110927ED

Page 1228

1 you.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

3 MR. EMMERSON:

4 Q. Witness, you told us yesterday about one meeting that you were

5 aware of that had taken place between officers of FARK and officers of

6 the existing KLA in the Dukagjin region shortly after your forces entered

7 Kosovo. Do you recall giving us that evidence yesterday?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Based on the evidence of the senior FARK commander, I want to put

10 to you a more detailed account of the meetings that took place and see

11 whether you're in a position to comment on it, agree with it, or

12 contradict it from your own knowledge. All right?

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. I want to suggest to you that there were three meetings that took

15 place: The first on the 25th of June, 1998, in Jasiq, at which

16 Mr. Haradinaj was not present; the second that took place the following

17 day, on the 26th of June, in Jasiq and then in Junik, at which

18 Mr. Haradinaj was present; and the third which took place on the

19 30th of June in Junik, at which, again, Mr. Haradinaj was not present.

20 That is the agreed evidence in this case. Are you in a position

21 to contradict that?

22 A. For your information, the first meeting -- I have information

23 about the first meeting and the second one, but I'm not aware of a third

24 meeting. And this might be because those days I was in Isniq village.

25 Q. That's very helpful. You're aware, then, that Mr. Haradinaj did

Page 1229

1 not attend the first meeting on the 25th of June but that he did attend

2 the second meeting on the 26th of June; correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The record is not very clear here Mr. Emmerson.

5 Did we say Mr. Haradinaj was not present on the 26th?

6 MR. EMMERSON: No, he was present on the 26th. He was not

7 present on the 25th.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. 26th and 30th he was present.

9 MR. EMMERSON: No. Just the 26th.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just the 26th.

11 MR. EMMERSON:

12 Q. Now, you told us yesterday that you were not inside the room when

13 the discussions took place on the occasion when Mr. Haradinaj attended to

14 meet FARK officers. That's right, is it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You were in an ante-room with other ordinary

17 rank-and-file soldiers; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. While the commanders were in a separate room, out of your

20 earshot; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So during the entirety of that occasion did you speak to

23 Mr. Haradinaj yourself at any time?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did he speak to you at any -- at any time?

Page 1230

1 A. No, no.

2 Q. Did you hear him say anything at any time?

3 A. No. Because it was a separate room.

4 Q. So at no point on that day did you hear him say anything; is that

5 right?

6 A. That's right. Correct.

7 Q. And the next time you saw Mr. Haradinaj was on the occasion that

8 you've told us about in private session; is that correct? You haven't

9 seen him between the two times.

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. So can we take it that up until the time when you -- which you've

12 told us about in private session, up until that date, you'd never heard

13 him speak?

14 A. Personally, no.

15 Q. Thank you. I'll come back to that a little later on, if I may.

16 Returning to the meeting on the 26th of June. I asked you

17 yesterday if you understood what the disagreement between the forces was

18 all about. And you told us that you had received an account from the

19 FARK officers about what had been discussed; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. See, I suggested to you specifically, yesterday, that there was a

22 dispute between the two about the deployment of the FARK forces, with the

23 KLA side, headed by Mr. Haradinaj, arguing that the FARK soldiers and

24 officers should be distributed to reinforce and improve the existing

25 defences that been set up, whilst the FARK brigades, under Tahir Zemaj,

Page 1231

1 considered it essential that they remain as a single unit, under a single

2 command, in one location.

3 Remember me putting that to you yesterday?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, can I just check: Are we in open

6 session? We are. I'm seeing the Registrar nod, I think.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Great.

9 Q. When I asked you that yesterday, you said you didn't know that

10 that was the disagreement. You've had a chance, perhaps, overnight to

11 think about it. When you were told what had been discussed, did no one

12 tell you that that was the central point of disagreement between the two

13 forces?

14 A. That was what I heard from the leaders of the FARK, the officers

15 of the FARK, namely that the other side didn't want them to go into the

16 deep -- to go deeper into the territory.

17 Q. Pausing there so that the Judges understand the geography: The

18 location where FARK was at the time of these meetings, Jasik and

19 Juniq [sic], that was, of course, on the western side of the main

20 Pec-Decan-Djakova road, wasn't it?

21 A. Junik is not on that part of Peje-Decane road.

22 Q. That wasn't my question. I said Junik and Jasiq are to the west

23 of the main Pec-Decan-Djakova road, are they not? Closer to the border

24 with Albania?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1232

1 Q. And the issue was whether and how the FARK forces would cross

2 that road and enter into the territory on the eastern side; correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to speak closer to

5 the microphone, please.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, could you please get closer to the

7 microphone when you speak because the interpreters don't hear you

8 properly.

9 MR. EMMERSON:

10 Q. You see, you've been called, Mr. Witness, by the Prosecution to

11 give some evidence about conflicts between FARK and the KLA, but I'm

12 going to suggest to you that you have no idea what the real issues were

13 between the two leaderships.

14 A. I am speaking only about what I heard from my superiors. I said

15 that I was never present in any of the meetings.

16 Q. But you've given evidence that this was a decision by the

17 Kosovo Liberation Army to stop FARK from entering. But that's simply not

18 true, Witness 77. It's just not true.

19 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I don't believe -- that's not my

20 recollection of the witness evidence. And if my colleague is going to be

21 referring to the evidence the witness gave yesterday, if we could have

22 transcript page reference and the exact testimony be put back to the

23 witness -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

24 MR. EMMERSON: Well, the witness has just given the answer two

25 minutes ago.

Page 1233

1 MS. KRAVETZ: This is paraphrasing, I think, the witness evidence

2 not correctly.

3 MR. EMMERSON: But I'm not -- but let me see if I've got it

4 correct.

5 Q. You told us yesterday, Witness 77, and I suggest, again, this

6 morning, that the KLA commanders were trying to stop the FARK forces

7 entering deeper into Kosovo. Is that your understanding of what was

8 taking place?

9 A. It's not that I understood it that way, but things happened that

10 way.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's get something straight, Mr. Witness.

12 Did you just not say a few minutes ago that according to your

13 knowledge and information from the FARK officers the KLA officers stopped

14 the FARK troops from going deeper into the territory?

15 You used the word "territory."

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

18 MR. EMMERSON:

19 Q. You see, I'm going to suggest to you -- perhaps we'll see if it

20 can jog your memory. What you're telling us is based on what you were

21 told, is that right, by senior commanders immediately after these

22 meetings about what was being discussed? Is that right? Have I

23 understood that correctly?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, of course, amongst the senior FARK commanders was the senior

Page 1234

1 FARK commander that I've referred to in closed session, whose name we're

2 not using in open session, wasn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Let me see if I can jog your memory about what you were told,

5 then, by giving you his account and see if that assists your recollection

6 of what was said to you at the time.

7 MS. KRAVETZ: I'm going to object to that, Your Honour.

8 Mr. Emmerson can put a proposition to the witness and ask him to

9 agree or disagree with it, but I'm going to object to him --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is objectionable about that, in manner of --

11 of questioning?

12 MS. KRAVETZ: Because he can simply -- because he's going to, in

13 essence, be asking the witness to confirm or not confirm the evidence

14 given by another witness. And as I had indicated earlier, this witness

15 is only able to give evidence on matters that were -- are within his

16 personal knowledge.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not answering my question, Madam Kravetz.

18 My question is: What's objectionable about the manner of questions?

19 MS. KRAVETZ: It's the form of the question. If he -- my learned

20 colleague can put a proposition to the witness and ask him to agree or

21 disagree. But I --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Objection overruled.

23 MR. EMMERSON:

24 Q. Let me put to you the words of the senior FARK commander, whom

25 you've told us that was one of your sources of information, given on oath

Page 1235

1 in these -- in proceedings before this Tribunal.

2 The disagreement was that, Mr. Haradinaj asked that senior

3 officers be distributed in the operative units and in the villages and to

4 carry out their tasks within the structure of the Dukagjin

5 operational staff; however, FARK already had an established hierarchy and

6 was not in a position to do such a thing, to systemise 23 officers and

7 destroy the structure they entered with. This was the friction.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Reference: Transcript, T761494 and following.

9 Q. And then I'll just give you another quotation.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is this transcript --

11 MR. EMMERSON: From the first trial, Your Honour.

12 Q. And another quotation:

13 Ramush met with us when we crossed into Kosovo. The meeting was

14 on the 26th of June, 1998, in Jasiq. Ramush was there to inform FARK

15 that there was an active Dukagjini staff at the time and that FARK should

16 become a part of that structure. At the same time FARK had its own

17 command which was the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Kosova and

18 as professional soldiers it was difficult to change plans. This created

19 a friction.

20 MR. EMMERSON: That is transcript 756091 and following. End

21 quotation.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you take it quotation by quotation.

23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I certainly will do. But perhaps I can put

24 the specific proposition to the witness.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Emmerson.

Page 1236

1 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Before you do that - just to make sure that I

3 understand this - is this the testimony of the senior commander about

4 what happened in the meeting room or what was said in the meeting room?

5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Or is this his testimony about what he told the

7 men in the ante-room?

8 MR. EMMERSON: No, this is his testimony about what actually

9 happened in the meeting room.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

11 MR. EMMERSON:

12 Q. Now, the question I'm asking you, Witness 77, is whether you were

13 aware that the real source of the dispute was not that the KLA wanted to

14 keep FARK out of Kosovo but that they wanted to distribute the FARK

15 forces in a particular way within Kosovo?

16 A. Is this a question for me?

17 Q. Yes. I think -- having heard the evidence of the senior FARK

18 commander, I'm inviting you to re-examine your recollection and to tell

19 the Chamber whether it really is the case that you were told that this

20 was the KLA trying to prevent FARK forces from entering, or the KLA

21 trying to agree how they should be distributed when they entered.

22 You can understand the difference between the two.

23 A. I understand the difference. That was what I heard from the

24 senior commanders. But, as far as I know, they didn't agree to be placed

25 under the structure under the command of the KLA because they were

Page 1237

1 representing the forces of the Republic of Kosova. They didn't want to

2 be placed under the command of others, because these others were people

3 who were not familiar with the military art, and that's why they refused

4 to be distributed to other brigades of the KLA.

5 Q. So you did know, then, that that was the source of the

6 disagreement, the manner of distribution? You knew that; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Why did you tell us yesterday that you didn't know that?

9 A. I wasn't asked the question, as far as I remember.

10 Q. I asked you that question yesterday afternoon, Witness 77, quite

11 specifically. I put it to you that the distribution of FARK forces

12 within Kosovo was the source of the disagreement, and you said: Not as

13 far as you were aware.

14 A. I can't remember saying that. Maybe it's a human mistake.

15 Q. Are you trying to present a certain picture to the Tribunal here?

16 Are you trying to create a picture of conflict as between the two forces

17 which is different from the reality, Witness 77?

18 A. No, I'm not trying to do that. The reason why I gave the answer

19 that I gave was maybe because I didn't get the question. I didn't

20 understand the question clearly. And that's what I heard from the

21 officers, that they didn't want to be distributed. And that's why, after

22 that, they were asked to leave Kosova.

23 Q. I'm going to read you a passage of your testimony yesterday,

24 Witness 77. This is page 1219, line 24 and following.

25 I asked you this question:

Page 1238

1 "I'm suggesting to you that there was a dispute between the

2 commanders of FARK, including Tahir Zemaj, and the commanders of the KLA

3 inside Kosovo, including Mr. Haradinaj and Mr. Maloku, about the

4 deployment of FARK soldiers. And I can put it a bit more specifically.

5 "Those who were already organised on the ground inside Kosovo

6 wanted the FARK brigades to be distributed amongst the already organising

7 village defence units, whereas the FARK commanders under Zemaj considered

8 it essential that all of the 225 FARK officers remain together and in one

9 place?

10 "That was the dispute, wasn't it?"

11 To which you answered:

12 "I don't believe so. I don't know."

13 Why did you say "I don't believe so" yesterday, when you're now

14 telling us that you knew that that was the dispute, Witness?

15 A. There existed a disagreement. But yesterday when I said I don't

16 know, I didn't remember. Maybe my memory was refreshed today. I don't

17 think this is a bad thing. I remember that there were two options given

18 to them; either they go under the command of Haradinaj and Maloku, or

19 turn back to Albania.

20 Q. You see, I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. Witness, that you've

21 come here, as your evidence shows - I'm going to put it to you - that

22 you've come here with an agenda to seek to discredit Mr. Haradinaj.

23 What's your response to that suggestion?

24 A. I've not come here to discredit anyone. I am simply recounting

25 here what I know. I'm not here to seek revenge. I'm here to seek

Page 1239

1 justice.

2 Q. You understand that you've given a solemn declaration, don't you,

3 and you know what that means?

4 A. Of course. That's why I'm here. I won't speak any word that I

5 don't know or I haven't heard said.

6 Q. You see, when I ask you specifically was it your understanding

7 that a particular event occurred and you say no, when, in fact, the

8 answer is yes, do you understand that that is not consistent with your

9 oath?

10 A. I think it does -- it is consistent. Because I'm here to speak

11 the truth and only the truth, what I know.

12 Q. So you think that if you say the opposite of the truth that is

13 consistent with your oath; is that what you're telling us?

14 MS. KRAVETZ: The witness has answered the question.

15 MR. EMMERSON: Let's move on.

16 Q. You sought, I suggest, yesterday, to create the impression that

17 Ramush Haradinaj and the Kosovo Liberation Army forces were being

18 obstructive. That was your intention in the testimony you gave

19 yesterday. Is that right or wrong?

20 A. That's correct. That's my impression. And all the other

21 commanders.

22 Q. I'm going to, again, see if it jogs your memory about what you

23 were told by the FARK commanders concerning Mr. Haradinaj's attitude.

24 I'm going to read to you again from the testimony of the senior FARK

25 commander who was present inside that meeting.

Page 1240

1 MR. EMMERSON: And this is transcript 7613, line 19.

2 "Q. Now, you describe in your witness statement Mr. Haradinaj,

3 in that meeting of the 26th of June, you describe him as being controlled

4 an orderly. Is that an accurate description?

5 "A. Yes, a very accurate description. He was a very

6 constructive, moderate, this is the impression that I got."

7 Was that the impression that was conveyed to you, Witness 77,

8 that Mr. Haradinaj was controlled, orderly, constructive, and moderate in

9 that meeting? Because you've told us that he was obstructive, as you

10 understood it.

11 A. What I know is the words that I heard from my officers. I was

12 not in the meeting, and I don't know who said what in the meeting. These

13 words I only hear from you here.

14 Q. Yes. You see, you gave evidence without that information

15 available to you, but I'm going to suggest to you again you have

16 deliberately tried to create a misleading impression to the Trial Chamber

17 that Mr. Haradinaj's position was obstructive, when, in fact, it was

18 quite the reverse.

19 MS. KRAVETZ: My learned colleague is putting a question he has

20 already put to the witness which the witness has answered. It's just put

21 a different --

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Emmerson.

23 MR. EMMERSON: I'm putting it on the basis of yet further

24 evidence that the witness is misleading the Chamber, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not evidence. That's what you're

Page 1241

1 suggesting to him.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm making the suggestion based on now the

3 fact that not only has he misled the Chamber about his state of knowledge

4 concerning what the essence of the dispute was, but that he's now mislead

5 the Chamber, I suggest, about the nature of what was said to him

6 concerning Mr. Haradinaj's so-suggested -- what is suggested to be an

7 obstructive attitude towards the FARK forces.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, ma'am.

9 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, in my view that is really a matter for

10 submissions to be made at a later stage when my learned colleague

11 addresses matters regarding this witness evidence.

12 MR. EMMERSON: I'm perfectly, with respect, entitled to explore

13 the credibility of this witness, and that's what I'm doing.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.

15 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

16 Q. When you told us yesterday and now, in terms this morning, that

17 you understood Mr. Haradinaj to have been obstructive in those

18 discussions, is that information you say you got from the senior FARK

19 commanders?

20 A. Of course. I was not in the meeting personally, and I am

21 repeating this for several times now.

22 Q. But we've now, as you have heard, there has been direct evidence

23 from somebody who was the senior FARK commander in the meeting to

24 precisely the opposite effect.

25 The question I'm asking you, Witness 77, is whether you are

Page 1242

1 making up what you are saying in order to create a misleading impression

2 to the Tribunal, because the source of the information, the senior FARK

3 commander, has given this Tribunal, on oath, contradictory evidence to

4 that which you say came to you from the senior FARK commanders who were

5 present?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what ...

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your question asked and answered, Mr. Emmerson.

10 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. Just to -- I couldn't help overhearing

11 the sotto voce comment. Yes, that is the answer the witness gave. I'm

12 suggesting that he's lying. That's all I want to explore.

13 I'm suggest that the witness is deliberately giving this Chamber

14 a misleading impression of what he was told, given that we have it from

15 the horse's mouth as to what the truth was and given that the witness

16 himself has already acknowledged that he gave the Tribunal evidence

17 yesterday that he did not know that the nature of the dispute was about

18 constructive deployment, whereas he now tells us that he did. There are

19 in circumstances such as that -- perfectly proper to explore whether he

20 is deliberately misleading the Chamber.

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Emmerson, it may very well be that the witness

22 is misleading the Chamber. It may very well be that the witness heard

23 what he heard from whomever he heard it, which is different from the

24 senior FARK commander.

25 I think you have made your point that --

Page 1243

1 MR. EMMERSON: Well, may I ask --

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You've made your point that what he says he knows

3 is different from what the senior commander told this -- the Tribunal

4 in -- the Trial Chamber in the previous case.

5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, but also what he says he knows is different

6 from what he said he knew yesterday, on oath.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, and that you have established.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

9 Q. Did you speak to the senior FARK commander, the man whom we've

10 named in private session? Did you speak to him about these meetings?

11 A. What do you mean, "did you speak to him"?

12 Q. You have told us that after the meeting you received a report

13 from the senior FARK commanders, and I'm asking you whether amongst those

14 who you spoke to about the meeting was the senior FARK commander?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ms. Kravetz.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, my colleague Mr. Emmerson has referred

17 to three meetings when he's --

18 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

19 MS. KRAVETZ: I'm sorry. If the witness could wait.

20 He's referred to three meetings when he started this line of

21 question. If we could have a clarification as to which meeting exactly

22 he's referring to.

23 MR. EMMERSON: If Ms. Kravetz follows the evidence, there's only

24 one meeting at which Mr. Haradinaj was present. So there's only one

25 meeting that I'm referring to.

Page 1244

1 Q. Now, you've told us, Witness 77, that after that meeting you

2 received information from the FARK officers who had been in the meeting,

3 and I'm asking you whether you received information or discussed the

4 meeting with the senior FARK commander?

5 MS. KRAVETZ: I still consider it's necessary for my learned

6 colleague to clarify which of the meetings he's referring to.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's the meeting that was attended by

8 Mr. Haradinaj, Madam Kravetz. And the witness knows that, doesn't he?

9 MS. KRAVETZ: There is a difference, though, between the -- the

10 villages that have been mentioned, so I think it's still important to

11 refer --

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is -- what have villages got to do with the

13 meeting? The meeting is the meeting that was attended by Mr. Haradinaj.

14 There were three meetings, two of which he didn't attend. And they have

15 gone through that part of the evidence with the witness.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: Maybe -- if the witness could remove his head

17 phones, I can --

18 MR. EMMERSON: Let me make it clear. It will save time.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Then it's -- yes, please.

20 MR. EMMERSON:

21 Q. I'm asking you about the meeting attended by Mr. Haradinaj, and

22 you've told us you saw him walk into a room where a meeting took place.

23 And you've told us that after that meeting you received information from

24 the FARK commanders who were in the meeting about what was being said.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give him the date, please.

Page 1245

1 MR. EMMERSON:

2 Q. The date is the 25th -- I'm sorry, the 26th of June.

3 MR. EMMERSON: But he -- I think the witness is unaware of dates

4 but ...

5 Q. The meeting at which Mr. Haradinaj was present, where you've told

6 us you saw him walk into the room, you remained in an ante-chamber, and

7 afterwards, you've told us, you received information from the FARK

8 officers about what had been discussed?

9 And the question I'm asking you is this: Amongst the FARK

10 officers giving that information, was the named senior FARK commander -

11 and you know who I'm referring to - was he one of your sources of

12 information? Did you speak to him?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... just before you

14 comment the question, I see Madam Kravetz is on her feet.

15 Yes, Madam Kravetz.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: The problem with the way the question is being put

17 is that Mr. Emmerson has referred to the testimony of the senior FARK

18 commander, and it is not clear from the evidence he has given and the

19 evidence the witness has given that we're talking about the same meeting.

20 MR. EMMERSON: Absolutely --

21 MS. KRAVETZ: So that's why I'm asking if you could just

22 clarify --

23 MR. EMMERSON: It's absolutely clear. And if Ms. Kravetz is

24 remotely familiar with the evidence, she would know this. There was only

25 one meeting attended by Mr. Haradinaj, as the senior FARK commander

Page 1246

1 himself testified. And if Ms. Kravetz has read his testimony, she would

2 know that.

3 So he is referring to that meeting. This witness is referring to

4 that meeting. There is no conceivable possibility for misunderstanding.

5 Thank you.

6 So this is simply obstructionist objections. If Ms. Kravetz

7 knows the evidence, she wouldn't be making that point.

8 Q. Now, let me ask the question to you again, Witness 77. Was the

9 senior FARK commander one of those you spoke to about the meeting that

10 had taken place with Mr. Haradinaj; yes or no?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Who was the commander that you spoke to, please?

13 A. It was a more senior commander than the one you mentioned.

14 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... can I have his name, please.

15 A. I received the information from Colonel Tahir Zemaj.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Because you're aware that

17 Colonel Tahir Zemaj has written about this meeting in publications,

18 aren't you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I see. Have you never read anything that Colonel Tahir Zemaj

21 wrote about these meetings?

22 A. No.

23 Q. I see. Finally this, on this topic. The evidence of the senior

24 FARK commander - and I'm quoting transcript T7614, line 15 - is as

25 follows, and this relates to both of the first two meetings the 25th and

Page 1247

1 26th:

2 "At those first two meetings there were differences of opinion

3 but there were constructive discussions about how to move forward and

4 accommodate the new force. Both sides wanted to reach an agreement but

5 neither was ready to abandon its position."

6 Is that a fair summary of what you understood the position to be?

7 A. I think the matter stood like that, yes.

8 Q. And so why did you tell us that the position of the KLA was

9 obstructive then, just a few moments ago?

10 A. An agreement was not reached. And, as I said earlier, the FARK

11 forces were told to go back where they came from because they wouldn't be

12 allowed to go deeper into Kosovo.

13 Q. There was a third meeting in Junik on the 30th of June, and,

14 again, no agreement was reached; is that correct?

15 A. I'm not aware of that meeting.

16 Q. Because at that stage you were in Isniq; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You see, you told us yesterday that there was a gap of ten days

19 between the meeting attended by Mr. Haradinaj and the entry of the FARK

20 forces. But that's simply not right, is it? FARK forces entered on the

21 30th of June, four days after the meeting with Mr. Haradinaj, I suggest.

22 A. I can't remember.

23 Q. If you can't remember something, Witness, when somebody asks you

24 how long it was, you say, "I can't remember." What you don't say is, "It

25 was ten days," if you do not know. Do you understand that?

Page 1248

1 A. I understand.

2 Q. Why did you say ten days?

3 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we have a transcript page reference where the

4 witness said --

5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'll have that looked out.

6 MS. KRAVETZ: -- that there were ten days.

7 MR. EMMERSON: I'll have it looked out, the transcript reference.

8 Q. Why did you say ten days?

9 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we have the transcript reference before we

10 continue.

11 MR. EMMERSON: We'll take a pause.

12 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes.

13 MR. EMMERSON: Page 1163, line 1.

14 Again, I would ask Ms. Kravetz to keep her objections reasonable,

15 because this is simply time-taking.

16 The question is from Ms. Kravetz herself, 1163, line --

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. Emmerson, I'm not quite sure what

18 you are saying about Madam Kravetz. She only asked for a page reference.

19 MR. EMMERSON: I appreciate that. But the reality is I wouldn't

20 have put the question without having a sound basis for doing it. I

21 indicated that I was perfectly happy to look up the reference and provide

22 it, instead of which we lose -- we lose minutes in cross-examination.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: But for her also to be able to prepare her

24 re-examination you need to give a page reference at the time when you

25 quote it. You can't say you're going to have it looked up, Mr. Emmerson.

Page 1249

1 Sorry.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. Okay.

4 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. 1163.

5 "Q. And when you say that these officers, that is, Tahir Zemaj

6 and the other officers, were not welcome, whom are you referring to when

7 you say they were not welcome? By whom were they not welcome?

8 "A. As I said, in the meeting there were three people, Ramush,

9 Naim Maloku, and the third person.

10 "Q. Have you completed your answer, sir? I was asking: Who did

11 not welcome Tahir Zemaj and the other officers?

12 "A. Ramush, Naim Maloku, and the third person.

13 "Q. Thank you. I think now it's clear.

14 "As a result of this meeting between Ramush Haradinaj,

15 Tahir Zemaj, and the other officers you've referred to, did the FARK

16 forces leave the village of Jasiq?

17 "A. No.

18 "Q. For how long did they remain in that village?

19 "A. For about ten days, I would say.

20 "Q. And after those ten days, where did these [sic] forces go?

21 "A. They remained there until Sali Ceku, Ismet Ceku ... and

22 myself --"

23 "Q. Can I stop you there --"

24 And then we enter private session.

25 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, if I go back to the question my

Page 1250

1 learned colleague was putting to the witness - and this is today's

2 transcript page 24, line 20 - he put to the witness:

3 "You see, you told us yesterday there was a gap of ten days

4 between the meeting attended by Haradinaj and the entry of FARK forces."

5 That is very different from the evidence that Mr. Emmerson has

6 just -- from yesterday that Mr. Emmerson has just read out to the

7 witness.

8 So the reference to the ten days had to do from when --

9 MR. EMMERSON: Before my learned friend gives evidence, perhaps

10 we can ask the witness what he meant by it.

11 Q. When you said yesterday that the forces of FARK were in Jasiq for

12 ten days, you were asked the question how long they remained.

13 Let me just put the question to you in terms:

14 "As a result of this meeting between Ramush Haradinaj,

15 Tahir Zemaj, and the other officers you've referred to, as a result of

16 that meeting, did the FARK forces leave?

17 "No.

18 "For how long did they remain in that village?

19 "A. For about ten days.

20 What did you mean by "for about ten days"? From when till when?

21 A. As far as I can see here, I am not very clear of the question. I

22 think you're asking a different question now than what asked before.

23 If the question before was how many days they remained in Jasiq,

24 I said ten days, approximately. I don't think the question was put to me

25 the way you are putting it to me now.

Page 1251

1 Q. Well, let me put the question to you now then. How long after

2 the meeting with Mr. Haradinaj do you say that FARK forces entered

3 Kosovo -- sorry, moved from the area on the western side of the road to

4 the eastern side of the road in Isniq?

5 A. Approximately ten days, I think.

6 Q. Yes. Well, what I'm putting to you is that the FARK forces

7 entered four days later, on the 30th of June.

8 A. It could be.

9 Q. So we're back where we started. And I'm suggesting to you that

10 if you don't know the answer to something you should not give a time

11 estimate. If somebody says to you, "How long between the meeting and the

12 move to Jasiq," do you understand that if you don't know the answer, you

13 should say, "I don't know," rather than say it's ten days, when you're

14 not in a position to contradict the submission that it's four?

15 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I'm a bit confused with the question.

16 It has changed a couple of times. My learned colleague was asking about

17 the move from Jasiq to Isniq and now he's asking from the entry of the

18 FARK to the move to Jasiq.

19 MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, I'm --

20 MS. KRAVETZ: The time-period -- I mean, it's not very clear what

21 the ten days referred to, whether the entry of FARK forces into Kosovo

22 and then to Jasiq or whether the move from Jasiq to Isniq. It has been

23 stated in two ways by Mr. Emmerson.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have probably seen it stated in three ways. I'm

25 not quite sure that I'm following, myself.

Page 1252

1 MR. EMMERSON: Let me clarify, then.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: May I add, Mr. Emmerson, that the witness answer

3 was not ten days. The witness answer was "about ten days,"

4 approximately --

5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Approximately ten days.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I accept that. But four days -- it's a

8 matter of opinion, but four days may not be thought be approximately ten

9 days, in terms of accuracy and reliability.

10 Part of Your Honours' function is to determine the reliability of

11 the witness, whether information that he gives can be relied upon.

12 And if one looks at the transcript - and I did make it absolutely

13 clear, so there should be no misunderstanding - Ms. Kravetz sought to

14 suggest that the reference I made to the transcript yesterday was unfair

15 because, in fact, maybe the witness was saying ten days in total, rather

16 than ten days from the time of the meeting until the entry to Isniq.

17 So I asked the witness just a moment ago, at page 27, line 16:

18 "How long after the meeting with Mr. Haradinaj do you say ...

19 FARK forces entered Kosovo ... moved from the area on the western side of

20 the road to the eastern side ..."

21 "Approximately ten days ..."

22 Now, if that needs clarification, I'll ask the question again.

23 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, the problem with how the question was

24 put, on page 28, line 1, because there he talks about how long between

25 the meeting and the move to Jasiq, and then it says: "... do you

Page 1253

1 understand that if you don't understand [sic] the answer, you should say

2 so." That is --

3 MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ...

4 MS. KRAVETZ: -- that is the confusion that I'm pointing at.

5 MR. EMMERSON: I think that's a transcription error because I

6 think the question I asked was Isniq. But I'll put it again.

7 Q. When you say ten days, Witness 77, are you referring to the

8 ten-day estimate between the meeting and the time when the FARK forces

9 moved to Isniq?

10 A. Can you repeat the question, please.

11 Q. You've given us a ten-day period from the date of the meeting.

12 Is it a period of ten days that you say is the time between the date of

13 the meeting with Mr. Haradinaj and the date of the move to Isniq?

14 A. That's correct.

15 MR. EMMERSON: I hope it's clear now for Ms. Kravetz.

16 Can we move --

17 Q. Just one further question. When the movement took place,

18 whatever date it was - and I'm suggesting to you it was on the

19 30th of June - did the FARK forces entering or moving towards Isniq, did

20 that involve them crossing the main Peja-Decan-Djakova road?

21 A. Yes. Yes, you had to pass through that road.

22 Q. And did the FARK forces enter marching under a KLA banner?

23 A. Under the banner of the brigade, the 134rd Brigade of the KLA.

24 The emblems of the soldiers were red UCK/KLA, not FARK, as it's being

25 said now.

Page 1254

1 Q. Yes. So that we're clear, so the Tribunal understand: They

2 entered wearing Kosovo Liberation Army/UCK insignia, didn't they?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did the soldiers regard themselves as being part of the same

5 force as the UCK inside Kosovo or a different force?

6 A. I can speak only on behalf of myself, not of the others. I

7 considered myself as a soldier of the Liberation Army of Kosovo.

8 Q. The KLA?

9 A. I didn't make any distinction, myself.

10 Q. Were you wearing KLA insignia?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. And did you, in fact, march through the village of

13 Gllogjan, or, rather, did the forces March through the village of

14 Gllogjan on their way to Isniq?

15 A. To my recollection, they marched. Because I myself was in Isniq.

16 The forces marched up to the village of Rexhe, as far as I know. Then

17 there were some trucks that went to fetch them. Some lorries took them

18 and transported them to Isniq.

19 Q. The question was: Did the FARK forces pass through the village of

20 Gllogjan en route to Isniq?

21 A. Yes, certainly they did. Because that was the only open route.

22 Q. And they were permitted to pass?

23 A. Yes, they were. They arrived in Isniq in the morning.

24 Q. Well, I'm going to now move beyond the incident that was dealt

25 with in private session, because I'll deal with that towards the end.

Page 1255

1 I want to move forwards now, please, to the time when the FARK

2 forces moved from Isniq to Prapaqan.

3 First of all, how long after their arrival, in your estimation,

4 did the FARK forces remain in Isniq before they moved to Prapaqan?

5 A. I can't be precise. I don't recall very well. I can't be

6 precise.

7 Q. Can you tell us whether it was days or weeks? Or months?

8 A. I might say for some weeks.

9 Q. The barracks in Prapaqan had been newly equipped by the

10 Kosovo Liberation Army in the Dukagjini plain, hadn't they?

11 A. As far as I know, there was not a single equipment in that

12 school.

13 Q. Were there beds?

14 A. The village helped -- a nearby village helped, Dubovik village

15 helped, to prepare some beds within a very short time, but the school had

16 nothing in terms of equipment.

17 Q. You mentioned Rrustem Tetaj yesterday, and you said that he was

18 the commander in Lluke. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Tetaj testified before this Tribunal that the funding for the

21 Prapaqan barracks had been provided to him by Mr. Haradinaj and then made

22 available to the FARK brigades. Did you know that?

23 MS. KRAVETZ: Could we have a reference for that, Your Honour.

24 MR. EMMERSON: Last trial: 3755, line 14; 3750, line 3.

25 Q. Did you know that these barracks had been earmarked by

Page 1256

1 Mr. Haradinaj and funding provided in order to house the FARK brigade?

2 A. No, I didn't know that. I don't even believe that.

3 Q. I see. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Mr. Tetaj testified

4 that he organised for the FARK soldiers to stay in Prapaqan. Is that

5 right or not, as far as you knew?

6 A. It's better if I say I don't know.

7 Q. Well, if you don't know, it certainly is better that you say you

8 don't know.

9 But were you there when the move to Prapaqan took place, when the

10 forces of the FARK arrived at Prapaqan? Were you there?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Were you aware that Skender Rexhahmetaj, who testified in this

13 trial, and Rrustem Tetaj, who testified in the last trial, were there to

14 meet the FARK forces and welcome them to the Prapaqan barracks?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Were you aware that the Prapaqan barracks had been provided as a

17 result of an agreement between Tahir Zemaj and Ramush Haradinaj?

18 A. I don't know of any agreement.

19 Q. The facility, I suggest, was made available to you in Prapaqan so

20 that you could move from Isniq - you being the FARK forces - was made

21 available to you by Mr. Haradinaj and his subzone commanders Mr. Tetaj

22 and Mr. Rexhahmetaj; you were given it by the KLA, I suggest. Is that

23 right?

24 A. I said I don't know.

25 Q. Not only that, but there were already KLA soldiers stationed in

Page 1257

1 the Prapaqan barracks when you arrived who were then integrated within

2 your FARK brigade. That's right, isn't it? You must know that.

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Where were you? I thought you were in Prapaqan.

5 A. I was recovering, sir, at that time.

6 Q. Where were you recovering?

7 A. In Isniq.

8 Q. Did you go to Prapaqan at all?

9 A. Yes, I did. Certainly.

10 Q. Because you've told us about an incident that took place at

11 Prapaqan, haven't you, a confrontation?

12 A. I was there.

13 Q. You were there, then. That happened within a couple of days of

14 the arrival of the FARK forces, didn't it, that incident?

15 A. I don't remember accurately when it occurred, but I know how it

16 occurred.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continued] ... would that be

18 a convenient moment, Mr. Emmerson?

19 MR. EMMERSON: Indeed, Your honour.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: To do so, may the Chamber please move into closed

21 session.

22 [Closed session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1259

1 Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

2 MR. EMMERSON:

3 Q. Witness 77, I want to go back now to the dates, please, and the

4 chronology of the move to Prapaqan just so the Trial Chamber has the

5 accurate picture.

6 I'm going to suggest to you - and there is agreed evidence to

7 this effect - that the date upon which the FARK forces moved from the

8 west side of the road to Isniq was the 30th of June, after the last

9 meeting in Junik.

10 A. It may be. I don't recall very well.

11 Q. And, again, I'm going to suggest to you that the date of the move

12 to the barracks at Prapaqan which had been provided to the FARK soldiers

13 by the KLA under the command of Ramush Haradinaj was the 9th of July.

14 A. It may be. I don't recall.

15 Q. Because you told us earlier on, when pressed, you thought that

16 the FARK forces had been stationed at Isniq for weeks. In fact, the

17 agreed evidence is that they were stationed at Isniq for one week and two

18 days. That's evidence admitted by agreement from the previous trial.

19 So if you could just clarify: You're not in a position to

20 contradict that, are you?

21 A. I am not. I don't recall very well. I thought that they stayed

22 there one or two weeks.

23 Q. Well, just so that we're clear: The incident which we're going

24 to ask some questions about in private session, that occurred between

25 those two dates, between the entry into -- into Isniq on the 30th of June

Page 1260

1 and the move to Prapaqan on the 9th of July, it was during that period

2 that that incident occurred. Do you see that?

3 A. Yes, I know that.

4 Q. Now, you've also referred to a confrontation that took place at

5 the Prapaqan barracks in which Mr. Haradinaj attended and expelled the

6 officers, leaving the soldiers behind. Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Again, the unchallenged evidence is that that incident occurred

9 on the 10th of July, the day after the move to the Prapaqan barracks.

10 A. I cannot challenge that because I don't remember very well the

11 date. But I know that I was there. The date, I can't remember.

12 Q. So if you were there on the 10th of July, you were certainly in

13 Prapaqan the day after the move of the FARK forces to the Prapaqan

14 barracks. Does that help you work out whether you were there on the day

15 of the move? You've told us a little earlier on you were not there

16 because you were still recovering in Isniq.

17 A. I was recovering, that's true. But I don't think it was one day

18 after, as you said, as you put to me. I can't confirm it.

19 Q. There's a very, very considerable body of other evidence in this

20 case which confirms that it was the 9th of July that the move took place,

21 and there's a very considerable body of other evidence all agreed that

22 the incident, the confrontation, took place on the 10th of July. Indeed,

23 there are minutes of a meeting that day.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Kravetz.

25 MS. KRAVETZ: The witness has already indicated that he can't

Page 1261

1 confirm the date when this occurred. He has answered the question.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, what I'm trying to do, Your Honours, to

3 isolate when he arrived at Prapaqan. There's only one day possible, and

4 I just want to understand whether he arrived on the day of the move or on

5 the day of the incident.

6 MS. KRAVETZ: I believe he has already answered that as well, and

7 he has already indicated that he does not remember the exact date.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Well, let me put the question another way.

9 Q. You say you were there on the 10th of July when the confrontation

10 took place, at which --

11 MS. KRAVETZ: That is not a correct statement of the witness

12 evidence. The witness does not remember when the confrontation took

13 place. He has already indicated he does not remember the date.

14 MR. EMMERSON: Well, let's put it this way: There is absolutely

15 no dispute between the parties that the confrontation took place on the

16 10th of July. And without going into all of the evidence which in due

17 course will be available to the Trial Chamber, there are minutes,

18 recorded minutes, of the meeting that followed from that incident that

19 day. So there's no doubt at all that the incident took place on the

20 10th of July.

21 Q. And my question is - you say you were there at Prapaqan when that

22 incident took place - my question is: Did you arrive there that day or

23 had you arrived there before then?

24 A. I told you, I don't remember.

25 Q. You --

Page 1262

1 A. But I know that I was in the Prapaqan barracks for some days by

2 then.

3 Q. So you're saying you had been in Prapaqan for some days, you,

4 yourself, had been physically present in Prapaqan in the barracks for

5 some days before the confrontation which the officers were expelled; is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that on all of the evidence that

9 cannot be the truth, Witness 77, because we have independent and

10 confirmed and agreed evidence that the FARK did not move to the barracks

11 until the day before that incident.

12 So I'm going to ask you to examine your recollection again. Are

13 you sure you were there for some days before that incident took place?

14 A. To my recollection, I was in Prapaqan barracks before that

15 incident occurred, and I'm repeating it. This is how I remember it.

16 Q. It's important that you understand, as I said to you earlier on,

17 the need to give accurate evidence according to your oath. And I'm going

18 to suggest to you that the evidence will prove incontrovertibly that what

19 you've just said cannot be true. And so I'm going to invite you again to

20 examine whether you are sure that you had been there for some days before

21 the incident took place.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Kravetz.

23 MS. KRAVETZ: Objection, Your Honours. My learned colleague has

24 put this question to the witness repeatedly in different forms. The

25 witness has already said - and the latest answer is on page 38, line 12 -

Page 1263

1 that to his recollection he was there before the incident occurred.

2 Now, it's a matter for submissions --

3 MR. EMMERSON: No, just --

4 MS. KRAVETZ: -- at a later stage --

5 MR. EMMERSON: No, it's --

6 MS. KRAVETZ: -- whether the witness recollection is right or

7 not. This is his recollection, and he has responded to the question.

8 MR. EMMERSON: With respect, it's not solely a matter of

9 recollection. If this witness is not telling the truth, that's something

10 I'm entitled to explore. And as Your Honour also find in due course, the

11 chronology that I've outlined is incontrovertible and agreed. It follows

12 that the witness cannot be right when he says that he had been there for

13 several days.

14 Now, what I want to do is to give him an opportunity to say

15 whether he may be mistaken or whether he insists on the position that he

16 is taking. And it's no good Ms. Kravetz saying he was there before the

17 incident. His testimony is he was there some days before the incident.

18 A multiple of days.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem, Madam Kravetz, is that I think in the

20 last --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I say some days, it may be two

22 or three days.

23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Well, the witness is taking what I was

24 going to say out of my mouth. That's fine.

25 MR. EMMERSON:

Page 1264

1 Q. So you were certainly there the day before the incident; you're

2 sure of that, are you?

3 A. Yes, I'm sure.

4 Q. So if it is the position that everybody in this trial is agreed

5 on the evidence that the incident took place on the 10th of July, it

6 follows you were definitely there on 9th of July; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You said two or three. You didn't say one or two. So does it

9 follow you were there on the 8th of July as well?

10 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, the witness has already indicated that

11 he's not clear as to the dates when he was there. He has provided an

12 answer --

13 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry --

14 MS. KRAVETZ: -- to this question.

15 MR. EMMERSON: -- that's simply wrong. He's just said he's sure

16 that he was there on the 9th. And I'm asking him, is he also sure he was

17 there on the 8th.

18 MS. KRAVETZ: That was an answer following a question, which

19 said: If it's the position that everybody in this trial is agreed that

20 the incident took place on the 10th of July, it follows that you were

21 definitely there on the 9th of July.

22 So ...

23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. It is the position that everyone in this

24 trial is agreed that the incident took place on the 10th of July, and

25 Ms. Kravetz ought to know that. Therefore I'm asking whether the witness

Page 1265

1 is reserving to himself some area of uncertainty about the 8th or whether

2 he is committing himself to saying he is sure he was there. Plainly,

3 that has different ramifications for his credibility.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Overruled, Madam Kravetz.

5 MR. EMMERSON:

6 Q. So, you've told us you were definitely there on the 9th. Were

7 you definitely there on the 8th?

8 A. It is possible that I was there on the 8th. I can't remember,

9 though. I told you that I'm not very good with dates. But I know that I

10 was there.

11 Q. If, as you've told us, you're sure you were there on the 9th,

12 then you were there on the very day FARK forces moved into Prapaqan

13 barracks, I suggest. So perhaps you would assist us with your

14 recollection of that significant event.

15 A. I can't remember whether I was there the day when the FARK forces

16 entered the barracks. I -- I can't recollect.

17 Q. We'll check the transcript. Because I thought before the break

18 you said you were not there.

19 MR. EMMERSON: Perhaps somebody could check that, please.

20 Q. Before the break I asked you that question, and you said you were

21 not there, not that you couldn't remember one way or the other. What is

22 the position: Were you there, were you not there, or don't you know?

23 A. I said that I was there the day of the incident but I can't

24 remember the date. My dates are not coinciding with yours. I told you

25 that I was in Prapaqan. I'm sure that I was there. I've not come here

Page 1266

1 to make up stories or to lie, as you said earlier. I'm describing you

2 the reality the way I saw it.

3 Q. Witness 77, please don't try and shelter behind your uncertainty

4 about dates. I'm asking you about events, not dates. And I'm asking you

5 very clearly whether you were there on that very significant day when the

6 FARK forces moved in to the barracks at Prapaqan. Before the break, you

7 told us, categorically, that you were not. When I've put the dates to

8 you, you are now saying that you don't know whether you were or you

9 weren't. What is the truth?

10 A. I did not say I was not there. I said I was there.

11 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, transcript page 32, line 14.

12 Question, line 12:

13 "But were you there when the move to Prapaqan took place, when

14 the forces of the FARK arrived at Prapaqan? Were you there?

15 "A. No."

16 Q. Why did you say "no" before the break, Witness 77, if you're now

17 telling us you don't know one way or the other whether you were there?

18 Why did you deny it?

19 A. I'm not denying it. I said that it is possible that I've

20 forgotten. I know that I was there, but I don't know what days. And it

21 is possible that I went there in the afternoon.

22 Q. You didn't tell us that you weren't sure before the break,

23 Witness 77. You didn't know one way or the other, you couldn't remember.

24 You were categorical in saying you were not there when the FARK forces

25 arrived at Prapaqan. What is your evidence: Were you there, were you not

Page 1267

1 there, or don't you know?

2 MS. KRAVETZ: The witness has just answered that question,

3 Your Honour.

4 MR. EMMERSON: Well, let me put it another way, then.

5 Q. You just said a moment ago in answer to that question that what

6 you had said was that you didn't know. In fact, as you will see from the

7 transcript, what you said was that you did know and that you were not

8 there. Why did you say that?

9 A. I was not there when the forces arrived. Maybe I arrived in the

10 afternoon. I can't remember exactly. But what I'm sure is that I was

11 there on the date of the incident. I'm not sure about the other days,

12 but I was there -- the dates -- the other dates, but I was there on the

13 date of the incident. I'm sure about that.

14 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... asking you about the date of

15 the incident. I'm asking you about the arrival of the forces in

16 Prapaqan.

17 So now you're telling us you were not there when the forces

18 arrived. Earlier on, just after the break, you said you didn't know

19 whether you were there or not. What's the truth? It's important, this.

20 MS. KRAVETZ: The witness has answered that question.

21 MR. EMMERSON: Well, he's answered it in many different ways.

22 I'd like to have a clear answer from him, a final answer.

23 MS. KRAVETZ: He has just given that answer. It's at line 15 --

24 it starts at line 15 of page forty -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

25 MR. EMMERSON: It's in conflict to the answer that he gave

Page 1268

1 earlier on, and I wish to know which is correct.

2 MS. KRAVETZ: He has provided an explanation. He's been put the

3 questions several times and he has just provided an explanation of why he

4 said what he said before and is responding to the question as he is doing

5 so now.

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Kravetz, I'm sorry, I'm going to rule you

7 out of order because -- and, I'm afraid, the witness has been jumping

8 from one position to another. And I'm not quite sure what is his actual

9 position right now.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Emmerson, I think it is important -- if all

11 this is of great importance, it is important to make the difference

12 between the question "were you there" and the day --

13 MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... I've understood that.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- of the --

15 MR. EMMERSON: I've understood that.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- when they arrive or were you there when they

17 arrive.

18 MR. EMMERSON: I've been very careful to make that distinction --

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.

20 MR. EMMERSON: -- in the course of the questions I've asked.

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: If that --

22 MR. EMMERSON: On reflection on the transcript, Your Honour will

23 see I've been very, very careful to make that distinction.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: If that's clear to the witness as well, please

25 proceed.

Page 1269

1 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

2 Q. So the question I'm asking, once and for all, final answer

3 please: When the FARK forces arrived in the barracks for the first time,

4 were you there or were you not?

5 A. I was not there.

6 Q. But as you've already told us, if the agreed evidence is right,

7 you must have been there that day, later on at least.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: On that one he said he might have arrived in the

9 afternoon.

10 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated] ... yes, but he must

11 have been there on the 9th.

12 Q. Correct? You've already told us you were sure you were there on

13 the 9th.

14 A. I told you that I can't remember the dates. It is possible that

15 I did not arrive there the same time the forces arrived. I might have

16 arrived there in the afternoon. That's what I told you earlier. I can't

17 remember.

18 Q. You also told us that you thought you were there for two or three

19 days before the incident on the 10th. But now you're saying you might

20 have arrived on the afternoon of the 9th. Is that correctly understood?

21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think you have made your point on this.

22 MR. EMMERSON:

23 Q. On the -- on the basis of that, it follows, Witness 77, that you

24 were certainly there within hours of the arrival of the FARK forces in

25 Prapaqan; correct?

Page 1270

1 A. I did not arrive there before the forces. I never said that.

2 The way you're putting the dates to me, I can't say anything accurate

3 about them. But what I remember is that I was there.

4 Q. Let's just put it this way to you: You've told us that you're

5 categorically sure that you were there at some time on the day before the

6 incident. And so what I'm asking you, given what we know about the date

7 of the arrival of the FARK forces, is this: When the FARK forces

8 arrived, there were already KLA soldiers stationed inside the Prapaqan

9 barracks, which were then going to be shared; correct or incorrect?

10 A. I don't believe that. I did not see them myself. I never heard

11 that when they arrived there were already military forces in the

12 barracks. If I had heard that, I would have told you.

13 Q. Could you be mistaken about that, Witness 77, bearing in mind

14 that there is other evidence in this case concerning that? Could you be

15 mistaken?

16 A. I said that I never heard that when the FARK forces arrived at

17 the barracks there were other soldiers already there. And I'm not sure

18 what answer you want from me.

19 Q. I'm asking you again: As you arrive, yourself, at Prapaqan, you

20 know the soldiers that came in with FARK, and I'm suggesting that since

21 you clearly arrived on the very same day, whether before or after, you

22 arrived on the very same day in Prapaqan as the FARK forces, were you not

23 aware that there was a process of integration taking place between the

24 FARK forces and the KLA forces that were already stationed there?

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I think, Mr. Emmerson, the witness said, at

Page 1271

1 page 45, lines 9:

2 "I don't believe that. I did not see them myself. I never heard

3 that when they arrived there were already military forces in the

4 barracks. If I had heard that, I would have told you."

5 Now, I think he has answered that question clearly.

6 MR. EMMERSON: The only question I want to batten down with him

7 is, given the number of different answer this witness has given to all of

8 the important questions of fact so far, I want to know whether he is

9 pinning his colours to that mast --

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well --

11 MR. EMMERSON: -- or whether he is saying he could be mistaken in

12 his recollection.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: But that answer suggests that he could be.

14 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.

15 Q. That's the 9th of July. Then on the 10th of July there is a

16 conflict which took place. And you've described in your evidence the

17 fact that the officers were directed to leave the Prapaqan barracks and

18 the soldiers of the FARK permitted to remain.

19 Now, do you remember, or did you know, even, why it was that the

20 officers were being directed to leave?

21 A. I can't tell you exactly why. The person who wanted to expel

22 them should know that. I gave you my personal opinion.

23 Q. So anything you've told us about that incident and its reasons

24 was a matter of your opinion, was that correct, rather than any evidence

25 that you heard?

Page 1272

1 A. I never heard any evidence. I just gave you my personal opinion

2 why that might have happened.

3 Q. I want --

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Emmerson, I think your question was a little

5 unfair, to say everything you've told us is a matter of opinion. He

6 opines only on this --

7 MR. EMMERSON: The reason.

8 JUDGE MOLOTO: On the reason.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry, I thought I'd made that clear.

10 Anything you've told us about that incident and its reasons. I should

11 have said: Anything you've told us about the reasons for that incident.

12 But I think the answer is clear. It doesn't require further questions.

13 Does Your Honour agree, at least, in relation to that?

14 Q. That's helpful. So you're not in a position to contradict the

15 suggestion that there was a disagreement about the deployment of the

16 officers and that that was what lay at the heart of the conflict on the

17 10th of July?

18 A. Which suggestion do you want me to contradict?

19 Q. No, I don't want to you contradict anything. I'm saying: Given

20 that you don't know what the nature of the dispute was, you're not in a

21 position to contradict me telling you or suggesting to you that this was

22 a dispute about deployment of the officers and about their conduct inside

23 the Prapaqan barracks. [Microphone not activated] ... you don't know

24 what it was about. You don't know; is that right?

25 A. I don't know the reason behind that. I told you that I know that

Page 1273

1 I was present when Haradinaj and his team of military police came and

2 expelled the officers. But I didn't say that I knew the reason.

3 Q. No, I'm just clarifying that you don't know the reason.

4 See, we've heard evidence in the previous trial, agreed in this

5 trial to be admitted from Rrustem Tetaj who was present, as you told us,

6 on that occasion, who said:

7 "... we were there when Ramush spoke and I spoke. They," the

8 officers, "left the barracks because they admitted that they were not

9 implementing the rules there at that moment, at that time."

10 Transcript 3756, line 13, previous trial.

11 The officers were, it is suggested, directed to leave and

12 admitted that they were not implementing the rules that had been agreed.

13 You don't know whether that's right or wrong, do you?

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Kravetz.

15 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, the witness has already said that he

16 does not know the reason behind that, and he can't comment on this

17 evidence.

18 MR. EMMERSON: Well --

19 MS. KRAVETZ: On the basis of --

20 MR. EMMERSON: I don't think that specific suggestion has been

21 put to him thus far.

22 Q. The question is: Are you in a position to contradict the

23 evidence of Rrustem Tetaj, that the officers of the FARK admitted that

24 they had broken the rules and that that was the reason given for their

25 expulsion from the Prapaqan barracks?

Page 1274

1 Are you in a position to contradict that?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: It follows ipso facto, Mr. Emmerson.

5 MR. EMMERSON: Well, if Your Honours are content to take it at

6 that, then I'm content to leave it there.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no interpretation.

8 MR. EMMERSON:

9 Q. Give it a moment. Can you hear me now in a language that you

10 understand, Witness?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. EMMERSON: If Your Honours are content to accept that the

13 position is that this witness is not able to contradict that, then I'm

14 prepared to leave the matter there.

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.

16 MR. EMMERSON:

17 Q. Now, that's the 10th. But in the afternoon of the 10th, after

18 that incident occurred, you do know, don't you, that there was then a

19 meeting between Tahir Zemaj, Ramush Haradinaj, and other senior officers

20 on both sides at Lluke?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you know that that meeting, that afternoon, that very same

23 afternoon, the 10th of July --

24 MR. EMMERSON: Which, for Your Honours's note, is minuted.

25 Q. -- that that meeting was arranged to resolve the disagreement

Page 1275

1 that had blown up that morning. You know that, don't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And at that meeting -- presumably you were not present, were you?

4 A. No, I wasn't.

5 Q. But were you told about what happened and what was agreed?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So you had no idea after the -- the date of the 10th what had

8 been agreed between the two commanders?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And then did that remain the position thereafter forever, that

11 you had no idea what they'd agreed? Or did there come a time when you

12 did become aware what had been agreed between them?

13 A. I never knew exactly what was talked about in the meeting. The

14 main thing was that the officers had agreed, but I don't know the

15 details.

16 Q. Never mind the details. What, as you understood it, had they

17 agreed to do?

18 A. They had agreed on several things.

19 Q. What were they?

20 A. As far as I remember, they had divided up the territories, which

21 area would be under the Haradinaj staff and which territory would be

22 under the FARK staff, and they would not mix the two with each other.

23 Q. You see, that last comment isn't true, I suggest. Whether you

24 thought it or not, it's not true. Because on the 12th of July - and the

25 Trial Chamber has this in the record - there are orders signed by

Page 1276

1 Ramush Haradinaj, creating integrated brigades which included FARK

2 soldiers and KLA soldiers in a single brigade. That is the position

3 objectively. Are you telling me you didn't know that the brigades were

4 being integrated?

5 A. I'm not aware of that.

6 Q. I mean, I'm just trying to understand what you were aware of,

7 Witness 77, about the force that you say you were a part of.

8 Which brigade were you in?

9 A. 134rd Brigade.

10 Q. Now, who was the commander of your brigade?

11 A. Tahir Zemaj.

12 Q. I'm sorry, after the formation of the brigades that were created

13 following the meeting of the 10th of July, there were three separate

14 brigades formed, which, I suggest, were integrated between KLA and FARK

15 forces. And I'm asking you who: Was the commander of the particular

16 brigade that you were attached to?

17 A. The one I explained to you.

18 Q. Very well. Can you tell me who Shaban Dragaj was?

19 A. He was one of the officers that entered at the same time as the

20 134rd Brigade. I mean entered Kosovo at the same time.

21 Q. He was part of the FARK commander group, wasn't he?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And Musa Gjakova, also one of the FARK commanders; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you not know that they were integrated into a single brigade

Page 1277

1 on the 12th of July, together with Shemsedin Cekaj and Driton Zeneli as

2 KLA commanders?

3 A. No, I didn't know that.

4 Q. Well, we have all the records, Witness 77. You know who

5 Shemsedin Cekaj was, don't you? He was a member of the KLA forces and a

6 subzone commander under Mr. Haradinaj. You know that, don't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You're telling us you didn't know that as of the 12th of July he

9 was in joint command with Shaban Dragaj of one of the brigades?

10 A. I don't know who was integrated.

11 Q. I'm not asking you for names. Do you know or did you know that

12 the two forces were integrated into joint brigades?

13 A. No, I didn't know. I'm not aware of that.

14 Q. Witness 77, you need to tread very carefully at this point. Your

15 brigade was under the command of Tahir Zemaj; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And Skender Rexhahmetaj, was he connected to these joint brigades

18 at all?

19 A. As far as I know, he was the commander in Isniq village.

20 Q. You see, amongst the exhibits in this case is 65 ter 192, which

21 is a request by Tahir Zemaj in writing to the Dukagjini plain operative

22 staff for the appointment of certain individuals to certain posts. Now,

23 you know who the Dukagjini plain operational staff was, don't you?

24 A. No, I don't know.

25 Q. I see. Well, what I want to suggest to you, in absolutely

Page 1278

1 unequivocal terms, Witness 77, is that the agreed, recorded, independent

2 evidence in this case establishes that as of the 10th of July meeting at

3 Lluke the two forces integrated into joint brigades with commanders and

4 soldiers from both sides and then were distributed by agreement to

5 different locations. That is, in fact, the position.

6 Are you saying you didn't know that?

7 MS. KRAVETZ: The question has already been put to the witness.

8 He has already indicated what is the extent of his knowledge and he has

9 already indicated that he was not privy to any of the meetings where

10 these matters were discussed and has indicated what his position within

11 these forces was.

12 MR. EMMERSON:

13 Q. But the question I'm asking is: Can you -- how can you possibly

14 have been unaware that there was a integration taking place and that

15 Tahir Zemaj had agreed with Ramush Haradinaj to create joint brigades?

16 How can you not have known that, if you were one of the soldiers

17 in those brigades?

18 A. I told you earlier that I was just a foot soldier. But, to my

19 knowledge, these brigades were a continuation of Brigade 134, the brigade

20 in Baran, and the brigade commanded by Musa Gjakova in Palabardhe.

21 Q. I'm going to read to you a line from the evidence of the FARK

22 commander in the previous trial about the formation of these brigades.

23 MR. EMMERSON: And for Your Honours' note, Exhibits 247 and 248,

24 which I don't propose to trouble the witness with, given his account, are

25 contemporary records showing the formation of joint brigades at this time

Page 1279

1 and in consequence of this meeting between the 10th and the 12th of July.

2 Q. And in relation to that, the senior FARK commander that you've

3 told us about testified to this Tribunal that those brigades were

4 formed -- I'm sorry, those brigades that formed were made up of FARK

5 officers as well as the officers already inside Kosovo.

6 MR. EMMERSON: That's transcript T7438 [sic], line 19.

7 Q. Now, if you were a member of one of these brigades, and given

8 that you'd entered Kosovo just a few -- couple of weeks before, together

9 with the FARK officers, and given that the position was objectively and

10 factually greed to be one of integration, is there anything about you or

11 your role or functions which could possibly have insulated you from that

12 knowledge?

13 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, that is the same question, only put in

14 a different way, that was asked at page 53, line 2.

15 He has been asked: How could you not have known, if you were one

16 of the soldiers of that -- those brigades?

17 MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... I'll check the -- let me

18 put --

19 MS. KRAVETZ: [Overlapping speakers] ... same question and --

20 MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... let me put the question.

21 I'll take the objection. Let me put the question another way.

22 Q. Is this another example, Witness 77, of you trying to mislead

23 this Tribunal to create a negative impression of the conflict between

24 FARK and the KLA?

25 MS. KRAVETZ: That is a completely unfair statement to the

Page 1280

1 witness, and it is a matter for submissions. If my colleague wants to

2 make submission on the credibility of the witness, that's really a matter

3 for submissions at a later stage. The witness has already indicated what

4 is his knowledge on this matter. It's --

5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm not confined to exploring the witness's

6 knowledge. I'm perfectly entitled to put the suggestion to him that he's

7 misleading the Tribunal, as he has, in our submission, throughout his

8 evidence on a number of these points. And he's deliberately created the

9 impression and indeed said in terms just a few moments ago in his

10 evidence that these were separate brigades without integration, when the

11 evidence flies completely in the face of it.

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just rule, please.

13 You rephrased your question, Mr. Emmerson, by saying:

14 "Is this another example, Witness 77, of you trying to mislead

15 this Tribunal to creat a negative impression of the conflict between FARK

16 and the KLA?"

17 I'll allow that question.

18 MR. EMMERSON:

19 Q. Are you trying to mislead the Tribunal by creating a spin, a

20 misleading spin, on the evidence, Witness 77?

21 A. No. On the contrary. I am saying what I know. Because I took a

22 solemn oath, and I have to abide but that, to tell the truth and to say

23 what I know.

24 Q. All right. Would you agree with this proposition taken from the

25 evidence of the FARK senior commander - transcript 7642, line 23, in the

Page 1281

1 previous trial - would you agree with this proposition: that after the

2 12th July Mr. Haradinaj and Mr. Zemaj became closer?

3 A. At that moment they were close.

4 Q. Now on the 20th of July, was there a swearing-in ceremony for the

5 troops that had recently arrived, from under the FARK banner, held in

6 Vranoc?

7 A. Can you please ask the question again? I'm not sure I understood

8 it.

9 Q. I'm suggesting to you that the newly arrived FARK soldiers,

10 together with other volunteers, were all called to a large swearing-in

11 ceremony in Vranoc on the 20th of July, which is recorded, as it happens,

12 on video-tape and available to the Tribunal. Presumably you yourself

13 were at that swearing-in ceremony.

14 A. Yes. I was there.

15 Q. Thank you for that.

16 And presiding over that swearing-in ceremony were Tahir Zemaj and

17 Mr. Haradinaj jointly, weren't they?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. Well, they both addressed the troops, didn't they? That was --

20 it was a very public moment when it became clear that both forces had

21 integrated. Isn't that right?

22 A. I told you I don't remember. I do know that I was present, but I

23 don't remember what you are putting to me.

24 Q. And are you saying that even then you didn't realize that the two

25 forces had integrated into joint brigades? Even at the swearing-in

Page 1282

1 ceremony you didn't know that?

2 A. I know that that was a continuation of Brigade 134 and that these

3 two other brigades were formed in the wake of that. This is all I know.

4 You are asking me about what I know, not about what others have

5 said.

6 Q. Yes, I'm asking you because you've told us were at the joint

7 swearing-in ceremony, and we have a video of that ceremony available to

8 the Tribunal.

9 So I'm asking you to be very careful in your evidence,

10 Witness 77. Are you saying that even by the time of that swearing-in

11 ceremony you didn't realize that the two forces had integrated into one?

12 MS. KRAVETZ: The witness has answered that question,

13 Your Honour.

14 MR. EMMERSON: He absolutely hasn't answered it. The last answer

15 is non-responsive.

16 Q. Did you or did you not know on the 20th when you attended a joint

17 swearing-in ceremony at which both forces jointly took the oath of

18 allegiance to Mr. Zemaj and Mr. Haradinaj jointly -- are you telling us

19 you still didn't know then that the two forces had already integrated?

20 A. I told you I don't remember that Haradinaj and Zemaj were

21 present. That's what I said.

22 Q. [Previous translation continued] ...

23 A. Before you asked my this last question.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Emmerson, I know that was not your question.

25 But your question has something new in it which I just want to verify

Page 1283

1 with you.

2 You say this was a joint swearing-in ceremony.

3 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

4 JUDGE MOLOTO: So both forces came -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

5 MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... forces, yes. Into a

6 single unified force, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Emmerson --

9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- I even notice in the same regard that you said

11 to the witness, you asked -- you said to the witness, line 5,

12 page 75 [sic].

13 MR. EMMERSON: No.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: You've told us you were at a joint swearing-in

15 ceremony.

16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: That is not -- that is definitely what the

18 witness told. The went didn't say joint.

19 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Right?

21 MR. EMMERSON: That may be a slip of the tongue. It is a joint

22 swearing-in ceremony. There is no conceivable dispute on that.

23 Q. So let me put it to you this way --

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]

25 Sorry. The question is whether the witness knew or not.

Page 1284

1 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Well, he's told us he didn't know

2 Mr. Haradinaj was there.

3 Q. Are you telling us that by the time of that swearing-in ceremony

4 you still did not know that these two forces had integrated into one,

5 under the command of Mr. Haradinaj?

6 A. I didn't know that.

7 Q. You did or you did not, I'm sorry?

8 A. Didn't. I didn't know.

9 Q. Did -- did you ever become aware much later in August that there

10 came a time when Mr. Zemaj took over from Mr. Haradinaj as commander of

11 the Dukagjini zone following the Serbian offensive in Gllogjan at the end

12 of August? Did you know about that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So if you knew that Mr. Zemaj took over as commander from

15 Mr. Haradinaj at the end of July, is it the position that until then you

16 didn't know that Mr. Haradinaj was the commander of Tahir Zemaj?

17 Sorry, I think that there is a --

18 A. I never knew that Haradinaj was the commander of Zemaj.

19 Q. But at the time when you were at that swearing-in ceremony, you

20 knew, did you not, that Mr. Haradinaj was the commander of the KLA forces

21 in the Dukagjini region, into which your force had entered? You knew

22 that at least.

23 A. Yes. Yes, I knew. But I also knew that never did Brigade 134,

24 to my recollection, enter under Haradinaj's command.

25 Q. That's not what I said. You knew that he was the commander of

Page 1285

1 the KLA.

2 At the swearing-in ceremony, were you all being sworn in to one

3 force?

4 A. I told you earlier, that brigade was formed as a continuation of

5 Brigade 134 with that senior commander, whose name I don't want to

6 mention.

7 Q. At the swearing-in ceremony, were you all being sworn in to one

8 force?

9 A. I had already taken my oath much earlier.

10 Q. Let me put the question another way.

11 Those who were sworn in at the swearing-in ceremony, were they

12 all being sworn in to one force?

13 A. What do you think -- what do you mean?

14 Q. Were they all being sworn in as soldiers of the UCK?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And, to your knowledge, who was the commander of the UCK in the

17 Dukagjini plain on the 20th of July?

18 A. Haradinaj.

19 Q. And you still say you didn't realize they were a combined force,

20 do you?

21 A. I told you that, to my recollection, that brigade was the

22 continuation of Brigade 134. If you want to put something else to me and

23 if you want me to say things to please you, that's something else. I'm

24 telling you what I know.

25 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Emmerson.

Page 1286

1 MR. EMMERSON: Mm-hm?

2 JUDGE HALL: I just want to clarify something with the witness.

3 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.

4 JUDGE HALL: The question and answer that appears at page 58,

5 lines 23 and following, the question, Mr. Witness, that Mr. Emmerson

6 asked was: "At the swearing-in ceremony, were you all being sworn in to

7 one force?" And your answer was that: "I had already taken my oath much

8 earlier."

9 Do I understand that to mean that you personally didn't take part

10 in this ceremony, that you were just an observer?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

12 JUDGE HALL: What was the -- what, then, was the -- how was the

13 distinction made about -- between those who, like you, may have taken

14 their oaths earlier and were just observing, and those who were sworn in

15 on that occasion?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see any difference between

17 that swearing in and the one I experienced earlier.

18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

19 MR. EMMERSON:

20 Q. But it is right, isn't it, Witness 77, that those present at that

21 swearing-in ceremony who did take the oath included the soldiers who had

22 come with you into Kosovo under the FARK banner, or under the FARK

23 command?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, so that we're clear, then, before we go into private session

Page 1287

1 to deal with the particular incident that arose, I just want to look,

2 then, briefly with you at dates again.

3 We know that you, the FARK forces, entered to Isniq on the

4 30th of June, and I'm going to suggest to you, and I think you agree with

5 that, that following the meeting on the 10th of July agreement was

6 reached between the commanders, Mr. Zemaj and Mr. Haradinaj; is that

7 correct?

8 A. There was agreement.

9 Q. So there was a period between the 30th of June and the

10 10th of July, a period of just under two weeks, when you, your forces,

11 were inside Kosovo without an agreement having been reached; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But after the 10th of July agreement was reached. And whether

14 they were integrated or not, the two forces were fighting side by side;

15 correct?

16 A. I never saw them side by side.

17 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... a literal translation. The

18 two forces were fighting in agreement with one another against a common

19 enemy.

20 A. Maybe there was agreement, but I don't know.

21 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... you did know. I don't

22 understand, Witness, why you are fencing over these issues, why you are

23 being so defensive about --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: He said, "There was an agreement,

25 but I don't know."

Page 1288

1 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. In which case I apologise for the

2 comment.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, but what doesn't he know?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... can I

5 say I know if I don't know something?

6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I get clarification here.

7 Sir, you say you do know that there was agreement on the

8 10th of July?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you know whether, from the 10th of July

11 onwards, FARK and KLA were fighting as allies against a common enemy?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To my recollection, the territory

13 was divided into two parts, from Bistrica and Lluke, and further on it

14 was under Haradinaj's command. From Bistrica, on this part, it was under

15 FARK's command. This is how I know it. I can't say something that I

16 don't know.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continued] ... that may be

18 so, sir. But do you know whether even this division of the territory was

19 by agreement so that the two forces fight together, one covering the

20 other area -- the one area and the other covering another area, but they

21 were allies, facing a common enemy? Do you know that as a fact?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. There was an agreement

23 about that.

24 MR. EMMERSON: I ought to make it clear: I'm not going to press

25 this with the witness because of the answers that he's given. But the

Page 1311

1 A. Tahir Zemaj.

2 Q. So we've got the senior FARK commander introducing Mr. Haradinaj,

3 who is standing on the platform, together with Tahir Zemaj, jointly

4 addressing the troops. Do you agree?

5 A. Yes, I agree. But I didn't remember it.

6 Q. Very well. We'll just see how long it went on for so that you

7 can explain to us how you might have forgotten what, I suggest, would

8 have been a very significant moment.

9 [Video-clip played]

10 MR. EMMERSON: Pause there.

11 Q. So now, just so that we're clear, I suggested to you earlier on

12 that this was a joint swearing-in ceremony in which the commanders of the

13 two forces welcomed an integrated force, and you told us that you had no

14 idea, even then, that the two forces had combined; is that right?

15 A. I didn't know that.

16 Q. And yet you tell us that you recognised and knew that the man on

17 the platform was the leader of the Kosovo Liberation Army in the

18 Dukagjin plain, who had, you tell us, you thought, opposed the entry of

19 the FARK forces into Kosovo; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So this must have been a very significant moment, wouldn't you

22 agree, to see the two commanders standing side by side, jointly welcoming

23 recruits into the same integrated force? It must have been a very

24 significant moment for you, because it changed your perception of what

25 was going on, surely, if you recognised it.

Page 1312

1 A. I don't know how long it took, because in a video you can't

2 reflect all the events that took place.

3 Q. That's not my question. If you recognised this man as

4 Ramush Haradinaj, a man who you say at that time you thought had opposed

5 the entry of the FARK officers and soldiers into Kosovo, standing side by

6 side with your revered commander, Tahir Zemaj, and jointly addressing the

7 troops together with the senior FARK commander, you must have appreciated

8 that something significant was taking place.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Emmerson, is this a correct summary of what

10 the witness is supposed to know?

11 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated] Yes. Yes, it is.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Didn't he know about the agreement that was

13 reached on the 10th of July?

14 MR. EMMERSON: He also told us unequivocally that at the time of

15 this joint swearing-in ceremony he had no idea - and he's just confirmed

16 it - that this was an integrated force.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: But that's -- that's totally different.

18 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. Let me put the question totally

19 differently then.

20 Q. Witness 77, you must have realized that it was a significant

21 moment to see Ramush Haradinaj standing on a podium with Tahir Zemaj

22 jointly addressing the troops, mustn't you?

23 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, the witness has said he doesn't recall

24 Ramush Haradinaj was at this swearing-in ceremony, so I don't believe

25 this question is correctly stating the testimony of the witness so far.

Page 1313

1 MR. EMMERSON: Okay. Let me put a different question.

2 Q. Had you ever seen the two together before, jointly addressing

3 troops as commanders in alliance with one another?

4 A. No.

5 Q. On reflection, do you accept that this was a significant moment

6 to have the two of them on the same platform, jointly welcoming recruits

7 into the KLA?

8 A. Yes. I said even earlier, but I don't know how long it lasted.

9 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... you accept that it was a

10 significant moment, to see the two of them together?

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, Mr. Emmerson, I think the witness's

12 testimony, even before this was played, was that he doesn't remember

13 Ramush Haradinaj being there.

14 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated] I understand --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: So -- so when you say --

16 MR. EMMERSON: That's exactly the point I'm seeking to probe.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.

18 MR. EMMERSON: One -- one -- if an event of monumental

19 significance of this kind takes place, one would expect him to remember.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let --

21 MR. EMMERSON: If his recognition is reliable.

22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let me tell you what I'm trying to say to you.

23 And I notice you, Madam Kravetz.

24 You're saying to the witness that -- "Had you ever seen the two

25 together before, jointly addressing troops as commanders in alliance with

Page 1314

1 one another," and he said "no."

2 On reflection, do you accept that this was a significant moment

3 to have the two of them on the same platform jointly welcoming recruits

4 into the KLA.

5 And he says, yes, I said even earlier. But I don't know how long

6 it lasted.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, he means: I don't know how long the video

8 lasted --

9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.

10 MR. EMMERSON: -- in relation to the entirety of the swearing-in

11 ceremony. He's jumping to my next question, which is: How could you

12 conceivably have forgotten?

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.

14 MR. EMMERSON:

15 Q. Let's just be clear: You've accepted, I think, Witness 77, that

16 it was a very significant moment to have the two commanders addressing

17 the troops jointly. Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And however long it was that Mr. Haradinaj spoke for, are you

20 suggesting to me that the officers on the ground didn't realize that this

21 was a joint command?

22 MS. KRAVETZ: I don't believe that's what the witness has said.

23 Maybe Mr. Emmerson -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

24 MR. EMMERSON: It's a question.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's a question. He's not being asked whether he

Page 1315

1 said so. He's just being asked the question.

2 MR. EMMERSON:

3 Q. Let me put the question again.

4 Are you suggesting that the officers on the ground did not

5 realize that the commander of the Dukagjini KLA and the commander of the

6 FARK forces were operating as a joint command?

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before the witness answers - and I'm sorry to

8 interfere - I don't think he can speak on behalf the other --

9 [Overlapping speakers] ...

10 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.

11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ...

12 MR. EMMERSON: Did he -- let me put this question a different

13 way.

14 Q. If you'd seen this, Witness 77, would you have realized that the

15 two commanders were now operating jointly?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So what would you have made of it then? Swearing soldiers into

18 the same force, under the same emblem of the KLA, with them being

19 welcomed and addressed by Tahir Zemaj, the senior FARK commander, and

20 Ramush Haradinaj, on the same platform.

21 How would you have interpreted those events?

22 A. If you listen to their statements, they are contrary to one

23 another. Then you can understand that there is nothing in common between

24 them.

25 Q. Very well. Well, I will look at some other documents, then, if

Page 1316

1 that's your answer. Because we can deal with the transcript of the video

2 in due course. But if your suggestion is that they were continuing to

3 operate as separate forces, let's look at some documents.

4 MR. EMMERSON: 65 ter 192, please.

5 Q. I think you can see, can you not, that that is a request

6 addressed to the Dukagjini plain operational staff and signed by

7 Tahir Zemaj. Do you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And so he's requesting something of somebody, isn't he?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was there any more senior FARK officer inside Kosovo at that time

12 than Tahir Zemaj?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And you know, don't you, that the Dukagjini plain operative staff

15 was the staff of which Ramush Haradinaj was then titular head?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So this Mr. Zemaj requesting Mr. Haradinaj to authorise certain

18 action. Do you agree?

19 A. It seems like that, yes.

20 Q. So let's look at what he's requesting:

21 "Pursuant to the 10th July 1998 agreement," that's the day of the

22 incident you've told us about in the barracks at Prapaqan, "we," that is,

23 your commander, "hereby request the appointment and job specifications of

24 military officers in the operative brigades."

25 Do you see that?

Page 1317

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then we can see various people listed there, including

3 Mr. Zemaj himself, asking to be appointed as the officer in charge of

4 infantry. Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... down a little. He's also

7 asking, at 8, that Shemsedin Ceku be appointed as an officer in charge of

8 infantry; do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You know who Shemsedin Ceku is, don't you? He was a leader of a

11 subzone, a subzone commander of the KLA before you entered Kosovo, wasn't

12 he?

13 A. Well, you're asking the question and answering the question

14 yourself. But, yes, that's correct.

15 Q. I'm asking you to agree with the proposition.

16 Number 18: Mr. Zemaj is asking for the appointment of

17 Rrustem Tetaj. Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Skender Rexhahmetaj, who's given evidence in this trial; do

20 you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And Gani Gjukaj, you see him?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Those were all KLA commanders operating within the Dukagjin zone

25 before FARK entered, weren't they?

Page 1318

1 A. Not all of them.

2 Q. The names that I've just read out to you. Shemsedin Cekaj,

3 Driton Zeneli, Rrustem Tetaj, Skender Rexhahmetaj, and Gani Gjukaj.

4 Those men. They were all KLA commanders before you came in, weren't

5 they?

6 A. Yes, those three or four, yes.

7 Q. Whereas the others, of course, were FARK officers, weren't they?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This is a document in which Mr. Zemaj's asking Mr. Haradinaj to

10 agree the appointment of officers in a combined forces, some from FARK

11 and some from KLA, isn't it?

12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Kravetz.

13 MS. KRAVETZ: It is not within the scope of knowledge of this

14 witness to --

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: He can tell us -- [Microphone not activated]

16 MR. EMMERSON:

17 Q. That's what this document is, isn't it?

18 Do you want me to repeat the question?

19 A. Yes, please, if you can.

20 Q. My question is: This is a request from Tahir Zemaj to

21 Ramush Haradinaj to agree the appointment of officers, some from FARK and

22 some from the KLA, into a joint force, as a result of the

23 10th of July agreement.

24 Would you agree with that?

25 A. I told you earlier that I don't agree. Not that I don't agree

Page 1319

1 per se, but I don't know about these facts.

2 Q. Well, let's ask about your own brigade, which you presumably do

3 know about.

4 MR. EMMERSON: Can we look at P245, please.

5 Q. Do you see that document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So it's dated the 12th of July. And we've got only one page on

8 the English translation. But can you see, can't you, that in the

9 Albanian it is signed by Mr. Haradinaj. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So it's an authorisation signed by Mr. Haradinaj which reads as

12 follows. First of all, I should say this: It is addressed to Mr. Zemaj.

13 Do you agree with that?

14 A. Yes, I can see that.

15 Q. And it says:

16 "Due to the restructuring of combat formations and operative

17 means to establish the desired leadership, command ... control,

18 subordination, and the completion of war tasks, I," that is,

19 Mr. Haradinaj, "... authorise officer Tahir Zemaj to form the first

20 brigade ..."

21 Do you see that?

22 A. Yes, I can see it now.

23 Q. That's your brigade, isn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The formation of which was authorised by Mr. Haradinaj following

Page 1320

1 the request we've just seen from Mr. Zemaj. Do you agree?

2 A. I told you earlier I'm not aware of these documents.

3 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... about whether you were aware

4 of them. I'm asking about whether you agree that that's what they say,

5 that the brigade that were yourself a part of and which you've given

6 evidence about, and you've been called by the Prosecution to tell the

7 Trial Chamber about FARK.

8 A. Interpretation, please. I'm not receiving any.

9 Q. Can you hear me now in a language you understand?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You understand that you've been called by the Prosecution to give

12 evidence about relationship, in part, between FARK and the KLA. You've

13 been asked lots of questions about that by Ms. Kravetz.

14 A. As far as I know, only a few questions were asked of me about

15 this. We mostly spoke about the incidents that happened than about the

16 relationships between the FARK and the KLA.

17 Q. You repeatedly volunteered the opinion that Mr. Haradinaj was

18 obstructive and seeking to prevent the FARK from entering. And you

19 expressed the opinion that so far as you were aware these forces remained

20 separate. That's your testimony. And so I'm inviting you to comment on

21 your own brigade that you've told us all about, headed by Mr. Zemaj.

22 What I'm suggesting to you is that Zemaj was appointed as

23 commander of that brigade by Mr. Haradinaj. Do you agree or not?

24 A. I wasn't aware of that. I already told you so.

25 Q. But in the light of what you've seen, do you agree that you must

Page 1321

1 have been under a misapprehension then?

2 A. I did not understand your question.

3 Q. In the light of what these documents prove, do you accept that

4 you were under a misapprehension about the relationship between the two

5 forces of which you were a part? Or one of which you were a part of.

6 A. There were orders from both sides, I think. However, as I told

7 you, I can't remember. I don't remember whether there was agreement for

8 the formation of these brigades.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Can we look at P242, please. P242. Another of

10 the brigades. This one dated the 11th of July, signed by Mr. Haradinaj,

11 and authorising Shemsedin Cekaj to form the 2nd Brigade.

12 So we're now dealing with the 2nd Brigade. And the 2nd Brigade

13 contained FARK soldiers and officers, didn't it?

14 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know these documents.

15 Q. I'm not asking you about documents now, Witness 77. You know

16 that the 2nd Brigade, which included soldiers and officers who'd come

17 into Kosovo with you under the FARK authority, you knew that the

18 2nd Brigade that was formed, the time that you were part of the

19 1st Brigade, was a brigade that included FARK officers and soldiers,

20 weren't you?

21 MS. KRAVETZ: The witness has answered the question. He said

22 that he was not aware of that. That's at line 22 of page 93.

23 MR. EMMERSON: He said: I don't know these documents.

24 Q. I'm asking you: Did you know that the 2nd Brigade contained FARK

25 soldiers an officers?

Page 1322

1 MS. KRAVETZ: I'm sorry to interrupt again, but the first part of

2 that answer says "I'm not aware" --

3 MR. EMMERSON: Let's clarify what the witness meant.

4 Q. Did you say -- did you know that the 2nd Brigade contained FARK

5 soldiers and officers or not?

6 A. This the first time I hear this.

7 Q. Very well.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Can we then, please, look at P248, because this is

9 the formation of the 2nd Brigade's personnel.

10 Q. Because you've told us a little bit about some of these people

11 already.

12 MR. EMMERSON: P248, please.

13 Q. Again, dated the 12th of July and following on from the

14 10th of July meeting. And you can see at paragraph 2 that Mr. Haradinaj

15 has appointed Shemsedin Cekaj as commander. Do you see that?

16 A. Yes, I see it.

17 Q. And who are the first two names on the list as Chief of Staff and

18 commander of the 1st Battalion?

19 Shaban Dragaj and Musa Gjakova; do you see those names?

20 A. Yes, I see.

21 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... about those two men, and you

22 told us you knew that they were part of the FARK officer corps; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So does it follow that you knew that two of the FARK officer

25 corps were from the 12th of July under the command of Shemsedin Cekaj, a

Page 1323

1 KLA commander?

2 A. I am not aware of that. I know that Musa Gjakova was commander

3 of 133rd Brigade in Palabardhe.

4 Q. Do you know who Driton Zeneli is, the third name on the list?

5 A. No. This is the first time I've heard this name.

6 Q. But you'd accept from me, would you, that what this document

7 shows is that the two senior FARK officers who you were fully aware of,

8 because you told us this morning you knew that they were FARK officers,

9 were, according to this document, under the command of Shemsedin Cekaj,

10 from the 12th of July? Would you agree with that?

11 A. I don't know about that. I can't say.

12 Q. Who was their commander then, please, these two senior officers

13 that you say you know, Shaban Dragaj and Musa Gjakova? Who did you

14 understand to be their commander; and which brigade did you understand

15 them to be a part of, yours or another one?

16 A. I can see Shaban Dragaj and Musa Gjakova. Musa Gjakova was an

17 appointed -- a commander appointed by Tahir Zemaj in the Palabardhe area,

18 while Ramabaja was commander of the 131st Brigade.

19 Q. So if the position is that these documents -- and you've seen

20 one -- a request signed by your own commander, Tahir Zemaj, requesting

21 this allocation or this series of allocations. If these documents

22 properly reflect what they say, then you would agree, wouldn't you, that

23 the two forces were amalgamated from the 12th of July onwards under a

24 joint command?

25 A. I am not aware of that. I don't know. I can't say I agree with

Page 1324

1 something I don't know.

2 Q. And right -- that remained the position right up to the moment

3 when, on the 20th of July, you yourself saw them jointly on a platform

4 receiving recruits into a joint force, did it?

5 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I don't recall the witness saying that

6 he saw them jointly on a platform receiving recruits.

7 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. We've just looked at a video-tape of

8 an incident, an event, at which this witness was present, in which both

9 Mr. Zemaj and Mr. Haradinaj took an oath of allegiance from the troops on

10 the 20th of July at Vranoc, in which the witness says he was present.

11 MS. KRAVETZ: The witness has said -- the question is framed with

12 the date of "... 20th of July, you yourself saw some them jointly," and

13 the witness has indicated that he does not recall Mr. Haradinaj being at

14 that -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think you're -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

16 MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... that you were present,

17 yes --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Emmerson. You're going to make a

19 distinction between what the witness saw now on the -- on the video and

20 what he told us he saw on the 20th of July.

21 MR. EMMERSON:

22 Q. Essentially, Witness 77, you would have the Tribunal believe that

23 all of this amalgamation simply passed you by and you knew nothing about

24 it, wouldn't you?

25 A. I think these things you're showing to me here are illogical. I

Page 1325

1 was not aware of them.

2 With regard to the swearing-in ceremony, it is possible that

3 another officer and myself arrived there later.

4 Q. I see.

5 A. What I'm trying to say, that it was not possible for me to see

6 those commanders, the senior commanders, there earlier. That's why I

7 repeated over and over again that I can't remember them -- him being

8 there.

9 Q. So in order to reconcile your testimony, we have to understand it

10 this way: That on the 9th of July you arrived at Prapaqan late, just

11 after the forces had arrived, because that's the only way to reconcile

12 your testimony, and on the 20th of July you arrived at the swearing-in

13 ceremony, you managed to catch enough of it to see the swearing-in but

14 didn't see the speeches that we've just seen; is that right?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Kravetz.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: That is not a correct statement of the witness

17 evidence. What he just said was that it was -- that it is possible that

18 he arrived -- I'm looking for the exact passage -- he arrived late.

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

20 MR. EMMERSON:

21 Q. Your testimony, as I understand it, is that you didn't see the

22 speeches - is that right or not? - at the Vranoc swearing in.

23 A. Had I seen them, I would have said so. But I didn't.

24 Q. So you must have missed the speeches at Vranoc and arrived at

25 Prapaqan on the 9th of July, just in time to miss the arrival of the

Page 1326

1 forces. That's the effect of your testimony, isn't it.

2 A. At the moment, we're speaking about Baran. I did not watch the

3 speeches. I did not see Haradinaj or Zemaj holding any speeches there.

4 This is what I know and what I'm saying.

5 Q. What were you doing there then? I thought you'd come to watch

6 the swearing-in ceremony.

7 A. I was just escorting an officer to Baran. Because he was not

8 from that area and he did not know the way to Baran, so he asked me to

9 escort him up to Baran, and I did.

10 Q. In answer to a question from Judge Hall, you said that you

11 were -- having been sworn in yourself on an earlier occasion, you were

12 there to watch. Did you have to take that officer there in time for him

13 to be sworn in?

14 A. No. He said he had been invited but he didn't know where the

15 place was, so I helped him.

16 Q. And did you arrive late, then, you and this officer who you were

17 taking?

18 A. I did not see the speeches.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you want me to say that I saw

21 them when I didn't, that's a different matter. I'm saying I did not see

22 the speeches. Whether I was late or not, I can't precisely tell you.

23 What I can tell you is that I was not there for the speeches.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would that be a convenient moment?

25 MR. EMMERSON: It would, Your Honour.