1 Thursday, 22 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed the ...
6 Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Good afternoon to
11 I was informed that the Prosecution would like to address the
13 Mr. Dutertre, is it you? Then please proceed.
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour, thank you.
15 I wanted to provide some explanations as regards the 68 document; i.e.,
16 the six documents that were provided yesterday by the Defence team of
17 Mr. Haradinaj. Some research has been carried out - they're actually
18 still underway - in order to better understand the situation. However, I
19 can already indicate that document number 1, which of course is a list of
20 policemen, Serb policemen, with an ID number K0111310 up to 1322 --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, I think that we agreed that any
22 questioning on this material, we would be provisionally in private
23 session. Of course, if you now start explaining what this material is
24 all about, then we would miss the effect of private session later on.
25 So, therefore, I suggest to you that you request for private session.
1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Let's move into
2 private session.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar.
4 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. D8, D9, D10, and D11 have been marked for
20 identification. These are signature by Witness 19, ICTY witness
21 statement of Witness 19, 18th of July and 20th of October, 2004. D10,
22 ICTY witness statement of Witness 19, 24th and 26th of July, 2006; D11,
23 ICTY witness statement of Witness 19, on the 9th of October, 2005.
24 Are you going to tender these documents in evidence or not?
25 Because we'd like to know whether --
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: It is not my intention to tender the witness
2 statements into evidence. It is my intention to tender what I believe is
3 D8, which is the signature page of the witness, into evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's the page with three signatures.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is correct, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then D8, any objection against admission into
7 evidence, Mr. Di Fazio? Mr. Dutertre?
8 MR. DI FAZIO: No, there's certainly no objection to that, the
9 signature being put --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then D8 will be admitted.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: But the other documents, if Your Honours please,
12 the statements may cause some problems further down the line. If Your
13 Honours will want to at some point evaluate what the witness said and
14 contrast it with what is in his statements at some point, at some later
15 point, how will you do that if it's not in evidence? That's the point I
16 raise, and it's a matter for the Trial Chamber. In certain
17 jurisdictions, my application would be to you to say, Well, he's
18 cross-examined on them; they have to go in. But I just raise that issue.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, to the extent the witness is
20 cross-examined on them, the relevant portion has been put to him and has
21 been read to him, so to that extent, on the specific issues on which he
22 was cross-examined, we have it; and what he has seen and what signatures
23 we have seen becomes clear from D8. So, therefore, at this moment --
24 and, of course, it might not be fair to start seeking consistency or
25 inconsistency apart from where the witness has testified in court.
1 Therefore, it would be a kind of an exercise where the parties would not
2 be aware what we would be focusing on.
3 So for the time being, the Chamber ...
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: For the time being, Mr. Di Fazio and Mr. Guy-Smith,
6 the Chamber does not insist on having the statements themselves, that's
7 D9, D10, and D11, into evidence. If, however, there would ever be a
8 moment where the Chamber considers it necessary to call this evidence in
9 whatever circumstances, with or without further testimony of the witness,
10 then, of course, the parties will be informed about it. But the Chamber
11 has the power to order certain material to be adduced into evidence.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour will recall there was one passage in
13 the statement of Witness 19 that I invited him to read to himself.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. EMMERSON: And then asked him some questions about it, and I
16 think Your Honour asked me at that point did I want to make the statement
17 an exhibit, and I said no. My understanding was that it having been
18 marked for identification, there would be a hyperlink on the transcript
19 which enables that passage to be checked, if needs be.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. EMMERSON: That is my understanding.
22 JUDGE ORIE: For the time being, we leave it as it is. Again, as
23 I said before, if the Chamber at any stage considers it necessary to have
24 a closer look at it and to consider it also in the preparation of the
25 determinations the Chamber will have to make, we'll announce that,
1 parties will have an opportunity to comment on it, and then a decision
2 will be taken. But for the time being, they're just marked for
4 Then is there any other matter? If not, I'd like to give you an
5 opportunity to -- Mr. Emmerson, to continue your cross-examination, and I
6 invite Madam Usher to escort the witness into the courtroom.
7 I'm unequally treating the Prosecution because P22 still is on my
8 list. That's the terrorist report regarding terrorist attack on the 2nd
9 of March. Is that tendered?
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection? Then P22 is admitted into evidence.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 WITNESS: MILOICA VLAHOVIC [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Vlahovic. May I remind you that
16 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the
17 beginning of your testimony. Mr. Emmerson will now continue his
19 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson: [Continued]
21 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, I was asking you yesterday afternoon some questions
22 about conversations you had with people about your parents between April
23 and the end of August, beginning of September, and I told you I was going
24 to come back later to conversations that you'd had, or say you'd had,
25 with people in September.
1 There is one conversation that is recorded in your witness
2 statement, or one piece of information, I should say, that is recorded in
3 your witness statement that you said you had received about your parents
4 which was not mentioned in your evidence-in-chief.
5 MR. EMMERSON: And for the record, it's page 5, first paragraph,
6 of Mr. Vlahovic's April 2002 witness statement. I don't ask for it to be
7 brought up.
8 Q. I'm going to read you the paragraph. You are recorded as having
9 said: "On or around the 10th of May, I heard a false rumour from
10 Nuo Alakaj," A-l-a-k-a-j, "a Catholic from Marnule" M-a-r-n-u-l-e,
11 "Gjakova municipality, to the effect that my parents had been released.
12 Nuo said that he had heard that my parents had been released at Prilep.
13 Nuo told me he had heard this from Zef," Z-e-f, "Hiseni," H-i-s-e-n-i,
14 "from Donji Ratis"?
15 Now, first of all, is that right? Did you hear a false rumour
16 from Nuo Alakaj that your parents had been released at Prilep?
17 A. Yes. That's what Nuo told me and he had heard this from Zef,
18 from Donji Ratis.
19 Q. So did Nuo tell you that himself?
20 A. No, he didn't.
21 Q. Did you have a conversation with Nuo or not?
22 A. My brother talked to him.
23 Q. That was what I wanted to ask you. So your brother talked to Nuo
24 and your brother Rade told you what Nuo had said; is that right?
25 A. More or less so.
1 Q. And what Rade told you was that Nuo had told him that your
2 parents had been released alive at Prilep; is that right?
3 A. That's right. That's what he said, more or less.
4 Q. I just want to put to you a passage of Rade's witness statement,
5 please, and ask you to comment on that?
6 MR. EMMERSON: And this is paragraph 39 and 40 of Mr. Rade
7 Vlahovic's witness statement of the 30th of June, 2004.
8 Q. In that statement, your brother is recorded as having said:
9 "In May 1998 I heard from Catholic Albanian friends from
10 Djakovica that they had learned from relatives in Gornji Ratis that my
11 parents had been taken by Ramush Haradinaj's men to the KLA HQ in
12 Glodjane. The names of these Catholic Albanian friends are Nuo Alakaj
13 and Cuo Alakaj. They are still living in the village of Marnule near
15 That is the passage I want to put to you. So in Rade Vlahovic's
16 statement, he was saying that Nuo Alakaj had told him that your parents
17 had been taken by Ramush Haradinaj's men to Gllogjan, but you're telling
18 us, are you, that what he told you Nuo Alakaj had said was that your
19 parents had been released alive in Prilep.
20 A. Apparently that's what Zef from Donji Ratis had told him.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please move closer to the
22 microphone and speak up, if possible.
23 A. So I suppose that was true. Had it not been true, I don't think
24 that would come up.
25 MR. EMMERSON:
1 Q. I'm not quite sure what that answer means, Mr. Vlahovic, but let
2 me just be clear with you. You've told us just a moment ago that what
3 Rade told you Nuo Alakaj had told him was that your parents had been
4 released alive at Prilep. That's what he told you Nuo Alakaj had told
5 him; is that right?
6 A. That's what he told me that he had heard.
7 Q. Thank you. And he'd heard it from Nuo Alakaj?
8 A. Most probably.
9 Q. Now, Rade joined the police, the MUP, in 1990, didn't he?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And he was a serving police officer throughout the 1990s and
12 throughout 1998 and 1997, wasn't he?
13 A. Yes, he was.
14 Q. And throughout 1999 as well?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know what the initials PJP stand for, Mr. Vlahovic, in the
17 police context?
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. My pronunciation will probably be at fault, but Posebne,
20 P-o-s-e-b-n-e, Jedinice, J-e-d-i-n-i-c-e, Policije, P-o-l-i-c-i-j-e.
21 Have you heard of that branch of the MUP?
22 A. Yes, I have.
23 Q. That's the PJP, Mr. Vlahovic, isn't it?
24 A. Most probably.
25 Q. They're paramilitary police, aren't they?
1 A. I don't know that. How am I supposed to know? That's beyond my
2 area of expertise.
3 Q. Your brother Rade was a member of the PJP, was he not,
4 Mr. Vlahovic?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. You don't know?
7 A. I don't.
8 Q. I see. We have official records, Mr. Vlahovic, that show that in
9 March 1999, Rade was a member of the paramilitary police? And are you
10 telling us you didn't know that?
11 A. How am I supposed to know that? I wasn't working in the police.
12 I didn't know who worked where, and I never asked him.
13 Q. Did you see him in uniform in March 1999?
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: What year?
15 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, March 1999 was the question, in fact.
16 Q. Did you ever see him in uniform?
17 A. He had the same uniform like everybody else. I didn't see any
18 special uniform on him.
19 Q. And you never saw him carrying an AK-47 automatic rifle, did you?
20 A. Everybody had the same uniform at the time, and I may have seen
21 someone carrying an automatic rifle.
22 Q. Do you know the name Mundza, a paramilitary group within the PJP?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You've never heard of the Mundza, Mr. Vlahovic?
25 A. Never. This is the first time I hear of it.
1 Q. Very well. Rade Markovic and Zvonko Markovic, you told us that
2 they were your cousins in the sense that your father and their mother
3 were brother and sister; is that right?
4 A. No. My mother and their father were brother and sister.
5 Q. Very well. And you told us in your evidence yesterday that you
6 saw them frequently at this time; is that right?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. Both of them were members of the MUP reserve, weren't they?
9 A. Yes, they were, I think.
10 Q. Did you ever see them in uniforms?
11 A. I used to see many people in uniforms. All those who were in the
12 police were wearing uniforms.
13 Q. I'm asking you about your cousins, Mr. Vlahovic. Did you ever
14 see them in uniforms?
15 A. What year are you referring to?
16 Q. Any time in 1998 or 1999. Did you see them in uniforms?
17 A. It's possible. I'm not sure whether it was 1998 or 1999.
18 Q. Rade Markovic used to carry an AK-47 when he was in uniform. Did
19 you ever see him with that?
20 A. Can you please clarify for me what an AK-47 is?
21 Q. You don't know what an AK-47 is, Mr. Vlahovic? Is that your
23 A. Yes, yes, yes. Is that an automatic rifle? I've never heard
24 that designation, "AK-47?"
25 Q. Well, yes, it is an automatic rifle. Did you ever see your
1 cousin Rade with an automatic rifle?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. What about the other Markovic family? Branislav and
4 Slavisa, were either of them at any time, any time at all, in the MUP
6 A. I don't think so. I don't know, but I don't think so.
7 Q. Now, let me ask you about your immediate family. You've told us
8 you yourself before never --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, just for me not to be confused, when
10 you're talking about Branislav and Slavisa, let me just see --
11 MR. EMMERSON: Just to remind Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. EMMERSON: There were two Markovic families in this witness's
14 evidence. One was escorted out of Dashinoc by Djevdet Sadikaj. They are
15 relatives, but distant relatives, of the other branch of the Markovic
16 family. The two I put the witness -- put to the witness a moment ago,
17 Rade Markovic and Zvonko Markovic, are the immediate --
18 JUDGE ORIE: The full cousins. I'm just -- Yes. Branislav and
19 Slavisa, is that where the father had died --
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- and where Milojka was the mother?
22 MR. EMMERSON: Correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. I've got the right people in mind.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. EMMERSON:
1 Q. Now, you've told us that you were never in the MUP at any time;
2 is that right?
3 A. [No interpretation].
4 Q. You yourself, you were never in the MUP at any time?
5 A. No, I wasn't.
6 Q. May I ask you this - and do be careful with your answers, if you
7 will - did you ever wear a uniform during 1998 or 1999, Mr. Vlahovic?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. Did you ever carry a gun?
10 A. I had a hunting carbine with a licence, and I had a licensed
11 pistol as well.
12 Q. What was the pistol for?
13 A. I had it. I had a licence for it.
14 Q. What did you use it for?
15 A. I didn't carry it and I didn't use it. You asked me if I had
17 Q. Why did you have one, Mr. Vlahovic? It wasn't for hunting, was
18 it? You don't hunt with a pistol.
19 A. I kept it at home.
20 Q. What about your brother -- I'm sorry, were you going to say
22 A. What I wanted to say, was that something bad, that I had a
24 Q. It's not for me to comment, Mr. Vlahovic. What about your
25 brother Novak? Was he ever in the MUP at all?
1 A. Yes, he was.
2 Q. And when was he in the MUP?
3 A. He was a member of the reserve during the war.
4 Q. Was he in the reserve during 1998?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. Did you see him in uniform and carrying a gun?
7 A. Most probably I did.
8 Q. An automatic weapon?
9 A. Yes, most probably.
10 Q. What about your brother Goran?
11 A. What about my brother Goran? I didn't hear your question.
12 Q. Same question I'm asking you. I'm going to ask you about a
13 number of people, so this question I'm asking you about each of them is,
14 were they, to your knowledge, ever in the MUP or the MUP reserve; did
15 they, to your knowledge, ever wear a uniform; and did they, to your
16 knowledge, ever carry a weapon; and if so, what weapon? Those are the
17 questions I'm asking you.
18 Now, what about Goran?
19 A. I believe that he was in the reserve, too.
20 Q. And did you see him in uniform and with a weapon?
21 A. Most probably I did. I wasn't paying attention.
22 Q. So do I have it right that of the four brothers, you're the only
23 one who wasn't in the police?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Tell me about the Stojanovic brothers. Any of them in the
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Which ones?
4 A. In -- I don't know. I'm not sure.
5 Q. Let's go through them. Predrag, was he in the police?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, interpreter's correct: The witness
7 said no instead of yes.
8 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not sure what that was a "no" to, so perhaps
9 we can just put the question again.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Were any of them were in the police?
11 MR. EMMERSON:
12 Q. Are you saying none of them were in the police?
13 A. I said I don't know.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, let's be clear. Let's go through them one at a
15 time. Predrag, you knew him well, did you not?
16 A. I knew him but not well. He was my senior.
17 Q. Was he in the police?
18 A. I said I don't know.
19 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that he was in the PJP serving
20 alongside your brother Rade, Mr. Vlahovic. You did know that he was in
21 the PJP, didn't you?
22 A. I didn't know. How could I have known? Was I supposed to know?
23 Q. What about Vesko? Do be careful with your answers, Mr. Vlahovic.
24 What about Vesko? Was he in the police?
25 A. I don't know. I don't think he was. I didn't have all the
1 information who was in the police or not. I wasn't interested.
2 Q. You told us yesterday that as a school teacher in the area, you
3 knew all these families well. You were able to give us all of their
4 family relationships, Mr. Vlahovic. Let's be frank about this. Did you
5 or did you not know whether Dragoslav Stojanovic was in the police?
6 A. I didn't know, and I still don't know.
7 Q. What about Stanisa Radosevic? He's someone you told us you knew
8 well. Stanisa Radosevic, was he in the police at this time during 1998
9 and 1999?
10 A. I believe that he started working in late 1999 or in the year
11 2000, but I'm not sure. I don't know.
12 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, in March 1999, Stanisa Radosevic was working with
13 your brother in the PJP, wasn't he, your brother Rade, in the
15 A. I don't know. I don't know who he was working with. I just know
16 that he joined later, rather late, but I don't know who he was working
18 Q. All right. You're giving firm evidence about this, Mr. Vlahovic.
19 Your evidence is that he joined late. When you say "late," let's be
20 clear. When do you say -- since you know him obviously well enough to
21 know when he joined, you tell us when he joined the police?
22 A. I said that he joined at a later stage. That's what I said. But
23 who he was working with and what he was doing, I don't know, and I don't
24 know when things happened exactly. I wasn't interested in memorising
25 dates and years, and I wasn't privy to how the police operated and who
1 was a member. So I cannot answer any of these questions.
2 Q. You told us he started working late 1999 or in the year 2000.
3 Now, is it your evidence that Stanisa Radosevic was not in the police
4 during the war?
5 A. He may have been a member before that. I don't know. I don't
6 know when he started and when he was a member.
7 Q. Why, if you don't know, did you tell us just a moment ago that he
8 started working in late 1999 or the year 2000? Why did you say that?
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I object to that. That was immediately followed,
10 if you read the transcript --
11 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: -- if you read the line, that he said immediately
13 following after 2000, "I don't know." It's in the very line. "I believe
14 that he started working in late 1999 --
15 JUDGE ORIE: He said "I believe he started working in late 1999
16 or in the year 2000, but I'm not sure, I don't know."
17 MR. DI FAZIO: "I don't know."
18 MR. EMMERSON: Just a couple lines further down: "I don't know.
19 I don't know who he was working with. I just know that he joined later,
20 rather late ..."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you then perhaps limit your question to
22 late --
23 MR. EMMERSON: I can move on. I can move on.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Please proceed.
25 MR. EMMERSON:
1 Q. What about Radoje Radosevic, his brother?
2 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
3 Q. Konstantin Stijovic's sons, Novak and Momo. What about them?
4 A. I don't know. I wasn't in Decani in 1999. How can I know who
5 was working and where? I know that before that they weren't working, but
6 whether they were working during the war or not, how can I know? I
7 wasn't there.
8 Q. Simple question: Did you ever see either of them in uniform?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. Just to be clear, are you saying you don't know one way or the
12 A. I don't remember seeing them.
13 Q. I wonder if you could just be shown a list, please, single sheet
14 of paper, on the ELMO?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- we're still in open session.
16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you want, that's fine.
18 MR. EMMERSON: I'm happy -- I think the matter has been dealt
19 with, with this witness. I'm not going to traverse it necessarily in the
20 same detail with the next witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Is there any -- is it just in order to have
22 the names written down or is there -- do you want to tender that
24 MR. EMMERSON: I will tender the document, if I may.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then it needs a number.
1 Madam Registrar, that would be ...
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number D14,
3 marked for identification.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 MR. EMMERSON:
6 Q. Now, Mr. Vlahovic, this is a list of names who are shown in the
7 records of the PJP as having been in receipt of salaries from the PJP in
8 March 1999, and I just want to go through the list.
9 The first one, obviously, is your brother; is that right?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put the question clearly,
11 Mr. Emmerson? It's unclear whether it's right that this is his brother
12 or whether it's right that he was in the police force.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry.
14 Q. You told us already your brother was in the police force. That
15 is your brother's name, is it not?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Stanisa Radosevic, did you know more than one Stanisa Radosevic?
18 A. I don't know. I knew just one.
19 Q. Yes. Zeljko Radosevic. Now, you told us yesterday that you
20 don't know that man; is that correct?
21 A. I don't know him.
22 Q. What about Slobodan Markovic? Is that a name you know? No?
23 A. No, I don't know him.
24 Q. Momcilo Markovic. You don't know that man?
25 A. No. No.
1 Q. Danilo Stijovic, you told us yesterday, was a cousin of the
2 Momo Stijovic who had been injured in Gllogjan; is that right?
3 A. I said that Momo was wounded, but Danilo, I didn't know him well.
4 Q. No. You told us yesterday that he was the cousin, Danilo was the
5 cousin, of the Momo Stijovic who was injured in Gllogjan?
6 A. Yes. Yes, yes. Momo was the one who was wounded.
7 Q. Yes. And Danilo was his cousin; yes?
8 A. They were related. I'm not sure how distantly. I didn't know
9 him well.
10 Q. But you did know them both, didn't you?
11 A. I did. You know how it was, just superficially.
12 Q. And Predrag Stojanovic, that's the son of Ljubica, isn't it?
13 A. Most probably. Ljubica, yes.
14 Q. Veselin Stojanovic. Is that Vesko?
15 A. I think not, but I don't know. Vesko is probably his real name
16 but I'm not sure. I don't believe this would be him. I think not but I
17 can't say.
18 Q. Very well. But you know who Ljubisa Radunovic is, don't you?
19 A. That I do.
20 Q. Pardon?
21 A. That I do. Yes, yes, I do.
22 Q. He's the son of Milos and Milka Radunovic, isn't he?
23 A. Milica Radunovic, that's right.
24 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, were you aware that your brother Rade was involved
25 in the investigation into the late Radonjic Canal find, in his capacity
1 as a police officer?
2 A. I don't know about that. How could he have been involved in that
3 investigation? I don't know about that at all. I don't think he could
4 possibly have been involved in an investigation like that.
5 Q. Well, he was involved in that investigation, Mr. Vlahovic. Did
6 he not tell you that?
7 A. No, he didn't. He didn't tell me and I'm not clear how he
8 possibly could have been involved.
9 Q. Did he not tell you that he interviewed a number of Albanians in
10 custody about the canal? Did he not tell you that?
11 A. I never asked him to begin with. We didn't discuss that, not
13 Q. Not even after it was discovered that one of your parent's bodies
14 had been found there? He never told you, I've interviewed people about
15 this canal?
16 A. No. I never asked him after about the canal.
17 Q. You wouldn't ask him if you didn't know, would you? The question
18 I'm asking you is: Is it right that he never volunteered that
19 information to you, Mr. Vlahovic?
20 A. He never said and I never asked. That's what I said.
21 Q. What about your cousin Zvonko Markovic? Is he someone that
22 you've told us you saw regularly at this time. Did you know that he took
23 part in the recovery operation at the canal? Sorry, let me ask the
24 question again. You told us yesterday you saw your cousin Zvonko
25 Markovic frequently at this time. Did he tell you that he was involved
1 in the recovery operation at the Lake Radonjic Canal?
2 A. He didn't say. I went there myself and I saw the bodies. I
3 don't know who was involved. I never asked if anybody was involved or
4 not, because I saw the bodies myself.
5 Q. Did you see your cousin there, Zvonko, in uniform?
6 A. When I was there I didn't see that.
7 Q. I see. And he never told you that he was involved in that part
8 of the operation?
9 A. I never asked; he never said.
10 Q. Similarly about Dashinoc, did he tell you that he had been to
11 Dashinoc, to the site where it is said that the bodies of Milos Radunovic
12 and Slobodan Radosevic were found? Did he tell you that he was involved
13 in that?
14 A. I didn't ask. I went there myself as well. Why would I have
15 asked him? I'd been there myself. I'd been to both places. That's why
16 I never bothered to ask him about either place.
17 Q. I see. Well, let's just look at the time that you went there,
18 then, Mr. Vlahovic. You've told us about two conversations that you had
19 in September after the Serbs took control of the area around Ratishe in
20 Dashinoc, one with someone called Shaban Sadikaj and the other with
21 someone called Arifaj Madjun. I want to ask you about both of those?
22 First of all, Shaban Sadikaj. You told us in your evidence that
23 you had a conversation with him in September. You said it was at the
24 beginning of September. Can you be any more specific about the date?
25 A. I don't remember the exact date. Probably early September but
1 I'm not positive.
2 Q. See if can date it a little bit more accurately. By the time you
3 had the conversation with Shaban Sadikaj, had you already learned about
4 the discovery of what was then thought to be your father's body in the
5 Lake Radonjic Canal? Did you already know about that when you spoke to
6 Shaban Sadikaj?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You went to Hotel Pastrik at one point to identify some clothing,
9 didn't you?
10 A. That's right. We did go but nothing was known at that time, and
11 I don't remember the date we went. It wasn't until later that they
12 eventually told us.
13 Q. We have records of the dates that you went, Mr. Vlahovic, so
14 don't worry about that. You were there when clothing was identified that
15 was thought to belong to your father, weren't you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was the conversation with Shaban Sadikaj before or after that?
18 A. Before.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, you spoke to Shaban Sadikaj at his home, did
21 A. On the road.
22 Q. Was it on the road near his home?
23 A. Not too far.
24 Q. He lived in Dashinoc. Were you in Dashinoc when you had this
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What were you doing in Dashinoc?
3 A. I wanted to go and see him. I wanted to go and see Djevdet. He
4 had told Milojka that he should throw both his parents out, as well as
6 Q. So you went there specifically to speak to Shaban, did you?
7 A. Yes. Not Shaban, Djevdet.
8 Q. I see. You went to speak to Djevdet; yes?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At that time did you think Djevdet had been a KLA leader in
12 A. That's what I thought.
13 Q. Did you go there once or more than once, to Dashinoc, in
15 A. Once, just that once, in Ratis and in Dashinoc. I didn't go
16 twice. I didn't go many times. I just went that once.
17 Q. And on that same occasion, you went both to Ratishe and to
18 Dashinoc; is that right?
19 A. Yes. I first went to that house. It's not too far from our
20 house, from our house to Dasinovac.
21 Q. And so does it follow that the conversation that you had with
22 Arifaj Madjun was on the same day as the conversation that you had with
23 Shaban Sadikaj?
24 A. I spoke with Madjun in Ratis.
25 Q. Was it on the same day that you spoke to Shaban Sadikaj?
1 A. No, that's a different village, and this is yet a different one.
2 It could not have been on the same day. I had spoken to Madjun earlier
4 Q. So you spoke to Madjun first before you spoke to Shaban; is that
6 A. I think that's how it was.
7 Q. I see. Mr. Vlahovic, were you aware when you went to Dashinoc
8 that there were international monitors operating in the area,
9 international people looking at what had taken place there? Did you know
11 A. I didn't.
12 Q. I see.
13 A. I did know that there were monitors all over the place. I didn't
14 know about Dasinovac specifically.
15 Q. Stanisa Radosevic has given evidence to this Tribunal that when
16 he went to Dashinoc on about the 9th or 10th of September, the majority
17 of the houses had been set fire to and some were still on fire. Did you
18 see houses that had been damaged by fire when you went to Dashinoc and
19 spoke to Shaban Sadikaj?
20 A. Not when I was there.
21 Q. So when you were there, there was no evidence of damage by fire
22 to the houses; is that right?
23 A. None.
24 Q. I see. I want to go through what you say Shaban Sadikaj told
25 you. As far as your parents were concerned, you told us yesterday that
1 Shaban Sadikaj told you that your parents had stayed in their own house
2 for 10 to 15 days after the date on which you had last seen them, the
3 20th of April; you told us that Miloica Radunovic, the wife of
4 Milos Radunovic, had stayed with them, according to Shaban Sadikaj; and
5 you told us that he told you that a neighbour called Syle Kuci could have
6 helped them get out but didn't; and you told us that he didn't tell you
7 anything else about your parents other than that; is that right?
8 A. He also said about Milica that she had been over to ask about
9 Milos, to talk to his cousin, but she didn't know that they had killed
11 Q. Yes. I'm going to come to that in a moment. Now, you told us
12 yesterday afternoon that in addition to what he told you about your
13 parents, Shaban Sadikaj had also told you about something that had
14 happened to Slobodan Radosevic and Milos Radunovic. You said that he
15 told you that a meeting had been held in the house of Djevdet Sadikaj,
16 the son of Shaban; you said that Shaban told you that he had seen the
17 people at the meeting arresting Milos Radunovic when he was on his way to
18 Slobodan Radosevic's house; and you said that he told you that he tried
19 to intervene to prevent that, but that they shouted at him and chased him
20 back to his home; and all of that, you said, he told you had happened
21 within a few days of the date that you last saw your father. Is that
23 A. That's what he told me at the time.
24 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, when you made your statement to the Prosecution
25 investigator in April 2002, you didn't mention anything at all about what
1 you now say Shaban Sadikaj told you about the alleged abduction of
2 Milos Radunovic, did you?
3 A. I did.
4 Q. Well, we have your statement available, and, if needs be, we can
5 put it up on the screen, but I'll just read to you -- I'll just read to
6 you the passage in which you described the conversation with
7 Shaban Sadikaj, and this is the only reference to it.
8 "After the Yugoslav army and the MUP had taken control of the
9 area around my village in September 1998, I travelled to Dasinovac. I
10 spoke with Shaban Sadikaj whose son Djevdet was probably the top KLA
11 commander in Dasinovac. According to Shaban, his son and Rustem Sadrijaj
12 or Kamisi, I'm not sure of the family name, and the third man were the
13 main KLA men in Dasinovac, and they had perpetrated many horrible crimes.
14 Shaban also related to me that my parents had stayed in their house for
15 10 to 15 days after the road had been blocked and that Milica Radunovic
16 had stayed with them. During this time she did not know what had
17 happened to her husband. Shaban told me that my parents' neighbour Syle
18 Kuci could have assisted to escape but he chose not to."
19 That is all that is recorded in your statement about that
20 conversation. There's no reference at all to the alleged abduction of
21 Milos Radunovic.
22 Now, Mr. Vlahovic, why did you not mention then what you're
23 telling the Tribunal now about that conversation?
24 A. I think I did say then. I must have because that's what had
25 happened. I don't think I would have just skipped it.
1 Q. Well, Mr. Vlahovic, at the end of that interview in April 2002,
2 this statement was read over to you, wasn't it, in a language that you
3 understood by an interpreter?
4 A. I don't know, but I thought that I'd stated that for the record.
5 But that's what had happened and there's nothing that can change that.
6 Q. Well, it's perfectly clear to all of us who have your statement
7 in front of us, Mr. Vlahovic, that there is nothing recorded in it to
8 that effect.
9 A. Fine. There is nothing. But that's what happened, so there you
10 have it.
11 Q. Stanisa Radosevic has told us about a conversation he had with an
12 Albanian man in Dashinoc at about this time. Was he present when you
13 spoke to Shaban Sadikaj?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Was anybody that you knew, any Serbs that you knew, in Dashinoc
16 at the time that you went there?
17 A. No, none.
18 Q. Can I ask you this, Mr. Vlahovic: Did you see a Mercedes car
19 outside Mr. Sadikaj's house?
20 A. I did see a smashed-up Mercedes, white, 123, one of ours, and a
21 black cow, too, one of ours again.
22 Q. Whose Mercedes was it you say you saw outside the Sadikaj house?
23 A. It was ours.
24 Q. Belonged to you?
25 A. Yes, to us, our family. And the cow, too, the black one.
1 Q. Were you angry to see your car parked outside the Sadikaj's
2 house? Did you think they'd stolen it?
3 A. No. I asked Shaban, and he said the car belonged to Djevdet and
5 Q. You knew that wasn't true, Mr. Vlahovic. It was your car, wasn't
7 A. It was our car but no longer. Anyone could have had it. They
8 had killed my parents. What could have stopped them from taking my car,
9 given the circumstances?
10 Q. I repeat my question: Did it make you angry to see that they had
11 stolen your car, as you saw it?
12 A. Perhaps I was angry.
13 Q. Perhaps you were, Mr. Vlahovic, because I suggest that you
14 weren't there alone, you were there with a number of others, and that
15 together you beat Shaban Sadikaj. That's the truth about this encounter,
16 isn't it, Mr. Vlahovic?
17 A. No, no. That is not the truth. That is not the truth at all.
18 None of it is true.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Can we please see Defence document identification
20 1D11-0048 [Realtime transcript read in error "1D11-0488"] please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 It needs a number, I take it.
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, please. Marked for identification, and I
24 will be asking for it to be admitted.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number D15,
1 marked for identification.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MR. EMMERSON: If we can just look at the first page, first of
4 all. 0048; yes?
5 Q. Now, this, Mr. Vlahovic, I'm not expecting you to understand it
6 because it's in English only, but I shall read you the passage I want to
7 take your attention to. But so you understand what you're looking at,
8 this is an investigator's report from a Prosecution investigator who went
9 to speak to Shaban Sadikaj about your meeting with him, okay? You
10 understand what it is we're looking at?
11 MR. EMMERSON: Can we turn to pages 5 and 6; 5, first of all,
12 briefly. That's 4, I think. That's 5. Thank you.
13 Q. At the bottom of the page, in the statement of Miloica Vlahovic,
14 there is a paragraph where he talks about a man called Shaban Sadikaj
15 from Dasinovac. This paragraph mentions Djevdet Sadikaj as the main KLA
16 commander in Dasinovac. It also states that: "Miloica Vlahovic spoke to
17 Shaban Sadikaj who told him that Miloica's parents had stayed in his
18 house for 10 to 15 days and that Milica Radunovic was with them."
19 Now, I just want to be clear. There's obviously been a
20 misunderstanding by the investigator because your witness statement said
21 that Shaban Sadikaj had told you that your parents had stayed in their
22 house for 10 or 15 days, and it's obvious that the investigator had
23 thought that what you were saying was that Shaban Sadikaj had said that
24 your parents had stayed at the Sadikaj's house for 10 or 15 days, but you
25 never told anybody that, did you?
1 A. Never.
2 Q. So now if we look over to page 6, we'll just go through it and
3 I'll read it to you and I hope at a translatable speed?
4 "OL," that's the investigator, "visited Dashinoc on the 19th of
5 November, 2005. Dashinoc is a very small and remote village. Shaban
6 Sadikaj's house was found and his daughter, Minire Sadikaj opened the
7 door. One of the sons came to the door and did not seem friendly. The
8 investigator asked him whether Shaban Sadikaj was at home and he said
9 that he was. He wanted to know what it was about and OL asked to come
10 inside to explain. They turned out to be another brother present. Also
11 their paralysed mother and some other children were in the room.
12 "The sons did most of the talking. The investigator explained
13 that the interest was to speak about some things that happened during the
14 war. The brothers had a very angry attitude and said that the wrong
15 persons are being indicted for war crimes. One of them mentioned Rade
16 Vlahovic as someone who had committed a lot of crimes."
17 That would be a reference to your brother, would it, Mr.
19 A. Yes. Whether it's true or not is a different kettle of fish
21 Q. "The investigator didn't mention what his actual interest was
22 about, but asked if it was possible to speak to the father. They said he
23 always gets very upset when he talks about the war because of what the
24 Serbs did to him, but it was okay to try and talk to him. He came to the
25 room after a while. Shaban Sadikaj is 74 and is not in a state of mental
1 health to be interviewed properly. He didn't listen to any questions and
2 he kept talking about when the Serbs came and took him at gunpoint. They
3 said that they were going to kill him and they beat him up badly and he
4 lost his conscious. When he woke up, some Albanians, who had passed by,
5 had managed to save him from being killed.
6 "Shaban Sadikaj kept going in and out of the room and telling the
7 same story.
8 "The brothers said that the incident with Shaban Sadikaj happened
9 in September 1998. Everyone else had already left the village, but the
10 father stayed behind.
11 "The investigator asked the brothers about the KLA in Dashinoc.
12 They said that they had their own village defence and people defended
13 their own compounds. They felt like part of the KLA, but they were not
14 under the command of Ramush or Tahir."
15 The investigator notes that he had visited the village earlier
16 and met some of the other Sadikajs who had said the same basic thing,
17 leaving themselves outside any actual command.
18 It goes on:
19 "Dashinoc is a small village and according to the brothers, all
20 of the 15 houses these days are related and called Sadikaj. Serbs used
21 to live in the village and everyone got on well until the war. When
22 asked about the Vlahovic family, they said that they used to be good
23 friends, but it changed all of a sudden. They mentioned that even during
24 the beginning of the war, they used to help anyone who was in need, no
25 matter what ethnicity.
1 "The brothers would not give a clear answer as to who was the
2 main commander of the army in the village. They said everyone took care
3 of their own bit. Also, they claim again that they weren't affected by
4 the troops of Ramush or Tahir. They don't mention anything else about
5 RH, but they were very upset with what the Serbs did. They say that
6 their houses were destroyed and their relatives were killed by people who
7 used to be their friends."
8 Now, Mr. Vlahovic, when you saw Shaban Sadikaj, had he already
9 been beaten, as far as you could see? Mr. Vlahovic? When you saw
10 Shaban Sadikaj, had he already been beaten, as far as you could see?
11 A. Well, they say in this statement that they were helping the
12 Serbs. What Serbs? There were no Serbs around during the war. It was
13 back in 1998. They were killing the Serbs. Nobody got out of Dasinovac
14 alive. None of this is true at all. How could they have helped any
15 Serbs at all? So it's not true.
16 And secondly --
17 Q. Could you just answer my question, Mr. Vlahovic, without telling
18 us about the Serbs for a moment. Was he already beaten when you spoke to
19 him or not?
20 A. When I spoke to him, he had not yet been beaten.
21 Q. I see. Did you know about him being beaten afterwards?
22 A. No, I didn't. I didn't see him afterwards. I didn't hear from
23 him. When I did see him, he seemed "business as usual" and in good
24 health, too.
25 Q. I see. Because do you know, Mr. Vlahovic, who Salih Sadikaj is?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You are recorded in a complaint together with your brother Novak
3 and your brother Goran and Stanisa Radosevic, your friend, as having
4 beaten Shaban Sadikaj brutally for about half an hour with pistols,
5 machine-guns, and knives. Did you do that, Mr. Vlahovic?
6 A. I don't know who could possibly have survived that sort of thing,
7 what they're saying here. Who could have survived? As I said a while
8 ago, I was alone. Shaban was fine. I didn't touch him or anything at
9 all. We just spoke. And that's the truth of it.
10 Q. Did you take your pistol with you when you went? The pistol you
11 had, did you take it with you?
12 A. I might have.
13 Q. Because one of the things he's recorded as being beaten with is a
14 pistol; a pistol-whipping, in other words. Did you do that,
15 Mr. Vlahovic?
16 A. Again, I repeat: I didn't even touch him, let alone pistol-whip
17 him, as you suggest. This is a lie. What it says here is a lie.
18 And secondly, I was on my own.
19 Q. I see.
20 A. I met him, I spoke to him, and I left.
21 Q. Do you know who Halil Sadikaj is?
22 A. Halil?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. No, no, I don't.
25 Q. He know who you are, Mr. Vlahovic. Is it your evidence that
1 you're on good terms with these people, with Salih Sadikaj, the man who I
2 just mentioned to you? Is it your evidence that you were on good terms
3 with him by September 1998? They were your friends?
4 A. September 1998, there was no relationship at all. I saw Shaban
5 then and I never saw them again, not before April. Not since April 1998.
6 I didn't see any of the Sadikajs. The only one I saw was Shaban.
7 Q. Let me make my question clear to you, Mr. Vlahovic. You've told
8 us that you got on well with your Albanian neighbours, haven't you, until
9 April --
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. And you described Shaban Sadikaj as a friend of yours, didn't
13 A. I didn't say that Shaban Sadikaj was a friend of mine. I never
14 said that. I said that we didn't have any dispute with anyone. We were
15 on good terms with everyone. But I never mentioned Shaban specifically,
16 and I never said that we were friends.
17 Q. So there was no problem between your family and his?
18 A. There were no problems.
19 Q. Can you think of any reason why Salih Sadikaj should make up --
20 MR. DI FAZIO: I object to that question. Mr. Emmerson should
21 know better. That is calling for the most rampant speculations. In
22 fact, he said -- he said he didn't even know him.
23 MR. EMMERSON: No, he didn't. He said he didn't know
24 Halil Sadikaj, thank you.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Whether he did or didn't, it's a question that
1 Mr. Emmerson should know better not to ask.
2 MR. EMMERSON: I don't accept the criticism at all. This witness
3 has given evidence that they were on good terms. I'm asking whether
4 there's anything in their relationship which could cause this person
5 concerned to have a motive to fabricate an account of a beating of his
7 MR. DI FAZIO: No, the question is: Can you think of any reason
8 why Salih Sadikaj should make up," and we know what was coming after
10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, well, that's exactly the question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand now that it's the formulation,
12 rather than the content of the question that bothers you, Mr. Di Fazio.
13 I, by the way, urge both parties to use the language which does not make
14 problems any bigger than they are already, that this rampant or
15 speculation is -- speculation, as such, should not be sought.
16 Could you formulate the question in such a way that Mr. Di Fazio
17 is -- would take into account what Mr. Di Fazio brought up.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, do you know of any reason in your relationship,
20 that is, the relationship between your family and Mr. Sadikaj's, which
21 could cause someone to have a sufficient grudge against your family to
22 make up a false allegation that you and your brothers beat
23 Shaban Sadikaj?
24 A. If they had been such good friends they would have got my father
25 and mother out. They were an old couple who didn't harm anyone, and that
1 is why they made up the whole story. And I stand by it 1.000 per cent.
2 Q. I see. And finally on this topic, I've got one more area to
3 cover, but finally on this topic, Mr. Vlahovic, a man called
4 Halil Sadikaj has lodged a complaint that together with your brothers
5 Novak and Goran and together with Stanisa Radosevic, Novak Stijovic and
6 your cousin Zvonko Markovic, you took part in looting the Albanian houses
7 on the 7th of September. Is that true?
8 A. That's a lie. I'm telling you again, it's completely impossible.
9 Q. The allegation is that together you entered Albanian houses and
10 robbed them of electrical equipment and cars. Did you take a car,
11 Mr. Vlahovic? Did you take your car?
12 MR. DI FAZIO: I object to that question, if Your Honours please.
13 Mr. Emmerson -- I wonder if Mr. Emmerson is listening to the answers.
14 Mr. Emmerson quite rightly put to the witness that this man has made a --
15 what he called, lodged a complaint against the brothers, and then asked
16 him -- and that this man had taken part in looting, and very rightly
17 asked him, is that true? And then the witness said: "That's a lie. I'm
18 telling you again, it's completely impossible."
19 Next question, into the details of the looting. Now, the witness
20 has said he hasn't done it. That's the end of the matter.
21 MR. EMMERSON: No, it's not.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Mr. Emmerson wants to put documents to him or
23 other matters, then so be it. But once the witness has said no, it
24 didn't happen, how much further can he take it?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Di Fazio, I think that in
1 cross-examination, that a first "no" would not prevent cross-examining
2 counsel from putting any further questions.
3 Let me just give you an example. No, I'll not do that at this
4 moment. So, therefore, within certain limits --
5 MR. EMMERSON: I won't press beyond one further question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Within certain limits if there is a denial of
7 a general nature, then it is not per se impermissible to put an
8 additional question introducing a certain detail which might refresh the
9 memory of the witness or might be making him aware that certain details
10 seem to be known by the cross-examining party. There are certainly
11 limits to that; I fully agree with that. But that limit has not been
12 reached yet.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honour --
14 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, I am aware of techniques in
15 cross-examination. Sometimes the tone becomes a bit more intense than at
16 other moments. I am inviting the parties to keep that within limits
17 themselves; otherwise, I'll have to draw the lines. If you keep within
18 the limits, I don't have to draw the lines; if you go clearly beyond what
19 the limits should be, then I have to intervene.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Entirely understood, Your Honour.
22 Q. The car, your car, did you take it away with you?
23 A. No. And what you said a minute ago is absolutely untrue. Not a
24 single word is true. There was no looting. It's -- it's fantasy.
25 Q. Do you say there was no looting or are you saying you didn't take
1 part in it? Are you giving evidence that the Albanian houses were not
2 looted in Dashinoc in September 1998?
3 A. What I'm saying is that I didn't even see them being looted, let
4 alone myself being involved in that. That's a complete fabrication.
5 It's just a lie.
6 Q. I see. Can I move on now to the final main topic I want to cover
7 which is the conversation you say you had with Arifaj Madjun. Now, you
8 told us yesterday that in September you met Arifaj Madjun and he told you
9 that he had seen your parents and Milica Radunovic being taken away
10 towards Gllogjan. Now, you said yesterday that he told you that the men
11 were armed and in uniform but that he didn't know them, and you said that
12 he didn't give you any description of the uniforms they were wearing and
13 you didn't ask him, and that he didn't tell you their ethnicity and you
14 didn't ask him that either?
15 Now, against that background, I just want to ask you one or two
16 further questions. The record of your videolink interview from Belgrade
17 on the 8th of March has a passage which reads as follows: "The witness,"
18 that is you, "did not ask when this had happened and Madjun didn't say
19 anything about the date."
20 Was that an accurate record of what you said in the proofing
21 session when you spoke on the videolink from Belgrade?
22 A. That's correct. I didn't ask him when they were taken.
23 Q. So as far as you knew from the information he'd supplied you
24 with, it could have happened, this incident, at any time between the 20th
25 of September -- the 20th of April and the beginning of September? You
1 have absolutely no idea when during those months it happened and you
2 didn't think to ask; is that right?
3 A. I didn't ask him when this happened precisely, but it must have
4 happened much earlier.
5 Q. Well, didn't you want to know when it had happened?
6 A. Nuo went. They were not at home, so that was more or less the
7 period of time when this incident happened. If they weren't at home two
8 weeks later, after the 20th of April, it must have been early May, so I
9 did -- there was no need for me to ask.
10 Q. This was the Nuo who you told us earlier on had told Rade that
11 your parents were released at Prilep? Is that the person we're talking
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, you said yesterday that Madjun told you that
15 someone called Bajram Imer had told these men not to touch your parents,
16 had told them that they were elderly and that they should be released,
17 and that these armed men then tried to kill Bajram Imer for intervening.
18 Is that what you say Arifaj Madjun told you?
19 A. What he told me then was, there was no way for us to save them,
20 and he added that Imer Ademi, I think, was his last name, insisted
21 vehemently that they be released and that they wanted to kill him for
22 that, that's what he said; that he couldn't save them.
23 Q. Did Arifaj Madjun say how they tried to kill him, or what he had
24 done to escape from being killed? Did he give you that part of the
25 incident or not?
1 A. I didn't ask him at the time what had happened.
2 Q. Did you try and speak to Bajram Imer or Imer Ademi yourself? Try
3 to find him and speak to him yourself?
4 A. No, I didn't look for him and I didn't see him.
5 Q. Did you suggest to any of your three brothers in the police that
6 they should try and find this man who saw your parents being taken away?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. Because as far as we understand it, after your conversation with
9 Arifaj Madjun, you didn't know who these men were, you had no
10 identification for them, and you didn't know when this incident had
11 happened. Didn't you want to know who it was that had taken your parents
12 away, get their identities from the man who was an eye-witness to it, see
13 if he knew who they were?
14 A. As for the identity, I knew that they were Albanians. There was
15 no other people; there were only Albanians. And everybody knew who was
16 in command in Gllogjan. Madjun didn't know --
17 Q. Didn't you want to find out from Bajram Imer whether he knew who
18 these particular men were who had taken your parents away?
19 A. If Madjun didn't know and they were neighbours, if this one
20 didn't know him and they were neighbours, then the other one didn't know
21 them either. That was common knowledge. I knew that they had been taken
22 to Glodjane. There was no need for me to ask. And everybody knew who
23 was living there; the Albanians were living there. And everybody knew
24 who was in charge. It was common knowledge. Everybody knew that.
25 Q. I'll come to that in just a second. Did Madjun tell you whether
1 these men were in a car or on foot?
2 A. I didn't ask him at the time. I didn't need that information. I
3 thought it was irrelevant, whether they were in a vehicle or on foot. My
4 main concern and worry was that they had been taken away. That's why I
5 didn't ask him about this specifically.
6 Q. Forgive me for putting this to you, Mr. Vlahovic, but the
7 description that you're giving us of a conversation with a man you say
8 told you he'd seen your parents being taken away in which you didn't ask
9 for the ethnicity of the men or a description of their uniforms or the
10 date when it happened, and you didn't go and look for another witness to
11 see if they could help you with this information, I'm going to suggest to
12 you that you are not telling the truth about this and that had you had
13 such a conversation, you would have been asking and seeking far greater
14 information about the circumstances that this man was describing to you.
15 A. I did have this conversation, definitely. Why should I invent
16 that, according to you? But I also knew that they were not at home two
17 weeks later. I knew that there were no Serbs there. The Serbs had all
18 been killed. I know that only Siptars were living there. I know that
19 the HQ was in Glodjane, and that the man in charge was Ramush Haradinaj.
20 So I knew all that. Why should I be going around asking people
22 And the only time when I was able to go there was in September,
23 when everything was over already and it was known for a fact that they
24 were not alive any longer. That is all true. These are your
25 speculations and your guesswork, and it's up to you to think that. But
1 that's how it happened.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, fifteen minutes ago, you said you had
3 one topic to cover.
4 MR. EMMERSON: This is the topic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And earlier -- yes, I do understand. Earlier you
6 said whether we'd allow you to use one hour. It's now 75 minutes. How
7 much time would you need? Because I'm thinking about the break.
8 MR. EMMERSON: I can certainly finish in ten minutes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Make it seven, please.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
11 Q. The location where Madjun told you that he had seen this take
12 place, you told us it was on a bridge crossing the Ratiska River; is that
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. Did he tell you which direction they took from there?
16 A. This road leads only to Rznic and Glodjane, nowhere else.
17 Q. Yes. Well, it leads from Ratishe across the bridge towards
18 Irzniq, and at Irzniq you can go -- excuse me, at Irzniq, you can go left
19 to Gllogjan, straight ahead towards Prilep, or right towards Pozar; is
20 that correct?
21 A. Yes. There was an intersection; that's correct.
22 Q. Yes. And so when you tell us that they were taken towards
23 Gllogjan --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before we get in any further troubles, let's verify.
25 Mr. Vlahovic, is it correct that the bridge you're talking about
1 is the bridge near Rznic? Because you suggest -- it's an implicit
2 suggestion, your question, that they took the route west and then -- or
3 then I have misunderstood.
4 MR. EMMERSON: It's not a suggestion; it was a question. I'm
5 asking the witness --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but let's try to deal with the question in a
7 different way.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So that we give the witness an opportunity to say
10 whether he went south or east or west --
11 MR. EMMERSON: I'm obviously --
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- at the beginning, because there are several routes
13 to the road, as you say.
14 MR. EMMERSON: I'm obviously trying to do it as quickly as
15 possible --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.
17 MR. EMMERSON: -- without taking the witness to the map.
18 Q. But let's be clear, Mr. Vlahovic. The bridge that you describe
19 is on a road that leads from Gornji Ratishe to Irzniq, is it not?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did he tell you whether they were going east towards
22 Gornji Ratishe or west towards Irzniq? Did he say that one way or the
24 A. Towards Rznic, that they were headed towards Rznic.
25 Q. So he said that without telling you whether they were on foot or
1 in a vehicle?
2 A. He didn't mention that. He just told me that they had been taken
3 in the direction of Rznic. Whether they were in a car or ...?
4 Q. And had they reached Rznic, they could then have gone straight
5 ahead towards Prilep, left towards Gllogjan, or right towards Pozar and
6 Kordolija, could they not?
7 A. They could have gone had they been released.
8 Q. No --
9 A. And had they gone towards Prilep, they would have been alive now.
10 So the only direction they could have been taken was towards Glodjane.
11 Q. This is your inference, Mr. Vlahovic, isn't it? You weren't told
12 by Madjun -- excuse me. You were not told by Madjun, were you, that he
13 heard these men saying they were going to Gllogjan?
14 A. I didn't ask him that, but had they gone towards Prilep, they
15 would have gotten out, they would have been alive. Where else could have
16 they gone?
17 Q. Don't, please, speculate about where they might have gone. This
18 man did not tell you that he had heard anyone saying they were going
19 towards Gllogjan, did he?
20 A. No, he didn't. But the location where my mother was later found
21 confirmed that. She was found in the canal.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vlahovic, it's relatively simple. What
23 Mr. Emmerson seeks to find out is whether you made the inference that
24 they could not have been heading -- is there a translation problem? I'll
25 try it again.
1 Mr. Emmerson tries to find out whether it's because you think
2 that they could not have been heading to any other place in view of what
3 you later learned, to any other place than Gllogjan, or whether in your
4 conversation you were told that someone during that encounter said to
5 Madjun, that because of that they could have only been heading to
6 Gllogjan. So was it said, or is it just because you can't imagine
7 anything else?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: When you say yes, you mean that you can't imagine
10 anything else, but that it was not explicitly said? Is that correctly
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I cannot imagine anything
13 other than that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and it was not explicitly -- you were not told
15 that this was explicitly said?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. EMMERSON:
19 Q. And finally this, if I may. You mentioned your mother in the
20 canal. Can I ask you please to confirm the following: You've told us
21 that with your brothers, you went to Hotel Pastrik and identified some
22 clothing that you thought belongs to your father. And as a result of
23 that identification, a set of remains were released to your family which
24 you buried, believing to be your father; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you do your honest best to identify the clothes that you were
3 A. Yes, we did, but it was a long period involved between April and
4 September. And the second thing, how could we know what they were
5 wearing on that day? It wasn't that we saw them the following day, so it
6 was difficult to establish.
7 Q. On this aspect of your testimony, there's no criticism at all. I
8 entirely understand. But the fact is that you and your brothers, doing
9 your honest best, all identified a set of clothing you thought was your
10 father, which resulted in a body being released to you, which, later on
11 it was discovered, following an exhumation and a DNA test, was the wrong
12 person. It wasn't your father at all. That's right, isn't it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson. I would seek one
16 clarification but not from the witness but perhaps from the parties at
17 this moment. But before we have a break, how much time would you need,
18 Mr. Guy-Smith? How much time would you need, Mr. Harvey?
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I take any time at all - I'm going to have a
20 conversation during the break - it would be no more than 10 minutes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
22 MR. HARVEY: That conversation will partly be with me, as a
23 result of which I will decide whether -- but it will not be more than
24 five minutes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Then, Mr. Vlahovic, there may be - "may be" I say - a few more
2 questions from other Defence counsel after the break. We'll have a break
3 and we'll resume at -- for you, I'm telling you now, at -- we are not yet
4 there, Madam Usher.
5 We'll resume at approximately 20 minutes -- at 20 minutes past
6 4.00, but I have one further question for Mr. Emmerson before we adjourn.
7 But the witness can leave already.
8 Madam Usher, the witness can be escorted out of the courtroom.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: I ask for the following clarification: If there's
11 any agreement between the parties on this event. Of course, if not, then
12 we'll have to find out in a different way.
13 Your questions implied that the witness had recognised the
14 clothing of his father and that turned out to be not correct, at least a
15 later DNA analysis showed that the body that was given to the family was
16 not the body of his father.
17 MR. EMMERSON: That's correct.
18 JUDGE ORIE: What was not clear to me is was the clothing at that
19 moment on the body when they recognised this or was it separate?
20 MR. EMMERSON: No. Separate. The way the identifications were
21 done - and it's partly because the remains were in various states of
22 decomposition - is that the clothing was removed from the remains and, I
23 think, even cleaned and then spread out on tables, and families were
24 invited to look at the clothing and conduct identifications in that way.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. EMMERSON: And this is one -- and Your Honours will know I've
2 been mentioning it in various documents at various stages in the
3 pre-trial stage.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. EMMERSON: There are -- of the positive clothing
6 identifications that took place from the remains discovered at the canal,
7 half of them turned out to be like this one, in error.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that. But just for my
9 understanding -- Mr. Dutertre, if you disagree, then, of course, I would
10 like to hear from you. So if there are -- if we're talking about
11 mistakes in the identification, but just correct me when I'm wrong, I
12 still see two possibilities: That you identify the right clothing but
13 they give you the wrong body, or that you make a mistake in
14 identification of the body. We have no knowledge yet, so --
15 MR. EMMERSON: In this particular instance, there is no body for
16 the father, so the clothing that was identified was not taken from a body
17 that could possibly be the father. In other words, all of the bodies
18 that have been exhumed and DNA-identified, none of them are the father.
19 The father's body has not been recovered.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But at the same time, wasn't the body given to
21 the family?
22 MR. EMMERSON: It was the wrong body. It was the body of someone
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. But -- okay. We'll perhaps
25 have to learn more about this.
1 Mr. Dutertre, if you want to add anything. I'm just trying to
2 understand what the testimony is about.
3 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Your Honour. This
4 issue will be raised in further details with video elements which will
5 help you make your determination on this matter.
6 What we know for sure is that, indeed, there may be some things
7 taken from bodies which remain unidentified up to now, and it's difficult
8 sometimes to establish correspondence between these and blood samples.
9 There are still some unidentified bodies or cases.
10 Now, body parts belonging to the mother of the witness were
11 identified through DNA analysis, and I believe that there is an agreement
12 on that particular point with the Defence.
13 MR. EMMERSON: That's correct.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. EMMERSON: If it helps, Your Honour, just to be absolutely
16 clear, when the family went to the hotel, they could not find any
17 clothing that corresponded to the mother, so no identification was made
18 of the mother. They found clothing they believed to be the father's, and
19 on the basis of that clothing and a comparison of ante and post mortem
20 data, a set of remains was released to the family as being the father and
21 nothing as being the mother.
22 It then turned out subsequently that all of the remains that were
23 exhumed for identification, including all of the unidentified remains
24 that Mr. Dutertre refers to, were tested against the DNA of the family
25 and it turned out that the body that had been released to the family as
1 the father was in fact another man called Istref Krasniqi and one of the
2 unidentified remains was the mother but none of the unidentified remains
3 were the father.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you already for this clarification. It is for
5 us to better be able to follow the evidence -- what the evidence is
6 exactly about. I know there is some agreement. Therefore, I didn't
7 want to ask the witness very specific questions if it's not an matter in
9 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] And a brief addition, Your Honour.
10 I'll be brief, I promise. The human remains of the mother which were
11 identified had to do with legs. They were bones from the legs and there
12 was no clothing available, which explains the fact that there was no
13 identification through clothing for the mother. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: What, perhaps, may have confused me, that earlier
15 mention -- it was mentioned "traditional recognition" and it now becomes
16 clearer and clearer to me that this is not traditional recognition
17 because usually in traditional recognition, you have both the body and
18 the clothes often on it.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. By traditional identification, Your Honours
20 should read "clothing identification coupled with a comparison of ante
21 mortem and post mortem data," in other words, a person of a certain age
22 with a gold tooth, or whatever it is.
23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Again, very briefly on that
24 particular point. This is just an addition, again. I'm sure we'll talk
25 about it later. But the circumstances in which all of these
1 identification took place were a bit difficult, which explains the fact
2 that the clothing had to be separated from the bodies.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There seems to be quite a lot of agreement.
4 Of course, the Chamber would have preferred to have all this in written
5 format so that we would have known about it already and not have to
6 speculate and to guess what will come tomorrow.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry to say, but just a reminder, you will find a
8 summary of this in the Defence pre-trial brief. It is set out there.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but not as -- as an agreement?
10 MR. EMMERSON: Well, it reflects the agreed state of the
11 evidence, and in the footnotes it should be reasonably identified.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I have not looked carefully enough.
13 We will resume at 4.25.
14 --- Recess taken at 4.01 p.m.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 --- On resuming at 4.32 p.m.
17 WITNESS: MILOICA VLAHOVIC [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vlahovic, we were informed that there are no
20 further questions by other counsel.
21 Mr. Dutertre, before the Chamber considers whether we have any
22 other questions, is there any wish to re-examine the witness?
23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Your Honour, I would
24 have a couple of questions to ask of this witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
1 Re-examination by Mr. Dutertre:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vlahovic, I would like to ask you some
3 further questions. First of all, as regard the tensions between the
4 Albanian population and the Serb population in the area where you lived
5 during the years preceding the conflict, Mr. Emmerson asked you if there
6 had been specific problems with specific Albanian families. This is on
7 page 70 of yesterday's transcript. Mr. Emmerson also asked you if there
8 had been property disputes between certain Albanian families and Serb
9 families. This is on page 71 of yesterday's transcript.
10 When I questioned you on Tuesday, you said that Serbs had left
11 the area, and you gave us a few figures about the number of students in
12 the Ratis village, that is, Serb students, and for you this was an
13 indication of the fact that the Serb population had left. In 1974 there
14 were some 20 students; and in 1980, there were two students, Serb
15 students, left when your brother completed school.
16 My question is as follows: To your opinion, what is the weight
17 to be granted to those property feuds or property disputes between Serb
18 families and Albanian families in the decrease in the number of Serbs
19 among the population of your village?
20 A. I don't think that was that important. There were property
21 disputes. Perhaps the Serbs were trying to sell some land in the 1980s
22 and 1990s and were unable to. But aside from that, there were no
23 disputes at all. All this happened because of the attacks that were
24 launched by the Albanians on the Serbs and all the intimidation that went
25 on and all the damage caused to the Serbs, which is what I spoke about
2 Q. I would like to move to another issue as regards the attendance
3 in schools. Yesterday, Mr. Emmerson asked you lengthy questions on the
4 school system in the 1990s. This is page 72 and 73 of yesterday's
5 transcript. And in an answer that you gave to one of his questions, you
6 indicated that in certain schools there were only Albanians, and you said
7 that Roma were in the same schools as Serbs. Was that your idea of the
8 situation in 1998? Were Roma in the same schools as Serbs? Does that
9 also depict the situation prevailing in 1998?
10 A. The Roma went more to Albanian schools than to Serb schools, and
11 the Siptars, of course, went to Siptar schools to be taught in their
12 Siptar language. Something I forgot yesterday. It was sometimes the
13 case that Serbs completed their schooling in Albanian in Decani, for
14 example, or the elementary school where I taught in Glamoc area, there
15 were two people called Lakicevic who were taught in Albanian, although
16 they were ethnic Serbs. I was not aware of a single case where an
17 Albanian or a Siptar completed their education in the Serbian language.
18 Not a single case.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can you explain to us the difference between an
20 Albanian and a Siptar in one sentence, how you were using this -- how you
21 used these words?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Back in Kosovo, the Albanians were
23 those living in Albanian, and the Siptars were those living in Kosovo,
24 but that is the only distinction that's normally drawn.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, as regards armed activities at the beginning of
3 1998, you said that on the 19th of April, 1998, your father had seen men
4 shooting in the air close to your house - that's what you were told by
5 your father - on the 20th. This reference can be found on page 57 of the
6 transcript. Mr. Emmerson asked you if before the 20th of April you had
7 already seen armed Albanian men on the roads or in the villages around
8 your house in Donji Ratis. This is page 57 of yesterday's transcript.
9 And you said no. Mr. Emmerson then asked you if the shooting that you
10 could hear on a regular basis since the beginning of the month of April -
11 I believe he was referring to the shooting coming from Glodjane - were
12 the only signs of such activities and you said yes?
13 I'd like to get a clarification on this particular point. When I
14 questioned you on Tuesday, you referred to a certain number of incidents,
15 the one involving Dragoslav and Mijat Stojanovic, brothers; the execution
16 of Slobodan Prascevic, a retired policeman who was driving his car the
17 beginning of March; the incident with the Culafic couple at the end of
18 February, beginning of March 1998, whose house was attacked with a
19 rocket-launcher; the attack with automatic rifles with shots coming from
20 different directions against the three houses, Babovic at the end of
21 February, beginning of March 1998; the shelling of the Orthodox church in
22 Donji Ratis. This is on the transcript of the 20th of March, 2007.
23 The question is as follows: How do you interpret this emergence
24 before the 20th of April, 1998 of repeated violent acts against Serbs or
25 against Serb property using often military weapons?
1 A. You could put it that way, yes.
2 MR. EMMERSON: I hesitate to rise because I can see how Mr.
3 Dutertre gets to the position he has got to in the question that he's
4 asked, but at the end of the day this witness has given evidence in
5 respect of each of those incidents that he did not himself witness them
6 and that, as far as I recall, there is no evidence as to who the
7 perpetrators were. Now, on the basis of that background, apart from the
8 Stojanovic incident, as to which we'll be hearing direct evidence that
9 there was no evidence on even a hearsay basis as to who the perpetrators
10 were. On the basis of that foundation, to ask a witness to express an
11 opinion on who was responsible for those activities or why they had been
12 carried out, in our submission, is not a proper question to be put to a
13 witness of fact.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Dutertre, I noticed that this is not the
15 first question asking for an opinion at this moment. Of course, this
16 witness is not an expert. But I -- of course, I do understand, Mr.
17 Emmerson, that there's still not unclear about it. Nevertheless, if this
18 witness has any -- if he would have any explanation which would be an
19 explanation that could be given by a non-expert, then the Chamber would
20 like to hear that.
21 At the same time, Mr. Dutertre, could you please repeat your
22 question and perhaps avoid words like, "how do you interpret this
23 emergence" or -- you could ask perhaps the witness, whether he ever heard
24 any explanation for the emergence, or -- because the witness is not an
25 expert but -- so I do not disallow the issue to be raised and I'm not
1 very strict on explanations and facts, but could you please try to keep
2 the witness as close to the facts as possible.
3 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes. It was not a trap. As a
4 civil lawyer I was trying to find something which was not leading, but
5 let me rephrase my question.
6 Q. How, Mr. Vlahovic, do you explain this series of repeated violent
7 acts against Serbs, using military weapons?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me put the question to the witness.
9 Mr. Vlahovic, are you aware of any facts that could serve to
10 better understand the developments at that time in terms of violence?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably these acts were committed
12 in order to intimidate the local Serbs and in order to get them to move
13 out of the area and in order to make Kosovo ethnically clean, so to
14 speak. It may be clear that I'm only referring to my own native area.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not an answer to the question, as a
16 matter of fact.
17 Mr. Dutertre, these are the kind of risks we are running if we
18 are asking for interpretations and explanations of certain developments.
19 You may proceed.
20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. I'd like now to move to the way some Serbs were treated, some
22 Serbs that you mentioned, treated by some Albanians that you also spoke
23 about. Mr. Emmerson, yesterday, asked you about the treatment of the
24 Markovic family and of Konstantin Stijovic. You said that the Markovic
25 family had been escorted out of the region by Djevdet Sadikaj, and you
1 also said that Djevdet Sadikaj had used a by-road because he was afraid
2 to take the main road. This is on page 58 of yesterday's transcript.
3 You also said that Konstantin Stijovic had told you he'd been released
4 thanks to the intervention of Ramush Haradinaj's father, Hilmi Haradinaj.
5 This is on page 81 of yesterday's transcript.
6 Here's my question: Given the fact that you knew what was going
7 on in the region, was the help given by the Markovic family and the
8 release of Mr. Stijovic, was that something that occurred frequently?
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You mean the help to the Markovic family or the
10 help by the Markovic family?
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The help received by the Markovic
12 family and the release of Konstantin Stijovic.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know. The Albanians
15 helped often; neighbours helped. I never thought that at that time they
16 would refuse to help.
17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Why is it that Djevdet Sadikaj, escorting the Markovic family,
19 why was he -- why didn't he want to take the main road?
20 A. Most probably, or, rather, certainly there were armed people
21 awaiting the Serbs on his way out. There's no other explanation. He
22 could have taken the road through Rznic and Prilep or, alternatively,
23 through Pozar and eventually reach Decani. Those were the two
24 short-cuts. And he took the very long away around, at least twice that
25 long, through the surrounding villages, and he eventually reached Pec
1 municipality, meaning there were armed people there who were preventing
2 Serbs from leaving the area.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, we need a factual basis for this last
5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, Your Honour.
6 Q. And I'd like to ask the witness whether this was an impression or
7 whether this was something that he knew himself?
8 A. Yes, I knew this personally. Even before this, there were
9 rumours and there was what happened to Stojanovic. They had been known
10 to stop people before and check people. They would release some of those
11 people and hold some of them back.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, here the question again is vague,
13 Mr. Dutertre, because the witness was asked why they took a certain road,
14 and then the witness gave an explanation of the reasons. And then you
15 asked him -- I asked for a factual basis for that, and then you asked him
16 whether this was an impression or whether this was something that he knew
17 himself. Now, we have two separate issues: Whether he knew about the
18 circumstances which may have inspired the decision to take a certain
19 road, and the second is whether this witness learned from whom that that
20 was the reason. So let me try to get this clear from the witness.
21 When you said this was your own knowledge, Mr. Vlahovic, did you
22 refer to the circumstances which you thought would have caused this road
23 to be taken, or were you referring to your knowledge that they took that
24 road for that reason? Did anyone tell you or -- perhaps my question is
25 not clear either.
1 Did anyone tell you that that was the reason they took this road;
2 and if not, what is, then, your source of knowledge that that was the
3 reason they took this road?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Milojka told me at the time
5 that they didn't have the courage to go through Ljumbarda or through
6 Rznic because he probably could not save them, they perhaps would have
7 killed them. And that's why he passed through Berane and reached
8 Rausic -- Dasinovac, Vranovac [phoen], Berane and Rausic.
9 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I don't like rising to interrupt, as
10 Your Honours know. If Mr. Dutertre is going to explore this issue, then
11 he, with respect, needs to explore it in the context of this witness's
12 earlier testimony that Djevdet Sadikaj, the man who conducted this
13 operation, was himself the KLA leader of Dashinoc.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, if you have any -- until now we have
15 only established what was the reason given, as we now learned by Milojka,
16 why they took that road. If you want to further explore the matter, I
17 think it would be fair to put it in the context of the testimony of the
19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, but I think that this
20 was in debate, you know, the role held by Djevdet Sadikaj. It was
21 mentioned by Mr. Emmerson yesterday, if my memory serves me right. And
22 furthermore, I had no other question apart from this one.
23 MR. EMMERSON: It wasn't mentioned by me. It was mentioned by
24 this witness. I put it to him from his statement and he agreed with it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Dutertre has no further questions for the
1 witness, so let's leave it at this for the time being.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, does the re-examination trigger any
4 need for further questions? Then let's see whether, perhaps, a few
5 questions from the Bench would trigger any further questions.
6 Judge Hoepfel has one or more questions for you, Mr. Vlahovic.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, Witness, can we get back to this issue of
9 your pistol. You were asked about that by Mr. Emmerson, and I would like
10 to know, had you bought this or how else did you get it, and when, in
11 which year?
12 A. You submit a request to be authorised to keep a weapon and then
13 this is authorised or not. Mine was authorised back in 1988, and I
14 bought this weapon with my own money.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. And were you carrying this pistol,
16 after you had last seen your parents, with you?
17 A. Sometimes I did and sometimes I didn't. Sometimes yes; sometimes
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And at this occasion which was discussed in
20 cross-examination, when you went -- where you saw your old car, were you
21 there with your pistol? Do you remember that?
22 A. I think I did not have a pistol on me, no.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And the car, just this very special question, did
24 this play any further role, then? Did you see it again after that time?
25 A. No, I never went there again.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question for you. Your testimony
3 yesterday referred to the events of the 21st and 22nd of April. You said
4 that you met a friend of yours. You went to Pec, from Djakovica to Pec.
5 You gave the name of that friend, Duna Laka. You said: "I left with him
6 for Pec to take a motor vehicle there on business." It was not clear to
7 me what you meant by "to take a motorcycle there on business"? What kind
8 of business in Pec? Your business? His business? Could you please
10 A. Certainly. This friend and I, we got a 124 Mercedes in
11 Djakovica, and we were about to take it to Pec.
12 JUDGE ORIE: For what reason?
13 A. Because the owner was from Pec.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And what, then, was the business? That's unclear to
16 A. To sign over the ownership of the car, which is done wherever the
17 owner happens to be residing. One needs to have a contract drawn up and
18 then, of course, rubber-stamped.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I then understand that you had sold that
21 A. No. I was the one buying it. I was making the purchase.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear to me. I have no further
23 questions for you.
24 Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need for further
1 Mr. Vlahovic, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd
2 like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for answering
3 questions of both parties and of the Bench. Under normal circumstances,
4 I would not instruct you not to speak with anyone about your testimony.
5 That is not usual. Once you're excused, you can speak with anyone.
6 However, in the present circumstances, and let me just ...
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Just to be sure, Mr. Dutertre, no protective
9 measures for coming witnesses, the immediate following witness? No. The
10 next witness, as you may be aware of, is your brother. Although you can
11 speak about your testimony, don't tempt your brother, who is not allowed
12 if he has started his testimony, to speak with anyone. Don't engage in
13 any conversations with him about your testimony with someone who is still
14 testifying at that moment. So, therefore, it's a bit unusual, but I
15 think it's better to refrain from further discussing the matter until you
16 travel back.
17 Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you
20 for calling me.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, is it you or Mr. Di Fazio who is
23 taking the next witness? Mr. Di Fazio.
24 Madam Registrar, do we have any -- yes, we have marked for
25 identification. Could you please read the documents? And I don't think
1 that any of them are under seal, are they?
2 MR. EMMERSON: No.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson -- one is under seal.
4 Mr. Emmerson.
5 MR. EMMERSON: I'm trying to recall which one it was that might
6 be under seal, first of all.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you give the number, then I'll have a look at it
8 on my --
9 THE REGISTRAR: It's Prosecution Exhibit number 30.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Dutertre, is there any need to have P30
11 under seal? From what I understand, it is a DNA report.
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I don't believe so, Your Honour,
13 but I'm wondering whether a decision had been made regarding the two
14 photographs of the parents of the previous witness. They were marked for
15 identification, but I'm not sure that they've been admitted.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We're not going to try to find that out. You
17 can communicate with the registrar to find out whether there's any
18 failure yet. If so, then of course we'll repair that.
19 Mr. Emmerson.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, in all, there are eight documents
21 that were referred to or used either before or during cross-examination.
22 Documents 1 to 6, first of all, which I gave to Your Honours in written
23 form yesterday have not, I think, formally been given an identification
25 JUDGE ORIE: No.
1 MR. EMMERSON: And so they will each need to be marked for
2 identification, and I will tender them for consideration as exhibits.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course if there are not any questions put
4 to the witness in relation to them, because we had no translation, that's
5 what you explained before.
6 I suggest that, just as we did yesterday, that we invite
7 Madam Registrar to make a list of those pending admission issues and
8 pending issues for marking for identification, and that on the basis of
9 that list we'll deal with it tomorrow.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that acceptable to you as well,
12 Mr. Di Fazio?
13 MR. DI FAZIO: It is. It is suitable. And I was just going to
14 say that we have a problem with them going into evidence at this moment
15 because of translation; we're not satisfied with the accuracy of it, of
16 the translations, in particular 5 and 6.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Then, Mr. Emmerson, you're aware that there's still some work to
19 be done.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: These documents, which still need a description,
22 will be marked for identification because they have been given to the
23 Chamber, but at this moment we delay any further decision on admission
24 into evidence.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Just in order to deal with the matter in a
1 procedurally and tidy manner, there are two other documents. One of them
2 is the single sheet which was shown on the ELMO, which culls that
3 material and was put to the witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. EMMERSON: And the final one is --
6 JUDGE ORIE: I dare ask -- I asked you whether you wanted to
7 tender it but you said "No," but you want to have it marked for
9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I will be, in due course, inviting Your
10 Honours to admit that as an exhibit.
11 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, let's be very practical. We have
12 a list of a couple of names. You read all these names to the witness and
13 no other names apart from the names on that sheet --
14 MR. EMMERSON: That's correct.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- so there is a full record of what was on that
17 MR. EMMERSON: That's correct.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And if there was not, now it is. So we don't need
19 to give a number to that.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. Well, the other document is the
21 investigator's report of the interview with the Sadikaj family.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. EMMERSON: Which was Defence document identification 48 which
24 needs to be marked for identification, and again will be tendered.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, let's first deal with this report
1 which is -- and that's an additional question, is not a full report
2 because there are huge parts -- did you receive it in this shape?
3 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. It's a redacted document disclosed to the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection to that, if Your Honours please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, I understand. But of course the Chamber is not
8 always happy to have to deal with redacted documents because not only the
9 Defence is losing some information about the context. The context could
10 be totally irrelevant and it could be damaging if it would be disclosed.
11 At the same time, the only party who has now been in a position to verify
12 that is the Prosecution, and even the Chamber now -- and the Chamber
13 doesn't usually like to be in the hands of the Prosecution completely on
14 these matters, just as the Chamber would not like to be in the hands of
15 the Defence completely in that respect.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not quite sure where Your Honour is going. Do
17 I understand Your Honours to be saying that you would -- you would like
18 to see the full document?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's at least one thing you could consider,
20 but then of course we'd have to know from the Defence whether the Defence
21 likes the idea that the Chamber sees the full document and the Defence
22 does not.
23 MR. EMMERSON: I think Your Honour can anticipate what the
24 response to that would be.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm good at guessing.
1 MR. EMMERSON: Apart from anything else, I wouldn't be in a
2 position to make submissions as to on the significance of it. If it's to
3 be looked at and be in any way part of the consideration, then obviously
4 the Defence need to be in a position to make informed representations
5 about it.
6 I should indicate that most of the redactions in this document do
7 not relate to this particular interview. There's a lot of other material
8 before this interview which is where Your Honours see the very heavy
9 black pages. But there is a section of about two or three lines redacted
10 at the bottom of page 6, a similar section at the top of page 7, and
11 another larger section afterwards. In other words, within the interview,
12 there are two short sections of redaction and it's possible that the
13 third one is also relating to this or it could be relating to something
14 else altogether. But as far as the very large redacted areas on pages 1,
15 2, 3, 4, and 5 are concerned, it's plain, I think, that those relate to
16 inquiries other than inquiries with this particular witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So there you accept that. Would it be a good
18 idea that perhaps Mr. Di Fazio tries to convince you that the other
19 portions -- because we do not know whether it's relevance, whether it's
20 confidentiality, what the reasons are. If you could try to resolve that.
21 Sometimes even a solution is that you just show the original unredacted
22 copy and say, Do you see that this is not related, or there are sometimes
23 ways of finding a solution where both parties would agree. And if both
24 parties agree, then, of course, the Chamber would have less reluctance to
25 accept it in this format.
1 MR. EMMERSON: We will discuss it between ourselves. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. But a number -- it needs a number
3 anyhow, Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, actually, both the documents have
5 already been given the numbers. It's D14 and D15.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then we'll wait to see whether there
7 are any -- at the same time, I'm a bit hesitant, Mr. Emmerson, because
8 what happens is that you're provided with the redacted document, you do
9 not complain about receiving a redacted document, you are the one who
10 tenders into evidence the document, and now the Chamber is starting
11 making trouble. That's a bit the world upside down. Nevertheless, I
12 think for the Chamber to accept redacted documents, if the Defence is
13 happy with it and stays happy with it, then we'll be happy with it as
14 well, I take it.
15 MR. EMMERSON: May I discuss it with Mr. Dutertre and then
16 resolve it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll hear from you.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then the six documents, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,
20 6, Madam Registrar, that were provided to the Chamber and served as an
21 introduction to the cross-examination of the last witness, could you
22 please give numbers for these documents.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, number 1 will be Exhibit number
24 D16, marked for identification; number 2 will be Exhibit number D17,
25 marked for identification; number 3, Exhibit number D18, marked for
1 identification; 4, D19, marked for identification; 5, D20, marked for
2 identification; and number 6 will be Exhibit number D21, marked for
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. None of them under
5 seal, Mr. Emmerson, I take it? No.
6 Then any further issue in relation to documents? If not, Madam
7 Usher, would you please escort the next witness into the courtroom.
8 And that would be, Mr. Di Fazio?
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, I hadn't realised that was a question.
10 It's the brother, Goran Vlahovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm anxious not to make any mistake, because
12 we find a lot of family names.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: At least that's who I think is walking through the
14 door. I'm pretty sure it is.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Vlahovic. At least I take it
17 that you're Mr. Vlahovic. Before you give evidence in this court, you
18 are required to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth,
19 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out
20 to you by Madam Usher. I'd like to invite you to make that solemn
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: GORAN VLAHOVIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Vlahovic. Please be seated.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first be examined by Mr. Di Fazio, who's
4 counsel for the Prosecution.
5 Mr. Di Fazio, you may proceed.
6 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
7 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, as you've just heard, my name is Di Fazio and we
8 haven't spoken before. I just want you to understand that I'm one of the
9 Prosecutors in this case.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Madam Usher, I wonder if you could move the ELMO.
11 I can't see the witness's face. Thank you very much.
12 Q. Now, can you tell us the name of the village in which you were
13 born --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, especially in this family situation,
15 should we not start with the full name and date of birth so that we
16 have --
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly. I can get those details. Not a
18 problem. And I'm grateful to Your Honour for reminding me.
19 Q. Can you give us your date of birth?
20 A. 16th of June, 1974.
21 Q. And just for the record, your full name, please?
22 A. Goran Vlahovic.
23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where you were born?
24 A. In Decani.
25 Q. Is that Decani municipality?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And a few more specifics. What village in that municipality,
4 A. Ratis.
5 Q. It's not in dispute in this case that there are two Ratises:
6 Gornji and Donji. Which one?
7 A. Gornji. Gornji Ratis.
8 Q. And if I ask -- if I asked your ethnicity, what is your answer?
9 A. I'm a Serb.
10 Q. Thank you. I want you to cast your mind back to early 1998. At
11 that period of time did you have a job, an occupation; and if so, what
12 was it?
13 A. Yes. I worked as a conductor in Decani.
14 Q. Conductor of what?
15 A. The company called Autoprevoz on the line between Decani and Pec.
16 Q. And just so there's no doubt about that, that's a bus company.
17 You're a bus conductor; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. And how long had you been working at that job in early 1998?
20 A. Since 1996.
21 Q. What sort of work did you do before that?
22 A. I worked in a sawmill in Decani.
23 Q. Did you do military service in your youth?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Where?
1 A. In Pristina.
2 Q. And how long for?
3 A. Twelve months.
4 Q. And did you specialise in any particular aspect of military
5 training during that year?
6 A. No, I didn't.
7 Q. Did you ever train as a policeman?
8 A. No.
9 Q. In 1997 or early 1998, were you in any reserve force? And by
10 "reserve force," I'm talking about any sort of reserve police force or
11 reserve army force.
12 A. I wasn't.
13 Q. Okay. I would also like some more personal details, if you don't
14 mind. Could you -- I'd like you -- to take you through your family,
15 starting with your parents, give us the names of your parents, and then
16 start with your siblings and start at the top with the oldest one, and
17 tell us the name of all your siblings, brothers and sisters, in
18 descending order. So let's start with your mother and father and then
19 tell us the rest of them.
20 A. Milovan Vlahovic, Milka Vlahovic --
21 Q. They're your parents?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And now your siblings, starting with the eldest down to
24 the youngest?
25 A. Nada Vlahovic.
1 Q. You can keep going.
2 A. Novak Vlahovic.
3 Q. Just keep going and keep going until you've got to the end of the
5 A. Miloica Vlahovic, Rade Vlahovic, Natalia Vlahovic.
6 Q. Thank you. In early 1998, where did your parents reside?
7 A. In the village of Gornji Ratis.
8 Q. And just so you understand, I'm asking you -- when I say the
9 early period of 1998, I'm talking about the period January, February,
10 March of 1998. Now, in about that period of time, where did you live?
11 A. I was also living in Ratis.
12 Q. Now, is that in exactly the same village, namely, Gornji Ratis,
13 or is it Donji?
14 A. The same village, Gornji Ratis.
15 Q. And in that village did you live at the same house, in the same
16 house, the same building, as your parents, or did you have your own
17 separate house?
18 A. In the same house.
19 Q. How did you get to your work in that period of time?
20 A. We travelled by car.
21 Q. Can I just ask you to slow down with your answers. Just wait a
22 little moment because your answers have to be interpreted, and it makes
23 it easier for me and for everyone here if you just slow it down a bit.
24 So just listen to my question carefully and then answer it, okay?
25 You say: "We travelled by car." Who travelled by car from
1 Gornji Ratis to work?
2 A. My brother and I.
3 Q. Which brother are you talking about?
4 A. Novak.
5 Q. And what sort of car was that?
6 A. A Mercedes.
7 Q. And do you have a model on that, please? What type of Mercedes
8 are you speaking about?
9 A. 123.
10 Q. Did all of your siblings have their own cars, or was that the
11 only one in the family?
12 A. We had other cars as well.
13 Q. Mercedes, other Mercedes, or was that the only one in the family?
14 A. There was another Mercedes.
15 Q. And what model was that?
16 A. 190.
17 Q. In early 1998 - and remember that I'm again talking about that
18 period of time January, February, March - did you have any problems in
19 making the commute from Gornji Ratis to your work-place?
20 A. We didn't.
21 Q. Were you aware or did you have any information that any of your
22 siblings had any trouble?
23 A. Not that I know of.
24 Q. Thank you. And I'd just like to know some details about the
25 people who lived in Gornji Ratis. Were there Serb families living there?
1 A. Yes. There were four households.
2 Q. Thank you. And what about the remainder of the village? What
3 ethnicity were they?
4 A. Albanians and Catholics.
5 Q. Okay. And when you say "Catholics," do you mean Albanian
6 Catholics or some other ethnic group who were Catholic?
7 A. Albanians.
8 Q. And just finally on this issue. You say there were four Serb
9 households living in the village. In terms of households, how many
10 households of Albanian ethnicity would you say there were in that
12 A. I don't know exactly.
13 Q. Thank you. I'm not asking you to provide absolute precision, but
14 can you give us an answer? I'd just like to know if four households were
15 in the majority or in the minority? Can you give us even an approximate
17 A. A minority.
18 Q. Minority Serb; is that what you mean?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. I've asked you some questions about the first few
21 months of 1998, and I asked you some questions about whether you or your
22 family members had any problems in commuting, travelling in the area, and
23 you said no.
24 A. We didn't.
25 Q. Just remember what I said about waiting. Let me finish my
1 questions. I'm a bit of a slow-speaker so just wait on, okay?
2 Was it the same in April? Did you have trouble-free commuting
3 from Gornji Ratis to the bigger towns in the area?
4 A. Yes, by the 20th of April, approximately.
5 Q. I'm going to come to that date in a moment. But up until that
6 time, you had no complaints or you couldn't -- you didn't have any
7 trouble in getting from your village to any of the larger towns, Pec or
8 Decani, and so on?
9 A. No, there were no problems.
10 Q. Very well. I want you to turn your attention now to the period
11 of time around the 20th of April. First of all, around the 20th of
12 April, were you still residing in Gornji Ratis with your parents?
13 A. Yes, I did, until the 21st.
14 Q. And on the 21st, did you go to work or did you remain in Gornji
15 Ratis? Can you tell the Trial Chamber what you did on that day?
16 A. I went to work.
17 Q. How did you get to work on that day?
18 A. By car.
19 Q. Which car?
20 A. The Mercedes.
21 Q. And did you go to work alone on that day, or were any of your
22 family, or indeed anyone else for that matter, was anyone else with you?
23 A. With my brother.
24 Q. Which one? Give us a name, please.
25 A. Novak.
1 Q. What was Novak's job at that time?
2 A. He was employed with Autoprevoz Pec.
3 Q. Sorry, was that the same company that you worked for?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. What was -- thank you. And what was Novak's job with Autoprevoz?
6 A. He was a driver.
7 Q. Did your parents have a telephone at their house?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Thank you. On that day that you left for work, on the 21st of
10 April, 1998, did you see your parents?
11 A. We saw them on that day and never again.
12 Q. Did you go to work on that day and carry out your normal duties?
13 A. Yes, we did.
14 Q. Did you try and get back to your house or your home that day?
15 A. Yes, we did.
16 Q. You say: "Yes, we did." When you say "we did," who are you
17 referring to?
18 A. My brother and me.
19 Q. And is that Novak?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Well, did you have any success?
22 A. No, none.
23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber why not? What prevented you from
24 getting back home?
25 A. They didn't let us. The roads were blocked.
1 Q. All right. Now, let's take this step by step. How did you find
2 out that the roads were blocked? And what even caused you to make any
3 inquiry or -- let me rephrase that. How did you find out that the roads
4 were blocked?
5 A. The police wouldn't allow us through. They wouldn't allow us to
6 go there.
7 Q. Which police, located where precisely?
8 A. At Decani.
9 Q. What I'd like you to do is try and give the Trial Chamber an idea
10 of how it was that the police in Decani prevented you from going back.
11 Was there a roadblock, a police roadblock? Did you receive information?
12 Did you stop and speak to a policeman in the street? Did they come and
13 see you? Please try and explain to the Trial Chamber how it was, how it
14 came about, that the police informed you or led you to understand that
15 you couldn't go back?
16 A. The police were at Decani, and they didn't allow us through.
17 They said the road was blocked and that one could not proceed.
18 Q. Were you and your brother in your car at that stage, intending to
19 go home?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So it was a roadblock. You were stopped by the police at a
22 roadblock and they said, You can't go ahead. Do I understand your
23 evidence correctly?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you make inquiries or ask the police why not?
1 A. Yes. The road was blocked. One was no longer able to proceed
2 and go there.
3 Q. Well, did you ask the police what sort of block it was? Was it a
4 tree, a land-slide, armed men? What was it that blocked this road? The
5 Trial Chamber would like to know.
6 A. They said there were armed men.
7 Q. Did you try and get details from the police about what armed men?
8 A. No. We asked no more questions.
9 Q. Were you worried about your parents?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Well, being worried about your parents, did you try and make any
12 other inquiries about whether it was possible to get back to them, back
13 to Gornji Ratis and to your home and see if they were there?
14 A. We tried but we couldn't.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, you tell the Trial Chamber what efforts you
16 made. You say: "We tried ..." So tell them what you attempted to do?
17 A. We tried to take the other road but it wasn't possible.
18 Q. Just tell the Trial Chamber what the usual road was that you
19 would take after you finish work and you're going back to Gornji Ratis.
20 Which villages would -- just a minute, just a minute, just a minute. Let
21 me finish. Which villages would you drive through to get back to Gornji
22 Ratis on a normal day? And then after you've done that, try and tell --
23 tell the Trial Chamber which alternative route you sought after you heard
24 that the normal route was blocked. So tell us about the normal route
25 first and then the alternative that you tried.
1 A. First, Luka, Pozar, Ljumbarda, and Ratis. The other time,
2 Crnobreg, Prilep, Rznic, Ratis.
3 Q. And how far did you get using the alternative route?
4 A. As far as Prilep. No further.
5 Q. What stopped you there?
6 A. The police.
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Which police, please? The same kind of police
8 which had stopped you before?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the same police.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: What police is that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb police.
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
13 MR. DI FAZIO:
14 Q. And did you get any information from the second police-block that
15 told you you couldn't go ahead, about what the situation was up ahead?
16 A. We were told the road was blocked, it wasn't possible to go
17 there, and they didn't let us through.
18 Q. And on this occasion did you try and get any more details from
19 the police, for example, what was blocking the road, when it might be
20 unblocked, matters such as that?
21 A. We tried but they were unable to tell us anything.
22 Q. Either at the first block or the second block that you've told us
23 about- I'm talking about the roadblocks by the police- did you get any --
24 find out from the police what or who was blocking the road?
25 A. They just told us there were armed men but that was all they told
2 Q. All right. Faced with this situation, what did you do?
3 A. We returned to Decani.
4 Q. And in the following days, did you make attempts to get back to
5 Gornji Ratis?
6 A. We tried but it was no longer possible. They didn't let people
8 Q. Now, you say: "We tried ..." Again, I'd like you to tell the
9 Trial Chamber how you made these efforts. You told us that you and Novak
10 had tried to drive back. Who tried to make the efforts to get back to
11 Gornji Ratis?
12 A. Novak and I.
13 Q. And was that in the same way, getting into your car and trying to
14 find a road that would take you there?
15 A. Yes. We got into our car and we took that one road. There was
16 no other way to go.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sorry to interrupt. Who was driving?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Novak was.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
20 MR. DI FAZIO:
21 Q. And did you have any success in the following days using this
22 method of getting into your car and trying to drive up there?
23 A. No, none.
24 Q. Why couldn't you get through?
25 A. The road was closed. They didn't let us through.
1 Q. And do I understand what you're saying is that the police had
2 roadblocks and they wouldn't let you through? Is that -- do I understand
3 that correctly, or someone else wouldn't let you through?
4 A. The police didn't let us through.
5 Q. Were you in touch with any other members of your family apart
6 from Novak in those first few days after you -- after the 21st of April?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who were you in touch with?
9 A. With Rade, with Mico.
10 Q. Did your brothers make any attempts to establish contact with
11 your parents; and if so, what attempts?
12 A. They tried the same as we had but they were not successful.
13 Q. What do you mean by that? They tried to drive up in cars as well
14 but were turned back? Do I understand you correctly?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Okay. Apart from the method of getting into a car and trying to
17 drive up there, was any other method adopted to try and make contact with
18 your parents?
19 A. We didn't keep trying. It just wasn't possible. We tried to go
20 by car but that was it.
21 Q. You've mentioned --
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, if Your Honours would just bear with me for
23 a moment.
24 Q. Did Rade, your brother Rade, have any Catholic Albanian friends
25 in early 1998?
1 A. Yes, he did, over in Djakovica.
2 Q. Did you -- are you aware of him enlisting the aid of any such
3 person to try and make contact with your parents?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What do you know about that? Can you tell the Trial Chamber what
6 your brother did?
7 A. He tried to send someone over to check if they were still in
8 their house.
9 Q. Okay. Do you know the name of this person whom he tried to send
10 over to check on the house?
11 A. Nuo Alakaj.
12 Q. Did you speak to Nuo Alakaj yourself or was it only Rade who had
13 contact with Nuo?
14 A. Just Rade.
15 Q. Were you ever present when Rade spoke with Nuo Alakaj about going
16 to see your parents?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did Rade ever tell you of any results of this attempt?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did he say to you?
21 A. He said when Nuo had gone there, they were no longer around.
22 They had taken them away by that time.
23 Q. Do you -- thinking back to the 21st of April, about how long
24 after that would you say that you found out that Rade had enlisted the
25 aid of Nuo Alakaj? About how long?
1 A. I don't know exactly.
2 Q. Did this method of using an agent or someone, a friend, to go and
3 try and find out about what had happened to your family, did any other
4 attempts occur using the same method, perhaps with different people, that
5 you're aware of?
6 A. Yes. My cousin went over to see a neighbour, Faza Haradinaj.
7 Q. Who is your cousin?
8 A. Mica.
9 Q. And what's Mica's surname?
10 A. Vlahovic.
11 Q. And did --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours would just bear with me.
13 What time would Your Honours want to take the break?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Within the next five minutes. If this would be a
15 suitable moment.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: It would.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break, Mr. Vlahovic. Yes,
18 Mr. Emmerson, does the witness need to stay for this?
19 MR. EMMERSON: Not necessarily.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out
21 of the courtroom?
22 We'll have a break for 20 minutes.
23 MR. EMMERSON: It simply relates to the arrangements over the
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Purely for the witness's comfort, I wonder if he
4 might be accompanied during the break.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The witness to be accompanied?
6 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly so.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that's ...
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, you do not give any reasons, and apart
10 from that, Mr. Emmerson, the practice is that the witnesses will spend
11 the break in the presence of someone working in the Victims --
12 MR. EMMERSON: In that case, I needn't -- that's exactly --
13 JUDGE ORIE: They're not free to leave the building or to
14 leave --
15 MR. EMMERSON: That's all I was seeking to clarify, Your Honours,
16 thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll resume at five minutes past 6.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
23 Q. You mentioned your cousin who you -- assisted you in making some
24 inquiries, and I think you said his name was -- just give us his name
25 again, please?
1 A. Miloica Vlahovic, the brother.
2 Q. What's the short -- what's the diminutive, the short version, of
3 Miloica Vlahovic? Miloica in particular?
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't catch the answer.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll repeat my question.
6 Q. Did anyone have a short version of his name? His friends, did
7 they call him Miloica or did they use a shortened nickname?
8 A. Mica.
9 Q. And where did this gentleman live?
10 A. In Ratis.
11 Q. And what was his job?
12 A. He was a teacher.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Excuse me. You said Miloica Vlahovic, the
14 brother, and you were asked about a cousin. Is he a brother or a cousin?
15 Could you clarify, please?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Brother.
17 MR. DI FAZIO:
18 Q. Earlier, just before the break, you were talking about an attempt
19 to enlist the aid of a gentleman named Faza, and you mentioned that a
20 cousin approached this man. What was the name of the cousin?
21 A. My brother sent Faza over.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours just give me a moment, I just want
23 to check the transcript, please.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Whilst that's done, I think Mr. Di Fazio may have
25 a gender problem. I don't think Faza is a woman -- I'm sorry, I don't
1 think Faza is a man; I think Faza is a woman.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm actually grateful for that, thank you. Yes.
3 Thank you to Defence counsel for that.
4 Q. Just before your -- the break, you said: "My cousin went over to
5 see a neighbour, Faza Haradinaj." I asked you: "Who was your cousin?"
6 You said: "Mica." And I asked: "What's Mica's surname?" And you said:
8 Now, do you have a cousin named Mica Vlahovic, or Mica Vlahovic?
9 A. No. That's my brother Mica, Miloica Vlahovic. That's the
11 Q. That's clear. Thank you. And did your brother go and make
12 inquiries of this person, this lady, Faza Haradinaj?
13 A. Yes. She lived in Djakovica but in the same village, and my
14 brother went there to speak to her, and then she went there to have a
16 Q. All right, thank you. That's clear enough. And were you there
17 when your brother spoke to Faza and asked her to carry out this task, or
18 is it something that your brother told you about?
19 A. No, my brother told me.
20 Q. Did you ever hear any -- if there were any results, whether Faza
21 made contact or whether she was able to get any news about your parents?
22 A. Yes. She told my brother that she'd been there. She had been to
23 the house and they were in the house at that time, but they weren't
24 allowed to leave their home or, indeed, to move about.
25 Q. Now -- and your brother told you this and that's Rade, I believe;
1 is that correct?
2 A. No, Mica.
3 Q. Thank you. I'm grateful to you for that correction.
4 Just thinking back now, I know it's a long time, but have you got
5 any idea of just precisely how Mica reported this to you, in particular
6 what he said to you about them -- about them being in the house and not
7 being able to leave? What sort of words did he use, if you can remember?
8 If you can't, say so.
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Thank you for that. Are you aware of any other attempts to
11 establish contact with your parents through this method of using people
12 to go and speak to them?
13 A. No.
14 Q. All the people who your family enlisted to try and make contact
15 with your parents in their village, what ethnicity were they?
16 A. Albanians and Catholics.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Meaning also Albanians; no?
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
19 Q. Can you answer His Honour's question?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Please go on.
22 MR. DI FAZIO:
23 Q. Anyway, the result is that all of these efforts were fruitless,
24 and you never saw your parents alive again; correct?
25 A. No, we never saw them again.
1 Q. How old were your parents then?
2 A. My mother was about 58, and my father 53, or thereabouts.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to ask you some questions about your
4 brothers and their jobs.
5 Novak, you've told us, was a bus driver, I believe. How long had
6 he been doing that job as at early 1998?
7 A. I don't know exactly.
8 Q. Can you tell us this: Had he had that job all his life or was he
9 new to the job? He was a new bus -- a bus driver?
10 A. No. He started working as a driver back in 1991, I suppose.
11 Q. Had he ever worked as a policeman or a soldier, professional
13 A. No.
14 Q. What job did your brother Rade have?
15 A. Rade was with the police.
16 Q. And how long had he been a policeman?
17 A. Since 1990 or possibly 1991. I can't say.
18 Q. Was he doing that job in early 1998, and in particular in April
19 of 1998?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where was he stationed? Where was his day-to-day office or
22 reporting place?
23 A. Djakovica.
24 Q. Do you know what sort of policeman he was? Perhaps I should be a
25 little clearer about that. Policeman do all sorts of different jobs.
1 Some are investigators, some are detectives, some are clerks in offices.
2 What sort of job did your brother Rade do in the police?
3 A. Just a regular police officer.
4 Q. Uniformed?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did he continue doing that work throughout the rest of the year
7 after your parents disappeared, or after they were last seen alive by
8 your family?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the brother Miloica, what was his job?
11 A. He was a teacher.
12 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Zvonko Markovic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was his job in early 1998?
15 A. He worked with the post office. He was a postman.
16 Q. That's right. And where was he working in April -- I didn't get
17 that. Could you just repeat that, please?
18 A. In Streoce.
19 Q. Did he ever work in Rznic?
20 A. I don't know. I can't remember.
21 Q. Did he ever become a policeman or was he ever in the reserve
23 A. Not that I know of.
24 Q. Did you have any contact with him in 19 -- let me rephrase that.
25 After your parents were last seen alive by you and your family, did you
1 have any contact with Zvonko Markovic by any chance?
2 A. We saw each other sometimes.
3 Q. Where? Where did you see each other?
4 A. In Decani.
5 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Halil Sadikaj?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Salih Sadikaj?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you know the village of Dasinovac?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. About how far away is Dasinovac from your village?
12 A. Five or 6 kilometres.
13 Q. Do you know of a village in your area called Dashinoc, or
15 A. No.
16 Q. Does Dasinovac have any other name or is it known by any other
18 A. No.
19 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I think there may be some
20 misunderstanding here.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps about exactly how the name was
23 MR. EMMERSON: We know, it's a matter of geographical fact, that
24 Dashinoc is the Albanian name for Dasinovac.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We find that, of course, in the indictment and
1 you are using the two sometimes Dasinovac, although you usually refer to
2 the Albanian version of this village. Let's put it directly to the
4 Witness, the Chamber, until now has heard some evidence and has
5 seen maps in which it appears that Dasinovac, in Albanians, is called
6 Dashinoc. Is that something that sounds familiar to you?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dasinovac, yes, that does.
8 Dashinoc, no, that one doesn't.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Many villages in your area have names both in, could
10 I say, Serbo-Croat and in Albanian. Have you ever heard of an Albanian
11 name of the village of Dasinovac, so the Albanian equivalent of
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that any further examination,
15 although the distance, 5, 6, kilometres, but perhaps not as the crow
16 flies, but let's not make matters more complex. Counsel are invited to
17 refer to Dasinovac if they would have had the choice.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Q. In September of 1998, did you go to the village of Dasinovac?
21 A. No.
22 Q. In April of 1988 [sic] did you go there?
23 A. No.
24 Q. What about any other month between April and September? Did you
25 go to that village?
1 A. No, we didn't. One couldn't.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Then, Mr. Emmerson, you are the first one to cross-examine the
7 Mr. Vlahovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Emmerson. He's
8 the counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
9 Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
11 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, you told us just a few moments ago when you first
12 started giving evidence that you yourself have never served in any
13 reserve police force in 1997 or 1998; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you ever serve in any reserve police force at any time?
16 Pardon? I didn't catch your answer.
17 A. No.
18 Q. And your brother Novak, did he ever serve in any reserve police
19 force at any time?
20 A. Yes, but I don't know when.
21 Q. So he did, but you don't know when it was?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. Was it during the war?
24 A. I don't know exactly.
25 Q. Forgive me, but I thought you were just asked a question about
1 that by Mr. Di Fazio. We'll have to check the transcript for just a
3 MR. EMMERSON: I'm looking at page 88, line 12 -- lines 12 and
5 Q. "Have you ever worked as a policeman ..." You were asked by
6 Mr. Di Fazio about Novak: "Had he ever worked as a policeman or a
7 soldier, a professional soldier?" And you said: "No."
8 Did Novak work as a policeman or didn't he?
9 A. He was in the reserve force.
10 Q. And people in the reserve force, Mr. Vlahovic, they wore
11 uniforms, didn't they?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And they carried AK-47 automatic rifles, didn't they?
14 A. I don't know what you mean.
15 Q. They carried automatic weapons, didn't they? You know what an
16 automatic weapon is, don't you, Mr. Vlahovic?
17 A. Yes, they did, but I don't know what kind of weapons.
18 Q. Did you see your brother Novak with automatic weapons at any
19 time, or an automatic weapon at any time?
20 A. He had some weapons, but I don't know what kind.
21 Q. And Zvonko Markovic, what about him? You told us a moment ago,
22 as far as you knew, he was not in any reserve police force. That's not
23 true, is it, Mr. Vlahovic?
24 A. I don't know that he was. He used to work in Streoce as a
1 Q. He was your cousin, wasn't he?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Your families were quite close, weren't they?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You saw each other often, didn't you?
6 A. Not often.
7 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, correct me if I'm wrong, he has a brother, doesn't
8 he, Zvonko? Sorry, I didn't catch your answer. He has a brother,
9 doesn't he?
10 A. Yes, he does.
11 Q. What's his name?
12 A. Rade.
13 Q. And as far as you know, was Rade in the police of any kind?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Right. So let's just be clear about the situation. As far as
16 you're concerned, you did know that Novak was a reserve police officer;
18 A. I knew.
19 Q. But you did not know that Zvonko and Rade Markovic, your cousins,
20 were both reserve police officers?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Does it come as a surprise to you to learn that they both made
23 witness statements in which they acknowledge that they were reserve
24 police officers during this period of time? Does that come as a surprise
25 to you?
1 A. I don't know about that. I wasn't here.
2 Q. So it never came up in conversation in your family, that those
3 two cousins of yours were members of the reserve police?
4 A. Not in our family.
5 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, I'm just going to tell you what your brother has
6 just told us on oath about you. He says in his evidence: "I believe
7 that he," Goran, "was in the reserve police, too." He was asked: "Did
8 you see him in uniform and with a weapon?" And he said: "Most probably I
9 did." And then he was asked: "So do I have it right that of the four
10 brothers, you, Miloica, are the only one who wasn't in the police?" And
11 he said: "Yes."
12 Now, Mr. Vlahovic, were you in the police?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Can you imagine any reason why your brother would think you were?
15 A. I don't know. He may have been mistaken.
16 Q. How often were you seeing Miloica at this time?
17 A. I was in Montenegro and I saw him occasionally.
18 Q. Sorry, when were you in Montenegro?
19 A. In 1998 and in 1999.
20 Q. When did you leave in 1998, and when did you return to Kosovo?
21 A. I left, I think, in June 1998. I don't know the exact date.
22 Q. And when did you come back?
23 A. When we found our father in September, and then I left again.
24 Q. And is it your evidence that you were never in Kosovo between
25 June 1998 and September 1998?
1 A. No, I wasn't.
2 Q. And after September, 1998, were you in Kosovo then?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And were you in the police then, the reserve police?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And your brother Rade, you said he was a regular police officer.
7 What do you mean by "a regular police officer"? What is the distinction
8 between a regular police officer and some other kind of police officer?
9 A. He was working all the time. He was in active duty.
10 Q. Do you know what any kind of -- do you know of any kind of
11 special force in the police in that area at that time?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You're not aware of the police having any kind of paramilitary
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you heard of the PJP, Mr. Vlahovic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So your brother Rade, I suggest, was a paramilitary police
19 officer in the specialist unit called the PJP. Is that something you
20 didn't know?
21 A. I didn't know that.
22 Q. See, Mr. Vlahovic, I suggest that you were not only in Kosovo but
23 in Dashinoc at the beginning of September 1998, and that you were seen
24 there with your brothers taking part in the looting of Albanian houses
25 and the beating of an elderly gentleman called Shaban Sadikaj.
1 A. That's not true.
2 Q. And further, that in April 1999, you were seen standing outside
3 Decan Police Station when a convoy of Albanian refugees passed by and an
4 elderly gentleman from Dashinoc called Ahmet Sokolaj, Ahmet Sokolaj, was
5 pulled from the line, beaten and killed, and you were there, I suggest.
6 A. No, I wasn't there at all. It's not true.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, in one of your previous questions, you
8 referred to Dashinoc and --
9 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, Dasinovac. Dasinovac.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you could ask the witness whether his answer
11 would be the same --
12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- if you had located it in Dasinovac.
14 MR. EMMERSON:
15 Q. Did you hear about the incident when an old man from Dashinoc was
16 pulled from a convoy of refugees in Decan Police Station and beaten to
17 death by Serb paramilitaries? Did you hear about that incident?
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. Stanisa Radosevic, is he a friend of yours?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you know him at all?
22 A. I knew him by sight.
23 Q. Can I just ask you for a moment about the evidence you've given
24 about Nuo Alakaj, the Albanian Catholic, who had a conversation, you say,
25 with your brother Rade. I just want to be clear what your evidence is on
1 this. You told us, I think, before the break, you were asked about
2 Mr. Alakaj and you were asked: "Did you speak to him yourself or was it
3 only Rade who had contact with Nuo?" And you said: "Just Rade." And
4 you were asked: "Were you ever present when Rade spoke with Nuo Alakaj
5 about going to speak with your parents?" And you said: "No."
6 Is that right? Were you ever present when Rade spoke to Nuo
8 A. No, I wasn't when -- I wasn't present when Rade spoke to him.
9 Q. I'm just going to read to you a short passage from a statement
10 that you made and signed in July 2004. So I'm going to read it slowly so
11 that it can be translated to you, because these are words that you have
12 put your name to. You said:
13 "It was around July 1998 when I know that a Catholic Albanian
14 friend of Rade went to the village with the intention of getting our
15 parents out of the village but could not find them. I was with Rade when
16 his friend came back from Gornji Ratis and told us that he had asked
17 others in the village what had happened to our parents. The friend of
18 Rade said that he had been told by others in the village that they had
19 been taken away."
20 Do you understand what I've just read to you?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting, of
23 course, at this point, but I wonder if Mr. Emmerson has read the last
24 sentence of that paragraph. Oh, I certainly have. I certainly have.
25 Q. The last sentence of that paragraph says: "I do not know the
1 name of the Albanian friend of Rade." But in your proofing notes, that
2 is to say, when you were interviewed on videolink, you explained the name
3 of person you were referring to as Nuo Alakaj. We can check that if you
4 like but I've got the reference for it?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we can ask the witness. When you had an
6 interview with the investigators, as was just read to -- when you gave
7 that statement, did you have anyone else on your mind when you're talking
8 about the friend of Rade, anyone else than - let me find the name
9 again --
10 MR. EMMERSON: Nuo Alakaj.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- Nuo Alakaj. So when you gave that statement,
12 did you -- when you didn't say at that time the name, were you referring
13 to the person Nuo Alakaj?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then to whom were you referring? Were there two
16 different persons that were sent to find out about your parents?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And the other one was?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the name.
20 MR. EMMERSON:
21 Q. Sorry, let's be clear.
22 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, had you --
23 Q. You told us before the break about Faza Haradinaj and Nuo Alakaj,
24 and then Mr. Di Fazio asked you: "Were you aware of any other people
25 sent to Gornji Ratis to look for your parents," and you said: "No." You
1 told us in the clearest possible terms that the only people you were
2 aware of were Faza Haradinaj, who was an elderly lady; is that correct?
3 She's an elderly lady, isn't she, Mr. Vlahovic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And a Catholic Albanian called Nuo Alakaj?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are they, as you told us before the break, the only two people
8 you were aware of who had been sent to speak to your parents?
9 A. These are the ones that I know of. I don't know the name of this
11 Q. So why was it that you told us before the break that you didn't
12 know of any other attempts to send people to see your parents, Mr.
14 A. I was referring to the nameless one.
15 Q. So this man you're now describing, this Catholic Albanian friend
16 of Rade, this is a third person, is it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I see. And that individual you were present for when he came
19 back and spoke to your brother; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Why didn't you tell us about that before the break, Mr. Vlahovic?
22 A. I did mention the man.
23 Q. Well, we've all got the transcript to consider. Let's go back to
24 Nuo Alakaj, then. You say that Rade told you that Nuo Alakaj had gone to
25 the village and your parents were no longer around; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That they had been taken away by that time; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So Nuo Alakaj, who you hadn't heard speak, was saying exactly the
5 same thing as this other Catholic Albanian who you now say you had heard
6 speak; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Which one came first in time?
9 A. Nuo Alakaj was the first.
10 Q. Can you give us a physical description of Nuo Alakaj, please?
11 A. It's been a long time. He was an elderly man.
12 Q. And what about this other man that you're telling us about? What
13 did he look like?
14 A. He was also an elderly person.
15 Q. You see, your brother Miloica has given evidence here today that
16 Rade told him what Nuo Alakaj had said, and what Rade told Miloica was
17 that Nuo Alakaj had told him, wrongly, that your parents had been
18 released at Prilep and were free. Do you want to reconsider your
19 evidence on any of these matters, Mr. Vlahovic?
20 A. That's what I know. I don't know -- I don't know anything else.
21 Q. You're sure, are you, about what you told us Rade told you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So it would appear, wouldn't it, that Rade has said completely
24 the opposite to your brother from what he said to you about the same
1 A. I don't know. That's what he told me.
2 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, you and your brothers were heavily involved in
3 retributive violence against the Albanian population of Dashinoc in
4 September, weren't you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You were yourself a reserve police officer, as were all of your
7 brothers except Miloica. You were in uniform and armed with automatic
8 weapons, and you beat Albanians, didn't you?
9 A. No.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Those are my questions, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.
12 Mr. Guy-Smith, any need for cross-examination?
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey?
15 MR. HARVEY: No, thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, any need to re-examine the witness?
17 MR. DI FAZIO: No, Your Honours.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vlahovic, the parties have no further questions
20 for you. The Bench have no further questions for you either. Therefore,
21 this concludes your testimony before this court. I'd like to thank you
22 that you have come the far journey and that you've answered the questions
23 of the parties.
24 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours, the next witness in line is a
4 witness who's been given, on the provisional list, a number 49. I'm so
5 sorry, that is his pseudonym, 49.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 (redacted) None has been
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: That is correct, if Your Honours please. My
15 colleagues have been dealing with this issue, and (redacted) is, indeed, the
16 next witness in line. I wonder, Your Honours, if -- and I understand that
17 there's -- the witness has arrived here in The Hague. I wonder if Your
18 Honours would be minded to defer the question of calling him until
19 tomorrow. It's now ten to 7.00, and I need to confer with my colleagues
20 concerning the provision of the statement to the Defence and ultimately
21 to you, if that's going to be possible. I don't know what further
22 developments have occurred during the day because I've been involved here
23 in court. I'm unable to report to you at this stage, and I think that
24 the Prosecution will be in a position to report to you on that issue.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: But not at this moment.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand that Mr. Emmerson expressed
3 concerns not only about not having had an opportunity to properly prepare
4 for the witness to be called now, eight minutes to 7.00, but also about
6 Is that correctly understood?
7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. The Prosecution has not fulfilled the
8 promise that its made in respect to this witness, and we're in a position
9 where, as I understand Mr. Di Fazio, there may even be a question about
10 whether he's going to be called tomorrow.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: That is so.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Well, if that's right, we're in a position where
13 it's 7.00 at night, I have no idea what witness it is I am to
14 cross-examine tomorrow.
15 And can I indicate that the witnesses that follow in the
16 Prosecution's list are Witness number 6 in the order of testimony - and
17 there's no witness protection issues here - Dragoslav Stojanovic; and 7,
18 Mijat Stojanovic. No proofing notes have been served in respect of
19 either of those witnesses either.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, I don't believe
22 there are any proofing notes in existence in relation to the Stojanovics.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is that because they -- you do not intend to proof
24 them or that no notes were made of any proofing sessions until now?
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Up until I came back into court, I was -- my
1 understanding was that there were no proofing notes in existence in
2 relation to those -- to the Stojanovics.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That still doesn't answer my question. My question
4 was: Is it that they do not exist because you do not intend to proof,
5 and of course prior to proofing, there will be no proofing notes; or that
6 there have been proofing sessions but no proofing sessions were made or
8 MR. DI FAZIO: I can certainly tell you that -- well, I believe
9 up until I last came into court that there had been no proofing sessions
10 and no proofing notes had been finalised. As to the intention to proof
11 the witness, as I stand here, I simply don't know. I understood that
12 that may not happen, but the matter was remaining with Mr. Re.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, I can -- I'm
15 happy to report to you that I can inform you that there have been no --
16 there has been no proofing of Stojanovic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're talking about Stojanovic.
18 Let me go back to Witness 49. We received a message addressed to
19 Mr. Re and, from what we understand, copied to Emmerson, Dixon, Troop,
20 Rohan, Guy-Smith, Park, Aksenova, Trapani, Willemsen, van den Berge,
21 Harvey, and the Haradinaj Trial Support, and it starts ...
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Which announces that: "Attached are the proofing
24 notes, the witness statement, and an English language of a draft
25 consolidated statement." Do I then understand that your problem is that
1 you didn't expect the draft but a signed final version of --
2 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Your Honour, I think, recalls the position
3 that Mr. Re has been advocating that witnesses -- witnesses would be
4 shown a statement in a language they understood, given an opportunity to
5 correct it and to sign it. That is the proposal that the Prosecution
6 committed to paper in a document that was filed this morning. It was
7 also a proposal that was specifically made in respect of this witness.
8 And, indeed, when those documents were supplied to us, they were
9 supplied to us on the understanding that by the end of the day, that day,
10 we would have an Albanian signed witness statement. And on that
11 understanding, the Defence raised no objections to the material at all
12 being supplied to the Trial Chamber, and so that we could be working from
13 a common pool of materials.
14 Nothing further has happened since then, and I don't know when
15 Mr. Di Fazio says there's an issue about whether this witness is going to
16 be called at all tomorrow, that is an issue which is solely contingent
17 upon the fact that this document has not yet been signed or whether there
18 are other concerns.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Di Fazio, we now have -- we know that, of course, information
21 that was sent yesterday, we know that there's a draft consolidated
22 statement. What caused the failure to send a finalised and signed
23 statement to the Defence?
24 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand the final stage of getting the
25 signature on the document has not been achieved.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it would not be proper for the Chamber
2 to ask at this moment why it has not been achieved. There could be a
3 hundred reasons, some of them perhaps very varying; others perhaps very
5 MR. EMMERSON: Can I simply inquire whether the Prosecution
6 proposes to call this witness tomorrow or not?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.
8 MR. EMMERSON: We intend to -- yes, we intend to call him and get
9 him to this courtroom, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I think what we need at this very moment is
11 that the Prosecution --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: -- whether that would then lead to testimony is a
15 matter that I can't assure you about and I can't assure the Defence. So
16 I can tell you this: Yes, we've reached the stage of a draft statement.
17 We have not reached the stage of affixing of a signature to that draft
18 statement. Yes, it is the intention of the Prosecution to bring the
19 witness to court, and beyond that I simply don't have any more
21 JUDGE ORIE: It will be a situation I have not met before in this
22 Tribunal, that the witness is called and then not examined. But, okay --
23 MR. DI FAZIO: It is unusual, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It is a bit mysterious. I think it would be
25 inappropriate at this moment to ask -- further inquire with Mr. Di Fazio
1 what happens, because it's his witness. He'll prepare for the
2 testimony --
3 MR. EMMERSON: May I make one matter absolutely plain: We would
4 not be prepared, with respect, unless directed to do so to countenance
5 the calling of the following witnesses before the provision of any
6 proofing notes, if there are to be any. If there is to be no proofing
7 session, then without notice, we're not going to find ourselves in a
8 position to conduct cross-examination of those witnesses tomorrow. But,
9 of course, that wouldn't preclude them being called - at least the first
10 of them - being called to give evidence in chief.
11 May I also raise one other matter. Your Honours have received
12 now two sets of written submissions, one from the Defence and one from
13 the Prosecution, on the procedure to be followed. Perhaps now is not an
14 ideal time to be examining the Prosecution's proposal, but nonetheless
15 there are statements both of fact and of law in the Prosecution's written
16 document which we saw this morning which require correction. If Your
17 Honours are of the view, having seen the sets of pleadings that you've
18 already received, that you have enough information and argument before
19 you to reach a decision, then obviously it's unnecessary for us to
20 address further written arguments to you; but if it would assist the
21 Bench in any way to have a further round of written pleadings, there are
22 matters which require correction in the Prosecution's submissions.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Have you considered further oral pleadings?
24 MR. EMMERSON: I'm very happy to deal with it as a matter of oral
1 JUDGE ORIE: Because we might have additional time tomorrow in
2 the afternoon. It's not for certain that --
3 MR. EMMERSON: I'm very happy to deal with this in the course of
4 oral argument.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll further -- let me see. It's unclear
6 whether Witness 49 will be called and, if called, give testimony. It is
7 unclear whether the draft consolidated statement given to the Defence is
8 a document which assists in any way in the preparation of
9 cross-examination, because it's uncertain whether it is the document. Of
10 course, I take it that you've read it. I must say, I have not read it
11 yet. I can imagine -- but there's also the issue of risk of waste of
12 time, that of course if only two or three words would be changed once we
13 have a signed document, then of course the -- for preparation, it
14 would --
15 MR. DI FAZIO: It I may assist, I don't think that's going to be
16 a problem. That's not really the problem. It's not a question of
18 MR. EMMERSON: And if the witness is not prepared to put their
19 name to the document and accept it as theirs, then its usefulness in
20 cross-examination is obviously very substantially diminished.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, is there -- another matter is, is there
22 an audio-recording of the proofing session of this witness?
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, there is.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It does exist.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe it does, yes.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll finish just in one or two seconds. But I'd
4 like to go into private session for a minute.
5 [Private session]
11 Page 1772 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 We stand adjourned until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00,
24 courtroom I.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd day of
2 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.