Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4786

1 Friday, 25 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 For urgent personal reasons, Judge Stole is unable to sit today.

11 The remaining Judges of this Chamber are satisfied that it's in the

12 interests of justice to continue sitting today. Judge Stole will be back

13 at the first session after today's session.

14 Mr. Krasniqi, may I remind you that you are still bound by the

15 solemn declaration you've given yesterday at the beginning of your

16 testimony. Is that clear to you?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, you may continue your

19 examination-in-chief.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]

24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krasniqi. Mr. Krasniqi, I just want to ask you

25 some questions about -- some personal questions about your son

Page 4787

1 Pal Krasniqi. When he left to go to Jablanica, about that time was he a

2 married or a single man?

3 A. He was single.

4 Q. Do you know if at the time he had a relationship with a Serb or

5 Roma woman or had had in the past any relationship with a Serb or Roma

6 girl?

7 A. I don't know and I don't think he had any relation, any such

8 relation.

9 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you some -- firstly, I'll put the

10 question to you this way: Only answer the question if you're -- if

11 you're sure about the answer, don't speculate, please. Do you know what

12 he was wearing when you last saw him on the 10th of July, 1993 -- 1998?

13 A. So he was wearing trainers, a T-shirt with stripes, and he had a

14 collar which had a red stripe.

15 Q. What article precisely are trainers, what -- what did you mean by

16 that? I just want to be sure about that.

17 A. White towards light blue trainers in colour.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]


20 Q. You've used the expression "trainers," are you referring to

21 shoes?

22 A. It was sport shoes, but not proper shoes, they're different.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you know if your son possessed in July of 1998

24 any --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 4788

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm anticipating a leading question, so I'm

2 rising before it occurs.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't know whether Mr. Di Fazio had it in

4 mind. Mr. Guy-Smith, objection against a leading question is fine, of

5 course, if there are very, very strong reasons to believe that someone is

6 going to put a leading question. Anticipation is -- is not under all

7 circumstances prohibited. But let's try not to be too -- to anticipate

8 too much on what others are going to do.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I wasn't planning on it but based on the language

10 "Do you know if he had," considering the questions asked before, I was

11 jumping to my feet.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: [Microphone not activated] --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I could imagine some 200 questions starting

14 this way not being leading.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: So can I, but --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- based on experience.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm sure there won't be any problem

20 with this.

21 Q. I assume that your son possessed trousers of some form or another

22 in 1998?

23 A. I'm telling you what I know. They -- they changed trousers and

24 T-shirts and shirts among friends.

25 Q. I know -- I understand that. All I want to know is just a simple

Page 4789

1 yes or no, I'm sure you can answer it very quickly. Simple yes or no,

2 your son owned trousers, didn't he, in 19 -- July 1998?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, do you know the village of Bardosan?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, you leave it at this moment --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm going to, yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- where it leaves a bit of a mystery.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I -- if Your Honours wish me to pursue the

9 topic that I -- I --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I didn't know exactly what the relevance is,

11 it of course could be very relevant. I then asked myself to what extent

12 that is so --

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I can --

14 JUDGE ORIE: -- obvious that it might even be assumed without

15 specific questions on the matter, and then of course the answer surprised

16 me a bit. Well, ownership --

17 Mr. Krasniqi, did your son wear trousers usually?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Usually trousers, but at the time

19 he was wearing some sports trousers, sports trainers he calls them.


21 Q. Thank you. What colour were they?

22 A. Blue with a white stripe.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4790

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4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 Q. About how old is he -- was he when he came and spoke to you?

11 A. I don't know his name exactly, but he was married and he was

12 about 35 years old --

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His age, interpreter's

16 correction --

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Previous translation continues]... should be a

18 redaction.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You spoke, Mr. Guy-Smith, when the witness was still

20 speaking. I missed what you said.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I apologise. I don't know whether we should be

22 in private session or perhaps there should be a redaction.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am not --

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we go into private session very briefly?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we move into private session.

Page 4791

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

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Page 4792











11 Pages 4792-4795 redacted. Private session.















Page 4796

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

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8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

15 Mr. Di Fazio, the Chamber, of course, received in addition to the

16 statement also further information about the witness, and mention is made

17 there of animosity between the witness, his son and Ukshini.

18 Now, I could imagine that you consider this relevant information

19 and that could shed, perhaps, some additional light on what happened;

20 nevertheless, I didn't hear anything about it. Of course, it could be

21 that you intentionally would leave it for cross-examination, but, of

22 course, if the Chamber receives what - let me say in the abstract - could

23 be a -- information about a circumstance that could, could, put a

24 different light on what appears to be the gist of what -- of the evidence

25 the Prosecution is presenting at this moment, of course, we are wondering

Page 4797

1 whether that should be explored in one way or the other, so that you

2 either exclude the animosity as -- as a possible explanation for events

3 still not known in detail or whether -- or whether it should be taken as

4 a possibility, a serious possibility, to explain things that happened.

5 I'm just --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I --

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- I'm just wondering whether that needs some

8 attention, yes or no, and whether you'd like to give that attention

9 yourself or whether you are confident that attention will be given to it

10 anyhow in cross-examination.

11 MR. TROOP: Your Honour --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, I would first like to -- yes, please -- I

13 take it that you want -- perhaps not to respond for Mr. Di Fazio but at

14 least to add something.

15 MR. TROOP: I'd like to add something, Your Honour, which is --

16 which is just this: The Chamber has clearly read the witness statement

17 from this witness and I would refer the Chamber to paragraph 18, which is

18 where the evidence that this witness has just given relates.


20 MR. TROOP: And the Chamber will also note that the evidence

21 given by this witness is a great amplification on what was previously

22 said in the statement and a great amplification on what this witness, to

23 our understanding, has ever previously said.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That, however -- yes, please proceed.

25 MR. TROOP: And the concern I have is in relation to the proofing

Page 4798

1 sessions or what happened during the proofing sessions, because the

2 Chamber will note, and the Chamber has picked up, that there was a note

3 recorded by the Prosecution which records the fact that this witness said

4 that Hamez Ukshini, about which this witness has just given evidence, was

5 an enemy.


7 MR. TROOP: Now, we're simply not on notice as to what this

8 witness may have said to the Prosecution. It sounds like there was some

9 form of proofing session with this witness sufficient to at least raise

10 the concern that there was evidence which ought to be recorded.

11 And I raise that concern at this point because at the very end of

12 this witness's evidence, we are faced with new evidence which we haven't

13 had notice of before and of which there appears to be no detailed notice

14 of what this witness may or may not have said during a proofing session

15 which may or may not have taken place.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To some extent, of course, it's speculation.

17 It may have been a very short proofing session. Proofing sessions are

18 not -- I would say I would certainly not expect the Defence to take the

19 view that proofing sessions are obligatory.

20 MR. EMMERSON: May I say just, for the sake of clarification and

21 in order to ensure the position is as accurately recorded as possible,

22 make it clear that although neither Mr. Troop nor Mr. Harvey on behalf of

23 Mr. Brahimaj were present, myself and Mr. Guy-Smith have had a

24 conversation with Mr. Di Fazio about the genesis of the note to which

25 Your Honour has referred, and we have received an explanation from him as

Page 4799

1 to how that note came about. I wasn't alive to the fact that Mr. Troop

2 was going to raise this, but we have received an explanation from

3 Mr. Di Fazio.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you willing to -- I do understand that the

5 explanation is not such that you would immediately join Mr. Troop in his

6 concerns.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Well I --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you be willing to -- I don't know whether you

9 were --

10 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sure Mr. Di Fazio can explain the position for

11 himself. It's just I wouldn't want it to be thought that I sat there

12 silently associating myself with the suggestion that I knew nothing about

13 the circumstances in which this note came about, when I do.

14 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, I'm not at this moment

15 interested that much on how exactly the proofing session went on. I

16 expect that relevant information is given if anything new arises, during

17 these proofing sessions. I find a note in which at least there is a new

18 element, and my concern at this moment was that although that information

19 is there and that looking at it, one would not exclude for the

20 possibility that it could be relevant to understand the events in full,

21 and nevertheless it has not been dealt with in any way during the

22 examination. And of course the Chamber would like to understand the

23 testimony and context as well as can be.

24 Now, I would suggest that during the next break, Mr. Emmerson,

25 you share with Mr. Troop, first of all, the explanation that was given.

Page 4800

1 And if there's any issue remaining, then the Chamber would like to hear

2 of it.

3 Let's first -- Mr. Di Fazio, let's go back to the issue I raised;

4 that is, information that seems to be relevant. Did you intentionally

5 not touch upon it or would you expect Defence to do it? Then, of course

6 I would be satisfied, but --

7 MR. DI FAZIO: It's more a case of not considering it of any

8 great moment, but I'm happy to go into this and to clarify it through the

9 witness as much as possible about this issue, so that it's all clear and

10 everyone knows exactly what his evidence --

11 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it will be clear or not, but at

12 least it's then been dealt with.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: So that it's been dealt with.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- let's --

15 MR. DI FAZIO: It's not a problem at all. I'm more than willing

16 to do that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's not spend then too much time on it, and

18 I'm not seeking lengthy explanation on the matter but I'm just trying to

19 understand what the relevance of the information --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly, I --

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- is going to be.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: -- I can do that. That's absolutely no problem

23 whatsoever.

24 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has put on his headphones again,

25 Mr. Di Fazio.

Page 4801

1 Mr. Di Fazio has one or more additional questions to you,

2 Mr. Krasniqi.


4 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I would like you to explain to the Trial Chamber

5 what your relationship was with this gentleman named Ukshini, and I would

6 like you to tell the Trial Chamber what your relationship was with this

7 man in July of 1998 and what it is now. So let's start firstly with July

8 1998. Did you know him? How did you get on with him? How did you --

9 how did you consider him?


11 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sure Mr. Di Fazio has this in mind, but the

12 note records an issue about the relationship between the witness's son.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But --

14 MR. DI FAZIO: [Microphone not activated].

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Emmerson, this was really too early. I mean,

16 you can introduce a relationship with your son by asking first -- so

17 therefore, you should have left Mr. Di Fazio his line of question.

18 Mr. Di Fazio.


20 Q. So --

21 MR. DI FAZIO: And I will deal with that as well.

22 Q. But my first question is: In 1998, what was your relationship

23 with Ukshini and what is it -- what is it now?

24 A. Ever since Ukshini was a student, I knew him. With his father,

25 Ukshin Besa, we -- we had a good relationship. We visit -- we exchanged

Page 4802

1 visits on occasions and so we knew each other.

2 When I heard that my son was involved in this and that Luz had

3 something to do with it, I went to ask for him. And then I recounted to

4 you the talk we had, but I didn't learn anything from him.

5 Q. Thank you. I'm not entirely clear from that answer whether you

6 enjoyed a good relationship with him in 1998. Can you tell us if -- if

7 that was the case?

8 A. We had a very good relationship with his father because this

9 person, this other person, was very young to stay with us adults when we

10 met together in ceremony or social occasions, but his father, yes. He

11 was young. So, as I said, I went to meet him.

12 Q. Thank you. Do I take it from that answer - correct me if I'm

13 wrong, I'm certainly not trying to make suggestions - but I just want to

14 know: Did you know his father better than you knew Hamez Ukshini? Is

15 that what -- do I understand you correctly?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And was Ukshini -- what age was Ukshini in 1998? Was he about

18 your son's age or younger or older?

19 A. He was twice as old as my son.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, that's all I want to ask you about your

21 relationship with him, but can you tell us what your son's relationship

22 with Hamez Ukshini was in July of 1998, if you know? Don't speculate,

23 but if you -- you can comment on what the nature and the state of that

24 relationship was, please -- please tell us.

25 A. I don't think that he knew him in that camp or whatever we can

Page 4803

1 call him. I don't think they knew each other before they went -- my son

2 went there as a soldiers -- as a soldier.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, for the

4 purposes of the Prosecution, I don't need to carry the matter any

5 further. I'm more than willing to assist the Trial Chamber if you wish

6 me to explore the matter more deeply, but ...

7 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think that we need to ask further questions

8 for the witness. It seems that it would -- the notes would need -- the

9 proofing note or the short message is not quite understandable anymore

10 in -- let's -- let's put it directly, perhaps, to the witness.

11 Are you aware of any problems your son may have had with

12 Hamez Ukshini.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't know each other,

14 Your Honour, they never had -- they could never have any problems.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because this Chamber has received some

16 information -- has received your earlier statement, but the Chamber has

17 also received a very short note about a conversation you had with

18 Mr. Di Fazio, and one line of this note reads as follows:

19 "During this conversation, I informed Mr. Di Fazio that

20 Hamez Ukshini was the enemy of my son."

21 So it was reported to the Chamber that that is what you've told

22 Mr. Di Fazio. Is that a mistake or ...

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not a mistake; it is true.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please explain to us, whereas you

25 said that they didn't know each other, that nevertheless Ukshini was the

Page 4804

1 enemy of your son.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Or is it that you expressed your views on the events

4 that have happened, and that that makes Ukshini an enemy. Is that how we

5 have to understand that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what I meant.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

8 For cross-examination, who will be the first one to cross-examine

9 Mr. Krasniqi?

10 MR. EMMERSON: With Your Honour's permission, Mr. Troop will

11 cross-examine this witness first.


13 Mr. Troop.

14 MR. TROOP: I'm grateful to the other Defence counsel for

15 allowing me to go first.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krasniqi, you'll now be cross-examined by

17 Mr. Troop, who is counsel for Mr. Brahimaj.

18 Please proceed.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Troop:

20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krasniqi.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. I am counsel for Mr. Brahimaj, who sits behind me. I'd like to

23 ask you some questions about events that took place in July 1998,

24 specifically the time that you, your son, and Mahir Dema decided to join

25 the Kosovo Liberation Army, the KLA.

Page 4805

1 A. Mahir Dema came to my house in Peje because he knew my son.

2 Mahir had told my son that they had finished the house in Burimi Mountain

3 and that they wanted to take some food to them. Then he told my son that

4 he had been left alone, his friends had deserted him, so he came to fetch

5 my son to go together.

6 My son said, No, I can't go without asking my father's

7 permission. And then we talked. And that Mahir begged me to let my son

8 to go with him because he said, All the others have joined. And then I

9 said, Okay, go, but take care until you go to Jabllanice.

10 Q. Can I stop you there. I'd like to ask you something -- I'd like

11 now to ask you something about something that Mahir Dema said --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Troop, it usually goes better if you just put a

13 question to the witness because if you announce a certain line of

14 questioning, then the witness picking up the subject starts talking, and

15 it might be more efficient if you just put the question to him.

16 MR. TROOP: I'm grateful, Your Honour.

17 Madam Registrar, could we bring up document 3D010056?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Has that received a number already, Mr. Troop?

19 MR. TROOP: No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, could you please assign a

21 number to it?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D89,

23 marked for identification.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25 MR. TROOP: Can we turn to the second page of that document, and

Page 4806

1 perhaps we can bring up paragraph 2, please.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, what's the date of this statement?

3 MR. TROOP: This is the statement of Mahir Dema --

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes --

5 MR. TROOP: -- dated the 23rd of April, 2007.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.


8 Q. I'm going to read to you something that Mahir Dema has said to

9 the Prosecution, Mr. Krasniqi. He says:

10 "I do not remember the time or day or date when I decided to join

11 the KLA. It was in 1998. Pal Krasniqi told me he knew the way, either

12 because he had been to the KLA zone two weeks earlier or because he had

13 stayed there for two weeks. I'm not sure what he told me."

14 Mr. Krasniqi, you didn't know the way to Jablanica, did you?

15 A. I do because I am from that area.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to speak closer to

17 the microphone, when you are answering the questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krasniqi, could you please come closer to the

19 microphone when answering the questions.


21 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, were you aware whether your son had been to the KLA

22 in Jablanica before he left on the 10th of July?

23 A. I never heard this, and I don't think he was.

24 Q. The next time you heard from your son was the following day at

25 6.00 on the 11th of July. That's correct, isn't it?

Page 4807

1 A. On the 10th, not on the 11th of July.

2 Q. He called you the following morning. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And he said that he'd been stopped at a check-point at

5 Krusha e Madhe?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. He told you that he'd been beaten by the police at that

8 check-point with his friend Mahir Dema?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. He also told you that he was taken to the police station in

11 Klina, didn't he?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that he had been beaten further by the police at the police

14 station?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Both he and Mahir Dema had been seriously beaten, according to

17 what he told you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And he called you specifically to ask for your help, because he

20 needed your help, didn't he?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, it was -- you told him that you couldn't help him, could

23 you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the reason that you couldn't come to help was because the

Page 4808

1 police were looking for you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you explain why the police were looking for you at that time?

4 A. Because I was in prison, and Milutin Prascevic and the brothers

5 and the sons of the person I killed in 1982 were looking for me.

6 Q. I'm going to ask you about that in some more detail a little bit

7 later, but I'd like to continue on the present topic. You --

8 MR. TROOP: Madam Registrar, can I ask you to bring up document

9 U007 --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Troop, I have first a question. Are you

11 intending to tender it, the document you just read from?

12 MR. TROOP: No, not at this stage, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it would be good if you indicate if you

14 bring up a document just for reference or to read from, that there might

15 be no need to give it a number.

16 Madam Registrar, I don't know whether it can be unnumbered, but

17 we are at such an early stage, I think we can reserve that number for

18 other purposes.

19 Now, the next document you would like to have on the screen, is

20 that a document you would like to tender?

21 MR. TROOP: Not at this stage, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Not at this stage. Then we do not -- if you then

23 clearly quote from it - I don't know what kind of a document it is but --

24 MR. TROOP: It's the witness statement given to the Prosecution

25 by this witness.

Page 4809

1 JUDGE ORIE: By this witness, yes. You just read then out the

2 relevant portions, if at least you want to put them to the witness.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. TROOP: Thank you.

5 Madam Registrar, the document is U0079712.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the 29th of February, 2004 statement?

7 MR. TROOP: That's right, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

9 MR. TROOP: And can we turn to page 3 of that document and bring

10 up paragraph 13? I think it's the next page on the Albanian.

11 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'd just like to read to you from a statement you

12 gave to the Prosecution. And you told the Prosecution: "After the war

13 had ended I searched for my son, I had met with Mahir twice ...?"

14 Can you just confirm that it was two separate times that you met

15 Mahir Dema?

16 A. I met him, but I wasn't looking for him and we met in Peje. And

17 he said that until Kosovo is well liberated, I do not dare speak on the

18 subject. So I have never met him since.

19 Q. How many times did you meet him, once or twice?

20 A. I met him once, and then I sent my wife and my nephew to

21 Mahir Dema's house. But I haven't written this down on my statement.

22 Q. And Mahir Dema told you some things related to your son.

23 MR. TROOP: Can we bring up paragraph 9 of the statement, please.

24 Q. And you said to the Prosecution that Mahir Dema had told you

25 that:

Page 4810

1 "When they reached Jablanica, Mahir was taken to hospital to be

2 treated because he had been severely beaten, while my son had received a

3 uniform ..."

4 Is that what Mahir Dema told you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then in the next paragraph, paragraph 10 of your statement,

7 you say that Mahir Dema said that:

8 "... after about a week at Jablanica, my son visited the hospital

9 to see Mahir ..."

10 Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you also told the Prosecution that Pal had gone to the

13 hospital accompanied by two other soldiers. Is that what Mahir told you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'd like to ask you about your meeting with Alush Agushi, and you

16 knew Alush Agushi because he was the KLA commander at Jablanica, wasn't

17 he?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you met him at the police station in Klina?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you explained yesterday what Alush Agushi told you, didn't

22 you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you remember saying that Alush Agushi had said to you that

25 your son had been a soldier with him until the first offensive in

Page 4811

1 September. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would I be correct in thinking that you would not know personally

4 when the offensives were around Jablanica?

5 A. I don't know because I was in Peje.

6 Q. Could I -- if I could explain that the first offensive was

7 actually around Jablanica at the start of August 1998, and the second

8 offensive around Jablanica was towards the end of August and the start of

9 September 1998, and then I'll ask you a question about that. But if

10 that's correct, it doesn't make sense to talk about the first offensive

11 as being in September, because, in fact, the first offensive was in

12 August, early August; wouldn't you agree?

13 A. This is what I heard. I, myself, didn't know.

14 Q. So it could be a mistake, either by yourself or by Alush Agushi

15 as to which of the two offensives he was talking about?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't mind the question. I'm not objecting. I

17 don't want to stand in the way of my colleague getting to his point, but

18 it seems to me that it should be made clear that it's been put to the

19 witness that he's mistaken when he reports to us through his statement

20 that September was mentioned. So, in other words, it --

21 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think -- I think there are two options.

22 Either the month is wrong --

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- or the sequence of offensives are wrong, and this

25 all based on the assumption that there had been more offensives earlier

Page 4812

1 than September. This comes down to logic on the basis of assumptions.

2 I'm not excluding for the possibility that the witness could help

3 us, but I would not too easily expect him to be able to do so. But, of

4 course, you can put it to the witness.

5 Mr. Krasniqi, one of the issues that comes up is that where you

6 told us, or told the Prosecution and us, that your son stayed with

7 Alush Agushi until the first offensive in September, that Mr. Troop

8 expresses some doubt on whether that in September it was the first

9 offensive or whether, perhaps, it was not September but another moment

10 when the first offensive took place.

11 Let's focus specifically on what Mr. Agushi told you. Did he

12 use -- or did he mention September as the moment until when your son was

13 with him?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying that it wasn't my son

15 who told me, but it was Alush Agushi who told me that up until the end of

16 September he was with us and that he is somewhere.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any chance that you -- your recollection

18 that he also told you that it was until the first offensive, that your

19 recollection is not perfect in that respect, that he could have said

20 offensive or not have said first offensive? How sure are you about that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We knew that when the offensive

22 started, they went -- attacked Jablanica and all the people went to the

23 church of Gllogjan, and it was the first offensive and also Alush told me

24 about this.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Troop.

Page 4813

1 MR. TROOP: I'm grateful for that clarification, Your Honour.

2 Q. You also said that Alush Agushi said that during the offensive,

3 they were surrounded by the Serbs and had to retreat. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that he told his soldiers to go in whichever direction they

6 could to seek safety?

7 A. That's what I was told.

8 Q. Subsequently, you reported the disappearance to the UNMIK office

9 on missing persons and forensics, OMPF, didn't you?

10 A. Yes, I understand.

11 MR. TROOP: Madam Registrar, could you bring up 65 ter document

12 identification 928?

13 JUDGE ORIE: You want to tender it, Mr. Troop?

14 MR. TROOP: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if no number has yet been assigned, a

16 number should be assigned.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be then Exhibit Number

19 D89, marked for identification.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21 MR. TROOP: Can we bring up page 3 of that document, please?

22 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'm afraid this document has not been translated,

23 so I will read relevant sections to you, and it will be translated for

24 you. But you can see the document in front of you on the screen?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Troop, the -- at least the -- I have to move on

Page 4814

1 to page 3 that ...

2 MR. TROOP: Your Honour, the initial page is --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see the initial page is in more languages but

4 not page 3. Yes. If you slowly read the relevant portions.


6 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, this appears to be a victim identification form

7 for your son Pal Krasniqi, and I think you can probably see his name at

8 the top of the page, "Krasniqi, Pal." Can you see that?

9 A. I -- I cannot see it because I can't see very well.

10 MR. TROOP: Perhaps we can enlarge the top half for the time

11 being.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Some zooming-in would certainly assist.


14 Q. Can you see that, Mr. Krasniqi?

15 A. Yes, yes, now I can see it.

16 MR. TROOP: Can we move to the bottom half of that document,

17 please?

18 Q. At the bottom of that document, there appears to be a signature

19 of a person from the OMPF, and it's dated the 3rd of December, 2001. Can

20 you see that in the bottom right-hand -- bottom right-hand corner?

21 A. Yes, it's the "12th of 01."

22 Q. I think it says, actually, the 3rd of the 12th/01.

23 A. The 3rd of the 12th/01.

24 Q. You remember reporting the disappearance of your son to the OMPF,

25 do you?

Page 4815

1 A. In which place has it happened?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness speak to microphone, please?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember where it is and

4 where I've seen it.


6 Q. It's not clear from this document, but it may be that it was in

7 Peje.

8 A. If it's the Red Cross, the International Red Cross in

9 Krusha e Madhe, they came and we made a statement in our house to them.

10 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Krasniqi, making a statement to someone

11 around this time, the 3rd of December, 2001?

12 A. I can't remember, but it was a statement to the International

13 Red Cross. There were two males and three females, and it was in

14 Krusha e Madhe that I made this statement to them.

15 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'd like to ask you some -- some questions which I

16 will read in English, and they will be translated to you from this

17 document. Point 4 of this document, it says: "Village/place where MP,"

18 missing person, "last seen." And next to that, it reads: "Nepolje" --

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting, I just

20 want to be clear so I'm following the evidence. What we see before us,

21 is that the statement made on the 3rd of December? Is that what counsel

22 refers to? This is the statement?

23 MR. TROOP: This is a document recording the fact of a --

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't quarrel with that, but I just want to make

25 sure that what we're looking at is a statement is what my learned friend

Page 4816

1 Mr. Troop called the statement, it's this, it's not some other document.

2 MR. TROOP: Sorry, if there's any confusion, I'm referring to the

3 document currently on the screen.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you very much. I'm grateful for that

5 clarification.


7 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, can you remember the question or would you like me

8 to repeat it?

9 A. I'm reading it, but I can't understand what's going on. I've

10 forgotten things.

11 Q. Let me read it again to refresh your memory --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Troop, because you had not put a question to the

13 witness. You started reading but it's a bit difficult for the witness to

14 remember a question which has not been put yet.

15 Please proceed.


17 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, this document says that the village/place where

18 Pal Krasniqi was last seen was near Nepole. Do you remember telling

19 anyone that that was where your son had last been seen?

20 A. I can't remember, but I said that they went together with friends

21 to Nepole to buy cigarettes and food. There were five of them, and it

22 was his friends who told me that they had seen my son buying things and

23 that he went to Jablanica.

24 Q. Why is it recorded here, presumably information from you, that

25 your son was last seen in Nepole?

Page 4817

1 A. I don't think I've said that, but people said that he was seen in

2 Nepole and that he disappeared soon after that. Some said that he went

3 to Gllogjan and that he never returned. There are many rumours going

4 around, but I didn't trust them because I wasn't on site.

5 Q. The next section of this form says that your son Pal was last

6 seen in September 1998?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Troop, in order to avoid whatever confusion,

8 first of all, of course, the questions on this form, which seems not to

9 bear the signature of the witness, at least from what I have to assume -

10 but you have not explored that - the signature at the bottom seems to be

11 the rather of the officer who took the information. I would not even

12 call it a statement. But the question, of course, is last when was the

13 missing person last seen, could be a question when did you see the person

14 for the last time or when, as far as you know, he was seen by whomever.

15 So therefore, please keep that clearly in mind because the witness from

16 his previous answer, I took it that there might be some confusion there

17 which preferably should be avoided.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. TROOP: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, the OMPF have recorded, presumably from you, that

21 your son was last seen by somebody in September 1998. Now, did that

22 information come from you?

23 A. I don't know. I don't think I have said that because I didn't

24 know that piece of information. I know now what I'm saying. In

25 Jablanica, my -- my brother went to Jablanica together with members of

Page 4818

1 the village to ask for my son, and then he -- they told them that he

2 either went towards Peje or Klina. But I haven't made that statement.

3 That piece of information may have been given by somebody else, but not

4 me.

5 Q. I'll move on, Mr. Krasniqi. Mr. Krasniqi, I understand you have

6 a sister called Marijana. Is that right?

7 A. No, she is not my sister.

8 Q. How is Marijana related to you?

9 A. I don't know. I'm hearing it for the first time now.

10 Q. Can I ask you, Mr. Krasniqi, whether you know an individual

11 called Dede Deda?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. As I understand it - and I may be mistaken - he is your nephew.

14 Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. He is the son of your sister?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And he and your son were, despite being slightly different ages,

19 were good friends?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And they met around twice a week until the conflict or the

22 fighting broke out?

23 A. Yes, my son went to his place and he came to our place.

24 Q. They knew each other very well, did they not?

25 A. Yes, yes, because they are relatives.

Page 4819

1 MR. TROOP: Madam Registrar, can I ask that you bring up document

2 3D01-0017?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Any intention to tender it, Mr. Troop?

4 MR. TROOP: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then a number should be assigned to it.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D90,

7 marked for identification.


9 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'm going to ask you to look at a statement given

10 by Dede Deda, your nephew?

11 MR. TROOP: This is a document which has only been provided in

12 English; we do not have a translation.

13 Q. I'd like you to -- I'd like to read to you from the paragraphs

14 and ask you questions based on those paragraphs, if I may?

15 MR. TROOP: Can we bring up paragraph 4, please, on the second

16 page?

17 Q. Dede Deda says this about your son:

18 "Being asked about the person of Pal Krasniqi and I can state as

19 follows: Pal was the son of my uncle from my mother's side. Although he

20 was a few years younger than me, we had a very good relation. Besides

21 the fact" --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- "that we were blood-related, I considered him also as a very

24 good friend and we did a lot of things together."

25 A. Yes.

Page 4820

1 Q. "We met each other approximately twice a week until the conflict

2 broke out."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, that information is true, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'd like to read out another paragraph and ask you

7 whether or not you were aware of this information, so please wait for the

8 question, but I'll read the paragraph out slowly first.

9 Dede Deda says this:

10 "The last personal contact I had with him was in the middle of

11 August 1998. It was around the Catholic holiday, which is celebrated on

12 the 15th of August. Pal called me at home and told me that he is in

13 Jablanica. He informed me that he had a lot of money with him and

14 therefore wanted to meet with me in Gjakove. As a meeting point we

15 agreed on a place where we used to play pool together. The meeting was

16 set up for the same day. Pal didn't say more during this telephone

17 conversation."

18 Then the next paragraph:

19 "After I had received the call, I went the designated place;

20 however, Pal didn't show up as agreed. At this point in time, there was

21 no way to get in contact with him and therefore I went back home. I

22 never heard from him again and I was still hoping that he would be alive

23 somewhere."

24 Now, the question is this: Did Dede Deda tell you about the

25 conversation that he'd had with your son around the middle of August?

Page 4821

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I'd like to come back, Mr. Krasniqi, to something you mentioned

3 much earlier on in the evidence --

4 MR. TROOP: Your Honour, actually, I note the time is half past

5 10.00. Perhaps this might be a convenient break.

6 JUDGE ORIE: If this is a convenient moment for you, then we'll

7 have a break and in view of the redactions to be made, the break should

8 be half an hour. We'll then resume at 11.00.

9 But could you give us an indication how much more time you would

10 need?

11 MR. TROOP: I would estimate about 15 to 20 minutes, Your Honour.


13 And other counsel would need?

14 MR. EMMERSON: Very little, if any time at all.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith?

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: The same.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because, of course, I am thinking about the

18 next witness as well, who is scheduled for one hour. Would there be a

19 possibility that the parties agree during the next break to what extent

20 and what portions the Prosecution could lead because that saves a lot of

21 time. If that's not possible --

22 MR. EMMERSON: I can indicate now that I'm not going to be in a

23 position to agree to the leading of any evidence from that witness.

24 JUDGE ORIE: From that witness.

25 MR. EMMERSON: And, moreover, that the cross-examination of that

Page 4822

1 witness on my behalf will not be short, unless Your Honour imposes a

2 time-limit on it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing I'm seeking is to get through the

4 evidence with utmost precision but then as quick as possible.


6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 11.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Troop, please proceed.

10 MR. TROOP: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'm going to ask you some further questions just

12 for a short period. The first thing I'd like to ask you about is

13 something that you said just before the break. And you said:

14 "My brother went to Jablanica together with members of the

15 village to ask for my son, and they told him that he either went towards

16 Peje or Klina."

17 Now, which brother is this? What's your brother's name?

18 A. He died on New Year's night. His name was Hil.

19 Q. I'm sorry to hear that, Mr. Krasniqi. Do you remember when he

20 went to Jablanica?

21 A. When they shelled, when the Serb forces shelled our village, all

22 of the people moved out of the villages to Jablanica to the mountains.

23 Q. Do you remember --

24 A. Wherever they could go.

25 Q. Do you remember the year, Mr. Krasniqi?

Page 4823

1 A. It was Sunday, the 2nd of July, when they attacked our village

2 and they burned it to the ground.

3 Q. Was that in 1999?

4 A. 1998.

5 Q. I'd just like to clarify this, Mr. Krasniqi, because you have

6 said that your son left on the 10th of July, 1998, but that your brother

7 went to ask for Pal at some point. Logically, that must have been after

8 the 10th of July, 1998.

9 A. I think it was after that because I heard that he went to -- they

10 went to Jablanica and they couldn't meet him.

11 Q. And he told you that Pal had either gone towards Peje or Klina.

12 Is that right?

13 A. No, no, you have misunderstood that. When they asked for him,

14 they were told, We will ask because we saw them in -- Pal Krasniqi in

15 Jablanica. They went to the villages of Zhabel and Grgoc, and several

16 soldiers were told that -- my brother was 56 at the time, and they were

17 told that he had been taken to Peje. But we Albanians know what it

18 means, the expression: "Go to Peje."

19 Q. I'd like to move back in time, Mr. Krasniqi, to something that

20 happened in the early 1980s --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Troop, it would be a good idea that the Chamber

22 also gets to know what Albanians understand by: "Go to Peje."

23 MR. TROOP: Sorry, Your Honour. I was always taught in advocacy

24 never to ask a question where I don't know the answer.

25 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is sometimes different --

Page 4824

1 MR. TROOP: Would you like to ask the question, Your Honour?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you insist.

3 Mr. Krasniqi, what do Albanians think the expression "Go to Peje"

4 means?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour, to say that

6 it's a banal word, expression.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Well --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vulgar.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we'll not be shocked by it, especially the way

10 you introduced it makes clear that you're aware that the language is not

11 specifically yours. Please tell us.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be interpreted in two ways.

13 When -- when they were told, Your cousin has either been taken to Peje or

14 to Klina, and the expression goes: "Go to Peje, sod off." These are the

15 two meanings.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's still not entirely clear, Mr. -- just use

17 the words you would use in your village. Tell us what it means: "Go to

18 Peje."

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So it's the literal sense of the

20 expression, but the way it was used when it was used in the context, it

21 was -- it was said to mean that your godfather has disappeared, not to

22 return ever again.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So just -- do I understand that this means he

24 went to a place from where he'll never return? Is that --

25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honour, and I know

Page 4825

1 that there may be a linguistic issue here, but page 38, line 14, does

2 Your Honour see the words: "Go to Peje, sod off"?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.

4 MR. EMMERSON: I don't know whether the expression "sod off" is

5 familiar to you?

6 JUDGE ORIE: It's not familiar. If you have some language that

7 could explain it to us --

8 MR. EMMERSON: Well, it's an expletive. It, I think -- I don't

9 know how much of an explanation you want.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Is it "get lost" or "go to hell"?

11 MR. EMMERSON: Stronger language than that.

12 JUDGE ORIE: In stronger language than that, yes.

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then at least it has been clarified, so now not only

15 Albanians but also others do understand.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Troop.


18 Q. So your brother -- was it your brother who was told to get lost,

19 in colloquial terms?

20 A. My brother and his several friends were told that my son had been

21 sent either to Peje or to Klina. That means getting a one-way ticket;

22 that is, going on a one-way journey, not to return again.

23 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'd like to bring you to events of the early 1980s

24 and something -- as I understand that your neighbour at the time was a

25 person called Miodrag Saric. Is that right?

Page 4826

1 A. [No interpretation].

2 Q. And at sometime in 1982, he injured your brother Prenk [phoen]

3 with an axe. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. There was a -- there was a dispute between the two of you, and it

6 was something to do with animals grazing. Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was -- what ethnicity was Miodrag Saric? Was he a Serb or a

9 Montenegrin?

10 A. He was from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 Q. And of what ethnicity was he?

12 A. His mother was Montenegrin, and he was from Bosnia-Herzegovina,

13 he'd come from there.

14 Q. And the result of the -- as a result of the dispute, you took a

15 gun and shot him, didn't you?

16 A. Yes, but, sir, have you called me here to talk about this or

17 what? I'm sorry to have said that.

18 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Krasniqi, but I just need to explain and have the

19 Court understand why the Serbs were looking for you so many years later,

20 and I think this puts it into context, just for your information.

21 And you were convicted, weren't you, by a court and sentenced to

22 15 years imprisonment?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And I'm sure you remember at the time, it was widely reported in

25 the media, in the newspapers, on the radio --

Page 4827

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You may not know it, but it was also reported in international

3 press. Were you aware of that?

4 A. Yes, all the media wrote about it, the radio had the story.

5 Although I killed him, but I was sentenced and convicted without the

6 respect of the law.

7 Q. I understand that. You served close to the full sentence of 15

8 years, didn't you?

9 A. 12 years and a bit.

10 Q. And again, when you were released, even after you were released,

11 the fact that you had killed Miodrag Saric was reported again in the

12 media, wasn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And it was widely known what had happened so many years before?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you explain who Milutin Prascevic is, please?

17 A. I knew his father and his grandfather. He was a commander for

18 the area, including Gjakove, that was for killing people -- for ordering

19 the killing of Albanians and so on.

20 Q. What was his -- what was his position? You said he was

21 commander, but he was commander of what?

22 A. Commander of the Gjakove area for all the territory of the

23 Gjakove region.

24 Q. Was he a police commander?

25 A. He was the commander of all of the police, of the army. Nobody

Page 4828

1 dared to oppose him, to challenge him.

2 Q. And you said that the brothers and the sons of Miodrag Saric were

3 also looking for you in 1998. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. They must have been looking for you for some time?

6 A. They were looking for me in Klina, and I had left Klina and moved

7 to Peje. And they ordered the Klina police to capture me, and they

8 called Peje but they didn't know me in Peje. That's how I escaped. I

9 was staying -- I was staying in Peje without an address, a publicly known

10 address.

11 Q. How long had you been having problems with the police in the

12 area?

13 A. In 1998, there were killings and -- but up until 1999, everybody

14 had left Peje but I stayed there. And then I went to the train station

15 and moved out of Peje in the opposite direction to reach Klina and the

16 village of Krusheva. And that's where I stayed with my wife's relatives

17 until the war was over.

18 Q. Not only the police, but also the brothers and the sons of

19 Miodrag Saric were looking for you to take revenge, weren't they?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All the police knew who you were, didn't they?

22 A. Yes, everybody knew.

23 Q. And when Pal was detained in the police station on the 10th and

24 11th -- on the police station on the 10th and 11th of July, 1998, they

25 would have known that he was your son, wouldn't they?

Page 4829

1 A. Yes, yes, they knew.

2 Q. And no doubt your son had had problems, simply by virtue of the

3 fact that he was the son of someone who had killed a Serb, Miodrag Saric?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: A Serb, or whatever his ethnicity was --

6 MR. TROOP: I apologise. Yes.


8 MR. TROOP: I'm grateful, Judge Hoepfel, for that clarification.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from that, if there would be a possibility

10 to lay a foundation on what in the police station on the 10th and 11th of

11 July, what would have been known, that's of course -- I don't know to

12 what extent the witness can give any factual foundation for what at first

13 sight looks more an inference or perhaps even speculation.

14 Please, if you could do that, please do so.

15 [Defence counsel confer]


17 Q. You spoke to Pal Krasniqi on the early morning of either the 10th

18 or the 11th of July, 1998, didn't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And he said that he had been detained by the Serbian police in

21 Klina police station, didn't he?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And he told you that he'd been interrogated and asked who he was,

24 where he was going?

25 A. No, he didn't say that, but I was told about that later.

Page 4830

1 Q. It would have been --

2 A. Rather, he told me -- he asked me to help him get out of there.

3 Q. And did the -- did he tell you whether the police knew who he

4 was, that he was your son?

5 A. Yes, he knew him, the police knew him.

6 Q. And when you say the police knew him, you mean to say that the

7 police knew that he was your son?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Just wait there, for a second, whilst I confer with my colleague.

10 [Defence counsel confer]


12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. Those are the questions I wanted to ask

13 you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to have one matter clarified in relation to

15 these last questions.

16 Could you tell us, Mr. Krasniqi, you said the police knew who

17 your son was and that he was your son. In this telephone conversation or

18 in your conversations later with Mahir, did they tell you in more detail

19 what the police knew about your son and his father?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When -- my son went to the

21 elementary school in Klina, and the disagreements -- due to the

22 disagreements between Albanians and Serbs at school, he was quarrelling

23 with them. He had rows with the Serbs, and they knew that I was in

24 prison at the time.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did your son tell you specifically that

Page 4831

1 reference was made by the police when on the 10th or the 11th of July,

2 specifically reference was made to -- well, that's to say your past, that

3 is, the fact that you had been convicted for killing Mr. Saric?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't hear any such thing,

5 and I didn't meet my son after that to hear what he was actually told

6 when he was being beaten up.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If I say, therefore, that it was your assumption

8 that they would have been known, is that correct, or is there any further

9 information that makes you believe that those police officers were aware

10 of your past?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they knew my son. They knew

12 that he was my son, and they knew me, the police, that is.

13 JUDGE ORIE: But then again, is that just your assumption or who

14 did tell you exactly what the police asked or said at that moment, the

15 10th and the 11th of July, which further supports your belief that they

16 were aware of your past?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were several incidents with

18 the police when I was released from prison. The young people at school,

19 they divided in two camps: The Serbian boys on one side and the

20 Albanians on the other, and they fought against each other. And that's

21 why I thought that they knew who he was, and before he left I advised

22 him, Take care of yourself because you're young.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And may I just get back to that one sentence when

25 you said to your son when he got out of, to take care. You first

Page 4832

1 mentioned a while ago you connected this somehow with the place he was

2 going to. Did I misunderstand you or did you specifically warn him to

3 take care when going to Jablanica?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, when he was in Klina -- because

5 when he went to Jablanica, then I never saw him again.

6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Just before when he left, I mean, did you give

7 him a special warning or what was the gist of what you said to him?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I advised him when he left, when he

9 set out together with Mahir to go to Jablanica, I told him to avoid

10 check-points, which were very many at the time, because the police will

11 recognise you and they may kill you and you're young. So when you go

12 there, try to go via Bistrica to Jablanica, but unfortunately they were

13 held at a check-point and that's where they were stuck.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Troop.

15 MR. TROOP: Your Honour, there's just one point which I suggest

16 might assist with clarifying, and that's how the witness knew the

17 information about what had happened at the police station on the 10th,

18 11th July. Perhaps I could ask one or two questions about that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would like to, please do so.


21 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, we know that your son was detained in the Klina

22 police station on the 10th or 11th of July and that he told you that by

23 telephone conversation.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you speak to Mahir Dema later about what had happened in the

Page 4833

1 police station with Pal Krasniqi?

2 A. Only when he was released, it was after the war, because in the

3 meantime I didn't see him.

4 Q. And when you spoke to Mahir Dema about what had happened that

5 night, did he tell you what had happened to both of them -- both of them

6 in the police station?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that's the basis for your understanding that the police

9 recognised him and knew who he was?

10 A. The police knew from before who he was, but when they took them

11 to Klina at night and when they read their driving licence, they beat

12 Mahir Dema more, they asked -- telling him: Why have you come here to

13 Klina from Istog and because he was a Muslim, because they used these

14 religious differences, you know, to -- against them. There was a Serb

15 there, a high-ranking leader in Kline, he recognised my son because those

16 from Belgrade, of course, didn't know who Pal was, and they beat them,

17 but they beat Mahir more than my son because this person who knew my son

18 said, Don't beat him so much because he's a good lad. That's why they

19 refrained from beating him as much as they did Mahir.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi.

21 MR. TROOP: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless then, two follow-up questions in this

23 respect, Mr. Krasniqi. You said it was a Serb, a high-ranking leader, in

24 Klina. Do you know his name?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lazar Zivkovic.

Page 4834

1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, who told you that this man had said, Don't beat

2 him so much because he's a good lad? Who told you that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mahir told me. He said it was a

4 policeman who saved Pal because those were about to kill us. They told

5 my son to go home and they wanted to keep Mahir, but my son said, I won't

6 leave this place alone without Mahir because they left together,

7 intending to go where they wanted, you know.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then they were held up there.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, Mr. Guy-Smith, any need for further

11 questions in cross-examination?


13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith?

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, any need to re-examine the witness?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Just one or two very brief matters, if I may.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

18 Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

19 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you were asked some questions about -- arising from

20 a statement that Dede Deda gave, and I'd like you to just look at some of

21 those aspects of that statement.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: So could that statement, please, be made available

23 on the screen; it's D90, I believe. Okay. It's the second page that I'm

24 interested in, page 2 of 3. Thank you.

25 Q. You were asked in cross-examination by counsel for the Defence

Page 4835

1 did -- this question:

2 "Did Dede Deda tell you about the conversation he had with your

3 son around the middle of August?"

4 And you said: "Yes."

5 And you were shown the statement and it -- when did you speak to

6 Dede Deda and when did he report to you this conversation that he had had

7 with your son Pal in the middle of August 1998? When did you speak to

8 Deda -- Dede, rather?

9 A. We spoke after I made the statements, because he was reluctant to

10 tell me then. Hearing words here and there, he told me what happened.

11 He told me, You know that we were together, and I feel sorry that no sign

12 is seen of him anywhere. And then he explained to me what they had

13 talked between them.

14 Q. When Dede Deda reported this to you, did he provide any details

15 as to where Pal apparently was when he made the phone call?

16 A. He was in Jablanica and with his mobile phone or walkie-talkie

17 they talked, and he explained that he was in Jabllanice, telling him that

18 I have a lot of money and that you should wait for me at this place.

19 Q. Okay. And they were the details that Dede Deda told you;

20 correct? Do I understand you correctly?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did your son own a mobile phone?

23 A. I don't know whether he had a mobile phone or his friends had,

24 but Dede told me that they had spoken on the phone. And I said, This is

25 a secret, beware, you shouldn't talk, you know, civilians and army

Page 4836

1 members.

2 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber if at the time in -- and I'm

3 talking about August 1998, there were any telephone connections with

4 Jablanica?

5 A. They didn't have fixed-line, but whoever could afford it bought

6 mobile phones and those which are called walkie-talkie. I don't know

7 where they found them.

8 Q. Did your son have a lot of money with him when he left you on

9 July 10?

10 A. No, no, he didn't. Maybe he had 50 Deutschemarks.

11 Q. What work was your son doing at the time? What was his job?

12 A. He just helped out someone doing errands here and there,

13 physical, manual labour, and we were paid for that.

14 Q. Did Ded -- I'm sorry, I'll get this name right eventually. Did

15 Dede Deda comment or provide you with any information as to the manner of

16 speech, the way Pal Krasniqi spoke when he made contact with this mobile

17 phone or walkie-talkie?

18 A. No, it was a brief conversation, at least this is what he told

19 me; it didn't last long. Of course, they were afraid lest someone might

20 intercept their conversation, that's why they didn't speak at length.

21 Q. When you say: "They were afraid lest someone might intercept

22 their conversation," is that something you think was a consideration that

23 they were taking into account, or you were told that that was the reason

24 why they didn't talk long?

25 A. When Dede talked with my son, they kept it brief. This is what

Page 4837

1 he told me. And then he went out to wait for my son, who never showed

2 up.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions, I take it, from Defence

5 counsel?

6 Mr. Krasniqi, this concludes your evidence in this court. I'd

7 like to thank you very much for having come to The Hague and for having

8 answered all the questions. If you would excuse me for one second.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE ORIE: I, therefore, wish you a safe trip home again.

11 Before I ask the usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom, I'd

12 like to hear from the parties whether the usher on his way back could

13 immediately bring the next witness.

14 Mr. Re, next witness could be brought into the courtroom right

15 away?

16 MR. RE: Yes, Your Honour. No protective measures are required.


18 Then, Mr. Usher, would you escort Mr. Krasniqi out of the

19 courtroom.

20 I wish you a safe trip home, again, Mr. Krasniqi.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Looking at the clock, I see that we have got another

25 two hours, of which 20 minutes will be taken by a break, that means 1

Page 4838

1 hour and 40 minutes. The parties are encouraged to use that time as

2 efficiently as possible, so in order to see whether it would be possible

3 to finish the witness today so that he can return, especially because

4 we're not sitting next Monday. He would have to stay for quite a while

5 in The Hague perhaps just for 15 or 20 minutes. So the parties are

6 encouraged to see what they can do in this respect.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Is there any possibility, Your Honour, in the next

8 break of ascertaining whether there's any room for flexibility in terms

9 of continuing on, a little beyond quarter to 2.00?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Of course we'll do that. At the same time, it's not

11 only courtroom time, it's also what we can ask from interpreters and

12 transcribers.

13 MR. EMMERSON: I understand. I entirely understand.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That is limited. So I would very much encourage the

15 parties to see whether they could even conclude with the witness without

16 an additional request.

17 Meanwhile, I take the time to say a few words about scheduling.

18 On the 6th of June, I think that was already announced, we are not

19 sitting because the Appeals Chamber needs the courtroom.

20 Earlier, I've announced that we would try to swap the 15th of

21 June, that is a Friday, usually we are not sitting on a Friday, from

22 afternoon to morning; that turns out to be impossible.

23 That means in that week, Monday, the 11th, we are not sitting.

24 We are sitting on the 12th, the 13th, and the 14th, and on that Friday,

25 the 15th of June, we'll sit in the afternoon and not in the morning.

Page 4839

1 Then as far as the other Fridays are concerned in the month of

2 June, that is the 8th, we are not sitting; the 22nd we're not sitting;

3 and on the Friday, the 29th, we are not sitting either.

4 July: Friday the 6th, we are not sitting; we have some time off

5 the week after that, that was announced already on a specific request of

6 Mr. Emmerson; Friday the 13th, I think we still have to look at how that

7 will be in view of the whole of that week; but we also intend not to sit

8 on the 20th of July -- am I now mixing up -- let me just check.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Friday, the 20th of July, we'll not be

11 sitting, but for July the same is valid that if there would be any

12 specific need we might decide otherwise, in view of the circumstances at

13 that moment, and that might, especially on Friday, the 20th of July,

14 which is one of the last, last days before our break and the recess.

15 Good afternoon. Can you hear me in a language you understand?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gashi, before you give evidence, the Rules of

18 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The usher

20 will hand out to you, now, the text of this solemn declaration. May I

21 ask you to stand and to make that solemn declaration?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Gashi. You'll first be examined by

25 Mr. Re, who's counsel for the Prosecution.

Page 4840

1 Mr. Re, please proceed.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examination by Mr. Re:

5 Q. Good afternoon. Is your name Medin Gashi?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And were you born on the 3rd of February, 1980?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You were born in Peje, in Kosovo?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And is your father the late Kemajl Gashi?

12 A. Kemajl, yes.

13 Q. What year was your father born?

14 A. I don't know. I'm sorry.

15 Q. In 1998, where was your father living?

16 A. In Peje.

17 Q. Who was he living with?

18 A. In 1998?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. With his family.

21 Q. Were you living with him?

22 A. We lived separately. He lived in one room; I lived in another

23 room.

24 Q. Was he 43 in that year?

25 A. I think so, yes. I'm not sure.

Page 4841

1 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown 65 ter Exhibit 760?

2 Q. What was his occupation?

3 A. My father worked at a shoe factory.

4 Q. Making shoes?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was he a member of any political organisation?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What was his ethnicity?

9 A. Can you repeat the question, please? I don't understand it.

10 Q. Was he a Kosovo Albanian?

11 A. He was an Albanian of Kosovo, yes.

12 Q. And what was his religion?

13 A. Muslim.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number for the ...

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P325,

16 marked for identification.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18 MR. RE:

19 Q. Can you look at the photograph on the screen in front of you? Is

20 that a photograph of your late father, Kemajl Gashi?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was your father -- were you aware of your father's political

23 affiliations in 1998?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you aware of whether he had sympathies for the Serbian

Page 4842

1 authorities in Kosovo?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Do you know whether he was working for or with the Serbian

4 authorities in Kosovo in 1998?

5 A. To my recollection, no.

6 Q. What do you mean by "to my recollection"?

7 A. Because I was very young at that time, and I don't remember

8 whether he did or not.

9 Q. What were you working at in 1998?

10 A. Who?

11 Q. You.

12 A. I -- I tried to -- to do everything. I sold produce and -- at

13 the bazaar, doing -- working as a mechanic, any work I could find.

14 Q. In the middle of 1998, were you living in Peje?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you aware of the existence of the UCK or KLA in that area at

17 that time?

18 A. Can you repeat the question because I didn't understand it?

19 Q. You know what the KLA is?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you know about them in the middle of 1998, when you were

22 working and living in Peje?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What did you know about them?

25 A. That it is an army, our army.

Page 4843

1 Q. What do you mean by "our army"?

2 A. An army.

3 Q. For the Kosovar Albanians, is that what you mean?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Did you sympathise with the aims of the KLA against the Serbian

6 authorities?

7 A. Can you repeat it, please?

8 Q. Did you believe in what they were doing in fighting the Serbs?

9 A. I don't understand the question.

10 Q. Did you join the KLA?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Why did you join the KLA?

13 A. Because I wanted to.

14 Q. Why did you want to join the KLA?

15 A. This is how I thought, how I felt, together with my friends.

16 Q. What was it about the KLA that made you want to join it?

17 A. [No interpretation].

18 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness be asked to repeat his answer?

19 I didn't understand it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gashi, could you please repeat your last answer

21 because the interpreters could not hear you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Because I liked to join it.

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. Why did you want to join it? Can you tell the Trial Chamber --

25 no one here knows you. We want to know why you wanted to join the KLA in

Page 4844

1 1998?

2 A. I liked it. I wished to join.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, if I may just intervene for one second.

4 From reading the statement of the witness, it gave the impression that

5 what the witness knew about the KLA, what actually moved him to join,

6 et cetera, seems not to be the core of the testimony we would expect. Of

7 course, if there's any specific relevance to explore this field in quite

8 some detail, then of course I'm not going to stop you. But it gave me

9 the impression that the events that happened after he had joined were of

10 major importance for the testimony rather than exactly the motivations

11 and knowledge, and so this is -- I asked -- I urge the parties to see

12 whether they could move as efficiently as possible.

13 MR. RE:

14 Q. How did you come to join the KLA? What did you do to join the

15 KLA?

16 A. I went there with a woman from Klicine. There we joined -- I

17 joined the KLA.

18 MR. RE: I've been told I can't lead, otherwise I would have led

19 him on where he went to.

20 MR. EMMERSON: I'm happy for Mr. Re to lead on essential matters

21 of that kind.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please --

23 MR. EMMERSON: As soon as I'm not happy for him to lead, I'll

24 indicate, if I may.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

Page 4845

1 MR. RE:

2 Q. Did you go to -- did you join the KLA in Barane?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you go there through Klicine village and arrive in Brelic on

5 the way, and there was a KLA check-point in Brelic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you got to Barane, did you report to the KLA headquarters?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. EMMERSON: That point has now been reached.


11 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

12 MR. RE:

13 Q. Why did you go to Barane? What other KLA --

14 A. Went there to join the KLA.

15 Q. Why Barane? Were there other KLA places you could have gone to?

16 A. Because it was closer to where I lived, and I didn't know any

17 other place other than that.

18 Q. What happened when you got to -- sorry, I withdraw that.

19 Whereabouts in Barane was the KLA headquarters?

20 A. At a school building.

21 Q. I'm going to show you a photograph which is 65 ter 1343, and

22 while that's coming I'll ask you another question.

23 Who did you speak to when you got to the school?

24 A. Me -- I entered the headquarters, I reported there.

25 Q. Who did you report to and what was their response when you

Page 4846

1 reported there?

2 A. The guard took me into the office where I reported. Initially,

3 they did not want -- didn't want to take me on because I was too young.

4 I begged them that I wanted to join, and they finally did relent and

5 accept it.

6 Q. Can you just look at the photograph on the screen there --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P326,

9 marked for identification.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 MR. RE:

12 Q. Was that the school in Barane where you went?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. Do you remember going to an oath-taking ceremony in Barane in the

15 summer of 1998?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How long after you joined the KLA in Barane was that oath-taking

18 ceremony, just approximately, days or weeks?

19 A. Probably a week or two, but I'm not sure.

20 Q. If I tell you that the date marked on the video is the 20th of

21 July, 1998, does that help your memory?

22 A. Not really.

23 Q. When you joined the KLA, were you given training or weapons or

24 uniform?

25 A. No, no uniform. A weapon I got two weeks later. We were

Page 4847

1 trained.

2 Q. What sort of training did you do and where did you do it?

3 A. In the -- in the fields around, we got trained there. We ran, as

4 usual, different exercises.

5 Q. Can you just very briefly tell -- tell the Court what those usual

6 different exercises were?

7 A. We ran, we played football, and so on.

8 Q. What about military training, did you receive any military-type

9 training?

10 A. Yes, but not much.

11 Q. Did you do any military-type exercises?

12 A. Yes, as I said, very little, three, four days.

13 Q. Who was training you?

14 A. There was a military man called Ardijan from Peje.

15 Q. Was he in uniform?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Did you do any military training such as digging trenches or

18 martial arts, or any of the other normal types of military training?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you remember how long you stayed in the KLA in terms of days,

21 weeks, or months?

22 A. No. It seems like three and a half weeks or four, but I can't

23 exactly remember.

24 Q. What sort of weapon were you given after about two weeks?

25 A. Popov 10-millimetre.

Page 4848

1 Q. What sort of weapon is that: Long-arm or short-arm?

2 A. It's a rifle, the brand name is Popov, 10-millimetre.

3 Q. Were there other recruits taking part in this training and these

4 exercises you did?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Who did you do the training with?

7 A. With friends. The training was conducted by Ardijan from Peje.

8 Q. Where were you staying?

9 A. I didn't understand this. Can you repeat it, please?

10 Q. Were you staying in the school?

11 A. Yes, at the school.

12 Q. Where were you sleeping?

13 A. On the second floor of the school.

14 Q. How many other people were sleeping there?

15 A. I don't know. There were many, but I don't know exactly.

16 Q. When you say "many," do you mean more than ten, less than ten,

17 more than 20, less than 20, 50, 100? What do you mean?

18 A. Where we were, probably in one and the same room there were 20,

19 22 people.

20 Q. How many KLA soldiers were in the school, approximately?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. What about duties, what duties were you given after you were

23 given your rifle?

24 A. Cleaning, guarding duties in the kitchen, helping out.

25 Q. What were your guard duties? What were you guarding?

Page 4849

1 A. I was a guard with a weapon, with a rifle.

2 Q. Were you guarding the school?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who is Musa Draga?

5 A. My commander.

6 Q. Did you know him before you joined the KLA in Barane?

7 A. No, no.

8 Q. Did you go to the oath-taking ceremony in Barane?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. I'm just going to play you a short clip of video Exhibit D41 from

11 timer --

12 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, just before that --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

14 MR. EMMERSON: Just before that's played, may I just raise one

15 matter, perhaps with the witness's earphones not on?


17 Mr. Gashi, do you understand any English?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you take off your earphones for a

20 second, please?

21 Mr. Emmerson.

22 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour will recall this videotape has a

23 Defence exhibit number because it was a document that was to be used in

24 the cross-examination of Rrustem Tetaj, but which was not, in fact, used

25 because of time constraints --

Page 4850

1 JUDGE ORIE: You announced that it would be played today --

2 MR. EMMERSON: In cross-examination. But Mr. Re is obviously

3 going to play it in chief. In order to avoid duplication and to save

4 time, the video will show Tahir Zemaj and Ramush Haradinaj both standing

5 together on the platform addressing this group of recruits, and rather

6 than take time asking the witness to go through and identify the

7 individuals concerned, if I can simply draw Your Honour's attention to

8 that fact. There is also an individual who is walking up and down the

9 line examining the troops, it might be helpful for this witness to

10 identify that individual.


12 Mr. Re --

13 MR. RE: No, no, it's not acceptable. Mr. Emmerson is just

14 taking a chunk of my time. I wish to show the witness one minute of the

15 video just to identify the video. That's it. I'm not following his

16 suggestions as to who I'm going to --

17 JUDGE ORIE: So then we'll have to play it later on, again. I'll

18 allow --

19 MR. RE: It's up to him how he conducts his cross-examination.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: No. Mr. Emmerson, in deviation from the normal

22 order is allowed, once you've played that, to ask the witness to identify

23 a person he's interested in which avoids us to play it at a later stage.

24 MR. RE: Does many Emmerson have the timer? I mean, he told me

25 before -- I could have taken him to this. I have a selection from 3

Page 4851

1 minutes 26 --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Sorry, let's proceed--

3 MR. RE: I don't know where he wants to go --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, let's proceed. Show the video to the

5 witness. And I do understand that identification of the other persons is

6 not needed.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. RE: I'm just showing the witness for the record at timer

9 3.26 to 4.38 of Exhibit D41.

10 [Videotape played]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I didn't see anyone walking in the

12 background, perhaps --

13 MR. EMMERSON: In fact, from that passage the question can be

14 asked, and it's -- because the individual concerned, although not walking

15 up and down --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I'll allow you to do that after Mr. Re has

17 put his questions in relation to this. And if you would have the exact

18 time moment, then we could already ask that portion to be -- to be

19 retrieved for your question.

20 Mr. Re.

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. Mr. Gashi, did you see that video, I think, for the first time

23 yesterday in the offices of the Prosecution, here?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you view the whole video which goes for about an hour and

Page 4852

1 a half?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you attend that ceremony?

4 A. I didn't see myself there.

5 Q. Do you remember where you were in the ceremony?

6 A. I don't know because it was a bit crowded. There was many people

7 there and I don't know.

8 Q. You weren't one of the soldiers wearing a uniform standing as

9 people were speaking to them?

10 A. I was without a uniform --

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sorry to interrupt. Was that then made clear by

12 the witness that this was the very ceremony he himself also attended?

13 MR. RE:

14 Q. Just to clarify that for Judge -- for the Judges, you were there

15 but you couldn't see yourself in video?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

19 MR. RE:

20 Q. And do you remember Ramush Haradinaj addressing the soldiers

21 there?

22 A. I can't remember that.

23 Q. Did you know him before that or had you ever heard of him or seen

24 him before that day?

25 A. No. Only on television I saw him.

Page 4853

1 Q. Before or after?

2 A. No, no, before, when I was in Peje, before going to -- before

3 going to Barane. I heard people talking about Ramush, Ramush, but I

4 hadn't seen him.

5 Q. And did you connect the Ramush, Ramush, with the person who was

6 addressing the soldiers when you saw -- when you were there that day? I

7 mean, was that the same Ramush, is what I'm asking you?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. And what about Tahir Zemaj, do you remember him being there

10 talking to the crowd?

11 A. I didn't know him.

12 MR. RE: Those are my questions on the video, if Mr. Emmerson

13 wants to interpose now.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's one issue which is not entirely clear.

15 You said you had seen Mr. Haradinaj on television. Mr. Re asked you

16 whether that was before or after the ceremony. You said before and you

17 heard people talking about Ramush, Ramush. Did you already before the

18 ceremony see him on television or did you just hear about him?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had heard about him, yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Not seen him?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Did you also at that time had seen him on television

23 already?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


Page 4854

1 Mr. Emmerson, if there's any specific portion, would you please

2 point at it?

3 MR. EMMERSON: It's simply one question, and it may be that it

4 can be dealt with without the witness viewing the video again.


6 MR. EMMERSON: At the very end of that passage of video, there

7 was a man standing on the platform addressing the group of soldiers. Can

8 I ask you this: Do you know who Nazif Ramabaja is?


10 MR. EMMERSON: And do you know the identity of the man who is

11 shown in that -- in that very last piece of footage that we saw standing

12 on the balcony addressing the soldiers?


14 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

16 MR. RE:

17 Q. Did you take the oath with the other soldiers in that oath-taking

18 ceremony shown in the video?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you given a certificate of membership after taking the oath?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you still have that or what happened to it?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Once you joined the KLA in Barane, did you go home to visit your

25 family while you were still in the KLA?

Page 4855

1 A. No, I didn't go.

2 Q. What about your sister, you've got a sister called Ganimete?

3 A. Yes. She was in Buqan.

4 Q. How far is Buqan from Barane?

5 A. About 90 minutes, one hour, I don't know.

6 Q. Is that by foot?

7 A. Yes, on foot.

8 Q. Did you see her while you were staying in the school of the KLA?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Was there someone there called Agim at the school of the KLA with

11 you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who was he?

14 A. A colleague of mine. I shared a room with him.

15 Q. Where was he from? What was his village?

16 A. He was from Rasuje.

17 Q. How far is Rasuje from Barane?

18 A. Probably one hour.

19 Q. Now, did he ask you to do something one day?

20 A. To me, nothing.

21 Q. Did he tell you, you had to go somewhere?

22 A. Yes, to an office.

23 Q. What did he say to you about what you had to do?

24 A. He came up to the room, and he said I should go downstairs

25 because Musa Draga was asking for me. I went downstairs.

Page 4856

1 Q. Where did you go to?

2 A. To the office of Musa Draga.

3 Q. Where was his office?

4 A. It was on the first floor.

5 Q. Of the school?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did Musa Draga say to you?

8 A. Musa Draga told me to go to Mete.

9 Q. Now, who's Mete?

10 A. Mete Krasniqi. Before he was known as Mete Vranoci.

11 Q. What was his position?

12 A. He was a military police officer. He was wearing a black

13 uniform. I don't know what his rank was or his duty.

14 Q. Now, Musa Draga told you to go and meet -- go to Mete. Did you

15 go to Mete?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where did you go to?

18 A. To Mete's office.

19 Q. Where was Mete office?

20 A. Mete's office was about 100 metres from the school building.

21 Q. And you can't see that in the photograph of the school I showed

22 you before. Is that correct?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. Did you go with anyone else to Mete's office or did you go by

25 yourself?

Page 4857

1 A. On my own.

2 Q. Now, is Mete still alive?

3 A. No.

4 Q. What happened to Mete?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. How do you know that he's dead then?

7 A. That's what people are saying, that he's dead, but I don't know.

8 Q. What sort of building was Mete's office in? Can you describe the

9 building to the Trial Chamber, what it was made of and how many rooms it

10 had?

11 A. Yes, there were two rooms. I saw a corridor and a room. It was

12 100 metres away from the school.

13 Q. How many floors or storeys did the building have?

14 A. It was a one-floor building.

15 Q. Did you go inside the building?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who was in there?

18 A. Mete and two others.

19 Q. You said a moment ago, Mete was wearing a black uniform. What

20 about the other two?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Yes, they were wearing a black uniform; or yes, they were wearing

23 a uniform?

24 A. I didn't quite focus my attention on them.

25 Q. Do you remember whether they were uniformed?

Page 4858

1 A. No, no. I think they were not.

2 Q. Were they armed, that's any of the three?

3 A. Arms, yes.

4 Q. Whereabouts was Mete when you went into the building? You

5 described a corridor and a room. Where was Mete?

6 A. In the corridor.

7 Q. Was it a corridor that came directly from the door as you came in

8 or was it somewhere else? I mean, did you walk directly into a corridor?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did Mete say to you -- just stop for a moment. I'm sorry.

11 Was there any furniture in that corridor that you can remember?

12 A. I can't remember.

13 Q. What did Mete say to you?

14 A. As soon as I entered, he told me, You are the son of the spy.

15 Q. How did he say that to you, in what -- in what tone of voice?

16 A. Not very loud.

17 Q. What was your response when he said, You are the son of a spy?

18 A. I said, That's not true.

19 Q. What else did he say to you?

20 A. Nothing else.

21 Q. Did you ask him anything about the allegation or the statement

22 that you were the son of a spy?

23 A. No, I didn't ask.

24 Q. What happened then?

25 A. Nothing happened. I asked to leave, and I was told that, Your

Page 4859

1 father has been taken to here with a police jeep.

2 Q. Who said that?

3 A. Mete said that.

4 Q. Who were the people with him?

5 A. I don't know them.

6 Q. Now, you've mentioned going to Musa Draga's office before. Do

7 you remember whether Musa Draga --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- was there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You said Mete said: "Your father has been taken to here with a

12 police jeep." What did you understand him to mean by that?

13 A. I understood that he had been taken as a spy.

14 Q. Why did you understand that?

15 A. Because this is what he told me.

16 Q. What sort of police jeep did you understand Mete to be referring

17 to?

18 A. A Serb police jeep.

19 Q. Why did you understand him to be referring to a Serb police jeep?

20 A. Because we didn't have our own police at that time.

21 Q. Where was your father when you were having this conversation with

22 Mete and the two others were there?

23 A. In the room, in the room.

24 Q. Which room are you referring to?

25 A. In Mete's office.

Page 4860

1 Q. You described a corridor. Where was this room in relation to

2 where you were standing -- where you were and where Mete was?

3 A. There was one room and one corridor. The corridor was like an

4 entrance to Mete's office, which was the first room on the left.

5 Q. On the left as you came in through the door or as you were going

6 out?

7 A. The room was on the left side, yes.

8 Q. As you were entering the building or as you were leaving the

9 building?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Which one? As you came in, was it on the left; or if you were

12 going out, was it on the left?

13 A. As you went in the corridor, it was on the left.

14 Q. Did that door -- did that room have a door on it?

15 A. Yes, it did.

16 Q. Was it open or closed?

17 A. It was closed.

18 Q. How do you know your father was in that room?

19 A. Because I heard his screams.

20 Q. Describe to the Trial Chamber what you heard.

21 A. He was only screaming.

22 Q. How loudly?

23 A. Not very loud.

24 Q. How did you know it was your father?

25 A. Because I -- when I entered, Mete told me that, You are the spy's

Page 4861

1 son, so this is how I thought that it was my father.

2 Q. Did you recognise the screams as his?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. From the noise you heard coming from that room, was there

5 anything to indicate whether or not there were any other people in that

6 room with your father? What I'm saying to you: Did it sound like he was

7 alone in there or were there other people there?

8 A. I thought he was alone.

9 Q. What gave you the impression that he was alone?

10 A. Because I heard only one voice, from the voice I could surmise

11 that.

12 Q. Did you hear any other noises coming from that room, apart from

13 the screaming you've just described?

14 A. [No interpretation].

15 Q. I didn't get an answer then.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you just say yes or no to the answer -- to the question I

18 asked you?

19 A. [No interpretation].

20 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said no.

21 MR. RE: Thanks.

22 Q. How long did that go on for, the screaming?

23 A. As long as I remained there. After I left, I don't know whether

24 he continued screaming.

25 Q. Approximately how long were you in that corridor for?

Page 4862

1 A. Not for very long, seven or eight minutes, I would say.

2 Q. How did you come to leave the corridor?

3 A. I didn't leave. They came and fetched me.

4 Q. Who is they?

5 A. Musa Draga and Ibra.

6 Q. Ibra, did you say?

7 A. Ibra.

8 Q. Who is Ibra? What's his family --

9 A. A colleague of mine who was there.

10 Q. And what did Musa Draga and Ibra do when they came to fetch you?

11 A. Just, they took me away and we went to the barracks.

12 Q. How did they take you away? What did they do?

13 A. They told Mete that, We have come to take this guy. Mete said to

14 them that, He's the spy's son. And then I said, This is not true.

15 Q. Did they touch you at all?

16 A. No, just took me by the hand and we went together.

17 Q. When you said that, you just touched your right arm with your

18 left hand. Can you just show us that again?

19 A. Yes, they touched me by the arm and then we left.

20 Q. What do you mean "touched you by the arm"? Did they take you by

21 the arm or just touch you on the arm?

22 A. They took me by the arm.

23 Q. Do you mean physically?

24 A. No. We just went together.

25 Q. Is that the three of you?

Page 4863

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Where did you go to or where did they take you?

3 A. To my room.

4 Q. Are you saying back to the accommodation you had in the school?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Before then and hearing your father screaming, when was the last

7 time you had seen your father before then?

8 A. I didn't see my father at all.

9 Q. You said you joined the KLA?

10 A. Yes. He was in Peje when I went to join the KLA.

11 Q. When -- before you joined the KLA, when was the last time -- how

12 long before you joined the KLA was the last time you saw him?

13 A. Three weeks or three weeks and a half.

14 Q. Now, after you heard him screaming in the room and you said you

15 were taken back to your -- with Mete and you were taken back to your room

16 in the school, did you see your father again after hearing him scream in

17 that room?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. When was that?

20 A. On the next day, when I went out in the yard and lit a cigarette,

21 I saw him for two or three seconds coming out of Mete's office and

22 entering.

23 Q. And entering -- sorry? You saw him coming out --

24 A. I saw him going back to Mete's room, office.

25 Q. Was he with anyone else?

Page 4864

1 A. He was alone.

2 Q. And how far away from you -- how far were you from him when you

3 saw him?

4 A. 100 or 120 metres, not farther than that.

5 Q. How did you recognise it was your father?

6 A. I recognised it by his shirt and by the training suit he was

7 wearing.

8 Q. Was there anything else about him that enabled you to recognise

9 him, apart from his clothes?

10 A. No. He had that training suit, a shirt.

11 Q. Did you ever see your father again after those few seconds, the

12 day after you'd heard him screaming in the room next to Mete office?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did any other members of your family tell you about seeing him

15 after that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What -- who was it and what did they tell you?

18 A. My sister.

19 Q. Right, that's Ganimete?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did she tell you?

22 A. My sister was in Buqan, and I don't know where she saw him or

23 where she met my father, but he told her, I am leaving. These are the

24 words she told me he had said to her. I don't know more than that.

25 Q. Where did she say she had seen him?

Page 4865

1 A. I don't know, but my sister was in Buqan.

2 Q. By when -- by what I mean "see him," I mean was it in the street,

3 in a house, in a police station, by --

4 A. In the street.

5 Q. When did your sister tell you this?

6 A. After the war, when I was in Switzerland.

7 Q. What year was that?

8 A. 2001, I think.

9 Q. Do you remember -- did your sister say when it was she'd seen

10 your father?

11 A. No. She didn't mention the date. She simply said that she had

12 seen him.

13 Q. How did you come to leave the KLA in Barane?

14 A. What? Can you repeat the question, please?

15 Q. You told us a little while ago that you were in the KLA, I

16 think -- I think you said for three and a half weeks?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Why did you leave the KLA?

19 A. Because everybody left.

20 Q. Everybody left where?

21 A. I don't know. Everybody went to his respective home.

22 Q. Why?

23 A. Because they said that the Serbs are coming, so go, leave, and we

24 left.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I'm looking at the clock. Could you give an

Page 4866

1 indication as where we are at this moment in time?

2 MR. RE: Possibly five minutes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you could try to reduce that to three

4 minutes, then we stay within your time-limits that you gave yourself.

5 Please proceed. But before doing so, I have one matter I'd like to

6 clarify.

7 Mr. Gashi, you said your sister told you that she had seen your

8 father in Buqan. She told her -- this to you --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- a couple of years later?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: How -- what makes you so sure about your sister

13 having seen your father after you had seen him in the barracks, in the

14 office of Mete?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I saw him there, but my

16 sister saw him in Buqan, in the street, but I don't know where exactly.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the question is: How do you know whether

18 your sister had seen him before or after you had seen him in Mete's

19 office?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand your question.

21 I'm sorry.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Your sister tells you, I've seen our father in the

23 village of Buqan. She tells this for years later when you're in

24 Switzerland.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 4867

1 JUDGE ORIE: You personally observed your father walking into

2 Mete's office and you heard his screams. Now, how do you know for sure

3 that what your sister told you was after your father -- after you had

4 seen your father in the barracks, in the office? Is there any

5 possibility that your sister would have seen him prior to that moment?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, she didn't see him before me.

7 I was the first who saw him.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, my question is: How do you know that for

9 certain? What did your sister tell you that makes you -- yes?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because we talked together.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And your sister was not aware or was she that

12 your father had been seen by you in the office? Is --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She knew because I told her.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But when did you tell her?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told my sister, of course.

16 JUDGE ORIE: When?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I met her in Switzerland.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But how was your sister then so sure -- how

19 could she know when she saw him, you had seen him already?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

22 MR. RE:

23 Q. I was just asking you about when you left the KLA, and you said:

24 "Everyone -- everybody went back to his respective home. The Serbs were

25 coming." Was there a Serbian offensive or an attack?

Page 4868

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How do you know there was a Serbian attack then?

3 A. The colleagues there told me -- everybody left. It was not only

4 me.

5 Q. Why did you not go back to the KLA after leaving when you heard

6 there was an attack coming?

7 A. I went to Montenegro.

8 Q. Why did you not go back to the KLA?

9 A. I didn't.

10 Q. Why? Why not?

11 A. Why should I go back when Mete told me, You are the spy's son?

12 Why should I go back?

13 Q. When Mete told you, you were the spy's son, did he tell you where

14 your father had been seen in a Serbian police jeep?

15 A. No, he didn't.

16 Q. Did you know Mete from before the war?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What did he do before the war?

19 A. He had a coffee shop.

20 Q. Was that in Peje?

21 A. Yes, in Peje.

22 Q. And when he was telling you that you were the son of a Serbian

23 spy and the other two were with him, what were your feelings? How were

24 you feeling when he was talking to you?

25 A. I felt very bad, of course, because I went to join the KLA

Page 4869

1 voluntarily and to have him tell me that I am the son of a Serbian spy,

2 of course I feel very bad.

3 Q. Were you feeling any fear when he was speaking to you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Describe the fear you were feeling.

6 A. I was afraid he would beat me or do something bad to me.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

9 Witness, could you take off your earphones for a second?

10 We'll have a break. I'll ask Mr. Usher to escort you out of the

11 courtroom and we'll have a break for 20 minutes, but I want to -- yes, if

12 you escort the witness out of the courtroom.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I have one matter which I'd like to raise

15 with you. One of your last questions to the witness, you asked: "When

16 Mete told you, you were the spy's son, did he tell you where your father

17 had been seen in a Serbian police jeep?"

18 I made earlier an notation for myself on the testimony in

19 relation to the Serbian police jeep, because there you put the following

20 question: You said: "Mete said your father has been taken to here with

21 a police jeep. What do you understand this to be?"

22 And the answer was:

23 "A. I understood that he had been taken as a spy.

24 "Q. Why did you understand this?

25 "A. Because this is what he told me.

Page 4870

1 "Q. What sort of police jeep did you understand?"

2 "A. A Serb police jeep."

3 And then the witness continues to say that they had no jeeps.

4 Now, I have difficulties in grabbing what now actually happened,

5 taken to a place in a police jeep is not -- I understood that to be taken

6 by those who kept him there, whereas in your -- but perhaps that's a

7 wrong understanding. Of course, I'm not a native English speaker. And

8 later you said when he was seen in a police jeep. It makes sense to me

9 that if you see someone in a Serb police jeep, that this raises the

10 suspicion that he might be collaborating with the Serbs, but the "taken

11 to" bothers me. "Your father has been taken to here," or "was he,

12 together with the Serb police, going there being delivered?" It's just

13 unclear to me.

14 If there's any way that I misunderstood the testimony or --

15 please explain to me, but --

16 MR. RE: It should be -- of course it should be clarified. I was

17 just very mindful of the three minutes I was given.


19 MR. RE: It should be clarified, I agree.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then --

21 Mr. Emmerson.

22 MR. EMMERSON: I'm just raising again the question of timing.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll have a break of 20 minutes, and as I

24 promised during the break, I'll look at whether there's any possibility

25 of other courts perhaps need to use this courtroom. We'll explore that.

Page 4871

1 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.


3 Mr. Guy-Smith.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't know whether or not those few more

5 minutes may take care of the problem or not.


7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Because the issue may go beyond Mr. Emmerson's

8 questions.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could Mr. Emmerson give a more precise estimate at

10 this moment of what he would need if he would put all the questions?

11 MR. EMMERSON: I was aiming for 45 to 50 minutes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

13 MR. EMMERSON: I can shave some time of that, but --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So we would end up at 35, 40 minutes perhaps.

15 I'm an optimist.

16 MR. EMMERSON: That's very optimistic.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I seem to -- I seem to inevitably draw the

19 short straw. I'll try to get done that which I can in that period of

20 time, I'll try.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It's not entirely clear your answer --

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Once again, I don't want to waste time during the

23 break. It really depends on what questions --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So it's -- Mr. Harvey.

25 MR. HARVEY: No straw at all.

Page 4872

1 JUDGE ORIE: No straw at all.

2 Yes.

3 MR. EMMERSON: As a general estimate, unless anybody disagrees,

4 if what Your Honour is asking how long we ought to be thinking of asking

5 for --

6 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, I'm aiming for asking

7 for another half-hour after --

8 MR. EMMERSON: That was going to be my suggestion.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Whether it's possible or not has yet to be seen, but

10 that's what I'm aiming at. We'll have a break until quarter past 1.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.56 p.m.

12 --- Upon commencing at 1.15 p.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm glad to announce that everyone is making great

14 efforts to support us. It's now quarter past 1.00. We are allowed to go

15 on until quarter past 2.00, but not one minute longer.

16 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, Mr. Guy-Smith's been kind enough to

18 indicate that he thinks cross-examination will, in his case, be short or

19 non-existent.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

21 Q. Mr. Gashi, I'm going to ask you some questions now on behalf of

22 Ramush Haradinaj, and I want to start, if I may, by just clarifying

23 certain dates with you. You made a statement to the Prosecution in this

24 case on the 4th of August, 2006, in which you were interviewed by an

25 investigator called Shahzada Sultan. Do you remember that interview with

Page 4873

1 the Prosecution investigator?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. At paragraph 9 of that statement, you said that as far as you

4 could remember, the date on which you joined the KLA at Barane was a week

5 or more before the oath-taking ceremony. And in paragraph 11 of the same

6 statement, you said that it was about one and a half weeks before the

7 oath-taking ceremony. I think in your testimony you said a week or two

8 before the oath-taking ceremony.

9 Now, we've seen from the videotape that the oath-taking ceremony

10 took place on the 20th of July. So does it follow from that, Mr. Gashi,

11 that the date on which you went to the Barane HQ was sometime between the

12 6th and the 13th of July?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gashi, could you answer the question right once

16 you've heard it.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


19 Q. In paragraph 18 of that same witness statement to the

20 Prosecution, you said that the incident, in which your father was

21 detained and you heard him screaming, took place a week or so after the

22 oath-taking ceremony in Barane. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So that takes us to something in the area of the 27th of July.

25 Would you agree?

Page 4874

1 A. I agree.

2 Q. Now, you've described seeing your father the following day

3 walking in the area outside the school building in Barane and walking --

4 walking towards, is it, or away from the office of Mete Krasniqi?

5 A. Walking towards the office of Mete Krasniqi.

6 Q. You said he was alone at the time. Is that correct? Pardon?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Are you sure it was your father that you saw?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. As far as you could see, was he in any form of custody at that

11 time?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. I want, if I may, just to ask you, during the weeks that followed

14 was your sister living in Buqan?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you visit her in Buqan?

17 A. Once.

18 Q. And did you visit her to take some washing and wash some clothes?

19 A. Yes, but I was there only once to have my clothes washed and to

20 take a bath.

21 Q. Do you know that your sister Ganimete has made a witness

22 statement for the Prosecution in this case in October and November of

23 2006? Did you know that?

24 A. No, I don't.

25 MR. EMMERSON: Can I please call-up and mark for identification

Page 4875

1 Defence 1D410052?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D91,

4 marked for identification.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

6 MR. EMMERSON: Now, Your Honour, the original of this statement

7 is in French because it was taken in Switzerland. We do not have an

8 Albanian translation; we do have an English translation. And so --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Is the French original uploaded in the system?

10 MR. EMMERSON: The French original is uploaded in the system.

11 Q. And, Mr. Gashi, I'm therefore going to read to you some

12 paragraphs from your sister's witness statement and ask you to comment on

13 them. Your sister describes an incident in which she herself was

14 interviewed about the allegation that your father was a spy. Did you

15 know that your sister had been interviewed as well?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. At paragraph 14 of her witness statement, she describes what took

18 place after that interview. And having been told that your father had

19 been detained as a spy and having been interviewed herself, she says at

20 paragraph 14:

21 "I must have stayed in Buqan for a week, perhaps more. My

22 neighbour's son was also a KLA member, and he was in the same barracks as

23 my brother. When my brother found out I was there, he came twice to see

24 me to give me his laundry to wash. According to what my brother told me,

25 my father was still in the barracks, working in the kitchen."

Page 4876

1 And she goes on:

2 "At any rate, he did not tell me more. I must say that in the

3 house in Buqan, we never had a moment where just the two of us could

4 speak in private."

5 Now, do you remember telling your sister that your father was

6 still in the barracks working in the kitchen?

7 A. No, I don't.

8 Q. Is it possible that you did tell her that but you can no longer

9 remember it?

10 A. I don't know. I don't know.

11 Q. So do I take it that it is possible, therefore, that you did tell

12 her that?

13 A. Maybe I did.

14 Q. Can you help us, do you remember having seen your father in the

15 barracks from time -- you do? -- from time to time washing kitchen

16 utensils in the yard. Do you remember seeing that?

17 A. No, no, I didn't see him doing what you are putting to me.

18 Q. In the witness statement that you made for the Prosecution in

19 August 2006 - and I'm looking now at, bear with me just a moment,

20 paragraph 20 - you said this, and I'm quoting:

21 "After I saw my father for the last time entering Mete's office,

22 my sister saw him twice in the street in the village of Buqan."

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. "She saw him maybe after about two weeks."

25 And then you explain something about how his appearance changed

Page 4877

1 in between those two occasions. You say:

2 "When I say him, he had a small beard; while when she saw him, he

3 had a long beard."

4 A. This is true.

5 Q. Is that how you became clear in your mind that she had seen him

6 alive and well after he was in the barracks? Is that how you reached

7 that conclusion?

8 A. Yes, she saw him in a good condition in the street. I saw him

9 also well and alive in the barracks, but I didn't see him anymore after

10 that.

11 Q. But when you saw him in the barracks, did you see any injuries on

12 him?

13 A. No. He was 120 metres away from me. How could I see if you [as

14 interpreted] had any injuries on him or not?

15 Q. In paragraph 20 of your Prosecution witness statement, you go on

16 to say:

17 "She told me that she tried to approach him, but he did not talk

18 to her."

19 Now, I think in your evidence a little earlier on, you told us

20 that she told you that your father had said to her, I am leaving?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What did you understand that to mean, leaving where or leaving

23 what?

24 A. He told my sister that, I'm leaving. He said, I'm leaving, I'm

25 going home. That is all she told me.

Page 4878

1 Q. But did you understand him to be saying he was leaving the KLA

2 barracks in Barane?

3 A. Yes, but he was not alone. He was with four or five other

4 people. This is what my sister told me.

5 Q. So he was with four or five other people, and did he, according

6 to your sister -- according to your sister --

7 A. This is what she told me.

8 Q. And according to your sister, did he seem to be well and moving

9 freely of his own accord?

10 A. I don't know. I didn't ask her about that.

11 Q. I see. But you do agree that what she was conveying to you was

12 that your father was saying that he was leaving the KLA barracks and

13 going home. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And your statement continues at paragraph 20, Mr. Gashi:

16 "It means that Mete released my father after detaining him for

17 some time."

18 Was that your understanding of what your sister had told you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. I now want to turn to your sister's witness statement

21 again, and just to remind you this is the October/November 2006 witness

22 statement. Describing that incident, I'm just going to read to you what

23 she says.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]


Page 4879

1 Q. Paragraphs 15 to 17:

2 "After a week I wanted to return to Barane to see my brother,

3 despite my fear of the soldiers. While I was walking on the road in

4 Buqan with my neighbour, I heard someone behind me call out my nickname,

5 Ganu. I turned around and it was my father. There stood my father,

6 alone, wearing a T-shirt, shorts, and sandals. He had a rather bushy

7 beard and rather long hair. I did not see any particular marks on his

8 face or arms. I asked him what he was doing there, and he told me that

9 he had worked in the kitchen in the Barane barracks, that he had given a

10 hundred Deutschemarks to a soldier to let him escape, and that he was on

11 his way to Pec. I told him that I was on my way to see Medin in Barane.

12 He did not answer me and took off quickly towards Pec."

13 Now, pause there. Is that what she told you, in effect?

14 A. No.

15 Q. I see. She also says, paragraph 17, that at the time she saw

16 your father, there were KLA soldiers in the area who told her to turn

17 around because there were bombings. And she continues:

18 "We returned to my neighbour's house, and that evening or night

19 soldiers came through the streets shouting that we had to leave because

20 the Serbs were coming."

21 Now, pausing there for a moment, Mr. Gashi, you told us that you

22 and others left the Barane barracks because there was a Serb offensive

23 approaching the area. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you said that was after three and a half weeks. Is that

Page 4880

1 correct or have I misunderstood your evidence?

2 A. Yes, three weeks and a half.

3 Q. Three and a half weeks after what, after you joined or after you

4 last saw your father?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Which?

7 A. After I joined after -- no, after I saw my father, after I saw my

8 father.

9 Q. So you -- if we can just put it together for a moment. The

10 oath-taking ceremony was on the 20th. You say you saw your father

11 roughly a week later, and that it was two weeks after that that your

12 sister saw him. So that would be roughly three weeks after the

13 oath-taking ceremony?

14 A. Yes, three weeks. Yes.

15 Q. When your sister saw your father, was that at the same time as

16 the Serbian offensive was sweeping through the area, Mr. Gashi?

17 A. No, it was not at the same time.

18 Q. I see. Do you remember, Mr. Gashi, on the 13th of September,

19 speaking to a British police officer and an Albanian investigator who

20 were conducting investigations on behalf of the Defence for Ramush

21 Haradinaj?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And was what you said to those people the truth, Mr. Gashi? Did

24 you tell them the truth?

25 A. The truth, as far as I could recollect.

Page 4881

1 Q. They made it clear to you, didn't they, that you were under no

2 obligation to speak to them if you didn't want to?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you told them you were perfectly happy to speak to them and

5 to make a statement to them, didn't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you told them that everything in the statement that you made

8 to them was true, to the best of your knowledge and memory, didn't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you signed the statement on every page?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Before you signed it, it was read out to you in Albanian, wasn't

13 it?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. EMMERSON: Can I please call-up on the screen Defence

16 document identification 1D410025?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to tender that, Mr. Emmerson?

18 MR. EMMERSON: I do, please.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

20 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I've given you the wrong one, I do

21 apologise. It's 1D410017.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D92,

23 marked for identification.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25 MR. RE: Would it be possible for the Prosecution to get a hard

Page 4882

1 copy of this? It's extremely hard to follow eight pages on the screen.

2 JUDGE ORIE: If it's there, then --

3 MR. EMMERSON: We will have a hard copy made available over the

4 next few minutes, hopefully, if there's an unmarked version available.

5 Is there an unmarked version?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's move on. I take it that if someone

7 finds it, it will be immediately given to Mr. Re.

8 Please proceed.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. I can't see anything on the screen at

10 the moment, so -- oh, I'm sorry. My screen --

11 Q. I'm just going to go through it with you, if I may, Mr. Gashi,

12 and I'll read it to you in English. I'm not going to read every

13 paragraph. In the first paragraph, you describe who you are and describe

14 the circumstances in which you came to make this statement. In the

15 second paragraph you say this:

16 "I was interviewed by an investigator from the ICTY about a month

17 ago. He left his card with me and his name was Shahzada Sultan. I met

18 him" -- and then we need to go to the next page, please.

19 "I met him as a result of my uncle Agim Gashi, who normally

20 resides in Austria, contacting the ICTY and alleging that I was involved

21 in killing my father Kemajl Gashi."

22 And you then go on to explain how it was that you had a

23 discussion with the investigator and agreed to meet with him in Pristina.

24 You describe, at the bottom of paragraph 2, some issues about

25 your family background and your relationship with your father. And then

Page 4883

1 if we can just turn over, please, to page 3, you say:

2 "In 1998," this is at the bottom of the page, "in 1998, I joined

3 the KLA in Lugi i Berani. When I joined, I was interviewed in a normal

4 way. Recruits were always interviewed in this way and asked why they

5 wanted to join. This was routine and I was accepted for service with the

6 KLA. I didn't wear a uniform which wasn't" -- and then, please, over the

7 page -- "which wasn't unusual at that time, some people did and some

8 didn't."

9 You then go on to describe the weapons with which you were

10 issued, and you say that the overall commander for the region that Barane

11 was in was Tahir Zemaj. And you say:

12 "I never saw or heard of Ramush Haradinaj being in our area, and

13 at that time I did not know of him."

14 In the following paragraph, you describe your sister and you

15 describe your father and say that both of them joined the KLA; your

16 father joining at Barane. You say that he came under suspicion of

17 association with the Serb MUP, and you say that he was interviewed and so

18 were you and so was your sister Ganimete by a KLA officer called

19 Mete Vranoci and another officer that you knew by the nickname of Ibra.

20 You then go on to describe Vranoci as a violent man who you knew

21 did not have a spotless character -- a spotless reputation, sorry.

22 You go on then in the remainder of that paragraph, if you could

23 just go over the following page to page 4, to describe -- to describe --

24 sorry, page 5, I'm sorry -- to describe the incident that you've told us

25 about. You make some comments about your sister being threatened by

Page 4884

1 Vranoci, and then you pick up what happened after that. And this is in

2 the second main paragraph. Can we focus in on that, please --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --

4 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, still too fast.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


7 Q. You say this, Mr. Gashi:

8 "My father was allowed to remain with the KLA but he was not

9 issued with a weapon of any kind. There were two parts to the HQ. One

10 was the military part to which I was attached and the other part was the

11 KLA police part. My father worked in this part so that we did not meet

12 or talk to each other. Because my father was allowed to remain in the

13 KLA although not issued with a weapon, I thought that the KLA senior

14 officers must not be certain that he was a Serb collaborator, although

15 perhaps they still had some suspicions about him. I sometimes saw him

16 working in the garden, washing equipment from the kitchen."

17 And then if we can just turn over to page 6, please, the final

18 passage I need to read to you is on the first -- no, I'm sorry, this is

19 the last passage, but it's the first paragraph of this page, page 6.

20 Thank you.

21 You then say:

22 "In the summer of 1998, there was a large Serb offensive in the

23 area of Barane and everybody left. I left and went first to Rosujaj,

24 where I left my rifle with a friend. I then made my way back to Peje.

25 My sister Ganimete arrived back home in Peje the next day. The last time

Page 4885

1 I saw my father Kemajl alive was about one week before the Serb

2 offensive. This was in Buqan where he was marching with other KLA

3 soldiers. I noticed he was wearing a black or dark blue short-sleeved

4 T-shirt and dark coloured trousers. He said to me, 'I am going home.'

5 At that time he had a beard which was of medium length. He had not had

6 this when he joined the KLA. Because my father had now been allowed to

7 leave the KLA HQ, I thought he was now more trusted by the senior

8 officers. I have not seen my father since that day."

9 Now, Mr. Gashi, those extracts I've just read from your statement

10 which you signed represent your best recollection, do they, at the time

11 when you were interviewed by the Defence investigators of the truth of

12 the position?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. EMMERSON: Could you just go to the bottom of the page,

15 please?

16 Q. Do you recognise your signature there on the left-hand side?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. And finally this --

19 MR. EMMERSON: Could we look back to page 2 and to the first main

20 paragraph?

21 Q. You -- at this passage, you are commenting on the statement you

22 made to the Prosecution investigator after you had just been informed

23 that your father's remains had been positively identified. And you say

24 this:

25 "I made a statement to the investigator which I signed. However,

Page 4886

1 the statement did not contain all that I know and was inaccurate in some

2 respects. This statement," that is, the current statement, "is accurate

3 and is true to the best of my memory of events that happened in 1998 and

4 1999."

5 You've signed that page also, Mr. Gashi. Was it true that you

6 left certain things out of the witness statement that you gave to the

7 Prosecution, either deliberately or by mistake?

8 A. Unintentionally.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Those are my questions.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: No questions.

11 MR. HARVEY: No questions.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps before we -- before I give an opportunity to

13 Mr. Re to further examine the witness.

14 Mr. Gashi, the statement you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor

15 is certainly not the same as the statement you gave to the investigators

16 of the Defence. When they -- the investigators of the Defence introduced

17 themselves as what they are supposed to do, as investigators from the

18 Haradinaj Defence team, did it make you in any way --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- hesitate to give a statement in full accordance

21 with the truth, knowing that they came to see you on behalf of the

22 Defence?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gashi, I take it that you understand that a

25 Prosecutor and Defence counsel are not trying to achieve the same. Do

Page 4887

1 you understand that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I'd like to ask you the following: One

4 important element in the statement you gave to the investigators of the

5 ICTY was about your father suspected of being a spy and you heard him,

6 although you didn't see him at that moment, you heard him scream?

7 MR. EMMERSON: Well, Your Honour -- is Your Honour looking for

8 page 5 at the top in the Defence statement --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm looking at what --

10 MR. EMMERSON: In the Defence statement, page 5, four lines down

11 from the bottom: "I could hear my father screaming."

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Page 5, four lines down from the bottom, I --

13 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, four lines down from the top.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That -- yes. Yes.

15 I see that that portion of your statement comes back, the

16 statement you gave to the Defence investigators as well. Can this

17 Chamber be sure that, as you stated in both statements, can the Chamber

18 be sure that this happened, that you heard your father screaming --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 MR. EMMERSON: I do apologise.


22 MR. EMMERSON: I'm simply, with the greatest respect, objecting

23 to the form of the question. Can the witness be sure --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's of course. Yes, I think linguistically

25 you're right.

Page 4888

1 The Chamber, of course, is asking you whether the Chamber can be

2 sure that you speak in accordance with the best of your recollection when

3 you say that you personally, when called into this office, heard your

4 father screaming from the office next to the place where you were, or at

5 least the room next to where you were?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, is there any need to -- I appreciate your

8 correction, Mr. Emmerson. It's right. I think in the new formulation

9 it's -- it meets your concern.

10 Mr. Re.

11 MR. RE: Well, there is, but I -- if I could just be given a

12 moment to digest this. You understand the difficulty the Prosecution is

13 placed in, receiving the statement in the middle of cross-examination. I

14 just need a moment to read it and compare it to the original statement.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that. I can inform the parties

16 that the Chamber is working hard on a ruling when Defence exhibits should

17 be ...

18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, Mr. Re, the Chamber will use the

20 opportunity to -- Mr. Gashi, you earlier told us today that you had not

21 seen your father anymore after you saw him, after the screaming event,

22 from a distance for just a few seconds heading for an office. Now, in

23 this statement you tell us that you had seen him in Buqan after that.

24 And you also just told us that this statement signed by you reflects the

25 truth. Now, which of the two is the truth? Did you see him in Buqan?

Page 4889

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The statement read to you says:

3 "The last time I saw my father, Kemajl, alive was about one week

4 before the Serb offensive. This was in Buqan, where he was marching with

5 other KLA soldiers."

6 Now, did you see him there or did you not?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Why then did you give a detailed statement to the

9 investigators of the Defence signed by you, where you say that you saw

10 him there and that he told you, I'm going home? Why did you do that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was my sister who saw him there,

12 and then it was all mixed up in my mind. That's how it appears there.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You also gave the statement at the time that:

14 "I sometimes saw him working in the garden washing equipment from

15 the kitchen." Is that the truth?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Why did you tell the investigators of the Defence

18 that you sometimes saw him working in the garden washing equipment for

19 the kitchen, if you now tell us that it is not true?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't have told them that my

21 father was a spy.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Was that the truth, that your father then was a spy?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I don't know.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, you told them:

25 "I sometimes saw him working in the garden washing equipment from

Page 4890

1 the kitchen."

2 Why did you sign such a statement, whereas you now tell us that

3 it was not the truth?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I signed it.

5 JUDGE ORIE: But you now tell us that it is not the truth.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which one is not true?

7 JUDGE ORIE: I'll read it again to you.

8 "I sometimes saw him," that is, your father, "working in the

9 garden washing equipment from the kitchen." That's what you told the

10 investigators of the Defence. My question was: Is this the truth? And

11 you just said --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not true.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Why then did you sign a statement to that extent?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I had not understood it

15 correctly when it was read to me before I signed.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Part of your statement was: "My sister Ganimete

17 also joined the KLA." That's part of the statement you signed. Is that

18 the truth?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not true.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You said: "My father, Kemajl, also later joined the

21 KLA at Barane." Is that the truth?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not true.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you just testified that everything in this

24 statement which was read out to you and which you signed was to the best

25 of your recollection in accordance with the truth. I now ask a few

Page 4891

1 questions about it, and on almost all these questions you say it isn't

2 the truth.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Did you know that ten minutes ago when Mr. Emmerson

5 read large portions of this statement, asked you whether it was the

6 truth, and then you said: "Yes."

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of what is there is true, but

8 some is not true.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Some portions I just read to you were read to you by

10 Mr. Emmerson as well, then you said it is the truth; asked by me, you say

11 it is not the truth. Could you please comment on that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to say.

13 JUDGE ORIE: If you say at one moment when portions were read to

14 you it is the truth, and if 15 minutes later you say it's not the truth,

15 would you go agree with me that one of your answers is a lie?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Are you also aware that whether the first or the

18 second answer not in accordance with the truth, where you say one of them

19 was a lie, that lying when you give a solemn declaration that you'll

20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is a very

21 serious criminal offence?

22 Mr. Guy-Smith.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, I do --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- I know, but what I think is

25 true -- the truth, I say it. But when I don't know the truth, I don't

Page 4892

1 say that. And this statement has been made a while ago. And that

2 statement was given by my sister and I didn't know about that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The other statement about your sister, that's

4 not what I'm focusing on.

5 Mr. Guy-Smith.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, if I might, Your Honour, based upon the

7 manner in which this particular question and answer is going, the

8 gentleman may at this point need the advice of counsel. And before

9 anything else -- and I do believe he needs to be cautioned, and I'm

10 rising as a Defence attorney --


12 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- indicating that based upon what I've seen thus

13 far, this man clearly needs the benefit of some legal advice to see how

14 he should appropriately answer and proceed.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand your concern, I appreciate

16 your concern, but before we move on.

17 Mr. Re, are there any -- I tried to deal with what one could

18 immediately see as an important matter arising out of cross-examination.

19 Do you have further questions for the witness?

20 MR. RE: I do --


22 MR. RE: -- but I'm certainly not going to trespass into the area

23 which Mr. Guy-Smith is --

24 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think, as a matter of fact, perhaps we leave

25 that for a moment and if you have other questions, please put them.

Page 4893

1 Nevertheless, I'm inclined to stick to the time-limits. At the same

2 time, it becomes more and more clear how important it is that the Chamber

3 decides quickly upon your request to be provided with documents to be

4 used during cross-examination. I'm just talking about how quickly we

5 have to respond to that.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

7 MR. RE: Your Honour, I can't do it within five minutes. I do

8 have to ask him some questions about this, and five minutes -- I'll go as

9 far as I can --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please start. Do the best you can.

11 MR. RE: All right. Mr. --

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour, once again.


14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do apologise, if Mr. Re at this point is going

15 to be asking any questions concerning the statement given the status of

16 the situation, this man needs --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, let's first see what questions Mr. Re

18 has.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. RE: I'm going to ask him about the circumstances of the

21 taking of the statement, nothing about his evidence.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

23 Re-examination by Mr. Re:

24 Q. Mr. Gashi, I just want to ask you about the statement which you

25 gave to the Prosecution and the statement you gave to the Defence. Okay?

Page 4894

1 First thing, when you made a statement to the Prosecution, the

2 investigator, Mr. Sultan, spoke to you, did he leave you a copy of your

3 statement with you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Have you ever seen -- when did you receive a copy of your

6 statement to the Prosecutor in Albanian?

7 A. I can't remember, to be honest, but it was after three, four

8 months.

9 Q. Was it sometime this year that you -- that someone gave you a

10 copy of the statement in Albanian?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And from that -- you didn't have a copy of that statement when

13 the Defence spoke to you last year, is that -- is that correct, that's

14 the Prosecution statement?

15 A. No, I didn't have it.

16 Q. When the Defence investigator spoke to you, who did you think

17 they were?

18 A. I don't know. I don't know.

19 Q. What did they -- where were you when they spoke to you?

20 A. I was at home.

21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: In which country?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In -- in my home in my room, in

23 Peje. That's -- you're asking me when I made the statement?

24 MR. RE:

25 Q. Yes, that's right, to the -- the second one Mr. Emmerson over

Page 4895

1 there just asked you about.

2 Now, did anyone telephone you before these people came --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did anyone telephone you or contact you before these people came

5 to your house, or did they just arrive --

6 A. Yes, they phoned me.

7 Q. Did anyone contact you before, or did they just come to your

8 house and knock on the door?

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, he just answered the question, Your Honour;

10 he said yes, they phoned me.

11 MR. RE: I only heard -- I only heard yes in my earphones.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They rang to say that they were

13 coming. I waited for them to come, and then we went to Pristina, where I

14 made a statement.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. Now, who did they say they were on the telephone when they called

17 you --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, is there any confusion -- did the

19 investigators of the Defence call you before they took the statement in

20 September 2006?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they called me.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And they took you to Pristina, or did they stay at

23 your home and interviewed you there?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we went to Pristina.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm a bit concerned about confusion about the two

Page 4896

1 interviews with a time difference of -- could I just -- could you take

2 off your earphones for one second?

3 I'm just asking the parties, they should know, was the interview

4 conducted at home or was it in an office in Pristina?

5 MR. EMMERSON: I think the position is - and I will check it --


7 MR. EMMERSON: -- but I think the position is that the

8 Prosecution interview was conducted in Pristina.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking you about your interview, Mr. Emmerson.

10 MR. EMMERSON: And the Defence interview, I believe, conducted in

11 Pec.


13 And what's your information, Mr. -- I take it it was conducted

14 in --

15 MR. RE: Pristina field office.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- Pristina field office, yes.

17 So there might be confusion about who called and who took whom to

18 where.

19 MR. EMMERSON: Can I just indicate, Your Honour, that the Defence

20 witness statement begins by -- with the witness --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've seen it.

22 MR. EMMERSON: -- and on the second page explains that the other

23 statement was taken in Pristina.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So there is a fair chance of confusion.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 4897

1 JUDGE ORIE: I earlier said that we would conclude at quarter

2 past 2.00. Of course, this is not the preferred way of concluding a

3 testimony of a witness. The Chamber will also consider and may hear

4 submissions on any need to recall the witness, but at this moment ...

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: But at this moment, the Chamber decides that the

7 witness should be excused. The Chamber reserves whatever option for

8 recalling the witness at a later stage.

9 MR. RE: Your Honours --


11 MR. RE: -- can the witness not be sent home? I don't need long,

12 I'm talking maybe -- maybe 15, 20 minutes to finish with him.

13 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I have very strict final arrangements with

14 everyone who granted us this additional half an hour --

15 MR. RE: I'm not talking about today, I'm talking about coming

16 back on Tuesday. I haven't finished with the witness. The Prosecution

17 needs -- it's the only witness we have in relation to this count. We --

18 because of what's been put, and we didn't have this before we came to

19 court today, because of this I need a little bit longer to examine him.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re --

21 MR. RE: I'm just asking that he be not sent back home --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re --

23 MR. RE: -- I'm not asking for any more time today.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- first of all, the Chamber doesn't send witnesses,

25 but we'll consider your request. We'll give notice this afternoon to VWS

Page 4898

1 whether the Chamber would like to continue to hear the testimony of the

2 witness next Tuesday or whether the Chamber, if it wants to hear any

3 further evidence from this witness, whether it would be on the basis of

4 him being recalled at a later stage. We'll inform you about that.

5 We adjourn, but let me first address you, Mr. Gashi. For the

6 time being, this concludes your testimony. At the same time -- oh yes,

7 I'm sorry.

8 For the time being, this concludes your testimony. At the same

9 time, you -- I take it that you well understand that at least in the

10 latter part of your testimony, there was at least quite some confusion.

11 Therefore, you'll hear this afternoon from the Victims and Witnesses

12 Section whether we'd like to see you back next Tuesday or whether you are

13 allowed to go home at this moment. If you are not allowed -- if you are

14 allowed to go home over this weekend, that does not mean that for sure

15 the Chamber would not or the parties would not call you again to appear

16 again before this Tribunal.

17 So you'll hear this afternoon two options: Either you have to

18 wait until Tuesday and then you'll be further examined, or you are

19 allowed to go home. If you are allowed to go home, that does not mean

20 that under no circumstances you would have to appear later. We'll then

21 decide whether you will be recalled, yes or no. You'll hear that from

22 the Victims and Witnesses Section.

23 We --

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: And at the same time, I would like to instruct you

Page 4899

1 that since there's still a chance that you'll have to continue your

2 examination -- your testimony, that you should not speak with anyone, not

3 with Prosecution, not with Defence, not with others as well about the

4 testimony you have given and perhaps still you are about to give.

5 We stand adjourned until Tuesday, the 29th of May, quarter past

6 2.00, Courtroom I.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day of

9 May, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.