1 Wednesday, 28 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 I think that the witness can be brought into the courtroom.
11 Meanwhile, Mr. Di Fazio, I think the re-arranged exhibits for
12 Witness Andjelkovic were expected yesterday, I think, and at quarter to
13 7.00 in the evening, nothing had been received yet.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, yes, I realise -- sorry, I didn't realise
15 that, Your Honour, and --
16 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you'll look after the matter.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll take care of it and make sure --
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's good.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: -- that the matter is attended to today.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, in the meantime, I just wanted to
22 inform you that there are some photographs that the Prosecution has
23 obtained and provided hard copy to the Defence.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 MR. DI FAZIO: And electronic copies are being provided to the
1 Defence as well, and we also have a set of hard copies for the
2 Trial Chamber, three, which are available for you to look at, if you
3 wish. They were obtained by Barney Kelly, one of our investigators, and
4 he has been ill and only came in yesterday following his mission. And I
5 only became aware of them last night.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll see the photographs, and we'll hear
7 whether there's any problem with the source of the photographs, yes or
9 Mr. Emmerson, I take it that you're ready to continue your
10 cross-examination, but I'll first tell the witness -- yes, Mr. --
11 MR. EMMERSON: Just before Your Honour does, there is one matter
12 I wanted to bring to Your Honour's attention in relation to a different
13 photographic exhibit --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. EMMERSON: -- arising from Your Honour's questions yesterday
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. EMMERSON: I have no objection to the witness having his
19 earphones on, but it is a matter which touches upon locations in
20 evidence. I have provided to the usher three hard copy photographs and
21 to the Prosecution. Your Honour asked for a marking of where
22 Smajl Haradinaj's house is.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Can I just orientate Your Honours on this
25 particular photograph?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. EMMERSON: On the bottom of the photograph Your Honours can
3 see just about the centre of the page, that is working from left to right
4 but at the bottom, the Haradinaj compound. Does Your Honour have that?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, bottom of the --
6 MR. EMMERSON: Just here.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, you put it like that.
8 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Right, yes. Yes, that's clear.
10 MR. EMMERSON: And so Your Honours can see the road --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. EMMERSON: -- up towards the main road into Gllogjan.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. EMMERSON: And then the dog's leg to the right into the
15 village --
16 JUDGE ORIE: It's perfectly clear.
17 MR. EMMERSON: I think the photo that Your Honours have and we
18 were looking at yesterday afternoon was probably taken from an aerial
19 position roughly above the blue circle looking --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as a matter of fact, I have reasons to
21 believe - but we'll check that - that the portion and with a blue circle
22 is, as a matter of fact, on one of the photographs.
23 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- because from what I remember it is, but at
25 least now we know -- I take it, Mr. Di Fazio, that if you would disagree
1 with this location of the -- of Smajl's house, that we'll hear from you.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Then, Mr. Emmerson, having dealt with this.
5 Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber meanwhile received photos on which it
6 can identify where exactly Smajl's house was, so you don't have to bother
7 about that anymore. Mr. Stojanovic, I'd like to remind you that you're
8 still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your
9 testimony, and Mr. Emmerson will now continue his cross-examination.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
12 I wonder if we could have Exhibit Rule 65 ter number 1146 back up
13 on the screen, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We still need to assign a number to that --
15 no, we have done that already. Then perhaps you can refer to it as -- I
16 think it is D28 -- D29.
17 MR. EMMERSON: D29.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 WITNESS: MIJAT STOJANOVIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson: [Continued]
22 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, have you had an opportunity to think overnight
23 about whether, in fact, you were interviewed by a lady from the
24 Humanitarian Law Centre on the 25th of April?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And having reflected on it, do you now accept that you were, in
2 fact, interviewed by that lady on that date?
3 A. I don't remember, but I don't think so. I don't think I was.
4 Q. Very well. Well, we have, as I indicated to you yesterday, a
5 record from that lady, who's given evidence about having interviewed you
6 and recorded what you said. And the statement that we're all looking at
7 contains an account which follows in most details or many details the
8 account which you have given us in evidence and is written as though it
9 were your words. So I'm going to ask you just one or two questions about
10 it, and we can consider the question of how it came to be made
12 I put to you yesterday afternoon that there was no mention in
13 that statement of Daut Haradinaj having entered your house with the men
14 you say came in first on the 18th of April. Do you recall now whether
15 you mentioned Daut Haradinaj at all to anyone at around this time as
16 having been present?
17 A. I think -- or at least, or rather, I'm sure that in the first
18 interview I gave to "Illustrojana Politika," I did mention this.
19 Q. But you've seen that interview, Mr. Stojanovic. Your words are
20 recorded in detail and in quotations, and though names are mentioned,
21 there is no mention of Daut Haradinaj having been present?
22 A. As far as I was able to see yesterday, the interview - it's been
23 a long time - this interview was not published in its entirety at all.
24 Q. The record of the interview between you and the lady from the
25 Humanitarian Law Centre ends with the following words which I'm going to
1 read to you.
2 "90 per cent of them," that is the men who had been involved in
3 this incident, "90 per cent of them were in uniform and had small arms.
4 They took their masks off. None of them kept his mask on. They were
5 mostly my neighbours, guys I went to school with, kept company with,
6 shopped in their stores, so I know 95 per cent of them. The remaining
7 5 per cent I didn't recognise because they weren't from our parts. I
8 guess they were from villages further away."
9 Now, does that accurately record or reflect -- does that
10 accurately reflect your recollection, that all of the people concerned at
11 one time or another took their masks off and that you knew 95 per cent of
12 them or recognised them by sight, and that the other 5 per cent were
13 people who must have been from some other parts?
14 A. Well, because I said I knew 90 to 95 per cent of those people, I
15 probably meant, or rather, this means that I actually recognised
16 Daut Haradinaj. And as for the 5 per cent, there were some people that I
17 just didn't know and -- or perhaps they were just younger than I was and
18 that was the reason why I didn't know them.
19 Q. You see, on the first page of this document, the front sheet,
20 there is space in which the names of any perpetrator which has been
21 provided by the witness is recorded under the heading "Perpetrator
22 Information" -- "Perpetrator Identification Information," and there are
23 two names recorded as having been provided by you; the first is
24 Nasim Haradinaj and the second is Zed or Ziqi Nimonaj?
25 A. Zeqir Nimonaj. I do apologise, I put this name first because he
1 was the one trying to calm the situation down, but at the same time he
2 was also making gestures, indicating that they should continue to beat
3 us. I also mentioned this name because he was there in the room where we
4 were beaten in Smajl Haradinaj's house. So these two persons were
5 specifically relevant for me personally in that time, in that case, and
6 that is why I mentioned their names, I specified their names.
7 Q. And you remember that, do you now, specifying their names to this
8 lady and not the names of other people?
9 A. I don't recall this lady. I already said that I couldn't
10 remember this lady or giving an interview to her. I can, in fact, vouch
11 for the fact that I was never interviewed by her.
12 Q. Just bear with me for one moment, please.
13 Let me move on then, please, to the statement that you made to
14 the Prosecution in this case on the 1st of November, 2001. I just want
15 to be clear, Mr. Stojanovic. Had you made previous witness statements to
16 the police about this incident?
17 A. I never gave any statements to the police. I never had any
18 contacts with the police. Do you -- just a moment. Let me get this
19 straight. After I left or after I was released or before that?
20 Q. After the incident occurred, after you were released on the 18th
21 of April, at any time did you make a statement to the police, a written
22 statement, to the police?
23 A. I don't think so, but I don't really recall this.
24 Q. You see, we have the copy of the statement that you made to the
25 Prosecution in this case in November 2001, and in that statement you do
1 mention Daut Haradinaj as having been amongst the men who entered your
2 house on the 18th of April. Do you understand?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So I'm going to suggest to you that that was the first time you
5 had mentioned in any statement to anybody the suggestion that
6 Daut Haradinaj entered the property with those men.
7 A. I can tell you that you are making a claim, and I am making a
8 counter-claim. I am saying something that is opposite what you say. The
9 first time that I mentioned those names was to this journalist from
10 "Illustrojana Politika."
11 Q. One or two things, please, about the statement that you made to
12 the Prosecution in November 2001. First of all, you described
13 Besnik Haradinaj, the person who was interrogating you in the small room
14 of the house, as being 16 to 17 years old. That was what you said in
15 your witness statement. Is that correct? Was he 16 or 17 years old?
16 A. I don't know how old he was. I gave an estimate, and I learned
17 from Dragoslav that his name was Besnik. I knew that he was
18 Rasim Haradinaj's son.
19 Q. Leaving the name aside then for a moment, the person who was
20 asking you questions in the room, did he look to you to be about 16 or
22 A. Well, yes, that's what he looked to me, perhaps even younger or
23 maybe older, but that was the impression that I got.
24 Q. You also said in your statement - and I'm reading a passage to
25 you now - you said, describing those who were at Smajl Haradinaj's house,
1 you said: "Many of the soldiers were children, 11, 12, 13 years old."
2 Again, is that correct, that statement that you made to the Prosecution,
3 that many of the people you saw and described as soldiers were children?
4 A. Yes, that's correct. On some occasions, I was guarded by
5 children with weapons in their hands. They were standing opposite the
6 three of us after we were thrown out of the room.
7 Q. Did you know by this stage, Mr. Stojanovic, that three teenagers
8 from the village had been shot and killed on the 24th of March by Serb
10 A. As I already said yesterday, this is what I read in "Zeri Rinisi"
11 and "Rilindja" one day after the incident, that is on the 25th.
12 Q. So these children that you saw during the day, did any of them
13 say anything to indicate to you that their classmates, their friends from
14 the village, had been shot on the 24th of March?
15 A. No. Mention was made in the room, but not during the time that
16 they guarded us.
17 Q. So that was mentioned to you during the questioning by the 16- or
18 17-year-old boy who had you in the room, was it?
19 A. What do you mean?
20 Q. You said the death of the teenagers was mentioned to you while
21 you were in the room being questioned, I thought. And a few moments ago,
22 you told us -- a few moments ago, you told us that the person asking you
23 questions was a 16- or a 17-year-old boy. Was it him who mentioned to
24 you that teenagers from the village had been killed?
25 A. No, no. I didn't say that he told us that, but Zeqir, while he
1 was there, he mentioned that.
2 Q. Can I just get the picture of what was happening a little earlier
3 on while you were being walked through the village. Is it right that
4 people were coming out of their houses and hitting you and your brother
5 and cousin, people from the village?
6 A. Yes. To be quite specific, as I said yesterday, people came out
7 of Xhavit Nimonaj's house or people would come from the meadows, out of
8 the houses in Glodjane.
9 Q. Was it your impression that really the whole village was turning
10 on you?
11 A. Something like that.
12 Q. Now, you told us yesterday, in answer to Mr. Di Fazio, that you
13 were accused during this - you and your family - of having spied for the
14 Serb forces before the 24th of March?
15 A. No, no, that's not what I said. I didn't say that it was my
16 family, but what I said is that when Zeqir Nimonaj was beating us, this
17 is the context, I said that Zeqir Nimonaj said that I was a spy.
18 Q. Did any of the other people who came out of their houses in the
19 village, did they accuse you of spying as they were coming up to you or
20 say anything that suggested that they thought that you and your family
21 were responsible for what happened on the 24th of March?
22 A. No, no.
23 Q. I want to move on just to one other matter, please, arising out
24 of the statement that you made. I just want to ask you a little bit
25 about the condition of your brother Dragoslav at various stages in the
1 proceedings. You've told us already that when you went or were taken to
2 Smajl Haradinaj's house, Dragoslav was taken first into the small room,
3 leaving you and Veselin in the corridor outside. And you've described to
4 us a moment when Dragoslav was taken out of the room and put back in the
6 Now, in your witness statement, I'm just going to read to you
7 what you wrote, you wrote this: "They opened the door after
8 interrogating him," that is Dragoslav, "and threw him into the corridor
9 and he was unconscious. He was bloody and looked very bad."
10 Is that -- is that a fair description, was he unconscious, as you
11 said in your statement?
12 A. Yes -- well, he was not fully conscious.
13 Q. That's what I just wanted to clarify with you. I want to ask you
14 for a moment about the period of time between the moment when he came out
15 of the room and the moment when you were taken in, because I think you
16 told us that Veselin was taken into the room first after that and you
17 were left alone with your brother for a time. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes, but I can't really tell you how long it took because I don't
20 Q. I understand that, but I think you can give us an idea, can't
21 you, how long Veselin was in the room alone before you were taken in?
22 A. No, no, I can't. I really don't remember how long it lasted,
23 because at that time I hardly thought about things like time, the passage
24 of time.
25 Q. In your witness statement, you said it was half an hour between
1 Veselin going into the room and you being taken into the room. Does that
2 sound right to you?
3 A. I may have said this, or rather, I'm sure that I did say that,
4 but whether this was, in fact, the length of time, I don't remember.
5 Q. Well, leaving the length of time aside, I just want to ask you,
6 during that period of time, however long it was, a little bit more about
7 the state of your brother Dragoslav. Did you try to talk to him?
8 A. I tried to talk to him. He could barely nod and squeeze my hand.
9 So when I said that he was not fully conscious, he could just -- he could
10 not talk at all. We could communicate just by gestures or he would make
11 some facial expressions. And then one of the soldiers guarding us would
12 approach me and would warn me against helping him or would even beat me
13 up for helping him.
14 Q. Just concentrating on him for a moment, was he able to recognise
15 your voice? Did he know it was you?
16 A. Well, I'm sure he was able to recognise me because he squeezed my
17 hand at one point. He wanted to tell me something by that, but he just
18 didn't have enough strength.
19 Q. You said in your statement he was bloody. Was there blood on his
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you were sure he recognised you because he squeezed your
23 hand. Was he looking into your face?
24 A. I'm sure, 100 per cent. He couldn't look me in the face because
25 he was all curled up.
1 Q. So he couldn't look you in the face because he was all curled up.
2 Can you just describe that in a bit more detail for us, please?
3 A. Well, he was on the floor curled up, that was the position in
4 which he was. He perhaps was able to glance at me, but that was not
5 much. And I tried to get from him -- I was asking him, Where does it
6 hurt? And so on.
7 Q. And he was in such a bad state, he couldn't answer you?
8 A. Yes, he couldn't answer me.
9 Q. Then you've told us you were taken into the room, and you've
10 described what happened to you and Veselin inside. You then came out
11 again, and I'm just going to read to you a passage from the statement you
12 made in November in 2001.
13 You said: "After two hours, we were ordered by Besnik to get
14 dressed, and Veselin and I were thrown into the hallway corridor, and I
15 saw Dragoslav on the floor unconscious."
16 Pausing there for a moment, that two-hour period, is that also
17 something we should take with caution because you're not sure about the
18 length of time?
19 A. In my statement I said around two, but it may have been
21 Q. No, I'm not criticising you at all for this. I'm just clarifying
22 with you, Mr. Stojanovic. Could it have been a much shorter period of
23 time than two hours?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So what is the shortest period of time it might have been?
1 A. Certainly not under two hours. They made me translate a piece
2 from the "Politika" magazine. I probably forgot to mention that in my
3 statement. So that took a long while, too, most probably.
4 Q. Is that the piece we've looked at? No, it can't have been that
5 piece. What was the piece from the magazine they were asking you to
6 translate? It may be that there's no translation of that question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Did you hear the last question?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please answer it.
10 MR. EMMERSON:
11 Q. What was the magazine article about from "Politika"?
12 A. The article was about the doctor and his team, that was two weeks
13 before. He went to the village of Glodjane to administer some vaccine to
14 some children there, but he was pulled over and detained. So that was
15 about that particular incident and the person in question is
16 Dr. Mirko Pesic.
17 Q. Very well. There may be some other information about that
18 incident, so I'll come back to it in another part of the case.
19 Let me ask you this: When you came out again after that
20 interval, was Dragoslav - as you said in your statement - was he still
21 unconscious on the floor?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And by that stage, was he in the same condition as you had last
24 seen him?
25 A. No, it was even worse.
1 Q. By that stage he'd lost consciousness fully, had he?
2 A. No, not fully, but it was getting worse. It probably hurt more
3 and the internal bleeding had already increased in all likelihood. He
4 was vomiting blood by this time. All of which led me to conclude that
5 his condition had deteriorated.
6 Q. Yes, I understand. And then after a time, you were taken outside
7 and taken off to repair your Lada. That was the next stage in the
8 process. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes -- no. Now Nasim Haradinaj came, telling us that we would be
11 Q. Yes?
12 A. Meanwhile, some other things had happened, too.
13 Q. Well, just let's be clear about this. You said in your statement
14 it was about 3.00 that Nasim came and told you you were going to be
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. Then you said he offered Dragoslav a pill for the pain; correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And then he said somebody needed to come back with him to search
20 the house, and you volunteered. Is that right?
21 A. No, no. It wasn't like that. It's true that Nasim gave
22 Dragoslav the pill. Dragoslav then came to. Later on Nasim told me that
23 we would be released and that one of the cars would be returned to us.
24 One of us, the three of us who were there, were to come with him and get
25 the car. I knew immediately that he was talking about the Lada.
1 Q. Let me just read to you what your statement says so that we're
2 clear and check whether you agree with it?
3 You said this: "It was about 3.00 p.m. and Haradinaj Nasim, son
4 of Smajl, came and said that they will be released later with a car and
5 someone needed to go with them to search the house. Nasim even gave
6 Dragoslav a pill for the pain. I volunteered. I saw the time on the
7 Albanian watches, so I knew it was 3.00. We walked back towards the
8 village, and Nasim asked me where we would like to be released. I told
9 him Babaloc."
10 So just so that we're clear it was about 3.00 that Nasim arrived.
11 Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And it was very shortly after that that you were told that you
14 were going to be released. Is that right?
15 A. It was before that. It was on his way in that he told us that we
16 would be released and that he would return one of the cars to us, so it
17 was before 3.00.
18 Q. But he arrived at 3.00 you told us. The time is less important
19 than the sequence, Mr. Stojanovic. The question I'm trying to get clear
20 with you is this: It was when -- it was when --
21 A. All right. Nasim is arriving, he tells us about Dragoslav, and
22 then we're off. Nasim, I, and a third person who was with us, and we are
23 now heading for the car. So that's your sequence.
24 Q. Thank you. Prior to the arrival of Nasim, had you seen Hilmi?
25 A. Yes, in the yard with Ramush, as I said before -- no, no, no, not
1 before. My apologies, not before. It was once we were out that door
2 that we laid eyes on Nasim.
3 Q. Let's just get this right. It was once you came out that door
4 that you laid eyes on Hilmi; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That's what I just wanted to clarify with you. So you saw Hilmi
7 Haradinaj there for the first time at the moment you'd been told you were
8 being released?
9 A. No, no. That wasn't the first time. I believe I said yesterday,
10 Hilmi at one point on that day came while Dragoslav was still
11 unconscious. He gave him some fruit juice or whatever it's called. I
12 can't be very specific about the time-line, though.
13 Q. You see, what I wanted to suggest to you, Mr. Stojanovic, is that
14 it was the arrival of Hilmi Haradinaj that resulted in you being told you
15 were going to be released?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know how long before you were told by Nasim that you were
18 going to be released. Do you know how long before that, it was that you
19 first saw Hilmi?
20 A. I can't be very specific, but I think it only took a very short
22 Q. So he was on the scene a very short time before you were told you
23 were going to be released. Is that right?
24 A. As far as I remember now.
25 Q. So when the head of the Haradinaj household arrived, you were
2 A. Not when he arrived. It was Nasim who told us that we'd be
3 released. I don't know who took the actual decision to release us.
4 Q. Thank you. You told us that you went to the house, your house,
5 and you then came back to the KLA HQ, as you described it, Smajl
6 Haradinaj's house, and you went back upstairs and you then found your
7 brother Dragoslav in the guest-room. Is that correct?
8 A. The first thing I said may have been mis-recorded, but I said
9 that in all of my statements, virtually. We were on our way to the
10 house, but we didn't actually reach the house. We reached the house --
11 we reached the road forking off towards Hilmi Haradinaj's house, and that
12 was where I found the Lada.
13 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I'm simply asking you about your
14 brother Dragoslav and his condition when you came back. When you came
15 back, you told us you saw him in the guest-room. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, in your statement you said this, you said that you could see
18 that Dragoslav was conscious at times and fainting again, and that his
19 head was full of blood when you saw him there. Can I be clear, when you
20 saw Dragoslav in the guest-room on your return, was he still drifting in
21 and out of consciousness?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I want to move on now to another topic. I'm
25 conscious of the time. I shan't be a great deal with this, Your Honour.
1 Q. I want to move to another topic, if I can with you briefly, and
2 that is the 24th of March. You arrived that day, you told us, in -- to
3 your house having travelled from the direction of Dubrava village. Is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you told us that police were in Dubrava and that you'd had to
7 ask them to get through. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, have you heard ever of a Serbian general who was in the area
10 called General Bozidar Delic? Is that a name you've ever heard?
11 A. No. The only reference I came across was the evidence here in
12 The Hague, but back in the area I'd never heard that name. I did move
13 about a lot, and I did know quite a few Serbs.
14 Q. Just to be clear, you just said a moment ago the only time you'd
15 ever heard his name was in connection with the evidence here in
16 The Hague. Is that right?
17 A. Yes, yes, the evidence, the Milosevic evidence. That was the
18 first reference to him I'd ever heard.
19 Q. That's what I just wanted to ask you about, Mr. Stojanovic. In
20 the Milosevic case, General Delic gave evidence that there were 400
21 Serbian security forces stationed in the village of Dubrava conducting a
22 blockade on the 24th of March. I'll put that to you again, the evidence
23 that General Delic gave in the Milosevic case was that on the day you
24 passed through Dubrava and had to ask for permission, there were 400
25 Serbian security forces in Dubrava.
1 I want to ask you, please, to tell us what you saw of police,
2 army, and security services in the area as you were approaching towards
3 your house?
4 A. Except for those two who allowed me to get through and the one I
5 saw at Glodjane, I don't know. As for Delic's comments, I don't know,
6 it's difficult for me to comment on his statement, and I think you should
7 probably ask him. The 20 -- I saw some along the road and some on the
9 Q. You're misunderstanding my question, I think. I'm not asking you
10 about the police you saw who were in the area around your house. I'm
11 asking you about the presence of police before you got to your house.
12 You told us that you were stopped in Dubrava.
13 A. There were two who stopped me in Dubrava. They were securing the
14 area - how should I put it? - in order to stop anyone from just heading
15 there for no reason at all and get themselves killed. They stopped me,
16 and then I asked them to let me through since my house was across that --
17 behind that line.
18 Q. Perhaps we can put it a different way. What about when you left
19 that evening, did you see large numbers of Serb troops in the area or
20 Serb police?
21 A. No.
22 Q. I see. Armoured vehicles, did you see what sort of vehicles the
23 police --
24 A. No.
25 Q. All the police officers in the area around your house,
1 Mr. Stojanovic, presumably they had arrived in vehicles. Did you see the
2 vehicles, marked vehicles?
3 A. Yes, I did see vehicles such as Pinzgauers, but no armoured
5 Q. I see. So you saw Pinzgauers, roughly how many?
6 A. Two or three, thereabouts.
7 Q. And were you aware that a large number of people from the village
8 had been detained by the police on the 24th of March?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You see, I want to suggest to you that quite a large number of
11 people were arrested and that evening collected in the front yard around
12 your house by the police?
13 A. It's what I said in my statement. Had somebody been brought into
14 the yard or in front of the yard, because it was prior to that that we
15 had spoken to the policemen telling them not to bring anyone into our
16 yard at all. I'm not sure if they complied or not, but I spent 80
17 per cent of that entire time inside the house, especially that evening.
18 Q. And just be clear, why were you telling the police not to bring
19 people into your yard?
20 A. Those were our neighbours, after all, so we knew how people
21 related to one another. We knew what exactly went on, those people they
22 were fighting.
23 Q. Why did you tell the police that you didn't want them to bring
24 those people into your yard?
25 A. I told them those were our neighbours. It was for that reason
1 and all the rest.
2 Q. Do you know Shaban Zeqiri? Shaban Seqiri?
3 A. Shaban, yes, I do.
4 Q. He's an elderly gentleman, isn't he, who used to be in the police
5 and lived in Glodjane?
6 A. Yes, he used to work with my brother.
7 Q. You see, Mr. Stojanovic, did you come to learn that Shaban Zeqiri
8 was amongst a number of people arrested and beaten by the Serb police
9 that day from the village?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you ever see Shaban Zeqiri again after the 24th of March?
12 A. No, never. That evening, as I said, we had to leave the house.
13 Q. You mentioned helicopters. Were you able to see from inside the
14 house what the helicopters were doing?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So you had a clear view from inside the house of that, did you?
17 A. Not as they were just flying around, but when they got near the
18 house and when they flew around the house, yes, I did have a clear view.
19 Q. And was there a lot of shooting going on at that time?
20 A. What do you mean a lot of shooting? By the helicopters or ...
21 Q. The question I'm asking you is: Whilst the helicopters were
22 there, was there a lot of shooting generally going on at that time?
23 A. There was a distant sound of shooting, not really nearby.
24 Q. Weren't the helicopters there at the time that the shooting was
25 taking place between your property and the Haradinaj property?
1 A. I don't remember if the helicopters were there at that precise
2 time, but I don't think so.
3 Q. You mentioned a period of time when there was shooting going on
4 between your property and the Haradinaj property, and you told us in your
5 evidence in answer to Mr. Di Fazio that there came a point where the
6 fighting moved down towards Gllogjan. Do you remember saying that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I want to suggest to you that immediately before the fighting
9 moved down to Gllogjan, the helicopters were hovering above the Haradinaj
10 compound and firing at it.
11 A. I categorically claim -- well, perhaps not categorically. What
12 I'm saying is that I didn't personally hear any of the helicopters open
14 Q. Would you be able to recognise the difference --
15 A. At one point in time, one of the helicopters was parked on
16 Ibrahim Maloku's meadow just outside my house. As far as I knew, they
17 were waiting for a chance to evacuate Otovic who had been injured, but he
18 later succumbed to the wounds he received.
19 Q. Two final questions, if I may. First of all, you've told us that
20 your brother Dragoslav was there during the day. We have seen a witness
21 statement or a witness interview record with your brother Vladimir, who
22 says that he was there also during the day. Was Vladimir there during
23 the day?
24 A. Vladimir was called by the mother. His youngest son, 3 years
25 old, was in our home, and his mother was afraid and she called him over
1 that afternoon sometime.
2 Q. So is the answer yes, that during the day he was, in fact, there?
3 A. Not during the day, that afternoon.
4 Q. All right. And finally this: Could you please be shown Exhibit
6 MR. EMMERSON: For the witness, we will need the Serbian --
7 that's it. Can we go, please, to page -- the fifth page of that
8 document. And for Your Honours, it's the sixth page of the English
9 version, so the sixth page, because the first page is a declaration.
10 Could you read for us, please, the words that appear at the top
11 there in that heading. Do you see the central word there beginning with
12 a letter "C," could you read everything that is in that heading for us,
14 A. "The Republic of Serbia, the Ministry of Internal Affairs,
15 Secretariat of Internal Affairs, Djakovica police station."
16 Q. Yes, and then the heading in the centre of the page, please?
17 A. "List. "Members of the PJP of the Djakovica SUP variant for
18 daily allowance payment period between 23rd of March and 31st of March,
20 Q. Can you tell us who the person at number 2 on that list is?
21 A. Can you just tell me what "PJP" means, please, and about Predrag
22 Stojanovic, that's what it says, "Predrag Stojanovic." What is a member
23 of the PJP?
24 Q. Well, it's not, I'm afraid, Mr. Stojanovic, for me to give
25 evidence about that. You're tell us that you don't know?
1 A. I don't.
2 Q. And did you know that Predrag was in the paramilitary police, at
3 least in 1999?
4 A. I know he was with the regular police forces. I know nothing
5 about any paramilitary police. I know that he was a beat officer.
6 That's as long as we're talking about my own Predrag, my brother.
7 Q. Can we just look down, please, to number 17. Who is that?
8 A. My brother is called Veselin Stojanovic, but he had been working
9 for 25 years as a private entrepreneur in Indjija. I state categorically
10 that he never had any sort of police or military involvement anywhere at
11 all. As for this Veselin Stojanovic, I don't know. Perhaps you should
12 go and have a look at other lists, too. There is no father's name stated
13 here next to Predrag's name or Veselin's for that matter. Predrag
14 Stojanovic and Veselin Stojanovic, Mijat Stojanovic, those are
15 exceptionally common names in Serbia. It's difficult for me to try and
16 shed any light on this unless their fathers' names are actually included.
17 Q. You can shed some light on it, Mr. Stojanovic, because you've
18 just given us some evidence that I want to clarify with you. Is it, as
19 you've just told us, your evidence that your brother Veselin is somebody
20 about whom you can categorically state he was never in any way in the
21 police? Is that a categorical statement that you are giving this
22 Tribunal on oath?
23 A. 100 per cent certain. The five years -- over the five years
24 preceding this he had not been to Kosovo at all. He had never been to
25 Kosovo until we were arrested, even after our release. These names mean
1 nothing to me without the father's name. Veselin owns a shop in Indjija
2 and had owned that same shop for over 25 years. You can go to any
3 institution in Serbia and they will most certainly confirm that for you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, may I draw your attention to the fact
5 that the witness introduces a time-frame --
6 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, exactly, I was just about to ask that.
7 Q. You've just indicated that your brother Veselin did not arrive
8 back in Kosovo until after you were arrested. When was that that he
9 arrived back?
10 A. No, not for five years, the five years before the war, not before
11 and not after. That's what I meant --
12 Q. Well when --
13 A. -- and that's what I said.
14 Q. Well, when did he come back to Kosovo, Mr. Stojanovic?
15 A. Never.
16 Q. I see. So he never came back during the war?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I see?
19 A. Not during the war and not after.
20 Q. I see. I just want to ask you this:
21 MR. EMMERSON: Could we please look at Defence document
22 identification 1D020739, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D30,
25 marked for identification.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 MR. EMMERSON:
3 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, this is a note made by Mr. Di Fazio, the
4 gentleman who sits ore there and who asked you some questions earlier
5 about a meeting he had with you on the 23rd of March, that's four days
6 ago, in The Hague in which he asked you some further questions about your
7 evidence. Do you remember meeting Mr. Di Fazio?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you have a look, please, at the second page of this document
10 and at the penultimate paragraph beginning: "Occupations ..." I'm going
11 to read this to you slowly in English so that you can have it translated
12 to you. The note that Mr. Di Fazio made of your conversations reads as
13 follows: "Occupations - witness," that is you, "was in the paint
14 business, Dragoslav was a care-taker in a school in Decane and Veselin
15 worked in a furniture company in Decane."
16 Now, why would you be telling Mr. Di Fazio that Veselin worked in
17 a furniture company in Decane and now be telling this Tribunal that he
18 hadn't been in Kosovo before or during the war, Mr. Stojanovic?
19 A. Let me make this clear, this is Veselin Stijovic, not Stojanovic.
20 He was with us when we were captured. So this is the point. This is not
21 Veselin Stojanovic, my brother, but this is my cousin or a relative of
22 mine; in other words, Veselin Stijovic and Veselin Stijovic did work in
24 Q. I see. And so the following sentence where you say this:
25 "Neither I nor my brother were mobilised into the police or the army in
1 1998, and I don't know about Veselin." Are we to take that as a
2 reference to Veselin Stijovic as well?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. As far as you were aware, was Veselin Stijovic involved in the
6 A. Veselin Stijovic, I know for sure, we were in the camp up there,
7 I know that he never worked in the police.
8 Q. I see. So if that's right, just to be clear so that we know --
9 A. 100 per cent.
10 Q. Can you explain --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, and I'm also looking at Mr. Di Fazio,
12 may I take it that: "Neither I nor my brother were not mobilised," is a
13 mistake; that it is: "Neither I nor my brother were mobilised."
14 MR. EMMERSON: That's how I'd read it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Di Fazio, is that a correct reading? It's
16 not a double negative, it's a single negative?
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay, understood.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
20 MR. EMMERSON:
21 Q. When you told us just a moment ago that you are categorically
22 certain that Veselin Stijovic never worked for the police, can you help
23 us as to why you said to Mr. Di Fazio, I don't know about Veselin?
24 A. I don't know if, in 1998, he was engaged in the military, or
25 rather, 1999. I think that the question related to his involvement in
1 the military or whether he had a rifle. As far as I can remember, this
2 is what we were talking about. But I can tell you that he did not, he
3 was not, because we were in the camp, he was never in the police. I
4 never saw him wearing a police uniform, and in those bungalows where we
5 lived ...
6 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Is the position of you, Mr. Guy-Smith, and --
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: It remains the same.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the same would be true for you,
10 Mr. Harvey?
11 MR. HARVEY: And for me, yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, is there any reason for you to
13 re-examine the witness?
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Just a few minor matters, if Your Honours please.
15 I can wrap it quickly.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
18 Q. You mentioned earlier being made to translate a "Politika"
19 magazine, and as I understood your evidence that had -- that occurred
20 sometime after being beaten and tortured in the Smajl Haradinaj's house.
21 Firstly, is that where you were required to translate the "Politika"
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Were you asked to do that by one of your captors; and if so, can
25 you recall which one?
1 A. The man whose name I don't know who went with me to get the Lada,
2 and throughout this period I was able to observe that his command of
3 Serbo-Croat was very good, and I started translating. It was a short
4 article, maybe just half a page.
5 Q. All right. But they asked you to do that; correct?
6 A. Yes, yes. Because he was monitoring me as I translated.
7 Q. Okay. Now, you also said - just bear with me and I'll find it
8 from the evidence - you were asked by Mr. Emmerson about police bringing
9 people into your yard. Now, you were asked -- well, in fact, it was
10 suggested to you that there were a large number of people who were
11 arrested and that evening collected in the front yard around your house.
12 And you had spoken to police, telling them not to bring anyone into your
13 yard at all.
14 Firstly, did the police bring arrested persons into your yard, as
15 far as you're aware, on that day?
16 A. As far as I know, no, but because my house is right there at the
17 roadside, perhaps what they meant was this yard.
18 Q. I'm sorry, but it's just not getting any clearer, and I want to
19 be as clear as possible. First of all, did you, with your own two eyes,
20 see - see - any arrested people in your yard at all?
21 A. No, no, never.
22 Q. All right. Thank you. Did you, with your own two ears, hear any
23 information to the effect that people had been -- arrested people had
24 been taken into your yard; and if so, from whom did you hear that?
25 A. No, I never heard any, up until this moment now.
1 Q. Mr. Emmerson asked you this question and you gave this answer:
2 "Q. Why did you tell the police that you didn't want them to
3 bring these people into your yard?"
4 And you answered: "I told them those were our neighbours."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. "It was," unfortunately a word is missing, it was something to do
7 with "reason and all the rest." Now, did you ever tell the police --
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The witness said "it was without reason."
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. We've just had an explanation.
11 Your answer was this: "I told them those were our neighbours.
12 It was without reason and all the rest."
13 Did you ever speak to the police about not bringing people into
14 your yard?
15 A. At one point during the day, yes, with the police officer that
16 stood on the road in front of the house, although at that time there was
17 no discussion about -- no mention was made of any captives or prisoners.
18 Q. What did you have in mind -- what was troubling you about people
19 being brought into the yard? What was your concern?
20 A. Well, I lived in that area. We had lived with these people, and
21 I didn't want to see anyone. All the more so -- in fact, let me explain.
22 This is a very uncomfortable situation. I simply didn't want anyone to
23 put me in an uncomfortable situation.
24 Q. Okay. And how long does it take to walk from your place into
25 the -- say, to Smajl Haradinaj's house?
1 A. Well, it all depends on how fast you're walking, but it's a
2 kilometre, kilometre and a half. So it should take you about 15 minutes
3 if you walk at a normal pace.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Has the re-examination triggered any need to --
7 MR. EMMERSON: Just one matter, if I might.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Further cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
10 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, you've just been asked questions by Mr. Di Fazio
11 about people in your yard and looking at the transcript at page 29,
12 line 25, Mr. Di Fazio asked you this: "Firstly, did the police bring
13 arrested persons into your yard, as far as you're aware, on that day?"
14 And you replied: "As far as I know, no, but because my house is
15 right there at the roadside, perhaps that's what they meant was this
17 What did you mean by that?
18 A. I said perhaps that's what they meant since a car was close --
19 parked close to the yard. So one of those Pinzgauers that I mentioned
20 was parked close to the yard on the road. Perhaps that's what they meant
21 when they referred to the yard, and that's why I said it.
22 Q. Well, perhaps that's what who meant?
23 A. I, that's what I meant.
24 Q. Who was referring to people being by the Pinzgauer parked outside
25 your house? Who was referring to detained people being by --
1 A. Nobody mentioned it, but I said during the day when we talked, I
2 said to the police officer, Please do not put me in an uncomfortable
3 situation. Please do not bring people to my yard. So if there were any
4 prisoners or captives, because we had to think about all the aspects of
5 the situation, lest we should be put in an uncomfortable situation.
6 Q. What would -- what gave you the idea in the first place that the
7 police might be planning to bring arrested people into your yard so that
8 you had to raise it with them?
9 A. Well, because police had come from this direction, the police
10 that I had seen, and we know that in every ...
11 Q. I'm sorry, we lost the end of your answer. Let me ask you the
12 question again. You say that police had come from this direction, which
14 A. Some of the police that I saw came from this direction, and as
15 soon as I saw three Pinzgauers, two or three Pinzgauers, I assumed that
16 they had come from this direction.
17 Q. From which direction?
18 A. From the direction of Dubrava.
19 Q. So you saw them and they were outside your house, were they?
20 Parked on the road outside your house?
21 A. One Pinzgauer was parked on the road next to the house, quite
22 near to the house. It was not at the entrance gate or right at the
23 house, very near the house, but it was close enough on the road.
24 Q. So just finally, you told us just a few moments ago that you,
25 seeing that Pinzgauer, you asked the police not to bring people into your
1 yard, and I asked you the question: What gave you the idea in the first
2 place that they might be planning to bring arrested people into your yard
3 so that there was a need to tell them not to? And you said: Well,
4 because police had come from this direction.
5 Can you just explain to us, just explain to us why it was you
6 thought that the police may be intending to bring people to your yard, of
7 all places?
8 A. Well, I can't explain to you why it was that I thought so at the
9 time. It was a long time ago, but I thought -- in fact, out of an
10 abundance of caution, I didn't want anyone to get arrested or captured.
11 But I simply didn't want us, me, to be put in an uncomfortable,
12 unpleasant situation. This was the reason, because after all we were the
13 ones living there.
14 Q. And simply this: Do I understand your evidence correctly, is it
15 that you were concerned that the people in the village would think
16 your house was being used effectively as a military facility. Is that
17 what you were worried about?
18 A. Yes, precisely.
19 Q. Thank you?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Questioned by the Court:
22 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one additional question in relation to
23 this same matter, Mr. Stojanovic. Earlier you were asked why you were
24 telling the police not to bring people into your yard, and then you said:
25 Those were our neighbours. Did you have any clue as to who would be the
1 arrested persons at that time?
2 A. Well, I assumed, I really didn't know, but I assumed that the
3 people who had been firing on the police, that they could perhaps get
4 arrested or captured.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And that is a reference to the Haradinaj -- members
6 of the Haradinaj family or at least those who were living on the
7 Haradinaj property?
8 A. No, I didn't mean anyone specific. I didn't mean Haradinaj
9 specifically or anyone else, but because there had been fighting I
10 actually had in mind the soldiers.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.
12 Any further questions? If not, Mr. Stojanovic, this concludes
13 your testimony in this court. I'd like to thank you for having come to
14 The Hague and to have answered questions of the parties and of the Bench.
15 You are excused, and I wish you a safe trip home again.
16 Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Stojanovic out of the
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for calling me here.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest, since we really need our time today that
21 we leave -- I don't think that there are any major problems with
22 exhibits, but let's not spend time on it at this very moment. Let's just
23 continue. Therefore, Madam Usher -- she left the courtroom meanwhile.
24 Mr. Di Fazio, are you ready to call your next witness?
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Kearney is.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, I might excuse myself
3 briefly and I can inform the usher myself that the next witness --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you do that, that might save time and at the
5 same time if the new photograph which is not yet in evidence, but if that
6 really would depict where Smajl's house was located, it couldn't come as
7 a surprise that on P32 the witness -- the other Stojanovic witness was
8 not able to identify the house because it's not on the picture. We spent
9 approximately two pages of transcript on producing the picture, asking
10 questions whether he could orient himself. I have had more moments when
11 I was impressed by the efficiency of the examining party.
12 If I read the transcript, I might have misspoken if I said I have
13 had more moments when I was impressed. I meant to say, I have had
14 moments when I was more impressed.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, no protective measures for the next
18 MR. KEARNEY: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And your next witness is ...?
20 MR. KEARNEY: Mr. Veselin Stijovic.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 Good morning, Mr. Stijovic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... in this court,
25 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn
1 declaration that you speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
2 the truth. The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. I would
3 like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Stijovic. Please be
7 seated. You'll first be examined by Mr. Kearney, who's counsel for the
9 WITNESS: VESELIN STIJOVIC
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Examination by Mr. Kearney:
12 Q. Mr. Stijovic, good morning --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I take it that for the scheduling of
14 Thursday that you're fully informed about that if we can't conclude the
15 testimony of this witness today, that we have to sit tomorrow even if it
16 would only be for half an hour. The witness has been scheduled for one
17 hour and a half.
18 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I am aware of that. Your
19 Honours -- obviously this morning's session went longer than we all
20 thought it would, so I'm going to do my best to stream-line these
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
23 MR. KEARNEY:
24 Q. Mr. Stijovic, good morning. Could you again, please, state your
25 full name for the record and give us your date of birth, as well as your
1 place of birth?
2 A. My name is Veselin Stijovic, and I was born in Decani in 1972.
3 Q. What is your father's name, sir, and your ethnicity, if you could
4 tell us, please?
5 A. I am a Serb and my father's name is Bogic.
6 Q. Mr. Stijovic, you mentioned that you were born in the village of
7 Dasinovac. How long did you live there after your birth place?
8 A. Yes, Dasinovac.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I see in the transcript, and that's
10 what I heard translated, that the witness was born in Decani, and that of
11 course could be municipality or city, but until now I have not heard
13 MR. KEARNEY: I'll clear that up, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. KEARNEY:
16 Q. Mr. Stijovic, were you born in Decani itself or in a village in
17 the Decani municipality?
18 A. I was born in the hospital in Decani, but I lived in the village
19 of Dasinovac.
20 Q. How long did you live in that village, please?
21 A. From the day I was born.
22 Q. As of 1997, could you tell us, please, what the ethnic break-down
23 was in the village of Dasinovac?
24 A. There were Albanians, Catholics, and Serbs. There were about
25 five or six Catholic houses, about 50 Albanian houses, and about ten Serb
2 Q. Now, Mr. Stijovic, given that you lived in Dasinovac all your
3 life, I assume you went to school there, and you had interactions with
4 your neighbours throughout the course of your lifetime. Is that a fair
6 A. Yes, I went to school in Donji Ratis, elementary school, I mean,
7 and I had dealings with all my neighbours.
8 Q. Now, just in a general sense, we'll talk about this more
9 specifically later, but in a general sense before 1997 how would you
10 characterise your own relations with your Albanian neighbours, please?
11 A. Before 1997, I had good relations with them; we were on good
12 terms. I socialised with my neighbours, Albanians, Serbs, and Catholics
13 alike. I was on good terms with all of them. We went to school
15 Q. Now, in just a moment we're going to talk about events that took
16 place in late 1997 and 1998, but before that I need to talk with you
17 briefly about your employment history. Tell us, please, today how you're
18 employed, first of all?
19 A. I am a construction machinery operator now.
20 Q. During the course of your employment career, did you ever work
21 for the VJ, please?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were you ever in the army, sir?
24 A. I was in the army.
25 Q. What dates were you in the army?
1 A. In 1991 and 1992.
2 Q. After you got out of the army in 1992, what was your occupation
4 A. I got a job in a furniture factory in Decani.
5 Q. How long did you hold that job in the furniture factory in
7 A. From 1992 until 1998.
8 Q. When, in 1998, did you stop working at that furniture factory?
9 A. I stopped working there when I was captured.
10 Q. And we'll talk about that in a moment, but, sir, at the time of
11 your capture would you characterise your employment as civilian or
13 A. I worked as a civilian, as a craftsman, in the furniture factory.
14 What I did there was manufacture beds and stuff like that.
15 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that before 1997, the relations
16 between yourself and the Albanians in your own village of Dasinovac was
17 good. At some point in 1997 or 1998, did that begin to change,
18 Mr. Stijovic?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I'm looking at the clock, and I'm
20 listening to your question. You're entering a new area, I take it.
21 Therefore, I think it's better to have a break now.
22 I have one question for -- to the Defence teams. Listening to
23 the last ten minutes of testimony, would there have been any objection if
24 Mr. Kearney would just have put for confirmation to the witness where he
25 was born, where he went to school, whether he was working here, et
1 cetera, et cetera?
2 Mr. Kearney, that saves you approximately half of the time.
3 I take it -- I see nodding no.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Clearly, there's one area of employment which I
5 would have thought it was perfectly respectable for Mr. Kearney to elicit
6 without leading.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. EMMERSON: In other words, excluding certain possibilities.
9 I had indicated to Mr. Kearney yesterday afternoon the nature of the
10 areas which have been in dispute with the last two witnesses and what is
11 not in dispute.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. EMMERSON: And, therefore, quite large parts of the
14 evidence-in-chief could be taken reasonably shortly, but it's obviously
15 up to him.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed that the Prosecution until now has never
17 used 89(F). I mean, all these questions are put to witnesses and, of
18 course, we get answers to those questions, but the question is whether
19 the efficiency would not be served by trying to find ways of speeding up
20 in those areas which are not in dispute.
21 Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I hope the Chamber has noted that I have
23 specifically been refraining from making a number of objections --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, you see --
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- the past couple of days. That was because of
1 this very reason.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, it's a standing objection. We have
3 that not only in the back of our mind but even in the front of our mind.
4 MR. EMMERSON: And just to be entirely fair to the Prosecution, I
5 think on one occasion when Mr. Dutertre was examining, he did lead the
6 witness on those personal details at the outset and simply invited the
7 witness to confirm without objection.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's not have a debate on it. I think the
11 message is clear enough, if we can find means to save time without in any
12 way jeopardising the information the Chamber receives, it should be -- it
13 should be given a try.
14 We adjourn until five minutes to 11.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, please proceed.
18 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, thank you. At the outset, I would
19 like to inform the Trial Chamber that I did speak with Mr. Re over the
20 break. He did hear the Court's concerns about using 89(F) more, and he
21 wanted to convey to the Trial Chambers that it's our intent over the
22 break to begin that work in earnest for using both 89(F) and 92 ter to
23 stream-line the proceedings.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
25 MR. KEARNEY:
1 Q. Mr. Stijovic, when we left off, I was just asking you if at some
2 point, in late 1997 or 1998, the relations between Serbs and Albanians in
3 your village of Dasinovac changed. Can you please tell us, one, if
4 that's true; and two, if it is true, how?
5 A. It is true that there had been a change in the tensions between
6 us, and then the attack occurred on Malesa Culafic's house. I read about
7 that in the papers and I personally went there the next day because those
8 were friends. We were on visiting terms. I just went there to see if
9 they could use any help or anything. After that, there was the attack on
10 the police station in Rznici - I read about that, I saw it on TV - and
11 the murder of Otovic. Dragoslav and Mijat told me they had had to leave
12 their home that night for reasons of personal safety. It was often the
13 case that people would pass by houses at night firing shots, so
14 eventually for safety reasons I, too, had to leave the house in which we
15 lived. And, eventually, I had to go to Decani.
16 Q. When you say for reasons of safety you had to leave your house,
17 please tell us about that. What do you mean by that?
18 A. Well, to keep the same thing from happening to my family that had
19 happened to Malesa Culafic, and in order to keep my family safe.
20 Q. When was it, Mr. Stijovic, that you left your village?
21 A. I can't be specific about the date, but it was sometime in April,
22 late March/early April.
23 Q. You mentioned earlier in your testimony Dragoslav and Mijat. Let
24 me ask you: Do you have two cousins who go by those names?
25 A. Yes, that's right, two cousins, yes.
1 Q. And those cousins lived in the village of Dubrava. Is that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And at some point during this same period, were you aware that
5 they also left their home in Dubrava for Decani?
6 A. Yes, they told me they had been forced to leave for reasons of
7 safety at about the same time that the police officer Otovic was killed.
8 Q. Beyond your cousins and your own family, were you aware that
9 other Serbs were leaving Dasinovac at that time, at that general
10 time-period, as well?
11 A. Yes, at that general time-period.
12 Q. Now, at some point after both you and your cousins left your
13 respective homes, did you travel back to Dubrava with your cousins to
14 help them at their home?
15 A. Yes. They had asked me to come and give them a hand, get some
16 things for them, things for their livestock and all the basic
17 necessities. We drove there in a Lada and in a Mazda 626. We started
18 loading things into the cars, and then suddenly an attack started. We
19 dashed into the house, and the attack itself went on for about 45
20 minutes. They were firing, using automatic weapons and hand-held
21 launchers. Mijat and I stood in a corner of one of the rooms, we took
22 cover there, and Dragoslav would nip over to the window every now and
23 then to see if they were approaching the house or getting any closer.
24 And then he would tell us what he had seen outside.
25 Q. Do you remember what date that was, sir?
1 A. It was a Saturday, just the day before Easter, and I can't
2 remember the exact date.
3 Q. This was a day in April of 1998, though. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. You said that after this attack started you ran into your
6 cousins' home. At that point did you actually see who was firing on the
7 home or did you find that out later on?
8 A. It was later on that we found out. It was from Glodjane and from
9 all directions. It was difficult for me to tell where the fire was
10 coming from. About 45 minutes later they finally reached the house and
11 they started shouting for us to come out and surrender. Dragoslav was
12 the first to the door and was followed by Mijat and me. They told us to
13 lie face-down. Dragoslav was the one who opened the door. They started
14 beating him first and then later came up to us two and beat us and kicked
15 us and hit us with rifle-butts and with whatever they could use, whatever
16 was at hand.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
18 A. After which they threw us out of the house.
19 Q. I just want to go back for a moment. You said they were firing
20 hand-held launchers on your home. Did you actually -- how did you know
21 that? What did you see or what did you hear in that regard?
22 A. It was because of the powerful detonations that we could tell.
23 Those were powerful explosions as they impacted against the house, and
24 Dragoslav was actually watching through the window. And later on we saw
25 it ourselves once we were outside. I saw people carrying hand-held
1 launchers around.
2 Q. How many of these explosions did you hear as they impacted the
4 A. I can't remember exactly how many, but quite many. We were quite
5 scared, traumatised, so I didn't keep track exactly.
6 Q. You said the attack lasted for approximately 40 to 45 minutes.
7 How many rounds of rifle fire or gun-fire hit the house during that
8 period if you can tell us, please?
9 A. The firing was constant, uninterrupted, but I can't tell you
10 about the number of rounds. It went on like that for 45 minutes
12 Q. During that attack, Mr. Stijovic, did either you or either of
13 your cousins fire back at the people who were attacking you?
14 A. No, we had nothing to fire with, no weapons.
15 Q. You said at some point earlier in your testimony that the
16 shooting came to an end and words were yelled from outside toward you.
17 Is that a fair statement?
18 A. Yes. Once they reached the house they stopped firing and they
19 shouted for us to come out. Dragoslav opened the door and Kika and I
20 were ordered inside the house to lie down on the floor and keep our heads
21 down and not look around. About 30 soldiers came running into the house.
22 Dragoslav was hit as soon as he opened the door, and then later they came
23 inside to beat the two of us as well with automatic weapons and whatever
24 else they could use.
25 Q. Do you remember what it was exactly that these men were yelling
1 at you at that time?
2 A. They shouted abuse, very bad things. They referred to our Serb
3 mothers, that sort of thing.
4 Q. What language were they yelling in?
5 A. Albanian.
6 Q. These 30 soldiers who came running into your house, please
7 describe them for us?
8 A. Describe, some were -- all were armed, some in uniform, some in
9 civilian clothes, all armed.
10 Q. They were in uniform of what organisation?
11 A. Camouflage uniform; just whose make I don't know.
12 Q. Did you see insignia on the uniform, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Please describe it for us and tell us what the insignia was?
15 A. There was a red circle and a black eagle with, I think, yellow
16 lettering, but I'm not sure about that, if it was yellow or not, but it
17 said "Kosovo Liberation Army."
18 Q. You said that as they came in they attacked Dragoslav. Is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Describe that attack for us, please?
22 A. As soon as he opened the door, they started hitting him with
23 automatic rifles in the stomach, in the head, indiscriminately. They
24 were just hitting away, five, six, or even ten of them all at the same
25 time, and he had fallen down to the floor. They told us to lie down even
1 before they got to us, and when they got to us there were three of them,
2 and they started hitting away with automatic weapons, their rifle-butts,
3 that sort of thing. They took us outside the house. Again, we were told
4 to lie down, face-down, and not look away, and not look at them either.
5 And they continued to beat us for a while, after which they told us to
6 stand up and they took us to Glodjane. We stood up, and they took us
7 down that road to Glodjane. There were many armed soldiers and civilians
8 lining that road --
9 Q. Mr. Stijovic --
10 A. -- beating us all the while.
11 Q. -- I'm going to stop you for a moment, please.
12 I want to talk just for a moment about the blows that you
13 suffered during this attack. You indicated that after the men came into
14 the home, you were told to lie down. Were you yourself beaten during
15 that period while you were still inside the home; and if you were, tell
16 us how many times you were beaten and where on your body, please?
17 A. Yes, yes. Mijat and me, they beat us many times. They kicked us
18 and hit us with automatic weapons. They hit us in the house for quite
19 some time, actually.
20 Q. Where on your body were you hit?
21 A. On my head, my body, my -- indiscriminately. They weren't very
22 picky. They were just hitting away.
23 Q. And did this -- did this beating continue after you were taken
24 outside of the home; and if it did, please tell us again the number of
25 blows, the duration, where on your body the blows landed?
1 A. Yes. Outside the house, there was the same situation replayed as
2 the one inside the house. They told us to lie face-down, and they kicked
3 us and hit us with automatic weapons all over, on our heads and our
4 bodies. They didn't mind, five, six, or even ten of them, as many could
5 get close to our bodies on the ground, they all tried to get in a blow or
7 Q. And what were you doing during this time?
8 A. We were just lying on the ground, trying to protect our heads
9 with our hands to the extent that we could.
10 Q. During this beating, this second beating if you will, the one
11 that occurred outside of the home, were the men talking to you or talking
12 to any of you during that time that you heard?
13 A. For the most part, they were abusing us. They were cursing. I
14 didn't really understand every single thing they were saying in Albanian,
15 but I did get the gist of it, the abuse and everything.
16 Q. Do you speak some Albanian, Mr. Stijovic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And when you say you got the gist of it, what gist did you
19 receive? What did you hear them saying to you?
20 A. Well, abuse. What are you doing here? This is our land. They
21 called us Chetniks, that sort of thing. They abused us.
22 Q. When you say they said to you, This is our land, what
23 specifically did they say and what did you take that to mean, please?
24 A. I don't know what they meant exactly when they said, This is our
25 land. I can hardly be expected to explain what they were trying to say
1 or, for that matter, the hatred that they turned on us.
2 Q. Had you ever met, to your knowledge, any of these men before,
3 Mr. Stijovic?
4 A. Not those who were outside the house with us, but by the time we
5 were taken to Glodjane, the HQ or whatever it was, I was able to
6 recognise some people.
7 Q. And we'll talk about that in just a moment, but I want to focus
8 now on the men beating you in the courtyard. You said that they -- you
9 talked about the fact that they focused their hatred on you. What was
10 the basis of their hatred?
11 A. I really can't explain, just because we were Serbs. I don't
12 think there could have been any other reason. I had never clashed with
13 any of them or Mijat for that matter, not that I know of.
14 Q. Mr. Stijovic, do you remember making a statement to ICTY
15 investigators back in 2002 about this incident?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. KEARNEY: And Court and counsel, I'm referring now to a
18 statement on page 4 of the English translation.
19 Q. Did you tell the ICTY investigators back in 2002 that you heard
20 these men say: "Kosovo belonged to the Albanians."
21 First of all, do you remember making that statement to the
22 investigators; and secondly, is that true, did they say that to you?
23 A. Yes, yes, that's precisely what I meant, Kosovo belongs to us, it
24 belongs to Albania. What are you doing here, what business have you
25 being here, that sort of thing.
1 Q. Now, you mention at this point in the courtyard that you yourself
2 did not recognise anyone. Did either of your cousins tell you that they
3 did recognise somebody?
4 A. They knew most of them, I think. I think they did. They told me
5 that there was a man who at one point came to the yard and tried to
6 defend us, tried to protect us from them. I think they said that this
7 man was Nasim.
8 Q. And besides this gentleman named Nasim, did they tell you any
9 other names of soldiers, of KLA soldiers, that they recognised?
10 A. Later on they told me about Zeqir, who beat us the most in that
11 small room, the one who told us to strip to the waist and who beat us
12 really severely. And I asked them, Who's that one? And they said, This
13 is Zeqir.
14 Q. Mr. Stijovic, let's now get to that second location where you
15 were beaten. You mentioned earlier in your testimony that at some point,
16 you left your cousins' home in Dubrava and went towards Glodjane. Is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How was it that you got there?
20 A. We walked. They told us to put our hands in the air and keep our
21 heads down and not look left or right. We passed a lot of their soldiers
22 along the road, and everyone was hitting us on our way to Glodjane. Once
23 there, they took us inside this house, where there were quite many
24 soldiers. There was security outside the house in the yard. Some were
25 cleaning their weapons, and some were just standing there. They took us
1 into the house, up to the first floor, and left us in a corridor outside
2 a small room where we sat down on the floor. After this, they took
3 Dragoslav into that small room.
4 Q. And let me stop you there again, if I may for a moment. You said
5 that as you were walking along the road to Gllogjan, there were other
6 soldiers along the way that beat you. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. As you were being beaten along that road, do you -- was anything
9 further said to you by any of the men -- any of those men who were
10 beating you?
11 A. Mostly they were shouting abuse at us.
12 Q. And when you say "abuse," again, please, just for the record,
13 what do you mean?
14 A. They were cursing our Serb mother, all the things that I've told
15 you about, what business had we being in Kosovo at all, that sort of
17 Q. These men that you passed along the road to Gllogjan, how were
18 they dressed, please, and how were they armed, if you can tell us?
19 A. They had automatic weapons. There were civilians and men in
20 uniform, but all of them were armed. Some had military bottoms and
21 civilian sweaters on top, and they were people who were fully kitted-out
22 in military uniform, and they were civilians, too, who were carrying
24 Q. Did you again see the insignia of the KLA you described earlier
25 worn by some of these soldiers?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. From the time you left the house in Dubrava until you arrived at
3 the house in Gllogjan, how many KLA soldiers would you say you saw, sir?
4 A. I can't say exactly, about a hundred I'd say, about a hundred
5 soldiers, give or take a soldier or two but thereabouts.
6 Q. Now, before we start talking about what happened inside the house
7 in Gllogjan, just tell us, if you could, what was your physical state as
8 you were walking along the road toward the house. How were you feeling?
9 Describe your injuries for us?
10 A. Dragoslav's condition was the most serious of all three of us.
11 The two of us, the rest of us, were bleeding too and we were forced to
12 walk with so much pain.
13 Q. On the way to Gllogjan, this is from your cousins' home to the
14 second house you were taken, was Dragoslav able to walk along -- during
15 that time?
16 A. He was barely able to walk. We helped him along, but he
17 progressed very slowly.
18 Q. You said you were bleeding, Mr. Stijovic. Where were you
19 bleeding from on your body, please?
20 A. My head, my head for the most part.
21 Q. You told us you were taken to a specific home in Gllogjan.
22 Describe the home for us, tell us what it was, if you know?
23 A. It was a house just next to the road, the ground floor and the
24 top floor. I think that side was -- or that's how I remember it. They
25 took us into the house and left us in the corridor, after which they took
1 Dragoslav into a room. It didn't take long, and by the time he was out
2 of that room he was in a very serious condition. They threw him out and
3 he fell down on the floor next to us and they took Mijat away and into
4 that room. I tried to help Dragoslav. Somehow I heard that they were
5 beating Mijat. They were beating him for some time, must have been for
6 an hour or so. Mijat was then thrown out and I was called into the room.
7 I walked into the room. There were two soldiers there, there was a table
8 in the middle of that very small room and a chair as well as two
9 soldiers, three sometimes. Other soldiers came in but two were a
10 constant presence in that room and they were in charge of hitting and
11 beating people.
12 Q. Let me stop you there, please, for a moment. Did you get an
13 impression as to what this home was being used as, if you can tell us?
14 A. Well, I think it was their headquarters, command post of some
15 sort, something like that, because the security was the heaviest there.
16 Most of the soldiers were concentrated there in this place where we were
17 taken to.
18 Q. You said at some after you arrived, Dragoslav was taking -- taken
19 into a room and yourself and Mijat stayed outside the room. Could you
20 hear -- during that time-period, could you hear anything that was going
21 on inside the room?
22 A. Well, while Dragoslav was in there, we heard some talking
23 inside -- from inside the room, but when they opened the door and they
24 threw him out he was already in a very poor shape because of the beating
25 that he had sustained. And he could no longer take the beating. He
1 started to lose consciousness. He was in severe pain, and I remember
2 that Nasim brought some pills to him. He said, Take one of these, these
3 are good for pain.
4 Q. How long was Dragoslav in the room before he was dumped back out
5 in the outside area?
6 A. Well, I'm not sure, about half an hour, maybe more, maybe less,
7 but something like half an hour.
8 Q. You said that when he was brought out he -- your words were: "He
9 started to lose consciousness." I want to ask you: Did he lose
10 consciousness? Were you able to talk to him during that period? Please
11 give us more detail about that period?
12 A. From time to time, yes, I was able to. He would come to for a
13 little bit and then he -- the pain would come back and the pain was so
14 severe that he would lose consciousness all the time. He drifted in and
16 Q. Were there times that he -- I want to ask you again, were there
17 times that he -- when he drifted in from consciousness or when he was not
18 unconscious, that you were able to talk to him during this period of
20 A. Well, no, no. Because even when he was conscious he was moaning
21 and complaining about the pain -- well, we may have exchanged a word or
22 two, but I can't remember now at this point because a lot of time has
23 passed since then.
24 Q. How long was Mijat kept inside the room, if you can tell us, and
25 also could you hear anything that was going on when Mijat was taken
1 inside the room?
2 A. Well, I heard the blows, and I heard Mijat moan because of the
3 blows. I don't know how long he was in there. I can't remember. I know
4 that when he was thrown out, I was taken in, and then I was asked
5 questions like, Do you have weapons? How many police are there in
6 Decani? To my mind, these were just questions that gave them a pretext
7 for them to beat us. They beat us anyway, but they used this information
8 and those questions to -- as a pretext to beat us.
9 So they beat me for about an hour, those two, all the time, and
10 Zeqir was among them. And then he ordered me to take off my jacket and
11 my shirt, because he thought that this bat or baton that he was using
12 wasn't really inflicting all that much pain. And then he made me face
13 the wall and to look at the corner, and then they used -- they --
14 actually, they beat me over my head and my back. And whoever got into
15 the room beat me, too.
16 And after a while they, brought Mijat back into the room, and
17 Zeqir ordered him to strip to the waist. He did so, and then he went on
18 to beat him. So then they beat both of us for a long time. I don't know
19 how long it took, but it was a long time. And then they threw us out,
20 and when they did so Dragoslav was in a very, very bad shape.
21 Q. All right. You've -- you've said quite a lot there. Let me
22 catch up to you for a moment.
23 You said that when you were taken inside the room, there was two
24 men there. You identified one, I believe, as Zeqir. Do you know who the
25 other one was that was inside the room?
1 A. No, I didn't know these people, so that I can't tell you. I
2 didn't know them. I was told about Zeqir by Mijat. Mijat told me, Zeqir
3 is the one who beat us with this bat or baton. It had some kind of a
4 spring wound around it, and there was a metal ball at the top, and this
5 caused quite serious injuries.
6 This lasted for a long time, and then we got out, and some
7 people -- soldiers and some civilians, so some were wearing uniforms and
8 some civilian clothes, they went in to get into the guest-room, which
9 they call "sobura," and a man that I knew was among them, Deli Lekaj
10 [Realtime transcript read in error "Jekaj"]. I knew him quite well. He
11 had a hand-held launcher with him. He was in civilian clothes, but he
12 had a grenade launcher, and he said, Well, why did you come here? And I
13 said to him that I had come here to help my cousins. He told me, If they
14 let you go alive, don't ever go back to Dasinovac because it's just a
15 matter of time before we put a roadblock on the road leading to Dasinovac
16 in the village of Pozar.
17 Q. All right. Let me back up just for a moment. During the beating
18 inside the room with this baton, how many times were you beaten with it
19 if you can tell us, please?
20 A. Well, two or three hours. They beat us all the time without let,
21 with the baton, with their fists, with rifle-butts. They really beat us.
22 Q. Can you describe for us the force of the blows that were landing
23 on your body? If you can tell us anything about that, please.
24 A. Well, he beat us with as much force as he had. He would, in
25 fact, take a few steps back and then inflict the blow with this baton in
1 order to make the blow as strong as possible.
2 Q. This baton, describe it. How long was it? Can you show us with
3 your hands?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, do we really need these details? I
5 mean, this is the third witness on the event. Do we have to know whether
6 it was wood or plastic? I mean, the picture seems to be described in
7 sufficient detail for the time being.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. KEARNEY: I'll move on, Your Honour. Thank you.
10 Q. You said that at some point, Mijat was brought into the room with
11 you and the beating continued. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. And after that, you were both thrown back outside the room. Is
14 that true as well?
15 A. Yes, we were thrown out of the room to the place where Dragoslav
16 was already down on the concrete floor, and he was in a very, very bad
18 Q. Describe Dragoslav's condition at that time for us, please. Was
19 he -- first of all, what was his state of consciousness at that point?
20 A. He was in severe pain. He was vomiting blood, and some soldiers
21 would approach him and kick him and hit him, despite his condition, there
22 in this corridor where we were.
23 Q. Did you yourself recognise any of the soldiers that were beating
24 him or kicking him at that point?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You mentioned that it was during this time that you had the
2 conversation with a gentleman you knew named Lekaj. Is that right?
3 A. Yes, Deli Lekaj.
4 Q. How was it that you knew Mr. Lekaj?
5 A. Well, I know him. I came to know him because he socialised with
6 a relative of mine, so I got to know him through this relative, and we
7 continued up to be on -- we were on good terms, and we went to Prizren to
8 get some wheat there. He had a truck and he drove it.
9 Q. You mentioned earlier that he was carrying a weapon. Was he
10 dressed in military or civilian clothing at that time?
11 A. He was in civilian clothes.
12 Q. The men who were beating you inside the room, were they in
13 military or civilian clothing?
14 A. One had a regular military uniform, and the rest had uniforms --
15 civilian clothes, because some of -- they would come in and then go out.
16 So all kinds of people wearing all kinds of clothes.
17 Q. You mentioned earlier that when you spoke to Mr. Lekaj, he had
18 words of advice for you. Is that correct? Please tell us again what
19 they were, if you could.
20 A. Yes, yes. His advice to me was, If they let you go from here to
21 go home. If they let you go alive, do not go to Dasinovac anymore, do
22 not take the road leading to your house because it's just a matter of
23 time before we go out and put a roadblock in at Pozar. And then you
24 would be imprisoned again, maybe tortured, maybe something even worse
25 than that. But at any rate, do not go back home.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Stijovic, that advice about the -- or that warning about
2 the roadblock near Pozar, in your -- based on your own knowledge, did
3 that -- at some point, did that prediction come true?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When was that? Tell us about that.
6 A. Well, I don't know when it was that it came true, but I know that
7 Stanisa Radosevic, Novak Stijovic, and Stanisa Radosevic's mother, they
8 were, in fact, captured there in the village of Pozar.
9 Q. At some point that day after the beatings, were you released?
10 A. Did they release us? Well, we were there in the corridor. They
11 had the security guarding us. They took Mijat with them to fix the Lada.
12 They said you should come with us and fix the Lada. Dragoslav and I
13 remained there, and then we were taken out into the yard in front of the
14 house to wash the blood off at a water-pump that was there, and he had to
15 pump the water, even though he was in such a bad state, in order for me
16 to be able to wash the blood off. And then I did the same for him.
17 They forced us to clean off the blood that we were covered with
18 on our heads and ears, and so on. Probably when they decided to let us
19 go, but that was just before we set off for -- well, Mijat came back
20 later on. He said that he couldn't fix the Lada. They then took us and
21 ordered us to go back to Dubrava to their house. So we walked and then a
22 tractor came by. And because Dragoslav was in such a bad shape, we put
23 him in the tractor, and we slowly walked behind this tractor until we
24 reached their house in Dubrava. Mijat was taken in front of the house --
25 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment before we go back to Dubrava.
1 You indicated at some point after Mijat went to fix the Lada, you and
2 Dragoslav went out to the water-pump to clean your wounds. Is that true?
3 A. Yes, they took us out to an area in front of the house for us to
5 Q. When you -- you went from the corridor where you had been
6 detained out to the water-pump, how did you get there? Did you -- did
7 you and Dragoslav walk? Were you carried? Were you dragged? How did
8 you get outside, please?
9 A. Well, I helped Dragoslav to stand up. There was some soldiers
10 guarding us there in the corridor, and they escorted us. It was very
11 difficult. We could barely get down -- get him down, and even though he
12 was in such a bad shape, they refused to use the pump, to help us pump
13 the water, but we had to help each other do that, to wash off the blood.
14 I assume that because they had decided to let us go, they didn't want us
15 to be all bloody.
16 Q. All right. Let me stop you there, Mr. Stijovic. My question
17 simply is this: Did you -- you said you helped Dragoslav down towards
18 the pump. Was he able to walk on his own a little bit, or did you have
19 to physically carry him to the water-pump?
20 A. Well, I had to carry him even though he was able to stand on his
21 own two feet, but he was very shaky. So I didn't really carry him in my
23 Q. And even though he was shaking on his feet, it's your testimony
24 that he was able to physically work the water-pump. Is that true?
25 A. He had to.
1 Q. Please tell us about the trip back to Dubrava. You indicated a
2 tractor came, and Dragoslav was put on it and you walked. Is that true?
3 A. Yes, yes, because he was in such a bad shape. They put him on a
4 tractor -- in fact, we helped him climb up on the tractor, and we slowly
5 walked behind him, Mijat and I, of course, and the soldiers that were
6 escorting us and those that were standing by the road.
7 When we reached their house, we stayed there at the very entrance
8 into the yard. They took Mijat to a corner of the house. He had to
9 remove the covers from a fruit tree of some sort that they had put there
10 in order to protect it against the cold. Then they went into the house.
11 They took some fabric, a sheet or something. They cut it into pieces and
12 blindfolded us, tied our hands, put us in a car, and took us to the
13 village of Babaloc, to an area close to the village of Babaloc.
14 From time to time, they'd stop as we drove. I don't know whether
15 there were any check-points there or just groups of soldiers. I don't
16 know how that was organised, and these people would ask, Who are these
17 people? Why are you letting them go? And their response was, These are
18 good guys. We decided we'd let them go and so on.
19 So that occurred at several places. So they took us -- it was in
20 a red Opel Ascona car, that was the car that we were in and the car that
21 they took us into Babaloc to an area close to the refugee camp. And then
22 there they threw us out of the car and told us to look straight, not to
23 look back, not to look to any side because otherwise they'd kill us. We
24 walked slowly, and at one stage Dragoslav was unable to walk any further
25 so I remained with him. I tried to help him move, albeit very slowly.
1 And Mijat ran to the refugee camp and came back with a man who then drove
2 us to the health centre in Decani, where we had our wounds bandaged and
3 were sent to the hospital in Decani.
4 Q. Let me stop you there --
5 A. The moment we got there Dragoslav --
6 Q. Before we start to talk about the hospital in Decani, I want to
7 back up for a moment, if I may. You mentioned earlier in your testimony
8 that you -- from the trip to -- from Dubrava to an area near Babaloc, you
9 came across what you characterise as check-points. You were still
10 blindfolded at this time, is that right, Mr. Stijovic?
11 A. Yes, yes, but there were some groups there that would stop the
12 Ascona and would ask, Who are these people? Why are you letting them go?
13 And some people would curse us. And Nasim then said, Well, these are
14 good guys. We decided we'd let them go.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I have one question.
16 You talked about the tractor that took you from Gllogjan to
17 Dragoslav's place. Who was driving that tractor?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know those people from
19 Glodjane. I don't know who it was that drove the tractor.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But it was some one of the people that had captured
21 you or belonging to the group?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he was not in the group
23 that had captured us, but I don't know because I hardly knew anyone in
24 the group. So I can't really tell you whether he was in it or not,
25 whether he had participated in this or not.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
3 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. How about the men who were driving the red Ascona car, were they
5 among your initial captors? Who were they, please?
6 A. I don't know who drove the car, I don't know the man, but in the
7 front passenger seat of the Ascona there was Nasim - I think it's -
8 Haradinaj, I'm not sure about his last name, but his first name was
10 Q. There was one or two men in the front seat of the Ascona?
11 A. Two.
12 Q. Nasim, the man you mentioned, was he driving or was he the
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, if you read the last question: "I
15 don't know the man, but in the front passenger seat of the Ascona there
16 was Nasim..."
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. KEARNEY: I stand corrected. Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Were both of those men armed wearing uniform?
20 A. I can't remember. Nasim was wearing a sweater and camouflage
21 trousers, but for the other two I don't know because my -- I was
22 blindfolded, and they didn't even get out of the car at all.
23 Q. When you say "the other two," were there two other men in the car
24 besides Nasim and yourself and your cousins or -- please tell us exactly
25 what you mean?
1 A. Nasim, the driver, and the three of us in the back seat all tied
3 Q. When you were taken to a -- you said you were taken to an area
4 near Babaloc. You were taken out of the car, and you were blindfolded,
5 and the ties to your hands were taken off at that point. Is that
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Were there -- at the point where you were untied, were there KLA
9 soldiers there?
10 A. Where? When they untied our hands? The two that took us there
11 untied our hands. We were not supposed to look around or to look back.
12 We were supposed to look straight ahead, so I don't know whether there
13 were any KLA soldiers there apart from the two of them that had actually
14 brought us to that area.
15 Q. The two soldiers at this point, Nasim and the other gentleman,
16 did they have their weapons drawn at this point when you were being
17 untied? Were the weapons out and pointed at you, or were they -- they
18 holstered somehow?
19 A. When they untied our hands, their weapons were drawn, and they
20 told us to walk straight and not to look back because otherwise they'd
21 kill us or shoot us. That's what they meant.
22 Q. And did you do that? Did you walk away from them at that point?
23 A. Yes, yes. We walked. We didn't dare look -- to look back.
24 First, the three of us went together, and then after a while I stayed
25 back with Dragoslav to help him, and Mijat, Kika, ran to the refugee camp
1 and asked a man with a car to drive us to the hospital in Decani, to the
2 infirmary in Decani.
3 Q. This is the -- this is a refugee camp, where? Was it in Babaloc,
4 Mr. Stijovic?
5 A. Yes, yes, in Babaloc.
6 Q. From the point where you were released until you actually arrived
7 into Babaloc, how far was that? How far outside of Babaloc were you
9 A. Well, about 500 metres from the camp, maybe a little bit more or
10 a little bit less, but something like that, as far as I can remember.
11 Q. And this refugee camp you're referring to, this was a refugee
12 camp for Serbs, I presume? Is that a fair statement?
13 A. For Serbs from Albania, yes.
14 Q. At that time, was the village of Babaloc a Serb-controlled area,
15 if you know?
16 A. I don't understand your question. What do you mean
17 Serb-controlled? This was where Serbs who had fled from Albania had
18 their accommodation. This is what had been set up for them, and mostly
19 these people were there.
20 Q. When you arrived at the area of the refugee camp, did you see any
21 either Serb police or Serb soldiers at that time?
22 A. No, no, no.
23 Q. How about any more KLA soldiers, did you see any more KLA
24 soldiers in that area in Babaloc in the refugee camp?
25 A. No.
1 Q. In the refugee camp in Babaloc, the Serbs who you are talking
2 about who had fled from Albania, were they allowed to move around freely?
3 Were they prisoners there? Were they under guard of someone or were they
4 just living there?
5 A. Where, in Babaloc.
6 Q. Yes?
7 A. They were living there, that's where their homes were. They were
8 moving around.
9 Q. You indicated at some point after this, on this day, you went to
10 receive medical treatment. Can you tell us more about that, please?
11 A. First we were admitted to the out-patient clinic in Decani, where
12 we were administered first aid and then they told us to go to the Pec
13 hospital. We went there and they took X-rays of Dragoslav's injuries and
14 put him on the first ambulance to Pristina. They told Mijat and me to
15 stay there and receive the hospital treatment, which I refused and so did
16 Mijat for reasons of our own personal safety. I felt more comfortable
17 being at home among my own people, my family. I was too scared to stay
19 Q. Can you describe the physical injuries you suffered during this
20 day of beating for us, please?
21 A. I had cuts on my head, gashes on my ear, all over my head. My
22 back was covered in bruises, my rump from the clubs and the blows that
23 they dealt us.
24 Q. How long did you suffer from these injuries after they were
25 inflicted on you?
1 A. Over 20 days and more, 20 days and more. I still had the bruises
2 and the shooting pain.
3 Q. At some point, Mr. Stijovic, did you actually leave Kosovo?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When was that?
6 A. I left Kosovo in June 1999.
7 Q. Why did you leave?
8 A. Why did I leave? I left because I was too scared to stay. The
9 way I'd fared the first time around, I certainly never wished for
10 anything like that to happen to me again or worse.
11 Q. When you left Kosovo, did you leave any of your personal property
13 A. All that I had was left behind. I had a house in Dasinovac, a
14 stable, 4 acres [as interpreted] and 75 ares of land and it all remained
15 in Dasinovac.
16 Q. After your beating and your release, did you ever actually try to
17 go back to your land in Dasinovac?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. KEARNEY: No further questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kearney.
22 Mr. Emmerson, I'm just wondering whether it would be --
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- better to have a break now or --
25 MR. EMMERSON: There's one minor technical matter I need to
1 attend to, before I cross-examine in any event. If Your Honours were to
2 resume by half past 12.00, I'm confident that I could complete the
3 cross-examination of this witness before the end of the next session and
4 leave time for any re-examination as well.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 Is there any need as far as you've heard now, Mr. Guy-Smith or
7 Mr. Harvey?
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: If any questions were to be asked, they would be
9 three in number.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Mr. Harvey.
12 MR. HARVEY: Certainly not more.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Then I suggest that we first ask Madam Usher to escort the
15 witness out of the courtroom. We have a break, and we'll resume in
16 approximately 20 minutes, Mr. Stijovic.
17 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, just a scheduling matter. Did the
18 Chamber -- Trial Chambers receive communication from the Office of the
19 Prosecutor about scheduling for today? We -- even though we had other
20 witnesses --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
22 MR. KEARNEY: -- we --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we've received that.
24 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: There's one other matter before I give you an
2 opportunity to raise any matters, Mr. Emmerson. There is an issue about
3 the Chamber having requested the Prosecution to provide us with material
4 in relation to, I would say, general security situation in Kosovo. We
5 also do understand that the Prosecution has some fear that such material
6 might be -- the Defence might -- that this material might be contaminated
7 by matters which might not be favourable to the accused, and therefore
8 the suggestion is, as I understand, to present to the Chamber stipulated
9 facts on the situation.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Can I just respond briefly?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. EMMERSON: The position is this: The material that Your
13 Honour's requested and there's other material, too, is highly variable in
14 quality. Some of it has already been presented to the Trial Chamber and
15 the Appeals Chamber in the course of provisional release applications,
16 and in each instance findings have been made that there was no basis
17 certainly so far as my client was concerned to draw inferences adverse to
18 him from the material. But there are a number of issues that it gives
19 rise to, including, first of all, the -- just -- if I may just briefly
20 outline and indicate where we are going.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. EMMERSON: First of all, the potential for other evidence to
23 have to be either obtained or adduced; secondly the appropriate form by
24 which that type of material is properly to be introduced; and thirdly, to
25 what issues does it properly go. I had an opportunity to speak briefly
1 with a member of the Trial Chamber staff, who indicated to me that the
2 Trial Chamber's interest was in respect of the third of the criteria
3 outlined for witness protection measures in respect of those witnesses
4 who had not received threats themselves; that criterion being the
5 criterion that there would be an unstable situation --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the third criteria is there exists an unstable
7 security situation in that territory, which is particularly unfavourable
8 to witnesses who appear before the Tribunal. That's the criteria.
9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Your Honour, can I respond in this way at
10 this point. The appropriate approach is a matter which is actively under
11 discussion amongst the Defence teams and, of course, would be the subject
12 of discussion with our clients.
13 One option, and it's an option that I think we've pursued in all
14 cases, save one, thus far, is that the Defence have not and do not object
15 to protective measures in respect of any witness who requests them,
16 providing the second criterion is properly established; in other words,
17 and -- and the first, of course. In other words, that the evidence is
18 such that it may antagonise; and, secondly, that the witness has a proper
19 connection to Kosovo. That has been our position thus far, and I have no
20 reason to suppose it will change. The only witness in respect of whom
21 we've raised any issue in that regard was the late request for protective
22 measures for Stanisa Radosevic, which were not granted because they were
23 essentially based on criteria that didn't fulfil the first or the second
24 of the two limbs.
25 So that much, I think, is clear at this stage. There are active
1 discussions amongst the Defence and in due course between the parties
2 about the possibility of stipulation if that is necessary, but it may
3 well be it doesn't need to reach that point if there is no objection from
4 the Defence in respect of protective measures which, as I say, has been
5 the position in any event hitherto. What we're anxious to avoid is
6 satellite litigation on the meaning of this material, appropriate
7 inferences in the ways in which it is to be introduced and tested if it's
8 to be part of a formal decision-making process by the Trial Chamber. So
9 that -- I'm sorry for that rather lengthy short explanation.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear to the Chamber.
11 Mr. Di Fazio and Mr. Kearney, the term "satellite litigation" is
12 new for me, but it clearly expresses what might become a concern if we
13 have to litigate in full detail on all kind of matters just in order to
14 be able to apply the third part of the test I just read.
15 Mr. Di Fazio, is the -- I mean, if both parties would agree that
16 that situation does exist in general terms, of course it could be that
17 once you would say, well, exception should be made for this and this
18 witness where the situation is totally different from what in general
19 terms exists in the area. But is the Prosecution willing to see whether
20 they can reach an agreement and to make a common stipulation to the
21 Chamber, so that we don't have -- so that we don't have to spend a lot of
22 time on considering whether or not the third element of the test would be
24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, both Mr. Kearney and
25 myself are in a bit of a vacuum concerning this issue; however, one thing
1 I do feel confident about is that the Prosecution would be willing to see
2 whether we can reach an agreement. I'm certain -- I'm certain of that.
3 And I'm sure that we can at least initiate discussions to see if there's
4 possibility of that bearing fruit --
5 MR. EMMERSON: I had, in fact, already raised it with Mr. Re --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I take it then that the Prosecution will
7 not file any material up till the moment that these conversations have
8 been concluded?
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm certain that that would be the case.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, the Chamber would like to be
11 informed if no agreement could be reached, because then the Chamber, of
12 course, would have to consider what would be the appropriate way of
13 filing any material.
14 Yes, thank you. Any other matter?
15 MR. EMMERSON: No.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then we adjourn until 25 minutes to 1.00, that would
17 still be sufficient?
18 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We need 20 minutes. Yes.
20 --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give you an opportunity to cross-examine
23 the witness, Mr. Emmerson, I've got one question for Mr. Kearney.
24 Mr. Kearney, there was one question you introduced by - let me
25 just find it - by saying -- you said something like, You mentioned
1 Mr. Lekaj. And I couldn't find where the witness mentioned that in his
3 MR. KEARNEY: It was there earlier, Your Honour. He had -- he
4 was getting -- giving a narrative-type answer. He had mentioned a person
5 he knew, having met in the corridor outside the room, named Lekaj and
6 then I came back to it later in the testimony.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the first time I couldn't --
8 MR. KEARNEY: That was Deli, I believe, D-e-l-i.
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The first time the name is misspelled as
10 J-e-k-a-j. This is page 56, line 8.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Yes. Thank you very much.
12 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.
13 Mr. Stijovic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Emmerson, who
14 is counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
15 MR. EMMERSON: Will Your Honour just give me one moment.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
17 Q. Mr. Stijovic, before I start, I want to make sure that you fully
18 understand the questions that you're being asked in a language that you
19 understand. You're nodding. You've understood clearly the questions
20 you've been asked by Mr. Kearney, for example?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. You had no problem understanding what it was he was asking you
23 through the translation?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And, in particular, you understood the questions he asked you
1 when he first stood up --
2 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I'll just wait a moment.
3 Q. In particular, you understood the questions that he asked you
4 when he first stood up about your employment?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. No difficulty with understanding what he was asking you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Can I just ask you for one matter of clarification, please?
9 MR. EMMERSON: Could we have on the screen Defence document
10 identification 1D0040029, and in the B/C/S version it's a different
11 number, because it's not linked at the moment, which is 1D0040038. They
12 are linked, apparently.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Stijovic, can we just look towards the bottom and check
14 that that is your signature. I think your signature appears --
15 MR. EMMERSON: Perhaps the witness could just briefly be shown
16 the English, first of all, the first page of the English statement.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. EMMERSON:
19 Q. Do you see at the bottom there, is that your signature?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Can we again go back to the B/C/S version for the
23 Q. This is a translation into your own language of the statement
24 that you made to the Prosecution on the 28th of May, 2002. Do you see
25 that? You can see the details there with your name and so forth.
1 Can we just look down, please, a little further on the screen
2 under the line there, just immediately beneath the line. On the
3 right-hand side, it records that your former occupation was that of
4 carpenter. Is that right?
5 A. Yes, the furniture factory.
6 Q. Yes. And your current occupation in May 2002 is described as a
7 receptionist with the VJ. Is that right?
8 A. A contractor in the VJ, yes.
9 Q. And --
10 A. As of 2002, a soldier contractor in the VJ -- as of 2000.
11 Q. What is a soldier contractor in the VJ? What does it mean?
12 A. I have a contract. I control some construction equipment. If
13 you don't turn in a satisfactory performance after a year, your contract
14 is terminated. That's what it means.
15 Q. I understand. You said a soldier contractor. What does that
16 mean, a soldier contractor?
17 A. What do I mean when I say that?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. As of 2000, I have been working as a soldier contractor with the
20 army. I oversee their construction equipment.
21 Q. And do you have a rank?
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer, Mr. Stijovic,
24 about your rank.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lance-corporal.
1 MR. EMMERSON:
2 Q. And when did you first become an employee or contractor,
3 lance-corporal contractor for the VJ?
4 A. On the 3rd of April, 2000.
5 Q. I want to ask you about a question and answer that you gave in
6 answer to Mr. Kearney. You may remember I asked you just a few moments
7 ago: Did you fully understand the questions that you were being asked?
8 And you told us that you did --
9 MR. EMMERSON: And this is for Your Honours line 39 -- sorry,
10 page 39, it's the very end of page 38, line 25?
11 Q. I'm going to read this to you slowly, Mr. Stijovic, so that you
12 understand what it is you were asked and what you told us on oath.
13 Mr. Kearney asked you this: "Tell us, please, today how you are employed
14 first of all?"
15 And you answered: "I am a construction machinery operator now.
16 "Q. During the course of your employment career, did you ever
17 work for the VJ, please?"
18 And you answered: "No."
19 Could you tell us why that was, please?
20 MR. KEARNEY: Well, Your Honour, I'm going to -- I'm sorry,
21 Mr. Stijovic.
22 I'm going to ask that Mr. Emmerson then ask the following
23 question in that sequence. I think it -- without the follow-up
24 question --
25 MR. EMMERSON: No, no, I'm --
1 MR. KEARNEY: -- that clarifies the earlier question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney we -- could you please answer the
3 question put to you by Mr. Emmerson. Mr. Emmerson asked you when you
4 said: "No" to a question whether you ever worked for the VJ why you did
5 answer in that way, why you just told Mr. Emmerson that you --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until 2000 I had never been
7 employed by the Yugoslav Army. That's how I understood the question. As
8 of 2000, I got a job with the army.
9 MR. EMMERSON:
10 Q. The question, Mr. Stijovic --
11 A. Perhaps I misunderstood the question the first time around. I
12 meant it was in reference to the time between 1997 and 1999.
13 Q. I'll come back to that, because I asked you just a moment ago
14 when I first stood up whether you had fully understood Mr. Kearney's
15 questions to you?
16 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Mr. Emmerson, if you look at page
17 38, line 23, you'll see that a certain time-frame is introduced there.
18 The point is clear you make at this moment. I don't know whether to what
19 extent you want to pursue the matter but I leave it to you.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Can I pursue it the way Mr. Kearney just asked me
21 to because it was clarified with the witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. EMMERSON:
24 Q. After you had told us, on oath, that you were never employed by
25 the VJ, Mr. Stijovic, you were then asked: "Were you ever in the army,
2 And you say: "I was in the army.
3 "Q. What dates were you in the army?
4 "A. 1991 and 1992."
5 Mr. Stijovic, why didn't you tell the Trial Chamber that you were
6 a lance-corporal in the VJ from 2000 until today?
7 A. I didn't understand the question. I was talking about 1997,
8 1998, and 1999. I didn't understand the question to be in reference to
9 the period after 2000.
10 Q. Mr. Stijovic, you were asked again very clearly: "Were you ever
11 in the army?"
12 And you replied that you were, not in 1998 but in 1991 and 1992.
13 Now, why was it that you didn't say to the Tribunal: I was in the army
14 in 1991 and 1992, and since 2000 and to date I've been a lance-corporal?
15 Why didn't you tell the Trial Chamber that?
16 A. I thought we were talking about the period up to 1999.
17 Q. I see. Has anybody suggested to you, Mr. Stijovic, that it would
18 be a good idea if you and your cousins concealed the involvement of
19 yourself and other members of your family in the VJ or the police?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Let me ask you this then: Predrag Stojanovic, he was a police
22 officer in 1998, wasn't he?
23 A. Predrag Stojanovic, you mean Dragan? I know him as Dragan.
24 Q. Very well. And --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the same?
1 MR. EMMERSON: I don't know.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. Is Dragan another name for Predrag?
5 A. It's possible, it's possible. I know him as Dragan.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but isn't the witness referring to Dragoslav at
7 this moment? That's what -- when you're talking about Drag --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not Dragoslav, Dragan. That's what
9 we called him, Dragan. I'm not quite sure that his real name is actually
11 MR. EMMERSON:
12 Q. Let's just be clear. Dragoslav's nickname is Drago, isn't it?
13 A. Dragoslav?
14 Q. His nickname is Drago, isn't it?
15 A. I don't know of that nickname.
16 Q. I see. Let's just go through the brothers briefly. There's
17 Mijat you've told us about; you knew him?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. There is Dragoslav you've told us about; you knew him?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. There's a brother called Veselin, is that right, or Vesko?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And can you tell us the remainder, please, the other two
24 brothers' names?
25 A. Vlado and Dragan, could be Predrag. I'm not sure. I know him as
2 Q. Now, answer the next question very carefully, Mr. Stijovic, and
3 search your memory and so there's no misunderstanding. I'm not asking
4 you about any particular time-period. As far as you know, apart from
5 Dragan, were any of the other brothers ever involved in the police or the
6 army in any way?
7 A. Not that I know.
8 Q. And you yourself were not in the police reserve at any time?
9 A. No, never.
10 Q. I see. Can I ask you then again by reference to some of the
11 evidence that you've already given to us, you told us about the incident
12 when the armed men came into the Stojanovics' house on the 18th of April,
13 beat Dragoslav, and then beat you and Mijat. That's the part of your
14 evidence I want to ask you about. And you were asked whether you learnt
15 the names of any of those men from either Dragoslav or Mijat, and you
16 gave us two names. You told us that they gave you the name of Nasim, and
17 you described him as the person who tried to protect us.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that's the man you've described as Nasim Haradinaj, is it?
20 A. I think he's a Haradinaj, but I'm not sure about his surname.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is the way the witness put it also last
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I think that's right.
24 Q. And what did he do to try to protect you?
25 A. He was pushing the soldiers away from us and trying to keep them
1 from beating us.
2 Q. Was he saying anything to them?
3 A. He was, but I didn't understand what.
4 Q. I see. But it was clear to you he was trying to stop them
5 beating you?
6 A. Yes, he was pushing them away from us.
7 Q. Now, in your witness statement I'm going to read to you a
8 sentence that appears there, with your signature on the same page. I'll
9 read it slowly to you. You said: "I think that Nasim was in charge of
10 the soldiers at my cousins' house, as he was the one who eventually
11 ordered the others to stop beating us, and he was also the one who gave
12 us -- who gave orders for us to be taken outside."
13 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, may I just state for a moment in the
14 future if Mr. Emmerson refers to a particular part of a statement, just
15 for ease of the Prosecutor to find that statement, could we know what
16 year the statement was and what page it was taken from, please?
17 MR. EMMERSON: I've already taken the witness to the statement,
18 identified his signature, and given the date of the 28th of May, 2002.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I take it Mr. Kearney is asking where to find it in
20 the statement, so for us to be later to --
21 MR. EMMERSON: Page 3 of the text, paragraph 4.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 MR. EMMERSON: I'll ask the question again.
24 Q. You said in your witness statement: "I think Nasim was in charge
25 of the soldiers at my cousins' house, as he was the one who eventually
1 ordered the others to stop beating us, and he was also the one who gave
2 orders for us to be taken outside."
3 Does that accord with your recollection?
4 A. I said I think he was one of the most influential people there.
5 I didn't say "in charge." It may have been a mistranslation. I said one
6 of the most influential people wielding the most influence in that group.
7 It could have been a mistranslation. I never said he was in charge.
8 Q. Was there somebody else there who seemed to be in charge, above
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. I see. But despite having this influence, he wasn't able to stop
12 the other people from beating you?
13 A. It was only for brief moments, but then he left and they
14 continued to beat us.
15 Q. So did they stop when he told them to stop and tried to pull them
17 A. He was pushing them from us, pushing them away, fending them off.
18 Those were whole groups of people beating us, and he would push one group
19 at a time in a bid to protect us.
20 Q. But despite the fact that he seemed to you to be the person with
21 influence, he wasn't able to stop this from happening?
22 A. For as long as he was there, he was quite successful, but he
23 didn't stay for long enough to entirely protect us from the beatings.
24 Q. So it was only when he left that the beatings continued?
25 A. Yes, as soon as he left, they would beat us again.
1 Q. Now, you gave us another name that you had been told by Mijat and
2 Dragoslav who you described as the person who had beaten you in the small
3 room, and the name I think you gave us was Zeqir Nimonaj, is that
4 correct, or just Zeqir perhaps?
5 A. Zeqir, Zeqir.
6 Q. Now, looking at your witness statement, and it's the same
7 paragraph as I was referring to before, you say this: "I can only recall
8 the names of two of these soldiers who were familiar with Dragoslav.
9 These were the men with the first names Nasim and Zeqir."
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And those were the names that Dragoslav and Mijat gave you, were
13 A. Yes. I memorised those two names. There were other names being
14 dropped, but I did not memorise any. I remembered Nasim because he was
15 the one who tried to protect us, and I remembered Zeqir because he was
16 the one who administered the most severe beatings.
17 Q. But you don't remember any other specific names that they gave
19 A. Well, I don't. I wasn't asking about the names because I didn't
20 know any of the people there.
21 Q. You don't, for example, remember them telling you that
22 Daut Haradinaj was amongst the men in the room?
23 A. Daut Haradinaj? I didn't comment on those issues with them.
24 Q. So they never mentioned that to you, is that correct, they never
25 mentioned that name to you?
1 A. I didn't discuss this. They did mention some names. They did
2 mention Daut, yes, but I couldn't remember that when I was giving my
3 statement. I don't know who that man is.
4 Q. I see. So you've given your evidence-in-chief, you've given your
5 witness statement, and you're now recalling, are you, that they did
6 mention the name Daut to you? Is that the truth, Mr. Stijovic?
7 A. That they mentioned Daut's name to me?
8 Q. Yes. Is that the truth? Because a few moments ago, you told us
9 you couldn't remember any others.
10 A. I heard the name Daut, but - how can I explain to you? When they
11 beat us, those were the two names that stuck in my mind. That's what I
12 put in my statement.
13 Q. And certainly the one who stuck in your mind as the most
14 influential and who you described as being in charge in your statement
15 was Nasim?
16 A. To my mind, yes, in my opinion.
17 Q. Now, you told us that as you were walking along the road or being
18 walked along the road to -- towards Gllogjan, you were told to put your
19 hands in the air, to keep your heads down, and not to look left or right.
20 Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And is that an instruction that was given to all three of you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And as far as you could see, were all three of you walking along
25 with your arms in the air?
1 A. Well, from time to time, yes, we were trying to assist Dragoslav
2 a little bit.
3 Q. And I think you said that you and Mijat were in a great deal of
4 pain and bleeding as you were walking along. Is that right?
5 A. Yes. I was bleeding and so was Dragoslav.
6 Q. What about Mijat?
7 A. Mijat, I don't remember about him but I and Dragoslav, we were
8 all covered in blood. I know that later on when we had to wash ourselves
9 at the pump, only the two of us were there.
10 Q. And as far as you could tell, did the other two obey the
11 instruction to keep their heads down and not to look left or right as you
12 were walking along?
13 A. I don't know. I'm not sure.
14 Q. Now, I just want to go back to some of the incidents that you
15 described as having caused you to leave Dashinoc -- Dasinovac in the
16 first place?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You listed for us a number of incidents and I just want to make
19 sure I've understood them correctly because I'm not sure the transcript
20 correctly recorded what you were saying. You told us that you had read
21 about an attack on somebody's house in the paper, that you knew the
22 people concerned, and that you went to speak to them. Can you tell us
23 the name, the family name, of the people that that incident concerned?
24 A. Well, that was Malesa Culafic's house in Donji Ratis, and we were
25 actually family friends.
1 Q. Thank you. Malesa Culafic, C-u-l-a-f-i-c?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were you aware of a property dispute between your friends, the
4 Culafics, and somebody else who lived nearby, a dispute about the
5 ownership of some land?
6 A. I don't know about that, but I don't believe that because these
7 were elderly people. They'd lived there in Ratis since the day they were
9 Q. I see. You mentioned an attack on Irzniq police station. I
10 think you told us that you read about that but didn't see the evidence
11 for your -- for yourself. Is that correct?
12 A. No, no, yes, I read about it in the papers and I saw it on TV.
13 They covered this incident.
14 Q. Then the third thing you listed for us was what you described as
15 the murder of a police officer called Otovic. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that was something that had happened on the 24th of March,
18 right outside your cousins' house, wasn't it?
19 A. As far as they told me, it was right next to their house.
20 Q. And then the last thing you mentioned was that people would pass
21 by at night firing shots. Did you ever see that or hear it yourself?
22 A. Yes, gun-fire and that kind of thing, yes.
23 Q. Well, that's a different question. Let me pull it apart into
24 stages. You heard the sounds of gun-fire from your home in Dashinoc?
25 A. Yes, gun-fire, automatic rifles. As they walked down the road
1 they discharged their weapons in order to scare the people. That's what
2 I think.
3 Q. Well, just be clear what you yourself heard or saw. When, on how
4 many occasions, did you hear gun-fire?
5 A. How many times? Well, it would happen often, especially at
6 night, I mean after nightfall.
7 Q. And where exactly did you hear the gun-fire?
8 A. Well, in my village next to the houses, there was the main road
9 that passed by our houses and as they -- as the cars drove by people
10 would discharge their weapons in order to intimidate people.
11 Q. I see. And how -- when exactly did those incidents occur?
12 A. Just before we left the village, our house in the village.
13 Q. Now, you've told us you left your house in the village at the end
14 of March; correct?
15 A. I didn't say in late March. I said sometime in March or April.
16 I didn't know the exact date, so it's late March or April.
17 Q. Yes, I think just to be absolutely clear, what you said was
18 sometime in late March or early April. That was after, I think, the --
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. I haven't finished the question. That was after the killing of
21 Otovic, wasn't it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So the gun-fire that you started to hear all took place after the
24 incident in Gllogjan on the 24th of March. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, the gun-fire that was heard before that.
1 Q. Now, I'm sorry. To be absolutely clear about your answer --
2 A. What -- I just didn't understand your question. Could you please
3 repeat it?
4 Q. Yes, I'm looking --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, let me just try to find out.
6 Did you hear this fire at night in your village also before
7 Otovic --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Dasinovac.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in Dasinovac, did you hear that also before
10 Otovic was killed or only after Otovic was killed?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before and after the killing of
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
14 MR. EMMERSON:
15 Q. You told us in your evidence in chief a little while ago when
16 asked by Mr. Kearney to describe the hatred, as you put it, that you
17 could pick up from the people in Gllogjan on the 18th of April, you said:
18 "There could be no reason for it, apart from the fact that we were Serbs.
19 There could not be any other reason. I have never clashed with them and
20 neither had Mijat, as far as I know."
21 Is that a fair summary of your evidence?
22 A. You mean for myself? I didn't mention Mijat or Dragoslav. They
23 hit us because we were Serbs.
24 Q. Well, you did, in fact, mention Mijat, but never mind that for
25 the moment. Is it your evidence that you had no idea why the people of
1 Gllogjan village might be attacking Mijat and Dragoslav Stojanovic?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Had they told you about what happened on the 24th of March in
5 A. In Glodjane on the 24th of March?
6 Q. Had your cousins told you what happened in Gllogjan on the 24th
7 of March?
8 A. I don't understand your question.
9 Q. Had you discussed with Dragoslav and Mijat what had happened on
10 the day that Otovic was killed?
11 A. When Otovic was killed? Well, they just told me that they had
12 left their house that night for safety reasons.
13 Q. Did they not tell you that their house had been used as a
14 position from which to fire by the police on the Haradinaj compound? Did
15 they not tell you that?
16 A. No. This is the first time that I hear of something like that.
17 We didn't discuss this at all.
18 Q. I see. But you must generally have known what had happened in
19 Gllogjan and Irzniq on the 24th of March from general knowledge, didn't
21 A. When Otovic was killed was -- is this what you mean?
22 Q. On that day you must have known, Mr. Stijovic, what happened,
23 broadly speaking, in Gllogjan and Irzniq. There was a major all-day
24 fire-fight, and you knew that, didn't you?
25 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I need to interject if I may for a
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I didn't know --
3 MR. KEARNEY: This witness is being asked to speculate about
4 events he has no first-hand knowledge of. He's already told us that, in
5 his own mind, the reason he were attacked was because they were Serbs.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but nevertheless the line of questioning by
7 Mr. Emmerson is admissible. Unfortunately, Mr. Emmerson, when the
8 witness asked: "When Otovic was killed, was -- is that what you mean?"
9 If you would have said "Yes," you might have perhaps received another
11 MR. EMMERSON: It's -- it's rather a selective description of
12 what took place on the 24th of March.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 But, Witness, Mr. Stijovic, when you said: "When Otovic was
15 killed, is this what you mean?" Do you know anything about the context
16 in which Mr. Otovic was killed, what happened when he was killed? Do
17 you -- did you hear anything about that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I read in the media that
19 Otovic had been killed, and Dragoslav and Mijat told me later that they
20 had left their home that night, on that date, because of safety reasons.
21 So this is all I know about this incident involving Otovic and so on.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Did the media not say anything about circumstances
23 under which the death of Mr. Otovic occurred?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And if I would say -- would the media -- may the
1 media have said that it was during an exchange of fire, something of the
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said in the media that regular
4 police patrol had come under attack.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So you do remember some of the circumstances that
6 were mentioned in the media, because earlier you said: I didn't know
7 anything about it I don't know -- to quote you literally, Mr. Stijovic,
8 you said: "Well, I read in the media that Otovic had been killed, and
9 Dragoslav and Mijat told me later that they had left their home that
11 And then I asked you: "Did the media not say anything about
12 circumstances under which the death of Mr. Otovic occurred." And then
13 you said: "I can't remember."
14 And as an answer to my next question, you did remember that the
15 media reported that Mr. Otovic was killed, as you said, during a -- that
16 "when a regular police patrol had come under attack." So you learned
17 something from the media about the circumstances. Would you please --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the media, in the media, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you be very precise, if asked questions,
21 to fully explore your memory and see whether -- whether from the media or
22 from any other source, whether you have any knowledge, whether you gained
23 any knowledge, hearsay or direct knowledge, on the events.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
1 Q. I'm particularly interested in the fact that you've given
2 evidence to this Tribunal that you knew of no reason why the villagers in
3 Gllogjan might have wanted to hurt Mijat Stojanovic. You've given
4 evidence before the Tribunal you knew of no reason, and the only reason
5 that you could think of was the fact that you were Serbs, and that's what
6 I'm trying to explore with you.
7 Now, Mr. --
8 MR. KEARNEY: Mr. Emmerson -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, I have to
9 cut-in again. Mr. Emmerson keeps referring to a village -- the villagers
10 attacking the Stojanovics. We have clear testimony for the record that
11 it was the KLA soldiers.
12 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
13 MR. KEARNEY: Perhaps that's causing some of the confusion that
14 the witness is suffering.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's -- Mr. Emmerson, be as precise as
16 possible. Try to avoid summaries which might be criticised. Let's focus
17 on the exact testimony of the witness, as I tried to do before.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. EMMERSON:
20 Q. You've told us, Mr. Stijovic, that the people from Gllogjan who
21 attacked you, both at the house and along the street, included people in
22 civilian clothing, haven't you?
23 A. Both in uniforms and in civilian clothes.
24 Q. Exactly. There was civilian -- people in civilian clothes who
25 attacked you; right?
1 A. Armed, armed civilians. Men, young men.
2 Q. I fully understand that. People came out of their homes to
3 attack you three, didn't they, along the way?
4 A. I don't understand. They had surrounded the house probably
5 before they did that.
6 Q. As you were --
7 A. Before we arrived.
8 Q. As you were being taken into Gllogjan and to the house where you
9 were beaten, people were coming out of their homes and attacking you,
10 weren't they?
11 A. They were next to the road.
12 Q. And just so that we're clear, you had no idea what it was that
13 those people might have against the Stojanovics?
14 A. I didn't know that they had anything to do against them, that
15 they had any reason to do so.
16 Q. Let me ask you this: Did you know that three teenagers had been
17 killed in the attack on the 24th of March by the police?
18 A. I didn't know about that.
19 Q. Were in Dashinoc on or about the 24th of March yourself?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You must have known, mustn't you, that the entire population of
22 Gllogjan and Irzniq were displaced for several days immediately after
23 this attack, that many of them came in the direction of your village,
24 didn't they?
25 A. I don't know about that.
1 Q. This was no minor incident, Mr. Stijovic, and it occurred in the
2 next village along from you. Are you really telling us you didn't know
4 A. No. I didn't know about those teenagers getting killed, as you
5 just put to me.
6 Q. And did you --
7 A. Well, it's not really a neighbouring village.
8 Q. And did you not know about all of -- let me finish my question,
9 please. Did you not know about all of the population of Gllogjan and
10 Irzniq being displaced?
11 A. Well, this is the first time that I hear about something like
13 Q. Did you not know that the Stojanovic family property had been
14 used effectively as a military facility to launch the attack on the 24th
15 of March by the police? Did you not know that?
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. You see, when you tell us the only possible reason could be that
18 you were Serbs, had Dragoslav not told you that a few weeks earlier he'd
19 been stopped by the KLA, treated appropriately, been questioned, and
20 signed a piece of paper, and allowed home? Had he not told you that he
21 had been treated perfectly appropriately when stopped by the KLA one
22 night before the 24th of March?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. And Predrag or Dragan, as you call him, did you not know that he
25 was, in fact, involved in the police operation on the 24th of March,
1 Mr. Stijovic?
2 A. No, because I was not in close contact with him. I mostly
3 socialised with Dragoslav and I would -- half a year would pass by and
4 then I would see Predrag again.
5 Q. And just to be absolutely clear, you've told us what you read in
6 the newspaper about Otovic being murdered, as you call it. Your cousins
7 asked you to come back to their house three weeks after the 24th of March
8 without telling you of the scale of the conflict that had taken place
9 there and in that village, did they?
10 A. No.
11 Q. I think you mean yes, do you? They didn't tell you; is that what
12 you're saying? They never mentioned anything of that kind to you?
13 A. Well, they just mentioned that they had left their house that
14 night when Otovic was killed.
15 Q. I see. Did they tell you whether anyone had told them to leave
16 their house?
17 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
18 Q. You told us that this incident happened on a Saturday, perhaps we
19 can help us date that. The 18th of April was a Friday in 1998 and the
20 19th of April was a Saturday. Are you sure it was a Saturday?
21 A. One day before Easter, so it was a Saturday. I think it was a
23 Q. Oh, I'm so sorry, it's my mistake. I've misread the calendar,
24 you're quite right, the 18th of April is a Saturday. Do the teenagers in
25 the villages -- do the teenagers in the villages go to school on
2 A. On a Saturday? I don't know. I don't have this information at
3 my disposal.
4 Q. You don't remember from when you were at school yourself? I
5 mean, was it the practice to have school on Saturdays?
6 A. Well, sometimes you had school on Saturdays, sometimes you
7 didn't; but in most cases you didn't go to school on Saturday.
8 Q. You see, Mijat Stojanovic has given evidence to us today that a
9 lot of the people he saw, including some people in uniform with weapons,
10 were teenagers, some as young as 11 or 12. Does that accord with your
12 A. Well, people of all ages were there. I think -- well, I can't be
13 really sure, but I think they were aged 14 and upwards. Quite a lot of
14 young people there, and they guarded us in the corridor with their
15 rifles. They were armed.
16 Q. And none of them ever mentioned to you that it was their school
17 friends who had been shot or their friends from the area who had been
18 shot on the 24th of March by the police?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. You see, Mr. Stijovic, I'm essentially putting to you that what
21 happened on the 18th of April isn't something that occurred because you
22 three were Serbs; it's something which occurred because the village as a
23 whole had been the subject of a terrible onslaught by the military police
24 on the 24th of March and believed that the Stojanovic family were
25 directly involved in that.
1 A. Well, had the Stojanovic family been involved, then why would
2 they inflict this kind of beating and torture on me when I had absolutely
3 nothing to do with Glodjane and nothing to do with the Stojanovic family,
4 and yet I shared their fate.
5 Q. Did your cousins tell you or did you read in the newspaper
6 whether the police officer who was killed had been in a marked police
7 vehicle or a civilian vehicle when he was killed?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. Police officers did drive around in civilian vehicles, didn't
11 A. I don't know. I don't know about that.
12 Q. I see.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stijovic, what Mr. Emmerson is trying to find
14 out whether it ever came into your mind that the events, on the day where
15 Mr. Otovic was killed, may have been the reason for what happened later
16 in April. Did that ever cross your mind? Did you ever think about that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't really give it any
18 thought. I didn't really think that this might have been the reason.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, now you say you don't really think that this
20 might have been the reason, at the same time you say: "I didn't really
21 give it any thought." But if you conclude that this would not have been
22 the reason, then you must have given it some thought, isn't it?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't believe that this was
24 the reason, what the Defence has just put to me, that we were beaten up
25 because of the involvement in the attacks. Because why then would they
1 beat me up the same as them when I was not even from the same village?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's your explanation.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson, I think. Yes.
4 MR. EMMERSON: I'm very nearly finished.
5 Q. Mijat Stojanovic has given evidence that accusations of spying
6 were made during the interrogations, spying for the Serb police. Do you
7 remember those accusations being made?
8 A. Those accusations were not made to me personally.
9 Q. I see.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Did you hear them being made to the others; that is,
11 Dragoslav and Mijat?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I can't remember. I
13 was certainly never accused of anything like that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
15 MR. EMMERSON:
16 Q. Finally this: You mentioned Deli Lekaj, the man who passed by
17 you with a weapon in his hand and warned you that a roadblock was
18 being -- likely to be established in Pozar. Can I just be clear, he was
19 trying to help you, wasn't he?
20 A. That's what I understood him to mean, yes.
21 Q. He wasn't threatening you. He was trying to say: Look, if you
22 want to avoid trouble for yourself, there's likely to be people setting
23 up a roadblock.
24 A. I don't know exactly what his intention was, whether he said this
25 for friendship, an account of our close friendship, or for whatever
1 reason. At any rate, he said, If you ever get out of here alive, don't
2 ever come back here. It's just a question of time how soon we get to
3 Pozar and try not to let the same thing happen again, you coming here.
4 Q. Yes. And I think when you were interviewed about this by
5 Mr. Di Fazio just a few days ago, you said that you took those words as
6 advice rather than as a threat. Is that right?
7 A. As I said, I can't be expected to interpret his intentions, what
8 exactly he meant. I did take it seriously, though, and I never tried to
9 go back again to my own village.
10 Q. Did you later hear that Deli Lekaj had been shot?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Those are my questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Mr. Guy-Smith, no questions I see.
16 Mr. Harvey, no questions.
17 Any need for further questions to the witness?
18 MR. KEARNEY: Just two, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
20 Re-examination by Mr. Kearney:
21 Q. You were told by Mr. Lekaj, who you thought to be a member of the
22 KLA, that you should not go back to your own home village because you
23 could be hurt. Isn't that how you understood his statement?
24 A. I didn't believe him to be a member of the Kosovo Liberation
25 Army, but as soon as I saw him carrying a hand-held launcher, I knew that
1 he was one.
2 Q. When you were told by a member of the KLA that you should not go
3 back to your own village because of why? Why did you think he was
4 telling you not to go back to your own village?
5 A. There are countless possible interpretations, but what I believed
6 at the time is that his intentions were good, friendly. He saw the
7 condition that I was in, and we had socialised in the past. He realised
8 how poorly we had fared previously. I think he was well-intentioned.
9 Maybe he wasn't, but I believed him to be.
10 Q. I'm not quarrelling with that, sir. I'm just asking you: Did
11 you believe -- what did you believe would happen if you had tried after
12 that warning to go back to your village of Dasinovac?
13 A. I would have been arrested like Radosevic was later on. He
14 probably knew that such things would happen. It was only a matter of
15 time. Serbs who went that way later, to Dasinovac and that area, were
17 Q. You were asked at great length about the possible motivation of
18 the people who attacked the Stojanovic home, and I want to ask you, sir,
19 is part of your earlier answer that you believed the attack was based on
20 you being Serbs. Is part of that belief based on what they told you;
21 namely: "Kosovo belonged to the Albanians"?
22 A. Yes. What business have you? Yes, yes. And then it all
23 tied-in. They were shouting that sort of thing: Kosovo belongs to us,
24 it belongs to Albanians, and they cursed our Serb mothers, that sort of
1 Q. And your belief that the attack on the -- on you and your cousins
2 was based on your ethnicity, was that -- also -- was that belief also
3 based in part on the other attacks you had seen on Serbs, both in your
4 villages -- your village and the surrounding village?
5 A. Yes, yes, that's what I think.
6 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not aware of the witness having said that he'd
7 seen any attacks on Serbs at any point.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm aware that he didn't say that, but of
9 course you asked him -- not seen, but -- Mr. Kearney, perhaps you clarify
10 whether he had seen or whether he is referring to the events he described
11 before in which you sought to verify whether you were thinking about the
12 same, Mr. Emmerson.
13 MR. KEARNEY: I would be happy to, Your Honour. Thank you for
14 the clarification.
15 Q. Your belief -- was your belief that the attack on you and your
16 cousins was based in part or based because -- on the fact that you were
17 Serbs on your viewing of the Malesa Culafic house and the reports in the
18 media of attacks you had heard on Serbs and Serb homes?
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- perhaps we come at a point.
20 I'll ask you quite simply. When you said it was because you were
21 Serbs, you could not think about anything else, did you have in mind at
22 that moment events you learned about and the type of events you spoke
23 about earlier?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it all ties in somehow, but
25 my principal impression was that all of this happened because we were
1 Serbs. Maybe what had happened when Otovic was killed was part of it for
2 them, in their minds. But I personally had nothing whatsoever to do with
3 the police or anything else in that particular area. I was from a
4 different village altogether, yet I met the same sort of fate as the
5 others did.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although I joined the parties in my last
7 question in calling for speculation, I certainly would discourage to
8 continue with that.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
10 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, we have no further questions. Thank
12 JUDGE ORIE: Any ...
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hoepfel has a question for you.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, please.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I have the following clarifying question. You
18 said you later left the country or you left Kosova. In which month of
19 which year did you leave the region?
20 A. May or June 1999. I'm not certain, May or June.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: 1999. Okay. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stijovic, since I've got no further questions
23 for you, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd like to thank
24 you very much for coming to The Hague. You've answered the questions by
25 the parties and by the Bench. I wish you a safe trip home again.
1 Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Stijovic out of the
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, for calling me,
4 Your Honours.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to use the remaining couple
7 of minutes first of all to deliver an oral decision, that is the Trial
8 Chamber's decision on advance notification of witnesses.
9 On the 19th of March, 2007, the Defence of Ramush Haradinaj
10 addressed the Trial Chamber with a detailed proposal for advance
11 notification of witnesses on a weekly basis. On the 23rd of March, the
12 Prosecution responded to the proposal and rejected certain aspects of it
13 as impractical.
14 The Trial Chamber has considered the two proposals and adopts the
15 Prosecution's counter-proposal as the way to proceed for the continuation
16 of the Prosecution's case, at least in the short term. The Chamber
17 expects the Prosecution to improve the organisation of its case
18 presentation and strive to provide increasingly better notice to both the
19 Defence and the Trial Chamber. Thus, the proposal we are adopting, at
20 least for the short term, involves providing proofing notes to the
21 Defence no later than 27 hours in advance, and proofing notes and witness
22 statements to the Trial Chamber no later than 24 hours in advance of the
24 Furthermore, it includes providing the Defence and the
25 Trial Chamber each Thursday with a list of witnesses for the week to
1 come. This list should include the estimation of time for
2 examination-in-chief, if this differs from what has been mentioned in the
3 65 ter summary. The Prosecution should also - as it has been done so
4 far - provide to Defence and the Trial Chamber with a list of exhibits to
5 be used for each witness.
6 Finally, the Prosecution has agreed to provide the Defence seven
7 days' notice on when to call certain witnesses. These witnesses are
8 specified in an annex to the Haradinaj Defence's proposal and in a mail,
9 an e-mail, to the Prosecution from the Defence of Lahi Brahimaj on the
10 20th of March, 2007.
11 This concludes the decision on advance notification of witnesses.
12 We will adjourn unless there's any procedural issue to be
13 urgently raised. We'll then adjourn -- yes.
14 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, there's one matter I ought to raise.
15 Your Honour will very shortly be receiving within the next hour and a
16 half the finalised submissions on proofing. Partly for reasons of time
17 and partly for other reasons that essentially involve the way in which
18 work has been managed, I regret to say there will be two documents rather
19 than one.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
21 We'll see that and -- so we expect to receive them today, both
22 the documents.
23 Then we adjourn until Monday, the 2nd of April, quarter past 2.00
24 in Courtroom II.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of
2 April, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.