Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10287

1 Tuesday, 6 November 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to

9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor

10 versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12 Good morning, Witness 28. I would like to remind you that you are

13 still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your

14 testimony.

15 And, Mr. Re, are you ready to re-examine the witness? I think you

16 indicated that you would need ten minutes.

17 MR. RE: Sorry?


19 MR. RE: Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/28 [Resumed]

22 Re-examination by Mr. Re:

23 Q. Good morning, Witness 28. I just want to ask you some questions

24 to clarify some things that were asked of you in cross-examination

25 yesterday.

Page 10288

1 Do you have Exhibit MFI P21 -- 1212, which is the Human Rights

2 Watch report, in front of you? It was in that bundle we gave you.

3 That -- the folder. Has it been taken away from you?

4 Yes, that one's fine. Yes. Okay.

5 Yesterday, Mr. Harvey asked you a question. Can you please turn

6 to page 92 of that particular document. I'll refer you to a question --

7 the Court to a question asked by Mr. Harvey at page 109 of the transcript

8 and your answer --

9 A. Are you talking about this document?

10 Q. It should be in there. There was also the --

11 A. That's not that one.

12 Q. -- hard binder which we gave you.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. Do you have the page -- page 92 of that report.

15 Yesterday at page 109 of the unpaginated transcript, you had said

16 in response to a question from Mr. Harvey, "I think that middle July there

17 was attempt of Serbian forces to suppress KLA existence in different

18 villages. By then I think more than 40 per cent of territory was already

19 controlled by KLA, as far as I can understand" -- there's a word I don't

20 understand -- "the villages. So really what was happening, they would

21 start pushing and bombarding the village by village."

22 Now, if I could just take you to the Human Rights Watch report.

23 And there's a passage at page 92 which says:

24 "From April until mid July 1998, the UCK held as much as 40 per

25 cent of the territory of Kosovo, although much of that territory was

Page 10289

1 retaken by government forces by August 1998. Until then, however, the UCK

2 had held a number of strategic towns and villages and manned check-points

3 along some of Kosovo's important roads today" -- and this is written in

4 October 1998 -- "their area of control has been reduced to some parts of

5 Drenica and a few scattered pockets in the west, especially at night."

6 Now, is what is written in that report which I've just quoted to

7 you consistent with your observations and research in Kosovo in that

8 period in 1998?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Mr. Emmerson cross-examined you yesterday about some portions of

11 this report which is in front of you, and he asked you a number of

12 questions. One of those at page 40 was whether information in the Human

13 Rights Watch report -- not 40 of that; 40 of the transcript, page 20 --

14 referable to page 20 of that report and at page 12 of that report.

15 And he asked you whether the information in the Human Rights Watch

16 report accurately reflected information given to you by lawyers who you

17 interviewed. And at page 41, whether it was consistent with information

18 provided to you about detention during 1998. He was asking you to comment

19 upon this report vis-a-vis your own experiences.

20 Yesterday you gave some evidence about the conflict. And if I

21 could take you to page 91 of the Human Rights Watch report, where it

22 says:

23 "The hostilities between the UCK and government forces had by

24 February 28th, 1998 reached a level of conflict to which the obligations

25 of Common Article 3 apply. Given the subsequent intensity of the

Page 10290

1 conduct -- sorry, conflict from March through September, Human Rights

2 Watch is also evaluating the conduct of the UCK and government forces

3 based on the standards enshrined in protocol II to the Geneva Convention.

4 On February 28th Serbian special forces launched their first large-scale

5 military attack on villages Likosane and Cirez suspected of harbouring UCK

6 members. Since that date the UCK and the government had been engaged in

7 ongoing hostilities involving military offensives, front lines, and the

8 use of attack helicopters and heavy artillery, mostly by the government.

9 The UCK possesses small arms and light artillery. Although the UCK is

10 primarily a guerilla army with no rigid hierarchical structure and there

11 are separate internal factions during the period covered by this report,

12 from September to -- from February to September, the UCK was organised --

13 was an organised military force for purposes of international humanitarian

14 law."

15 I'm not asking you for a -- an opinion as to the applicability of

16 Common Article 3 or the application of international humanitarian law.

17 What I'm going to ask you about is the conflict and what you observed. I

18 want you to comment upon the accuracy of their assessment - that's the

19 Human Rights Watch assessment - that there was a conflict in -- a conflict

20 had commenced by the time of the attack on the 28th of February, 1998

21 based upon everything you saw as an observer on the ground and someone

22 whose work was used by Human Rights Watch to form this assessment.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I can see that Mr. Re prefaces his question

25 by indicating that he's not asking for an opinion.

Page 10291

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he actually is.

2 MR. EMMERSON: In fact he is.


4 MR. EMMERSON: And if he wishes through this witness to establish

5 factual material which may assist the Trial Chamber to reach that

6 conclusion, then the right way to do it is to ask about the particular

7 incidents that this witness is able to testify about, one by one.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, the whole issue of the existence of a

9 armed conflict, of course, is directly linked to the applicability of

10 Common Article 3, I would say, unless your concept of an armed conflict

11 would be any different from what we find in the Geneva Conventions.

12 Therefore, a few facts are given in this report. For example, light

13 artillery in the hands of the UCK or other facts. But the way in which

14 you phrased the question is the -- to comment on the accuracy of the Human

15 Rights Watch assessment that in their assessment there was a conflict,

16 that a conflict had commenced by the time, that is, as a matter of fact,

17 another way of asking for a support or a denial of the conclusions of the

18 Human Rights Watch.

19 MR. RE: Two -- two things in response. The Defence case, as I

20 understand it, is there was no conflict --


22 MR. RE: -- at that particular point.


24 MR. RE: The second one is yesterday Mr. Emmerson asked the

25 witness exactly the same in relation to other conclusions Human Rights

Page 10292

1 Watch had drawn in relation to the conduct of -- or the behaviour of the

2 Serbian police.

3 My -- I'm asking this witness in effect: You were on the ground

4 there. You saw what was happening. In --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But there is a difference between asking about

6 activities of the police and asking whether the conclusion that it was an

7 armed conflict, which has such an important legal connotation, there is a

8 difference. But you may ask about whether -- what this witness observed,

9 whether that is consistent with what apparently, according to the report,

10 Human Rights Watch used as facts underlying their conclusion; that is,

11 that an armed conflict had emerged.

12 MR. EMMERSON: May I simply add that in the --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

14 MR. EMMERSON: -- passage that Mr. Re read into the record, the

15 second paragraph on page 91 contains factual information; that is to say,

16 there was an attack on Likosane and Cirez on the 28th of February; there

17 had been ongoing hostilities involving military offensives, front lines,

18 and the use of attack helicopters and heavy artillery and that the UCK

19 possessed small arms and light artillery.

20 Apart from that, we would respectfully submit that none of that --

21 the material is properly the subject of a question seeking endorsement of

22 the witness. Those -- those are matters of fact.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that's what I said before, I think.

24 So you can ask the witness about the facts which Human Rights

25 Watch reported as supporting their conclusion that there was an armed

Page 10293

1 conflict.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. RE:

4 Q. Witness 28, Human Rights Watch used a number of incidents and

5 facts which are referred to in the report to conclude that there was a

6 conflict in existence by 28th of February, 1998. Did you observe any

7 factual situations on the ground, conflicts, attacks, or anything like

8 that, which are consistent with those used by Human Rights Watch to reach

9 its -- to reach its opinion?

10 A. I'm reluctant now to comment on this part of Human Rights Watch

11 report just for the pure fact that I -- on this part I didn't have any

12 input given. I can just say that parallelly in the same period -- and I

13 mentioned yesterday it was my opinion --

14 JUDGE ORIE: I have problems in receiving ...

15 Thank you.

16 MR. RE:

17 Q. You said, "I can just say that parallel in the same period. And I

18 mentioned yesterday it was my opinion.

19 A. Yes. My opinion was that there was a military conflict, and I

20 mentioned why I did see that starting from 28th of February.

21 I would remember a few more, I think, indications that could

22 sustain that opinion, especially in Drenica. After that, police forces

23 didn't enter deep into the region and I had a couple of interviews with

24 the human rights workers and organisations that were going into the

25 Drenica to supply the food to -- to the refugees. And they were stopped

Page 10294

1 on the check-points by KLA. They were sometimes returned back, checked

2 identity papers. So I -- I had feeling that there was established control

3 there.

4 Also, I visited Drenica several times and -- to talk about the

5 situation with the refugees, because the villages in Drenica, bordering

6 villages closer to Mitrovica, Srbica were shelled by Serbian forces. That

7 was the reason I was going there. And I did see military command there.

8 Q. On what did you --

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. To the extent that -- to the extent

10 the witness has -- has answered factually, I have no objection to the

11 extent she has rendered an opinion. We would interpose an objection with

12 regard to there being the establishment of military conflict.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Guy-Smith, you can't object to an answer of

14 the witness. I mean, the question was now properly phrased. It's --

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, then I'll put it -- I'm put it another way

16 then.

17 JUDGE ORIE: You can comment on it at a later stage that this was

18 opinion rather than facts.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Although, it was a mixed answer, and you expressed

21 that as well.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, to the extent -- to the extent that the

23 Chamber directed that the answer be direct -- deal with facts in the

24 answer -- and the answer obtained dealt with opinion, the objection is

25 noted for the record.

Page 10295

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the Chamber directed the -- to ask for the

2 facts. The Chamber never directs a witness to answer, unless there's a

3 reason to do so. But --

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not suggesting --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's --

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not suggesting the Chamber did that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: It didn't escape our attention that a small part of

8 the answer included the opinion of the witness as to the existence of an

9 armed conflict.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

11 MR. RE:

12 Q. And just on that last answer, you said it was your opinion that

13 there was military conflict, "And I mentioned why I did say that -- see

14 that starting from the 28th of February."

15 What were the -- the facts, circumstances, or things you observed

16 which leads you to believe there was a military conflict from the 28th of

17 February? What specific -- why that date?

18 A. I thought that we addressed that question yesterday. The 28th of

19 February there was that military operation against the Cirez and Likosane,

20 which then was followed by the funeral with the presence of KLA soldiers.

21 But the next event was, like, two or three days after, and it was

22 Prekaz event with Adem Jashari family being sacrificed in that conflict.

23 And dealing with the Jashari issue, I was aware that from January

24 Jashari -- Jashari and the groups of KLA, I would say, at that point

25 already have been hiding in the forests nearby and that Serbian police

Page 10296

1 tried to arrest them. There was attack on Jashari family in the beginning

2 of January, and then that -- that already was some kind of military unit

3 there.

4 Q. The final thing I want to ask you, Witness 28, is -- if you could

5 just turn to page 92 of the Human Rights Watch report, where it says:

6 "Seasoned war correspondents, such as Human Rights Watch

7 researchers, who encountered the UCK, observed instances of discipline

8 amongst UCK fighters manning check-points and their tendency to apply --

9 sorry, their tendency to apply similar policies and procedures, for

10 example, with regard to granting journalists access to areas under UCK

11 control. Such discipline is an indication that the fighters were

12 receiving orders regarding policy that the fighters were answerable at

13 least to regional commanders. There are also cases, however, when a clear

14 lack of discipline was observed, which points to some structural

15 weaknesses within the UCK. Despite this, it is clear the UCK leadership

16 was able to organise systematic attacks throughout large parts of Kosovo."

17 I just want to ask you the same -- the same sort of question. Did

18 you encounter or experience anything similar to that which Human Rights

19 Watch has used to make that finding in its report?

20 A. I do think they had their own pass to UCK zone, but the process

21 was really that political representation in Pristina of KLA that existed

22 at the time was issuing passes to the journalists and human rights workers

23 that they can go and interview people on the territory. So I did have

24 that pass. I believe that Fred Abrahams was also at that point a

25 researcher for Human Rights Watch had that pass. I am -- only can

Page 10297

1 remember one situation when that was broken in the sense of -- there were

2 two journalists, but they were Serbian journalists, I think, or Russian,

3 were kidnapped and kept for two days. And that's only what I remember,

4 that journalists suffered. In -- in Drenica. I'm talking about Drenica

5 region.

6 Q. Just to follow up on that KLA pass. Are you telling the Trial

7 Chamber that the KLA in Pristina gave you a pass?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. Can you tell just the Trial Chamber who gave -- who gave you the

10 pass, what it was valid for, how you used it, and how effective it was.

11 And -- and when you got it.

12 A. This is -- this was not called "KLA." It was political

13 representation of KLA. And Mr. Adem Demaci was then political

14 representative of that office. And that office was approving the passes

15 to -- into Drenica mostly.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re put five questions in one to you. You

17 answered the question who gave the pass to you. What was it valid for?

18 THE WITNESS: It was valid to enter the territory under the

19 control of the KLA in Drenica.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did it say that, "Valid to enter the territory

21 under the control of the KLA," or ...?

22 THE WITNESS: I can't remember what was written there.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then next question was: When was the pass

24 issued?

25 THE WITNESS: It was mid -- mid of the year that I got.

Page 10298

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mid of the year --

2 THE WITNESS: Or second part -- second part of the year of 1988

3 [sic]. Before that, I was entering but I didn't need the pass. I knew

4 the people. But I think second part of 1998 was this issued to me.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you be more specific? Because "the second

6 part" still covers six months.

7 THE WITNESS: Six months. I think it must be early autumn or

8 maybe something like that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Early autumn. Do I have to understand that --

10 THE WITNESS: 1998.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that. But would you call

12 September early autumn?


14 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- then another part of the question was: How

15 did you use it?

16 THE WITNESS: I never had to show that pass to anyone, because I

17 knew the people who would just go with me there. So I just didn't need

18 ever to prove who am I. But I understand that some foreign journalists

19 had to -- encountered the KLA at check-points and show that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, earlier you said, "I didn't need the pass at an

21 early stage because people knew me." But then you --

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, and --

23 JUDGE ORIE: But then you apparently -- then you apparently -- the

24 situation changed, and now you tell us that even when you had this pass,

25 you still didn't use it.

Page 10299


2 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore any question about how effective it was,

3 your personal --

4 THE WITNESS: My personal situation was slightly different than a

5 journalist probably there.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

7 Mr. Re, no further questions?

8 MR. RE: No further questions, no.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would like to check on a -- on a few matters

10 with you.

11 Questioned by the Court:

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re took you to page 91 about the situation after

13 the 28th of February. Human Rights Watch describes that "UCK and the

14 government have been engaged in ongoing hostilities involving military

15 offensive front lines." Did you ever see any front lines after February

16 1998?

17 A. Let me think. I would not call that "front line." I would call

18 that frozen -- from some periods during the year would be frozen military

19 situation where KLA would keep part of the territory not disturbed by

20 Serbian forces and then almost 100 metres, 200 metres further another

21 check-point, and then there would be Serbian control of that. That was

22 typical, I think, for Malisevo for a couple of months. And for -- for

23 Orahovac I would say that was the front line at -- that lasted two or

24 three days. But I was not there. I just could interview people who

25 explained how situation happened.

Page 10300

1 JUDGE ORIE: And about the Dukagjini area, could you tell us

2 something about that?

3 A. My -- my understanding was when I was in 29th -- and several days

4 in this that there was a road dividing Decani, Djakovica. That was the

5 road that was between -- between Serbian forces and KLA.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You said the 29th --

7 A. 29th and -- from 20th to 29th. I can just remember that, that

8 after the fights that occurred on 22nd, 23rd, shelling from the -- the

9 Suka Babaloc. I think the Serbian police succeeded to keep the road open

10 and the villages were under KLA control.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the month of April?

12 A. Month of April.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then did you -- any -- did you observe or learn about

14 helicopters used for attacks?

15 A. Yes. I was told by Albanian refugees that military -- military

16 planes, they call it, were used. But I was not sure is that for the

17 attacks or for -- for -- to scare the people, because --

18 JUDGE ORIE: You told us about military planes --

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- that were reported to you. You understood that to

21 be helicopters?

22 A. Planes, I think. I think that they were saying "planes."

23 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did you learn anything about the weaponry

24 used -- Human Rights Watch says "heavy artillery mostly by the

25 government."

Page 10301

1 A. Heavy artillery, I think later, later in the conflict stage,

2 especially in August and May. For heavy artillery, I'm not sure what was

3 happening in April. I know that there was shelling. But how? What was

4 the structure of the weaponry, I don't know.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then the UCK is described as possessing small arms

6 and light artillery." Could you on the basis of your observation confirm

7 that or ...?

8 A. I -- I cannot comment on weaponry that UCK had.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

10 Any need to re-examine the -- to ...?

11 That's three times nodding "no."

12 Since we have no further questions for you, Witness 28, this

13 concludes your testimony before this Court; although we had a bit of a

14 chaotic start last week, I hope that you also noticed that it was -- that

15 we were better organised these days, although the Chamber still regrets

16 that we could not already yesterday let you go.

17 Thank you very much for coming back today. Thanking for -- I

18 thank you for answering the questions of the parties and the questions put

19 to you by the Bench, and I'd like to wish you a safe trip home again.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

22 Now the curtains are down, so I think the witness can be escorted

23 out of the courtroom.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.

Page 10302

1 MR. RE: In respect of the next witness, Mr. Di Fazio is take --

2 JUDGE ORIE: I have problems in hearing you.

3 MR. RE: Can you hear me now?

4 JUDGE ORIE: I can hear you now, yes.

5 MR. RE: Okay.

6 The -- Mr. Di Fazio proposes to lead his evidence by Rule 92 ter,

7 and I understand statements have been served, et cetera. Mr. Di Fazio

8 will deal with that.

9 Just in relation to what happens afterwards, that -- Mr. -- excuse

10 me.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 MR. RE: Mr. Haskaj, who doesn't want protective measures, is the

13 only other witness we have available today, due to various matters

14 concerning travel documents of witnesses coming from Kosovo hopefully

15 tomorrow.

16 Last night we filed an application to restore investigation team

17 leader Harjit Sandhu to the witness list, he was originally on the list,

18 but only for the limited purpose of his testifying about -- or providing

19 evidence in written form we would make the application for in relation to

20 the exhumation of the body of Mr. Skender Kuqi.

21 As the Trial Chamber will appreciate, we made attempts to have

22 relevant family members from the Kuqi family testify as to the exhumation

23 of that particular body. It's one of the bodies which -- for which there

24 was no DNA. It's one of the four bodies for which there was no DNA

25 analysis undertaken. The body wasn't re-exhumed for DNA. And that

Page 10303

1 evidence, in the absence of a family member, is needed to connect the body

2 coming out of the cemetery with that which Dr. Morcillo performed an

3 autopsy on.

4 Now, Mr. Sandhu's evidence would be the fact that he attended on

5 the 9th of March, 2004 a grave in -- in the cemetery and the family

6 members pointed out the tended grave of their father and relative,

7 Mr. Skender Kuqi, and Mr. Sandhu was present when the body was labeled and

8 the label went with the body-bag and then Dr. Morcillo performed an

9 autopsy on that particular body. That's the -- that's the evidence we

10 would -- we would seek to elicit from Mr. Sandhu but in -- in written

11 form.

12 Now, we haven't got a 92 bis declaration yet. We could get that

13 very quickly today or -- if we run out of witnesses today, I would seek to

14 call him today for cross-examination, if necessary, if the Trial Chamber

15 would allow us to restore him to the list for that very limited purpose.

16 He's in the building and he's available at five minutes' notice to -- to

17 testify.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I haven't seen the -- you said it was filed

19 yesterday late. I was informed about that you intended to file it. My

20 latest information early this morning, because I have to check my e-mails

21 late at night, early in the morning, was that it had not yet been filed

22 but that you intended to file it and that a courtesy copy was provided to

23 the Chamber.

24 MR. RE: We electronically filed it last night but it wouldn't

25 have been distributed by the Registry until this morning.

Page 10304

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I haven't read it although I was informed

2 about it, but let's first ask the Defence about it.

3 MR. EMMERSON: I'm in the same position that Your Honour is in.

4 Apparently, it was received by way of e-mail sometime very late last

5 night. It may be - I don't know - in due course if it's a matter capable

6 of relatively easy resolution, but it doesn't, if I may say so, sound like

7 it would take up very much time in court today whatever way the matter is

8 resolved.


10 MR. EMMERSON: And so may I suggest that rather than try to, so to

11 speak, deal with this at break-neck speed, that we have the opportunity to

12 consider it, discuss it with the Prosecution, and resolve it over the

13 coming days.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that Mr. Re would like to use the

15 time remaining today, which, of course, would ask for a quick resolution

16 of -- of the motion filed and a quick response.

17 Could we -- could we invite perhaps the parties during the first

18 break to -- to see what could be achieved and then we'll read the motion

19 meanwhile as well and then we'll see after the break whether there's a

20 problem which the Chamber would have to --

21 MR. EMMERSON: Of course.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- determine matters or whether the parties could

23 agree on, a very practical matter --

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: This may -- this may be of some assistance. I was

25 able to give the 92 ter statement of the next witness to my client this

Page 10305

1 morning, because I only received it late last night in the language that

2 he speaks. And I was -- I've already indicated that I may -- I may need

3 some time to take instructions with regard to the new 92 ter statement,

4 because there are --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I did --

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- there are some changes also with regard to the

7 motion filed. I'm aware of its existence, but I have not had an

8 opportunity to take a look at it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, of course, I did not find the time to

10 compare in detail the earlier statements taken by the next witness and the

11 92 ter statement. I just couldn't find time for that.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: There -- there's --

13 JUDGE ORIE: I received it only a couple of minutes before court.

14 Are the differences such that the 92 ter statement introduces new

15 elements which could not already have been considered on the basis of the

16 statements which one would expect to be used for --

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: There --

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- preparation of cross-examination rather than

19 some --

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: There are some deviations. I don't think it's

21 going to take a particularly long time in the event that I need to take

22 instructions with regard to it at all. I'm offering it as an

23 understanding of the fact that we may need a bit longer of a break, so we

24 may be able to --


Page 10306

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- as we would say, grab two birds out of the

2 bush, instead of only one, with regard to scheduling.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Troop and Mr. Emmerson, as far as the 92 ter

5 statement is concerned, I -- I can imagine that Mr. Guy-Smith is -- is

6 even more interested than you are in this 92 ter statement.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. We would obviously be grateful for the

8 opportunity to have a brief consultation in connection with the changes,

9 but, of course, we've taken instructions on the basis of the original

10 document.


12 MR. EMMERSON: So it's not going to take us very long.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I suggest that we start already with the

14 witness to see whether the witness recognises signatures, et cetera, et

15 cetera, so we start with the 92 ter procedure, have a break a little bit

16 earlier than usual, a little bit longer than usual, and then after the

17 break we'll hear whether we can continue with the cross-examination. And

18 if the Defence considers that that's not possible, the Chamber will make a

19 ruling whether or not we'll start.

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think that's -- I think that's probably going to

21 work.


23 MR. GUY-SMITH: And is an excellent suggestion.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. If Your Honours please, could we deal with it

Page 10307

1 in this way: As you say, go through the formal procedures and get him to

2 recognise his statement. But I would then, if it's okay with the Trial

3 Chamber, perhaps if we could take the break there. I was hoping to avow

4 myself of the break to just clear up one or two matters that I need to do

5 before I finish my examination-in-chief. And it will be brief. It will

6 be brief. I'm thinking in the order of 10, 15 minutes of time.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then finish your examination-in-chief after

8 the break?

9 MR. DI FAZIO: That's what I'm thinking. Unless you would, of

10 course, prefer to deal with it all at once after the break.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, the Chamber, also for logistical

13 purposes, would like you to finish examination-in-chief before the break.

14 So if there are any questions left, apart from that, the Defence now asks

15 for additional time to consider whether they could accept the 92 ter

16 statement, but we take it that the Prosecution should have been ready to

17 call this witness and -- even without these delays. Let's just assume

18 that the Defence had said, No, it's all fine with us. Let's continue.

19 Then you would have been in the same position.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore the Chamber would like you to -- yes, to

22 conclude your examination-in-chief before the break.

23 Then I think the witness can be brought into the courtroom.

24 I see the Chamber staff has allowed us to -- allows us now to have

25 a good comparative view on the earlier statement and the present

Page 10308

1 statement.

2 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

3 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that it was not Chamber staff but,

4 rather, the Prosecution who provided the version which is -- has that been

5 made available to the Defence as well?

6 So you have a comparative -- okay, fine.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Haskaj. Can you understand -- can

9 you hear me in a language you understand?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of

12 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

13 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The

14 text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I invite you to make

15 that solemn declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Haskaj. Please be seated.

19 Madam Usher, could you assist the witness in getting his earphones

20 in such a way that they don't fall off all the time.

21 Witness, if you -- yes.

22 Please be seated, Mr. Haskaj.

23 Mr. Di Fazio.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 10309

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

2 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Haskaj. Could you just tell the Trial Chamber,

4 please, if these details are -- are correct. You're born on the 25th of

5 March, 1978 and your place of birth was Irzniq in Decan municipality. Are

6 those details correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'd like to show you a copy of a statement. You'll see it

9 appearing on the screen in front of you.

10 Can the witness please be shown 65 ter 2142, please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

13 identification as P1213.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I wonder if we could -- it's the

16 Albanian version that we need to look at in this particular regard.

17 Could we scroll down to the bottom of that page, please.

18 Q. Mr. Haskaj, did -- is that a statement that you signed?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Could we just have a look at the remaining pages,

21 please. Move through them and look at the bottom of each page so that you

22 can identify signatures.

23 And just tell us if your signature appears at the bottom of the

24 remaining pages.

25 A. Yes, it does.

Page 10310

1 Q. All right. Perhaps we don't need to go through the entire

2 statement doing that.

3 Was that a statement that you reviewed and made some changes to

4 yesterday?

5 A. [No verbal response]

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I didn't get an answer to that, not one that I

7 heard anyway.

8 A. Do I have to read it all to be able to see whether it's the same

9 one?

10 Q. Well, I don't -- I don't think it's necessary. You -- yesterday

11 did you review the statement that you had produced and given to OTP

12 investigators earlier on the 5th of -- on the 18th of February, 2006, and

13 did you yesterday review that statement that you gave in February 2006 and

14 make some small changes to it -- to it that you wished to?

15 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. All right. And is the statement that you see in front of you in

17 an electronic form that statement which you reviewed and later signed

18 yesterday?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And if you were to be asked questions about the material that is

21 contained in that statement, would you provide answers that are consistent

22 with the material that is in that statement? In other words, would you

23 repeat it?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, of course, there's -- I can imagine

Page 10311

1 there's some confusion. I take it that the witness went through his

2 February 2006 statement. That's the statement he reviewed.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then made some changes to that.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And then the new statement was --

7 MR. DI FAZIO: The new one.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- produced. Of course, to that statement he didn't

9 make -- he didn't review that again and -- but did he read it then again?

10 Have you read the final version in your own language? Yesterday.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And that's what you signed.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, yeah.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


16 Q. And are the contents true and accurate to the best of your belief

17 and knowledge?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you refer to a few annexes. And I

20 just want to very briefly take you to some of them -- or take you to all

21 of them, but I shan't dwell on them at length.

22 Firstly, the -- the first annex. It's -- or rather, group of

23 annexes. It's 65 ter 2139, and it consists of three sketches. Could we

24 look at that, and in particular could we look at the first sketch, also

25 known as annex 1.

Page 10312

1 I believe that there are English translations in e-court as well.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, do they need separate exhibit numbers?

3 Or are they part of the statement? I have not checked earlier.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: They are referred to and are part of the statement.

5 Could Your Honours just bear with me for one moment.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, if we would scroll down in the

7 statement, we would find them attached. So therefore -- is that the

8 situation?

9 [Prosecution counsel confer]

10 MR. DI FAZIO: No, they're separate documents, if Your Honours

11 please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Separate documents.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, separate.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then they need numbers.

15 Could you -- is it a set of several -- I remember --

16 MR. DI FAZIO: There's essentially - one, two, three - three

17 items. First is a bundle or -- or group of three sketches.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I take it that you want to have these three

19 sketches --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: They can be exhibited.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... At a later

22 stage.

23 Then do they have one or several --

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I'd be happy with one exhibit number for

25 them.

Page 10313

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But just for the registrar to know, are they

2 known under different 65 ter numbers or under one 65 ter number? So that

3 he knows what ...

4 MR. DI FAZIO: One 65 ter number. It's --

5 JUDGE ORIE: For three sketches.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: For three sketches. It's 2139.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be exhibit number?

8 THE REGISTRAR: P1214, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

12 Q. I just want you to look at -- in particular, look at the sketch

13 number 2. And you'll see it's got a number "2" on the top left-hand

14 corner. Okay.

15 And perhaps for the benefit of the Trial Chamber and Defence

16 counsel, could we also have a brief look at the English translation of

17 that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and have it rotated so that we can read what it

19 says.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'm only interested in one aspect of it.

21 Having seen it and I'd just like to invite the Trial Chamber to look at

22 that note -- the word "kitchen" down -- that's what I'm going to be asking

23 about. The word "kitchen" on the bottom right-hand corner of the screen.

24 Perhaps we can now go back to the Albanian.

25 Q. All right. Now, that's a sketch you produced. And in there you

Page 10314

1 referred to "Ruzhina" or "Ruzhina," kitchen.

2 Now, how far away was that particular place from the Black Eagles

3 base, the place where you slept and ate?

4 A. I can't say exactly. I can give you it in roundabout manner.

5 Q. Just do the best. Give us an approximation.

6 A. One kilometre away.

7 Q. And is that place, the kitchen, the -- where is that in -- in

8 relation to the headquarters of the Dukagjini Operational Zone, or is it

9 the same place?

10 A. As far as I know, it's in the same place.

11 Q. Could you just describe what was at the Dukagjini headquarters --

12 or the Dukagjini Operational Zone to the Trial Chamber. What exactly was

13 there in that complex?

14 A. It was a house.

15 Q. Thank you. Well, we know there was a kitchen there as well.

16 Anything else? House, kitchen. Or was that it?

17 A. It was a house that also had a kitchen.

18 Q. Okay. That's clear enough.

19 Did you ever have reason to go there when you were a member of the

20 Black Eagles?

21 A. Yes, we did go there to take our meals.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, just for my orientation.

24 Mr. Haskaj, on the sketch we found -- we find, in the middle of

25 it, a kind of a fork where one road goes a bit up and the other one goes a

Page 10315

1 bit down. Is that fork, is that the centre of Glodjane village where to

2 the left it goes to Irzniq, to the right it goes to Saptej, and to the

3 south, so down, it goes in the direction of Gramocelj?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring to the bifurcation

5 that goes upwards or the one that goes downwards?

6 JUDGE ORIE: The one most in the centre of the -- of your sketch;

7 that is, where it goes down in the direction of the kitchen and where

8 going up it says "700 metres."

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the centre of the village of

10 Gllogjan.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could you also tell us approximately from

12 this fork to the kitchen what approximately was the distance?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About three to four hundred metres.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So would that still be in the village, not yet in the

15 outskirts of where the -- where there still are houses in the village?

16 Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

19 Q. In your statement that you -- we've been -- I referred you to

20 earlier, you say that you -- you recall seeing Mr. Haradinaj in the

21 canteen where the Black Eagles unit used to eat. Is --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. The kitchen that you've marked there, that's the unit

24 where the Black Eagles used to eat; correct? Canteen, rather.

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 10316

1 Q. And how often in the time that you were a member of the Black

2 Eagles and based in Glodjane would you go there to eat? Was it every

3 night or was it in -- less frequently? Can you tell us, please.

4 A. In the beginning, it was every night. But later when the fighting

5 started and became more frequent, it was made impossible for us to go

6 there every day or every night.

7 Q. Certainly. And when you went there with your fellow Black Eagles

8 members, was Mr. Balaj with you?

9 A. Yes, there were occasions when he was.

10 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to look at a map now, if I may.

11 And that, if Your Honours please, is referred to as 61 ter 2140.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And that would need, Mr. Registrar?

13 MR. DI FAZIO: 65 ter.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would need a number, and it would be, Mr. Registrar?

15 THE REGISTRAR: P1215, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

18 Q. While and -- just before I ask you about this map, one other

19 matter that perhaps needs a little clarification. Earlier in your -- in

20 your evidence, you were describing the headquarters of the Dukagjini

21 Operational Zone, and I asked you about what was there and you said, "It

22 was a house." And you talked about the kitchen being there as well.

23 Whose house was it?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Can you tell us if in addition to it being used as an eating place

Page 10317

1 and a headquarters, whether families or civilians resided there or whether

2 it was given over entirely to military use?

3 A. No, there was no one from any family there.

4 Q. Thanks.

5 All right. Look at the map that is in front of you. Is --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, has an attempt been made to ask the

7 witness to identify it from an aerial view whether he recognises? Because

8 we have in evidence some aerial views of the village of Glodjane, so --

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, yes, we could do that now, if you prefer,

10 rather than --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I am -- I've forgotten about the exact

12 numbers. I think it's P35 or something like that. It's --

13 MR. DI FAZIO: We've got a map that we -- is now part of his

14 statement that is an aerial view in itself, and I intend to produce that

15 to -- to the witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have --

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm willing to show --

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- several. We have one ...

19 Yes, and -- we have two different kinds of aerial views. The one

20 is the one you have there, and the other one would be, Mr. Registrar?

21 That would be number?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that's marked for identification as

23 P35.

24 JUDGE ORIE: P35. Yes, well, my memory is still serving me to

25 some extent well.

Page 10318

1 P35 could be considered as well, which is more or less a -- as --

2 as if it were a map.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So if you would perhaps --

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yep. I'll -- I'll --

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- find out which one would serve this purpose best.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

8 Q. Witness, could you have a look at the screen in front of you. And

9 you -- it's an aerial map, almost like a satellite map.

10 Looking at that little village there from this angle, can you

11 recognise it?

12 A. Not from this angle, no.

13 JUDGE ORIE: If you use the other picture, then perhaps that would

14 work better and then we could -- if that doesn't work, then we could give

15 it a try again with this and perhaps give some guidance to the witness.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. Thank you.

17 Well, in that case, we can go directly to the photo, then.

18 Perhaps we can look at 65 ter 2141.

19 I have a large version which -- I don't know if you -- it would be

20 better on the ELMO or --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if it's on our screen, then it's --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't know if it makes much difference really.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The advantage of having it on the screen is that you

24 can point at certain matters. Yes.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. That's as --

Page 10319

1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I take it -- this is a marked version, so, of

2 course, it could be that it's just a 65 ter number, but it looks very much

3 as if this is a document already marked and perhaps in -- oh, it's marked

4 by this witness.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes, it is.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.


8 Q. Yes. In fact, Witness, are those your initials that you placed on

9 that map -- sorry, that photograph yesterday?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And does -- does the -- the circled area with your initials Y.H.

12 just underneath that, is that the school that -- the elementary school

13 that the Black Eagles had their base?

14 A. Yes, that's where they slept for a time.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then also ask the witness whether the

16 canteen is visible on this picture. I don't think it ...

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us whether -- where you said the

19 canteen was, whether that's -- that can be seen on this picture.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see it from here.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, if you -- or if we could have the

22 pointer at the -- no, I mean not the pointer but the -- the cursor on this

23 picture. And could you please move further to the right down. Yes, a

24 little bit further down to where a fork is in the roads. Yes, a little

25 bit more to the left. Yes.

Page 10320

1 Would that be the fork I earlier asked you about, the road to the

2 left --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, could you tell us, is it then the canteen

5 in which direction? Is that to the right down that road?

6 Madam Usher, perhaps you could try to move the cursor in -- a

7 little bit -- yes.

8 Is that down that road?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Further down that road?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a bit further down.

12 JUDGE ORIE: A little bit further down.

13 Okay. Could we then move again to the map, Mr. Di Fazio, that --

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Which was P35.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: P35.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could that be on the screen.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now could you -- yes.

20 Madam Usher, could you please point with the cursor at the fork in

21 the middle on the top of the photograph.

22 Mr. Haskaj --

23 And if the parties would disagree with the guidance I give to

24 Mr. Haskaj, then I take it that they'll immediately respond.

25 Where the cursor is now on your screen, as far as we can be aware,

Page 10321

1 that's the same fork we talked about earlier, direction of Irzniq going up

2 to the top of the map; direction of Saptej going to the right; and

3 direction of Gramocelj, which I understood was the road in the direction

4 of the kitchen, going to the left further down. That's -- you see the

5 cursor moving there. Could you --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you're able to identify where the canteen was,

8 Madam Usher will slowly move the cursor on this picture. Could you say

9 "stop" if we are at the point where you think the canteen would have been.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would have been able to help you

11 on a -- on a larger map. It's very difficult for me to do it with any

12 exactness. I can only point to the whereabouts.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We can -- we can zoom in a bit.

14 Is this the maximum zooming in?

15 Are you now able to better ...

16 Yes, could we do the same exercise. Madam Usher, we are now at

17 the fork and she's slowly moving.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And where -- if you can identify the place

20 approximately where the kitchen is, please tell us to stop.

21 Could you slowly move, Madam Usher.

22 So we're now coming close to where a little road goes to the right

23 and to the front. We move on in the direction of Gramocelj.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It -- it must be somewhere there.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.

Page 10322

1 Could this be marked by the witness.

2 Could you just mark that, add a "K" for "kitchen."

3 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

5 Mr. Registrar, that would be?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P1216.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I interrupted you very much, Mr. Di Fazio,

8 but --

9 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to Your Honour for that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we return now to ...

11 MR. DI FAZIO: We can go back -- if we've finished with this, I

12 think we can just go back to the photo --


14 MR. DI FAZIO: -- if Your Honours please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll go back to the photo, because that needs a

16 number -- or has it been assigned a number already? Let me just check.

17 The photograph has not been assigned a number yet, Mr. Registrar,

18 has it?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours that, will be marked for

20 identification as P1217.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's the -- the picture marked by the

22 witness before he came to court which indicates where the Black Eagles --

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- headquarters were.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: There's just one other feature I need to address.

Page 10323

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: So if we could get it up on the screen, please.


4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks. Excuse me.

5 Q. There's one other marking. That's an arrow. Does that show the

6 direction of the Ekonomija farm?

7 A. Yes. Approximately. It's in that direction.

8 Q. Okay. Did you have -- ever have reason to go there with your

9 colleagues from the -- the Black Eagles?

10 A. Could you ask the question again, please.

11 Q. Did you and Black Eagles members ever go to the Ekonomija farm or

12 the area at the Ekonomija farm, that -- the land around it, for any

13 particular reason, any reason at all, in the time that you were based in

14 Glodjane?

15 A. It is possible that we went, but I can't remember.

16 Q. What -- okay. Well, fine. Fair enough. But if you did go, what

17 sort of reasons would have taken you there? Training or some other

18 reason?

19 A. I said that I can't remember that I've been there. There was no

20 reason.

21 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you say that you did your training

22 at the elementary school, which we can see circled there. Is that the

23 only place that you trained?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 10324

1 MR. DI FAZIO: And it's been given a number, but I would ask that

2 it be fully exhibited, this photograph, if Your Honours please.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I think it would be -- yes, the photograph is not

4 attached directly to the statement, is it?

5 MR. DI FAZIO: No --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against the admission of the marked

7 photograph outside of court?

8 Then it is admitted into evidence, it being number ... Let me just

9 check. P1217.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

12 Right. If we could just return now, please, to 65 ter 2141.

13 That's the photo -- the map rather. Sorry, 2140. My apologies. 2140.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Is that ...?

15 Has a number already been assigned to the map? Yes.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, it's P1215.


18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

19 Q. Witness, is -- is your signature or initials, do they appear on

20 that -- on that map?

21 Perhaps if we can make it smaller so that we can see it in

22 perspective.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. And is that a map that you marked when you originally

25 provided your February 2006 statement?

Page 10325

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in your -- in that statement that you -- which you reviewed

3 yesterday and later made some alterations, do you refer -- sorry.

4 In -- yesterday you reviewed your 2006 statement and produced and

5 signed another statement with some variations in it. In your new

6 statement which I showed you this morning, do you refer to that particular

7 map and comment on the various markings on it?

8 A. Both in the statement and about the map, I was asked which

9 villages were better organised during the period May to end of July. And

10 I remember that I marked some of the villages that were better organised

11 during that time.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that map

14 into evidence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

16 Then the map is admitted into evidence. And that's P1215.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

19 Your Honours, I think I've just about finished. We have numbers

20 now for the bundle of sketches.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to deal with --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, we do.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- a number of sketches since they are -- or we could

24 deal with them, perhaps, already even if we have not yet dealt with the 92

25 ter statement, because even apart from the 92 ter statement these sketches

Page 10326

1 are -- have some relevance on the basis of the viva voce testimony given

2 by the witness.

3 Any objections against the three sketches?

4 Not. Then they are admitted into evidence. And that was

5 number -- I think it was P1214, if I'm not wrong.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, it was.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, admitted into evidence, all three of them,

8 English translations attached.

9 If you have no further questions, Mr. Di Fazio, we'll first have a

10 break.

11 Could I just enquire with the Defence: It's now 23 minutes past

12 10.00. If we would resume at 5 minutes to 11.00, would that be sufficient

13 time? A little bit --

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would be fine. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break and we'll resume at 5 minutes

16 to 11.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, are you ready to cross-examine the

20 witness?

21 But perhaps before we start, is there any update for the Chamber

22 on matters?

23 MR. EMMERSON: There's progress being made, is the short answer to

24 that question.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps it would be wisest, if progress has been

Page 10327

1 made, not at this moment to intervene.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly. Progress is being, rather than has been

3 made.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think in many languages, you have expressions

5 of chickens breeding eggs. I leave that for the -- not to compare you

6 with these birds, but ...

7 Then before I give you an opportunity to start to cross-examine

8 the witness, then ...

9 Mr. Haskaj, we were informed that you prepared a kind of a

10 statement in writing in your own language. I've seen it. I've not seen

11 any translation of that. So I do not know what it contains. It is

12 unusual for a witness to deliver speeches.

13 If at the end of your testimony there is any answer which you say

14 I'd like to add something to this answer or I might have been

15 misunderstood there, you have an opportunity to do so. But a witness,

16 apart from that, should limit himself to what he's asked by the parties.

17 Now, the statement you have put on paper and which we have not

18 received any translation from has been provided to the parties. So if

19 there's anything relevant in your statement for this case, then the

20 parties will elicit that from you by questioning you on that matter. If,

21 however, the statement was more of a general character, then it would be

22 inappropriate for you as a witness to give such a statement. So you have

23 to rely on the parties. They will consider how relevant or irrelevant it

24 is what you did put on paper. And if they ask you questions, of course

25 you can answer those questions. If they do not ask you any questions

Page 10328

1 about it, then we leave your statement as it is; that is, on paper with

2 you.

3 Mr. Emmerson.


5 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.

6 I think Defence counsel have received the statement not with a

7 translation but ...

8 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, we've received the document that Your Honour

9 is referring to.


11 MR. EMMERSON: And have had an opportunity to obtain, so far as

12 counsel are concerned, a gist -- a gist translation.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We leave it entirely in your hands. This kind of

14 statement sometimes tend to contain general observations on matters which

15 are not for a witness to -- to comment upon.

16 I leave it in the hands of the parties.

17 Please proceed.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

19 Q. Mr. Haskaj --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Haskaj -- Mr. Emmerson is counsel for

21 Mr. Haradinaj, and he'll now cross-examine you.

22 Please proceed.


24 Q. Mr. Haskaj, I'd like you, please, to look at paragraph 34 of your

25 witness statement, which is Exhibit P1213, on page 7. It will be brought

Page 10329

1 up on the screen in front of you in just a moment.

2 Now, this document has been amended following your meeting

3 yesterday with the Prosecutor, and I'm going to suggest to you that much

4 of the information in that paragraph, at least in the way it's expressed,

5 is wrong or inaccurate.

6 And in particular, there is the suggestion in the second sentence

7 and the third sentence that large portions of the Dukagjin area, including

8 the Lake Radoniq area, were outside Serbian control between April and

9 September and indeed that a number of villages, Gllogjan, Ratishe,

10 Jabllanice, Dashinoc, Smolica, and Junik could not be entered by the Serb

11 forces between April and September, and finally the suggestion that

12 throughout that period, apparently, the greater part of the canal area

13 that you marked on the map was controlled, as the word appears in your

14 statement, by the KLA.

15 That's the broad suggestion that I'm going to put to you. Now let

16 me break it down, please.

17 First of all, we have heard unchallenged evidence in this case,

18 indeed from senior Serb military officials, that the 52nd Military Police

19 Battalion was stationed in the area of the village of Bites and the base

20 of Suka Bites from March onwards throughout the year.

21 Can you comment on that, please.

22 A. In a map I was shown yesterday I surrounded -- I marked the lake

23 part, which was always under Serb control.

24 Q. Yes. And there were Serb forces based at the base of Suka Bites.

25 You accept that.

Page 10330

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. They were conducting operations and shelling from that position

3 all the way over to Gllogjan and Irzniq throughout the period from the end

4 of March, beginning of April through to September, I suggest.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. There were Serb forces stationed in Junik throughout the

7 indictment period from the PJP, I suggest.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Because on the face of your statement, you have suggested -- I

10 mean, I don't know whether these are your words or somebody else's -- that

11 between April and September Serb forces could not enter Junik. But that's

12 not right, is it? They were based there and they did enter there.

13 A. I did not say that they did not enter. I mentioned only the

14 villages where the KLA was better organised, and those were the villages

15 that I mentioned. But I didn't say that they could not enter. I said

16 yesterday several times that we did not have the armament, the weapons to

17 keep everything under control, so we could never say that we had full

18 control over a zone. In order for us to have had full control, we must

19 have had a better organisation than that. This is what I said yesterday,

20 and we discussed this a long time, and still they left it as it was,

21 almost as it was.

22 Q. It's quite important, this, because whether they're your words or

23 somebody else's, you've signed the statement and you've said in the

24 evidence that you've already given that its contents are accurate. But if

25 you just take, for example, Junik, which you have said in that statement

Page 10331

1 could not be entered by the Serb forces. I mean, that's just completely

2 wrong, isn't it? It was not only entered by the Serb forces, but they

3 were stationed in Junik at various points in time during the indictment

4 period of March to September.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you say as well in this statement, as it appears, that Serb

7 forces couldn't enter Gllogjan between April and the major offensive in

8 September. But -- but we know from other evidence that there was a major

9 offensive right through that area between the 9th and the 11th of August.

10 You were aware of that.

11 A. Yes, I am.

12 Q. Did you take part in that offensive at all? Were you involved in

13 the fighting between the 9th and 11th of August?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So -- so, again, help us, how does it come about in your statement

16 that it suggests that -- that the villages you've listed -- and I'll just

17 read you the words as they appear in English. Having listed the villages

18 including Gllogjan, you first of all say:

19 "Between April and September the KLA was stronger in these

20 villages than in other villages." We understand that. But then you go on

21 in the statement to say:

22 "The Serbian forces could not enter these villages during this

23 period of time."

24 I mean, that -- that's just not right, is it?

25 A. That's not correct. But in the statement I prepared yesterday,

Page 10332

1 when we made the amendments -- I was tired yesterday, as a matter of fact.

2 I couldn't look at everything point by point and study it properly,

3 because I arrived here at 2.00 and we continued working until 7.00 in the

4 evening.

5 Q. Did anybody mention to you that -- that the Trial Chamber has

6 video footage of the Serbian offensive and a map from a senior Serbian

7 official drawing the offensive of Serbian police and military running

8 right through Gllogjan and Irzniq between the 9th and the 11th of August?

9 Did anybody on the Prosecution team point that out to you at all?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Where it says in your statement "the Serbian forces could not

12 enter these villages during that -- this time," whose words are those?

13 Were they words you spoke or words that somebody else suggested to you and

14 you agreed with?

15 A. Yesterday I mentioned it several times that this has to be

16 changed, and I meant exactly this sentence. And they said, "It's not

17 important." Well, I said, "This is not my words. Even if it's not

18 important, it has to be changed."

19 Q. And it goes on in the new text to say that: "The area of the

20 canal leading to Radoniq Lake was controlled" -- I emphasize that word,

21 "controlled," -- "by the KLA except for the beginning of the blue

22 highlight near Lluka and Isniq, which was controlled by the Serbs."

23 Now, again, we have heard evidence in this case including evidence

24 from a Serb official that there were armed engagements in the area of the

25 canal from the 1st of July or the beginning of July onwards between the

Page 10333

1 KLA and Serb forces. And the suggestion I'm putting to you is that --

2 that there was in effect a disputed area of territory around there with

3 skirmishes taking place.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. And, again, were those your words as they appear in

6 the statement, or were they words that were suggested to you and that you

7 agreed with?

8 A. The lawyers insisted on a different thing. And when I saw the

9 statement, I said that many points have to be changed, because a different

10 meaning comes out of this one.

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. So some words had to be changed.

13 Q. I see. Can we turn to the question of the deployments that you've

14 described. Could we look, please, at the photograph you marked, Exhibit

15 P1217.

16 Now, I just want to orientate ourselves a little, first of all.

17 You say in your statement that you -- I want to make sure I've got this

18 absolutely accurate. Bear with me a second. That -- that to your

19 recollection, the Black Eagles was formed on the 14th of May; that you

20 joined soon after. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in paragraph 13 of your statement, you say: "Our base was

23 eventually set up in an elementary school in Gllogjan." And I want to ask

24 you about the word "eventually." How long after you joined was it that

25 you began to be based in that school? Let's take you personally, first of

Page 10334

1 all.

2 A. I can't recall exactly, but not a long time elapsed.

3 Q. Just help us if you can, please. Could it have been several weeks

4 between you joining and you basing yourself in the school?

5 A. Possibly, yes.

6 Q. You say in your statement that you left the Black Eagles at the

7 end of July and that prior to you leaving, you had for some time been

8 assigned to the villages of Voksh, Sllup, and Drenoc because of Serb

9 attacks. Correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So we're -- we're focusing on a period between May and July. Can

12 you remember so far as your period in Voksh, Sllup, and Drenoc was

13 concerned, was that during June?

14 A. I can't remember exactly. It could have been June, about

15 somewhere halfway through the month.

16 Q. And was it for several weeks?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So -- so just in terms of identifying how much time you personally

19 were spending or had spent at the building that you've marked staying

20 there, can you help us? Are we speaking about sometime between the end of

21 May and some period in June? Is that to be understood correctly or not?

22 A. Yes, more or less.

23 Q. And in terms of -- of who was there in that building, can I

24 suggest to you that there were quite a number of KLA volunteers from all

25 sorts of different types of groups and units at that school.

Page 10335

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It wasn't specifically a Black Eagles base.

3 A. I said it earlier as well. That was not a base as such, but it

4 was a place where we spent the night for some time.

5 Q. As did quite a number of other volunteers and groups of KLA

6 volunteers.

7 A. Yes. There were a lot of others.

8 Q. And do you remember a man called Bedri Shala?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. He was not involved with the Black Eagles, was he?

11 A. No, he wasn't.

12 Q. And he was conducting training there of KLA volunteers; is that

13 right?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Thank you. Those are my questions.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Emmerson, you misrepresented the 92

17 ter statement where you said that the witness joined the Black Eagles soon

18 after they were established. I think the 92 ter statement tells us that

19 on the first day it was established - that's the 14th of May - that he

20 joined it. I don't think it was of vital importance there, but paragraph

21 10 --

22 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated] Yes, I was looking at

23 the beginning of paragraph 11. It may be that I -- sorry. I was looking

24 at the beginning of paragraph 11. It may be that I misread it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It was in the beginning of paragraph 10. "I joined

Page 10336

1 the Black Eagles on the first day that it was formed."

2 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour is quite right. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, we don't need a lengthy discussion about

4 it, but just so that we have everything clear on the record.

5 Mr. Guy-Smith.

6 Mr. Haskaj, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith, who

7 is counsel for Mr. Balaj.

8 Please proceed.

9 Mr. Guy-Smith, thinking back to yesterday, could you please --

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very short.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- question very focused. Please proceed.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yesterday I was quite detailed. I thought that

13 was the criticism.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

15 Q. Mr. Haskaj, you spent a relatively short period of time in

16 training before you went to battle in Voksh; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It was, in fact, a matter of days before the pressures of the

19 attacks were such that you and members of the Black Eagles, including

20 Mr. Balaj, went to Voksh to perform your duties as a special intervention

21 unit; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you got to Voksh, you remained in that area - by that I mean

24 Voksh, Drenoc, and Sllup, those particular villages - because that is

25 where the fights were occurring and where you were needed in order to

Page 10337

1 battle; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You didn't come back to the area of Irzniq until sometime in July,

4 after you were wounded; true?

5 A. I went there only once.

6 Q. In your statement, you indicate that -- in your statement, you

7 indicate that you had a sniper rifle - that's in paragraph 20 -- I'm

8 sorry, it's in paragraph 19. Were you given special training or were you

9 one of the special soldiers who had engaged in that particular art, the

10 art of sniping, so that you had a -- a keen eye and were used for a very

11 specific purpose within the special unit?

12 A. Yes, I did use it for shooting. And that's all the training that

13 I received.

14 Q. During the period of time that you were fighting in -- in Voksh,

15 Drenoc, and Sllup in June throughout July, except for the one time that

16 you said you returned on one occasion, your commander, Idriz Balaj, was

17 there also fighting with you, wasn't he?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith --


21 Q. As a matter of fact, he was --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, when following the testimony, I have

23 difficulties in orienting myself where Voksh is exactly. But I may have

24 missed something.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, shall we go to a map?

Page 10338

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if -- if you say it's there and there, then

2 I'll find it on the map, if it's at least on one of the maps which is in

3 evidence.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Oh, it's definitely on a map in evidence, yes.


6 MR. EMMERSON: I think the witness can probably confirm those

7 areas on the west side of the main road.


9 JUDGE ORIE: The west side of the main road.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's correct.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.


13 Q. After you stopped fighting with the Black Eagles, you then

14 returned to working with the village guard, or were you working with the

15 KLA when you were back in Irzniq?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And were you then under the command of Shemsedin Cekaj?

18 A. Yes. I know that he returned to that village a little earlier.

19 Q. The Black Eagles were still -- after your return, the Black Eagles

20 were still out in the field, to your knowledge, were they not, engaged in

21 fighting in various battles that were occurring throughout the region;

22 true?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And as a matter of fact, as a unit, the Black Eagles were moving

25 in and out of the area after you returned in July wherever their abilities

Page 10339

1 and services were needed, depending on the battles that were occurring

2 from July until certainly the September offensive; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you tell us as you sit here today, if you remember, how much

5 of the time that you saw the Black Eagles, and specifically Idriz Balaj,

6 in Irzniq sitting around, shall I say, drinking coffee, as opposed to away

7 from Irzniq fighting? Do you remember how much you saw him during that

8 period of time after you were wounded?

9 A. There wasn't a single moment to pause.

10 Q. Now, you indicated in your statement or you said in your statement

11 that there -- there was no deputy commander or sub-commander, that -- that

12 Idriz Balaj was known, who was also known as the commander or Toger, was

13 the one who ran the unit. Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. He was -- and I'm using kind of a term of art here. He was the

16 first in battle and the last out of battle. He was a man who -- who

17 stayed with his soldiers and did not shirk from the responsibility of

18 fighting, did he?

19 A. That's true.

20 Q. And as a matter of fact, once again in your statement you've

21 indicated that once a shot was fired in the region that could be heard, he

22 would immediately, when you were not in a particular battle, he would

23 immediately move the special unit or -- or parts of the special unit to

24 wherever those shots were coming from in order to operate as a special

25 intervention unit to deal with the fact of the Serbian attacks. Correct?

Page 10340

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you living in Kosovo in 2002?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In your statement, paragraph 30, you discuss an assassination

5 attempt on Mr. Balaj's life in which his wife lost her leg and he had a

6 fair amount of shrapnel in his body as a result of a bomb at his home.

7 Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are you aware of the fact that during that assassination attempt

10 his wife also was with child, which she lost?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, that event was an event that was publicised in the television

13 and in newspapers, was it not? The assassination attempt on -- on

14 Idriz Balaj's life.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you saw pictures of the damaged home, as well as photographs,

17 of both Idriz Balaj and his wife on television as well as in newspaper

18 articles at the time it occurred, didn't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After the assassination attempt, Mr. Balaj, which you've also

21 indicated, was arrested and put on trial, and the trial was called the

22 Dukagjin trial; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. By that time, you had been working with him for some time in the

25 TMK, if I'm not mistaken.

Page 10341

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When he was arrested and put on trial in the Dukagjin trial, once

3 again that was a widely publicised matter throughout the country of

4 Kosovo, was it not?

5 A. Yes, it was. It's true.

6 Q. And, again, likenesses of his -- or photographs of him were put on

7 television as well as photographs of him were seen in newspapers, by you;

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And as a matter of fact, during that period of time Idriz Balaj

11 was identified as being "Toger" publicly throughout the country, was he

12 not?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'd like to turn, if I could, for a moment to

15 P1214. If we could have that up on the screen, please.

16 I'd -- I suppose we have -- well, let's do it this way.

17 Q. I'd like for, if you could, please, if you could identify a couple

18 of the other areas that are drawn on this map. And, first of all, taking

19 a look at what's identified as Shtepija Ime, that was your house; correct?

20 And that's on the left-hand side of the --

21 A. Right.

22 Q. -- of the document where you've written those words, where there's

23 a box; correct?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. And next to that was the headquarters of the KLA where

Page 10342

1 Shemsedin Cekaj was headquartered; true?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you've indicated -- you've indicated on the map "Stabi UCK" to

4 indicate where the headquarters were. Right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, turning to the other part of the diagram. There's a place

7 that says "Shkolla," and that school is a school which is up on top of a

8 hill, which is a high school. Correct?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. And that is an area which during the time was one of the places

11 where on occasion the Black Eagles would go for training; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In the area up there there's a school and there's a huge field, a

14 huge flat area in front of the school, which would be available for

15 callisthenics or war training; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Going down from -- going down from where it says "Shkolla," there

18 is another place where you have drawn a -- an area which I understand

19 is -- is that what you were saying is the small house where the Black

20 Eagles were ultimately stationed in Irzniq?

21 A. Yes, they stayed there for a few days. I can't recall exactly.

22 However, after the unit returned from the Voksh area, they stayed there

23 for a few days.

24 Q. Very well. Directly across from -- from that area, which I take

25 it is -- is a road, there is nothing. And as a matter of fact, there is a

Page 10343

1 wide open field there which is another area which was available for

2 military training and manoeuvres; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That -- that was an area that was used by both the Black Eagles on

5 occasion as well as by the local KLA who were in the village of Irzniq;

6 true?

7 A. Yes, that's true. That's where military training took place,

8 including other soldiers as well as the Black Eagles on occasions.

9 Q. Now, between the place on that map where you have the word

10 "Gllogjan" and you have the word "Deqan," in that area was a mosque;

11 true?

12 And perhaps with the assistance --

13 A. The mosque is ...

14 Q. With the -- perhaps with the assistance of the usher, we could

15 have him mark this and I will get a new identification number.

16 A. This is where the mosque is. And over there is a surgery, a

17 doctor's surgery.

18 Q. You -- you've drawn two circles, one in which you've put an "A,"

19 which I -- I take it stands for the beginning of "ambulance"; correct?

20 A. Yes, correct. That's where the surgery is. And the mosque,

21 further down.

22 Q. During the month of August 1998, you were in Irzniq; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. During that period of time -- and you were just speaking a moment

25 ago with Mr. Emmerson concerning an offensive that occurred in early

Page 10344

1 August. During that period of time - and by that I'm referring to the

2 first two weeks, for example, in August - you did not see Idriz Balaj in

3 that area - and by that I mean -- by that I mean in Irzniq - on a constant

4 basis, did you?

5 A. I can't remember seeing him there at that time.

6 Q. Do you remember how often you saw him or if you saw him at all

7 during the month of August in Irzniq?

8 A. I can't remember ever having seen him after my return from Voksh.

9 Q. There came a time when the manpower of the Black Eagles was

10 seriously -- seriously depleted. I'm wondering whether you know anything

11 at all about that. You may, you may not, because you were no longer a

12 Black Eagle. But there came a time when the number of men who were

13 fighting in the Black Eagles, which went from the number which you've

14 mentioned apart from the casualties that occurred, went down to about four

15 or five men. Do you know about that? And if you do, fine; if you don't,

16 that's fine.

17 A. As far as I know, the numbers were reduced.

18 Q. And by the time of the September offensive, the -- the numbers of

19 Black Eagles were about five. Do you know about that? And those were

20 Naim Dashi, Jusuf Osmoni, Nagip Qelaj, and Agim Ramosaj, and, of course,

21 Idriz Balaj. Those were -- those were the men left standing.

22 A. I do not know this exactly name by name, but I know that the

23 numbers were very small. It was a very small number.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, before we continue, the -- you've done

25 with the sketch which was marked by the witness?

Page 10345


2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it needs a number. And it ...?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked for

4 identification as D204.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that you want to tender that,

6 Mr. Guy-Smith?

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do.

8 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, Mr. Di Fazio?

9 MR. DI FAZIO: No, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- then D204 is admitted into evidence.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Those are my questions.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

14 Mr. Troop.

15 MR. TROOP: No questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No questions.

17 Mr. Di Fazio.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: No re-examination, if Your Honours please.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Haskaj, you said that you had to go to Voksh. Do

22 you remember exactly when that was?

23 A. I cannot recall the exact date, but it must have been during the

24 first half of June.

25 JUDGE ORIE: How long did you stay there?

Page 10346

1 A. Until the end of July, approximately.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I mean, you said you were wounded, you

3 returned, and I think your mother looked after you. Is that correctly

4 understood?

5 A. First of all, I had to go to hospital to have the wound cleaned

6 and to receive treatment, after which time I returned home and my family

7 looked after me, that is, my mother and my sisters.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And your -- that was the family home in the

9 centre of the village of ...?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Irzniq?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Now, quite a lot of questions were put to you about

14 whether you saw Mr. Balaj in that area. You said, "I don't remember that

15 I saw him in August." What was your daily life in the month of August?

16 Were you staying in the village? Were you ...?

17 A. After I recovered, almost every day I took part in fighting in

18 villages such as Prejlep, Carrabreg, and some other villages.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So much of the time you were not in Irzniq.

20 A. Well, during the fighting for two or three or four hours I took

21 part in that fighting. Then I went back, rested, and then returned.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You returned every day to Irzniq?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So even when you were participating in the fighting

25 in early August, as you told Mr. Emmerson, you would return every night

Page 10347

1 home?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were you during this period of time in the

4 month of August, were you aware about where exactly the unit you belonged

5 to before - that's the Black Eagles - where they were participating in any

6 combat activity? I mean, would you meet them? Would you see them when

7 you were on the battleground in -- in Prilep? Or did you know anything

8 about where they were engaged in combat activity?

9 A. No, I did not know where they were. They were participating in

10 fighting, but as to where, I don't know. They were wherever the Serb

11 forces were attacking.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then they should have been at many places

13 at the same time, isn't it? Or was that just Serb forces attacking at one

14 place?

15 A. In the places where the attacks were the strongest and where there

16 was more need for the Black Eagles to support, to offer support, or where

17 there were families that needed protection and they had to fight against

18 the Serbs so that the population had a chance to withdraw or go somewhere

19 else. But I couldn't tell you where exactly, what village, they fought,

20 because I was not with them.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Did you, apart from, as you tell us now, being aware

22 that they were engaged in combat, did you ever see any part of this unit

23 or the whole of the unit during these times?

24 A. I saw members of the unit, but not the whole unit.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And where did you see them? Do you remember?

Page 10348

1 A. I remember seeing one of my co-villagers -- or some of my

2 co-villagers, because some of them were members of the unit. And when

3 they came to rest, it happened that I saw some of them.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us anything about the frequency with

5 which you saw them resting in the place where you lived or the place where

6 you were.

7 A. Well, during that period, I probably saw them two or three times.

8 One or two of the soldiers that were members of that unit.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, in paragraph 25 of your statement - and I'll

10 just read that to you: "The second (or new) Black Eagles headquarters was

11 set up only 400 metres from my house. It was a single-storey house, but

12 it was quite large and had a lot of rooms."

13 And from the early part of paragraph 25, I take it that you're

14 describing the situation after you had left the Black Eagles.

15 Answering the questions I just put to you, you gave me the

16 impression that it was now and then you'd see an individual member of the

17 Black Eagles; whereas, in paragraph 25 it very much looks as the Black

18 Eagles being based in Glodjane in a structural way rather than just one or

19 two of them going home for rest.

20 A. I said then that they were based in Irzniq, but of course during

21 combat activities they did not have time to stay there, because they were

22 participating in the fighting. One or two members of this unit that were

23 my co-villagers, they would return to the village to rest, as I said, or

24 maybe they were wounded. So that's how I saw them.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for those answers.

Page 10349

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.


3 MR. DI FAZIO: I think there's just a typo in the transcript.

4 Line 25 of the previous page, page 63. I think you said Irzniq, not

5 Glodjane.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, as a matter of fact he said "Gllogjan" and the

7 witness said "Irzniq."

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see. Well --

9 JUDGE ORIE: We're now looking at what line?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: 25. 25 of page 63.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If I misspoke, then -- of course, I was

12 referring to paragraph 25, which doesn't speak about Glodjane. So I

13 apologise for having misspoken there.

14 Have the questions by the Bench raised any need for further

15 questions by the parties?

16 Then, Mr. Haskaj, this concludes your testimony in this court.

17 I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and answering all

18 the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and

19 I'd like to wish you a safe trip home again.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Am I allowed to greet the commander?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, greeting commanders is not something -- you

23 appeared here as a witness, and from your -- what you just said, I do

24 understand that you would wish to do that, and I think that would be

25 enough for one of the accused here to understand.

Page 10350

1 Thank you very much.

2 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

3 courtroom.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then progress was made, I take it, that during the

6 examination of the witness -- well, further progress was made. What would

7 be the suggestion of the parties how to proceed to see whether we can ...?

8 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm sorry not to be able to respond

9 decisively and conclusively.

10 What I anticipate is that we might be able to put Mr. Sandhu in

11 the witness box for a very short period of time just to deal with one or

12 two matters to confirm his statement and deal with one matter of

13 clarification.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that already seems to answer a couple of

15 questions. I don't know whether the other Defence counsel are joining.

16 Because -- first of all, the first question was whether Mr. Sandhu should

17 be restored on the witness list.

18 From your observation, I take it that there's no major objection

19 against that. Or -- or would it be to find out whether there's --

20 MR. EMMERSON: No. I'm sorry, because of the way in which this

21 matter has arisen --


23 MR. EMMERSON: -- where we've been obviously taking instructions

24 from clients on the changes to the last witness's 92 ter statement --


Page 10351

1 MR. EMMERSON: -- whilst at the same time trying to resolve this

2 matter, and so we're -- the emphasis is -- is on the preface to my last

3 remarks, which is I'm not in a position to respond conclusively at this

4 stage, but what we would anticipate may happen is that the witness could

5 be recalled to give -- give evidence live.

6 But may I -- I haven't consulted with my colleagues. I don't know

7 what the attitude of the co-accused are.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We're not talking about Mr. Sandhu.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly. It's not recalled. That's a mistake.

10 Re-introduced as a witness.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Re-introduced as a witness. Because let me just ...

12 One second, please.

13 You said earlier, "What I anticipate is that we might be able to

14 put Mr. Sandhu in the witness box for a very short period of time."


16 JUDGE ORIE: Just to deal with one -- so you're considering

17 whether you --

18 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly so. I'm not --

19 JUDGE ORIE: It's not a suggestion but something you'd like to --

20 MR. EMMERSON: No, we'd like to have an opportunity to just

21 consider it with co-accused counsel and with the Prosecution.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And how much time would you need to far?

23 MR. EMMERSON: In terms of resolving our position, ten minutes

24 would be more than sufficient. I don't know whether there's any

25 representative of the Prosecution immediately available who will deal with

Page 10352

1 this.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Who will deal with Mr. Sandhu?

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Re. Mr. Re will deal with Mr. Sandhu.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that -- but not until after -- I'm not

5 making any suggestion until after I've heard Mr. Guy-Smith, who is on his

6 feet.

7 Mr. Guy-Smith.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think that's probably a -- a sensible

9 suggestion, given the state of affairs. And I do have another very brief

10 matter to raise.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would, once again, request that any and all

13 proofing notes that occurred after a five-hour meeting with the

14 Prosecution be forwarded to us. We've received none. With regard to the

15 last witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's on the record as well.

17 Mr. Troop.

18 MR. TROOP: Your Honour, you will note that Mr. Harvey is not

19 present in court, though he is available. And I can speak to him. For my

20 own part, I would appreciate a slightly longer period than ten minutes in

21 which to discuss the matter over the phone with him.


23 MR. TROOP: And the --

24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock. I suggest that we take our

25 second break now; that we would resume at 20 minutes past 12.00; and that

Page 10353

1 we would then have one hour and 25 minutes remaining. And if parties

2 could agree or if the Chamber would determine so, that we would then use

3 that time to hear the testimony of Mr. Sandhu, if he will be restored on

4 the list and whether that would be 92 bis or 92 ter, I take it - but of

5 course I'm not quite sure - that 92 ter might even go quicker than 92 bis,

6 because we first would then need an officer being appointed by the

7 Registrar to take a attestation and perhaps 92 ter would go by far

8 quicker.

9 Or is that wrongly understood, Mr. Di Fazio?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I can agree with -- with the general

11 observation it's going to be faster if it's 93 ter [sic]. But I don't

12 want to pin my colleagues down not having discussed the matter in detail

13 with them.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll hear then from you -- by the way, you

15 are going so quickly you are even moving to 93 ter.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm still talking about 92 ter.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: It's a linguistic tick.


20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Before we take the break if we could deal with one

21 housekeeping matter.

22 Some months ago we were dealing with the issue of height --

23 specifically with the issue of height of my client. We have received from

24 the Detention Unit and it is now in e-court as 2D000767, a document that

25 was created by the Detention Unit that indicates his height and weight and

Page 10354

1 other physical characteristics. I've spoken with the Prosecution about

2 this. I would seek an MFI number and seek its admission.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

5 identification as D205.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 And then we'll have a look at the results.

8 Mr. Troop.

9 MR. TROOP: Your Honours, there's just one final thing. Could I

10 make a request to the Prosecution in relation to Mr. Sandhu, if there are

11 any notes made, investigator's notes made in relation to the incident in

12 which he describes and which is at issue, whether those could be disclosed

13 to us.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you can't answer the question at this

15 moment, Mr. Di Fazio.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I will certainly convey the matter.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that this will be part of the

18 communications.

19 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Just one more matter. I misled Defence counsel.

21 It's in fact Mr. Dutertre who's dealing with this -- this matter and not

22 Mr. Re, as I mentioned earlier. So any inquiries, if -- in the break,

23 should they be made to the Prosecutors, Mr. Dutertre is the man.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre is the man. That, I think, is a good

25 line to start the break.

Page 10355

1 We'll have a break until 25 minutes past 12.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could the parties inform the Chamber in relation to

5 restoring Mr. Sandhu to the witness list whether there's any agreement.

6 MR. EMMERSON: There is agreement, and there's no objection to him

7 being restored to the witness list.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Dutertre, I was informed that the witness

9 is waiting outside, which is not needed if there is a 92 bis statement.

10 For 92 ter, however, he should enter the courtroom. Is that what you

11 suggest?

12 Yes, you're nodding "yes."

13 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

14 courtroom.

15 Are there any issues about a 92 ter approach to this witness?

16 That means that he does not -- I mean, until now we have just restored him

17 on the list.

18 MR. EMMERSON: No, I --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, we now know that Mr. Dutertre has -- I

20 asked him -- is suggesting that we would have a 92 ter witness rather than

21 a witness who viva voce is --


23 JUDGE ORIE: And that's --

24 MR. EMMERSON: Entirely acceptable.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, then the next issue is whether, in

Page 10356

1 relation to the statement given by the witness, there's any dispute

2 about -- I'm not suggesting that there should be, but just to take things

3 step by step.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ORIE: And from your silence, I take it that there's no

6 dispute about the admissibility of the statement under Rule 92 ter.

7 Yes. One -- one second. Could you please sit down for a moment,

8 yes.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: As I said, let's take it step by step.

11 First of all, the Chamber grants the application to restore

12 Harjit Sandhu to the witness list. And that's, I think, the first

13 decision we'll have to take.

14 Now, Mr. Sandhu, you entered into the courtroom. Could you please

15 stand.

16 Mr. Sandhu, before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of

17 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

18 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. May I

19 invite you to make that solemn declaration.

20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

21 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Sandhu.

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.


25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, a decision on admission of the 92 ter

Page 10357

1 statement of Mr. Sandhu will be taken after you've asked the relevant

2 questions and once the statement as such has been marked for

3 identification.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

6 Examination by Mr. Dutertre:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sandhu, I will first check your identity.

8 You are called Harjit Sandhu. You were born on the 1st of January, 1956

9 at Amristar in India -- at Amristar in India, and you are -- Amristar --

10 and you are a team leader in the ICTY. Is this true?

11 A. Yes, Your Honour, it's correct.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although on paper it's Amritsar instead of

13 Amristar. I take it that Amritsar is better known to me as a place in

14 India as Amristar.

15 THE WITNESS: Exactly, Your Honour. I will pronounce it. It is

16 Amritsar.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much. Please proceed.

18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Sandhu, I will first ask for a document, 2148 of the 65 ter

20 list. And perhaps the usher could bring a little file with the 92 ter and

21 annexes document. If it could be brought here. 2143 of the 65 ter list.

22 Yes, that's it.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we have this on the screen as well in

24 e-court.

25 There it is.

Page 10358

1 Madam Usher, if you would ....


3 Q. Mr. Sandhu, did you sign this interview on the 5th of November,

4 and is it truthful? Does it tell the truth?

5 A. Yes, Your Honour. I signed it and these are my signatures and

6 everything I said there is correct.

7 Q. The second question, Mr. Sandhu. On the matters which are --

8 which were discussed in this paper where asked from you today in this

9 room, would you make the same answers as those which you made for your

10 interview?

11 A. Yes, Your Honour, I will make exactly the same answers if I am

12 asked here in live.


14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could this interview

15 92 ter be admitted, and as well as the two annexes with a reference of the

16 last page with numbers of 65 ter list 988 and 989 of the 65 ter list.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you want them to have -- to have them under

18 one exhibit number, so being attachments to the statement and be included

19 in the same number assigned or separate?

20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Separate. Separate, please.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Registrar, the first annex, being the

22 exhumation file in the case of Skender Kuqi, would receive what number?

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

24 identification as P1218.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

Page 10359

1 Then the -- second, the autopsy report on the body of

2 Skender Kuqi.

3 And, Mr. Dutertre, I have seen a provisional one which appears to

4 be part of annex 1 and -- but I take it that you are referring to the

5 autopsy report prepared by - let me just look at it again - by

6 Dr. Morcillo. Is that correctly understood?

7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Precisely. There's the

8 anthropologist who has given his own findings before the report, and then

9 there is the post-mortem report of the pathologist also, which comes

10 after.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I made a mistake. I said "autopsy report."

12 There are two. But the first one actually is a report by a forensic

13 anthropologist, Mr. Jose Pablo Baraybar, and that's part of the first

14 annex. Is that correctly understood?

15 And on the second annex is the --

16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Precisely.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- autopsy by Dr. Morcillo, a forensic medical

18 doctor.

19 This second, then, the forensic report would receive what number,

20 Mr. Registrar?

21 THE REGISTRAR: P1219, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This is one number, ERN. Only one

25 number.

Page 10360

1 JUDGE ORIE: Then the statement has not yet received a number.

2 That's the 92 ter statement.

3 Yes, Mr. Registrar, the 92 ter statement of Mr. Sandhu, which is

4 the statement given on the 5th of November, 2007, would receive what

5 number?

6 THE REGISTRAR: P1220, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any objection against admission of

8 either the 92 ter statement or the two annexes to it?

9 Then P1218, P1219, and P1220 are admitted into evidence.

10 Mr. Dutertre, is there any need to -- for examination of the

11 witness on your part?

12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I have a few brief questions to ask

13 from the witness.

14 Q. Mr. Sandhu, approximately what was the age of Genc Kuqi, the son

15 of Skender Kuqi, on the day he brought you to the grave of his father to

16 be exhumated, for the exhumation?

17 A. Your Honours, he should be something like around 20. Maybe

18 plus/minus could be, but around 20 I would put it.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Was he hesitant to find the grave of his

20 father, Skender Kuqi?

21 A. Your Honours, he was absolutely not hesitant. He was, rather,

22 very helpful, cooperative, because he had already lodged a complaint with

23 the UNMIK and when he came to know that we were going to look into that,

24 he was excited. So it was not only us trying to locate him. He himself

25 was keen.

Page 10361

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you can understand these questions in two

2 different ways: Whether there was any hesitation at -- pointing at which

3 was the grave of his father; or, as you answered it, whether he was

4 hesitant to cooperate with ...

5 Could you also focus on the second, whether he -- he was at any

6 moment hesitant when he pointed at the grave of his father.

7 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, if I respond like this that -- if I'd

8 rather -- the way we proceeded chronologically, it will explain it

9 clearly. And later on I can clarify if there is anything.

10 When we picked him up and we arrived at the place, there were

11 already his family members there. And immediately -- he said "stop." I

12 was driving. He said, "Stop here. We have reached." And then straight

13 away those -- his -- his mother and one or two uncles were around the

14 grave, and he straight away told me that, "This is the grave of my

15 father."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.

18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. This was indeed the meaning of my question. You said, at line 3,

20 page 77, that "some members of his family were present." And in your

21 interview, 92 ter paragraph 9, you say, "There were about eight to ten

22 members of the family were present." How do you know that they were all

23 members of the family of Genc Kuqi.

24 A. The minute I stopped the car, I asked him, "Who are these people."

25 As a law enforcement officer, my first concern was is there any objection

Page 10362

1 from the local villagers or something, is there a law and order problem.

2 So the moment I saw them, I asked him, "Who are these people?" He said,

3 "They are my family. My mother is there and some uncles from," if I

4 remember correctly, from his mother's side there were those people.

5 Q. Thank you. Did he speak to them? Did he gather with them? Did

6 Genc Kuqi talk to them and go towards them?

7 A. After stopping, first he went to them. They were almost -- they

8 were right on the road. And after stopping, he straight away went to that

9 group and talked to them and then they all -- in fact, it was within 4 or

10 5 metres of the grave, they were all standing there.

11 Am I clear on that point or do I elaborate it further?

12 Q. No, no, thank you very much. This is sufficient.

13 You were present, Mr. Sandhu, during all the exhumation

14 operations. Were other people than the OMPF representatives of the

15 missing persons of the UNMIK, were other people, did they have access to

16 the body?

17 A. Your Honours, when we reached there and he pointed out that this

18 is the grave and then OMPF official Patrice Gagnon, he was with me, then

19 he said these family members are allowed to attend but they have to stay a

20 few metres away from that.

21 So during the actual exhumation, it was only the OMPF people,

22 myself, standing there as a -- as a guard or as a coordinator between the

23 family, and -- and the family members were about 10 metres -- kept 10

24 metres away. And around the grave only the OMPF staff and their diggers

25 and myself were there. Thank you.

Page 10363

1 Q. A follow-up question: When the OMPF left with the body, nobody

2 else than the OMPF personnel had touched the body or manipulated the body?

3 Is that accurate?

4 A. That's correct. Right from the moment we started the first

5 digging, there was no one other than the OMPF people who had access. So

6 right throughout till they -- they'd finished their job, till then no one

7 else had access. Only when the remains were taken out, labeled on the

8 bag, the wife of Skender Kuqi wanted to do a prayer and she was allowed

9 just to come near and not -- not very close, and then she bent down and

10 prayed. And after that the OMPF people left. Thank you.

11 Q. Thank you for your answer. Last -- one but last point. I would

12 like to have document 1218, last page, on the screens, please.

13 And this should be 1219, unless I'm mistaken. We are seeing

14 now -- so this is my mistake. I should like to see 1219, last page,

15 please. That's it. Thank you.

16 Mr. Sandhu, these photographs, do they actually show what you have

17 seen on that particular day, on the 9th of March, 2004, when the

18 exhumation took place, the body of Skender Kuqi was exhumated?

19 A. Yes, Your Honours, these are exactly the pictures. And I was

20 standing hardly one -- maximum 1 or 2 metres from the boundary of this

21 picture. And these are the same pictures which were taken that day, and I

22 very clearly remember this label, "SSA 01," and then they labeled it and

23 one person went down -- the coffin was full of water even above that and

24 it was taken out. And these is exactly the same pictures, I can

25 recognise. Thank you.

Page 10364

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I have no other questions to ask,

3 Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson

6 Q. Mr. Sandhu, just one or more matters very briefly for the sake of

7 clarification.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sandhu, you will now be cross-examined by

9 Mr. Emmerson, who is counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.


11 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. Just to repeat that, I've just got one or two

12 matters for clarification to ask you about.

13 In paragraph 9 of your statement, you record that though there

14 were family members present, you did not specifically ask them their

15 relationships with Skender Kuqi. Did you have conversations with any of

16 the other family members that you recorded at the time?

17 A. Your Honours, I only spoke to Genc Kuqi, because we already

18 knew -- the team knew Genc Kuqi so he was our only contact. And when

19 Genc Kuqi told me they are his family members, I did not speak to any one

20 of them, until in the end, when I just gave them my general condolences.

21 And that was not addressed to any one, but to the entire family, I said,

22 "I'm sorry for all this we have to do."

23 Q. I see. And all the information that you had and you were working

24 on was information that you had obtained from Genc Kuqi alone.

25 A. Yes, Your Honour, that is correct.

Page 10365

1 Q. Yes. You gave us an estimate of his age. I think we have a

2 record from an interview that was given by him to the Office of the

3 Prosecution in 2002 that puts his date of birth as the 2nd of October,

4 1982, which would, unless my calculations are incorrect, I -- I'm sure

5 somebody will tell me that they are -- make him 15 at the date of the

6 summer of 1998.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Are we talking about the summer of 1998 or are we

8 talking about before?

9 MR. EMMERSON: Unless my -- unless my calculations are incorrect,

10 Genc Kuqi on that date of birth would have been 15 years old in the summer

11 of 1998.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Sandhu gave us an estimate of --

13 MR. EMMERSON: 20 -- roughly 20 at the time of the exhumation.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which was not in 1998.

15 MR. EMMERSON: No, which was in 2004.



18 Q. Were you familiar with the statement that he'd made in 2002?

19 A. As the -- as the investigator on that team, we all discussed about

20 the entire case of Skender Kuqi.

21 Q. Yes. Just one question, Mr. Sandhu. It follows from that, does

22 it, that you were aware that he had not been present when his father was

23 buried, because that's what he says in his witness statement. I'll just

24 read you the sentence:

25 "I was not permitted to attend the funeral because it was

Page 10366

1 considered to be too dangerous to travel to that area."

2 So we can take it that you were aware that he had not in fact

3 attended the funeral.

4 A. I don't exactly remember that, but my -- my task was clearly that

5 I have to coordinate with him. And when he said that these are my

6 relatives and they were all there, I didn't ask him whether he attended

7 the original funeral, because I never asked him that question, Your

8 Honours.

9 Q. No, but -- but you can take it from me - and I'll be corrected if

10 I'm wrong - that that's what he had told the Prosecution in his 2002

11 witness statement and presumably, as you've just told us, you would have

12 been familiar with that.

13 A. I would say it this way: That I never personally interviewed

14 or -- interviewed or took statement from him. The other team

15 investigators did take. And the case as a whole, we did discuss several

16 times.

17 Q. I see. But you've told us he was the sole source of your

18 information as to which was the right grave. How many graves were there

19 in Dubovik cemetery?

20 A. It was full of snow, and I won't be able to count, because snow

21 was quite heavy. And only on this grave and there was one nearby visible.

22 And we did not venture further into the graveyard to see. And this was --

23 this was one of the very few -- in the beginning itself, this grave was

24 there.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 10367

1 A. And they had already -- the family had already prepared it before

2 we reached there. They were already standing around that.

3 Q. I see. And --

4 A. So I take it that obviously his family members must have told him.

5 His mother was there. His uncles were there. So if they were during the

6 original burial -- I know Grbala [phoen] family were from my -- my

7 knowledge of the case and as a team leader, I have -- I know almost every

8 witness a little bit, as a summary about everything. I know Grbala family

9 is from Dubovik. That is why the family -- that body was buried there.

10 Q. Yes. Please, I'm not asking you to -- to give broader

11 information.

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. I'm concentrating on the position as far as Genc Kuqi is

14 concerned.

15 And -- and finally this: You say in your statement you don't

16 recall there being any marker on the grave as you saw it which identified

17 it as being Skender Kuqi's grave.

18 A. Yes, you are right.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I don't remember that.

21 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Those just were the matters of clarification

22 I wanted to seek.


24 Mr. Guy-Smith.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have no questions.

Page 10368

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Troop.

2 MR. TROOP: No questions either, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it from any absence of questions there

4 that although it's not fully documented that the body that was exhumed is

5 the same body as is the subject of the autopsy report.

6 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I'm reluctant at this stage on behalf of

7 myself or other counsel to make any formal concession which is not --


9 MR. EMMERSON: -- currently in the agreed facts. We will

10 obviously study the material.


12 MR. EMMERSON: But --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we see quite some similarity in the -- in the

14 forensic anthropologist's December 2004 description of the body compared

15 to the autopsy report that was made in -- no, well, to be quite honest ...

16 I'm looking at it.

17 Mr. Dutertre, perhaps you could help us out. Yes.

18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The autopsy was signed April the

19 12th, 2004.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you inform us, because I'm -- I'm

22 thinking in terms of who took the body, where, and it appears - but

23 perhaps it's an attachment to your statement, Mr. Sandhu.

24 Are you aware - because this is -- although it's an annex to your

25 statement, the preliminary report on a case by Jose Pablo Baraybar,

Page 10369

1 forensic anthropologist. Could you tell us exactly who gave to whom the

2 body.

3 It first went to the autopsy person and then he later then said --

4 how did it finally end up in the hands of the forensic anthropologist?

5 Are you aware of that?

6 A. Your Honour, OMPF personnel were there, they were the ones who

7 were doing the exhumation.


9 A. I clearly remember Patrice Gagnon, he was the person who was

10 speaking to me. He belonged to the same organisation as Jose Pablo

11 Baraybar. He was -- we can say almost he was deputy to

12 Jose Pablo Baraybar. So when he picked up the body, he was in charge of

13 that. And it is the same organisation in the OMPF when he marked it as

14 SSA 01, so after that that body is taken -- within the OMPF, who did it,

15 who was assigned particular part, that, I think, only OMPF should be able

16 to clarify that. But for me it was enough that OMPF had taken the body

17 and this report was given to us by the OMPF.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we first see a autopsy report which is

19 dated -- autopsy dated 12th of April. And then we see the forensic

20 anthropologist giving a preliminary report on the findings of the

21 post-mortem examination of a body identified as Skender Kuqi, yes, which

22 is dated the -- December 2004.

23 And I'm -- I'm asking myself, Mr. Dutertre, how to interpret

24 everything, because there might be an issue, at least, that we cannot

25 exclude for that in -- if we listen to the questions put to the witness

Page 10370

1 by -- by Mr. Emmerson, that matters such as injuries or measurements, to

2 the extent that they are the same in the two reports, that seems to be

3 easily explained because the second report -- the December 2004 report

4 says that it's based on the earlier autopsy report.

5 Is that how we have to understand it?

6 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, this is a

7 personal observation. But from the knowledge I have, the anthropologist

8 is present during the autopsy and a difference in dates can be explained

9 by the fact that the autopsy report was typed in April; where --

10 whereas -- that's just an observation.

11 THE INTERPRETER: If people speak together, the interpreters are

12 totally unable - unable to interpret, please.

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Previous translation continues] ...

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, it was not without reason that the

15 interpreters said two times "unable."

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Understood.

18 I would object to Mr. Dutertre testifying about the manner in

19 which examinations are performed.


21 MR. GUY-SMITH: There is no evidence of that at this time.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And he's not testifying. What he says is

23 that --

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: From the knowledge --

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- is that --

Page 10371

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. From the -- the language is: "From the

2 knowledge I have the anthropologist is present during the autopsy. And a

3 difference in dates can be explained by the fact that the autopsy report

4 was typed in April." And then afterwards -- and then he -- he puts in the

5 language "that's just an observation." But the information given to the

6 Chamber is factual in nature.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber understands this as not personal

8 observation of Mr. Dutertre but what he -- what he thinks - not more than

9 that - that has happened.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Which sometimes guides us on how to establish

12 matters. Sometimes a starting point. If someone says, "Well, that

13 happens quite a couple of times that my information is that," et cetera,

14 et cetera, and then you can more focus better on to establish or avoid the

15 issue.

16 Mr. Dutertre, I -- I was just trying to -- to understand the --

17 the two reports in their context. Mr. Dutertre, you would certainly agree

18 with me that the presence of the anthropologist during the autopsy does

19 not appear from this evidence which -- this is evidence admitted.

20 Now could we ask the witness: Do you have any further knowledge

21 as to how the anthropologist who made the report, which is an annex to

22 your statement, apart from, as he says in his report, the discussion and

23 the conclusions based on the original autopsy report, do you know anything

24 about whether he worked exclusively on the basis of the report, whether he

25 has seen the body, whether he was present during the autopsy? Do you have

Page 10372

1 any information about that?

2 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I will -- I would try to explain it as

3 clearly as I remember. I had another colleague investigator Howard

4 Tucker, who was dealing with this issue. And in between I assisted him.

5 That time I was not the investigations team leader. So I was one of the

6 investigators. And when this report did not come for quite some time,

7 then Howard started out telling, amongst the investigators, "We need to

8 get in touch with that."

9 JUDGE ORIE: You say "this report." Are you talking about autopsy

10 report or --

11 THE WITNESS: Both, Your Honour. Both.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Autopsy report.

13 THE WITNESS: So then I remember Howard talking to Jose Pablo

14 Baraybar and trying to get -- so Jose Pablo, if I remember correctly, he

15 did say, "Of course, Howard is the person who knows it directly." Mine is

16 what I heard from him. And my desk was next to his desk. We were sitting

17 that time together in the same room. So then he -- Jose Pablo told him

18 that the report from -- the post-mortem, the first one, has come and I

19 have to add my report on that and I have seen the body. It will be done.

20 So this is what I heard. I -- I can't base it on any -- any documentary

21 evidence.

22 And later on this -- both the -- both the reports were put in

23 evidence together by Howard. And then he circulated to the team that,

24 okay, this is the autopsy report and he circulated this as a combined one.

25 So Jose Pablo Baraybar's report, as well as the other one,

Page 10373

1 released to us. But these are, of course, definitely two different

2 reports. And to my understanding, Jose Pablo Baraybar was there present

3 when this examination was done, not in the Dubovik village in the grave,

4 but in the -- wherever this in the mortuary the examination was done.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And that's based on what you heard from your

6 colleague at the time? Is that correctly understood? Because you said

7 "to your understanding." And that understanding is based on -- on what

8 you learned from Howard?

9 THE WITNESS: You are right, Your Honour. That is what I heard

10 from him. And in a general discussion, not addressed to me; like, just

11 as -- in the room, general discussion, type of thing.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

13 Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need to put further

14 questions to the witness?

15 If not, then this concludes your evidence, Mr. Sandhu. Usually I

16 thank witnesses for coming the long way to The Hague, but I think that

17 would not be appropriate at this moment. Nevertheless, I would like to

18 thank you for coming to court and to answer questions put to you by the

19 parties and by the Bench.

20 Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You are excused.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's on another matter, Your Honour.

Page 10374

1 JUDGE ORIE: It's on another matter.

2 Well, we have some time left, so other matters are welcome at this

3 point.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's been suggested by the registrar that there

5 may be some information contained in D205 that should be confidential,

6 because it identifies certain matters with regard to the facility at UNDU.

7 And I had been asked to put it under seal and I'm asking at this point

8 that that document be put under seal.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The whole of the document to be put under seal?

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.


12 Mr. Registrar, since there are no objections by the Prosecution,

13 D205 should be under seal.

14 Is there any other matter at this moment to be raised?

15 Mr. Re, you are entering the courtroom at the moment when I asked

16 the parties whether there's any other matter to be raised at this moment.

17 MR. RE: Yes, that's why I'm here.


19 MR. RE: I'm here.

20 Witness scheduling. If I could raise those matters with the --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Can we do that in open court or should we --

22 because there were -- perhaps there may be protective measures still to be

23 granted.

24 MR. RE: There's one -- one matter in relation to the Human Rights

25 Watch witness, Mr. Abrahams --

Page 10375

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm aware of that. Yes.

2 MR. RE: That's not a matter requiring closed -- protective

3 measures.

4 There's one -- there's two witnesses we're trying to get -- or who

5 are obtaining travel documents who may require protective measures. We

6 don't have an application yet from them. So if the names need to be

7 mentioned, we would certainly do that in private session.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First let me -- because everything comes in so

9 quickly.

10 Mr. Abrahams you applied for admission under 92 bis or ter?

11 MR. RE: 92 -- 92 ter.

12 Mr. Abrahams, the situation is we've been trying to get him --

13 we've been trying to get him to The Hague for some time. We were trying

14 to get him in October, but he had to go to Gaza with Human Rights Watch

15 and didn't return until the last week of October.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's, I think, in your --

17 MR. RE: Yes. And then embarked upon a -- a business tour with

18 the Human Rights Watch of the United States.

19 We were trying -- we put in an application for videolink next

20 Monday or, alternatively, for the Trial Chamber to sit the following

21 Monday --


23 MR. RE: -- to hear his -- his testimony.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm -- I'm, as a matter of fact - and my

25 colleague Judges, as far as I can speak for them as well -

Page 10376


2 JUDGE ORIE: We are approximately halfway reading his 65 ter

3 statement. We still have to make up our mind on whether it is -- whether

4 a videolink is appropriate and whether -- so we first read it and we -- we

5 expect to give a decision first thing tomorrow morning if we have reached

6 any conclusion. But, of course, not until we have heard from the Defence

7 whether there are any -- whether any objections.

8 What I intended to say more or less is that by tomorrow morning we

9 would be -- we would have finished our reading. So therefore perhaps it

10 will be a good idea to hear from the Defence to the extent that they're

11 able, because I think the application has been filed yesterday only, to

12 hear from the Defence whether there is --

13 MR. RE: Sorry. There is an update, which I should inform the

14 Trial Chamber --


16 MR. RE: -- and parties about first. That is simply this: Human

17 Rights Watch yesterday -- there's a time difference, of course -- informed

18 us that Mr. Abrahams would be in Los Angeles on Monday. The following

19 Monday they said he would either be in San Francisco or New York but he

20 would not be able to travel to The Hague until the Tuesday, the 20th but

21 could testify by videolink from their office. And I think the tests are

22 being done on the Monday, the 19th, or next Monday which is the 12th from

23 Los Angeles. I'm sorry that -- that's--

24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's on the record. Of course, the 20th

25 is -- is, as a matter of fact, reserved for, I think, 98 bis applications

Page 10377

1 rather than to hear any further testimony.

2 MR. RE: No, I understand. But that's the -- that's where we are

3 with Human Rights Watch and in terms of getting the witnesses -- the

4 witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the technical aspect.

6 Mr. Emmerson.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I can put our position simply at this stage,

8 which is we do not accept that the requirements of Rule 81 bis are made

9 out.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you are not thinking in terms of 98

11 bis. 92 ter or videolink?

12 MR. EMMERSON: No, I'm concerned about videolink at this stage.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's -- that --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me -- I think you said 98 bis or --

15 MR. EMMERSON: I meant to say 81 bis, which is what I think I

16 said. So far as videolink is concerned, we say that the test isn't met.

17 There are also substantial objections to the admissibility of the

18 material and opinion evidence contained within Mr. Abraham's statements

19 which will need to be the subject in due course of a motion to the Trial

20 Chamber for their exclusion.

21 Now, obviously all of us are working very busily at the moment on

22 a number of fronts, and so in terms of setting a timetable for the filing

23 of the motion, we would certainly ask for a little time. But there is --

24 there is, as I've indicated, quite a lot of material in that statement

25 that we say shouldn't properly be admitted.

Page 10378

1 JUDGE ORIE: So you say the requirements for videolink are not

2 met, whatever the decision of the Chamber in this respect would be, at

3 least there are substantial objections against the content of what is

4 presented until now. Is that --

5 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly so. I think Mr. Guy-Smith adverted

6 yesterday to a decision in the Milutinovic case.


8 MR. EMMERSON: And that certainly would form part of the

9 objection. There's also quite a lot of material when one reads the

10 statement which is simply bold opinion evidence. And so we -- we would

11 question, frankly, whether or not this material is likely to be of very

12 substantial value to the Chamber at the present stage of the proceedings.

13 But that's a matter which we can address in a motion if necessary.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's a completely accurate statement of the

16 state of affairs.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Troop.

18 MR. TROOP: Yes, I adopt Mr. Emmerson's submissions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We --

20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, we are ten lines behind.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, I did not follow the French translation.

22 I still admire those who are translating our words one by one.

23 Then is there any other matter on behalf of the parties to be

24 raised?

25 MR. RE: If we could possibly move into closed -- private session

Page 10379

1 for a moment in relation to the other witnesses.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we turn into private session.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10380











11 Pages 10380-10381 redacted. Private session.















Page 10382

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23 Mr. Re.

24 MR. RE: That -- this -- the matter I raised and -- substantively

25 is that of agreed facts.

Page 10383

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's one of the things I wonder about.

2 MR. RE: The Prosecution is very, very anxious to have agreed

3 facts finalised as soon as possible. We have sent proposals backwards and

4 forwards, including a proposed joint motion, and it is at the point where

5 unless we can get agreement we will ask for the Trial Chamber's

6 intervention to hold a Rule 65 ter conference to, so to speak, crack heads

7 together, because as far as we've -- we're concerned, we've taken it as

8 far as we can with the proposals and the agreement we've given the

9 Defence. We can't take the matters which are in writing, the subject of

10 the draft motion which we forwarded again last week, we can't take it

11 any -- any further.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

13 MR. EMMERSON: There's no -- no need to be cracking heads in

14 this --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the Chamber refrains from cracking heads, as a

16 matter of fact.


18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is also aware that one of the powers the

19 Chamber does not have is to force parties into an agreement where the

20 Chamber can encourage, can stimulate, but cannot force parties into an

21 agreement.

22 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. The position is that -- that absolute minor

23 matters aside, the only issue that remains in dispute as far as the

24 Haradinaj team is concerned on the forensic agreed facts, is the

25 outstanding DNA in respect of the most recent newly identified set of

Page 10384

1 remains as regards which we have an outstanding inquiry with our own

2 expert seeking confirmation of the validity of the material supplied by

3 the Prosecution. Until we have that, we're not in a position to agree

4 that particular fact.

5 JUDGE ORIE: But why not exclude that and put that as a separate

6 issue when --

7 MR. EMMERSON: It can certainly be done. It can certainly be

8 done.

9 MR. RE: That's what we've been trying to do for -- for weeks.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So where there's a 99 per cent agreement and a

11 1 per cent nonagreement, that the 1 per cent might be separated from the

12 99 per cent.

13 MR. EMMERSON: Absolutely and -- and I make it clear I'm speaking

14 on behalf of the Haradinaj Defence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because Mr. Guy-Smith is on his feet as well

16 and he'll explain his position, I take it.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Perhaps I am mistaken, but working towards a

18 resolution I had understood that it was the preference of the Prosecution

19 to have one document and one document alone so that we took care of this

20 all at the same time. However, if that's not the case, then I don't think

21 we have any difficulty whatsoever. And I don't take a position different

22 from that just articulated.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So no heads being cracked.

24 Mr. Troop, is -- you're also in favour of the separation of the 1

25 per cent from the 99 per cent?

Page 10385

1 MR. TROOP: I have very little to add, but I'm sure resolution can

2 be reached quite easily.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Re --

4 MR. RE: The motion is ready to be filed. We have it in draft

5 form with the annex. The names of all the lead counsel on it. It's ready

6 to sign. It's ready to be filed. If -- if that's where we are, we can --

7 I can see nodding from across the Defence bench. We can sign it and file

8 it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is looking forward to it. Let's leave it

10 at that.

11 Then the -- any other matter to be raised by the parties?

12 Then the Chamber would like to have all submissions by the Defence

13 on the admission of the annexes on the (redacted) ter statement

14 annexes by the housekeeping session of -- on the 8th of November so that

15 we have all -- so that would be at the latest at that moment.

16 We have already a motion from the Haradinaj Defence to exclude

17 portions of the statements and certain of the attachments.

18 So whatever else is there to be said about these matters, we'd

19 like to know that at the latest the 8th of November.

20 Let me just see whether I have any other matter.

21 Yes. There is a Rule 92 quater motion in which I think there was

22 one -- there was a 92 bis application was withdrawn and there was an

23 application for admission under 92 quater. I don't know whether I could

24 mention names at this moment, but the Chamber would very much like the

25 Defence to respond to it by the 6th of November.

Page 10386

1 Is that a problem?

2 MR. RE: It might be difficult, because we were obtaining --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, today is -- today is the 6th.

4 MR. RE: We're obtaining medical information, and the witness is,

5 we're told, is now in Kosovo. So we're trying to find the witness's

6 medical practitioner there to provide us with the information --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If you would then make that part of your

8 communications this afternoon as well.

9 MR. RE: I can.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And we hear -- of course, the 6th is already today.

11 So at earliest --

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: For -- for the Chamber's information, just to make

13 sure that we're clear about things, the Balaj Defence filed on the 27th of

14 October its objections to the (redacted) statement.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have -- I have that. Therefore, I said if

16 there's anything else to be said about it, then ...

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ORIE: There was an issue on the 2nd of November about lists

19 that were provisional and final versions still to be expected. In this

20 respect, I -- by the way, Mr. Registrar is preparing a redaction. I'll --

21 I'll further explain that to the parties out of court. There's an issue

22 still pending on this which ...

23 Then -- yes. As far as MFI D41 is concerned, that's a lengthy

24 video where the Chamber invited you -- there was no objection against

25 admission, but looking at this video, it takes hours and hours, and I

Page 10387

1 think it should be reduced to the -- to the swearing-in ceremony only.

2 When could we expect that, Mr. Emmerson?

3 MR. EMMERSON: By Thursday.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that.

5 Then there is another matter. As far as P367 is concerned, there

6 were some questions about whether it was admitted or not, but the parties

7 were then invited to make any submissions -- further submissions on P367.

8 The Chamber would very much like to determine the matter on the next

9 housekeeping session.

10 Mr. Emmerson.

11 MR. EMMERSON: So I can indicate what the issue was, I think I may

12 have touched on it once before. There's an expression of opinion in the

13 document which is outside of the witness's area of expertise, and it's in

14 respect of that that we take objection.

15 I can discuss it with Mr. Dutertre.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Dutertre, would that be a possibility for

17 you to discuss it with Mr. Emmerson and then to see whether it's a vital

18 portion, whether the Chamber would have to decide over your --

19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] We can discuss it now,

20 Mr. President. The only thing is that when I permitted 92 ter, no

21 objection had been made at the time, so I think the objection of

22 Mr. Emmerson comes a bit later -- a bit late, but I can ask him about it.

23 MR. EMMERSON: I don't know if Mr. Dutertre and the Trial Chamber

24 recalls, but the practice that we evolved of raising objections and having

25 them determined by agreement and by the Bench if there was no agreement

Page 10388

1 evolved after Mr. Seif [phoen] has testified and I raise the issue about

2 the inclusion of that passage in his statement at the time that he

3 testified.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would prefer if the parties would agree on

5 whether or not to leave that specific portion in. I have no clear memory

6 at this moment about the matter.

7 Then -- yes, then there's another matter still pending.

8 Mr. Re, D64, D65, and D115, I think the -- your position was that

9 the Prosecution had no objections to these exhibits being admitted but

10 that you'd like to make submissions as to the weight that will be given to

11 these.

12 Now, first of all, I would like to enquire with you,

13 Mr. Registrar. Do we know exactly at this moment how in your system D64,

14 D65, and D115 are qualified, as still marked for identification or already

15 admitted?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, D64, D65, and D115 are all marked

17 for identification.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then since there are no objections, as I

19 understand, they are admitted into evidence. At the same time, Mr. Re, if

20 you'd like to make any submissions as to the weight, then you are, to a

21 certain extent, free do so. That means that we do not enter into a

22 complete debate on the weight to be given to it, but if you'd like to make

23 some brief observations about it, the Chamber would not disallow you to do

24 so.

25 And not necessarily at this moment but --

Page 10389

1 MR. RE: No, no, no, I wasn't going to.


3 MR. RE: It's just been drawn to my attention that D115 is -- is

4 it an ECMM report? Was that a Rule 70 document?


6 MR. RE: Could that just be checked before it's admitted.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you make your submissions on the weight to be

8 given to it, then you will certainly refer to what the content of it is.

9 MR. RE: No, no, all I'm asking at the moment is, I just need to

10 check whether it's a document provided -- that should be exhibited under

11 seal, D115. That was all, if it could just remain under seal at the

12 moment until I make any inquiries.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then for the time being, could you inform the Chamber

14 about that at the earliest occasion.

15 Yes, as far as Witness 69 is concerned, there was an issue about

16 P1181. And I do understand that still further submissions by the Defence

17 are expected.

18 Then if there's nothing else to be raised at this moment, we will

19 adjourn until tomorrow, the 7th of November, 9.00 in the morning,

20 Courtroom II.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of

23 November, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.