1 Thursday, 19 April 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Good afternoon. As Judge Orie has pointed out the
6 other day, when procedural matters were being discussed, he himself is
7 absent today due to Tribunal business; and Judge Stole and I will continue
8 on basis of Rule 15 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. Presiding
9 Judge Orie himself will be back tomorrow and will be familiarised with
10 today's transcript immediately after the hearing. The main content of
11 today's hearing will be the testimony of retired Colonel John Crosland,
12 but before we will call this witness, let me discuss with you some
13 important procedural matters.
14 First, the 92 ter document requested to be admitted by Prosecution
15 motion of 12th of April, 2007, together with annex A and confidential
16 annexes B and C, seems not to be object of any objection by the Defence.
17 Am I right? So I see nodding, and so it is admitted.
18 Please, Madam Registrar, would you assign a number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P69.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.
21 As to the related documents, this is the folder from Limaj case
22 P92 and the second folder with exhibits of non-DipTels and DipTels. We
23 will certainly not be in a position to decide about admission, as we did
24 not have the chance to read it.
25 Any short comments from the Defence? Otherwise, if there would be
1 longer comments or objections, you would be invited to do it in writing.
2 Thank you.
3 And the third point is the statement of 19th of April, dated the
4 20th of April but I suppose it's the 19th of April, which we received
5 today. I see it not necessary to discuss it right now, as the issues
6 contained will be elaborated in a more detailed way during the testimony,
7 I would suppose, also in a more sourced and explained way viva voce. So I
8 wonder if we can start with the witness.
9 Just as a reminder, just as a reminder, Madam Registrar, as to the
10 protective measures for the witness, Judge Orie already pointed out
11 yesterday the measures which apply from other cases are still in place,
12 and -- but we will start in open court, I understand. And so please,
13 Madam Usher, would you escort the witness into the courtroom. Thank you.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, please.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Am I correct in my understanding that with regard
17 to the protective measures that apply to Colonel Crosland that that's only
18 face distortion. Is that correct?
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: That's face distortion and that is also the date
20 and place of his birth.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, okay. Very well.
22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
23 Am I right, Mr. Re?
24 MR. RE: Yes, you're completely correct.
25 While the witness is coming in.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
2 MR. RE: I would remind the Chamber in relation to the exhibits
3 from the Limaj case those DipTels from British government, they were all
4 provided to us --
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay.
6 MR. RE: -- subject to Rule 70 and were all and remain under seal
7 in that case.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay.
9 MR. RE: But the contents of them would be basically --
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
11 MR. RE: -- the contents of the record.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Good afternoon, Mr. Crosland.
14 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please, before we start, would you be so kind and
16 take the declaration in the text -- the declaration, the text of which is
17 presented to you by Madam Usher.
18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
19 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Please take a seat.
21 And, Mr. Re, it's your floor.
22 WITNESS: JOHN CROSLAND
23 Examination by Mr. Re:
24 Q. Good afternoon, retired Colonel John Crosland. Can you please
25 give the Court your full name.
1 A. John Harry Crosland.
2 Q. And you're a retired British military officer. Is that correct?
3 A. That's correct, yes, sir, yes.
4 Q. And you had some 37 years of experience in the British military.
5 Is that correct?
6 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
7 Q. And before we go on, I'll just inform you that the transcript of
8 your testimony in the Limaj case is in evidence, and that contains a lot
9 of the material which is relevant to the current case. In that, at the
10 very beginning, there is some reference to who you are, but I'd just like
11 you to put on the public record some details about who you are and where
12 you came from if you could just briefly go back to when you joined the
13 British army and just tell the Trial Chamber a very brief synopsis of your
15 A. I see. I was commissioned from Sandhurst in 1967 into the
16 parachute regiment. I remained with the parachute regiment for four years
17 before transferring into the special forces and I remained throughout with
18 the special forces and the parachute regiment until I retired in late
19 2001. In 1996, I was appointed as the Defence Attache to the former
20 Republic of Yugoslavia, where I was accredited to the Vojska Jugoslavije,
21 the VJ, and in particular to General Perisic, who was then the Chief of
22 the General Staff. I served in Belgrade until 1999 when NATO bombed and I
23 then returned with the Rapid Reaction Corps as a liaison officer to
24 General Jackson when NATO forces went back into the province of Kosovo and
25 I remained there until about mid-June of 1999.
1 I subsequently returned to Belgrade in 2000 to help re-set up the
2 British embassy.
3 Q. Colonel, can you please tell the Chamber briefly about your
4 military action combat, tours of duty.
5 A. I have been fortunate, or otherwise, to have had a lot of combat
6 experience, both in counter-insurgency and counter-revolutionary warfare
7 as well as several other wars throughout the Middle East, the Balkans and
8 elsewhere as classified areas.
9 Q. In your career in the army how many soldiers did you have under
10 your command at various times?
11 A. I commanded at regimental level and above to brigade level which
12 is approximately 4 to 5.000 men and the equivalent equipment as
14 Q. What languages do you speak?
15 A. Apart from English, I speak, Serbian, French, German, I have some
16 Arabic and Russian as well.
17 Q. Just briefly tell the Trial Chamber what your experience is with
18 weaponry, the extent of your -- if you could summarise the extent of your
19 knowledge about weaponry employed in western armies and armies in Europe.
20 A. As an infantry -- primarily infantry and special forces officer,
21 I'm familiar with most small-arms and I've trained in the heavier arms in
22 the machine-guns and in the rocket and rocket-propelled grenade area. I
23 am not completely qualified to -- to give, you know, very intense
24 evidence, because that needs a qualified armourer in our army, so I'm not
25 an armourer. I'm a general purpose officer who's had a lot of experience
1 within weapons systems.
2 Q. What is your experience in relation to the types of arms and
3 weapons employed by groups opposed to armies such as the British army in
4 things such as counter-insurgency or insurgency operations?
5 A. Normally a counter-insurgency force will, in its fledgling state,
6 attempt to, what I would use, shoot-and-scoot tactics. Very rarely will
7 they want to take on a professional fighting force for the obvious reasons
8 that they usually do not have the heavy weapons and the variety of weapons
9 and the range of weapons to take on these forces. So they will use
10 possibly sniper rifles or ordinary rifles to inflict casualties and then
11 to fade away into the undergrowth and attack when the time is right for
13 Q. I'm taking you to your -- the job you had in the former
14 Yugoslavia -- sorry, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as the Defence
15 Attache. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what -- what your duties were.
16 A. As I mentioned earlier, sir, I was accredited to the Vojska
17 Jugoslavije on behalf of our Chief of the General Staff directly to
18 then-General Perisic and we would work through the Foreign Liaison
19 Service, which was the official channels through which we would conduct
20 our business, whatever that happened to be. When the situation began to
21 develop in Kosovo, I then had several conversations with senior people, as
22 I think you're well aware from my statement.
23 Q. What does a Defence Attache do or what did you do as a Defence
24 Attache in Yugoslavia between 1996 and 1999? What was the job description
25 and what did it involve is what I'm getting at?
1 A. As the Defence Attache you are accredited to the armed forces of
2 that country, the military, and you're there to help and advise your
3 ambassador, if the need arise, and to accompany him on various political
4 missions if there is a military input required.
5 Q. The ambassador at that time, the relevant time, Sir Brian
7 A. Yes, that's correct, and before him, Sir Ivor Roberts.
8 Q. What restrictions were placed upon your movement as a UK Defence
9 Attache in that period?
10 A. All attaches, as I said, went through the Foreign Liaison Service,
11 FLS, and any journey that you required to do outside of I think it was 120
12 miles from Belgrade had to be rooted through the Foreign Liaison Service
13 for permission to be granted and for your own safety to be ensured. So
14 the Vojska Jugoslavije would know of all my trips into the province of
15 Kosovo and elsewhere.
16 Q. During the period you were the Defence Attache until you left, I
17 think it was the 23rd of March, 1999, approximately how many trips did you
18 make to Kosovo in your capacity as the Defence Attache?
19 A. I think I'm correct in saying, sir, I made about 70 to 75, of
20 which those reports are with the courtroom.
21 Q. How did you get from Belgrade to Kosovo on those trips?
22 A. We drove, sir.
23 Q. Who's "we"?
24 A. I would usually go with a further colleague, sometimes the
25 American, Canadian, Dutch, French, or German attaches or on my own with my
1 own assistant, UK assistant.
2 Q. Did you ever have an armed escort when you went to Kosovo?
3 A. No, sir. We travelled in civilian clothes. All we had was
4 our "licna karta," which is the identity card. We were never armed, and
5 we were in -- or laterally, I was in a very visible bright red armoured
6 defender with Union Jacks on it.
7 Q. When did you become aware of the existence of the KLA or the UCK,
8 the Kosovo Liberation Army?
9 A. I carried out my first trip to Kosovo, sir, in about August 1996,
10 and there was -- there were rumours that there was some kind of fledgling
11 military wing from Albania. I think one would say that didn't really
12 blossom into anything until late 1997/early 1998.
13 Q. What were the sources of your information about the existence of
14 the organisation?
15 A. In the early days, this was based on intelligence reports that we
16 received from our own Ministry of Defence and other allied attaches'
17 intelligence, and also, I think, just talking in general to people down in
18 the province of Kosovo where the Albanian problem was starting to appear.
19 Q. Did you also receive intelligence information, military
20 intelligence information, from the VJ?
21 A. Yes, we did, sir. When in -- particularly in early 1998, when the
22 Vojska Jugoslavije was getting concerned over the emergence of the Kosovo
23 Liberation Army, we were then briefed on a couple of occasions, at least,
24 of incidents that had occurred on the -- primarily on the Albanian border,
25 but also there were indications that there was smuggling on the Macedonian
1 border as well. But as you're well aware, both these borders have been
2 used for smuggling from ancient times.
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sorry to interrupt. I didn't want to overlap, but
4 that would be interesting what do you mean by "the Albanian problem" that
5 was starting to appear, you said. Was it what you then described? Or is
6 it to complicate it to answer with one sentence?
7 THE WITNESS: I will try, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The notion is a little bit foggy.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. By "the Albanian problem," I suppose we mean
10 the emergence of a very young, fledgling Kosovo Liberation Army. It
11 wasn't actually -- I didn't think it was called that at the time, but
12 there were indications through intelligence sources that people were --
13 were coming together to put the basis for this organisation together, sir,
14 if that helps. Sorry.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Just to understand you better.
16 Please, Mr. Re, go on.
17 MR. RE:
18 Q. A few moments ago you said that you were aware of the existence --
19 or you had heard rumours of the existence of the organisation but it
20 didn't blossom -- really blossom into anything until 1997/1998. What was
21 this blossoming-into process? What were you aware of by the end of
23 A. I think, as I mentioned in my report, sir, that we had meetings
24 with Colonel-General Dimitrijevic, who was head of counter-intelligence,
25 in late 1997, and General Perisic, who were disturbed by reports coming
1 from both the Albanian and the Macedonian border that men and materiels
2 were being moved. And then in early 1998, the first attacks took place
3 against the MUP stations in Kosovo itself, and if I remember correctly,
4 they were based -- they were against the MUP station at Rudnik and
5 Likosane. And that's when the first -- as far as I'm aware, the first
6 Serbian security force casualties were taken. I may be wrong on that, but
7 I think that is the first time.
8 Q. How does that accord with what you described earlier as I think
9 shoot-and-scoot-type activities?
10 A. Well, the first -- following on from the attacks on the MUP
11 station at Rudnik where I think three policemen were killed, the Serbian
12 authorities decided to take action at Donji Prekaz and carried out a very
13 blunt and aggressive attack against the Jashari family in March 1998. And
14 this was the start of -- I would say this was the start of the
15 contest-proper between the Kosovo Liberation Army and the Serbian security
17 Q. Do you know what the reason for the attack on the MUP station was?
18 A. I think the KLA then, as I said, was a very young organisation and
19 saw, as in many countries in the world, the police stations are in the
20 middle of towns or villages and are, therefore, very -- potentially very
21 soft targets. The policemen are just doing their job in maintaining law
22 and order, and the one at -- the police station particularly at Rudnik is
23 in a valley and is overlooked all the way around and therefore a very easy
24 target to attack.
25 Q. I want you to elaborate a bit more on what you described a moment
1 ago as "the start of the contest-proper between the Kosovo Liberation Army
2 and the Serbian security forces." What do you mean by that?
3 A. Well, I think the attack on the Jashari compound at Donji Prekaz,
4 which I then took a whole crowd of ambassadors and other people to look at
5 the damage done, and the compound was virtually razed to the ground. Very
6 heavy fighting had taken place. Very heavy use of force had taken place
7 against the Jashari family, which, as I understand it, it was adjudged by
8 the Serbian authorities to be a family that was heavily engaged in various
9 nefarious activities or business activities, shall we put it like that,
10 including armed aggression. I think this was to attempt to teach the
11 Kosovo Liberation Army a lesson.
12 Q. I just want you to focus a little bit on "contest-proper", and if
13 you could just elaborate on what you mean by "contest-proper." "Contest"
14 has a connotation of there being sides to some sort of altercation. What
15 do you mean by that?
16 A. Well, the Serbs turned up for this particular match with very
17 extremely heavy use of force and numbers of men. The Jashari family
18 decided to stand and fight and suffered very heavily, and I think the KLA
19 learnt their lesson that -- in particularly in the countryside in the
20 Drenica, where this event took place, was not the area to take the Serbian
21 security forces on because it's very open and favours the side that has
22 the heavier and out-ranging fire-power that the Serbs had.
23 Q. What were the relative strengths on both sides in this particular
24 contest, that's at the Jashari family compound?
25 A. I think in my report we saw 55 -- or 54 bodies were returned to
1 the Donji Prekaz area, Kosovo Albanian bodies. The exact strength I don't
2 know of the rest of the Kosovo connection. The Serbian security forces
3 were probably numbering in the hundreds, probably 1500 to 2.000 men, and
4 armoured vehicles, et cetera.
5 Q. What sort of -- what sort of resistance did the -- did those on
6 the otherwise put up to the Serbs?
7 A. From what I understand, sir, they fought where they were, and then
8 attempted to escape and were shot. The details I can't give you because,
9 obviously, no one was there when this particular happened. We came in a
10 couple of days after -- after this particular incident had taken place and
11 when the bodies were returned from Pristina morgue, as I understand it.
12 Q. What was your information at that time about the number of Serb
13 military personnel in Kosovo?
14 A. The Vojska Jugoslavije order of battle, as we call it, for
15 province of Kosovo was under 52 corps, based in Pristina, which had
16 approximately between 10 and 15.000 men stationed in the province of
17 Kosovo itself. This was obviously supplemented by the Ministry of the
18 Interior Police, the MUP, and that rose up and down depending on the
19 situation but probably got as high, again, to 10 to 15.000 people.
20 Q. What weaponry did the VJ have at its disposal in that area?
21 A. The Vojska Jugoslavije had the full range from main battle tank
22 down to armoured personnel carrier, down to triple anti-aircraft weapons
23 that could be used in the ground role and all the normal infantry and
24 heavy -- both light and heavy weapons. So they had the full spectrum of
25 weapons systems.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, Mr. Emmerson, please.
2 MR. EMMERSON: Just as a matter of clarification, the question
3 asks: "What weaponry did the VJ have at its disposal in that area?"
4 Which might be understood to mean in the Drenica area where the attack on
5 the Jashari compound occurred or in the province of Kosovo as a whole.
6 Now, it might be helpful just to have matters like that clarified as the
7 questions are asked.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
9 Mr. Crosland --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: While we're on the same subject matter I
11 understand that some 54 bodies were recovered. It might be of some
12 assistance to determine how many of those bodies were able-bodied fighting
13 men as opposed to women or children or older or younger people.
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: That is an additional question, but just to make
15 clear what you mean by the area. You first were speaking of the province
16 of Kosovo. Mr. Crosland, was that what you were referring to?
17 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour. The army unit, the
18 Vojska Jugoslavije unit, within Kosovo was 52 corps, which had the whole
19 spectrum of weaponry. In the Drenica region itself, as I recall and like
20 is in my report, sir, this is primarily a MUP operation, initially. Now,
21 as I say, I was not there for the operation, so I cannot say whether the
22 Vojska Jugoslavije was involved in this or not, but within this operation
23 the police had armoured personnel carriers and the air defence weapons
24 systems that are extremely useful for house fight -- house fighting and so
25 on in a very heavy manner.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
2 And, Mr. Re, do you want to elaborate on what Mr. Guy-Smith was
3 asking about?
4 MR. RE: I will clarify Mr. Guy-Smith's query.
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, please.
6 MR. RE: I just want to clarify something in relation to that last
7 answer before I get there.
8 Q. And, Colonel Crosland, did the VJ have a similar capacity,
9 capacity, in the Drenica area?
10 A. At that time, if my memory serves me right, I think the primacy
11 was still with the MUP and therefore the VJ was on the outside. And as
12 far as I recall and remember, they were not engaged in this particular
13 operation, as far as I recall.
14 Q. In relation to the 54 bodies and the clarification sought there,
15 did you see the bodies yourself?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. What did you see?
18 A. If I remember rightly - and again, I think it's in one of my
19 reports - most of these bodies had been shot at close range, which could
20 indicate they were -- had been murdered because it's unusual for everyone
21 to be -- have a head shot or a face shot. There was a range of - and this
22 again is purely from memory, Your Honour - there was a range of personnel
23 from fairly elderly people down to and including, if I remember correctly,
24 young children. But there was certainly people of fighting age within
25 this group of bodies.
1 Q. How long after their deaths did you see them?
2 A. I think, sir, if I --
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sorry. Please, Mr. Re, we have all to slow down a
4 little bit not to make the work of the translators too difficult.
5 THE WITNESS: I can't remember the question now, to be honest.
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. How long after the deaths did you see the bodies?
9 A. As far as I can remember, sir, the bodies were returned, as we
10 were told, from Pristina morgue and dumped on the outskirts of Srbica, if
11 I remember rightly, and I think that was maybe a couple or three days
12 after the incident had taken place. We came -- I came down with the
13 United States Defence Attache and we were the only two people who were
14 allowed into the operational area to see what had happened.
15 Q. Were any -- or do you remember whether any of the bodies were
16 dressed in uniforms?
17 A. Not as far as I can recall, sir.
18 Q. When did you first become aware that the KLA had a fighting
20 A. Again, recalling from my report, sir, I think in the early part of
21 1998 after the Jashari incident in the Drenica valley activities took a
22 bit of a dip, and then the KLA started to become more prominent towards
23 the end of March, into May -- April and May. And by about -- I think I'm
24 right in recalling by the middle of May they were, as I've said in the
25 report, technically controlling about 50, 60 per cent of Kosovo in the way
1 that they -- they blocked three of the four main routes across Kosovo with
2 fairly limited forces, but it showed that they did have the ability to
3 deploy various groups into strategic areas to impinge on Serbian security
4 forces actions.
5 Q. I want you to elaborate a bit more on what you mean by technically
6 controlling. And I assume you're talking in a military sense here. If
7 you're not, please correct me.
8 A. No, you're right, sir. As I said, there are four major routes
9 across the province of Kosovo from Pristina in the east and Mitrovica and
10 Urosevac to the key areas which are in the west from Prizren, Djakovica,
11 and up towards Pec. And three of these routes were blocked, the most
12 northern route at Rakos just west of Rudnik, the central main route from
13 Pristina in the area of Likosane going towards Pec. The southern -- one
14 of the southern routes was blocked just beyond Stimlje towards Crnoljevo
15 leaving the Urosevac -- or what I would call the mountain route into
16 Prizren as the only route through which the Serbs could carry out a
18 The routes were blocked by fairly -- sorry.
19 The routes were blocked by lightly armed forces who'd -- would
20 ambush the roads, pull a vehicle across the road, and dig fairly shallow
21 trenches as a token defensive position around the area. So it was a
22 control tactic, in effect, that was a rebuff, really, to the far superior
23 Serbian potential fire-power and formations that they had available to
25 Q. How did they manage to achieve the 50 to 60 per cent control -- or
1 technical control of Kosovo in this way?
2 A. I think because it took the Serbian security forces that length of
3 time to adjust to the fact that there was a fledgling organisation that
4 was creating problems in the province of Kosovo. I think they were
5 primarily concentrating their initial energies on the Albanian -- on the
6 western border with Albania and also looking after the Macedonian border
7 which, as I've said before, were the two major routes through which men
8 and materiels were passed to Kosovo.
9 Q. And did you --
10 MR. RE: I'm sorry.
11 Q. And did you experience or encounter these KLA blocks resulting in
12 the technical control of 50 to 60 per cent of Kosovo in your own trips to
13 Kosovo during that period?
14 A. Yes, I did, sir. We travelled throughout the area despite the
15 attempted blockage by the KLA, who at certain stages would not recognise
16 our "licna karta," and usually after some negotiation, possibly over a
17 glass of whisky, we would get where we wanted to get to and they would
18 remain where they wanted to remain. So it was a fairly fluid, in both
19 terms, situation.
20 Q. Can you just clarify what a licna karta is for the record?
21 A. Sorry. "Licna karta" is the Serbian for identity card, which is
22 the identity card we were issued with by the Foreign Liaison Service to
23 identify us as personnel who had the right to travel throughout the --
24 Yugoslavia, and therefore could -- should not be stopped by anyone unless
25 it was a Vojska Jugoslavije or MUP for security reasons.
1 MR. EMMERSON: Again, I hope this isn't an unhelpful
2 interjection. A few questions ago Mr. Re asked what the witness meant by
3 the word "technically" in the phrase "technically in control." And I
4 wonder whether that question might be pursued so that we will understand
5 what "technically" means in that sense.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
7 Could you --
8 MR. RE: If it's of assistance to the Trial Chamber, I can pursue
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please.
11 MR. RE:
12 Q. Colonel Crosland, can you elaborate on what you mean
13 by "technical control."
14 A. When -- yes, Your Honour, gentlemen. When you have a road blocked
15 by 20 or 30 fighters with pretty light weapons and ammunition and very
16 little with which to defend themselves, I would suggest that if they were
17 approached by a column of tanks or armoured vehicles, the most sensible
18 thing would be to disappear. What for some reason I can't answer that -
19 the only people who can answer the question is the Vojska Jugoslavije - is
20 why they allowed relatively light forces - and therefore I use the
21 word "technically" - to close a road, which the Serbian security forces
22 had massive power with which to open these roads as soon as they
23 were "technically" closed. So what you have is a very light force
24 blocking the road, causing a problem which really shouldn't be a problem.
25 I hope that clarifies that.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: If you're satisfied, please go on.
2 MR. RE:
3 Q. What about the situation on the road between Pec and Djakovica
4 March, April, May, June, July 1998?
5 A. In the western area, so the international boundary, as everybody's
6 perfectly aware, is in the mountains between Albania and Serbia, then
7 Kosovo, the province of Kosovo. It's an extremely difficult, not to say,
8 demanding area. It goes up several -- I think 3.000 metres, 9, 10.000 in
9 feet. It's extremely cold in winter, minus 20, minus 30, and it's plus 30
10 in the summer. So it's a testing geographical boundary to try and guard
11 and prevent men and materiels being pushed through on routes that were
12 known about for ages.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please, Mr. Crosland, could you focus on the
14 situation between March and July of 1998.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
16 MR. RE:
17 Q. And on the Pec to Djakovica road.
18 A. Yeah. With great respect, I think it is relevant because the
19 Serbs were unable to hold the mountain, and therefore moved a second
20 boundary back along to the road between Prizren-Djakovica-Decani, and this
21 became what I would call -- refer to the front line or the thin red line
22 where the Serbs attempted to prevent the ever-growing flow of men and
23 materiels in late 1998 through this area. And so this road became an
24 important road, along which there were many battles fought.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Once more, please, you were not talking of late
1 1998 and can you describe that or refer to March, April, May, June, if you
2 can remember.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I think the Vojska Jugoslavije
4 and the MUP realised the importance of this area and the -- the
5 Pec-Decani-Djakovica-Prizren road as a corridor which they had to attempt
6 to hold, and that was pertinent in early 1998 and throughout 1998 into
7 1999. It therefore, as I say, became a second frontier, if you like.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
9 Please, Mr. Re.
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. Did you yourself travel on that road in the period March to July
13 A. Most of the time, sir, yes.
14 Q. Did you encounter KLA presence in your travels along that road?
15 A. Yes, we did, sir, yes.
16 Q. Approximately how many times do you think you travelled along that
17 road in either direction in that period?
18 A. I can't recall exactly, sir, but my reports would indicate the
19 route, as we always state in the report. We would stay in either Pec,
20 Djakovica, or in Prizren overnight in order to be able to travel
21 throughout the area of Kosovo as and when trouble flared up. So we were
22 there -- or I was there, rather, for the majority of the period.
23 Q. In terms of numbers, are we talking 10, 20, 30, 40, 100, 5, what?
24 A. Are you referring to the strength of the KLA, sir?
25 Q. No. The times you went backwards and forwards on that road. I
1 appreciate it's been a long time but approximately?
2 A. I would say it's well over a hundred times, to be honest.
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: We had the number of 70 to 75 trips from Belgrade
4 to the province of Kosovo.
5 THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: In the overall period, and so maybe -- to what
7 period are you now referring?
8 MR. RE: March to July 1998.
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: These four or five months, would that be then --
10 the relevant portion of that 70 trips?
11 THE WITNESS: As in also, if I may explain it, into other areas.
12 So part of the process to get to know the situation on the ground, we
13 travelled around and around and around areas all day long from first light
14 until last night and even after at times. So in some days we may go up
15 and down that road three or four times. So it was an extensive use. The
16 reason for that, sir, was to attempt to monitor the situation and report
17 it as fairly as possible on both sides.
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you, sir.
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. Describe the KLA presence you encountered on that road between
21 March and July 1998.
22 A. The major areas on that road were in the area of Prilep and Rznic,
23 which is right in the middle, and that was a very disputed area ...
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please.
1 THE WITNESS: As I say, that was a very disputed area, so that was
2 the major area where we would see KLA activity. There was also some
3 activity just south of the major town in the north, Pec, and along the
4 disputed villages in Decani, Gornji Streoc, and also on the outskirts of
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. What was the KLA activity you saw?
8 A. In the early part of 1998, it was mainly restricted to
9 shoot-and-scoot-type tactics, sniper attacks on this road, because that
10 was the main supply route for the Serbian security forces, and therefore
11 with the vehicle check-points, security points, that is, the Serbian
12 security forces put in, these would offer static targets against which the
13 KLA could plan, as I say, sniper attacks.
14 JUDGE STOLE: Would it be possible to have a map, a sort of new
15 map on e-court so that we -- because there are quite a lot of names
16 mentioned. It might be useful.
17 MR. RE: I'll do that.
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 JUDGE STOLE: Yeah, we can use the hard ...
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: That's fine.
21 And I take it, sir, you have a map in front of yourself?
22 THE WITNESS: I do, sir, yes.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: For reconstruction of your memory. And is this,
24 may I ask, Mr. Re, a document of the Prosecution or is it a private map?
25 THE WITNESS: I've got -- sorry, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please Mr. Emmerson.
2 MR. EMMERSON: I was simply going to say it might be helpful if we
3 were all following the evidence on the same map. I see Colonel Crosland
4 has his own map and some have maps in hard copy. I believe unless I'm --
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
6 MR. EMMERSON: -- mistaken, that the larger map we have been
7 focusing on is in the e-court system and can be brought up on the screen
8 and that way indeed, if necessary, Colonel Crosland can mark it on the
9 screen for us if he wants to point a particular place out.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, I fully agree.
11 Would that be a way, Mr. Re? Could we load it up on the screen?
12 MR. RE: P10 is the map of immediate importance.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So that the witness can sign it and mark it.
15 MR. RE:
16 Q. Colonel, if you could have a look at the map which will come up on
17 the screen in a moment and I will ask you to mark on - it may seem fairly
18 obvious - the road between Pec and Djakovica, which is of main concern to
19 me at the moment.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 MR. RE: That's the extract of it. The one I want is this one
22 without the red circles on it.
23 MR. EMMERSON: I've certainly no objection to the circled map
24 being used, if that would assist. It's obviously not necessarily the same
25 places that Colonel Crosland would be referring to; and if all else fails,
1 we could take a hard copy and put it on the ELMO.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.
3 That would certainly be useful, but it's up to you, Mr. Re.
4 MR. RE: I just can't recall the number of the map. I think it's
5 coming. 1006.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Could it be that it is Exhibit P32?
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. There's a map in front of you; it has circles on it. It's --
9 A. Okay.
10 MR. RE: Can you assist me with the exhibit number for the record.
11 THE REGISTRAR: It's Exhibit Number D32.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. With the assistance of the court officer, Colonel, could you just
14 mark with the -- on the -- with the magic pen the road.
15 A. The road we are -- Your Honour, what we're talking about is from
16 Pec up here, all the way down to Decani. And there were various villages
17 around Decani, Gornji Streoc and places that were fought over throughout
18 March -- May 1998. Then come on down below Decani to the area of Prilep
19 and Rznic, which are just in this area here.
20 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated]
21 THE WITNESS: Correct. Thank you.
22 And then on down to the west you've got the town of Junik which
23 saw a lot of action in 1998 throughout, which is just here close to the
24 border. The road goes on then down very straight on down towards
25 Djakovica, which is off the map as it stands at the moment. So that is
1 the road, Your Honour, that I was talking about as the sort of secondary
2 boundary and resupply route that was being used by the Serbian security
3 forces and which was fought over by both sides throughout 1998.
4 JUDGE STOLE: Thank you.
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. While the map's still there, I want you to describe to the Court
7 what the KLA presence was, I mean, in terms of numbers of soldiers or
8 civilians or whatever you saw and where you saw them.
9 A. In the -- the early stages of 1998, I think there were several
10 groupings of KLA throughout the area of Kosovo, in particular in this
11 area, in the Dukadjin area, as I understand it or understood it, when we
12 got further intelligence from various outside agencies, we started to put
13 together areas of operational responsibility, as the military call it. We
14 try and group things or people into areas and make people or -- or people
15 then become or appear to become responsible for those particular areas.
16 And this was the Dukadjin area which stretched from -- in the north Pec,
17 in the north, through Decani down to Djakovica, and then around in a big
18 loop. I can put it on the map if you so wish.
19 Q. You could. Do you have -- is there another coloured pen you could
20 use for that. Maybe you could use a --
21 MR. RE: What choices do we have? Blue? Right. Let's use black.
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
23 We're coming from Djakovica, which is down here, then we go up
24 through an area called Rakovina, and on up to main junction of the road
25 where Klina is, and this is of the road to Pristina. And then it goes
1 westwards into Pec.
2 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if I might, just again, clarity on these
3 matters is extremely important. The answer at page 25, line 8, begins by
4 referring to the early stages of 1998, and then moves on to a point which
5 further intelligence was obtained.
6 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.
7 MR. EMMERSON: And that being the point at which an attempt was
8 made to reconstruct areas of operational responsibility. It may be
9 important to know when it was that that further intelligence was obtained,
10 giving rise to that understanding.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
12 Please, could you ask in this direction.
13 MR. RE:
14 Q. Can you clarify the question Mr. Emmerson has just put to the
15 Trial Chamber?
16 A. Your Honour, gentlemen, as far as I can recall, I think there was
17 a -- a UK assessment of the potential KLA threat, I think - and I'm trying
18 to recall now from nearly whatever it is 12 years ago. I think it was in
19 April or even May of 1998. It may be referred to in my previous documents
20 but I'm not quite certain, but I think that was about roughly when we
21 tried to put some kind of organisation of battle on to a -- what was then
22 a fledgling organisation, the KLA.
23 Q. You were drawing a black territorial line around what you said was
24 the Dukadjin area. Have you finished drawing it?
25 A. No, I haven't, because it came -- excuse me. It came back down
1 the Pec line, down to Djakovica --
2 Q. At the moment you're drawing the black over the blue, you're using
3 the same axis, that is the road from Pec to Djakovica.
4 A. Yes, with respect, it's not as tidy as that because the area of
5 operations, obviously, included the western border in the mountains to
6 Albania, and that was, in itself, part of the Dukadjin -- what came to be
7 called the Dukadjin area. So it would come down -- there is a big pass,
8 the Rugova pass up here which goes up into Montenegro and to Crna Gora
9 which again had an influence in this area. This mountainous area, here,
10 was also involved in activities and also likewise in this area here,
11 again, along the Albanian-Kosovo border. So --
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So may we -- maybe we should note that the witness
13 marked first in the left upper corner with an R, the Rugova pass, then
14 went down and entered this arrow at the side and then at the left-down
15 corner, all with black pen.
16 THE WITNESS: And this would have -- this -- this, with respect,
17 Your Honour, this area of operations would go on down south from Djakovica
18 all the way down to Prizren, which had the exit down towards Kukes in
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: So it -- it is a large area which I've attempted to
22 define, but it -- with respect to the Court, it's not like a backyard in
23 America, it's not fenced-in.
24 MR. RE:
25 Q. Just going back to what I was asking you a little while ago, and
1 that is what you saw, I want you to tell the Court what you saw between
2 March and July 1998 in terms of KLA presence along that particular road.
3 What were your own observations with your own eyes?
4 A. We -- if I think -- if my memory is correct, we had a meeting with
5 a gentleman called Ramush Haradinaj, at his headquarters in Glodjane area
6 near Rznic. We would see evidence of KLA fighting, particularly in the
7 Rznic-Prilep area, as I've indicated before, and then sporadic fighting
8 all the way down that road from south of Pec, around Decani,
9 Rznic-Prilep-Junik, down. Further down from Junik, there is a place
10 called Ponosevac here, which was a Vojska Jugoslavije-MUP position, and
11 again there would be indications of both KLA activity and MUP activity in
12 this area. Because of the sensitivity of the border area through which
13 men and materiels were being -- were starting to be moved.
14 Q. I'll stop you there.
15 A. Sorry.
16 Q. You've marked something on the map. Can you please put a P next
17 to the crescent that you've drawn so we know it's Ponosevac.
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I was just asking -- about to ask you, Mr. Re, if
19 we then should save this marked map in this way or if you would like to
20 continue with markings. But we should not take it off the screen before
21 saving it.
22 MR. RE: Yes. I might ask the witness to mark something on the
23 road line which he's just referred to in his evidence, so I'd like to keep
24 it up at the moment.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Very well.
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. Colonel, if you just draw a P next to that --
3 A. This map is a bit --
4 Q. I know it's not easy.
5 A. -- unclear from where I'm seeing it but I think that's the area of
6 Ponosevac there.
7 Q. You described having to --
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please, Mr. Emmerson --
9 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not quite sure and it is difficult to see the
10 map in this particular magnification, but I think I'm right in saying that
11 Ponosevac is further south than that --
12 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
13 MR. EMMERSON: -- And it may be if the witness is focusing in on
14 Ponosevac we would need to save this and then -- because we have to save
15 it before magnifying --
16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Absolutely.
17 MR. EMMERSON: -- and then allow him to magnify it to clarify his
18 evidence, because I think he-- I may be wrong, but I think it he may have
19 put the P some considerable distance further north than Ponosevac.
20 THE WITNESS: I think you are correct, Mr. Emmerson. Yeah. Thank
22 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please, Madam Registrar, can we mark that -- can
24 we save that and keep it. That would be number ...?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P70,
1 marked for identification.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.
3 And then next step would be to move and enlarge the map to what we
4 are addressing now.
5 Mr. Re.
6 MR. RE: It might be easier to give the witness a hard copy of the
7 map; we've certainly got a few in court. I can provide him with my --
8 I've got a copy of the court copy here.
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay, so --
10 MR. RE: It's just much easier to read on a piece of paper.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: That means we finished now with the marking
13 MR. RE: Maybe. I'm --
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Well, you are definitely free to open another map
15 then later.
16 MR. RE:
17 Q. Colonel, did you encounter in your trips along that road in that
18 period, March to July 1998, KLA presence on the road? If so, I want you
19 to describe to the Trial Chamber what you saw -- soldiers, civilians, or
20 whatever -- roadblocks, whatever you saw.
21 A. We would see fairly small groups of KLA in the area of Rznic
22 Prilep and also on the outskirts of Djakovica that would occasionally try
23 and prevent our access into the areas. But usually they were there. They
24 were not -- obviously they were very lightly armed and they knew they were
25 in the presence of superior Serb security forces, which were being held
1 quite local -- or locally, rather.
2 Q. How did you know that they were KLA?
3 A. Because the majority of them would be wearing uniform with KLA
5 Q. What was the size of these small groups?
6 A. I would say initially maybe 10 to 15 men, sometimes a bit bigger
7 if we went off down towards Glodjane where there was -- appeared to be
8 some kind of headquarters. There may be 30 men there. I visited other
9 KLA headquarters in the Drenica and further east, and again there were the
10 similar types of people, quantities of people, apart from Malisevo, where
11 there was about 100 -- 100, 150 personnel, which I think is reported in
12 one of my reports.
13 Q. What were they lightly armed with?
14 A. At this -- in the -- in early 1998 we saw mainly light infantry
15 weapons, rifles, revolvers, some light machine-guns. So they were very
16 lightly armed. The odd rocket grenade, propelled grenade.
17 Q. What was your information about where they were obtaining their
18 weapons from and how they were getting these weapons?
19 A. I think the general feeling was that when Albania had imploded in
20 1997, that the majority of weaponry had come from Albanian sources and as,
21 I'm sure, you're aware, the Balkans is awash with weapons from many, many
23 Q. You used the word "feeling." What was your information or the
24 source of information about where the weapons were coming from?
25 A. I think, if I remember correctly, that was from Ministry of
1 Defence intelligence assessments and from the -- also from the Vojska
2 Jugoslavije, who, as I said, did brief us on at least two occasions as to
3 the growing severity of KLA incursions into then what was sovereign
4 Serbian territory.
5 Q. What was your information about how the weapons were getting into
7 A. Again, the -- there were -- there were well-known routes across
8 the Albanian-Kosovo border that had been used since the silk trade, so
9 these were the obvious routes through which arms, men and materiel, would
10 come. Some of these routes were blocked by both Vojska Jugoslavije on the
11 frontier, on the border itself; by outposts. But unless you patrol in a
12 fairly aggressive manner, then you can sit in a static position and all
13 you see is what you can see. And when it gets dark, you don't see a great
14 deal. So a lot of stuff can get by with a bit of ingenuity.
15 Q. Did any of these routes cross through the Dukadjin area, which you
16 have drawn on the exhibit a moment ago?
17 A. Yes. As I was saying, these are the historic smuggling routes,
18 and a lot of them went through the Dukadjin route in order to resupply the
19 Drenica area of operations just to the west of Pristina, and also going
20 further up to -- to the east of Kosovo, Mitrovica, to the KLA based up
22 Q. What was the significance of the Dukadjin area in terms of the
23 smuggling of weapons from Albania?
24 A. Over the Albanian border in areas of Kukes and Crmljane it was
25 well-known that there were training camps, and I think even the -- if I
1 remember rightly, the Vojska Jugoslavije informed me that they had
2 information of these major training centres in Albania which were feeding
3 and supplying the Kosovo Liberation Army.
4 Q. But what was the significance of the Dukadjin area, if it --
5 indeed it had any?
6 A. As, I think, again I have indicated in my reports, that it became
7 the prime area because it was the main resupply route from Kosovo
8 through -- sorry, from Albania through to Kosovo, and the control of that
9 route with the major cities of Pec, Decani, and Djakovica, and Prizren
10 were the four major towns in that area. And therefore, if the KLA wished
11 to influence the area in the future, then they needed to have some kind of
12 control in the area. I think what you must understand is that in all
13 these towns there was a very, very heavy Serbian military presence. So
14 saying that the KLA had control has got to be tempered with the fact that
15 they were initially probably the goldfish in the bowl, but very rapidly
16 the Serbs became the goldfish in the bowl with a local population, not
17 necessarily backing the KLA, but because the population -- majority of the
18 population is Albanian, then they had more influence in that area.
19 Q. Can you --
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Excuse me, sir. I'm not that familiar with the
21 colloquialism of a goldfish in a bowl. Could you clarify that a little.
22 THE WITNESS: Certainly, Your Honour. The point I'm trying to
23 make is that the majority of the population within Kosovo, as a whole, was
24 probably approaching a million or a million and a half Albanian or Kosovo
25 Albanian, to probably only about -- probably 250 to 450.000 Serbs. So
1 while the Serbs maintained - again, I use the word technical control - the
2 majority of the people in the area were actually Albanian, and therefore
3 could support the Kosovo Liberation Army if they so wished.
4 MR. RE:
5 Q. What did you mean by the KLA were initially the goldfish in the
6 bowl? Can you just elaborate briefly on that, please.
7 A. I think, as I stated quite a few times in my reports, that a lot
8 of the Albanians, whether Kosovo or just ordinary Albanians within Kosovo,
9 really did not want either interference from the Serbian security forces
10 or from 1998 onwards, the Kosovo Liberation Army.
11 Q. You described smuggling routes. What do you mean by "routes"?
12 A. Well, these are trails through the mountains that are being used
13 to carry cigarettes, contraband of all sorts, and then from the two major
14 bases of Bajram Curri and Kukes they would set off with -- as 1998 rolled
15 on, both men and materiels would be -- would be sent across the mountains
16 either on pack-horses or donkeys as a way of getting supplies into Kosovo.
17 Q. Are you able on either -- to draw either on the map which was on
18 the screen a moment ago, or on any of the maps which are in that binder to
19 your right, where the smuggling routes were and how they went into the
20 Dukadjin area?
21 A. I can't draw precisely, no. I mean, these were routes that -- I
22 mean, for instance, in the area of -- if we go to Junik -- which map are
23 we on now?
24 Q. There's a map to your right which is the same map, it's on the
25 ELMO, and it's a paper copy.
1 A. If you go into the town -- into the area of Junik, you will see
2 some very light black hachuring that goes down into Junik, both north and
3 south. These were two mountain trails that led out of Junik across the
4 border into Kosovo. There were many other trails. If you go down towards
5 Ponosevac, and then -- this map doesn't go quite far enough because the
6 border is not shown. Again there are trails that come across. So these
7 are the types of trails that the KLA used, obviously, to try and avoid the
8 known Vojska Jugoslavije and Serb positions on the border.
9 Further down by Djakovica and on down towards Mount Pastrik, that
10 mountain was crisscrossed with trails that were used to infiltrate men and
11 materiels with. So they used whatever trail was available and which they
12 did not think would be observed by the Serbian security forces.
13 Q. Just to your right, on the ELMO, there is a binder of maps, of
14 various maps of Kosovo, which cross the Albanian border. If you could
15 just perhaps flick through those and if you can find one which you could
16 indicate -- give a better indication where these routes are.
17 A. So the best map is -- which doesn't actually show the Albanian
18 side but goes to the border is west Kosovo -- sorry.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Just a moment, please. We might -- we should find
20 a way to make a break like quarter to 4.00. Would you then tell us.
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. Could you just -- what's the number on the map -- on the bottom of
23 that map, the green one? It should say court map --
24 A. Map 4.
25 Q. Okay. You're looking at court map 4. Are you able to draw
1 roughly, with a marker, where these routes were, just with arrows? It
2 doesn't need to be precisely --
3 A. I think, with respect, what one has got to understand is that
4 these routes are not like the auto route to Schiphol Airport. These are
5 just trails that some are very old. Others are just footpaths as well.
6 So it's -- what I can indicate to you is that if you come up towards Pec
7 and follow the road -- the track up into the mountains into the pass west
8 of Pec, you'll get over into Montenegro. That is quite a major dirt
9 road. Alongside it there are many trails which refugees have used and
10 which were used as well for passage both ways.
11 Q. Colonel, what I'd like you to do is to actually draw with a black
12 pen what you've just marked so we have a clear record of what you're
13 referring to. Blue is fine.
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Do you mean the witness should mark it in the map
15 book in this map number 4, which is not -- which is not to scale, which is
16 a problematic map, actually, isn't it?
17 MR. RE: It's not to scale but it is an approximation.
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: It would be quite sufficient I think to have it in
19 a verbal description, but on the other hand, Mr. Crosland, maybe you can
20 give us an idea of where your knowledge from these historic routes comes
22 THE WITNESS: Well, the route I've just indicated to Your Honour
23 from Pec across through the Rugova pass is a route which the -- in fact,
24 the Serbian army withdrew over in the first world war. So it is a major
25 route, but alongside this major route there would be several footpaths in
1 the hills which were known to both sides of locals which they would use to
2 pass backwards and forwards between in this case Montenegro and Serbia.
3 If we move down towards the small town of Morina here which was a
4 post, a Vojska Jugoslavije border post, the town of Batusa and Kosare, you
5 will see Junik up here. As I've indicated there are trails out of Junik.
6 There are trails going west out of Kosare, and also there is a trail that
7 goes across the Morina pass, which was a Vojska Jugoslavije position.
8 If I remember when I was up there, either side of this position at
9 Morina, we saw other trails that were -- have obviously been frequently
10 used by people and animals carrying men and materiels backwards and
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.
13 THE WITNESS: If you go on down to Djakovica, again there was a
14 major crossing point, if I remember correctly, I think in this area below
15 Zulfaj, which again has a Vojska Jugoslavije position on it. Again,
16 either side of that there were trails that indicated movement. And then
17 down towards Prizren on the mount on Pastrik mountain, which is in this
18 area here, a large mountain, there were several trails across the border
19 itself. So I hope that gives you some idea of the complex nature of
20 trying to prevent infiltration both ways in this area, this frontier area.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you, sir.
22 Should we keep this in a form as a document?
23 MR. RE: Yes, I want to keep it as a form. I just want the
24 witness --
25 Q. Mr. Crosland, you just marked -- you put sort of a line between
1 the arrow and Pastrik. Can you just make that larger, like put an arrow
2 on it, so that it's quite clear when you've gone? Zulfaj was the name of
3 the town you were referring to?
4 A. This is Zulfaj is up here. We then go further --
5 Q. Yeah. All I want you to do is so that we can see when you've
6 gone --
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. -- where you've actually marked if you could go back to Zulfaj and
9 put the arrow over the border as well if that's in fact --
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. -- what you were referring to?
12 A. So this -- these arrows should all go both ways.
13 Q. Right. Just noting that these were approximate smuggling areas?
14 A. Absolutely, yeah.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. RE: Might that be received into evidence.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So would that be an appropriate moment?
18 So can we first give a number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours this will be Exhibit Number P71,
20 marked for identification.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, can I indicate that I'm not --
22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: There's an objection.
23 MR. EMMERSON: There isn't an objection as such at all. It's
24 simply that at some point, either when Mr. Re resumes if he thinks it
25 right, or at some later stage it would be appropriate, we would submit,
1 for Colonel Crosland to be invited to indicate smuggling routes in other
2 areas of Kosovo, for example, across the Macedonian border and in from the
3 north in Montenegro to get a sense of -- I think Mr. Re's point that he's
4 seeking to elicit from this is relative importance. And so I don't know
5 whether that is the map that's appropriate. With an electronic map, once
6 saved, it cannot be retrieved, whereas with that map, of course, or other
7 maps it can be marked subsequently.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, I agree, the Bench agrees.
9 Can you think about that in a break.
10 MR. RE: I'll certainly think about it, yes.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So court adjourns until quarter past 4.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 4.27 p.m.
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Re, I was thinking we should talk about time.
15 Are you aware of a limited time budget you will have to finish with your
16 examination-in-chief, at least today if not before the end of the third
17 session. That will depend on your intention to introduce certain
18 documents you will consider essential.
19 MR. RE: Yes, if I could perhaps be given an indication of how
20 long I've taken. Can the registry give me that indication.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: To my estimate it will be 1 hour and 15 minutes.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Until so far you had 80 minutes. What is your
25 MR. RE: Well, if I could put it this way, the -- I have, I think,
1 maybe 70 documents or so, in addition to those in Limaj, which were read
2 on -- but basically the main parts were read on to the transcript in
3 Limaj. There's about another 70 documents that I wish to introduce or
4 have the witness comment on in some form. Now, the math with that are if
5 I show them to the witness even in the hard copy, it takes him three
6 minutes per document, it will take many hours more to do it.
7 Now, clearly within the time budgeted or allowed, I can't do it in
8 that form. So my proposal was to take him to the parts of the evidence I
9 have to lead orally in relation to the Lake Radonjic canal visit and so
10 on, and to have him look at his exhibits and to comment selectively on
11 some of them and to get as many in as I possibly can that way. That just
12 means I can't get him to illuminate or put into perspective a lot of the
13 DipTels and yes, I -- of course to do it I'd need more than the three
14 hours allotted.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay. So you get started maybe again and go as
16 far to the point as possible, please.
17 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Crosland, the next thing -- if we could just return briefly to
19 what we were -- what you were giving your testimony about before, and that
20 was the road between Pec and Djakovica. You referred to some roadblocks
21 on that road. Now, in the time you travelled on it in March to July 1998,
22 did you ever encounter KLA roadblocks on that particular road?
23 A. The reason I'm not answering directly is that I don't think they
24 were ever an official roadblock. There might be some KLA stood by the
25 side of the road or at a turning that would stop the traffic, but it would
1 be literally men, a few men, carrying out an impromptu vehicle check, as
2 it were, and then they would disappear again. Because as I've indicated
3 to the Court, that up and down this road there were very considerable
4 Serbian security forces deployed all the way along it. So it was a
5 question of the KLA choosing a random point to make an impression.
6 Q. What about control of the road in that period? Are you able to
7 say whether one side or the other controlled the road?
8 A. I think probably the basis of control, for want of a better word,
9 would be -- would rest with the Serb forces. In very localised situations
10 around Rznic and Prilep in particular then the KLA might have slightly
11 more control for limited periods in this early sage of March 1998.
12 Q. What about after March 1998, as in April, May, and June 1998?
13 A. Well, again, as I said, the situation was very fluid throughout
14 the whole of 1998 until the later stages when we saw considerable more KLA
16 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber what you mean by "fluid."
17 A. Well, one of the -- in my humble opinion, one of the major
18 problems that the Serbian security forces fell into was that they would
19 rush about and take some ground of tactical importance, take that
20 particular piece of ground, and then decided they would withdraw back to a
21 more secure area. Most of the time when that happened, the KLA would
22 then, as I call it, back-fill back into their original positions. So you
23 would have this very fluid situation where the front line, per se, would
24 go backwards and forwards depending on who wanted to put more effort into
25 it on that particular day and for whatever particular reason they wanted
1 to do that.
2 Q. What was your knowledge or the information you had about the state
3 of KLA organisation in that Dukadjin area in March, April, May 1998?
4 A. I think, sir, as I indicated earlier that we had an initial
5 assessment from the UK intelligence services that was trying to place
6 throughout Kosovo the order of battle or the numbers of men and equipments
7 or weaponry that they had to try and put some indication of the size of
8 the KLA force that was deployed throughout Kosovo, not just in the
9 Dukadjin area.
10 Q. If you could be a little bit more precise there. What was your
11 information, just in that period, March, April, May 1998, of the state of
13 A. I think I have said, sir, in reports that I looked on it as a
14 fledgling organisation, a young organisation, with some groups more
15 prominent than others. I would suggest that the Dukadjin group was
16 quite -- was an important area because of what I've previously said about
17 the men and materiel. The Drenica and then west -- sorry, east of Kosovo,
18 Mitrovica, you have the KLA up in Bajgora. I visited throughout my time
19 there a number of KLA headquarter elements, both in the Drenica, a place
20 called Lausa, which is to the west of Srbica, a place called Vocnjak, the
21 area around Klina, Lapusnik, Crni Ljug, Kraljevo, Malisevo, Bajgora to the
22 east of Kosovska Mitrovica, and also the area of Rznic-Glodjane in the
23 Dukadjin, and those are some of the areas I visited during my tours in the
24 area of Kosovo and from where I made my guesstimation of the likely
25 strengths of the KLA and at that time, as I have said on many occasions, I
1 believed it to be approximately between 4 and 500 hard-core fighters.
2 That -- the ranks obviously swelled during the latter part of 1998, and I
3 think I'm correct in saying that there is a commemorative stone in
4 Pristina to the 660 fighters that were killed, but bearing in mind I left
5 in March 1998 when a lot of heavy fighting went on after the NATO bombing.
7 Q. You just said "1998," do you mean 1999?
8 A. I beg your pardon, 1999, yes.
9 Q. When did you visit KLA headquarters in Rznic-Glodjane in the
10 Dukadjin area?
11 A. I think the initial time -- first time I visited there was
12 initiated by a political request which came from sources in Pristina, and
13 we went across to visit KLA personnel in that area.
14 Q. Do you remember when it was?
15 A. I would have to refer to a document. I'm sorry, sir. I think
16 it's in one of my reports.
17 Q. What do you remember about your visit?
18 A. We went down off the main road at -- in the area of Prilep-Rznic
19 and around into the area of Glodjane, I think, and into a very typical
20 Albanian house which had high walls and was very nicely laid out. And it
21 was just one house within a village which, as I say, was very typical of
22 the architecture throughout Kosovo, the province of Kosovo itself.
23 Q. Were there soldiers there?
24 A. Yes, there were, sir. There were about, I think, between 15 and
25 20 people in uniform, but as I am trying to advise the Court that not
1 necessarily everyone in uniform is a fighter or a soldier.
2 Q. Who was the commander of that particular unit?
3 A. As I believe it was Ramush Haradinaj.
4 Q. What do you base that on?
5 A. That was the gentleman's name that we were given to go and see.
6 Q. Can you describe your meeting with him?
7 A. The meeting was very cordial, very friendly. We sat around and
8 had some chai and we discussed various topics. As I stated, this was
9 mainly a visit engineered by political contacts, and I was there just to
10 provide some military back-up and to take people into the visit itself.
11 MR. EMMERSON: I'm very anxious not to take up any of Mr. Re's
12 time. And the witness just gave an answer where he said not necessarily
13 everyone in uniform is a fighter or a soldier, and I wondered if that
14 might be clarified.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, it was quite clear that, as I said,
17 there were, based on my experience of having to train and to fight, having
18 fought against counter-revolutionary forces, many people wish to be a part
19 of an insurgency movement, but when the time gets tough and rough a lot of
20 people realise that they are being asked to actually lay down their lives
21 for their particular project. And therefore, as I say, I think, as we all
22 put on a good show, a lot of people always turn out perhaps for a wedding
23 may not necessarily be friends of the family. So it's more in that
24 connotation I would put it.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. Are you able to say whether the soldiers you saw at Ramush
3 Haradinaj's headquarters fell into that category or were genuine soldiers?
4 A. I think the majority I saw there, from memory, were
5 well-disciplined, reasonably well-dressed, and I suspect the majority of
6 them were probably quite serious.
7 Q. Did you see any weapons when you went to Haradinaj's headquarters?
8 A. If I remember rightly, we saw, as I said before, the light
9 Kalashnikov rifles, machine-guns. There may have been the odd anti-tank
10 propelled grenade, RPG.
11 Q. How did you get into his area or to his headquarters?
12 A. We were given the area of where it was, and we just drove in. And
13 I think we may have even been guided in. I cannot remember. I knew the
14 area; I didn't know exactly that particular spot as it were.
15 Q. Was there any Serb military or MUP presence in the area when you
16 first went and saw Ramush Haradinaj at his headquarters?
17 A. Not, as far as I'm aware, no. I mean, they were on the road, as I
18 said, but that particular day they weren't there.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Re, could we maybe retrieve the document the
20 witness mentioned which contains the date of this visit. But while you
21 are thinking about that, I have a little question.
22 You were talking about high walls of this house, you mean walls
23 around the whole property?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. It's a normal Kosovo Albanian
25 project to have a high wall to safe-guard their families, and this was
1 generally a building concept throughout the area.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And still it was no problem to enter the property?
3 THE WITNESS: No. There is a normal gate, sir --
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: It's like a fortified villa, as it were, which is I
6 think throughout the Mediterranean countries is a normal practice.
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
8 Mr. Emmerson.
9 MR. EMMERSON: I'm rising to my feet because I think Mr. Re's
10 search on the other side of the room may be a search in vain, because I
11 certainly know that on our side, we've searched through all of Colonel
12 Crosland's documentation, such as it's been made available to us and we've
13 never been able to retrieve a document dealing with the date.
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Of course, this was no intention of mine to send
15 Mr. Re on a search in vain. But, thank you for that remark.
16 And, please, Mr. Re.
17 MR. RE: That does accord with our understanding, too. We don't
18 think we can locate such a document.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
20 MR. RE:
21 Q. How many times did you meet Mr. Haradinaj in the period --
22 A. If I recall correctly, sir, I think three times.
23 Q. Over what period?
24 A. Over the period from early 1998, throughout 1998, and I think we
25 may have met once again in Prizren when the Rapid Reaction Corps was in --
1 KFOR were in there dealing with the withdrawal of the Vojska Jugoslavije
2 Brigade there.
3 Q. Was that later, when you met him in Prizren?
4 A. Yes. That was in 1999.
5 Q. Do you remember meeting someone called Jakup Krasniqi?
6 A. I think that was when I met people at the headquarters in
7 Crnoljevo or it may have been at Malisevo.
8 Q. What about Daut Haradinaj?
9 A. The brother -- I believe we did meet. As I say, it's -- there's
10 an awful lot of water gone under the bridge since then, so I would not be
11 able to recognise Daut if he was in the court or not.
12 Q. What was your understanding about the extent of Haradinaj's
13 control or command when you met him?
14 A. I think I'm right in saying he indicated that he controlled what
15 was called the Dukadjin area, which is the area I'd explained and the
16 importance of that area. And this was, I think, alluded to or confirmed,
17 whichever word you want to, in the assessment that had been made by
18 outside intelligence agencies.
19 Q. Can you give an approximation of when it was that you met him and
20 understood that -- or he told you he controlled this area?
21 A. Well, I think, as I said, this was March/April 1998, the initial
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Crosland, please, could you wait a few seconds
24 after the question, as you speak the same language, it would otherwise
25 cause a problem for the interpreters --
1 THE WITNESS: I apologise, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Nothing.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. I want to turn now to the Lake Radonjic canal area and your visit
5 to that area in September 1998. And I want you to tell the Trial Chamber
6 how you came to visit the Lake Radonjic canal area.
7 A. So we had been, as I've indicated before to the Court, staying in
8 Djakovica at the Pastrik Hotel. And I think we were called, if I
9 recall -- remember rightly by KDOM, Kosovo Verification Mission, and the
10 MUP and asked to go with them to witness a massacre site, in their
12 Q. I'll just stop you there. Who is "we"? Who were you with?
13 A. With the American Defence Attache.
14 Q. Was that Bill Fisher?
15 A. That was Bill Fisher.
16 Q. And what did you do?
17 A. As I recall, we drove there in convoy with the MUP, a
18 lieutenant-colonel from Djakovica, and they headed the convoy and we
19 turned in with them at Prilep. And from Prilep in towards Rznic, there
20 was an intense operation still ongoing with elements of both the MUP;
21 their special -- their special police, the PJP; and also elements of the
22 Vojska Jugoslavije, with tanks and armoured vehicles.
23 Q. What do you mean by a special operation -- I'm sorry, an intense
25 A. Well, there was a lot of military or security force activity from
1 the junction of the main road turning in towards Prilep and beyond to
2 Rznic. Both villages had been severely damaged, intensively damaged, and
3 was still being looted as we drove past. Animal fodder was being burnt
4 and many animals household animals -- farm animals had also been
6 Q. Did you see any KLA presence on the road from Djakovica to Rznic?
7 A. Not as far as I can recall, no.
8 Q. Do you remember seeing any KLA presence in the area in which there
9 had been the intense operation?
10 A. Not at that specific time. This is about 4.00 in the afternoon,
11 if I recall, and the operation, as I put in my report, to me was still
13 Q. Was what you saw consistent with there having been a battle
14 between different sides or with something else?
15 A. Yes. There seemed to be a major -- what we'd call it, in military
16 terms, a clearance operation along this particular axis.
17 Q. Which axis?
18 A. The -- from the main road to Prilep and Rznic and then on --
19 Q. What do you mean by --
20 A. Sorry, and then on to the area of the canal bank, which is into
21 the area behind Glodjane.
22 Q. What do you mean by "military clearance operation"?
23 A. Well, there were -- there was, as I indicated, there were heavy
24 military forces and MUP forces literally physically moving from house to
25 house clearing this area.
1 Q. What was your information about who controlled that area before
2 the MUP and the VJ moved in literally, physically moving house to house?
3 A. I think, sir, what I've been trying to indicate to the Court is
4 that there were times when the Serbian security forces decided that they'd
5 had enough of the nuisance in this particular area and embarked on a very
6 severe operation. Now, whether that was based on intelligence of the KLA
7 from the Vojska Jugoslavije or the MUP, I obviously -- I do not know. But
8 on this particular occasion, they were still completing a -- what we would
9 call a clearance operation to try and make the area as safe as possible.
10 Q. Approximately how many soldiers or MUP personnel were in the area?
11 A. I would -- I don't think I've written it in a report. I would
12 guesstimate it was probably, I don't know, a couple of hundred, 300 mixed
13 VJ and MUP with armour support.
14 Q. What do you base that on?
15 A. From what I saw on either side of the road and in the villages
17 Q. Did you see any civilians in the Rznic area?
18 A. No. I wouldn't expect to. When the Serbs decided to do a
19 clearance operation, then the civilian population usually left the area,
20 obviously for their own safety.
21 Q. Where did you go from Rznic?
22 A. We followed a track towards -- east of the Glodjane area, which
23 came to the -- the concrete sort of open piping that was a water
24 collection system that went into Radonjicka Jezero, the Radonjic Lake,
25 which is on this particular map if that's of any help to anyone.
1 Q. Was it the canal leading to the lake?
2 A. It was like a big monsoon, concrete monsoon ditch, I would think
3 about a 6- or 7-foot deep with concrete, and it was a water collection
4 project that led down to the lake.
5 Q. And what did you see when you got there?
6 A. When we arrived in the area, there were several Serbian security
7 forces around. There were areas that had been taped off like the police
8 put for an accident area. And then -- we were then shown bullet splash
9 marks on the concrete drain area, and there were also, as I think I
10 mentioned in my report, between six and eight bodies, the majority in the
11 water, and I think one or two were on the bank if I remember correctly.
12 Q. Were the bodies civilian or military?
13 A. All I can say, sir, is that they appeared to be civilian, they
14 were in civilian clothes, but we did not or were not allowed to physically
15 search these bodies. So they were wearing normal civilian clothing, yes.
16 Q. What about the state of decomposition of these bodies?
17 A. Again, I think in my report, some bodies appeared to have been
18 there longer than others, bearing in mind the weather was warm and I'm not
19 a qualified coroner. So the bodies certainly looked swollen. How long
20 they'd been there, they could have been there, I think I said in my
21 report, a month and it could have been a few days. It was impossible to
22 tell the distance we were from the bodies themselves.
23 Q. Did the MUP say anything to you about what had happened?
24 A. I think they -- they indicated that this was a possible or a
25 massacre site, in their terminology. And my comment to the MUP commander
1 was that until all the autopsies are done and until the relevant data is
2 made clear, then I certainly can't report this as a massacre site because
3 we don't know who the bodies are and who's done what to whom.
4 Q. How long did you stay there for?
5 A. I think it was about 45 minutes, sir, and during that time I
6 picked up some ammunition that was of Chinese origin that could indicate -
7 and I repeat could - that it was a KLA action.
8 Q. Where did you find the ammunition in relation to where the bodies
10 A. The ammunition was on the southern or the western side of the --
11 of this concrete canal.
12 Q. What do you mean by "ammunition"? What did you find?
13 A. We spent -- we found several spent cases, fired cases.
14 Q. What did you do?
15 A. I picked them up and I then returned them to the United Kingdom
16 for forensic assessment.
17 Q. What was the assessment as to their origin?
18 A. I think their -- I think, I can't remember now, it was that it --
19 the ammunition had come from Albania, which was of no great surprise.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I interrupt.
21 First, also, you said you picked up some Chinese ammunition that
22 could indicate that it was a KLA action. On what basis would you conclude
23 from the Chinese if it was Chinese ammunition?
24 THE WITNESS: It was understood, sir, that the KLA had ammunition
25 of Chinese origin. That was just one of the intelligence assessments that
1 had been made.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: As I say, I stress the point, I am not an ammunition
4 specialist, and the autopsy on the ammunition I cannot actually recall
5 seeing but it may be in the documents.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please, Mr. Re.
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. Why do you say it was Chinese ammunition?
9 A. Because I think it had Chinese characters on it, which is not
11 Q. I want you to have a look at a video, and I'm going to play video
12 65 ter number 864 from the beginning. I'm playing it without the sound.
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. RE: I'll just pause the video at 1.52.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Is this being tendered into evidence?
16 MR. RE: Oh, yes.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can we have a number, please?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P72,
19 marked for identification.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, Mr. Emmerson.
21 MR. EMMERSON: I just want to be clear that Mr. Re is not going to
22 stop the film at this point, because the witness hasn't been shown any
23 part of the concrete section of the canal and the evidence he's given is
24 that he saw six to eight bodies in the water.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
1 MR. RE: I am stopping it to ask him about what he actually saw.
2 My question is did he see what's depicted there, and I know what the
3 answer is going to be.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, the entirety --
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Guy-Smith, yes.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: The entirety of what we've seen thus far does not
7 deal with the witness's testimony.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I'm also asking myself how you would link it to
9 the testimony.
10 MR. RE: I'll let it play for a bit longer then.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, please.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. EMMERSON: Whilst it's playing, if it's of any assistance to
14 Mr. Re and to Your Honours, two things: First of all, I've mentioned this
15 before. There is evidence that the date stamp on that is in error.
16 JUDGE STOLE: [Microphone not activated]
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. And secondly, the passage -- I think we're
18 just moving to it now, in fact.
19 [Videotape played]
20 Q. Colonel, you gave evidence -- it's still playing. You gave
21 evidence some moments ago that you saw you said between six and eight
22 bodies, the majority were in the water and I think one or two were on the
23 bank, if I remember correctly. That was your evidence.
24 What can you say about the video where we are at the moment, which
25 is at 5.32, in relation to your observations of what you saw on the day?
1 A. The first point that Mr. Emmerson raised is that the date is not
2 correct; and the second is the time is not correct. We were there I think
3 I'm right in saying at 4.00 to 5.00 in the afternoon so --
4 MR. EMMERSON: Just to be clear, the point I was making wasn't
5 that this wasn't the date of Colonel Crosland's visit. The point I was
6 making was that the date that's shown on this video has been established
7 not to be the correct date on which the video was taken.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: That is clear. We have to discuss that in the
9 case, but I think the gist of the question is now if this is what you
10 yourself also experienced during your visit.
11 THE WITNESS: Some of those bodies I remember, sir. As I say, the
12 date, the time, 2.38 a.m., is in the middle of the morning, very early
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sure.
15 THE WITNESS: So that may account for the difference in the number
16 of bodies there that they may have found after our initial visit to the
17 site, which, as I said, I think lasted for about 45 minutes, during which
18 time I recall seeing about six to eight bodies. We haven't yet seen the
19 splash marks on the concrete -- sorry. I beg your pardon, sir.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. You're leaping ahead for the moment. I'm just asking you about
23 the bodies and what you see there, how it accords with your recollection
24 and what you saw.
25 A. These bodies seem well decomposed. So whether they are extra
1 bodies that had been found afterwards, I don't know. But some of the
2 bodies were decomposed; some were not so decomposed as some of the
3 pictures on here, and I suspect the cameraman has gone for the nastier
4 looking bodies. I don't know.
5 Q. What about the bodies in the water, like there's two -- I've
6 paused it at 6.39 on the video.
7 A. I think --
8 Q. Do you remember seeing those two bodies?
9 A. I think I recall seeing a couple in this area and then a further
10 one or two where the water is flowing towards the lake were then in the
11 lower segment. You can just see it there. These are quite severe drops,
12 I mean 6, 8, 10 feet.
13 Q. We're looking at 6.50. He just -- 6.50 on the video. There's the
14 drops in the canal, the cascades. Is that the section you're talking
15 about below the cascades?
16 A. That's --
17 MR. EMMERSON: Please do not lead in the -- the question that
18 you've just asked is a knowingly leading question. Please ask the witness
19 where the other bodies that he saw in the water are on that photograph if
20 he can see the position.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, this is upheld.
22 THE WITNESS: I think if I can recall, Your Honour, gentlemen,
23 ladies, where you see people stood on the bank in the top right-hand
24 corner of your picture was a place from which we viewed the scene. I
25 think there was a body in the last casement down before it goes into the
1 stream, and I think I recall one further body down or upstream, whichever
2 way you -- downstream, whichever way you like in the stream itself.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Can we be clear just in that last answer whether
4 that is nearer to the camera or further away.
5 THE WITNESS: Further away, Mr. Emmerson.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we just for purposes of the record to make
9 sure that we're very clear about this, because I don't believe we're going
10 to be marking this. As I am looking at the video at 6.50.2, there seem to
11 be a total of four separate individuals on the right-hand side of the
12 photograph, two are up on the bank and then there seem to be two
13 individuals standing on the concrete cascade wall. If I understood
14 Colonel Crosland's testimony correctly, he was referring to the two
15 individuals who were in the upper right-hand portion of the photograph,
16 one of whom apparently seems to be holding some form of bag.
17 Is that correct, sir?
18 THE WITNESS: As far as I can recall, sir, that's correct. There
19 were, I don't know, 20, 30 MUP security force personnel in the area
20 carrying out, I presume, forensic activities.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
22 MR. RE:
23 Q. I'm grateful for Mr. Guy-Smith asking questions for me and I was
24 about to ask about the people there and how it accorded with your
25 recollection of MUP activity in that area when you visited.
1 A. As I said, sir, the operation was clearly still ongoing when the
2 Serb security force had found this site, I don't recall them saying. And
3 as you can see from the countryside, it is fairly thick vegetation, and
4 there was obviously concerns about security, not just for themselves but
5 also for ourselves as well. As I say, the situation was ongoing and I
6 don't -- wouldn't know whether the Serbs had just arrived there or had
7 been there for some time.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Is that now part of your presentation, that quick
10 MR. RE: No, I'm sorry, we just had a glitch and the tape rewound
11 evidently. We were at 6.50. Could we just go back to 6.50 and move it
12 from there.
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. Can you see on the canal wall there's some marks there, that's at
17 A. Yes, I can, sir, yeah.
18 Q. What did you -- what did you observe about that?
19 A. If those are the marks that we were shown, there was definite
20 bullet splashes, bullet marks, on one side of the concrete canal,
21 indicating that rounds had been fired into this wall.
22 Q. Are you talking about the inside or the outside of the canal wall
23 that the Serbs showed you?
24 A. This was on the inside of the concrete drain. So the water is
25 below these -- if these are the same ones that we were shown, because
1 you'll appreciate the film's a bit cut-and-pasted.
2 Q. Based on your 37 years of experience with ammunition, weapons,
3 military experience, what was your view of what sort of weapon could have
4 caused those marks on the wall?
5 A. I think some of the areas indicated perhaps a burst of automatic
6 fire had been fired, and others might be single shots. I think they were,
7 if I can remember rightly, they were -- and from the distance we saw them,
8 they were very distinct bullet marks in the concrete.
9 Q. What is your -- what did your observations lead you to believe the
10 distance from which those weapons would have been fired?
11 A. Well, if we had picked -- I had picked up the casings on the bank
12 that we were on, which is the southern or western bank, the range was
13 about between 10 and 15, 20 metres, yeah, about half the way across the
14 current courtroom.
15 Q. Where did you pick up the casings from in relation to those marks
16 which were shown on the video at 7.0?
17 A. I think, sir, it was just on the bank approximately opposite where
18 the bullet strikes were. I say "approximately." I can't remember, under
20 Q. And were those casings consistent with the bullet strikes you
21 observed on the inside wall of the canal, based upon --
22 A. I can't --
23 Q. -- your vast years of experience --
24 A. Sorry.
25 Q. -- in the military?
1 A. I can't make that professional judgement, sir, because I'm not a
2 qualified armourer. They are indicative of the bullet strikes that I have
3 seen over my service and from the range that they may well have been fired
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Re, that answer clearly shows that the
6 question was a little bit too far going, wasn't it.
7 MR. RE: I was appropriately guided by the answer and the look on
8 Your Honour's face.
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
10 [Videotape played]
11 MR. RE:
12 Q. 7.20 -- at 7.27 --
13 MR. RE: Just take it back just a fraction.
14 Q. At 7.26 you can see what looks to be two bodies at the top of the
15 cascades. Again, is that consistent with what you saw when you went there
16 on the 8th of September, 1998?
17 MR. EMMERSON: Again, I'm sorry. I don't think there's any
18 evidence as to what those black items in the water are.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Re --
20 MR. RE: I won't --
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- what's the sense of your question?
22 MR. RE: I won't push that. It may look to me like bodies but --
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Well, it is indeed a little unclear, isn't it?
24 MR. RE: I'll move on.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. At 7.32 --
3 MR. RE: Just stop it there.
4 Q. -- are they the splash marks that you were referring to before in
5 your evidence?
6 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
7 MR. RE: Keep moving.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. RE: Just stop there at -- just go back a fraction.
10 Q. At 8.18 you can see what appears to be the body of a person lying
11 face-down on the outside wall of the canal. Do you recall from when you
12 went there whether that body was in -- was there or not, whether that was
13 one of the bodies that you said you saw lying face-down on the -- or lying
14 on the bank?
15 A. In all honesty, Your Honour, I couldn't say that that specific
16 body was there. If you look in that area, it's quite a damp area, there's
17 scratch marks and so on and so forth. It may have been uncovered, it may
18 have been the body we saw there. I can't truthfully say that is the body
19 we saw in that position, Your Honour.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. Just stopping there at 8.49, we're looking at the outside wall of
23 the canal and what appears to be holes in it. Do you recall seeing or
24 being shown those particular marks when you went there with the MUP on the
25 8th of September, 1998?
1 A. Yes, I think they mainly concentrated on the bigger or the more
2 numerous bullet marks, splash marks on the other side of the canal. I
3 don't recall those being particularly pointed out, no.
4 [Videotape played]
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. Just pause it there. We're at 9.22 there now and it's showing us
7 the part of the -- where the canal ends and the natural ravine or stream
8 goes to the lake. Did you actually go into that area or how far did you
9 stop -- sorry, how far did you go before you stopped?
10 A. I think, sir, we were to the right of where the current writing
11 248 on the bank there. We could look down into the gully, and as you can
12 see, there's a fair amount of rubbish and detritus in the water itself.
13 Q. Amongst the rubbish and detritus, did you see any vehicles?
14 A. I think there was a remains of a car or something. There was
15 something metal. What exactly it was I don't know, which is down in the
16 bottom left-hand corner now.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. RE: That's the clip, and for the record I've played from 00
19 to 9.40. I'm finished with that exhibit.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: As you are tendering this, what did we see here?
21 Do you have any -- can give you -- can give us any indication about the
22 exact origin and date?
23 MR. RE: It's a video, our evidence is, taken by the Serbian MUP
24 on the 8th of September, 1998.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This was, as far as the date is concerned,
1 inserted, but apparently there was a mistake in the insert because that
2 couldn't have been 2.00 in the morning.
3 MR. RE: The date's clearly incorrect and there's no dispute about
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So the date itself is not very --
6 MR. RE: No, but there will be evidence --
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- official, is it?
8 MR. RE: There will be evidence later in the trial from Serbian
9 MUP --
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
11 So we will marked for identification now under the number it has
12 already received. Thank you.
13 MR. RE:
14 Q. In your testimony in Limaj, which has been tendered in this court,
15 you were referred to or shown a number of what are called DipTels. Can
16 you just very briefly explain to the Trial Chamber for the purpose of
17 these proceedings what DipTels are and what your part was in writing these
19 A. Your Honour, the -- there are two types of telegrams sent from an
20 area such as this. One is a diplomatic telegram, DipTel for short, that
21 is usually initiated by the ambassador or the deputy head of mission and,
22 where appropriate, will have military comment inserted by myself. I would
23 initiate what is called a military telegram from the Brit Mil Rep
24 Belgrade, which majority of the time was written by myself, having been
25 cleared by either the ambassador or the deputy head of mission.
1 Now, because I was down in Kosovo for extended periods, four,
2 five, six days at a time, some of these telegrams are signed by the
3 ambassador Sir Brian Donnelly on my behalf because I was not physically
4 able to sign them, but those are the two sources of telegrams.
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So you mean you would transmit the text from where
6 you were, in the province of Kosovo, and it would be then sent --
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- from Belgrade?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I had a secure set-up that I
10 could either report directly to Belgrade if the incident was serious and
11 the ambassador needed to know about it and I could also telephone direct
12 to Ministry of Defence in London.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. Is there a difference between a sitrep or DipTel sent by the
16 ambassador and signed as Donnelly and a telegram sent by yourself from the
17 Brit Mil Rep, British Military Representative, or the DA, the Defence
18 Attache in Belgrade?
19 A. As I said, sir, the Brit Mil Rep telegrams were based on my
20 reports which were carried out verbally on the spot in Kosovo into a
21 dictating machine and then transcribed once I returned to Belgrade.
22 However, if the incident was serious enough, as I think this was, then I
23 would inform directly through my secure phone both the embassy in Belgrade
24 and also London and any other friendly NATO country who happened to be
25 with me as a matter of urgency that their -- their nations understood the
1 changing situation.
2 Q. Is it fair to describe these documents as contemporaneous reports
3 of the security situation in Kosovo based upon your observations and
4 information available to you?
5 A. Yes, sir, that's exactly what they are. They are the reports made
6 at the time into a Dictaphone and then transcribed back in Belgrade.
7 Q. I want to show you --
8 A. There are some -- sorry, sir.
9 Q. No. Go on.
10 A. There are some gaps in the telegrams because some of the reports
11 were sent directly back to London as a matter of urgency and therefor
12 there may well be gaps in the 70 telegrams that I sent.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Just for clarity, on page 64, line 1, it's -- you
14 said sitrep or DipTel. I think the word "sitrep," you haven't yet
16 THE WITNESS: I apologise, Your Honour. Sitrep is military for
17 situation report --
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: -- i.e., what was going on at that particular time.
20 MR. RE:
21 Q. I'm going to show you a binder of documents, and I'm directing
22 your attention to a particular portion which is I can call the non-Limaj
23 telegrams, that is, diplomatic telegrams not tendered in the Limaj case.
24 And I want you to look at the index and I want you to look through those
25 documents, which each of them has a -- a divider in them. I just want you
1 to go through them one by one relatively quickly and just identify to
2 yourself that is, in fact, what those are.
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can we make clear, Mr. Re, we are now holding this
4 binder in our hands, containing so-called non-Limaj telegrams. But here
5 there is a division between non-diplomatic telegrams and diplomatic
6 telegrams, isn't it? Can you lead us a little more clearly. I'm lost.
7 MR. RE: Yes, it's the second one in the bundle or the binder --
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So it's the second part.
9 MR. RE: -- headed --
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
11 MR. RE: -- "Crosland DipTel proposed exhibits in chronological
12 order binder index, tab 1, first one 8 March 1998, 65 ter number 827" and
13 thereafter next 42 documents.
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, the first seven are signed by the
16 ambassador, Mr. Donnelly, with input from myself. Number 9 is signed by
17 Mr. Landsman who was the deputy head of mission. Number 10 is back to
18 Mr. Donnelly, as is 11, as is 12, 13, 14, 15, and in paragraph 2 in 15 it
19 says: "My DA has now reached Decani area." So that is the type of input
20 I was giving to these telegrams.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Maybe I may ask about the blackened lines, what we
22 should imagine the blackened part would --
23 THE WITNESS: The blackened parts --
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- blackened parts --
25 THE WITNESS: -- as I understand it, Your Honour, is the stuff
1 that has been -- information that has been redacted prior to being
2 produced for your court, sir.
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
4 MR. RE: Those are redactions the British government has made in
5 allowing the use in these proceedings. The British government has made
6 those redactions themselves.
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Understood.
8 MR. RE:
9 Q. And the one you just referred to for the record is one dated the
10 27th of April, 1998, and has a 65 ter number of 832, it was number 15 on
11 the list. Go on, Colonel.
12 A. 16 is also signed by Mr. Donnelly, as is 17, 18, 19 --
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, please, Mr. Emmerson.
14 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated] -- just made but I'm
15 receiving messages from behind that I may not be alone in this. The
16 witness has just made a reference to paragraph 2 in the document behind
17 tab 15, and it may -- in which he said I think it makes a reference to my
18 DA now reaching the Decani area in paragraph 2 of the document behind tab
19 15. Now, if that's what the witness's document behind tab 15 says, it's
20 not what mine says.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I agree.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Unless it's in front of tab 15, is it? Is it tab
23 14 that the witness is looking at? Yes, I'm sorry, I think --
24 THE WITNESS: Sorry. Have I gone the wrong way then?
25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry -- I think it's tab 14, rather than 15
1 then. Fine.
2 THE WITNESS: No, I apologise.
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: No, it's understood that the document after the
4 grey leaf with a number --
5 THE WITNESS: I apologise then.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: But that's easy to mix up. Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: Going then to document 19 is an example of a report
8 based on my reporting to the ambassador because he has signed it for me
9 but it's actually from the Brit Mil Rep Belgrade at the time, so that's an
10 example of what I was informing the Court of before, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So the number on the top of this --
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry -- I still -- I seem to be still having
13 a problem. I don't know if it's you, Colonel, or it's me. I don't think
14 I'm looking at all at the same documents the colonel is alluding to.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, I just was trying to make sure we are all
16 looking at the same document.
17 Can you give us the number on top of the page.
18 THE WITNESS: The number at the top --
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: With the R.
20 THE WITNESS: It's R0428546.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, this is, at least in my binder after tab 19,
22 second part of that whole binder. This is -- this was my first concern,
23 you remember. Now --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please.
1 You're welcome.
2 MR. RE:
3 Q. Please continue, Colonel.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 THE WITNESS: 20 is signed by Ambassador Donnelly -- or is that
6 21 ? 21 also, 22, 23 - sorry - 24 you will see is sent from the acting
7 Defence Attache. I was back in England on leave for the wedding of my --
8 our eldest daughter. So the acting Defence Attache made that report and
9 it is again signed by Ambassador Donnelly. 25 is signed by Mr. Donnelly,
10 as is 26, 27, 28. 29 is back to a Brit Mil Rep, again signed by the
11 ambassador. 30 is Mr. Donnelly, 31 is Mr. Donnelly, 32 is also
12 Mr. Donnelly, as is 33 and 34 and 35 --
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Maybe can we clarify, Mr. Re, do we have to pay
14 attention to the handwritten three-digit numbers which sometimes are
15 contained in addition to the R0 and so on number? Is there a 65 ter
17 MR. RE: Yes. It won't form part of the exhibit as loaded into
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: 36 is Mr. Donnelly, 37. 38 is signed by
21 Mr. Landsman, deputy head of mission, as is 39, and 40, 41, and also 42,
22 Your Honour.
23 MR. RE: I'm moving for their admission into evidence on the basis
24 that these are DipTels emanating from the former military attache's own
25 hand or his office.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please, Mr. Emmerson.
2 MR. EMMERSON: That application is resisted. I made it absolutely
3 clear earlier on. These documents were provided to us as we entered court
4 this afternoon. I have no objection to Mr. Re, if the time is available
5 to him, seeking to elicit from the witness information arising out of
6 particular documents, but to seek to admit them as stand-alone documents
7 when they are in any event composite documents and whenever they have this
8 witness's sitreps or DipTels have been adduced in the past, they have been
9 adduced by showing him a particular document and inviting him to comment
10 upon the contents and explain them. But simply to seek to adduce en bloc
11 a collection of documentation without explanation beyond the fact that it
12 is identified when this is military material, some of which requires
13 analysis and explanation in our submission is not the appropriate
15 I'm not suggesting that a final decision needs to be taken now
16 because I shall be asking Colonel Crosland some questions about certain of
17 his reports during the course of cross-examination, but I would most
18 certainly resist any en masse attempt to exhibit a collection of
19 unexplained composite documents in that way.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
21 Mr. Re.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would join in those remarks. I think it is
23 probably at this juncture appropriate to have them marked for
24 identification, and as the course of examination continues, certainly by
25 its conclusion, the Chamber will be in a position to make a determination
1 of what's the appropriate method of dealing with their admission.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sure.
3 If I may look to Mr. Harvey --
4 MR. HARVEY: Like Homer, I nod.
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yeah. Would you be fine? I would have in mind we
6 would mark them for identification and decide about admission later, in
7 any case was my intention, which we mark them as 42 different exhibits, as
8 they contain --
9 MR. RE: Yes, they have --
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- contents of the second part of this binder as
11 the 65 ter numbers also go?
12 MR. RE: Well, that would correspond with the next exhibit numbers
13 from whatever the next one is 1 --
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, but these are 42 distinct documents, aren't
16 MR. RE: Yes.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
18 MR. RE: Your Honour --
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Also in order to avoid confusion with the first
20 part of the binder. We have now dealt only with the second part of the
21 binder, tab 1 to 42. Yes?
22 MR. RE: If I could briefly respond, I -- I mean, I agree with
23 what Mr. Emmerson is saying. For example, in the Limaj trial Mr. Cayley,
24 the senior trial attorney there, took Colonel Crosland through each of the
25 documents and read on to the record the relevant part and asked him to
1 explain their relevance. For me to do so would probably take a full day
2 of testimony and with the other documents, possibly more. I am basically
3 in the Court's hands in terms of timing and I would dearly love to get the
4 colonel to explain in greater detail how he contributed to these military
5 documents, what they mean, how they work in their context --
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
7 MR. RE: -- and how they relate to other aspects of the case, and
8 if I'm allowed the time to do so I would willingly do so and I don't
9 disagree with what the Defence is saying in terms of the mechanism for
10 tendering them in this manner.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you, Mr. Re.
12 I don't think we need this extensive exercise you pictured now,
13 but may I ask, Mr. Crosland, did you -- have you seen them - this is more
14 a general impression now you can give - before, in principle?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. You will appreciate I have given
16 quite a few testimonies to the Court. As far as I'm aware, I have seen
17 all those documents, yes.
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. And would you explain to us was
19 that -- was how you contributed to most of them?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. As I said to the Court that very
21 often I would communicate with the ambassador back in Belgrade or when he
22 was down in Pristina, and inform him of the current and local situation so
23 that he had and also my own Ministry of Defence had the up-to-date
24 situation that was pertinent in Kosovo at the time.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
1 I would suggest we consider this sufficient elucidation for the
2 moment to mark it for identification.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I've got no difficulty with that at all but may I
4 make just one matter absolutely clear?
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
6 MR. EMMERSON: It is for me at some point today or tomorrow to
7 cross-examine this witness. In the absence of the Prosecution identifying
8 which of these particular documents it seeks to rely upon as evidence
9 against my client and to seek testimony explaining the relevance of the
10 document, I have no notice of the case I have to meet in respect to any
11 one of these documents and so ...
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MR. EMMERSON: So the difficulty I have is that it's not simply a
14 matter of procedurally how convenient it is to tender, nor is it me, if I
15 may say so, standing on form in this matter; it's a question of
16 substance. If there is material in this -- this particular collection of
17 documents on which the Prosecution seeks to rely, it's given no notice to
18 the Defence as to what the relevance of the document is. And if Mr. Re
19 currently proposes simply to leave it at that, we are not in a position to
20 know what it is we have to cross-examine upon.
21 That being the case, I don't want anybody to be under the
22 misapprehension that by marking it for identification and the witness
23 having identified himself as recognising and being a part author to this
24 document that there could come a situation in which I could concede that
25 it would be fair to admit them because it plainly would be unfair if the
1 Defence were put into a position of cross-examining on them without their
2 significance having been dealt with by the Prosecution.
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
4 Do you have a question?
5 JUDGE STOLE: The situation of course is the same for the members
6 of the Court. We have this material this morning, so we have had no
7 possibility at all to look into what is the content of these binders.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I'm sure, Mr. Re, you would be able to filter it
9 as to the relevance and as to the point what you would consider exactly
11 MR. RE: Yes, but we have selected these on the basis of their
12 relevance to the case of there being an armed conflict between the KLA and
13 Serb forces; namely, the MUP and the VJ, during the relevant period of
14 the -- relevant indictment period. I mean, the first one starts on the
15 8th of March, 1998, summary says: "Parts of Drenica still inaccessible.
16 No evidence of large-scale exchanges at present. The substantial police
17 forces in the area may be moving from Prekaz, scene of the heaviest
18 fighting so far and several other villages," and so on. So every document
19 when you look at them shows the state of security in Kosovo and in
20 particular, relevant to this particular area during the indictment
21 period. That's why we're leading them. And when combined with the
22 material tendered in Limaj you put the two together and you get a picture
23 of the jurisdictional issue -- threshold of armed conflict.
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
25 Mr. Emmerson.
1 MR. EMMERSON: It's helpful for Mr. Re to have said on his feet
2 just now for the first time what it is he wants the material for, but it's
3 of very little use to the Defence to have that kind of indication given
4 extempore in court with no notice or notification and no attempt to use
5 the material in the course of evidence in chief and it doesn't affect the
6 position that I outlined to Your Honour a moment ago at all.
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I understand.
8 Just a moment, please.
9 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Well, we are coming to the time to make a break
11 anyway, but I would like to suggest, Mr. Re, you could think about it
12 during the break, if you could, having a little more time now beyond your
13 original time budget, give us an idea to what kind of information
14 contained in these documents you are referring. After the break you would
15 be suggested to go through two or three of these documents in a
16 representative way with the witness to show the Defence -- to put the
17 Defence on notice, yeah, what your intention is.
18 MR. RE: -- see what they contain.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon? The last sentence was not complete.
20 MR. RE: You mean a sample of what they contain -- a
21 representative sample, I think is --
22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Exactly.
23 MR. RE: -- what we say here.
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Court adjourns or takes a break now until quarter
25 past 6.00. Thank you.
1 --- Recess taken at 5.54 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Before we start again, may I ask Madam Registrar,
4 do we already have numbers for these 42 documents being marked for
5 identification or --
6 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honours. These 42 tabs would be in
7 numerical order. Tab number 1, 70 -- Exhibit Number 73 up to --
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: P73?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, sorry P73 up to Exhibit Number
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. These are marked for identification.
12 Please, Mr. Re.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Should we put them under seal? Is there a --
15 yes. We can later decide if we would lift that seal. Thank you.
16 MR. RE: We're offering them pursuant to Rule 70. They are the
17 restrictions the British government has placed on our using them in these
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. Please continue.
20 MR. RE:
21 Q. Colonel Crosland, I want to take you to some of the documents
22 which are in that document range. The first one I would take you to is
23 behind tab -- behind tab 11. 16th of March is what I -- it should be tab
24 3. And it's a DipTel dated the -- I'm sorry, 9th of March, 19 -- sorry.
25 What am I talking about? 16th -- sorry, 16th of March -- I was reading it
1 the wrong way. 16th of March, 1998. And it's Donnelly written on the
2 bottom of it. And the summary says: "Serbian government invites Kosovo
3 Albanian political parties to talk for the third time," et cetera, et
4 cetera --
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sorry, Mr. Re, may I now ask you, as you referred
6 to some restrictions the British government has placed on our using these
7 documents in these proceedings, would that mean we would have to go to
8 private session?
9 MR. RE: No, no. We're using them in the same way that we used
10 them in the Limaj --
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I haven't been to the Limaj case.
12 MR. RE: What happened in Limaj was the Prosecution read the
13 relevant parts on to the record. The British government doesn't want the
14 documents themselves publicly revealed, but --
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, now I remember.
16 MR. RE: But it's not a difficulty with some of the contents.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I think I read that, yes. Thank you.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. What I want to take you to -- Colonel, do you have that there?
20 A. Yes, I do, sir.
21 Q. The relevant part is "security situation" and the second paragraph
22 there is paragraph 8, it said: "The Serbian interior ministry said on
23 14th of March that the 'terrorists' had resumed operations in Kosovo. The
24 statement says the two attacks were carried out on Catholic Albanians in
25 Djakovica, south of Pristina and the Drenica area over the weekend. Two
1 Albanians were wounded. Nobody has been apprehended and LDK says that an
2 Albanian man was shot dead by police snipers on the 14th of March in
3 Srbica, Drenica, this has not yet been confirmed by other sources."
4 The relevant portion I'm asking you about is about the two attacks
5 carried out on Catholic Albanians over the weekend. Now, in the context
6 of your evidence and your monitoring of activities on the ground, can you
7 tell the Court about the significance of what you've written there.
8 A. So there seems to be a misunderstanding. I have not written these
10 Q. Sorry.
11 A. I'm not --
12 Q. I do understand that.
13 A. I'm under oath to say what I have written and what I haven't
14 written. So I apologise for putting you in a difficult situation, but --
15 Q. No. I'm not -- I'm not in a difficult position. These are
16 DipTels emanating from the ambassador, under the hand of the ambassador.
17 I'm asking you about -- when I said you wrote, that was my error.
18 A. We --
19 Q. I'm asking you about the significance of that particular passage.
20 A. We were briefed at reasonably regular intervals by the Vojska
21 Jugoslavije, because as I said we are -- I am only accredited to the
22 Vojska Jugoslavije. And they would indicate at these briefings that the
23 very poorest nature of the Albanian and Macedonian border was heralding
24 further incursions and incidents within what was the province of Kosovo
25 which was then sovereign territory of former Yugoslavia. And therefore,
1 every event that was assigned to, let's put it, Albanian activity would be
2 mentioned as part of their ongoing information programme.
3 Q. The source of the information there are you saying was the Serbian
5 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
6 Q. The next one I take you to is behind tab 6, the 24th of March,
7 1998. I take you to paragraph 2 where it says: "The 9th of March Contact
8 Group statement requires the following of the FRY: Withdraw special
9 unit -- police units and cease action by the security forces affecting the
10 civilian population."
11 Paragraph 3 says: "My DA," and I assume that's Defence Attache,
12 that is you.
13 A. That's correct, sir.
14 Q. "Reports that a substantial police presence meaning 100 to 200
15 APCs check-points remains in the Drenica area. Their positions are still
16 being reinforced, given the impression they intend to stay for the
17 foreseeable future. Special forces in Decani and Djakovica are at a high
18 alert level and reliable reports are coming in of renewed fighting in this
19 region and two others. We shall report on these separately once the
20 picture is clear."
21 I want you to comment on the source of the information if you
22 still can which you have given to Mr. Donnelly to report on.
23 A. That, sir, would be based on a report -- a tour of mine in the
24 area of Kosovo which included going around the Drenica, which as I've
25 indicated there still had a very heavy Serbian security presence, which is
1 understandable, bearing in mind we're only two weeks from the initial
2 Donji Prekaz problems. The special forces in Decani and Djakovica, we
3 found those out by visiting that area and an artillery position at Decani
4 by physically going -- driving through it. And So the implications that
5 special forces were involved, again, makes good military sense but also
6 indicates that the situation was beginning to get or had more serious
7 connotations to it.
8 Q. Is that what's -- is that what you mean by saying they were on
9 high alert?
10 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
11 Q. What was the difference between the special forces and the regular
12 MUP forces?
13 A. Special forces are used on high-value targets, they're also used
14 to gather intelligence, and they have systems and intelligence systems
15 that the normal troops do not have, and bearing in mind we -- or they were
16 trying to get information primarily adjacent to the Albanian border with
17 Kosovo because this was, as I've said before, was where the perceived
18 resupply of men and materiels would be coming from.
19 Q. Were the special forces part of the MUP or the VJ?
20 A. The special forces are Vojska Jugoslavije. The MUP had their own
21 special police.
22 Q. It says: "Reliable reports are coming in of renewed fighting in
23 this region and two others." Just concentrating on this region, can you
24 now say what the reports were of the renewed fighting in that region?
25 A. I think that would refer to probably the area around Junik and
1 the -- generally the western area of Kosovo, Decani being a major
3 Q. The next I want to take you to is headed: "Incident at
4 Babaloc" --
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon, can we also hear -- check the sources of
6 information. It wasn't actually quite clear to me in the first example
7 when you asked for that and in page 78, line 11, the answer then was -- or
8 actually, your question was: "The source of information there, are you
9 saying was the Serbian military?" And the answer was: "That's correct,
10 sir, yes." And --
11 MR. EMMERSON: I'm --
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- I'm not so sure if that is sufficiently clear.
13 MR. EMMERSON: I just wanted to draw Your Honours' attention and
14 Mr. Re's attention to the date of this document --
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. That's the second --
16 MR. EMMERSON: -- apparent significance.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- question. Yes. Can we discuss the date also.
18 MR. RE: Just to clear up His Honour Judge Hoepfel's question
19 there, Colonel, in relation to the source of information being the Serbian
20 military, can you expand a bit on what your sources were within the
21 Serbian military which --
22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Actually there for --
23 MR. RE: -- was --
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- for that, we would have to go back to the tab 3
25 because there was a question to tab 3 and then jump again to tab 6. Sorry
1 for that complication.
2 THE WITNESS: Perhaps, Your Honour, I could help with a few words
3 if I'm allowed.
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please.
5 THE WITNESS: I think what is attempted to be said here by number
6 3 is that on paragraph 4: "My Defence Attache has been touring in Kosovo
7 today," and then goes on to say: "Drenica is quiet," et cetera. I think
8 what the ambassador is trying to convey to people that at this early stage
9 when little interest was being taken in the problems that were going to
10 accrue within Kosovo, one was trying to put a flavour of the depth and
11 spectrum of operations that were starting to unfold.
12 The initial attack on the Jashari family in Prekaz had probably
13 taught the Kosovo Liberation Army a lesson, as I indicated earlier. We're
14 now looking -- we're attempting to look at a wider picture of what was
15 going on within the province of Kosovo and quite naturally as an
16 ex-special forces officer -- as a special forces officer, one is looking
17 for the indicators that a regime or an army or a security force, whatever
18 you would like to call the Serbian, is preparing to defend its borders.
19 As I indicate here, Kosovo then was a sovereign part of Serbia -- of
20 Yugoslavia. And therefore the border incursions were taken extremely
21 seriously by the Vojska Jugoslavije and the MUP and they were preparing,
22 in my humble opinion, correctly and carefully to try and prevent the
23 border becoming a very open sieve as it did later on in March 1998. I
24 hope that's helpful.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. So can we say that VJ and MUP together
1 provided information you needed for that?
2 THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir. The Vojska Jugoslavije had
3 border security as their primary task in the early days, and the internal
4 security was actually that of the MUP. It then merged as the situation
5 became more serious.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you for making it more precise. Now we can
7 go back again to tab 6. Please, I can hand over to you, Mr. Re.
8 MR. RE:
9 Q. Were you aware or given information about an attack by Serbian MUP
10 military forces on the Haradinaj family compound?
11 A. Not -- not at this stage, no, I don't recall that.
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Maybe we can address the date, as Mr. Emmerson
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. That was on the 24th of March, 1998. Does that assist your
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can we get an explanation how we can read the
18 date, I mean for the Bench it's clear, but maybe it's a precision
20 MR. EMMERSON: I think -- I'm sorry -- the method of reading the
21 date I think is clear. The first figure is the day of the month. My
22 understanding is that the following four figures are a time, and then the
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yeah.
25 MR. EMMERSON: The significance is simply, as Mr. Re points out,
1 the 24th of March was the day of the attack on Glodjane.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Of course. That's quite an -- quite a relevant
3 date. It's clear to us.
4 And can you -- do you want to have this confirmed, that this is
5 the date, or what was the gist of your question -- which is a remark, I
6 have the impression?
7 MR. EMMERSON: No, I'm entirely happy. Maybe for the sake of the
8 record Mr. Re want to confirm that the method of reading the date as I've
9 suggested is correct, i.e., the first two digits are the date and then the
10 second remaining digits are the time.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is what I was meaning also, yes.
12 MR. RE: That's quite correct, but time probably doesn't allow
13 me to --
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I think it would be the witness to clarify that or
15 would you like to explain this or better to ask --
16 MR. RE:
17 Q. Is what Mr. Emmerson and with my agreement correct, Colonel?
18 A. Yes, that is correct. The date appears and then the time, and
19 Zulu is the time zone that we were working in, which is one hour ahead of
20 Greenwich Mean Time. What perhaps is further clouding the issue is that
21 these reports were sent at the time/date stated but sometimes -- many
22 times refer to events that have already gone through and may be linked to
23 events going ahead, so there is a plethora of times that confuse the
25 Q. And time doesn't probably permit me, but in the Limaj testimony
1 Exhibit 92 -- 92, tab 5 which is tab 4 of the Limaj P92 exhibits is --
2 does refer to that particular exhibit. It's in the evidence in the Limaj
4 If I could take you to the next one, which is Kosovo incident at
5 Babaloc. The date is the 22nd of April, 1998.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And the tab number?
7 MR. RE: 12.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The tab would be number ...?
9 THE WITNESS: 12, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
11 MR. RE:
12 Q. Tab 12 it's headed: "Kosovo: Incident at Babaloc" and "Summary:
13 FRY warned of concern at reported Yugoslav Army involvement in fighting
14 around Babaloc on 22nd of April. Deny any change of policy."
15 And: "Detail," at paragraph 2, "Telecons under reference
16 discussed media reports of fighting around Babaloc (in the Decani region,
17 halfway between Pec and Djakovica, about 15 kilometers from the Albanian
18 border) in which the Yugoslav Army was said to have been -- or said to be
19 involved, and our grounds for considering them credible. It was agreed
20 that I should immediately warn the FRY of our concern.
21 Paragraph 5 refers to: "Tension is particularly high because the
22 Serb refugees from other villages in the Decani region have taken
23 temporary refuge in a disused recreation camp near Babaloc. Journalists
24 and others visiting the area today came under attack with stones and fists
25 from angry Serbs." It's signed Donnelly.
1 Did you visit the area of Babaloc at that time?
2 A. I think that I did make a tour into that area because it's, as
3 this report says, and as I have indicated to the Court before that the
4 area between Pec and Djakovica on the border was, again, an area of great
5 concern to both entities. And initially, most of the villages from as far
6 away as Junik north towards Pec were cleared of their inhabitants, whether
7 they be Serb or Albanian. Some of the people landing up in the Rugovska
8 pass and others moving across into either Montenegro or into Albania.
9 Q. What was the source of information about -- it says: "Telecons
10 and reference discussed media reports of fighting around Babaloc." What
11 was the source of the information about the fighting and the deployment --
12 or the alleged involvement of the Yugoslav Army?
13 A. Well, there is initially a complete denial by the Vojska
14 Jugoslavije that they were at all engaged in operations against the
15 insurgent bands, and this was kept up for a very long time, I think up
16 until about August when Colonel-General Ojdanic eventually admitted that
17 the Vojska Jugoslavije had been involved in operations, despite the fact
18 that I had seen and produced a video which was given to the Vojska
19 Jugoslavije of artillery, main battle tanks, and the major destructive
20 parts -- sorry. And the major destructive parts of the Vojska Jugoslavije
21 being used in counter-insurgency operations.
22 Q. Colonel, I'm -- what I'm just asking you about at the moment is
23 the source of your information in that specific report.
24 A. I think it probably refers to one of my own reports based on a
25 visit to the area and appreciating what I had seen at first hand.
1 Q. If you go to the next document, the next tab, the date is the 23rd
2 of April, 1998, and it's headed: "Kosovo security sitrep at 1400Z 23rd of
3 April. Summary 1: Largest and most heavily armed Yugoslav Army VJ
4 presence in Kosovo since the beginning of crisis. Concentrated in border
5 areas but most visible elsewhere. Aircraft and helicopters in use. Gun
6 emplacements in strategic positions, but no reports of major conflict
7 in -- life in bigger towns proceeding normally. One report of two
8 Albanians killed and six to eight injured following attack on VJ patrol
9 this morning. It sounds like -- suspiciously like similar report TUR.
10 Then goes to "Detail."
11 "My DA has now reached the Decani area and has confirmed the
12 essence of the media and other accounts about the situation reported in
13 TUR," T-U-R.
14 Going down: "Orao," O-r-a-o, "('Eagle') jet bomber not normally
15 based in Kosovo has been overflying the Decani area, together with Gazelle
16 helicopters. There are some signs that the MUP and VJ may be working
18 Paragraph 3. I'm going through it quickly: "Tensions remain
19 high, but there has not as yet been any major escalation in any of the
20 bigger towns like Pec and Djakovica. Life is proceeding normally."
21 I just want you to comment in general terms, bearing the time we
22 have, about the source of your information, you being the DA who has
23 reached Decani there and what you saw.
24 A. So this information is based on my visual, factual reporting on
25 the spot from Decani and the other areas mentioned. It makes perfect
1 sense that as the situation was deteriorating, the Serbian security forces
2 were taking what they call appropriate measures to defend their sovereign
3 territory, and these included the various facets that we have talked about
4 in paragraph 2, the fact that a jet bomber called an Orao was seen in the
5 area again indicated the seriousness of the situation.
6 Q. What's TUR, T-U-R?
7 A. Good point. I think it must refer to another telegram, but ...
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: While the witness thinks about this question, I
9 also would have asked that -- can I clarify, Mr. Re, do you have three
10 pages of this document or -- in my binder there's only one page, and then
11 it goes on with three pages later, according to this R04, and so on,
12 number. We should maybe supplement the document.
13 MR. RE: I have checked that on our system, I did a search, and I
14 couldn't find the second page. I did it before I came to court, but I
15 will make another inquiry. It doesn't seem like we've entered it onto our
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: We will check that also with the 65 ter number, so
18 we will be able to find it probably. Okay. Thank you.
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. If you could turn to tab 15, please, Colonel, which is 27th of
21 April, 1998. The summary says: "Reports of three major incidents over
22 the weekend. Three Albanians killed in a gun battle west of Decani early
23 Monday morning. VJ action to prevent 200 Albanians crossing the
24 FRY-Albania border near Prizren and a four-hour fire-fight near
25 Lake Radonjic. Funerals of nine Albanians killed in the 23rd April border
4 "2. There have been reports of three major incidents over the
5 weekend. First, three Albanians were reported dead in a gun-battle with
6 VJ troops west of the town of Decani in the early hours of Monday
7 morning" --
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: A little slower, please. Just a little slower.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Re please slow
10 down while reading documents, otherwise we are entirely unable to follow
11 at this pace. Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The interpreters are saying exactly the same:
13 Please slow down.
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. "The VJ claim to have stopped 200 Albanians illegally crossing the
16 FRY-Albania border near Prizren on Saturday night/Sunday morning. The
17 Albanians are reported to have left large quantity of weapons and
18 ammunitions behind. The VJ claim to have taken no casualties. There are
19 no reports of Albanian casualties. Four-hour gun," sorry, "fire-fight
20 near Lake Radonjic between Decani and Djakovica on Saturday evening
21 apparently left no casualties."
22 I just want to ask you to comment on that. Was that based upon
23 information that you provided to Mr. Donnelly while you were in Kosovo or
24 does it come from another source?
25 A. This would be provided by Vojska Jugoslavije in Belgrade as part
1 of -- as part of their ongoing analysis of a worsening situation.
2 Q. Do you have any better information on the four-hour fire-fight
3 near Lake Radonjic between -- on the Saturday evening?
4 A. The southern end of Lake Radonjic was a major Serb army MUP base,
5 and therefore a likely target area. I can't confirm or deny whether
6 they -- this particular fire-fight took place.
7 Q. Are you able to say from this who the fire-fight was between?
8 A. I suspect it was from a vehicle check-point, an isolated Serbian
9 security pocket that may have been bumped into by the KLA and a lengthy
10 fire-fight took place with, apparently, no casualties, which --
11 Q. Why do you say that?
12 A. Which just indicates that a lot of -- you know, both sides fired
13 off an awful lot of rounds into the air and didn't really achieve a great
15 Q. The next one I want to take you to is the 28th of April, 1998,
16 tab 16, and it refers to in paragraph 3: "Beta, a local independent news
17 agency, is reporting that eight Albanians were killed in police activity
18 against the village of Glodjane near Decani, widely believed to be a KLA
19 headquarters. Two people, apparently Albanians in the process of carrying
20 out an attack, were killed in an incident near a police check-point on the
21 Prizren-Orahovac road."
22 Same question: What is the source of the information there which
23 has gone into this DipTel?
24 A. As it states, sir, it is from Beta, which is the independent news
1 Q. A better question from me would have been: What is the
2 reliability of the source which is quoted there?
3 A. I think that it's a reasonable source. It's indicative of the
4 number of assaults that were being carried out throughout the province of
5 Kosovo during this period. It is impossible for any person to be at each
6 and every incident and to verify those incidents, so that is why you're
7 getting different sources telling of different incidents.
8 Q. Please go to the next one which is behind tab 17, and that's dated
9 the 29th of April, 1998. And under "Security" it says: "The number of
10 incidents reported by the media over the last 24 hours is smaller than in
11 recent days, but my DA," that's you, "who was in Kosovo on the 28th of
12 April assesses that the number of police in the area was higher than at
13 any stage so far in the crisis and that army -- VJ activity is also at its
14 highest level. The risks of a major clash remain very high. One
15 unconfirmed Albanian report claims that four VJ personnel were killed in
16 incidents on the 27th of April."
17 The question I have there is: Where in Kosovo did you go to
18 compile this report and what did you see that led you to report that and
19 what was the -- what was its significance? There's three questions there.
20 A. Yeah. I think it just reinforces what I've just said, sir, that
21 because I was touring down there on a very, very regular basis, one could
22 accurately note, physically note, the positions of most of the Serbian
23 security forces, and you would see whether there had been a change or
24 there had not. There was a lot of propaganda suggesting that all the
25 forces in the province of Kosovo were assigned to 52 Corps, the original
1 army unit based in Kosovo. We had evidence at time that extra units had
2 been put into Kosovo. We also worked out from the very numbers of the MUP
3 that they also were on a higher alert by the amount of men and the
4 vehicles that had registration marks outside of the province of Kosovo.
5 So I think this paragraph here indicates that in my opinion there
6 was still a very major risk and that tensions were extremely high. There
7 was a state of -- you know, not quite war because war is to be declared,
8 but there was a state of combat, if you will, between the Serbian security
9 forces and the Kosovo Liberation Army.
10 Q. I'll take you to the next one which is the 8th of May --
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: We have five minutes.
12 MR. RE: There's two more I want to take him to.
13 Q. That's tab 18. And it says paragraph 5, under "Security:
14 "Fighting around Ponosevac continues. My DA was forcibly
15 prevented from entering the area on the 7th of May. This is the first
16 time since the start of the conflict that this has happened. He could
17 hear a fire-fight in the background. DA this morning reported that the
18 current level of VJ activity in Kosovo is probably the highest since its
19 deployment in the Eastern Slavonia two years ago," and then it goes on.
20 Can you just very briefly tell us what that was about.
21 A. We were touring in the area and, I think, stayed overnight at
22 Djakovica, and therefore were -- we then attempted to move west of
23 Djakovica towards the border area towards this town called Ponosevac; and
24 that is where we were stopped by the Vojska Jugoslavije, who would not
25 allow us in to a border security area.
1 Perhaps it may help, Your Honour, if I explain that in an
2 operational area, if I was in charge of operations, I would not like
3 Defence Attaches and other people running around my patch seeing what we
4 were doing. So why we were allowed such access I don't know, perhaps it
5 was the whiskey I was carrying. But it's an extraordinary -- and I've
6 said this before, that we did get access to areas that other people did
7 not. But it reinforces the point I tried to make some time ago that the
8 border area, particularly west of the major road, Prizren to Djakovica and
9 up to Pec, was an extremely dangerous and fought-over area for all the
10 reasons I've already given the Court. Ponosevac, again, was about
11 10 kilometres from the border itself, a VJ/MUP base leading up to Qafe
12 Morina which is a border-post right on the Albanian border and more or
13 less in the heart of where a lot of the resupply was done from Albania.
14 So it was an area of major interest and concern to both sides as to who
15 controlled this area. I hope that clarifies the situation a bit.
16 Q. The last one in this series I wish to take you to is the 28th of
17 May, 1998, that's behind tab 22. And under "Security" it refers to: "A
18 Belgrade newspaper claims the town of Decani has been surrounded by the
19 KLA the last four days. Albanian sources, however, insist that there is a
20 bigger build-up of Serbian forces around the town preventing food-supplies
21 from getting through. There are also reports of large numbers of police
22 reinforcements being deployed in Glogovac (Drenica), Pec, and Srbica."
23 Then it refers to the use of tanks and APCs noted by the ECMM.
24 And then it refers to tanks and the ECMM. The question is this: What is
25 your information about the truth, one side saying that KLA is surrounding
1 Decani, the other one saying that it's the Serbian forces preventing food
2 going through. What was your information about where the truth lay?
3 A. I suspect somewhere in the middle, to be perfectly honest. Decani
4 was a -- or is a patriarchal seat with a very famous monastery, and
5 therefore an area very precious to the Serbian nation as a whole. As I've
6 said, it's one of the key areas along the major western road and also one
7 of the key areas to try and maintain some control over, as I said many
8 times, a very porous and difficult border to defend.
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I suppose we can take this answer as an
10 estimate -- as a guesstimate, this is the word I learned today, as you
11 said "I suspect somewhere in the middle." There was --
12 THE WITNESS: I think.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- the answer to where the truth would lie.
14 THE WITNESS: You're quite right, Your Honour. There is -- in all
15 these operations that I've come across, the media speculation is intense,
16 in both supporting the security forces and also the media of the terrorist
17 forces putting out their own propaganda, and one would expect that from
18 both sides.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And in this case you didn't have any better
21 THE WITNESS: Not unless we were there and visibly saw it
22 ourselves, and that's where we tried to make a proper judgement and report
23 both fairly and firmly on both sides, sir.
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you, sir.
25 Mr. Re, I suppose we are close to the end of examination-in-chief,
1 or am I completely wrong?
2 MR. RE: [Indiscernible] -- refer him to an ECMM one.
3 Q. If you could turn to the very beginning at tab 3 --
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: We were overlapping.
5 MR. RE: [Indiscernible] --
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Just start your sentence once more what we are now
8 MR. RE: Turning to the very beginning of the binder, tab 3, it's
9 under the heading: "Crosland non-DipTel proposed exhibits in
10 chronological order." Number 3, which is 65 ter Exhibit Number 638.
11 Q. All I want you to do, Colonel --
12 A. I'm sorry I missed it. Which one?
13 Q. I'm sorry [Indiscernible] --
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Now we are in the first part of the binder. Is
15 that right?
16 MR. RE: It's actually tab 2 and it's the 9th of April, 1998, and
17 it's Exhibit Number 637.
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is now the other part of the binder?
19 MR. RE: It's the very beginning of the binder.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. All I want you to do is look at that document. It's an ECMM
23 document which is provided under Rule 70, and I just want you to identify
24 that it refers to meeting with -- a meeting between you, that's
25 Colonel John Crosland, and ECMM officials.
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. RE: I wish to tender that document or have it marked for
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is now 65 ter number 637, right, the
6 document --
7 MR. RE: That's correct.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- after tab 2 in the first part of the binder.
9 Can we have a number?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P115.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Marked for identification. Thank you.
12 MR. RE: For completeness of the Limaj testimony and the
13 exhibits -- and I appreciate the -- P92 is still under consideration, I
14 just wish to show the Colonel the map which he used and which I think is
15 necessary to make explicable his evidence in Limaj because it's referring
16 to him drawing on a map. If I could just show this to the Colonel and
17 just have him -- it's not?
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, please. May Madam Usher show it to the
19 witness --
20 THE WITNESS: I've signed it already.
21 MR. RE: I've just been corrected. It's actually the map he drew
22 for his June 2006 statement for the Prosecution.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay.
24 Can you show it still to the witness.
25 And, Colonel Crosland, may you confirm that.
1 MR. RE: It's Exhibit -- 65 ter Exhibit 802.
2 Q. I just want you to confirm what you've drawn on that map. You've
3 made some markings on it. What is it?
4 A. This map refers to the Dukadjin area, and the various areas in
5 blue which was where the -- there was Serb security force positions, both
6 MUP and Vojska Jugoslavije, so -- and a big red space in the middle has
7 got "KLA" written on it. It doesn't mean to say the KLA owned the whole
8 area, but it was more of a KLA influence in that area. But it needs -- I
9 mean, I think it would need further explanation to the Court.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. That is enough for now.
11 May we give it a number?
12 MR. RE: May it receive an exhibit number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P116,
14 marked for identification.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.
16 MR. RE: Noting the time, Your Honours, I had intended to get a
17 better explanation from the witness as to the contents of the map and what
18 he means by "influence" versus anything else, and I had intended to ask
19 the witness about ten documents at the beginning of the binder, not the
20 ECMM ones. Those were my intentions, but I note the time and I note the
21 time you've allowed me to examine the witness in chief.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Well, Mr. Re, for today we have to close.
24 What is the position of the Defence as to these potential
25 additional questions?
1 MR. EMMERSON: I -- I'm in some difficulties in this sense, that
2 we have to try to make as much progress as is possible tomorrow. I can,
3 of course, ask Mr. -- Colonel Crosland myself certain clarificatory
4 questions. One matter that is rather important, though, is the status of
5 the tendered 92 ter statement because Mr. Re has had the opportunity to
6 elicit material in chief. I am assuming, in preparing for
7 cross-examination, on the basis that the case I have to meet is the case
8 that was led in chief and that there's no question now of me having to
9 cross-examine on the basis of material in the 92 ter statement that wasn't
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you for this important question.
12 Mr. Re, how is it for you about this statement?
13 MR. RE: There is no 92 ter statement. Is Mr. Emmerson referring
14 to the Limaj transcript --
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The statement dated the 20 April -- in fact , 19th
16 April. Do you remember you presented it to us this morning? Yes.
17 MR. EMMERSON: I received an e-mail from Mr. Zahar saying you had
18 ruled against me, and I wasn't -- I hadn't tendered it.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You were not intending anymore to --
20 MR. EMMERSON: In those circumstances, we are ad litem and I will
21 cross-examine on the basis of the evidence elicited orally in court.
22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
23 MR. EMMERSON: And so far as clarification of this map is
24 concerned, I am more than happy to deal with that myself in
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Very good. And the other -- there was something
3 Please, Mr. Re.
4 MR. RE: [Microphone not activated] -- Mr. Emmerson is very happy
5 to deal with it by putting a series of questions to the evidence. It's
6 our evidence in chief. I mean, the trouble is the time. I just can't
7 take it any further. So we're left at the disadvantage of not being able
8 to explore with the witness what he actually meant. The cross-examination
9 is, in my submission, not the appropriate time to explore --
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: There's still a re-examination chance.
11 MR. EMMERSON: If I may say so, having observed Colonel Crosland
12 in the witness box and having had the opportunity to meet him myself, I
13 don't imagine he's the sort of person who needs any particular form of
14 questioning to explain precisely what he means.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
16 May we close for today, and thank you -- and please don't talk to
17 anybody about the testimony of today or of what you will give tomorrow,
18 but we will see you tomorrow, again at the same time at the same place.
19 Judge Orie, our Presiding Judge, will be back tomorrow, and I wish you all
20 a good evening.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day of
23 April, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.