Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1590

 1                           Tuesday, 1 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good afternoon to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 9             This is case number IT-04-84bis-T, the Prosecutor versus

10     Ramush Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj, and Lahi Brahimaj.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

12             Could we have the appearances for the day, please, starting with

13     the Prosecution.

14             MR. ROGERS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Paul Rogers for the

15     Prosecution, together with Ms. Priya Gopalan, Ms. Daniela Kravetz, and

16     our Case Manager today, Ms. Line Pedersen.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

18             And for the Defence of Mr. Haradinaj.

19             MR. EMMERSON:  Ben Emmerson for Ramush Haradinaj, together with

20     Rodney Dixon, Annie O'Reilly, and Andrew Strong.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

22             For Mr. Balaj.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of Mr. Balaj, with

24     Colleen Rohan, Chad Mair, and Gentian Zyberi.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 


Page 1591

 1             And for Mr. Brahimaj.

 2             MR. HARVEY:  Richard Harvey for Mr. Brahimaj.  With me,

 3     Mr. Paul Troop, Mr. Luke Boenisch, and Ms. Rudina Jasini.  Thank you,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Harvey.

 6             May the Chamber please move into private -- closed session.

 7                           [Closed session]

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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.  Thank you.

 


Page 1592

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             Mr. Rogers.

 3             MR. ROGERS:  Thank you.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Rogers: [Continued]

 5        Q.   Witness, you were telling us yesterday, as we closed, that you

 6     were -- after the incident in Gllogjan, you went back to the village of

 7     Jabllanice; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honours, I think we'll need to have a short

10     moment in private session.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

12                           [Private session]

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13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

15     you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

17             Yes, Mr. Rogers.

18             MR. ROGERS:

19        Q.   Witness, I just want to ask you a little bit more about the

20     compound where you were detained and beaten.

21             When you first entered that compound, did you see any other

22     persons than Mr. Brahimaj who was walking in front of you, as I

23     understand your evidence?  Did you see anybody else immediately as you

24     entered the compound?

25        A.   When I entered the yard, I saw people in uniform, but I didn't

 


Page 1598

 1     recognise any of them.  I didn't pay any attention, to tell you the

 2     truth.

 3        Q.   Approximately how many people in uniform did you see?

 4        A.   Four or five.

 5        Q.   And at the entrance to the compound, were there any persons there

 6     in uniform?

 7        A.   There were two at the door.  Three or four of them were in the

 8     yard in front of the house where I went together with Lahi.

 9             When I went into the house, I didn't see anyone.

10        Q.   And are you able to help now with whether those individuals that

11     you saw were armed?

12        A.   Yes, yes.  The ones at the gate were armed.  The other ones in

13     the yard, I'm not sure whether I saw -- whether they were armed or not.

14        Q.   What was your understanding, if any, about who was in charge at

15     that place where you were detained?

16        A.   I didn't understand the question.  Can you repeat it, please.

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... all right, let me put it

18     more simply.  Do you know who was in charge at the place or did you know

19     at the time who was in charge at the place where you were detained?

20        A.   As far as I'm concerned, I think Lahi Brahimaj was in charge.

21     Maybe there was somebody else.  But, in my case, he was the one who dealt

22     with me.

23        Q.   It may be obvious from your last answer, but let's be clear.

24             What was it that made you think that Lahi was in charge?

25        A.   Because he was mentioned a lot, most of the time.  I don't think

 


Page 1599

 1     there was anyone else.  And we knew that he was the one who organised the

 2     defence of the village, the youth to join the UCK, the KLA.  Maybe he

 3     wasn't the one, but that's what we thought.  I never was there for such a

 4     long time to know who was the main person there.  Had I been a soldier, I

 5     would have known probably that -- who was the person who was responsible.

 6        Q.   Can I just ask you how you knew that he was the one who organised

 7     the defence of the village?

 8        A.   It was Lahi who gave the order to my co-villagers to go back to

 9     the village, our village.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And what about the village of Jabllanice?  You were

11     there for quite some time periodically.  What was your understanding

12     about the organisation of the defence of that village?

13        A.   Jabllanice was not as well organised as we thought.  It was at

14     the same level of organisation as the other villages around.  I don't

15     think they had done anything extra.  However, people spoke about the

16     staff in Jabllanice, and that was it.  But there was nothing special

17     about it, I think.

18             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honours, could we just briefly go back into

19     private session, please.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

21                           [Private session]

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13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

15     you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

17             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

18             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honour, by joint agreement, I'm to go first for

19     the Defence.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  By all means, you take the floor.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Just for clarification of transcript, we are in

22     open session.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:

25        Q.   Witness, my name is Richard Harvey, and I represent

 


Page 1602

 1     Lahi Brahimaj.

 2             I am not going to be asking you many questions about the claims

 3     that you have made of specific things that you say Lahi Brahimaj did to

 4     you or that he caused others to do to you.

 5             Do you understand?  I'm not going to be asking you much about

 6     that.

 7             I am going to be saying this to you, witness, and I want you to

 8     understand where my questions are coming from:  One, that you have

 9     exaggerated what actually happened to you; and you have made false

10     accusations against Lahi Brahimaj.

11             You understand what I'm going to put to you?

12        A.   I understand.  But I have not made any false statements.  I'm

13     telling here the truth of everything that happened to me.  This is

14     something that happened to me.  I didn't here it from anybody else.  This

15     is what really happened.  And my body suffers to this day from what

16     happened at the time.

17        Q.   I will also be putting to you that you have deliberately blamed

18     Lahi Brahimaj because he caused you serious public embarrassment in your

19     village and among your co-villagers when he accused you of stealing and

20     selling a Kalashnikov.

21             You understand what I'm putting to you now?

22        A.   I never stole it or sold it.  I couldn't do that.  If I had

23     stolen or sold it, I could have done that easily.  It was just a simple

24     gun.

25        Q.   We'll come to that.

 


Page 1603

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15             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... may -- may I

16     interrupt you.

17             May the Chamber please move into private session.

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 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 5             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 6             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   I just asked you whether, on the last occasion, you said on two

 8     separate occasions to the Trial Chamber that it was one or two weeks

 9     before the 19th of May that the men -- the KLA men from Jabllanice came

10     to your village.  And you say, No, it was one or two days before the

11     19th of May.

12             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, I hate to interrupt Mr. --

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Harvey.

14             MR. HARVEY:  Yes.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Isn't that asked an answered?

16             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honour, it was asked an answered in private

17     session, and I thought it would better be to put it on the public record.

18     That was my reason for doing it again.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Okay.  Okay.

20             MR. HARVEY:  I don't want to be tedious.

21             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I do apologise in disrupting Mr. Harvey and the

22     questioning as far as he sees them right now.  But looking at the last

23     question, I'm a bit confused because we have "the last occasion."  I

24     don't believe there's any prohibition to us mentioning the prior trial

25     proceedings here.  Or because we have, in the question: "... last

 


Page 1609

 1     occasion, you said on two separate occasions ..."  so it becomes a bit

 2     cumbersome in terms of understanding precisely what proceeding we're

 3     talking about and what the witness testified to at that prior proceeding.

 4             And I just ask for some clarification from Mr. Harvey in regards

 5     to the language that he's using here.  Because if we have too many

 6     occasions, I think the record is going to start getting somewhat

 7     confused.  Independent of the -- any of the concerns that Judge Delvoie

 8     has, and I share Mr. Harvey's position with regard to that.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harvey.

10             MR. HARVEY:  Occasionally I don't ask questions in the most

11     artful fashion.  I will ask the question a little more helpfully for the

12     record.

13        Q.   You testified here once before, didn't you, sir?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And when you testified before, you twice told the Trial Chamber

16     then that the KLA had first shown itself in your village one or two weeks

17     before the 19th of May, didn't you?

18        A.   I don't recall to have said that.

19        Q.   I have read to you from the transcript.  Nobody has taken

20     exception to what I have read to you from the transcript.  Do you say the

21     transcript is wrong or that maybe you were mistaken?

22        A.   I'm just saying that I don't recall that I have said that.  But

23     even if I did say that, now I'm saying it's wrong.  This didn't happen

24     two, three weeks ago -- two, three weeks before the 19th of May, but only

25     two, three days before that date.


Page 1610

 1             In addition to that, in my village it was not possible to do

 2     that, to hold a rally to that effect, because we had a mixed population.

 3        Q.   Were you present when the KLA first showed itself in your

 4     village?

 5        A.   Yes.  That day, I was present.  Yes, I was.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Harvey, in light of a previous answer given by

 7     this witness, I'm not quite sure whether that's an absolutely fair

 8     question.  Previously he just said a few minutes ago, They might have

 9     been there a year, but I saw them on such and such a day.  So to say,

10     Were you present when they first came? I think would be a little unfair.

11     You would have to say, When did you first see them in your village?

12             MR. HARVEY:

13        Q.   Again, going back to the last occasion - I'm looking at the

14     bottom of page 7897, the last time you testified - you told the

15     Trial Chamber that rumours had it that it was Lahi, Lahi Brahimaj, "but

16     not having been present myself, I cannot say."

17             Well, were you present when Lahi Brahimaj came to your village

18     just before the 19th of May?

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 9   (redacted) participated in the war.  Usually there have been two or three

10     members --

11        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry -- I'm sorry to

12     interrupt, witness, but if you could concentrate on the question and give

13     a straightforward answer to it, I think that will make matters easier for

14     all of us.

15             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honours, before he does, can we go into private

16     session.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

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18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

21             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

22             MR. HARVEY:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23        Q.   Before your village came under attack, there were attacks on

24     Kpuz; yes?  Yes or no?

25        A.   Yes.

 


Page 1616

 1        Q.   There was an attack on Boksiq, was there not?

 2        A.   No.  No.  From Kpuz, the attack continued against our village,

 3     not on Boksiq.

 4        Q.   Was Boksiq ever attacked?

 5        A.   Boksiq was attacked after the 21st of May.

 6        Q.   And they attacked Kpuz two or three days before they attacked

 7     your village, didn't they?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes, I think.  As far as I remember.

 9        Q.   And that was when, was it, that your -- that family member asked

10     you if you would assist in the defence of your village?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And he told you that the KLA definitely existed; and you were

13     pleased to learn that, weren't you?

14        A.   Yes, of course.

15        Q.   There were ten to 14 weapons available to your co-villagers just

16     before the Serb attack, weren't there?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Where did those weapons come from?

19        A.   I don't know.  Either my co-villagers had them or they were

20     brought from Jabllanice or some other village.  I don't know where they

21     came from.  But most of the villages did have weapons.

22        Q.   Where did you get your weapon from when the attack began?

23        A.   Not before the attack began but after the attack began, they left

24     and dropped the weapon that Lahi accused me belonged to Vesel.  He left

25     and gave -- left the weapon there, so I took the weapon and used it until


Page 1617

 1     we ran out of munition.  But before, I didn't have any weapon.  I was

 2     waiting there either to help out someone who was wounded or if someone

 3     was wounded, to take his weapon and try to resist where I was positioned.

 4   (redacted)

 5     Rukovina, and we others, we other villagers.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Harvey.  Names are being thrown around

 7     here.  I'm not quite sure -- although he's not standing up, I keep seeing

 8     Mr. Rogers also shaking his head, but I seem to suspect his concern is

 9     the same as I have.

10             MR. HARVEY:  And one that I share.

11        Q.   Witness, again, I simply asked you the question:  Where did you

12     get your weapon from when the attack began?  And you gave us a very

13     extensive answer about all kinds of people and different places where you

14     were.

15             Witness, please, wait until I've asked you a question.  Please.

16             Now, the question -- excuse me, witness --

17        A.   Yes, yes, but --

18        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... excuse me, witness, I have

19     not asked you a question yet.  Please wait until you are asked a

20     question.

21        A.   [In English] Okay.

22        Q.   When the attack began, you're saying you had no weapon, on the

23     19th of May; is that correct?

24        A.   [Interpretation] Correct.

25        Q.   You're saying that you were in point number 2; correct?

 


Page 1618

 1        A.   Yes.  Point number 2.  That's where I was.

 2   (redacted)

 3     that correct?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's the point, that name.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honour, I don't think there should be a problem

 7     with that.  He died in the course of that attack.  And I don't think it's

 8     going to lead to the identification of any person.

 9             If Mr. Rogers has a concern, I'm sure we'll all listen to it, but

10     I don't see that it's a matter in dispute or of concern.

11             MR. ROGERS:  Perhaps we could just have a brief moment in private

12     session.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

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10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

13             Would that be a convenient moment, Mr. Harvey?

14             MR. HARVEY:  Yes, it would, Your Honour.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.  I beg

16     your pardon.  Before we do so, may we go into private -- closed session.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

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 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 7             We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.

 8             Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

25             Yes, now, Mr. Harvey, you do your best now.

 


Page 1627

 1             MR. HARVEY:  And may we move into private session, please,

 2     Mr. Registrar.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 4     Mr. Registrar.

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23             We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 6.00.

24             Court adjourned.

25                           --- Recess taken at 5.18 p.m.


Page 1660

 1                           --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 3                           [Closed session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

14             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

15             MR. HARVEY:  May we have 3D250108 back on the screen.  Thank you.

16     And for the moment I've asked that it be shown only in Albanian, and

17     the -- could we go into private session, please.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

19             But why do you want Albanian only?  We also want to follow what

20     you're going to discuss.

21             MR. HARVEY:  We've been having some technical difficulties doing

22     both.  I don't know whether the Registrar -- sorry.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

 


Page 1661

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 6

 7

 8

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10

11 Pages 1661-1668 redacted. Private session.

12

13

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15

16

17

18

19

20

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Page 1669

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.  Thank you.

 4             MR. EMMERSON:  And can I indicate, as a matter of courtesy, that

 5     I've -- we have notified the Prosecution of certain documents that we

 6     would potentially ask this witness some questions about but they're all

 7     documents that were on the Prosecution's original 65 ter list.  So

 8     although the notifications weren't given timeously, I think there's no

 9     difficulty.  And I see Mr. Rogers nodding.  But I'm -- given past

10     practice, I'm raising the issue with the Chamber just to let you know.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

12        Q.   Witness 3, I'm going to ask you some questions on behalf of

13     Ramush Haradinaj.  They'll be relatively short, and I very much hope that

14     we'll finish by the end of today.  Or at least I shall certainly finish

15     by the end of today.

16             And I want to focus on that one occasion at the end of July 1998

17     when you've told us that you were taken to Gllogjan.

18             First of all, can I just get the time-frame clear.  The ordeal

19     that you've been describing, that's to say, the issues and treatment that

20     you've been giving evidence about in relation to Lahi Brahimaj, that --

21     that took place across, I think, a two-week period, is that right, from

22     about the 13th of July to the end of July?

23        A.   I think so.

24        Q.   But --

25        A.   I am not very sure, but I think.

 


Page 1670

 1        Q.   I think -- I think I'm right in saying that you gave us the

 2     13th of July as the date for the first incident, that's to say, when you

 3     were taken to Jabllanice, and you've described the treatment there and

 4     your escape from Jabllanice.  And I think you said it was about ten to

 5     12 days later when the second incident or sequence of incidents took

 6     place, ending with you in Gllogjan.

 7             Does that sound right to you?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  After I escaped from Gllogjan -- I was released from

 9     Gllogjan.  I didn't have any problem.  Nobody threatened me or anything.

10        Q.   Nobody threatened you or anything when you were in Gllogjan or

11     after you were released?  What did you mean by that answer?

12        A.   When I was released from Gllogjan, when I came to Jabllanice

13     after some days, only Dukagjini and all these villages were the target of

14     Serb attacks.  So nobody gave any thoughts to -- to me, to other people's

15     businesses.  Because everybody had its own problems - how to escape, and

16     where to find shelter, and so on.

17             From there, I went to Resuje village.  I stayed some days there.

18        Q.   Just pause, if you will, because I'll guide you through with the

19     questions that I'm asking.  But I'm not, at the moment, asking you for

20     all the details of where you went and what happened afterwards.

21             Can I just ask you this.  Sorry, before I do, I should just refer

22     back, please, to page 77, line 13.  On the transcript you're recorded as

23     saying:  "After I escaped from Gllogjan -- I was released from Gllogjan."

24     Just so that we're clear so there'd be no misunderstanding:  You were

25     released, weren't you?  You didn't escape from Gllogjan.


Page 1671

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think line 13 says so.

 3             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  "When I was released from Gllogjan ... and all

 5     these villages were the target of Serb attacks.  So nobody gave any

 6     thoughts to -- to me."

 7             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.  I'm simply clarifying the position for the

 8     transcript, because there's certainly some potential ambiguity.

 9        Q.   Essentially, Witness 3, the position is that after your encounter

10     with the man you believe to be Ramush Haradinaj in Gllogjan, after that

11     you never had any trouble again, did you, with Lahi Brahimaj?

12        A.   I didn't have any contacts with Lahi Brahimaj, ever, until after

13     the war.  I was afraid, of course, that something similar might happen to

14     me again.  But I never ran into him during the war.

15        Q.   Again, it may that be that we're saying the same thing, but after

16     your encounter with Mr. Haradinaj, nobody came to bother you ever again,

17     did they?

18        A.   No.  No.

19        Q.   Can we then go, please, to that night at the end of July - the

20     date doesn't matter particularly - when you've told us in your evidence

21     that Lahi Brahimaj took you to Gllogjan.  And you've described a sequence

22     of events that happened while you were there.  I just want to make sure

23     I've got the order correct and the locations correct.

24             First of all, you told us that you were taken initially into a

25     staff building and up some stairs; is that right?


Page 1672

 1        A.   Yes.  There was a two-storey building.

 2        Q.   And you've given evidence already that a man with blond hair in

 3     uniform abused you in one of those rooms; is that right?  Physically

 4     abused you.

 5        A.   Yes, he was blond.

 6        Q.   You don't, I think, know the identity of the person who inflicted

 7     that unacceptable treatment on you, do you?

 8        A.   I didn't know him from before.  Even if I look at him now, I

 9     wouldn't be able to recognise him.  Because, can you imagine?  I was in

10     the boot of the car for some time and then the boot of the car opened,

11     and, for a few minutes, can you see anything after that?

12        Q.   You don't know his identity.  Am I right in thinking you don't

13     know his rank either?  There was nothing to indicate what rank, if any,

14     he held?

15        A.   No, no.  I don't know that person.  I don't know what he was.  I

16     only know that he was wearing a uniform.  He took me upstairs.

17        Q.   And until the two younger males came into the room, which you've

18     told us about, until then, you were alone with that man; is that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So prior to the entry of those two younger males there was nobody

21     in authority over the person with blond hair, directing him what to do or

22     not to do, as far as you could see; is that right?

23        A.   No, there wasn't.  When Lahi took me there, that person then took

24     me upstairs.  He beat me.  Later on, the two other soldiers in black

25     uniforms came in and they asked me, Why are you here?  I said I don't


Page 1673

 1     know why --

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... pause, because I'm going to

 3     ask you in detail about each of the events that takes place after that.

 4             You gave evidence that two younger men in black uniforms entered

 5     the room; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   And I think at one time or another you thought that at least one

 8     of them was Mr. Haradinaj's younger brother; is that correct?

 9        A.   That's what I thought.  But I don't know whether it's correct or

10     not because I didn't know him.  I don't know him to this day.

11        Q.   That's very fair.  But once those two younger men came into the

12     room, the ill-treatment of you stopped; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.  For the time they were there, the blond man came back to

14     beat me, and they didn't allow him.

15        Q.   I'm going to ask you about that, just so that we have the

16     sequence correct.  They came into the room, and the violence stopped when

17     they came into the room.  Is that correctly understood?

18        A.   The violence had stopped before they came into the room.  The

19     blond man beat me.  He went outside.  And then the two men in black

20     uniform came and asked me the questions, Where are you from?  What are

21     have you done?  What have they accused you of?  And I said I don't

22     know --

23        Q.   Pause.  Pause for a moment.

24             So they asked you these questions, what you were accused of and

25     how you'd got there.  Was it obvious to you that those two young men


Page 1674

 1     didn't know how you had come to be in Gllogjan?  Is that the way it

 2     appeared?

 3        A.   Yes, of course, it was like that.  Because if they knew, they

 4     wouldn't have asked me questions, who brought you here, where have you

 5     come from.

 6        Q.   And I think they asked you whether you had any cigarettes on you

 7     to smoke; is that right?

 8        A.   They asked me, Do you smoke?  I said, Yes, I do, but they're in

 9     the boot of the car.  They brought cigarettes to me.

10        Q.   So at that stage one of them at least left the room and returned

11     with a packet of cigarettes to give to you and a lighter; is that right?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   And you mentioned that the blond man came back into the room.  Is

14     it right that one of the two younger man in black uniforms then made it

15     completely clear to this person that he wasn't to touch you at all?

16        A.   Yes, that's true.  He told him, Don't touch this person anymore.

17     Why he did that, I don't know.

18             As I told you, he asked me, What are you accused of?  I said, I

19     don't know.  And when the blond man came back to beat me again, he said,

20     Don't beat him.  Don't do anything to him.

21             And then they took me to another room.

22        Q.   Pause, because we'll come to the other room in a moment.

23             Do you remember whether they asked you your name?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   But, certainly, is it fair to say that the two younger men who


Page 1675

 1     came into the room seemed to be keen to make sure that you were treated

 2     properly?

 3        A.   Can you repeat the question, please.  I don't think I understood

 4     it.

 5        Q.   Would you agree with me that the two young men in black uniforms

 6     who came into the room were keen to make sure that you were treated

 7     properly?

 8        A.   Yes.  They respected me.  Maybe even more than I deserved.

 9     Because I was taken there as a traitor.  But they respected me.  They

10     asked me my name, What have you done?  But respectfully.

11        Q.   So even though you had been taken there falsely, you say falsely

12     accused of being a traitor, you were treated humanely and respectfully

13     but those two young men in authority; is that right?

14        A.   The wish of my life is to meet those two young men and thank them

15     for treating me humanely.  But I haven't met them after that occasion.

16     That was a matter of hours that I stayed with them, and I was in a bad

17     shape.  I was awaiting my execution at any moment.  That's what I thought

18     at the time.  I wasn't expecting something good to come out of it.

19        Q.   And I'm sure everybody understands your testimony about your own

20     fears at that point.  But what I want to look at is what actually

21     happened to you.

22             So the two young men then showed you into another room.  So we're

23     now in a second room.  Is that also on the upper floor?

24        A.   On the same floor.  But this was a bigger room, about five metres

25     long.


Page 1676

 1        Q.   And that's where you met the man that you believed to be

 2     Ramush Haradinaj, the commander, in that room; is that correct?

 3        A.   That's what I believe.  I think it was him, Ramush.  They took me

 4     to the room, and he suggested to me not to stay near the window because

 5     there would be shelling.

 6        Q.   Just pause there for a moment because I want to get the order of

 7     what was said to you completely clear.

 8             First of all, was he in the room already when you entered the

 9     room, or did he come into the room after you entered it?

10        A.   The two young men showed me to the room.  I went into the room.

11     And then he came, the person that I believe was Mr. Haradinaj, and he

12     asked me --

13        Q.   Pause there, because I'm going to deal with what he asked you in

14     a moment.  So you were brought into the room and then he came into the

15     room.  Before we look at the detail, would you generally agree with me

16     that, as with the two young men in black uniforms, Mr. Haradinaj treated

17     you fairly and courteously throughout?

18             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honours, can I just confirm that it's

19     accepted - so that we're all clear - that the individual that came into

20     the room that the witness believed to be Ramush Haradinaj was in fact

21     Ramush Haradinaj.

22             MR. EMMERSON:  I'm not testifying here --

23             MR. ROGERS: [Overlapping speakers] ... answer was being

24     suggested.

25             MR. EMMERSON:  -- I'm asking the witness questions.


Page 1677

 1             MR. ROGERS:  It just that the questions supposes that the

 2     individual is that individual, and I just wondered whether that's what my

 3     learned friend meant or whether it was a slip of the tongue.

 4             MR. EMMERSON:  I'm using the witness's own designation which he

 5     used in evidence in-chief.

 6        Q.   So when I refer to Ramush Haradinaj, I'm referring to the man

 7     that you've described as the commander who you believed to be

 8     Ramush Haradinaj.  We'll look, a little later on, at what the basis for

 9     your belief is.

10             But would you agree with me -- if I can return to the question,

11     witness, would you agree with me that throughout your dealings with that

12     man, the man you believed to Mr. Haradinaj, you were treated fairly and

13     courteously by him?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.  He asked me whether I had any --

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... don't move on to what he

16     actually asked you just yet.  I'm just asking you to agree with that

17     proposition.

18             And you said earlier you thought that the two young men in black

19     uniforms had treated you better than you would have expected anybody to

20     treat you, given the allegations that had been made.

21             Would you agree that the man you believed to be Mr. Haradinaj,

22     throughout your time in Gllogjan, treated you with respect and dignity?

23        A.   Yes.  At the moment I entered the room, I was in stress.  But

24     when I saw that the men in black uniform were there with me, I felt a bit

25     more hopeful, that I was going to be alive.  The two young men gave me


Page 1678

 1     cigarettes.  They didn't let the other men beat me again.  And then I

 2     became -- to become -- I became hopeful, that I would live.

 3        Q.   So if we can just -- I know there are a number of things that

 4     were said to you by the Mr. -- by the man that you described as

 5     Mr. Haradinaj.  I just want to make sure I've got the order, as far as

 6     you can help us, the order correct.

 7             So, first of all, is it right that he asked you who had brought

 8     you there and what it was that you were accused of?  Is that a question

 9     that he asked you as well?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So was it obvious to you as well that he didn't know who'd

12     brought you there or what it was you were accused of?

13        A.   I believe that he was not aware.  Because it was a matter of

14     time.  When Mr. Lahi Brahimaj took me from the shop, there was no time to

15     discuss with other people.  I'm not sure, but I believe that he was not

16     aware.

17        Q.   And did you tell him that you were accused by Mr. Brahimaj of

18     some form of treason?  Did you tell the man you believed to be

19     Mr. Haradinaj that that's what the accusation was, or what did you say?

20        A.   He asked me my name, where I was from, Who brought you here, and

21     for what?  I told him my name, surname, the name of my village.  He

22     asked, Why are you here?  And I answered that there was a question of an

23     automatic rifle.  I was accused.  He asked me whether I knew someone

24     where I could sleep in Gllogjan --

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... pause there.


Page 1679

 1        A.   -- and I said I didn't.

 2        Q.   Pause there, because we'll come on to the issue of where you were

 3     going to sleep in a moment or two.

 4             You've just told us he asked you your name and where you were

 5     from and who brought you there and for what.

 6             And you say you told him your name, your surname, the name of

 7     your village.  And he asked, Why are you here?  "And I answered ... there

 8     was a question of an automatic rifle."

 9             Now, pausing there, did you tell him that you had been brought

10     there by Lahi Brahimaj?

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   How did he respond when you told him that?

13        A.   He made this noise "shh."  It seemed incomprehensible to him, I

14     think.

15        Q.   What was the noise?  Can you describe it for the record?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's described on the record "shh."

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Like this: "Pwow."  He was, I

18     think, angry, why these things happened, why these bad things happened.

19             MR. EMMERSON:

20        Q.   Angry towards whom, did you think?

21        A.   Of course, that Lahi had taken me there.

22        Q.   I want to read, if I may, to you a passage from a statement that

23     you made to the Prosecutor in August 2007.

24             MR. EMMERSON:  And it's, for Mr. Rogers's note, para 72.

25        Q.   I'm just going to put this passage to you.  This is your


Page 1680

 1     statement.  And I'll just read it slowly so it can be translated for you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Para 2?

 3             MR. EMMERSON:  72.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  72.

 5             MR. EMMERSON:

 6        Q.   You say:  "Ramush Haradinaj also asked me who had brought me

 7     there and when I said it was Lahi Brahimaj, he just sighed.  I got the

 8     impression he was irritated by the fact of my being taken there by

 9     Lahi Brahimaj."

10             Was it a sigh?  Is that the best way to describe the reaction

11     from this person you believed to be Mr. Haradinaj?

12        A.   I described it to you, how -- what I took it to mean.  That he

13     was angry.  And that's why he made that noise.

14        Q.   I just want to be as accurate as I possibly can with you,

15     Witness 3.  I'm not -- I'm not -- I appreciate it's a lot of detail to be

16     asking you about.

17             When you gave evidence in this case on a prior occasion, and this

18     is transcript 7966, lines 8 and 9, you testified that after you had

19     explained who brought you there, the man you believed to Mr. Haradinaj

20     made a sigh and nodded.

21             Do you remember that, a gesture with his head as well?

22        A.   Yes.  I told you, I think.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

24        A.   That's what happened, yes.

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm not sure you did tell


Page 1681

 1     us.  And it's perfectly understandable that you will have your memory

 2     refreshed on certain details.  But you accept that he did that.

 3             And then did he immediately leave the room after that?

 4        A.   No.  After he asked the questions, he showed me into the room and

 5     he suggested that I not sleep near the window.

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... pause -- pausing there.

 7             So he showed you into another room now.  Is this a third room or

 8     is it back into the first room?

 9        A.   No.  I was in a small room.  The young men in black uniform took

10     me to a bigger room, which was a bedroom, I think, because there were

11     some mattresses.

12        Q.   Just -- just so that we're clear:  You started off in one room

13     when you first went into the staff.  Then you told us you were taken by

14     the two young men in black uniform into a second room, where you had the

15     conversation you've just described with the man you believed to be

16     Mr. Haradinaj.  Then were you taken into a third room?

17        A.   No, no.  The same room, the second room.

18        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... that's helpful.  Thank you.

19             Once he'd established how you got there, did this man you

20     believed to be Mr. Haradinaj then ask you whether you had somewhere else

21     in Gllogjan that you wanted to and would be able to stay that night?

22        A.   Yes, he did.

23        Q.   So it must have been clear to you, then, from that point onwards

24     that if you had had friends or family in the village, you were free to

25     go; is that right?


Page 1682

 1        A.   That's correct.  That's what he said to me, Do you know anyone

 2     here so that you can go spend the night with them?  I said, No.  And he

 3     said, I will take you myself to your family in the morning, or find

 4     someone to take you there.

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 6        A.   I told him where my in-laws lived and relatives lived.

 7        Q.   Pause there.  That's very helpful so far as clarification is

 8     concerned.

 9             So when you told him you had no one else to stay with in the

10     village, he said to you that the following morning he would either

11     personally drive you himself back to your family or make arrangements for

12     somebody else to do it?

13        A.   Not to my family house, but to my relatives' or in-laws'.  That's

14     what happened, yes.

15        Q.   And at that point, the understanding between the two of you was

16     that you would be spending the night in Gllogjan and being driven home by

17     either Mr. Haradinaj, as you thought it was, or one of his men, in the

18     morning?  An overnight stay.  Correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   And he offered you to stay in the staff if you wanted to ;

21     correct?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   And he even gave you some guidance about your own safety, that

24     you shouldn't sleep next to the window in case you'd be killed by a

25     Serbian shell; is that correct?

 


Page 1683

 1        A.   Correct.  That's right.

 2        Q.   And can I just ask you about the question of food, because you've

 3     mentioned an offer of food, and I just want to check if I've got it

 4     correctly understood.

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12             Is that -- is that a correct statement of what happened?

13        A.   That's a correct statement.  He brought me to eat.  I didn't feel

14     hungry, but he said, You must eat something.

15             I remember it was a kind of soup.  A potato soup.  And I ate.  He

16     said, You must eat.  And I did eat.

17        Q.   So just to list one or two points about this period of time,

18     then --

19             MR. ROGERS:  Sorry, I don't want to interrupt Mr. Emmerson

20     particularly.  Could we just briefly go into private session.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

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Page 1684

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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.  Thank you.

 


Page 1686

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 2             Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

 3             MR. EMMERSON:

 4        Q.   So, witness, based on the evidence that you've already given, I'm

 5     just going to put some short propositions to you and invite you to agree

 6     with them, without necessarily a lengthy elaboration.

 7             First of all, you understood that you were being given a bed for

 8     the night where you could stay voluntarily, if you chose to do so;

 9     correct?

10        A.   Correct.  That's true.

11        Q.   You'd been reassured that you would be kept safe and taken home

12     in the morning to your relatives; correct?

13        A.   According to those two young men who prevented the blond guy from

14     beating me, I started to feel a little bit reassured.

15        Q.   And you'd been given food and cigarettes and a relatively safe

16     place to sleep the night.

17        A.   Yes, that's right.

18        Q.   Now, there came a point later in the evening when you were called

19     to go downstairs to see the commander; is that right?

20        A.   Yes, that's right.

21        Q.   And, so, having expected that you would be sleeping the whole

22     night there, I think you've said before it was sometime around 11.00 you

23     got a call to come downstairs; is that right?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   Now, you told Mr. Rogers yesterday, perhaps, understandably, in


Page 1687

 1     the context of the testimony you've given, that you were scared when you

 2     were called downstairs, but when you got there, the man that you believed

 3     to be Mr. Haradinaj said to you, Forget about what has happened.  Go home

 4     to your family and forget about everything.  You are free.

 5             Is that right?

 6        A.   That's right.  This is what he told me.  I, of course, had I

 7     known before why he had called me downstairs, I wouldn't be afraid.  But

 8     before going there, I was afraid.  But when I went downstairs, he told

 9     me, You can go to your family.  Don't have anything to do with this.  You

10     are free.

11        Q.   And I think he advised you to stay away from the KLA generally;

12     is that right?

13        A.   He said, Stay away.  Stay away from what happened.  Return to

14     your family.

15        Q.   And can I ask you this, witness.  Did you understand what was

16     being said to you to mean this: that you would be safely now returned to

17     your family and that nothing bad would happen to you again?

18             Is that what you understood this man you thought Mr. Haradinaj to

19     be saying to you?

20        A.   Yes.  When he said these words and when I saw the people who had

21     come to fetch me, I knew that no harm would ever come to me from this

22     person.  And, in fact, I've never been afraid of Mr. Haradinaj.  I didn't

23     know him.  He didn't know me.  And I don't -- I am not afraid even now.

24        Q.   But if that was what he was promising you, that no harm would

25     come to you again, that is exactly what happened, isn't it, Witness 3?


Page 1688

 1     No harm did come to you again after that.

 2        A.   That's correct.  No harm came to me.  No threats.  I didn't have

 3     any contacts with them.

 4        Q.   Would it be fair to say that once you had come to the attention

 5     of Mr. Haradinaj, from that point onwards you were safe?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes, this is what did happen, in fact.  I never had any

 7     problems.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  Would Your Honour just give me a moment.

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             MR. EMMERSON:  Those are my questions, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Emmerson.

12             Mr. Guy-Smith, do you have any questions for the witness?

13             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Based on the questions asked by all the parties

14     thus far and the answers given by this witness, we have no questions.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

16             Mr. Rogers, do you have any re-examination?

17             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honour, yes I do.

18             I apologise to Mr. Guy-Smith for jumping up, thinking he didn't

19     have any questions.

20             MR. GUY-SMITH:  You were absolutely correct.

21             MR. ROGERS:  Your Honour, I do, and I won't be able to conclude

22     them in ten minutes.

23             So may we rise, please, for today, and conclude this witness

24     tomorrow?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.

 


Page 1689

 1             Mr. Witness, just to warn you once again, and I know you know

 2     this, but it is my duty to remind you every time, that you are still on

 3     the witness-stand; you may not talk to anyone about this case until you

 4     are finally excused from further testifying.

 5             Is that okay?  Is that understood?

 6             Thank you so much.

 7             May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 8                           [Closed session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

22             We stand adjourned to tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in the

23     afternoon, same courtroom.

24             Court adjourned.

25                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.52 p.m.,

 


Page 1690

 1                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of

 2                           November, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.

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