1 Tuesday, 15 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case

7 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

9 Before we continue with the examination of the witness, a few

10 procedural observations.

11 First, yesterday I invited the Defence to file the letter

12 referring to this new incident relevant for audio-recording of proofing,

13 and I allowed the Prosecution then to briefly respond to that. Of

14 course, the same would be true. The Prosecution has filed and drawn our

15 attention to the Karemera decision. If there's any need to respond to

16 that, you're also invited to do also within 36 hours.

17 Second, just to put it on the record, Mr. Emmerson has, in an

18 e-mail, sent the Chamber, copy to the Prosecution, copies of decisions in

19 the cases Edwards and Lewis v. the United Kingdom, a decision of the

20 27th of October 2004, and the report of the appellate committee in the

21 cases Regina v. H. and Regina v. C.

22 Mr. Emmerson, looking at those who are participating in the

23 proceedings, it might not have taken you much time to find these

24 decisions.

25 [The witness entered court]

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pappas, good afternoon. I apologise for dealing

2 with other matters when you came into the courtroom.

3 First of all, I'd like to thank you for having provided the

4 redacted report to your government to the Victims and Witnesses Section.

5 It has been -- now it's about to be translated, that will still take some

6 time, but the parties have already received the Greek -- a copy of the

7 Greek original.

8 Before I give an opportunity to Mr. Di Fazio to continue his

9 examination-in-chief, I would very much like to remind you that you are

10 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

11 your testimony yesterday.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please keep that in mind.

14 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

16 One of the documents that we showed to the witness yesterday but

17 did not complete was 65 ter Exhibit 677. I'd like that document to be

18 shown to the witness again, if -- if you please. There was a problem

19 with redactions on that document, and I think that problem's being

20 rectified, and incidentally, if Your Honours please, what I had assumed

21 were redactions, I might indicate that I was incorrect and that the

22 observations made by the parties were correct and, in fact -- that's the

23 result of writing, but this should hopefully ...

24 JUDGE ORIE: Just understand, my first questions was whether

25 these were markings or redactions.

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that these were markings.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Markings, that's right. Yes, thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

6 WITNESS: ACHILLEAS PAPPAS [Resumed]

7 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]

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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

20 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, could I, for the record, indicate -

21 and this is by reference to the index to this bundle - that tab 2 has now

22 been marked as P284; that tab 13 has been marked as P277; tab 20 has been

23 marked as P280; tab 23 as P281; tab 24 as P282; and tab 25 as P283. As

24 far as I'm aware, those are the only ones of the tabs in this document

25 which have so far been marked for identification.

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

2 Q. Mr. Pappas, you arrived in Peje around about the middle of July;

3 is that correct?

4 A. That's correct, yeah.

5 Q. And you made, you told us, fairly regular visits into territory

6 off the main roads. Is that right?

7 A. That's correct, yeah.

8 Q. And is it right that your task initially was to seek to make

9 contact and identify nucleus or nuclei of KLA activity?

10 A. Yes. One of the main.

11 Q. Plainly, you were keeping observation on Serb troop deployments

12 as well?

13 A. We don't have a strict, you know, plan to follow, but we have

14 several tasks, and we could evaluate what to report or not, if it's

15 important or we feel it's important or not.

16 Q. But were you looking at both sides or only at the one?

17 A. At both sides, yeah.

18 Q. So you were trying to establish what Serb forces were deployed in

19 the area and where, were you?

20 A. That was information that we were not seeking in terms of

21 espionage or something. If we would follow some tanks moving on the

22 road, we report that, but we were not seeking to find where they are or

23 what they do.

24 Q. Were you in contact with Serbian public officials who could

25 provide you with information on Serb deployments?

1 A. We were asking mayors or chief of police or prosecutors or

2 whoever was official in the area, leaders of political parties, religious

3 leaders, religion leaders, and staff, we had some information from them

4 during our conversations.

5 Q. Did you have -- I'm sorry.

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. Did you have official contacts with either the VJ or the MUP?

8 A. No, at any time, no. We tried -- I mean, not me myself, but

9 Kaufmann, that he was the team leader, he tried a lot of times to meet

10 commanders of VJ, but they never accepted to visit -- to -- to meet us.

11 Q. So does it follow that you never visited, for example, a VJ

12 deployment area?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And you never were able to see, for example, VJ forces working in

15 conjunction with MUP forces on particular operations?

16 A. No, no.

17 Q. And you don't know where they were stationed?

18 A. We knew, yes, but we knew where -- where the camps, you know.

19 Q. How did you know where they were stationed?

20 A. We knew that because it was obvious.

21 Q. Well, it was obvious -- what was obvious exactly, sorry?

22 A. Where were the camps, you know --

23 Q. What do you mean by camps?

24 A. -- they were stationed.

25 Q. The barracks?

1 A. The barracks, yes.

2 Q. Well, you knew that there was a major barrack for the 125th

3 Brigade in Peje?

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. And a major barracks for the 549th Brigade in Prizren?

6 A. Yeah, I don't know the -- the names or the numbers, but, yes, we

7 knew where --

8 Q. It's quite important, Mr. Pappas. You're an observer and for us

9 to --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers try not to overlap, please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then for both, please make a pause between question

12 and answer and between question -- and answer and question.

13 MR. EMMERSON:

14 Q. Just so that we understand the position, you were aware of the

15 two major barracks; one in Peje and one in Prizren?

16 A. Yes, we were.

17 Q. Were you aware of where Serb forces were deployed elsewhere in

18 the region?

19 A. No, we didn't have this information, only what we were seeing

20 every day on patrol.

21 Q. And I think you told us that you saw -- or certainly it says in

22 your statement that you saw Serb forces patrolling the main Peje to

23 Gjakove road; yes?

24 A. In some occasions, yes.

25 Q. So were you never, for example, able to observe the Serb and MUP

1 forces stationed on high ground to the west of Decane?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Or Serb forces stationed on Suka Baballoq, Suka Radoniq, and

4 Suka Cermjan to the east of the main road?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you have any information about the number of Serb troops

7 there were deployed on the ground, in the area around Lake Radoniq?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Or in the area around the canal?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So, so far as you are able --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, again, you start your new question

13 already when the witness is still about to say yes or no. Could you

14 please keep that in mind, because working becomes impossible for

15 transcribers and interpreters if we would continue this way.

16 MR. EMMERSON:

17 Q. So can I take it then, Mr. Pappas, that as far as you are

18 personally aware or were personally aware at the time, there could have

19 been Serb special forces deployed in the area around the canal; you just

20 don't know one way or the other?

21 A. I know, but for a particular period there were no Serb presence

22 at this area.

23 Q. How do you know that, Mr. Pappas? Had you ever been there

24 before, first of all?

25 A. First of --

1 Q. Before you went there in --

2 A. No, before I went there, no, I've never been.

3 Q. So how do you know there were no Serb forces deployed along the

4 canal?

5 A. As far as I know, Wolfgang Kaufmann was there about three or four

6 months before my presence. When I arrived, he gave me a briefing about

7 the area, about what we were doing, about what are we interested in

8 finding out, and a general overview. He never mentioned that during his

9 time there, there were Serb presence in the area.

10 Q. Yes. Had he visited the Serb troops troop deployments on

11 Suka Radoniq --

12 A. No.

13 Q. So he never --

14 A. As far as I know, no.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I must -- I must insist that not two persons should

16 speak at the same time. So please -- and, Mr. Pappas, I -- in normal

17 conversation I do understand that you would already let someone who

18 speaks to you know whether you agree or not, but at this occasion would

19 you please wait until Mr. Emmerson has finished his question.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. EMMERSON:

22 Q. So just to be clear, Mr. Kaufmann had never inspected Serb troop

23 deployments in the area around the Lake Radoniq canal himself?

24 A. As far as I know, no.

25 Q. So he presumably was not in a position to tell you from anything

1 that he had seen about where there may or may not have been Serb forces

2 operating on the ground?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Because in some of your reports and in some of your statements,

5 there is an assertion made that the bodies that you saw in the canal --

6 I'm sorry, the bodies that were reported to you to have been found in the

7 canal, must have been victims of the KLA because that area was an area in

8 which there were no Serb forces operating. That is a statement that

9 appears more than once?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. In fact, neither you nor Mr. Kaufmann are in a position to say

12 that, are you, from your observations because you don't know one way or

13 the other when or whether or where Serb forces, including Serb special

14 forces, may have been operating in that region?

15 A. If you could be more specific about the time you mean Serb

16 presence.

17 Q. At any time between March and September of 1998?

18 A. From my knowledge, because we were patrolling the whole area,

19 from July almost to September there was no Serb presence there as far as

20 we could see.

21 Q. Mr. Pappas, you've told us just a moment ago that you had never

22 visited the areas of high ground around Lake Radoniq --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. For example, Suka Radoniq?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

1 Q. And if I tell you that there were Serb forces stationed at Suka

2 Baballoq, Suka Radoniq, and Suka Cermjan, and that they were shelling

3 from those elevated positions, are you in a position to contradict that

4 evidence?

5 A. Again, you don't say at which period you refer.

6 Q. From April to September consistently?

7 A. I'm not aware of that, yes.

8 Q. Would that change --

9 A. I can't say --

10 Q. -- would that change your view about whether Serb forces were

11 deployed in the area you've described if that were the position?

12 A. That's a little bit strange not to meet anybody.

13 Q. Yes, but you never went there, did you?

14 A. At the high ground you say, no, but, for example, at Babaloc,

15 I've been there.

16 Q. I see. Well, we'll look at some of the reports then because some

17 of your own reports refer to Serb troops being stationed on high ground

18 at Baballoq and shelling from it?

19 A. Yeah, we can do that.

20 Q. But did you not read them, Mr. Pappas, before you made a

21 statement on oath?

22 A. Depends what you meaning.

23 Q. There are references in the reports of the ECMM --

24 A. There's a --

25 Q. I'm sorry?

1 JUDGE ORIE: Again, Mr. Emmerson, the pauses.

2 MR. EMMERSON:

3 Q. To Serb forces stationed both in the region of Suka Baballoq and

4 in the region of Lake Radoniq, and I understood your evidence to be that

5 you were unaware of that at any point during the period from April to

6 September. And I'm trying to understand how that could be?

7 A. I told you before that from April to July, I was only briefed

8 about the situation on the whole area. From July to September, I can

9 tell you what I saw --

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. -- and what I experienced.

12 Q. Yes. Mr. Pappas, you do understand the difference between --

13 A. I understand.

14 Q. -- for a moment, bear with me between saying I don't know one way

15 or the other, I never saw Serb forces myself; and saying, as you have

16 done, there were no Serb forces there. Because that is a positive

17 assertion that there were no Serb forces operating in the area. Now, is

18 it fair to say, given the answers that you've given to us this afternoon,

19 that neither you nor Mr. Kaufmann knew one way or the other where Serb

20 forces or Serb special forces were deployed or operating in the region

21 around the Lake Radoniq canal between April and September. Is that fair?

22 A. It's fair enough to say on my behalf, not on behalf of Kaufmann,

23 that I never saw Serb forces in the area. I never saw.

24 Q. And since you weren't there, is it fair also to say you don't

25 know one way or the other whether they were, in fact, operating on the

1 ground during that period?

2 A. You know, we were at an area that you could not -- you were not

3 able to -- to go through at all times anywhere you wanted because of

4 danger, because of unknown, because of many things. So we were

5 patrolling. During our patrols, I never saw Serb presence at that area

6 before September.

7 Q. But apart from Baballoq, you'd never been anywhere around the

8 lake or the canal, had you?

9 A. Very close to the lake, no.

10 Q. So again, I repeat the question, because it's rather an important

11 distinction. All you can say is that as a person who never went near the

12 Lake Radoniq canal --

13 A. No, I said to my --

14 Q. Please let me finish.

15 A. Sorry.

16 Q. All you can say is as a person who never went to the Lake Radoniq

17 canal, before the visit you paid in September, you had not personally

18 encountered Serb forces there. That's all you can tell us, isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Of course, you wouldn't have encountered Serb forces if you'd

21 never been there, would you?

22 A. Of course.

23 Q. So when you said in the witness statements that you have and from

24 time to time in the reports that you are able positively to assert that

25 there were no Serb special forces or other forces operating in that area,

1 that is a statement you're not in a position to make, isn't it?

2 A. It was a statement based on a common sense.

3 Q. Based on common sense?

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. I see. Based on common sense without having studied your own

6 ECMM reports made before you arrived there yourself?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I object to that question. If Mr. Emmerson wants

8 to put matters that he says are inconsistent with this witness's

9 testimony from documents, of course feel free, but do it --

10 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, before you make any further

11 submissions, translation is couple of lines behind. That's intolerable.

12 So therefore, we resume at your question, and please start there again,

13 Mr. Emmerson, where it reads: "So when you said in the witness

14 statements ..."

15 And, Mr. Di Fazio, you'll have an opportunity to object but first

16 things first.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour would like me to repeat the questions

18 and answers.

19 Q. For the sake of the record, Mr. Pappas, I asked you this

20 question:

21 "So when you said in the witness statements that you have and

22 from time to time in the reports that you are able positively to assert

23 that there were no Serb special forces or other forces operating in that

24 area, that is a statement you're not in a position to make, isn't it?"

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, before the witness answers the

1 questions, could you please specify what "other forces" are because I

2 don't think the witness said that there were no Serb forces and no other

3 forces. It might have been --

4 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, special forces or other forces.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. EMMERSON: So -- in other words, no Serb forces, whether

7 special or otherwise.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's now clear.

9 MR. EMMERSON:

10 Q. And I think that your reply was that the statements that you've

11 made were based on common sense. Is that right? But on reflection and

12 given that you and Mr. Kaufmann had never been there, will you accept

13 that you are not qualified to make that statement of fact?

14 A. Might be.

15 Q. Yes, thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now just for the record, again as a result

17 of answering a question and the other interlocutor starting to speak

18 again, after the words "is that right" in the question, the witness said:

19 "Yes." Again, I have to insist on clear separation of questions and

20 answers, and I'll give you 25 minutes to consider that --

21 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I think --

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- until after the break.

23 MR. EMMERSON: I think there may be some way that we can

24 re-organise this technically because from where I'm standing asking the

25 questions, I suspect from where the witness is sitting answering them,

1 we're speaking very slowly and leaving pauses. There's obviously some --

2 maybe, perhaps I need to listen to the French translation simultaneously.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That sounds to me as wishful thinking, Mr. Emmerson.

4 We'll have a break until quarter past 4.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.

8 MR. EMMERSON:

9 Q. Mr. Pappas, I think in the last few minutes you've had an

10 opportunity to have a quick look through the contents of the file that

11 sits on the desk before you. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. I just want, if I may, briefly to invite your attention to one or

14 two passages from earlier reports touching on the points we were

15 discussing before the break. First of all, could you look behind tab 1,

16 which is 65 ter 642 and under seal and not yet individually marked for

17 identification?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Is it, however, covered by the range indicated by

19 Mr. Di Fazio?

20 MR. EMMERSON: It is.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I suggest that we not assign another

22 number at this moment, but just make a remark for ourselves that it is

23 among the range to be assigned numbers.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. EMMERSON:

1 Q. Now, Mr. Pappas, this is a report from MT Belgrade dated the

2 24th of April, and if you can just see under the heading "Security,"

3 letter 2(C):

4 "It is believed by local sources that VJ and police operations

5 now concentrated in the area of Decani are moving eastwards to villages

6 in the area of Orahovac, but this has yet to be confirmed."

7 Can I ask you, please, if you just turn over the page in that

8 context to second page of this document under the heading "Military

9 Police Action in Decani."

10 Now, just so the Judges have the picture here, quite a lot of the

11 entries in these reports are drawn from newspaper and media sources. Is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. And sometimes they are drawn from Albanian sources and sometimes

15 from Serbian sources. Is that correct?

16 A. That's correct, yes.

17 Q. And the sources reflect a certain difference of perspective.

18 Would you agree with that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So, for example, the Pristina-based Media Centre of the

21 Association of Journalists of Serbia, which is cited very frequently in

22 your reports, was basically just a mouthpiece for VJ propaganda; would

23 you agree?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So some of the things that you report from the media centre are

1 essentially repetitions of VJ propaganda; you would agree with that?

2 A. No, not -- not with this form, you know, we don't reproduce

3 propaganda. We were just saying that we were informed by this document,

4 this thing.

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. That means it's open to the reader --

7 Q. Yes --

8 A. -- to say if it's propaganda.

9 Q. Well, when I say "reproduce it," I don't mean reproduce it

10 necessarily intending to disseminate it as propaganda, but you're not

11 evaluating its reliability in every instance, are you?

12 A. We could not do that.

13 Q. No.

14 JUDGE ORIE: May I again urge you to perhaps -- to assist you,

15 please look at your screen. When it stops moving, it means that the

16 transcript is where you are, and then I'll keep a close ear on the

17 translation.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. EMMERSON:

20 Q. If we could now please look at the second page under that

21 heading. Can you see there a report of a combined military police attack

22 against five villages in the region of Decani, which is said to have been

23 initiated by artillery at 0700 hours and continuing until 1030 hours on

24 the 23rd of April. And it goes on:

25 "Artillery was believed to have emanated from the direction of

1 Lake Radoniq from Palabardha village and from Boka, where the police are

2 stationed. Military and police forces are also stationed in a Serb

3 refugee camp near Baballoq. Six houses were shelled in Baballoq

4 yesterday."

5 Now, pausing there for a moment, you gave evidence before the

6 break that you had no information to suggest that there was Serb forces,

7 either in the vicinity of the lake or in Baballoq, during the period from

8 April to September?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You're wrong, aren't you, Mr. Pappas?

11 A. I can answer everything you ask me about the period that I was

12 being there, but not before or after that.

13 Q. If we look at the next entry, there is a reference there - can

14 you see it, please - to Serb artillery based at a grape plantation in

15 Gjakove attacking the village of Cermjan. Do you know where Cermjan is

16 in relation to Lake Radoniq?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You don't know where it is?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You've purported in your reports and in your statements to give

21 evidence about this area and deployments in it --

22 A. Cermjan?

23 Q. Cermjan is just to the east of Lake Radoniq --

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: It's known also as Crmljane, a different

25 spelling. Maybe you know that place.

1 THE WITNESS: Just to be clear, I have been to Lake Radonjic at

2 this site that's supposed to be mass grave once and no more, and I never

3 visited areas east of this place.

4 MR. EMMERSON:

5 Q. You understand, I'm trying to explore the basis of your knowledge

6 for some of the categorical statements that you have made.

7 If we could turn now, please, behind tab 2, which is already

8 marked for identification as P284 -- I'm sorry?

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: We are in open session. Is that okay?

10 MR. EMMERSON: That's -- in which case, if we're turning behind

11 tab 2, we should turn into private session.

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4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

9 Q. Weapons, for a moment. What quality and quantity of weapons did

10 you observe?

11 A. Most of these people that I saw, they were carrying old weapons

12 from, I could say, Russian or Chinese technology. It seemed like the

13 guns, that from time to time we were seeing gathered in police stations,

14 they were finding in villages and stuff. But I'm talking for the same

15 area as before.

16 Q. Yes. And again, what percentage of the people that you would

17 come across who seemed to be defending their villages, what percentage of

18 them would be armed?

19 A. We could only see men between age of 15, 16 years old to 50

20 maybe, but not too many. We never saw some -- some people gathered

21 together holding guns.

22 Q. I see.

23 A. No more than five, six persons at a time.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, you say in your consolidated statement that

25 there were --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, the last answer is not entirely clear

2 to me. You described the age of people and just a small number gathered

3 carrying arms. Did you see many men of the same age not carrying any

4 arms?

5 THE WITNESS: Most of the times when we were visiting these

6 areas, Your Honour, we were seeing some peoples -- some people consisting

7 of check-points or in villages holding guns, but only few, as I said.

8 And the rest of the people were carrying out village life, you know,

9 normal.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I think that what Mr. Emmerson would like

11 to know is what is approximately the balance between those armed and

12 those of the same age, male, not being armed.

13 THE WITNESS: I couldn't estimate that. I'm not in a position to

14 say that.

15 JUDGE ORIE: No, you couldn't say half of the men of that age are

16 armed --

17 THE WITNESS: Less than that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Far less?

19 THE WITNESS: Might be, as you said, almost a quarter.

20 JUDGE ORIE: A quarter. So on five or six people armed of this

21 age, men, you would see another 15 to 20 not being armed?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

25 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much for that clarification.

1 Q. You also indicated in your consolidated witness statement,

2 paragraph 9, that at the time of your arrival - and I'm quoting directly

3 now - "there were a lot of clashes between Serbs and KLA but only in

4 rural areas"?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then a little later down, further on, you say:

7 "We found a lot of abandoned villages or groups of houses which

8 were looted and most of them also burnt down."

9 Is that right?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Do I take it that those abandoned villages that had been looted

12 and burnt down were also in rural areas?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what rural areas are we talking about?

15 A. Mainly from the main road to -- from Pec to Pristina and south,

16 and less of these villages were from the main road from Pec to Decani and

17 east.

18 Q. So you saw some from -- in the area of countryside to the east of

19 the main road from Pec to Decani, but less than you saw south of the road

20 from Pec to Pristina. Is that -- have I understood you correctly?

21 A. No, more of them were south of Pec-Pristina road.

22 Q. Yes, that's what I thought you'd said. You'd gone down as far as

23 Krusevac in the area to the east of the Peje-Gjakove road between your

24 arrival on the 11th of August. Did you come across villages in that

25 state?

1 A. No.

2 Q. You didn't. Did you ever go to Streoc?

3 A. I'm not sure.

4 Q. I see.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I'm looking at the clock. Two

6 questions: First, to find a suitable moment to interrupt. And then

7 could we get an estimate of how much time you would still need?

8 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I would like to use the rest of the

9 afternoon, if Your Honour is prepared to allow me that time.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 Then, Mr. Pappas, I do not know whether any indication was given

12 to you on when your testimony would be concluded. Most likely,

13 therefore, we would like to continue tomorrow. There are other Defence

14 counsel as well --

15 THE WITNESS: Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: I do have a ticket for -- to fly back to Greece

18 tomorrow.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could that ticket be changed in any way and

20 would that be --

21 THE WITNESS: It changed already two times. So ...

22 JUDGE ORIE: There -- how did you gain the impression that your

23 testimony would be finished in two days?

24 THE WITNESS: It was an estimation according to the programme,

25 but ...

1 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you'd like to return at the

2 time scheduled.

3 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

4 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, I hope you understand that the

5 Chamber and the Tribunal would very much like you to finish your

6 testimony. Let's -- I then take it that your return flight has been

7 booked for tomorrow in the afternoon or in the morning?

8 THE WITNESS: It's 12.35 in the morning.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say it can't be changed anymore. What

10 makes you so positive? Is it your personal --

11 THE WITNESS: It's due to my --

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- commitments?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, my personal commitment and also my work. I've

14 been here since the 2nd of May, so ...

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course the Chamber is aware of your presence

16 only since you started your testimony in this court.

17 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If you say you work, are you still working for --

19 THE WITNESS: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- for the government?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 THE WITNESS: It's also personal, the problem.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, I hope you understand that

25 it will be quite disruptive for the trial if -- if you would return home,

1 and of course the Chamber would have been -- would have liked to be

2 informed about such an urgent schedule and not be confronted with it at

3 the very last moment.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: If I can possibly help, I can't do anything about

7 the personal aspects of any problems that Mr. Pappas may have, but in

8 terms of work I know that the Prosecution had -- it's already done this

9 once, can write to the relevant persons and help smooth that over and

10 explain to the relevant employers and so on.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: It can do whatever it can to assist and perhaps

13 help to allay any fears that Mr. Pappas might have in that -- that

14 department. What we can't do is anything in respect of any personal

15 matters that he may have.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Pappas, as far as your personal matters

17 are concerned, of course this Chamber will have to balance your personal

18 interest and the need to hear your testimony, to the extent whether you'd

19 like to do it in private session is another matter. To the extent you

20 are willing to assist the Chamber in making that balance and I'm not

21 promising you anything, but if we wouldn't know whether it's the birthday

22 of your mother-in-law, which of course is a very important matter, but we

23 have no impression at this moment.

24 So therefore if you would -- if you would inform the Chamber,

25 even if this would not be a matter to be heard in public, then we -- of

1 course we would move immediately into private session. But if we do not

2 know anything, then of course the Chamber is mainly aware of you alluding

3 to personal matters and the Chamber knowing in quite some detail about

4 the consequences and the disruptive effect for this trial.

5 So I leave it up to you whether you want to inform us. And if

6 so, then I also leave it up to you whether you would like to do that in

7 private session or whether you would like to do this in public session.

8 THE WITNESS: It's not something in particular, Your Honour, but

9 I've been away for a long time and I extended my limits, I think, so

10 that's it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll -- we'll consider what is appropriate.

12 So I'll take the opportunity during the break to discuss the matter with

13 my colleagues.

14 We'll have a break until five minutes to 6.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pappas, the Chamber has considered over the

18 break the practicalities of concluding your testimony, and we have

19 balanced the interest of the Tribunal of this case to conclude your

20 testimony uninterruptedly and the personal interests you have. And the

21 Chamber is always very reluctant to bring someone, a witness, in a

22 situation in which he feels uncomfortable. But, unfortunately, the

23 Chamber sees no other option than that you would have to conclude your

24 testimony most likely tomorrow and, therefore, stay for one more day in

25 The Hague. It's not with pleasure that we had to consider this, but it

1 is our -- this is the result of our balancing all the circumstances; your

2 personal circumstances, the interests of the Tribunal in general but also

3 of the parties in this case.

4 May I ask you whether you'll cooperate with changing your

5 travelling schedule so that you could remain until tomorrow?

6 THE WITNESS: Is it possible, Your Honour, to be sure that we are

7 going to finish tomorrow?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me now then address the parties. How much more

9 time, Mr. Emmerson, Mr. Guy-Smith, and Mr. Harvey, you would need --

10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Can I indicate, Your Honour?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. EMMERSON: I've reviewed my notes over the break, and I

13 regret to say I think I was somewhat optimistic in suggesting that I can

14 conclude within the hour. I have two major areas to deal with, with this

15 witness, including two pieces of video-footage that I need to put to him.

16 JUDGE ORIE: But let's be practical. So you cannot stick to --

17 you have, I take it, made a new assessment which would bring you where?

18 MR. EMMERSON: I think an hour into tomorrow.

19 JUDGE ORIE: An hour into tomorrow.

20 Mr. Guy-Smith.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe I'm going to need approximately an

22 hour, depending on what areas Mr. Emmerson is going to cover, the areas

23 that I am no longer going to pursue based upon the examination that has

24 been done thus far --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- and also I am attending the issue of the

2 translation of the document, which has --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it's -- if it's there, fine; if it's not

4 there, then we can't for that purpose --

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understand.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Then I'm going to be addressing -- addressing

8 those issues in a different fashion.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 Mr. Harvey.

11 MR. HARVEY: Obviously, depending on how much ground is covered

12 by my colleagues, I'm expecting 15 to 20 minutes tomorrow.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that brings us altogether to -- well, let's

14 say, close to two and a half hours for Defence.

15 Mr. Di Fazio, could you give us any estimate on how much time you

16 need in re-examination? Of course it's not -- at this moment, I do not

17 expect you to ...

18 MR. DI FAZIO: So far I can indicate - and I don't -- reasonably

19 confident about my estimate, it wouldn't be a lengthy re-examination. I

20 would hope in the order of no more than about 10 to 20 minutes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: 10 to 20 minutes.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I would certainly aim for that and do my utmost to

23 keep it within those parameters.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that would altogether make two and a half

25 hours.

1 Mr. Pappas, of course the Chamber might have a few questions for

2 you as well. I think I would need five minutes, perhaps seven, but ...

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Keeping in mind that a day in court is approximately

5 four hours, looking at the estimates, we -- there's a fair expectation

6 that it would not take us more than three hours. So therefore, without

7 giving a firm promise, but why not because the Chamber never knows what

8 could happen. I mean, we know what questions we would like to put to

9 you, but what unexpected things may arise -- but I think it's a fair

10 expectation of which my personal and professional assessment that we

11 could achieve that, is that it's closer to 98 per cent than to 95

12 per cent. And I have already a bad reputation in pushing other people.

13 That's how it is.

14 Under those circumstances, would you be willing to cooperate

15 with -- to conclude your testimony tomorrow?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much. It saves the Chamber for

18 what we always don't like to do, to give orders. And the Chamber is

19 grateful for your cooperative approach. Thank you.

20 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.

21 MR. EMMERSON:

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15 [Videotape played].

16 "Jeremy Cooke: The Serbs know that they have the upper hand and

17 they're determined to press home the advantage --"

18 MR. EMMERSON: Is there a problem?

19 [Videotape played].

20 "Jeremy Cooke: The Serbs know that they have the upper hand and

21 they're determined to press home the advantage. This time it was the

22 village of Glodjane in flames, shelled and machine-gunned into

23 submission. On the other side, the KLA allowed us exclusive access to

24 their new front line. They're nervous but determined. Some of these men

25 come from this village. They know what's happened up ahead and that they

1 now lie directly in the path of the Serb offensive which has already

2 removed the rebel fighters from most of their strongholds in Kosovo. The

3 waiting is tense.

4 "But already it's clear that they won't have to wait long. The

5 shells are now falling on Rznic. Against artillery, there's little that

6 the KLA has been able to do but run. All this is happening while both

7 sides consider peace proposals and the international community struggles

8 to find a way forward.

9 "Despite the international diplomacy the situation on the ground

10 remains unchanged. The Serbs are still pressing their offensive, the KLA

11 still defending their villages and communities.

12 "The Serbs of course don't see it that way. They insist that the

13 rebel fighters are the problem, and without them so much misery and

14 destruction could have been avoided. Here it's the paramilitary police

15 that are bearing down on the KLA. In other places we saw heavily armed

16 units of the Army of Yugoslavia. The Serbs say they now regard this as a

17 mopping-up operation. For the KLA it's becoming a battle for survival.

18 When there is fighting there are of course more refugees. Almost 200.000

19 people have been made homeless by this conflict. The aid agencies have

20 been hoping that they would return to their villages. What's happened

21 today makes that a very distant prospect.

22 "Jeremy Cooke, BBC News, Rznic, Kosovo."

23 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you. That's the end of the footage.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Pappas, a number of questions about that, if I may.

25 That film, I suggest, shows the situation that you were driving into the

1 day after you were there. Do you recognise the Serbian paramilitary

2 police that you saw in that film? I don't mean, of course, do you

3 recognise the individuals, but do you recognise the uniform?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you see any Serb forces on the ground on the 11th?

6 A. No, we were approaching from the other side.

7 Q. From which side?

8 A. We were estimating they were on the south of Rznic, and we were

9 coming from north.

10 Q. Yes. So it wasn't just shelling. In order for this to have

11 occurred the following day, it must be the position, must it not, that

12 the Serb ground troops were closing in on Rznic and Gllogjan as you drove

13 in?

14 A. It must be. That's were our impression, too.

15 Q. Yes. Can we look, please, behind tab 14 at the ECMM's assessment

16 of the aftermath of that --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so.

18 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, just for the completeness of the

20 record, I think there was no simultaneous translation --

21 MR. EMMERSON: I have a transcript --

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- in French -- yes, but of course the problem is

23 that the transcript in French is made on the basis of the

24 audio-recording, and since there's no -- we will have to find one way or

25 the other to get this into the -- finally also in the French transcript.

1 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.

2 JUDGE ORIE: And since there was no simultaneous translation into

3 French, I'd like to verify whether there was B/C/S or Kosovar

4 translation, so that the accused were in a situation to follow what has

5 been said in English.

6 MR. EMMERSON: I see nodding in the dock.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see two times nodding yes.

8 Mr. Haradinaj, I have not.

9 MR. EMMERSON: He was listening in English.

10 JUDGE ORIE: He was listening in English. Yes.

11 Then it's only a problem for the French transcript. We'll try to

12 resolve that at a later stage.

13 I think, as a matter of fact, did you provide a transcript of the

14 footage to the booth?

15 MR. EMMERSON: No.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited to do that, because I think the

17 procedure was that you provide in advance the text of the footage and

18 transcript to the booth, that then one of the interpreters follows what

19 has been said because for such video footages translation is always

20 behind, so that one of the interpreters focuses on translating on the

21 basis of what is written.

22 MR. EMMERSON: I see.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Whereas, the other interpreter checks whether what

24 is written really reflects what is said --

25 MR. EMMERSON: In that case, that is our fault. We have multiple

1 copies of the English transcript available.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you, please, always provide so that we

3 can follow this procedure in future and have a complete record. I don't

4 know, as a matter of fact, how to repair what has been done until now,

5 but I'm at least happy that it's only the French transcript and not the

6 accused that missed that portion of the -- of the text.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

9 MR. EMMERSON:

10 Q. We can turn now --

11 MR. EMMERSON: And for this, we do need to be back in private

12 session.

13 Q. If we could turn to tab 14, please.

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2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

4 MR. EMMERSON:

5 Q. First of all, I want to ask you, in relation to this book, about

6 the moment when you made the decision to go from Irzniq to Gllogjan.

7 Now, you described it earlier on, and Mr. Di Fazio put it to you that you

8 were compelled to go to Gllogjan.

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. That's your recollection, is it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you turn to page 3 of this extract, please?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And to the second paragraph, and I'll read it slowly for the

15 record.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. This describes the group of men who approached you in Irzniq:

18 "The group of men were travelling using a jeep and a number of

19 cars, including a souped-up black Mercedes. The Mercedes was driven by a

20 young dark-haired man wearing a black jump-suit and bearing a

21 trouser-holstered 9-millimetre Luger on his chest. He seemed to be the

22 leader if that made any difference in a group like this. They had

23 surrounded our vehicle and suggested that we accompany them to meet their

24 commander. We went into a brief huddle. I was in favour of meeting this

25 commander, but one thing bothered me: The Serb gun-fire. It was coming

1 from not all that far away. Facing the team, I told them that we should

2 not stay too long with the commander as rifle-fire is inordinately better

3 aimed than mortars. We followed the Mercedes escorted by other -- by the

4 other cars."

5 Pausing there. Mr. Kaufmann seems to be saying in his book that

6 you had a discussion about whether to go to Gllogjan, and that he was in

7 favour of going to meet the KLA commander and chose voluntarily to do so?

8 A. That was not the case.

9 Q. Do you accept that that is what he seems to be saying?

10 A. That is what he seems to be said, yes.

11 Q. So are you saying there was no discussion with him where you

12 talked about --

13 A. No discussion.

14 Q. -- the pros and cons?

15 A. No.

16 Q. I see. A little further down, the next paragraph - and this is

17 just to give a flavour of his assessment of the incident. I want to see

18 if you think this is a fair reflection of what happened that day.

19 First of all, looking at the first two sentences there on page 3,

20 last paragraph:

21 "In contrast to us, the men we were following had been under

22 Serbian fire for days. Their nerves were clearly shot and suddenly their

23 fuses blew."

24 He then goes on to give a description of the incident and what

25 took place, which is not markedly different from yours. But may I take

1 you to page 6, please, and to the last two paragraphs. He says:

2 "Obviously, I have continued to think over that critical

3 situation in Gllogjan and how it came about. The fact was that in

4 investigating what was going on around Pec, we inadvertently stumbled on

5 a hornet's nest. Unfortunately all this happened at a time when the most

6 cool-headed of the horde, their leader, was not present. I came to the

7 conclusion that if you accept jobs like this abroad in the service of the

8 EU or UN, you can expect on occasion to be faced with situations like

9 this one. When on the evening of those unforgettable events we got back

10 to the Hotel Dypon in Pec, the experiences of that morning had already

11 faded, and I for one felt more as if I had been embroiled in an adventure

12 than a very acute danger."

13 I'm pausing there, Mr. Pappas. First of all, it's right, isn't

14 it, that you were encountering men who had been under Serbian fire for

15 days?

16 A. Yes, that's true.

17 Q. Whose lives were at risk on a daily basis?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you and your team come driving straight into the middle of

20 this zone in a white Land Rover bearing a Greek flag?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You've been attacked by Serb forces in the past who have directly

23 tried to drive you off the road, so you know what the risks are. Is that

24 right?

25 A. That was on the first time that we were driving off the road --

1 Q. Pardon?

2 A. It was on the first time we were driving off the road.

3 Q. No, I understand that.

4 A. With the same car.

5 Q. But when Mr. Kaufmann says that, in effect, incidents like this

6 are something of an occupational hazard, if you're going to take in your

7 own hands to drive right into the middle of a war zone --

8 A. That was something from his point of view.

9 Q. Do you think that if you'd known what Team Prizren knew, which

10 was that the KLA by then had come to suspect the international observers

11 of collaborating and passing information to the Serbs, do you think that

12 would have affected the decision as to whether you'd gone in, in the way

13 you do?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Can I ask you to turn to page 5 for a moment, where Mr. Kaufmann

16 describes the incident where you were in the room awaiting the arrival of

17 Mr. Haradinaj. You look at the paragraph beginning: "Penti" --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- and just about halfway down, can you find a sentence that

20 begins halfway across the page:

21 "As I smoked my cigarette without coughing ..."?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, could you give us an opportunity to

24 find that in the original?

25 MR. EMMERSON: I'll do my best.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think I found it.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. EMMERSON:

5 Q. "As I smoked my cigarette without coughing and at the same time

6 reassured my team darkly that there would still be no smoking in the TV

7 room, the mood lifted. Even our Greek member Achilleas relaxed a little.

8 Like all Greeks, he was uncompromisingly pro-Serb in this dispute and was

9 always re-affirming that he wanted nothing to do with the KLA because all

10 Greeks were at risk."

11 Do you see that passage?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And just a little bit at the very bottom of the page, can you see

14 the last sentence there:

15 "It was Achilleas, the young Greek member of our team who

16 eschewed the KLA like the devil eschews holy water."

17 Do you see that passage there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Obviously this is the language of a person writing a book rather

20 than a report or giving testimony. But was there a sense as between you

21 that he felt that you were uncompromisingly pro-Serb?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. He never expressed that view to you?

24 A. Never.

25 Q. But it was a problem you did encounter because of your;

1 nationality wasn't it, from time to time?

2 A. Problem, not. I was listening what are you doing here like Serb

3 spy, but I don't know why they were saying that.

4 Q. Like Serb spy. People were accusing you of being a Serb spy?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I mean --

7 A. But they beat the interpreter, Albanian --

8 Q. I understand.

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. I understand that. And in fact, they didn't -- no violence was

11 used against you personally at all?

12 A. No, no.

13 Q. Then if we can just come to his description of the conduct of

14 Mr. Haradinaj. If you could turn to page 6 and to how he described the

15 incident afterwards. Perhaps you could pick it up on the third paragraph

16 down and when you had been released by Mr. Haradinaj and were returning

17 to your jeep.

18 He says: "Before we could get in, the commander inspected our

19 jeep more closely, at which point, to my annoyance, he came across the

20 mini M, our satellite phone that we had stowed under the back seat.

21 Nothing could have been" -- I'm sorry. "Nothing could have held more

22 interest for these KLA outlaws who spent their time only in areas without

23 phone lines. From his contemplative look I could tell that the commander

24 was thinking just that but he shook his head and waved his hand to show

25 that we were going to be able to take our 10.000 mark satellite phone

1 with us. Then he took a covetous look at my map of the Pec area. Maps

2 that I take out into the field usually have no annotations beyond my

3 markings showing which streets are mined. It was a detailed military map

4 covering the Djakovica area as far as Klina with a plastic coating on

5 both sides. I had stuck it together in Pristina. Once again I saw the

6 look on his face and reminded myself that this man had just got us out of

7 a very difficult situation. In an attack of generosity I gave it to him

8 as a gift."

9 Do you remember that part of the incident?

10 A. You mean the map?

11 Q. And the Motorola phone.

12 A. I -- I remember that we were saying afterwards in the car that

13 they didn't take the phones, yes, we have two of them. But I don't

14 remember if he saw it.

15 Q. Do you remember the map being given --

16 A. Map yes.

17 Q. -- as a gift to him?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And just a couple of lines further down:

20 "When we finally got back into our jeep, I said to him: After

21 all that we didn't want to end up getting caught in Serb cross-fire. So

22 of all people he sent the black jump-suited man out in front of us in his

23 Mercedes. The Mercedes led us down secret back roads until we were back

24 on to safe ground."

25 Do you remember the fact that you were being given an escort to

1 protect you against Serb cross-fire?

2 A. That was not the case.

3 Q. That was not the case?

4 A. We were given an escort, but because Haradinaj offered to give an

5 escort.

6 Q. Yes, he offered to give the escort --

7 A. We didn't ask escort in order not to get in cross-fire because we

8 knew the way back north was empty.

9 Q. So what Mr. Kaufmann says here is not true?

10 A. Most of them, yeah.

11 Q. I see.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --

13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock.

15 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I was just asking one or two concluding

16 question or one question --

17 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is we have to finish really in time, so

18 if there's one question --

19 MR. EMMERSON: No, I can stop now. I can stop now.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 Mr. Pappas, we'd like to see you back tomorrow at quarter past

22 2.00, because we'll adjourn until then. And we'd like to see you in this

23 same courtroom tomorrow, the 16th of May.

24 We stand adjourned.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

2 May, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.

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