1 Monday, 26 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
7 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Mr. Stojanovic, I'd like to remind you that you are still bound
10 by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your
12 Mr. Re, are you ready to continue the examination-in-chief of the
14 MR. RE: Yes, I am.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
16 WITNESS: DRAGOSLAV STOJANOVIC [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examination by Mr. Re: [Continued]
19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 A. Good afternoon.
21 Q. Before --
22 A. Just a minute, please. I have to apologise. What I'm receiving
23 is the Albanian channel.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist the witness?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right now.
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. Before we go on to further, I just want to ask you to clarify a
3 few things from Friday afternoon, and one of them is that you mentioned
4 that, page 84 of the transcript, on the day that there was fighting at
5 Ramush Haradinaj's house on the 24th of March, 1998, there was a police
6 commander who told you it was unsafe to remain there because
7 Ramush Haradinaj and his group were armed and anything could happen.
8 I just want to ask you: Which police organisation was that
9 police commander from?
10 A. I really can't say. There were a lot of police around;
11 therefore, I didn't know that particular one. All I saw was certain
12 ranks displayed on his epaulette.
13 Q. Another point I wish to clarify was you told the Court on Friday
14 about --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, from the answer I take it the witness
16 misunderstood the question. He says: "I didn't know that particular
17 one," whereas I think you were not asking about the identity of the
18 police officer but what organisation the police officer was in.
19 MR. RE: If it's not clear to Your Honours, I will clarify it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, are you saying that you did not know which police
23 organisation the commander was from, or you did not know him personally,
24 or both?
25 A. Neither.
1 Q. You also testified on Friday about an incident that happened on
2 the road to Gllogjan before the March 24th fighting at the Haradinaj
3 house when some armed men stopped you on the road. I just want you to
4 clarify this: What were they wearing?
5 A. They were in camouflage with black Balaclavas, a slit for the
6 eyes and for the mouth.
7 Q. Can you just describe a little bit more fully what you mean by
9 A. Camouflage, in all sort of colours.
10 Q. You mean camouflage uniform?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. On Friday, this is at page 83 of the transcript, you mentioned a
13 Haxhija Haradinaj. Who is Haxhija Haradinaj?
14 A. This is the late uncle of Ramush Haradinaj. He owned a house
15 just next to his, a stone's-throw away, a brand new house, and the other
16 was 20 or 30 years old and that was adjacent to my own land.
17 Q. You also mentioned a person called Kamil Haradinaj. Who is
18 Kamil Haradinaj?
19 A. Qamil Haradinaj. This was his cousin, the son of Haxhija.
20 Q. On Friday when we stopped, on Friday evening, you were telling
21 the Trial Chamber about being brought to what you described as KLA
22 headquarters, and Besnik Haradinaj questioning you in an upstairs room.
23 One of the things you said that he said to you was: "He was taunting me,
24 trying to rile me, trying to abuse me. How many policemen were there in
25 Decani, why was I in the village, why didn't I apply for a permit from
1 them, that sort of thing."
2 When you said "why was I in the village," which is the question I
3 think he was asking you, what village were you referring to?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You said he said to you --
6 A. The village, I was referring to Dubrava, my village, my house.
7 He was asking why didn't I ask for a permit from them to go, and there's
8 another thing. Why didn't we join them, that is what he said, all sorts
9 of questions that he was asking with the explicit purpose of taunting me.
10 Q. What did you understand him to mean when he said -- when he asked
11 you why you hadn't asked for a permit from them to go?
12 A. Because they thought they were the authority in the area. As of
13 the day of the killing, as far as I know, the police were no longer
14 allowed inside the area.
15 Q. Which killing are you referring to there?
16 A. Otovic's killing, Miodrag Otovic, when he was killed.
17 Q. How do you know the police were no longer allowed there from that
18 day onwards?
19 A. Because I heard people talk about this around Decani, where I
21 Q. What were they saying?
22 A. That this was a dangerous thing, that it was dangerous to go
23 there, it was difficult to go to Rznici where the station was, that sort
24 of thing.
25 Q. What sort of people were saying that?
1 A. People were saying that sort of thing, the local residents were.
2 Q. Serb or Albanian?
3 A. Serbs for the most part.
4 Q. I want to ask you to clarify some of the things about the
5 interrogation that you underwent at Smajl Haradinaj's house on the 18th
6 of April, 1998, and you were telling the Trial Chamber on Friday about
7 Besnik Haradinaj interrogating you in an upstairs room. Was anyone else
8 present when he was interrogating you, apart from him and you?
9 A. At the outset when they first brought us there, Ramush's brother
10 Daut was there and Zeqir Nimonaj as well. After a brief while, after not
11 that long, they went down the stairs and then he asked me whether I felt
12 like having some coffee, and I said yes. And he sent someone down to get
13 some, and then he and I remained in this small room, 2 by 3 or 3 by 3.
14 It was a small room anyway.
15 Q. You described on Friday drinking coffee. You said: "I started
16 choking and I pleaded with him to open the window. He opened the door
17 and I could no longer hold it back. They chucked me out of the room. I
18 was losing consciousness and choking all the time."
19 It may be -- it was a little bit unclear as to who the "they" is.
20 Who is the "they" who chucked you out of the room?
21 A. He, he, he, he. And just a minute. It wasn't that I was
22 choking. I had a problem with my breathing, but it wasn't on account of
23 the coffee.
24 Q. What was --
25 A. I started to suffocate, to all practical intents. I was left
1 with no oxygen whatsoever.
2 Q. Why was that? What had happened to you to cause this?
3 A. We were drinking coffee, and the second or third sip that I took,
4 my breathing was interrupted. I was thinking there for a while that they
5 had poisoned me. I asked him to open the window because there was no
6 air, I couldn't breathe properly. Then I asked him to open the door and
7 he did. He took me outside into the corridor, where I eventually fell
8 down, that narrow corridor just outside the door.
9 Q. Did you have any documents with you when you went to
10 Smajl Haradinaj's place?
11 A. I did back at my place. It was in my garden, in my front yard,
12 that they took the documents off me. When they took us outside the house
13 and beat us, they ID'd us, although they knew very well who we were.
14 They took my driver's licence away, the traffic licence belonging to my
15 Mazda car, my military booklet, my health registration booklet, health
16 insurance booklet, as well as both sets of keys, the ones to my car and
17 to the school building since I kept those, too. And I kept them
18 together, both sets, the car keys and the school keys, I kept them on the
19 same ring. The keys to the school building were returned to me by them
20 that afternoon, but they kept all the rest.
21 Q. Just to be clear, this was before --
22 A. The keys to the school building, the keys to the school building
23 were the ones that they eventually returned, that particular set.
24 Q. To be clear on this, this happened before you went to
25 Smajl Haradinaj's house or afterwards?
1 A. Yes, yes, yes. It was in my front yard.
2 Q. Before or after you went to Smajl Haradinaj's place?
3 A. Before, before, before, in my front yard. After the front yard,
4 they took me to Smajl Haradinaj's house.
5 Q. When you were being interrogated in the upstairs room, where was
6 Veselin and Mijat?
7 A. In that narrow corridor. They were being guarded by their own
8 soldiers, sort of.
9 Q. How do you know they were there?
10 A. When the door was opened, I saw them right there, and they were
11 the ones who had brought us all together as a group to that corridor.
12 Q. Is the corridor on the top floor or the bottom floor?
13 A. The top floor, just next to the room. Here is the corridor and
14 there is the room, and there's a room in that corridor -- there's a door
15 in that corridor that leads to that small room.
16 Q. Did you hear them, Veselin and Mijat, when you were in the room
17 being interrogated?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Could you hear whether anything was happening to them at all?
20 A. No, not for as long as I was being interrogated. Later on,
21 that's different, then I did.
22 Q. Let's go back to when you were -- excuse me --
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: While we are waiting, can you explain a little
24 more what "later on" -- you said: "That's different, then I did," what
25 you then saw or heard. Do you remember that question? That was dealing
1 with Veselin and Mijat.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard them beat them. First,
3 they brought Veselin inside, I heard them beat him, and I heard him moan
4 and cry for help.
5 There is one thing that I forgot to tell you. When I came in,
6 there was a club on the table, a tripartite club, as it were. It had a
7 leather handle, it had some sort of a spring, and then a continuation
8 with some sort of a ball at the end, which is an implement that they
9 obviously used to beat them, first Veselin and then subsequently Mijat.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
11 Mr. Re.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. Let's just go back for a moment to what happened when you lost --
14 when you lost consciousness.
15 A. I don't remember exactly when I lost consciousness, but when I
16 came to again Veselin and Mijat were still beside me. I heard them
17 massage me and I woke up. They were trying mouth-to-mouth, and they were
18 trying that sort of thing. I must say that I lost consciousness several
19 times, not just that once, it happened several times.
20 Q. When did you lose consciousness in relation to the incident you
21 just described to Judge Hoepfel, which was your hearing them beating
22 Veselin and Mijat?
23 A. After I came to, after I came to, the first time I came to. When
24 I first lost consciousness, they were the ones who massaged me back to
25 life and gave me mouth-to-mouth respiration, and then I lost
1 consciousness again, and then I came to without anyone's help at all, and
2 it was then that I heard them, because later on there was no one left
3 there to help me, so I came to naturally, you might say.
4 Q. Which -- which soldiers were there at the time?
5 A. Inside there was Zeqir, he was the loudest; and Daut; and Besnik,
6 as well. I'm not sure if his name was Besnik. I knew that he was
7 Rasim's son, the uncle and brother of the accused Ramush.
8 Q. You've just mentioned Ramush, did you see him there at all?
9 A. Yes, but not in that room. Ramush came by later in the course of
10 that day with five or six other soldiers accompanying him. I was lying
11 on the floor in that corridor, since I was unable to move. I wasn't
12 allowed to move either. He came by with five or six of his soldiers,
13 they were his escort, I suppose, I don't know. He came in, he shoved me
14 with his leg, and he said, Hello neighbour, do you recognise me? I said,
15 No, I don't, and then he kicked me in the back saying that I would
16 eventually learn who he was.
17 Q. How hard did he kick you?
18 A. Well, it seemed hard enough to me. At the time it felt hard
19 enough since he was wearing those military boots.
20 Q. What else was he wearing?
21 A. Camouflage bottoms and some sort of a jumper on top. In his
22 right hand, he was carrying a short automatic rifle.
23 Q. Who were the five or six soldiers accompanying him, did you
24 recognise any of them?
25 A. No, no, I was prone and was hardly able to have a proper look.
1 The more I looked, the worse I felt.
2 Q. Were you injured as a result of his kicking you in the back?
3 A. I don't know. I don't know. Later when I underwent surgery, I'm
4 not sure what the doctors found.
5 Q. How did the other soldiers there present react when
6 Ramush Haradinaj came in?
7 A. They greeted him, the ones who were watching me. Sometimes there
8 were more of them, four or five, but sometimes there would only be one or
9 two left, depending.
10 Q. How did they react or relate to him or his presence?
11 A. When he came by, they would greet him; that was all.
12 Q. Do you remember if they called him anything?
13 A. Not at the time. They just greeted him with their fists, you
14 know, that sort of greeting. He came in -- because off that corridor
15 there is a door leading to that guest-room that I told you about, the --
16 the corridor is no more than 2 metres long. It's a very small one.
17 Q. Did anyone appear to be in charge of the soldiers there?
18 A. He seemed to be the one in charge.
19 Q. What gave you the impression that Ramush Haradinaj was in charge?
20 A. I saw them greet him, and from the outset they were saying that
21 he was the commander. So that went a long way in terms of convincing me
22 that this was, in fact, the case.
23 Q. What do you mean "from the outset they were saying he was the
25 A. From the time that the story started circulating that he was the
1 commander -- I can't say because I hadn't seem him for quite a long time
2 until, or rather, before that day. Ever since those statements that they
3 had made to the police, that he and the 24 that he was armed and was the
4 commander, and then that evening what I heard when Otovic was attacked
5 and killed, that evening or the next day -- they showed this on TV, the
6 arms, the weapons that were seized, some uniforms, that sort of thing.
7 So that struck me as some sort of confirmation of what they had been
8 saying all along.
9 Q. A few moments ago, you told the Trial Chamber that he came in, he
10 shoved me with his leg, and he said, Hello, neighbour, do you recognise
11 me? And then you said, No, I don't, and then he kicked you in the back.
12 Did you, in fact, recognise him when he came in?
13 A. Yes, yes, I knew him well.
14 Q. Why did you say, No, I don't recognise you, when he asked you if
15 you did?
16 A. Because virtually we were one of the first to be arrested or
17 captured in the area. It was for fear of saying that I knew him, it was
18 for fear of getting killed, otherwise one of us could later have gone on
19 to the police and told them about it or something. One thing I must say,
20 he wasn't the only one to ask me at the time. His brother -- his cousins
21 came over, too, Padram [phoen], Smajl's son, who wore glasses and was
22 wearing civilian clothes, small glasses with square frames. And he came
23 to ask me, Neighbour, do you recognise me? I didn't answer any of them.
24 Naim, Smajl's elder son, had round-rimmed glasses and he asked me the
25 same thing, Neighbour, do you know me? And I said no to each and every
1 one of them.
2 And then the son of Mustafa, he had been abroad quite a long
3 time, he came over that day and asked me the same question. I gave the
4 same answer to everyone, No, I don't know you.
5 Q. You said: "It was for fear of saying that I knew him, it was for
6 fear of getting killed."
7 Why did you think if you said you didn't know him that you would
8 be okay?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But why?
11 A. Just like that, just the sort of thing you'd expect, you know,
12 when you don't know someone. I was just sort of hoping that they would
13 just let us know.
14 Q. What was your psychological state when Ramush Haradinaj shoved
15 you and kicked you in the back? How were you feeling?
16 A. As for moving about, well, I wasn't able to. Mentally, not too
17 bad actually. Since you see that I'm able to remember every tiny detail,
18 that means I wasn't feeling too bad after all.
19 Q. What about your physical injuries at that point, when he kicked
20 you, what were they?
21 A. In addition to having blood on my face from the beatings, I
22 didn't actually have any open wounds. As for internal injuries, my
23 pancreas was ruptured, my stomach in two different places, the colon, the
24 stomach walls were crushed. You might say large-scale internal injuries,
25 a whole lot of pain, enormous pain, and this feeling of suffocation.
1 Q. Had you already sustained those injuries at the point when
2 Ramush Haradinaj kicked you, or did you sustain those injuries later, or
3 can't you say?
4 A. It must have been before.
5 Q. Where were Veselin and Mijat when Ramush Haradinaj kicked you in
6 the back?
7 A. In that room being beaten, the small room.
8 Q. Was that in the same room you were in?
9 A. No, no, the small one. It's different. I was lying down on the
10 floor in the corridor all the time, that whole day almost until we were
11 released. And they were being beaten and mistreated in that small room.
12 Q. How did you know they were being beaten and mistreated in that
13 small room?
14 A. Because where I was lying, it was just next to that door. It's a
15 simple wooden door. I could hear their screams. I could hear Zeqir and
16 Daut shouting at them, all three of them, and abusing them, and I knew
17 all those three lads, we were together day in and day out, I was familiar
18 with their voices.
19 Q. And what happened after Ramush Haradinaj kicked you in the back
20 and asked you if you recognised him and you said you didn't, what
21 happened then?
22 A. He went into that small guest-room -- you mean, what happened to
23 me? Is that what you mean?
24 Q. What happened in that house that you saw, both to you and your
25 brother and cousin? Just tell the Court what you saw and heard.
1 A. Can you please clarify the question.
2 Q. You said: "Ramush Haradinaj went into the small guest-room," was
3 that the room in which your brother and cousin were?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you see what --
6 A. No, no, no. That was in a different room, the small room. The
7 guest-room was the larger one, and they were being kept in that small
9 Q. Well, what happened after -- after your encounter with
10 Ramush Haradinaj?
11 A. Well, I continued to lie on the floor until a moment later on
12 when another one came by. They called him the Russian, perhaps because
13 he was blond. I didn't know him. He walked down the corridor and kicked
14 me several times very severely. He held a pipe in his hand, a sewer pipe
15 or something like that, and used that to crack me over the shoulders and
16 over the forehead. There was blood on my head. He was abusing me and
17 shouting at me, What we're doing to you is nothing. Do you know what the
18 police are doing to our lads? He beat me black and blue and just left.
19 Q. Can you just describe in more detail what you mean by he beat you
20 black and blue. What did he do to you?
21 A. He kicked me and hit me with that pipe, some sort of a sewer pipe
22 made of metal must have been about a metre long. I was on the floor -- I
23 was on the floor all the time because I was unable to stand up, so he hit
24 me on the stomach and wherever he could.
25 Q. You said before that you lost consciousness a few times. Did you
1 lose consciousness as a result of the Russian mistreating you like that?
2 A. It was after that.
3 Q. What else, if anything, did you see happen to --
4 A. Just a minute, please, let me add something. I was just about to
5 vomit or was already vomiting when he came by. That's what I'm saying.
6 I was down on the floor starting to vomit. There was one of those
7 soldiers, they had some sort of a blue bucket there, and he gave it to me
8 to vomit to.
9 In the corridor, next to my head, there were three or four crates
10 full of ammunition. Those were open, and there was one with no
11 ammunition in it. And one of them came over to beat me and took that
12 bucket away from me saying, Don't dirty this bucket. And then what he
13 replaced it with was the one empty crate where there was no ammunition in
14 it for me to vomit into.
15 Q. And what happened then?
16 A. I vomited blood. He left. I vomited blood, and that -- quite
17 soon after that --
18 [French on English channel]
19 A. -- so this happened in a very short time.
20 Q. What happened after you vomited blood?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, we had French for a moment on the English
22 channel, and from what I heard in French we have now not a complete
23 record in English.
24 Witness, could you please repeat your answer when you started
25 saying: "I vomited blood. He left. I vomited blood, and that ..."
1 Could you please repeat what you then said?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then nothing happened.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I heard in French something like the one who had --
4 who had hit me, but -- did you say that the one that had hit you, that he
5 left or what did you say at that time?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He left.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber what happened after you
11 vomited blood. What was the next thing that happened?
12 A. After that, one of those soldiers- I remember this quite clearly-
13 his name was Dervishaj -- just a moment, let me try and remember his
14 first name. I know his last name was Dervishaj, I knew his first name
15 but now I can't recall what his name was. He was there guarding me and
16 he told us -- he told me that we would be released. And then after that
17 Mijat and Vesko were taken out, Veselin, that's what I mean. I kept
18 losing consciousness, so the flow of events was interrupted for me
19 because I would come to and then I would again faint. At one point when
20 I came to, Veselin told me that Mijat had been taken out to fix the car
21 so that we could be released, so that we could take his Lada car.
22 Q. Where did you go?
23 A. We went to the front yard in front of the house to wash our
24 faces. There was a water-pump there in front of the house. We had to
25 wash the blood off our faces, ears, and so on.
1 Q. Is "we" you, your brother, and Veselin Stijovic, your cousin?
2 A. Yes, yes. Since in the meantime Mijat came back and said that
3 Lada was still out of order, that he hadn't been able to repair it. I
4 think he went there with Nasim Haradinaj.
5 Q. You washed the blood off your face, ears, and so on. Then what
7 A. So we went back to the guest-room. They carried me to the
8 guest-room. Ramush's father was there, Hilmija. He brought in a
9 Coka-cola and a Fanta, he offered me some to drink and I was still on the
10 floor -- actually, I was lying on the carpet that was there in the room.
11 So he offered me some Coke or some Fanta, I don't know, but it doesn't
12 really matter, but I was unable to drink so I didn't have any.
13 Q. Where were Veselin and Mijat when this was happening?
14 A. They were there, too.
15 Q. How long did you stay in that house for after you were offered a
17 A. Well, not long, maybe 20 minutes, half an hour. I don't know
18 exactly. But it was not such a long time.
19 Q. Where did you go then?
20 A. After that, Nasim told us -- we had a fig tree in our yard and
21 the winters in our village were quite cold, and my mother put some chaff
22 around this fig tree, some straw, and then Nasim asked us whether we had
23 hid some weapons in there. We told him that this was not the case, but
24 we had to go to our house together with him and another soldier to remove
25 this straw so that they could see that there was -- there were no weapons
1 hidden there, that this was just what it was, a fig tree.
2 Q. How long were you at your house for?
3 A. Just a moment. I neglected to tell you how we actually got to
4 the house. We walked there, first to Xhemajl Mushak [phoen] house and
5 then another man came out of a house with a tractor. I don't know his
6 name, although I do know this person. I was unable to walk and Mijat and
7 Veselin had to carry me most of the way, one at one end and the other at
8 the other end, and then they stopped this guy with the tractor and they
9 put me on to this tractor in order to take me to the house, and they
10 walked behind us.
11 Q. And how long did you stay at your house for?
12 A. Well, not for a long time. This must have taken maybe 20 minutes
13 for this tree -- for the straw to be removed from the tree so that they
14 could see for themselves what it was. Then they went into the house to
15 cut strips from the curtain to tie our eyes. Kika Mijat had to help them
16 do that, and I was in the yard with Veselin. And while we were standing
17 there at the gate an Ascona car came by. They stopped it. I don't know
18 whether it was Nasim or the other guy who actually did it. I can't
19 remember that. This other guy that I didn't know -- so they stopped this
20 car. There were some soldiers in this Ascona car. They handed him the
21 keys and they continued to Glodjane on foot. And after he bound us- my
22 hands were not tied, only Mijat's and Veselin's- but we all had our -- we
23 were all blindfolded. So they put us in this Ascona car. The two of
24 them sat in the front and the three of us were in the back.
25 Q. Where did they take you to?
1 A. We went to Gramocina [phoen] and en route they stopped several
2 times. They talked to some people, asking them what the situation was,
3 this kind of conversation generally, Hi, lads, what's the situation? Are
4 there any problems? Did the police come, and so on. And they would say,
5 No. And at one point one of them asked them, Why are you letting them
6 go? And Nasim said, These lads are good. They're good boys. And then
7 we went on to Babaloc. So we took the new road from Dubrava to Babaloc.
8 Near the refugee camp where Serbs from Albania were, the refugees
9 from Albania, the state authorities built houses -- houses for them
10 there. When we approached this area, Nasim told us that we should
11 continue forward and that we should not look back. He said, If you look
12 back, I will shoot you. The two brothers carried me, and when -- then
13 they turned away and walked briskly back. My brother left me with
14 Veselin, and then he ran to get some help from the refugees. One of them
15 came in a car. They put me in this car and took me to the health centre
16 in Decani.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you earlier said Kika Mijat had to
18 help them to do that, that was cutting off the strips of the --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's his nickname used by his
20 family. We called him Kika.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear. Thank you.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And I wanted to ask what kind of car were you
24 speaking of, an Ascona car --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ascona, it's an old car --
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This Opel Ascona? I know this model. And how
2 did you see that when -- you were blindfolded you said?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, they stopped the Ascona
4 before they blindfolded us. So I saw them stop the car in front of my
5 gate. The soldiers went go on to Glodjane on foot, they then blindfolded
6 us and put us in the car.
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
8 MR. RE:
9 Q. Who was controlling Babaloc at the time?
10 A. The Siptars.
11 Q. You mean the Albanian --
12 A. Albanians, yes.
13 Q. And you gave evidence earlier that Ramush Haradinaj had come to
14 Smajl Haradinaj's house. How long was he there for?
15 A. Well, he went into the guest-room, and I didn't see him leave to
16 pass me by, but there was another exit from the guest-room leading to the
17 road itself. There was a staircase that opened directly on to the road.
18 Q. Do you know how long he was there for?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You just said a moment ago you went to the health centre in
21 Decani. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber where you went and what
22 treatment you got for your injuries, starting with the health centre in
23 Decani, but pausing.
24 A. Well, in Decani we were received by a doctor. I was given a
25 shot - I don't know what kind of a shot it was - and he immediately said
1 that I should be taken to Pec. I was taken there by a civilian vehicle.
2 This was a small health centre. They put me in a small civilian car, and
3 they took me to the Pec hospital, where they X-rayed me. And I was
4 transferred, it was an emergency, to the hospital in Pristina.
5 Q. Was it the same day that you were transferred to the hospital in
7 A. The same day. It all happened in a span of maybe two, three,
8 four hours.
9 Q. How did you get to the hospital in Pristina?
10 A. I was taken there in an ambulance from Pec. This was an
11 ambulance of the Pec hospital that was used to transport me to the
12 hospital in Pristina.
13 Q. And what treatment did you receive at the hospital in Pristina?
14 A. I underwent surgery. I was hospitalised for 28 days. I really
15 started missing my family, and I asked the doctor, the surgeon who
16 operated on me, to ask -- to let me see my family. It was a Friday, and
17 he actually released me on a Friday. I went to Decani to the huts where
18 we lived at the time.
19 I was supposed to return to the hospital on Monday, and on Monday
20 when my family asked me - I couldn't move, you have to know that - when
21 they asked whether the Pristina route was safe and the police told them
22 that the route from Pristina to Pec was actually blocked and that we
23 couldn't move.
24 Q. Okay. Mr. Stojanovic, while we're coming to that, I just want
25 to --
1 MR. RE: Can you please display Exhibit 65 ter 863, can you
2 please display it in Serbian for the witness?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be exhibit number P33,
5 marked for identification.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. I'm going to show you a discharge sheet with case history from
9 Pristina hospital dated the 6th of October, 2005, referring to your being
10 in hospital from the 18th of April --
11 A. Just a moment. I never did get my discharge papers, so I don't
12 actually have it.
13 Q. No, but if you just wait for a moment, you'll see them on the
14 screen in front of you, referring to your stay from the 18th of April,
15 1998, to the 15th of May, 1998.
16 MR. RE: Can you just make that larger for us, if possible?
17 Q. Okay. Does that describe the injuries you received and the
18 operation you underwent?
19 A. Yes, it does, but I can't read everything. You would have to
20 scroll down. I don't know whether this is actually the end of the
21 document or not. And, in fact, I'm not an expert in medicine, so ...
22 Q. It is referring to you, isn't it? That's my question.
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. When you went to the hospital, who -- did the doctors take a --
25 what's called a history from you; that is, did they ask you what had
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. It says here that the: "Patient was attacked on his own
4 door-step in Metohija by terrorists. They hit him with a rifle-butt and
5 kicked him. He spent 12 hours in their prison, and he was taken to a
6 hospital in Pec."
7 What I want to ask you is this: Do you remember whether it was
8 you who told the staff at the hospital or whether someone else did?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Was it -- how long did you actually spend in the custody of these
11 people from the time in the morning between 8.00 and 9.00 until the time
12 you were released and blindfolded?
13 A. Well, from 8.00 or 9.00 until 4.00 or 5.00, I think that was the
14 time when it actually ended.
15 Q. Now, in the medical report, it said that: "There was a difficult
16 post-operative recovery. The wound healed but became extensively
17 infected. The suture of the duodenum remained in place, so the patient
18 quickly recovered despite the infection in the wound."
19 Did you sustain any lasting injuries as a result of what happened
20 to you on that day?
21 A. Well, what can I tell you? All the doctors that I -- that I've
22 seen always asked me for this document for Pristina, although I have not
23 been able to get it. I've tried obtaining this document through various
24 humanitarian organisations when we moved, but I couldn't get this
25 document, and the examinations never revealed anything. I never had this
1 piece of paper that I could show to a doctor because I can't explain to a
2 doctor what the situation -- what happened to me, what kind of injuries I
3 sustained. But I do have consequences, and if I were to show you what my
4 abdomen looks like, I think you would be -- you would see for yourself.
5 Q. What I want you to tell the Trial Chamber is what medical
6 treatment you've received since then and whether you still -- whether you
7 suffered any lasting injury; and if so, for how long? So, firstly, tell
8 the Trial Chamber about any medical treatment after you were released
9 from hospital.
10 A. For six months I had to go to the health centre in Decani to have
11 my wounds dressed, because the wound was weeping all the time and I had
12 to go there three times a day to have my wound re-bandaged there in the
13 health centre in Decani. The situation there was very bad; there were
14 just two or three nurses and a doctor who was not a specialist in this
15 area. But because there was this war going on, I had to go there; I had
16 no other choice.
17 Q. And after those six months, what happened then?
18 A. The wound healed, it was no longer weeping, so that was basically
19 it. I still have some consequences. I break out in a sweat a lot; I
20 dream about those events at night.
21 Q. Were you off work after sustaining these injuries?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How long were you off work for?
24 A. Well, I still don't work, because Dr. Andrija Tomanovic told me
25 at that time that I should not lift anything heavier than 5 kilos, that's
1 what he told me.
2 Q. Are you able to lift anything more than 5 kilos now?
3 A. Well, perhaps I could do it, but I shouldn't. I must not because
4 after all I'm not an expert and he is, and that's what he told me.
5 Q. Are the injuries you received on the 18th of April, 1998, the
6 reason why you haven't worked since then?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I want you to have a look at a video, which is Exhibit 37.
9 MR. RE: The video will be displayed in Sanction.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, the -- is there any -- what's
11 the spoken text on the video, what language?
12 MR. RE: It's in English, it's digitised. It's in Serbian and in
13 English, it's digitised.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. RE: The transcript is 65 ter 37 and 38, which is in
16 Albanian, English, and Serbian.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we'll just read the English from the
18 screen. Is that what I understand?
19 MR. RE: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It will not be read aloud, because otherwise we'll
21 need to have it translated into French. But we treat it as an exhibit
22 rather than as part of the transcript. So, therefore, we just look at it
23 without any English being spoken.
24 MR. RE: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Then Madam Registrar, it would be number...?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P34,
3 marked for identification.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 And, Mr. Re, I take it that P33, having heard what the witness
6 said, there might be a copy -- a spare copy somewhere for the witness to
7 take home in the original.
8 MR. RE: Certainly.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the video can be played.
10 [Videotape played]
11 MR. RE:
12 Q. All right. Mr. Stojanovic, was that you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember the cameras coming in? Were you conscious at the
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you speak to any journalists?
18 A. At first, yes, and then I refused to talk to any of them because
19 I just couldn't.
20 Q. What state were you in when the cameras and the journalists came
21 into the hospital?
22 A. Well, I can't really remember.
23 Q. Had you just been operated on?
24 A. Yes. This is the intensive care unit depicted here, this is
25 where I was.
1 Q. In your evidence today and on Friday, you said you were taken to
2 what you thought was -- what you described as the KLA headquarters. Why
3 did you think that Smajl Haradinaj's house was the KLA headquarters?
4 A. Because that's what I had heard from them. Even that day, I told
5 you they were saying, What shall we do with these people? And the other
6 guy told them, Take them to HQ. I didn't know there was one or, indeed,
7 where it was before I was told.
8 Q. The house and the property which you described on Friday which is
9 next to the Ramush Haradinaj family compound or property, who owns that
10 house? I mean your house?
11 A. Which house? On my land? That one is owned by
12 Ljubica Stojanovic, my mother. This is land, an estate, belonging to our
13 family which we inherited from our father.
14 Q. How long has it been in your family for?
15 A. My grandfather, then my father and then I. We have all the
16 documents to show that the property belongs to us, the original purchase
17 documents. When we fled the area, I gave this to the local
18 administration and I received a confirmation in return from them, saying
19 that this was our land, our property, and that no one would be allowed to
20 take it away from us.
21 Q. Why did you flee the area?
22 A. It wasn't safe. If I had stayed, I would have been killed; that
23 much is certain.
24 Q. Who do you think would have killed you?
25 A. Like most other people.
1 Q. Who do you think would have killed you if you had stayed there?
2 A. Those same people who had arrested me, beaten me, and mistreated
4 Q. Are you referring to KLA members and Ramush Haradinaj and his
6 A. Yes, I am. There were people who were arrested after me; for
7 example, Mirko Vlahovic; Miro Vlahovic; Dana, a lady; and her daughter
8 whose name I think is Dara; and her daughter, too, whose name I can't
9 remember; the Radunovics, husband and wife. It was a week after I had
10 been arrested, they too were arrested, never to turn up again.
11 Q. When was it that you fled the area?
12 A. On the 12th of April, 1999, that sort of thing.
13 Q. When was -- I withdraw that.
14 You said on Friday, the last time you lived in your house was the
15 24th of March, 1998?
16 A. The Friday? My house? Are you asking about my home? The
17 previous question. Are you asking about my home or the Decani area?
18 Q. I'm talking about your home next to the Haradinaj family
20 A. The 24th of March, 1998.
21 Q. Where do you live now?
22 A. In Serbia.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I may have missed the point in the last
24 question. The witness testified that he left the area the 12th of April,
25 1999. Then you say you said on Friday the last time you lived in your
1 house was the 24th of March, 1998, and then the witness confirmed that.
2 What was -- I didn't understand, it's just to put the two dates one next
3 to another so that we know that he left his house in 1998, 24th of March,
4 and then the area later?
5 MR. RE: That's correct, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. To finish, I want to show you two more photographs,
9 Mr. Stojanovic. Firstly, there's an overhead photograph of -- which is
10 Exhibit Number 1210.
11 MR. RE: If that could be displayed in e-court, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P35,
15 marked for identification.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Looking at this one, Mr. Stojanovic, it does actually have
20 Gllogjan and surroundings written on the top, can you recognise that is
21 an aerial photograph of Gllogjan and the village of Rznic?
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't catch the answer.
23 MR. RE:
24 Q. Can you repeat your answer again, please?
25 A. From the air, yes, I do recognise it. It's an aerial photograph.
1 Q. Can you see where your property is on that -- on that map?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Can you see where the Haradinaj family compound is on that map?
4 A. No.
5 MR. RE: Maybe if we could blow up the bit underneath where it
6 says "Gllogjan." Can you zoom in a bit more?
7 Q. We've made it larger, does that assist you?
8 A. I see it. I see it, but I can't be specific enough. You can't
9 really tell the houses in this photograph.
10 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown 65 ter Exhibit 1106.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P36,
13 marked for identification.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 MR. RE:
16 Q. There's a house with a cow in front of it. Can you identify that
18 A. This is a house in Glodjane.
19 Q. Can you tell us whose house it is?
20 A. I think this might be Zeqir Xheladin's house.
21 Q. Where is it in relation to your house, your property?
22 A. It's at the village, in front of Smajl's house, in front of
23 Smajl's house. It's not too near my own property unless something has
24 been changed over. It did look a lot like this when I was still down in
25 the area --
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't understand the last bit
2 of the witness's answer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
4 MR. EMMERSON: It may assist if the witness just simply for a
5 second were to remove his headphones.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, could you please take off your headphones for a
10 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours, there's no dispute that this is the
11 Haradinaj family compound depicted in this photograph.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Mr. Re, please proceed.
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. How long is it since you've been back to where your property is
16 in Gllogjan?
17 A. Nine years. My own property is in Dubrava, not in Glodjane.
18 They do share a border, though, the two.
19 Q. I just want to clarify -- to finish, I just want to clarify one
20 thing and that's -- you said you fled the area, and I want to try and
21 clarify the reason why you left your property, your house, in the village
22 of Gllogjan.
23 A. You see, my property, my estate is part of Dubrava officially.
24 It's the last estate in Dubrava, the most out-lying estate if you like,
25 and after my estate, that's where the Glodjane land begins. Why did I
1 flee? For safety reasons, you might say.
2 Q. When you said before you went for fear of your life, were you
3 referring to leaving your property or were you referring to leaving the
4 Decani area? I just want to clarify that.
5 A. What I was referring to was we were leaving provisionally, that's
6 what I thought at the time, I thought that things would soon be back to
7 normal and that we could proceed as always.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Re, I'd like to -- witness, part of your
9 answer was lost earlier. Could you please have again a look at this
10 photograph and see whether you can be -- whether you recognise whose
11 house this is.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This house could have been added
13 to, in the meantime. It changed over. There could have been an
14 extension. It looks like Hilmi's house, but it wasn't like this when I
15 was there. If it's the same house, extensions have been made to it.
16 This whole part just next to this tree over here wasn't there when I was
17 last physically present in the area. His house was old. One floor, but
18 it wasn't a finished house.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.
20 MR. RE:
21 Q. Was there a wall around the Haradinaj family compound when you
22 left on the 24th of March, 1998, that's Ramush Haradinaj's compound?
23 A. Not around the family compound, but around the yard. There was
24 what we refer to as a fence, a wooden fence, and inside the fence a new
25 wall had been built.
1 Q. When had the new wall been built?
2 A. Before the 24th of March, must have been one of those days just
4 Q. Do you know why it was built?
5 A. No.
6 MR. RE: That's the examination-in-chief.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Re.
8 Mr. Emmerson, first of all, it's time for a break I would say.
9 Of course I understood that there's no -- seems to be no disagreement
10 about what this house is, nevertheless I put some questions in relation
11 to the house for other purposes, not to identify the house as such. And
12 I'd like to be informed if major changes were made since 1998 to that
13 house for the same purposes.
14 Then, Mr. Re, yesterday there was a glimpse of hope when you said
15 that you would finish the witness in the scheduled one and a half hour.
16 It was two and a half, as a matter of fact.
17 We'll first have a break, Mr. Stojanovic, and then you'll be
18 cross-examined by counsel for the Defence. I already asked the usher to
19 escort you out of the courtroom because one or two little tiny things.
20 If you, Mr. Usher, would escort the witness out of the courtroom.
21 We'll resume at a quarter past 4.00.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I'd like to hear about the approximate
24 time of cross-examination. I did understand that it would take quite
25 some time.
1 MR. EMMERSON: I expect to be longer with this witness than with
2 the next witness who covers a much the same territory.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. EMMERSON: So to the extent that I'm somewhat longer with
5 this witness the time will be significantly made up with a much shorter,
6 I expect, cross-examination of the next witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you think you'll need?
8 MR. EMMERSON: I'll certainly be completed considerably within
9 two hours, I would hope nearer to an hour and a half but two hours is an
10 outer limit.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have another question. There was a partly
12 confidential motion filed, I think, it was on Friday, it had to do with
13 videolink. Does the Defence know when it will respond to it, whether it
14 would be an oral response or --
15 MR. EMMERSON: Can I answer that question immediately after the
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- get being information immediately after the
20 break. If the Chamber, of course, would accept an oral answer if there
21 is agreement, if not, the matter is relatively urgent because preparing
22 for a videolink takes approximately one week and if you look at the
23 scheduling we would like to receive an answer as soon as possible.
24 We'll have a break and resume at quarter past 4.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Does Your Honour want to deal with those two
4 matters now?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if that can be done quickly, then.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Well, so far as the videolink application is
7 concerned --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. EMMERSON: -- our view is that whilst we would never wish to
10 stand in the way of an application based on medical grounds --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. EMMERSON: -- the only short-coming in the document, as we
13 see it, is that there's no attempt to explain why it is that the wife
14 can't be cared for by medical professionals.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. EMMERSON: And if that matter can be explored, then perhaps
17 we could revisit it once the answer is to hand, perhaps even tomorrow
19 JUDGE ORIE: We will consider it.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that that's the only issue to be
23 MR. EMMERSON: So far as -- so far as the Haradinaj Defence team
24 is concerned.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm looking at Mr. Guy-Smith and I'm looking
1 at -- who --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes --
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- nods yes.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: That was the issue that we collectively
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
7 MR. HARVEY: The same.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Same, too. Okay. Yes.
9 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours, the other matter again, perhaps best
10 dealt with with the witness in the absence of the headphones, is the
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you take off your headphones for a
13 second? Yes.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour has the photograph either in mind or
15 on the screen, I think.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. EMMERSON: The position is that there was a tree shown in the
18 photograph. Everything to the right of the tree is a building that
19 stands in exactly the position of the building that was on the site at
20 the time. Now, the original building was destroyed by Serbian shelling
21 and fire during 1998, or very largely destroyed, and has been rebuilt.
22 Everything to the left of the tree is an addition that has gone
23 on since then. So to that extent, the witness's recollection - perhaps
24 that's what threw him - is correct; that that portion of the building on
25 the left was added at or after the time that the building was rebuilt
1 following bombing.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's just for the Chamber to be able to make a
3 better assessment of reliability issues. Okay. That's clear. Then --
4 that's -- then I think we could start cross-examination.
5 Could you put your earphones -- yes.
6 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, you'll now be examined by Mr. Emmerson, who
7 is counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
8 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
10 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, before I start to ask you questions, I want to
11 explain to you in advance the line of questions that I'm going to put to
12 you so that you understand what it is I am asking you about. If you
13 don't understand any question or you want me to explain why I'm asking
14 you it, do please just say so. I'm not going to ask you any questions
15 about your injuries, and may I make it clear at the outset that I am not
16 challenging the fact that you were badly beaten on the 18th of April,
17 1998, by Albanian villagers from Gllogjan.
18 The questions that I am going to ask you are aimed at exploring
19 the background to this incident and how and why it may have happened, and
20 I'm also going to suggest to you that you are mistaken in your
21 identification of Ramush Haradinaj as a person who was present at
22 Smajl Haradinaj's house while you were detained there. So that is,
23 broadly speaking, the topics or the areas on which I am going to ask you
24 some questions.
25 First of all, I want to deal with that second topic; in other
1 words, what happened to you inside Smajl Haradinaj's building in Gllogjan
2 and the incident where you describe a man you believed to be
3 Ramush Haradinaj walking up the stairs and kicking you in the back and
4 saying to you, Do you recognise me, neighbour? It's that incident I'm
5 going to ask you some questions about; all right?
6 A. All right.
7 Q. Now, you've told us that you went to school with Ramush
8 Haradinaj. Is that right?
9 A. The same school, not the same class. We weren't classmates.
10 Q. Ramush Haradinaj, I suggest to you, left Kosovo in 1991 and did
11 not return to live in Kosovo until the end of February 1998. Can I ask
12 you, please, do you say that you saw him at all between 1991 and the
13 occasion on the 18th of April, when you say you saw him inside
14 Smajl Haradinaj's house?
15 A. I hadn't seen him for about ten years, but I did again at
16 Smajl Haradinaj's house.
17 Q. Thank you. And that was the first time you'd seen
18 Ramush Haradinaj, if you were right, for ten years?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. And just to be clear, the man you've identified as
21 Ramush Haradinaj, you didn't see him at any earlier point on the 18th of
22 April before you say he came up the stairs inside the house, did you?
23 A. It wasn't before then that I saw him. You understood me well.
24 Q. Thank you. So you, for example, never saw him outside your house
25 when you and your cousin and your brother were taken from there or at any
1 time on the route down to the village?
2 A. No, I didn't.
3 Q. And I think -- am I right in saying - and I'm taking this from a
4 statement you have made to the Prosecution - that after that incident on
5 the 18th of April, you never saw him again. Is that right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. So now we can just focus in on that moment when this man walked
8 up the stairs. I want to make sure that I've understood your account of
9 that part of the incident correctly. Now, you've told us, I think, that
10 by the time this man came up the stairs, you had already been badly hurt.
11 Is that right?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. I think you told us all of the injuries you had sustained had
14 already been sustained before that?
15 A. It's hard to be specific. I had been beaten. I had started to
16 suffocate before that point in time; that is, when he eventually came in.
17 Q. And you had already lost consciousness on a number of occasions,
18 I think. Is that right?
19 A. That's true.
20 Q. Now, again, so that I've got the sequence correct, from the
21 evidence that you've given so far, you've described three spaces that
22 make up the first floor or the top floor of the house. You've described
23 the corridor, a small room, and a larger guest-room. Is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Just so that the Judges understand, a guest-room is what's known
1 in Albanian as an "oda." Is that right?
2 A. It's called "burjum."
3 Q. In Serbian perhaps. But it's a large room --
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not here to communicate --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, in Albanian.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haradinaj is nodding yes on the answer of
7 witness, although it's not usually my task to -- please proceed.
8 MR. EMMERSON:
9 Q. So that's a large room typically, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you told us about an occasion when you were being asked
12 questions by, I think, Besnik, you said, Haradinaj inside that building;
14 A. What I said is I thought his name was Besnik. One thing I do
15 know for sure is that he was at Rasim Haradinaj's house. Rasim Haradinaj
16 is the accused person's uncle.
17 Q. You say it was at Rasim Haradinaj's house. Did you not tell us
18 earlier it was at Smajl Haradinaj's house?
19 A. No, not in Rasim's house. The son of Rasim Haradinaj was
20 interrogating me in Smajl Haradinaj's house.
21 Q. That's what I had understood. And that interrogation is the one
22 where you asked him to open the window, he gave you a cup of coffee, you
23 choked on it, and then he opened the door. That's the interrogation
24 we're speaking about, isn't it?
25 A. I'd finished about half my coffee, and then all the rest that
1 followed the interrogation, in that room.
2 Q. Yes. This is what I just want to clarify. Which of those three
3 rooms did that interrogation take place: The large guest-room, the small
4 room, or the corridor?
5 A. In the small room.
6 Q. And you've told us that when the door was opened and you went out
7 into the corridor, Mijat, your brother, and your cousin Veselin were in
8 the corridor. Is that correct?
9 A. We were all brought to the corridor together, all together, all
10 the way from my house to that corridor. And then I was thrown into that
11 small room to be interrogated.
12 Q. Yes. So I understand it's a bit -- I'm asking you detailed
13 questions. The question I'm asking you is: When you came out of the
14 small room after being interrogated, when the door was opened, Mijat and
15 Veselin were in the corridor, according to you. Is that right, they were
16 still there?
17 A. Mijat and Veselin and the soldiers guarding them.
18 Q. Yes, but they were -- just so we're clear. Mijat and Veselin
19 were in the corridor when you came out of that room?
20 A. Yes, that's true.
21 Q. Now, you told us I think that you lost consciousness again in the
22 corridor on a number of occasions. Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you told us of an occasion when you heard Mijat and Veselin
25 shouting whilst they were being ill-treated in another room; yes?
1 A. Yes. Whenever I came to I would hear that. It wasn't just for a
2 brief while. The beating went on for quite a long time.
3 Q. Yes. Two things, if I may. Which room of the three were they?
4 You were in the corridor, when you heard their shouts were they coming
5 from the large guest-room or from the little room?
6 A. No, from the little room, because I was next to the door to the
7 small room, and this was a very narrow corridor and I can be quite
8 certain that they came from the little room.
9 Q. That's what I needed to be clear. So the other two were, you
10 say, being ill-treated in the little room, not in the guest-room. Is
11 that right?
12 A. In the little room.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, can you be clear, were they in there together or
14 were they taken in separately, one after the other, as far as you can
16 A. They first took Veselin in, as far as I can remember, and then
17 they took Mijat in as well.
18 Q. And when they took Mijat in, did Veselin come out or did he stay
19 inside; in other words, were two of them in the room at the same time or
20 were they in the room separately, one after the other?
21 A. They were there at the same time, both of them.
22 Q. So there was a period of time when you were on your own in the
23 corridor, in the sense that neither of the other two or with you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I think you told us this afternoon that it was while you were
1 on your own in the corridor that the man you say is Ramush Haradinaj came
2 and kicked you in the back. Is that correct?
3 A. First he shoved me with his foot in order for me to face him, and
4 then he asked me, Neighbour, do you know me? And when I said, No, he
5 kicked me in the back. This is what I state, and then he told me, Well,
6 you will come to know me well.
7 Q. Yes. My question, Mr. Stojanovic, is simply this: When that
8 incident occurred, that was - you told us earlier on - whilst both of the
9 other two were in the small room and you were in the corridor without
10 either of them. Is that correct?
11 A. In the corridor, yes.
12 Q. Sorry, just to be absolutely clear because that doesn't entirely
13 answer my question. When this incident happened with the man you say was
14 Ramush Haradinaj, were -- was either Mijat or Veselin in the corridor
15 with you at that time, yes or no?
16 A. They were not there. I was the only one there.
17 Q. Thank you. And I think you've already told us this afternoon
18 that nobody mentioned the word "commander" or addressed Mr. Haradinaj as
19 you thought it was with the name "commander" in your presence that
20 afternoon, did they?
21 A. Not in my presence. They simply stood up and greeted him.
22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Could you repeat how they greeted him? You
23 described that already in your former examination, but you made a sign
24 with a hand?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A fist.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The fist to the head. Thank you. That was a
2 sign --
3 MR. RE: Could the record perhaps --
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- I understand.
5 MR. RE: Could the record perhaps reflect the witness raised his
6 right fist with his elbow out and put it to his forehead.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
8 MR. EMMERSON:
9 Q. Now, you've told us that at least three other people said the
10 same thing to you, Do you recognise me, neighbour, that afternoon; is
11 that correct? At least three others?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was it more than three other people?
14 A. Three people that I can remember: Agron; Nasim; and Mustafa Zeq,
15 Islam's son. Agron Naim, not Nasim, but Naim, Smajl's son, his eldest
17 Q. And the room that the man you say was Ramush, the room that he
18 walked into you've told us was the guest-room; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So he did not walk into the small room where the other two men
21 were being detained?
22 A. At that time, I did not see him.
23 Q. No, you didn't see him walk into the room at any time, the small
24 room, did you?
25 A. No, I didn't see him walk into the small room.
1 Q. And you told us that after he walked into the big room, you
2 didn't see him again, is that right, that afternoon?
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. If you had to try and estimate it for the Judges, how long do you
5 think it would have taken this man to get from the top of the stairs to
6 have the conflict with you, where you say he kicked you and so on, and
7 then to walk into the guest-room? Roughly how many, if you can put it in
8 seconds for us, how long did that go on for, do you think?
9 A. Well, it's not a matter of seconds. It was at least five or six
10 minutes because he stopped next to me. He didn't just pass; he stopped
12 Q. And the conversation that you've described, was that the only
13 conversation that took place during this five minutes, where he said to
14 you, Do you recognise me, neighbour?
15 A. Yes, yes. But he also spoke to his soldiers. They greeted him,
16 he greeted them back, and they had a discussion, but this was the only
17 thing that he told me. This was the only conversation that we had.
18 Q. And did you pick up at all what the discussion he was having with
19 the soldiers was about?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you --
22 A. You have to understand that I didn't really care about what they
23 were talking about because I was thinking about my own problems, how I
24 could actually get out of there.
25 Q. No, I quite understand that. Mr. Stojanovic, do you think, given
1 how badly injured you had been and given the fact that you were drifting
2 in and out of consciousness, you might become confused about the sequence
3 of these events or not?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Can I ask, please, that you be shown a witness statement that you
6 made on the 2nd of November, 2001?
7 MR. EMMERSON: This is in English and in Albanian, but we don't
8 need that, the Defence 1D020426 and there is a B/C/S version at
9 65 ter 1211 for the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to show that to the witness?
11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar that will be ...?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be D22, marked for
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MR. EMMERSON: If we can just go, please, to the -- on the B/C/S
17 version --
18 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, this is a translation into Serbian of the
19 statement that you have signed on the 2nd of November, 2001 -- I'm sorry,
20 it's the Albanian that's on the screen.
21 MR. EMMERSON: The B/C/S version should be 65 ter 1211. It's
22 separate. I see. I understand the Prosecution have hard copies of the
23 B/C/S version. I wonder if the witness might be given a hard copy of the
24 statement that he made in Serbian -- or the Serbian translation.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 MR. EMMERSON: And could we please have the English version 0 --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --
3 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- you're going to tender which version, which
5 language version?
6 MR. EMMERSON: I will tender the English and Albanian versions,
7 and we will link-up the B/C/S version in due course so that there will be
8 a single exhibit number.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So they'll -- yes, they'll all three, English,
10 Serbian, and Albanian, will be under the same number?
11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Stojanovic, I think you saw that witness statement
15 before you gave evidence on Friday, didn't you? Mr. Stojanovic, is there
16 a problem with translation? Ah --
17 A. I saw this statement, but I saw quite a few errors in the
19 Q. I see. Well --
20 A. Errors, defects, that make it different from what I actually
22 Q. Well, we can look at the translations separately, Mr. Stojanovic.
23 I just want to look at what you are recorded as having said. First of
24 all, you read this statement through before you gave evidence -- just let
25 me finish. You read this statement through before you gave evidence on
1 Friday, didn't you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, can you please -- if you just look through from the
4 beginning of the statement, the paragraph numbers -- the paragraphs may
5 not be the same and they're not numbered. If you could find the seventh
6 full paragraph, if you just count the full paragraphs through to the
7 seventh full paragraph.
8 MR. EMMERSON: If we could have the English on the screen,
9 please, at 0426, that's the statement itself, and we would want 0 -- the
10 number we have here is 24692, so it's the third page of the statement in
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MR. EMMERSON: The statement should be document identification
14 0426 in English. Do we have that?
15 Q. If you could just, Mr. Stojanovic, just be --
16 A. No, I can't find it.
17 Q. Don't worry about the screen. If you concentrate on the Serbian
18 version, which you've got in hard copy, if you could read over to
19 yourself, please, the seventh paragraph.
20 A. Could you please explain to me, what page is this seventh
21 paragraph on?
22 Q. The difficulty is that the pages will not necessarily correspond.
23 If you could just count through from the beginning of the text of the
24 statement --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, if you read the very beginning of that
1 paragraph in English, then it will be translated for the witness so that
2 he can find his way.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. It's a paragraph which begins, Mr. Stojanovic: "They were all
5 wearing green guerilla-type uniforms ..."
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: It's a short paragraph --
7 MR. EMMERSON: Does Your Honour have it in English on the screen?
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: It must be a short paragraph after the long
9 paragraph which deals with several names, and the last sentence of the
10 long paragraph is: "The other three were my neighbours I have known."
11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry. We have a problem because we have
12 an Albanian version on the screen.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Witness, can you find a paragraph which starts: "They were all
15 wearing green guerilla-type uniforms and they all wore black berets"?
16 Can you find a paragraph starting with that line?
17 MR. EMMERSON:
18 Q. It will be roughly on the second or third page. Perhaps if
19 you --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps --
21 MR. EMMERSON: If I --
22 JUDGE ORIE: If we put it on the ELMO, and then we're able to see
23 what the witness also sees, and we could try to assist him.
24 Mr. Usher.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, it may be that I might be able to
1 count through and show him which paragraph I'm referring to, rather
2 than --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Can I try that first?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Would you just pass the statement to me for a
7 moment, please?
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Do you have more than one copy?
9 MR. EMMERSON: It's page 4, just about halfway down the page.
10 Q. I've placed a cross, Mr. Stojanovic, at the passage I want you to
11 look at, please. And if you could just read those paragraphs. Perhaps
12 we can give you an opportunity to have a look at them yourself for a
13 moment, down to the part where you discuss Ramush Haradinaj and including
14 that part.
15 Have you had an opportunity to --
16 A. Yes, yes, I found it.
17 Q. Thank you. In the paragraph which begins: "They were all
18 wearing green guerilla-type uniforms ...", you describe the questioning
19 that this man Besnik Haradinaj conducted inside the room. Do you agree?
20 That's what you're describing in that paragraph; correct?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. There's then a paragraph that begins:
23 "I was badly injured while in our house before, and I started to
24 lose consciousness and pass out. I started to choke, and they pulled me
25 from the room. They did not strike me at all during this time because I
1 was already injured so badly. I had blood all over my face and head. I
2 was losing consciousness again. I was lying in the hallway on the
3 concrete for a while, sometimes regaining consciousness and could hear
4 Mijat and Veselin's screams coming from inside the room I had been
5 inside. I did not see them take them inside this room."
6 First of all, is that correct, that passage? Just the passage
7 I've read to you, Mr. Stojanovic?
8 A. When they were put inside this room, yes, I was ...
9 Q. Sorry, did you -- I don't know if we got the whole of your
10 answer. When you got -- when you were put inside the room --
11 A. Could you ask me a specific question so that I could see what is
12 it that you want me to tell you, what you're asking me for?
13 Q. Of course I can. I was originally just asking you,
14 Mr. Stojanovic, whether the passage that I've just put to you is correct?
15 Is it correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So that it follows that you were in and out of consciousness
18 whilst on the corridor and didn't see Mijat and Veselin being taken into
19 the small room. Is that right? You were unconscious when Mijat and
20 Veselin were taken into the small room. Is that right?
21 A. Veselin, yes, but Mijat was put into this room later.
22 Q. Did you see him being put into the room, as far as you can
24 A. Mijat? You mean Mijat?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Because you can see that in the statement you've been recorded as
3 saying: "I did not see them take them inside the room." "Take them
4 inside the room." Do you see --
5 A. Not the first one, but yes as to the second one, the other one.
6 Q. Okay. If we just look at the lines which follow, you give a list
7 of names and descriptions of people, and at the bottom of that paragraph
8 you refer to someone called Isuf Verizaj, and you say that man told
9 you --
10 A. Just a moment, please. Not Isuf Verizaj but Jusuf Dervishaj.
11 This goes to show that there are quite a lot of defects in the
13 Q. Very well. The gentleman that is there referred to, you say
14 Jusuf Dervishaj, the statement records him saying to you: "Don't be
15 afraid we will let you go." And you say: "This man was my neighbour and
16 I saw him and recognised his voice, too. I passed out then again."
17 Is that right? After that man spoke to you, you passed out then again?
18 A. I fainted a number of times, so I think that this is probably
19 correct, but since nine years have passed, I am -- I'm afraid unable to
20 remember every little detail.
21 Q. I entirely understand that, Mr. Stojanovic, and that's what I put
22 to you a moment ago, that having regard to the condition you were in,
23 remembering the precise sequence of what took place may be difficult for
24 you and it may have become confused in your mind.
25 Now, I want, if I may, to just look at the next paragraph because
1 after you describe Mijat and Veselin being inside the room and having
2 heard their screams, you then say:
3 "After a while I awoke again. I saw Ramush Haradinaj coming up
4 the stairs with some soldiers. Ramush walked up to me and kicked me in
5 my back. Ramush asked me then, Do you recognise me, neighbour? When I
6 answered, No, he said if you don't know me, you will know me. I saw
7 Veselin and Mijat on the floor in the corridor. They were next to me.
8 They were" --
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Excuse me just a moment. I'm lost a little bit.
10 MR. EMMERSON: I apologise. Does Your Honour have --
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Did you continue with the next paragraph?
12 MR. EMMERSON: It's a paragraph beginning: "After a while ..."
13 Does Your Honour have that?
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: No.
15 MR. EMMERSON: It's the following paragraph on the same page.
16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Same page? In English?
17 MR. EMMERSON: It's in English, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in English, it's still the same paragraph.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. "After a while" --
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, does Your Honour have that?
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Does this mean after the sentence: "I passed out
22 then again ..."?
23 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly, this is after the description of Veselin
24 and Mijat being --
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
1 MR. EMMERSON: So if we can go to that paragraph again --
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So it is after the long paragraph that we
3 discussed before so make sure that the witness knows exactly what
4 paragraph we are looking at.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The witness finds it in his own language page 5, I
6 think the new paragraph starting approximately the seventh line from the
8 MR. EMMERSON: I think I noticed the witness turning over the
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. EMMERSON: If we could just go through that paragraph again.
12 Q. "After I while I awoke again I saw Ramush Haradinaj coming up the
13 stairs with some soldiers?"
14 You then describe the incident that you've told us about and you
15 then say he said, If you don't know me, you will know me" --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. "I saw Veselin and Mijat on the floor in the corridor. They were
18 next to me. They were conscious. I passed out again and awoke, and
19 Veselin was there but Mijat was gone?"
20 Now, the account that's recorded in this statement,
21 Mr. Stojanovic, is that at the time the man you say was Ramush Haradinaj
22 came up the stairs, Veselin and Mijat were conscious in the corridor
23 beside you and they had already been taken into the room where they had
24 been beaten. Now, that's what the statement records. Can you help us
25 with that at all?
1 A. Yes, yes, I can. In the statement it appears that all of this
2 happened within a span of one minute, if you're reading the statement,
3 but you have to insert some pauses here because first the thing with
4 Ramush happened. Then after a while, after some time, perhaps I fainted
5 again, I came to and I saw Mijat and Veselin next to me. So please, do
6 not attempt to challenge what I'm saying here because I know very well
7 what happened and what he told me.
8 Q. Leaving the times aside, Mr. Stojanovic, just looking at the
9 sequence, in this statement you were recorded as having said that Mijat
10 and Veselin had been taken into the small room and beaten before this man
11 you describe as Haradinaj came up the stairs, and that by the time he
12 came up the stairs they had been removed from the small room and were
13 back in the corridor --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- would you please -- could you please --
15 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry --
16 JUDGE ORIE: The witness, I think, gave an explanation which at
17 least -- when the statement reads: "I saw Veselin and Mijat on the floor
18 in the corridor ...", was that when you saw Mr. Haradinaj coming up the
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. First he kicked me, and then
21 after a while, at a later stage, I fainted again. And then when I came
22 to, I saw them in the corridor.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
24 MR. EMMERSON:
25 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, you've told us this afternoon that at the time
1 this incident occurred you couldn't recognise the other soldiers because
2 you were prone, that is face down, and hardly able to have a proper look.
3 That was your evidence this afternoon. Is that a fair description of the
4 position you were in when the man you say was Mr. Haradinaj came up the
6 A. I did not say that I was face down; I said just that I was lying
7 down on my left or on my right side if I managed to turn over, because it
8 was very difficult for me to move.
9 Q. Then that's my mistake because the word I've written down in your
10 testimony is "prone," which to me means face down. Perhaps that's now
11 how it was intended to be translated, but you did tell us, didn't you,
12 that you were hardly able to have a proper look and the more you looked
13 the worse it felt?
14 A. It is true that I felt worse, but this was such a small room. It
15 was less than 2 by 2 metres. It's such a small room. I already
16 explained that in a corner of that room there were some ammunition
17 crates. I was there on the floor, and the troops. It was impossible for
18 somebody to pass by without me noticing him or her, provided of course I
19 was conscious.
20 Q. Well, obviously. That's one of the things I need to ask you
21 about, because you are drifting in and out of consciousness during this
22 process. You're lying on the floor, and you've told us that you were -
23 to use your words - hardly able to have a proper look at the other
24 soldiers that were there. So what I'm trying to explore with you is:
25 How much of the time whilst you were lying there do you think you were
1 conscious and how much of it were you unconscious?
2 A. It's difficult to say. When one is unconscious, it's very
3 difficult for one to tell for how long that might be. That is why there
4 are a great many details that I'm not familiar with and that the other
5 two witnesses might know who were there, details that I can't remember.
6 Q. Can I read to you, Mr. Stojanovic, without, I think, going
7 through the time-consuming process of putting it up on the screen, can I
8 read to you a passage from a statement that you made on the 26th of May,
9 2002, to the Prosecution, and I'll read it slowly so it can be translated
10 to you. It's not the document you have in front of you, it's the second
11 statement that you made.
12 You said: "I remember that after I had been beaten at the HQ,
13 Ramush came to ask me whether I knew him and then saying that soon I
14 would, he kicked me once in the back and then went to the room where my
15 brother and cousin had been taken a while before."
16 A. No, not the brother, not the cousin, the guest-room. This may be
17 a mistranslation, but I'm telling you what I said.
18 Q. Well, we can check the translation, Mr. Stojanovic, but the
19 record of what you said is that the man walked into the room where your
20 brother and cousin had been taken a while before. That wouldn't be
21 right, though, would it, on your present evidence?
22 A. No, not the small room, the guest-room, the large one.
23 Q. You're also recorded as saying: "He did not introduce himself to
24 me as a commander, but I heard the KLA soldiers addressing him as such."
25 Again, that would be wrong as well, presumably, because you didn't hear
1 the KLA soldiers addressing him as "commander," did you?
2 A. Not in so many words, but they did greet him, that sort of thing.
3 Q. And after this incident, you told us that you saw Hilmi Haradinaj
4 at one point. Is that correct?
5 A. I saw Hilmi towards the end in that room when he gave us some
6 Coca-Cola and Fanta.
7 Q. Was there a time when you were outside in the yard by
8 Smajl Haradinaj's house together with Veselin and Mijat?
9 A. In the yard by Smajl Haradinaj's house?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. No, never.
12 Q. So you were never -- there was never a period of time when you
13 and your brother Mijat and Veselin were standing outside in the yard by
14 Smajl Haradinaj's house and being held there?
15 A. Smajl Haradinaj, yes. I thought you were asking about Hilmi's
16 yard because you had been asking me questions about Hilmi.
17 Q. No, don't worry. We'll put -- we'll put the question clearly.
18 Was there a period of time then when you and your brother and your cousin
19 were standing guarded outside Smajl Haradinaj's property, in the yard?
20 A. Yes. When they took us outside the house to wash up, there were
21 guards behind us. We were using that water-pump, and we were trying to
22 wash our faces. Hilmi was just beneath the staircase. He was seated
23 there, and then he went back to the room with us. That didn't appear to
24 me to matter very much, but he was with us up there when he gave us the
25 fruit juice, when he gave us some pie.
1 Q. You never saw Ramush Haradinaj at any point in the yard outside
2 Smajl Haradinaj's house, did you?
3 A. No, not there.
4 Q. I want to move on now to some other topics. You told us,
5 Mr. Stojanovic - and I'm just exploring some background questions for a
6 moment - you told us that on the 18th of April, you recognised one of the
7 people who came up to the house, you recognised a Chinese machine-gun.
8 And Mr. Re asked you how you knew this, and you said: "I had been to
9 reserve officer's school and I took a number of classes on weapons, so I
10 knew" --
11 A. Back in the military.
12 Q. Yes. So I wanted to be clear: How long before this incident on
13 the 18th of April had you had your training in reserve officer's school
14 in the military?
15 A. That was back in 1986 and 1987.
16 Q. So about 11 years or thereabouts earlier?
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. And can I ask you one or two questions, please, about your
19 brothers? Apart from yourself, have I got it right, there were four
20 other brothers. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. There was Mijat, and you've told him his -- his nickname was
23 Kika. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And he was, I think, several years older than you, is that right,
1 is several years older than you?
2 A. Two, two.
3 Q. Two years, thank you. Then there's Predrag?
4 A. Our eldest.
5 Q. And so how much older than you is Predrag?
6 A. I'm not sure when exactly he was born, but he was the eldest
8 Q. Then there's Vladimir or Vlado. Is his nickname Vlado?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Is he older than you or younger than you?
11 A. Older.
12 Q. And so can you just explain to us where he comes. Is he younger
13 than Predrag and older than Mijat?
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. And then who is the fourth brother, what's his proper name?
16 A. Veselin.
17 Q. So that's Veselin Stojanovic?
18 A. [No interpretation].
19 Q. And is his nickname Vesko?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And how old in relation to you is Veselin Stojanovic?
22 A. He's older. I am the youngest.
23 Q. And just so that we're clear, no misunderstanding,
24 Veselin Stojanovic is obviously not the same person as Veselin Stijovic
25 who you referred to at one point on Friday as your cousin?
1 A. That's right, not the same person. Stijovic is a relative.
2 Q. Yes, I understand. You have an immediate brother called Veselin;
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. Now, Predrag, your oldest brother, was a police officer, wasn't
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. When did he join the police?
9 A. I'm not sure about the year he joined, but he still worked
10 together with the Siptars in the police force.
11 Q. But he'd been a police officer for some years before 1998. Is
12 that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did you see him in uniform from time to time?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you ever come to know what sort of weapon or weapons he had
17 as a police officer?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, we've seen --
20 A. Just a minute, just a minute, please. I didn't, the reason being
21 he lived in Djakovica. He would sometimes come over to give us a hand
22 with the farm, but normally he resided and worked in Djakovica.
23 Q. And, Mr. Stojanovic, we've seen some official records that show
24 that by March 1999, he was a member of the paramilitary police. Did you
25 know that?
1 A. Paramilitary police, no, that is not true. It's not that I don't
2 know about it. It is most certainly not true.
3 Q. Just so that we're clear, you've heard of the PJP, have you?
4 PJP, do those initials mean anything to you?
5 A. What exactly.
6 Q. The PJP, the paramilitary police?
7 A. Can you please try to expand for me to know what that means,
9 Q. I can give you the full name in Serbian, if that would assist
11 A. Well, yes, that's what I'd like, thank you.
12 Q. So if you just bear with me, I'll spell it for the interpreter.
13 It's Posebne, P-o-s-e-b-n-e; Jedinice, J-e-d-i-n-i-c-e; Policije,
15 A. I've never even heard of those.
16 Q. So when you tell us categorically that your brother was not a
17 member of the paramilitary police you're not able to tell us one way or
18 the other whether he was a member of that organisation, are you?
19 A. What I can tell you is he was a watchman. He was a police
20 officer who most of the time was spending his time as a watchman.
21 Q. I'll come back to what he was doing in a little while, if I may.
22 What about Veselin, as far as you know, did he ever join the police at
23 all or the police reserve at any time?
24 A. Neither the reserve nor any kind at all, not the police, not the
1 Q. Do you know anybody else called Veselin Stojanovic?
2 A. Not in Dubrava, not where we lived.
3 Q. I see?
4 A. Not any way.
5 Q. And so do I take it that neither you nor either of your other two
6 brothers, Mijat or Vladimir, were members of the police reserve. Is that
8 A. You're free to conclude that.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us then, please, between January and
10 March 1998 who was living at your house? Who was living there?
11 A. Between January and March, I was, my mother was, my sister was.
12 I worked in Decani at the school that I mentioned. My sister would go to
13 Djakovica, she worked there, she worked in a shop, and my mother was
14 retired. Mijat would sometimes come. He had lived in Belgrade for a
15 long time. The last couple of years he was there, he was selling some
16 sort of dye, some sort of oxidised dye, industrial. So he would go to
17 that shop but he would often come over, back to his old home and spend
18 the night with us. He was, however, a resident of Belgrade.
19 Q. Can I ask you whether either you or any other member of your
20 family kept weapons at your home between January and the 24th of March,
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What weapons did you keep at your home?
24 A. My mother had a pistol and a hunting rifle that my father had
25 left behind.
1 Q. Did you use to carry the pistol around with you, yourself,
2 Mr. Stojanovic?
3 A. My mother's? You mean my mother's pistol? I didn't have a
4 pistol. The pistol belonged to my mother.
5 Q. Did you carry it around with you when you were away from the
7 A. No, no, I didn't.
8 Q. Can I ask you about the incident when you were stopped by four
9 masked men in Gllogjan. You've told us that they asked you some
10 questions --
11 A. Sure, go ahead.
12 Q. You've told us that they asked you some questions and searched
13 you. Is that right?
14 A. They searched me and they searched the car as well.
15 Q. And did they tell you what they were looking for?
16 A. No, they didn't explain what they were after, but they searched
17 both me and the car.
18 Q. Did they find a gun?
19 A. On me, no.
20 Q. In your car?
21 A. Not in my car either.
22 Q. And did you have to sign a piece of paper to say that they had
23 given you back your gun?
24 A. Who said they give me back anything? They hadn't found anything
25 to begin with. Did I sign a statement? Yes, I did, that they had not
1 mistreated me, to that effect. That's what they asked me to do. They
2 dictated a statement to me, and I wrote it down that they hadn't
3 mistreated me, that they hadn't beaten me, which after all was true, at
4 least it was true for that particular evening.
5 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, you've asked me a question, and it's one of those
6 rare occasions where I'm permitted to answer it. And it's your mother
7 who says that they found a gun on you; she's made a statement to that
8 effect, that they found a pistol on you and that you were required to
9 sign --
10 A. My mother, my mother is an old woman. I signed the statement. I
11 was the one who had been searched. How can my mother or anyone else on
12 earth, for that matter, know anything about that except for myself? It
13 wasn't just once that they actually physically frisked me during that
14 time that they stopped me; they frisked me about five times.
15 Q. You presumably discussed this incident with your mother,
16 Mr. Stojanovic?
17 A. I told the police about that incident. I'd reported to the
18 police, as any citizen indeed should.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Can we please see Rule 65 ter number 1161?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be -- oh, is it?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D23,
22 marked for identification.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 MR. EMMERSON:
25 Q. Now, Mr. Stojanovic, I'm going to have to read this passage to
1 you because we don't have it in Serbian, but we have heard evidence from
2 the person who compiled this report after conducting an interview with
3 your mother, in which she says she wrote down verbatim what your mother
4 told her, and the interview was conducted, as we can see -- or the report
5 compiled, rather, on the 9th of April.
6 And one sees at the bottom of the page that the record shows that
7 the interview was conducted also on the 9th of April at a youth centre in
9 MR. EMMERSON: If we could just go to the second page, please,
10 and to the first paragraph. If you can just enlarge the first paragraph,
11 please. Just the first paragraph is all we need for the present
13 Q. In the third line of the first paragraph, I'm going to read this
14 slowly for translation purposes.
15 "They caught my son Dragoslav at the end of February. They
16 stopped him, took his pistol, and then gave it back. It was four armed
17 and masked men who stopped him, asked him where he lived and things like
18 that. They searched him and found the pistol. They gave it back but
19 made him sign a paper saying they had given the gun back and didn't give
20 him a hard time. It happened in Gllogjan" --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
22 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, too fast.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You say that you are reading slowly, but please
25 MR. EMMERSON: I'll let the translators catch up.
1 Q. "It happened in Gllogjan at half past 11.00 at night. They
2 spoke Albanian, not the Siptar used in these parts. We all speak Siptar,
3 but they talked like they do in Albania. They asked their chief: 'Do we
4 give him his gun back?' The chief stood in the dark wearing a mask.
5 They gave my son his gun and ammunition, a cigarette to light up, and
6 wished him God speed. Then he signed. He had to write everything down
7 in Albanian and sign."
8 That is what your mother is recorded as having told a person who
9 interviewed her on the 9th of April of 1998, Mr. Stojanovic. She -- I
10 think you will --
11 A. I made a statement to the police about this incident. I never
12 spoke to journalists about this. As to what my mother said, well, that
13 is something that you should perhaps ask her. What I said here is
14 identical in every respect to the statement that I had made to the
15 police. So what I'm saying is they never mistreated me. They made me
16 write this one; one of them dictated the statement to me. The crux of
17 the matter being I was not mistreated on that particular occasion. They
18 didn't find a gun on me for the simple reason that I had none on me.
19 Q. Did you discuss what had happened to you with your mother?
20 A. No, no, I didn't. My mother was often left on her own, and I
21 didn't want to cause her to feel more fear than was strictly necessary.
22 Q. Do you know where she could have got all the details in this
23 account about masked men offering you a packet of cigarettes, requiring
24 you to sign a piece of paper, requiring you to write in Albanian, and so
25 forth? Do you know where she might have got all that kind of information
1 if she didn't get it from you?
2 A. I don't know. I suppose I'll need to ask her, shan't I? I
3 didn't know about this at all.
4 Q. But can you help us about this? Why would your mother ever think
5 that you had a pistol in your car at any time if, as you tell us, it was
6 her pistol and was always left at home?
7 A. Sir, the only gun in that house belonged to her. I was on two
8 separate occasions, actually, licensed to go and buy myself a gun, but I
9 never did. Those were peaceful times. I didn't think that I would ever
10 need one.
11 Q. No, but my question, Mr. Stojanovic, is this: If it was her gun
12 and you never took it away from the home, can you think of any reason why
13 your mother would be under the impression that you could have had a
14 pistol in your car when you were stopped?
15 A. As I said, this is probably something that you will need to raise
16 with her. I never discussed this with her, nor indeed did I know about
17 this. First I hear of it, in fact.
18 Q. You told us your mother was -- also kept a rifle in the house.
19 Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, correct, a hunting rifle.
21 Q. Did you have ammunition for the pistol at the house? Your mother
22 refers to ammunition in the report. Did you have ammunition for the
23 pistol at the house?
24 A. I'm sure we did, but I'm not positive. Truth to tell, I wasn't
25 really interested at all. I had been on great terms with all those who
1 later punished me. I never needed to have any weapon on me or
3 Q. Let me move on, Mr. Stojanovic, to another related topic. In the
4 statement that you made to the Prosecution in May 2002, you said that
5 during January and February 1998, you and your family noticed a lot of
6 trucks coming and going from the Haradinaj family compound. Can I ask
7 you this: Did you ever pass that information on to the police, about the
8 coming and going of these trucks to your neighbour's house?
9 A. No, no. Why would I do anything like that?
10 Q. What about your brother Predrag, the police officer, did you
11 never discuss it with him?
12 A. My brother Predrag wasn't working in the area. I don't think he
13 could have been involved.
14 Q. But you never discussed with him the fact that there were --
15 there was a build-up of trucks going backwards and forwards to your
16 neighbours, the Haradinajs?
17 A. What on earth for? I didn't know what was inside that truck.
18 Q. I see. Well, we'll come to that in just a moment.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Can we please call up Defence identification
21 Q. And, Mr. Stojanovic, this is an aerial photo directly over your
22 house and the Haradinaj compound, so that we can see exactly what the
23 relationship between the two is.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D24,
1 marked for identification.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. This is a fairly recent photograph. And if we look to the bottom
5 left of that picture, can you see that building which is in ruins,
6 Mr. Stojanovic?
7 A. Which one do you mean, the largest one or the one over here?
8 Q. Let me just orientate you for a moment. You can see the road
9 running vertically on the left-hand side of the photograph from the top
10 to the bottom. Can you see that road; yes?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you can see the road that branches off to the right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And at the end of that road, I'm going to suggest to you that is
15 the Haradinaj family compound, although as you've rightly pointed out
16 earlier on this afternoon, part of it has been built on since you lived
17 there. Now, you've told us about two other buildings that were on the
18 Haradinaj --
19 A. I said "if." I said "if," if this is the house, then it must
20 have been built on. It wasn't as big as this. It did have a top floor,
21 but it wasn't quite as spick-and-span as it looked to me in that
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you're right, you said "if," but the
24 Chamber learned from the parties that, as a matter of fact, the house was
25 extended. So therefore, Mr. Emmerson puts this to you not because you
1 said so but because this information reached the Chamber.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. Just to be clear, so that you can remind yourself,
5 Mr. Stojanovic, if you see the large building, the -- it -- roughly
6 halfway along it is a line in white at an angle, and everything above
7 that line was built after you last lived there, but everything below that
8 white line, so roughly half of the building, the bottom half as it shows
9 on the photograph, was in the same position at the time that you lived
10 there. You would agree with that?
11 A. In the previous photograph, I would be able to tell you precisely
12 what was there and what was not; on the one that we saw today, I could
13 tell you exactly what was there.
14 Q. We can very happily look at that photograph in a little while. I
15 just want to get your orientation for the purposes of these questions.
16 The other two buildings that are shown just either side of that winding
17 road, you told us that there were two other buildings on the Haradinaj
18 family property; one which had been built 20 or 30 years ago, and one
19 which was newer. At the bottom of the two, I suggest, is the one that
20 had been built 20 or 30 years ago and was nearer to your property;
22 A. Just a moment, just a moment. And the third one, and the third
23 barn, too. So three buildings existed at Haxhi Haradinaj's property and
24 Ermin's was next to it.
25 Q. I understand that, Mr. Stojanovic, I'm not contradicting you.
1 And the smaller building up towards the top of the photograph above the
2 windy road, that was there at that time as well, was it?
3 A. Well, whose house is it because I can't really discern it now.
4 Q. Very well. Well, I'm not going to give evidence about that,
5 Mr. Stojanovic. Towards the bottom of the picture, towards the bottom of
6 the picture -- Mr. Stojanovic, towards the bottom of the picture, if you
7 can see to the left-hand side is the -- is a building or the ruins of a
8 building by the road. Do you see that, the bottom left-hand side of the
10 A. Yes. I can see the ruins, yes.
11 Q. And that, I suggest, is the position at which your family home
12 stood in 1998?
13 A. Well, it -- well, maybe, given its condition because I'm sure
14 that your client protected it.
15 Q. Well, I think we don't need to bandy remarks like that, Mr.
16 Stojanovic, when all of the buildings in that area were destroyed in the
17 course of the war. So perhaps we can keep ourselves to the questions
18 that we're asking and answering?
19 A. Yes, but his was not, and now when I see what he done to my house
20 I have to say things like that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I do understand what makes you make
22 these kind of observations, but the Chamber would very much like to --
23 you to answer the questions put to you by Mr. Emmerson. Please try to
24 focus on that.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. And this lower row of bushes, Mr. Stojanovic, that we can see at
5 an angle going down towards the bottom right-hand corner of the
6 photograph, that's the border of your property, isn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Just so that we can get a sense, it's -- of the distance between
9 the two, your property extended right up to the edge of where those
10 bushes appear?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The police during this time were visiting your home twice a week,
13 weren't they?
14 A. The police did not come to my house. They passed by the road, so
15 the information you had is correct. They would pass by. We were the
16 only Serb house in the area and they would stop by, talk to us, ask us if
17 anything was amiss, if anyone was mistreating us, and I was the man of
18 the house and it was my duty - it was our custom - for me to invite them
19 into the house to offer them coffee and I would do the same thing to my
20 Albanian neighbours. This is what I did on a daily basis.
21 Q. Did they not ask you at any time to report anything suspicious
22 that you'd seen, being so close to the Haradinaj family home?
23 A. Well, sir, if they had asked us to report this and if this had
24 been done on time, none of this would have happened. Nobody asked me to
25 do that at all.
1 Q. You mentioned earlier in your evidence somebody called Miloica
2 Vlahovic. You know Miloica Vlahovic, do you?
3 A. Milovan Vlahovic, I don't recall ever having mention -- mentioned
4 someone by the name of Miloica.
5 Q. My fault then. Do you know Miloica Vlahovic, Mr. Stojanovic? He
6 used to be the teacher in the area. He's the son of Milovan Vlahovic?
7 A. I knew Milovan, I didn't know Miloica. The late Milovan, I
8 attended his funeral.
9 Q. May I be absolutely clear that I've got my pronunciation right.
10 Did you know any of the sons of the family?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. Which of the Vlahovic sons did you know?
13 A. All of them, all of them.
14 Q. So there may be a pronunciation problem on my part. Did you know
15 Miloica Vlahovic, their son?
16 A. Yes, I do know Miloica.
17 Q. And he was a teacher, wasn't he?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. He's given evidence to this Tribunal, Mr. Stojanovic, that your
20 mother, Ljubica, was the first person to discover the fact that there was
21 a KLA military training going on, including weapons training in Gllogjan?
22 Did -- you're smiling. I'm giving you an indication, Mr. Stojanovic, of
23 evidence that's been given on oath by Miloica Vlahovic. I want to
24 understand whether or not your mother ever discussed with you, as she had
25 apparently done with him, that she had discovered the fact that there was
1 KLA training going on in Gllogjan.
2 A. I really don't know what Miloica said, and my mother is an
3 elderly woman. At that time, she was 60, 65 years old. She was working
4 the land. She didn't have any education to speak of, and she was the
5 last person on earth to discover things and to know what was going on,
6 what was not going on. So I really don't know what to tell you on this
8 Q. May I ask you this: He's also given evidence that from some very
9 considerable distance away, it was possible to hear the sound of shooting
10 from January onwards intermittently from Gllogjan. Now, you were very
11 close, Mr. Stojanovic, did you hear shooting coming from Gllogjan between
12 January and the 24th of March?
13 A. Yes, shooting could be heard, but there were some attacks. But
14 let me state right at the beginning, I didn't see anything at night.
15 There would be attacks on the police station at 8.00 or 9.00. We could
16 hear the gun-fire because the police station was uphill in Rznic, and you
17 could hear sound from quite a distance at night. And I really couldn't
18 tell you what I saw, what I heard, because we would mostly then hear in
19 the media the next day there would be reports that there had been an
20 attack on a police station or something like that. But I can confirm
21 that there was gun-fire, we could hear gun-fire.
22 Q. And any gun-fire from the area around the Haradinaj compound at
24 A. The station was not at the Haradinajs' house or my house. It was
25 5 -- 4 or 5 kilometres away from our house; that's where the gun-fire was
1 coming from. So I can't say that it was really very close. And that was
2 up until the 18th of March, or rather, until the 18th of March I didn't
3 hear any gun-fire coming from Haradinaj -- the Haradinaj house.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The answer was not quite
6 MR. EMMERSON:
7 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, did you have a telephone in the house?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What sort of phone was it, can I ask?
10 A. It was a cordless phone, or rather, a mobile phone because there
11 were no telephone lines to the -- in the village. So it was a mobile
12 phone or a cordless phone. Most of my neighbours had one of those. A
13 lot of us had such telephones.
14 Q. Can you now remember when you first acquired a mobile telephone
15 in the house?
16 A. It was not a mobile phone; it was a cordless phone. There is a
17 difference there.
18 Q. Then it may be helpful --
19 A. I think it was five or six years -- it was five or six years
20 before the 18th or the 24th of March. I don't really remember that.
21 Q. I'm sorry to ask you any further questions about this. It may
22 seem a very small matter, but can I just understand. You say it wasn't a
23 mobile phone, it was a cordless phone. What exactly do you mean?
24 A. It's a phone that gets hooked up on the line in the -- in the
25 town, and then you can carry it around, around your house, the headset.
1 You can carry the headset with you and then -- it's practically like an
2 ordinary telephone, for all intents and purposes. It's -- there were a
3 lot of such phones in Kosovo in that period.
4 Q. And just to be clear, where was your telephone hooked up?
5 A. Djakovica.
6 Q. Where in Djakovica?
7 A. A friend of mine, Bulatovic, it was in his house. I used his
9 Q. And the -- the range spread from Djakovica to Gllogjan, to
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I see the time --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Emmerson, I was just asking your attention.
14 Mr. Emmerson, it would certainly assist the Chamber if you make any
15 reference to testimony by other witnesses to give us the --
16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm very happy to do that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- day and the page, so that we can follow what
18 you're referring to.
19 MR. EMMERSON: I'll give Your Honour a list of the relevant
20 passages during the course of the afternoon.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 We'll have a break now for 20 minutes. We'll resume at five
23 minutes past 6.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 --- On resuming at 6.10 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Two procedural matters before we continue. First of
3 all, the Defence is informed that the Chamber is inclined to grant the
4 partly confidential request for videolink and has the following on its
5 mind, that -- yes, I don't think, as a matter of fact, that we have to go
6 into private session for this, but the issue is that -- well, perhaps
7 just out of an abundance of caution, perhaps we should do. It will not
8 take very long.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 1956-1957 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 One of the issues still not finally decided was the nonsitting
8 days, and I do understand that everyone would very much like to know. It
9 has to do with -- to some extent with normal breaks as every Chamber has,
10 also the nonavailability of some of the Judges during all of the days.
11 Now, let me tell you what we have decided for sure. The first
12 two dates, for the 29th and the 30th of March, the Chamber has decided
13 that on the 29th, that's Thursday, if there is a witness which we would
14 not start a witness on Wednesday and half an hour before -- before
15 adjourning, but if there would be a witness who needs another half an
16 hour or an hour -- one hour and a half, one session, so relatively short,
17 we'll do that on Thursday. So, therefore, we are not sitting if we
18 have -- but we are not going to keep a witness here for quite a lot of
19 days, that would be Thursday, Friday -- five days just to have another
20 half an hour or one hour, one hour and a half of examination. So
21 therefore, the 29th is -- depends on the situation.
22 The 30th, then, we'll not be sitting. Then the 6th and the 9th
23 of April are UN holidays. The 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th of April, we'll
24 not sit. Then the 30th of April is a UN holiday, and we will not sit on
25 the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th of May.
1 25th of May is a Friday, there it also will depend on whether
2 there's any witness waiting or not. The same is true for the 8th of
3 June, so we might not sit, but if there's a good reason to -- to not keep
4 a witness for the whole of the weekend, just for one hour less -- one
5 hour left, then we might sit on the 25th of May, the 8th of June.
6 Then the 23rd -- the week of the 23rd until the 27th of July,
7 that's the last week before the recess, we will not sit.
8 So uncertain at this moment is the 29th of March, that is this
9 Thursday; the 25th of May; and the 8th of June, these are, I would call
10 it, flexible days. If we would sit on these days, the Chamber would not
11 sit in its normal composition. It would be then two Judges rather than
13 Is there any -- is this clear to everyone?
14 Then, Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness into -- yes,
15 Mr. -- I take it that --
16 MR. EMMERSON: There's no problem at all.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No problem. Yes.
18 MR. EMMERSON: First of all, I'm sure you'll -- I'm very grateful
19 for the clarification in that respect. Your Honour asked me before the
20 break for a transcript reference in respect to the passages that have
21 been put to the witness. It was from the evidence of Miloica Vlahovic.
22 It was page 1571, lines 19 to 22. He was asked to give specific examples
23 of people who had been saying that there was a training ground in
24 Gllogjan and replied: "For example, Ljubica Stojanovic from Dubrava, she
25 was the first to find out about the training ground. Dubrava and
1 Gllogjan are two neighbouring villages. They are adjacent."
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. EMMERSON: That was the quotation.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.
6 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
8 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, I just wanted to come back for a moment to this
9 question about your mother's gun and you mentioned the hunting rifle. I
10 wanted to just ask you about one matter. When you made your statement on
11 the 26th of May, 2006, you referred to an article about your case in a
12 Serbian magazine called "Illustrojana Politika, and the article had been
13 published on the 24th of April, a few days after the incident on the 18th
14 of April. And, presumably, you'd read that article?
15 A. I referred to an article? I didn't do that.
16 Q. Well, there is a reference in your witness statement --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- in which the following passage appears: "I hand over to
19 Mr. Matti Raatikainen a Serbian magazine "Illustrojana Politika" from the
20 25th of April, 1998 with an article about our case." In other words, you
21 are recorded as having given that article to the investigator. Do you
22 recall that?
23 A. Just a moment, let me make this clear. My brother had the
24 papers. He gave the statement the first day, and then on the second or
25 on the third day -- well, it doesn't matter anyway. We didn't give our
1 statements over a single day. So he gave -- handed over the newspaper
2 because I didn't have it.
3 Q. Very well. It's possible then that the person concerned made an
4 error in that respect, but you -- can I ask you, please, just to look and
5 see if you recognise the article?
6 MR. EMMERSON: We have it on the system, but I think it's easier
7 to hand it to the witness in paper. For the e-court, it is Rule 65 ter
8 Exhibit Number 21, in English and in Serbian.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Madam Registrar, and that would be number ...?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D25,
12 marked for identification.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 MR. EMMERSON:
15 Q. Now, Mr. Stojanovic, I've marked a passage for you to look at.
16 MR. EMMERSON: We have an English translation perhaps we could
17 call up for -- on the screen, and in English should be linked to it.
18 Sorry, do we have the English translation?
19 Do Your Honours have the English translation on the screen?
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think I have 25th of April, 1998 --
21 MR. EMMERSON: Correct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- headline, "Metohija, When They Were Taken" --
23 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly, exactly. Could Your Honours turn to the
24 second page of that English translation.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I have to change something to get -- to
1 manipulate it. Yes, I've got it.
2 MR. EMMERSON: And to a paragraph beginning: "They could be good
3 friends ..."
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. EMMERSON: The second main paragraph and to the last five
6 lines of that paragraph.
7 And does Your Honour see a sentence beginning: "There was a
8 time" --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. EMMERSON:
11 Q. Now, Mr. Stojanovic, this article contains two lengthy interviews
12 which are direct quotation of interviews with your mother and your
13 brother Mijat, and the passage I've marked for you on the Serbian
14 original, can you find the following words, please:
15 "There was a time when I kept a rifle strapped over my shoulder
16 and slept like that, keeping watch over my children. There was a place
17 at the window from where I could take aim when they called out to me and
18 threatened me. They would do it to me and I would do it to them."
19 That is a quotation attributed to your mother. Do you have that
20 in the original?
21 A. Well, it's not a problem. Just read it out.
22 Q. I'll read it to you again:
23 "There was a time when I kept a rifle strapped over my shoulder
24 and slept like that, keeping watch over my children. There was a place
25 at the window from where I could take aim when they called out to me and
1 threatened me. They would do it to me and I would do it to them."
2 Do you remember your mother using a rifle from a particular
3 position at the house and aiming at people?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You told us that it was just a hunting rifle. Do you want to
6 reconsider --
7 A. Just an ordinary hunting rifle.
8 Q. Did you ever see anybody pointing it at anybody?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Well, I want to move then if I can, please, to some questions
11 about what happened on the 24th of March. You've told us that your
12 mother called you home from work that day. Can you just clarify for us,
13 please, when you arrived at your home, which members of your family were
14 already there?
15 A. I've already said this, but let me repeat. My mother, my
16 brother's small child, and my sister, and myself, we arrived; and then
17 later during the day Mijat arrived, too. So that was during the day. I
18 don't know the exact time, because he had gone away to sell this paint.
19 Q. Yes, it may be my mistake. I don't remember you mentioning
20 Mijat --
21 A. Just a moment. I may have forgotten to mention him, but at that
22 time, at any rate, he was not there when I arrived. He may have arrived
23 later. And as for this article that you just quoted to me, I was in
24 hospital when this was published, so I don't really know much about that.
25 As far as I can remember, I was in hospital at the time.
1 Q. Now, you say that Mijat came later on the 24th of March. Do you
2 remember --
3 A. Yes, during the day.
4 Q. Do you remember how long after you arrived it was that Mijat
6 A. I think it was in the afternoon. I don't know exactly. I can't
7 really give you an idea as to when it was that he came.
8 Q. And your young nephew, was that your brother Vladimir's son?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you see Vladimir at the house that day?
11 A. He had arrived from Decani, because later on my mother called
12 him, the baby was crying, so he got the baby and drove it back to Decani
13 where he lived, just in order to get the baby away from there.
14 Q. So how long was your brother Vladimir at the property on the 24th
15 of March, for roughly how long?
16 A. Vladimir stayed for under half an hour, I'd say.
17 Q. I see. And so that I'm clear, are you saying that Vladimir was
18 not there when you arrived back at the house?
19 A. What do you mean when I arrived back?
20 Q. When you arrived back at the house from work, are you saying
21 Vladimir was not there at that time?
22 A. Vladimir came. After I came, he had driven the baby to Decani.
23 It wasn't before me that he came, it was after me. I was at the house
24 when my mother called him and told him to come and get the baby.
25 Q. And can you give us an approximate time for that, Mr. Stojanovic?
1 A. I'd be hard-put to remember exactly, but I think about midday.
2 MR. EMMERSON: Could we look, please, at Rule 65 ter number 1162.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D26,
5 marked for identification.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 MR. EMMERSON:
8 Q. Whilst that document is being brought up, Mr. Stojanovic, can I
9 ask you one or two other questions? Don't worry about it for just a
11 You were -- were asked by Mr. Re on Friday about what had taken
12 place that day, and at one point you said that there was fighting going
13 on. And Mr. Re asked you who the fighting was between, and you told us
14 that there was shooting coming from the Haradinaj house. And you were
15 asked again who was it between, and you said being a civilian, you were
16 barred from going outside.
17 Now, I just want to be clear, and for anyone's note that's at
18 transcript 83, line 20. Can I just be clear about this,
19 Mr. Stojanovic --
20 A. Just a minute, just a minute. I didn't say it was between
22 Q. No --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. That's true. As a
25 civilian, it was impossible to go out. As for the police and the
1 Haradinajs, who exactly was involved, now that is not something that I
2 can say. I'm certain that they were civilians, though.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. Yes --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, we can consult the system but only in
6 the continued paging, not 83 --
7 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- that's of the day, but I'll find it --
9 MR. EMMERSON: It's not -- I think if I can just clarify it with
10 the witness what his evidence is, it may resolve the problem, and I think
11 you may --
12 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that the Judges are working from different
13 systems, but okay, fine.
14 MR. EMMERSON:
15 Q. It may be, Mr. Stojanovic, that there was a problem in
16 translating the question to you a moment ago. I wasn't suggesting to you
17 that you had ever said that there was fighting between civilians. What I
18 suggested to you was that you had told us that being a civilian, you were
19 prevented from going outside; and that is what you told us, isn't it?
20 A. That's right. Only to my yard where my livestock was, out there,
21 around the house, right there. No further.
22 Q. Just pause for a moment. Can we be clear, though, you knew,
23 didn't you, that during the day there was fighting going on between
24 people in the Haradinaj compound, on the one hand, and police on the
25 other; that it was police who were engaged in a gun-battle. You knew
1 that, didn't you?
2 A. I saw that.
3 Q. You knew that the police were on your property firing rockets and
4 guns towards the Haradinaj family compound, from your property, didn't
6 A. Yes, but there were no rockets because that's the interpretation
7 that I'm receiving. Rockets were fired on my house from the Haradinaj
8 household, and there was shooting on both sides.
9 Q. You just told us a moment ago, you couldn't see what was going on
10 outside. Are you telling us now that you know the police did not fire
11 rockets towards the Haradinaj house? How would you know that?
12 A. Well, that side, you see. Try to picture my terrace, my house,
13 which was the place that I was looking out from. There's an open view of
14 both the Haradinajs' houses. Later on, after the police had left, I was
15 unable to see anything, but for as long as they were around the yard and
16 in the area, I did see things, yes.
17 Q. I see. So now you're telling us, are you, you were able to see
18 the police action from your yard in detail throughout? Is that your
20 A. Just a minute. Not this entire time, and not in detail. There
21 is my terrace, and you can only see so far. And then later, the police
22 drove them back past their houses and on to the village. The village is
23 quite far away, there is a lot of shrubbery in the area, the photograph
24 clearly shows that, and over there you can't see a thing. The only thing
25 you can hear is the sounds of shooting and firing.
1 Q. Yes. Let's just concentrate on what you could see,
2 Mr. Stojanovic. You knew --
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't catch the witness's
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please repeat what you just said,
6 Mr. Stojanovic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm only telling you what I was
8 able to see from my terrace or what was before.
9 MR. EMMERSON:
10 Q. Well, let's just be clear. You knew that there were large
11 numbers of police officers inside your property shooting from your
12 property towards the Haradinaj compound, didn't you?
13 A. There were police on my property, but not just on my property.
14 They were along the road, too, and on all the contiguous properties.
15 Deraj Maljoka's [phoen] meadow, for example, when I drove up there I saw
16 it, so the police were not just on my property.
17 Q. Your property, though, was the nearest property to the
18 Haradinajs' property, wasn't it, Mr. Stojanovic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that's where the largest concentration of police officers
21 took up position to attack the compound, wasn't it?
22 A. No, no. The largest concentration was not -- rather, there were
23 police officers. But the largest concentration surely -- not surely, I'm
24 telling you about what I saw. They were by the road-side in ditches
25 along the road, and that was where they took cover or whatever they
1 called it.
2 Q. How many of them were on your property that you saw?
3 A. I didn't exactly count them, but I'd say between 10 and 15 or
4 thereabouts. I can't say.
5 Q. And can I ask you this: Are you continuing to say that you are
6 sure that the officers on your property did not shoot rockets from your
7 property on to the Haradinajs' compound?
8 A. Those in front, those that I could see, no, they were not.
9 Q. And were there other soldiers or paramilitaries or police
10 officers on your property that you couldn't see?
11 A. I didn't notice any on that day. They were all in blue uniforms,
12 so ...
13 Q. Were you able to see all of them from where you were?
14 A. Not quite all.
15 Q. And so that we're clear, you mentioned two rockets being shot
16 towards your property from the Haradinaj compound, one of which fell
17 short and one of which missed. Can we be clear about this, those rockets
18 were shot -- those rockets were shot after the police had begun to fire
19 at the Haradinaj compound from your property, weren't they?
20 A. I wasn't at home when the police opened fire. Once I got there,
21 the shooting was already in progress. By the time I got there, the
22 police were there --
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the last part of
24 the answer.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was upon my arrival that the two
1 shells were fired. One shell hit the plum tree. There was an orchard
2 with plum trees next to our yard. And the other just whizzed past and
3 exploded between the two buildings, in the space between these two
4 buildings, or rather, it never exploded.
5 MR. EMMERSON:
6 Q. So my question, Mr. Stojanovic, and if you could just see if you
7 can just concentrate on the actual question I'm asking you, is by the
8 time those rockets were shot towards your property, the police on your
9 property were already firing at the Haradinaj property, weren't they?
10 A. There was firing, yes.
11 Q. Can we look, please, at the second page of this statement from
12 your brother Vladimir Stojanovic, and I'll read you the relevant
13 passages. And I just want to see if it jogs your memory at all about who
14 was there first that day.
15 MR. EMMERSON: If we could just enlarge it slightly in the
16 English --
17 Q. And then I shall read it to you. He says -- and this is a
18 statement of an interview with your brother that took place on the 9th of
19 April, just two weeks after this event.
20 He says: "It happened on Tuesday, the 24th of March this year.
21 My brother and mother were in Dubrava, and I took my 4-year-old son over
22 there. I got the tractor out to do some ploughing, but the work didn't
23 go too good and I went back to the house. All of a sudden, I heard
24 gun-fire. I told my mother and the others to get inside the house."
25 I pause there. Do you think it's right, in fact --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I had a different text, "... get
2 inside at once" it says.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I do apologise, it's my misreading.
4 Q. Let me just put that again: "I told my mother and others to get
5 inside at once."
6 Can I be clear, and perhaps this helps you with your memory, was
7 in fact your brother Vladimir there at the time when the gun-fire first
9 A. I think not. Excuse me, who gave this statement and just where?
10 Q. Your brother gave it. It -- sorry?
11 A. To whom and where?
12 Q. Your -- well, we're reversing roles a little but let me answer
13 your questions anyway. Your brother gave it to somebody called
14 Marijana Andjelkovic, who wrote his words down verbatim on the 9th of
15 April during an interview which took place, as you can see from the
16 records, in Decani.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Verbatim is perhaps not --
18 MR. EMMERSON: No, there is evidence from Marijana Andjelkovic
19 that she took it down verbatim.
20 MR. RE: Perhaps if my learned friend can point us to the
21 transcript reference.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I can certainly do that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: At least a statement was taken by -- by this lady,
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. EMMERSON:
2 Q. And if we just go down -- if we just go down a little further to
3 the following paragraph and the beginning of that:
4 "We called Decani on the radio phone we have in the house, but
5 they had already been informed about what was going on. It was exactly
6 10.30 a.m."
7 Do you see that?
8 A. Yes, I do, although truth to tell I can't read English.
9 Q. "Those in the neighbour's house fired five or six rockets and
10 hand-launchers at the car and blazed away at it with machine-guns. The
11 shooting lasted for about 15 minutes. Then the police arrived and came
12 into our yard from where they opened fire at the Haradinaj house, in
13 which there were UCK soldiers. When the police in our yard started
14 shooting, they fired twice out of hand-launchers at our house; one missed
15 and the other landed in some branches and went off."
16 Do you see that? Do you understand the passage that I'm --
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I think there is no Serbian text --
18 MR. EMMERSON: No, I can see the witness seeking to --
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: To try to understand.
20 MR. EMMERSON:
21 Q. Can we be clear, Mr. Stojanovic, are you receiving the
22 translation? Do you follow what I'm saying to you?
23 A. Yes, yes, I was just looking at the statement.
24 Q. Do you read English?
25 A. No, no. I was just looking at the Decani bit because that's what
1 I wanted to know about.
2 Q. The point is your brother is recorded there as saying that it was
3 when the police started shooting that rockets were fired in the direction
4 of your property, and that one missed and the other landed in some
5 branches and went off. Does that accord with your recollection?
6 A. I don't think I was ever saying that the rocket had been fired
7 before. What I said is by the time I got there, there was shooting
8 between the two sides, and then the rocket came flying in. There was
9 firing throughout, and that's what I've been saying. And when I
10 arrived -- the rocket was fired after I had arrived, but I wasn't there
11 throughout. I arrived later. I had been at work in Decani.
12 Q. And that night you spent, you told us, at your brother Predrag's
13 apartment. Is that right?
14 A. No. You mean, when we left the village?
15 Q. That night. You told us you left on the 24th of March.
16 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, when we left.
17 Q. And over the days that followed, did you learn more about what
18 had happened on the 24th of March in the village of Gllogjan itself and
19 in the nearby village of Irzniq?
20 A. The next day, I arrived in my house, on my own, which is what I
21 said. I came to my house -- to my yard on my own.
22 Q. Let me put some specific things to you and ask you to respond to
23 them. Did you discover over the days that followed, that the police
24 operation in the village of Gllogjan that day had resulted in the death
25 of three teenage civilians or three teenage Albanians? Let me put it
1 that way. Did you learn that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you learn that police in the village of Gllogjan had launched
4 mortar attacks on some of the civilian properties in the village?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you see the damage for yourself in Gllogjan at any point,
7 Mr. Stojanovic, because there was damage, wasn't there?
8 A. I hadn't been to the village myself, so I didn't look, but the
9 next day when I arrived back in my yard, I saw the journalists arrive and
10 film my house and Ramush's house, among others. But my house, Ramush's
11 house, or Haxhija's house were not damaged, those were the ones that I
12 could see; as for the rest of the village, I really can't say.
13 Q. I see. Well, I'm going to suggest to you that the Haradinaj
14 house was damaged -- I'm going to suggest to you that the Haradinaj house
15 was damaged and was damaged by rocket fire launched from your property.
16 A. I'm positive that it wasn't, and there's footage to show that.
17 I'm not sure if it was the next evening or the second-next evening,
18 there's the RTS news, there was footage shown of Ramush's house and the
19 weapons found inside the house and uniforms. I personally watched this
20 on RTS, their second evening news programme that night. The house was
21 intact. All I could see was a house which was intact. That applied to
22 his house, to my house, and to Haxhija's house. All of those were
23 intact. As for the other houses in the village, now that is not
24 something that I can address.
25 Q. You told us yesterday -- I'm sorry, you told us on Friday, I
1 think, that people from the Haradinaj family were showing these
2 journalists around and showing them the houses, and that somebody who you
3 said was a painter by trade but was taking photographs --
4 A. No, no, no, no. The decorator. When we say decorator, that
5 means he was a photographer. A photographer, okay, that's the word I was
6 looking for. Cacaj from Decani, yes, I sort of knew him.
7 Q. So it was a photographer, and people from the Haradinaj family,
8 you say - although not Ramush - were showing this photographer their
9 buildings. Is that right?
10 A. No, I didn't see Ramush, but there were plenty of other people,
11 too. It was quite well organised.
12 Q. From what you could see, what was it about the buildings on the
13 Haradinaj compound that they were directing the photographer's attention
15 A. After the photographs had been taken, I read the article, and I
16 learned that, as you suggest, those two or three men had been killed. It
17 was in "Zeri Rinis," it was in "Rilindja," in all these newspapers.
18 There were these articles.
19 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, one of the statements that your mother has made
20 refers to some newspaper articles that she read, in which she said that
21 the newspapers were writing that she had been informing the police about
22 movements on the Haradinaj compound. She's quoted as having said that
23 she read that in the newspapers, Mr. Stojanovic.
24 Now, can we be clear about this, did you know that there was a
25 perception in Gllogjan that you and your family were responsible for
1 providing information which resulted in the attack on the village that
2 day? Did you know that was a perception in the village?
3 A. First and foremost, that is not true at all. My mother was never
4 anyone's informer ever. I underline that, not ever. Everybody can
5 continue to think whatever they like. She's just a simple country woman
6 who wanted to preserve her own household and her property.
7 On top of that, she, as a woman, had no idea what the men were
8 about doing, regardless of whether we're talking about Dubrava or any
9 other village. It was some sort of an unwritten law. Men and women were
10 never, or almost never, together at the same time in the same place.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Stojanovic, I'd like you to listen to my question
12 because I didn't ask you whether it was true. I read to you a passage
13 from a statement from your mother in which she refers to allegations in
14 the newspaper, and the question that I asked you was whether you knew
15 when you, for example, went back to Gllogjan, that people in that village
16 thought your family was responsible for the attack that had been launched
17 in Gllogjan on the 24th of March, whether you knew when you went to the
18 village that that was a perception that the villagers held about your
20 A. I didn't know.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, you told us, I think yesterday, that you were
22 aware of helicopters --
23 MR. EMMERSON: I see the time, Your Honours. I'm very close to
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please continue.
1 MR. EMMERSON:
2 Q. You told us yesterday you had seen some helicopters. Is that
4 A. Yes, two of them.
5 Q. Did you later hear that those helicopters had been used to spray
6 bullets at civilians in the areas of Irzniq and Gllogjan?
7 A. Once they had infiltrated that police officer, the helicopters
8 were gone; they took them back to Pristina. A helicopter is not silent
9 enough for one not to hear it flying that nearby.
10 Q. Did you hear allegations at any point that helicopters had been
11 used to shoot at civilians?
12 MR. RE: Before the witness answers, could -- maybe Mr. Emmerson
13 could clarify exactly when he's talking about?
14 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I said "at any time."
15 MR. RE: Well, the question a moment ago was: "Did you later
16 hear that those helicopters had been using bullets at civilians?" It's
17 quite important for the progress of the case.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- did you ever hear anything about
19 these helicopters being used for firing at civilians?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Did I hear it; no, I didn't. Did I
21 see it; no, I didn't either. Perhaps they did, for all I know, but I
22 didn't actually see them.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But the question is whether you ever heard such a
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes [as interpreted].
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
2 MR. EMMERSON:
3 Q. Did you hear an allegation, Mr. Stojanovic, that teachers and
4 children in the school had been detained and then used as human shields
5 by the police, the children in the school? Did you hear that allegation?
6 A. No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think there's a -- might be a mistake on the
8 transcript. I think the witness answered my question in the negative;
9 whereas it appears as "yes" on the screen.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I think that's definitely correct.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Line 20.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
13 MR. EMMERSON:
14 Q. In relation to the school, Mr. Stojanovic, I'm going to read to
15 you a passage from a record of an interview with your mother by the same
16 person who interviewed her on the 9th of April, in which it's recorded
17 that she said that her son Predrag took part in the action in Gllogjan
18 and that he entered the school.
19 Now, can I ask you this: Did you know whether Predrag took part
20 in the police action in Gllogjan?
21 A. No, I didn't see him that day.
22 Q. But you saw him that night, though, didn't you? You stayed the
23 night with him?
24 A. That's true, but this is not the sort of thing that Predrag is
25 likely to share with me. He doesn't share any of his police work with
1 me, nor would I ever think to ask him.
2 Q. So you spent the night of the 24th of March with your brother
3 Predrag after these events had taken place at your home. Is it your
4 evidence that you didn't discuss what had happened that day with him?
5 A. Just a minute, please. It wasn't that night. I arrived about
6 12.00 or 1.00. They had held us back, wanting us to make statements
7 about what had occurred, and it wasn't before we had given those
8 statements that they allowed us to leave, the SUP, I mean. So I spent
9 the night at his wife's and children's. He arrived later, so --
10 MR. EMMERSON: I've got just two further questions on this if
11 that's --
12 JUDGE ORIE: If you can finish within two, three minutes.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Absolutely.
14 Q. Did you ever discuss those events with Predrag on the next day or
15 the days that followed, the events on the 24th of March?
16 A. Listen, I hadn't seen Predrag in a long time, and then the war
17 broke out. I was in hospital, and then after I had left hospital, he
18 spent quite a long time away from Decani; therefore, we didn't talk. And
19 to be quite frank, I didn't really want to know.
20 Q. So just to be clear, is it your evidence that between the 24th of
21 March and the 18th of April, when you were injured, you never discussed
22 with Predrag what had occurred on the 24th of March?
23 A. That's right. We didn't really see that much of each other
24 anyway, after that evening, after that night. We didn't see each other
25 at all, in fact.
1 Q. And do you know now whether he took part in the police action in
3 A. I know that he was a policeman, and this is something that I said
4 before, not just now, I don't mean just now. He was a police officer, as
5 many of our neighbours from Glodjane were. When Siptars were still
6 serving on that same police force, they all worked together.
7 Q. Yes. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.
9 Could I just get an impression on how much time the other counsel
10 would need?
11 Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: None.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
14 MR. HARVEY: No more than Mr. Guy-Smith.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no less either.
16 Then there was some merit in what Mr. Re said about verbatim.
17 What the witness said was about his interview, she said and it was about
18 firing rockets: "I don't recall that because I would have certainly
19 noted that. Most of the things, again I have to say I noted verbatim,"
20 that's not exactly the same as making it verbatim and apart from what
21 finally was put on paper, whether that was verbatim, yes or no, it was
22 about notes. So this being clarified. You find that on page 648, line
24 We -- before we adjourn, Mr. Stojanovic, I would like to instruct
25 you not to speak with anyone about your evidence. We'd like to see you
1 back --
2 Mr. Re, unless there would be no need for re-examination, because
3 I see that there's no further cross-examination --
4 MR. RE: Yes, I do have a little bit of re-examination.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
6 Yes. So tomorrow it will, most likely, not take very long
7 tomorrow, but we would like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00 in
8 this same courtroom, and you are again instructed not to speak with
9 anyone about the testimony you have already given or you're still about
10 to give.
11 We stand adjourned until tomorrow at 9.00.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of
14 March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.