Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 772

 1                           Monday, 29 August 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-04-84bis-T, the Prosecutor versus

10     Ramush Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj and Lahi Brahimaj.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

12             Could we have the appearances for today, please, starting with

13     the Prosecution.

14             MR. ROGERS:  Yes, good afternoon, Your Honours.  Paul Rogers,

15     appearing for the Prosecution, together with Mr. Aditya Menon,

16     Ms. Daniela Kravetz, Ms. Barbara Goy and our Case Manager, Line Pedersen.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Rogers.  And for the

18     Defence, for Mr. Haradinaj.

19             MR. EMMERSON:  Ben Emmerson, Your Honours, on behalf of

20     Ramush Haradinaj, together with Rod Dixon, Annie O'Reilly and

21     Andrew Strong.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Emmerson, And now for

23     Mr. Balaj.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Gregor Guy-Smith,

25     on behalf of Mr. Balaj, with Colleen Rohan, Chad Mair and once again, we


Page 773

 1     still have Mr. Gentian Zyberi with us.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.  And for

 3     Mr. Brahimaj.

 4             MR. HARVEY:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Richard Harvey for

 5     Mr. Brahimaj, together with Mr. Paul Troop and Mr. Luke Boenisch.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Mr. Menon.

 7             MR. MENON:  The Prosecution calls Bislim Zyrapi.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  May the witness be brought in.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon, Mr. Zyrapi.  Just to remind you

11     that you're still bound by the declaration that you made at the beginning

12     of your testimony to tell the truth and nothing but the truth.

13             Thank you so much.

14             Mr. Menon.

15                           WITNESS:  BISLIM ZYRAPI [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Menon: [Continued]

18        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  There's a couple of points that I first

19     need to clarify from the answers that you gave me on Friday.

20             First of all, I had put the question to you as to when you first

21     met Mr. Ramush Haradinaj, and at lines -- at transcript page 768 lines 9

22     to 10, you said:  "The first time I met with him was in April in Tirana,

23     when he came to the flat where I was staying with some colleagues, other

24     officers."

25             And I just want you to clarify, sir, which year that was in?

Page 774

 1        A.   April, 1998.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  And then again, I put -- I read to you

 3     from your transcript in the prior case.  And this is at transcript page

 4     3212, line 5 of P159.  And the reference -- the transcript read.  This is

 5     your answer in the prior case, sir:

 6             "For the first time I saw him," being Lahi Brahimaj, "in July in

 7     the General Staff."

 8             Again, sir, which year was that?

 9        A.   In July 1998.

10        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  Now, sir, moving on.  Can you tell us,

11     sir, whether you visit the village of Voksh in the year 1998?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   You did not visit that village.

14        A.   No, I didn't visit it.

15        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  Can you tell us, sir, how often you

16     recall meeting with Mr. Brahimaj in the period between July and September

17     1998?  And I don't want you to speculate; I only want you to answer that

18     question if you precisely recall how often you actually recall meeting

19     with him.

20        A.   I don't know exactly, but it was quite often between July and

21     September.

22        Q.   Can you elaborate on that?  Do you know how often?  When it was

23     more frequent; and when it was less frequent?

24        A.   More frequent in August.

25        Q.   Okay.  And was -- would that be towards the -- in the beginning

Page 775

 1     of the month, the middle of the month, or the end of the month; do you

 2     know, sir?  Of August, 1998.

 3        A.   Well, in the beginning, in the middle, and in the end, I would

 4     say.

 5        Q.   And do you recall where you met with him, sir?

 6        A.   At that time, we most frequently met in the location where the

 7     staff was based at the time.  And, of course, I also met him at the

 8     meetings of the staff.

 9        Q.   And do you know where that was, sir?  Where the staff was based

10     at the time?

11        A.   As I said, it moved.  In July, the staff was based near Rahovec

12     during the fighting there.  So I met him there.  For sometime, it was

13     based in the mountains of Berisha, then in the area of Drenice.  In all

14     these different locations, we met.

15        Q.   Very well, sir.  Moving on, sir, I want to read to you a question

16     and answer that you gave on Friday to Mr. Emmerson.

17             And the question -- and the transcript reference is -- transcript

18     page T-738, lines 4 through 8.  And the question was put to you sir:

19             "So whatever the position on paper, the practical reality on the

20     ground was that Mr. Haradinaj was the commander over in Gllogjan, but

21     others were in command in Jabllanice.  Do you agree?"

22             And your answer, sir, was:

23             "I do not know prior to that, but in July when I went to visit

24     Jabllanice it was under the command of the Operational Zone."

25             And I'd like you to clarify, sir, which operational zone you are

Page 776

 1     referring to?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before the witness answers.  Can you --

 3     Okay, it's been corrected.  Okay, thank you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, and I'm speaking about

 5     July, I was referring to Dukagjini.

 6             MR. MENON:

 7        Q.   And who was in command of the operational zone in Dukagjini, in

 8     July, 1998, sir?

 9        A.   In July, when I visited, the commander was Ramush Haradinaj.

10        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.

11             Now, sir, based upon what you observed during your visit to the

12     Dukagjin zone in July 1998, can you tell us whether KLA soldiers in the

13     Dukagjin zone respected Ramush Haradinaj's authority?

14        A.   Yes.  At the time, during my visit, together with him, yes.

15        Q.   And can you tell us how you came to see that?  How do you know

16     that that was the case?

17        A.   During the visit, together with Ramush Haradinaj, the commander,

18     of these villages, I could tell that his authority was respected, at

19     least by the units in those villages that we went to.

20        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.

21             MR. MENON:  Your Honour, if I could just have a minute to consult

22     with my colleague.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, sir.

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             MR. MENON:  Your Honour, the Prosecution has no further questions

Page 777

 1     for this witness.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Zyrapi, that brings us to the conclusion of

 5     your testimony.  Thank you so much for coming to the Tribunal to testify.

 6     You are now excused.  You may stand down and travel well back home.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             MR. DIXON:  Your Honours, while the witness is changing over,

10     could I just mention on the associated exhibits, there are some

11     associated exhibits for this witness and the previous witness,

12     Mr. Stijovic, which the Prosecution had not put on the list given to the

13     registry.  We have added those and there's no objection from the

14     Prosecution to those going on to the list as well.  But as Your Honour

15     mentioned earlier on, you did say I should mention this when we come to

16     our part of the cross-examination so I'm just mentioning for the record

17     there are some additional documents, associated exhibits for this witness

18     and the previous witness.  No objection from the Prosecution that they're

19     being added to the list and we will do that in due course so they are

20     there for Your Honours to consider as a full body of all the associated

21     exhibits with the witness.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Menon, do you concur.

23             MR. MENON:  Yes, Your Honour, that is correct.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Thank you, Mr. Dixon.

25             I saw you on your feet, Mr. Rogers.


Page 778

 1             MR. ROGERS:  Yes, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to you.

 3             MR. ROGERS:  Good afternoon to you.

 4             May the Chamber move into private session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

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Page 779











11  Pages 779-796 redacted. Private session.
















Page 797

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 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 9             Yes, Ms. Goy.

10             MS. GOY:  Your Honours will recall that last Friday on 19th of

11     August, an application was made to have the witness statement of

12     Witness 79 admitted under Rule 92 bis and it was admitted as Exhibit P1,

13     under seal.

14             And the redacted version of that statement is now available in

15     e-court, under 65 ter number 03042.1, and I seek the admission of this

16     redacted statement.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I would imagine the parties don't have any

18     objection to that.

19             Okay.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I have no objection just as long as I have seen

21     it.

22             MS. GOY:  It --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You haven't seen it.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm double-checking right now to make sure.  I

25     don't believe I have.  But if I have, then fine.


Page 798

 1             If counsel is referring to the initial statement that was

 2     disclosed as being the redacted statement, then that is the statement we

 3     have seen.  If counsel is referring to a statement that is different from

 4     the initial redacted statement sent to us in disclosure sometime ago,

 5     then I don't believe that we have seen the redacted statement.

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MS. GOY:  If I may just clarify.  The initial statement was an

 8     unredacted statement.  That was the 92 bis statement of Witness 79.  And

 9     this is simply the redacted version for the public record.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Redacted version of Exhibit P1.  Which is an

11     exhibit already in the trial.

12             MS. GOY:  Yes.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure, fine.  It should --

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  For the moment, I'm content.  In the event there

15     is a problem.  I will raise it.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's just a redaction of Exhibit P1, sir.

17     Obviously if the statements turned out not to be P1 then it cannot be --

18             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, I understand, but considering some of the

19     other technical issues that have arisen with regard to translations I

20     want to make sure that we're not in a position that I have agreed to an

21     admission of an exhibit and subsequently asked the Chamber for

22     reconsideration of that exhibit, which I know the Chamber will be loath

23     to do, once I've agreed to the admission of the exhibit.  So with that

24     caveat in mind, I have no objection.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The statement is admitted into evidence.  May it

Page 799

 1     please be given an exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 3042.1 shall be assigned

 3     Exhibit P284.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             MS. GOY:  The second application I would like to make is to

 6     request leave to add a document to the Prosecution's 65 ter list.  That

 7     is 65 ter 03087, page 3 in e-court.

 8             This document is a photograph of a victim.  The Defence had been

 9     notified of this addition by e-mail on the 12th of August.  And, in

10     addition, that document had also been added to the witness notification

11     of Witness 78 which was provided to the Defence the same day.

12             There is, in our submission, no prejudice to the Defence

13     particularly since the document is not new to the Defence.  It was

14     disclosed under a different ERN number in 2007.  The document is relevant

15     and has probative value as it is a photograph of a victim in this case,

16     and the Chamber and all parties will benefit from a photograph that

17     directly relates to matters arising from Witness 78's statement.

18             And the Defence for Balaj had already indicated in an e-mail to

19     the Prosecution that they do not objection to this addition to the

20     Prosecution's 65 ter list.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Goy.

22             Mr. Emmerson.

23             MR. EMMERSON:  I'm afraid I was not forewarned about this

24     particular matter of detail.  I'm sure there'll be no difficulty,

25     assuming everything is as it would appear to be.  May I just have, over

Page 800

 1     the short adjournment, to clarify the position and come back with a

 2     response on the record straight after we have the next break.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.

 4             Mr. Harvey.

 5             MR. HARVEY:  I just want to double-check as well.  I don't think

 6     there's going to be any problem at all, though.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

 8             Mr. Guy-Smith, do you --

 9             MR. GUY-SMITH: [Overlapping speakers] ... Yes, I confirm the

10     position that was previously taken, yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

12             The Chamber will give its order after the break when the other

13     Counsel have considered the point.

14             MS. GOY:  Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's not time for break just yet.  We break up at

16     half past.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  We do break then, Your Honour.  That's correct,

18     Your Honour, but there are ...

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay I have just been reminded that the next

22     witness is the witness that is a protected witness and preparations must

23     be made.

24             We were told it takes some 20 minutes to make those preparations.

25     Yeah.  We are 20 minutes from the break.  Are we now going to have ...


Page 801

 1     It's a long time.  30 plus 20.  So we're going to have a 50-minute break.

 2     By the time they finish setting up, it will be time for our break.

 3             Or shall we come then at 20 to?

 4             Let's come back at 20 to.

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I might, just before we do take the break.

 6     I'd like to, and I mentioned to Mr. Registrar before that I had one very

 7     brief matter to raise with the Chamber, which is just a matter of putting

 8     something on the record.  And if we could move into private session

 9     because I have to deal with matters in that fashion.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

11                           [Private session]

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Page 802











11  Pages 802-805 redacted. Private session.
















Page 806

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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

Page 807

 1     you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.  Good afternoon.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 3.22 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

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Page 808











11  Pages 808-818 redacted. Private session.
















Page 819

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Page 820

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10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are going to proceed according to the

11     provisions that govern a 92 bis witness who comes here to testify.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             MR. GUY-SMITH:  So he is subject to cross-examination.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of course.

16             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Period.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of course.

18             Ms. Goy.

19                           WITNESS:  78

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Examination by Ms. Goy:

22        Q.   Could I ask the usher that the witness is handed a copy of

23     65 ter 03081.  That is, the pseudonym sheet.  And if I ask the

24     Court Officer that this would not be displayed to the public, please.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  So it stays under seal.

Page 821

 1             MS. GOY:  That on the screens it does not get displayed to the

 2     public.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, it doesn't go on the screen.

 4             Yes, Madam Goy.

 5             MS. GOY:

 6        Q.   Witness, I would ask you to look at the document before you.  And

 7     to read it to yourself but not read it aloud.

 8        A.   Should I say anything?

 9        Q.   Are you able to confirm that the information on the document that

10     you have before you is correct.

11        A.   Yes, it's all right.

12             MS. GOY:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 03081, under seal.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

14     given an exhibit number, under seal.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I warn everybody who -- to please switch off

17     their microphone when you are not the speaker, because otherwise it

18     disturbs the distortion.

19             You may proceed, ma'am.

20             MS. GOY:  Thank you.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it's admitted as Exhibit P285,

22     under seal.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             MS. GOY:

25        Q.   Witness, did you provide a statement to the members of the Office

Page 822

 1     of the Prosecutor in September 2007.

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3        Q.   Have you recently had the opportunity to review that statement?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Having reviewed your statement, I understand that you wish to

 6     make a clarification to that statement.  And I will read out the

 7     clarification for your confirmation.

 8             Regarding the relationship between Uke Rexhepaj and

 9     Nesret Alijaj, you clarified that Nesret Alijaj was married to one of

10     Uke Rexhepaj's daughters.

11             Having made this clarification, and having reviewed your

12     statement, does the statement accurately reflect what you said at the

13     time when you were interviewed?

14        A.   [No interpretation]

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have heard no interpretation.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And, Madam Prosecutor, please switch off your mic

18     when you are calling for an answer.

19             MS. GOY:

20        Q.   And if you were examined today on the same issues, would you

21     provide the same answers?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MS. GOY:  Your Honour, before I speak to tender 03041, the

24     statement of the witness, I would request permission to add to the

25     statement a coloured photograph that's ERN 04639846, which is uploaded in

Page 823

 1     e-court under the same 65 ter number.  This is simply the coloured

 2     version of the photograph that is attached to the witness statement at

 3     page ten which is black and white and of very bad quality.  We had

 4     notified the Defence of this addition in the e-mail of 11 August and it

 5     is, in our submission, of benefit to all the parties to have a better

 6     quality picture on the record.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you confirm, Mr. Emmerson.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

10             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No objection.

11             MR. HARVEY:  No objection.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then 65 ter 03041, together with the coloured

13     photograph, I can't see where it's -- ERN 04639846 are admitted into

14     evidence and may they please be given exhibit numbers.

15             Under seal?

16             MS. GOY:  Yes, Your Honour, under seal.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P286, under seal.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

19             MS. GOY:  And I would also like to tender the redacted version of

20     that statement, which, by now, has been uploaded into e-court under

21     03041.1.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The redacted statement would then be admitted into

23     evidence and may it please be given an exhibit number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit P287.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 824

 1             MS. GOY:  And with Your Honours' leave, I will proceed now to

 2     read a summary of the witness's evidence.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, ma'am.

 4             MS. GOY:  Witness 78's evidence relates to the disappearances of

 5     Uke Rexhepaj and Nesret Alijaj, the victims of count 2.

 6             The witness heard that in May 1998 Uke Rexhepaj and Nesret Alijaj

 7     were stopped between the villages of Grabanica and Dolovo, by two armed

 8     men wearing military camouflage uniforms who spoke Albanian.  They were

 9     taken away by car.

10             Witness 78 does not know why Uke Rexhepaj and Nesret Alijaj were

11     kidnapped.

12             The witness heard that the kidnapping of Uke Rexhepaj and

13     Nesret Alijaj was reported to the SUP and the Red Cross in Klina.

14             In 2003, clothes of Uke Rexhepaj were identified in Zvecane,

15     where the ICRC did played items of missing persons from Kosovo for

16     identification.

17             That ends of summary, and with Your Honours' permission, I would

18     like to ask the witness one more question.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, ma'am.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Therein lies the rub of having admitted the

21     statement under 92 bis as opposed to any other fashion.  If you read the

22     rules of 92 ter it does not provide for that which has been done.  I'm

23     just raising it because that's what the rule says.  Nothing more.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... Can you please make

25     a specific reference to 92 bis and tell us what it is your standing on,

Page 825

 1     which paragraph of 92 bis.

 2             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm standing upon the paragraph that the Chamber

 3     relied upon in its decision which is 92 bis(C).

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, the Trial Chamber [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And you made a determination that the witness

 6     should appear for cross-examination and if it does so decide, the

 7     provisions of 92 ter shall apply.

 8             Looking now at 92 ter, there is no provision that allows for that

 9     which is about to occur.

10             If you read 92 ter, 92 ter says:

11             "(A) a Trial Chamber may admit in whole or in part the evidence

12     of a witness in the form of a written statement or transcript of evidence

13     given by a witness in proceedings before the Tribunal under the following

14     conditions."

15             "i, the witness is present in court."  That provision has been

16     fulfilled.

17             "ii, the witness is available for cross-examination and any

18     questioning by the Judges."  That provision has yet to occur.

19             "iii, the witness attests to the written statement or transcript

20     accurately reflects that witness's declaration in what the witness would

21     say if examined."

22             That provision has been met.  The provision of there being any

23     further questioning of this witness is not found in 92 ter.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  But by practice this has always been the

25     case in this Tribunal for 92 ter witnesses.

Page 826

 1             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Ah, but you see, but the distinction between

 2     practice and the law, specifically when you have changed a witness from

 3     92 bis to 92 ter, obtains a different potential result than when a

 4     witness is called by virtue of 92 ter.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what are the differences.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm suggesting the difference is as follows, that

 7     when a witness is called as a 92 bis witness and the Trial Chamber make a

 8     determination that the witness is subject to cross-examination, that when

 9     the witness appears, the witness is subject to cross-examination and no

10     further.  And whether or not the practice of 92 ter is distinct, that's

11     not what the law says.  At some point in time we have to deal with -- at

12     some level we have to deal with certain rules of law and there may well

13     be a practice that deals with 92 ter but it certainly doesn't deal with

14     92 bis.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And 92 bis clearly does say that under these

16     circumstances the provisions of 92 ter shall apply.

17             MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I just read to you the provisions of 92 ter

18     that apply to this particular situation.  I'm in your hands.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             You may proceed.

21             MS. GOY:  Could 65 ter 03087, page 3, be called up in e-court,

22     please.

23        Q.   Witness, do you see the picture in front of you?

24             Witness, do you see the picture in front of you.

25        A.   Yes, I have seen it.

Page 827

 1        Q.   Do you recognise this person?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   Can you tell the Court the name of the person.

 4        A.   Yes, I can.  His name is Nesret Alijaj.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. GOY:  Your Honour, I tender this document.

 7             MR. EMMERSON:  No objection.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence, may it

 9     please be given an exhibit number.  Is it under seal, ma'am, or not?

10             MS. GOY:  No.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, not under seal.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, before you admit the document, if I

13     might have but a moment to take my position so the Chamber is aware of

14     what my position is.

15             Based on this Chamber's ruling at this time, there is no

16     objection to admission of this document.  However, I will remind the

17     Chamber there has been an outstanding objection about the manner in which

18     92 ter will be used in these proceedings by the Balaj Defence which has

19     yet to be addressed by the Chamber.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Madam Goy, I do take it that this is not a

21     so-called associated exhibit?

22             MS. GOY:  That is correct, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 3087 shall be


Page 828

 1     assigned Exhibit P288.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MS. GOY:  This ends my direct examination, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, ma'am.

 5             Mr. Emmerson.

 6             MR. EMMERSON:  With Your Honours' permission we have agreed that

 7     with the witnesses forthcoming to reverse the order of cross-examination.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Emmerson.

 9             Mr. Harvey.

10             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 829











11  Page 829 redacted. Private session.















Page 830

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

 4     you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 6             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 7             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   And when he went to see the Prosecutor, did you stay with him

 9     during the questioning?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Can you remember that one way or the other, as sit here today,

12     sir?

13        A.   I wasn't there.  That's how it was.

14        Q.   Did you witness his statement?

15             Let me be clear in the question.  Did you sign your name at the

16     bottom of his statement?

17        A.   I don't remember having written that.

18        Q.   Witness, I'm just going to find that statement for you.  But

19     before I do that, when you went to -- went together with (redacted) in

20     2005, did you make a statement to the Prosecution?

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   In 2005 or in 2007, two years later?

23        A.   I gave a statement in 2007.

24        Q.   So when you went with your -- so when you went with (redacted)

25     in 2005, you did not give a statement then; is that correct?


Page 831

 1        A.   No, I didn't.

 2             MR. HARVEY:  Could we please have on the screen 3D18000001.  Not

 3     for public distribution.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Ms. Goy.

 5             MS. GOY:  I would just like to notify you that we had not been

 6     informed by the Defence that certain documents would be used in

 7     cross-examination.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harvey.

 9             MR. HARVEY:  That's quite right, Your Honour.  I had no except

10     ation that it would necessary to show this document to the witness until

11     the denial that I had just now in relation to the signature that appears

12     upon it.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We did say the other day when that happens at

14     least you make an application to the Court to use the statement.

15             MR. HARVEY:  I do apologise.  I hereby apply, and I should have

16     done this in the proper form for this witness to be allowed to view this

17     document on the screen.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ms. Goy, does that application need any response.

19             MS. GOY:  That is fine, Your Honour.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Am I right to assume, Mr. Emmerson, that the

21     Haradinaj Defence takes no --

22             MR. EMMERSON:  No objection.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  No objection.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may continue and show the witness the

Page 832

 1     document.

 2             MR. HARVEY:  I think I may have a problem because I think it may

 3     not have been released yet.  I'll come back to it, if I may, in a moment

 4     or two.  Again, as I say, I had not anticipated the need for this

 5     document which is why it hasn't been released.  It will be with us very

 6     shortly.

 7        Q.   Witness, I'm going to move to another question.

 8        Did you, when you went to see the Prosecutor together with (redacted)

 9     (redacted) in 2005, did you give them a photograph then?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11             MR. HARVEY:  And could we have that photograph on the screen,

12     which is 04639846, which was given an exhibit number a short while ago,

13     and I apologise, I'm still looking for it.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's P286, under seal.

15             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             P286, please.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is probably going to be -- 288.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm told it's 288.  I'm sorry.  You --

20             MR. HARVEY:  It's on the screen.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  We've never seen this.

22             MR. HARVEY:  The Chamber has not seen this before, no.

23        Q.   And that's why I want to ask you this, Witness, is this --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Wait a minute.  If we haven't seen it before and

25     then we have seen 286 and 287 and 288, so this can't be any of those.

Page 833

 1     Can you give us an ERN or a 65 ter number because I think this has yet to

 2     be admitted.

 3             MR. HARVEY:  This was the one appended at the Prosecution's

 4     request to the witness's 65 ter statement, yes.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My apologies.  My apologies.

 6             MR. HARVEY:  Not at all, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 8             You may proceed.

 9             MR. HARVEY:

10        Q.   Witness, is this the copy of the colour photograph which you gave

11     to the Prosecution in 2005?

12        A.   It is.

13        Q.   And did you receive that photograph originally in 2003 from a

14     lady from the Red Cross?

15        A.   Yes, I did.

16        Q.   And that -- she gave you that when you went to Zvecane, which is

17     just north of Mitrovica, isn't it, in the northeastern part of Kosovo?

18        A.   That's in Serbian territory.  Now I don't know whether ...

19        Q.   Zvecane is in Serbia?  Is that your testimony, sir?

20        A.   I don't know where it is, whether in Kosovo or Serbia.  I have no

21     idea.

22        Q.   Very well.  You recognised --

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 834

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 835











11  Pages 835-840 redacted. Private session.
















Page 841

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             Okay, the witness is gone now.


Page 842

 1             Thank you, Ms. Goy.

 2             Yes, Mr. Rogers.

 3             MR. ROGERS:  I'm conscious that we're coming up to a break.  And

 4     I'm conscious that the next witness is also a protected witness with the

 5     ups and downs of the screen, and I wondering whether now is a convenient

 6     moment to take the break before we get no further than swearing the

 7     witness in.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

 9                           --- Recess taken at 5.18 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think, Mr. Rogers, you were on your feet.

12             MR. ROGERS:  Yes, Your Honour, just going to proceed -- I'm

13     sorry.

14             MR. EMMERSON:  Just before Mr. Rogers does, I don't want to run

15     into the same situation that sometimes arises at the end of a session,

16     where there is insufficient time to deal with a matter that needs to be

17     raised today.

18             It's been brought to my attention that an official body of the

19     Government of Serbia known as the National Council for Cooperation with

20     the ICTY, an organ with which we are aware the OTP corresponds and

21     through whom it requests for disclosure about, in particular, Witness 81,

22     have been directed, has issued a public statement about these

23     proceedings, indicating that it has written to the President of the

24     Tribunal making representations about the adequacy of witness protection

25     measures in these proceedings and urging that steps be taken by the

Page 843

 1     Tribunal to bring about certain outcomes in the case.

 2             Now, clearly that type of external inference in proceedings is

 3     not something which in any event will influence Your Honours, and it is

 4     obviously extremely important that that message be sent out as clear as

 5     can be to the outside world, because this is not a private communication;

 6     this is a communication which this organisation has then publicly spoken

 7     about and issued public statements about.  And I have no idea, and I'm

 8     not asking at this stage whether the President has communicated their

 9     letter to the Trial Chamber, or what steps, if any, the Presidency have

10     taken to respond to it, but it must be said, in public and on the record,

11     that attempts by the Government of Serbia to influence this Tribunal in

12     the conduct of its judicial proceedings constitute an unacceptable

13     interference in the independence of the Tribunal, or attempted

14     interference in the independence of the Tribunal, is a completely

15     unacceptable step for such a body to be taking, and is particularly

16     worrying, given that it has been taken by a body through whom the

17     Prosecution are required to direct certain requests for information and

18     disclosure concerning protected witnesses.

19             It is, in other words, an entirely inappropriate and unacceptable

20     attempt to influence the proceedings and we wish at this stage to place

21     on record that that is the position.  I'm not inviting, at this stage,

22     Your Honours to say anything further about it but presumably, at some

23     stage, and probably at some stage fairly soon, the Presidency will be

24     made aware of the communication which is being directed at the President

25     personally, and one would expect, at some point or another, the

Page 844

 1     Presidency will either respond to it, or indicate that no response is

 2     coming.  And we would respectfully request that there be transparency in

 3     relation to this.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just say --

 5             Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, if I may, I would join in the remarks made

 7     by Mr. Emmerson and only add, the Prosecution are similarly required to

 8     direct certain requests for information and disclosure concerning

 9     protected witnesses through that same body.  It's not only the

10     Prosecution but also the Defence.

11             So any requests for disclosure must go through that same body.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             MR. EMMERSON:  The short point, I think, on both sides is this is

14     a pivotal institution in the communication of requests for fair

15     disclosure which is stating in public that it wishes to interfere with,

16     and influence, the conduct of these proceedings in connection with

17     matters concerning witness protection, and that the proceedings thus far,

18     it considers, are not being conducted in a manner in which it would like

19     them to be conducted in.

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 845

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

21             Just to make a very brief response to you in public session,

22     Mr. Emmerson.  I just want to assure that you this Chamber has not

23     received that kind of document.  We -- I'm personally hearing of it for

24     the first time now, and speaking on behalf of the Chamber, I would say

25     that the Chamber has not been provided with that kind of document.


Page 846

 1             MR. EMMERSON:  I'm grateful for that indication.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. EMMERSON:  And clearly were the Chamber -- I mean, it may

 4     well be that the Presidency takes the view that it is the sort of

 5     communication that should be responded to, as often is the case when

 6     external communications are sent to the court, with a fairly summary

 7     dismissive response.  Were it to come from a NGO or from a small

 8     organisation, it would be less worrisome, but it is coming from a Serbian

 9     government institution, upon whom the Prosecution is depending to put a

10     fair picture before this Tribunal.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have made the point and an assurance that the

12     Chamber has just given, if it is any comfort, that's the assurance.

13             Mr. Rogers.

14             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honours, could we call Witness 75, please.

15     We'll need to bring the screens down and go into closed session.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the screens come down, please.

17                           [Closed session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]


Page 847

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             May the witness please make the declaration.

 4             MR. ROGERS: [Microphone not activated]

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  I can't hear the witness.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  I swear.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Good afternoon to you, sir.

11     You may be seated.

12                           WITNESS:  75

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Rogers.

15                           Examination by Mr. Rogers:

16        Q.   Witness, can I ask you first that you can understand what I'm

17     asking in a language that is familiar to you?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can I pass you this document, please.  It's

20     65 ter 03079, not for public display.

21             Could you just look at it, please, read it to yourself - don't

22     read it out loud - and confirm, if you can, please, that the contents on

23     it are correct.

24        A.   Yes, they are correct.

25             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honour, could that please be exhibited under


Page 848

 1     seal.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document is admitted into evidence.  May it

 3     please be given an exhibit number under seal.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it is Exhibit P289, under seal.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honours, may we move into private session,

 7     please.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 849











11  Pages 849-851 redacted. Private session.
















Page 852

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.

22             Yes, Mr. Rogers.

23             MR. ROGERS:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Witness, I don't want to refer to any names, so I'm going to

25     refer to an individual as (redacted).


Page 853

 1             Now, in 1998, in the spring of 1998, was (redacted) arrested by

 2     the KLA on a road near Zabelj?

 3        A.   Yes.  Between Zabelj and Bucane.

 4        Q.   And can you tell us, please, how far away that is from

 5     Jabllanice?

 6        A.   It's not even 15 minutes on foot.  20 minutes on foot.

 7             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honours, the marked map, which I hope is not

 8     showing in public, could I tender that as an exhibit under seal, please.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The marked map is admitted into evidence under

10     seal.

11             May it please be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P290, under seal.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. ROGERS:

15        Q.   Witness, how do you know that (redacted) was arrested in the

16     spring of 1998?

17        A.   I was with him.

18        Q.   Could you explain, please, what happened when he was arrested?

19        A.   We were coming from Bucane, we were going home, and four soldiers

20     stopped us.  They came from the mountain.  Two came behind us, and two

21     were in front of us and they said, "Stop here."

22        Q.   How do you know that they were soldiers?

23        A.   They were wearing a uniform and a patch of KLA.

24        Q.   A uniform and a patch of KLA.  Could you describe the patch,

25     please.

Page 854

 1        A.   There was an eagle and it was written, UCK.

 2        Q.   UCK.  And where was it worn, the patch [Microphone not

 3     activated].

 4        A.   In their arm.

 5        Q.   Was anything said at the time that (redacted) was arrested?

 6        A.   Yes, they said, "Stop."

 7        Q.   Did they explain why you should stop?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   How do you know that (redacted) was arrested [Microphone not

10     activated]?

11        A.   I asked them, "Where are you talking (redacted) to?"

12             And they said, "We're taking him to Jabllanice."

13             And I asked why.  And they beat me up.

14        Q.   And how did they beat you up?

15        A.   With their rifle.  They beat me up with their rifles.

16     Rifle-butts.

17        Q.   And what happened to (redacted)?

18        A.   They took him with them, to Jabllanice.

19        Q.   How do you know he went to Jabllanice?

20        A.   They said they're taking him to Jabllanice.

21        Q.   Were you able to find out whether that was true?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... how did you find out that

24     was true?

25        A.   A month later, I went there.  I went to visit him, to see him, to

Page 855

 1     see where he was.  And I couldn't.  It was not possible.

 2        Q.   Why was it not possible?

 3        A.   They did not allow me.  I waited there at the door.  Nobody

 4     allowed me.  There was sort of gate there.  And there was a soldier who

 5     came to see, and he said, "Don't come here anymore."

 6        Q.   Did you speak to anybody about wishing to see (redacted) on

 7     this first occasion when you went to Jabllanice?

 8        A.   Only with that soldier who was wearing a beard, who came to the

 9     gate.  Nobody spoke to me.

10        Q.   Did you know who that soldier was?

11        A.   Yes.  Later, I found out.

12        Q.   Who was it?

13        A.   Naser Ibrahimaj.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Naser Ibrahimaj.

15             And do you know whether Naser Ibrahimaj has any other relatives

16     in the village of Jabllanice?

17        A.   Yes.  He is a cousin of Brahimajs.  Sorry, there are a lot of

18     Brahimajs.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Correction.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, if I may get some clarification.

21             What is Naser's surname?  Ibrahimaj.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ibrahimaj.  Yes.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And whose cousin do you say he is?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You were asked the question by the Prosecutor

Page 856

 1     whether if you know whether Naser Ibrahimaj has any other relatives in

 2     the village of Jabllanice.  And you said yes.  He is a cousin of

 3     Brahimajs.  There are a lot of Brahimajs.

 4             I'm asking you to confirm that that is what you said.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             MR. ROGERS:

 7        Q.   Witness, do you know a man called Lahi Brahimaj?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... do you know whether he is

10     related to Naser?

11        A.   They are cousins.

12        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... how do you know

13     Lahi Brahimaj?

14        A.   I know him since childhood.

15        Q.   In 1998, for how many years had you known Lahi Brahimaj?

16        A.   Since I was a kid, since I was a small child, I know

17     Lahi Brahimaj.

18        Q.   Can I take you back now to (redacted).  When you went to visit

19     him, whereabouts in Jabllanice did you go?

20        A.   This is an house in Jabllanice.  There was (redacted).  As soon

21     as you enter the village.

22        Q.   And from which direction would you be travelling as you enter the

23     village?

24        A.   I came from Gjakove.  And it goes to Jabllanice.

25        Q.   Do you know a village called Glodjane, or if I can put it

Page 857

 1     Catholic Glodjane, a Catholic village called Glodjane?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you come from that direction or a different direction?

 4        A.   No, from Grgoc, Zabelj, and then Jabllanice.

 5        Q.   So from Zabelj to Jabllanice.  As you're entering the village of

 6     Jabllanice, where is the building that you referred to, the place where

 7     (redacted) was?

 8        A.   It's the first house on the left.  When -- on the left side when

 9     you enter Jabllanice from Gjakove.

10        Q.   How many times did you visit that building in the spring and

11     early summer of 1998?

12        A.   I was there four times; five times maybe.

13        Q.   Later in 1998, did you ever visit that building again?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   When?  When in later 1998 did you visit that building again.

16        A.   When I became member of the army.

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... forgive me.  Which army are

18     you referring to.

19        A.   KLA.

20        Q.   Can you remember approximately the month in which you visited

21     that building in the later part of 1998 as a member of the KLA?

22        A.   It was November or December.

23        Q.   Were you able to, on that occasion, see the interior of that

24     building?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 858

 1        Q.   I'd like to show you some photographs, please.  The first one is

 2     Exhibit P60.

 3             Do you see that?  I see something else.

 4        A.   No, I cannot see anything.

 5        Q.   Okay.  It's appeared, as if by magic.

 6             Could you just expand that, please, and just take a moment, If

 7     you would, witness, to just take a look at that.

 8        A.   Yes, this is the house.

 9        Q.   And are you able to help with what the building or the buildings

10     that we can see in there, what they were used for, when you visited it in

11     1998?

12        A.   In 1998, I was close to the road.  There was -- there was a sort

13     of a kitchenette for the army where the soldiers would eat.  And the

14     other house was -- served for other things.

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... and do you know what other

16     things that house was used for?

17        A.   That house was where (redacted) was imprisoned.

18        Q.   How do you know that house is where (redacted) was imprisoned?

19        A.   (redacted) told me.

20        Q.   And when did he tell you that?

21        A.   When I went to visit him.

22        Q.   I'd like to show you another photograph, please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While we're waiting for the photograph, are you

24     able to tell us on which of the four or five visits did (redacted) tell

25     you that he was detained in that building?

Page 859

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The third visit, when I went there,

 2     together with somebody else, another person.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Rogers, you may proceed.

 5             MR. ROGERS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Could you look, please, Witness at 65 ter 3037, page 2.

 7             Do you have that picture?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And could you tell me, please, what it shows.

10        A.   It's the outside wall, and it's a picture of the road that comes

11     from Grgoc and the main gate, the main door.  And then you can see the

12     house behind.  And you can see the wall.  The wall does not allow you to

13     see the gate.  The gate where the army stopped.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... are you able to point out on

15     the photograph where the gate is, please.

16        A.   You want -- the gate that goes to the yard?

17        Q.   Yes, the gate that goes into the yard from the outside of the

18     road.

19             Perhaps you could just mark that, please.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Now, looking at that photograph -- sorry.  Looking at that

22     photograph, when you first went to visit (redacted), where were you

23     able to go?  How far could you go?  Were you able to get into the

24     building?  Or did you have to stop before?

25        A.   No.  We -- you had to stop beforehand.  There was a gate, so to

Page 860

 1     say, a barrier that would go up and down, 30 metres before you reached

 2     the gate.

 3        Q.   So could you just, with your pen, I wonder if you could just mark

 4     on this photograph, please, where the barrier or gate was that you

 5     referred to.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And did it go across the whole of the road or just

 8     part of the road?

 9        A.   It was about 7 or 8 metres long.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did it go across the whole of the road or part of the

11     road?

12        A.   From this side to the other side.  And they would lift it up

13     using their hand.

14        Q.   Now, when you say, "they would lift it up," who are you referring

15     to?

16        A.   The KLA.  The army.

17        Q.   The KLA.  And how do you know that the people that were lifting

18     the gate were members of the KLA?

19        A.   They were dressed in uniforms, armed with automatic rifles and

20     had the KLA emblem on their uniforms.

21        Q.   On this first occasion when you went to visit (redacted), were

22     you able to get past this barrier?

23        A.   No, it wasn't possible.

24        Q.   And on this first occasion when you went to visit (redacted),

25     how long did you have to wait there?

Page 861

 1        A.   I had to wait for an hour or two hours, approximately.  I can't

 2     remember exactly how long.

 3        Q.   And were you allowed to see (redacted)?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Can I show you another photograph, please.

 6             MR. ROGERS:  I'm reminded I should make this an exhibit.  Could

 7     this be an exhibit, please.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The marked photograph is --

 9             MR. ROGERS:  Yes, please, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The marked photograph is admitted into evidence.

11     May it please be given an exhibit number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P291.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             MR. ROGERS:  Could we please put up onto the screen 65 ter 3037,

15     page 3.

16        Q.   Can you tell us, please -- do you have that picture up now,

17     Witness?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you tell me what it shows, please.

20        A.   It shows the gate that leads into the yard and a sort of a garage

21     that they had.

22        Q.   We can see the wall running to the right of the gate.  Are you

23     able to help?  When you visited this in 1998, did that wall -- is that as

24     far as the wall went, or did it carry on further?

25        A.   It was just as it is now, in this photograph.

Page 862

 1             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honours, can this photograph be exhibited as

 2     well.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The photograph is exhibited.  May it please be

 4     given an exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P292, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             MR. ROGERS:

 8        Q.   Could I now show you, please, Witness, 65 ter 3037, page 4.

 9             Do you have that now, a picture of a building?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And in 1998, can you tell me, please, what this building was used

12     for, to your knowledge?

13        A.   This building was where (redacted) stayed imprisoned.

14             MR. GUY-SMITH: [Previous translation continues] ... get some

15     clarification as to time since he has indicated there were two different

16     times in which he was in the area.

17             MR. ROGERS:  Yes.

18        Q.   When did you acquire the knowledge that this was the building in

19     which (redacted) was imprisoned?

20        A.   I was told by (redacted) when I visited him.  He said, "This is

21     the house that is used as prison."  And when I joined the KLA, I had the

22     opportunity to look in the inside.

23        Q.   And --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harvey.

25             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honours, that still hasn't answered the

Page 863

 1     question when.  In temporal terms at least.

 2             MR. ROGERS:  I was just going to ask.

 3        Q.   When was it that you were able to view the building yourself?

 4        A.   In 1998, sometime in November or December.

 5        Q.   And from your own observations of that building, what, if

 6    anything, was it that made you think it was the same place that (redacted)

 7     (redacted) had described?

 8        A.   The only house, when you enter Jabllanice, the first house is

 9     this one.  There's no other house.

10        Q.   In particular, in relation to this building that we're looking at

11     in the photograph, what, if anything, about it made you think it was the

12     place where (redacted) had been detained?

13        A.   I wanted to know where (redacted) was kept in prison.

14        Q.   Could you have a -- you see, there's a man kneeling down in the

15     photograph on the right-hand side of the photograph.

16             Do you see that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   From your own experience of this building, can you help us,

19     please, with what that man is kneeling down at, or near?

20        A.   He's looking into a basement.  Through the window of the

21     basement.

22             MR. ROGERS:  Can I exhibit that photograph, Your Honours, please.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The photograph is admitted into evidence.  May it

24     please be given an exhibit number.

25             MR. ROGERS:  Can I put up now on the screen --

Page 864

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Just a moment.  65 ter 3037, page 4, shall be

 2     assigned Exhibit P293.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 4             Yes, Mr. Rogers.

 5             MR. ROGERS:

 6        Q.   Could I ask you to look now at 3037, page 5.  Are you able to

 7     help by looking at this photograph?  Tell us, please, what it shows from

 8     your own knowledge of the building.

 9        A.   Yes.  These are the windows of the basement.  The basement of

10     this house.

11        Q.   And are you able to see in this photograph whether there's

12     anything in the basement?

13        A.   Yes.  It's full of water.

14        Q.   And from your own experience, did you ever know it yourself to

15     have water in this basement?

16        A.   I didn't know that myself, but (redacted) told me.

17        Q.   When you visited the premises, were you ever able to see it with

18     water in the basement?

19             MR. HARVEY:  Asked and answered, Your Honour.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may -- you might as well proceed.

22             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honour, he said yes, that he had seen it

23     himself.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

25             MR. ROGERS:

Page 865

 1        Q.   In relation to the windows into the basement, do those -- as you

 2     see it in the photograph, was this how you remember it yourself or is

 3     this different from what you remember?

 4        A.   It used to be different.  It had bars.  It wasn't open as it is

 5     now.  There were bars so that those inside could not go out.

 6        Q.   When you were at the premises in November 1998, did you ever

 7     enter this basement yourself?

 8        A.   Yes.  I went to the basement, to the house, and everywhere, to

 9     have a look for myself.

10        Q.   Why did you go into the basement yourself?

11        A.   Because (redacted) told me that that's where he was kept while

12     imprisoned.

13        Q.   And when you went into the basement yourself, what condition was

14     it in?

15        A.   In very bad condition, full of water.  As soon as it rained, it

16     was filled up with water.

17             MR. ROGERS:  Could I ask, please, first of all, that this

18     photograph be exhibited.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The photograph is admitted into evidence.  May it

20     please be given an exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, page 5 of 65 ter 3037 shall be

22     assigned Exhibit P294.  Thank you.

23             MR. ROGERS:

24        Q.   Could I show you now, please, 65 ter 3052, page 1.

25             And, Witness, can you tell me, please, what this shows.

Page 866

 1        A.   We see water in the basement.

 2        Q.   The basement of what?

 3        A.   The basement of the house we saw earlier.

 4        Q.   We can see in the photograph that, certainly in the picture, it

 5     appears that most of this area is filled with water; at least to a

 6     certain level.

 7             From your visit to this basement, can you help, please, with

 8     whether this picture shows it as you saw it or whether it was different

 9     when you saw it; and, if so, how was it different?

10        A.   There was water up to a level as it is now.  Now you can see some

11     rubbish in the bottom.  At that time there weren't, but the level was the

12     same, more or less.

13        Q.   Thank you?

14             MR. ROGERS:  May this photograph also be exhibited.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The photograph is admitted into evidence.  May it

16     please be given an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, page 1 of 65 ter number 3052 shall

18     be assigned Exhibit P295.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. ROGERS:  Thank you.  Perhaps we can take that off the screen.

21        Q.   Now, Witness, I want to just clarify with you, please.  The first

22     time that you went to visit (redacted), the time that you weren't able

23     to see him, could you just assist us, please, with what time of year that

24     was in 1998?

25        A.   Are you referring to the first time I visited the house or the

Page 867

 1     first time I visited (redacted)?

 2        Q.   The first time that you -- if you just listen to my question.

 3             The first time that you went to see (redacted), you weren't

 4     able to see him.  You told us that.  They wouldn't let you past the

 5     barrier.  I want to know what time of year that was, please, when they

 6     wouldn't let you past the barrier on that occasion.

 7        A.   It was in 1998, about a month after he was arrested.

 8        Q.   And are you able to help with the season?

 9        A.   It was early spring.

10        Q.   Was that when he was arrested or when you went to visit?

11        A.   When he was arrested.  The trees became green at that time.

12        Q.   Now, you've told us you went to see him about a month after that

13     arrest.  When -- and you didn't get in to see him.  When was the next

14     time that you went to Jabllanice to try to see (redacted)?

15        A.   The first time I went about a month after his arrest.  And the

16     second time, it was a week, approximately, after the first attempt to

17     visit him.  I went with another person, with a friend, during the second

18     time.

19        Q.   And who -- without giving any names, what relationship did you

20     have to that other person that you went with?

21        A.   He was a family.

22        Q.   Did you go with any member of your family at any time to visit

23     (redacted)?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And who did you go with?  Without mentioning names?

Page 868

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then you can't ask the question.  The question is

 2     who did you go with.

 3             MR. ROGERS:  I thought I did ask that who did you go with without

 4     mentioning any names.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But how is he going to answer?  How is he going to

 6     tell you who you went with without mentioning any name.

 7             MR. ROGERS:  Because he can mention the relationship.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ask that question in that form.  How do you relate

 9     to the person who accompanied you?

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 869

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 870

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Yes, Mr. Rogers.

13             MR. EMMERSON:  This is purely a question of my understanding and

14     following of the evidence.  It may be that it's an issue that would help

15     Your Honours as well.

16             The witness has indicated his first visit was approximately a

17     month after (redacted) was detained.  The second visit was approximately

18     a week after that, with a relative.  And at the third visit, (redacted)

19     (redacted) which he has just been describing, I wonder if it would help

20     Your Honours - It would certainly help me - to understand how long after

21     the second visit the third visit (redacted) took place.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Rogers.

23             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honours, I can certainly try to clarify that.

24     I'm not sure I have the same understanding of the sequence of events.

25        Q.   Let's just try to clarify, if we can, Witness, the sequence of


Page 871

 1     visits.

 2             Now, the first visit you went on your own; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.  On my own the first time.  The second time with (redacted).

 4     And the third time I didn't even mention.

 5        Q.   That was -- thank you.  I'm glad --

 6             MR. EMMERSON:  My misunderstanding then.

 7             MR. ROGERS:  I'm glad Mr. Emmerson raised it.  Because the

 8     witness's count was my understanding of events, and I'm glad we've got

 9     that straight.  Your Honour, I'm just coming on to deal with the visit

10     with (redacted).  I'm conscious of the time and I may not be able to

11     conclude that part of the evidence in ten minutes and it was better to

12     deal with the incident as a whole.

13             I'm in your hands.  I can try.  And maybe we can sit on just five

14     minutes to try to conclude it, but I'm in Your Honours' hands.  I think

15     it's better to deal with the incident as a whole.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say you need five minutes, do you mean

17     you will need five minutes over and above the ten?

18             MR. ROGERS:  Possibly.  It depends on how the answers come.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Give it a try.

20             MR. ROGERS:

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, could you please --

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, I'm a bit confused about the testimony

23     that you just elicited because at page 59, line 3 through 5 you asked the

24     question, "Without giving any names, what relationship did you have to

25     that other person that you went with?"

Page 872

 1             And the answer, I'm talking about the gender that was used, is,

 2     "He was a family," is the answer that appears on the transcript.  So I'm

 3     not sure whether or not there was, in fact, a third visit or not, based

 4     upon the manner in which this testimony has come through or not.

 5             MR. ROGERS:  I'm not sure whether I'm hearing an objection.

 6             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm trying to get some understanding.

 7             MR. ROGERS: [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             MR. GUY-SMITH: [Overlapping speakers] ...  (redacted).

 9     It would be a she.

10             MR. ROGERS:  My learned friend is quite entitled to cross-examine

11     to his heart's consent in due course.  And if he'd allow me to deal with

12     my own examination in chief, he can ask any questions later.

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm more than happy to let him do that.  I just

14     figured, you know, why not have a clear record so that we all are not

15     befuddled about something that could be clarified in but a brief moment,

16     but Mr. Rogers may do what he wishes obviously.

17             MR. ROGERS:  I'm grateful.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Rogers, I, too, like Mr. Guy-Smith am now

19     confused.  And it would be helpful if it's clarified at this point.

20             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honours, if you're confused, we'll try to

21     clarify it.  I thought it had been clarified.

22        Q.   The two visits, we can try it again.  Mr. Witness, you said that

23     you visited for the first time and on that first occasion, you did not

24     see (redacted), and you were on your own; is that right?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 873

 1        Q.   Now whatever may have gone before, let's just start again.

 2             On the next occasion when you went, were you on your own or with

 3     anybody else?

 4        A.   I was with (redacted).

 5        Q.   Thank you.  After that occasion when you went with (redacted),

 6     did you visit (redacted) again?

 7        A.   Yes.  I went again with (redacted).

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I'll come to that visit and any others tomorrow.

 9     It's just if we may, please, stick with the second visit.

10             MR. ROGERS:  And Your Honours we've now lost five minutes.

11             Your Honours, can I ask you to rise.  I'm not going to get

12     through this in five minutes.  So I think it would, respectfully, be

13     better to rise now.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.

15             May the curtains please come down.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:

18             May the Chamber please move into closed session.

19                           [Closed session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 874

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             MR. ROGERS:  I just wanted to deal with the scheduling issue

20     relating to the next witness who attends under order.  He -- my plan

21     would be to try to complete this witness and then in the normal course of

22     events move to the next witness but I understand sometimes the Chambers

23     interpose certain witnesses.

24             I think that would be dangerous to do that and inappropriate in

25     this case.  I would rather complete his witness and then just move on to


Page 875

 1     the next one.  I am just alerting you to the fact that he attends under

 2     order.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Indeed, without understanding what you meant by

 4     the first sentence, of course.  You finish with this one and then move to

 5     the next one.

 6             Is that okay?  That's all.

 7             MR. ROGERS:  Yes, yes.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We take an adjournment and come back on Wednesday

 9     afternoon at quarter past 2.00.

10             MR. EMMERSON:  I'm simply going to say as we're rising, it is, of

11     course, inevitable that there are discussions at the bar about the

12     progress of the case in terms of witnesses and timing and what is likely

13     to happen in the future, and I wonder whether Your Honours would bear in

14     mind that perhaps on Friday as we are reaching the end of the current

15     session it might be an idea to set aside 15, 20 minutes just to take

16     stock of where we've got to and where we're going.  Because it does begin

17     to appear to all of us that the next scheduled two-week sitting period

18     may not, in fact, be used up because of the nature of the witnesses that

19     are likely to be available to the Prosecution during that period of time.

20     Nothing is certain at this stage but I think it might be wise if we were

21     all to take stock before the end of this week of where the likely

22     scheduling is to be in relation to the next two-week sitting period.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's see what we can do when we get to that

24     stage.

25             May the Court rise.

Page 876

 1                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 31st day of

 3                           August, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.