1 Thursday, 13 September 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor
9 versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Mr. Emmerson, the Chamber was informed that you would like to
12 address the Chamber.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Two matters briefly, if I may. The first I can
14 deal with in open session, the second in private session.
15 And as far as open session is concerned, I wanted, if I may, to
16 place on the record a communication that we received from the Prosecution
17 concerning the upcoming witness. I don't know whether the Trial Chamber
18 has been informed about certain Rule 70 material --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Trial Chamber has been informed that there's
20 still some disclosure to be done but it's Rule 70 material, and therefore
21 permission has not been obtained yet.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, when we received the e-mail, the indication
23 was that strenuous efforts were being made overnight. I don't imagine,
24 since I've heard nothing further, that those efforts have yet born fruit,
25 but it also, I think, ought to be placed on the record, that there is
1 potentially Rule 68 information of which the Defence are currently
3 The second matter is a matter I should raise in private session --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we move into private session -- Mr. Re.
5 MR. RE: Just in relation to that matter. The situation to put it
6 on the record to respond to Mr. Emmerson is that on the 10th, which I
7 think is Monday, we discovered in our searches there is a document from
8 the ECMM which is potentially Rule 68. We attempted to provide -- to
9 obtain the permission of the ECMM on Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday,
10 unsuccessfully because the person dealing with requests is absent --
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, we're having a failure of translation
12 or communication or something.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Has it been restored, Mr. Brahimaj? I see you're nodding yes.
15 Mr. Balaj -- not yet? Then we should. Yes, I see Mr. Balaj also
16 nodding yes, Mr. Haradinaj as well.
17 MR. RE: We are making --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Have you missed -- have the accused missed part of
19 what was said, because then I'd invite Mr. Re to repeat it.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think that would be prudent.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Re, if you would please restart.
22 MR. RE: I'll restart. On Monday, the 10th, we discovered in our
23 searches of the documents, there was a document from the ECMM which was
24 potentially Rule 68. We attempted to obtain the permission of the ECMM on
25 Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday; we were unsuccessful mainly because the
1 person dealing with the requests was away. We are attempting to find
2 someone else who can deal with it today. Our view is that it doesn't
3 impede the ability of the Defence to cross-examine. It's a severable
4 matter, and cross-examination could commence, in our view, although we
5 can't speak for the Defence, but we would not object to any application
6 from the Defence to recall the witness if they deem it necessary once they
7 receive the document. But we hope to rectify that this morning, we hope
8 to. All I can do is apologise for this late disclosure, but we only found
9 it on Monday and have taken all steps we could since finding it, including
10 notifying the Defence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: When was the Defence notified that it was found
12 although no permission had yet been obtained?
13 MR. RE: It was 7.00 last night I think after we exhausted all
14 attempts yesterday to obtain provider clearance.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Just a question, if you find such material, even if you have not
17 obtained yet the approval to disclose it, do you consider it better to
18 wait until that approval has been obtained or already to inform the
19 Defence about the result of the search and about the fact that you have
20 sought but not yet obtained permission to disclose that material? So is
21 it something that you consider was better to wait until Wednesday evening
22 7.00, or whether you should have notified the Defence already at Monday?
23 MR. RE: It's actually the former. All I can say is that when it
24 was -- when I found out about it, I spoke to -- I immediately notified the
25 Defence; that's all I can say. I do agree that we should have done it
1 earlier, but I can't -- I can't change what happened. But in the future
2 if we discover it, I will inform the Defence that there is a document
3 we're seeking clearance of first.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Then a matter to be raised in private session.
6 Mr. Registrar, we move into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 8401-8403 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
16 MR. EMMERSON: Whilst the preparations are made, may I just
17 mention one other very brief administrative matter. From decisions
18 between the parties, there's a certain degree of uncertainty as to the
19 order of witnesses for next week.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. EMMERSON: And might we invite the Prosecution to use their
22 best endeavours during the course of this morning to be in a position to
23 return to the Chamber before the end of the day today and to clarify the
24 position as far as is possible to do so.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- the Chamber was informed that the
1 Prosecution has quite some problems with -- for a minor part for technical
2 reasons, for another part on more varying reasons, but that the
3 Prosecution is working hard to come with a proposed schedule for next week
4 as soon as they can. I add to that whereas sometimes -- no, I add to that
5 that -- I would say for 80 or 90 per cent the problems may well be beyond
6 the control of the OTP which should be on the record as well.
7 MR. EMMERSON: It's simply a question of being in a position to
8 prepare for the following week.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might add, I echo Mr. Emmerson's requests.
12 It's a matter of some critical concern to me as a result of the fact that
13 next week is a week, as I think we all know, we will be dark. And I had
14 made plans to be travelling that week; however, I've been informed by the
15 Appeals Chamber my attendance might be necessary right in the middle of
16 the week for purposes of a potential judgement. That date is not definite
17 but is highly likely to be the 27th --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: So I'm trying to make arrangements, if we're not
20 going to be sitting next week, I do need to know that, and the travelling
21 arrangements I would be attempting to make deal directly with this case.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You say in view of the week of after that?
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right, precisely.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that Mr. Re will inform us as soon as he
25 resolves these problems.
1 MR. TROOP: Your Honour, one further matter which I'd like to
2 raise and that relates to an issue of disclosure. Yesterday at about ten
3 minutes to 6.00 the Prosecution informed us that there was a disclosure
4 batch in our lockers relating to the witness who is due to testify this
5 morning. Clearly that creates some problems for Defence when disclosure
6 is made at a late stage not least in relation to the uploading of material
7 which may be necessary for cross-examination into e-court.
8 The documents themselves concern the Serb police file relating to
9 incidents which relate to this witness. And perhaps I could just have a
10 clarification from the Prosecution as to when these materials came into
11 their possession and why they were disclosed so late, perhaps with the
12 assurance that it won't happen again.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, could you -- well, let's do it one by one.
14 First seek the information and not yet say that if that -- that's
15 suggestive, not necessary at this moment, Mr. Troop.
16 Mr. Re.
17 MR. RE: We found the documents. Ms. Gustafson who is taking the
18 next witness tells me when we were doing a witness search on the victims,
19 it was either Monday or Tuesday, we had them sent for translation
20 immediately. We received the translations at 5.00 last night. All stops
21 were pulled to ensure we had the translations, and we got them to the
22 Defence as soon as we had the translations, which unfortunately was only
23 the night before. That's -- that's just the best we can do in these
24 circumstances. If there's a glitch in the -- going to their lockers and
25 they don't have it, just inform us and we'll try to copy the documents and
1 give them to you in hard copy.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It's not exactly an answer to the question Mr. Troop
3 put to you. The question was since when do you have it in your
4 possession. Your answer focuses on when you identified them as relevant
5 material in relation to the next witness to appear.
6 MR. RE: I can't answer that. I can get back to you. I --
7 JUDGE ORIE: But let's try to keep matters simple. Is it -- it is
8 not your position that you only recently obtained possession of these
9 documents, that you received them only -- well, let's say one or two weeks
11 MR. RE: I know we received recently, that is, within the last few
12 months, an enormous collection of thousands and thousands Serbian
13 investigation files which have been put on the EDS for the Defence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. RE: I don't know if they were part of those. I will make the
16 relevant inquiries.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that. And if you receive a lot of
18 material, even if it's two or three or four months ago then it takes some
19 time to go through it.
20 Mr. Guy-Smith.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might be of some assistance to Mr. Re, if he
22 checks the ERN numbers it usually gives an indication of when they came
23 into his possession.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- the matter is sufficiently on the
25 record at this moment. We are in open session. Then I'll first in open
1 session give the decision on the request for protective measures for the
2 next witness to appear, that is, a witnesses assigned pseudonym 66. The
3 request for protective measures for this witness was filed on the 12th of
4 September. The request is for the protective measures of face distortion
5 and assignment of a pseudonym. The Defence orally has informed the
6 Chamber that it does not object to granting the protective measures;
7 although, in the view of three Defence teams, it should be done only on
8 the basis of the paragraph 6 of the declaration of Roel Versonnen which is
9 a confidential annex to the request.
10 The Chamber grants the protective measures as requested for the
11 following reasons, that family members still live in Kosovo, that the
12 expected content of the testimony may well antagonise others, and that
13 there is, as has been agreed upon between the parties, an unstable
14 situation in the area. This is, in short, the reasons why the Chamber
15 grants the protective measures.
16 Then could the curtains be pulled down so that the witness can
17 enter the courtroom.
18 Mr. Re.
19 MR. RE: Just while the administrative arrangements are being
20 made, Ms. Gustafson will take the witness. There is one matter I maybe
21 should have mentioned earlier in relation to the Rule 70 /Rule 68
22 document. The information does not contradict this witness, which is why
23 in our submission the cross-examination can continue. It relates to what
24 happened to victims or what was alleged to have happened to them after
25 this witness last saw them. So that is why, in our submission, the
1 cross-examination can proceed and the witness could be recalled.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore the information, as you say, adds to the
3 testimony of the witness but does not directly relate to what the witness
4 himself could testify about?
5 MR. RE: No, it doesn't add to the testimony of the witness. The
6 witness says, I last saw the victims in this spot, that piece of
7 information which is supposed to come from other people says the victims
8 were seen at a later time somewhere else.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, with that in mind --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- I take it there will be some care in leading
13 any hearsay in terms of anything that goes outside the direct observations
14 of this witness.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've got no idea whether the witness is aware
16 of such observations by others, whether it was ever revealed to him.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Neither do I.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No it's always -- it's always good to keep each other
19 sharp, isn't it, Mr. Guy-Smith.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, curtains can be pulled up again.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness 66. Can you hear me in a
24 language you understand?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 66, I call you Witness 66 because the Chamber
2 has decided that protective measures are granted. Protective measures
3 meaning in your case that we'll not use your own name so that the outside
4 world will not know your identity; and second, that they will not see your
5 face on the screen. They will not be able to recognise your face.
6 Nevertheless, the public can hear your testimony, so the content of your
8 Witness 66, before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of
9 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you
10 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The
11 text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. Would you please make this
12 solemn declaration.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, if you could read the declaration to
14 the witness, I think that would --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I have not -- you -- I will speak the words,
16 if you would repeat them. I solemnly declare ...
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm illiterate.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the reason why I'm giving you the content
19 orally. If you repeat my words in small portions, then that's the way you
20 will give your solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole
21 truth, and nothing but the truth. So please repeat my words.
22 I solemnly declare ...
1 JUDGE ORIE: I must interrupt you. Later questions will be put to
2 you about the content of your story, but before we start doing so, there
3 is a rule which says that a witness before giving testimony should
4 solemnly declare that he will speak the truth, and there is a special
5 formula for that.
6 Now, I'm going to say these words and I invite you to repeat those
7 words. After we've done that, I'll invite you to sit down and then
8 questions will be put to you on the substance of your testimony. But we
9 first would like to hear from your mouth the words of this formula. So
10 I'll speak them -- I'll pronounce them and invite you to repeat them.
11 I solemnly declare ...
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm -- don't really understand that
13 well. Perhaps somebody could come over here to assist me.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'll try to explain to you again. What a witness
15 should say at the beginning of his testimony is the following. He should
16 say: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and
17 nothing but the truth. Now, we'd like to hear this solemn declaration
18 from you; and therefore, I split it into small parts and I invite you to
19 repeat those words so that after we've done that then questions will be
20 put to you. So could we start with this solemn declaration split up in
21 small parts, and that you repeat the words I speak.
22 I solemnly declare ...
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare ...
24 JUDGE ORIE: ... That I will speak the truth ...
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will -- that I will speak the
2 JUDGE ORIE: ... The whole truth ...
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the whole truth.
4 JUDGE ORIE: ... And nothing but the truth.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat those last few words: And
7 nothing but the truth.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will, nothing but the truth.
9 Nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please be seated. You will first be
11 examined by Ms. Gustafson. She will put the questions to you. Try to
12 carefully listen to the questions and to focus your answer on the
13 questions put to you. I do understand that you would like to say more,
14 but the next questions then of Ms. Gustafson will guide you in giving
15 further details. So carefully listen to her.
16 Ms. Gustafson.
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we move into
18 private session?
19 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 8413-8417 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: Before we go in --
19 JUDGE ORIE: At this time I see on the screen, so technically most
20 likely we are in open session. If you would like to return to private
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We return to private session.
24 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness 66, was there a mill in the village of Grabanica?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. TROOP: Your Honour, can I ask Ms. Gustafson to be a little
18 more careful with her leading questions. That does seem to suggest an
19 answer to the witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson will refrain from leading, but this
21 question -- I take this as a general reminder. The question as such, to
22 ask whether there was a grocery shop, or whether there was a -- or to ask
23 him to describe all the shops or all the commercial institutions in the
24 village would be a bit of --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no shops.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. TROOP: I understand that, Your Honour, but there are
3 particular reasons for care in relation to leading, both in relation to
4 destinations and also in relation to particular objects.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. TROOP: And that's why I raised that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm aware of that. I think I support you in general
8 terms but also have indicated that sometimes the fear for leading
9 questions reach a level which -- but I do understand that you have special
10 concerns here and Ms. Gustafson is now aware of that as well.
11 Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.
13 Q. Did you ever go to the mill in Grabanica in early 1998?
14 A. Yes, yes, I went there all the time in 1996.
15 Q. You said you went there all the time in 1996. Did you go there
16 any time after 1996?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, not after that, no.
19 MR. TROOP: Your Honour, I'm just pointing out that the witness
20 has already said that he didn't go to that particular village in 1998.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Where did he -- let me just check. Well, we are then
22 talking about March, April, May, no specific dates, whether he would go
23 there. And I did not understand this answer in such strict terms, but
24 let's try to see whether we can hear the evidence.
25 Ms. Gustafson.
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.
2 Q. Witness 66, do you remember the last time you went to the mill in
4 A. I went there non-stop between 1992 and 1996.
5 Q. So the last time you went to the mill in Grabanica was in 1996; is
6 that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know anything about the owner of the mill?
9 A. No. I know him by sight because I went there all the time, but I
10 don't know his first or last names.
11 Q. Do you know his ethnicity?
12 A. Albanian.
13 Q. What route did you take when you went to the mill?
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I have no more questions on that
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then if that's the case, then we remain in open
23 Ms. Gustafson, by the way, page 14 where you have drawn my
24 attention to was private session; however, page 12 was redacted. Please
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Witness, when was the last time you saw (redacted)? And I'd like
3 to remind you not to mention his name.
4 A. On the 19th of May, 1998, that was the last time I saw him.
5 Q. And what was he doing when you last saw him?
6 A. He was grinding corn and then he placed it in a sack. He was
7 milling the corn, and then he went on -- he went on to the mill to do
9 Q. And where was this that you saw him, was this in your village?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And without mentioning any names, can you tell the Trial Chamber
12 whether (redacted) was alone or whether he was with someone or some
14 A. It was his mother and father, myself and him that prepared the
15 corn, placed it in a sack, in order for him to go to the mill later on to
16 have it milled.
17 Q. And did you see him when he was heading to the mill after he
18 prepared the corn and put it in a sack?
19 A. Yes, yes, yes.
20 Q. And as he was heading to the mill, was he alone or was he with
21 some person or some people?
22 A. My relative and a friend of mine was with him. There were three
23 of them therefore, the Serb friend.
24 Q. And the relative that he was with, was that your Roma friend?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. And you said the date was the 19th of May. How do you know the
2 date, is that something you remember yourself or did someone tell you the
4 A. No, no. My sister told me that six months ago about the 19th of
5 May, 1998.
6 Q. And approximately what time of day was it when you saw these three
7 men going to the mill?
8 A. It was a Tuesday.
9 Q. What was the time of day? Was it morning? Noon? Afternoon?
11 A. No, no. It was at 9.30 in the morning.
12 Q. And how were they going to the mill? What was their method of
14 A. With a horse-cart.
15 Q. Whose horse-cart was it?
16 A. It belonged to my relative.
17 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who that relative was without
18 mentioning that person's name?
19 A. He was my relative, (redacted).
20 Q. Did the cart belong to any of the three people who were in it at
21 that time or was it a different (redacted)?
22 A. No, no. It belonged to (redacted), the horse-cart and the horse.
23 Q. (redacted) who was in the cart at the time, (redacted)?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Thank you. And when did you expect them to return from the mill?
1 How long did you expect them to be gone?
2 A. Normally it would have taken them two hours. It's not that far
3 from our home, some 3 and a half kilometres, but they didn't come back.
4 Q. How did you find out that they didn't come back?
5 A. When my sister and aunt went over there to inquire after them,
6 they returned. They told us that they were missing, and it was some
7 Albanians who they met who told them that they never saw them arrive in
8 their village.
9 Q. Okay. You said your sister and aunt went over there to inquire
10 after them. When you say "over there," what are you referring to, where
11 did they go?
12 A. They went to the Grabanica village.
13 Q. And when did they go, was this is the same day that the three went
14 missing or was it a later day?
15 A. That afternoon, that afternoon.
16 Q. And you said: "They came back and told us that they were missing,
17 and it was some Albanians who they met who told them that they never saw
18 them arrive in their village."
19 Did your sister and your aunt tell you anything else --
20 A. Right, right.
21 Q. Did your sister and your aunt give you any other details about
22 what was said to them or what they did?
23 A. Yes. My sister and aunt were stopped and told to show their IDs.
24 They put their names on a list in a register.
25 Q. Who stopped them and put their names on a list in a register, did
1 they tell you?
2 A. Albanian people, ethnic Albanians.
3 Q. You said your sister and your aunt went to the -- to Grabanica
4 village. Is there any particular reason that none of the men in your
5 family went?
6 A. Our people had told us -- the first time my sister and aunt
7 returned we went to the police, and there at the police they told us that
8 only women should go to make any inquiries; men should not go because men
9 would be kept there.
10 Q. Did your aunt and your sister tell you whether or not the people
11 who stopped them and put their names in a register were armed?
12 A. Yes, yes. There were three or four of them. It was at a place
13 where there was a little graveyard on the left and the schoolhouse on the
14 right. These men came with semi-automatic weapons and told them, Show us
15 whatever IDs you have. Only my sister had a proper ID; my aunt didn't
16 have one. They took their IDs. They put their names on the list and told
17 my aunt and sister to go to the miller and ask about (redacted). They
18 didn't find the relatives there. They returned, and these men told them
19 not to speak about having met them. My sister said, I am not interested
20 in anything except finding my brother; and the men said, Go away now and
21 don't reveal to anyone where our location is.
22 Q. Did your sister and your aunt tell you if they managed to speak
23 with the miller when they went to the mill?
24 A. They did go to the mill, but nobody was there, none of the people
25 who worked there.
1 Q. After your aunt --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Troop.
3 MR. TROOP: Your Honour, I hate to interrupt, and I note your
4 point you made. As we're dealing with hearsay from two separate sources,
5 perhaps we could clarify which of the two provide which information.
6 JUDGE ORIE: To seek specifics, Ms. Gustafson.
7 Please proceed.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON:
9 Q. Witness 66, you've told the Trial Chamber about what your sister
10 and your aunt told you when they returned from Grabanica. Do you remember
11 what your sister said and what your aunt said? First of all, do you
12 remember what your sister said, what your sister told you?
13 A. My sister said, it was on the 20th May, 1998, when they left
14 around 12.00 to Grabanica village to see what had happened to the kids.
15 There were around 40 or 50 people there, half of them in civilian
16 clothing, another half uniformed. They cocked their guns, three or four
17 of them, and said, Let's kill her. Others said, What's the use? Don't
18 kill them. Go away, they said to them. And when they started going on
19 their way, one of those men who was a bit older than the rest came up to
20 them and said, Go and report your missing children to Drsnik in Klina
21 municipality. And if we see them, we'll let you know.
22 Q. And do you remember specifically anything that your aunt said when
23 she returned, when she --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, there's a -- there seems to be a risk
25 of confusion.
1 Witness 66, you told us about -- would you please wait for a
2 second. You told us about two episodes, the first where your sister and
3 your aunt were stopped, were asked to show their IDs, and registered; and
4 now you're talking about what I understand to be another episode, that is,
5 that your sister told you about meeting 40 to 50 people. Now, I'd like to
6 take you back -- one second. One second.
7 Is it correct that these are two different episodes?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One happened on the 19th, another on
9 the 20th. The first time they went, that was around 2.00 or 3.00 p.m.
10 When my sister and aunt went to Grabanica village. They were stopped on
11 that occasion.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, what --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And what they told me is --
14 JUDGE ORIE: What I'd like to know about this first episode on the
15 19th, your sister and your aunt went there. Now, who did tell you about
16 being stopped, asked for IDs, was it your sister, was it your aunt, or was
17 it your sister and your aunt together?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both of them told me that story.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Did they -- did the one tell part of the story and
20 did the other add to that, or did they both tell the whole story, so
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They went together and they told me.
23 All of us sat together and they were telling their story to all of us.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So bits and pieces, your sister bits and
25 pieces, your aunt, is that how we to have understand they reported?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, this second episode when you are talking
3 about your sister, was your sister then alone when she met these 40, 50
4 people who said that she should go elsewhere to report?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was on the 20th. My sister
6 went, my aunt went, my brother-in-law, and my uncle. They went to the
7 same village to make inquiries. They were stopped. They were told, Don't
8 come here anymore to reveal our location. Get lost. They cocked their
9 guns at them and wanted to kill them.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Ms. Gustafson will further -- will put further
11 questions to you in relation to how this was exactly reported to you upon
12 their return.
13 Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you for that clarification, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness, you just told the Trial Chamber that the next day, the
16 day after the three went missing, your sister, your aunt, your
17 brother-in-law, and your uncle went back to Grabanica. They were told to
18 get lost. Did they then return to your village?
19 A. Yes, everyone in our village.
20 Q. And when they returned, did they tell you what happened?
21 A. When they came home, they told us the story of what they were --
22 had been told.
23 Q. And when they told you the story, was that all of them together at
24 the same time telling you the story or did you speak to them separately?
25 A. They were talking amongst themselves, and I was there listening.
1 Q. And would you be able to remember now who said what precisely or
3 A. Well, they were talking amongst themselves, and I heard the whole
5 Q. And when they told you what had happened, did anyone say anything
6 about being told by anyone they had seen in Grabanica anything about the
7 fate of the three missing men? In other words, had they been told
8 anything about what might have happened to the three men?
9 A. They told them, Your children had not been to our village. Go
10 home, otherwise we'll kill you.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you ever see the cart that the three men were in
12 when they left the village for Grabanica at any later point?
13 A. Yes. I was there when I was seeing them off. After they left, I
14 set the cows out to graze.
15 Q. And after you saw them off, at any later point in time, did you
16 ever see that cart again?
17 A. Three or four days later, from Zajmovo village, a cart went
18 transporting corn and there were three of them Albanians, it was a
19 Thursday or a Friday, from the Prline village, a cart came towards our
20 house and there were Albanians inside, one of them 7 to 8 years old, one
21 was 10 years old. Mom and I were going shopping to Klina, but we
22 recognised the horse from afar. I got hold of those Albanians. We found
23 some policemen who were passing by, and I told the police that we had
24 family missing. I explained the situation. They took those Albanians to
25 the police station in Klina, and the children explained that this cart,
1 horse-drawn cart, was -- just happened to be around their house and they
2 got hold of it to play with.
3 Q. Thank you. You said your -- "Mom and I were going shopping to
4 Klina." Was it on the way to Klina that you saw the cart with the three
5 Albanian boys in it?
6 A. Yes. They were going from Zajmovo village towards our house. The
7 horse was on that road and the children were playing with the horse. I
8 got hold of the kids, and then I stopped the policeman when I found them
9 passing by.
10 Q. And how did you know that it was the same cart?
11 A. I recognised the horse and the white sack of corn.
12 Q. You said that the children explained that this cart just happened
13 to be around their house, and they got ahold of it to play with. Is this
14 something the children told you themselves or is this something you heard
15 from the police or from someone else?
16 A. No. The police explained that to me later. I just took the kids
17 by the arm, gave them to the police, and the police later explained what
18 the kids had said.
19 Q. And you said: "The kids had said that the cart just happened to
20 be around their house." Did the police tell you where the children lived?
21 A. Yes. They lived in Prline village, Prline village, Klina
23 Q. And did the -- did the police tell you anything about whether the
24 children had found the cart with -- whether anyone had been driving the
25 cart when the children found it or whether it had no driver at that time?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the kids explained to the police
3 that the cart was just going by their house. They stopped it and the kids
4 played with it.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON:
6 Q. And was the cart returned to you?
7 A. Yes, yes. The police later returned the cart to us and said, Take
8 it home.
9 Q. Now, you've said that the last time you saw (redacted) was the
10 day he left for the mill together with your Roma friend and your Serb
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. Was that also the last time you saw your Roma friend and your Serb
15 A. Yes, it was.
16 Q. And to your knowledge are all three of the men -- boys/men still
17 missing now?
18 A. We never heard of them again.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd just like to go back and ask you a few
20 questions about the situation in your village around the time that the
21 three men went missing. On the day that they left for Grabanica, was
22 there any shelling in the area?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, military operations are sometimes
24 documented elsewhere. I've got no idea whether there's any risk in
25 there. If you are just as unaware as I am, out of an abundance of
1 caution, we should go into private session. If you are satisfied,
2 however, that the military situation could not identify the village, then
3 please proceed in open session.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: To my knowledge, it won't, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.
7 Q. Witness 66, my question was: On the day that the three men went
8 missing, was there any shelling in the area?
9 A. About four or five days later in their [Realtime transcript read
10 in error "the"] village.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It's not clear whether the
12 shelling lasted four or it was four days later.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please repeat the question. Also I see a slight
14 difference, I thought I heard "in their village," whereas it reads in the
15 transcript "the village." Perhaps you ask the question again,
16 Ms. Gustafson.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Just reverting to Your Honour's concern, if one
19 looks at the way the question --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In their village.
21 MR. EMMERSON: If one looks at the way that the question on page
22 36, line 11 is expressed geographically, it's rather difficult to know
23 what the scope of the potential area that's being referred to is. I
24 appreciate the answer that the witness has just given is more
25 site-specific than that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Ms. Gustafson, could you try to reach utmost precision in relation
3 to shelling activities, and perhaps you put the question again to the
4 witness whether -- in exactly the same words or slightly different,
5 because the interpreters also had difficulties in interpreting -- in
6 understanding exactly what the witness said. Please proceed.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.
8 Q. Witness 66, I think in your answer you said there was some
9 shelling. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what location was being shelled,
10 if you know.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we -- should we first try to clarify the issue
12 of time, because without time that doesn't make much sense to talk about
13 the places.
14 Could you -- the interpreters had some difficulties when you were
15 talking about shelling, were you talking about shelling that took place
16 during four or five days or was it four or five days after the three young
17 men had been seen last? Could you tell us.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So after they went missing, four or
19 five days later there was non-stop shelling.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. During all these days or did it start four or
21 five days after they went missing?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Four or five days elapsed before the
23 shelling started.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. And now Ms. Gustafson will ask you in
25 more detail about where the shelling took place.
1 Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Witness 66, I'll ask you again, do you -- can you tell the Trial
4 Chamber, please, what location was being shelled, if you know?
5 A. It was between Grabanica and the schoolhouse.
6 Q. Where was the schoolhouse?
7 A. On the right side is the school and on the left side is Grabanica,
8 their school near the church.
9 Q. Are you talking about a school that's next to the village of
11 A. Yes, it's in their village. The school is on the right side and
12 Grabanica is on the left side.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry, I'm just anxious if the witness is
15 being invited to give evidence about a military operation. Obviously we
16 have had certain other evidence about those matters and the dates. I'm
17 just anxious that we should have some clarity as to how it is and on what
18 basis it is that the witness speaks.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, I take it that you're willing to
20 explore that.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Certainly, Your Honour.
22 Q. Witness 66, how is it that you knew that these were the locations
23 that were being shelled?
24 A. We heard and we could all see it. You could see everything from
25 our village, everything that's happening in their village.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MS. GUSTAFSON:
3 Q. And who was doing the shelling, if you know?
4 A. Ethnic Albanians.
5 Q. Are you saying that the Albanians were shelling Grabanica?
6 A. I don't know with what kind of weapon, but they shot from the
7 village of Grabanica as the army troops and police were going along the
8 road to Pec, the army and the police were shot at from the village of
9 Grabanica, I don't know with which weapon.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MS. GUSTAFSON:
12 Q. You said: "The army troops and police were going along the road to
13 Pec, the army and the police were shot at from the village of Grabanica."
14 Do you know if the army and the police responded or retaliated in
15 any way?
16 A. Yes, later, about ten days later they did.
17 Q. What did they do?
18 A. They fired from the asphalt road towards the village.
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 MS. GUSTAFSON:
21 Q. When the Serbs shot -- retaliated, fired from the asphalt road
22 towards the village, when was that in relation to when the three men went
23 missing? Do you understand my question?
24 A. Ten or 12 days later.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you. Those are my questions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.
4 Witness 66, we've been in court now for one hour and a half.
5 We'll take a break. After the break you'll be cross-examined by counsel
6 for the Defence. We'll have a break until five minutes to 11.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 66, now you'll be cross-examined.
10 Mr. Emmerson.
11 MR. EMMERSON: As to having consulted with my colleagues, I think
12 the witness may be detained for even less time than anticipated. I have
13 no questions for him.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You have no questions.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Nor do I.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
17 Mr. Troop.
18 MR. TROOP: I have no questions, Your Honour.
19 [Trial Chamber confers].
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness 66, usually after you're examined by
21 the party that called you, there will be questions by the other parties,
22 sometimes by the Bench as well, but apparently your testimony has been so
23 clear as to not raise any need to further questions to the Defence. The
24 Chamber also has no questions to you. So therefore, this concludes your
25 testimony. I'd like to thank you very much for answering the questions
1 that were put to you. Thank you for coming and have a safe trip home
3 Before you leave the courtroom, curtains should be pulled down for
4 a second in order to make a face distortion effective.
5 Madam Usher, could you ...
6 Madam Usher, could you escort the witness out of the courtroom.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Curtains can be pulled up again.
9 I've got three items on my agenda, the first one that the Chamber
10 will deliver the reasons, reasons for the granting of protective measures
11 for Witness 55. On the 5th of September, 2007, the Prosecution applied
12 for the protective measures of pseudonym and face and voice distortion for
13 Witness 55. The witness was examined at length by the parties in court on
14 the 5th and the 6th of September, 2007, as to the application. The
15 witness stated that he has family living in Kosovo as well as in Albania
16 which he visits on a regular basis. The witness has expressed fear for
17 his safety and that of his family should it become publicly known that he
18 gave evidence for the Prosecution. Further, the witness has also
19 expressed fear of retaliation from his own family, as they are strong
20 supporters of Ramush Haradinaj. Given the nature of the witness's
21 anticipated testimony, the Chamber is satisfied that it may antagonise
22 persons who reside in the region and that there is a risk that if the
23 testimony of the witness were to be made public, physical harm might
24 result to the witness or the witness's family.
25 The Chamber therefore finds that the requirements for granting
1 protective measures have been met, and this conclude's the Chamber's
2 reasons for the decision on protective measures for Witness 55.
3 Mr. Registrar, I would like to move into private session for the
4 next two items.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 8439-8441 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
7 The Chamber has decided that we'll have a break until 12.00.
8 We'll then resume and there'll be further oral submissions on the
9 procedural matter, but that will be in private session. And after we've
10 done that we'll adjourn, not only for the day but even for the week. We
11 stand adjourned until 12.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 11.17 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.03 p.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we turn into private session to hear
15 submissions, there's one invitation for the parties which I'd like to
16 deliver, that is an invitation to the parties regarding the unsealing of
17 the testimony of Witness 3.
18 On the 4th of September, 2007, the Trial Chamber decided to hear
19 the testimony of Witness 3 in private session and announced that it would
20 decide at a later stage what portions of the evidence could be made
21 public. This can be found at transcript page 7910. The Chamber now
22 invites the parties to jointly file the precise redactions that they
23 consider necessary before the testimony is unsealed. Alternatively, the
24 Chamber invites the Prosecution to file a proposed set of redactions on
25 the model of its motion filed on the 31st of August, 2007, regarding
1 Witness 56 to which the Defence would have two weeks to respond.
2 This concludes the Chamber's invitation to the parties.
3 I think it goes without saying that where the invitation said
4 "Alternatively the Chamber invites the Prosecution to file," that of
5 course this alternative should only be seriously considered after the
6 parties have made a serious effort to agree on the redactions needed. So
7 the Chamber would highly prefer to receive a joint proposal from the
8 parties rather than to receive a proposed set just by the Prosecution.
9 Then we turn into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 8444-8462 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Mr. Re, is there any news about scheduling for next week which
14 could be shared with the parties and the Chamber?
15 MR. RE: Still trying very hard. We have no update. As I said to
16 my colleagues earlier, we -- we're doing everything we possibly can.
17 We'll know today or tomorrow. I guess that it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, it's still uncertain whether you
19 would have a witness for Monday?
20 MR. RE: At the moment it's uncertain, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then under those circumstances, we will adjourn
22 until Monday - and, Mr. Registrar, could you tell us time and
23 courtroom ...
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until Monday ...
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until Monday, the 17th of September,
3 quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, Courtroom I, unless the parties
4 receive information giving a new time to appear in court as a result of
5 the unavailability of witnesses. I mean, it's of no use to ask everyone
6 to come here at quarter past 2.00 on Monday to find out that we adjourn
7 again for the day. So the parties will be informed about that, and I take
8 it that the registry will take care that the public will be informed about
9 any rescheduling as well.
10 We stand adjourned.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.47 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of
13 September, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.