Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3364

1 Wednesday, 25 April 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Mr. Zyrapi, the other Defence counsel will now cross-examine --

12 yes, Mr. Emmerson.

13 MR. EMMERSON: We've had an opportunity to discuss the position

14 amongst ourselves, in light of Your Honour's suggestion at the end of the

15 day, and with the acquiescence of all Defence counsel and subject to the

16 limits that Your Honour indicated yesterday, it has been agreed - again,

17 of course, subject to Your Honour's approval - that I should complete the

18 last two topics of cross-examination that I had planned to deal with, and

19 that will leave sufficient time for the other two counsel to complete

20 their cross-examination within the first session.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Consent is there.

22 That means, Mr. Zyrapi, that Mr. Emmerson will put a few more

23 questions to you, and then other Defence counsel for the accused will

24 cross-examine you. In answering these questions, you are still bound by

25 the solemn declaration that you speak the truth, the whole truth, and

Page 3365

1 nothing but the truth, as you gave it at the beginning of your testimony.

2 Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.

3 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson: [Continued]

7 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, in the November 2005 statement, in paragraphs 43 to

8 45, and again in the April 2007 statement paragraph 45, you refer to an

9 incident that took place in late August or early September in which you,

10 together with a delegation from the General Staff, visited the Dukagjini

11 area to intervene in what you described as a dispute with FARK, with

12 Tahir Zemaj, the commander of the forces of FARK, F-A-R-K, and the

13 position is summarized by the Prosecution in a summary that was read at

14 the beginning of your testimony, on the basis that the KLA General Staff

15 sided with Ramush Haradinaj in this dispute.

16 I just want to ask you some further questions about that aspect

17 of your evidence and to assist the Trial Chamber a little, if you can,

18 please, with the political background to the position with FARK and KLA.

19 You told us yesterday, Mr. Zyrapi, that the individuals who

20 described themselves as the General Staff had, you believed, been

21 appointed by the LPK, that is the Popular Movement of the Kosovo. Is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. So that there was, in effect, a political organisation linked to

25 those General Staff individuals. Is that -- is that the position?

Page 3366

1 A. To my recollection, yes.

2 Q. And again, so the Judges understand, there was an entirely

3 separate political organisation in operation at the time known as the

4 Democratic League for Kosovo, the LDK. Is that correct?

5 A. The Democratic League of Kosova existed even in the past and

6 operated as a political party.

7 Q. And the formal president of the LDK was Ibrahim Rugova. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And can you confirm, please, that during the 1990s, there was a

11 split within the LDK between those like Rugova, who were promoting a

12 non-military solution to the conflict with Serbia, and a separate faction

13 under the command of Bujar Bukoshi, who were advocating armed struggle

14 within the -- within the parameters of the LDK?

15 A. I don't know whether it was in the 1990s because I wasn't there,

16 but with respect to the -- to Bujar Bukoshi, he was prime minister of the

17 exile government in the diaspora.

18 Q. Well, that was what I was going to come to. A government in

19 exile was set up outside Kosovo. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. And Bujar Bukoshi was the prime minister or so described of that

22 government. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. And an individual called Ahmet Krasniqi was described as the

25 minister of defence. Is that right?

Page 3367

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I mean, did this government have a democratic mandate or was it

3 simply a group of individuals who called themselves a government?

4 A. It was formed in exile. I don't know when exactly because I

5 wasn't there, but it was elected by the vote.

6 Q. A vote within Kosovo, of people within Kosovo, or a vote of a

7 group of individuals who wanted to form a government? How did it -- how

8 did it come about, as far as you understand, the position?

9 A. I cannot give you explanation for that --

10 Q. Very well.

11 A. -- because I wasn't there present.

12 Q. Very well. But you can confirm that Bujar Bukoshi was in favour

13 of armed intervention in Kosovo?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. And are you aware of the existence of a completely separate fund

16 from the homeland calling fund which you've described, a separate fund

17 known as the 3 per cent fund which was used by Bukoshi and the LDK to

18 form a military organisation?

19 A. Yes, the 3 per cent fund existed at that time.

20 Q. Now, just so that the Judges understand, you have a General Staff

21 of the KLA operating in Tirana; and then a separate military and

22 political structure under the LDK. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And were you aware that in the second half of June, the LDK sent

25 a contingent of soldiers under the name of FARK into Kosovo?

Page 3368

1 A. Yes, as far as I remember, it was a group which entered with

2 Tahir Zemaj.

3 Q. Exactly so. And, again, roughly speaking, 120 soldiers with 25

4 trained officers?

5 A. I don't know the exact number, but I do know that it was a group

6 that came.

7 Q. Now, by that time, by -- I'm going to put a date of the 24th of

8 June to you, by the 24th of June, you were in an operational position,

9 you've told us, within the KLA?

10 A. Yes. On the 24th of June, I was in the operational department

11 but not its leader.

12 Q. No, I understand that. I understand you weren't its leader --

13 its leader. But it was your function to go around on the ground and

14 assess forces, wasn't it?

15 A. Yes, it was.

16 Q. Were you informed in advance that this group were coming into

17 Kosovo at that time before they arrived?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So despite having the responsibility that you did have, nobody

20 had told you that there was a group of 120 officers of the separate

21 political organisation who were going to enter into the Dukagjini region?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I take it that "officers" is a --

23 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- slip of the tongue.


Page 3369

1 Q. 120 officers and 25 soldiers. Let me put the question again.

2 Despite the fact that it was your function to assess military capability

3 on the ground within Kosovo, nobody had informed you that there was a

4 contingent of FARK soldiers about to enter the Dukagjin region?

5 A. No, I was not informed. Then I was informed when they came.

6 Q. Do you know if the General Staff were aware that they were going

7 to come at that time?

8 A. From what I know, no.

9 Q. And so it would follow, presumably, that none of the commanders

10 on the ground would have known that this contingent was coming?

11 A. I don't know. I have no information to that effect.

12 Q. I want then, against that background, please, to ask you to turn

13 to tab 9 in the yellow bundle -- I do apologise, tab 8, first of all --

14 MR. EMMERSON: Which is, for the record, marked for

15 identification as Exhibit P199.

16 Q. -- and just ask you to confirm, please, that that is an order

17 signed by Ramush Haradinaj appointing Tahir Zemaj as commander of the

18 1st Brigade command on the 12th of July of 1998?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So that appointment had obviously been made before you arrived in

21 the Dukagjini area. Is that right?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Were you aware that Ramush Haradinaj had made arrangements for

24 these FARK officers to be positioned at the barracks or a large building

25 in Prapaqan?

Page 3370

1 A. Yes, I was informed that they were stationed in the school of

2 Prapaqan.

3 Q. Did you visit that school?

4 A. Yes, I did, I went there.

5 Q. In the middle of July, when you visited in mid-July?

6 A. I don't remember to have been in July, but I do know that I went

7 there for the second time when I went there in August.

8 Q. Yes, yes. Thank you. Now, these soldiers had been formally

9 incorporated within the KLA in Dukagjin, had they not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But there was a difficulty of which you were aware, I think;

12 namely, that because they believed themselves to be operating under the

13 authority of the government in exile, Tahir Zemaj was reluctant to spread

14 the officers around to the different parts of the Dukagjin region where

15 they were needed. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. He wanted to keep all his 25 militarily trained officers

18 together, rather than sharing them around in the units where they would

19 be most effective. Is that right?

20 A. Yes, that is right.

21 Q. From your point of view, in terms of military effectiveness, it

22 would -- would you agree that it would have been far preferable for the

23 KLA's fighting capability if officers with military experience had been

24 dispersed to the areas of conflict rather than leaving untrained

25 villagers with guns in the absence of a proper -- properly trained

Page 3371

1 military personnel?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. But the problem was that Tahir Zemaj was taking orders from

4 somebody else outside Kosovo. Is that right?

5 A. From what I remember, yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could just turn behind tab 9 for a moment?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, could we just try to find out what

8 actually the basis of the knowledge of the witness is in this respect.

9 Could you tell us, if you say from what you remember, Tahir Zemaj

10 was taking orders from someone else outside Kosovo, how do you know that?

11 MR. EMMERSON: We're just about to, I think, move to the --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I put a question to the witness.

13 Could you tell us?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. On the basis of information I

15 received and when I visited the Dukagjin Zone, the commander told me

16 this, as well as from the members of the staff who were informed that he

17 was receiving orders from outside Kosova; namely, from the government in

18 exile and the late minister of defence.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


22 Q. And I think that that formed part of the discussion that took

23 place when you went there at the end of August/beginning of September to

24 resolve the problem that had arisen. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3372

1 Q. If we can just turn behind tab 9 for a moment, please. This is a

2 document dated the 21st of August, and again, if I can just summarize it

3 and ask you to agree with it.

4 This document records that on the 21st of August, the command for

5 the Dukagjin Plain was re-organised with Tahir Zemaj becoming the overall

6 commander of the operational staff of the plain of Dukagjin, and

7 Ramush Haradinaj being subordinated to the position of deputy commander.

8 Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, from what I see here, and this is what I was informed of.

10 Q. And this was the issue that brought you to the Dukagjin region at

11 the end of August/beginning of September, wasn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. EMMERSON: For the sake of the record, that's Exhibit P252

14 marked for identification.

15 Q. Now, just pausing there for a moment, you were aware, were you --

16 perhaps I can put the question a different way. Were you aware of the

17 reasons why Ramush Haradinaj had yielded the overall command to

18 Tahir Zemaj on the 21st of August? Do you know why it happened?

19 A. From what I know, after we received the information that this was

20 the case, in talks I had with Ramush, Ramush thought that this was the

21 order or the belief of the General Staff, that is, for this change to

22 occur, since we didn't make any decision in the General Staff that this

23 change take place in the Dukagjin Operational Zone.

24 Q. So Ramush told you when you arrived, he had believed it was the

25 will of the General Staff that Tahir Zemaj should take over from him; is

Page 3373

1 that -- is that the position?

2 A. Yes. He told me that he believed that the order came from the

3 General Staff --

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. -- for this change to take place.

6 Q. Thank you. You knew, though, didn't you, that during the first

7 couple of weeks of August, there had been a major Serb offensive in the

8 area of Gllogjan, and that Ramush Haradinaj and his forces had been

9 forced out of Gllogjan and thoroughly beaten militarily at that point?

10 A. Yes. This happened even earlier in Reka e Keqe zone, and that

11 fell under the control of the Serbian forces as a result of their

12 attacks. These attacks started not only in Dukagjin but also in other

13 areas --

14 Q. But -- I understand that. But specifically in Dukagjin, the

15 heartland of Ramush Haradinaj's control in Gllogjan was overrun and fell

16 to the Serbs on about the 12th of August, didn't it?

17 A. I learned of this when we arrived there.

18 Q. Yes. And did you also learn that it was as a result of him being

19 militarily defeated at that point, that Tahir Zemaj had been elected to

20 take over as zone commander?

21 A. During the conversations we had, this was one of the reasons

22 presented. But at that time Tahir Zemaj had received orders to make that

23 change, to take over the command, to prove that he had the capability to

24 lead and continue to be the commander of the Dukagjini Operational Zone.

25 Q. And who had he received those orders from specifically?

Page 3374

1 A. When I talked with this -- about this problem, I was told that he

2 had received orders from the minister of defence of the government in

3 exile.

4 Q. So the alternative political military structure to your own?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You've seen this minute before. It's plain, is it not, that

7 Ramush Haradinaj consented to yield control at that point?

8 A. When we arrived there, that had been done. So he was

9 deputy commander and obeyed all the orders of the then-commander.

10 Q. Thank you. And then I think you arrived on about the 1st of

11 September. Is that correct?

12 A. I'm not certain whether it was the 1st of September or the 3rd of

13 September. I know that it was the end of August and the beginning of

14 September when we arrived in Dukagjin Zone.

15 Q. And it was yourself, Rexhep Selimi, and Hashim Thaqi who arrived

16 in the area. Is that right?

17 A. It was me, Hashim Thaqi, Rexhep Selimi, Lahi Brahimaj, and some

18 others, but I don't remember exactly who.

19 Q. And the purpose of your visit was to challenge the decision that

20 had been taken and to remove Tahir Zemaj. Is that right?

21 A. We went there to discuss this issue and to replace the zone

22 commander since we didn't make any decision for the change that had

23 occurred and for Ramush Haradinaj to continue to be the commander.

24 Q. Yes. I think, though, you've described it at various points as

25 being a visit to intervene in a dispute, but I think you've just agreed,

Page 3375

1 have you not, that by the time you arrived, Ramush Haradinaj was

2 perfectly content to operate as deputy zone commander, working to

3 Tahir Zemaj?

4 A. Yes. He was operating in that capacity, and when I talked with

5 him, he said, I will obey any orders coming to me from the staff. But

6 the staff had made a decision to reinstate him to the command.

7 Q. Just to be clear, the dispute was between the LPK members of the

8 General Staff and the LDK, who were giving orders to Tahir Zemaj. The

9 dispute was between the group that you were with and those who were

10 giving Tahir Zemaj his orders. It was, effectively, a power struggle

11 between those two groups, wasn't it, rather than between the two

12 commanders?

13 A. It was -- as you say, it was a power struggle, not a struggle

14 between two individuals.

15 Q. Your group wanted to have a commander on the ground that

16 controlled the Dukagjin area as part of the KLA, and the government in

17 exile wanted to have their commander controlling the Dukagjin region.

18 That's basically what was happening, wasn't it?

19 A. This was the problem in essence, but also that the commander of a

20 zone could not be replaced while he was acting as commander and doing his

21 duties in the area. Changing commanders at that moment in time was

22 something that was very wrong.

23 Q. But of course, Tahir Zemaj believed he had the authority of the

24 so-called government in exile, didn't he?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 3376

1 Q. And was there a -- during this visit, a direct telephone

2 conversation between Hashim Thaqi, for your side, and Ahmet Krasniqi, the

3 minister of defence of this government in exile? Was there a direct

4 contact between the two?

5 A. As far as I remember, yes, there was a telephone conversation,

6 but I don't know what they talked about.

7 Q. Essentially, they were having a row, weren't they, about who was

8 in charge and who had legitimacy?

9 A. Of course, it was a power struggle.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zyrapi, your first answer was that you didn't

11 know what they were talking about, and then Mr. Emmerson asked you:

12 "Essentially, they were having a row, weren't they?" And then you said:

13 "Of course, it was a power struggle."

14 Now, did you hear the content or part of the content of the

15 conversation, or is this an inference and conclusion you've drawn from

16 that situation?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear the conversation

18 because I was not close to the person who was conducting the

19 conversation. This is just my assumption.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please be very careful in telling us

21 exactly what are assumptions and what is your knowledge of the facts.

22 And, Mr. Emmerson --


24 JUDGE ORIE: -- would you please take care that if a witness

25 says, I didn't hear what they said, and then you tell him what it most

Page 3377

1 likely would have been, that you're more or less soliciting assumptions

2 which would not assist the Chamber.

3 MR. EMMERSON: If I can just ask one further question.

4 Q. Did you discuss with Hashim Thaqi what had taken place after he

5 came off the telephone?

6 A. No, I didn't, because there were operations going on in the area

7 of Dukagjin. There were other things we had in our minds, so we didn't

8 discuss this.

9 Q. But in the end a decision was taken, was it not, by those present

10 to reverse the change that had been made on the 21st of August. Is that

11 right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And if we just look behind tab 11, which is Exhibit P259 marked

14 for identification, the then-commander Tahir Zemaj issued on the 3rd of

15 September an information to all local staffs referring to a meeting of

16 some persons from the KLA General Staff on the 2nd of September which had

17 rejected the earlier decision. And he, therefore, informed local staffs

18 that the previous command structure would be put back in place, that is

19 to say with Ramush as the overall commander, Ramush Haradinaj as the

20 overall commander, but with Tahir Zemaj as deputy zone commander. Is

21 that -- is that the position?

22 A. Yes. We issued the order to reinstate Ramush Haradinaj to the

23 post of the commander.

24 Q. Yes --

25 A. I had not seen this document before. This is the first time I'm

Page 3378

1 laying eyes on it.

2 Q. Thank you. Two final questions, if I may, and very briefly. In

3 the statement you made and the evidence that you gave in the Limaj case,

4 you referred to a document called "The Provisional Regulations For the

5 Organisation of the Army's Internal Life." Do you remember that

6 document?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. There seems to be -- there seems to be some confusion about when

9 it was produced. Can I ask you to confirm the evidence that you gave in

10 the Milutinovic case, that that document was first produced at the end of

11 1998?

12 A. The regulation of the General Staff existed earlier, but in 1998

13 it was completed and expanded, as far as I remember, but it did exist as

14 a rule book before.

15 Q. Just to be clear, Mr. Zyrapi, do be careful with your evidence on

16 this. The document I am referring to is the document: "Provisional

17 Regulations For the Organisation of the Army's Internal Life."

18 Now, you gave evidence in the Milutinovic case, page 5945,

19 line 15, that that document was prepared at the end of 1998, and that it

20 was a first draft at that stage?

21 A. Yes, now I remember this document. This was a provisional

22 document that organised the life of the army, yes, and it was compiled by

23 the end of 1998, and then it was sent to the units on the ground.

24 Q. And that was after you became Chief of Staff. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3379

1 Q. Thank you. And finally this: There is reference in one of your

2 statements, November 2005, paragraph 37, to reports of people being

3 killed who were suspected collaborators. I'd like to ask you to confirm,

4 please, that you are not aware of any specific instance involving the

5 killing of suspected collaborators in the Dukagjin region in the summer

6 of 1998, that is to say up until the end of September 1998?

7 A. In my statement that I gave in November, I have explained clearly

8 that I heard through the media and the communiques about such things, but

9 I never saw, myself, any such case. As regards the Dukagjin Zone, I

10 never heard of any such cases while I visited, and I did not see anything

11 like that.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Guy-Smith, I'd like to put one clarifying

14 question to the witness in relation to his last answer.

15 You said you have explained clearly that you heard through the

16 media about such things, and then you said but you never saw any such

17 case. And as regards the Dukagjin Zone, you never heard of any such case

18 while you visited.

19 Could you tell us some specifics about some of these cases in the

20 other zones, not in the Dukagjin Zone?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said earlier and as I've

22 explained in my statement, I heard about such cases, but even when I

23 visited other zones I didn't see any myself, I mean, any cases of

24 killings. It's just something I heard through the media mainly. But

25 keeping in mind that I was on the move all the time and the time

Page 3380

1 restrictions I have -- I had.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were the media specific about what had

3 happened where?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, no, there

5 were no details. The electronic media and the Albanian satellite

6 television presented such cases, such instances. I was following --

7 trying to follow the media at the time.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, what makes you believe that this happened in

9 other zones but not in the Dukagjin Zone?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because the media mentioned names

11 of places or territories where this had allegedly happened, but, as I

12 said, in the areas I visited, I never encountered such instances.

13 JUDGE ORIE: No. I do understand. But did the media never refer

14 to any event or any place which would be within the Dukagjin Zone?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't remember, and even

16 during my visits and my tours, I don't remember ever hearing such a

17 thing.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

19 Mr. Guy-Smith.

20 You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

22 Q. I'd like to return for a moment to your -- your time in Tirana

23 when, I believe, you told us that you were living in an apartment with

24 Naim Maloku. Apart from yourself and Naim Maloku, was anybody else

25 living in that apartment?

Page 3381

1 A. Yes, I think I said earlier that it was me, Naim, Agim Cela,

2 Afrim Basha, as far as I remember, and several others.

3 Q. And -- and would it be fair to say that the apartment that you

4 were living in was one of the weigh stations or stopping places for

5 people to come who were interested in volunteering to fight in Kosovo?

6 A. No. This apartment was a waiting station maybe for me and a

7 couple of others but not in general. It was not considered as a basis

8 for other people to stop there before they went to Kosovo.

9 Q. During the time, you were living in Tirana with Naim Maloku and

10 Afrim Basha. Do you recall meeting Naim Hazeri, Bekim Shyti, or

11 Mensur Kosumi at the apartment?

12 A. Mensur Kosumi was a member of the group that I was part of. This

13 Mr. Shyti, I think I've seen him but not in the apartment. He was a

14 member of one of the groups that was trained in Albania at the time.

15 Q. And if I understand your testimony correctly, you do not remember

16 meeting Idriz Balaj at the apartment in Tirana, but he told you when you

17 met him in Irzniq that the two of you had met in Tirana. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. I also said this in my statement that it is possible that we met

20 because many people followed that route, and I've met so many people in

21 Tirana that I don't remember all of them. But it is possible that we

22 met.

23 Q. The first time that you do recall meeting Idriz Balaj was in

24 Irzniq on your July visit; right?

25 A. As I said, I remember that I saw him for the first time -- or to

Page 3382

1 my recollection, I saw him for the first time when I went to Dukagjin in

2 July.

3 Q. And that was a day when you also met a gentleman who I believe

4 his name is Shemsedin Qeku, who was another commander in Irzniq. Is that

5 true?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And as a matter of fact, you had an opportunity to speak with

8 Shemsedin Qeku in your capacity as being involved in the operational

9 department in attempting to assess the forces that were involved in the

10 area; correct?

11 A. Yes. I met Shemsedin and we talked about those issues, but it

12 was a very brief meeting, and I considered him a colleague because he

13 also was a former officer in the Yugoslav Army.

14 Q. He was somebody who you had -- you had actually worked with

15 before, isn't that correct, when you were both in the JNA?

16 A. I did not work together with him in the same unit, but both of us

17 served in the JNA.

18 Q. I see. Now, after you spoke with -- with Mr. Qeku, you learned

19 that Idriz Balaj was involved with a rapid intervention unit; right?

20 That's what you've told us and that's, in fact, what happened?

21 A. Yes, that's correct, as far as I remember at that time was --

22 when I was touring, I also visited Idriz Balaj and the rapid intervention

23 unit.

24 Q. While you were with Idriz Balaj and you were talking with him,

25 you learned, among other things, learned that he was called Toger or

Page 3383

1 Togeri; correct?

2 A. Yes, but also the zone commander told me this earlier.

3 Q. Did you also learn during the time that you were speaking with

4 him about the efforts that the unit had engaged in, in such places as

5 Voksh, Sllup, Drenovac, when they were fighting and had operated as a

6 front line rapid intervention unit?

7 A. I don't remember whether we talked about this. As I said, I was

8 there for a very brief period of time. It could have been that they

9 mentioned such a thing, but I can't remember.

10 Q. What you did learn when you were introduced to him is that his

11 efforts were such that he was considered by at least Ramush and I also

12 believe, if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Qeku to be a brave and courageous man

13 who was willing to fight for the freedom of his country. Is that a fair

14 statement?

15 A. Yes. When Ramush introduced him to me, he said that he is the

16 leader of the rapid intervention group or unit, and that he had

17 experience, he had taken part in the war in Croatia, and he was a brave

18 person.

19 Q. Did you -- did you have a chance to speak with -- with Toger

20 concerning the type of training that he was giving to the -- to the

21 soldiers who were fighting in his particular unit, so you could assess

22 how best they might be deployed and could give some advice in that

23 regard?

24 A. I can't remember all the details of the conversations we had.

25 Q. And could you tell us whether you made a determination precisely

Page 3384

1 what kind of weaponry that unit had?

2 A. I don't remember. I just remember that the unit had been formed,

3 it was there, and they had some weaponry.

4 Q. Did you -- did you learn in your conversations with your former

5 colleague, Commander Qeku, what the relationship was between

6 Commander Qeku and Toger in terms of how matters were to be attended,

7 specifically in Irzniq and in the surrounding areas?

8 A. No, I don't remember ever speaking about this with him.

9 Q. During your time in Kosovo, did you hear of a gentleman by the

10 name of Fadil Nimani?

11 A. No, I don't remember the name.

12 Q. Well, if you haven't -- when you say you don't remember the name,

13 if I were to suggest to you that Fadil Nimani was the gentleman who was

14 responsible for forming the rapid intervention unit in the Dukagjin Zone,

15 would that be of assistance in you remembering the name?

16 A. No, no, I don't remember.

17 Q. Apart from the -- the one time that you had occasion to -- to

18 meet, which I -- I gather was for, as you've told us, a very brief period

19 of time in your visit to Irzniq, did you have a chance to ever liaise

20 with Toger again and -- and discuss military matters with regard to how

21 to deploy units or where best to -- to focus efforts in terms of the

22 fights?

23 A. I don't remember speaking to him again. I talked to him when I

24 was in -- there in July. I don't remember seeing him in August when I

25 went back.

Page 3385

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. I'm grateful.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

3 Mr. Harvey.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I went short.


6 Mr. Harvey.

7 MR. HARVEY: [Microphone not activated].

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Harvey.

9 MR. HARVEY: Start out with apologising twice. I've got a

10 terrible cold, and I will try not to be too indistinct to follow.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:

12 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, I represent Lahi Brahimaj, with whom you worked as a

13 member of the General Staff in central Kosovo in the summer of 1998. I'd

14 like to ask you a few points in relation to the testimony you've given so

15 far. As I understand it, you say in mid-July you visited Dukagjin as

16 part of your responsibility for evaluating KLA positions, strengths, and

17 weaknesses in general. Is that correct?

18 A. When I went there in mid-July 1998, I went there because there

19 was also a meeting of the General Staff with Dukagjin Operational Zone,

20 but also to get acquainted with the units and the positions and what the

21 situation was.

22 Q. Well, it may be that there is a slight difference of recollection

23 between yourself and Mr. Brahimaj; it may be that this isn't terribly

24 important, but I'd like to suggest, sir, for your consideration that

25 there was not a General Staff meeting in the Dukagjin Zone at that stage,

Page 3386

1 and that you are confusing the mid-July meeting with the people who were

2 present at the early September meeting. Do you think you may be mistaken

3 about that one, sir?

4 A. I don't think I am mistaken. I'm very sure that I went there

5 with General Staff members for the meeting in mid-July.

6 Q. Very well. Certainly, it is agreed by Mr. Brahimaj that you came

7 back to Jabllanice with transportation provided by Ramush Haradinaj in

8 order to meet up with Lahi Brahimaj, who had an order from the

9 General Staff that you should both proceed to Rahovec. That is agreed.

10 And that would have been at around the time of the major Serb offensive

11 that began approximately 18th to 19th of July, 1998?

12 A. Yes, that's correct. From Dukagjin, from Gllogjan I went to

13 Jablanica. Lahi was waiting for me there, and he conveyed the order of

14 the General Staff to me, that we both needed to go to Rahovec.

15 Q. And I think it's fair to say that you met him at his house and

16 left almost immediately from there to Rahovec?

17 A. Yes, at his house, that's where we met, and from there we went

18 straight to Rahovec.

19 Q. And now on the second occasion when you were in Jabllanice - let

20 me just pause there. Am I right in saying there were only two occasions

21 when you were in Jabllanice: one in the mid-July and one at the very

22 beginning of September. Is that correct?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

24 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not sure the witness's evidence, so far at

25 least, has been that he visited Jablanica at the time of the -- what I

Page 3387

1 might call the FARK visit at the end of August/beginning of September,

2 but rather that he visited Prapaqan.


4 Q. Well, let me ask you about the early September visit. Do you

5 recall at any stage in earlier September being in Jabllanice?

6 A. Yes, I was in Jabllanice, too --

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. -- because that was the way we had to pass through to go to the

9 General Staff.

10 Q. Exactly. And on the way back, in fact, did you pass back through

11 Jabllanice as well?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you visit the KLA headquarters in Jabllanice?

14 A. Yes, we visited the command post in Jabllanice.

15 Q. And at any time when you were in the KLA command post, were you

16 aware of anybody being detained there? I mean detained against their

17 will?

18 A. During my presence there, I didn't learn anything. I didn't hear

19 or see anyone being detained there.

20 Q. Could you just describe for us what kind of a facility the KLA

21 command post in Jabllanice was; in other words, approximately how many

22 buildings, how many soldiers did you see? If you remember, sir, it's a

23 long time ago.

24 A. I remember that the command post was placed in a private home.

25 It was actually the home of Lahi Brahimaj. For the second time I visited

Page 3388

1 it, I don't remember -- it was in a private home, but as to the number of

2 soldiers, I can't give you an estimate. But it was the command there,

3 the unit that guarded the command post in positions, in kind of defence

4 positions. As to how many they were, this I can't tell you.

5 Q. May I suggest, sir, that you may be mistaken in saying that it

6 was the home of Lahi Brahimaj; in fact, the home -- you visited the home

7 of his cousin Ibrahim Brahimaj. Do you think that may be the correct

8 picture, in fact?

9 A. We talked about July. From what I know, I visited the command

10 post, which was placed in Lahi Brahimaj's home. During the second visit,

11 I can't tell you whose house it was; I didn't know that.

12 Q. Very well. How much time did you spend actually in the command

13 post in July?

14 A. In July, the first day we arrived there, we held a meeting

15 between the General Staff and the zone commander. I visited the units

16 there until the evening. Then in the evening, I continued my way to

17 Gllogjan, so I would say a day.

18 Q. So when you say you visited the units there, what do you mean by

19 the units? Was there a sort of barracks place there?

20 A. I didn't go to the barracks, there wasn't one. I went to the

21 front line where the soldiers had taken up positions of defence. This is

22 what I visited.

23 Q. Very well. Just one minor matter in relation to Jabllanice. You

24 had mentioned the name Driton Zeneli as having been, to your

25 recollection, commander at Jabllanice at one point. Do you recall that?

Page 3389

1 A. I do, because together with him, we visited some of the front

2 line positions.

3 Q. I want to suggest to you, sir, that he was indeed commander for a

4 brief period between the Serb offensives of August and September of 1998

5 and, in fact, that he was killed in the front line in his position as

6 commander of Jabllanice in the Serb offensive in September of 1998. Does

7 that accord with your recollection?

8 A. I don't remember when he was killed, but I was testifying about

9 my visit to the front line, during which he was present, too.

10 Q. And do you think that that would have been in the period in

11 September, beginning of September?

12 A. I don't recall accurately. I already stated that.

13 Q. That's very fair. Then I'd like to move to some more general

14 questions about the role of the General Staff and its evolution. Prior

15 to May 28th when you led the group that came into Kosovo, most of the

16 General Staff were located outside Kosovo; correct?

17 A. When I entered Kosova, on the 28th of May, with me were also some

18 other members when we entered. As I said, Hashim Thaqi, Kadri Veseli,

19 Adem Grabovci, some others who were in Tirana -- yes, a large number of

20 them was in Tirana.

21 Q. In fact, up until then, the only members of the General Staff who

22 were consistently inside Kosovo were Rexhep Selimi, Sokol Bashota, and

23 Lahi Brahimaj. Is that correct?

24 A. I don't know exactly who were inside, but it was later on that I

25 learned that it was Rexhep Selimi and Sokol Bashota who stayed in Kosova

Page 3390

1 during the time you are putting it to me.

2 Q. You are aware, I think, that Lahi Brahimaj was also somebody who

3 had not left Kosovo, but he had stayed in the country the entire time.

4 Is that correct?

5 A. I don't know about him, what he did before. I already explained

6 to you when I met him for the first time; from that moment onwards, I had

7 contacts with him, and I do know that he didn't leave Kosova.

8 Q. Right. Does it come to this, that before the meeting of the 23rd

9 of June that Mr. Emmerson took you to yesterday, the minutes of that

10 meeting in the Dukagjin Zone on the 23rd of June, it would appear that up

11 until that date there was no unified command of the Dukagjin area?

12 A. I don't know what it was like before, but I was informed that

13 there wasn't a general unified command --

14 Q. That was --

15 A. -- but I wasn't there, as I told you before that time.

16 Q. And was that also a similar situation to that going on in

17 Drenica, there wasn't a unified command structure in Drenice?

18 A. In Drenice -- in Drenice the efforts had already started to unify

19 the command and to ensure a better structuring of the army and the

20 command, but I don't know about the Dukagjin Zone.

21 Q. And those were the two zones that were best organised; they were

22 the most active zones at least, Dukagjin and Drenica, up until that point

23 when you and your comrades entered Kosovo on the 28th of May?

24 A. As I have already stated in my November statement, I said that

25 both zones were more active in this period until we entered Kosova

Page 3391

1 -- that is, during summer. And they had better -- they were better

2 organised, were more active compared to other zones which developed later

3 than them. Like, for example, Pashtrik Zone, Llap, Shala, Nerodime,

4 Karadak Zones.

5 Q. Exactly. The point is that up until the end of May, there was no

6 real attempt to pull everything together and that was your mission when

7 you, Hashim Thaqi, and your other comrades entered Kosova at the end of

8 May; correct?

9 A. I don't know what efforts were made because I cannot testify to a

10 period I was not there, and I don't know what was done.

11 Q. Yes, but you were in the General Staff or working, at least, with

12 General Staff members outside the country. What did you understand the

13 reason to be for going into the country? Wasn't it so that you could

14 organise things that had so far not been sufficiently organised and that

15 could only be done from within the country?

16 A. Yes. My aim was to help them in organisation and improvement of

17 the structure of the KLA. That was my task and that was a task of every

18 officer or superior man in command.

19 Q. And as Mr. Emmerson -- as you agreed with him yesterday, you were

20 the only professional soldier in the entire group at that time; correct?

21 A. No. In the group with which I entered Kosova, I wasn't the only

22 professional, because there was Agim Cela, who was also a former JNA army

23 officer; Agashi, also he was a former army officer; Kasapi also another

24 one; Mahir Hasani also a former officer of the JNA and others.

25 Q. I'm sorry. I put my question too broadly. But you were the only

Page 3392

1 member -- the only person who was going to go on to the General Staff as

2 a professional soldier and help to reorganise the General Staff and the

3 entire structure of the KLA. That was your primary function, wasn't it,

4 sir?

5 A. My task wasn't properly -- exactly defined when I was going to

6 Kosova. That happened when I went to the General Staff, which was in

7 Likofc. It was there that we were given the tasks and the

8 responsibilities. It was there that I was appointed to work in the

9 operational department, and Agim Cela, also along with me. But the

10 others didn't have that kind of preparation.

11 Q. Right. Organising the General Staff at headquarters was a major

12 task, wasn't it?

13 A. Yes, it was a major task, but the task applied also to the units

14 below the general command.

15 Q. Exactly.

16 A. It was the same importance.

17 Q. Exactly. For instance, you as a professional soldier -- you

18 would differentiate between a command officer and a staff officer;

19 correct?

20 A. In what respect do you mean I would differentiate between them.

21 Q. That they have different areas of responsibilities. They perform

22 different functions within a military structure?

23 A. Yes, they performed different tasks; that is, a commander has

24 different tasks from a General Staff member.

25 Q. And if you're a commander of a zone, that isn't a part-time job,

Page 3393

1 is it? You can't be part-time commander, part-time staff officer on the

2 General Staff? Sorry, let me rephrase that. You can't be part-time zone

3 commander and part-time General Staff officer, can you?

4 A. No, you cannot --

5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I haven't got any

6 objection to these questions at all, but I think it would be -- in fact

7 essential that you -- we know if the witness is speaking about

8 theoretical situations or matters in a highly organised army or whether

9 he's talking about the situation that applied in the situation he found

10 himself in 1998. It's not clear to me.

11 MR. HARVEY: I think that's a perfectly reasonable proposal, and

12 I intended to go in that direction with the witness in any event. So

13 can --

14 JUDGE ORIE: You rather explore what he knows about the situation

15 at the time, rather than whether something is possible or not possible.

16 MR. HARVEY: Yes, indeed.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


19 Q. I was approaching it from the standpoint of the fact that you as

20 a professional soldier would organise things in one way. When you

21 arrived, however, in the end of May/beginning of June 1998, did you find

22 that people had organised themselves in a way that you approved of?

23 A. I saw that the organisation -- their organisation wasn't the

24 proper one in terms of military organisation or military formations in

25 order to wage the war, as was the purpose or the goal of the KLA at the

Page 3394

1 time.

2 Q. Now, we have heard, to be quite specific about this, you were

3 taken yesterday by Mr. Emmerson to the document in which Lahi Brahimaj

4 was appointed as deputy commander of the Dukagjin Zone. You recall that?

5 A. Yes, I recall that.

6 Q. At that time, of course, Lahi Brahimaj was a serving member of

7 the General Staff; correct?

8 A. For the time when I was informed of the situation, when I was

9 given the task of director, I saw Lahi, and he was introduced to me as

10 director of the finance department in the General Staff.

11 Q. All right. At the time you were given your responsibilities, he

12 was already there serving as director of finances; correct?

13 A. Yes, correct, this is what I was told.

14 Q. You didn't know how long he'd been in that position, but he was

15 certainly already in that position when you arrived?

16 A. Yes. I don't know when exactly he was given that responsibility,

17 but I found him there when I went to the General Staff.

18 Q. And to you, as a military man, it was a nonsense to suggest that

19 Lahi Brahimaj could at the same time be director of finances on the

20 General Staff and deputy commander of the Dukagjin Zone. Am I correct?

21 A. In the military aspect, you are right, it doesn't make sense.

22 Q. And as far as you're aware, he never actually functioned as a

23 deputy commander in the Dukagjin Zone, did he?

24 A. I don't know about the time prior to my arrival, I don't know

25 what duty he had, whether he was deputy commander. I have no knowledge

Page 3395

1 about that.

2 Q. I'm talking about the period between the 23rd of June, 1998, when

3 we saw that order yesterday in which he was elected to that function.

4 You were already there in Kosovo, weren't you, by the 23rd of June?

5 A. Yes, I was in Kosova, but I don't know whether he was in that

6 task or not.

7 Q. You never -- you were never aware of him saying, Bislim, sorry,

8 I've got to go to Jablanica tomorrow because I'm deputy commander of the

9 zone. There was never any conversation of that sort took place with you?

10 A. To my recollection, no, and it was very short period since I got

11 over my duty and went to the Dukagjini Zone.

12 Q. Right. I'd like to ask you a little about conditions in Drenica

13 in which you in -- that's the General Staff had to operate. First of

14 all, when you entered Kosovo on the 28th of May leading a group of some

15 80 men, it took you about a week to get to Likofc; correct?

16 A. This one week comprises my entry to Kosova, and my arrival in

17 Drenica and Likofc.

18 MR. HARVEY: While I'm asking the next couple of questions, if we

19 could have Defence Exhibit D300-0003 on the screens, that would be

20 helpful.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Has it -- has it been assigned an exhibit number?

22 MR. HARVEY: To my knowledge, no, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, that would be ...?

24 MR. HARVEY: So it's document -- document number, I should have

25 said, not exhibit number.

Page 3396

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number D37,

2 marked for identification.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

4 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

5 While we're waiting, this is a map of Drenica zone. Oh, there it

6 is. I'll be coming to that in a moment with you.

7 Q. When you were on your way from Albania to Likofc, why did it take

8 you so long?

9 A. As I have explained in my statements, when we entered Kosova on

10 the 28th of May from Damjan, we went to Reskoc village of Rahovec

11 commune. We stayed there for three or four days, I'm not sure, but then

12 we went on towards Drenice. So it took us about a week until we arrived

13 in Drenice.

14 Q. And on the way, were you dropping off men and munitions and

15 rifles as you passed through?

16 A. When we arrived in Drenoc, yes, we dropped off some munitions.

17 It was kind of military depot there because each of us had, apart from

18 its personal arms, an extra set of weapons in order to be able to arm

19 other members of the KLA.

20 Q. And when you arrived in Likofc, did you go to the house of a

21 person who was known by the nickname of Raketi or Rocket?

22 A. Yes, I remember his house. I visited it, yes.

23 Q. And I think you had some five or six of your group still with you

24 when you arrived at that house, including, of course, Hashim Thaqi, who

25 was related to Raketi?

Page 3397

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And was that house in Likofc one of the safe houses, if I can use

3 that term, that were periodically used by members of the General Staff to

4 spend the night as they were going about their duties?

5 A. Yes, it was.

6 Q. Do you have on the screen in front of you, sir, the map of

7 Drenica?

8 A. Yes, part of Drenice.

9 Q. Yes, part of Drenica, yes, indeed. And we can see in -- towards

10 the north-east -- sorry, north-west - I always have this problem -

11 north-west of -- corner of the map, Likofc is shown with an orange spot.

12 Do you see that? It's now up at the top of your screen on the left?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 MR. HARVEY: I should explain for all present that the -- this is

15 a map from the Limaj case, hence it's -- centres on Llapushnik. That's

16 the only reason that we see the marking in the centre. It's not relevant

17 for the purposes of this case, I just thought it would be helpful for

18 everyone to get a little bit of an orientation of Drenica since we

19 haven't previously looked at the area at all.

20 Q. May I just ask you, on your way to Likofc, did you pass through

21 Jablanica? Was that one of your stopping-off points?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When you arrived at Raketi's house in Likofc, do you remember

24 that Lahi Brahimaj was, in fact, there when you came?

25 A. I don't remember.

Page 3398

1 Q. So your first recollection of meeting him was when you were

2 working together in the General Staff?

3 A. From what I remember, yes. When I was given the task of director

4 of the operational department.

5 Q. And where physically was that? Is it somewhere that you can see

6 on the map now?

7 A. Yes, this is Berisha Mountains.

8 Q. Well, we can see with a red triangle the word "Berisha"; that is

9 the village of Berisha. Can you describe for us where the

10 Berisha Mountains are in relation to the village of Berisha?

11 A. Yes. The Berisha Mountains include this part from the road that

12 goes to Prishtine-Peje and includes all this area: Berisha, Klecke, up

13 to the road in the direction of Prishtine-Prizren. This is the territory

14 that we refer to as the Berisha Mountains; whereas, Berishe village is a

15 village situated in the Berisha Mountains.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, was the General Staff -- and again, I think

17 we -- Mr. Emmerson asked you some questions about this yesterday. This

18 term is -- is potentially quite misleading. At times, you refer to it as

19 the central staff. Is that right?

20 A. You think in my testimony yesterday?

21 Q. No, I'm actually thinking back to your testimony in the Limaj

22 case.

23 MR. HARVEY: If anybody wishes to follow it in the transcript,

24 it's page 600 -- 6822.

25 Q. If I could just read briefly from that. You said in answer to a

Page 3399

1 question from counsel for Mr. Limaj, you said: "A traditional army

2 organised in the tradition" -- I'm sorry. Let me put the question first:

3 "Can you just describe mainly what the differences were between a

4 regular, traditional army and its organisation, and what you found with

5 the KLA in Kosovo?"

6 Your answer: "A traditional army organised in a traditional way,

7 its organisation begins with professional training of leaders from lower

8 ranks, going up to higher ranks, and the soldiers also in those

9 respective units are prepared starting from squads and going up to the

10 level of brigade. An army which has a command with all professional

11 military characteristics required for a traditional army has trained and

12 schooled people militarily. However, the KLA was an army based on

13 self-organisation. At that time, it had the central staff, as it was

14 called at that time. It was a small staff, not professional one, not

15 prepared for proper command."

16 Now, do you recall making that statement in the Limaj case?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Can you explain, sir, what you mean by a central staff as

19 being -- as differentiated from a proper one?

20 MR. EMMERSON: Just before the witness answers.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

22 MR. EMMERSON: I do apologise. An urgent matter has come up that

23 I need to attend to urgently. Would Your Honour excuse me for just a few

24 moments?


Page 3400

1 MR. EMMERSON: No disrespect intended.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please -- would you repeat the question.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No need to repeat the question

4 because I heard it. It is true that there was a central staff earlier.

5 I don't know when it was formed. This was before I arrived and learned

6 about the KLA. So the wording used at the time was the central staff,

7 and then it changed into General Staff with the development of the staff

8 itself, and that's why there is this formulation of this term used in the

9 Limaj trial.


11 Q. And was it as a result of the re-organisation -- the

12 restructuring that you helped to propose that it changed from

13 central staff to General Staff?

14 A. There was a need, yes, to change at the time, and it was also my

15 initiative.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.


18 MR. DI FAZIO: This passage of evidence may lead to some

19 confusion, I suspect. The witness said: "It was true there was a

20 central staff earlier, I don't know when it was formed." And then he

21 said: "This was before I arrived and learned about the KLA."

22 So it's not clear to me as to whether he's referring to the

23 terminology "central staff" before he went into Kosovo or before he went

24 into Albania or before he left wherever he was living to go to Albania.


Page 3401

1 MR. HARVEY: I'm happy to explore that.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I think we need to clarify that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, I'm looking at the clock and

4 despite the assurances that the Chamber has received that we would finish

5 during the first session, Mr. Harvey, how much time -- I'm not blaming

6 you, you're usually not consuming too much time. But at the same time,

7 Mr. Emmerson said he arranged with all of you to stay within the limits,

8 but that he could have half an hour more. Then, of course, the Chamber

9 expects nothing else than that this would be effective. And again, I'm

10 not blaming you, but time pressure is building up again.

11 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour --

12 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you still need?

13 MR. HARVEY: I would think probably no more than ten minutes,

14 maybe less.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I then suggest that we do not take the break now, as

16 usually, that you finish and you're encouraged to see whether seven or

17 eight minutes would do. Please proceed.

18 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, could you just perhaps, please, clarify for us your

20 last answer. You referred to when you first learned about the central

21 staff. You said that: "This was before I arrived and learned about the

22 KLA." Before you arrived where, sir?

23 A. Yes, I will explain. Before I entered Kosova and joined the KLA,

24 and when I entered Kosovo for some time it was still called the central

25 staff. When I mentioned the term earlier, I was referring to 1995 and

Page 3402

1 1996 when the KLA existed.

2 Q. And was the term "central staff" used to differentiate those who

3 stayed in the centre, those who stayed inside Kosovo from those outside

4 Kosovo? Was that perhaps the reason for the different nomenclature?

5 A. The term was used as central staff, even outside Kosovo, but I

6 heard of it even when I was in Kosovo.

7 Q. Coming back then, sir, to the re-organisation, the restructuring

8 of the General Staff, that took place at the end of July/beginning of

9 August or it began, should I say?

10 A. No. I couldn't say that the re-organisation started then,

11 because I joined the General Staff in July, but the re-organisation and

12 the completion started later. When I became Chief of Staff, that's when

13 proper organisation started and expansion as well.

14 Q. That wasn't until November of 1998, if I recall correctly?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. Just going back to our map for a moment, you've indicated I think

17 that the General Staff met at a number of locations. I think you've

18 mentioned Klecke. Divjak, is that another place where the staff met?

19 A. Yes, we did meet in Divjak, especially from November onwards.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...?

21 A. Yes, in Berisha as well.

22 Q. And Novo Sello?

23 A. Yes, in Novo Sello.

24 Q. So, was there -- it sounds from that as if there was never one

25 particular house or location where you would routinely meet?

Page 3403

1 A. If we're talking about the period from June to November, the

2 staff moved a lot, changed a lot of places, because of security

3 considerations, not only in the Berisha Mountains but also in other

4 areas.

5 Q. Thank you for that. And during that period - and I'm talking

6 specifically the beginning of June to the end of September - did you see

7 Lahi Brahimaj on a regular basis; and if so, what would you mean by

8 "regular"? Weekly? Daily? Monthly?

9 A. Again, speaking about the period from July to September, I've --

10 I met Lahi a couple of times. But, as I said, I was always on the move.

11 I went to areas where fighting was occurring. I can't say that I saw him

12 every day or every week, but maybe -- maybe once a week or once a month.

13 I can't tell you how often we met each other. It's -- the dynamics of

14 the operations and the fightings was so intense that I had to move and

15 help the zone commanders to organise their defence. So I am not sure how

16 often I met him, once a week or once a month.

17 Q. And as far as meetings of the General Staff were concerned, was

18 it a question of one or two people meeting from time to time as and when

19 they could, or was there a regular routine that the first Monday of every

20 month everybody had to meet together in one particular place?

21 A. As I said, because of the dynamics of the fightings and so on, we

22 could not meet every week. It was when we had the opportunity to meet

23 together with the General Staff to exchange ideas and to take decisions.

24 Q. Very good.

25 MR. HARVEY: I've no further questions.

Page 3404

1 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Zyrapi.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

3 Mr. Zyrapi, we'll have a break, and I'll first ask Madam Usher to

4 escort you out of the courtroom because I'd like to raise one other

5 matter briefly.

6 Have the parties received, either electronically or in hard copy,

7 the list prepared by the registrar where numbers are assigned to, may I

8 say, the two binders --

9 [The witness stands down]

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- with a total of 140 documents.

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: We have.


13 May I ask Madam Registrar, what exactly is the basis for the

14 list? Have you used the material given to you by the Prosecution?


16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the basis for it. Yes.

17 Then could I ask the parties -- perhaps look at it and see

18 whether we have confusion again.

19 Mr. Di Fazio, if you would look at tab 138, that's the third from

20 the bottom on the list of Madam Registrar. Could you please, since she

21 worked on the basis of your information, that now is P259, isn't it? Do

22 I identify U0001869, or do I find another document?

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar and legal officer confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the registry had some

25 difficulties, and for that reason the document you provided to us -- to

Page 3405

1 us at least in the binder which was U0014586, at least the English

2 translation, and has now been replaced by U0001869. And that's the

3 document Mr. Emmerson used. So therefore we see already shifting from

4 one document -- luckily, the documents are almost the same. It's mainly

5 the handwriting on the document that's different.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Sometimes with these exhibits, if Your Honours

7 please, you have the same document that appears but it's identical but

8 with annotations, a number might be added or it might have been signed by

9 someone else.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, if we have numbers on lists, of course

11 now it has been changed. I do understand for good reasons, but, of

12 course, the Chamber is not informed about it. We see in 138, we see a

13 document which is not exactly the same as we find under tab 11, as used

14 by Mr. Emmerson. Now, again here it's not dramatic because the

15 content -- the typed content is the same. Nevertheless, it could easily

16 create confusion. So therefore, now we understand that what we find

17 under tab 138 is not the document which has been assigned a number P259,

18 and that P259 is rather the document Mr. Emmerson used under tab 11.

19 Of course, the Chamber would like to hear soon from the parties

20 where there are problems in relation to admission, and since we have now

21 numbers marked for identification, I think it's easier to work on the

22 basis of the list provided to us by Madam Registrar.

23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. We've prepared a schedule which we're in a

24 position to provide to Mr. Di Fazio over the break. He may not be in a

25 position to assimilate it immediately. Essentially, the principles upon

Page 3406

1 which objection is taken are pretty plain. It's where the witness has

2 been unable to identify a document or unable to identify a signature.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. We will then hear from you at a later

4 stage, and you'll further prepare for a efficient discussion on admission

5 of evidence.

6 MR. EMMERSON: Can I just indicate --


8 MR. EMMERSON: -- there may be a brief procedural matter to deal

9 with immediately before the evidence of the next witness and pertaining

10 to it. It will be short. I'll try to resolve it with Mr. Kearney in the

11 break, but I'm just giving Your Honours an indication that there may be a

12 very short procedural matter to raise.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then have a break until quarter past

14 11.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.47 a.m.

16 [The witness takes the stand]

17 --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

21 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, I just want to ask you some questions arising from

22 your testimony this morning. You -- towards the end of your testimony

23 and during the cross-examination of Mr. Harvey, you described dropping

24 off some munitions after you crossed the border into Kosovo, and that you

25 dropped them off at a kind of military depot. What precisely was this

Page 3407

1 military depot?

2 A. When we entered Kosovo in May, we went to the village of Drenoc,

3 in the municipality of Rahovec. We stayed there for a couple of days.

4 There was a small depot there where we left the weapons, the extra

5 weapons, that each of us had. And then those guns or those weapons were

6 sent to the areas where they were needed.

7 Q. Thank you. That's precisely what I wanted to know. And do you

8 know who was making the decision to send those guns to those areas, those

9 various areas?

10 A. The General Staff decided where the weapons would go on the basis

11 of the requests they had from different zones.

12 Q. And can you tell us if they -- the areas -- these various areas,

13 were they located at different part -- different places all over Kosovo?

14 A. The decisions were made about the zones that existed, such as

15 Drenica and part of the Pashtrik Zone. That's what I remember from the

16 time.

17 Q. Thank you. You also said today, and you were talking about

18 Dukagjini Zone at least, that both zones, one of the zones that you were

19 talking about - I'm sorry, I apologise, I can't remember the other one, I

20 think it might have been Drenica, but certainly Dukagjini was one of

21 them. You said "both zones were more active prior to the 28th of May."

22 What did you mean by "more active"?

23 A. By "more active," I meant that there was fighting going on in the

24 area, so there were units that operated in those zones. So by "active,"

25 I mean militarily active, because also the attacks were more intense in

Page 3408

1 those areas as well.

2 Q. Thank you. You mentioned to Mr. Harvey in the course of his

3 cross-examination, that in July you went to Jablanica, and there you had

4 a meeting with the zone commander and the General Staff but you didn't

5 give us a name. I just want to tie that up. Which -- who are you

6 talking about when you say you had a meeting with the zone commander?

7 Who -- which individual was that?

8 A. The zone commander was Ramush Haradinaj.

9 Q. Thank you. You said that you also, during the course of your

10 visit to Jablanica, you stayed there for about a day and that you visited

11 front line units. How far were those units from the village?

12 A. I can't remember the exact distance, but they had taken up

13 defence positions that were outside the village, both on the left side

14 and the right side. I can't tell you what the exact distance was,

15 though, from the place where we were.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you. And you visited those front lines and then

17 travelled from Jablanica, I think, to Gllogjan that evening; correct?

18 A. Yes, from there we went to Gllogjan.

19 Q. How did you get from Jablanica to Gllogjan? Can I ask you the

20 means that you used?

21 A. To my recollection, we went there by vehicle, from Jablanica to

22 Gllogjan.

23 Q. And did you have to take any extra security precautions or did

24 you just get into the car with your entourage and move from Jablanica to

25 Gllogjan?

Page 3409

1 A. We set off by car. Every one of us was armed, and we also had

2 soldiers that escorted us. These were soldiers given to us by Ramush,

3 and we went to Gllogjan.

4 Q. I see. So you had been provided with an escort by Mr. Haradinaj

5 from at least the point that -- of time that you arrived in the area,

6 namely at Jablanica?

7 A. Yes. When we left Jablanica there was an officer there, Salihu,

8 but there were also soldiers that escorted us.

9 Q. Thank you. You were asked questions by Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith, and

10 again it's just a very minor matter. You told us that the -- you were

11 informed by the zone commander that the man called Togeri or Toger was

12 Idriz Balaj. Again, can you tell us which individual you're talking

13 about when you said that the zone commander identified him?

14 A. The zone commander, Ramush Haradinaj.

15 Q. And you said in evidence that -- this morning that Mr. Haradinaj

16 introduced Toger and, as I understood your evidence, it was explained to

17 you that he was experienced, that he'd fought in Croatia, and that he was

18 a brave person. Is that -- do I understand you correctly?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And those features of Idriz Balaj, namely his experience, his

21 past experience in Croatia, and his bravery, were matters explained to

22 you by whom, by Mr. Haradinaj or by someone else?

23 A. Yes, as far as I remember.

24 Q. Yes, Mr. Haradinaj told you that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3410

1 Q. Had you asked to be introduced to Toger or was that a matter that

2 was raised with you in -- by others, by Mr. Haradinaj?

3 A. I can't remember whether there was a request to see him, but in

4 the course of the tour I had I met him as well.

5 Q. Thank you. You also mentioned some names at the beginning of

6 your cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith. Names were: Naim, Hazeri,

7 Bekim Shyti, and Mensur Kosumi. As far as you were aware were all those

8 men members of the KLA?

9 A. Bekim Shyti had joined the KLA when we had the training. He was

10 trained in the places where we conducted the training, while Mensur

11 Kosumi was an officer in the Bosnian army and he participated in the

12 Bosnian war and he was one of the officers that trained soldiers.

13 Q. Okay. But what I -- the only real detail that I need is simply

14 this: Those three men whose names I mentioned, were they at the time or

15 did they subsequently become members of the KLA?

16 A. Yes, later members of the KLA.

17 Q. Thank you. I want you to turn now to your evidence that you gave

18 yesterday in answer to questions by Mr. Emmerson. You were asked on

19 three occasions about the absence of a building where KLA headquarters --

20 well, let me rephrase that. It was -- it was suggested to you, put to

21 you, that there were -- and you were asked if the KLA had a building or

22 headquarters in Tirana, and you said -- you said no. That was the effect

23 of your evidence. Do you remember that?

24 A. Yes, I remember.

25 Q. Do you know if that issue was ever discussed, the -- the

Page 3411

1 acquisition of a permanent physical location for KLA headquarters?

2 A. No. I don't know whether there was such a building in Tirana at

3 the time.

4 Q. You said that -- evidence in chief, your evidence-in-chief, not

5 in -- yesterday, in cross-examination, but evidence-in-chief, that the

6 training you conducted had to be done clandestinely. What was the

7 reason? Can I ask you if the reason for that would have applied to the

8 setting up of any permanent physical headquarters in Tirana?

9 A. No. That was because the Government of Albania did not allow us

10 to operate in the Albanian territory. So by this, I mean to train our

11 soldiers, the KLA soldiers, in their territory.

12 Q. I understand that. What I'm asking -- what I'm asking is this:

13 Do you -- and tell us -- please tell us if you don't know. Okay? I'm

14 not trying to make -- put words in your mouth, but tell -- make sure you

15 tell us if you don't know, but tell us if you do know.

16 Did that consideration also apply to the placing of a -- or the

17 acquisition of, or the setting up of, a permanent building or structure

18 for the KLA in that country, in Albania?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Fine. Thank you. You were also asked questions by Mr. Emmerson

21 concerning the movement of the General Staff within Kosovo, and you said

22 in evidence: "The General Staff moved from place to place. They did not

23 stay in one place only. Those movements were for reasons of security."

24 And you touched upon this topic again this morning.

25 What precisely -- what precisely did you -- was the reasoning

Page 3412

1 behind moving the staff around and not keeping it in one particular

2 building?

3 A. First of all, I did not receive any translation.

4 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. I can -- let me --

5 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- if you would please repeat your

6 question --

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yeah, I'll repeat it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Di Fazio. And if you would like -- if you

9 would please inform us if you still do not receive any translation.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. Yesterday you said, and again today you mentioned, that the

13 General Staff moved around for reasons of security, and that was the

14 reason why there wasn't a particular headquarters or one physical

15 location. What precisely -- what was the thinking behind moving around

16 from place to place?

17 A. I already mentioned that the staff moved in -- into various areas

18 because of security considerations.

19 Q. All right. Let me put it to you this way: Was that -- was it --

20 were you concerned with the KLA General Staff being concentrated in one

21 building or one location?

22 A. When I speak of security considerations, I keep in mind the

23 developments at the time. In July the Serb offensive started, so

24 considerations of security became more important for the General Staff.

25 But also, we couldn't stay in one place only.

Page 3413

1 Q. Well, it's -- it might be obvious to you, but it's not quite

2 obvious to me, and I would appreciate if you would spell it out as

3 clearly as you can. You said it was important for the General Staff and

4 that you couldn't stay in one place only. That's what you were being

5 asked about in cross-examination.

6 Now, why? Why couldn't you stay in one place only? Why not set

7 up a headquarters in a village somewhere in Kosovo and stay there and

8 operate out of that one building? Yeah?

9 A. It was impossible to do that at that time because when I started

10 in July until September/October, there were a lot of Serb offensives, and

11 it was impossible for the General Staff to be located in a single

12 facility. It was a matter of security and safety for its members. Many

13 zones -- there were fightings in many zones, so it wasn't possible to be

14 concentrated in one zone.

15 Q. All right. Thank you, thank you. You also were taken to the

16 topic of communications between the General Staff and zone commanders,

17 and you said in evidence -- or you agreed with the proposition that there

18 were no regular communications, and that it was difficult to communicate.

19 My question is: Was it possible to communicate at all? Did you

20 sometimes achieve -- or did you sometimes communicate with the zone

21 commanders?

22 A. As I said in my statement, from July that I was given this task

23 in the operation department; and afterwards, the Serbs -- the Serb forces

24 mounted attacks on us. Therefore, it was impossible to have frequent,

25 regular contacts among the zone commanders or hold regular meetings. So,

Page 3414

1 as I said, this made it impossible for the General Staff to hold regular

2 meetings with the zone commanders.

3 Q. All right. Do I -- can I take it from what you've just said that

4 although it was impossible to have regular meetings and communications,

5 there were communications of some sort from time to time?

6 A. I don't receive translation.

7 Q. All right. Can you hear me now? Do you want me to repeat my

8 question for you?

9 A. No, because I had it translated again by the interpreter.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. I'm saying that we couldn't have frequent, regular contacts, but

12 we did have some contacts, as the case was with my July visit in Dukagjin

13 and in other zones which enabled me to meet the commanders and know the

14 situation.

15 Q. Okay. And apart from personal visits, like the one that you have

16 described at length, were there other means of communication, irregular

17 and infrequent; for example, radio, or courier, or any other means of

18 communication?

19 A. We didn't have radio communication, from what I remember, for the

20 period I am testifying; that is, June, September, October. There were

21 some instances of radio communication with some zones, but I, personally,

22 I didn't have this kind of communication with the zones. Sometimes we

23 used couriers; sometimes, depending on the situations, through direct

24 contacts when we actually went -- physically went to the zones to help

25 them.

Page 3415

1 Q. Thank you. You were asked by Mr. Emmerson this question and you

2 provided this answer:

3 "People would get together what scraps of uniform they could and

4 any weapons they either had or could smuggle in from Albania and try to

5 call themselves an army at this point?"

6 You answered: "For that period, yes."

7 Do you know where the weapons that were being smuggled in from

8 Albania into Kosovo actually came from?

9 A. From my information I got from other members, I know that they

10 came from Albania, but I cannot give you information as to the precise

11 source of such weapons.

12 Q. Thank you. You've -- you were asked again in cross-examination

13 about - I think this morning - about your personal smuggling or

14 transportation -- let's call it "transportation" of weapons into Kosovo.

15 When you were based in Tirana and before the 28th of May when this

16 happened, were you aware of other weapons being smuggled or transported

17 from Albania and into Kosovo?

18 A. From what I know, I never thought that it was a kind of

19 smuggling. I know that there was a logistical department which worked

20 for that. I wouldn't call that smuggling.

21 Q. No. I wouldn't call it smuggling either; that's Mr. Emmerson's

22 phrase. Let's call it "transportation." You've told us about your

23 transporting weapons across the border into Kosovo; you did it personally

24 on the 28th of May. My question is this: Did that phenomenon occur, as

25 far as you're aware, prior to the 28th of May, when you were based in

Page 3416

1 Tirana, in Albania?

2 A. When I was in Tirana, I know that there was a lot of

3 transportation going on of weapons to Kosova.

4 Q. Do you know who was paying for those weapons?

5 A. From what I knew then, it was paid by the fund,

6 "Vendlindja Therret"; that is, homeland is calling.

7 Q. And do you know who was making the decision to send that

8 particular convoy or -- particular convoy across the border?

9 A. I cannot give you accurate information, but I know that it was

10 the duty of the logistical department.

11 Q. Of the KLA General Staff?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, you've told us -- you've touched upon what

14 happened to the weapons that you took across on the 28th of May. Do you

15 have any information as to what happened to the weapons that were

16 transported across the border prior to that, the ones that you heard

17 about that, that you had information about? Do you know how -- what

18 happened to them once they got across the border and into Kosovo?

19 A. I don't know what happened to them before the 28th of May. I

20 only know that they were sent to Kosova, but as to what happened with

21 these weapons after that, I don't know.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Could the witness be shown P141.

24 Q. That's the document that was put to you by Mr. -- you were shown

25 by Mr. Emmerson.

Page 3417

1 MR. DI FAZIO: It's tab 4 in the Defence bundle, if Your Honours

2 please. P141, I believe.

3 Q. Okay. You've got it up now. Can you see it?

4 A. Yes, I can see it.

5 Q. Could you assist me, please. If you just run your eyes down

6 through the document you'll get to a passage that would seem to be the

7 words of Salih Veseli. Do you see that? Yes, I think you can see it on

8 the first page. It might -- I don't know. I can't do the translation in

9 my mind. The point that I am interested is, is these words. There seem

10 to be the words:

11 "Victory will not come from holding routes; this is fatal."

12 Do you see those words? It might be the next page. See if you

13 could -- I will be grateful if you could find that passage:

14 "Victory will not come from holding routes; this is fatal."

15 MR. DI FAZIO: It might be on the second page for all I know.

16 Perhaps -- I think the witness has a hard copy there in front of him.

17 Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It seems he has.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: I think he had --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a hard copy?


22 Q. It's -- if I can assist you, it's -- you should see the name

23 "Salih Veseli," and it starts off:

24 "The people who are closest are those that understand one

25 another. We have done something of great importance ..."

Page 3418

1 Do you see it? And in the English, it would indicate that it's

2 not very far into the document at all.

3 A. Which document, please? Yes, I see it now.

4 Q. Okay. Can you -- the English that I've got here is -- it says

5 this, and it's about ten or so lines under -- under the name "Salih

6 Veseli." And then there's a notation: "Victory will not come from

7 holding routes," then there is something illegible, and then the words

8 "This is fatal."

9 Do you see that?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Have you found it? It's at the top of the second

11 page.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If the --

13 JUDGE ORIE: It's the semi-last -- just two lines above the

14 separation line on the second page.


16 Q. Well, perhaps I can deal with it this way. Perhaps I'll --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Where are we? We are, as a matter of fact, if I

18 look at the screen, we are not -- yes. We are at the right place.

19 Have you found -- it's approximately the third and fourth line

20 from the top there.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.


25 Q. It says: "Victory will not come from holding" -- okay?

Page 3419

1 It says -- you're looking at the part and it says: "Victory will

2 not come from holding routes ... this is fatal."

3 Do you see that?

4 A. I see that.

5 Q. Thank you. And I just want to now take you to another passage in

6 the -- in the document. I hope that you can just keep reading down

7 slowly and it continues with the words of Mr. -- continuing R. Haradinaj

8 and then Major Salih reading out something. And then Rrustem Teta

9 speaking, Rrustem Teta. Do you see that passage where Rrustem Teta

10 speaking?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And Rrustem Teta opined -- Rustem Teta says: "There's little

13 consolidation of forces. There's no excuse for self-satisfaction with

14 what has been done. I cannot call our territory a free zone while the

15 enemy holds the road routes and towns."

16 Do you see that?

17 JUDGE ORIE: It's just following --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.


20 Q. Okay. Now, during your visit in July to the area and when you

21 met with these men, these local soldiers, did anyone express those

22 sentiments to you that: "Victory will not be achieved by holding the

23 routes," and that: "The territory could not be called a free zone while

24 the enemy," presumably the Serbs, "hold the roads and towns"?

25 A. Not during my visit, as far as I can remember.

Page 3420

1 Q. Thank you. At the time that you visited in July -- July, the

2 Serbs held the main road that you crossed to get to Reka e Keqe, at least

3 they had positions on there that caused you to go -- to take security

4 precautions; correct?

5 A. Correct, yes. When I went to Reka e Keqe.

6 Q. Right. You've told us all about that, how you had to cross the

7 road at night and so on. And as far as you're aware, did the Serbs also

8 hold the big towns of the local towns in the area?

9 A. Yes, at that time, yes --

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. -- all the cities were under the control of the Serbian forces.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Before we go to a different document, may I ask

14 for precision because the translation is not complete in regard of this

15 sentence with holding the routes or holding routes. There is some --

16 some place named illegible, called illegible.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Well --

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Now, this is -- and now you also cited it in a

19 slightly different way. So can we go up once more to that place where

20 victory is not --

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes, by all means.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That would be the top of page 2.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, would you go back to that -- to that portion.

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: To check that sentence.

Page 3421

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Did Your Honour want me to do that or did --

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, maybe the witness could explain to you, yes.


4 Q. Well, firstly, read it out as best you can, that -- that

5 sentence: "Victory will not come ..." read out in Albanian what you can

6 read, please.

7 A. "Freedom cannot be won by holding scientific directions." This

8 is what it says here. I don't know what he has meant by this word. From

9 the military point of view, it means that someone is engaging in mil --

10 in science and not in concrete works. Personally, I don't understand

11 this sentence.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Verification will be made.

13 MR. EMMERSON: I'm receiving some indications from behind that

14 there is a problem with the translation of that passage.

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, I also had the impression.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: That's precisely why I asked the witness to read

17 it into the transcript and to get the -- the court interpretation.



20 Q. Just so that we're absolutely certain, read it out carefully, the

21 words that appear in that phrase. Read them out in Albanian and clearly,

22 so that the interpreters can hear them, and include at the end of it

23 anything referring to the word "fatal."

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: With the Court's indulgence, if Mr. Willemsen

25 could be excused from the court proceedings for but a moment, I know that

Page 3422

1 you have to walk through, so that we can also have it independently

2 double-checked right now.


4 Could you please slowly read the sentence, Mr. Zyrapi, to the

5 best of your ability in your own language.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even though the handwriting is very

7 poor to -- "You cannot win by -- by holding scientific directions; this

8 is fatal -- fatal." Full stop.


10 Q. Thank you. You -- before you came to the --

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Firstly, does that satisfy Your Honours' concerns

12 or ...

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Well, it gives us some information. Thank you.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Yes. I'll move on.

15 Q. Up until you came to The Hague, had you seen this document

16 before?

17 A. Most of them -- you think now? During the time I'm here or --

18 Q. No, no. What I mean is up until recent months, had you seen this

19 document before?

20 A. No, no, I didn't see this document before.

21 Q. Okay. And it would seem on the face of it that it was created on

22 the 23rd of June, 1998, and that was before you went to -- to the area;

23 correct?

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm going to object to the question just

25 posed unless Mr. Di Fazio is now going to be testifying because --

Page 3423

1 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, I think the -- there was quite

2 a -- it was elicited several times that the 23rd of June was the --

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not dis -- that I'm not disagreeing --

4 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, can I --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Now -- and then the second -- I'm just trying to

6 analyse the whole of it. And then that was before you went to the area,

7 I think "the area," need to be further defined in order not to have

8 any --

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Dukagjini, I meant Dukagjini, the Dukagjini area.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: There's also the previous question, which is

11 posed by Mr. Di Fazio, in which is: "What I mean is up until recent

12 months, had you seen this document before?" And that's a vague question

13 and, I think, somewhat confusing in the context of what the witness is

14 testifying --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, you'd like to have more precision,

16 that's fine.

17 Mr. Emmerson, you're on your feet as well.

18 MR. EMMERSON: My concern also related to that first question --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's ask the witness, let's keep matters

20 clear.

21 When did you for the first time see the document, Mr. Zyrapi, as

22 far as you remember?

23 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated].

24 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One of the microphones is switched off. Could

Page 3424

1 you please switch the other microphone on -- no, it's --

2 Yes. When did you, for the first time, see the document which

3 you find now on your screen?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this document here when the

5 Prosecutor showed it to me as a document, but not before that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That was, well, let's say, when you arrived in

7 The Hague this month? Is that correctly understood?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Does that satisfy --

10 MR. EMMERSON: Well, just to be clear, we obviously have a record

11 in the witness's statement of the documents that have been shown to him

12 and the documents that are produced. Now, Your Honours may recall that

13 when I dealt with this document in cross-examination, I pulled up on the

14 screen a much fuller minute of the same meeting --


16 MR. EMMERSON: -- which is unquestionably in the Prosecution's

17 documents that were shown and purportedly exhibited by this witness. So

18 there is -- he has been shown and has identified in some detail the full

19 narrative minute of the meeting in which a lot of this material is

20 recorded in greater detail.

21 As far as this document is concerned, obviously we'll all check

22 the records, certainly it was my recollection that this, too, had been

23 shown to the witness and that he had produced it. But if I'm wrong about

24 that, I will correct it. But I'm certain, or as certain as I can be,

25 that the document that was pulled up on the screen, which relates to the

Page 3425

1 same meeting and is a much fuller minute of it, is one which he commented

2 on in some detail in his witness statement.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Does that in any way contradict the answer of the

4 witness?

5 MR. DI FAZIO: No, it doesn't. I'm grateful --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Answer of the witness --

7 MR. DI FAZIO: -- it will save me some time.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand the -- where the witness commented,

9 we are talking about the April statements, April 2007?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It seems to be fully in line with what the witness

12 just said.

13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Yes, I'm not -- I'm not questioning that. I

14 simply wanted to make it absolutely clear that when we dealt with this in

15 cross-examination, I indicated to Your Honours and pulled up on the

16 screen the much fuller record --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. Mr. Emmerson, that's --

18 MR. DI FAZIO: That's exactly what I'm trying to establish.

19 JUDGE ORIE: There's no problem with that. I think -- don't

20 think it needed this intervention because, of course, we make a

21 distinction between document A and document B, even if it's -- relates to

22 the same event.

23 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

25 Q. And you were asked in detail by Mr. Emmerson about the contents

Page 3426

1 of this document, and you were asked this series of questions and you

2 gave this series of answers, and this is at page -- I'm sorry, I've only

3 got page 69 -- oh, no, it's 3325.

4 MR. EMMERSON: I do apologise, I know I -- I know Your Honours

5 already indicated that you thought my last intervention unhelpful, but

6 I'm looking at page 13 of the witness statement of the 12th of April, and

7 the very document that is on the screen is produced by the witness in

8 that statement. So that much, I hope, is clear.


10 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.


12 Q. You were asked this series of questions, you gave this series of

13 answers:

14 "It says subsequently at a question by Ramush -- Salih Veseli and

15 give" -- I'm sorry, this is not very clear English, but I'll do my best.

16 "... and give a professional clarification of the tasks of a commander,

17 the deputy, and Chief of Staff. Do you see that?

18 "A. Yes.

19 "Q. So it's clear, is it not, that this was a process of

20 election, first of all. Do you agree with that?

21 "A. Yes.

22 "Q. Attended by villages which had been operating autonomously

23 up until then but are trying to come together in a single command?

24 "A. Yes.

25 "Q. It culminates in a vote in favour of Ramush Haradinaj as the

Page 3427

1 commander; correct?

2 "A. Yes.

3 "Q. At which point he immediately turns to one person who has

4 military experience and asks him, What should a commander do? What

5 should the roles and responsibilities be?

6 "A. Yes."

7 Were you agreeing with all of those propositions on the basis of

8 something that you knew, something that you'd been told, or were you

9 simply agreeing that that's what the document says?

10 A. I was agreeing to the words of the document, because I wasn't

11 present at this meeting to know what was discussed there.

12 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Zyrapi.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hoepfel has one or more questions for you,

15 Mr. Zyrapi.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. Mr. Zyrapi, please, I would like to ask you

18 some questions about the weapons again, but as to the purchasing of which

19 you were involved in Albania during the first period of time until 28th

20 of May. So you might be able to give us some more details. First:

21 Where, to which dealers, would you go to inspect and buy this weaponry?

22 A. As I said earlier, I worked in close cooperation with a logistics

23 department, people like Raif Gashi, Ilir Konushefci, and so on, and with

24 these people I went to inspect the weapons technically, and whether these

25 weapons could be bought or not. I don't know who the dealers were, who

Page 3428

1 people -- who the people who were selling these weapons were. It was

2 just that I gave my approval, technical approval, that these weapons

3 could be used. I don't know what the logistics department did with

4 regard to the purchasing of those weapons.

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. And what can you say about the origin of

6 this material, both weapons, even if old weapons, and ammunition?

7 A. The weapons I inspected were old weapons, Chinese make. Some of

8 them were also produced in Albania, some were Yugoslav weapons. These

9 were the weapons that I saw at the time when I inspected them.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. And as to the authorisation for

11 ordering or purchasing these weapons, I take it that the logistics

12 department was in charge of that. But do you know, did they have a sort

13 of a limit in terms of the price or -- amount of weapons to buy or who

14 was in charge of those questions?

15 A. I'm not aware about any of those things. I was not part of the

16 negotiations or establishing the price or things like that. Those were

17 decisions that were, of course, taken by the logistics department.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. I'm done.


20 Mr. Zyrapi, quite a few questions have been put to you in

21 relation to the 23rd of June meeting where, as we saw on the document, it

22 was decided who would be in command of the Dukagjini Zone. Do you have

23 any knowledge of whether the Dukagjin Zone command exercised at any

24 earlier stage any authority or any power in an area other than just the

25 limited Dukagjin Zone? I mean to that, the zone east of the road you

Page 3429

1 described, the Decani-Djakovica road. So the question is whether any

2 authority or any power was exercised outside that area, especially west

3 of that road, prior to the 23rd of June?

4 A. I have no knowledge of that. I wasn't in the area, so I don't

5 know who exercised control.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So you also don't know whether actually on the 23rd

7 of June this -- well, let's say this unified command of the Dukagjin Zone

8 was established or other -- or whether it existed already before that

9 date?

10 A. No, I don't know whether it existed earlier.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You testified that no one in the KLA

12 received any salaries throughout. How would people feed their families

13 or -- I mean, how could people survive without any payment; do you know?

14 A. I cannot speak of each and every case in particular, but I know

15 that there were no salaries in the KLA in general. I have to say,

16 though, that the people of Kosovo helped us with food and clothes and

17 helped the families. I don't know how the families managed, but we were

18 accommodated by the people and we were helped by the people all the time.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. We have seen - let me

20 just have a look at it. We have seen a document -- perhaps it can be

21 shown to the witness P153.

22 Yes. Could we please -- have you ever seen that document before,

23 Mr. Zyrapi?

24 A. No. As far as I remember, no.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It is a programme - at least that is what it says -

Page 3430

1 for the training for units. We looked at it and we see a lot of subjects

2 being part of that training. You were involved in training units as well

3 or in preparing for the training of units?

4 A. Yes, I also had that task at the time, but I had never seen this

5 document before. It looks like a document that represents the plan for

6 the training of units.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, looking at this programme - and I'm not

8 asking you to focus on this programme - but I saw there was no

9 training -- at least, it doesn't appear on the document, there was no

10 training in international humanitarian law, that is to say, what is

11 allowed and what is not allowed during warfare or during armed conflict.

12 Was that ever any part of a training programme you were involved in?

13 A. From what I recall, I'm not sure whether in the beginning they

14 did such training, but from November onwards when I was Chief of Staff

15 and organised trainings for commanding officers, from the level of the

16 company and the battalion, this was included into the training. But

17 earlier than that, I don't know. However, according to the information I

18 had from the former director of the operational department, he told me

19 that he had prepared a brochure that he had distributed to the units on

20 the ground. It was like a booklet. I don't know what else was done. As

21 I said, this was a very dynamic period. I was moving all the time.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

23 Finally I'd like to ask you whether -- whether there was any

24 structure of military court, any structure to investigate and prosecute

25 any crimes that might have been committed?

Page 3431

1 A. In 1998, until December 1998, there wasn't any military court;

2 then, with the organisation of the staff, one was established.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And do you have any recollection of cases that were

4 brought before that court?

5 A. I can't remember exactly, but there were cases of breaches of the

6 rule book of the KLA. The court was something that was controlled by

7 another department.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us anything about the breaches?

9 What kind of breaches? Could be of all kinds?

10 A. When I speak of breaches, I speak of military breaches committed

11 by the soldiers or the officers of the KLA, meaning breaches of the

12 provisional rule book of the KLA, such as, for example, mistakes made by

13 soldiers who have been sent to this court in order for that kind of

14 mistake or error to be evaluated.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mistake or error. Was there ever a case heard on

16 crimes committed against non-KLA army members, from what you remember, if

17 you remember?

18 A. I don't remember of any such case. There might have been, but I

19 don't remember.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Have you ever become aware of the Serb police

21 recovering a number of corpses in September 1998 in the Dukagjin Zone?

22 A. No, I did not have any information to that effect at the time.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When did you then learn that, if you say "at

24 the time," or did you ever learn it?

25 A. Later on I heard when the trial started, this case started. I

Page 3432

1 heard that it was part of the indictment against Mr. Haradinaj.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. If you would find in a

3 document of the operational headquarters of the Plain of Dukagjin of

4 mid-July that instructions are given and if these instructions are

5 violated, that those who are violating this order might be brought to a

6 military court - I'm talking about mid-June 1998 - what would be your

7 comment in relation to your answer that a military court was established

8 only five, six months later?

9 A. As I said, during that period there was no court, but there was

10 no request as well during that time about any such breaches in the

11 Dukagjin area.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, if you tell your subordinates that

13 they'll be brought before a military court, if it doesn't exist, that at

14 least surprises me. Therefore, I'm asking you whether there was any

15 structure already in July in place that could investigate or before which

16 one could prosecute those who did not obey orders?

17 A. But we're talking about the period when the court did not exist,

18 and I don't know how they dealt with these issues and if they dealt with

19 those issues.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever discuss that when -- in mid-July, when

21 you visited the Dukagjin Zone, setting up courts or ...?

22 A. No. As far as I recall, we did not discuss that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I've got no further questions.

24 Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need for further

25 questions to the witness? If not, then this concludes your evidence,

Page 3433

1 Mr. Zyrapi, in this courtroom.

2 May I take it that the presence of Mr. Zyrapi is not needed to

3 further discuss the admission of -- of the exhibits?

4 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I think I've communicated to the Prosecution

5 the areas of difficulty, and I think Mr. Di Fazio would like a little

6 longer to assimilate and respond to that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. But the presence of the witness is not

8 needed?

9 MR. DI FAZIO: No, we don't need him, no.

10 MR. EMMERSON: I think that's right. And whilst I'm on my feet,

11 may I apologise. I misspoke myself earlier on. It is correct that both

12 of those two minutes are referred to in the April statement, but it's

13 also correct, and Your Honours have it, that in the 2005 statement the

14 typed minute is also referred to and commented upon at paragraph 31 and

15 exhibited.


17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can we clarify one thing as to these two minutes?

18 JUDGE ORIE: With the witness or --

19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. Maybe we can use the witness in this

20 regard, because, Mr. Emmerson, you pointed out you identified this as two

21 minutes of one and the same meeting. Do I remember correctly?

22 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, yes.

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: But would you characterise them when -- when

24 tendering them as -- with the dates, because they have two different

25 dates actually?

Page 3434

1 MR. EMMERSON: I think they, in fact, bear the same date.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I may be --

3 MR. EMMERSON: The date is at the end of the typed minute.

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The 20 --

5 JUDGE ORIE: 24th of June.

6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- 24th, and the first one is 23rd, actually.

7 Isn't it?

8 MR. EMMERSON: No. I think -- I think there is some confusion.

9 The --


11 MR. EMMERSON: -- the document that is the same minute is not in

12 the printed bundle, it was the one that I brought up on the screen.

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Oh, yes, now I see. And these are --

14 MR. EMMERSON: And that is -- if Your Honours look to the -- to

15 the statement of November 2005 --


17 MR. EMMERSON: -- the penultimate document attached -- in the

18 redacted version that was admitted, 92 ter.


20 MR. EMMERSON: The penultimate document in that bundle -- there's

21 a single sheet at the end, which relates -- which is a different order,

22 and then immediately before that, there is a document that begins on --

23 if one looks at the numbers in the top right-hand corner, 0 -- so

24 U0091350 through to 1353. Now, that is the document that I brought up on

25 the screen yesterday but which is not in the yellow file. It's referred

Page 3435

1 to at paragraph 31 of the statement --


3 MR. EMMERSON: -- and it is the 23rd of June typed minutes of the

4 same meeting, and it's possible literally to trace through speaker by

5 speaker.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Isn't that the document for which there was no

7 translation available?

8 MR. EMMERSON: No, there was a translation available, it was on

9 the screen yesterday, we looked at it in the course of the evidence, and

10 it's Exhibit P142.

11 JUDGE ORIE: P142.

12 MR. EMMERSON: It may be very helpful because it is, as I say, a

13 much more detailed narrative account of that very same meeting, but it

14 follows literally speaker by speaker, and that is the one which this

15 witness looked at in November 2005.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I remember. There was no translation

17 available as an attachment to the statement. There --


19 JUDGE ORIE: But P1 -- is that -- I yesterday expressed some

20 concerns about an original English statement with attachments which

21 were - at least in hard copy - in Albanian, though not translation, and

22 then I checked in the system, and I think I made reference to a 26- or a

23 25-page document and a 15-page document.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's correct.

25 JUDGE ORIE: But the translation was -- has the translation now

Page 3436

1 been added?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: It was added to the original version.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It was added to the original version, which is the

4 English version.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, to the original statement, to the --

6 JUDGE ORIE: To the statement in the -- in Albanian?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: In English.

8 JUDGE ORIE: In English?

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

10 MR. EMMERSON: Just for the sake of clarity, that is not this

11 document; that's a different document. The document that we're dealing

12 with here, P142 --

13 JUDGE ORIE: But it seems to have the -- I look at the attachment

14 to the November 2005 statement --


16 JUDGE ORIE: -- where I find something which is called "Proces

17 Verbal," that's the major title.


19 JUDGE ORIE: At the very bottom it says: "The 23rd of June,

20 1998."

21 MR. EMMERSON: Correct.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And from what I remember, it also -- ERN numbers

23 went up to U0091353, and I think I heard you use that same number.

24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Exactly so.


Page 3437

1 MR. EMMERSON: And then -- it is appended to the statement there.

2 So it's U0091350 to 1353 in the Albanian.


4 MR. EMMERSON: And it is now Exhibit P142 in the system. I

5 pulled it up yesterday with its translation which is linked. And indeed

6 Your Honour asked some questions about the translation, because if you

7 remember in the rough minute the remark from Nazmi Brahimaj is -- it is a

8 done deal --


10 MR. EMMERSON: -- and in the complete minute, it is a

11 fait accompli or the other way around. So, one can trace the two

12 documents through the one to the other, they're exactly the same meeting,

13 the same minute. It's just that this is much more detailed than the

14 rough one, but the rough one appears to have been the notes that were to

15 be taken, so to speak, simultaneously as the meeting was going on.

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, thank you, and clearly it was not necessary

17 anymore, to have the witness here.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zyrapi --

19 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours.


21 MR. HARVEY: Before the witness is asked to leave, Your Honour,

22 Judge Orie, you had asked the witness a number of questions concerning

23 military discipline, military courts --


25 MR. HARVEY: -- matters of that nature. I wouldn't seek to take

Page 3438

1 the witness to it if we're all on the same page, and the page that I'm

2 thinking of is the witness's statement from -- I think it's July of 2006,

3 the 6th of July, 2006, at page 7 and 8, where he deals in some detail in

4 paragraphs 25 onwards in that statement with his understanding of when

5 those structures were first established. And that would mean, in fact,

6 that none of those structures, military discipline structures, were in

7 existence to his knowledge prior to him becoming Chief of Staff in

8 November of 1998.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that. But July 2006 statement

10 is not admitted into evidence. It's not tendered. It's -- I think only

11 the November 2005 --

12 MR. HARVEY: Well it's --

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- and the April 2007.

14 MR. HARVEY: Exactly. It's for that reason that I'm on my feet,

15 and it might be appropriate to ask the witness to just read those I think

16 four paragraphs to himself and confirm the accuracy of the contents of

17 those four paragraphs, if Your Honour thinks that that would be helpful

18 to the Tribunal's understanding.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not -- I asked the witness about it. He said

20 something about it. I'm not seeking at this moment further details, but

21 if the parties consider it important for us to have that -- but then

22 which paragraphs would you then specifically -- because we might then

23 consider to -- you said 25 starts with --

24 MR. HARVEY: I think 25, 26, 27, 28 -- I think those are fairly

25 comprehensive --

Page 3439


2 MR. HARVEY: -- in response to the issues that Your Honour was

3 raising.


5 Perhaps for completeness sake it might be good. Do we have an

6 Albanian copy of this statement that could be given to -- because I've

7 got here the -- I've got only the English --

8 MR. HARVEY: Yes, I too have --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any Albanian copy available?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Regrettably, no. I don't have an Albanian copy --

11 hard copy here with me. I'm just wondering if --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you find one soon or is there any way --

13 MR. HARVEY: The shorter way might be simply for me to read it or

14 Your Honour to read it in English to the witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I could read it to the witness--

16 MR. HARVEY: Otherwise we'll spend a lot of time.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- and try and keep a pace that can be followed by

18 the interprets.

19 Further questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zyrapi, there's one issue in relation to some

21 questions I have put to you. You gave a statement in July of 2006. I

22 will read a portion of that statement to you, and I would like to invite

23 you to carefully listen because at the end I'll ask you whether this

24 reflects what you said at the time and whether, if you would be asked the

25 same questions, whether you'd give the same answers. I'll slowly read

Page 3440

1 it -- yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: It also can be found in e-court. It's 2D250090.

3 JUDGE ORIE: In English or --

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: In Albanian.

5 JUDGE ORIE: In Albanian.

6 Then let me slowly read it and if it could be shown on the screen

7 then it might assist the witness.

8 "Discipline issues did arise within the zones. Zone commanders

9 had authority to summarily deal with minor breaches of military conduct

10 with recourse to the General Staff or military court. Punishment could

11 range from a verbal or written admonishment to detention for a short

12 period of time. The zone commanders would include such action in their

13 regular reports to the General Staff" --

14 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, just pausing there --


16 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour read "with recourse to the General

17 Staff" --

18 JUDGE ORIE: "Without recourse." If I read that -- if I made a

19 mistake, then I'll read that line again.

20 "Zone commanders had authority to summarily deal with minor

21 breaches of military conduct without recourse to the General Staff or

22 military court."

23 And then it continues that:

24 "The range was from verbal or written admonishment to detention

25 for a short period of time. The zone commanders would include such

Page 3441

1 action in their regular reports to the General Staff.

2 "In more serious cases the zone commanders would immediately

3 detain offenders and the case would be referred to the military court.

4 Until my appointment to Chief of Staff, the General Staff had not really

5 issued orders regarding disciplinary matters. The decisions on issues

6 concerning detaining persons, seizing vehicles and other property, and

7 even just stopping people in the operational areas had really been in the

8 hands of the zone commanders.

9 "During August and September of 1998, I heard complaints about

10 soldiers misusing their power when I visited the local commanders in the

11 zones. There was an obvious need to have orders issued about this in

12 order to be able to take disciplinary action against soldiers, but also

13 for the soldiers to know what the right procedures were. The KLA

14 operated according to the rule book of the General Staff of the KLA and

15 the internal rule book of the KLA. These were printed booklets which

16 regulated the activities of the General Staff, and everyone that come

17 under their authority.

18 "I'm unable to speak authoritatively regarding the compilation

19 and publishing of these books, but I assume that much of what was

20 contained within them was borrowed from rules already established by

21 Western armies. Many copies of the rule books were produced and

22 distributed among all seven zones. The zones were then responsible for

23 the distribution of the books within their area of responsibility. Based

24 upon the rule books, the commander of the General Staff or myself would

25 issue orders and directives aimed at clarifying the action to be taken in

Page 3442

1 specific circumstances. Orders in relation to operational and military

2 matters were exclusively my responsibility, although I would also issue

3 orders in relation to other areas of the rule books."

4 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour.


6 MR. HARVEY: Might I suggest that the following paragraph should

7 also be read to the witness or at least the material part of it.

8 Paragraph 14 at page 4, which begins:

9 "In November 1998, I was appointed as the Chief of Staff of the

10 KLA General Staff. The composition of the General Staff was not at that

11 time significantly different from its composition as at January 1999.

12 This being," and then he lists himself, of course, and others. And he

13 then lists military court Sokol Dobruna, just indicating that all of this

14 is as of November 1998.

15 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour.


17 MR. EMMERSON: Before we go on to another passage in the witness

18 statement, I'm concerned about the way this matter has been introduced,

19 at this stage what amounts to a Rule 92 ter excerpt in circumstances

20 where it is possible that there could be a lack of clarity about dates.

21 My understanding of the witness's evidence is that everything that is

22 contained in paragraphs 25 to 28 relates to events that occurred after he

23 became Chief of General Staff in November of 1998.

24 JUDGE ORIE: We could ask the witness whether what was just read

25 relates to -- let's first ask the witness.

Page 3443

1 I read a portion of your statement; Mr. Harvey added some to it.

2 Does this reflect what you said when this statement was taken?

3 A. Yes, it does.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And would you -- if you would be asked about it at

5 this moment, would you give the same answers as you gave at the time?

6 A. Yes. I would give the same answers. This is my statement.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Now, when I read the portions about the discipline

8 issues arising and whether the commanders could deal with it without

9 recourse to the General Staff or military court, what time were you then

10 talking about, what time-frame?

11 A. I'm talking about the period from November 1998 onwards, the

12 period when I was Chief of Staff. So the period is from November

13 onwards.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, in that statement, there's also a line

15 which says:

16 "During August and September of 1998, I heard complaints about

17 soldiers misusing their power when I visited the local commanders in the

18 zones. There was an obvious need to have orders issued."

19 May I then take it that you earlier became aware, but that all

20 the measures put in place, that is, the rule book, et cetera, that that

21 was on from the moment that you became Chief of Staff?

22 A. I spoke about the period of August when I visited. There were

23 irregularities at that time, and commanders in September, for example,

24 complained about some soldiers misusing their powers. So on the basis of

25 the requests made by commanders when I received the duty of Chief of

Page 3444

1 Staff, I issued the order for this. But you should remember that the

2 time, August, September, and so on, it was a period of -- of very

3 intensive fighting of Serb offensives. So we couldn't do anything at the

4 time.


6 Any need for further -- Mr. Guy-Smith.

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't know if there's any -- any need for

8 further discussion. I'm just a little bit concerned because of the

9 manner in which this has come in, we may be endeavouring to put a square

10 peg into a round hole. And I had stopped earlier from asking a question

11 with regard to the issue of why not set up headquarters in a place. But

12 I think -- I think --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, matter of fact, I am --

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- the reason -- the reason I'm raising it,

15 Your Honour, is because I think that it's been pretty well established

16 that during the period that we are dealing with here, and that is from

17 the beginning of the year up until September, it was a fledgling army

18 that had no radio communication, that had insufficient weapons, with a

19 fleeing population, there was no secure area that realistically could be

20 held and they were fighting for survival --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. --

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- and the reason I'm raising it is because of

23 concerns that exist for the additional protocol II as the court has now

24 dealt with the issue of the potential of having some form of military

25 court.

Page 3445

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'll say a few words about it, but does it trigger

2 any need for further questions? If not, then I'd like first to excuse

3 the witness.

4 MR. EMMERSON: There's just one matter I wish to raise with

5 Your Honours, and it relates to Judge Hoepfel's question about the

6 passage in the minute that was illegible, and there was some concern with

7 the witness about.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do we need the witness?

9 MR. EMMERSON: It's a matter for Your Honours to decide, having

10 heard the point.


12 MR. EMMERSON: In the fuller minute, the same passage which is

13 referred to in the draft minute as being the speech of Salih Veseli is

14 given the name Majori, but it's the same text, and the translation for

15 that passage reads: "One cannot win by defending directions; this is

16 deadly."

17 So the translation -- the official translation of the official

18 minute is: "One cannot win by defending directions; this is deadly."

19 That was the passage that Mr. Di Fazio re-examined on and that

20 Judge Hoepfel was particularly interested in the translation of. So I

21 don't know whether anybody wants to take that further. If so, it's P142.

22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: No. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Zyrapi, this concludes your evidence in

24 this court. I would like to thank you for having come to The Hague, and

25 I wish you a safe trip home.

Page 3446

1 Madam Usher.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to make one short comment on the

5 development of the procedure over the last couple of minutes. I put a

6 few questions to the witness on a matter which, at least, is not in

7 evidence on the basis of the July 2006 document. I focused my questions

8 on July; of course I did that because there is one of the documents in

9 the bundle says something about, If you violate this order, I'll send you

10 to a military court.

11 Now, that was the only thing that happened. I was a bit

12 surprised that if then my attention is drawn and we read into the record

13 a lot of evidence I was not specifically seeking at that time, and then

14 to be later confronted with all the problems that reading into the record

15 would create. That is the world upside down.

16 I just wanted to tell you this, that, Mr. Harvey -- I'm not

17 looking at anyone specifically, but you're on your feet. I don't want to

18 have long debates on the matter, but just to --

19 MR. HARVEY: I apologise. I -- I was a little more concerned

20 than I think it actually made sense for me to be, in retrospect, and I

21 think it was probably unnecessary to perform that exercise. But I just

22 wanted a little clarification as to dates and times.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since you're a bit the victim now, I'd like to

24 make one further observation. When I put questions to the witness on

25 decision-making on the 23rd of June and whether then the unified command

Page 3447

1 was created, Mr. Emmerson asked the witness to take his earphones off and

2 then started explaining to me what we find in the pre-trial brief. It

3 may be clear that my questions were related to a 15th of June document

4 which we find among the material from outside -- well, let's say west of

5 the road, where it clearly says it's on the order of the Dukagjin

6 command, it says that people could move around only with the consent of

7 the Dukagjin command and the local commander. And that was the document

8 which is a document of an area which is clearly outside -- so that was

9 the basis of my questions.

10 And next time, Mr. Emmerson, you are invited to further reflect

11 before you start explaining to me what the Defence case is because the

12 Defence case is not, as such, binding or guiding to --

13 MR. EMMERSON: No. And I want to apologise if I may for the

14 tones in which I raised that. I had misunderstood the purpose of Your

15 Honour's question.


17 MR. EMMERSON: I thought Your Honour was suggesting from the

18 comment by Nazmi Brahimaj which I thought Your Honour had connected that

19 to that the minutes of the 23rd of June meeting were an indication that

20 the Dukagjini staff were seeking to exert control through a fait

21 accompli.

22 JUDGE ORIE: At least the document of the 15th of June leaves

23 some questions open. I was exploring those --

24 MR. EMMERSON: I do apologise.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Even without being reminded to what the pre-trial

Page 3448

1 brief says -- it's accepted.


3 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break for 20 minutes. We'll resume

4 at ten minutes past 1.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.47 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Emmerson, before I give you the floor, the

8 Chamber is aware that a new issue has arisen, that's -- that's of course

9 the risk of sending now and then copies to our legal staff, then the

10 legal staff will inform us to the extent relevant, that a new issue has

11 been arisen about notes or witness -- Witness 29, as we understand,

12 recently has given to the Prosecution --


14 JUDGE ORIE: -- have been disclosed. The Chamber wonders whether

15 it makes sense at this moment to deal with the issue if we have not yet

16 further information which I understand will be elicited from the witness

17 anyhow by the Prosecution.

18 MR. EMMERSON: Well --

19 JUDGE ORIE: So the Chamber would prefer to deal with the matter

20 once we have learnt more about the notes, whether it's a diary, whether

21 it's -- whether the remainder is relevant for us, et cetera.

22 MR. EMMERSON: Could I address Your Honours briefly in private

23 session, please?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll turn into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 3449











11 Pages 3449-3454 redacted. Private session.















Page 3455

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I will deliver the reasons for the decision on

12 protective measures for Witness 29.

13 Yesterday, on the 24th of April, upon hearing that the Defence

14 was not opposing, the Chamber orally granted the Prosecution's motion of

15 the 23rd of April, allowing Witness 29 to retain his earlier granted

16 pseudonym and, as well, granting him face and voice distortion. The

17 reasons for granting the motion are as follows:

18 As the Chamber has stated on prior occasions, the party seeking

19 protective measures for a witness must demonstrate an objectively

20 grounded risk to the security or welfare of the witness or his family

21 should it become known that the witness has given evidence before the

22 Tribunal.

23 In the present case, the witness has been subjected to threats on

24 a number of occasions and has had his property attacked several times,

25 while some of the persons with whom the witness was closely associated

Page 3456

1 during the period listed in the indictment have been assassinated.

2 Moreover, the witness has moved out of Kosovo for security

3 reasons and continues to fear for his safety and the safety of his family

4 members.

5 The Chamber, therefore, finds that there is a risk that if the

6 identity of the witness were to be made public, physical harm might

7 result to the witness or the witness's family.

8 And this concludes the Chamber's reason for its grant of

9 protective measures of Witness 29.

10 Mr. Emmerson.

11 MR. EMMERSON: Can I inquire whether Your Honour has it in mind

12 to hear further submissions in relation to the subpoena once the factual

13 foundation has been established or to hear the --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Depends. It depends -- it depends on what the

15 factual foundation brings us.

16 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Is the face and voice distortion in place effective?

18 Then, Mr. Kearney, I take it you would now like to call your next

19 witness, being Witness 29. But we first turn into -- no, we don't have

20 to turn into private session.

21 Madam Usher, could you please escort Witness 29 into the

22 courtroom.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness 29. Do you hear me in a

25 language you understand?

Page 3457

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, because that's how I will call you, you

3 are testifying under pseudonym. We'll not use your own name. Before you

4 give evidence in this court, you are required to make a solemn

5 declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

6 but the truth. The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I

7 invite you to make that solemn declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness. Please be seated.

11 Witness 29, you'll be first examined by Mr. Kearney, who's

12 counsel for the Prosecution. And don't be surprised if -- especially in

13 the beginning of the examination, the focus will very much be on the

14 notes you have written in the past.

15 Mr. Kearney, you may proceed.

16 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 At the outset, I would like to call up, if I may, 65 ter

18 document 1313; this is the personal data page.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Which should not be shown to the public.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examination by Mr. Kearney:

23 Q. Witness 29, can you see that document on the screen before you,

24 please?

25 A. Yes, thank you.

Page 3458

1 Q. Can you please read the information on that document and tell us

2 if it's accurate?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That is your name and your -- your date of birth. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P262,

9 marked for identification and under seal.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that there will be no objections.

11 The document is admitted into evidence.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.

13 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Your Honour, with the Court's permission, I'm going to ask

15 Madam Usher, if I may, to deliver this booklet to the witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


19 Q. Witness 29, I'd like to have you take a look, please, at that

20 notebook and ask you if you recognise it.

21 A. Yes, this is my notebook. I recognise it, of course.

22 Q. And is that a notebook you brought with you to The Hague when you

23 arrived, this week?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. There is writing on some of the pages inside that book, is there

Page 3459

1 not?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Is that writing in your hand?

4 A. Of course.

5 Q. Witness 29, I'd like to ask you first: When did you buy that

6 book? When did you receive it?

7 A. I bought this notebook a month and a half before coming here.

8 Q. So you bought that notebook in calendar year 2007; is that a fair

9 statement?

10 A. Yes, but I don't know the exact date, just approximately.

11 Q. We're going to talk more specifically in a moment, but just in a

12 general sense, can you tell us, please, what it is you wrote in that

13 book? What was your -- the words you wrote, what were you attempting to

14 record?

15 A. My aim was to write here all the notes that I had written during

16 the war in pieces of paper. I wanted all of those notes to be in this

17 notebook.

18 Q. And we'll talk about those in a moment. Besides transcribing

19 those notes you just mentioned, did you write other data in that

20 notebook?

21 A. I also have some others, but here I only have this.

22 Q. Maybe I should -- I'll back up a question.

23 You said that in that notebook, you transcribed original notes

24 from calendar year 1998. Is that true?

25 A. Yes, that's true.

Page 3460

1 Q. Those original notes from 1998, describe those for us, please.

2 What were they that -- the items that you re-transcribed into this

3 notebook?

4 A. Notes on the events that happened.

5 Q. Those original notes, when were they made in relation to the

6 events that you were describing in the notes?

7 A. I always made those notes the same day the event happened.

8 Q. And those original notes in 1998, what did you -- what did you

9 write them on initially? What kind of paper did you record those --

10 those notes on?

11 A. Different pieces of paper.

12 Q. Do you still have those different pieces of paper that you

13 recorded the original notes on?

14 A. Some of them still exist; some of them I have lost,

15 unfortunately. But most of them I think still do exist.

16 Q. Those original notes that still do exist, where are they?

17 A. Some of them are at home.

18 Q. This is not your -- when you say your home, not the -- the place

19 where you're staying in The Hague but the place you came from. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. Is there a way -- would there be a way for you to have those

23 faxed here to The Hague?

24 A. No, because for the moment I'm living in two different countries.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, could you explore - the witness said

Page 3461

1 that "some of them are at home" - where the others are?


3 Q. Witness 29, you indicated that some of the notes are at home.

4 Where are the rest of the notes? Are they -- where is the remainder of

5 the notes that are not at home, please?

6 A. The rest that are not at home -- I mean, some of the things that

7 I transcribed on this notebook, some of them I kept and some I tore up.

8 I didn't think they were useful or they were needed.

9 Q. Have you already given to the Office of the Prosecution a number

10 of your original notes relating to events that took place in 1998?

11 A. Yes, I did hand them over, some of them, but not now, earlier.

12 Q. How many notes are still remaining in your home that you have not

13 turned over?

14 A. I'm not sure.

15 Q. Is there a reason, Witness 29, that you did not bring the

16 original notes with you here to The Hague, but rather transcribed those

17 notes into the notebook you have before you?

18 A. There is no specific reason, just that there were only bits and

19 pieces, scraps of paper, and I didn't think it reasonable to bring those.

20 There were cases that on one scrap of paper I had several notes, and, as

21 I said, these were scraps of paper. I sometimes even found a piece of

22 paper on the ground somewhere and wrote on it. And that's why I thought

23 it wasn't necessary to bring those here, and that's why I transcribed

24 everything on this notebook.

25 Q. When you transcribed this information into your notebook, did you

Page 3462

1 do that accurately? Did you change anything from the original notes that

2 you -- you made the notes on?

3 A. No, absolutely not. Everything was as it was.

4 Q. In the notebook before you, are there notations about calendar

5 years beyond 1998?

6 A. Mainly these notes concern 1998, some of them 1999, but also

7 later notes.

8 Q. And when you say "later," are you talking about calendar years

9 2000/2001, in that era?

10 A. Yes, onwards, 2000, 2001. Even 2003 and 2004, there might be

11 notes on those years as well.

12 Q. How many pages of that notebook relate to 1998?

13 A. I don't know. I have to look at it first.

14 MR. KEARNEY: And with the permission of the Trial Chambers, I

15 would -- may I invite the witness to do that?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the witness -- could you please have a look at

17 the notebook and see how many pages are relating to 1998?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Three pages, but this only contains some dates, not all the

20 events, only the dates when something happened are contained there.

21 JUDGE ORIE: But you earlier said that you had copied all your

22 notes. Does that mean that on the original notes also just dates appear

23 and no further description of the events?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The original notes were the same as

25 the ones I have transcribed here. I don't forget anything. I won't

Page 3463

1 forget the things that I went through.

2 JUDGE ORIE: One additional question. You said you have torn

3 some of the notes. When did you do that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. When I wrote some of them

5 down, when I transcribed the notes into the notebook, I thought that the

6 piece of paper was not useful anymore. Some of them were also destroyed

7 without me wanting to destroy them. And I thought some of them I had

8 already handed over.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The notes remaining at the place where you live or

10 at any other place, are you willing to get them to the court and have

11 them copied so that everyone can verify that the transcript of those

12 notes in your notebook is complete and accurate?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can bring everything I have, but

14 as I said they're not complete.


16 Are there any -- Mr. Kearney earlier tried to explore with you

17 whether some of this material could be sent by Telefax. Is there any way

18 of getting this material to the court within the next -- well, let's say

19 half a day?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said earlier, part of those

21 original notes were given to the Tribunal, they were photocopied, and

22 part of those notes might be in one of the houses where I live now. And

23 the rest of the notes I gave to -- them to my senior officers when I had

24 to hand them over.

25 JUDGE ORIE: When did you do that?

Page 3464

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When something had finished and was

2 over and we sat down and discussed things, I gave them my notes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but could you tell us in what year that

4 happened?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened sometimes immediately

6 after the event had taken place and some of the notes I gave to them

7 after the war.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but at least -- I do understand many years ago.

9 Is that correctly understood?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say all of them; part of

11 them.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But those you handed over, that's quite a time

13 ago that you did hand them over to your senior officers?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, a long time ago. But, as

15 I said, it's only part of the notes -- of the notes that I had.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, again, you -- one more question. The

17 notes you earlier gave to the Prosecution, were the originals returned to

18 you?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And you used those originals to transcribe them over

21 the last couple of weeks?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Part of them were photocopied,

23 and those I might have at home. Maybe they are at my home. The rest I'm

24 not sure.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I'm also looking at the clock. I am

Page 3465

1 aware that I took some of your time, but let me just confer with my

2 colleagues for a second.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Before the Chamber will hear further submissions,

5 the Chamber would like a few activities to be developed this afternoon.

6 First of all, the parties I invited together to verify on the basis of

7 the notes that have been provided earlier - of course the Chamber is not

8 aware of them - to see whether what is in those notes is accurately and

9 completely transcribed in them.

10 I see Mr. Emmerson already nodding no, so --

11 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated].

12 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?

13 MR. EMMERSON: I know the answer to this question.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It's in the negative.

15 Then I take it that the reasons for that you might not have

16 exchanged views on the matter yet with Mr. Kearney, but I'd like at least

17 the parties together to verify to what extent we have a reliable account

18 of what would -- what happened, and also to see if there are differences,

19 what these differences are, the relevance of these differences, et

20 cetera, et cetera.

21 Then the Chamber would like to be informed if it creates a

22 situation of -- of major concern, of course the Chamber is here this

23 afternoon as well, and ways of communication could be found so that we

24 are not taken by surprise tomorrow morning. That's one.

25 Then, Witness 29, you may have noticed -- perhaps not only today

Page 3466

1 but perhaps also at earlier stages that these notes -- everyone is

2 interested to see them, and the Chamber would like you to make every

3 effort this afternoon, perhaps with the assistance of the Victims and

4 Witness Section, to see what notes could be sent by e-mail to this

5 Tribunal so that we have them available, even if there are --

6 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated].

7 JUDGE ORIE: Fax, yes. Yes, as an attachment to an e-mail is not

8 excluded, but at least by -- by any graphic means to make them available.

9 Even if they are on different -- different places, could you please make

10 an effort to see that they are sent to this Tribunal.

11 MR. EMMERSON: There's one matter I want to raise with

12 Your Honour before the witness leaves this afternoon and without the

13 witness's headphones. So whenever is a convenient moment.


15 Do you understand the English language, Witness 29?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I understand. I said

17 that part of them are here, part of them are there, but it's impossible

18 to transfer them here without me being at the place, there.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand it might be --

20 MR. EMMERSON: I think the witness was answering a slightly

21 different question --


23 MR. EMMERSON: -- in relation to whether he understands English.


25 Do you understand the English language, Witness 29?

Page 3467

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please take off your earphones for a

3 second?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

6 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, Mr. Kearney asked the witness how

7 many pages of the notebook relates to 1998, and it may be that the

8 suggestion underlying that question was that only those pages were

9 relevant to the witness's testimony. But, in fact, the notebook records

10 events that take place in 2000 and 2001. If Your Honours have the

11 witness's statement at pages -- the first statement --


13 MR. EMMERSON: -- at pages 15 --

14 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest, Mr. Emmerson - I am looking at the clock,

15 there is another case scheduled for this afternoon -

16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- that you make this part of your conversation with

18 Mr. Kearney. If you say, well, other material might be relevant as

19 well --

20 MR. EMMERSON: The whole notebook is directly relevant to the

21 statement, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you have the notebook available now.

23 Mr. Kearney also has it. I take it that you have your means by which you

24 can get a glance at what is in the notebook and perhaps develop further

25 discussions. Of course the Chamber will re-digest the whole history

Page 3468

1 which was put before us.

2 Mr. Kearney, I take it that the chronology -- if there's any

3 reason for you to not agree with the way in which the chronology was

4 presented, then of course you're invited to inform the Chamber about it.

5 We leave it for the time being to that and encourage the parties

6 to see what has to be done. At the same time, Mr. Emmerson, I already

7 announced that we are talking about subpoenas. Subpoenas -- one of the

8 tests is that someone is unwilling to do something, he is subpoenaed.

9 Now, you could of course argue about what has been done until now shows

10 any unwillingness. At least at this moment the witness has not shown any

11 unwillingness to bring any of these notes. Please keep that in the back

12 of your mind.

13 We will ask the witness to put on his earphones again.

14 Witness, we have to finish for the day. We are already very

15 late. The Chamber would like to see you back tomorrow at 9.00 in the

16 morning. You are instructed not to speak with anyone about your

17 testimony. I make one exception. If you would find any way this

18 afternoon to get these notes here, perhaps by guiding other people to the

19 place where you keep them, then that is exempted from the prohibition to

20 speak with anyone about your testimony. If you would need any

21 assistance, please ask the Victims and Witnesses Section because from now

22 on you are -- you are not going to speak anymore to the counsel for the

23 Prosecution. Of course, if there would be any reason, but then to be

24 communicated through the Victims and Witnesses Section, that the

25 assistance of the Prosecution would be helpful in resolving the matter,

Page 3469

1 then of course we would like to know and then we might make a very

2 limited exemption to the rule that a witness should not speak with the

3 calling party once he has given his solemn declaration and when he has

4 started his testimony.

5 I also keep in mind in that respect that we have not yet started

6 any examination on the substance of the witness. And of course,

7 Mr. Kearney, it goes without saying that of course further discussions,

8 if this exemption would apply, should not deal with any matter of

9 substance to the testimony.

10 MR. KEARNEY: One brief matter.


12 MR. KEARNEY: The notebook is now with the Court. It has not

13 been xeroxed for both sides, at this time.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We invite the witness to give it back to the

15 Prosecution so that it can be reproduced and remain available for the

16 Court to inspect at any later stage.

17 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, would you please be so kind as to return

19 the book to Mr. Kearney, who gave it to you; it will be copied so that

20 it's available.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here you are.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We stand adjourned until tomorrow morning, same

23 courtroom, 9.00.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of

Page 3470

1 April, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.