Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4698

1 Thursday, 24 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 The Chamber was informed that Mr. Guy-Smith would, as matters

12 stand now, would have no questions. The Chamber has decided that

13 Mr. Emmerson gets the five minutes he asked for, and the Chamber

14 understood that you, Mr. Harvey, will use approximately 15 to 20 minutes

15 for cross-examination of the witness.

16 MR. HARVEY: That's right, Your Honour. Mr. Crosland should be

17 out of here in time for coffee.

18 MR. EMMERSON: Mr. Re's indicated on current form the

19 re-examination of approximately a similar to Mr. Harvey so Your Honour has

20 an idea.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Crosland, that gives you an impression of

22 what you could expect for this morning.

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Unless you are spoiling the schedule, which of

25 course -- you just have to answer the question. If that takes two hours,

Page 4699

1 Mr. Crosland, we accept that.

2 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We would like to hear your evidence; but before you

4 give that evidence, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the

5 solemn declaration you gave on the 19th of April in this court.

6 THE WITNESS: I understand.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Madam Registrar, I wonder if you could be kind

9 enough to pull up P45 on the screen, and if Colonel Crosland could be

10 given the green volume at behind tab 3. It is the same image.


12 Cross-examined by Mr. Emmerson: [Continued]

13 Q. You can see the image on the screen. If you need to look at the

14 hard copy, it's mind tab 3. I'd like to ask you to make some markings on

15 the screen, and if Madam Usher could assist you to make markings. In

16 light of the answers you gave yesterday, I'm not going to ask you to mark

17 the specific positions of the bodies you saw floating because you gave

18 some descriptions and evidence about that in chief.

19 Do you see the road -- the track that moves off from almost the

20 middle of the picture to the right-hand side?

21 A. Yes, I do, yes.

22 Q. Is that the track by which you approached?

23 A. I suspect it was, sir. The reason I'm hesitating is to try and

24 orientate.

25 Q. I think if I can help you --

Page 4700

1 A. We came -- I beg your pardon. We came in -- I think it probably

2 was that track. I'm trying not to confuse it with the visit to the place

3 with Lord Ashdown.

4 Q. Yes. I understand because you went there twice. Can I be clear

5 one or two matters on this then. I won't ask you to mark that given that

6 response. Do you see to the -- above on the photograph, above that track

7 which I think would be south on the map, there are rows of bushes or what

8 look like bushes?

9 A. Yes, I do, sir, yeah.

10 Q. Was anything said to you by the Serb officials about having seen

11 bodies in that area?

12 A. Not that I can recall, sir, no.

13 Q. Was anything said to you by the Serb officials about having found

14 bodies, including the body of a woman and child, inside the farm buildings

15 that you can see rather indistinctly in the top right-hand quadrant of

16 that photograph?

17 A. I don't recall anything -- any information of that sort, no, sir.

18 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's all I need to ask you then about that

19 photograph, and then I have one other topic to ask you about and it's

20 this. You gave some evidence in the Limaj case, and we have your

21 transcript, about the fact that from time to time bodies of civilians

22 would be found, either by the side of the road or in various locations, in

23 different parts of Kosovo.

24 First of all, is that something which also occurred in the

25 Dukagjini region from time to time?

Page 4701

1 A. I think we did or we were asked to go and visit where bodies had

2 been left by the side of the road. If I recall rightly, I think there was

3 at least one instance outside of -- on the Pec-Pristina road closer very

4 much closer to Pec, and I think maybe down at Rakovina, north, north-east

5 of Djakovica was another occasion.

6 Q. I just want, if I may, to clarify your understanding of the

7 position in relation to incidents of that sort by putting to you the

8 substance of one or two comments that you've made about it in the past.

9 First of all, is it right that it was generally difficult to assess who

10 was responsible for those killings?

11 A. Absolutely, yes.

12 Q. There were rumours to suggest that Serbs were the perpetrators as

13 well as rumours to suggest the reverse?

14 A. Both rumours were abounded, depending on who you were talking to,

15 yes, correct.

16 Q. And is it right that you took the view some of these crimes might

17 be related to ordinary criminal activity or mafia activity associated with

18 Peje or Pec?

19 A. That's correct, sir, yes.

20 Q. And also that you would always have in mind the fact that blood

21 vengeance or blood feuds were a factor that often resulted in deaths in

22 Kosovo?

23 A. That is also correct, and I think it was a point one tried to

24 impress upon people that this was a way of life, whether we liked it or

25 not.

Page 4702

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Those are my questions.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.

4 In view of the fact that Mr. Guy-Smith has no questions,

5 Mr. Harvey you'll now have an opportunity to cross-examine Mr. Crosland.

6 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:

8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Crosland.

9 A. Good morning, sir.

10 Q. I represent Lahi Brahimaj, who is the gentleman sitting

11 immediately behind me. Just a couple of questions essentially. I'd like

12 to focus on your role in looking for information about General Staffs.

13 Would it be fair to say that as the Defence Attache you had a very good

14 knowledge of the operations of the General Staff of the Serb army, the

15 Yugoslav Army?

16 A. With respect, sir, that's a very wide-ranging question. I was

17 accredited, as you correctly indicated, to the Vojska Jugoslavije. Our

18 business, whether formal or informal or social, was controlled by the

19 foreign liaison service, a part of the General Staff. And as is usual in

20 most countries, the Defence Attache element would be briefed by the

21 General Staff, as appropriate to the situation which arose at the time.

22 So, yes, I was in contact with the General Staff.

23 Q. And one of your functions was to obtain as much information as you

24 could about the operations of the Serb security forces, both army and the

25 various wings of the police on the ground in Kosovo, that's -- I think

Page 4703

1 you've testified to already?

2 A. Yes. By dint of, I was allowed access to these areas, and I thinkI

3 have indicated in my previous statements that this I don't think is usual,

4 possibly because we attempted to give a fair and broad picture of what was

5 going on in Kosovo itself and possibly it was of use to the Vojska

6 Jugoslavije General Staff in attempting to sort this problem out.

7 Q. In reporting, as you did, extensively to your own government on

8 what you found on the ground and what you learned from your contacts with

9 the Serbian forces, Yugoslav forces, you were also concerned, as you've

10 told us, to get as much reliable information as you could about the other

11 side in Kosovo; namely, the KLA?

12 A. That is correct, sir, in order to try and give a more balanced

13 picture of this problem that initiated, as I said already, in 1996/1997,

14 and then it came in -- began in earnest in 1998 and into 1999.

15 Q. During the 1998 period with which we're concerned primarily here,

16 that's March through to the end of September, you've told us you made

17 numerous visits to Kosovo there almost once a week I think. And during

18 that time, did you attempt to make contact with anything that could be

19 called a General Staff on the side of the KLA?

20 A. We visited several KLA headquarters; and in these headquarters, I

21 think Crni Lug, Malisevo, and obviously in the Dukadjin area, Glodjane, we

22 met several people who were purported to be of General Staff rank. At

23 that time information as to the exact nature of the background structure

24 of the KLA was fairly vague.

25 Q. You've made a number of statements in this case. I'm not going to

Page 4704

1 take you through them specifically, but would you accept this line from a

2 statement that you gave in June of 2006: "The KLA was organised, but to

3 call the body at the top a 'General Staff' might be misnaming it."

4 A. The phrase is correct; and as I've said in other statements, I'm

5 always having had to carry out various operations against other

6 counter-revolutionary forces. One is never very keen to give them more

7 credit than they may or may not have and to try and work on facts rather

8 than on fiction, but that is my own personal view, not a particularly a

9 Ministry of Defence view.

10 But one is trying to, as I said, keep things in perspective; and

11 if the situation develops and you can see where the developments are

12 going, then obviously one applies common sense and says, Okay, we now

13 have - I think I called it - a fledgling organisation. But during 1998,

14 it became a much more organised operation.

15 Q. You've indicated on many occasions that Kosovo was a very fluid

16 situation throughout much of 1998. You would confirm that, I take it?

17 A. That's correct, sir, yes.

18 Q. The KLA suffered a number of very substantial reversals,

19 particularly through the period May to September of 1998. Would you agree

20 with that as well?

21 A. As we described yesterday in court, that is when the Serbs mounted

22 I suppose one of their first major offensives, yes.

23 Q. And was it your view that the KLA was not tactically

24 well-organised to resist the -- the might of those Serb offensives?

25 A. I think, sir, it was quite clear from the documents produced

Page 4705

1 yesterday that the Serbs had the potential overwhelming forces to have

2 mounted any operation they wished. I can't answer the question as to why

3 they did not do that, but I think I would agree that the Serbs had the

4 capability.

5 Q. Would you also agree that the KLA only really started to regroup

6 in a reasonably organised fashion - and I understand that's obviously a

7 matter of definition - but in a reasonably organised fashion some time

8 after the major offensive of September of 1998?

9 A. Yes, I would agree with that and I think I've made that statement.

10 It seemed that they had a resupply of both men and materiel, and we saw a

11 growing -- confidence may be the wrong word, but certainly an ability to

12 stand their ground, again, against far superior forces or potentially far

13 superior forces.

14 Q. Did you ever meet anybody who you were told was the Chief of the

15 KLA General Staff during this period? Again, I'm dealing March through

16 September.

17 A. Not that I can recall, sir, no.

18 Q. Did you --

19 A. Not as specifically saying he was the Chief of the General Staff,

20 no. I don't recall that.

21 Q. Did you know the name of the KLA's Chief of General Staff at that

22 time?

23 A. Whether General Ceku, as he then was, I don't know. That was a

24 name that was bandied about, but I don't think with any great credibility

25 from my level, and I stress from my level.

Page 4706

1 Q. I understand also that I'm taxing a very good memory; but over a

2 long period of time, it may be difficult to remember who was in what

3 position at what stage. I see you nodding?

4 A. That's correct, sir, yeah.

5 Q. You said in one of your other statements: "Based on my dealings

6 with the KLA and knowledge of many of their operations, I do not think

7 that its General Staff had particularly effective control over the

8 organisation."

9 Does that summarize the view that you've really already just given

10 us this morning, sir?

11 A. I think I would agree with that statement, based on the sightings

12 that we had of the KLA, which is perhaps difficult for the Court to

13 understand. You are operating in a very demanding and quite dangerous

14 situation in which, not unnaturally, when I was driving around in a red or

15 maroon Defender with a big Union Jack all over it, it was fairly easy to

16 recognise and, therefore, could quite easily lead a trail to a possible

17 KLA headquarters which the Serbs could well have followed up.

18 And, therefore, meetings were difficult to plan, and the KLA were

19 naturally quite secretive and understandably so about their operations and

20 the personnel who were controlling these operations. And so I go back to

21 the point I made initially, that the organisation of battle of the KLA,

22 from my point of view, was actually very quite difficult to come across.

23 One came across various commanders, as I've indicated in my reports, who

24 controlled areas. And I think at the time, if my memory is correct, they

25 themselves indicated that they were not on their own, but there was not a

Page 4707

1 great deal of coordinated control at that particular time. Now, I may be

2 wrong in that assessment.

3 Q. It would certainly be my submission that you're absolutely right

4 in that assessment, but could I just take you one stage further. In

5 another of your statements, you made this observation: "I am unaware of

6 the existence of any KLA doctrine or the ability of the organisation to

7 impose discipline, especially that related to criminal acts and their

8 prevention; nor am I aware whether any KLA commanders ever ordered

9 criminal attacks."

10 Does that sound familiar, and is that something you stand by

11 today, sir?

12 A. Yes. Yes, I would stand by that particular statement. I think

13 the military action and criminal activity were undoubtedly interwoven, as

14 we all know, within the Albanian society. The control, as I've indicated,

15 is probably very difficult to -- or certainly from my point of view, very

16 difficult to ascertain.

17 Q. But, again, you also stand by the point that you are not aware

18 whether any KLA commanders ever did order criminal attacks?

19 A. No. I can't specifically state that, no.

20 Q. Thank you. You also, I think, indicated that at an early stage,

21 relatively speaking, you did visit a place called Jablanica. Is that

22 correct?

23 A. The reason I'm hesitating, sir, is because I think there are

24 actually two Jablanicas, so I'm not certain which one.

25 Q. You're quite right, there are.

Page 4708

1 A. Though there may well be more, but there are at least two, so

2 which one are you indicating, sir?

3 Q. Well, I would be indicating the one which was on a main supply

4 route for the KLA, coming from the Albanian border through on into

5 Drenica. Does that ring a bell with you?

6 A. If it's the Jablanica up towards the area of Klina or not that far

7 from Klina, then I do recall I think we visited it, yes.

8 Q. Perhaps we better have the map in front of us.

9 MR. HARVEY: Could we have P10, please.

10 [Microphone not activated]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please.

12 MR. HARVEY: Sorry. Thank you.

13 Q. And if you look towards the right-hand east side of the map,

14 north-east quadrant, do you see Jablanica there? There's a large O.

15 MR. HARVEY: Yes. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, sir, yeah.


18 Q. That's the one to which I'm referring. To your recollection, is

19 that the one that you believe that you visited?

20 A. I think it is, sir, yeah. I may be mistaken, but I think, yeah.

21 Q. And, please, tell me if this is something that is too far back for

22 you to have any clear recollection of, but do you recall whether there was

23 a KLA presence at the time that you visited that Jablanica?

24 A. If it's the area that we visited, there were a few KLA there, as I

25 recall; but I, as I said - and forgive me - I may be mistaken.

Page 4709

1 Q. Do you remember approximately when it was you made that visit,

2 sir?

3 A. I think - and this is a guesstimate - sometime in March, April,

4 May. I think it -- I think it came about from having visited people in

5 the Drenica, Vocnjak, and then we moved down towards this one, I think,

6 but I may be mistaken. I can't be more accurate than that, I'm afraid.

7 Q. That's fair. Do you recall making this statement: "I do not

8 remember whether I was ever told that there were detention camps in

9 Glodjane or Jablanica"?

10 A. I think I recall making that statement, and I would stand by that

11 particular statement, sir.

12 Q. You recall that you don't recall is what it comes to?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Thank you very much indeed, Colonel Crosland. I have no further

15 questions.

16 A. Thank you, sir.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

18 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, before Mr. Re re-examines, there is

19 one answer that the witness gave on page 7, lines 11 and 12, which in my

20 submission would benefit from clarification. In answering Mr. Harvey's

21 question at lines 11 and 12, Colonel Crosland drew a distinction between

22 the KLA as a fledgling organisation, a description he's used on a number

23 of occasions, and the KLA as a much more organised operation, and

24 indicated that it was during 1998 that it changed from one to the other.

25 And I wonder if it might be of assistance to the Trial Chamber to have

Page 4710

1 Colonel Crosland say when it was during 1998 that that transition was

2 effected in his view.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if it is possible to give a point in time.

4 Mr. Crosland.

5 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I think I made a statement, and I

6 think the time I said that I perceived a more organised element was

7 probably in the earlier autumn, September/October time. I think that -- I

8 think that ties-in with my previous statement.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's also you have no reason at this

10 moment to deviate in any way from the previous statement?

11 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, I don't. No.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Re, I do understand that there is need to

13 re-examine the witness. You have an opportunity to do so.

14 Re-examination by Mr. Re:

15 Q. Good morning again, Colonel Crosland. I have several things I

16 wish to ask you about, following your cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson

17 yesterday. The first thing, if you could perhaps turn to a document which

18 is labelled, which is behind tab 14 there, which is actually Exhibit D70.

19 You were asked some questions about this particular document yesterday.

20 MR. RE: It's a VJ document, and it can be publicly displayed.

21 MR. EMMERSON: Can I indicate for Mr. Re's assistance and for the

22 assistance of Your Honours and the witness, we've now got the official

23 translation available, and I think it's been uploaded into the system and

24 will be substituted for the draft translation that exists. I was going to

25 deal with that at housekeeping at the end; but if Mr. Re is going to

Page 4711

1 cross-examine -- I'm sorry, re-examine in relation to that document, it

2 may be of assistance to everybody to have the final translation.

3 MR. RE: I'd be very grateful. Is there a hard copy which I could

4 use?

5 MR. EMMERSON: We have several hard copies available.

6 MR. RE: Thanks.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Perhaps I can hand three for the Chamber, two for

8 the registry, one for the witness, and one for Mr. Re. There will not at

9 the moment be copies for the translators, but I'm -- it may be that Madam

10 Registrar has already made the substitution so that the correct

11 translation will appear on the screen.

12 MR. RE: Yes. Thank you.

13 Q. Colonel, have you --

14 A. I've got the document, sir.

15 Q. -- the new or the final translation.

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. I want to take you to paragraph 1, which is on the first page, and

18 where it says: "Task: In coordinated action with neighbouring forces of

19 the Republic of Serbia MUP break up Siptar/Albanian/DTG/sabotage and

20 terrorist groups/and secure supply routes for the VJ units."

21 This is a document, an order, issued on the 16th May 1998 by

22 Colonel Dragan Zivanovic, Chief of Staff of the 125th Motorised Brigade.

23 The question is: What is the significance of this particular task, that

24 is, to secure supply routes for VJ units in terms of the operations you

25 observed and the conflicts you observed between the KLA and the Serbian

Page 4712

1 forces in that period?

2 A. I think, as I've indicated, sir, that there are very view routes,

3 Tarmac routes, through the area of Kosovo; and in particular in the

4 western area of the province, the major route north to south was from Pec

5 through Decani, Djakovica, and down to Prizren. And I presume from -- I

6 presume from this tasking here that this is the secure -- or the task here

7 is to secure this particular supply route as the main supply route to

8 western Kosovo.

9 Q. What was the significance of that for the VJ in terms of the

10 conflict that was then occurring?

11 A. Sir, as I've indicated to the Court, the border area with Albania

12 was more or less like a sieve, in that men and supplies were coming

13 through from Albania as and when they could get them through; and,

14 therefore, this road back from the border about -- on approximately 20 to

15 25 kilometres from the border, I have called before the red line, along

16 which the Serb security forces attempted to provide a secondary blocking

17 position before the KLA could distribute the supplies onward towards the

18 Drenica and other areas of operation.

19 Q. At 4638 of the transcript yesterday and around that -- around

20 then, Mr. Emmerson asked you about operations that the VJ and the MUP were

21 conducting against the KLA operatives, and he suggested that you would not

22 need to have paramilitary anti-terrorist police on the ground, or at least

23 snipers being able to take shots at KLA operatives. And you answered:

24 "With respect, sir, that is one way of" --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

Page 4713

1 MR. EMMERSON: I think it would be much more helpful if Mr. Re

2 were to take us to the actual question and answer, because the way that

3 that is put, in line 18, is that I suggested that you would not need to

4 have paramilitary anti-terrorist police on the ground, or at least

5 snipers. Now, I'm not quite sure even what the grammar of that sentence

6 means.


8 MR. RE: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any objection against the way in which

10 previous testimony is reflected, the party putting the question to the

11 witness is invited to quote literally. If you have the lines, Mr. Re, I

12 have the text in front of me.

13 MR. RE: I simply put the not before -- I'll rephrase it.

14 Q. The question you were asked was: "You would need, would you not,

15 either to have paramilitary anti-terrorist police operating on the ground,

16 or at the very least snipers to take shots at the KLA operatives?"

17 And you answered: "With respect, sir, that's one way of doing it.

18 There are many ways of doing an encircling document."

19 What are the other ways, based upon your experience in conflicts

20 and counter-insurgency, of doing an encirclement?

21 A. So, again, it's a very wide question. The tactics involved in

22 dealing with counter-insurgency go from the very simple to the extremely

23 complex, based on intelligence and/or the chance meeting with

24 counter-insurgency forces. I think the point I was trying to make to

25 Mr. Emmerson is that snipers are useful if you have the opportunity

Page 4714

1 target. If you do not encircle an area which you are attempting to

2 assault or maybe just to go and visit and find intelligence, then if

3 people are frightened, and many people were frightened in Kosovo, they

4 would then run away, whether they were actively involved with the KLA or

5 not. So I don't know whether I've helped the answer or complicated it, to

6 be honest.

7 Q. Your answer went on that there was what you would call the

8 heavy -- "the very heavy option of using ordinary troops or perhaps a more

9 precise operation of encircling with the use of aircraft and helicopters,

10 rather than what I would call a direct assault, which was more likely the

11 norm of the Serbian forces."

12 What I'd like you to do is expand a little on that where you said:

13 "Which was more likely the norm of the Serbian forces." What do you mean

14 by the "norm of the Serbian forces" in terms of what you observed and

15 experienced in your visits to Kosovo and the intelligence information you

16 received about what the Serbian forces were doing?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Before Mr. Crosland answers this question, I'd like

18 to be perfectly clear about what was "more likely the norm," because the

19 answer was "the very heavy option of using ordinary troops or perhaps a

20 more precise option of encircling with the use of aircraft and

21 helicopters, rather than what I would call a direct assault, which was

22 more likely the norm of the Serbian forces."

23 Now, was the direct assault more likely the norm of the Serbian

24 forces or was it the very heavy option using ordinary troops or perhaps a

25 more precise operation of encircling with the use of aircraft and

Page 4715

1 helicopters, was that more likely the norm of Serbian forces? I'd like to

2 know exactly what you meant before you further explain what exactly you

3 meant by "the norm of the Serbian forces."

4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. I think from my reports and

5 from the orders we have seen from the Vojska Jugoslavije, there were very

6 heavy and direct forces used to mount most of these operations, which also

7 encompassed special forces from both the VJ and from the MUP and the RDB.

8 The Serbs had very few helicopters, and I recall only seeing one

9 during my time in Kosovo. So that particular type of operation was not

10 available to them. They, therefore, resorted to what I would call a very

11 heavy-handed operation, which normally involved artillery or indirect

12 mortar fire as a prelude to any assault which had the effect of chasing

13 out the civilian population in most cases without any casualties, although

14 this was difficult to ascertain.

15 But from the displaced personnel that we talked to, most villagers

16 seemed to get away before the assault proper went into the objective area.

17 And so I think I would say that the majority of the assaults were heavy

18 and direct, using the variety of forces that I have indicated, sir.

19 MR. RE:

20 Q. And how did you assess the overall effectiveness of those tactics

21 used by the Serb forces against the KLA?

22 A. As I think I've said on many occasions, the wanton destruction by

23 Serb security forces throughout the province of Kosovo can only have

24 driven the civilian population against their activities, whether they were

25 either for the KLA or not. But if your house is burned down, your petrol

Page 4716

1 station ravaged, your crops burned, your livestock shot, I don't think it

2 endears you to the people doing these actions.

3 Q. If you can turn to --

4 MR. RE: Unless Your Honours have anything more on that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I have a long question which is already for a

6 long time on my mind, as a matter of fact, and I tried to find a proper

7 definition.

8 You, as many others, are using the word or the expression

9 "artillery." Now, many people in the past have been able to tell me that

10 certain weaponry was artillery, but where exactly artillery stops and

11 becomes something else. So a clear definition until now, I don't recall

12 that I ever received that. But I'll try again since you're using the

13 expression "artillery," Mr. Crosland. Could you help me out?

14 THE WITNESS: I will try, Your Honour. I'm not an artillery man.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's the beginning of the answer of almost

16 everyone.

17 Please proceed.

18 THE WITNESS: And you raise an interesting question because the

19 Serbian word differentiates itself between various calibres, but I will

20 not go into that detail because I think it will ...

21 Artillery, in my experience and knowledge, is designed to be fired

22 from a calibre of approximately 100-millimetre upwards to 155-millimetre,

23 where in the case of 155-millimetre projectile, which has got a huge

24 range, can produce a hole in the ground about 5 metres by 5 metres. So

25 you have got a considerable -- it's a 90-pound shell, I think, and it will

Page 4717

1 do considerable damage to, obviously, human beings and property.

2 The smaller calibres from 105 upwards are obviously producing,

3 still damaging effects, particularly if fired directly at housing or at

4 human beings, obviously. But artillery is used usually in three- or

5 six-gun groups so that you have what we call a battery or a half-battery

6 ability to fire, and it's an area weapon. It is precise, but it also has

7 a spread of range, which means if you aimed it at a village, you would hit

8 several houses within that village itself, and that may be spread over a

9 hundred metres or more.

10 It depends on the equipment, how well the equipment is maintained

11 and where the equipment is firing from, if it is in a proper location,

12 dug-in, and the guns are what we call well surveyed in. So they are

13 stable; and when they are fired, they don't move around too much. The

14 movement of these guns will, obviously, give you a further spread of shot

15 into the target area.

16 Above 155-millimetre, as far as I'm aware, there may be one or two

17 other calibres; but in this particular confrontation, we then went to

18 rocket-propelled artillery, which is 122-millimetre, a smaller calibre,

19 but with a longer range, but also with the same degree of spread at the

20 objective end.

21 I hope that helps, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that artillery is characterised

23 more or less by calibre, use of the weaponry, effect. I'm just

24 summarizing.

25 THE WITNESS: It's what we call indirect fire, sir.

Page 4718


2 THE WITNESS: It's controlled by people forward. It can be used

3 in a direct role. If you can see the target, you can then fire directly

4 at it. But it's what we call line of sight. So if there is a hill in the

5 way, you have to elevate the barrel to allow you to fire over the hill.

6 And we have mortars that are then smaller calibre than that to be able to

7 fire over a hill or whatever happens to be in the way of the line of

8 sight.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's a combination of calibre, use, effect,

10 and, of course, distance related to calibre, which finally qualifies the

11 use of certain weaponry as artillery?

12 THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. Colonel Crosland, can you please turn to tab 24 in the documents,

17 which is D77, which is a report under the hand of Colonel Vladimir

18 Lazarevic, dated the 15th of July, 1998, from the Pristina forward command

19 post to various subordinate units.

20 At page 4645, yesterday, Mr. Emmerson briefly took you to this

21 particular document and referred you to paragraph 7 on the first page,

22 which just says: "From today on for the next seven days, the KLA is

23 planning to attack the VJ in the Radonjic Lake sector as the VJ's

24 deployment there is preventing them from achieving their aims."

25 My question is simply that from reading that document, are you

Page 4719

1 able to say what the Lake Radonjic or Radonjic Lake sector is? I'm just

2 asking you from reading that document, not referring to anything else.

3 A. So from what I understand, the inference is that Lake Radonjic,

4 as was shown yesterday, was a major Serb deployment area. And this,

5 obviously, influenced the ability of the KLA to move through this area as

6 a supply route to further operational areas to the east in the Drenica and

7 beyond. So I could understand the KLA wanting to stir-up problems in the

8 area, to try and break the attention of the Serbian security forces whilst

9 they carried out their own operations.

10 Q. What I'm asking you is just to confine and concentrate on the

11 words "Lake Radonjic" or "Radonjic Lake sector." From that document are

12 you able to say, just looking at the document, what the Lake Radonjic

13 sector actually is, just from looking at the document, nothing else?

14 A. Well, if I understand your question credibility, sir, it was a

15 Serbian VJ deployment area. I'm sorry. I don't quite follow you.

16 Q. From reading the document, can you say what the sector is? Does

17 the document indicate anywhere what the sector actually is and what it's

18 referring to and what area it covers?

19 A. Apart from Lake Radonjic, no.

20 Q. At page 4671, yesterday, Mr. Emmerson asked you about attacks by

21 the Serbian forces on Irzniq and the question was: "But it was your

22 understanding that they would periodically launch and overrun Rznic over

23 that summer period. Is that right?"

24 And you answered: "That's correct, yes."

25 I am after a clarification by what you understood "periodically"

Page 4720

1 to mean.

2 A. I think, sir, we're talking about Prilep and Irzniq. Rznic seems

3 to have crept in somewhere and I don't quite understand, whether that's a

4 misquote on my part --

5 MR. EMMERSON: It's be may helpful for the witness to know it's

6 another pronunciation. Rznic and Irzniq are the same place.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

8 As I said yesterday on many times, sir, when the KLA attacked the

9 main supply route, from Pec through Decani down to Djakovica past Prilep

10 and Irzniq, then there would be retaliatory attacks by the Serb security

11 forces on either an opportunity basis or, as we heard yesterday, in May on

12 a major basis where several axes were in the orders or the written orders,

13 were indicating that units would clear these axes. Now, whether they

14 cleared them or not is open for discussion.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. When you were asked yesterday about your understanding that they

17 would periodically launch and overrun Rznic or Irzniq, what I'm trying to

18 get at is what did you understand by "periodically" when you answered

19 "that's correct."

20 A. Well, I think exactly what I've just said is that the MUP had a

21 check-point on the main road that was hit many times and several people

22 were killed there, and they would retaliate into the surrounding area,

23 which, you know, I would totally understand.

24 Q. And from when you say "overrun," are you saying there's a

25 difference between taking territory and controlling it and overrunning

Page 4721

1 territory?

2 A. Yes, very much, sir. I think I hopefully made -- tried to make

3 clear to the Court that the situation was very fluid throughout this

4 period and ground was -- villages may be attacked, areas of tactical

5 importance may be taken for a short time, and then not held. And ,

6 therefore, the situation ebbed and flowed rather like the tide coming in

7 on the beach.

8 Q. Are you able to say with any precision how many times the Serbian

9 forces overran Irzniq in that period?

10 A. I can't say with any consistency, I mean apart from the fact that

11 in the end both villages were extremely badly damaged, as I've indicated

12 in my reports.

13 Q. Are you able to give an approximation, one, two, 10, 20, five, or

14 whatever?

15 A. Not entirely, sir, because, you know, I physically could not be

16 there throughout the entire period. We saw the damage accumulating

17 throughout 1998 and into 1999, and that was the effect of several assaults

18 that took place. But to try and put a number on it, I'm afraid I cannot,

19 a specific number, no.

20 MR. RE: Do Your Honours have any questions about that?

21 Q. Yesterday Mr. Emmerson asked you about the -- what you observed at

22 the lake when you went there in September -- on the 8th of September,

23 1998. And at page 4681, he reminded you of your essential position that

24 you told the Serb authorities that they needed a -- to provide to the

25 international community evidence of a "clean-gloves" forensic

Page 4722

1 investigation. My follow-up for clarification on that is: Were you aware

2 or what was your understanding of the forensic equipment and facilities

3 available to the Serbs in that area at the time?

4 A. Sir, I have no idea what capability they had. I just asked them

5 that in order to provide prima facie evidence as to who had done this

6 particular act, it would neither help nor hinder their particular cause.

7 But their ability came I presume under the MUP, to whom I was not

8 accredited and, therefore, had no precise knowledge of.

9 Q. You were also shown two documents, two VJ documents yesterday, at

10 tabs 28 and 29. The first one is dated the 7th of August, 1998, and the

11 second one is dated the 10th of August, 1998, and they relate to actions

12 by the Serbian forces against the KLA.

13 If you could turn to tab 29, which is D81 -- 82, I believe, and if

14 you can turn to the first paragraph, it's an order of Lieutenant-General

15 Pavkovic of the 10th of August, 1998, and where it says -- I'll just read

16 the top and the bottom: "I have decided, with MUP and VJ forces, smash

17 the DTS/sabotage-terrorist forces/stronghold and establish control over

18 the general Crnobreg village," et cetera.

19 Then down lines: "With the following aim, by attack and active

20 operations against the flank and the rear, with diversionary operations

21 and support from the VJ BG, smash and pull back the DTS from the

22 Djakovica-Decane-Pec road, then destroy the enemy in the general Crnobreg

23 village-Rznic village-Glodjane village-Babaloc village-Prilep area; and

24 after that, capture this area and prevent further operations by the DTS."

25 What I want to ask you about that is what sort of movement in

Page 4723

1 military terms is that describing? What sort of operation is it

2 describing?

3 A. As I said yesterday, it seems to be what we would call a

4 commander's intent and a prelude to an operation order of a very heavy

5 capability, and I think we then had other details which outlined the

6 battle groups or combat groups that were to take part in this operation.

7 And it appears clear from what General Pavkovic is stating here that he

8 was determined to smash and push back the KLA from various areas, which

9 is, I'm afraid, I suppose, standard military practice.

10 Q. Mr. Emmerson, at page 4657, suggested to you that that was an

11 operation of encirclement, referring to one which you had described

12 earlier. Now, before you answer the question, I want you to have a look

13 at the map of the area - you're looking at D32 - and the areas described

14 in this particular exhibit. And I want you to describe the sort of

15 operation, in terms of a push or an encirclement, the military terminology

16 you would use to describe the actual movement, planned movement of troops?

17 MR. EMMERSON: Again, if Mr. Re is going to quote the transcript,

18 he should quote the witness's answer.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

20 MR. EMMERSON: He should quote the witness's answer. The question

21 was: "This was a question of encirclement, isn't it, of the kind you were

22 describing earlier on."

23 And the answer is: "That appears to be the case, yes, sir, yeah."

24 MR. RE: I don't think there's any dispute about that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I did not find where Mr. Re was not properly

Page 4724

1 reflecting the testimony, but this is now on the record so, therefore,

2 everyone agrees what the question was and what the answer was yesterday.

3 The question today put to you by Mr. Re needs to be answered as

4 well. Could you give an answer.

5 THE WITNESS: I will try, Your Honour, yes. I'm a bit puzzled but

6 now I am unclear.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If the question is not clear enough, we'll invite

8 Mr. Re to make it more clear.

9 THE WITNESS: I had hoped that the answer I gave yesterday -- the

10 commander's aims, as stated here, are, in my opinion, fairly clear. Now,

11 there is a difference between the commander's intent, as the general

12 commanding his troops, and as to what actually happens on the ground,

13 which is quite natural. So the commander's intent is to carry out a major

14 operation in this area to try and smash, in his words, the KLA influence

15 within the area.

16 Now, that, quite clearly, did not happen on the ground because, as

17 I've attempted to inform the Court, the Serb security forces, for whatever

18 reason, did not manage to hold or wish to hold ground that -- and there is

19 certainly ground there which does dominate the area. But by purely

20 sitting in an area without actively patrolling and controlling the area by

21 vehicle check-points, by observation points that are looking and providing

22 information, you don't control the ground.

23 And the KLA were very active and good at bypassing Vojska

24 Jugoslavije and MUP positions and using the ground and their local

25 knowledge. So a very major operation was planned and presumably -- and

Page 4725

1 did take place. The cause and effect of that operation was probably not

2 worth the huge amount of effort that was put into it, for the reasons I

3 have just outlined to you, sir. Does that help? No.

4 MR. RE:

5 Q. I was involuntarily shaking my head. What I'm actually getting at

6 is when Mr. Emmerson said: "That is an operation of encirclement, isn't

7 it" and you said: "That appears to be the case, yes." My recollection

8 yesterday - and I will be corrected if I am wrong - is that Mr. Emmerson

9 showed you the order; but before answering it, you didn't look at the

10 map.

11 So what I want you to do is look at the map and familiarise

12 yourself with those villages and axes described. And in light of looking

13 at the map, inform the Court whether it is, in fact, an encirclement as

14 your answer yesterday was: "That appears to be the case."

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

16 MR. EMMERSON: If I may say so, in order to answer that question,

17 the witness needs to look at the tasks for units and to mark on the map

18 the axes for each unit, so Gllogjan to Shaptej for the first one,

19 Gramocelj to Babaloc to Rastavica for the second, Gramocelj to --

20 JUDGE ORIE: At least that's what you suggest Mr. Re would invite

21 the witness to do.

22 MR. EMMERSON: Those are the tasks that would determine the

23 answers to whether this comes out as an encirclement.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Whether that should be done by marking on the map or

25 looking at the map is another matter.

Page 4726

1 But, Mr. Re, if you would follow that suggestion, the Chamber

2 would certainly not oppose, and it might -- since it's a long list read by

3 Mr. Emmerson yesterday, today read by you again, it might assist but I

4 leave it up to you.

5 MR. RE: Of course, it would assist. It might have assisted

6 yesterday if we had done it that way, too.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Today we always know better what we should have

8 done yesterday. That's general experience.

9 MR. RE:

10 Q. Colonel, can you, first, familiarise yourself with those

11 particular areas on the map, and then I'll get you to draw some lines on

12 the computer. It will be D32 and it will be only the computer screen in

13 front of you. It's probably better to familiarise yourself first on the

14 hard copy.

15 A. Yeah.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps Madam Usher could assist the

17 witness with the pen to mark. We are on D32.

18 Mr. Re, I take it that you have chosen the size you would exactly

19 need. Because you know once marking has started, zooming in and out

20 becomes impossible.

21 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to interrupt. I think all of these

22 locations are marked on P10, which is a much clearer and smaller-scale

23 map; and it may be for Mr. Re's purposes, it would be easier to follow it

24 by simply loading P10 which covers, I think, all of the locations.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, P10, if nothing else, then

Page 4727

1 D31 -- D32, but without the red markings on it and on a different scale.

2 But zooming in and out might do as well, so I leave it up to you, Mr. Re.

3 MR. RE: D10 is probably better.

4 JUDGE ORIE: D10, then we get D10 on the screen.

5 MR. EMMERSON: It is, in fact, P10.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it is D10. Yes, I apologise.

7 It takes a while to get the map uploaded.


9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, would you please carefully check whether

10 everything you would like the witness to mark is on the screen at this

11 moment or whether we need to zoom in and zoom out. It might be that it

12 should be zoomed out a little bit or am I wrong.

13 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Everything is on the screen.

15 Is it, Mr. Re?

16 MR. RE: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Everything is on the screen. Okay.

18 So that should be fine.

19 MR. RE:

20 Q. Can you see the Crnobreg village-Rznic village-Glodjane

21 village-Gramocelj village-Prilep village sector?

22 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to interrupt again. But if Mr. Re is

23 asking about the encirclement question, he has to ask what instructions

24 were issued to the forces, not which axes they were trying to break. And

25 the instructions issued to the forces are under 2.1 to 2.5. And if each

Page 4728

1 of those axes is marked on the map, we will then see what the manoeuvre

2 was that was being ordered; whereas, if he asks the witness to mark a

3 series of axes from paragraph 1, he's asking the witness to mark the

4 targets, not the manoeuvres.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, perhaps we could ask the witness whether he

6 would agree that he has looked at the document before, whether he would

7 agree that the tasks are set out, and that's of course what is suggested

8 by the title in 2.1, in 2, and that the targets are found in 1.

9 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, if I may be able to help.


11 THE WITNESS: Plainly the general who -- or his Chief of Staff

12 who's written this particular paper would layout for the general rough

13 axes as in, I have decided, paragraph. Specific tasks would then be

14 allocated to various units. Whether you want -- whether you would like

15 the specific tasks looked at or the axes that the general has asked to be

16 cleared, I think probably in the end become one and the same thing,.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that should do.

18 THE WITNESS: Otherwise, we're not doing what the general tells,

19 and that usually means you're not getting very far up the promotion

20 ladder.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, what you say is what we find specified under 2

22 covers what we find in 1.

23 THE WITNESS: Exactly, sir. The first paragraph, I believe, lays

24 out the general direction that the general wants cleared. You then go

25 down to the units, which are the tasks referred to under paragraph 2, that

Page 4729

1 give each unit its specific objective tasks. It becomes slightly further

2 complex, as I'm afraid only us in the military can do, is that if those

3 objectives fall very quickly, then a unit will exploit further if the

4 commander thinks the situation gives him that opportunity.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Wouldn't it - and I'm suggesting this now to

6 both parties - if we would ask Mr. Crosland by marking the map to

7 illustrate what tasks were given under paragraph 2; and then once he's

8 done this, to look at paragraph 1 and see whether there's anything left in

9 paragraph 1 which would further illustrate what the order actually covers

10 here. Would that be a good suggestion?

11 MR. EMMERSON: I would endorse that.


13 MR. EMMERSON: And then one can see each manoeuvre as it builds up

14 on the map.


16 And I see that Mr. Re is nodding "yes" as well.

17 MR. RE: Oh, yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So, Mr. Crosland, you are now invited on the basis of

19 the specifications in 2, the tasks for the unit, to illustrate, I take it

20 mainly by drawing the axis, on the map; and then once we've done that, to

21 look at 1, whether this gives an incomplete picture or whether it gives a

22 fair impression of what the order is about.

23 Madam Usher could perhaps assist the witness when he uses the

24 magic pen.

25 Yes. You know that once you start writing on the screen it marks.

Page 4730

1 Yes.

2 THE WITNESS: I was not known for my drawing capabilities.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, there is a possibility to correct if you

4 think you did anything wrong. So please proceed, and perhaps explain what

5 you're marking, starting with I take it 2.1 then.

6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

7 2.1 is the battle group 52, with various forces, as outlined,

8 starting from trig point 509, which I'm having difficulty in finding. But

9 from 509, they go down to Glodjane. So they will presumably have

10 started --

11 MR. HARVEY: 509 is just above Shaptej, if that helps.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, there are two Shaptejs, Mr. Harvey, as

13 you're aware of.

14 Could you please look at just to the map. Yes, that's Shaptej.

15 Just above what you marked is 509.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, right sir.

17 JUDGE ORIE: You see that.


19 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if we might ask the witness to mark these

20 axes as Your Honour indicated.


22 MR. EMMERSON: In other words, to mark the line between the two

23 points rather than so to simply, so to speak, underlining the two spots

24 and that way we will see the picture building.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could follow that suggestion.

Page 4731

1 THE WITNESS: I will try, sir.

2 This appears to have started from Saptej and going north towards

3 Glodjane.

4 Paragraph 2.2, sir, comes from Gramocelj to Babaloc and the

5 Rastavica axis.

6 JUDGE ORIE: If you could mark that axis on the map.

7 THE WITNESS: Well, we have Babaloc, Gramocelj, and I'm now

8 looking for the third one, Rastavica.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If you would look a bit north-west --

10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I see it --

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- I think that -- and if you could mark the axis, so

12 that's the line connecting these three locations.

13 Now, we move to the 2.3 --

14 THE WITNESS: 2.3.1 --

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- which is subdivided.

16 THE WITNESS: -- which is again from --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although 2.3.1 is followed not by 2.3.2, so

18 it's just 2.3, I take it.

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, from Gramocelj to Glodjane.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please mark that.

21 THE WITNESS: So we have Gramocelj down here through Dubrava, this

22 village here, and to Glodjane, which are already marked, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you could try to --

24 THE WITNESS: So I presume it is this way.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And then take it up to Glodjane.

Page 4732

1 THE WITNESS: And then towards ...

2 2.4 is appearing to be coming along the -- if I remember rightly,

3 there was some woods over on the west side of the road in Drenovacke, up

4 here, and then it comes down along here through Prilep and on into Rznic;

5 and then further down, towards Glodjane.

6 2.5 is from Crnobreg village up in the north, as indicated. The

7 task is to secure their left flank from Beleg, and that appears to be as

8 far as they go.

9 I would have thought, sir, Your Honours, that that indicates an

10 encompassing assault in that you have troops coming from the south, from

11 Dubrava, towards Glodjane. You have a further axis from Drenovac through

12 Prilep, Rznic, back south to Glodjane, with flanking projection. Now,

13 that's what the orders say. Whether that happened, of course, is another

14 matter, sir.

15 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour.


17 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder, in the light of that answer, whether

18 Mr. Re would put this question again whether this is properly described as

19 an encirclement.

20 MR. RE: I mean, there is --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson. Mr. Emmerson.

22 Mr. Re is re-examining the witness. There's no need to act as --

23 I don't know as a matter of fact how they call that in English, but in the

24 French they say it's the "souffleur," as on the bottom of the stage if

25 someone loses his text.

Page 4733

1 MR. EMMERSON: It's a prompt.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. Re heard your question. We were not yet

3 there where the witness, as we was invited to do, as to see whether what

4 he marked on the map gives a fair picture of what we find under 1 or

5 whether anything has to be added, and then we'll first leave it to Mr. Re

6 to put his question.

7 MR. EMMERSON: I apologise.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Please proceed, Mr. Re, I would like

9 to say.

10 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Colonel Crosland, you've now marked on the map this axis described

12 or the battle -- or the plans described in that particular order. Based

13 on your experience, what sort of manoeuvre or operation is this in

14 military terms?

15 A. This is a manoeuvre operation. It's not a -- it's not a complete

16 encirclement. Because if you look on the map the KLA, certainly if I was

17 the KLA, I would not have stayed in Glodjane. I would have gone east.

18 Therefore, you can say it is not a complete encircle operation. I think

19 we have to understand -- if I may suggest to the Court, one has to

20 understand that if you are facing the type of odds that the KLA were

21 facing in May of this year in this particular operation, then you would be

22 very foolish to stand and fight against very superior opposition that is

23 currently deployed on the map.

24 Therefore, time is on the side of the terrorist. He withdraws

25 probably to the east. I can't answer that question because, A, I was not

Page 4734

1 there; and any gentleman who probably can answer it is Mr. Haradinaj.

2 Q. Colonel, I just wish to clarify something before I finish with

3 this exhibit. You've drawn a line, a red line, from Drenovac, from west

4 to east, and then going down the road south, and then across the top of

5 Prilep towards Rznic with an arrow; and then another arrow comes down from

6 Rznic to Glodjane and that's going south, and other arrows are coming up

7 from Dubrava-Saptej area.

8 I'm trying to work out -- by that, are you meaning Serb forces

9 were to come from Drenovac, down the road, across to Prilep, up to Rznic,

10 and then go down to Glodjane, or are you describing something else?

11 A. Those are the tasks that have been laid out in paragraph 2. I've

12 drawn them on the map. As I indicated to the Court, what actually

13 happened on the ground depends on the situation and how much resistance

14 was given or acted against the Serb security forces on their approach

15 would depend on how far they came down. And, obviously, they don't want

16 to start firing at one another when they meet, if they met, in Glodjane

17 itself.

18 So what is drawn, I come back to the point I'm making, you can

19 have the best plan and the most detailed tasks in the world; but on

20 contact, a plan generally goes out the window because there is an enemy

21 who doesn't particularly want to get killed on the other side or involved.

22 And in this case, they may have decided not to oppose the Serb forces, as

23 I've indicated, who are far superior and to stay and fight another day.

24 MR. RE: Those are my questions on this exhibit. Just in terms of

25 time, there's just one other area I wish to ask the Colonel about.

Page 4735

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we'd rather do that after the break. I take

2 it that it will take you some time; and for the interpreters and for the

3 transcribers, it's time to have some rest.

4 We will have a break, Mr. Crosland, and we'll most likely not

5 continue long after the break, but we'll resume at five minutes past is

6 11.00.

7 MR. RE: Your Honour, should that be saved and given an exhibit

8 number?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it should be saved. We can do it now or after

10 the break. Let's do it now, unless there's no further marking needed.

11 Madam Registrar, the marked map, P10, would now have number?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P323,

13 marked for identification.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15 Can we get this already admitted into evidence. Maps usually take

16 a short-cut. Yes, admitted into evidence.

17 We have a break until five minutes past 11.00

18 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, you may proceed.

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. Colonel Crosland, yesterday, Mr. Emmerson took you to tab 28,

23 which is Exhibit D80 or 81. I've just lost my index.

24 JUDGE ORIE: 28 is 81, Mr. Re.

25 MR. RE:

Page 4736

1 Q. It's D81 which is a report of the Pristina Corps command, dated

2 the 7th of August, 1998. If you could just turn to that, please.

3 Yesterday, Mr. Emmerson asked you about the document; and at page 4654 to

4 4655 of the transcript, he read to you paragraph 1 of the report, which is

5 under the hand of Colonel Mladen Cirkovic describing: "Between 25th of

6 July and 6th August, 1998, MUP units were engaged by decision of the Joint

7 Command for Kosovo and Metohija along the following axes," and then

8 describes some axes. What I want you to do is to look at the axes which

9 are described.

10 MR. RE: If a fresh Exhibit of P10 could be placed on the screen,

11 please.

12 Q. I'll take you to that in a moment. Now, if you look at the axes,

13 this Komorane village-Lapusnik village-Kijevo village, those are not in

14 the Dukagjin area. Is that correct?

15 A. That's correct, sir, yeah.

16 Q. And is it -- is it the case that the only ones from those axes

17 described in that paragraph which are actually in the Dukadjin area are

18 Gradjanica, Bandera, trig point 490, and Glodjane village?

19 A. That's correct, sir, yes.

20 Q. And we noted earlier that there is another Jablanica, which is in

21 the Peje area -- I'm sorry. I suppose you described it as the Klina area

22 between Klina and Peje, and that's not the one we're referring to here.

23 What I want you to do is look at this report - and this is a report of

24 military actions - and I want you to look at the map. And, firstly,

25 you're aware, aren't you, that there are two Glodjanes. There is one

Page 4737

1 referred to as the Catholic Glodjane?

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. And there's the Glodjane which is from where Mr. Haradinaj

4 originates?

5 A. I understand that, sir, yes.

6 Q. Now, yesterday, it was described to you that the axis described

7 there was one going to the non-Catholic Glodjane, that is, Mr. Haradinaj's

8 Glodjane, and I don't think you were given an opportunity to look at the

9 map when Mr. Emmerson, who will of course correct me if I am wrong.

10 MR. EMMERSON: It isn't that. It's just in order to find these

11 positions that Mr. Re is asking about, he'll need D32 and not P10. They

12 don't appear on P10, all of them, but they do appear on D32.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That's why the reason I've got D32 in front of me.

14 MR. RE: As far as I can see, they're all on P10.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The other Glodjanes are but, of course, you also

16 refer to Klina, and that's, of course, only on D32. But the other

17 Glodjane are on this map, on D -- on P10, Mr. Emmerson. So if we limit it

18 to that and not to the Klina, as you said before, then please proceed.

19 MR. RE: I'm only interested in the ones that are relevant to the

20 Dukagjin area and the indictment.


22 MR. RE:

23 Q. Can you see the two Glodjanes, the Catholic Glodjane which is on

24 the road from Peje to I think Nepolje?

25 A. Yes. I've got that, yes.

Page 4738

1 Q. Now, what I would like you to do is read the report which you have

2 in your hand there and to look at the map, the axis: Gradjanica-Bandera

3 (trig point 490)-Glodjane-Jablanica village, and from your understanding,

4 your military understanding, to draw on the map the axis which is

5 described there.

6 A. If I understand it correct, sir -- sorry.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps, Mr. Re, if you would specifically

8 point at the axis you want him to mark so he knows exactly, because it's a

9 long list under number 1.

10 MR. RE:

11 Q. Only relating to those at the end of the paragraph it says:

12 "Gradjanica village-Bandera (trig point 490)-Gllogjan village-Jablanica."

13 In military terms, those axes described, can you please mark, from your

14 understanding, of what they are on this map -- on the plan?

15 A. Gradjanica at the top here, down towards Bandera, point 490, which

16 I'm now underlining. I beg your pardon. Down to Glodjane and then on

17 down to Jablanica.

18 Q. And to make it clear, on the map you have marked the Catholic

19 Glodjane, not Mr. Haradinaj's Glodjane?

20 A. That's correct, as I understand it, sir, yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: If the marking is done, then a number should be

22 assigned to it.

23 Madam Registrar, that would be?

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P324,

25 marked for identification.

Page 4739

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

2 MR. RE:

3 Q. I just want to clarify: When you were asked yesterday, at page

4 4655, Mr. Emmerson asked you about the second axis. The question was:

5 "And the second" - he described to you - "axis from Glodjane to Jablanica

6 village would take you across the area where the canal flows, wouldn't

7 it?"

8 Your answer: "That's possible, yes."

9 It goes down and you say: "The second one," as you stated,

10 "between Glodjane and Jablanica which is a lot vaguer because the two are

11 in cross-country area?"

12 "Q. Yes."

13 "A. Which could have gone cross the canal area?

14 "Q. Yes.

15 "A. It may not have done. I don't know.

16 Now, having drawn that on the map, does that clarify in your own

17 in mind whether the axis which Mr. Emmerson was describing to you went

18 from Gradjanica to Catholic Glodjane to Jablanica or, in fact, from

19 Jablanica right across to Mr. Haradinaj's Glodjane?

20 A. So, I understood we were talking about, if I may refer to it,

21 Mr. Haradinaj's home in Glodjane across to Jablanica and not what I would

22 call the northern Glodjane. So that is the axis that I understood that

23 Mr. Emmerson was talking about; but if I've got it wrong, I apologise.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just seek to see whether there's really

25 disagreement about this among the parties.

Page 4740

1 Mr. Emmerson, usually, the axis are described with rather great

2 precision. That means points of reference not too far from each other --


4 JUDGE ORIE: -- to leave matters clear as where the axis are.


6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Glodjane-Jablanica here would be a huge distance

7 without clear reference. Therefore, if we are talking about

8 Gradjanica-Bandera-Glodjane-Jablanica, in the system of describing axis,

9 that at first makes more sense.

10 MR. EMMERSON: I agree, the order makes more sense.


12 MR. EMMERSON: Obviously, none of us is in a position to know for

13 certain.


15 MR. EMMERSON: But the order in which the villages appear would

16 make more sense if the axis is as drawn by Colonel Crosland --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Now --

18 MR. EMMERSON: -- than if it was a reference to Glodjane on the

19 western side.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And understood that way, the axis between Glodjane

21 and Jablanica would, although cross water, not the canal --


23 JUDGE ORIE: -- because it seems that it is the [indiscernible]

24 which is crossed but not understood that way.

25 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, first of all, may I say yes. There

Page 4741

1 were two separate lines of questioning to Colonel Crosland in that

2 regard. One in general terms - and I haven't got the transcript

3 reference - was that for the KLA to retreat eastwards from Glodjane to

4 Jablanica, that would involve them crossing the canal by and large. And,

5 therefore, if you wish to cut-off their retreat, you would be militarily

6 wise to ensure that they could not do that. And in that regard --

7 JUDGE ORIE: That's a different --

8 MR. EMMERSON: -- a somewhat -- sorry. Whilst I --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What I'd like not to do now is start commenting

10 and interpreting the evidence.

11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm sorry.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The point yesterday whether there was any

13 disagreement about that between the parties because then we might have to

14 explore that it in further detail.

15 MR. EMMERSON: May I indicate that there is one further matter at

16 some point I would like to raise.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We first give an opportunity to Mr. Re to

18 finish his re-examination.

19 MR. RE: The next question Mr. Emmerson asked was after Mr.

20 Crosland said, "It may have not done it. I don't know." Mr. Emmerson

21 said, "But the canal area does, does it not, flow right through the most

22 direct route from Glodjane to Jablanica?"

23 "A. It does.

24 "Q. That very axis?

25 "A. Yes."

Page 4742

1 Which in that context could only be referring to that long axis in

2 that order, because he was asking about that order.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that is now in dispute and that's

4 clarified, and what it takes to go from one place to another, apart from

5 what Mr. Crosland tells us about it, can be verified on maps as well, and

6 the Chamber will certainly do so.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. RE: I have nothing further.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing further.

10 Then any need for --

11 MR. EMMERSON: Before Your Honours ask any further questions, may

12 I just raise one matter. In answer to Mr. Re and commenting on the

13 markings that the witness put on P10, which became P -- sorry, which

14 became P323, Colonel Crosland said at page 36, line 5 of the transcript

15 that the formation he had marked as a planned operation for the 10th of

16 August was not -- I'll just read the passage: "It's not a complete

17 encirclement. Because if you look on the map, the KLA, certainly if I was

18 the KLA, I would not have stayed in Glodjane. I would have gone east.

19 Therefore, you can say that it is not a complete encircle operation."

20 And a few lines further down, on line 13, the answer continued:

21 "Therefore, time is on the side of the terrorists. He withdraws probably

22 to the east."

23 Now, if one looks at the chronology, the axis that the witness has

24 now marked is derived from tab 28, which is, for the record --

25 JUDGE ORIE: 7th of August.

Page 4743

1 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. D28, which is dated the 7th of August and

2 describing activity which had taken place by the 6th of August; in other

3 words, that Serbian deployment coming in a southerly direction towards

4 Jablanica. I wanted to ask the witness whether, in light of the fact that

5 there was a plainly Serbian advance just three days before the 10th of

6 August, which was coming down towards Grabanica down towards Jablanica,

7 and therefore effectively putting Serbian troops on that eastern flank,

8 whether that is, in fact, would have closed the circle by preventing an

9 escape in an easterly direction.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crosland, I take it you've understood the

11 question. If you'd like to have a closer look at your markings at the

12 previous one, you can ask Madam Registrar to show you, because I take it

13 you've now got the axis Grabanica-Bandera-Glodjane-Jablanica well in your

14 memory. If you would like to look at the other one, please ask.

15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour, I'm happy with the question

16 as I understand it. As I said to the Court earlier on, I still don't -- I

17 accept what Mr. Emmerson says, saying forces are moving down towards

18 Jablanica and, therefore, providing in military terms a stop to the KLA

19 moving east, but there is still a considerable distance some -- I believe

20 these squares a kilometre squares.

21 So approximately from Glodjane, Mr. Haradinaj's home, to Jablanica

22 is about ten, 12 kilometres. That is a considerable area for forces to

23 disappear into, and the area is, as indicated on the map, quite wooded and

24 hilly. And, therefore, I would suggest that the encirclement is not

25 complete if the forces stopped at Jablanica, as indicated by this order.

Page 4744

1 So there is plenty of space for the KLA to disappear in the middle of the

2 area.


4 THE WITNESS: That is the only way I can think of helping this

5 particular question.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, it's good to -- that our attention

7 is drawn to the military plans put on paper. Of course, you also have to

8 pay attention to what actually happened on the ground, as you have drawn

9 our attention to a number of times. And, finally, whether it qualifies as

10 a full encirclement, yes or no, might not be the full and decisive factor

11 for the whole of this case.

12 Any further questions triggered by the questions Mr. Re? I see no

13 request for further questions.

14 Judge Hoepfel has a question for you

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. Sir, may I get back to your answer you gave

17 in connection with your visit at the canal area in September 1998. You

18 testified in response to the question of Mr. Re, who had asked about --

19 just a moment. Page 24, line 24 -- who had asked: "What, in your

20 understanding, was the forensic equipment and facilities availability to

21 the Serbs in that area at that time?" Do you remember that was the

22 question?

23 And your answer had been: "Sir, I have no idea what capability

24 they had. I just asked them that in order to provide prima facie evidence

25 as to who had done this particular act," and so on.

Page 4745

1 My question would be: When you asked them that, when you gave

2 them this advice to provide prima facie evidence, was that before or on

3 that day of your visit?

4 A. Your Honour, I think it was at the end of the -- of that

5 particular visit. My remark was made to one of the MUP officers, one of

6 the senior MUP officers. The suggestion was that that was the route that

7 they should follow in order to properly identify who had committed this

8 particular crime. Because as you are well aware, sir, there were

9 unfortunately crimes being committed all over Kosovo.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. I appreciate that. This answers my

11 question.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crosland, since I've got no further questions for

13 you, and since you've answered all the questions put to you by the parties

14 and the Bench, I'd like to thank you for not only for coming, for even

15 coming twice. Usually, we excuse the witness already when we are dealing

16 with exhibits; but perhaps since quite a number and if you would be

17 willing to just stay and watch and assist us if there would be any need to

18 do so in the administration of exhibits, then that would be highly

19 appreciate.

20 So I asked Madam Registrar to make a list, and she's printing it

21 out now, with all the exhibits which were introduced during the testimony

22 of Mr. Crosland.

23 MR. EMMERSON: I think Your Honour should have the index now

24 with -- as of first thing this morning, with all of the exhibit numbers

25 that were ascribed during the day yesterday inserted, so that those which

Page 4746

1 have not yet had identification numbers ascribed to them can be dealt with

2 now.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we -- I don't know whether they were

4 all used, that's of course the first thing that would have to be verified

5 because the mere fact that they appear on your list, Mr. Emmerson, is not

6 good enough to assign a number. But it might especially be earlier

7 that ...

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll do it in the following way, Mr. Emmerson.

10 There are a few documents on your index which have not been assigned MFI

11 numbers yet. We'll leave them for the moment because there are two

12 possibilities: Either they were not assigned them at the time or they

13 were not used. We'll ask you and your team together with Madam Registrar

14 to identify, not at this very moment, but out of court, to see whether

15 there are any documents used but not yet assigned numbers. Madam

16 Registrar then will prepare an additional list. And as far as we are

17 concerned at this very moment, we'll just focus only on documents that

18 have already been assigned a number. So we leave it open whether later

19 today or tomorrow we'll have a short additional list of those documents

20 not yet assigned numbers, but nevertheless used.


22 JUDGE ORIE: But we'll have to verify that first.

23 MR. EMMERSON: The fact is that the vast majority of those that

24 were not ascribed numbers were, in fact, used, but there are a handful;

25 that is, three or four or five that were not.

Page 4747

1 JUDGE ORIE: We have to verify that precisely and then make an

2 additional list and at this moment focus only on those documents that have

3 been assigned numbers.

4 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then Madam Registrar is about to print the list for

6 me.

7 Mr. Crosland, these are administrative matters that are really

8 important but this sometimes takes some time.

9 Mr. Re.

10 MR. RE: In relation to the Prosecution's exhibits with

11 Mr. Crosland, we notified the Chamber in advance of -- there were two

12 sets. There was the Limaj.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, I'll take care of that. That's P92.

14 MR. RE: Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Is the full set of the --

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's try to see whether we can --

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay ...

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: I think we sorted out now everything.

22 I start, not as usual, with D exhibits. D exhibits assigned

23 numbers start with D36.

24 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to rise to my feet. Is Your Honour

25 starting from the lowest to the highest?

Page 4748

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's --

2 MR. EMMERSON: I think D34 should be on the list.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but, of course, we have admitted already some.

4 But Madam Registrar will immediately, D34, check that and I'll also check

5 that on my computer.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you'll check, Mr. Emmerson, but it's related

8 to another witness according to Madam Registrar. I asked her to give

9 me --

10 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. That may well be right.


12 So then I have D36 which is a map marked by Mr. Crosland, taken

13 from D32. Then we jump to -- but I've some -- I still have to see whether

14 that's correct or not. But then at least it starts with -- perhaps we

15 leave D36 for a moment. It starts with D70, and then in an uninterrupted

16 range up to and including D87.

17 First, Mr. Re, are there any objections at all against --

18 MR. RE: There's no objection to any of the --

19 JUDGE ORIE: There's no objection.

20 MR. RE: -- the things that Colonel Crosland --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then D70 -- we will check for D36. But D70 up to and

22 including D87 are admitted into evidence. Then we -- as far as

23 Prosecution exhibits are concerned, we start with P70, and then I have an

24 uninterrupted range up to P116. Are there any objections by any of the

25 Defence teams on any of the documents in this range?

Page 4749


2 JUDGE ORIE: Then P70 up to and including P116 are admitted into

3 evidence.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll first make a correction to that. I said

6 the range was uninterrupted. That is not correct, because on the list P99

7 does not appear. But there is a serious risk that we were confusing P --

8 let me just have a look. No. P99 was not in the range I just admitted

9 into evidence. We'll have to have a look at what P99 exactly is, whether

10 it was already admitted, which is a possibility. We'll check that, but at

11 least that's not now subject of the Chamber's decision on admission. So,

12 therefore, the range would then be from P70 up to P98 and including that,

13 then restarting at P100 and up to and including P116. We'll further check

14 P99 later on.

15 Then today immediately admitted was P323, which was a map marked

16 by Mr. Crosland; and the other map marked by Mr. Crosland is P324, which

17 has not been admitted yet. May I take it that there's no objection

18 against P324?

19 That means that we'll still need to pay further attention to D36

20 and P99.

21 I further draw your attention to the following. The Limaj

22 transcript happen admitted into evidence; however, although the Chamber

23 has heard that there were no objections against any of the exhibits used

24 during that testimony, that being Exhibit P92 in the Limaj case, not in

25 this case, and if that remains the same, that is, that there are no

Page 4750

1 objections, then we will already decide, provisionally decide, to admit

2 the 52 documents which we find under the P92 in Limaj.

3 Madam Registrar will assign numbers to them and complete that

4 list, and the reason why the admission is provisional is because the

5 Chamber would like to look at these documents as well, whether they are

6 suitable for admission. Because even if it's highly appreciated that the

7 Defence does not object, the Chamber, of course, reserves its right to see

8 whether these are documents that can be admitted.

9 We'll do that the following way: They are admitted with the

10 proviso that if the Chamber, in reviewing the matter, finds that there's

11 any of these 52 documents, which still have to be assigned numbers to by

12 Madam Registrar, would in the Chamber's view be inadmissible, we'll then

13 inform the parties about it. So "provisional" means that they are

14 admitted on the basis of there being no objections, but the Chamber

15 already announces that it will review whether any correction is needed in

16 the future.

17 Mr. Re.

18 MR. RE: Just on that a small logistical, administrative matter.


20 MR. RE: There is an overlap between some of the exhibits which

21 you have admitted through the Defence and the Limaj DipTels. For example,

22 D87 is 9229, D76 is 9233, and --

23 JUDGE ORIE: If you have a comparison -- you don't have them.

24 MR. RE: I've cross-checked some. I've noticed three. There are

25 probably more which are from the Limaj which you've already admitted

Page 4751

1 through the Defence.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then the ruling is changed is that from these 52

3 documents attached to the Limaj transcript any document not yet admitted

4 in this case will be admitted with the proviso that the Chamber will have

5 an opportunity to review that. That is then on the record. And to the

6 extent the parties are able to assist Madam Registrar in making a

7 comparison between the 52 documents of Limaj and a list of exhibits we've

8 got now, that would be appreciated.

9 Mr. Crosland, I think we even managed without you, which is quite

10 an achievement in this court, looking at what happened on the 19th, the

11 20th of April, and yesterday and today. Therefore, I'd like to thank you

12 very much and wish you a safe trip home again.

13 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out

15 of the courtroom.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, are you ready to call your next witness?

18 MR. EMMERSON: Just before Mr. Re --


20 MR. EMMERSON: -- does, may I tidy up those two outstanding

21 matters of exhibits that Your Honour had raised questions about.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That's D36 and P99, is that?

23 MR. EMMERSON: No, I'm sorry. D70, which is tab 14, first of all,

24 which was the document in respect of which during Mr. Re's re-examination,

25 I circulated the official translation --

Page 4752


2 MR. EMMERSON: -- in hard copy.


4 MR. EMMERSON: That will be, if it has not yet been, substituted

5 for the draft translation which links to D70.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would say that the official translation

7 replaces the provisional translation until now attached to D70?


9 JUDGE ORIE: That's uploaded.

10 And, Madam Registrar, I take it that you will -- it's already

11 done, Mr. Emmerson.

12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, very well. The other one was tab 17, D34,

13 which was the document which when Your Honour looked at the original,

14 there were two versions, one with some manuscript markings and another

15 with a stamp, and yet a single translation which bore the stamp, but also

16 seems to bear a translation of certain manuscript markings.


18 MR. EMMERSON: The provisional solution agreed between the

19 parties, if Your Honour is happy with it, is for D34 to remain the

20 document which is currently the first of the two, and for the second of

21 the two to be ascribed a separate exhibit number so that both documents

22 are loaded into the system, they being different the one from the other.


24 MR. EMMERSON: And then for the parties to ensure that the

25 translations of the two documents are linked and correlate. It may well

Page 4753

1 be at the end of the day nothing whatever turns on the difference between

2 the two, but to avoid that confusion and clarify that is the solution we

3 propose. And if Your Honour's in agreement, we will have that dealt with

4 outside court over the next 24 or 36 hours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's fine. Perhaps we already asked Madam

6 Registrar to assign a number to the second version of that document, that

7 document being the Pristina Corps command order dated the 28th of May,

8 1998.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be then Exhibit Number

10 D88, marked for identification.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

12 The decisions I just gave on admission are always in line with

13 what was said earlier about whether they were marked for identification,

14 under seal or not. We'll have to review, Mr. Re, I take it the Limaj

15 list, to see whether there are any -- whether there's any of these

16 documents admitted under seal. All --

17 MR. RE: All the Limaj documents are admitted under seal.

18 JUDGE ORIE: All the Limaj documents are under seal.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd forgotten when I explored whether there

21 were any objections against P324; and when we found that there was not, I

22 have not specifically said that P324 was admitted into evidence.

23 Any further matter at this moment?

24 Then, Mr. Re, are you ready to call your next witness?

25 MR. RE: Yes. Our next witness is Ded Krasniqi. He requires no

Page 4754

1 protective measures. Mr. Di Fazio will take that witness, and can I

2 introduce, we have a new lawyer who arrived in the office several weeks

3 ago, Ms. Rut Ley, who will be assisting Mr. Di Fazio. I notice

4 Mr. Guy-Smith is on his feet.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'll first say welcome to you, Ms. Ley,

6 before I give an opportunity to Mr. Guy-Smith to raise whatever he wants

7 to raise.

8 Mr. Guy-Smith.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I also welcome you, Ms. Ley.

10 I rise to ask the following question with regard to the next

11 witness to be called, Mr. Krasniqi. We received late last night -- excuse

12 me. We received at approximately 6.30 p.m., last night, Rule 68

13 information that indicated, among other things, that the next witness was

14 convicted for a murder involving a dispute over cow pasturing as a result

15 of a press release. We also received a series of newspaper articles that

16 are in, I believe, Serbo-Croatian and some other documents.

17 I have no way of knowing whether or not the newspaper articles are

18 of any relevance and need investigation at this time because of the fact

19 that they received them so late and they have not been translated. I have

20 been informed by Mr. Di Fazio that he had an informal translation done of

21 those documents, and I understand that to mean that the translator read

22 them quickly. And based on whatever that translation was, he made a

23 determination that they were Rule 68 and believed after sending them to us

24 that his obligations were discharged in that regard.

25 Apart from the difficulties that potentially may exist with regard

Page 4755

1 to the late disclosure of this information, I rise to ask at this point:

2 Is there any other Rule 68 information that the Office of the Prosecutor

3 has with regard to this witness or the next witness? And this is

4 especially in light of the representations previously made by the Office

5 of the Prosecutor that they have a system in place whereby they have

6 somebody who is reviewing the files for purposes of making sure that we

7 get Rule 68 information, not only delivered to us but in a timely fashion

8 so we can do something intelligent with it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, Mr. Di Fazio, may I take it -- or Mr. Re,

10 may I take it that what was provided yesterday to the Defence has been

11 received by the OTP recently? If these are newspaper articles, then at

12 least we could start looking at when they were published.

13 MR. RE: I can't answer when this was received. I can put it in

14 context. The first paragraph of the witness, or paragraph 3 --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I am aware of that.

16 MR. RE: -- say that he was imprisoned for 12 years. It's pretty

17 obvious.

18 JUDGE ORIE: What's obvious, Mr. Re -- let's go to the core. Do

19 you know when you received that information. Is it known when these

20 newspaper were published?

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MR. RE: Mr. Di Fazio can answer that better.


24 MR. RE: I think they're quite old.

25 JUDGE ORIE: They're quite old. Okay. If they are

Page 4756

1 contemporaneous to the imprisonment, to say it this way --

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I might be of some assistance, Your Honour.


4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Apparently, the press release comes from 1982. It

5 has an ERN number on it of some considerable age from my analysis of the

6 ERN numbers as they exist in this case. The newspaper article I, have

7 been led to believe, comes from 1995. It also has an older ERN number on

8 it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And were they or were they not disclosed any earlier,

10 Mr. Re?

11 MR. RE: I can't answer that, but I can answer that it is an

12 open-source document within the ERN range which is on the electronic

13 disclosure suite and is searchable by the Defence. This came to our

14 attention yesterday when we were doing some final searches for the witness

15 and we disclosed some what is fairly obvious open-source material in

16 relation to the witness.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. What exactly the importance of it being

18 open-source material is still to be seen, but let's -- from your

19 understanding, it's clear that the statement that has been provided to the

20 Chamber starts with a rather long term of imprisonment, to say the least.

21 Does this information, as far as you are aware of, give anything

22 more than the type of offence or crime for which this was imposed and

23 whether it was imposed and what court, or does it give any information

24 beyond the scope of the criminal case in which this sentence was imposed?

25 MR. DI FAZIO: They're just rudimentary newspaper articles that

Page 4757

1 really don't go beyond the fact that it arose from a neighbourhood dispute

2 over, as Mr. Guy-Smith mentioned, some dispute over the pasture of cows.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is the -- yes, Mr. Troop.

4 MR. TROOP: Your Honour, perhaps I can just invite the Prosecution

5 to indicate in relation to one of the newspaper articles. The newspaper

6 I'm referring to is one from, I believe, 1995. From our understanding,

7 Mr. Krasniqi was released from prison in 1994. Because the newspaper is

8 in Serbian and in Cyrillic, it is not possible for us even to get a basic

9 understanding of the relevance of that article.

10 As the Prosecution have the capacity and the ability to read this

11 newspaper, and clearly they have some understanding of what that

12 particular newspaper relates to, perhaps we could invite the Prosecution

13 just to give an indication of what that particular newspaper means and how

14 it may be relevant.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: I can go no further than to tell you that I

16 understand from having spoken briefly with an interpreter yesterday, that

17 the newspaper articles --

18 JUDGE ORIE: How long is the newspaper article?

19 MR. DI FAZIO: A page.

20 JUDGE ORIE: A page. That's too much to read aloud.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't think there are any -- I think this is the

22 one page, and I spoke to the interpreter yesterday. I gathered, from

23 speaking -- the translator I should say. I gathered from speaking to them

24 that it related to this incident. And as other material I had in English

25 that related to the incident I had decided was Rule 68, I also decided to

Page 4758

1 disclose this particular newspaper article. But what it says in detail, I

2 don't know and I'm not in possession of a draft or official translation of

3 the -- of what the newspaper article says.


5 Is it -- of course, one of the issues that might become relevant

6 in this context, Mr. Di Fazio, would be whether the victim or the

7 relatives of the victim of that crime at the time, whether they play any

8 role in the testimony to come. I remember that there was one additional

9 observation about who was the enemy of the witness.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, of course -- I mean, if we're talking --

12 it's just something in the past about cows. That of course could gain

13 some relevance in view of the testimony.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it might, but I don't have any information to

15 that effect. It might. I don't -- I don't know is the answer. I don't

16 know. There's no names that I've seen in these -- in the English, brief

17 English accounts that I've looked at that jump out and tell me that they

18 are personalities or characters linked to this case.

19 Now, for all I know, the Defence may have information to that

20 effect, but the Prosecution doesn't, other than of course the involvement

21 of the next witness.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us how you came across these

23 newspaper articles recently. I mean, in what context your attention was

24 drawn to it.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I was reviewing -- I was reviewing materials for

Page 4759

1 the purpose of isolating Rule 68 materials. I came across this material.

2 JUDGE ORIE: And did you search by computer or --

3 MR. DI FAZIO: It was materials that was provided to me by others

4 who had conducted a search. What parameters they used --


6 MR. DI FAZIO: -- what terms, definitions they used, how they

7 conducted the search of the computer database, I don't know.


9 MR. DI FAZIO: Having done that, they provided the materials to me

10 to for me to review. I reviewed them and disclosed this material.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And that happened when?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yesterday.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday. Then the last question, but I take it

14 that you have implicitly answered that question, whether there's any more

15 Rule 68 material for this witness or the next witness to come, I would

16 have expected you to have immediately disclosed such materials. Though --

17 but if you have any reason to believe there would be more Rule 68 material

18 in relation to this witness or the next witness, I would like to hear from

19 you.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't believe there is any more Rule 68 material

21 relating to this witness.

22 JUDGE ORIE: But for the next witness.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: But for the next witness, I can't speak to the next

24 witness. Mr. Re is going to do that, but I haven't conducted any search

25 in relation to the next witness.

Page 4760

1 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you pass that question to that member of your

2 team who is going to deal with the next witness.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I would be grateful --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it is Mr. Re.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: It is Mr. Re, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Because I don't wish to take up any more time

8 here, it might be appropriate for me to file a written explanation of the

9 EDS system regarding general collections as well as to specific

10 collections because the representations made here today are inaccurate.

11 But I am happy to do that in writing, so the Court has a better

12 understanding.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: The problem occurs efficiently often and is

15 highlighted just today that I am raising that as a different issue, but

16 I'm happy to make a written submission on this issue.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're invited to do so and, of course, the

18 Chamber will have a look at it.

19 Mr. Re -- Mr. Emmerson.

20 MR. EMMERSON: May I have one sentence for the record. Researches

21 during the course of the morning have revealed that this material was used

22 by the Prosecution in the prosecution of Slobodan Milosevic to

23 cross-examine -- to cross-examine a witness called by Mr. Milosevic. That

24 appears to be its genesis.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, might I rectify that. I

Page 4761

1 understand, and my case manager hopefully will correct me, perhaps if he

2 could look into this while --

3 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest the following. I suggest that we have an

4 early break and that we do not start either alleging or rectifying or

5 doing anything else unless we have verified the information we have

6 received.

7 I also suggest to the parties that if we have an early break, that

8 at least copies of the originals are available to everyone, and that we

9 use our resources to the best of your abilities to get as good as we can

10 an impression of what these newspaper articles tell us. So that we have

11 a -- well, I was about to say a proper basis for further discussion, but

12 as a matter of fact I would like to say a proper basis for not having too

13 many further discussions on the matter because we know better what we are

14 talking about.

15 Of course, it's usually not that the Chamber starts examining

16 material which has not been produced in this courtroom. But under the

17 present circumstances and in view of the fact that the Chamber might be

18 called upon to rule anyhow on whether there's a violation of any

19 disclosure obligation here, I take it that the parties would not mind that

20 if the Chamber would do the same as it invites the parties to do.

21 Then the Chamber would like to be provided with a hard copy of the

22 newspaper articles, and we'll find each other in our rush whether to see

23 to get the assistants to understand what they say.

24 Mr. Di Fazio.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: How can we -- yes, we can do that. And what I

Page 4762

1 might try and do during the break, if that's okay, try at least to get a

2 summary printed, typed out by one of our interpreters of the Serb Cyrillic

3 article. Secondly, how can we get the other material to you, to the Trial

4 Chamber, through the registry officer during the break? I assume you want

5 it --

6 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, I suggest that you give it to

7 the Legal Officer and he will provide it to us.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Fine. We'll do that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest we have a break now and after the break, if

10 possible, we would like to start with the examination of the witness,

11 unless there are compelling reasons not to do so.

12 We'll have a break until 25 minutes to 1.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that a summary has been distributed;

16 everyone is granted 45 seconds to read it.

17 Having read it and on the basis of the information the Chamber

18 received, it seems that the 1995 newspaper article primarily looks back at

19 the event in 1982, that it describes in some more detail on what happened

20 at the time, and that it places the incident in a situation of ethnic --

21 at least, among others, as in a context of ethnic conflict, that it

22 describes the difficulties to live later on.

23 From what the Chamber understood, none of the names mentioned here

24 are -- do appear anywhere in the witness statement. There's only one

25 little matter which perhaps might need some attention; that is, that in

Page 4763

1 the correction the witness gave on his earlier statement, someone is

2 described as being the enemy of the son. If it would be the son of an

3 enemy, that might have considerably changed the matter, but that's not at

4 least what the Chamber has read.

5 If any of the parties would consider the present newspaper

6 article, as we had access to, whether that would be a compelling reason

7 not to start the testimony of the witness, I'd like to hear it,

8 otherwise -- I see nodding no, Mr. Emmerson, no.

9 Then, Mr. Di Fazio, are you ready to call your next witness?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I am. I am. And if I might just -- it will take

11 me a minute, if Your Honours please. I just want to put some matters into

12 perspective.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I do understand that was some

14 miscommunication as to what time we would start again. It's nice to have

15 this written summary. I don't know. The Chamber doesn't find much new in

16 there from what it already understood, and I wouldn't summarize it not on

17 the basis of the written summary. Let's get started, unless there's

18 really a compelling reason not to do that and if there's any need at a

19 later stage to put matters into context, then --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Just this. I just disclosed a document now, now,

21 to the Defence. If the Defence turn the page, they just turn the page and

22 look at 3888, they will see the relevant part of this document. It refers

23 to a 43-year-old Serb, Miodrag Saric. That's the relevant part. That was

24 just disclosed now. It was not disclosed yesterday because due to a

25 mistake, and it was a clerical error, we looked at in fact the document,

Page 4764

1 but our information was that it had been disclosed in the past in a

2 previous batch. That information was incorrect. I've just now disclosed

3 it. I am from the Prosecution's point of view, this article is

4 inconsequential to the nth agree, in the Prosecution's view. However, if

5 the Defence wants to raise anything, now is the time. They can read it.

6 It should take, I would say, all of eight seconds to read.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Eight seconds are over, but I don't know whether --

8 you could ask for more.

9 MR. EMMERSON: No. I've read it earlier on and I've seen what it

10 says.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No further, then we will --

12 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm ready to proceed, and if Your Honours please, I

13 call Ded Krasniqi.


15 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Krasniqi into the

16 courtroom.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: I, meanwhile, take the opportunity to inform the

19 parties that the Chamber, for administrative reasons, has decided that any

20 exhibit used during the testimony of Witness 8, whatever the fate of that

21 may be in the future, shall be assigned exhibit numbers in order not to

22 lose them from our lists. So, therefore, it's just for administrative

23 purposes and does not anticipate in whatever way on future events in this

24 respect.

25 MR. EMMERSON: I take it that Your Honour intends that indication

Page 4765

1 to apply not just to exhibits used, but to exhibits that were to be used;

2 in other words, to the material that was in the file for cross-examination

3 or merely to those which were in fact --

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, for those, in fact,

5 used because the others -- but we'll have to check that on the list.

6 Yes. Usually, we do not assign numbers to documents where they have not

7 been used in any way or not. And your intent to use that, if that ever

8 turns into reality, then, of course, immediately numbers will be assigned.

9 MR. EMMERSON: The reason I'm hesitating is because Madam

10 Registrar very kindly raised with me the index to the cross-examination

11 bundle, and I think may have raised that after the conversation with me

12 with the Trial Chamber. Now, there are, in fact, two items that were

13 produced during the testimony as I recall it. One is the video which has

14 been marked for identification but not yet admitted, and the other was a

15 very late-produced statement that came from the Prosecution at the very

16 end, which I think has not been marked for identification.


18 MR. EMMERSON: All of the documents in the cross-examination

19 bundle, as far as I recall it, we didn't get to the point where they had,

20 in fact, been used.

21 JUDGE ORIE: We will check that, but most important is that any

22 document that was used in court appears on our list as --

23 MR. EMMERSON: Marked for identification.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- marked for identification so that we don't lose

25 them out of sight.

Page 4766

1 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you for that clarification.


3 Madam Registrar, I think this will be of sufficient guidance to

4 you, as well.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: I could also use our time to read a decision, that is

7 a decision on the application for issuance of a subpoena for the person

8 with Prosecution Witness Number 50.

9 The Chamber finds that the test for issuance of a subpoena for

10 this witness has not been met. In particular, the Chamber considers that

11 the Prosecution has failed to demonstrate in paragraph 5 of its

12 application that the witness is likely to provide information that will

13 materially assist the Prosecution's case.

14 The Chamber has read the 65 ter summary of the expected testimony

15 of the witness and has as well considered the 65 ter summaries of other

16 witnesses expected to testify on the same counts. Our conclusion is that

17 the expected testimony of the witness in question is purely corroborative

18 and largely hearsay and does not cover any critical elements of the

19 allegations in the indictment that are not already covered through

20 apparently better evidence of other witnesses.

21 The Chamber emphasises that the application is denied without

22 prejudice to the Prosecution; in other words, the Prosecution is entitled,

23 if it wishes, to submit another application for subpoena of this witness,

24 but only if it is able to make a significantly stronger case for calling

25 this witness.

Page 4767

1 This concludes the Chamber's decision.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi. Can you hear me in a

4 language you understand?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of

7 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

8 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. May I

9 invite you to make that declaration, of which the text is now handed out

10 to you by Madam Usher.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I will

12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krasniqi, please be seated.

14 Mr. Krasniqi, you'll first be examined by Mr. Di Fazio, who's

15 counsel for the Prosecution.

16 Mr. Di Fazio, you may proceed.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

21 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, what ethnicity are you?

22 A. Albanian.

23 Q. Thank you. And in 1998, I'd like you to try and give the Trial

24 Chamber an idea of your family, your family members in 1998. So tell

25 us --

Page 4768

1 JUDGE ORIE: May I first ask you, is there any objection against

2 leading on these personal matters?

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: None whatever.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That's as far as ethnicity, dates of birth,

5 composition of the family, et cetera.

6 Mr. Di Fazio, so perhaps you could speed that up.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

8 Q. In 1998, you had how many--

9 MR. DI FAZIO: To tell you the truth, if Your Honours please, I

10 don't actually know the answer to this so I'd like to ask the witness

11 directly.

12 Q. How many sons did you have in 1998, early 1998?

13 A. I had three.

14 Q. Right. And you also had a daughter, I believe?

15 A. And one daughter, yes.

16 Q. And you used to live in the city of Peje or Pec, the town of Peje

17 or Pec?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Was one of your son's Pal Krasniqi?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. In 1998, did your son decide to join the KLA?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you recall about what time of the year that was?

24 A. It was in 1998, July the 10th.

25 Q. Right. Now, is that the date that he went off to join the KLA?

Page 4769

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Had you and he discussed his joining the KLA before that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So you were aware on the 10th of July, 1998, of his plans?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman or did you know in 1998 a

7 gentleman named Mahir Dema?

8 A. Yes. I know him.

9 Q. Was he a friend of your son's?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did he have any plans in 1998 to join the KLA?

12 A. Yes. He told me about that.

13 Q. Who told you about Mr. Mahir Dema's plans, your son; or did Mahir

14 Dema himself tell you of Mahir Dema's plans to join the KLA?

15 A. Mahir Dema and my son, both of them told me.

16 Q. Thank you. Very well. Now, you said that on the 10th of July,

17 1998, they went off to join the KLA. Am I correct in my understanding?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What I would like to know is: Were you made aware of where

20 exactly they were going in order to carry out this plan of joining the

21 KLA?

22 A. Yes. They did tell me.

23 Q. And what did they tell you?

24 A. They told me that they would be going to Jablanica, but they had

25 to go to Klina first to get my wife and bring her there and then go to

Page 4770

1 Jablanica. And on the way, they were apprehended at the Krusha e Madhe

2 check-point, police check-point. They were beaten up there and taken to

3 Klina.

4 Q. All right. Just pause there. I want you to -- please tell me if

5 my understanding of your evidence is correct. Mahir Dema and your son

6 told you that they were going to pick up your wife from Klina and return

7 with her to your home in Peje or Pec. Do I understand you correctly?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. And do I understand you correctly that the plan was:

10 Having done that, that those two young men would then go to Jablanica to

11 join the KLA? Do I understand you correctly?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, you started to mention that something happened to

14 them at a police check-point. I want you first to tell the Trial Chamber

15 how you know what happened to them at the -- at the check-point, how you

16 have this information, how you are in a position to be able to tell us.

17 A. When they went to Klina, they did not return until the morning.

18 At 6.00 in the morning, they called me on the telephone from Klina, and I

19 asked him, "My son, Where are you?" He told me that the police had beaten

20 them up and they were feeling very weak, and if I could go and help them.

21 I said, "I can't come and help you because the police are looking for me

22 as well." I asked him, "Where are you?" And he said, "I am at the

23 church."

24 I could hear a door opening and closing, and I did not believe my

25 son, whether he was at the church or at the police station. And I thought

Page 4771

1 maybe the police had forced him to call me, but he swore to me that he was

2 at the church. But still, I did not believe him. I didn't know in whose

3 hands he was. And I told my son, "You know, my son, we have discussed

4 something together. Do you remember?" And he said, "Yes." And I told

5 him then, "Please, go to where we discussed before and try not to fall in

6 the hands of the friend you know." And when he arrived there, he had to

7 get some weapons, at least get a weapon for me as well, and come and take

8 me in Peje. I didn't know where to go.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. And that was the conversation.

11 Q. All right. Thank you. Thank you for recounting that.

12 I just want to be clear about one thing. You said that you told

13 your son something and that your son and you had discussed something

14 together, and you asked him to remember this during the telephone

15 conversation. What topic were you referring to when you said that to your

16 son? What was it that you had discussed and what were you urging him to

17 do?

18 A. I was still scared that he was in the hands of the Serbs, so I

19 didn't want to mention the KLA. That's why I told him, "Go to where we

20 discussed before," but the idea was for them to go and join the KLA.

21 Q. So in your mind when you told him to go where you had discussed,

22 you were referring to Jablanica. Do I understand you correctly?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, did you see this young man, Mahir Dema, again?

25 A. After the war.

Page 4772

1 Q. Okay. Now, when -- can you tell us when that was. Now, was it in

2 1998 that you saw him, or maybe the next year? Can you be a little bit

3 more precise, please.

4 A. After the liberation, after the war.

5 Q. Okay. Do you know how many months after you had telephone

6 conversation that you've just told us about that you next saw Mahir Dema?

7 A. From that moment on, I did not see my son anymore. But after the

8 war, I saw Mahir Dema in Peje and I asked him whether he knew anything

9 about my son, but he was scared. And I asked him, "Why are you afraid?"

10 He said, "Please, don't look for him. Nobody will dare to say anything

11 about it. Let things settle down first." And he said, "I have a friend

12 in Pristina and we will try to find him." That was the conversation.

13 Q. Do you have -- do you know if Mahir Dema ever went to hospital?

14 A. He was in the military hospital in Jablanica; before that, he was

15 in Peje, where he had an operation.

16 Q. Did he have the operation before this episode that you're talking

17 about when your son went --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. I'm not interested then in that. Did Mahir Dema ever talk

20 to you about when he last saw your son?

21 A. He told me that they went to Jablanica, and Mahir was beaten up

22 more severely -- had been beaten up more severely than my son.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. They had asked him -- the police had asked him, "Why have you come

25 to Klina?"

Page 4773

1 Q. Okay. Now, just to be absolutely clear about this, this beating

2 that Mahir and your son also had suffered, was that at the hands of Serb

3 police?

4 A. The Serb police in Klina.

5 Q. All right. Okay. Thank you. Now continue. I was asking you

6 about Mahir Dema and whether he ever spoke to you about when he last saw

7 your son. Please continue.

8 A. He told me about the time when they had gone together to

9 Jablanica, and our army had taken Mahir to the hospital for him to be

10 cured. And my son had joined his companions, his comrades. A couple of

11 days later my son had gone to visit him at the hospital, and they greeted

12 each other and that was the last time he saw my son.

13 Mahir Dema was sent to Istok, former Istok now called Burim, and

14 then he went to Montenegro to get a cure because he was very ill. That's

15 what he told me.

16 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, I just want to ask you this: From

17 what Mahir Dema told you, do you have any idea how long after these two

18 young men set off to go and join the KLA in Jablanica that this hospital

19 visit occurred. About how long after -- after they set off together to

20 join the KLA did Mahir see your son in hospital? Did you -- do you have

21 any information about that from Mahir?

22 A. Yes. He told me about five days later, and after that they did

23 not meet again. This is what Mahir told me because I did not hear

24 anything from my son.

25 Q. Okay. We all understand that you're talking now about what Mahir

Page 4774

1 told you, and I'd just like to move on to another topic. But just before

2 I do, I want us to be absolutely sure so the Trial Judges can understand

3 what you're saying. You understood -- you tell me if this is correct.

4 You understood that the two young men had set off for Jablanica on July

5 10th --

6 JUDGE ORIE: The 10th, Mr. Di Fazio.


8 Q. -- July 10, July 10, 1998, and along the way they were beaten up

9 by Serb police, and about five days later Mahir saw your son in hospital.

10 Now, is my understanding correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And as far as you're aware from what Mahir told you, was that the

13 last time Mahir saw him as well?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't -- perhaps it's just me who is confused by

18 the language "in hospital." I know that Mahir --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, that could be understood in two

20 different ways. We have read the statement of the witness. We have

21 heard his testimony. The two last questions were superfluous, anyhow.

22 And, of course, while in hospital, it is clear that Mahir was the one who

23 was the patient and the other one was visiting. That is so clear from --

24 so, therefore, yes, the language was unclear; but in the context, it was

25 perfectly clear and I wonder how we could have understood the testimony in

Page 4775

1 any other way as you summarized it. So, therefore, the summary was not

2 necessary.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Q. Did you start to make attempts to locate your son?

6 A. Yes. I made several attempts. First of all, I went to Jablanica,

7 and from there I couldn't learn anything. So I went to Klina.

8 Q. Okay. Can I just interrupt you there. I'd like to ask you about

9 Jablanica first. About how long after July 10, 1998, would you say that

10 you went to Jablanica?

11 A. It was after the war; before that, I couldn't go.

12 Q. So was it a matter of months?

13 A. It was late autumn, September, October.

14 Q. Of the same year that your son went off to join the KLA?

15 A. No, no. Before the war ended, I could not go to look for my son.

16 Q. Who did you speak with at --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, let's try to clarify this.

18 Is there any common understanding of the parties on when the war

19 was over?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I --

21 JUDGE ORIE: If there was any war.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, the important thing is for this witness's

23 understanding, if Your Honours please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: No. You ask him same year? He said: No, no, no,

25 before the war ended. And then it seems that you move on to your next

Page 4776

1 question, so the Chamber still doesn't know when he went.

2 Would that be -- but let's perhaps ask the witness ourselves.

3 You said: "After the war was over." How long it took until the

4 war was over after your son had left on the 10th of July?

5 Mr. Krasniqi, could you please answer that question.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was after the war. One or

7 two months after the war, things settled down a little bit, and I asked --

8 started to ask people if they had seen my son.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you said: "After the war." When did the war

10 stop in view of you? Was that in that same summer of 1998? Was it in the

11 winter to follow? Was it in the summer after that? Could you please tell

12 us when you considered the war was over.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in the year 2000, and that's

14 when I started to look for him.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That is, therefore, two years after your son had

16 left; is that correctly understood?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.


20 Q. Why did you wait for two years?

21 A. I didn't know where to go and look for him.

22 Q. Very well. You went to Jablanica. Now, who -- do you know any

23 individual, the names of any individuals that you spoke with at Jablanica?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was the name of the person or persons that you spoke with at

Page 4777

1 Jablanica?

2 A. It was Hamez Ukshini from Jablanica. I spoke with him mostly, but

3 there was another person, Abdul Zeneli, but he couldn't give me any

4 information.

5 Q. And who precisely was Hamez Ukshini?

6 A. I knew him from before. I also knew his father, and that's why I

7 went to him, to ask him for any information that he might have, but he

8 didn't say anything. He didn't give me any information. He said that

9 this name has not existed in Jablanica. It was not here; this name I

10 don't know.

11 Q. Did he know of other names that he -- that had existed at

12 Jablanica? Did he know of other names?

13 A. Yes. He had other names because he said, "I will look in a

14 notebook." And that's when he told me that this name is not registered

15 here. "He was never here."

16 Q. Thank you. That's what I wanted to know. When you were with him,

17 was he looking at some document or something like that to consult names,

18 from what you could see? That's what I would like to know.

19 A. No, no.

20 Q. What was the notebook that he had? Did you -- did that have any

21 names in it?

22 A. He only spoke to me just orally.

23 Q. Did you see him look at a notebook while you spoke to him?

24 A. He did not have any notebook in front of him.

25 Q. Did he say that he would look in a notebook, and that's all you

Page 4778

1 know?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Okay. Now, this gentleman, Mr. Hamez Ukshini, was he

4 a member of the KLA?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know if he held any position within the KLA, whether he was

7 an official or did something specific in the KLA?

8 A. Yes, he had.

9 Q. Can you give us details. What was his job? What was his

10 position?

11 A. As he told me in his house, he said, "I've been here involved with

12 the clinic, with the food, and with the comings and goings from our army.

13 And the name of your son is not anywhere on the lists here," and that was

14 the last time that I saw him or spoke to him. I've never seen him

15 afterwards.

16 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Did you continue in your efforts to --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question to have it clarified.

18 When he was talking about the list, did he explain to you what

19 kind of list these were? Was this a list of KLA members? Was this a list

20 of patients? Was this a list of villagers? Could you tell us?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had the list of the members of

22 the KLA who came in and went out to different directions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

Page 4779

1 Q. Following this episode, did you make further attempts to get

2 information about your son?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was the next step that you took?

5 A. I knew someone, another commander of the KLA. I tried to reach

6 him, but it was very difficult. The policeman helped me to get in touch

7 with him, and I met him in Klina. I waited for him to come out of a

8 hotel, and the policeman said, "Wait, he's coming." So I went together

9 with him; we greeted each other. I went -- we went up to his office on

10 the second floor.

11 Q. Thank you. Can I just ask you to pause there. You said that you

12 knew someone, another commander of the KLA. What's the name of this

13 gentleman?

14 A. He is called Alush Agushi, alias Pipi.

15 Q. How long had you known Alush Agushi, alias Pipi?

16 A. When I came out of prison in 1994, in June, he came to see me in

17 my home, together with the brother of my wife.

18 Q. Thank you. So you had known this man for a number of years, had

19 you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you know him before 1994?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Had you seen him since you met him in 1994 when he came together

24 with the brother of your wife?

25 A. No. No, I had never seen him before that.

Page 4780

1 Q. You met him with the brother of your wife. After you met him with

2 the brother of your wife, after that, did you ever see him again, apart

3 from this incident in Klina; in other words, in between?

4 A. No. No.

5 Q. When you saw him in Klina on this -- in this inquiry that you were

6 making about your son, did you have any trouble recognising him or

7 identifying him? Did you know who he was?

8 A. Yes. Yes, I know him, because we had met during the funerals of

9 the martyrs. We went to pay tribute to those people. We saw each other,

10 but never had a chance to talk.

11 Q. All right. So you met him in 1994, once, when he came to your

12 house with your wife's brother, you saw him at funerals and you saw him

13 again on this occasion in Klina. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, tell us, how did matters develop with

16 Mr. Agushi? What did he tell you, and what did you tell him?

17 A. When we went to the second floor, we sat down and started talking.

18 I asked him whether he knew who I was, and he said, "No." I put on a

19 smile and said, "You remember when you came to visit me in 1994 when I

20 came out of prison," and then he remembered. I told him that I was there

21 looking for my son because I've heard from his fellow soldiers that he was

22 in Jablanica with them. He said, "Wait a moment," and then he went out to

23 another office and took a sheet and started taking notes. I was

24 explaining him details, what I knew, and he told me that, In two weeks'

25 time, I will let you know." And I told him, "One month will do." That's

Page 4781

1 where the conversation ended. I returned home. I waited for a long time,

2 but no reply came.

3 I tried again to contact him, but some friends of mine told me

4 that he has been transferred to Pristina. I was on my own at home, and it

5 was very difficult to travel to Pristina at that time. I went there.

6 They showed me to where the barracks of our army was. There at the

7 entrance, there were some soldiers. I reported. I gave them my name and

8 family name, and they asked me, "What do you want?" I told them, "I want

9 to meet the commander." I gave them my details. I also mentioned them

10 this pseudonym of Ramush Haradinaj, as well as that of Alush Agushi, Pipi.

11 They told me, "You have to wait because they are in a meeting."

12 I waited for a pretty long time. I had no watch on me, but I

13 noticed that it was very late and that the guards -- the guards changed,

14 because they stayed there for several hours and then they changed. And I

15 had to tell the new guards again from the start what I was waiting for.

16 One of them ran into a building nearby and asked me to wait.

17 I waited for quite a while. He came back to say, "You've got to

18 go back to your home and never come back again because no commander is

19 here". But I told him I was told that they are in a meeting. They said,

20 "Go, go. Go back home." And I didn't ask for him, but when I have been

21 to the funerals of the nephews of Ramush Haradinaj -- rather, the funerals

22 of my nephews and Ramush Haradinaj was there, but we didn't greet each

23 other.

24 Q. The result is, I gather from your evidence, that you didn't ever

25 get any information from your trip to Pristina and the barracks, is that

Page 4782

1 correct, the information about your son?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Do you know the village of Bardosan?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, as you know, the Chamber is provided

6 with the witness statements and also with anything that appears new. May

7 I ask your attention, the witness statement, paragraph 15, fourth line

8 contains information which seems not to be without relevance.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: It has not appeared in the testimony until now, and

11 it seems that you're moving to your next subject. Therefore, I wonder

12 either during proofing the situation as changed with the Chamber being

13 informed or whether you would still expect the witness to give this

14 testimony, which might again assist the Chamber in better understanding

15 the totality of the testimony of this witness.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours --

17 JUDGE ORIE: If you come to that at a later stage, then of course

18 it's fine, but it looked as if you're moving to the next subject.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: In, Your Honours. Firstly, there's nothing in

20 proofing.


22 MR. DI FAZIO: The notes you've got represents everything I know.


24 MR. DI FAZIO: He didn't mentioned that.

25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm happy for him to lead. I'm happy for Mr. Di

Page 4783

1 Fazio to lead.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: No, I'm will lead him. I am not trying to conceal

3 it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. You were moving on to Bardosan; whereas, I

5 would expect another person who will --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: No. I will do that.

7 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, when you went to Klina and the police station and

8 you met with this gentleman, Alush Agushi, also known as Pipi, and he went

9 and got his papers and took down details about your son and said that he'd

10 get back to you, did he mention anything about your son having been with

11 him until the Serb offensive in September? Was there any mention made of

12 that by Mr. Pipi -- sorry, Mr. Agushi?

13 MR. TROOP: Can I just interrupt?

14 JUDGE ORIE: No. Perhaps first hear the answer of the witness,

15 unless there's any objection against the question.

16 MR. TROOP: It relates to the question. Mr. Di Fazio isn't

17 reading or isn't using the same phrasing as is used in the witness

18 statement. If he is going to lead, may I ask that he use the accurate

19 wording.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me --

21 MR. TROOP: There's a difference. He said "the Serb offensive,"

22 when in fact the statement said "the first offensive."

23 MR. DI FAZIO: The Serb offensive in September 1998.

24 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think it --

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, "the first offensive of 1998."

Page 4784

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's now try to get it clear for the witness.

2 Did Mr. Agushi tell you anything about your son being with him

3 until an offensive in September?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He told me the same day that

5 he was taking notes, he said that, "He was with us. We were surrounded by

6 the Serbian army and I told my soldiers to go in whatever direction they

7 thought it proper."

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As he said "with us," did he specify for how

9 long?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until the end of September he

11 told me.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio. Well, as a matter of

13 fact, I'm looking at the clock.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm out of time I think. I've got that one minor

15 topic and that will be the end of it tomorrow, for the

16 examination-in-chief, if Your Honours please.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand.

18 Mr. Krasniqi, we have to finish for the day. I'd like to see you

19 back tomorrow morning, the 25th, in another courtroom, in Courtroom I.

20 And I want to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone about

21 your testimony, whether it be the testimony you gave today or the

22 testimony still to be given tomorrow. Is that clear to you?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort

25 Mr. Krasniqi out of the courtroom.

Page 4785

1 [The witness stands down]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, is it correct that we have not yet

3 received a statement for the next witness? Is that correct?

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Re will be making that -- attending to that

5 matter, but I can just inquire of my case manager and find out, if Your

6 Honours please.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if not, then we'd like to receive it as soon as

8 possible.

9 [Prosecution counsel confer]

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe it was sent this morning.

11 JUDGE ORIE: This morning, then I might have missed it.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: This morning. You should have it. If our

13 information is correct, a simple phone call to our case manager will

14 clarify the matter.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then we stand adjourned to tomorrow

16 morning, 9.00, Courtroom I.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Friday, the 25th day of

19 May, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.