1 Wednesday, 13 April 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 5.18 p.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, this is case number
8 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.
9 Good afternoon, witness.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
11 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry for having kept you waiting for so long
12 because the previous case was not over, so we only have one sitting this
13 afternoon, we'll sit until 7.00.
14 Yes, Ms. Chana. Please continue.
15 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour,, good evening.
16 WITNESS: MARKO ZELIC [Resumed]
17 Examined by Ms. Chana: [Continued]
18 MS. CHANA:
19 Q. Mr. Marko, yesterday the last question you were asked was whether
20 you knew Enver Buza because you heard his name spoken by someone and you
21 said that you heard later who Enver Buza was. What did you learn about
22 Enver Buza?
23 A. I did not know Enver Buza myself. Only later I find out from the
24 Croatian soldiers that he was the commander of the Prozor Battalion.
25 Q. Now you said you heard soldiers' voices. Can you please assist
1 the Chamber with, again, how many voices were they and how many soldiers
2 you saw?
3 A. I saw three soldiers, and I just heard one voice asking, "What are
4 we going to do with the women and the children?"
5 Q. And did you hear a reply?
6 A. Yes. I heard a soldier reply, "They should kill everybody that
7 they caught."
8 Q. Were they talking amongst each other or was there -- were they --
9 did you see any equipment, communication equipment on the soldiers?
10 A. I didn't see whether they had any communication equipment. I
11 suppose it was a Motorola they had.
12 Q. Why do you suppose they had a Motorola?
13 A. When these people asked, "What are we going to do with the women
14 and the children?" I suppose they were not talking amongst each other but
15 that they were asking somebody else.
16 Q. Did you just suppose or did you see a Motorola or did you hear
17 anything that suggested to you that it was a communication device?
18 A. I did not see anything, but I suppose that that is the way it was.
19 Q. Would you please tell us how far away you were in your hiding
20 place from where the soldiers - excuse me - and where your family was
22 A. Six to seven metres.
23 Q. Now, yesterday I showed you this photograph of the junction, which
24 is MFI 357. If that could please be brought on to the screen. Is it
25 there before you? Yes.
1 Can you tell us on this picture, where it is that your family was
2 standing? Is it possible? Can you see it here?
3 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I'm not sure the witness said they
4 were standing anywhere. I don't think he said anything about how they
5 were positioned. I don't object to the witness marking where they were
6 when he last saw them, but if they were standing still or standing, then
7 he'd better give that evidence rather than having it put to him, in my
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, standing means they are on their feet.
10 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, if that's all it means -- I was really
11 concerned with the issue of movement or stillness, frankly. With that
12 then I took standing to mean stillness in the question that was asked. I
13 might be wrong about that, but I know what my friend is getting at with
14 the question. It's quite a proper question; it just had that word
15 standing. That's what I was concerned by
16 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could clarify that.
17 MS. CHANA:
18 Q. Yes. Now, you said you were in a hiding place. What was your
19 family doing, and where were they? Can you be really quite detailed about
20 this? Thank you.
21 A. From my hiding place, I could not see whether they were standing
22 or not. According to what I could hear, the conversation, I suppose that
23 they were standing at the junction that you see before you.
24 Q. So just to be quite clear, you could not see them, you could just
25 hear them?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. And in what direction did you hear your mother pleading, as you
3 said, with the soldiers not to kill her from where you were?
4 A. In the direction of this junction. Towards my house.
5 Q. Okay. Then tell us, did you hear anything else, what the soldiers
6 said, other than what you've already told this Court?
7 A. I heard them talking, but I cannot recall exactly what it was that
8 they were saying.
9 Q. All right. What happened next?
10 A. After I had heard what they were planning to do with the women and
11 children, when I heard them say that they should kill every person that
12 they caught, after that I heard bursts of fire as well as individual shots
13 being fired.
14 Q. And you were still continuing to hide?
15 A. Yes, I was.
16 Q. And do you know what happened to the soldiers after these bursts
17 of fire? Did they talk again, did they say anything?
18 A. Yes. They talked again, but I don't know what about.
19 Q. About how many gunshots did you hear? If you can remember, of
21 A. I cannot remember with precision, but I could hear bursts of fire
22 and individual shots being fired.
23 Q. Were you, at 15 years of age, familiar with firearms yourself?
24 A. I had seen automatic rifles carried by our soldiers.
25 Q. Were you familiar with the sounds different weapons made?
1 A. Well, there were bursts of fire and individual gunshots.
2 Q. And what would you attribute that noise to, what kind of weapon,
3 if you can. What did you think the weapons were?
4 A. I thought they were automatic weapons.
5 Q. When you saw the soldiers, had you seen any weapons on them?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What kind of weapons were they carrying?
8 A. As far as I could see, they were carrying automatic rifles.
9 Q. Now, did you hear any voices from your family at this time?
10 A. I did not understand you quite correctly. At which particular
12 Q. After the bursts of gunfire.
13 A. After the bursts of fire and after the individual shots, I did not
14 hear any voices anymore.
15 Q. Now, after you said the soldiers talked a little bit, what
16 happened after that?
17 A. After the bursts of fire and the individual gunshots, I could hear
18 from what the soldiers were talking amongst themselves that they were
19 going to move, that they were moving in the direction of the village and
20 towards the school there.
21 Q. What is it which made you say that that's where they were moving?
22 What did they say that you heard?
23 A. I really do not remember exactly what it was precisely that I
24 heard, but I heard -- I could deduct from what they were saying that they
25 were moving away from the spot in which they were.
1 Q. Now, how soon after those bursts of fire did you hear the soldiers
2 say they are now moving? Was it immediately or did they -- was it some
4 A. As far as I can recall, not long after the shooting.
5 Q. Now, after the soldiers moved away, what did you do?
6 Mr. Marko, you take your time. Don't force yourself to say
7 anything. If you need sometime, just take it.
8 A. I went out of my hiding place and down to the road where I saw my
9 brother and sister lying dead, and my mother.
10 Q. Mr. Marko, I know this is extremely difficult for you, and that is
11 why I'm not showing you the photographs where it actually depicts your
12 family. But I would like you to look at MFI 357 again, please, and if you
13 could tell us from that picture where you saw the bodies of your family.
14 Is it possible for you to do that? If it's not, Mr. Marko, that
15 would be perfectly all right as well. If you just draw circles and
17 If you first tell us where your brother was, Stjepan.
18 A. [Marks].
19 Q. Would you put, in that circle, a 1, please. Or just put S for
20 Stjepan, if that's all right, sorry.
21 And would you now please tell us where your sister Marija's body
22 was. Circle that and put an M inside that circle.
23 A. [Marks].
24 Q. Now, can you please put another circle for your mother and put
25 an R.
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Marko.
3 MS. CHANA: I'll tender that photograph.
4 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it is admitted into the evidence.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P357.
7 MS. CHANA: Thank you.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Marko, when you saw the bodies, and I'll only ask you
9 about your brother Stjepan, did he have his trousers on him?
10 A. No, he did not. He only had his underwear on him.
11 Q. Do you recall what happened to his trousers?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Had he had them on as you were running away from the house?
14 A. I do not remember that.
15 Q. Now, what did you -- what kind of wounds did you observe on the
16 bodies when you saw them? And we'll start with Stjepan.
17 A. I could see that there was blood on my brother's head around his
19 Q. Anything else that you noticed on your brother Stjepan?
20 Mr. Marko, I'll just move on from this in a minute, whenever you
21 feel you're ready to go on, and then if you feel we may revisit it or not,
22 as the case may be.
23 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I might be able to assist a little
24 bit here.
25 Can I indicate that I was not going to cross-examine on the wounds
1 that he observed on his siblings and his mother, and so frankly I don't
2 mind if my friend doesn't deal with it or -- it's up to her really, but
3 that's my indication.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, could we skip this part?
5 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour, I had every intention to do so.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
7 MS. CHANA:
8 Q. Mr. Marko, we will not talk about this anymore and everybody
9 entirely understands, so please do not worry about it.
10 Now, after what happened, what did you do next?
11 A. I went a bit farther away from my -- from the place where I had
12 been hiding. I went away some distance, I'm not quite sure, about 100
13 metres away from that place. And there I stopped because I did not dare
14 run anymore because they were shooting all around me. And I could see
15 smoke billowing in the surrounding villages from the houses and stables
16 that had been set on fire.
17 Q. How long did you continue to stay wherever you were? I presume --
18 you said in the forest; right?
19 A. Yes. I actually spent almost a whole day on that spot.
20 Q. You just stayed there waiting for the fire, the firing to abate
21 or ...
22 A. Yes. I waited for the firing to die down so that I could move
23 away from that place.
24 Q. And did you eventually move away from that place?
25 A. Yes, I did. I went on in the direction of the village of Rajici.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. When I came to the road, I met our soldiers and they recognised me
3 and then they took me to the town of Prozor.
4 Q. Now, did you return to your house sometime later?
5 A. No, not on that day. But sometime later, yes, I did.
6 Q. What was the state of your house when you saw it next time?
7 A. The windows of the house were shattered. When we went inside the
8 house, we could see the effects of the two hand-grenades that had been
9 thrown into the house, and we would see the pock-marked walls as a result
10 of the bullets that had entered the house.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Marko, did you have an older brother by the name of Ivan
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you tell us what happened to him?
15 A. He was an HVO member, and he was killed on the 24th of January,
17 Q. And in your home, did you have any weapons of any kind?
18 A. Yes. I had two hunting rifles.
19 Q. And anything else?
20 A. And two grenades that remained from my late brother Ivan.
21 Q. Did you ever see those grenades again?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, did you ever go back to live in your house?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. Mr. Marko, I would like to thank you very much for answering my
2 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, that would be my examination-in-chief.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Cross-examination, please, Mr. Morrissey.
4 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, thanks very much, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:
6 Q. First of all, I have a question about your brother who was an army
8 When he died in January of 1993, whereabouts in the house did he
9 leave the two hand-grenades that you've mentioned?
10 A. They were in our new house where the two hunting rifles were, as
11 far as I know.
12 Q. And when you came back to the village after all of these sad
13 events, did you ever find those two hand-grenades or not?
14 A. My uncle came there before I did, and he took the two hunting
15 rifles and anything of value in the house. I do not know whether the two
16 hand-grenades were among the things he took.
17 Q. What is the name of your uncle?
18 A. Pavo Zelic.
19 Q. Yes. And was Pavo, at that time, a member of the HVO?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And on the morning when the killings took place, was Pavo on duty
22 or was he off duty as an HVO soldier?
23 A. As far as I know, he was on duty that morning.
24 Q. And based upon what you were told, whereabouts was he on duty that
1 A. At the Zelijaca [phoen] position.
2 Q. Is the Zelijaca position one which is about 500 meters from
3 another HVO position called Borak?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When Pavo was off duty, in which house did he used to stay?
6 A. In his house.
7 Q. Was that house in Zelenike village?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Mr. Zelic, we've had evidence from other witnesses about the
10 numbers of people remaining in the village of Kriz, and I'd just like to
11 ask you a little bit about who was living in the village of Zelenike on
12 the morning of the killings.
13 Firstly on the morning of the 14th of September of 1993, can you
14 recall how many men of the Zelenike village were members of the HVO,
16 A. I don't know this information precisely.
17 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, there's not an objection to this
18 particular question. But in general I would just like to say that the boy
19 was only 15 years old, and I think learned counsel should bear that in
20 mind with some of the questions he's going to ask him.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.
22 MR. MORRISSEY:
23 Q. To your knowledge, were a number of the member of the village of
24 Zelenike members of the HVO army at that time?
25 A. As far as I know, they were all in the HVO.
1 Q. Yes. And does that -- were you aware at that time of an
2 organisation for the older men called the home guard?
3 A. I don't know about that.
4 Q. Just exercising your memory as best you can now, do you recall any
5 of the older men of the village of Zelenike performing duties such as
6 patrolling the village streets or indeed any other such duties in early
7 September 1993?
8 A. As far as I can recall, they didn't do those things.
9 Q. Okay. Now, just as to those two hand-grenades, when was the last
10 time you'd seen those two hand-grenades before the killings? Had you seen
11 them a day before, a month before, or a week before? What's your best
13 A. About a month before, something like that.
14 Q. Okay. Had your brother, who was in the HVO, ever explained to you
15 how those grenades were to be used if your house or the village was
17 A. No. He never explained that to me, nor did he ever allow me to
18 come near them.
19 Q. Did he ever explain to you how did -- perhaps I'll take another
21 After he died, I take it you didn't have, in the family house, his
22 personal weapon, his army rifle; is that correct?
23 A. No, I didn't.
24 Q. Okay. As to the hunting rifles, did he show you how to shoot
25 those rifles?
1 A. No.
2 Q. As a 15-year-old boy, you had fired -- or I should ask you rather
3 than putting the proposition. Had you fired either of those rifles in
4 your life?
5 A. No, I hadn't.
6 Q. The Uzdol area is primarily a farming area, is it not?
7 A. You could say that, yes.
8 Q. Yes. And is it, in fact, an area where sometimes wild creatures
9 will come, such as wolves?
10 A. Boars, foxes, hares.
11 Q. Was it ever known that a bear would come to that area?
12 A. As far as I can remember, no.
13 Q. But it was very common for householders to have in their house a
14 hunting firearm; is that correct?
15 A. My late father had been a hunter. He had the proper licences for
16 those rifles.
17 Q. Yes. Indeed there was a hunting club of some sort in the village,
18 was there not, to which the Zelenika family belonged or members of the
19 Zelenika family belonged? Is that correct?
20 A. The member of the--
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter was not sure. She heard the
22 members of the Zelic family, yes.
23 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, I'm sorry. Perhaps I may not have asked the
24 question well and the interpreter had a doubt, Mr. Zelic. You'll have to
25 forgive me I'll just ask the question again.
1 Q. In that hunting club were there members of the Zelenika family, to
2 your knowledge?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were there also members of the Zelic family, your own family?
5 A. Yes, my late father.
6 Q. Yes. You may have been too young at the time to know, but you may
7 know, so I'll ask you the question: Before the hostilities broke out
8 between the HVO and the Bosnian army, were you aware that the Uzdol
9 hunting club had, in fact, associated in quite a friendly way with a
10 hunting club primarily of Muslim people from the village of Scipe?
11 A. I didn't understand what village you are referring to.
12 Q. Mr. Zelic, it will be my pronunciations, no doubt.
13 Do you know the village of Scipe, S-c-i-p-e, which is primarily a
14 Muslim village some distance away, Scipe?
15 A. As far as I know, hunters from Kute would come together with my
17 Q. Okay. The hunters from Kute were primarily Muslim people; is that
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. And in the days before the fighting commenced between the Bosnian
21 army and the HVO, your father, and indeed your family, had friendly
22 relations with Muslim families from elsewhere including Kute; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Very well. Are you able to comment on this proposition? I'll put
1 a proposition to you; you tell us if it's accurate or not.
2 It was likely that quite a few Muslim people knew that in the
3 houses in Uzdol, even when there weren't military people there, there
4 might well be hunting weapons there. Are you able to comment on that
5 proposition or not?
6 A. I can't comment on that.
7 Q. Very well. On the morning of the killings, to your knowledge, the
8 school in Uzdol was not operating as a school; is that correct? Rather,
9 it was -- I'll put the question more fully. It was operating as a
10 battalion headquarters for the 3rd Battalion of the HVO; is that correct?
11 A. I know there were soldiers there. I don't know if it was a
13 Q. Okay. But at that time of your life, you were still of school
14 age, weren't you?
15 A. I had completed school some three months before in that year.
16 Q. Okay. Now, your younger siblings who were so sadly killed, they
17 were not attending the school in Cer at that time, in those months, I
18 should perhaps say; is that correct?
19 A. No.
20 Q. School-aged -- many school-aged children had been evacuated from
21 the villages, from the hamlets around Uzdol and moved to Prozor, Rumboc or
22 elsewhere; is that true?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And it is the fact that -- I won't put the fact to you, I'll ask
1 Were you told by anyone the night before the killings happened
2 that there was the danger or the possibility of a Muslim attack, a Bosnian
3 army attack the following morning?
4 A. No.
5 Q. On that last night before the killings, did your mother take any
6 special steps, unusual steps concerning the security of the family?
7 A. As far as I can recall, she didn't.
8 Q. Okay. Do you know whether any ammunition or weapons were found in
9 the proximity of your brother Stjepan's trousers when they were found
10 later on?
11 A. I don't know anything about that.
12 Q. Did anyone tell you anything about that topic as to whether there
13 was any ammunition found near those trousers?
14 A. I can't remember now.
15 Q. Okay. I have a couple more preliminary questions, then I'm going
16 to turn to what you noticed when you fled, then your cross-examination
17 will be finished. I want to indicate to you, Mr. Zelic, that I expect to
18 finish your cross-examination tonight, and I'm intending to attempt to do
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, would it be appropriate to press on
21 without a break. I'm content to do that and I think if we can do that,
22 that would be the best.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, we'll sit until 7.00.
24 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well.
25 Q. The last preliminary questions are these: Did you know Janja
1 Grubesa who lived in Zelenike?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did you know Pavo Grubesa?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where was Pavo Grubesa living at that time, the morning of the
6 killings, 14th of September, 1993?
7 A. He was living in Zelenike, but I don't know where he was on that
9 Q. No. Was he an HVO member himself?
10 A. As far as I know, yes, he was.
11 Q. When -- you don't know whether he was in the village that morning,
12 I understand, but on the occasions when he did sleep in the village, did
13 he sleep in the house of Janja Grubesa or in another house?
14 A. I don't know that.
15 Q. Are you able to say who else was living in the house of Janja
16 Grubesa on the morning of the killings?
17 A. According to what I heard, it was Janja Grubesa and Maja
18 Zelenika. No, not Zelenika, that's a mistake.
19 Q. You meant Grubesa; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Did you know Miroslav Grubesa?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And what relation was Miroslav Grubesa to Janja Grubesa?
24 A. They were brother and sister.
25 Q. How old was Miroslav Grubesa at that time, approximately?
1 A. 15 or 16.
2 Q. Was he a friend of yours, or a neighbour and contemporary of
4 A. He was a relative of mine and we knew each other.
5 Q. Was he a member of the HVO at that time?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know whether he had in his house a weapon or not?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Very well. I now want to move to the time when the soldiers
11 Is it the fact that you were woken by the sound of gunfire or
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did the shots appear to you to be coming from any particular
15 direction when you awoke?
16 A. The shooting could be heard near the house, not from the
18 Q. This courtroom is very quiet, Mr. Zelic, and it's hard to get a
19 sense of the atmosphere at the time. Is it the fact that there was
20 shooting or the sound of gunfire going on very consistently from the time
21 you woke up until quite sometime after your family was killed?
22 A. You could hear the shooting all the time, as far as I can
24 Q. And did that shooting seem to come from various different places
25 at the same time? In other words -- perhaps that's a bad question, I'll
1 ask you another question.
2 Did the shooting all come from the one place or did it seem to
3 come from different places?
4 A. From different places.
5 Q. Okay. And did you also notice some larger explosions, explosions
6 such as would be caused by the falling of shells, mortar bombs or other
7 such artillery?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you notice whether any such shells landed anywhere near to you
10 during the course of your -- of this day?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Very well. Did you notice whether there was any smoke drifting
13 around the village of Zelenike, whether it be from artillery fire or from
14 fires at houses or buildings?
15 A. From houses on fire, yes.
16 Q. Okay. Very well. When you woke up, did you wake up effectively
17 to a scene of panic, with your mother urging you all to get out of the
18 house quickly?
19 A. I don't know who exactly woke me up. And there was shooting
20 nearby so we left the house.
21 Q. Now, did you leave the house by escaping out of a window on one
22 side of the house?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you notice whether there were any people on the other side of
25 the house as you escaped through that window?
1 A. At that moment I didn't, but the shooting was very close.
2 Q. Did you hear any explosions close to the house such as might be
3 caused by a hand-grenade at that time when you were about to escape or
4 indeed when you were escaping?
5 A. I can't remember that now.
6 Q. Do you recall whether you got out the window before your mother or
7 whether she got out before you?
8 A. I went out first.
9 Q. Did you observe with your own eyes whether or not your mother had
10 with her any hand-grenades while she was still inside the house?
11 A. As far as I could see, she didn't.
12 Q. Now, I have to ask you a question about a particular book that's
13 been published which has been tendered in evidence in this Court.
14 Are you aware of a book, the text of which was written by Kazo
15 Zelenika and the -- some form of editing was performed by Gusto Vlajcic
16 which was entitled "Uzdol" and issued in about the year 2000 with the
17 purpose of raising funds I think for the church or school in the village
18 of Uzdol. Do you know that book? I think it was actually to raise funds
19 for a memorial in the village.
20 A. I don't know about that book. I've never seen it.
21 Q. If you've never seen it, I won't trouble you by showing it to you,
22 but I have to ask you to comment on a particular passage.
23 In that book, a claim is made that your mother bravely threw
24 hand-grenades in order to assist the escape of the children and of
1 Now, are you able to offer any comment about that? Did your
2 mother throw hand-grenades or a hand-grenade in order to assist the escape
3 of the children and herself?
4 A. As far as I know, she didn't throw any hand-grenades. And I don't
5 know who wrote that.
6 Q. Okay. Well, I just have to ask you some details to the best of
7 your memory about this escape from the house.
8 Were you the first to go out that window?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was your mother the last to come out that window?
11 A. I can't remember who jumped out after me.
12 Q. You may not recall the precise details or the precise words, but
13 do you recall whether your mother gave you an instruction to run in a
14 particular direction once you got out the window? In other words, did she
15 say, "Run to the Zelenika house," or, "Run to the school," or anything of
16 that nature?
17 A. As far as I can remember, she said, "Run to the school."
18 Q. Is that what you did as soon as you got out the window?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And it was after running towards the school that you came
21 in sight of Ivan Zelenika's house; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. This is jumping ahead a little bit but it will assist us to go
24 through the path that you ran.
25 You jumped out the window -- I just want to put this to you, tell
1 me if I'm right: You jumped out the window, you ran a little way until
2 you could see Ivan Zelenika's house, after stopping there for a short
3 period of time, you then ran in another direction towards that road
4 junction where you ultimately hid. Is that correct? Is that the order
5 that things took?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Now, when you ran from your house, from your window down
8 towards the Zelenika house, were you with your little brother and sister
9 at that time, or did they catch up to you at the place that you stopped
10 near the Zelenika house?
11 A. They were behind me, about 10 metres behind me. They didn't catch
12 up with me.
13 Q. Are you able to say where, in relation to those two, your mother
14 was on the way down from your house to the Zelenika house?
15 A. As far as I can remember, she was behind them, but I can't tell
16 you how far behind.
17 Q. Very well. Now I want to come to what you observed at the
18 Zelenika premises.
19 You indicated here that you saw Ivan Zelenika standing next to a
20 man in uniform with a gun; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. At the time when you looked, you weren't sure whether that person
23 in the uniform was from a friendly or an unfriendly military force; is
24 that correct?
25 A. I didn't know who he was, I just saw that he had a weapon in his
2 Q. Okay. But just by looking at his uniform, you weren't able to
3 tell which side he was on. Is that an accurate statement or not?
4 A. Could you please repeat that?
5 Q. Yes. I'm putting a proposition to you, and I'm asking you to
6 indicate whether you agree or disagree with this proposition.
7 The proposition is: Just by looking at the uniform of this man
8 with the weapon, you couldn't tell which side he was on. Is that right or
10 A. No, I couldn't tell that.
11 Q. But nevertheless -- did you notice any buildings burning in the
12 near vicinity as you made that observation?
13 A. My neighbour Ivan's stable was on fire.
14 Q. Yes. Okay. And can you say for how many seconds you looked at
15 Ivan and had man as they stood six or seven metres outside his house?
16 A. Three, four or five seconds, I'm not sure.
17 Q. All right. And after that, did you turn and run in a different
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you hear any firing coming from the direction of the -- of
21 Ivan Zelenika's house as you ran away?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Now, approximately how long after you started running away from
24 you hear that noise?
25 A. Approximately after 20 seconds or half a minute.
1 Q. May I ask you a question: What was the stance or the position of
2 Ivan Zelenika when you last saw him before you turned to run away?
3 A. He was standing in front of the house.
4 Q. You may or may not recall this, but I will just ask you to try:
5 Do you recall what he was wearing when you last saw him standing outside
6 his house?
7 A. I cannot remember.
8 Q. It's okay. Did you hear -- or sorry, pardon me.
9 Did you see the face of the soldier that was standing -- I should
10 take that back with the soldier, but the person in uniform with a gun that
11 you saw standing near to him? Did you see that man's face? In the five
12 seconds that you were looking?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. I just -- I need to ask you this question for completeness, you
15 didn't see his face. I take it you did not recognise this individual; is
16 that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Very well. Now, after that, you fled towards the junction and my
19 question now is: Were you ahead of or behind your other family members?
20 A. Ahead of them.
21 Q. Very well. And in the time that you -- as you were running along
22 with your family close behind -- were they close -- do you know whether
23 they were close behind you or can you not recall precisely where they
25 A. At the moment at which I could see them, I thought that they were
1 quite close, but how close, I cannot tell you with precision at this
3 Q. And are you able to say when that was that you had that view of
4 them, was it as you ran along or was it as you went to find cover in the
5 place that you've indicated in the photograph?
6 A. As I was running along, I turned backwards once.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, you -- you've indicated that you made a move
8 to -- to hide and I just want to ask you what it was that triggered that
9 decision to hide? Did you see some soldiers or enemy forces or did you
10 hear some such soldiers? What was it that caused you to go where you went
11 to hide, if you can recall?
12 A. I cannot recall, not with precision.
13 Q. That's okay. Some of the questions I ask may seem awfully obvious
14 to you, but we do need your -- we need it to be on the record what you say
15 about it.
16 As you ran from the Zelenika house towards the junction, I take it
17 your state of mind was one of extreme fear as a 15-year-old boy; is that
19 A. It is.
20 Q. And there was the sound of gunfire coming from various different
21 parts of the Uzdol area; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And some of that gunfire sounded as if it was quite close; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You were unable to say -- sorry, I should take that back. You
2 were unable to see the people who were doing that shooting as you ran
3 along; is that correct?
4 A. I couldn't see anyone.
5 Q. And it was apparent to you as you ran along that you were in grave
6 danger of being shot at any second; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when you went to your hiding place, you were still able to
9 hear this shooting going on around the village; is that correct?
10 A. It is.
11 Q. And indeed at all times when you were lying in that hiding spot,
12 you could hear this shooting going on all around the village; is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, you've then given an account of what you can now remember of
16 the conversation you heard on the road near to your hiding spot, and I
17 just want to ask you this -- this question: You've done your best to tell
18 the truth about what you heard in this Court; is that correct?
19 A. Would you be so kind as to repeat the question?
20 Q. Yes. You have -- well, it's really a proposition and I'll ask you
21 to agree or disagree. You have made a genuine effort to tell the truth
22 about what you heard while you lay in your hiding spot; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Very well. All right. Now, I have some very brief questions
25 about what you saw when you came out. I'm not going to take you back to
1 the photographs, but I have to ask you these questions.
2 When you saw the sad sight of your brother and sister and mother
3 killed, the drawing that you drew indicated that the bodies were very near
4 to each other. Now I just want to ask you about that. Were the bodies
5 very near to each other as you've indicated there -- perhaps I'll ask it
6 this way. Were the bodies within a foot or two feet of each other when
7 you saw them?
8 A. I cannot recall exactly, perhaps it was a bit more than that.
9 Q. Okay. But generally speaking, you were satisfied with the
10 accuracy of the positions that you drew on that photograph that has been
11 tendered in evidence here in Court; is that true?
12 A. Yes. As far as I remember, that is more or less so.
13 Q. Very well. Just excuse me please one moment, Mr. Zelic.
14 Mr. Zelic, I'm just considering now if I have any more questions.
15 If you just permit me a moment to consider this matter, I'll -- we'll be
16 finished very shortly.
17 Yes, there are two residual questions and then I've finished.
18 The first one concerns whether you recognised any of the voices
19 that you heard on the road, of the people who were speaking there? Of
20 course you recognised your family, but of the men who were speaking while
21 you were in your hiding spot.
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. As to Janja Grubesa, did you understand Janja Grubesa to be a
24 person who regularly cooked for the soldiers in the HVO in September of
1 A. Could you repeat that, please?
2 Q. To your understanding, in September of 1993, did Janja Grubesa
3 cook for the HVO soldiers?
4 A. As far as I know, she worked in the kitchen. I cannot tell you
5 whether, on that precise day, she was working in the kitchen.
6 Q. Of course not. But by -- when you say "the kitchen," do you mean
7 a kitchen that was based at the school or nearby to the school?
8 A. I don't know whether it was in the school. As far as I can
9 recall, it was.
10 Q. And just to be quite clear, that was a kitchen which provided
11 meals for the on-duty HVO soldiers who needed food while at frontline
12 positions; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did your mother also work, from time to time, at that kitchen?
15 A. No, she didn't.
16 Q. Did you, yourself, ever observe Janja Grubesa with a firearm?
17 A. No.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Mr. Zelic, thank you for answers my questions as
19 you have. That's the end of the cross-examination.
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any redirect?
21 MS. CHANA: No redirect examination, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Judge El Mahdi, please.
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you. [Interpretation] Witness, one point of
2 clarification, please. You stated that your mother told you when you
3 escaped from the house, she told you to go to the school. You said that
4 you were the one who started running in the direction of the school but
5 then you arrived next to the house of Ivan Zelenika. At that point, you
6 started off towards the junction. Can you please explain to us why you
7 decided to go in that direction?
8 A. Because our soldiers were in the school.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but was Ivan's house on the
10 way to the school, was it located on the way to the school?
11 A. Yes, when you go from my house toward the school, then his house
12 it on the way.
13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And did you have to go through
14 the junction?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Then why did you set off in that
17 direction? Why didn't you go in that other direction?
18 A. Because we saw that the stable was on fire. We saw a soldier and
19 we assumed that there was something wrong.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Did you take that decision on
21 your own, the decision to change directions? Because if I understand you
22 correctly, the other members of your family were behind you, about 10
23 metres behind you.
24 A. Yes. I changed the decision because we heard shooting and stables
25 were burning and that would not have been done by Croatian soldiers. We
1 knew it had to be done by the enemy.
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
3 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's question? I see none.
4 At this stage, are there any documents to tender? It seems to me there is
6 Yes, Witness, thank you very much indeed for coming to The Hague
7 to give your testimony.
8 Madam Usher will show you out of the room and we wish you a
9 pleasant journey back home.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Chana.
13 MS. CHANA: No, Your Honours, I think Mr. Sachdeva has got an
14 application to make.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MR. SACHDEVA: May it please Your Honours. I wish to make an
17 application pursuant to Rule 75 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence and
18 Article 22 of the Statute of the Tribunal. Perhaps we can go into private
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 31 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE LIU: Good evening, Witness.
13 Would you please stand up and make the solemn declaration
14 accordance with the paper that Madam Usher is showing to you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak
16 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down.
18 Yes, please.
19 WITNESS: WITNESS H
20 Examined by Mr. Sachdeva:
21 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Good evening, Witness H. The Tribunal has granted the Prosecution
23 protection for Prosecution application for your protection and you are
24 protected by way of facial distortion and pseudonym. Now, I'm going to
25 show you a piece of paper with some details on them, and can you please
1 tell the Court whether they are correct.
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. SACHDEVA: Might that be received in evidence.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's admitted into evidence.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P358 under seal.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
7 MR. SACHDEVA: Your Honour, may we go into private session while I
8 ask questions about his personal background?
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.
10 [Private session]
11 Page 34 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 MR. SACHDEVA:
12 Q. Witness H, in 1993, who was the commander of the Prozor
13 Independent Battalion?
14 A. Enver Buza.
15 Q. Where was the command headquarters of the Prozor Independent
16 Battalion in 1993?
17 A. For a time, it was in the village of Stipe and later on it was
18 transferred to the Dobro Polje.
19 Q. When was it transferred to Dobro Polje?
20 A. I don't remember exactly when it was transferred, but I think it
21 was in that year, 1993.
22 Q. Whereabouts in Dobro Polje was the command centre?
23 A. I don't understand your question.
24 Q. What kind -- sorry, what kind of building was the command centre
25 in Dobro Polje?
1 A. It was a wooden shack.
2 Q. I'm going to show you a photograph, Witness H.
3 MR. SACHDEVA: Your Honour, may I show the witness photograph
5 Q. Witness H, do you see a photograph on your screen?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Is it there now, Witness H?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you see on that photograph the building where the command
10 centre was?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I'm going to ask the usher to provide you with a pen. I'd like
13 you to circle that building, if you may.
14 MR. SACHDEVA: Your Honour I think there's a slight technical
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe you could ask some other questions
17 tomorrow when we come back. You still have a chance to use these
19 MR. SACHDEVA: Very well.
20 Q. Now, Witness H, did you ever visit the battalion command room in
21 Dobro Polje?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Where was your group situated, the military police group?
24 A. Above the command.
25 Q. How far away from the command centre?
1 A. About 50 to 100 metres, thereabouts.
2 Q. Are you familiar with a village called Uzdol?
3 A. Partly.
4 JUDGE LIU: Now we have the picture on our screen. You may try it
6 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Witness H, do you see the photograph on the screen?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you see that there's a red circle around a building there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Which building is that, just for the -- for clarity, please?
12 A. It's the building where the headquarters was located.
13 Q. Of the Prozor Independent Battalion; is that right?
14 A. The command of the battalion, yes, the Independent Prozor
16 Q. Can I ask you to write the letter C above the circle, please.
17 A. [Marks]
18 MR. SACHDEVA: Your Honour, I tender that for admission.
19 MR. METTRAUX: No objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE LIU: That is admitted into evidence.
21 THE REGISTRAR: The original Prosecution Exhibit P359 and the one
22 that's marked now Prosecution Exhibit P360.
23 MR. SACHDEVA: Is it a good time to ...
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I believe so, and we will resume tomorrow
2 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I just -- I had understood
3 that we were going to start at 10.30 tomorrow morning. Is that not going
4 to happen -- Friday, pardon me.
5 JUDGE LIU: On Friday, yes, yes.
6 MR. MORRISSEY: I apologise.
7 JUDGE LIU: Tomorrow afternoon.
8 Witness, I believe that you have to stay in The Hague for another
9 night, and you have to understand that you are under oath now. So please
10 do not talk to anybody and do not let anybody talk to you about your
12 Do you understand that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE LIU: And when we adjourn, Madam Usher will pull down the
15 blinds and she will show you out of this courtroom. And you just stay
16 where you are.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE LIU: The hearing for today is adjourned.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of
21 April, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.