1 Monday, 4 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Harvey, are you ready to continue cross-examination of Witness
13 MR. HARVEY: I am, Your Honour. Good morning.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Witness 6, I want to remind you that you're
15 still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your
16 testimony; that is, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and
17 nothing but the truth.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
19 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/6 [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey: [Continued]
22 Q. Good morning, Witness 6.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. When we left off on Friday, I had asked you about a visit that you
25 made to Jagodina, and I'd like to start back there this morning.
1 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I have, with the assistance of my
2 colleagues, managed to prepare a map over the weekend. It hasn't been
3 possible to upload it into e-court yet. Your Honour, I see, has it.
4 Perhaps the witness could be shown a copy of it, and probably the best
5 thing would be if it could be placed on the ELMO. Now we have it up on
6 the screens.
7 Could it move just a fraction out, just a tiny little bit more.
8 That's it, perfect. Thank you very much.
9 Q. Now, Witness 6, do you see the map on the screen in front of you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And if you look all the way to the bottom of the map, do you see
12 Djakovica is marked there? Perhaps -- well, do you see that?
13 A. I can't see it yet.
14 Q. I don't know if Madam Usher can assist you. It's almost at the
15 very bottom, about a third -- between a third and a half from the centre.
16 There we go. Yeah. Okay. And you --
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 Q. Sorry. Get a translation of that.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the answer, please.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat what you just said, because
21 the interpreters did not hear you correctly.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did see it. I can see Gjakove on
23 the map, Djakovica.
24 MR. HARVEY:
25 Q. Thank you, sir. And do you see Beograd at the top left-hand
1 corner of the map?
2 A. Yes, I can see it.
3 Q. Now, if you take a direction to the south-west of Beograd, can you
4 find Jagodina on that map?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Harvey, please.
8 MR. HARVEY: My apologies.
9 Again, could I ask that we pull back from this picture just a
10 little so that we can see the scale that is shown at the bottom of the
11 map. A bit further. Yeah. There we are. Thank you very much.
12 Q. Now, do you see, sir, to the bottom right-hand corner there is a
13 scale of 100 kilometres?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Would you agree with me that the distance by road between
16 Djakovica and Jagodina would be something in the region of 250 kilometres?
17 A. I don't know how many.
18 Q. You drove that journey, didn't you, sir?
19 A. Yes, I did, but I didn't mark down the kilometres.
20 Q. On how many occasions have you made that journey, sir, to
22 A. Only once.
23 Q. And when you went there last year, that was to renew your driver's
24 licence, your Serbian driver's licence, and to obtain some travel
25 documents. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, I went to get some citizenship papers and to renew the
2 driver's licence.
3 Q. And was there any other purpose for which you went there, sir,
4 last year?
5 A. My brothers wanted to have their citizenship papers because they
6 work abroad and they needed for the Swiss consulate, they needed those
8 Q. You could have obtained the same papers in Pristina, could you
9 not, sir?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Why not?
12 A. Because we're not a state yet.
13 Q. You can obtain travel documents in Pristina, can't you? You can
14 obtain Schengen visas?
15 A. No. I went there to get those papers, to renew the Yugoslav
16 passports for them.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, your question about getting visas and
18 getting travel documents is rather confusing. As far as my legal
19 knowledge goes, if I want to apply for a visa, that is, entry into a
20 certain country, I have to approach the authorities of that country or
21 that area. Whereas if I -- so, for example, if I want to enter the United
22 States, I need a visa -- I don't need it anymore at this moment, but I
23 would have to go to the US consulate whereas if you want to have a new
24 passport I would go to my own authorities. So therefore to say you could
25 get travel papers, isn't it, in Pristina, you could get visa, Schengen
1 visa, that is confusing for me and it might be confusing for the witness
2 as well.
3 MR. HARVEY: I apologise for any confusion. Let me see if I can
4 resolve it.
5 Q. Do the Swiss authorities, that is, the Swiss government maintain a
6 consulate in Jagodina?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. So you weren't going to Jagodina to obtain any papers -- any visas
9 issued by the Swiss authorities, were you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. How many passports do you hold, sir?
12 A. Only one, a Yugoslav one.
13 Q. How many driving licences do you hold, sir?
14 A. Only the one from UNMIK.
15 Q. I thought you told us that you went to Jagodina to obtain a
16 driving licence there, sir?
17 A. Yes, but they did not give it to me. They said, Come back in
18 three months, and I didn't go to get it.
19 Q. And so, please tell us, what are the papers for your brothers in
20 Switzerland that you were going to collect in Jagodina?
21 A. They're Yugoslav citizenship papers, in order for their passports
22 to be renewed in Switzerland.
23 Q. And what is the office that you went to in Jagodina?
24 A. I went to the centre of SUP, of Gjakove.
25 Q. Is this the only time you've been to that office?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. HARVEY: [Microphone not activated]
3 Madam Registrar, perhaps before I move on we should mark this --
4 have this map marked for identification, if Your Honours please.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I do not mind to have it marked; at the
6 same time, it has assisted us in knowing where we approximately are. But
7 apart from that, it's a map as any other map, isn't it?
8 MR. HARVEY: I'm in Your Honours hands. I think that's probably
9 true. The record speaks for itself in terms of -- the only matter that I
10 would seek to introduce it for, since the witness has indicated that he
11 does not know the distance in kilometres between Gjakove and Jagodina --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine.
13 Madam Registrar, it would be number?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D113.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 No objections against admission?
17 I take it that you want to tender it, Mr. Harvey.
18 MR. HARVEY: Yes, I do, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then D113 is admitted into evidence.
20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.
21 Q. Now, moving on to your interview in Jagodina, you gave a sworn
22 statement to the commander of the SUP in Jagodina; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You swore in that statement to tell the truth; that's correct,
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 MR. HARVEY: And, Your Honours, I think it would probably assist
3 us to have 3D010174 on the screens, it would assist the witness to have --
4 well, it probably won't assist the witness because we don't have a
5 translation in a language that he understands, unfortunately.
6 Q. While that's being brought up, Witness 6 --
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]
8 Mr. Harvey, one question: The Chamber has been provided with
9 copies of statements, as usual. I noticed that the original we received
10 is not exactly the same as the translation we have on our screen at this
11 moment. Of course, I didn't check the whole of it, but it struck me that
12 under the date, the 11th of July, 2006, in my original I see something
13 which very much looks like IKM Jagodina, Jagodina, which does not appear
14 on the translation. Of course, I'm not in a position to check
15 translations in full, but there seems to be a -- I don't know whether you
16 have the same original. That's with a -- with a finger-mark on the
17 bottom --
18 MR. HARVEY: I have everything Your Honour has, and before we go
19 any further perhaps since this document may reveal more than ought to be
20 in the public domain --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we should --
22 MR. HARVEY: -- we should be in private session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- we should be in private session.
24 MR. HARVEY: I apologise I --
25 [Private session]
11 Page 5291 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
14 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 Q. This statement was taken in Jagodina, you've just confirmed, if
16 that's witness?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It was taken in the SUP office, the Secretariat of the Interior,
19 which purports to exercise authority over the area of Gjakove/Djakovica?
20 A. I went there to get those documents. I don't know about the other
22 Q. What is your understanding about that office in Jagodina? Do they
23 issue papers for people who live in Gjakove or Djakovica?
24 A. That's correct. Most of the people went there to get their
25 documents; I went, too.
1 Q. There's no SUP office at this time or last year in Gjakove, is
3 A. No, there isn't.
4 Q. Now, in your statement you said you came to Gjakove SUP in
5 Jagodina in order to get a driver's licence, and you said: "I would like
6 to make a statement when on," and you give the date of the 21st of June,
7 1998, "with my family," and you then go on to describe the events that
8 took place in June of 1998. Now, in this statement you've given the 21st
9 of June, you told the Tribunal here that, in fact, it was the 13th of
10 June. Can you explain that mistake?
11 A. Well, it's not too far back in time. I don't think giving the
12 wrong date is a big problem.
13 Q. Did you have any documents with you when you -- to help you recall
14 events when you were making this statement?
15 A. No.
16 Q. I'm just going to take you to a number of particular passages in
17 it. At the very last line on the page of translation that we have in
18 front of us, you said -- describing the UCK roadblock, you said: "There
19 were 20 Albanian persons in front of me, both sides in camouflage
20 uniforms, some of them had black uniforms and I know the time was exactly
21 1300 hours."
22 You recall saying that in your statement?
23 A. Maybe I said that. I'm not very sure.
24 Q. Again, you may not think it makes much difference, but you told
25 the investigators of this Tribunal back in 2002 that there were ten
1 persons, ten Albanian persons; it's now 20. Were you trying to exaggerate
2 or had you just forgotten?
3 A. I said here that there were ten, but there were more than that. I
4 gave them the minimum number.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it's perhaps not a hugely
6 important matter, but it's a matter that does require some clarification.
7 I think if the previous statement of the witness is to be put to him,
8 it's -- the correct statement should be put to him. In that November 2002
9 statement he said "approximately ten," not ten precisely.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey --
11 MR. HARVEY: I'm grateful, and that is a correct statement.
12 Q. You told the authorities in Serbia that there were 20. Do you
13 think it may have been more than 20?
14 A. I don't know. I was surrounded by KLA when I was in the car. I
15 don't know whether there were more than 20.
16 Q. How were you able to give the time as being exactly 1300 hours,
17 1.00 p.m.?
18 A. It was around that time. It's been nine years now. I cannot tell
19 you exactly, so I can say more things or less things now because it's been
20 nine years. It's not that this happened a week ago.
21 Q. Witness, I'm sure everybody understands that. What I'm trying to
22 find out is how you were able to tell the SUP authorities just a year ago
23 that the time was exactly 1300 hours.
24 A. It was around that time.
25 Q. When you gave your statement to the SUP authorities, you used the
1 name -- the full name Nenad Remistar as the traffic policeman who was
2 stopped by the KLA. Did you know his full name at that time?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Well, how come his full name is put into that statement? Was that
5 done by the SUP authorities?
6 A. They knew his last name; I didn't.
7 Q. Well, were they telling you what to put into the statement?
8 A. No, no, they simply marked down his last name. I only knew him by
9 his first name of Nenad. They wrote his last name.
10 Q. Did they tell you anything else about him, apart from his last
12 A. No.
13 Q. A little later on in your statement, after you have described
14 being kept in that room for two months, you said this: "I later found out
15 that while I was in prison two brothers were in charge. One of them was
16 called Lahi Brahimaj, nickname Maxhupi, and the other brother is called
17 Nazmi Brahimaj. They are both from Jablanica village."
18 When you said that you later found that out, what did you mean by
19 that, sir?
20 A. I was imprisoned and for four weeks I didn't know the name of
21 anyone. Only after I was released, I saw their pictures and found out.
22 Q. Where was it you saw their pictures, sir?
23 A. I saw their -- not their pictures, but their faces. They came
24 there every day.
25 Q. No. I'm going to read your last answer back to you, sir, and I'm
1 going to ask you the same question. Your answer was: "I was imprisoned
2 and for four weeks I didn't know the name of anyone. Only after I was
3 released, I saw their pictures and found out."
4 I ask you again, sir: Where was it after you were released that
5 you saw their pictures and found out their names?
6 A. For the two weeks I had more freedom, then I saw their faces and
7 heard their names, but I didn't say anything.
8 Q. On Friday in answer to Mr. Di Fazio you said this --
9 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I don't have the corrected in front of
10 me. This is at page 33 of the transcript that we had on Friday.
11 Q. "After I was released, I wanted to find out their names. I knew
12 them by appearance."
13 Again, sir, it's right, isn't it, that after you were released,
14 still up until that time you still didn't know the names of the people
15 that you have now given the names to this Tribunal?
16 A. I knew that, their names, yes, but I said -- I didn't say
17 everything I knew in my statement there.
18 Q. I'm going to suggest to you -- well, first of all, let's go back.
19 When was it that you were shown for the first time you were shown their
21 A. I wasn't shown any pictures of them; I saw them in person.
22 Q. Sir, are you trying to be truthful in your answers to this Trial
24 A. Yes, yes, I'm telling the truth.
25 Q. I'm going back to an answer you gave just a little while ago.
1 "I was imprisoned and for four weeks I didn't know the name of
2 anyone. Only after I was released, I saw their pictures and found out."
3 For the third time, sir, I ask you: When was it and where was it
4 that you were shown their pictures and found out their names?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, you now for the second time say: "You
6 were shown pictures," where the witness testified that he saw pictures;
7 that is not the same.
8 MR. HARVEY: I appreciate there may be a subtle difference there.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And especially since it comes down to details
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. HARVEY:
13 Q. You heard the Presiding Judge's point there, that you said that
14 you saw their pictures and found out their names. Where did you see their
15 pictures and how did you find out their names?
16 A. I didn't see any pictures of them. I saw their faces every day,
17 and I learned their names, hearing someone speaking of or to them by that
19 Q. Let me suggest this to you, sir: When you were released from
20 Jablanica and you were told that you were free to go, you went straight to
21 State Security headquarters in Djakovica, did you not?
22 A. What year are you talking?
23 Q. Well, what year were you released from Jablanica?
24 A. On the 25th, 1988.
25 Q. The answer was translated as 1988. You must mean 1998, sir?
1 THE INTERPRETER: That's what the witness said: "1988."
2 MR. HARVEY: I wasn't arguing with the translation; I'm asking the
4 Q. Did you mean 1998?
5 A. 1998.
6 Q. And when you left Jablanica, the first thing you did was you went
7 straight to the State Security headquarters in Djakovica, didn't you, sir?
8 A. No. I went after five days to get some papers, driving licence,
9 the ID. I went there to get a copy of them.
10 Q. Let's go back to the statement that you gave in 2006 in Jagodina.
11 In that statement you told them this. Please listen carefully: "When I
12 was released from detention, I went to report the case to the chief of
13 State Security Camovic. From Jablanica I walked. Along the way I saw
14 some Romas who were travelling with horse-drawn cart, but from Djakovica
15 until I arrived at Camovic I didn't talk to anyone about it. The Romas
16 gave me a lift from Grgoc to Crmljane, and from there I went to Djakovica
17 on foot and reported the case to Camovic."
18 I'm going to break that down in stages, sir. Do you agree with me
19 that what has been written down in Jagodina last year is that you told the
20 SUP authorities there that you left Jablanica, you walked, you got a lift
21 on a horse-drawn cart for part of the way, and then you walked again until
22 you got to Djakovica and reported the case to Camovic, all on the same
24 A. No. They have written it wrongly. I didn't say that.
25 Q. So you say that you waited for five days, is that it, before going
1 to the State Security headquarters?
2 A. First I went to the doctor. I wanted to get better, and then I
3 went to get those papers. They have written what they wanted. I didn't
4 state what you are putting to me.
5 Q. At the very end of the statement, sir, the one that you gave in
6 2006 in Jagodina, are these words: "Official Note was read over to the
7 citizen pursuant to Article 226, paragraph 5, of the ZKP, and he has no
9 When this statement was finished, did they read it over to you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you read it yourself?
12 A. No. I don't know how to read Serbian.
13 Q. Did you sign it?
14 A. Yes, I signed it.
15 Q. Did you also put your finger-print on it?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And when you signed it and put your finger-print on it, did you
18 appreciate that you were saying that the contents of the statement were
20 A. No, I didn't know what they had written there.
21 Q. And you didn't ask them to read it over to you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And when they wrote that they had read it over to you, that was a
24 lie, was it?
25 A. They know it.
1 Q. Is the -- or going back to 1998 now. Was the DB, the State
2 Security, responsible for issuing driver's licences?
3 A. Where do you mean?
4 Q. In Djakovica?
5 A. Which year?
6 Q. In 1998, the year that you had been in Jablanica.
7 A. I went there after five days to get my papers.
8 Q. Did you hear my question?
9 A. Maybe I didn't understand it.
10 Q. Let's try again. Going back to 1998 now, was the DB, the State
11 Security, responsible for issuing driver's licences in Gjakove?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That wasn't the responsibility of SUP?
14 A. They were together in the same building.
15 Q. Yes, but the chief of State Security doesn't issue driver's
16 licences or he didn't issue driver's licences in 1998, did he?
17 A. No, no. His employees were those who issued.
18 Q. Now, you told -- again back in 2006, you told the authorities in
19 Jagodina that you reported to Camovic about what had happened to you in
20 Jablanica; right?
21 A. No, they have added that.
22 Q. Well, let's understand this. You knew Camovic by his first name
23 of Streok; correct?
24 A. Sret.
25 Q. I apologise, Sret. Thank you. And you had known him for a period
1 of some 20 years back in 1998; correct?
2 A. Yes, because he was a professor in the school.
3 Q. And did you used to see him regularly during those 20 years?
4 A. Not for some time.
5 Q. In relation to July of 1998, when was the last time before that
6 that you had seen Sret?
7 A. When I came out of Jabllanice.
8 Q. And before you came out of Jablanica, when was the last time you
9 had seen him?
10 A. I don't know. It was a long time. It's a long time. I don't
11 know now.
12 Q. When you -- do you agree, let's deal with that, first of all, do
13 you agree that you did go to see him in July of 1998 after you came out of
15 A. I met him in a coffee place.
16 Q. Where was that?
17 A. In Pashtrik Hotel.
18 Q. And why did you go to meet him in the Pashtrik Hotel?
19 A. This is where I found him.
20 Q. And what did you say to him when you found him?
21 A. Nothing. He asked me, How was it in Jabllanice? I told him that
22 they took away my papers, and then he told me, Come tomorrow, bring the
23 necessary documents, and you will get a copy of new papers.
24 Q. I'm just going to read that part of that answer back to you. I
25 asked you: "What did you say to him when you found him?"
1 You answered: "Nothing. He asked me, How was it in Jabllanice?"
2 Did it appear to you, sir, that he already knew that you had been
3 in Jablanica when you came in to see him in the coffee shop in the Hotel
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, there's -- the way the
7 questions are being framed and the flow of the answers may give rise to --
8 well, I don't know what it may give rise to, but there's a possibility --
9 there's a lack of clarity concerning whether this was a chance meeting or
10 an arranged meeting. That can be clarified with a single question. I
11 rather gathered -- well, I rather won't say -- but it's not clear from --
12 MR. HARVEY: I will deal with it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems that Mr. Harvey takes your point,
14 Mr. Di Fazio.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. HARVEY:
17 Q. Before I get to that specific question, I would like an answer to
18 this question, sir: By the time you saw Mr. Camovic in the Hotel
19 Pashtrik, did it seem to you that he already knew -- from what he said to
20 you, did it appear that he already knew that you had been in Jabllanice.
21 A. Yes, he knew it.
22 Q. And did he know that because you had told somebody else in the
23 State Security already or did he know from other reasons, as far as you're
7 Q. When you met Camovic, did you -- had you gone to the Hotel
8 Pashtrik because you knew that was where you were likely to find him?
9 A. No, no. I just went there to have a coffee, and then I met him
11 Q. Well, had you gone to Djakovica that day in order to get your
12 driver's licence and other documents sorted out or had you just gone there
13 for coffee?
14 A. I went to Pashtrik to have a coffee, and I had my papers in the
15 Gjakove SUP, but this is far from Pashtrik. It's not in the same place.
16 Q. Had you already been to the Gjakove SUP by the time you went to
17 the Hotel Pashtrik?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. So you went first to the Hotel Pashtrik. Did you go there
20 expecting or hoping to see Mr. Camovic?
21 A. No, no. I just went there to have a coffee and ran into him.
22 Q. Were you on your own?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was Mr. Camovic on his own?
25 A. No, he was with some three friends of his whom I don't know.
1 Q. Did he call you over or did you go over to him?
2 A. I went over to him because I knew him.
3 Q. Did you sit down and have coffee with him?
4 A. Yes, I found them there and we had the coffee together. And then
5 I stayed there for half an hour and left, leaving them there.
6 Q. So you talked with him for half an hour about your experiences in
7 Jablanica. Is that correct?
8 A. No, I didn't talk with him for half an hour, but for some ten
9 minutes. He asked me how it was, what did you go through? And I said it
10 was a very bad time. The KLA was harsh on me. I told him that I was
11 maltreated, then they took away my car. And then he told me, Bring your
12 photos and you will have a duplicate of the papers.
13 Q. And did you go in to see him the next day?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you see him again to discuss this?
16 A. No, I didn't meet him anymore. I took the photos, handed them
17 there, and after two days they gave me the papers.
18 Q. Did you see a police officer or a state security office by the
19 name of Pavle Zuvic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where did you see him?
22 A. When I was to see the doctor, then on the way back from the doctor
23 he was a reservist policeman and I met him. And he asked me, How was it?
24 Did you see Nenad? I said, Yes. We were together for one night, tied up
25 and tortured, and then after that I didn't see him. This is all I talked
1 with him.
2 Q. And where was it that you saw Pavle Zuvic?
3 A. At the outpatient clinic in the textile factory when I just left
4 the clinic; some 200 metres away from it I met him.
5 Q. Was he on duty or was he just -- this is just a chance meeting in
6 the street?
7 A. He was in a civilian car. He was in civilian clothes.
8 Q. Have you ever been a reservist policeman?
9 A. Who?
10 Q. You.
11 A. No. I had a very large family of 40 members. I didn't have time
12 to serve as policeman. I was at home. I had to work hard to keep the
14 Q. When you were having your conversation with Sret Camovic, which
15 language were you speaking?
16 A. Albanian.
17 Q. Did he appear interested in who was responsible for your torture
18 in Jablanica?
19 A. No, he didn't ask me, even though he knew the place better than I
21 Q. How do you know that he knew the place?
22 A. Because he knew every detail.
23 Q. How did you know that?
24 A. He knew the names better than I did, the names of the persons that
25 I saw there during the imprisonment.
1 Q. So he was the person who told you their names, was he?
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Well --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no --
4 MR. DI FAZIO: -- wasn't what the witness said at all --
5 MR. HARVEY: That was my question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That was a question of Mr. Harvey. He suggested
7 something in a very leading way which --
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Well that's --
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- as far as I understand is not --
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought that Mr. Harvey
11 was concluding that from the answer that was being given. If it's a
12 suggestion, I have no problem with it.
13 MR. HARVEY: Thank you --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you can put the question again to the
15 witness, Mr. Harvey.
16 MR. HARVEY: Yes, indeed.
17 Q. And so Sret Camovic knew the names better than you did, the names
18 of the persons that you saw there during your imprisonment. That's your
19 evidence; right?
20 A. He knew the terrain because I didn't ask him names or surnames.
21 He knew everything that was going on in the Gjakove municipality. He knew
22 every house, every family. He's older than me. He knew everyone.
23 Q. That wasn't my question. He knew the names better than you did;
24 that's what you just told us, isn't it?
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon, Mr. Harvey, may I interrupt. Are we now
1 speaking of Sret Camovic?
2 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please --
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: One second.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, one second, please.
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Are we speaking of Pavle Zuvic or again of Sret
7 MR. HARVEY: I'm sorry if I've created confusion.
8 Q. I am speaking of Sret Camovic, and you said -- if I understand
9 your answer correctly, you said that Sret Camovic knew the names better
10 than you did. Isn't that what you told us, Witness?
11 A. No. I said he knew the terrain, he worked in the Gjakove
12 municipality. I am a villager myself. I did not know everybody. He knew
13 all the villages and -- in the commune or in the municipality of Gjakove
14 better than me.
15 Q. Well, Witness, we have your answers in front of you. I'm not
16 going to argue with you. It's right, isn't it, that Sret Camovic knew
17 names of people in Jablanica and he told you that he knew those names,
18 didn't he?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. Well, as head of State Security, was he -- did he ask you anything
21 at all about the people who tortured you, as you have told us, in
23 A. No, he didn't ask me.
24 Q. He wasn't interested to get information on their behaviour?
25 A. No, he didn't ask me.
1 Q. And he never asked --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, I'd like to have one matter explored a
3 bit more in detail.
4 Witness 6, about Sret Camovic knowing people, you said only one or
5 two minutes ago, and I think you were talking about him, you said: "He
6 knew the names better than I did, the names of the persons that I saw
7 there during the imprisonment."
8 What did you exactly mean when you said that? Because later your
9 answer suggests that he would not know the names of those persons. Could
10 you tell us what you meant when you gave that first answer.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was the chief and knew the region
12 of Gjakove. I did not say that he knew every name or surname. He knew
13 the terrain. He knew the families, who came from which family.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But when you spoke with him, did he appear to know
15 who the persons were that you saw during your imprisonment?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. He did not ask me about
17 them at all. Whether he knew them or didn't know them, I don't know,
18 because he did not ask me.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. You see, Witness, you have told this Tribunal about a number of
22 people who were in Jablanica with you who were being systematically
23 tortured, and you have mentioned Nenad, a police officer; you have
24 mentioned a Bosnian who worked for Elektro in Decani; you have mentioned
25 three Montenegrins; you have mentioned an Albanian Muslim who was fat, in
1 his 40s, who was delivered in the trunk of a Mercedes and who came from
2 Zahaq; you have mentioned Pal Krasniqi; you have mentioned another man, a
3 Catholic Albanian from Grabanica.
4 Now, are you saying, sir, that Sret Camovic knew everything about
5 all of those people?
6 A. No, no, he didn't ask me. And this person from Grabanica is not a
8 Q. Well, we'll come back to that. But what I'm trying to understand,
9 sir, is how you could be talking with the head of State Security and he's
10 not remotely interested in all of these people who you say were tortured
11 in Jabllanice. Now, did you tell him that you saw anybody else being
12 tortured there?
13 A. No, no. He didn't ask me about them.
14 Q. And you didn't think it was important to tell him?
15 A. It was important, but the situation was such that I did not tell
16 him anything and he did not ask me.
17 Q. And was it the same day or some other day when you went to get
18 your driving licence sorted out?
19 A. Two days later I went for the papers. I took the photos to the
20 place and I got the driving licence and the ID card.
21 Q. And did you see any officers of the State Security when you went
22 there for your driver's licence and ID card?
23 A. No, no. These were only women that were working in those offices.
24 There were no officers.
25 Q. Did you attempt to speak to anybody from State Security when you
1 went there two days later?
2 A. No.
3 Q. So, despite everything that had been done to you and everything
4 that you say had been done to all of these other people, the only thing
5 that you were interested in doing was renewing your driver's licence. Do
6 we understand you correctly, sir?
7 A. The war started and I did not have time to tell them anything.
8 Q. What do you mean, the war started and you didn't have time to tell
9 them anything?
10 A. I'm telling you now, here.
11 Q. You had time to sit and have coffee for half an hour with
12 Mr. Camovic. You had time to go back two days later to renew your
13 driver's licence. You had time to go to the doctor. You had time to talk
14 with Pavle Zuvic. What do you mean the war started and you didn't have
16 A. Because they did not ask me how you were and where you were, I did
17 not give them any answers. And then I had to give that other statement
18 that you saw later, when I went there.
19 Q. Which was --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
21 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness said that he had a conversation
23 for ten minutes with Mr. Camovic. He went there for half an hour but had
24 a conversation, ten minutes; page 21, line 9. And apart from that, I
25 wonder whether it's fully appropriate to put to the witness: You found
1 time to go and see the doctor, which is -- might be -- he might have been
2 moved by other reasons. So therefore, precision there is the first thing
3 required; and second, to say: You found time to drink coffee, you found
4 time to see the doctor suggests more or less that these are similar
5 things, which they certainly are not.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. HARVEY: Well, Your Honour, I certainly don't mean to minimise
8 or trivialise any of these matters. I'm responding, though, of course, to
9 the witness's answer that: "The war started and I did not have time to
10 tell them anything." I merely seek to point out that over a period of
11 days he was not prevented by whatever he means by the war starting; he was
12 not prevented from doing other things.
13 Q. May I, Witness, just put this to you. You have never given to the
14 Serb authorities the stories concerning other individuals who were in
15 Jablanica with you, with the exception of Nenad Remistar. Isn't that
16 correct? You've never given that information to the Serb authorities?
17 A. They asked me about him and I told them about him.
18 Q. When you say "they," who are you talking about at this point, sir?
19 A. In Jagodine, when they asked me questions.
20 Q. You also told an investigator for the Office of the Prosecutor --
21 you know Pekka Haverinen, don't you?
22 A. I can't remember. I don't know. There were many and I don't know
23 their names.
24 Q. Well, do you recall that you were interviewed on the 17th and the
25 18th of January, 2003, and let me just put this aspect of your statement
1 to you, it's very brief.
2 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I'm looking at the statement of the
3 18th of -- 17th/18th of January, on the second page of that statement on
4 the fourth unnumbered paragraph.
5 Q. You said this: "After I was released, I heard from a Serb police
6 that Nenad had been killed but his body was not dumped in the lake of
7 Radoniq as many others, but maybe somewhere up in the mountains in the
8 area surrounding Peje or Kline."
9 First of all, sir, do you remember saying that to an investigator
10 from the Office of the Prosecutor?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. [Microphone not activated]
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. HARVEY: I'm sorry.
15 Q. Who was the Serb police officer who gave you this information?
16 A. Pavle.
17 Q. And when do you say he gave you that information?
18 A. The day that I went to the doctor and I was coming out of the
19 clinic and I met him for three or four minutes [as interpreted] on the
20 street. That's what he told me on that occasion. Whether he was taken to
21 the lake or to the mountain, I mean his body, I don't know.
22 Q. Well, I'm trying to understand the statement that you gave to
23 Mr. Haverinen. The date when you went to the doctor we know from the
24 doctor's statement was the 30th of July, 1998, five days after you left
25 Jabllanice. Do you agree with that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you told Mr. Haverinen on the 18th of January, 2003, that
3 Pavle Zuvic had told you that "Nenad had been killed but his body was not
4 dumped in the lake of Radoniq as many others."
5 Do you agree that you made that statement, sir?
6 A. I may have said that, but maybe also the translators have gotten
7 it wrong. I don't know about it. There are mistakes in the translation.
8 Q. Well, we may have to ask you to look at the original of that, sir.
9 Have you -- have you reviewed your original statement in Albanian to that
10 interpreter -- to that investigator?
11 A. I didn't see it until later, when I saw it myself.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
13 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I cannot for the full hundred per cent exclude that
15 there's some confusion.
16 Witness 6, your statement given in January 2003 doesn't say that
17 you know anything about where the -- where the body of Nenad was dumped,
18 but in that statement we only find that you heard from a Serb policeman
19 that the body was not dumped at Lake Radonjic but maybe somewhere else.
20 Is that what you heard from this policeman?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is it true that you had no personal knowledge of
23 where the body was dumped?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, I don't know.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
1 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for that clarification, Your Honour.
2 Q. Witness, I'm not so much concerned with whether you know where the
3 body was dumped. I just want this to be clear, that in your conversation
4 with Pavle Zuvic on the 30th of July, 1998, he told you that Nenad's body
5 was not dumped in the lake of Radoniq, as many others. Is that your
7 A. That's what he told me and I don't know any further.
8 Q. After you went to the doctor on the 30th of July, 1998, you never
9 had any further conversation with anybody in the Serb police or in the
10 Serb State Security about your experiences in Jablanica; is that correct
11 sir? That's, of course, up until 2006.
12 A. That's correct. I had no contact with them.
13 Q. Did you ever give a statement to the International Committee of
14 the Red Cross concerning the disappearance of Nenad?
15 A. They asked me questions and I gave them answers.
16 Q. Do you recall when that was?
17 A. No, I can't recall.
18 Q. Can you recall whether it was a short time after you left
19 Jabllanice or many years later?
20 A. I did not understand you.
21 Q. When you spoke with representatives of the International Committee
22 for the Red Cross, was that, shall we say, within six months to a year or
23 many years later after you left Jabllanice?
24 A. I don't know whether it was 2002 or 2003 when I started to give my
25 statements to the internationals.
1 Q. Going back, sir, to your statement to Zoran Nikic in Jagodina, you
2 are quoted there as saying: "I have reported this case about me and
3 policeman Remistar to the ICTY investigators in Prizren in 2000 and 2001
4 in Pristina."
5 Are those dates accurate, sir, or is that a mistake?
6 A. I can't remember what year it was, but I know that it was in
7 Prizren, yes.
8 Q. And you're also reported as having told Zoran Nikic in
9 Jagodina: "I don't know any other names, apart from the two brothers I
10 have mentioned above," and that, of course, would be Lahi Brahimaj and
11 Nazmi Brahimaj, "nor have I been able to find out anything but I would
12 like to know their names. I know that one of them is in The Hague now."
13 Do you recall making that statement, that you didn't know any
14 other names apart from those two?
15 A. The question was about those two.
16 Q. You were unable to give any other names, apart from those two,
17 back in 2006. Is that right?
18 A. Only those two.
19 Q. You didn't, for instance, remember the name of Hamza Brahimaj?
20 A. No, I didn't remember it at the time.
21 Q. And you didn't remember the name of Gani Brahimaj?
22 A. I didn't remember his name either. I couldn't remember
24 Q. Now, I'd like you to assist us, if you would, please, in trying to
25 understand how many people were with you in Jabllanice at different stages
1 during the six weeks that you have told us that you were there. First of
2 all, you arrived in Jabllanice on the afternoon of the 13th of June. Is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And if you were stopped at or around 1.00 in the afternoon and you
6 were held, as you've told us, for something like two hours at the road
7 side; that would take us to around about 3.00. Is that correct?
8 A. Maybe later, 3.30, 4.00.
9 Q. And you then drove through a series of villages until your wife
10 and children were dropped off, and then you continued on to Jabllanice.
11 Was it dark by the time you got to Jabllanice or was it still light,
12 bearing in mind that this is July [sic]?
13 A. It was light.
14 Q. Are we talking approximately 6.00 in the evening or later or
16 A. It was earlier.
17 Q. And you have told this Tribunal that you and Nenad were taken to
18 the building immediately on the left inside the gate when you arrived at
19 Jabllanice. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you were kept in that building overnight. Is that correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And sometime the next day you were taken to the house?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you were put in the room on the left-hand side of the entrance
1 door to the house, at the front. Is that correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. So at this stage we have you and Nenad together in that room;
5 A. No.
6 Q. Was Nenad in a different room from you?
7 A. No. They took him away. They took me to that room and I don't
8 know where they took him to.
9 Q. I see. So you were on your own in that room and you don't know
10 where he was?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you -- sorry. Did you see him again after you were taken to
13 that room? Did you understand my question?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you see Nenad again after you were taken to that room?
16 A. [No interpretation]
17 MR. HARVEY: I heard the witness say "jo," meaning no.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 MR. HARVEY:
20 Q. And --
21 MR. EMMERSON: Just before Mr. Harvey continues, I notice the
22 time. There's one very brief matter I would like to raise with
23 Your Honours in the absence of the witness. It might take a second or
24 two, and I wonder, if that's a convenient, moment we might break at that
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, when --
2 MR. HARVEY: This is as convenient a moment as any other,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, we can't ask the witness to leave
5 the courtroom unless we have all the curtains down. That --
6 MR. EMMERSON: The quickest way of doing it would be for the
7 witness to remove his earphones.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, that would be enough.
9 Could you take off -- Witness 6, could you take off your earphones
10 for a second.
11 MR. EMMERSON: It's just a very minor point.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. EMMERSON: I just wanted to make sure that my understanding on
14 this was correct in the light of some of the questions and the answers.
15 So far as we are aware, at least, there is no direct evidence of the death
16 of Nenad Remistar in this case, and I simply thought that some of the
17 questions and answers that proceeded, or seem to be proceeding on the
18 assumption that there might be.
19 MR. HARVEY: I'm certainly happy to clarify any misapprehension
20 that there may be. I'm also --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Whether there's any direct evidence or whether there
22 will be any direct evidence, because the Chamber doesn't know, but at
23 least this witness, when he spoke, I think about the death of Nenad
24 Remistar, it was always hearsay.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, yes, well, it was -- in the light of that and
1 in the way that the questions were asked and answered that I simply wanted
2 to have the position clarified, because of course we have all seen the
3 evidence on which the Prosecution has brought the indictment, some of
4 which, of course, Your Honours haven't seen --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. EMMERSON: -- and therefore, the comment that I make is based
7 upon not just to review the evidence that has been called but --
8 JUDGE ORIE: But also on what you expect will be presented.
9 MR. EMMERSON: -- what we think the evidence will be.
10 MR. HARVEY: May I just respond briefly, Your Honour?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may.
12 MR. HARVEY: I want to make it absolutely clear that we have
13 absolutely no information to suggest that Nenad Remistar is dead or died
14 by foul means, and I certainly didn't wish any of my questions to be taken
15 as an acknowledgement or admission of that. I'm merely dealing with the
16 witness's third-hand hearsay understanding.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. So therefore, where you said we have
18 absolutely no information to suggest, that might be a bit too strong
19 because we have the testimony of this witness who says that he heard about
20 it. So therefore -- but we all agree that that's hearsay until now and
21 whether it's second- or third-hand hearsay depends on what the source knew
22 or --
23 MR. HARVEY: Indeed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And that's perhaps not fully explored. Yes.
25 MR. EMMERSON: I simply meant, raise the issue for clarification
1 for Your Honours; not necessarily for clarification with the witness.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then this was the point you would like to
4 Then we'll have a break and we'll resume at -- but let's first ask
5 the witness to put his earphones on again.
6 Witness 6, there was a procedural matter we had to discuss, but we
7 now take our time for a break. We'll resume at 11.00, and could
8 Mr. Harvey give us any indication on how much time he would still need?
9 MR. HARVEY: It will certainly be all of the next session,
10 Your Honour. I cannot with certainty rule out the possibility that I
11 won't go over into the third session, but I will certainly finish with
12 this witness today.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but there are other Defence counsel as well.
14 Mr. Emmerson --
15 MR. EMMERSON: I would expect something in the region of 40
17 JUDGE ORIE: 40 minutes.
18 Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: 15 minutes to a half-hour.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thus far, very little re-examination.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thus far.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: A matter of minutes at the absolute most.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I will be more than happy to keep the Chamber
25 updated as the questioning progresses.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. EMMERSON: Likewise. It may well be that some of the
3 questions that I had in mind may will have already been asked.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours --
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Just a logistical matter, if Your Honours please,
9 can we - the Prosecution, that is - safely say or rely on the assumption
10 that we don't need the next witness brought here until at least the
11 completion of the next session. I see Defence counsel nodding --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and at the same time hearing -- you said next
13 session certainly, then perhaps even a bit more. The Chamber would very
14 much like not to -- that not the whole of today's time will be spent on
15 this witness. So therefore, try to see whether we can start with the next
16 witness. I'm not thinking of -- of an hour, but rather at least that we
17 would have a start half an hour for the next witness. Here, of course,
18 we -- the evidence in chief was elicited in a non-leading way, so
19 therefore that the balance between Prosecution and Defence there is always
20 a bit different.
21 Let's -- the parties are urged to find the most efficient way,
22 and -- no, let me not further comment on this at this moment.
23 We'll have a break and we'll resume at 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, might I very, very briefly
2 introduce a new colleague who's joined the Prosecution, Ms. Antoinette
3 Issa. She will be leading the next witness, and I just wanted to inform
4 the Trial Chamber of this new face that you see before you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
6 And welcome in court, Ms. Issa.
7 Mr. Harvey, are you ready to --
8 MR. HARVEY: On behalf of the Defence, we welcome Ms. Issa as
10 Your Honour, two very quick corrections, if I may. I did misstate
11 myself at page 33 when I put to the witness that we were talking about the
12 month of July when he was first taken to Jabllanice. Of course, it should
13 have been June.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. HARVEY: I think that's clear to everybody. There was also a
16 point on page 29 when the witness was asked how long he spoke with Pavle
17 Zuvic when he met him in the street. My -- I'm told that the transcript
18 reads - we're having some problems with our technology over here - but I'm
19 told that the transcript reads three to four minutes, but in fact what the
20 witness had said was ten minutes. It's not a major point --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I remember that at least it was translated as
22 three to four minutes, but I'm just looking now at page --
23 MR. HARVEY: 29, I believe.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- 29. Let me just -- yes, it's line 20.
25 Witness 6, you told us that you met Pavle when you were coming out
1 of the clinic. There was some confusion about how long you then saw him.
2 Could you tell us how long that was.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't look at the time. We were
4 just standing and talking. I can't tell you exactly, five or ten minutes,
5 maybe, but the important thing is that we talked together.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You briefly met in passing and had a conversation
7 which lasted for at least a couple of minutes. Is that ...
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can't be very precise about
9 the minutes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
12 MR. HARVEY:
13 Q. More important is, obviously, what was said, Witness 6, and you
14 have told us that during that conversation Pavle Zuvic told you that he
15 believed that Nenad Remistar had been killed at Jabllanice. That's right,
16 that's what he told you, yes?
17 A. Yes, this is what he told me.
18 Q. He didn't tell you how he knew that or who told him that?
19 A. No, he didn't tell me, and I didn't ask him.
20 Q. He told you that the body was not dumped near Radoniq canal;
22 A. He didn't tell me.
23 Q. He didn't tell you that the body was not dumped near the canal --
24 in Lake Radoniq, sorry.
25 A. No, no, he didn't.
1 Q. Did he tell you that he thought that it was dumped somewhere in
2 the mountains near Peje or Klina?
3 A. Yes, this is what he told me. He was buried on the side of the
4 street -- of a street, but I don't know the place where.
5 Q. And he didn't tell you what his source of information was about
7 A. No.
8 Q. And he didn't tell you -- sorry. And he didn't tell you whether
9 that was merely a rumour or something that he had discovered?
10 A. I don't know where he got that information from.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, to come back to your time in Jabllanice and who
12 was with you, when you were in the room that you have described in the
13 house, at what time do you say you were taken to that room?
14 A. It was afternoon. It was still daylight.
15 Q. Now, you understand what I mean by the room in the house?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that is different from the first building that you were taken
18 to on your first night. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes. In the room which is situated once you enter the yard on the
20 left side. We stayed there all night, and we were beaten and tortured and
21 we had lost consciousness, me and Nenad. I don't know what time it was
22 when they took us to another room, again on the left side of a room -- of
23 a building with four rooms, and then I don't know what happened to Nenad
24 after that.
25 Q. It may be something to do with the translation but what's just
1 come up on my screen was that you said: "I don't know what time it was
2 when they took us to another room, again on the left side of a building
3 with four rooms, and then I don't know what happened to Nenad after that."
4 Did they take you both to this other room on the left-hand side of
5 the building with four rooms?
6 A. No, only myself. He was not there.
7 Q. And this was after 24 hours; is that your statement?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you then stayed alone in that room for - was it - two weeks --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- three weeks, three and a half weeks?
12 A. Two weeks, I think, approximately two weeks. I don't know
13 exactly. I couldn't tell day from night because I was shut in the room
14 and I wasn't able to know what time it was, whether it was day-time or
15 night-time. I was locked up and beaten.
16 Q. This is a room that has a window, isn't it?
17 A. Yes, one.
18 Q. And what do you mean by saying you couldn't tell whether it was
19 day or night?
20 A. Because it was barred from -- with some planks, wooden planks. It
21 was boarded with some wooden planks.
22 Q. And is your testimony that you never left that room for any
23 purpose at all during those two weeks?
24 A. No, I didn't.
25 Q. Does that mean no, you didn't leave the room, or no, you are not
1 saying you didn't leave the room?
2 Let me put the question more clearly. Were you ever taken out of
3 that room during those two weeks, for example, to go to the toilet?
4 A. Once a week, because I wasn't given anything to eat so I
5 couldn't -- I didn't need to go more often.
6 Q. Who took you out of the room to take you to the toilet?
7 A. Some persons there, unknown persons to me.
8 Q. Are you being entirely truthful when you say that you were only
9 taken out once a week to go to the toilet?
10 A. I didn't go out more often because, as I said, I didn't have
11 anything to eat or to drink. I was sick. I often was unconscious.
12 Q. You would agree, wouldn't you, that even if the window was boarded
13 up, it would still be possible to see light through the cracks; correct?
14 A. You could see a little light, but there was another cover, so to
15 say, I don't know, maybe kind of garage which prevented you from seeing
17 Q. I'm just trying to deal with your statement that: "I couldn't
18 tell day from night," and I'm trying to explore with you whether you are
19 so upset about your experience that you are exaggerating or whether you're
20 lying to this Tribunal. Are you saying that you could not tell whether it
21 was light outside at any time during that period of two weeks?
22 A. You could see some light from a crack but not much to speak of.
23 Q. Did you have a watch?
24 A. I did, but they took it away from me. They took away my watch and
25 my underpants. I was almost naked. My T-shirt and my trousers were torn.
1 They took away my watch -- or better say, they stole it from me and
2 returned it to me after four weeks.
3 Q. Oh, so they did give it back to you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And are you saying that you were never given a drop of water in
6 two weeks?
7 A. They brought us very little water in those glass jars, but not in
8 a proper glass. And I don't know where they fetched the water from. The
9 water was very dirty.
10 Q. [Microphone not activated]
11 You just said: "They brought us very little water ..."
12 My understanding, Witness, is that during those two weeks you were
13 entirely on your own in that room. Am I wrong about that?
14 A. Myself. I mean myself.
15 Q. And, Witness, I'm looking at your first statement to the ICTY
16 investigator that you made in November of 2002, page 5 of the last
17 paragraph of that statement, we read this: "During my detention period I
18 got a piece of bread every day and water to drink."
19 I'm not suggesting, Witness, that that was an ideal diet, but is
20 it right that you got a piece of bread every day and water to drink?
21 A. They brought, but I wasn't able to eat or to drink anything.
22 Q. You also indicated when you gave your statement to Zoran Nikic
23 last year: "Occasionally they gave me salami, bread, beans."
24 Is that true?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Well, you say "no." They never gave you salami or beans?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Can you think of any reason why the SUP officer to whom you gave
4 that statement last year would suddenly just put that in your statement if
5 it never happened?
6 A. I don't know what they've written there. I gave less details. I
7 don't know what they have written there.
8 Q. Or isn't the truth of it this: That you are exaggerating and
9 distorting what exactly happened in Jabllanice before this Tribunal
10 because you want to hurt my client, Lahi Brahimaj?
11 A. What I'm telling you, sir, is true. What are you asking me about,
12 I don't know, because those persons kidnapped me and did to me what they
13 did. And this is true, but, however, nine years have passed by since that
14 time, and things may be put rather differently sometimes. But the persons
15 who are there are alive and that's why I'm here to testify against them.
16 I'm not here to tell you whether I eat or not eat or beans or bread.
17 Q. Sir, the only --
18 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you don't remember something, just tell
20 us. Nevertheless, you are here to answer all questions put to you. And
21 therefore, the issue now is: Did you get anything to eat and to drink and
22 what did you get to eat and to drink. That is what Mr. Harvey wants to
23 find out, and he has put to you that at another occasion you have given
24 information which was not exactly the same as you gave today; that is,
25 once you talked about getting some bread and water every day, at another
1 moment it's put on paper that you would have said that you got some salami
2 or beans. Now, tell us, it was a period of six weeks, approximately. Was
3 the food in the beginning and the water the same as later? Were there any
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They gave us a piece of bread and
6 some marmalade. When I felt a little better to eat and to drink, in the
7 last two weeks it happened that we ate bread and beans. I was with Gani
8 Brahimaj; we were together.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
10 MR. HARVEY:
11 Q. Well, I'll come on to that in a little while. What I was trying
12 to do with your assistance, Witness 6, was to establish how long you
13 remained alone in that room after Nenad was taken away and before the
14 Bosnian and three Montenegrins arrived. Do you recall how long a time
15 that was, approximately?
16 A. Almost two weeks.
17 Q. [Microphone not activated]
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 MR. HARVEY: I'm sorry. Thank you.
20 Q. And how did you find out that the Bosnian worked at Elektro in
21 Decani? Did you discuss that with him?
22 A. The soldiers told him, You have worked for Serbia in
23 Elektrokosova. I didn't speak with him about that because he spoke almost
24 no Albanian.
25 Q. I think you told us that he did speak some Albanian and you did
1 have some conversation. Was that correct?
2 A. Yes, he talked, but I didn't understand him because he kept mixing
3 up Albanian with Serbian.
4 Q. You also told us that the three Montenegrins, you didn't know them
5 from before. Is that correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Does that mean that you actually did know the Bosnian from before?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you ever find out any of their names?
10 A. No.
11 Q. How many days and nights were you together in the same room?
12 A. Three or four days, not more than that.
13 Q. Did you ever tell any of them your name?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And after three or four days, were they taken away?
16 A. They were taken away and they were not brought there anymore. I
17 don't know where they were taken to.
18 Q. But for those three or four days, you all stayed together the
19 entire time, 24 hours a day, in that room. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And during that time you have said that they were beaten and
22 pierced with knives all over their bodies. Is that correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And who was present when that happened?
25 A. I didn't know them.
1 Q. How many people were involved in that?
2 A. One person had the knife. They came one by one. Someone kicked
3 him with blows, someone gave slaps to him, someone used baseball bats.
4 Q. Can you describe the people who did this?
5 A. I can't describe them to you.
6 Q. I suggest that's because it never happened. You never saw it; it
7 never happened, and you're just making this up, aren't you?
8 A. No, I'm not making it up. Things are as I described them, but
9 these persons I didn't know.
10 Q. All of them were pierced with knives, the Bosnian and the three
11 Montenegrins? Is that your testimony?
12 A. The Bosnian had more of them; the others less.
13 Q. And you were there the entire time, but nobody pierced you with
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Because, of course, if they had pierced you with knives we would
17 be able to see your scars, wouldn't we?
18 A. I can show you the wound I have that was caused to me by a
19 baseball bat. I am here. I can show you my wound.
20 Q. We'll come to that. After three or four days, the Bosnian, the
21 three Montenegrins were taken away. And then you told us at some time
22 after that an Albanian Muslim who you describe as fat and in his 40s who
23 came from Zahaq was brought in the trunk of a Mercedes. Is that correct?
24 A. I don't know where he was apprehended. He was from Zahaq and, as
25 I said, they brought him in the trunk of his own car. And this was before
1 I was released, a week or two before I was released, and I had more
2 freedom to move around and I saw it when they got him out of the trunk.
3 Q. So this is in the last two weeks of your presence in Jabllanice.
4 Is that right?
5 A. No, about four weeks.
6 Q. I want to make sure that we understand each other. You're saying
7 that it's about four weeks before you were released or four weeks after
8 you arrived?
9 A. Four weeks after I arrived. At that time I had a little more
10 freedom to go out into the yard, and I saw what happened myself.
11 Q. Did you see the Mercedes arrive?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you see him get out of the trunk?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did -- was he put in the same room in which you were staying,
16 that's the front room on the left of the entrance door?
17 A. No. He was in the right-hand side room. He was in another room.
18 Q. Did you have conversation with him while he was there?
19 A. No.
20 Q. From whom did you learn that he was from Zahaq?
21 A. I had spoken to Pal Krasniqi.
22 Q. How many days in all did the man from Zahaq stay at Jabllanice?
23 A. Two days.
24 Q. When he arrived, could you see what condition he was in?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was he able to stand?
2 A. No. He was lying down on the floor in the room.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I'm very sorry to interrupt. I'm just looking at
4 page 49, line 21, where the witness's answer as translated in response to
5 the question: "From whom did you learn that he was from Zahaq?" is
6 recorded as: "I had spoken to Pal Krasniqi."
7 And for the sake of clarification, when the words "had spoken"
8 appear, it would certainly assist my understanding of this witness's
9 testimony to know whether he is there referring to a conversation which
10 had taken place before this man from Zahaq arrived; in other words, had
11 spoken before then, or he means had spoken subsequently to Pal Krasniqi
12 because of certain answers he's given already.
13 MR. HARVEY: I can assure my learned friend that I have no
14 intention of leaving it there. I do intend to come back to it, but I want
15 to take my course with this witness, if I may.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You may. Please proceed.
17 MR. HARVEY:
18 Q. When you said that he was not able to stand, the man from Zahaq,
19 he was lying down in the room on the other side of the front door. Is
20 that right?
21 A. Sometimes I was ordered to give him some water to drink.
22 Q. And at that stage, were you working in the kitchens?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So this is before you started to work in the kitchens that he was
25 brought to Jabllanice. Is that right?
1 A. It was during those days that I had a little more freedom when he
2 was brought in.
3 Q. Just so that we understand the sequence, you were kept, you say,
4 for approximately four weeks before you were allowed some freedom. Is
5 that right?
6 A. Yes. After four weeks, I was a little more free to move.
7 Q. And then was there a time when you were a little more free to move
8 and then a later time when you worked in the kitchens?
9 A. No, I did not work in the kitchen. I just washed up the dishes.
10 Q. Well, some of us might call that work. I'll come back to that.
11 When you said the man from Zahaq was only there for two days, was anybody
12 else brought in during the time when he was there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How many other people were brought in?
15 A. Pal Krasniqi and the one from Grabanica. I don't know his name.
16 Q. And were they brought in together, Pal and the one from Grabanica?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Who --
19 A. No, no. At different times.
20 Q. Who came first?
21 A. Pal.
22 Q. And did Pal arrive before the man from Zahaq or after?
23 A. The person from Zahaq came earlier, one day earlier, so one day
24 before Pal.
25 Q. And the man from Grabanice, when did he come in relation to Pal
1 and the man from Zahaq?
2 A. About two or three hours later; I saw him when they brought him.
3 Q. Two or three hours later than Pal or two or three hours later than
4 the man from Zahaq?
5 A. After Pal.
6 Q. Now, you knew Pal from before, didn't you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. How did you learn his name?
9 A. When I took bread and water to him, I asked him what his name was
10 and where he was from.
11 Q. And was he in the same room as the man from Zahaq?
12 A. Yes, both of them were beaten up, Pal and the one from Zahaq. The
13 one from Zahaq was beaten up also the day before, and the second day they
14 were both beaten continuously.
15 Q. When you say "continuously," was there a soldier or more than one
16 soldier with them the entire day, on that second day?
17 A. Sometimes there was one at the door, sometimes they did not beat
18 them. But the soldiers would go one after the other, and they beat them;
19 that was their programme.
20 Q. Again, I'd like to understand that. You say: "Sometimes there
21 was one at the door, sometimes they did not beat them." But the soldiers
22 would go one after another.
23 Does that mean there was always a soldier at -- standing guard at
24 the door or somebody, a soldier, in there beating them? And let me give
25 you the third opportunity, the third option, that there was no one
1 there -- that there were times when there was no soldier with them at all?
2 A. There were times when there was no soldier there and the door was
3 locked. There was such occasions.
4 Q. And what about the man from Grabanice, where was he?
5 A. In the same room as Pal and the one from Zahaq.
6 Q. And was the man from Grabanice beaten as well?
7 A. No.
8 Q. [Microphone not activated]
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. HARVEY: Sorry.
11 Q. How do you know?
12 A. Because he was married to someone from Jabllanice, and his wife's
13 family came and intervened and he was not beaten.
14 Q. So he arrived on the second day when the man from Zahaq was there,
15 and although they beat Pal, they didn't touch the man from Grabanice;
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And you went into that room and saw what condition the man from
19 Zahaq was in; right?
20 A. Only when I took him some water to drink, I could see him.
21 Q. Was he able to drink the water?
22 A. No, I had to give it to him.
23 Q. When you gave it to him, did he drink it with your assistance?
24 A. Sometimes I left the water there, in the jar in the room, and Pal
25 Krasniqi helped him to drink it.
1 Q. When you say "sometimes," that suggests that you went on more than
2 one occasion, certainly, to see him in that room?
3 A. No. Only the times when I had to give him the water or the bread,
4 because I was not in their room. I went up to the door.
5 Q. And you went into the room?
6 A. No, no.
7 Q. You told us a moment ago -- when I asked you, "Was he able to
8 drink the water?", you answered, "No, I had to give it to him."
9 Now, did you give him the water or not?
10 A. I left the water inside the room, close to the door, and Pal would
11 take it. And whether they drank it or whether he drank it or not, I don't
13 Q. What can you tell us about the physical condition of the man from
14 Zahaq? Was he lying down?
15 A. Yes, lying down.
16 Q. Were his eyes open?
17 A. Closed. He was fat and also swollen because of the beating, so
18 his eyes -- he could not open his eyes. He was all swollen.
19 Q. What part did you see swollen?
20 A. Could you repeat the question, please. Well, physically he was
21 fat and because of the beating, I could not -- I thought that his clothes
22 could not contain his body because of the swelling.
23 Q. Did you actually see him being beaten at any time?
24 A. Yes, when they got him off the trunk of the car, they beat him at
25 that time. Nazmi, Lahi, and the persons that I have already stated in my
1 statement. And after that, when he attempted to escape, he was caught,
2 the person from Zahaq and Pal Krasniqi, they were caught. It was the
3 other one from Grabanice who opened the window and escaped from the
4 window. He was not beaten, so he could escape, he could run, while the
5 two others who were beaten, they could not run at all.
6 Q. [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
8 MR. HARVEY:
9 Q. Now, you you've just told us - and I'll be corrected if I'm
10 wrong - you've just told us for the first time that he was beaten by
11 Nazmi, Lahi, and the persons that I have already stated in my statement.
12 First of all, I put it to you that Lahi was not present when this
13 individual was brought to Jabllanice and that you are, at best, mistaken
14 about that.
15 A. He was there. That's it.
16 Q. And I'm looking at your statement - and again I'll be corrected if
17 I'm wrong - but there is no reference in the statement where you first
18 mention these individuals, when you first mentioned the man from Zahaq,
19 and that is November of 2002. There's no mention of who did the beating.
20 Do you think that you may have been mistaken about that?
21 A. No, I was not mistaken, but maybe the translator forgot to put it
22 in there.
23 Q. Now, in your second statement, which is the first time that you
24 mention the attempted escape, you said this --
25 MR. HARVEY: And, Your Honours, I'm at page 3 of the statement,
1 the 17th and 18th of January, 2003.
2 Q. -- "now," that's the last paragraph on that page.
3 "Now, I also remember that this Albanian," that's the Albanian
4 from Zahaq, "tried to escape from the prison together with the two other
6 Is it right, sir, that you didn't remember anything about this
7 supposed escape in your first statement?
8 A. I did not understand you.
9 Q. Is it right that when you first gave a statement to the OTP
10 investigator in November of 2002, you said nothing at all about an
11 attempted escape?
12 A. Maybe I forgot. I did not remember it to mention it at the time.
13 Q. And again I'm looking at your second statement, the one in
14 February of 2003. You said nothing about him being beaten when he arrived
15 in the trunk of the car on that occasion, but I'll come to the question of
16 Pal Krasniqi again, if I may. As Mr. Emmerson pointed out --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey --
18 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- I'm just trying to find the February 2003 --
20 MR. DI FAZIO: I think that's a mistake, if Your Honours please.
21 I think it's just -- it's in fact quite -- unless -- it's January. It's
22 January, I think.
23 JUDGE ORIE: January of 2003 or February of 2004, yes.
24 MR. HARVEY: I beg your pardon.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I insist on precision, Mr. Harvey.
1 MR. HARVEY: Point taken.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Especially since you are going in so much detail the
3 Chamber wonders whether that -- not to prevent you from going into
4 details, but if you are asking about such details and at the same time are
5 talking about working in the kitchens, where the testimony of the witness
6 was, that he almost, at least in his later time, was with Gani, where he
7 said Gani was a cook. Where he once mentioned a kitchen he was talking
8 about a makeshift kitchen in which he was when the people escaped, or not
9 to say: Was that when you worked in the kitchens is -- is -- well,
10 especially since you insist so much on tiny little details and what was
11 said, et cetera, that, to be very precise as well, and the Chamber
12 wonders -- of course, it's -- it's good now and then to go into the depth
13 and to test the evidence, but sometimes it takes a form which my fellow
14 Judges and I consider not -- not very useful.
15 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I accept that admonishment. I am trying
16 as best I can using the materials we have, not all of which, of course,
17 are within the statements of this witness, to test the --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. HARVEY: -- extent to which he is both being accurate and --
20 and honest in his --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we do understand. Please proceed.
22 MR. HARVEY: I'm trying not to overdo the detail.
23 Q. Witness, you did say that you had learned -- you had spoken with
24 Pal Krasniqi and it was him -- from him that you had learned that this man
25 came from Zahaq. Now, when did you have that conversation with Pal
2 A. Before two weeks -- I mean, two weeks before I was released and I
3 was freer to move around. And you asked me about the kitchen. This was
4 not a proper kitchen in a building like this one here. It was in the
5 meadow. It was not a proper kitchen. It was in the meadow, and you could
6 see around for several metres -- thousand metres.
7 Q. Where was it that you had the conversation with Pal Krasniqi,
8 where he told you that the man came from Zahaq?
9 A. In the yard, when he was allowed to go into the yard as well. I
10 asked him where the other person was from and he said, He's from Zahaq,
11 and he didn't know anything else.
12 Q. Was that on Pal's first day or his second day there?
13 A. No. It was after some time when he was able to walk and get out.
14 Q. Was the man from Zahaq still there at that time?
15 A. No. He had been sent to the hospital in Gllogjan of Decane.
16 That's what I heard.
17 Q. And from whom did you hear that?
18 A. I used to talk to Gani Brahimaj. He worked as a cook. He was
19 close to me, and I spoke to him.
20 Q. How far was Gani Brahimaj's house from the barracks where you were
22 A. About 40 or 50 metres.
23 Q. And you went to Gani Brahimaj's house, didn't you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. If you didn't go there, how did you know where it was?
1 A. He told me.
2 Q. Where was the bread baked for the soldiers in the barracks?
3 A. Where the concrete wall is, the white concrete wall is; it used to
4 be covered and there was an oven there, an iron oven, and that's where
5 Gani baked the bread.
6 Q. And you helped him bake the bread, didn't you?
7 A. No, no.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, perhaps just for the witness.
9 Witness 6, the sound you hear is a monthly testing of security
10 devices in the Netherlands, so don't worry about what you hear.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
12 MR. HARVEY: Not just for the witness, I'm grateful to hear that
13 as well.
14 Q. Witness, how far away was Nazmi Brahimaj's house from the
16 A. I don't know Jabllanice well. The day I left, I could see
17 properly -- from the place I was in the prison, it could be of about 200,
18 250 metres far. When I went to get the papers and the car but they didn't
19 give me the car.
20 Q. So you went out to -- you went out of the barracks in order to get
21 the papers from Nazmi Brahimaj. Is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you walked to his house?
24 A. Those documents that they gave me, that they had kept my car for
25 military reasons, that was the last day. And it was that day that I found
1 out where -- how far his house was from the detention place.
2 Q. How did you find his house?
3 A. A soldier came with me.
4 Q. How did you know where Gani's house was?
5 A. That soldier told me, This is where his house and his office is,
6 because I didn't know before that.
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I'm sorry, of what house were you speaking? You
8 were now referring to Gani's house again?
9 MR. HARVEY: Yes, his house --
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Wasn't that addressed before?
11 MR. HARVEY:
12 Q. The house where Gani Brahimaj lived, you knew where that was,
13 didn't you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you were able to draw a sketch map for the investigator in
16 2002, November, showing the relationship between the barracks, the Gani
17 Brahimaj house, and the Nazmi Brahimaj house, weren't you?
18 A. They showed me on the computer and then I drew this sketch,
19 indicating the distance.
20 Q. So you had a good recollection of the relationship between those
21 buildings, even some three and a half years after you had left Jabllanice.
22 Is that correct?
23 A. Can you repeat the question, please.
24 Q. You had a good recollection of the relationship between those
25 three buildings, the barracks, Gani's house, Nazmi's house over three
1 years after you had left Jabllanice. Is that correct?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, could the witness first tell us what was
3 shown to him on the computer before we ask further about recollections.
4 Could you tell us, you said: "They showed me on the computer and
5 then I drew this sketch indicating the distance." What exactly did they
6 show you on the computer?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The house where I was detained, that
8 prison, and some other houses on a map. But now, if you ask me now, I
9 don't know where these houses are, whether they are still there or
10 destroyed or rebuilt, because I haven't been to Jabllanice ever since, so
11 I don't know it very well.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Did they show you pictures of these houses or did
13 they show you a map?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They showed -- they asked me to draw
15 kind of sketch, to tell them how far these houses were from one another.
16 They asked me, If you go to Jabllanice from Gjakove, I showed them which
17 way to go. On the left side are the houses; the mosque is on the right
18 side, a little bit further.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But did they show you pictures of these houses as
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. They showed me a picture of
22 Jabllanice, of the entire Jabllanice village.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And by a picture then, do you mean a map or a
24 photograph, or an aerial photograph?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A whole picture of the place called
1 Jabllanice, no sketch. Only houses next to each other as they were, you
3 JUDGE ORIE: And was that picture taken from -- from the ground or
4 was it taken from the air, for example, from an aeroplane?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the air.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
7 MR. HARVEY: [Microphone not activated]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 MR. HARVEY: Sorry.
10 Madam Registrar, perhaps if we could have 3D010062 on our screens,
11 and then if we can go to the sketch map which should be on the 11th page
12 of that exhibit -- of that document, rather. Looking at the top at
13 U0031392, if we can scroll forward to that. Or perhaps, first of all,
14 since we have this on the screen, I could ask the witness to identify it
15 as his statement?
16 Q. Witness, do you recognise this as being a copy of the statement
17 that you made on the 26th and 28th of November, 2002? You see your name
18 there, you see the date at the bottom.
19 A. I can't remember now because I have made many statements.
20 MR. HARVEY: Madam Registrar, I don't know if we can scroll
21 forward on this. No?
22 MR. DI FAZIO: It's the 11th page onwards from the beginning of
23 the document. I know that ERN numbers aren't supposed to be any guidance,
24 but it's the -- 11 pages in, in to the statement.
25 THE REGISTRAR: My apologies, but here are only ten pages in the
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have at this moment -- in front of me, I have
3 the original eight pages, and I have an English version which stops,
4 Mr. Harvey, and therefore you refer to the ERN number, stops at --
5 MR. DI FAZIO: I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- last three digits, 391, whereas you wanted to take
7 us to --
8 MR. HARVEY: 392.
9 JUDGE ORIE: 302.
10 MR. HARVEY: 392, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got a note, if Your Honours please. I don't
13 know if this is of assistance, I hope I'm not misleading anyone, but that
14 this piece of evidence is 65 ter 777; now, that might be of some
15 assistance, I don't know.
16 MR. HARVEY: I'm very grateful to Mr. Gramsci and we'll see if we
17 can find that with the assistance of Madam Registrar.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 As a matter of fact, it looks only -- as if all the attachments to
20 the statement are not attached in the computer version. We could work,
21 perhaps, to put the -- if we can't find an electronic version, then
22 perhaps the sketch could be put on the ELMO so that the witness can look
23 at it.
24 MR. HARVEY: That may be the quickest way of dealing with the
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. HARVEY: So I'm grateful to Your Honour for your assistance
3 there. I have an unmarked copy of it. If that could be rotated
4 anti-clockwise, thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That -- this should not be shown to the public. I
6 just -- because it bears ...
7 MR. HARVEY: I'm grateful, Your Honour. Yes, thank you. And I
8 understand from Ms. Trapani, in fact, we do have a -- a court number for
9 this document. Just for reference's sake, it's 3D010193. I apologise; I
10 didn't realise that.
11 Q. Anyway, Witness, you see in front of you the sketch plan that you
12 drew on the 28th of November, 2002, and you signed this document; didn't
13 you, sir?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. And what does number 1 refer to on that document?
16 A. The place where I was detained for six weeks.
17 Q. And you -- there is something written to the left of that that I
18 can't read. Could you -- can you read that, sir?
19 A. On the left?
20 Q. Yes. On the left -- you've got a box with a 1 in it and then some
21 writing, just to the left of that box, a word that begins with B by the
22 look of it. What is that word?
23 A. It's 3, not B. That box you are asking me is number 3. On the
24 right side is the mosque.
25 Q. Sir, I want you to look, if you would, please, at the left side of
1 the drawing. You see a box with a number 1 in it, and then just above
2 that the number 200. You see that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Now, the box with the number 1 in it has some writing beside it
5 just to the left. Can you tell us what that is? First of all, is it your
7 A. Yes, it's "prison."
8 Q. Okay. And then you have the number 200, and then above that
9 another box with a 2 in it and what looks like Ibrahimaj beside that.
10 Does that indicate 200 metres between buildings 1 and 2?
11 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.
12 Q. What --
13 A. Maybe it's more than 200 metres or less, but approximately.
14 Q. Does the box in between the 1 and 2 indicate anything, sir?
15 A. I don't know. Maybe that's the house of Gani Brahimaj.
16 Q. And what does the number 3 indicate, sir, on the right-hand side
17 of that drawing?
18 A. It's the mosque.
19 Q. And is that the word that you've written underneath there, the
20 word for mosque?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, the mosque actually wasn't there during the war, was it?
23 A. It was there before the war. It was, but without a minaret. Now
24 I don't know if they have repaired it because I haven't been to Jabllanice
25 ever since. But when I entered there, when they took me to the prison, I
1 saw it. And when I went to the Brahimajs' house to gather papers, I saw
3 Q. The reality is, sir, that you were free to walk around that
4 village almost the entire time you were in Jabllanice, weren't you?
5 A. During the two weeks that I mentioned that I had more freedom, I
6 could have escaped but I didn't want to take that chance. I wanted to see
7 what kind of people they were, what kind of integrity and morality they
9 Q. You're saying you stayed out of curiosity when you could just have
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, the witness actually
12 said I didn't -- two things: I didn't want to take a chance, which
13 carries with it various implications; and secondly, the other reason was
14 he wanted to see what kind of people they were. So that it's twofold.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, similar things would
16 have come into my mind, Mr. Di Fazio, when hearing the question because
17 the suggestion that this is what the witness said is -- is certainly
18 not -- doesn't reflect the whole of his answer. But let's hear what the
19 witness says.
20 Mr. Harvey asked you whether it was curiosity that kept you there,
21 where you could have left the place.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had the chance to leave but I
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But Mr. Harvey asked you whether it was
25 curiosity that made you stay.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand very well the
2 question, sir.
3 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I think the last answer is -- is
4 one: "I had the chance to leave, but I didn't." I am content with that
5 answer and I'm willing to move on.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
7 MR. HARVEY:
8 Q. Witness, I'm going to make my position clear to you in relation to
9 the injuries that you say you received. I'm suggesting to you that you
10 have exaggerated beyond all reason the stories of beatings, the stories of
11 injuries, and the stories of the length of time that you were detained
12 while you were being investigated at Jabllanice. You understand the
13 suggestion that I am making to you, and I'm going to take you through this
14 in a little bit of detail. But do you understand, first of all, that I am
15 suggesting that you are exaggerating out of all reason and all reality?
16 A. I'm telling you what I experienced. You may say what you want,
17 sir, but I'm telling you what I went through, the injuries and everything
18 I suffered.
19 Q. First of all, you say that, on your arrival at Jabllanice, you
20 were dragged out of the car and you were beaten repeatedly and beaten
21 until they, the soldiers beating you, were exhausted. Do you stand by
23 A. They kept changing all the time. They took turns. I was
24 unconscious because of the tortures.
25 Q. You said they beat you with whatever they could lay their hands
1 on, including baseball bats. You stand by that?
2 A. Yes, I do, I do. They used anything they could lay hold -- hands
3 on, baseball bats, sticks, whatever.
4 Q. And this was all on the first night that you arrived there;
5 correct? I'm just dealing with that first night for now. We'll come to
6 the other stuff later.
7 A. Yes, on the first night, yes.
8 Q. And did those beatings continue throughout the night?
9 A. They beat us continuously.
10 Q. I just want to make sure that we all understand correctly. They
11 beat you from your arrival throughout the night until dawn. Is that what
12 you're saying?
13 A. I was unconscious. Sometimes I regained my consciousness,
14 sometimes not, and I can't really tell you because you understand. When
15 you are not aware of what happens to you, you cannot tell for sure. Maybe
16 three days went by. I can't say.
17 Q. Well, you say now that maybe three days went by before you were
18 moved from that first building to the room in the house. Is that what
19 you're seriously suggesting now, sir?
20 A. I'm telling you that I was unconscious and that I cannot tell for
21 sure for how long, whether they beat me in the morning -- until morning or
22 half night. That's why I said three days passed by, and I can't say for
24 Q. You told us yesterday that you were never given any reason for why
25 you were being beaten. Do you stand by that?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did they never ask you any questions?
3 A. Yes, they did ask questions. They told me, You have stayed in the
4 company of Serbs, because they themselves stayed with Serbs day and night,
5 and they accused me of staying with Serbs. I was a farmer.
6 Q. You were a farmer with a pistol. What were you doing with a
8 A. Nothing. My father had permission to possess a pistol, then after
9 some years I changed the papers and put it in my name.
10 Q. You were driving a car and you had a pistol on you. When you
11 reached the Serb roadblock, were you searched by the Serb police?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did they ask to see your papers?
14 A. No. They stopped me, saw me - I was with my family - and told me
15 not to go that way, so I turned back.
16 Q. They didn't ask to see your driver's licence?
17 A. No, they didn't.
18 Q. Did you know any of the Serb police officers who stopped you?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And did they tell you to go back because there was a risk of there
21 being a KLA roadblock?
22 A. They told me, You shouldn't go this way with your family. Better
23 go home. It's not good to drive in this area. So I was obliged to go
24 back in the direction of my home.
25 Q. And when you were stopped at the UCK roadblock, you were searched
1 there, weren't you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And they found the pistol on you; correct?
4 A. Yes, correct.
5 Q. And you told them that you had a licence for the pistol. Did you
6 show them the licence?
7 A. They took it along with the licence.
8 Q. Why were you carrying a pistol with you in the car?
9 A. I was just carrying it. I had a licence to carry it and I did.
10 Q. Was that a police-issued pistol?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And to whom did the police issue that pistol, reserve policemen?
13 A. When the Albanian police were there, I had a permission, and then
14 I had it also when the Serbian police took over.
15 Q. Did you have a photograph album in your car when you were stopped?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you have any photographs --
18 A. Only of film [Realtime transcript read in error, "Hil"], only of
19 film. Yes, I had a photo with a friend.
20 Q. And the translation we have on the screen is: "Only of Hil." Is
21 Hil the name of the friend?
22 A. What are you saying?
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is a misunderstanding. I think it was only a
24 film. This is what I understood.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's also what I thought I heard.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a film.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
3 MR. HARVEY: I'm grateful to Your Honours. Thank you.
4 Q. You had a photograph of yourself with a friend. Was that friend a
5 police officer?
6 A. Yes, he was a retired police officer.
7 Q. You knew quite a lot of police officers, didn't you, Witness 6?
8 A. No.
9 Q. When you got into the Opel Kadett, you found some photographs
10 there, didn't you?
11 A. Of the person whose car was held.
12 Q. And as soon as you saw those photographs, you recognised that
13 person, didn't you, you recognised him as Nenad?
14 A. Yes, his name was Nenad. He was working as a traffic policeman.
15 I could recognise him because, when I went to Gjakove, I had seen him.
16 Q. Well, you had not just seen him, you knew what village he lived
17 in, a little village near Klina; right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. How did you know that he lived in that village?
20 A. The Albanian policeman had told me where he was from.
21 Q. I'm sorry, which Albanian policeman told you that?
22 A. His name is Zokan Kuqi.
23 Q. And when did you have that conversation with Zokan Kuqi?
24 A. I used to have contact with him frequently. He was a commander in
25 our area. Two years before the war started, he retired and he was the one
1 who knew him better. He told me.
2 Q. Is that the one who was in the photograph with you?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
5 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock. At the same time, I would
7 like to seek one clarification.
8 You said you had a photograph with you with a friend, a retired
9 police officer. On that photograph, was that retired police officer
10 portrayed in uniform or in civilian?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Uniform.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Mr. Harvey, could you give us any further indication at this
15 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, it's difficult. I will spend the next
16 break doing what I can to cut down on the questions. Your Honour will
17 appreciate that this witness speaks to a significant number of victims who
18 are laid at my client's door, and Your Honour, I know, will appreciate
19 that I have been pretty quiet until now. But these are issues that I
20 can't pass over lightly, and I am trying to keep the detail down to a
21 reasonable minimum, and I've cut out quite a bit already, and I will, as I
22 say, attempt to trim as much as I can during the current break.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. HARVEY: I think, realistically, I'm going to need about
25 another 40 minutes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will -- yes, Mr. --
2 MR. EMMERSON: Can I indicate I've given some thought to the time
3 estimate that I gave to Your Honours before the break, and I -- I think I
4 can shave it down to 25 minutes; it was 40.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That still means that we couldn't finish today unless
6 Mr. --
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I will be --
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- Guy-Smith, unless you go to the minus eight or the
9 minus ten.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't know if I could go down to minus eight,
11 but I probably could go up to plus three.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Harvey -- of course I see Mr. Di Fazio is
13 also on his feet.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm just saying that my re-examination has probably
15 gone from a few minutes now to maybe just a few more minutes, possibly
16 eight minutes or so.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, the Chamber will consider whether the 40
18 minutes you said you would need, whether -- in full respect for the fact
19 that you, until now, have not taken much time with the cross-examination.
20 At the same time, sometimes where you didn't take it, it was on the basis
21 of an understanding among Defence counsel how to divide the time. So
22 therefore, it's acknowledged that you're right, and at the same time I add
23 this footnote to your observation.
24 We'll have a break and we'll resume at five minutes to 1.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, the Chamber invites you to finish in 30
4 MR. HARVEY: I'll do my best to accept your invitation,
5 Your Honour.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 5358 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
24 MR. HARVEY:
25 Q. When you left Jabllanice, Pal was walking around and his health
1 was improving. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. And he had the freedom that you had to walk around in the -- the
4 grounds of the barracks. Is that what you've told us?
5 A. Yes, he did.
6 Q. [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Harvey.
8 MR. HARVEY: Sorry.
9 Q. When you met Jabllanice, were there any other people whom you
10 would describe as prisoners still being held in the barracks?
11 A. No, only Pal.
12 Q. And how many soldiers, approximately, stayed in the barracks while
13 you were there, sir?
14 A. I don't know what to tell you about this.
15 Q. Would it be more than 50 or less than 50?
16 A. Two or three of them would come and beat you, and then ten or 15
17 others would come. People were coming and going. They were always on the
18 move. I don't know what to tell you.
19 Q. Different numbers at different times while you were there. What
20 was the largest number that you would say, approximately, you recall being
21 in the barracks at any time while you were there?
22 A. When they would go towards Albania to get weapons, there could be
23 a hundred or 200 of them there that I saw when they came to eat.
24 Q. How did you know they were going to Albania to get weapons?
25 A. They talked amongst each other, and I also asked Gani and he told
1 me that they were going to get weapons.
2 Q. You did tell one of the ICTY -- or one of the Office of the
3 Prosecutor's investigators that -- these words: "I was working in the
4 kitchen, too, during my last two weeks of my imprisonment."
5 Now, first of all, is that correct, that you did say you were
6 working in the kitchen for two weeks?
7 A. I did not work in the kitchen. I washed-up in the meadow outside.
8 Q. I'm going to ask you about how you came to make your first
9 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor. How did they get in touch with
10 you or how did you get in touch with them?
11 A. It will be -- it would be a long story to tell you.
12 Q. If it has to be long, it has to be long. Let's try and keep it as
13 short as we can. When was the first approach made, and was it made by you
14 or was it made to you?
15 A. The Albanian police.
16 Q. Who in the Albanian police approached you?
17 A. They came to the house, they broke down the door, and they found
18 some bullets of the gun that the KLA had taken from me, and they were
19 asking me to give them that gun again; I mean the Albanian police. They
20 also had with them Spanish KFOR soldiers. They wanted me to give them the
21 same gun that had been already taken from me. I didn't want to tell them
22 anything, and they still insisted. And I showed them the documents that I
23 had been given, the papers I had been given in Jabllanice, and that's how
24 it all started.
25 Q. When do you say that took place?
1 A. Immediately after the war and also in 2002. I was searched twice.
2 Q. And when were you first asked to go to or to meet with
3 investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor? When were you first
4 asked that?
5 A. They came and asked me, Are you this and that person? And I said,
6 Yes, and I explained the story and we continued.
7 Q. My question, sir, was: When did this happen?
8 A. In 2002.
9 Q. And where did it happen?
10 A. In Prizren.
11 Q. How did you come to be in Prizren?
12 A. I had been called to go and give the statement.
13 Q. Were you called by telephone?
14 A. No, they came to my place and we spoke orally.
15 Q. Who came?
16 A. I don't know them, but they were in UNMIK car or maybe UNHCR.
17 Q. How many of them?
18 A. Only one.
19 Q. And was that the same person who interviewed you in Prizren?
20 A. I don't know his name. I can't remember.
21 Q. I'm not asking you for his name, sir. I'm asking: Is the same
22 person who came to your house the same person who then interviewed you
23 when you went to Prizren?
24 A. No, no, it was another one.
25 Q. How soon after the person came to your house did you go to
2 A. About a week later, but I'm not sure. I'm not hundred per cent
4 Q. Did they come to your house to give you a -- to drive you to
5 Prizren or did you have to go there under your own -- in your own car?
6 A. I went by bus.
7 Q. And how many days did you stay in Prizren?
8 A. I did not stay for days. I stayed for two or three hours.
9 Q. And was this the only time you went to Prizren in connection with
10 making a statement?
11 A. I was there about two times.
12 Q. And when you were taken, were you taken into an office to meet the
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And how many people were there in the office while the interview
16 took place?
17 A. Only one.
18 Q. There was you, there was the investigator. Was there an
19 interpreter present?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So that's three people in the room. Anybody else?
22 A. No.
23 Q. When you were being questioned by the investigator, did you -- did
24 the investigator use a computer to take notes?
25 A. I can't remember.
1 Q. You've already told the Trial Chamber this morning that you were
2 shown a picture on a computer. You recall the computer, don't you?
3 A. It was the picture that I signed.
4 Q. My question was: You recall that there was a computer, don't you?
5 A. I can't remember. There was a computer, but I don't know whether
6 they were doing anything.
7 Q. Do you recall if there was a tape recorder?
8 A. No, no, only the interpreter interpreted, and I don't know beyond
10 Q. Do you recall if there was a videocamera in the room?
11 A. I don't know. I didn't see any.
12 Q. While you and the -- while you and the investigator were speaking,
13 did the investigator write down any notes on a notepad?
14 A. There was a simple notebook and he was writing in his handwriting.
15 Q. Do you recall on a later date that you went to Pristina to look at
16 some photographs?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You saw photographs in the office of the investigator in Pristina,
19 it was the same investigator, wasn't it?
20 A. I did not have the same person twice.
21 MR. HARVEY: Perhaps we could have 3D010092 on the screen.
22 Q. And while that's coming up, I have a couple more questions for
23 you, Witness. You recall when you went to look at some photographs -
24 whoever the investigator was - you remember seeing photographs, don't you?
25 A. Yes, I did look at photographs. I have to look at them now again,
1 though, because if I don't have them here, I don't know what to tell you
2 about them.
3 Q. I'm just looking to see what you remember for a moment. Do you
4 recall being shown a number of boards or pieces of paper that had eight
5 photographs of different people on them? Do you recall being shown a
6 number of boards that had several photographs on them and being asked to
7 see if you could pick out anybody in those photographs? Do you remember
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What were you told about those boards? We'll call them
11 photo-boards. What did the investigator tell you to do in relation to
12 those photo-boards?
13 A. I recognised the people who were in Jabllanice, the soldiers.
14 Some of them I did not recognise. Whoever I recognised, I pointed at
16 Q. Again, sir, my question was quite specific. What did the
17 investigator tell you to do?
18 A. Nothing. Nothing. He didn't order me to do anything.
19 Q. Before he showed you the boards, did he explain what he was going
20 to do?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did he give you any instructions about what you should do if you
23 recognised somebody on the boards?
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. Now, sir, I want you to cast your mind back. Before that day when
1 you went to see the investigator in Pristina, before then and after your
2 release from Jabllanice, had you ever seen a photograph of Nazmi Brahimaj
3 in between those two times?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Had -- in any of your conversations with any police officer, had
6 you ever been shown photographs of any of the people from Jabllanice?
7 A. Which police?
8 Q. The police in Gjakove, the Serb police.
9 A. No, they didn't. They didn't give me any specifications when I
10 was in Gjakove.
11 Q. Did the UNMIK police ever show you any photographs?
12 A. No, no.
13 Q. So apart from the investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor,
14 did anybody ever show you any photographs?
15 A. They asked me whether I knew the persons, if I looked at their
16 photos, and I said yes when I -- some of them I recognised, some of them I
18 Q. My question, sir, was whether, apart from that investigator, did
19 anybody else ever show you any photographs in relation to Jabllanice?
20 A. No, no.
21 Q. Okay. When you were shown the photo-boards, do you recall whether
22 you were sitting down at a table or were you standing up or how -- how
23 were you positioned when you looked at them?
24 A. I was sitting. I was sitting.
25 Q. And in relation to where you were sitting, sir, where was the
1 investigator who was giving you the photo-boards?
2 A. He was across of me.
3 Q. So he was sitting on the other side of the table facing you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you asked to mark the photo-boards in any way?
6 A. Can you repeat the question, please.
7 Q. Were you asked to mark the photo-boards in any way?
8 A. They simply -- I was simply asked who -- whether I knew any of
9 them, and, if I did, I put a number.
10 Q. So the investigator said to you, If you know any of them, put a
12 A. No.
13 Q. Then, I'm sorry, please explain again what it is the investigator
14 said you should do in relation to those photo-boards.
15 A. They had the numbers there at the end of the photos, and I
16 indicated that this number is a certain person. I mentioned the name.
17 Q. And did the investigator ask you to either put a mark against the
18 photograph or to write your name alongside the photograph?
19 A. I looked at the photographs, and then I signed at the number of
20 the person that I recognised.
21 Q. And when you did that, what did the investigator say, if anything?
22 A. Nothing.
23 Q. Apart from the photo-boards, you were also shown some individual
24 photographs to see if you could recognise people who had been in
25 Jabllanice with you, people, for instance, like Pal Krasniqi.
1 A. I don't remember that.
10 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MR. HARVEY: [Microphone not activated]
17 I would like the witness to be shown, but not on the public
18 screen, 65 ter 787, if we can have that up on the screen, please.
19 Q. Do you remember being shown this photo-board, Witness 6?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. I don't want you to give a name right now, but do you recall
22 identifying number 2 on that photo-board?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you say that that was somebody that you had known from
25 your time in school?
1 A. Yeah, that's correct.
2 Q. And did you say that that was somebody --
3 MR. HARVEY: Or perhaps out of caution we should be in private
4 session just for this question.
5 [Private session]
11 Page 5371 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. HARVEY:
7 Q. Witness, it is not challenged that you correctly identified both
8 Nazmi Brahimaj and Lahi Brahimaj on the two separate photo-boards that you
9 were shown with their pictures on them. I wish to make that clear.
10 However, there are a number of points that I need to make to you. Number
11 1, Lahi Brahimaj was not present when -- on the evening when you were
12 brought to Jabllanice the first time, was he?
13 A. I don't recall it.
14 Q. Number 2, Lahi Brahimaj did visit the barracks very occasionally
15 during the six weeks that you were there, but he was not there frequently.
16 A. To me it seemed he was there every day.
17 Q. Number 3, Lahi Brahimaj never once touched you physically while
18 you were in Jabllanice?
19 A. I know he was there.
20 Q. Number 4, Lahi Brahimaj --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's try to have this clarified.
22 The question was -- Mr. Harvey put it to you that Lahi Brahimaj
23 never once touched you physically. And your answer was: "I know he was
24 there," but the question was whether he ever touched you physically.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Did he --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He did. He maltreated me, he and
3 his brother, continuously.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
5 MR. HARVEY:
6 Q. And the fourth point I was going to put to you, Witness, is that
7 he was never present on any occasion when anybody else maltreated you?
8 A. I didn't understand your question.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I try to ...
10 Mr. Harvey asked you whether Lahi Brahimaj -- whether -- when --
11 let me just have a look. Lahi Brahimaj, was he ever present when you were
12 maltreated by other persons?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was, he and Nazmija.
14 MR. HARVEY:
15 Q. Witness, you told this Tribunal yesterday -- I'm sorry, on Friday
16 that you had fractures, in the plural, as a result of the beatings that
17 you received. Do you stand by that, more than one fracture?
18 A. What fractures?
19 Q. [Microphone not activated]
20 That's what I'm asking you. Fractures of bones, Witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you guide us, Mr. Harvey, as to the exact --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had one fracture, and I have a
23 scar on my right arm, and I still feel pain to this day. My skin was cut
24 open. I had injuries on my arms, on my legs, everything hurts, my
25 kidneys, my lungs.
1 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, you asked for guidance,
2 unfortunately --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I found it. I found it, meanwhile; that's page 5210,
4 line 8, I take it --
5 MR. HARVEY: I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: I was beaten on my legs, arms, I had fractures on my
7 body, I have bruises on my back."
8 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 MR. HARVEY:
11 Q. So, Witness, one fracture or more than one fracture, please?
12 A. One, only one.
13 Q. [Microphone not activated]
14 And when you gave your first statement to the ICTY -- to the OTP
15 investigator on the 26th and 28th of November of 2002, you said this: "I
16 was beaten with a bat on my arms, legs, and on my back very badly and I
17 still have injuries, a small fracture on my right shoulder due to the
19 Is that what you told the investigator?
20 A. Maybe it's translated wrongly. I have my -- I have a wound on my
21 right side, but the fracture on my left side -- left arm.
22 Q. Did you have a small fracture on your right shoulder?
23 A. No, I have only pains.
24 Q. And where do you say you have a fracture? Can you please point to
25 it so we can see where you mean.
1 A. Here, on this part.
2 Q. Pointing to the left lower forearm near the wrist on the outside
3 aspect, towards the outside aspect of the left lower forearm.
4 Do you have any idea how it came to be recorded that you mentioned
5 only a small fracture on your right shoulder and nothing to do with your
6 left forearm?
7 A. The fracture is on my left arm, but the injury is on my left
8 shoulder --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: Right shoulder.
10 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I see the time. I'm very nearly done
11 and I recognise that I have gone over what you have --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you have not followed my invitation, and you
13 went even beyond what you indicated before. But before I give you an
14 opportunity to do so, let me -- one second, please.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar has inquired into possibilities to
17 finish, and we -- I'm not in a position anymore to ask such things, but I
18 do understand that the teams we need, if we could finish within one hour
19 from now on, that - and I think that should be possible; Mr. Di Fazio, I'm
20 also looking at you - then you would have another three, four minutes to
21 finish, Mr. Harvey, and then we could continue at this moment without a
22 break, but I do of course not know whether any of the other ...
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, Your Honour, I have another hearing
24 that's starting tomorrow. I have an appointment to see my client, which
25 had previously been set for this morning --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- and now has been set for this afternoon at 2.30.
3 I must see him --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we try to arrange it in such a way that
5 you are leaving the last 15 minutes and have done and perhaps --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: One would hope.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And that co-counsel could take over those 15 minutes.
8 Yes, Mr. Harvey, I'm really urging you now to finish very quickly.
9 I mean, a lot of discussions about small fractures, and yes, of course,
10 small and big fractures; fracture is a fracture, usually. But please
11 proceed and finish in a couple of minutes.
12 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, it's not the size of the fracture, it's
13 the location and, of course, the accuracy because --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. Mr. Harvey, I do understand that,
15 but, of course, you were wise enough not to further inquire into what the
16 witness's knowledge was of the size of the kitchen here, for example.
17 Well, there are -- of course, sometimes people use expressions which
18 shouldn't be taken literally by the meaning.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.
21 Q. Witness, you used the expression twice on Friday to describe
22 members or people who joined the KLA, you described them as arrogant. Is
23 that your view generally of people who were in -- who were in the KLA?
24 A. They were such against me.
25 Q. You spoke of your -- when you were asked about your own village
1 and whether your co-villagers supported or opposed the KLA, you
2 said: "Maybe some of the arrogant ones were mobilised." Now, these were
3 not people who were arrogant towards you. This is just a term that you
4 used to describe anybody who joins the KLA, isn't it?
5 A. Only the bad ones I call like that.
6 MR. HARVEY: I'd like if we could have P335 on the screen --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, I checked the -- both the sources of
8 arrogance here, and to say that the way in which you put the question was
9 properly reflecting the testimony of the witness last Friday is
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. HARVEY: Thank you. If Your Honour finds it questionable,
13 certainly in relation to what the witness said of his co-villagers, in my
14 submission, and I quoted that accurately --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Maybe some of the arrogant ones were, yes.
16 MR. HARVEY: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Some, yes. These others were arrogant as well so
18 that does not qualify KLA members, and earlier he said something, his own
19 arrogance compared to the arrogance of others. Please proceed.
20 MR. HARVEY:
21 Q. You see in front of you, Witness, a document that you were given
22 by Nazmi Brahimaj when you left Jabllanice. As you can see, it is signed
23 clearly with his name, and so from the 25th of July onwards you had no
24 difficulty knowing that Nazmi Brahimaj was one of the people in that camp.
25 Isn't that right?
1 A. I don't understand it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to explain it to you. What Mr. Harvey
3 tells you is the following. Looking at this document, where clearly the
4 name of Nazmi Brahimaj appears, you could have known on from the moment
5 that you received this document that the name of the person that issued
6 this document was Nazmi Brahimaj?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, you said that you learned about names
9 only later.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. During the last two weeks
11 when I was with Gani Brahimaj and I asked him about names and other things
12 that I was interested in, and he told me.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
14 MR. HARVEY:
15 Q. You were angry that they held on to your car, weren't you?
16 A. Of course, yes.
17 Q. That car had cost you -- I think you said 30.000 Swiss francs. Is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes, that's correct. When I bought it, it cost that.
20 Q. Our exchange rates vary, but would that have been about the
21 equivalent of about 45.000 American dollars, do you know, at that time?
22 A. I don't know what the exchange rate is with dollars.
23 Q. So you've described yourself as a poor farmer with a large family.
24 Is that -- well, first of all, do you accept that description, you're not
25 a wealthy man?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And did you buy that car in Switzerland?
3 A. No, here, in Prizren. My brothers sent me the money. They worked
4 abroad and they sent me the money, and then I bought the car.
5 Q. And you were also angry that the KLA held on to your revolver,
6 weren't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You were worried, weren't you, that if the Serb police inquired
9 where your licenced gun was, you could be in very serious trouble if you
10 had allowed that gun to fall into the hands of the KLA?
11 A. The Serb police did not say anything about it. They did not ask
12 me about it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, I gave you a couple of minutes. It's
14 really, now -- it's time for the last two questions.
15 MR. HARVEY:
16 Q. This document and the other one that Nazmi Brahimaj gave you were
17 documents that you specifically asked him for, weren't they?
18 A. No, they gave them to me themselves.
19 Q. Didn't you ask him for a document that you could show to your wife
20 and family and to the police, if need be, to explain where you had been
21 for the last six weeks?
22 A. I don't know. I did not ask for documents. They themselves gave
23 the documents to me. I just asked for the car and the revolver. They
24 also took away my shoes.
25 Q. Are you saying that you walked barefoot from Jabllanice?
1 A. When my father and my wife came towards the end of the detention
2 period, they brought me some clothes, because I was in the same clothes
3 for four weeks.
4 Q. I'm not going to spend time on it, but you did tell us on Friday
5 that: "Nazmi said that to me when he gave those documents to me because I
6 asked him to give me my documents and my wallet." That's right, you asked
7 him to give you your documents and your wallet; right?
8 A. I asked him for the documents, my ID, my driver's licence, my
9 wallet. He did not give me those. He just gave me these two documents.
10 I asked him to give me my car back and he said, No, and then I left. I
11 got those papers and I left.
12 Q. And before you left, you said --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, when I said two questions --
14 MR. HARVEY: This is my last question.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay then.
16 MR. HARVEY:
17 Q. And before you left you said to him that there will be bloodshed
18 because of that car. And what you're doing here today, sir, is carrying
19 out that promise, isn't it, that threat of bloodshed? As far as you're
20 concerned, there is a blood feud between you and the Brahimajs?
21 A. I never owed them anything.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Given Mr. Guy-Smith's difficulties, I'm going to
23 defer to him to cross-examine second, if Your Honour would permit.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 Then, Mr. Guy-Smith, it's up to you.
1 Witness 6, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we go into --
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- who is counsel for Mr. Balaj.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
6 Q. You were just asked a moment ago --
7 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH:
22 Q. With regard to that individual, when you were asked by the
23 investigator if you knew a person by such a name, you said that you did
24 not know the name and that you could never recall having heard it.
25 A. I don't know him. I can't remember.
1 Q. After you told the investigator that, which is the same thing that
2 you're telling us here today, you told the investigator that you had been
3 told that that person might have been a prisoner in the same KLA prison in
4 Jablanica, but that you could not recall his name ever being mentioned;
6 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
7 Q. [Microphone not activated]
8 When you say: "I don't know. I don't remember," is what you're
9 telling us now that you don't remember ever hearing this person's name
11 A. I can't remember at all.
12 Q. The investigator also showed you a photograph of the person who
13 we've discussed and asked you whether you'd ever remembered seeing this
14 person in Jablanica, and you responded: "After looking at the photograph
15 carefully, I must state that I do not remember seeing this person, not in
16 Jablanica, nor anyone else." Correct?
17 A. He was not in Jabllanice. I just saw him on the photograph and I
18 knew him from before. I never had any other contact with him. I had
19 never seen him in uniform.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... if we could have 65 ter.
21 You said that: "I just saw him on the photograph and I knew him
22 from before. I never had any other contact with him." You've never seen
23 him in uniform. Did you ever see him out of uniform in Jabllanice?
24 A. No, no, not at all.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Madam Registrar, could we please have 65 ter 00785
1 up on the screen.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what it is. Any need for private
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: It is a -- it is photo line-up, I believe it's
5 number would be 5.
6 JUDGE ORIE: 5.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: And it would be appended to the gentleman's
9 Q. During the time that you were shown photo-spreads, one of the
10 photo-spreads that you were shown is I believe the one that is in front of
11 you now. During that time you had the following to say about this
12 particular photo-spread.
13 "I've now been handed over photo line-up marked with number 5, and
14 after having a careful look at the photographs, I believe that the person
15 marked with number 3 is called" --
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we go into private session, please.
17 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH:
3 Q. You continue by stating: "I do not recognise anyone else. I have
4 signed the photo line-up to be attached my statement."
5 Do you stand by that, sir, that the individual that you recognise
6 in that photo line-up is possibly somebody who would be number 3?
7 A. Yes, yes. He is from my village, but now he lives in Gjakove.
8 Q. Thank you very much for your time, sir.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have no further questions.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 Mr. Emmerson, are you ready to --
12 MR. EMMERSON: I am.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, you'll now be cross-examined by
14 Mr. Emmerson, who's counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: My apologies, Mr. Emmerson.
16 In my haste I would like that marked for identification and
17 admitted as an exhibit.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is -- and does it need to be under seal
19 from what I --
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I believe so.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it has to be under seal, yes.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D114.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 Madam Registrar.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: And --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: And with --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: And with the Court's indulgence, and I've checked
7 with my client, if I and a couple of members could be excused at this
8 point in time. We do apologise, but I know that my client will be ably
9 represented, and he has no concerns in that regard whatsoever.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
13 Q. Witness 6, I'm going to ask you one or two questions on behalf of
14 Ramush Haradinaj. I know that you've answered a lot of questions today
15 and on Friday, and I'm going to take them, questions that I need to ask
16 you, relatively briefly.
17 First of all, I want, if I may, just to try and clarify some of
18 the dates in the sequence that you've given because on one or two
19 occasions you've given slightly different answers and I want to see if you
20 can help us just to understand which is more likely to be more accurate,
21 if possible. And I appreciate that there may be areas where it's
22 difficult for you to recall; and if that is the position, do please say
24 First of all, this morning Mr. Harvey put to you a document
25 recording an interview with the Serb authorities in which it had been
1 recorded that the date of your arrest was the 21st of June of 1998. And,
2 of course, the evidence that you've given to us is that you were arrested
3 or detained, rather, on the 13th of June. And you were asked by
4 Mr. Harvey this morning, page 10, line 10: "Can you explain that
6 And you responded: "Well, it's not too far back in time. I don't
7 think giving the wrong date is a big problem."
8 I just wanted to ask you: Which is the right date, the 13th, as
9 you gave in evidence; or the 21st, as was written apparently in the
10 Serbian document?
11 A. The 13th is the right date. It's wrong there in the Jagodine
13 Q. Thank you. Secondly, just to take another milestone in this
14 process that you've described, there was a period of time you've told us
15 when you were given a much greater degree of relative freedom and were
16 able to move about within the compound at Jabllanice. Now, most often
17 when you've described that time in your evidence to the Trial Chamber,
18 you've described it as having occurred about two weeks before the date of
19 your release, but on one or two occasions on the transcript you've
20 described it as having occurred a week and a half before your release. If
21 you can help us now, was it two weeks before your release or a week and a
22 half before your release?
23 A. About a week and a half. That was the time when I had more
24 freedom. That was also the time when my family came to visit me.
25 Q. Going back now to the first period of time then, so the first four
1 and a half weeks that you were detained, I just want to understand one
2 further date within that, if I can, please. You described an occasion
3 when for a short period there were four other people detained in the same
4 room with you, a Bosnian gentleman and three Montenegrins. And again,
5 most often when you've given evidence about that, you estimated that it
6 occurred roughly two weeks after you were first detained. But on one
7 occasion in your testimony you put it much later. You suggested it was
8 three and a half to four weeks after you were detained. Can you help us
9 now as to which is correct, approximately?
10 A. No, no, two weeks after. It's a mistake, because two weeks after
11 I had been there, these people came.
12 Q. And so for the sake of clarity, there's -- allowing for a day or
13 two of error there, that would mean that those individuals were there or
14 arrived there sometime around about the 27th of June, and left there
15 sometime around about the 30th of June. Does that sound right to you?
16 A. I never said any dates.
17 Q. No. I'm working the dates out from the fact that you said they
18 arrived two weeks after you were detained, which would make the 27th of
19 June as the date of their arrival, approximately, would it not?
20 A. They stayed there for about three days with me there, and this was
21 after I had been there for two weeks. So I can't give you the exact
23 Q. The rest of us can do the maths on that. I won't ask you further
24 in relation to that. Apart from those three days then, does it follow
25 that for the four and a half weeks between your arrival and the time when
1 you had greater relative freedom, there was only one person to your
2 knowledge who was being physically detained at Jabllanice; namely,
4 A. Only the one from Zahaq when they brought him.
5 Q. Yes. But that had occurred after you had a greater degree of
6 relative freedom, four and a half weeks after your detention, didn't it?
7 A. Yes, correct.
8 Q. Well, let me come to that gentleman now in a moment, if I may, the
9 man from Zahaq. You said in your evidence on a number of occasions that
10 he was only there for two days, and I just want to see if I can test that
11 out with you a little bit. Because you told us in answer to questions
12 from Mr. Harvey that he was the first of three men to arrive and you saw
13 him being removed from the boot of a car; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you said that on the next day, the following day, first Pal
16 Krasniqi arrived, and then a few hours later the man from Grabanica
17 arrived. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes, correct.
19 Q. And you also told us in your testimony on Friday that after there
20 had been an escape attempt, the man from Zahaq was taken to a hospital,
21 you thought it was in Gllogjan, but he was taken to a hospital and he was
22 taken to the hospital the day after the escape attempt occurred. That was
23 your recollection. Now, I'm just trying to understand how -- how all
24 that --
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. I'm just trying to understand how all that fits into two days.
2 Let's just trace it through, if we can, for a moment. On the first of the
3 days, the man from Zahaq arrives; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. [Microphone not activated]
6 Then on day two, the next day, the other two men arrive. Is that
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And was the escape attempt on the same day that they arrived or
10 was it a day or two after that?
11 A. On the same day, in the afternoon, after they were imprisoned, the
12 third person opened the window and they got out of that window, together
13 with Pal Krasniqi and the one from Zahaq. Both of them were beaten up.
14 They weren't able to open the window. It was the first one that opened
15 the window. That one left, escaped, and the others were caught.
16 Q. Just concentrating on dates, Witness 6, so you don't need to go
17 over again the details of what happened. So the escape attempt was on the
18 same day as the second two men arrived. Is that correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And so, for example, the man from Grabanica was only ever at
21 Jabllanice for a matter of hours between his arrival and his escape. Is
22 that right? Shall I put the question again? Is it --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. And how long after the escape attempt was it, then,
25 that the man from Zahaq ended up being taken off to hospital, as far as
1 you can recall?
2 A. One day after that, after they tried to flee.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I don't know if the
4 answer "yes" in line 24 is an answer, yes, to the first question or the
5 second question; namely, the question of hours or shall I put the question
7 MR. EMMERSON: I think it was, in fact, in answer to the first
8 question but I understand why Mr. Di Fazio seeks the clarification.
9 Q. I'm sorry, Witness 6, it's -- I just have to ask you the question
10 I asked you a moment ago because there's a bit of a confusion on the
11 transcript. Does it follow from your evidence, as you recall the event,
12 that the man from Grabanica was only at Jabllanice for a matter of hours
13 between his arrival and his escape, as far as you recall. Is that
15 A. They stayed there for a couple of hours, then through the window
16 they left, the three of them, but he was not beaten, so he was capable of
17 walking and leaving. But the two others were -- remained on the meadow.
18 They were too weak to walk. They were unable to flee with him.
19 Q. And the next day, the man from Zahaq, you think, was taken away to
20 the hospital. Is that right?
21 A. This is what I learned.
22 Q. I was just going to check that with you. You didn't see him being
23 taken away the next day, did you, to the hospital?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So might it, in fact, have been a day or two after that that he
1 went to the hospital?
2 A. I don't know. I didn't see him, but when I took bread to Pal
3 Krasniqi, he wasn't there anymore.
4 Q. And might that have been a day or two after the escape attempt
5 that you've described?
6 A. One day after.
7 Q. And from that point onwards, just so that we have the picture,
8 once again there was only one person in detention; namely, Pal Krasniqi.
9 Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You were still not free to leave, but to external appearances you
12 were wandering around the yard and washing the dishes, and so forth. Is
13 that right?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And just one final question on timing before I ask you one or two
16 other matters, just one final question on timing. Do you know how long it
17 was after you got your relative freedom that the man from Zahaq arrived?
18 A. One or two days after that. I can't be very precise.
19 Q. Thank you. What I want to do now is just to put one or two
20 passages to you, Witness 6, from, first of all, the witness statement that
21 you made in February and March 2004. That was the statement that you made
22 when you were shown some photographic line-ups, and you were shown a
23 line-up of photographs that included a photograph of Ramush Haradinaj. I
24 won't bother to pull it up on the screen, but I'm just going to read to
25 you the passage from the witness statement that you have signed and ask
1 you to confirm that it is correct. Having been shown the photograph,
2 which was a line-up including a photograph of Mr. Haradinaj, you said
3 this, and I'm quoting from your statement, paragraph 3: "I can identify
4 Ramush Haradinaj, while has face has become familiar to me after the war
5 from several newspaper articles and television programmes. I did not know
6 him from the time of the war and cannot remember seeing him in the KLA
7 prison in Jablanica."
8 I'll just ask you, please, to confirm that that is a correct
9 statement of your evidence.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Could we please pull up 65 -- could we please pull
13 up 65 ter number 788. And this is a photograph that will need to come up
14 without being shown to the public -- and we ought to go into private
15 session in order to deal with it.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 5393-5396 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
4 Mr. Di Fazio.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you.
6 Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
7 Q. You were asked about the gentleman earlier today who was held in
8 custody with you and beaten up, and you said that he was a Bosnian and
9 that he worked for -- I just -- oh, yes. And you were asked by
10 Mr. Harvey: "How did you find out that the Bosnian worked at Elektro in
11 Decani, did you discuss that with him?"
12 And your answer was: "The soldiers told you. You have worked for
13 Serbia in Elektrokosova. I didn't speak with him about that, because he
14 spoke almost no Albanian."
15 Can you shed any more light on that, please? Can you tell us
16 exactly what the soldiers said to that man about his working for Serbia?
17 That's what I want to know. Can you tell us what you overheard?
18 A. While they were beating him up, they were telling him that, You
19 are working for Serbia, you are working in Elektrokosova, and you are
20 interrupting the power-supply, while the KLA were beating him.
21 Q. Thank you. Yes, thank you. And you also said in evidence today
22 in answer to questions from Mr. Harvey this. You -- you were asked: "You
23 told us" -- you were asked:
24 "Q. You told us yesterday you were never given any reason for why
25 you were being beaten. Do you stand by that?"
1 You said -- you answered: "No.
2 "Q. Did they never ask you any questions?"
3 And you answered: "Yes, they did answer questions. They have
4 told me, You have stayed in the company of Serbs because they themselves
5 stayed with Serbs day and night and they accused me of staying with Serbs.
6 I was a farmer."
7 Now, I'm not interested in what you were in reality. I want to
8 know what they were saying to you about you staying in the company of
9 Serbs and who said that to you.
10 A. Lahi and Nazmi; other soldiers as well. They took the goods from
11 Serbia. They took drinks foodstuffs in Peje. Lahi and -- he had their
12 shop, their food shop -- Nazmi, and they accused me of staying with Serbs,
13 while they themselves dealt with the Serbs during the war.
14 Q. Okay. That's maybe what they did, but I want to know what the
15 accusation against you was that was coming, as you say, from Nazmi and
16 Lahi. What does it mean? Explain to the Trial Chamber so they can have
17 an understanding of this. What does the accusation, You are staying with
18 the Serbs, mean or at least how did you understand it?
19 A. It was an accusation made of me, to kill me and to get away my car
20 because, as I said, it was an expensive car which the KLA wanted to take
21 away from me, which they did. It cost 30.000 francs, and they -- because
22 I know that they killed many other persons --
23 Q. Okay --
24 A. -- three people with their wives, they are disappeared to this
1 Q. Okay. That might be so, but just concentrate on the question --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, if I could assist you.
3 Witness 6, I think what Mr. Di Fazio would really like to know is,
4 when they said to you that you stayed with the Serbs, that he wants to
5 know whether the allegation was that you socialised with them or that you
6 did business with them or that you supported their armed forces or police
7 forces. What -- how did you understand what was -- what you are blamed
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. They know. I was a
10 mere farmer and I had nothing to do with them, neither with the police nor
11 with the army. They know why they blamed me for, because they are from
12 Jabllanice; (redacted)
13 JUDGE ORIE: But, just, for example, could it be that where you
14 had a photograph with you and someone, a retired police officer in
15 uniform, would that be the kind of things that would blame you for, or did
16 they give any further specifics, or did they just say you stayed with the
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of that photo that I was
19 with that other person, they went to kidnap him as well, they went up to
20 his home, but this is a normal thing to have a photo with someone. Now I
21 have a photo with the KFOR Italians. I don't think that is of any
22 importance. It's a sign of goodwill.
23 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. HARVEY: I'm sorry, I only rise to point out we need a
1 redaction at 116, line 12.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's -- it's already -- yes.
3 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks.
5 Q. Witness, I'm not asking you if anything that they said about you
6 is true or not. I'm not asking you that and you've told us already, and
7 we've heard you loud and clear. Okay. So I'm not asking you about
8 anything that they said to you is true. What I'm asking is simply this:
9 The -- when it was said to you that you were staying with the Serbs - now,
10 forget if it's true or not, I'm not interested - but what I want to know
11 is: How did you understand that allegation? What is it that you were
12 supposed to be doing? How did you understand that?
13 A. That night when we arrived there, they asked such questions, then
14 they continued to torture me. And then they, the soldiers, came and told
15 me, You are a spy of Serbia. But I was not considered as an Albanian for
16 them, and even now they don't consider me as an Albanian.
17 Q. Okay. And what precisely did they say to you about you being a
18 spy of Serbia? Can you recall any more detail?
19 A. They just said -- they were kind of trying to make fun of me. I
20 don't know why.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I know that there are a few, not many,
22 a few questions from the Bench. How much --
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I think that I've gone as far as I need to on this.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Then ...
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hoepfel has one or more questions to you.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please, may I ask you, the following. In the room
6 where you were detained after the first 24 hours, how much light did you
7 actually have there and for how many hours about on an average day?
8 A. There was no sufficient light there because it was -- the window
9 was boarded up. Through the cracks of the planks you could see little
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Any electricity or other source of light?
12 A. There was electricity, but no bulb, light-bulb; we were in dark.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Now, my next question relates to your
14 health. You mentioned problems with your kidneys and lungs, which you had
15 after your release from this detention. Let me ask you this: First, can
16 you briefly describe these problems and how they were caused?
17 A. They were caused when I was in Jabllanice, because before that I
18 didn't have any health problems.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can you give a brief description.
20 A. I have body pains all over my body, in my arms, in my legs, in my
21 lungs, in the kidney; everywhere, as I said, I feel pain.
22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So does this still exist?
23 A. Yes, yes. I take medication.
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I have no further questions for you.
1 Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need for further
2 questions to the witness?
3 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, just one point that --
4 JUDGE ORIE: One --
5 MR. HARVEY: -- arises out of what Mr. Di Fazio asked, which was --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. HARVEY: -- this is the first time the witness has used the
8 word spy and mentioned that he was being accused of being a spy.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:
11 Q. The question is this, Witness 6: As you sit here today you are
12 very concerned that people back home in Kosovo should not think of you as
13 a spy for Serbia. Isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes, of course, because they think that I was a spy but I was
15 never a spy. I was interested only in my own affairs.
16 Q. And it is partly because of that motivation that you have told
17 lies about Lahi Brahimaj in this court, isn't it?
18 A. I didn't tell any lies. I have facts to prove what I'm saying.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.
20 Witness 6, this concludes your evidence in this court. I'd like
21 to thank you for coming to The Hague and to testify; that is, to give
22 answers to the questions put to you by both the parties and the Bench, and
23 I wish you a safe trip home again. If you wait for a second so that the
24 curtains can be down if you leave the courtroom.
25 No, let's wait until we have adjourned, Mr. Usher.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something to you,
2 Your Honour?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if it is not in addition to your evidence and if
4 it's not comments, then say something. But we are a bit in a hurry. Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a question. The tortures I
6 was subjected to, the car I was stolen [as interpreted], what should I do
7 to have compensation for what I went through during the war? Should I
8 address you or somewhere else?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, it might be disappointing for you, but at
10 this moment you can't address us on this matter. And if that would be any
11 different, such as we have something in the Rules about return of goods,
12 et cetera, but if that would not be true for the full extent, then you'll
13 hear, but not from this Bench, but others, perhaps the Registrar or the
14 Victims and Witnesses Section may have heard about it, and at least it's
15 on the record now that what you are seeking, among other matters, is that
16 what you consider to be your property to be returned to you. That is
17 clearly understood.
18 So therefore, again, I thank you again.
19 Before we adjourn, one -- Mr. Di Fazio, I haven't heard anything
20 about the medical report anymore, about interpreting that.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: I -- on Friday I asked that the matter be sent
22 immediately and -- to the relevant -- CLSS for translation.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: And further, that the matter be treated with the
25 utmost urgency.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: I know I've seen e-mails to the effect that those
3 instructions were carried out, and I hope it will be ready as soon as
5 JUDGE ORIE: The problem was not the translation but the
6 legibility of the document, so therefore I don't know -- could I just draw
7 the attention. I think I have drawn the attention of the parties to one
8 single line where I said that far more would be legible than it appears on
9 the basis of --
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: I started deciphering already on Friday, ST being
12 status, post being after. I noticed meanwhile that wherever this doctor
13 intends to write an A in clearly recognisable words, it very much looks
14 like an O. So therefore what looks like frokturum might well be
15 frakturum, and the next word then appears is -- reads like ulnoe,
16 u-l-n-o-e, if you take, however, the O to be an A, which we find very
17 often in this handwriting. It's the Latin genitive word for one of the
18 bones in the lower arm. Sinistri means to the left. So I think even
19 without having a lot of experts, I think a bit of common sense and a bit
20 of human experience might lead the parties to some common understanding
21 that this report might give some support to a fracture of the left lower
22 arm, at least one of the bones of that arm. I don't want to discuss it at
23 this moment, but since the thoughts came into my mind, I think for reasons
24 of transparency, it might be good that the parties are aware that these, I
25 would say, almost notorious facts, such as that ulna is the left
1 underarm -- one of the bones of the underarm, that's there on the minds
2 of the Bench.
3 We adjourn until --
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn -- we adjourn until Tuesday, the 5th of
6 June, Courtroom III, 9.00 in the morning, but not until having thanked
7 profoundly interpreters and technicians and transcribers and everyone who
8 assisted us in making it possible to finish this witness today.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.49 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of
11 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.