1 Tuesday, 4 April 2000
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 --- Upon commencing at 4.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The Appeals Chamber is
6 now in session.
7 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
10 Honour. This is case IT-95-10-A, the Prosecutor versus
11 Goran Jelisic.
12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Jelisic, you are
13 present in court, and can you hear me?
14 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] [No audible
16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Then shall
17 we take the appearances for the Prosecution.
18 MR. YAPA: May it please Your Honours. I'm
19 Upawansa Yapa, appearing for the Prosecutor, with
20 Mr. Christopher Staker.
21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: For Mr. Jelisic.
22 MR. GREAVES: May it please Your Honour. My
23 name is Michael Greaves. I am co-counsel on behalf of
24 Goran Jelisic. He is also represented by leading
25 counsel, Mr. Veselin Londrovic.
1 Your Honour, I have one question which I
2 would like to raise before I sit down, and it is this:
3 As Your Honours will know, my leading counsel does not
4 speak either of the official languages of the Tribunal
5 and has been assigned on that basis. He and I do not
6 have a common language. Throughout the proceedings
7 before the Trial Chamber, the learned Judges of the
8 Trial Chamber allowed us to have present, sitting with
9 us at counsel's bench, an interpreter, Mrs. Meliha
10 Zivkovic. Could I ask Your Honours that you extend the
11 same courtesy to us on this occasion and on future
12 occasions when we have to appear before you? Otherwise
13 it makes it very difficult for my leading counsel and I
14 to communicate together about important matters.
15 [Appeals Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Motion granted.
17 MR. GREAVES: I'm most grateful to Your
18 Honour. May she come into court. She's sitting in the
19 public gallery.
20 [The interpreter entered court]
21 MR. GREAVES: I formally introduce to Your
22 Honours Mrs. Meliha Zivkovic.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Good afternoon, Your
25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You're fully organised
1 now, Mr. Greaves?
2 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, yes.
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Then I would refer to
4 the Scheduling Order recently made, which appointed
5 today as the day on which we would be holding this
6 Status Conference.
7 This Status Conference, as you know, is being
8 held pursuant to Rule 65 bis of the Rules of Procedure
9 and Evidence of this Tribunal. The Rule was adopted at
10 the Twenty-First Plenary last November and it came into
11 force on the 7th of December, 1999.
12 The text, in relevant part, reads: "The
13 Appeals Chamber ... shall convene a status conference,
14 within one hundred and twenty days of the filing of a
15 notice of appeal and thereafter within one hundred and
16 twenty days after the last status conference, to allow
17 any person in custody pending appeal the opportunity to
18 raise issues in relation thereto, including the mental
19 and physical condition of that person."
20 So the purposes of this meeting are, broadly
21 speaking, twofold: one, to afford an opportunity to
22 Mr. Jelisic, speaking either directly or through his
23 counsel, to make any representations concerning his
24 appeal, the conditions of detention, et cetera; and
25 secondly, to update him on the situation as regards his
2 Now, then, Mr. Greaves, would you like to
3 take the floor? Is there anything in particular that
4 you would like to say to us?
5 MR. GREAVES: Yes. There's one matter that
6 we would like to raise, which is causing us some
7 difficulties, and it's this:
8 As Your Honours will know, the whole of the
9 trial record was certified as being relevant for the
10 purposes of the appeal by the Registry. We have made a
11 request to the Registry for the copies of the
12 videotapes of the proceedings before the Trial
13 Chamber. The Registry has agreed that we can have
14 those items but has said that it's going to take about
15 six months to produce them.
16 I understand from the Registry that it
17 involves something like 70 individual videotapes of the
18 proceedings. I'm somewhat surprised that it's going to
19 take six months to carry out the copying exercise of 70
20 videos. One knows only too well that in the commercial
21 world such things are done in an extremely quick amount
22 of time. I appreciate that there are rather more
23 restricted facilities available here, but I'm still
24 somewhat surprised that it's going to take that long.
25 The point is this, and I referred to this
1 earlier on: The transcripts are produced in the two
2 official languages of the Tribunal, English and
3 French. I have access to both of those; I have both
4 sets on both CD-ROM and in hard copy. The transcript
5 is not produced in the languages of the former
6 Yugoslavia, and so the only document or item that my
7 learned leading counsel can use effectively as a
8 transcript is the videotape recording of the
9 proceedings. That's the only access he has in his
10 language to what took place. Of course he's got his
11 notes and of course he's got some assessment from me of
12 what is in a particular passage in the transcript, but
13 it very much hampers his work as leading counsel not to
14 have a transcript.
15 The alternative is to have the tape so that
16 he can go back, following his notes, to use the tapes
17 to assist him in his preparation of matters that are
18 going to be part of the grounds of appeal in this
20 What I'm asking Your Honours to do is to
21 encourage the Registry to speed up the process of
22 producing copies of the tapes of the proceedings, and
23 if I could ask Your Honour to use, as it were, your
24 good offices to pass on that encouragement and
25 persuade, perhaps, the Registry to come up with a
1 different time scheme for producing copies of the
2 tapes, then we would be most grateful.
3 If we've got that as soon as possible, then
4 that avoids any risk of further motions for extensions
5 of time that might be consequent upon any delay in
6 receiving those items.
7 [Appeals Chamber confers with legal
9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Perhaps the Bench better
10 hear from the Prosecution and then from the registrar.
11 Mr. Prosecutor, do you wish to make a
13 MR. YAPA: It is a short comment that I would
14 like to make, Your Honours.
15 We were not aware of this problem or the
16 request that had been made to the Registrar, and it
17 deals with a technical problem that has been mentioned
18 by the Registrar, about the time that they will take to
19 prepare the tapes.
20 There is one matter which we are -- we do not
21 know what the technical side of it is. There may be
22 instances when some of the witnesses who testify, the
23 protected witnesses, I do not know whether providing
24 the tapes will have a bearing on the position of such
1 That is the submission that I wish to make,
2 but, of course, it's a matter entirely in the
3 discretion of Your Honours' court as to the order that
4 Your Honours will make to the Registrar. I thank you.
5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. I appreciate that,
6 Mr. Yapa. Now, we will hear from the --
7 Mr. Greaves.
8 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm
9 not entirely clear what the problem over witnesses is.
10 Both my learned friend and I, and indeed Mrs. Zivkovic,
11 were present throughout the trial. We heard all the
12 witnesses and, indeed, are entitled to hear what they
13 said for the purposes of appeal. So I'm not entirely
14 sure what the problem that my friend is raising is. Is
15 he saying that the Registry shouldn't hear what was
16 said or the technical people shouldn't hear what was
17 said? I think we should be clear on exactly what the
18 problem that is being raised is.
19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Yapa, would you
20 clarify that.
21 MR. YAPA: Yes, Your Honour. My concern was
22 this: We have had previous instances when tapes were
23 made available to Defence counsel, that is, in
24 Celebici, certain tapes were made available. But there
25 was an order made that the tapes not be taken off the
1 Tribunal's premises because of the orders made with
2 respect to protective witnesses. The tapes would be
3 going out of the Tribunal, out of the premises, so that
4 was the concern that I had.
5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You mean the chain of
6 custody would have been broken?
7 MR. YAPA: It would be. It would be, Your
8 Honour. It is part of the record of the Registry.
9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Is that within your
10 contemplation, Mr. Greaves?
11 MR. GREAVES: Well, if the Registry wants to
12 pay for both my learned friend and I to be here for an
13 extended period of time, sitting in the Defence room
14 watching videotapes, then of course that would be
15 perfectly okay, but it's going to cost an awful lot of
16 money if we have to be here in order to look at the
17 tapes. That's the first point.
18 The second point is that the appellant
19 himself is entitled to have copies of his own trial,
20 and he of course is not going to be allowed sitting in
21 this building, rather than the UN Detention Centre.
22 He, of course, has also heard the same things that
23 we've heard.
24 The second [sic] thing is this: The things
25 which can be found on the tapes can also be found on
1 transcripts, and of course transcripts are frequently
2 taken back to the former Yugoslavia by Defence counsel,
3 and realistically Defence counsel can't be expected to
4 work under those circumstances.
5 I have some knowledge of what happened in the
6 Celebici case because, of course, I was involved in
7 that case as well, and so I followed what has happened
8 in the appeal. I don't know what the rationale behind
9 the decision to order they don't go out of the building
10 was. I understand that tapes were procured in that
11 case for one particular purpose involving an allegation
12 about one of the Trial Judges, and it may be that it
13 was felt right that that, for the time being, should be
14 a matter that was kept within the building. I haven't
15 heard that the reason why the tapes were not allowed
16 out of the building was to do with protected
18 But in my respectful submission, it's wholly
19 unrealistic to expect leading counsel to live in The
20 Hague in order to watch videos, to prepare the
21 defence -- the appellant brief. That, I think, is
22 hopelessly unrealistic, in my submission.
23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Greaves, this is all
24 under the assumption that the Registry will not be in a
25 position initially to give you a copy of the tapes. Is
1 that it?
2 MR. GREAVES: Yes. The letter that was
3 written to us said it would take approximately six
5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Six months. Well,
6 perhaps we better hear from the Registry.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
8 I will try to be as exhaustive as possible on this
9 particular issue.
10 The first thing I would like to say
11 concerning the Celebici videotapes, this was a very
12 special request that was made in a very particular area
13 of the trial, and the access to the videotapes -- it
14 was an edited version of the videotape, it was not what
15 we can see right now on our screens. It was a
16 videotape of pictures taken by camera 3, the camera
17 which only films the Judges, and indeed the request was
18 formulated regarding one particular Judge. The
19 videotapes of this camera number 3 are highly
20 confidential material, which is under no circumstances
21 allowed to leave the Tribunal, which is the reason why
22 these videotapes can only be seen within the premises
23 of the Tribunal. So that closes the issue on the
24 Celebici videotapes.
25 As for other videotapes, we have no problems,
1 as far as communicating trial videotapes are concerned,
2 even if there are some confidential matters raised
3 during the trial. We resort to the code of ethics of
4 the lawyers and we always -- we are always ready to
5 communicate videotapes to the counsel who are part of
6 the trial. But indeed it takes us a lot of time
7 because this request has been formulated not only
8 within this particular case but also for a number of
9 cases and for a great number of accused.
10 So we have envisaged another solution, which
11 would be much quicker, much more efficient, I suppose,
12 and which would maybe calm the fears of the Prosecution
13 as far as protecting protected witnesses is concerned,
14 and that would be to communicate an audiotape, a B/C/S
15 audiotape, to the Defence. It would be much quicker.
16 And I don't know if the Defence agrees to this
17 proposal, but if it does, maybe this would be the ideal
19 [Appeals Chamber confers with legal
21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, Mr. Greaves, you
22 have heard what the registrar has had to say.
23 Apparently we need not burden ourselves with the
24 special problems that arose in Celebici. We've heard a
25 reference to camera number 3. I believe with some
1 ingenuity I shall manage to locate it, if I tried, but
2 I am not confident.
3 As for the rest, the registrar has suggested
4 ways and means by which an attempt could be made to
5 expedite the provisioning of the required material to
6 you. Would that be satisfactory to you, if the
7 registrar were to do his best? We certainly would
8 encourage him.
9 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, could I have just
10 a moment, without any discourtesy, to confer with my
11 leading counsel please.
12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, of course.
13 MR. GREAVES: I'm grateful.
14 [Defence counsel confer]
15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, Mr. Greaves do
16 forgive me for averting my attention away from you.
17 MR. GREAVES: Not at all. I was taught that
18 one waited for the Judge, the Judge did not wait for
20 Your Honour, the position is this: With a
21 reservation which I would like to explain, we would be
22 prepared to accept that proposition which has been made
23 by the Registry. We would want to reserve the right to
24 ask for particular sections of the trial to be made
25 available to us on videotape. I'm sorry. I'm told
1 there's no translation in B/C/S at the moment. It's
2 now present. I'll repeat what I've said.
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Has it been corrected
5 MR. GREAVES: We would like to reserve the
6 right to make a request to the Registry for particular
7 periods of the trial, which are matters which we need
8 to look at to see what they look like in terms of how
9 the trial was conducted, reserve the right to request
10 specific parts, but obviously limited parts of the
11 trial on videotape as opposed to on audiotape.
12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Registrar, would
13 that present any particular difficulties to you?
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Not at all,
15 Your Honour. But I would like to call everyone's
16 attention on two issues. First of all, these
17 audiotapes are never redacted, so we have to take very
18 specific measures when we deal with audiotapes, so I
19 warn the parties about this. And as for the
20 videotapes, I also ask of the Defence counsel that they
21 be patient when they turn to us to ask for those types
22 of tapes.
23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Greaves, I take it
24 that you're agreeable to those two reservations.
25 MR. GREAVES: I hope Mr. Dubuisson knows me
1 well enough to know that I'm a reasonably patient
2 individual, and that he can have confidence in that.
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Very good. So I take it
4 that concludes your representations today.
5 MR. GREAVES: That is the only matter that I
6 wanted to raise today. Of course, Your Honour can
7 invite the defendant -- the appellant, I'm sorry, as to
8 whether he has any things he wants to raise. But those
9 are the only things I want to raise today.
10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: So I turn to the
11 appellant himself.
12 Mr. Jelisic, you have heard what your counsel
13 has said.
14 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. He wisely wishes
17 to let you have an opportunity to speak directly to the
18 court. Do you have any particular representation to
20 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] I will be
21 very short, Your Honours. There are absolutely no
22 problems in the detention unit. The conditions are
23 very good and the guards are very correct. And as far
24 as I'm concerned, my days are reduced to sorrow,
25 remorse, and a sense of guilt. That is all I have to
1 say. And shame.
2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: The Court has listened
3 to you with care and understanding, and what we shall
4 try to do is move the proceedings forward as fast as we
5 could to assist you to compensate for the situation in
6 which you find yourself. What we can do, we shall try
7 to do.
8 You may sit, Mr. Jelisic.
9 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] If possible,
10 I would just like to add one more thing.
11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I was under the
12 misapprehension that you had concluded your statement.
13 There is something that you would like to add. Please
15 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] I just wanted
16 to add that the administration has provided me with the
17 medical aid. I also am working in the laundry room.
18 So I am very active throughout the day. And I thank
19 you for your concern.
20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. You may now
21 sit, Mr. Jelisic.
22 [the Appellant sits down]
23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: That is, I'm assuming
24 you have now concluded whatever it is you wish to say;
25 is that right?
1 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] Yes, that is
2 right, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Well, then, it remains
4 for me just to mark the position at which we have
5 arrived. As I understand it, the briefs of the parties
6 are to be filed by the 15th of May, this year;
7 thereafter, respondent's briefs are to be filed by the
8 14th of June; and thereafter any briefs in reply are to
9 be filed by the 29th of June.
10 Now, we have heard an allusion to the
11 possibility of certain requests being made, and I'm not
12 in a position, naturally, to say whether those requests
13 will be made, but assuming that no requests are made,
14 we shall be in a position to hear this case in
15 September or shortly thereafter.
16 So that is the position of the Appeals
17 Chamber for the moment. We are in the hands of the
18 parties, but we are ready, willing, and able to go,
19 subject to any requests that you may have on either
20 side, whether by way of extension of time or for some
21 other purpose.
22 Now, perhaps I should add this, just to put
23 it on the record: that as you know, Judge Wang Tieya
24 was an original member of the Appeals Chamber, but he
25 was replaced on 22nd March this year by Judge Pocar,
1 who is on my distant left. So that is the composition
2 of the Chamber as amended on that date, by order of the
3 President of the Tribunal.
4 [Appeals Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, Mr. Greaves.
6 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry to rise again and
7 raise something. I wonder whether it would be
8 possible, really for the assistance of counsel on
9 forward-planning, to identify a provisional date, and I
10 say "provisional," for the next Status Conference that
11 has to be held under Rule 65 bis.
12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes.
13 MR. GREAVES: That enables one to plan
14 carefully when one has to be back in The Hague.
15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I understand you to be
16 meaning this: that under the Rule, there is a maximum
17 time period of 120 days, but obviously it could be
18 shorter than that. Is that what you were asking?
19 MR. GREAVES: Yes, and so if we could
20 identify a provisional date, perhaps, that we're
21 working to so that one can plan any other matters that
22 one is looking after.
23 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let me take counsel with
24 my colleagues and speak with the secretariat.
25 [Appeals Chamber confers]
1 [Appeals Chambers confers with legal
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Mr. Greaves,
4 that's a very reasonable request. I'm advised that
5 mathematically the outside limit is the 4th of August.
6 What I see on the calendar served up to me by the
7 registrar is that we have, provisionally anyhow, a
8 Plenary meeting slated for the second week of July. I
9 think the last pleading would have been filed on the
10 29th of June.
11 What that configuration suggests is that we
12 might be holding a Status Conference -- I would like to
13 amend what I said. The Plenary is slated to be in the
14 first week of July; is that right, Mr. Registrar?
15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] That's quite
16 right, Your Honour. The first week of July is supposed
17 to see the holding of the Plenary session. So the
18 second week is free, in the afternoon.
19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Exactly.
20 So Mr. Greaves, we would make a Scheduling
21 Order fixing the Status Conference for the second week
22 of July. I have spoken of issuing a Scheduling Order,
23 fixing it for some time during that week, for the
24 obvious reason that we are not now in a position to be
25 very definitive about any particular day. You do
1 appreciate, I'm sure, that we have a number of
2 considerations to take into account concerning the
3 disposition of particular members of the Appeals
4 Chamber. But provisionally we are thinking of that
5 week as the week in which this Status Conference should
6 have held.
7 MR. GREAVES: I'm very grateful to Your
8 Honour. That is most helpful.
9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes. Thank you.
10 Well, then, if there are no other matters to
11 be raised, I would now bring the proceedings to an end,
12 merely saying that I think it's perfectly reasonable
13 and I hope that the parties find also that it is a
14 useful purpose in holding meetings of this kind. It is
15 not good enough to allow an appellant to languish in
16 the detention centre without being afforded an
17 opportunity, as it were, to touch base with the Judges
18 in the case.
19 Thank you. Then the court stands adjourned.
20 --- Whereupon the Status Conference
21 adjourned at 4.55 p.m.