1 Friday, 1 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The curtains can be pulled up again.
10 Mr. Di Fazio, yesterday we finished almost all of the session was
11 in private session, although we finished in open session. We resume in
12 open session. Would you please keep in mind that if there's any risk of
13 identifying the witness that you should ask for private session.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. I'm grateful to you for
15 that --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: -- for that reminder, and I'll do my level best --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: -- and I'll try not to stray into anything that
20 even might give away his identity.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 Then, Witness 6, I would like to remind you that you are still
23 bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your
24 testimony, that was a declaration that you would speak the truth, the
25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And apart from that, I would like
1 to ask you whether you were able to find your orientation on the hard copy
2 map given to you yesterday.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Di Fazio, you may proceed.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
6 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/6 [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]
9 Q. Have you marked the map you were provided with?
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness was not instructed to mark, so if
11 he did -- have you marked the map?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think best would be to have it on the ELMO.
14 And it should not be shown right away to the public. Let us look first at
15 what we see on the map. Yes, perhaps we -- perhaps we go into the -- at
16 least what's now on the ELMO should not be shown to the public.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours, I appreciate that it's difficult to
18 find the right orientation on the ELMO, but it appears that the markings
19 at the bottom are not all currently in view.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I --
21 MR. EMMERSON: They are now.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Q. And thank you, Witness, for marking those maps. Can we deal with
1 this as easily and swiftly as we can. Firstly, did you circle the village
2 in which you live and from which you commenced your journey?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. I see circled another village which appears to be on
5 the main road. I can't read it very clearly on the ELMO, but I think
6 that's Vranic; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Did you travel from your village via Vranic as you set
9 out on this journey to visit the relatives?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Having reached Vranic, did you -- tell us which way
12 you continued.
13 A. I continued in the direction of Kline.
14 Q. And was that on the main road that runs between Djakovica and
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you assist in --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- moving the map a bit in a northerly direction.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you. I'm grateful to Your Honours.
20 Thank you.
21 Q. You have circled, it appears --
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for one
24 Q. You've circled a village that appears to be called Rakovina.
25 Is -- am I correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you pass through that village or close to that village on the
3 main road as you travelled towards your relatives' house?
4 A. It is on the main road, the village.
5 Q. Thank you. After going through Rakovina did you continue along
6 the main road?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Did you mark on this map the location at which you
9 were stopped by the Serbian military check-point?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Could you mark -- indicate perhaps with the marking
12 stick the location where you were stopped by the Serbian military post.
13 A. The place is called Dolov.
14 Q. Thank you. And have you indicated that with a circle and some
15 handwriting of yours?
16 A. We were stopped at the entrance to Dolov village. The Yugoslav
17 Army stopped me there.
18 Q. Thank you. And you have circled that on this map, is that
19 correct, do I understand you correctly?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, having been stopped by the Serbian military
22 check-point at this village or entrance to the village called Dolov --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I have not found it yet, but if you --
24 MR. DI FAZIO: On the map, Your Honours?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: It's called Dolovo in -- on this map which I assume
2 is probably a -- a B/C/S version --
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And the witness, did he not say --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's how it is written on the
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And this is --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I found it, I found it, thank you.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Where you were stopped by Yugoslav Army, yeah,
9 that's the expression --
10 MR. DI FAZIO: That's how I understood his evidence --
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: -- if Your Honours please.
13 Q. Thank you. And you've indicated that to us on the map as well.
14 Could you indicate to us which route you then took having been stopped by
15 the Serbian military.
16 A. I turned back in the direction of Gjakove.
17 Q. And as I understood your evidence from yesterday, it was on that
18 return trip that you were stopped by the KLA soldiers; do I understand you
20 A. Yes. When I turned back in the direction of Gjakove.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd just like to ask you to tell the
22 Trial Chamber of the route that you took right up until the time that you
23 were stopped by the KLA men. Now, you've told us that you got to Dolovo.
24 From Dolovo having been stopped, which route did you take and which
25 villages did you pass through, if any?
1 A. From Dolovo, I set off in the direction of Gjakove on the main
3 Q. Yes. Thank you. And tell us, did you continue along the road and
4 which --
5 A. [No interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you. Was it along that main road that you were stopped or
8 A. They stopped me on the main road.
9 Q. And have you indicated on this particular map where you were
10 stopped along the main road?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Can you show the Judges, please, where you were
13 stopped by the KLA soldiers along the main road. Can you indicate that
14 using your marker.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And is that a marking running at right angles across the road that
17 you have placed on the map to indicate where the KLA soldiers stopped you?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. And what's the name of that particular location, you mentioned it
20 yesterday, I believe.
21 A. It is called Ujvara or Guri i Zi.
22 Q. Yes. Thank you for that.
23 MR. EMMERSON: Since neither of those two locations appears as
24 place names on the map, might the record show that the horizontal line
25 that the witness has indicated is slightly to the north of a line running
1 laterally through Boricic --
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
3 MR. EMMERSON: -- and on the main road.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you -- I intend -- yes, thank you. I intend
5 to tender that map, if Your Honours please, but I ask that it remain on
6 the ELMO for the time being as I may have to return to it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P331,
10 marked for identification.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it remains on the ELMO, the ELMO should not
12 be shown to the outside world.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. I don't know if
15 that means, therefore, it should be taken off the ELMO now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if there's nothing else on the ELMO, I do not
17 expect the --
18 MR. DI FAZIO: I can't see from here --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- technicians. No, but if nothing replaces this, I
20 do not expect the technicians to give the picture of the ELMO to the
21 outside world if there's nothing on it. This one should at least not be
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
24 Q. Now, I'd like you to turn your mind now to events at Guri i Zi --
25 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Harvey.
2 MR. HARVEY: I apologise for interrupting. If this document is
3 going to be taken off the ELMO, I don't know whether that means that's the
4 end of it as far as the Prosecution is concerned, or whether
5 Mr. Di Fazio --
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Di Fazio indicated that he would like to
7 leave it on the ELMO because he might still use it --
8 MR. HARVEY: I note there appear to be a number of other markings;
9 I have no idea what they represent and Mr. Di Fazio may be in the same
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I am in the same situation. I think I know what
12 they indicate and I will eventually get to that point.
13 MR. HARVEY: Thank you then.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: But I will also seek further clarification for
15 those extra markings.
16 Q. But in the meantime, Witness, I would like you to turn your mind
17 to the point at which you were stopped at this location, Guri i Zi. You
18 said in evidence thus far that you were stopped by KLA soldiers. Can you
19 tell us how many approximately?
20 A. Approximately ten soldiers.
21 Q. And can you recall what they were wearing and whether they were
23 A. They were all armed, and they were wearing, some of them were
24 wearing camouflage uniforms and some others were wearing civilian clothes.
25 Q. Did any of them have any insignia on the uniforms or on their
1 clothes, any patches of any sort?
2 A. No, not there.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you know any of them?
4 A. No.
5 Q. What were you asked to do?
6 A. They stopped me there. The road was not that good, so I was
7 driving slowly, 10 kilometres per hour, so they took advantage of that
8 moment to stop me and kidnap me. They checked my documents, searched me.
9 Q. Thank you. Did you remain with your car and with your family?
10 A. Yes, for about two hours.
11 Q. You said that they searched you. Did they search any members of
12 your family or your vehicle?
13 A. They searched me and the car.
14 Q. Did they find anything?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And what was that?
17 A. I had a pistol; I had an authorisation to carry it.
18 Q. And did they locate the pistol?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what happened to the pistol? Did they leave it with you or
21 was it seized?
22 A. No. They seized the pistol and all the documents I had with me.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, you said you had to wait for two hours. Did you
24 wait on the road?
25 A. We came by Drini River because it was only 200 metres away, and we
1 stood there with my wife and children by the Drini River for two hours.
2 Q. Was your car moved from the road, your -- the car that you were
3 driving, was that left on the road or was that moved as well?
4 A. I stayed inside the car with my family for two hours.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you speak to any of the KLA soldiers during that
6 period of two hours; and if you did, can you please tell us what you spoke
8 A. I asked them to release us, but they didn't. My wife recognised
9 one of them because he was from the same part where she was coming from.
10 But they didn't release us anyway.
11 Q. Thank you. Did they provide you with any sort of reason as to why
12 you had been stopped or why you were being detained?
13 A. No, nothing.
14 Q. Thank you. You said though that you waited for two hours. What
15 happened after the two hours had elapsed?
16 A. After two hours of waiting, I heard a car coming from the main
17 road. They fired some shots. I don't know if they fired it directly into
18 the car or in the air. They brought the car close to the location where I
19 was. One of the soldiers asked me, "Do you recognise this car?" I said,
20 "No". The car had Gjakove licence plates.
21 Q. Firstly I'd like to ask you some questions about the car. What
22 type was it?
23 A. It was Opel Kadett make, German make. It was a light blue colour.
24 Q. Did you make any note of the registration number? By that I mean
25 the number plate.
1 A. No, except for the DJ, the first two letters.
2 Q. Thank you. And now I want to ask you about any occupant of the
3 car. Did you see anyone who was inside the car?
4 A. No. The soldier brought the car near my car.
5 Q. Thank you. And did you at any time see any person that you
6 thought was the occupant or had been the occupant of the car?
7 A. No, I didn't know him. Because I had never seen that person with
8 that car.
9 Q. Thank you. Just tell the Trial Chamber the events as they
10 unfolded. You heard the shots fired, you've told us. You saw the Opel
11 Kadett with the -- light blue Opel Kadett with the registration plate DJ,
12 or part of it, DJ. And it was brought to where you were or close to where
13 you were. From that point, how did events unfold?
14 A. 20 minutes later after they had brought that car there, we set out
15 in the direction of Jabllanice. My wife and I got on that Kadett together
16 with a soldier, while four of our children got on my Mercedes. So we set
17 off in the direction of some villages that I will mention later. It was a
18 mountain path.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, when you got into the Opel Kadett, did you see
20 anything or take notice of anything?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What did you see?
23 A. There was an album with photographs. I looked at those
24 photographs and I recognised the policeman who had worked in Gjakove; he
25 was on those photographs with his family. I knew who he was.
1 Q. Did you know the name or part of the name of this policeman?
2 A. Only a part of his name. I knew him as Nenad. I don't know if it
3 was his first name or last name; I only knew him as Nenad. I knew where
4 he was from. He was from Kline municipality, Binxh village. He worked as
5 a policeman in Gjakove.
6 Q. And what ethnicity was he?
7 A. I don't know where he was a Serb or Montenegrin.
8 Q. Okay. Now, up until this point, up until this point, the point
9 which you got into the car and saw the album, the photo album, and saw
10 this man's photographs, had you actually laid eyes on him up until that
11 point or had you not seen him?
12 A. I had seen him before, when he worked.
13 Q. I understood that, but what I'm asking about is at the -- on this
14 day. Up until the point when you got into the car and you saw the photo
15 album, had you actually laid eyes on the driver of the Kadett, the Opel
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, you started to tell us of the drive that you then
19 embarked on from the point at which you were stopped. You've told us that
20 you were in the Kadett with your wife and one of your children and the
21 other kids were in the other car, your own car. I want you to tell us --
22 I want you to tell us which route you took and where you ended up.
23 A. We got on the main road in the direction of Gjakove. There is a
24 place called Mrasor, it's on the map, and there, there is a bridge. We
25 entered the village of Kralan. We spent a few minutes in the car there,
1 at that location. From Kralan, we proceeded in the direction of Bishtrica
2 e Decanit and then to Kpuz.
3 Q. Have you indicated these places on the map that you took home with
4 you last night?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we place the map on the ELMO, and if necessary,
8 Your Honours, I'd like the ELMO not to -- if Your Honour -- I don't think
9 this will have any effect of --
10 JUDGE ORIE: If we limit ourselves to the portion of the ELMO not
11 marked, not the southern part. I'd prefer to have it not on the --
12 MR. EMMERSON: I think -- I think that may not achieve the
13 objective that Your Honour has in mind, given the testimony that I
14 anticipate --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then what is now on the ELMO should not be
16 shown to the public.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you. All right. Okay.
18 Q. Now, if you would, please, indicate with the marker pen the
19 villages that you passed through on your -- on your trip in the
20 Opel Kadett.
21 A. Yes, Opel Kadett. Here is Mrasor.
22 Q. Yes. And from there ...?
23 A. We passed the bridge over Drini River and arrived in Kralan.
24 Q. Thank you. And did you pass through Kralan or did anything in
25 particular happen there?
1 A. I didn't understand you, sorry.
2 Q. Okay. Did you -- did your vehicle, the Opel Kadett, simply drive
3 through the village and continue on its way or did you stop and do
4 anything there?
5 A. No, we passed through that village. We continued.
6 Q. Thank you. Keep going in your narrative and tell us the route
7 that you took and the villages, just as you have been doing.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Could we move the map down a little so that --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is where Kralan is --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a little bit further up now. Yes. Thank you,
11 we have Kralan visible now.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: I think, as Mr. Emmerson suggested, a little
13 further down might be helpful.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So Kralan is here.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you --
16 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. Just so we can all see what's on the
17 map it needs to come down the screen where all of the markings trace the
18 route of the journey. So if Kralan can come down the screen a little bit
19 further and then some more, I think we then have the image.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Overall view.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
22 Q. And please, Witness, continue as you have been describing this
24 A. So here is Kralan. You can see my arrow here we crossed Bishtrica
25 e Decanit and up here is Kpuz.
1 Q. Thank you. Did you pass through Kpuz and continue on your way?
11 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 MR. DI FAZIO:
3 Q. And continue your narrative as before. I'd like to know if you
4 just drove through Gllogjan or whether you stopped there.
18 A. The direction of our movement with the soldiers.
19 Q. Thank you. And now if Your Honours please.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
21 MR. HARVEY: Sorry to rise, but I think we're going to need a
22 redaction at 16, line 7, the village that is named there.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I've been thinking about it. I'll consider it with
24 my colleagues.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 MR. EMMERSON: Can I -- sorry, may I make one observation. I
2 think because we went into private session --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I understand what the reason is, yes --
4 MR. EMMERSON: I don't think --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Although the evidence elicited in private session
6 was -- contained some more details.
7 MR. EMMERSON: I don't think there's any need for redaction in
8 respect of the part in open session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll instruct Madam Registrar to the extent.
10 Rather too much than ...
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours, and if Your Honours please
13 that -- I believe that the map has now been given ...
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I believe the map has now been given an
17 exhibit number. I have no further need to use it with this witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Since you intend to tender it --
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I did. I thought it had been given a number --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you tender it and then I ask if there's
21 any objections.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: I formally tender it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No objections?
24 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, might I actually see the original
25 because it's a little hard to make out on the ELMO and I'd just like to
1 have a look before --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Absolutely, no problem, and may I see it myself, if
4 Your Honours please.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, since Mr. Harvey asked first, to give
6 the original of the map.
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that we with can continue while looking at
9 these maps of like on -- looking at this map. Yes.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Yes we can. Just give me a -- if
11 Your Honours would be so kind as to bear with me for a moment. Yeah.
12 Thank you. Thank you very much.
13 Q. Just before we get on to events in Jablanica, you've told us of
14 this trip in detail and that you were in the Opel Kadett. As far as
15 you're aware, was your car, your own vehicle, travelling with you, as you
16 made this trip to Jablanica?
17 A. It was following the Opel.
18 Q. Do you -- were you aware of any other cars or was it, as far as
19 you're aware, a two-car convoy?
20 A. There were only two cars. I did not see any other cars.
21 Q. And did you ever see any other persons other than KLA soldiers
22 and/or your own family members in either of those two cars or is that all
23 that -- were they the only people who were in the cars?
24 A. Only these two people.
25 Q. I take it when you say, "only these two people," you mean only
1 these two groups of people, the KLA soldiers and/or -- and your family
3 A. Yes, two cars, two people from the KLA.
4 Q. Thank you. I understand you. Now, you said that you arrived at
5 Jablanica. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what -- where you were taken
6 once you arrived in Jablanica.
7 A. They took me to a room close to the entrance to the courtyard. I
8 can show you later.
9 Q. First of all, do your best, if you can, to try and describe the
10 building that you were taken to and where this place was in Jablanica, as
11 best you can and from what your memory tells you.
12 A. In the beginning when they took me in through the gate, I was not
13 left there for long. Then they took me to a house with red bricks. It
14 had four rooms and it was in the middle of the courtyard.
15 Q. Single-storey? Double-storey?
16 A. Yes, one.
17 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show you something on the television
18 screen that you can see there.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: And I'd like to have produced to the witness,
20 please, what I believe is 65 ter 1103.
21 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting, Mr. Harvey, you wanted to see the map
22 first before you expressed whether you had any objections against --
23 MR. HARVEY: [Microphone not activated]
24 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, then no objections against. P331 is
25 admitted under seal.
1 Witness 6, it takes a while until it appears on the screen, but it
2 will be there soon.
3 MR. DI FAZIO:
4 Q. Please look at that image; can you see it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It's obviously in a ruined condition now, but -- well, firstly, do
7 you recognise that building?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What is that place?
10 A. This is where I stayed for six weeks as a prisoner.
11 Q. Moments ago in your testimony, you said that you were taken to a
12 building and you were taken through a courtyard and into a building which
13 had four rooms. Is that the same building that you were talking about?
14 A. Yes. This is the one with the four rooms, the one that I see on
15 the screen.
16 Q. And when you were there, was it in this condition or was it better
18 A. It was in better shape that time.
19 Q. Thank you. And if you look in the photograph you will obviously
20 see a gentleman kneeling down looking into what appear to be two holes.
21 Do you know what is underneath the house and what the gentleman might be
22 looking at?
23 A. There's a basement there. There's water in there.
24 Q. Did you ever see that basement in your time at Jablanica?
25 A. Two weeks before I was released, when I had a little bit more
1 freedom, I could see it.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, I tender that
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P332,
8 marked for identification.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, I take it from the three times nodding
10 no. P332 is admitted into evidence.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I -- yes. Thank you.
12 I want to show the witness a second photograph. This one does not
13 have ...
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me so I may
16 consult with my case manager.
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. DI FAZIO: While that's being done, I can move on briefly.
19 Q. You said that you were there for six weeks. How long did you
20 actually stay in that place that you've just indicated to us?
21 A. Six weeks, all the time, maybe two days less than six weeks.
22 Q. And can you recall the date when you left Jablanica?
23 A. It was the 25th.
24 Q. Of which month, please?
25 A. July, the seventh month, July.
1 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to return now to your arrival, your first
2 arrival, at this particular location. You've told us about the house now,
3 and we're talking about the day when you first arrived and when you were
4 first brought there. You said that you were taken in, into the house, and
5 I want you now to tell the Trial Chamber what happened to you once you
6 were taken into the house.
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I asked first to see another
9 photograph of the first room where I was taken to, and there's the place
10 where I was beaten by the soldiers.
11 MR. DI FAZIO:
12 Q. We'll show you some -- do I understand, Witness, that you were
13 saying that in the photograph that was shown to you, you can see the room
14 where you were first beaten; do I understand you correctly?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'm sorry, I should have -- I didn't realise that.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness please be shown --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not this photograph that you showed
19 me just now, the other one.
20 MR. DI FAZIO:
21 Q. I'll show you another photograph in a while. Don't worry about
22 that. But in the meantime, let's just come back now to the events that
23 occurred to you. You said that you were beaten. Can you tell the Trial
24 Chamber what happened to you and how it started and how it developed.
25 A. I was beaten until they were exhausted. The soldiers beat me up
1 one after the other, sometimes with a baseball bat and sometimes with
2 other things, whatever they could lay their hands on.
3 Q. Okay. Well, let's get to some more detail about this, please.
4 Firstly, you say "the soldiers"; what soldiers were they?
5 A. The KLA soldiers that pretended they were fighting.
6 Q. Were these soldiers who had brought you in the car, in the
7 Opel Kadett and your own car, or were they other soldiers who were already
8 there, or you don't know?
9 A. Others.
10 Q. Did you know them?
11 A. One of them is here.
12 Q. Yes. I'll ask you about that perhaps later, but at this time I
13 want you to focus -- I want you to focus now on the first day that you
14 were there. At this time did you know any of the soldiers who were
15 beating you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You said you stayed there for a period of six weeks. Did you come
18 to know any of the soldiers who were in Jablanica?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you learn their names?
21 A. The names of the people who tortured me are written down.
22 Q. They may be written down, but I want to hear them from you. I
23 want to hear them from your own mouth, please, if you know of any.
24 A. Yes. Lahi Brahimaj, with his brother Nazmi, his cousin Hamza,
25 these were the initiators of my beatings.
1 Q. Thank you. Firstly, Lahi Brahimaj, did he have a nickname?
2 A. Yes, Maxhupi.
3 Q. And Nazmi Brahimaj, did he have a nickname or did you just know
4 him as Nazmi?
5 A. No, he didn't. He did not have a nickname.
6 Q. And what about the man Hamza, did he have a nickname?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know what Hamza's surname or family name was?
9 A. I knew his name, but I learned his surname much later, it's
10 Brahimaj, because I wanted to know. I knew all three of them by
11 appearance because they were close to me all the time, non-stop, when they
12 beat me and tortured me.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you've given us the names of some of the
14 people who you say tortured you, but now turn your mind back again. I
15 must ask you to turn your mind back again to this first beating that
16 you've started to describe, the one that happened to you when you first
17 arrived in Jablanica on that day. And what I'd like you to tell the Trial
18 Chamber is this: Can you tell us if any of those individuals whom you
19 have named participated in beating you that first day that you arrived in
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Which of them participated in beating you on that first day?
23 A. Nazmi.
24 Q. Thank you. How long did the beating last?
25 A. I don't know how long it lasted because I lost consciousness
1 during the beating; I can't tell you.
2 Q. Were instruments used?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What --
5 A. A baseball bat. I was punched. Anything they could use they did
6 against me.
7 Q. They used their feet?
8 A. Yes. I was beaten on my legs, arms, I have fractures on my body,
9 I had bruises on my back.
10 Q. Now, remember, we're focusing -- we're focusing on the first day,
11 remember that, when you first arrived. During that occasion, were you
12 ever offered -- were you ever told in any way at all as far as you could
13 ascertain why this was happening to you, what the reason was for this?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Thank you. You've mentioned the man whom you saw photographs of
16 in the Opel Kadett, a man you knew as Nenad. Did you ever see him?
17 A. We were in the same room together that night, both of us were
18 beaten. We were tied up with a rope. We were, both of us, tied up for 24
19 hours, until the next day in the morning.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you actually see, yourself, with your own eyes
21 Nenad being beaten?
22 A. Yes, both of us.
23 Q. You've given the Trial Chamber an idea of the type of beating that
24 you suffered. Did Nenad also suffer that sort of beating, same force,
25 instruments, kicking?
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. And do you know who participated in the beating of Nenad?
3 A. Nazmi, with a group of soldiers that they came. The soldiers were
4 not always the same ones. They took turns.
5 Q. How long did Nenad stay there in Jablanica?
6 A. Until the next day in the afternoon. He stayed there for 24
8 Q. And how did he depart his room in Jablanica? How did he go? How
9 did he leave it?
10 A. I don't know. Two soldiers came and took him with them, and I
11 don't know what happened.
12 Q. What sort of condition was he in when the two soldiers came and
13 took him? Can you tell us if he was -- let me be more specific with you.
14 Can you tell the Trial Chamber: A, if he was walking; if he had any
15 visible signs of blood or any other visible injuries on him?
16 A. He had everything you mentioned on him. He wasn't able to walk.
17 Both of us, actually, did have the same injuries. We were both beaten up.
18 These two soldiers took him, and I don't know what they did with him
20 Q. Did you ever see Nenad again?
21 A. No.
22 Q. During the time that they were beating Nenad, did you ever hear of
23 anything from the soldiers that shed any light on why he was being beaten,
24 why he was being attacked?
25 A. No, no.
1 Q. Thank you. And I'd just like to now return to the photographs, if
2 I may --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Di Fazio, for purely logistical
4 reasons, I would like to have a rough idea on how much time you would
5 need, and then to hear from the other parties as well, just to see whether
6 there's any chance that the next witness would be called today because --
7 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, my estimation is that there
8 is virtually no chance of the other witness being called today. I have --
9 I think you will gather, a number of other --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would say -- if you would tell me how
11 much time you would need, then we could hear from the Defence,
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I would need at least another two hours, I would
15 JUDGE ORIE: Another two hours.
16 Then I take it for granted that there's no chance that the next
17 witness would be called today.
18 MR. HARVEY: None whatsoever, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, this information can be passed.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
22 Q. I'd just like to return briefly to the photographs. There's one
23 more photograph I'd like to show you, if I may. Could you --
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit -- sorry,
25 65 ter 1357, please.
1 Q. Witness, do you recognise that building and that -- in that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What is that place?
5 A. This is the gate to the yard where you see some holes here, some
6 windows, there was a room there, that's where myself and Nenad spent the
7 night. And then we moved to the other building.
8 Q. What other building?
9 A. The one you can see here, the one that you showed me earlier.
10 Q. During the six-week period that you were in Jablanica, did you
11 stay in the one building? Did you stay there at nights at least?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that building that you see in that photograph in front of you
14 the building where you stayed for six weeks?
15 A. The one with the roof which is not destroyed is the one where I
16 stayed the rest of the time, while this part here which looks like burned,
17 this is where I spent the first night with Nenad.
18 Q. Thank you. Would you be able to simply mark that photograph. The
19 usher will help you and give you a pen. If you would just mark, perhaps
20 put a circle, a circle around the window of the room, carefully put a
21 circle around the window of the room where you and Nenad were -- were
23 A. Here.
24 Q. It should --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please assist the witness in
1 marking so that he knows how to do it. Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole area here.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we get rid of the marking as it is now, and
4 then, Mr. Di Fazio, if you clearly ask the witness what exactly to mark,
5 and then Madam Usher will assist him in marking.
6 MR. DI FAZIO:
7 Q. Witness, you've told us that you were beaten when you first
8 arrived in Jablanica and that it happened in a building, along with Nenad.
9 Can you indicate the room on any structure that you see there where you
10 were beaten?
11 A. On the first night, this part here is close to the road.
12 Q. Was there a building there in existence when you arrived that is
13 not there in the photograph now?
14 A. It was covered. For 20 metres it was entirely covered.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that both parties have looked at these
16 photographs, and the picture, for someone who sees it for the first time,
17 the -- well, let's say the middle lower part could be either a wall with
18 white parts in it, or it could be two walls, three openings on the left,
19 giving a view on an internal wall which is white. If the parties could
20 agree on whether this is not just a wall, but a surface, two walls, one
21 with three openings giving view on a white internal wall, which we also
22 see in the middle where it seems that there's a larger opening, then I'd
23 like to know because then we can proceed.
24 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, having been there myself and having
25 looked at the site, I can confirm that the red brick through which you can
1 see the grey/white wall behind is, in fact, a building obviously in a very
2 badly destroyed state at this stage.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand.
4 MR. HARVEY: But that is a grey wall bordering the road that you
5 can see behind it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We are looking at a red brick wall and another wall
7 behind it?
8 MR. HARVEY: That's correct, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps a roof may have been up there earlier.
10 Mr. Di Fazio, would you agree because the picture as such --
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Is deceiving.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it needs some interpretation --
13 MR. DI FAZIO: It needs some interpretation, yes, because it's not
14 immediately clear.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. DI FAZIO:
18 Q. Well, the -- you've circled the building or the room in which you
19 were beaten with Nenad. Do I understand?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, there's another building on the right-hand side of the
22 photograph, you can see it, it's still got a roof, although that's ruined.
23 Did you spend any time in that building as well?
24 A. You mean this other building here?
25 Q. Yes. The one on the right, it's got a roof, it's still got a
1 roof --
2 A. Yes. We spent one night where the white wall is seen here. It's
3 on the side of the road, while the red bricks are on the side of the yard.
4 We spent the first night there, and then both me and Nenad were moved to
5 this other building which had four rooms. I was in the room which was on
6 the left side as you enter the building.
7 Q. And tell me this: Is that -- is that room that you've just
8 mentioned in the structure with the remains of a roof on it, was that
9 where you spent most of your time in Jablanica?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did it have a window?
12 A. Yes, on that side facing the road.
13 Q. Can you see the window in that photograph?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Thank you very much.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P332,
20 marked for identification.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that there are no objections, then this
22 marked photograph is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Is it 332, Your Honours, or 333?
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think the previous photograph was --
25 MR. DI FAZIO: 332.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- 33 -- let me -- Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, you're right. This will be Exhibit Number
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then P333 is admitted into evidence.
5 I thank you for --
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.
7 Q. I want to ask you some questions about the people whose names
8 you've mentioned. In the six weeks that you were in Jablanica, did you
9 see KLA soldiers every day or infrequently? Can you tell us how often you
10 saw them.
11 A. I was locked except for the last two weeks when I had more freedom
12 to move. During the time when I was locked, I didn't see any except for
13 those who were brought there to beat and torture me. And to tell you the
14 truth, you cannot count them, they were numerous.
15 Q. Thank you. So -- so approximately the first four weeks you were
16 literally imprisoned in a room, do I -- or at least in a house. Do I
17 understand you correctly?
18 A. Yes, correct.
19 Q. Were you guarded?
20 A. I don't know that. When the door was closed I couldn't see if
21 there was a guard or not standing on the other side.
22 Q. Were you joined at any time by any other prisoners?
23 A. For quite some time, I was all alone. After two or so weeks, they
24 brought three other persons in there.
25 Q. Well, I'm going to ask you questions about the other people who
1 joined you later, but I now want to turn back to the KLA people. You only
2 saw them when they arrived. Were you beaten always when the KLA soldiers
3 were there or did it not happen -- did it not work out that way?
4 A. No, no, I was always beaten.
5 Q. You mentioned the names of some of the KLA men you say you saw
6 there, and you've mentioned Lahi Brahimaj, Nazmi Brahimaj, and Hamza. How
7 did you find out their names?
8 A. After I was released, I wanted to find out their names. I knew
9 them by appearance.
10 Q. Did they ever introduce themselves?
11 A. No.
12 Q. I want you to focus on them as individuals now. Let's start with
13 Lahi Brahimaj. How often would you say you saw him?
14 A. Continuously. I saw him there continuously.
15 Q. Well, the Trial Chamber would like to know -- would like a bit for
16 exactitude, I think. You try and do your best. They couldn't have been
17 there constantly for four weeks, so you tell the Trial Chamber how often
18 you saw them. Once a day? Once a week? Twice a day? Three times a
19 week? Try and give us that sort of detail.
20 A. Well, two days would not pass without seeing Lahi Brahimaj there.
21 Q. You mentioned that he had a nickname, Maxhupi. How did you come
22 to discover that nickname?
23 A. He had a cousin of his who worked there as a cook, so when I
24 discussed with him -- when we had casual conversations, I asked him about
25 the other person.
1 Q. We'll get to that period of time when you were a cook later. But
2 turn your mind to the other man you call Hamza. I want to know the same
3 information there. How often did you see him in that four-week period?
4 I'm talking about the four-week period, your initial four-week period.
5 A. Almost every day, because their house was nearby the place where I
7 Q. How do you know that the house was nearby to the place where they
9 A. I asked Gani Brahimaj, the cook. I was interested to find out
10 these details.
11 Q. Thank you. And Nazmi Brahimaj, in that four-week period, how
12 often did you see him?
13 A. Nazmi was there all the time, maybe a day would pass without
14 seeing him, but he was there continuously. He moved about that place all
15 the time.
16 Q. When these three men came to your room in that four-week period,
17 how long would you be with them on each occasion? I assume it varied, but
18 can you give us an idea of a range of time, how long you were with each of
19 them. In other words, did they come for an hour or two or five minutes or
20 the whole day? Give us an idea of how long you would have had them in
22 A. You mean the prisoners or the other? Could you please explain.
23 Q. Sure. I've been asking you about Lahi Brahimaj, Nazmi Brahimaj,
24 and the man Hamza. Now, when you were a prisoner and you said they came
25 to your room, to the room in which you were kept, how long would they stay
1 in the room? Was it a short period of time? A long period of time? Did
2 it vary? Please tell the Trial Judges and give them an idea.
3 A. They would come for five minutes, ten minutes, whenever they
4 wanted and stayed as long as they wanted, but usually this long.
5 Q. And what did they do when they came to your room?
6 A. They beat me with baseball bats, with fists. For two weeks, I
7 didn't know much of myself, I didn't know where my face was, where my neck
8 was. I was all swollen up because of the beatings.
9 Q. All right. Other than baseball bats, were any other instruments
11 A. Not with me.
12 Q. Did they ever arrive - and I'm talking about the three men:
13 Lahi Brahimaj, Nazmi Brahimaj, and Hamza - did they ever arrive and not
14 beat you?
15 A. There were such occasions, but rarely this happened because they
16 would send other soldiers to beat me up. It wasn't necessary that they
17 themselves beat me up when they had others to send over.
18 Q. When other soldiers beat you up, were they present or had they
19 sent them? I want to know if they were actually in the room seeing what
20 was happening when other soldiers beat you up.
21 A. No. These three would leave the room.
22 Q. I need to know a bit more detail about this type of beating that
23 you've just described. You said that there were occasions when other
24 soldiers beat you up. You just said these three, and you're talking, I
25 understand, about Lahi Brahimaj, Nazmi Brahimaj, and Hamza. You said that
1 they would leave the room. Were they ever in the room at the same time as
2 the other soldiers who were beating you up?
3 A. Yes. Nazmi was there in the room. Sometimes Lahi would happen to
4 be there in the room. Not all the three of them came at the same time.
5 Q. Thank you. What about facilities in the room? Can you tell us if
6 you had any facilities, anything like a bed or blankets, anything -- any
7 furniture, anything at all inside the room?
8 A. During my stay there for the first three weeks, there was nothing
9 in the room, only the floor. No covering, no blankets, nothing.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm going to move on to the
12 topic of other people, and this would be a natural break.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it would be better to have a break. We'll
14 have a break for 25 minutes. We'll resume at ten minutes past 4.00, but I
15 add to that sometimes, often for good reasons, the Chamber is late. The
16 Chamber, however, also very often has to wait until whoever in this
17 courtroom is ready, whether technicians or counsel or -- the Chamber would
18 like to get started in time, and therefore urges everyone to be here at
19 ten minutes past 4.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Di Fazio, and Witness 6,
23 there are a few procedural matters I'd like to deal with without further
24 delay. So if you would forgive us for not immediately continuing your
1 Mr. Di Fazio, the Chamber was informed that the two applications
2 for subpoenas filed yesterday and today, one in relation to a witness
3 number 55 in the tentative order of testimony and the other one about
4 Witness 18, that the Office of the Prosecution would like to make an oral
5 application to change the dates to appear in the subpoenas, thus that
6 Witness number 55 in the tentative order of testimony would be subpoenaed
7 for the 20th of June and not for the 14th.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: I understood, if Your Honours please, the 21st.
9 JUDGE ORIE: 21.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have on my list for Witness 18 --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- The 21st and not the 15th --
14 MR. DI FAZIO: I had the 20th --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'd like to be sure because I'm about to ask
16 the -- first of all, is there -- usually subpoenas, unless there's a
17 specific cry for submissions, we deal with them. Could the Defence
18 perhaps please verify whether there are any problems similar to the ones
19 raised the day before yesterday.
20 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I didn't have notice of the two
21 witnesses that Your Honour was going to raise at this stage. I can't
22 imagine that there are, but I will check, if I may, and verify that there
23 are no concerns. But they're not going to be concerns about the date in
24 any event.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, I do understand that. The reason why I'm urging
1 the parties so much is that the time reserved for calling the witnesses
2 and everything that's needed, passports, visa, et cetera, might be
3 relatively short. And therefore, if we could deal with it today, if I
4 could sign decisions today, I would certainly try to --
5 MR. EMMERSON: I've been able to identify as Your Honour has been
6 speaking who it is that these subpoenas relate to, and I have no
7 observations to make.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: None to make.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
11 MR. HARVEY: Nor I, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Di Fazio, it certainly becomes important
13 because on the basis of the information provided of course by the OTP
14 itself, drafts have been made for subpoenas on the dates indicated, and I
15 am, in view of the fact that there are no objections, I'm ready to sign
16 but I'd rather not sign subpoenas with the wrong dates on it.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, what I suggest is this: This is a
18 matter that we can quickly -- we've obviously got the dates right, it's
19 just the information that I have may be that I'm applying the wrong date
20 to one of the witnesses. Can I suggest we just move on and I'll be able
21 to instantly provide the information to you perhaps at the next break.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, filing decisions usually goes until
24 One second, please.
25 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, there are a few possibilities. One is
2 that the Chamber staff made mistakes in writing down the suggested dates.
3 There's another possibility that the OTP changed its mind since then. If
4 it would be the second, we are trying to deliver decisions as quickly as
5 we can in relatively late applications for subpoenas. Of course, if the
6 mistake is at the Chamber's staff side, then it is the Chamber, not the
7 staff, but the Chamber that takes responsibility; if not, however, I'd
8 like you to verify that immediately.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I can let -- I can let the Trial Chamber know
10 within, I would say, a matter of a few minutes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll -- then I'm not going to sign at
12 this moment. The staff is ready -- if finally the dates are wrong, and if
13 for Witness 25, it should be 21st and then witness 18, it would then be
15 MR. DI FAZIO: The dates are completely correct is my information;
16 it's only which witness that the dates apply to.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but nevertheless it's important for a witness
18 who is subpoena to know which dates is his, isn't it?
19 MR. DI FAZIO: It is, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So, either it is as I said before, that's Witness 55
21 for the 20th and Witness 18 for the 21st or the other way around. I'll
22 instruct my staff to make alternative drafts changing the dates so that
23 upon your -- upon receiving the information about which date for which
24 witness, I can immediately sign one of the versions of the subpoena.
25 Having clarified this, we'll wait for your information. There is another
1 matter. I think on the 22nd of May the Trial Chamber has provisionally
2 admitted, under seal I think, at least for two out of three witnesses 92
3 bis statements, that is, for witnesses without cross-examination. Why
4 were they -- no. The issue was, as a matter of fact, that two of these
5 witnesses, we are now informed, do not require protective measures. A
6 third one, there's an application pending for protective measures.
7 The OTP was requested to inform the Trial Chamber about security
8 and safety status. You've done so, but the statements have not yet been
9 uploaded in e-court. And therefore in order to be -- numbers to be
10 assigned, you are invited to upload them, if the attestations still are
11 needed then we'd like to be informed about that as well. But at least
12 they have not been uploaded yet and I ask the attention of the Prosecution
13 for that.
14 Then -- yes. We also understand that the Office of the
15 Prosecution has now prepared clean copies of eight exhibits attached to
16 the Limaj transcript of witness Jakup Krasniqi. Numbers still should be
17 assigned to them. I say eight because there were originally nine, but
18 number 5 was the same as number 12 attached to the witness statement of
19 the same -- of the same witness. Therefore, the eight now clean copies,
20 that is, without P numbers from the Limaj case, should be assigned
21 numbers. If you could provide -- I don't know whether you've uploaded
22 them already in e-court.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe they have been done. I was informed that
24 that has occurred.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then, Madam Registrar, I take it on the basis of
1 the list you received earlier that you already assigned numbers to it in
2 the e-court system and that once you've done that the parties will be
3 informed about which these numbers are. If I remember well, there were no
4 objections to any of these documents attached to the Limaj transcript.
5 Having dealt with these matters, we can now continue.
6 Mr. Di Fazio.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. Would Your Honours just
8 give me one moment.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, if Your Honours please.
12 Q. I just want to return now to the personalities at -- that you saw
13 at Jablanica. You've mentioned the names of three individuals who beat
14 you, KLA soldiers. Did you, beyond those three names, Lahi Brahimaj,
15 Nazmi Brahimaj, and Hamza, did you come to know the names of any other KLA
16 soldiers at Jablanica during your time there?
17 A. I only heard these names in Jablanica.
18 Q. Thank you. You -- earlier in your testimony you mentioned other
19 people coming into the room, other non-KLA soldiers. Were you joined at
20 any time by other prisoners?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you recall who was the first or who joined you?
23 A. There was a Bosnian.
24 Q. And was he alone or with others?
25 A. There were three others, Montenegrins.
1 Q. Did they arrive all at once or were they brought separately?
2 A. All together.
3 Q. About how long had you been there at the time that these -- this
4 group arrived?
5 A. I had been there for about four weeks or three and a half weeks.
6 Q. Did you know or did you ascertain any details about the Bosnian,
7 first of all? Did you find out his name; if not, did you know anything
8 about him or find out anything about him?
9 A. I didn't know his name, but I could hear the soldiers saying, the
10 Bosnian, he was a Muslim, he had been working in Decani in Elektrokosova
11 company and he spoke a little Albanian with me. The other three, the
12 Montenegrins, they did not speak to me and I don't know their names.
13 Q. Thank you. Can you give us a description of the Montenegrins who
14 were with you, at least their ages if possible and, if you can recall, the
16 A. The Bosnian had light trousers, light shirt, summer shirt, dark
17 colour. The Montenegrins, one of them was older than the others and he
18 had a jacket on.
19 Q. What was the -- of the Montenegrins, was there -- could you tell
20 if one was markedly younger than the others or all that you could tell was
21 that one was older than the others?
22 A. About 35 years old or 40 years old, I mean the older one.
23 Q. And how long were the Montenegrins and the Bosnian with you?
24 A. About three days. They were in the room that I was for three
1 Q. What happened to them in the three days that they were there?
2 A. They were beaten, just like I was beaten in the beginning, and I
3 was beaten during the three days that they stayed there as well.
4 Q. Were instruments used?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What sort of instruments?
7 A. Baseball bat, and they also stabbed them with knives. Their
8 clothes were full of blood.
9 Q. It's -- give the Trial Chamber a clearer idea of this process of
10 them being stabbed with knives. I want to know exactly how that works --
11 how that happened. Were they stabbed severely? Not so severely? More
12 than once? Explain it more carefully, please, to the Trial Chamber, this
13 process of the use of the knife.
14 A. Yes, I can tell you. They were pricked with knives on -- all over
15 their bodies, about one centimetre deep, the three of them.
16 Q. And that caused bleeding, I take it?
17 A. I didn't understand you.
18 Q. They were bleeding as a result of these knife pricks?
19 A. Yes. They were bleeding, and because of the beating they also
20 spat blood. They were covered in blood.
21 Q. During the time that the Montenegrin -- that the -- the
22 Montenegrins and the Bosniak were in the room, did you see any of the
23 other personalities whose names you've mentioned, Lahi Brahimaj,
24 Nazmi Brahimaj, and Hamza?
25 A. Nazmi and Hamza were there.
1 Q. What did the room, the inside of the room in which you and these
2 men were incarcerated look like? Did it have anything on the walls?
3 A. Nothing. Just a wooden floor. The room was 4 metres by 4, not
4 bigger than that. They stayed there for three days, and I did not see
5 them after that.
6 Q. Was there blood on the walls?
7 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, that -- it's too late to object to what
8 is an obvious leading question, but it looks as if he's got the wrong
9 answer anyway.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Um --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, with respect, I don't think it is. The
13 witness has said that these men were cut and pricked all over their
14 bodies. One -- and I think he said that they were bleeding and they were
15 beaten and they were spitting blood. In those circumstances, it's hardly
16 leading, I think, to ask if there was blood on the walls. I --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there could be no leading on whether there was
18 blood. Leading was whether it was on the walls, the ceiling, or the
19 floor. I would not disallow such a question, as a matter of fact. So --
20 MR. DI FAZIO: I can rephrase it --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. DI FAZIO:
23 Q. Did you see any blood in that room, other than on --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
25 MR. HARVEY: The question has already been asked and answered,
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The answer is -- well, the -- the transcript is
3 not clear in that respect, Mr. Harvey, because the answer comes after your
4 objection in the transcript, whether that fully reflects what happened is
5 a different matter. That's the reason why I allow Mr. Di Fazio to put the
6 question again to the witness, and then hear the answer. Because your
7 objection suggests that the question had already been answered and in
8 accordance with the transcript it had not yet been. So therefore, that
9 creates some confusion.
10 MR. HARVEY: I heard, of course, the answer while I was on my feet
11 objecting, so --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that I didn't hear it.
13 Mr. Di Fazio, you may put the question to the witness again.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll try and put it in as neutral a way as I can.
15 Q. Other than on the men, did you see blood anywhere?
16 A. There was blood on the floor.
17 Q. Thank you. In the time that these men were in the room there with
18 you, did you ever hear anything that explained why they were there? Did
19 you ever get any information about that topic?
20 A. No. I didn't speak to them.
21 Q. And finally, who took them away?
22 A. It was late when they took them. It was about 10.00 p.m. when
23 they took them away, and after that I don't know what happened to them.
24 Q. Did you ever see them again?
25 A. No.
1 Q. After they had departed, did you see anyone else in your room?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did you -- tell us who -- what happened in that respect, how
4 another person came to be there.
5 A. Two weeks before I was released, as I said, I had more freedom and
6 I saw when they brought three other persons.
7 Q. Were they brought all at once or did they come at different times?
8 A. At different times.
9 Q. Can -- it's been a long time, but please do the best you can. Can
10 you try and give us a sequence of who arrived and a description of that
11 person, if you can. Who was the first to arrive? And we're now talking
12 about the period of time after the Montenegrins and the Bosnian had left.
13 Who was the first to arrive after that?
14 A. Yes. An Albanian, a Muslim, from Zahaq of Peje. They brought him
15 in the boot of the car. I saw him because I was outside, so he was in the
16 boot of the car. They beat him the same as they did me and tortured him
17 until he died.
18 Q. Can you remember the make of car that he was brought in?
19 A. Yes, I remember. It was a Mercedes 190, metallic colour, 190.
20 Q. And how long was that individual there with you?
21 A. Only two days, not even two days because he was lying there in the
22 room. They sent him to Gllogjan to -- for treatment, but he died there,
23 in Gllogjan.
24 Q. When he was in the room, you were there as well, I understand. Do
25 I understand you correctly?
1 A. No, I was released.
2 Q. Now, what do you mean "released"? Had you left Jablanica or -- is
3 that what you mean or something else?
4 A. No. I mean I could go out into the courtyard. I had -- I was
5 allowed to get out of that room. You did not understand me.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that. So this man
7 in -- was brought in the Mercedes in the boot or the trunk of the Mercedes
8 towards the latter end of the period of time that you were at Jablanica?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At that time were you still, at night, staying in the room at
11 which you had been for the previous four weeks or so?
12 A. Yes, exactly.
13 Q. And you saw this man at night at least when you were in your room?
14 A. This person that was beaten was in another room, opposite my room.
15 Q. Okay. Can you tell the Trial Chamber -- well, did you see him
16 being beaten?
17 A. Yes. Nazmi and Hamza were the ones to beat him, these two beat
19 Q. At the time that this man was there, were there any other people
20 there, apart from yourself and this man?
21 A. You mean prisoners?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Later they brought two persons.
24 Q. Can you just give us a brief description of the two persons who
25 they brought.
1 A. They brought Pal Ded Krasniqi and another one from Grabanica and
2 they put the three of them in one room with this person from Zahaq that
3 they brought in the boot of the car. So the three of them were in one
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, before you continue there I'd like to
6 put one question in order to clarify a matter.
7 Witness 6, you said about this first man, he was brought in in a
8 Mercedes 190. You said: "They beat him the same as they did me and
9 tortured him until he died." And a few lines later you said that he
10 stayed there only for two days, "Not even for two days, he was lying
11 there. They sent him to Gllogjan for treatment but he died there, in
13 Could you tell us how you got to know that he died in Gllogjan?
14 Because I understand that you were still at that time detained in
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, I was
17 imprisoned, but I had more freedom to get out of that room and into the
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you said he died in Gllogjan. You also
20 told us that you had more freedom to move, but I understood this to be
21 within the courtyard, at least within the premises of where you were
22 detained. So how would you know that he died in Gllogjan?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was told.
24 JUDGE ORIE: By whom?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was told by Gani Brahimaj. I was
1 with him there. He was a cook.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Q. All right. Now, you've told us that the -- we're dealing with
6 three characters or personalities. Can I ask what you have there,
7 Witness. You're writing something. Could I ask you what that is.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, I can't see it, but Mr. Di Fazio asked you
9 what you are writing at this moment.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see very well.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No. No. Let me -- it seems, Mr. Di Fazio, I take it
12 that you observed that the witness was writing down something.
13 And Mr. Di Fazio would like to know why and what you are writing
15 MR. DI FAZIO: [Microphone not activated]
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I can't see the letters very
17 well and I can't hear very well.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there's anything you cannot hear, you don't
19 have to read anything at this moment. But the question was --
20 Mr. Di Fazio, I have no sight on your desk. Mr. Di Fazio said that you
21 were writing down something, and Mr. Di Fazio asked you what and why you
22 were writing down something.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing, nothing.
24 MR. DI FAZIO:
25 Q. Are you just doodling, just doing little designs? I just --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honour ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: The information the Chamber received is that it's
5 just not writing, that means not words or anything, but --
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I just wanted to make sure that was all
7 and there's no reference to any other materials. That's all. And I'm
8 grateful to the Trial Chamber. Thanks.
9 Q. Let's continue, please. You said that -- you've isolated three
10 people who arrived and you said that they were there at the same time.
11 The man brought in the boot of the trunk of the car, the trunk of the
12 Mercedes, Pal Krasniqi, and the third gentleman. Did you actually see
13 them being beaten?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you speak to them?
16 A. Later on.
17 Q. Were instruments used when they were beaten?
18 A. Baseball bat. They had nothing else to use.
19 Q. And what sort of condition were these men in when you saw them?
20 A. In a very critical condition. Only one person who was from
21 Grabanica, they did not beat him, but they did beat Pal and the person
22 from Zahaq, and they were in a horrifying state. The third person was not
23 beaten; he was physically able.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, half an hour ago you told me that
25 within a couple of minutes you would inform me about the dates. I
1 explained to you what the urgency was.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, if Your Honours please, I've ascertained from
3 my colleagues that those two dates are, in fact, interchangeable so
4 whatever form the order is in, it can be signed and it can be dealt with.
5 It won't cause any considerable problems or repercussions for us.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
7 MR. DI FAZIO:
8 Q. Now, did these three men remain at Jablanica?
9 A. They continued to stay there. They tried to escape, the three of
11 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to give us details of this escape that
12 the three tried to carry out. Tell the Trial Chamber who participated,
13 whether you participated, and what you saw?
14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm -- can I simply remind Mr. Di Fazio to lay
15 the foundation; in other words, to ensure that we know whether the witness
16 is describing things that he saw or things that he heard.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: I -- yes. That's -- I take Mr. Emmerson's point.
18 That's --
19 Q. And, Witness, you probably heard that, so we'd like to know if you
20 actually saw these men escape or what you saw that leads you to say to
21 this Trial Chamber that they tried to escape. So tell us what you know
22 and how you know it.
23 A. I saw it, together with Gani Brahimaj. We were sitting in a
24 makeshift kitchen, and he said, "The prisoners are trying to escape.
25 Let's go and stop them." I didn't run to stop them, but he did. They
1 were not able to escape. The third person who was not beaten, he tried to
2 escape through the window. This was at about 1.00 a.m.
3 THE INTERPRETER: P.m., correction.
4 MR. DI FAZIO:
5 Q. Well, did you see the men leave through a window? Do I -- or was
6 it only the third person who got through the window?
7 A. No. We saw this -- the third person running through the meadows.
8 The two persons who were beaten, they were not able to escape. They
9 caught them again, they tortured them again, and they placed them again in
10 the room.
11 Q. And just tell the Trial Chamber who the third one was and who the
12 other two were who were captured and tortured again.
13 A. The person with the Mercedes from Zahaq and Pal Krasniqi was
14 caught again, while the person from Grabanica managed to escape. I don't
15 know their names. I only know Pal's name.
16 Q. Okay. And can you just tell the Trial Chamber what the physical
17 condition of the person from Grabanica was like compared to that of the
18 man from Zahaq who arrived in the Mercedes and in the boot of the Mercedes
19 and Pal Krasniqi. How did he compare to the other two?
20 A. Pal Krasniqi and the person from Zahaq were in a critical state,
21 while the person from Grabanica was not beaten, he was only kept prisoner.
22 He opened the window for the other two because they were not in a
23 situation to go through the window themselves. So he helped them go
24 through the window.
25 Q. And how do you know that? Is that something you saw or something
1 you have concluded or something you were told?
2 A. No, I saw this myself.
3 Q. Now, I want to understand your evidence correctly that the guy --
4 the man from Grabanica, his method of escape was simply to run through the
5 fields, run away from the place. Is that -- do I understand you
7 A. We didn't see him at all. He was not beaten and he managed to
8 escape, while we did see Pal and the person from Zahaq trying to escape
9 through the meadows because they couldn't walk fast.
10 Q. Thank you. I just want to ask you some more details about
11 Pal Krasniqi. Do you know what ethnic group he was -- well, let me
12 rephrase that, that's an unnecessary question. What religion was he, if
13 you know?
14 A. Could you please repeat your question.
15 Q. What religion was Pal Krasniqi, if you know?
16 A. He was a Catholic.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we just go into private session briefly, if
18 Your Honours please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 MR. DI FAZIO:
15 Q. I want to return now to the two prisoners who remained, the guy
16 from the back of the car, the trunk of the Mercedes, and Pal Krasniqi.
17 Following their escape, how much longer did they remain there, their
18 failed escape, I should say?
19 A. I left Pal there, after I was released from Jablanica, while the
20 person from Zahaq was taken the following day to Gllogjan, as I already
21 mentioned, and he has not been found to this date.
22 Q. Thank you. When you say he -- the following day he was taken to
23 Gllogjan, do you understand that that was the day after the failed escape
25 A. Yes, after the escape. He was beaten again, tortured, he and Pal
1 together, and then he was taken to Gllogjan.
2 Q. Thank you. I want you to think back and give the Trial Chamber
3 as -- an accurate a picture as you can of the torture that they suffered
4 up until -- the last that you saw -- the last that you saw of it. And
5 tell us your source of information. Did you actually see them being
6 tortured after the failed escape?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who participated in the torture of these two men after their
9 failed escape, if you can tell us?
10 A. Hamza Brahimaj beat him outside in the meadows, together with some
11 other soldiers whom I didn't know. They dragged them to the room. I
12 don't know what happened with the person from Zahaq, but Pal remained
13 there. He was beaten up very badly. He could not eat and drink anything.
14 Q. Did you see -- actually see the gentleman from Zahaq taken from
15 that building, taken away from that building or not?
16 A. No, I didn't see that.
17 Q. How did you find out? How did you ascertain that he'd been taken
18 away? Was it just the fact that he wasn't there or did you receive
19 information or what?
20 A. I spoke with Gani Brahimaj, the person who worked as a cook. A
21 week and a half before I was released, I stayed with Gani all the time.
22 Q. We're going to get to that in a moment, but what sort of condition
23 was Pal Krasniqi in when you last saw him? Tell the Trial Chamber, try
24 and give the Trial Chamber a picture of what he looked like and what he --
25 what sort of condition he was in, what his physical capabilities were with
1 as much detail as you can muster, please.
2 A. As a person is before he dies.
3 Q. Was there any blood on him?
4 A. Yes, there was blood on him. He was spitting blood. His body was
5 all blue and black because of the beating, swollen. He was lying down on
6 the floor. I would bring him some water. He was in this shape for a
7 week. Then I was released and left that place and I don't know what
8 happened to him.
9 Q. Did you ever see him again?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like you to turn your mind to the period of
12 time when you had a little more freedom.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 MR. DI FAZIO:
15 Q. You've touched upon this topic earlier in your testimony. It's --
16 I gather from what you've said today that things changed slightly towards
17 the end of your time in Jablanica. Tell the Trial Chamber exactly what
18 happened to change your conditions there.
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Well, you've told -- you told us that, as I understand your
21 evidence, that for four weeks or so you were kept in that -- in a room in
22 the house where you were first taken and that you were beaten there. Did
23 you move from that room or were you at least allowed some freedom so that
24 you could leave that room later during your stay at Jablanica?
25 A. Yes, for a week and a half before I was released I had this
1 freedom to move.
2 Q. And how did that come about?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Can you cook?
5 A. Me?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. No.
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MR. EMMERSON: I --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Emmerson.
11 MR. EMMERSON: I have a sense that the witness may be interpreting
12 the questions that he's being asked as questions asking about the reasons
13 why his circumstances changed rather than what the change of circumstances
14 was in detail. And maybe if the question's put in terms of what happened
15 to you, in what circumstances were you then existing, it may be easier for
16 the witness to give his testimony.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, I do not know how the questions are
18 translated --
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I'm not quite certain if you say, Well,
21 how did that come about, that is multi-interpretable, if it could be
22 reasons, it could be how it was done. If you could please clarify it.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. And I'm grateful to
24 Defence counsel.
25 Q. You've told us for a week and a half before you were released you
1 had some freedom to move. Tell the Trial Chamber exactly how free you
2 were and what you did.
3 A. I was free to move in the yard and in the house. I could not go
4 beyond the yard. I did not try to escape. I had the possibility, but I
5 didn't. I wanted to stay there and find out more about their character,
6 and that's why I stayed there until the very last day when I was released.
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Did the beating go on or did that stop at a
8 certain moment?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, they stopped.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: When about did the beating stopping?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the time when I was given
12 this freedom to move, that's when the torture stopped. But I left that
13 place in a terrible condition, with a broken arm. I can feel the
14 consequences even today. I'm not able to work. I cannot lift any weight
15 more than 5 kilogrammes.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
17 Q. During that last period of time when the beating stopped, can you
18 tell the Trial Chamber if there were any other prisoners at that place or
19 they'd all gone?
20 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, the witness has already given -- just
21 before he answers --
22 JUDGE ORIE: The --
23 MR. EMMERSON: The witness has already given evidence that the --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. EMMERSON: -- Albanian gentleman in the Mercedes and
1 Pal Krasniqi and the third man were all brought to the premises after he
2 was in his period of relative freedom of movement.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, that's my recollection as well.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you.
7 Q. Did you perform any jobs in that period of time after -- when you
8 were freer, do any work?
9 A. I was cleaning the plates, washing them.
10 Q. And you've mentioned someone called Gani, Gani Brahimaj. Who was
11 that gentleman and when did you first make his acquaintance?
12 A. During my stay there.
13 Q. Okay. And did you know him right from the start or did you come
14 to know him at a later point in your stay at Jablanica?
15 A. During my stay there at Jabllanice.
16 Q. Yes, I know that. I know that you met him there and you came to
17 know him at Jablanica, but you were there for a long time, six weeks, I
18 think you've said. Now, when did you first come to know Gani Brahimaj,
19 right at the beginning of your time there? Halfway through? Towards the
20 end? Please tell us.
21 A. I had already spent several weeks there when I asked him about his
22 name because he used to bring me the food.
23 Q. And did you speak to him, converse with him, during the period of
24 time when things were freer for you?
25 A. Yes, during the last two weeks.
1 Q. Did he -- what did you speak about with him?
2 A. Nothing in particular, just informal conversation. I didn't ask
3 him about names because I could hear myself the names mentioned in the
4 yard when they were addressing each other. That's how I learned them.
5 Q. During this period of time when things were -- when you had more
6 liberty, did you see Lahi Brahimaj?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see -- sorry, did you hear other people speak to him?
9 A. Yes, in the yard I could hear them.
10 Q. How was he addressed?
11 A. By his name, Lahi, but some others called him Maxhup, by his
13 Q. Now, did you find out what he was doing at Jablanica, who he was?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did he wear a uniform or not?
16 A. Yes, he had two kinds of uniforms, he changed them. He had a
17 camouflage one and a black uniform.
18 Q. Did -- what about Nazmi Brahimaj, that man that you've mentioned,
19 did you hear others speak to him; and if so, how did they address him?
20 A. They called him deputy, deputy commander.
21 Q. Did you find out -- well, let me withdraw that question.
22 You've told us that Nazmi Brahimaj was the deputy commander. In
23 your time there, were you able to ascertain who the commander was, if
24 there was one?
25 A. No.
1 Q. What about Hamza, did you hear others address him?
2 A. They called him by his real name. I didn't hear any other name.
3 Q. Now, this place that you were at, you've already described various
4 times that you saw KLA soldiers. Did you ever see civilians at this
5 location? Apart from the prisoners that you've told us about, apart from
6 those people, Pal Krasniqi and the others that you've mentioned today.
7 But apart from them, did you ever see civilians there?
8 A. There were more civilians.
9 Q. And what about soldiers, did you see KLA soldiers?
10 A. The two weeks that I had more freedom I saw soldiers coming from
11 Drenice. They were on their way to Albania to get weapons. Most of them
12 did not have uniforms. Some -- they were wearing civilian clothes and
13 some of them had only the upper part of the uniform.
14 Q. I just want to return to Lahi Brahimaj, the man some called
15 Maxhup. You said that he wore uniforms. Do you know if he was a member
16 of the KLA?
17 A. Could you ask the question again, please, I did not understand it.
18 Q. From what you saw, heard, can you tell us if Lahi Brahimaj was a
19 member of the KLA.
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Do you know what rank he held in the KLA?
22 A. No.
23 Q. I'll just return very briefly before I move on to my next main
24 topic, please, to Pal Krasniqi. Can you recall the clothing that he wore
25 in the time that you saw him?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Describe his clothing, if you can, please.
3 A. He was wearing sports clothes, a track suit, with a white stripe
4 on the side with some buttons from the upper part to the bottom.
5 Q. Are you referring to the trouser part of his clothing?
6 A. He had the same -- the upper part and the lower part were the
7 same, blue in colour. He was wearing a track suit, a -- it was sports
8 clothes that he was wearing.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I'd like the witness, please, to be shown a
10 photograph, it should be 65 ter Exhibit 791.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you want to tender the photograph,
12 Mr. --
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I expected to, yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Then, Madam Registrar, you're also invited to assign a number to
16 that, an MFI number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P334,
18 marked for identification.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: All right.
21 Q. Do you recognise anyone in that photograph?
22 A. This person on crutches is Pal Krasniqi, as far as I remember.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that
25 photograph into evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Mr. Di Fazio, may I ask you a question? If you show a witness a
3 photograph with the name of a person under it, wouldn't it have been
4 better if you want to ask the witness to identify persons on that
5 photograph to show it without the name?
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, it would have been better, if Your Honours
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I know the consequences of that. I realise that,
10 thank you -- and I apologise to the --
11 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know who wrote it under it, if the witness
12 did that ever at an earlier stage, then perhaps it might be a good idea to
13 ask him about it.
14 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. HARVEY: I think the --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether --
18 MR. HARVEY: -- the photograph does speak for itself in that
19 regard. The writing was done by the investigator Pekka Haverinen after
20 showing the photograph to this witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have seen that attached to some of the
22 statements that are photographs, but not all the documents attached to the
23 statements are accompanied by translations. So therefore -- but ...
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps I'll ask just one or two more questions
25 about --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if this is -- if there's agreement between the
2 parties -- I do not know that there is, that the name was added once the
3 witness had stated to an investigator that -- who the person was in the
4 photograph then might be --
5 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not in a position to offer agreement on the way
6 any of these photograph identifications were conducted, I'm afraid.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Nor can I.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then I leave it up to you, Mr. Di Fazio, how to
10 MR. DI FAZIO:
11 Q. You may have heard what transpired between counsel, but I'll ask
12 you this question. Have you seen this photograph before?
13 A. I was -- I visited his family.
14 Q. Is that when you saw the photograph?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Apart from the occasion when you visited his family and apart from
17 now, have you ever seen it? Has anyone else shown it to you?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The photograph should have received an MFI number
21 under seal, Mr. Di Fazio.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: And what is written under the photograph I said that
24 was the name of the person identified by this witness, but that text
25 should certainly not be shown to the public.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no, it should not. I would ask that it be
2 exhibited under seal, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'll leave that topic of the
5 photograph, if Your Honours please, and ask that it be exhibited.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It has been marked for identification. Any objection
7 against admission?
8 MR. EMMERSON: No.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Three times no. The photograph is admitted into
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. DI FAZIO:
14 Q. Now, you mention --
15 MR. DI FAZIO: And I think here we also need to go into private
16 session, if Your Honours please.
17 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
2 Q. I want to ask you now of the manner in -- how it was that you came
3 to leave Jablanica. I think you've given us a date in evidence, the 25th
4 of July, unless I'm wrong. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how it came
5 about that you left.
6 A. I did not escape. They released me. The whole village came to
7 look for me, and they were vouching for me. They were saying, This is the
8 best person we have in our village. You don't need to keep him here, and
9 I don't know after that.
10 Q. And from whom did you get that information? From whom did you get
11 the information that the whole village came and vouched for you?
12 A. My father told me after I was released.
13 Q. At the time up until you were released, did you know that your
14 fellow villagers and your -- your fellow villagers at least had sought to
15 secure your release?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Who told you that you were to -- or let me rephrase that.
18 Were you informed that you were to be released or told that you
19 would be released?
20 A. I don't know. The cook told me that my family would come to visit
21 me, and that's what happened. In the two weeks before I was released, I
22 was visited by my wife, my father, my son, my fifth son as well stayed for
23 two hours with me. And they gave them a piece of paper to say that in a
24 week he will be released. That's it.
25 Q. Up until the time that you were released, were you given any
1 reason why you were kept there?
2 A. No.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: I'd like to show the witness, please, some
4 documents. The first document I'd like to show the witness is 6 -- in
5 fact, I believe under this exhibit number, unless I'm mistaken,
6 Your Honours, there are two documents. The exhibit number or 65 ter
7 number is 778.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Any need to keep it under seal?
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, because it mentions a name.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P335,
12 marked for identification.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that documents are, in fact, two --
14 two documents form the first and second page of this exhibit, unless I'm
15 wrong. So perhaps the first page could be shown. And I think it might be
16 an idea, if Your Honours please, to go into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 5254-5257 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
3 Q. Did you -- following your release from Jablanica, did you seek
4 medical treatment?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, unnecessary to remind you that we are
7 in open session so to keep a close eye whether we have to move into
8 anything else.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm grateful to Your Honours.
10 Q. Just Tell us what sort of treatment did you seek, where did you
11 seek it?
12 A. I went to the outpatient clinic of the textile factory in Gjakove.
13 I was prescribed some medicine and I was X-rayed and I have submitted you
14 the findings of the doctor, and this visit to the doctor accord --
15 occurred four or five days after my release from Jabllanice.
16 Q. Thank you. I'm going to show you a document in a moment, but
17 before I do that can you tell the Trial Chamber if you had any injuries,
18 and in particular bone injuries I'm interested in.
19 A. Yes, my left arm was broken. But I also suffered some injuries on
20 my back because of the beatings with the baseball bat.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 About how long had you gone before you were released without being
24 A. A week and a half that they didn't beat me before I was released.
25 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show you a document, please.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: For this we need to go into private session.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 5261-5263 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 MR. DI FAZIO:
13 Q. So I just want to return to two last topics --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Di Fazio, I've got one matter perhaps to
15 think about. I looked at the original of the medical report and it seems
16 not to be a translation problem but rather a legibility problem. Well,
17 doctor's handwriting, of course, are famous for that. Now, as you know,
18 the Chamber receives copies of the -- copies of the statements, and some
19 documents were attached. I remember that I've seen some echo-graphic
20 pictures as well. I do not know what we are talking about, whether the
21 main issue here is whether the witness has sought medical treatment,
22 whereas the details as confirmed by a doctor might not be of major
23 importance. There's also a possibility that the Defence would like to
24 make an issue out of that, and then perhaps it would be better to have
25 the -- the material which would allow, if need be at a later stage, to be
1 interpreted. And what you can see on these medical pictures to have those
2 in evidence as well. I leave that to you at this moment perhaps also to
3 discuss the matter with the parties.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, from the Prosecution's
5 point of view, it's largely achieved its aim with this document. It has a
6 reference to an X-ray on his left forearm and the date as well is of
7 significance on the document. The -- shall I say, the more intimate --
8 not the more intimate, the more detailed evidence about medical condition
9 is not a matter that the Prosecution needs to pursue. Material has been
10 made available to the Defence, and if it's necessary for the Defence to
11 develop the topic, then they are in a position to do so.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Di Fazio, what the document says, I think,
13 is that the patient was referred for an X-ray of his left forearm. There
14 are a few elements in that. First of all, you would not send a patient
15 for an X-ray of his left forearm if he has no problems with that left
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's one.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But also that in order to know what was wrong with
21 his left forearm you would like to know the result and not just that he
22 was referred for that. Because further up in this document you find that
23 "There were signs of presence of" - unintelligible - "have not been
24 seen." Now, it could be that X-ray results for the left forearm that
25 nothing abnormal be seen there as well. So I do not know to what extent
1 the parties would like to explore this in full depth or not. If so, I
2 think it would be good to know that on from the beginning so that proper
3 attention could be paid to it; if not, then we know that at least the
4 witness saw a doctor and that specific attention was paid to his, among
5 other matters, his left forearm and his urinary tract.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Excuse me, if I don't immediately jump to my feet
7 to clarify but this is a matter for Mr. Harvey.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, when I'm talking about the Defence even if I'm
9 looking in your direction, Mr. Emmerson, it doesn't meant I'm -- even
10 Mr. Troop, I hardly can see him because he is sitting behind
11 Judge Hoepfel.
12 Mr. Harvey, not necessarily to be fully discussed here at this
13 moment, but I'm just drawing the attention of a matter which might be of
14 some significance in how we treat this evidential material.
15 MR. HARVEY: I appreciate you raising it and the manner in which
16 you raise it, Your Honour. Essentially, we are not in a position to
17 challenge that this witness sought medical attention shortly after the
18 date when he says he was released from the barracks in Jabllanice. The
19 results of that medical treatment we're not able to decipher, and we make
20 no admission as to whether or not he suffered any fracture or any other
21 injury because it's just not apparent on the face of the documents we
22 have. I don't know if that's helpful or not.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio -- well, at least -- the Chamber now at
24 least understands where we are.
25 Mr. Di Fazio, that means that, apart from whether the Chamber
1 would be in a position to make inferences on the basis of this material,
2 but the position of the Defence now clearly is he sought medical treatment
3 and I take it that you would also -- that one of the reasons was that
4 there was an X-ray needed of his left forearm, that's what we can read
5 or --
6 MR. HARVEY: That appears to be the case. An X-ray was taken, and
7 as Your Honour rightly says it wouldn't have been taken without a reason.
8 JUDGE ORIE: There must have been a reason. Okay. So there we
9 stand, Mr. Di Fazio. I leave it up to you --
10 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll see if I can shed some, a little bit more
11 clarity on the topic through this witness if --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: If possible.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
16 Q. Well, after you sought medical treatment through this -- through
17 this particular gentleman whose name -- whose surname you mentioned, did
18 you see any other doctors or was that the end of the line as far as
19 doctors were concerned for you?
20 A. I went to Rifat Lila, a well-known doctor, and he prescribed me
21 some medicine, too. But I don't have these documents originating from
22 Rifat Lila, a specialist.
23 Q. Fine. Thank you. Now, first of all, just tell us this: Do you
24 know what the medicine was? If you don't know, say so; if you do know,
25 tell us.
1 A. Painkillers.
2 Q. Now, you've mentioned in your own evidence that you had a problem
3 with your left forearm or your left arm, at least. Did the doctors ever
4 do anything to that arm?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Have you had any physical complaints or conditions emanating from
7 that time or starting from that time in Jablanica; and if so, please tell
8 the Trial Chamber what they are.
9 A. Yes, I do have problems. I can't do any physical work. I still
10 feel pain on my left arm, and I have an injury on the back of my left arm.
11 It has been cured without any operation. The skin is being attached in a
12 natural way.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the transcript, line 83 -- line 8, page 83,
14 "No" was the answer and then, "Have you had any physical complaints ..."
15 is the next question.
16 Please proceed, Mr. --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: On the back of my
18 right arm, line 12.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
20 Q. And why can't you do any physical work? Can you explain that to
21 the Trial Chamber? Is it because of the injuries to your arms, your right
22 arm and your left arm, or is it for some other reason?
23 A. I have pain in general, pain in my kidneys.
24 Q. After your consultations with the first doctor and the second
25 doctor, did you seek any other medical treatment or receive any other
1 medical treatment?
2 A. No, only medicine. In the beginning I was prescribed some
3 injections, but later on only painkillers.
4 Q. Thank you. You mentioned in your evidence the names of a number
5 of individuals: Lahi Brahimaj, Nazmi Brahimaj, Hamza. Did you see any of
6 those men after -- after your release from Jablanica?
7 A. Only Nazmi, I saw him a year later.
8 Q. And can you just -- I don't want you to go into this in a large
9 amount of detail, but just briefly tell the Trial Chamber the
10 circumstances under which you saw him again and what passed between you.
11 A. A year later in June, in the agricultural cooperative in Bec
12 village, the KLA had set up a headquarters there as well. Four persons
13 came to the house and I left with them. We went to the agricultural
14 cooperative in Bec, and that's where I met Nazmi.
15 Q. Did you -- did you recognise him or did you have --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did he introduce himself?
18 A. No, no, I knew him.
19 Q. Did you speak to him, refer to him as Nazmi?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. My question --
22 A. I did not refer to him with his name. Because he had called for
23 me and he had wanted me to submit some weapons, to hand over some weapons
24 to him.
25 Q. Why did he want that? Did he explain that to you?
1 A. No, only to make me weak, to disarm me.
2 Q. Is that what he said or is that what you think?
3 A. No, but that was the reason why they had summoned me. I realised
5 Q. Did you visit him again after that first day?
6 A. Yes. I went there on that day, and I asked him, "Why do you need
7 those weapons?" And he said, "You have to submit them. And why do you
8 need those arms?" And I said to him, "For the same reasons why you do."
9 He gave me a piece of paper saying that I had to report to that same place
10 again the following day at 11.00. I took the piece of paper with me, and
11 when I turned back from the Bec cooperative, I stopped at the church in
12 Doblibare. There I met representatives of the Italian KFOR. I spoke with
13 them. They had an interpreter with them. I told them what was happening.
14 I showed them the paper, and I said to them, I'm going to be in the Bec
15 headquarters tomorrow at 11.00.
16 The following day, together with my father, I went to the church
17 in Doblibare, and there I met with KFOR representatives and I was the
18 first with a car and the KFOR representatives in two army vehicles. So we
19 all together left in the direction of the Bec cooperative where the
20 headquarters was.
21 Q. And just briefly tell us what happened when you arrived.
22 A. When we arrived there, a soldier opened the gate to the yard. The
23 others went out through the window because of KFOR. One of the eldest
24 persons remained there with us.
25 Q. Who went out through the window?
1 A. The KLA. They were running away from KFOR. They didn't want to
2 fall in their hands.
3 Q. Okay. Did you see any of the KLA who went out through the window;
4 in other words, did you see any individuals you recognised? That's what I
5 want to know.
6 A. I didn't recognise them, but I did see them jumping through the
7 window and running away. Only an elderly person, Arif Shala from Cermjan
8 village, remained there, stayed there with us.
9 Q. Thank you. And did you see this chap Nazmi on this occasion?
10 A. No, not that day. Only the first day I went there. The second
11 day they left and I did not see Nazmi.
12 Q. And did you ever have to produce weapons to any other
13 representatives of the KLA subsequently or were you ever called upon to do
15 A. No. Only the people that I just told you about. I did not have a
16 weapon to hand over to them.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, you -- earlier today, I showed you two
18 photographs of the place that you were kept at, and one of the photographs
19 showed a gentleman leaning down looking into two holes underneath the
20 house. And I -- you said that they had water in them. I want to know a
21 bit more about those -- that part of the house --
22 A. Yes, there was.
23 Q. Firstly, did you ever go down there into that part of the house or
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you ever look down into that part of the building?
2 A. No, I didn't look down. I wasn't interested to see what was
3 there. There was only water. I could see only from 10 metres away from
4 the place.
5 Q. Have you any idea how deep the water was?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I've got no further
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
11 One second, please.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give you an opportunity, Mr. Harvey, to
14 cross-examine the witness, the Chamber wants more proper attention and
15 inventivity to the interpretation of such, I would say, important
16 documents that can shed some light on the reliability and the credibility
17 of the witness. I just draw your attention to the following,
18 Mr. Di Fazio. If you look at the medical report, just above the place and
19 the date, Gjakove, 30th of July, 1998, if you look at the original
20 document it took the Chamber approximately ten minutes to find that it
21 would be worthwhile to get confirmation of whether that line says ST,
22 which in medical terms usually stands for status; post, which means after;
23 and then a word that comes very close to the Latin for fracture or
24 fractures; and then a word that might -- or at least it's worthwhile to
25 ask a medical expert whether that would be a Latin name for a specific
1 bone in what is at least at the left.
2 I mean, it needs a bit more than just to -- I'm not blaming any
3 interpreter for saying that it's difficult to read and it's not the
4 interpreter's or the translator's task to decipher all this. But
5 nevertheless, the Chamber considers that such a document should be given
6 more intense attention to see or even to seek verification, either by
7 medical doctors who would far more easily recognise certain words, what it
8 says. And even of course there would be a possibility - I don't know
9 whether the doctor is still alive - to just easily seek his translation
10 of --
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I -- is Your Honour referring to one of those --
12 the word there -- what may be "sinistri."
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, left.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: That's Latin for left. In fact, the interpreter
15 speculated that that word --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Mr. Di Fazio, are we -- first of all, the
17 translator is right in not speculating on these kind of matters, but we
18 are not just translators. We are persons who try to understand the
19 material and to try to decipher it.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And --
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's not the task of a translator; that's our task.
22 And then once we have deciphered or when we have found a potential
23 meaning, we should ask ourselves whether there are any alternative
24 findings possible. And then we can draw conclusions with the assistance
25 of translators, perhaps with the assistance of those who are better able
1 to read, but if a five-minute effort of the Chamber already brings us at
2 least to some of these words. Because the word "post", I would not expect
3 a lot of objection against reading the word "post" as "post". And we all
4 know what post means. And of course that's already -- that's -- and if ST
5 means status, then that means that something is found after -- a status
6 after something happened or happened to the body.
7 So therefore, the Chamber would very much encourage you to make a
8 more serious effort to see whether this document could assist us. Of
9 course, we find -- we could call witnesses as well, but I think it's first
10 of all for the Prosecution. Also, why is the Chamber insisting on such an
11 approach? That is because we hear the testimony of the witness, and if
12 you have objective means to find -- to verify whether or not the testimony
13 is reliable and credible, then you should very much focus on those
14 objective means, in order to make whatever conclusion you think you should
15 make more solid than just on the basis of the -- of the testimony itself.
16 It's an instrument that might assist in testing the witness, and I think
17 the importance of it should be understood by the Prosecution, just as by
18 the Defence in these kind of matters.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: If --
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon, if you speak of translation, may I draw
21 your attention to the fact that this is apparently medical Latin and not
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I've heard everything that you've said this
24 afternoon about this issue and I hear what you say and I understand
25 exactly what the Trial Chamber wants. And I -- firstly, insofar as this
1 document is concerned, I'll ask that it be given top priority and it be
2 given the closest scrutiny and the best possible translation produced that
3 we can in all of the circumstances.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Secondly, I will confer with my colleagues and see
6 if there is any other evidence that we can adduce on this particular topic
7 that might shed some more light on the matter. So I would hope that that
8 would go somewhere at least to addressing the Trial Chamber's concerns.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Then, Mr. Harvey, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
11 MR. HARVEY: Yes, I am.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, you'll now be cross-examined by
13 Mr. Harvey. Mr. Harvey is Defence counsel for Mr. Brahimaj.
14 Please proceed.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:
16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness 6. I would like you --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, perhaps I point to you Mr. Harvey is
18 standing over there, and the questions -- he'll first put the questions to
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I would like, first of all, to make
22 sure that we are in public session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We are at this moment in public session, yes.
24 MR. HARVEY: Then I am going to ask for a document to be produced
25 to the witness which I think requires that we should go into private
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we go into private session.
3 MR. HARVEY: And, Madam Registrar, I'm asking for 3D010174.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 5277-5281 redacted. Private session.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of
1 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.