1 Thursday, 24 November 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case number IT-04-84bis-T, The Prosecutor versus Ramush
10 Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj, and Lahi Brahimaj.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 Could we have the appearances for today please, starting with the
14 MS. KRAVETZ: Good morning, Your Honours. Daniela Kravetz, for
15 the Prosecution, together with Aditya Menon, our legal intern
16 Andrej Micovic, and our Case Manager, Line Pedersen. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Ma'am.
18 For Mr. Haradinaj.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Ben Emmerson for Ramush Haradinaj, together with
20 Rodney Dixon, Annie O'Reilly, Andrew Strong.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Emmerson.
22 And for Mr. Balaj.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of Idriz Balaj,
24 together with Colleen Rohan, Chad Mair, Gentian Zyberi.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 For Mr. Brahimaj.
2 MR. HARVEY: Good morning, Your Honours. Richard Harvey,
3 assisted by Mr. Paul Troop and Mr. Luke Boenisch for Mr. Lahi Brahimaj.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Harvey.
5 May we move into closed session, please.
6 [Closed session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 Good morning, Mr. Witness.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do you feel today.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not at my best, but ...
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Just to remind you that you're still bound
20 by the declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony to
21 tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.
22 Thank you so much.
23 Mr. Emmerson.
24 WITNESS: 81 [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson: [Continued]
2 Q. Witness, I want to ask you some questions now about what you say
3 happened to these two Roma and this Serb boy after the assaults and
4 ill-treatment that you claim to have witnessed.
5 If we've understood the picture correctly, now on your final
6 version we have two out of these three young men have had their ears cut
7 off and one has had his eye removed. Can you help us, please, exactly
8 how they were taken to the building you say was a hospital?
9 A. I did talk about this, but I will repeat what I said.
10 The local soldiers held them under their arms and took them to
11 the hospital.
12 Q. Were they conscious or unconscious, these three men?
13 A. Sir, I wasn't looking to see if they were conscious or not. They
14 were alive. One could tell that. There was general chaos. It wasn't
15 like a wedding party that we should all be interested in watching them.
16 It wasn't a pleasant sight. But they were alive, you could tell.
17 Q. Were they fighting or resisting?
18 A. Were they able to resist?
19 Q. Just answer the question, please. Were they fighting or
21 A. They were tied, sir. And, of course, any man alive tries to
23 Q. Who tied them?
24 A. They were already tied at the time they were taken out of the
25 basement, so I don't know who did it.
1 Q. So you had nothing to do with tying them?
2 A. I wasn't there to tie people up.
3 Q. You then told us on Tuesday that after they came out of this
4 building they were dead and that their dead bodies were then carried, to
5 be dumped at the lake.
6 Is that correctly understood?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Can we call up 65 ter 3119. Sorry, I think it now
9 has an exhibit number, D201.
10 Can we please turn to paragraph 16.
11 Q. Paragraph 16 reads for the record:
12 "During the interview on the 23rd and the 24th," so over two
13 days, "I stated that after the beatings the three prisoners were taken to
14 a spot outside of Jabllanice near a lake, where they were left behind. I
15 also stated that they were still alive when they were left behind."
16 Why did you, over two days, tell the Prosecutor that the men were
17 taken alive to the lake and left there alive?
18 A. I explained this to you yesterday, the whys and hows.
19 This is my first time in a court of law properly.
20 Secondly, let me answer your question. You are taking it point
21 by point. I was in a state of confusion. In the middle of a town, that
22 I won't say which one, and in the midst of people of an authority I won't
23 mention. Plus, I had gone through and experienced everything that I did.
24 Had you been in my shoes, you would have been afraid, just as much as I
1 Q. You've now told us probably 20 times that script, about how
2 afraid you were, where you were, what was going on in your mind. I'm
3 going to ask you to focus, please, on the question.
4 For two days, you told the Prosecutor these men were left alive
5 at the lake. Why did you lie to the Prosecutor for two days? What was
6 your reason?
7 MS. KRAVETZ: Objection, Your Honour. The witness has answered
8 the question.
9 And, secondly, I would ask - and Judge Hall already cautioned
10 Mr. Emmerson about this yesterday, Mr. Emmerson continues to tell the
11 witness he is lying and asking him why he has lied, and Judge Hall
12 yesterday asked him if he could please put his questions in another
13 manner, because this has a certain cultural implication that the witness
14 may perceive these questions in a different manner than what Mr. Emmerson
15 is intending. But --
16 MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ...
17 MS. KRAVETZ: But the question has already been answered.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Emmerson, please do sit down.
19 MS. KRAVETZ: But the question has been answered. The witness
20 has given the explanation that he can give on this matter.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Emmerson.
22 MR. EMMERSON: I was going to say I'll rephrase the question if
23 it's a difficult one.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thank you, sir.
25 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Emmerson, as you are rephrasing the question,
1 I'm not losing sight of the fact that you -- of the thrust of your
2 question in terms of the varying accounts that he would have given to the
3 Prosecution on the 23rd and 24th. But looking at paragraph 18, in
4 fairness to the witness, shouldn't that be incorporated -- [Overlapping
5 speakers] ...
6 MR. EMMERSON: I'm absolutely -- I'm absolutely coming to
7 paragraph 18.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
9 MR. EMMERSON:
10 Q. What I want to understand, Witness, is when you told the
11 Prosecutor over two days that these men were left alive at the lake, did
12 you know that what you were telling them was untrue? Yes or no.
13 A. Everything I said, even if I'm still in fear for my life, but
14 you're not interested in that, from what I can tell, everything I said
15 was what I knew. I said things as best I could.
16 Now why did I change my account? The second time I met with the
17 Prosecution, it was in a location that was of the Prosecution and not of
18 that other side that I want to mention. At that point I was told not to
19 be afraid and to speak freely everything I know. And the question you're
20 putting to me, Mr. Lawyer, is quite clear to me and you're quite right in
21 putting it.
22 But there is one request that I have for the Judges. You see,
23 every time I go back I have difficulties. I recalled yesterday one
24 particular point that is important for the Judges and the Prosecution,
25 and please, if I could be allowed to say what I have. I recalled it just
2 If you're pressing me on this point, well, let me tell you that I
3 was afraid all that time, and if the Judge told me yesterday that I could
4 speak freely, I remembered something that is very important for the
5 Judges and for the entire trial, because it may inform you of some things
6 that you don't know anything about.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just mention it. Mention this thing that you say
8 you recalled, sir.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All this time I've been here,
10 Mr. Lawyer has been attacking me and I don't know why, because nothing of
11 what happened is a secret. They even produced a documentary of their own
12 and I would ask you to watch that documentary.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt. Is that what you recall?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You didn't let me finish, I'm
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because you're not telling us you recalled, sir.
17 You're telling me what the lawyer is doing to you. So I want you to get
18 straight to what you recalled.
19 Just tell us what you recalled.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I recalled is this: When I
21 was giving my statement, I was under stress and frightened, and I mean my
22 statement here before the Tribunal. I omitted to say one thing. Again,
23 I am afraid still now because my family is somewhere that is not safe.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just say it, sir. We know you are afraid. You
25 have told us all that many times. Just say what is it you recalled
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we were mentioning the Serb, I
3 remembered that there was one other event there as well. As you can see,
4 he is asking me on four points, but there are three-points --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just hold on, just hold on. When you are ready to
6 tell us what you recalled, and if you feel ready and wish to tell it, you
7 will tell us.
8 Proceed, sir.
9 MR. EMMERSON:
10 Q. What's the documentary you're referring to? Have you watched a
11 documentary about something that you think is relevant to this case?
12 A. That is very relevant.
13 Q. When did you watch that? Is it before or after you first gave an
14 account to the Office of the Prosecutor?
15 A. It's widely known on the Internet because they're boasting about
16 what they did. It's known generally on the Internet.
17 Q. Have you done quite a lot of research before giving a statement
18 to the Prosecution or not?
19 A. I don't understand.
20 Q. Did you look at documentaries and material on the Internet before
21 approaching the Prosecutors to give this account about Jabllanice for the
22 first time 13 years after the event?
23 A. What should I be watching it with? I don't have a telephone or
25 Q. I see. Can we just go back, please, then, to the question that I
1 was asking you before.
2 I'm simply trying to get clear when you told the Prosecutor over
3 two days that these men were alive when you left them at the lake, did
4 you know, at that time, that what you were saying was false?
5 A. I've just explained to you that I was scared at the time, and I
6 didn't dare mention ...
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, I'm going to intervene. You have
8 told us that. What you're now telling us is an explanation why you told
9 what you told to the investigator. What you are now being asked is not
10 why you said it but whether you knew at the time when you made that
11 statement that what you were saying was not correct.
12 Now, the appropriate -- thank you so much.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 MR. EMMERSON:
15 Q. If we turn to paragraph 18 you were asked why you had changed
16 your account between the interview on the 24th and the interview on the
17 25th. And you said to the Prosecutors this. You said:
18 "I was very reluctant to provide details to the ICTY with respect
19 to certain events. I also had heard rumours that witnesses were killed
20 in relation to this trial and that ... therefore was worried about my and
21 my family's safety."
22 So is the position this, Witness, that you made a decision to
23 mislead the Prosecutor on the 23rd and 24th because you felt that that
24 would somehow keep you safer? Is that what you're saying?
25 A. I don't understand. What do you mean by that?
1 Q. Take it slowly. You've accepted that when you told the
2 Prosecutor on the 23rd and the 24th that the men were taken alive to the
3 lake, you knew that what you told them was not true. When you've been
4 asked to explain why you told them something that you knew not to be
5 true, you have said that you were afraid as your reason.
6 What I'm trying to explore with you is this: Did you then make a
7 decision to mislead the Prosecutor over two days about this information
8 because you thought that that would somehow make you safer?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Why would you -- having given an account, naming these
11 individuals for having cut off ears and taken out eyes, why would you be
12 safer to say that they had been taken alive to the lake?
13 A. I've told you already where I was. I know why I said it. And
14 you yourself probably know why I did, why I didn't dare say.
15 MR. EMMERSON: Can we please bring up doc ID 1D12-0229 and within
16 this document, please, page 20, which is 0248.
17 Q. While this is it being brought up witness I just want you to
18 understand what it is we're looking at. This is a note taken by the
19 Prosecutor, Mr. Rogers, during the course of your interview, writing down
20 exactly what you were saying as you were saying it. This is what we call
21 a contemporary note of your interview with the Prosecutor. I can see we
22 have still the statement on the screen which may be a little confusing.
23 I don't know if it's possible to remove the statement and focus only on
24 the manuscript text.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do we have a typewritten transcript of the
2 MR. EMMERSON: Well, we have a Defence-prepared typewritten
3 transcript, but we thought it more appropriate to work from the
4 unambiguous or authentic, original. It's a small passage and I think it
5 will be easy enough to follow. Can we highlight, please, the -- is that
6 the right page? No, I'm sorry, it's not the right page. It should be at
7 the top, so it should be 0248. No, sorry, not a rubber band. The page
8 number. It should be 1D12-0248.
9 Just looking at the number at the top, it may be there has been
10 some numerical cross-referencing error, but instead of 6294 the page
11 we're looking for is 6286, so it should be eight pages earlier in the
12 document. It should be the 20th page.
13 Yes, and if we could just highlight the top passage above the
14 manuscript line.
15 Q. Mr. Witness, this is the note that was taken of what you were
16 saying whilst you were still, as you've told us, deliberately misleading
17 the Prosecutor about what happened to these men.
18 If I can just pick it up in the second line. You say:
19 "It was very difficult to drag them to the place like that. They
20 were tied, hands behind their back. We had no proper cuffs. We used
22 Pausing there, did you tell Mr. Rogers that you used rope/wire?
23 A. If I can answer this one right away.
24 He put many questions. As I told you a moment ago, but
25 apparently you failed to understand me, let me tell you this clearly. I
1 gave a confusing answer because he would put one or two questions to me
2 and then I would speak about what I remembered at that point. If I said
3 "we," well, I said so because I was there as a freshman, as a soldier
4 just as my companions were. I didn't mean that I was the one who did the
5 tying or mistreating.
6 I apologise if that sentence is --
7 Q. Can I just put an alternative suggestion to you.
8 Mr. Rogers was asking you for detail about something that you
9 knew you were lying about, i.e., that they were alive when they were
10 taken to the lake. So Mr. Rogers was asking you, Well, if they were
11 alive when they were taken to the lake, how did they get there. And you
12 then gave this description taking these live men to the lake saying, It
13 was very difficult to drag them to a place like that. We used rope/wire.
14 You were giving details of a lie, weren't you?
15 A. When you say "a lie," you are lying yourself. I know what I
16 said. I am aware of what I said. So let me tell you that that's very
17 humiliating coming from you because you're lying at the point you're
18 saying it.
19 Q. Let me avoid the word. I'm sorry, that was careless. You've
20 told us that you knew the account that you gave to Mr. Rogers about this
21 was not the truth. And so he is asking you for details at this point of
22 how you could possibly have taken three live men 10 kilometres across
23 rough terrain and what the details were. And this is you supplying false
24 information in detail, isn't it?
25 A. I'm trying to tell you all this time where I was. All this time.
1 I'm trying to tell you where I was, in what location. As a soldier of
2 the KLA, you're in the middle of, and let me not mention where, and now
3 how could you be able to speak freely? Why don't you put yourself in my
4 shoes and try and speak freely. If somebody is present of their
5 policemen, so how could you be able to speak up?
6 Q. I'm not asking for an explanation and it's a simple question.
7 Yes or no. This is you giving Mr. Rogers false details in support of an
8 account you knew to be false, isn't it?
9 A. Sir, I apologise for having to say this to you again, but had you
10 been in my place then -- I'm not explaining. I'm trying to give you an
11 answer. I don't want explanations. I don't want to be here for a long
12 time, for a year or however long you think I should be here. I want to
13 return. But it seems that you have a lot of time. I am persistently
14 trying to give you an answer, but it seems that you are not understanding
16 I am sorry for having to say this, but really you don't seem to
17 understand. Why don't you spend some time as me, then perhaps you will
18 understand. But it seems you don't have any sense of how it was. But
19 you can say whatever you like. It's easy for you.
20 Q. Witness --
21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, I'm sure I'm not the only one having
22 difficulty following what are you trying to tell the Chamber.
23 You would remember that when Mr. Emmerson began, he asked you to
24 listen carefully to the question and only answer the question. And it is
25 a caution which the Presiding Judge has repeated. I would remind you of
1 that. We -- you're anxious to get out of here as soon as possible. It
2 would assist if you would listen to the question and only answer the
3 question that's asked.
4 MR. EMMERSON:
5 Q. Which I'll ask it one final time to see if you can do that.
6 When you said to Mr. Rogers, "It was very difficult to drag them
7 to a place like that, we used rope/wire," you were giving him false
8 details of an account that you knew to be false, weren't you?
9 A. Well, can I say this right away. Are you saying or do you think
10 that I concealed something? Because the question that you are putting,
11 you are putting in --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just -- stop just there. Just stop there. Stop
13 just there, stop just sir. Stop just there, sir, please.
14 The question again is: When you said to Mr. Rogers it was very
15 difficult to drag them to a place like that, we used rope/wire, you were
16 giving him false details of an account that you knew to be false, were
17 you not?
18 Your answer is: No, I was not; or yes, I was. One of those two.
19 Nothing else.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did know.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
22 MR. EMMERSON:
23 Q. So you were prepared to make up detail; correct?
24 A. No, that is not so.
25 Q. Something happened, Witness, between the 24th, when you were
1 still giving this account, and the 25th, when you started to say that the
2 men were taken alive to a building and then taken dead to the lake. What
3 changed your mind?
4 A. I already explained that. I will explain it again.
5 The first time with the -- when you meet with The Hague
6 Prosecutors, it's not easy.
7 Second, again, I will explain, since you have to know that, where
8 I was. So I don't want to talk about fear and that anymore because that
9 doesn't concern you. You're just concerned with your own job.
10 I told you what I wanted to say, and I said it nicely.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, Mr. Witness, the 25th, when you
12 changed your account in this respect, were you then at another place
13 compared to the 23rd and the 24th? Were you in another place at that
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, in another place.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Where were you at that moment?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we in private session?
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Where were you? I don't ask you for the town. I
20 ask you for the location. You told us the 23rd and the 24th, we were in
21 those offices. And now I'm asking you where were you on the 25th? In
22 which offices were you?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In an office which I would not like
24 to mention in public.
25 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I think it's better that we go into
1 private session if Your Honour is going to pursue this.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
4 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Yes, Mr. Emmerson.
16 MR. EMMERSON:
17 Q. Did you come to realize during the course of this process that
18 the Office of the Prosecutor was going to go and look for the bodies that
19 you'd said that you'd dumped at the lake?
20 A. Yes. I was even willing to go there with him. You can ask
21 Mr. Rogers that, if you want. Had I been able to, when he told me that I
22 would be under their protection, had I been able to, and I said, Whenever
23 it is necessary to go there, I'm willing to go with you to show you.
24 Q. Hmm. And it's a matter of record, and I'm sure you know this,
25 that no bodies were found.
1 A. I don't know that.
2 Q. The question I want to ask you is: How you knew, on the 23rd and
3 24th, as is says in Mr. Rogers' notes, You won't find the bodies.
4 How did you know that?
5 A. Sir, I will give you that answer as well. I can see you're
6 wanting to hear that.
7 How? Well, whoever is intelligent and knows that they will be
8 brought to trial, why would they leave it in the same place? Anybody
9 facing trial before The Hague Tribunal, why would they leave the bodies
10 there having been previously acquitted of the first time. So you tell
12 Q. The reason you knew there weren't going to be any bodies found is
13 because you never took any bodies to the lake, Witness, I suggest?
14 A. You are stating what you are stating, and I'm asserting before
15 this Court that I am able to go, together with them, and to tell them
16 where these places are. I am looking at the Trial Chamber, and I assert
17 with full responsibility that I am able to go there with them and to say
18 where this happened.
19 Q. You've already done that, Witness. You've done it twice, haven't
20 you? Once to the Serbs, and once to the Office of the Prosecutor.
21 You've given the locations, in detail, on satellite maps where you say
22 that the bodies were. Haven't you?
23 A. I'm sorry? What did I do?
24 Q. You've already, on two separate occasions, marked in detail, on
25 satellite maps and photographs, exactly where it was that you claim that
1 the bodies were left. Haven't you?
2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 Q. And you marked two completely different locations on each
4 occasion, didn't you?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: So we are clear with the question.
6 Two completely different occasions on the --
7 MR. EMMERSON: On each occasion the location said to have been
8 the place where the bodies were found was different.
9 Q. Correct?
10 A. Well, perhaps you can see everything in the statement. Perhaps
11 you did not read the whole statement. It's about two places. Listen to
12 me well: One place is where we were escorted on our way back. I'm
13 telling you clearly local -- the local soldier did not indicate that
15 So I explained that to you. I told you that nicely, but it seems
16 that you did not understand that properly.
17 Q. What I'm suggesting to you is that you named two different
18 locations as the place where you say that the bodies were left.
19 A. Well, I've just answered the question, sir. You're not
20 listening. You're just telling your own story.
21 I explained properly to Their Honours and to you. You were all
22 here when I said that. At one location, close to the lake, at the
23 entrance to it where the houses are -- perhaps I can rephrase it. You
24 will remember the sentence better. Close to the river, on the way back,
25 a local soldier told me that we threw them in there. I told that to you
1 very clearly. I don't know if I can be any clearer than that.
2 MR. EMMERSON: Can we call up 65 ter 03125, please.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just the first: What do you want to do, sir, with
4 0229 and 0248.
5 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not tendering that, the documents there, it's
6 read into the record.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
8 MR. EMMERSON:
9 Q. If we look on this map, can you see the -- I'm sorry, this
10 satellite photograph, can you see the red dotted line?
11 A. Yes, I see that.
12 Q. Now that was a map that was marked by a Prosecution investigator
13 on the 4th of July of this year, according to your instructions, to show
14 the route that you say that you took with these bodies; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And obviously we can see from the photograph that a large part of
17 the route that you say that you took crosses rough terrain. That's
18 right, is it?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Across the top of mountains?
21 A. As far as I know, no.
22 Q. Well, I think one can see, can one not, from the photograph
23 itself that the very first section is right across the crest of a
24 mountain, according to you?
25 A. Look, let me explain that as well.
1 I'm not really that versed in maps, so I said approximately. I
2 was very clear in saying that I would indicate it approximately. I would
3 indicate the route approximately.
4 Q. Well, it's right, isn't it, that your route took you across
5 fields and woodlands and that you didn't want to take the roads. Isn't
6 that what you said?
7 A. Well, in 1998, I don't know if it was possible to take the direct
8 route because of the Serbian police and so on. Of course, we didn't take
9 the -- the direct route.
10 Q. So you were carrying, you say this group of men were carrying
11 these bodies across rough terrain. You agree with that?
12 A. Sir, I think you mixed me up with that group when you said that.
13 We were escorted. We were not carrying it. So when you say "you
14 were carrying," we were not carrying it. We were the escort. I didn't
15 carry anything myself.
16 Q. You and the other men you're not prepared to name. You are
17 saying you were the escort?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. But it was a journey in which you told us, I think, 13 people
20 took part?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And it was a journey across rough terrain?
23 A. I told you that we did not take the main road. We took the
24 fields, some terrain that was a bit rocky. Then --
25 Q. [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, did you travel over mountains?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did cross a hill.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you about a hill. I'm not asking
4 you about the hill.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking you about a range of mountains.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what I'm trying to say.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You see, your answer should either be yes or no.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we did, of course. Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. And the mountains were rough. It was
11 rough terrain?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. There was no road.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, thank you. Thank you.
14 MR. EMMERSON:
15 Q. Just so that we have the picture, 13 men carrying three dead
16 bodies on stretchers across the mountains. If I tell you that the
17 distance that you've marked on that map is 10 kilometres, does that sound
18 about right to you?
19 A. Yes, that is correct, more or less, yes.
20 Q. And how long do you say this took?
21 A. I wasn't really timing anything. I wasn't there to time the
22 thing. I was just accompanying them.
23 Q. You gave us an estimate on Tuesday. You said it took about an
24 hour and a half or two hours; is that right or not?
25 A. Well, I've told you I didn't measure the time. I wasn't
1 measuring the time. I didn't have time to pay attention to time like you
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Can we call up, please, 65 ter 3119. I'm moving
5 to a different topic.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you're not tendering this one?
7 MR. EMMERSON: I'm tendering that one, Your Honour, yes.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is admitted. May it please be given an exhibit
9 number, under seal.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 03125 will be Exhibit D202, under
12 MR. EMMERSON: The next one is already exhibited. It's D201.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, did you say 202, or did you say
15 THE REGISTRAR: D202 under seal, Your Honours.
16 MR. EMMERSON: Can we please turn to paragraph 22.
17 Q. I'm just going to read these passages to you so that they're
18 there on the record and you have the full picture.
19 Paragraph 22, this is your witness statement again signed on the
20 8th of December.
21 "During the interview on the 24th of November, 2010, I stated
22 that I did not see any beating or mistreatment of prisoners on my second
23 visit to Jabllanice prison, and I also stated that I did not recall any
24 Serbian police officers or military officers being imprisoned in
1 "However, later on during that same day, I was asked by OTP
2 members if the name Nenad Remistar meant anything to me. I said it did
3 and stated that I had seen a policeman called Nenad who was kept prisoner
4 in the prisoner in Jabllanice together with two other Serb prisoners
6 Then you give a description.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Other Serb police officers.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Did I say -- misread, I'm sorry. I misspoke
9 myself, "Serb police officers."
10 You then give a description. And at paragraph 24 you say:
11 "I also stated that I witnessed Nenad being beaten by Maxhup with
12 a baseball bat during the interrogation."
13 So pausing there, this is your statement recording that, on the
14 24th of November, you told Mr. Rogers that you saw no ill-treatment or
15 beating on the second occasion, that you say that you went to Jabllanice,
16 and that you did not recall seeing any Serbian police officers or
17 military officers being imprisoned there, and you then later changed that
18 account and gave a description of an assault on a man called Nenad who
19 you say was a Serbian police officer; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Now, I'm just -- again, listen very carefully to my next question
22 because I don't want a long explanation from you at this point.
23 When you told Mr. Rogers that you did not see any Serbian police
24 officers or military officers being imprisoned in Jabllanice, did you
25 know that was not true?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. You then give an explanation at paragraphs 25 and 26 where you
4 "I'm being asked by the OTP members why I did mention this
5 earlier in the interview when I asked about my knowledge about any police
6 or military officers being detained at the prison in Jabllanice and
7 whether or not I saw prisoners being beaten or mistreated."
8 You say:
9 "The reason was that I was reluctant to mention the presence of
10 Serbian police and military prisoners in the prison in Jabllanice because
11 I was very embarrassed to mention this in the presence of the Serbian
12 officials who are also present here today."
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now this change in your account between saying you saw nothing
16 and no policemen to saying that you saw beating of a policeman on the
17 second occasion, that change in your account happened within one
18 interview from what you said at the beginning of the interview to what
19 you said at the end. Do you agree?
20 A. I agree.
21 Q. What changed, so far as you were concerned, then, that caused you
22 to change the account?
23 A. Because, at the time, while we were talking, this Serbian
24 officer, whom you mentioned, was already outside with the Prosecutor.
25 Then Mr. Rogers and I and the interpreter had a conversation alone that
1 lasted some two and a half hours.
2 Q. And are you suggesting then that something changed so far as the
3 Serbian police officer was concerned?
4 A. I explained that to you. It seems that you are not understanding
5 me again.
6 You asked me this. Let me rephrase your question. The reason
7 why I was not willing to mention the Serbian soldier. The reason was
8 that the Serbian policemen were next to me when I gave the statement, and
9 Serbian prosecutor.
10 Why did I change? After Mr. Rogers and the interpreter had a
11 conversation with me by ourselves, which we had, and when I said why I
12 did not wish to tell these things.
13 Q. Now, Witness, over the course of yesterday and today, you have
14 given us evidence about why you have changed your accounts, and you've
15 told us over and over again that it was because of your fear of the
16 Serbian police; correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Now, you first gave an account about Jabllanice, I suggest, after
19 a lengthy series of interviews that you had had about another case with
20 Serbian police officials; is that right?
21 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I don't know where Mr. Emmerson is
22 going with this line of questioning, but it might be prudent to go into
23 private session for it just so no information that reveals the identity
24 of the witness is disclosed.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Emmerson.
1 MR. EMMERSON: I -- at the moment I don't see why that should
2 happen, but it may be that we simply pursue this for the time being and
3 if there is a situation in which anything may reveal the identity of the
4 witness, then we can go into private session for that.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
6 MR. EMMERSON:
7 Q. You see, as I've understood the position, and correct me if I'm
8 wrong, the first time you ever claimed to have seen anything at
9 Jabllanice and gave an account of what you say took place at Jabllanice,
10 was in the course of the interview you gave to the Office of the
11 Prosecutor; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That, we know, took place from the 23rd of November, onwards. By
14 that time, you had been interviewed by Serb police and a Serb prosecutor
15 about another case, hadn't you?
16 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I would ask that we go into private
17 session. Already, I think that question, the way it was put can be
18 problematic, so I would, just for prudence, go into private session for
19 this part of the questioning.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I'm anxious that as much of this should be
21 on the public record as is appropriate. I obviously don't want anything
22 that may involve the identification of the witness in public session. So
23 I'm in Your Honours' hands, at the moment the question is one which has
24 been phrased in a way which does not elict any information that might
25 identify the witness, but I'm in Your Honours' hands.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let the witness answer the question and let's see
2 how it goes.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Perhaps I should repeat my question.
4 Q. By the time you were interviewed by officials from the Office of
5 the Prosecutor, you had been interviewed by a Serb police officer and a
6 prosecutor about another case, hadn't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You knew the Serb police officer very well, didn't you?
9 A. What do you mean by that, "knew him very well"?
10 Q. Knew her very well. By the time you met the Prosecutors in this
11 case, you had been interviewed more than 23 times, hadn't you, by the
12 same team about that other case?
13 A. In connection with some other case. This is of no concern of
14 yours. Are you trying to compromise me?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just -- just hold on, sir. The answer is yes or
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was interviewed on a number of
18 occasions, and it didn't have anything to do with this. I don't know
19 exactly how many times.
20 MR. EMMERSON:
21 Q. Well, if our records show that you were interviewed 23 times by
22 the same team, would you accept that that sounds accurate?
23 A. I think that's excessive, the number you've given. It's not true
24 that I met with them 23 times.
25 Q. Very well. If you think it's excessive, please give us your
1 estimate of the number of times that you met this police officer?
2 A. On this specific case?
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
4 A. Not -- on no occasion.
5 Q. On the other case.
6 MS. KRAVETZ: The witness has answered the question. He --
7 line -- first line of page 28 he says I don't know exactly how many
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: He is challenging the estimate by the lawyer.
10 He's asked to say if he thinks that is excessive, he must say what he
11 thinks the correct -- what is likely to be correct.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On a couple of occasions. I didn't
13 keep count.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: What would be a couple, sir. Can you give a
15 number to the word "couple"? In English parlance, "couple" means twice.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Seven or eight times.
17 MR. EMMERSON:
18 Q. I'm going to ask to go into private session just to name the
19 officers concerned so that the witness knows who it is we're speaking
20 about without any doubt at all.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
22 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 Yes, Mr. Emmerson.
24 MR. EMMERSON:
25 Q. Witness, you say seven or eight times the police officer has made
1 a statement in this case detailing the number of occasions on which you'd
2 met and on which you had been interviewed about that other case by the
3 police officer and the prosecutor. In total, I suggest again you had
4 been interviewed 23 times between June and September 2010, over a
5 three-month period?
6 A. I told you that I didn't keep count. I said several times. I
7 really don't know how many.
8 Q. See, you trust the police officer, don't you?
9 A. Well, when I was going through the roughest of periods, she was
10 there for me to help me, so I trust her.
11 Q. And when was that?
12 A. That was last year.
13 Q. Before you spoke to the Office of the Prosecutor.
14 A. Long, long before.
15 Q. Long, long before that, you'd built up this relationship of trust
16 with this Serbian police officer who was there for you in the hardest of
17 times; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So much so, in fact, that at a meeting in July of this year about
20 you coming to this court to give evidence, you told the Prosecutor that
21 you wanted both the prosecutor and the police officer to travel with you,
22 because they were the only people you trusted; right?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And yet the explanation that you've repeatedly given us over and
25 over and over again for the last two days for the changes in the accounts
1 that you've given to the Office of the Prosecutor over 23rd, 24th, 25th
2 and 26th of November was that you were afraid of the police, the Serb
3 police, and the Serb prosecutor; is that right?
4 A. They are not the entire Serbian police. They are individuals.
5 Serbia is big. They're not the whole Serbia. If I trust one person,
6 that doesn't necessarily apply to the entire Serbia.
7 Q. They were the ones who were with you during the interviews,
8 weren't they, Witness, that you say you were afraid of?
9 A. That is what I said, sir, that I was afraid. I didn't say I was
10 afraid of them. Don't put words in my mouth.
11 We had that interview, and then, after that, after that, where
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 2096-2097 redacted. Private session.
22 [Closed session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 We'll take a break and come back at quarter to.
8 Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
12 [Closed session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Emmerson.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, in the light of the matters that were
13 raised and resolved, as I understand it, in private session, I propose to
14 ask some questions that relate to the location of interviews in open
15 session unless anybody has any objection.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
17 MS. KRAVETZ: I don't mind if, in light of the discussion we've
18 already had, that the location is revealed, but if any names are
19 mentioned, I would ask that we do that in private session, and I'm sure
20 Mr. Emmerson intended to do that as well.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Ms. Kravetz.
22 MR. EMMERSON:
23 Q. Witness, during the course of this morning, I've asked you a
24 series of questions about the changes in your account that took place
25 between the 23rd and 26th of November. You have testified that the
1 reason for the changes was because, first of all, the location changed so
2 that your fear was different; and, secondly, that you had private
3 meetings with the Offices of the Prosecutor in the absence of the Serb
4 police officer and prosecutor. That's the evidence that you've given to
5 us this morning.
6 Those answers were not true, were they?
7 A. What do you mean, the answers were not true? Can you explain
9 Q. Yes. You were lying.
10 A. I was lying. It boils down again to the same thing. You are
11 really an impertinent, though educated, man, but you are brazen when you
12 say that I'm a liar.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, you see, we have asked Mr. Emmerson
14 not to use that word, but if when he uses a respectful word, you then ask
15 him what do you mean, what else do you expect him to say?
16 You know what it means to say you are not telling the truth.
17 Don't you understand that? [Microphone not activated].
18 I'm going to say it again because my Mike was off. Do you
19 understand the question: When you said this, you knew this was not true?
20 You don't need an explanation of that question, don't you?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in all due respect for
22 the Court and everyone, he has called me a liar on a number of occasions.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not talking about the number of occasions.
24 You see, listen to the question and answer the question that is put to
25 you. I'm talking to you about this time that he is now calling you
1 saying that you are lying.
2 He said first to you when you said that, Well, you told us what
3 you told us before the break, you knew that was not true. And you asked
4 him: What do you mean by that. Didn't you?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What question? I wasn't asking him
6 about that. I'm sorry, but perhaps he didn't understand me.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Anyway -- anyway, fine. I realize you are
8 deliberately making sure that you don't want to understand what I'm
9 talking about. Now I'm saying to you he justifiably called you a liar
10 this time around, okay?
11 MR. EMMERSON:
12 Q. Witness, let's be clear so that you understand exactly what I'm
13 asking you, you gave evidence this morning about the reasons for all the
14 changes in your account to the Prosecutor between the 23rd and the 26th
15 of November, 2011 [sic].
16 You remember giving those answers?
17 A. Yes, I do remember.
18 Q. And you told us that the reason why you were prepared to change
19 your account was because you were no longer as afraid in the later
20 interviews as you had been in the earlier interviews, didn't you?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. And you explained that the location of the interviews was
23 important to you and that the location had changed, didn't you?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. And you even told us about an occasion in some detail when you
1 were on your own with the Prosecutor, Mr. Rogers, and he gave you lots of
2 reassurance about how it was okay for you to tell the whole truth, didn't
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. I'm going to read to you now an official agreed statement of fact
6 which comes from the prosecutors who were there during those interviews,
8 "The interview with Witness 81 between the 23rd and the 26th of
9 November, 2010 was conducted at the Serbian gendarmerie building in
10 Belgrade. At no point during the interview that was conducted between
11 the 23rd and the 26th of November, 2010 were Prosecution officials in the
12 presence of the witness without either the female police officer or the
13 male prosecutor present."
14 Now why, please, did you tell us this morning that the location
15 of the buildings had changed and you'd had private conversations with the
17 A. When I said that the place changed, I said quite clearly that it
18 was a different place. And when I say that I and Mr. Rogers had this
19 conversation in the presence of an interpreter, then that's what I mean.
20 You can bring Mr. Rogers here, and I will look you in the eye and tell
21 you how it happened.
22 So I stand but what I said.
23 Q. I don't need to bring Mr. Rogers here because he's already made
24 this formal statement that what you've told us is a lie, is not the
1 A. Well, you're calling me that again.
2 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
3 A. Well, you have the right to do that. But why wouldn't you bring
4 him here so that I -- we could see eye to eye and I can tell him ...
5 What right do I have? It seems I have no rights whatsoever here.
6 Q. The reality, Witness 81, is that these were untruths that you
7 made up in the course of your evidence in an attempt to explain
8 inexplicable changes in your account?
9 A. That's not true, Mr. Lawyer. What you're saying is not true.
10 And I don't know why you are treating me this way, like I'm a criminal,
11 though you did call me one already. I've only come here to disclose one
12 truth, and it is not in your interest that I do that. And you are not
13 concerned at all about the fact that I will have to go back (redacted)
15 But, again, you are not interested in that because it is not your
16 head, your body, or your family that is at stake. It is mine. Well, I
17 will give all credit to you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
19 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
7 Yes, Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.
8 MR. EMMERSON:
9 Q. I'm going to give you one last chance to review and correct your
10 evidence on this issue.
11 You have told us that the reason why your accounts have changed
12 is because initially you were afraid of the Serbian officials who were
13 present but later when you spoke in private with Mr. Rogers, he reassured
14 you and you felt able to tell the truth whole.
15 That account, I suggest, is not true, and I'm going to give you
16 one last opportunity to tell the truth.
17 A. I am claiming, yet again, that that is the truth and the whole
18 truth. I had that conversation with Mr. Rogers, and if I can quote his
19 words when we signed a paper that we had to sign, he said: "From this
20 point on, you are under our protection and nobody, and when say I
21 'nobody,' I mean nobody can lay their finger on you."
22 Q. So now let us look about -- at your explanation of fear of
23 telling the truth in front of the Serbian officials.
24 You told us before the break that before you met Mr. Rogers, long
25 before, you had a relationship of close trust with the female police
1 officer. That's right, isn't it?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. In relation to the other case that you were interviewed about on
4 many occasions in her presence, it's right, isn't it, that it was you
5 yourself who first approached the Serbian police to give an account?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Were you afraid then of the Serbian police when you made the
8 decision to approach them yourself?
9 A. Yes. The same, just as it is now. Of course, I was afraid.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Can we go into private session, please,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 2107-2120 redacted. Private session.
17 [Closed session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Take a break and come back when we are called.
1 Court adjourned.
2 --- Break taken at 11.36 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.57 a.m.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber has been informed that the witness is
5 not in a position to continue for the rest of the day, so it looks like
6 we are going to have to adjourn at this point to tomorrow.
7 Court adjourned.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.58 a.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Friday, the 25th day of
10 November, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.