20 church it's Cer.

21 Q. Yes. Well, it's just going to -- it will assist the Tribunal now

22 and later on if we can say where the killed people were killed, and I'm

23 sorry to take you through it in detail again, but it's important.

24 So anyway, Ivo, Domin, Ivka are at Cer and so also is Mato and

25 Kata Ljubic. Is that correct?

Page 77

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you --

3 A. Yes, they're also there.

4 Q. Yes, you proceed.

5 A. The road continues here up to Perkovici. This is their old house,

6 and Stipo and Kata lived there. Kata was killed and Stipo survived. He

7 died later on at his son's in Dubrovnik. He had two sons in Dubrovnik.

8 This is the new son, Perkovici, and the son Slavko lives there. No one

9 lives in the old house in which Kata was killed now.

10 It's number 5, isn't it?

11 Q. That's correct. Keep going, yes.

12 A. 5. And this house is Kovcalija, number 6.

13 Q. Before we get to that, could you just keep the dotted line going,

14 showing the path that you took in general terms.

15 A. The road goes in this direction and this is Mara's house.

16 Q. May I ask you to stop for one second, please. Where you've drawn

17 that zigzagging line, what's the name of that village there? Is that

18 Zelenike?

19 A. That's Zelenike, and at the top we have Zelici.

20 Q. Have I stopped you at the point where you went past Zelici?

21 A. When I returned from Zelici down below where I found Stipo Marici

22 and the wife, we didn't use the same path to return; we used a different

23 route.

24 Q. Now, I understand that. Could I stop you there. Would you just

25 mark please with an X that is visible there where you saw the two young

Page 78

1 children on the road, young Stjepan in particular.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. I understand. Now, I'll ask you to continue in a moment, but just

4 for future reference to make it easy, do you see the red numbers in the

5 top corner of the screen on the right-hand side? It's says 0402 --

6 A. I see the number.

7 Q. Okay. Just between --

8 A. 894.

9 Q. Between those numbers and the red line you've drawn, would you

10 mind writing the word "Zelenike" quite small there.

11 A. Zelenike?

12 Q. Excellent. Thank you very much.

13 A. This is Cer.

14 Q. Please do write Cer.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Thank you. Would you continue with the road that you took?

17 A. And there is a road that goes this way. We have Budim here.

18 Q. Okay. Stop for one moment at Budimi. Is Budimi a very small

19 hamlet?

20 A. It's a hamlet with three or four houses up to the cemetery. Our

21 cemetery is up here. We then followed the road in this way, passed

22 through these meadows and reached Ante Stojanovic's house in Kriz.

23 Q. Okay. Now, would you just write -- well -- keep drawing the path

24 that you took and then I'll get you to write "Kriz" over there.

25 A. There's a hill here so you go around the hill. This is where

Page 79

1 Stojanovic's house is; you can see it.

2 Q. All right.

3 A. In corner above there's the village of Bobari, a Croatian village.

4 Q. Let me stop you there for one moment. I just want to clarify

5 something here. In this photograph is it possible to see the whole of the

6 village of Kriz or is it concealed?

7 A. No, you can't. There's a hill so you can only see Brko's or Ante

8 Stojanovic's house, and an old house at the top. But the other village,

9 the village faces Krstiste.

10 Q. What I would like you to do is write the word "Kriz" there where

11 the village is, even though we know it's on the other side of that hill.

12 A. There's a road now that goes to Franjo's house. It goes around

13 the hill.

14 Q. Okay. I understand.

15 Now, before we go any further, could you explain to the Court what

16 is the name of the big hill that you can see in the distance there and to

17 the right?

18 A. To the right?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. In the photograph?

21 Q. I mean on the horizon. There's quite a high hill there.

22 A. At the top there's a kill we call Konsko, that's the top.

23 Q. Could you indicate -- don't write anything yet, but I'll get you

24 to do a mark in a minute. But on that photograph the hill of Krstiste is

25 on the right -- is out of the photograph on the right-hand side. Is that

Page 80

1 correct?

2 A. To the right you can see Here and this hill continues in this

3 direction, and below there was Borak. Our line was there. There was a

4 house up there above the road.

5 Q. Just to assist when people come to look at this drawing later on -

6 it's going to be a very helpful drawing - and I wonder if you would write

7 "Krstiste," naming the hill and point an arrow in the direction where

8 Krstiste is to be found. Maybe write it up near those numbers 04020894

9 and then draw an arrow pointing to where Krstiste is. Now I'm sorry

10 about --

11 A. Krstiste. That's on the hill here.

12 Q. Yes, okay.

13 Now, that's enough of Krstiste. Could you just continue with the

14 line that you took. Just continue drawing the dotted line where you went.

15 I understand you were out of sight --

16 A. We were here by this village and then we returned. We took this

17 route. We continued in this direction, and the road passes behind the

18 church.

19 Q. Okay. Would you mark in now on that map where Rajici is, please?

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. Okay. And is the area where the two churches are considered to be

22 part of Rajici or part of Cer?

23 A. The churches?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Up in between. You have the houses in Cer and the old school down

Page 81

1 below, the school that you can see.

2 Q. I understand. Now, would you please mark the village of Here.

3 A. The village of Here.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. There's the Croatian village of Pale here. This is the village of

6 Pale. It was a Croatian village, and it's been burnt down. There's

7 nothing there now. Bobari is here. Bobari, Pribucak there's quite a

8 number of hamlets.

9 Q. We won't be concerned with Bobari at the moment. But would you

10 just mark in --

11 A. This is Kucari.

12 Q. Would you mind just marking in -- writing in the name Budimi where

13 that is?

14 A. Budimi, here it is, between Kriz and Zelenike, there's a stream

15 there.

16 Q. Okay. So Budimi is quite a low-lying village in that terrain. Is

17 that correct?

18 A. It's quite high up. Mendes is down below. We passed through

19 Budimi, so we didn't mention Mendes. There's a little hamlet, two houses,

20 and it's called Mendes. There's Mendes, Josip; Mendes, Zora. There are

21 three or four of them. But nothing was burned down there. Only the first

22 stable that belonged to Zora right near the road to Rajici was burnt.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. Do you recall -- when you were

24 walking -- sorry, I'll stop there for a moment.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I offer that document for tender.

Page 82

1 JUDGE LIU: No objection?

2 MR. WEINER: No objection.

3 JUDGE LIU: It is admitted into the evidence.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit D314.

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Just excuse me one moment, please.

6 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Zelenika, I've just lost my place. Here we are.

7 All right. I want to take you to some of the incidents upon which

8 you -- some of the things that you noticed when you walked around that

9 path you've indicated to us. And the first thing I want to do is take you

10 to the village of Kriz, when you got to Kriz. Do you recall as you got to

11 the foot of the hill at Kriz that you came to the house of Ante

12 Stojanovic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And Ante is the person who had the nickname of Brko because

15 of his moustache. Is that correct?

16 A. He was called Brko because he would have a small moustache. He

17 used to wear a short moustache, but that was his nickname, Brko,

18 moustache, probably because of his moustache. He worked in Austria,

19 Germany, and he was retired.

20 Q. Okay. Now, at that point did you notice a surviving person called

21 Ivka Stojanovic emerge?

22 A. About 30 to 50 metres away from where Brko was there was a sort of

23 borderline area where two meadows join each other and there was some plum

24 trees there, some thorny bushes, et cetera, and that's where we found Ivka

25 Zelenika, or rather Stojanovic, but Zelenika was her maiden name. We

Page 83

1 found her in the underbrush there because she was Luca's daughter and she

2 got married to Nevenko Stojanovic in Kriz. He is in Austria and is now

3 retired.

4 Q. Okay. Now, was she -- I've got some questions about Ivka and what

5 happened with Ivka there. When Ivka came out -- can I ask you, are you

6 personally related to Ivka in any way?

7 A. Yes, I am. Because my father and Ivka were the children of two

8 brothers. Ivka's mother was my parent's aunt and Ivka's father was my

9 father's uncle.

10 Q. Okay. Thank you. And did Ivka have at that time or does she have

11 a son?

12 A. She has a son Janko he was wounded then.

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Ivka thought that he had been killed, but he hadn't been killed.

15 I told her that the mother had been killed. She was worried about Janko

16 more than about her mother.

17 Q. I'll come to that conversation in just a moment. I just wanted to

18 establish some relationships first before I ask you about it. And at that

19 time how old was her son, Janko, who she was worried about?

20 A. Well, he was an HVO soldier.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. But that morning -- well, he was over 20 years old. He's now

23 married, lives in Zagreb, but I don't know when he was born exactly. He

24 has a child.

25 Q. That's okay. I won't -- you've answered the question

Page 84

1 satisfactorily, thank you.

2 Anyway, when Ivka came out she told you that her son had saved her

3 by shooting at the enemy while she got away. Is that correct?

4 A. No, she doesn't remember that. All she says is she doesn't know

5 anything. Someone came across her when she fell down on the path and

6 someone trampled on her apparently, but she thought that he had remained

7 in the village of Mrdana [phoen]. He hadn't remained there, he fled, down

8 below. You can see this in the photograph. He descended from Kriz down

9 to Polje and then fled in the direction of Prozor. And Ivka couldn't

10 remember anything. She was scared.

11 Q. Yes. Look, I understand that. Could I just ask you, the video

12 that you've just looked at that the Prosecutor showed you. You were shown

13 that video of course before giving evidence here in the Tribunal. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Very well. Were you shown the whole thing or not?

17 A. No, not the whole thing.

18 Q. Apart from --

19 A. Excerpts.

20 Q. There's a part which -- were you shown the excerpts which were

21 shown in court today and nothing else?

22 A. I saw them, yes. Others I wasn't shown but only briefly. I have

23 been shown far more today.

24 Q. Yes, I understand. Sorry, just to clarify that, you were shown

25 more today than what you've seen in proofing. Is that what you're saying?

Page 85

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Well --

3 A. The images of Stipe really affected me.

4 Q. Well, I'm not going to show you the images of Stipe and I'm not

5 going to show you any images from your own home, so you can be rest

6 assured of that. But I have some images now that I'm going to have to

7 show you. Okay.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: I would just ask that the witness be shown the

9 section of the audio/visual tape commencing at 40.34, and it will take

10 about three minutes of time. Sorry, just excuse me, that will have to be

11 cued up.

12 Q. What we're going to show you now so you know what's coming is a

13 part of the video where Ivka Stojanovic appears and speaks. And I'll get

14 you to look at that and then I'll ask you some questions about it.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, could I indicate that the part that

17 I want played is we think at 40.34. The screen is indicating a later

18 stage at this point. So unfortunately I think the cue might have been

19 jumped. So it's 40.34 that we want if possible.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry. Your Honours, this is not the passage

22 that we want to have played to the witness. Might Your Honour excuse me,

23 I'm going to make an inquiry as to where the difficulty might be.

24 MR. WEINER: It's listed in paragraph 48, 43.14. Instead of 40.34

25 it should be 43.14.

Page 86

1 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I'm grateful for that assistance from the

2 Prosecution. Perhaps that could be tried. Your Honours, it's at page 16,

3 17, and 18 of the transcript.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Ivka.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, thank you. That's far enough. Thank you.

8 Very well.

9 Q. Before I ask you some questions about that, I just want to raise a

10 matter with the Tribunal now, Mr. Zelenika. Just excuse me.

11 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, the Prosecution have provided us

12 with a transcript of this tape in full long ago. The complete transcript

13 has of course been provided. I take it that that would be part of the

14 exhibit with the tape, but I didn't clarify that at the time. Perhaps I

15 could just clarify that with my learned friend now, whether that's a part

16 of the exhibit.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MR. WEINER: We have no objection. For completeness it should go

19 in with the video.

20 JUDGE LIU: Of course. Generally speaking, the transcript will go

21 with the video.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Rather than having a separate exhibit, Your

23 Honour, yes.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, thank you.

Page 87

1 JUDGE LIU: But could we be furnished with that part of the

2 translation?


4 JUDGE LIU: Otherwise it will lead us to nowhere.

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I was under the mistake that there

6 would be a simultaneous translation of that. I'm sorry. It's certainly

7 not the interpreters' fault in the booth. I just had achieved a state of

8 mind that it was going to happen. It's my fault. In fact, I should have

9 ensured it. But what I'll do is ask the witness some questions. I'll

10 indicate too that I'll provide, we'll provide copies of the entire

11 transcript and, in particular, of the pages which we've referred to.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.


14 Q. Mr. Zelenika, my sorry, my hand-fistedness has caused a delay

15 there, but now I can ask you some questions.

16 You haven't seen that part of the tape for many years, if ever.

17 Is that correct?

18 A. No, I simply didn't want to. I knew the tape existed, but I

19 refused to see it. This was tough enough for me now. There were tapes

20 about Prozor, too, some people watched those tapes but I refused to. My

21 wife refused to. And I didn't want my children to see these tapes.

22 Q. We can understand that and that's okay. But now that you've seen

23 that tape you agree that Ivka Stojanovic made it perfectly plain that she

24 got away because her son fired shots to save her. Is that correct?

25 A. I don't know. I was in Prozor at the time when her son escaped.

Page 88

1 I met him down by the Stojanovic's house; he had already escaped. We only

2 found her later in the afternoon in that thicket up on the hill.

3 I wasn't in Kriz. He must have been in the house. He probably

4 hadn't been on duty that morning, but I can't tell you how he managed to

5 escape. We found him near this border between the two meadows, and we

6 found the son on our way from Prozor back to Uzdol, and another person,

7 too, named Fabjan Ratkic. He is Martin and Kata's son. He ran across the

8 field. They were just running, Fabjan and Janko as well, running towards

9 Prozor.

10 Q. I understand what you say about that. But you watched Ivka on the

11 screen then and first of all you can tell the Tribunal here that that was

12 Ivka, wasn't it, that you just saw?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And when you listened on the screen then you heard Ivka

15 saying: "My name is Ivka Stojanovic." And then you heard her

16 saying: "In the house" -- you heard her being asked, Ivka

17 Stojanovic, "where were you when these" -- and she said: "In the house.

18 One called me to go up there. Come, Grandma, come up here. I will not

19 harm you. Then I just -- then I fell. I don't know what else to do.

20 Someone stepped on me, who it was, I don't know. I rolled down while

21 crawling into those thorny shrubs."

22 Do you remember her saying that on the tape?

23 A. Yes. But she didn't fall down outside her house. She fell down

24 where we found her, near the other house near the thicket. She was

25 running away, and she probably fell down at some point and someone knocked

Page 89

1 her down, but it was closer to the Rajic's house. There's a slope there,

2 and I believe that's where she fell down. We found her nearer Brko's

3 house than her own.

4 Q. All right. I understand what you say. But what I'm asking about

5 now is what you've seen on that tape and what you heard her saying. And

6 you recall that she was then asked on the tape: "And did you have anyone

7 else in the house?"

8 And she said: "Yes, I did."

9 And then a male voice said: "Son Janko?"

10 And she said: "My son Janko was there."

11 And my question to you is: You heard her saying that on the tape

12 a minute ago just a minute ago, didn't you?

13 A. Yes. Janko was a soldier. He had not been an duty that morning.

14 He'd been on leave but he had to flee his house.

15 Q. Okay. I understand that, but I just want to go on with what you

16 heard said on the tape. You remember she was asked the question: "Was he

17 also in the house?"

18 And Ivka said: "Poor thing, down there he fired behind the

19 corner. I yelled, Mato yelled. He said, Here they come into the village

20 from Rajici" -- it's written Ratkici here but anyway.

21 "Here they come into the village from Rajici" --

22 A. Ratkici.

23 Q. Thank you for the correction.

24 Then she yelled: "Run mom, I will shoot so that you can go. I

25 don't know about anyone else anymore."

Page 90

1 Now, you heard her say that on the tape, didn't you?

2 A. Yes. Well, I don't know. I wasn't there when her son was there,

3 when she was running. She must have stayed in the thicket for about four

4 or five hours until we found her.

5 Q. Okay. But even on the day when you spoke to her you had the

6 information that her son had been shooting in the neighbourhood of her

7 house at the invading forces. Is that correct?

8 A. I don't remember that. I don't remember who said what once we got

9 there. She's a relative of mine. I saw that she was scared. She didn't

10 say anything to me. I have no idea what happened in their house because

11 where we found her was quite a distance from their house.

12 Q. Okay. Now, her son, you've indicated, was not on duty that day.

13 Was it your understanding that he had spent the night in her house?

14 A. I don't know whether he had spent the night in the house. Maybe

15 he'd been at the front line and he only arrived early in the morning, but

16 I really can't say because I was in Prozor myself.

17 Q. Was he in uniform when you saw him?

18 A. He was in uniform. He was running maybe 30 or 40 metres ahead of

19 me. His name was Ivan Mehuric. I knew him and I knew Fabjan but I was

20 nowhere near hem. We were on our way to Mijo Maric's house, and they ran

21 from Kriz straight down the slope. But I knew them and their names were

22 Janko and Fabjan Ratkic. I believe they're still alive.

23 Q. Was Fabjan in uniform when you saw him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. And how long -- and when was it that you saw these two boys

Page 91

1 or these two men Fabjan and Janko? Was that before you met with Ivka or

2 later on?

3 A. Before we found her. The soldiers were all sleeping there in

4 uniform. Whenever they were off duty they still had to be in uniform,

5 where we were wearing civilian clothes ourselves. So it was very obvious.

6 A soldier always had to be a soldier, had to remain a soldier, and they

7 were not allowed to wear civilian clothes at the time.

8 Q. I understand that. Were you wearing civilian clothes when you

9 came to the village?

10 A. No, I was wearing a uniform. I was not allowed to wear civilian

11 clothes. You were forbidden as a soldier to wear civilian.

12 Q. I understand that. But when you were off duty you were required

13 to keep your personal weapon and some ammunition with you, weren't you?

14 A. Yes. You had to keep your personal ammunition. You would go to

15 the cowshed to look after your livestock. You would take them over to the

16 creek to give them water and then you would tie them up right there.

17 Q. So when you took -- when you were off duty and you were dealing

18 with the livestock, was it your -- I'm asking you about your personal

19 custom now. When you were off duty and you were dealing with your own

20 livestock, was it your practice to carry the weapon with you for security

21 reasons?

22 A. Yes. You can't go down the road without a rifle. What sort of a

23 soldier would that be?

24 Q. No, no. But even when you were off duty, that was your practice,

25 wasn't it, to take the weapon with you?

Page 92

1 A. Yes, I would take it home, I would leave it there, and you would

2 go and do something else. You would help out your father, your mother.

3 You didn't have the rifle on you all the time, but if you were leaving the

4 front line you had to bring your rifle with you.

5 Q. And it did happen from time to time that you would have other

6 pieces of military equipment with you such as hand grenades. Is that

7 correct? And I mean even when you were off duty. Is that correct?

8 A. Hand grenades?

9 Q. Yes, hand grenades.

10 A. I didn't have hand grenades, not ever.

11 Q. Yes. But it was well and truly within your knowledge that other

12 people in the village did have hand grenades in their house. Is that

13 correct?

14 A. Every soldier would sign for a number of hand grenades. Sometimes

15 there was a shortage of these, so people didn't have them. And sometimes

16 people used them. This was not a proper army, you know.

17 Q. No, no, I -- I understand that, but I just have to do -- I have to

18 ask you to deal with my specific question here. It was well and truly

19 within your knowledge, wasn't it, that some people in the village had hand

20 grenades in their house? Now, is the answer to that yes or no?

21 MR. WEINER: I would object to that, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Why?

23 MR. WEINER: He said "some people." Is he referring to soldiers?

24 Is he referring to civilians? Is he referring to the people at the

25 school? This is a matter he should be more specific with.

Page 93

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, could we have clarified.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: I certainly can.

3 JUDGE LIU: Then we'll break for --

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Definitely.

5 Q. It's in your knowledge, isn't it, that some civilians in the

6 village had hand grenades in their house? That's true, isn't it?

7 A. I don't know about that. If a soldier comes to his father's house

8 with a hand grenade, they may give the hand grenade to their father, or

9 they may not. This is not something I can speak about.

10 Q. Yes, I want you to be very careful about this. You know of at

11 least one case, don't you, where a civilian person in your village had

12 hand grenades and used hand grenades on the morning when these killings

13 took place. Do you agree with that?

14 A. I don't agree with that. I know that a hand grenade was thrown

15 near old Ruza Zelic's house. I have no idea who threw the grenade,

16 whether it was the soldiers or someone else. I have no idea who -- I saw

17 a whole there and later we found two casings.

18 Q. Did you find any hand grenades in the trousers of young Stipo when

19 those trousers were found?

20 A. No. It was a tracksuit that he wore, but he was naked when we

21 found him.

22 Q. Yes. But in those trousers, though, when they were found, were

23 there hand grenades there, those tracksuit pants?

24 A. I don't know. It was just a regular tracksuit. I didn't exactly

25 search it. When I came down, I realised that the tracksuit had been left

Page 94

1 hanging on a shrub beside the road.

2 Q. Yes. But it was told to you quite plainly that there were hand

3 grenades in that tracksuit, wasn't it?

4 A. It's a very small tracksuit worn by a child. The pocket isn't big

5 enough.

6 Q. Were you told that information or not?

7 A. No, I wasn't nor did I see that. The soldiers chasing Stipo and

8 his mother Marija dropped a magazine used for an automatic rifle and a

9 hand grenade near the thicket. It was a black hand grenade.

10 Q. Well, let's be very clear about something here: Your honest

11 evidence before this Tribunal is that you know nothing about Ruza Zelic

12 throwing hand grenades. Is that the fact?

13 A. I'm not sure now whether it was Ruza or the soldiers, and when she

14 ran I'm not sure whether she actually had a hand grenade on her or not or,

15 if so, whether she actually knew how to use it. There are soldiers around

16 who don't know how to use a hand grenade and she was a lady after all.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: That might be an appropriate moment, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 Well, Witness, I'm afraid that you have to stay in The Hague for

20 another day. And as I did to other witnesses, you are now under the oath,

21 so do not talk to anybody and do not let anybody talk to you about your

22 testimony. Do you understand that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

25 We'll resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

Page 95

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of

3 April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.