1Wednesday, 1st September, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.13 p.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be
6 Mr. Registrar, have the accused brought in.
7 [The accused entered court]
8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Can the
9 interpreters hear me? Very well. Can Defence counsel
10 hear? Can Prosecution counsel hear?
11 The accused, Mr. Jelisic, would you please
12 rise and tell us how you feel?
13 THE ACCUSED JELISIC: [Interpretation] My
14 health condition has not really improved, but we
15 decided not to disrupt the court proceedings, and out
16 of respect for you, Your Honours, and the witnesses who
17 suffered a lot in Brcko and have travelled all the way
18 over here.
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. If
20 you have any problems at all -- please be seated. If
21 you have any problems, do not hesitate to ask for the
22 floor, and we'll find a solution. I was asked, and I
23 agreed, that there be a nurse nearby, if necessary.
24 I think that we can now resume our trial and
25 perhaps ask the Prosecutor to bring in the next
2 I think this is a public hearing, at least
3 that's what the registrar told me, that we would be in
4 public hearing. Is that correct? Yes, that is.
5 Mr. Nice, would you tell us who the next
6 witness is? I believe he had already come in and
7 already taken an oath. That is Witness G.
8 MR. NICE: Indeed it is, and because it's a
9 protected witness, the screens must come down, but only
10 briefly while he comes in.
11 I'm happy to tell Your Honour that the five
12 witnesses whose summaries were provided yesterday are
13 not the subject of any contest so far as the Defence is
14 concerned. They are content for them to be called.
15 They won't take very long, as you'll see from the
16 summaries, and I'll make arrangements for their travel
18 I'm further happy to tell Your Honour that
19 Mr. Greaves has been extremely helpful this morning in
20 agreeing that certain parts of the statement summary of
21 Witness G may indeed be simply presented to him in
22 a led form, and I'm grateful to him for that, and that
23 will save some time.
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We agree to
25 that in order to save as much time as possible, thanks
1to you, but we are imposing nothing on the Defence.
2 The Defence will conduct the cross-examination as it
3 sees fit. I encourage the Defence to try to save as
4 much time as possible, but I can only encourage him to
5 do so. However, I am asking you, insofar as possible,
6 Mr. Prosecutor, if you consider it desirable, to use
7 your summaries which were given to the Judges.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, we
10 have a question that we're concerned with. We would
11 like to ask it before the witness comes in.
12 As regards the summary of Witness G's
13 statement, are you going to ask for it as an admission
14 as an exhibit or are you not?
15 MR. NICE: It had not originally been my
16 intention to ask for them to be exhibited. They were,
17 as I think I characterised them, a tool to help the
18 Tribunal know what evidence could be given and so on.
19 Yesterday, Your Honour decided that an
20 appropriate way forward would be for the witness to
21 acknowledge the summary as effectively a document of
22 his and to sign it and for it then to be produced.
23 That could only be done if the witness, being literate,
24 had read a version himself in a language he
25 understands, alternatively has had read to him by an
1interpreter a version in a language he does not
3 With this witness, I understand that he has
4 this morning gone through the B/C/S version and is,
5 indeed, in a position, if this is what the Court would
6 find appropriate, is in a position to sign it, and it
7 can then become an exhibit. With a later witness, who
8 is either not literate or less literate, he would only
9 be able to acknowledge a version as having been
10 something he believes to have been read over to him by
11 an interpreter. But on that basis, he could sign it as
13 So I'm quite happy to do that, but
14 notwithstanding the witness's signing of it, I shall be
15 taking him through some of the important parts that I
16 understand to be in dispute with the Defence. But I
17 shall, of course, be able to do things so much more
18 quickly with the aid of this tool.
19 I hope that's acceptable.
20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you have any
21 problems with that, Mr. Greaves?
22 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, no, strictly
23 speaking, a summary is not evidence. But if the
24 witness acknowledges it, then of course that becomes
25 part of the evidence.
1JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. We
2 can have Witness G brought into the courtroom now.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear me,
5 Witness G?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 Please be seated, Witness G. I believe you have
9 already taken the oath. You can now be seated. Thank
10 you for being patient.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I'm sure all of
13 the problems that occurred yesterday have been
14 explained to you which were the cause of the
15 postponement of your testimony, but I think that now
16 there are no further problems.
17 Mr. Prosecutor must have spoken to you about
18 the summary of the various statements you made. It
19 will be very important for you to indicate whether you
20 recognise this or acknowledge this summary as being
21 valid as expressing your statements, because if
22 necessary, we're going to use it as an exhibit. But we
23 will let the Prosecutor do his work.
24 Mr. Nice, please proceed.
25 WITNESS: G (Resumed)
1Examined by Mr. Nice:
2 [Witness answers through interpreter]
3 Q. Would you look at this piece of paper that's
4 being shown --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,
7 MR. NICE:
8 Q. My apologies. Will you look, please, at this
9 piece of paper that's being shown to you, and say
10 nothing except "Yes" or "No" in answer to the
11 question. Is that your name?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. NICE: If the usher would be so good as
14 to just show this document to the witness, please.
15 Just hand it to the witness, please.
16 Q. Witness G, is this a document that was shown
17 to you last night and that you were able to read?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it accurate?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you please just put your name -- you
22 will be given a pen; perhaps you could just put your
23 name at the end of it.
24 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the problem is it's
25 Witness G for this Court. I think, if he produces the
1document and acknowledges its accuracy on our
2 transcript, that makes the connection between the
3 document, its accuracy, and the witness, and avoids any
4 name having to be given which would then have to be
5 withdrawn or withheld. Copies available for the Court
6 in B/C/S.
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you,
8 Mr. Nice. You said exactly what I was going to say.
9 The connection between the witness and his own
10 acknowledgement of the document must be indicated, and
11 once that's indicated in the transcript, I think that
12 will be enough.
13 MR. NICE: The Court already has copies of
14 this document in English and French, and I'll be
15 grateful at some stage for the exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Prosecution
17 Exhibit 15, 15A for the French version and 15B for the
18 B/C/S version.
19 MR. NICE:
20 Q. Witness G, I'm going to ask you to deal with
21 the following question simply by telling me if what I
22 propose is correct. Resident in Brcko when the bridges
23 were blown on the 30th of April of 1992, did your
24 family stay with relations in Moaca while you stayed at
25 your home in Kolobara, a Muslim area, where you helped
1to organise patrols to protect homes; over the next few
2 days, was there an escalation in military activity with
3 trucks carrying military personnel seen arriving in
4 Brcko sporting artillery and could -- I beg your
5 pardon -- with artillery and small-arms fire being
6 heard coming from neighbouring hamlets? Is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On the 4th of May, were you, with others,
10 hiding in the basement of a neighbour's house when you
11 were expelled by Serb military forces and marched to
12 the town mosque; on departure from the area of your
13 house, did you see that it, along with other houses,
14 was on fire?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you detained at the mosque for two days,
17 while there, women and children were being separated
18 from men of military age, and they were taken away in
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. While at the mosque, paragraph 5, was there a
22 man called or known as Papa who you saw dealt with in a
23 particular way? And it's not necessary -- you can
24 look at the -- with the Court's leave, you can look at
25 the summary, but I would be quite happy if you can deal
1with this from your own memory, unless you have any
3 Was there a man known as Papa, and what
4 happened to him? In just a sentence.
5 A. Yes, there was. He was taken out into the
6 hallway. He was beaten, and later he was taken across
7 over there to the hospital, and then he was led away.
8 That's it.
9 Q. On the 6th of May, what happened to you?
10 A. On the 6th of May, we were transferred from
11 the mosque, in trucks, to the barracks.
12 Q. When there, was there a person you got to
13 know and recognise wearing a uniform?
14 A. While we were standing in front of the
15 building where we were kept, I noticed a person in a
16 blue uniform with a bandaged hand talking to a group of
17 prisoners. I approached in order to hear what was
18 being said, and then I heard this man say, "70 per cent
19 of you should be killed, 30 per cent should be dealt
20 with and beaten up," and then, out of those numbers,
21 maybe about 3 per cent were all right. And then he
22 said, "All of you are going to come to me," and cursed
23 our balija mothers. I did not know this person at the
24 time. Only when I arrived in Luka did I recognise him.
25 Q. When did you arrive in Luka?
1A. I arrived in Luka on the 8th of May, in the
3 Q. When you arrived there, where did you first
5 A. We waited by the first hangar, to the left of
6 the hangar and facing it.
7 MR. NICE: Can the witness look at this
8 document, please, which, although it's similar to an
9 earlier exhibit, it may perhaps serve a useful
10 purpose. It's a little clearer, I think, and will, I
11 think, become Exhibit 16.
12 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution
13 Exhibit 16.
14 MR. NICE:
15 Q. Witness G, if you wish to point something out
16 on the photograph, the usher will hand you a pointer.
17 Stay in your seat, in order to preserve your facial
18 anonymity, and use the pointer in your hand to indicate
20 MR. NICE: I think that you're straining the
21 machine a little; we've lost our picture.
22 Thank you very much.
23 There's a mistake there, I think, in
24 the -- thank you. Something's seriously wrong. Can
25 the video be turned off, please?
1I don't know what's gone wrong, Your Honour,
2 if Your Honour is looking at the video.
3 THE REGISTRAR: There's a technical problem.
4 The video booth has just told me there's a problem.
5 MR. NICE: Again, Your Honour, the wrong
6 image entirely is coming up on the screen. Yes, can
7 you press "Video Evidence"? I'm sure the Chamber has.
8 You see the problem.
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] For the public
10 gallery, what's happening?
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to
13 have the public taken out of the public gallery, unless
14 the problem has been solved, because we saw the hangar
15 on the video, we saw the photograph. Can that be
17 MR. NICE: While the technical matter is
18 being addressed, of course, I can take or the Tribunal
19 can take appropriate steps in relation to the delayed
20 video. That's not a problem.
21 As to the incorrect transmission of current
22 images, it may be that the Chamber would -- would Your
23 Honour just give me one minute? I'm so sorry.
24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The registrar
25 can assure you, Witness G, that your image was not
1projected into the public gallery. Perhaps we should
2 have all of the face image distorted. Do you
3 understand what I've just said? You can be assured
4 that we're not going to have to take any other special
5 measures in respect of what was on the monitor, because
6 the public gallery didn't see it.
7 Perhaps we could then raise the blinds so
8 this be a public session, but be sure that we do not
9 show the witness's face.
10 After this problem, the witness may wonder
11 whether he's not being pursued by bad luck.
12 THE REGISTRAR: There is a problem which is
13 continuing. We cannot have the camera on Witness G.
14 There's a problem with his face. We can continue to
15 question the witness, but the camera will focus only on
16 the ELMO.
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Does everybody
18 agree, my colleagues agree, agree that we proceed that
19 way? Very well.
20 Mr. Nice, after having reassured our witness,
21 we can now continue the hearing in public session,
22 since his image is completely distorted.
23 All right, Mr. Nice, please proceed.
24 MR. NICE:
25 Q. Looking at this exhibit and using the
1pointer, can you show us where it was you first waited
2 on arrival at the Luka camp?
3 A. I do not know whether I shall be able to show
4 you exactly where I stood on that occasion on this
5 photograph, because I don't see the end of these
6 hangars. We were standing to the left from the first
8 MR. NICE: May he see Exhibit 10 instead.
9 Q. Can you point on this photograph to where it
10 was that you first stood and waited?
11 A. Yes [indicating].
12 Q. How many people, approximately, were waiting
13 there at the time of your arrival?
14 A. There were seven of us in a group. Across
15 from us, if I may put it that way, that is, on the
16 other side of the entrance, there were about 30 people
17 or so.
18 Q. While waiting there, did you see the man who
19 had spoken to you at the barracks, the man in the blue
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Where was he when you first saw him? What
23 was he doing?
24 A. When I saw him first, he was standing by that
25 room into which detainees were being taken. So when I
1saw him first, he was entering that room. After that,
2 he took out a detainee and quietly took him to the
3 right or, rather, towards the corner of the building,
4 further away from the door. He was followed by another
5 individual in a uniform and armed too, and they turned
6 the corner of the building.
7 From there, I heard shots, and after that,
8 that individual in a blue uniform, and subsequently
9 when he comes close to us, I will see him properly and
10 learn that his name is Goran. Then he went back into
11 the room that he had come out.
12 After that, he took out another witness and
13 took him --
14 MR. NICE: Can the witness have Exhibit 16
15 back on the ELMO, the other photograph. Thank you.
16 That is a closer view of the same.
17 Q. Can we see in this photograph, although the
18 photograph was taken years later, can we see in this
19 photograph the doorway to which and from which the man
20 in the blue uniform went?
21 A. Yes, even though this office seems to be
22 demolished by now, but this corner that I meant was
23 here [indicating], it is this part, and the door is up
24 there [indicating]. There, here, [indicating] the door
25 leading into those offices.
1Q. So let us return to your account of the
2 second person you saw leaving that office with the man
3 you discovered was called Goran. What did the man
4 Goran do?
5 A. He was taking this prisoner in front of him,
6 and he also took him around the corner, behind the
7 corner of the building.
8 Q. After they disappeared around the corner,
9 what happened? What, if anything, did you hear?
10 A. Shots were heard from that direction, and
11 after that, Goran returned alone to the same building
12 that he had come out.
13 Q. Did you see a third detainee leave that
15 A. The third detainee was pushed out of that
16 office. I believe his face was covered with blood. He
17 turned to Goran, and he merely indicated to him the
18 direction in which he should go in front of him, and
19 they started towards the corner of the building. But
20 even as the detainee reached that corner, Goran fired
21 at the back of his head, and I saw the detainee fall.
22 After that, Goran approached the group that I
23 was with.
24 Q. When you say the man fell, did he fall, so
25 far as you could judge, dead, or was he still alive, or
1what was the position?
2 A. He was dead. He was -- he partly fell down
3 behind that corner, but we could still see his legs on
4 this side.
5 Q. The man Goran approached your group. What,
6 if anything, did he say or do?
7 A. When he approached our group, he told us to
8 empty our pockets, all that we had there, our money,
9 valuables, documents, and we put it all here at the
10 corner of this hangar. There was an old car, unusable
11 car, and we put it on the hood of that car. He
12 collected all of this, and he said that this was all
13 intended for the families of fallen Serb combatants.
14 As he took it away, he told us sardonically
15 that he could guarantee that we would not live to see
16 the morning there. So he took these things away, and
17 came back again, and took us into the hangar.
18 Q. In the hangar, did you see the man Goran
19 again shortly thereafter or at any time thereafter?
20 A. I did see him shortly thereafter. He entered
21 the hangar, was asking for three volunteers. He did
22 not wait for them to apply. He pointed, "You, you, and
23 you," and the person sitting next to me stood up and
24 went out, that is, he took them out. They went out.
25 After a while, that person came back. I
1could see that he was all shook up, that he was very
2 emotional, so I asked him, "What happened?" He told me
3 that he had to carry -- he said, "I carried a man and
4 threw him onto a pile, and yet I can feel his heart
5 beat." He was very shaken by that.
6 Q. That night, what happened so far as detainees
7 in the hangar were concerned? Did they all stay there
8 or did any of them leave? If so, what were the
9 circumstances of their leaving?
10 A. During that night, the detainees were taken
11 out in foursomes. I would be alerted every time they
12 would come in, open the door and put the lights on, but
13 then they took three men next to me out and they didn't
14 come back.
15 I really had it very hard, and I remember one
16 case when people were taken out, after which Goran
17 returned very quickly, because on that particular
18 occasion one of the detainees said, "In a year, the
19 machine gun will fire again." Then he was back in no
20 time at all and said, "Which one of you said that the
21 machine gun would bark again within a year?" That man
22 said, "I did," and so he went out too. I know he
23 returned after about half an hour or so. We did not
24 expect him to come back alive. But I noted that
25 somebody sitting next to him asked him, "So how was
1it?" He turned to him and blew in his face or
2 something like that, and he seemed to be reeking of
4 So they were taking people out until late
5 into the night. I can't really say because I lost my
6 sense of time.
7 Q. When you say they took them out in foursomes,
8 at what interval of time did they go out in foursomes?
9 If you can put an interval on it.
10 A. Well, it was about half an hour. Something
11 like that. I'm not really sure; about half an hour.
12 Q. Did any, some, or all of the foursomes come
13 back? What happened?
14 A. I did not see them come back, but I must also
15 confess that at that particular time, I wasn't paying
16 much attention because I was really concerned about my
17 own fate, and I was trying to tell myself to persuade
18 myself that I would survive regardless of what was
19 going on.
20 Q. Did you see anything else of the man, Goran,
21 in the hangar that night?
22 A. I did. It was after midnight. He entered
23 the hangar and said he would not kill any more if we
24 knew how to sing a Serb song, "Who Says Who Lies," and
25 if we could sing it three times without making a
1mistake. And after that, we all sang, and he was very
2 happy, and he sort of conducted our singing. And after
3 that, he called all of those would were outside to
4 enter and see the balija singing.
5 Q. The following day, the 9th of May, you
6 started the day in the hangar?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see something of a man called Stipo
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Tell us very briefly what happened to him,
12 and if you can, at what time of the day.
13 A. It was in the morning. Goran brought him to
14 the hangar, and I know he was quite merry, so he put
15 him in the middle of the hangar and told us, "Here's
16 your Stipo walking around the town." And after that,
17 he put on a serious mien and said, "Well, he has killed
18 three Serbs; which one of you will kill him?"
19 And he started offering his gun to each one
20 of us, but none of the detainees would take it. And as
21 he reached the end, here, on the right-hand side, I
22 know that at that moment, Stipo asked us, "Come on,
23 fellows, why doesn't one of you kill me?" And Goran
24 heard it, so he came back to our side and started again
25 offering the gun to us, but none of us would take it.
1And there was another guard in a uniform, I
2 believe the reserve uniform, that is, the uniform of
3 the reserve forces, and he said, "Let me kill him; I
4 haven't killed an Ustasha since July."
5 And Goran told Stipo to get out immediately.
6 And I know there was yet another guard who had a long
7 sword or a sabre, and he hit Stipo on the back with the
8 blunt side of that weapon, and they took him out and to
9 the left, and they went in the other direction. And
10 then I heard a shot and the passage of the
11 refrigerating truck. But from the place where I was, I
12 could not see that murder. However, from other inmates
13 to the right and left of me, I heard that he had been
15 Q. Just two supplementary questions. What
16 ethnicity was Stipo? Did you know what he did before
17 this conflict, and what condition was he in when he was
18 brought in by Goran?
19 A. Stipo was a Croat by origin. I believe that
20 his last job was with Bimeks; I do not know if he was
21 retired. And what condition he was in, well, he
22 arrived in a suit, but he was all bloody, and there was
23 a puddle of blood under his feet where he had stood in
24 the hangar.
25 Q. A man, a detainee called Jasce, can you tell
1us about that man?
2 A. Yes. As regards Jasce, I remember Goran
3 entered the hangar and said, "Who's the one who cursed
4 a Serb woman's mother? I'll take him out." And he was
5 taken out, and I did not see him again. And I really
6 do not have anything else to say about that.
7 Q. A woman called Naza Bukvic --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- what can you tell us about her? Time of
10 day, again, if you can help.
11 Q. As regards Naza Bukvic, the time of the event
12 is the 9th of May. It was then when I was issued a
13 pass that I could leave the camp, and so I came out of
14 this office which I mentioned before to which we went
15 and where we were interrogated, and, at that moment, I
16 could not get through because on my way I saw Goran
17 beat Naza. She was sitting on the grass, and he had
18 one baton in every hand, in every hand he had a baton,
19 and I couldn't pass by because he was there, simply, he
20 was on my way. And he looked towards me, he spread his
21 arms, and he said, "Her brother is a sniper," and went
22 on beating her. She was all covered in blood. Her
23 clothes were torn. And he went on beating her, and I
24 managed to pass by them.
25 And then, after that, I stopped for a while,
1and I was there for another five minutes or so hoping
2 that through that person who had helped me get out,
3 perhaps help also my uncle who had stayed behind in a
5 Q. Just point on the photograph, if you can,
6 with the pointer, whereabouts it was that Goran was
7 beating the woman.
8 A. I cannot show it in this photograph because
9 it was a bit further down. I came out of this room and
10 started down that way, and so it was further down there
12 MR. NICE: If he could just briefly have the
13 other photograph in front of him, please, photograph
14 number 10, exhibit number 10.
15 Q. Does that show the place?
16 A. Here, in the grass [indicating].
17 Q. And you were --
18 A. Here, in this area, on the grass, here
20 Q. Thank you. You've spoken of your
21 interrogation; I needn't trouble you with that, either
22 at all or barely at all. Were you interrogated once,
23 or more than once?
24 A. Later? I'm sorry, I didn't understand you.
25 Q. Were you interrogated, yourself, once or more
2 A. You mean there, in Luka?
3 Q. Yes, in Luka.
4 A. Once.
5 Q. Was it by Goran or by someone else?
6 A. Someone else.
7 Q. Thank you. You explained that you managed to
8 get a pass to get out. In a sentence, who was it who
9 enabled you to get out of this particular place?
10 A. I would prefer not to mention the name.
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. But he was wearing a uniform of the Serbian
14 Q. Was he somebody you had known from before?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And as a result of that, paragraph 22, were
17 you released from Luka; did you move elsewhere for some
18 couple of months, until July; you thereafter went to
19 the Batkovic detention centre and were exchanged in
20 October 1992?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The man, Goran, you saw him at the barracks
23 and here at Luka; did you ever see him again?
24 A. I saw him on another two occasions, but I did
25 not have any contact with him. The first time was in
1Batkovic. He was on the other side of the fence; some
2 prisoners approached the fence. I did not want to do
3 that. And the next time was when I was exchanged at
4 Grbavica, because everybody in the bus was pointing at
5 Goran, because they were afraid of him.
6 Q. Did you at any stage get to know a name other
7 than Goran for this man?
8 A. In the camp, Goran was the only name I heard
9 of. Later I learned that his last name was Jelisic.
10 Q. From whom did you learn that, or how did you
11 learn that?
12 A. I believe it was from those who were there
13 with me.
14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not sure whether
15 in light of the fact that paragraphs 19, 20, and 21
16 reflect counts in the indictment that have already been
17 responded to in a particular way, I'm not sure whether
18 identity will be an issue, but I propose to ask this
19 next question of the witness --
20 Q. And Witness G, please just confine your
21 answer to this question to just "Yes" or "No"; do you
22 understand me? I'm going to ask you a question, and I
23 want you just to say to it "Yes" or "No."
24 Would you feel able, now, to identify the
25 person, Goran, if you saw him again? And please, just
1answer that question "Yes" or "No."
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. NICE: And I propose to ask the obvious
4 question, in the absence of restraint.
5 Q. Can you see him here today?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Point him out, please.
8 A. [Witness complies] I am certain that this is
9 this creature whom I have called Goran Jelisic in my
11 MR. NICE: The witness identified the
13 Q. Yes, thank you, Witness G. You will be asked
14 further questions.
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me thank
16 you, Mr. Nice, for using the summary in a way that I
17 think is completely consistent, which was the very
18 purpose of our work, that is, to allow the oral and
19 written facts to be expressed by the witness.
20 And now we can have the cross-examination,
21 but I would simply like to ask Mr. Greaves how much
22 time he needs.
23 MR. GREAVES: I was going to ask my learned
24 friend that he indicated that he was going to ask about
25 the names on the list, and he may well have forgotten
1to do that.
2 MR. NICE: I'm very grateful to Mr. Greaves.
3 I had omitted to deal with that. And if the witness
4 could have, please, the two lists. First the -- which
5 exhibit number is it?
6 First the longer list, which is -- I can't
7 remember the number of the exhibit -- 12. It's 12.
8 Yes, we can always use the same exhibit, Exhibit 12,
10 Q. You've been asked before to look at this list
11 of names and to go through them to see if you can
12 recognise any of the names, either as people you knew
13 or people of whose fate you were aware, or, indeed, if
14 there were any people that you had seen since your
15 being held at Luka.
16 On page 1, and in the middle of the page, a
17 little bit over halfway down, there's a name, Cembic.
18 Was that a name that you knew of?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did you know of him?
21 A. I knew this person from before the war. He
22 was at my house on the 1st of May, 1992, and then went
23 with the meat that he had bought, went home, and later
24 I heard that he had been labelled as a sniper and was
1Q. Four names up from the bottom, Glavocevic,
2 Stipo? Did you know him?
3 A. Yes, this is the person.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues]
5 A. I have already described his fate in my
6 statement. It is Glavocevic, Stipo.
7 Q. Hadzic, Suad, second from the bottom.
8 A. I knew Suad Hadzic. I met him at the
9 barracks. He had left on an earlier bus, I don't know
10 where, but I did not see him after that.
11 Q. Second sheet, two thirds of the way down,
12 Kartal, Kasim. Did you know that name?
13 A. I knew him even before the war. I did not
14 see them during or after the war.
15 Q. Third sheet, a third of the way down,
16 Muranjkovic, Galib. Known to you?
17 A. From before the war; I did not see him during
18 or after the war. But as far as I know, when I was in
19 Batkovic, his son was brought there, and that he had
20 been taken off that vehicle on the way there.
21 Q. Fourth sheet, two thirds of the way down,
22 Terzic, T-E-R-Z-I-C, Mohamed?
23 A. Yes. I knew Mohamed personally. I was
24 friends with him, and I knew his brothers from sight.
25 We were together in the mosque, and I saw them in Luka
1in a group of 30 who were released before the curfew,
2 and I heard that they were killed at home.
3 Q. Have you seen any of the people on that list,
4 to your knowledge, since the events that you have
6 A. No. You mean the ones we mentioned now?
8 MR. NICE: The next list, please. Would Your
9 Honours just give me a minute.
10 Q. On sheet 1 --
11 MR. GREAVES: He's turned his microphone off,
12 and I don't think he'll be heard by the interpreters.
13 MR. NICE:
14 Q. On sheet 1, the second name, is that the Papa
15 that you've already spoken of?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The same sheet, number 11, Irfan Topalcevic?
18 A. Topalcevic.
19 Q. Yes, Topalcevic with an "a". What was know
20 to you of him?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What happened to him, according to your
24 A. I knew him personally before the war. I did
25 not see him during or after the war. I heard that he
1was killed at home at the very beginning.
2 Q. Number 15 at the bottom of the sheet, Muhamed
3 Jakubovic, also known as Ulika?
4 A. Yes, I knew him. I know that he was killed
5 in the period after I was released from Luka and when I
6 was held in my neighbourhood. My information is that
7 he was making equipment for -- harnesses for horses and
8 that he was killed by one of the guys who worked there.
9 Q. The next sheet, number 16, Sakib Becirevic?
10 A. I knew him before the war. I did not see him
11 during or after the war. I heard that he was killed
12 behind the gymnasium and that Ranko Cesic was the one
13 who killed him.
14 Q. Number 17, Dr. Edhemovic?
15 A. Yes. I only knew him before the war. I did
16 not see him during or after.
17 Q. Did you hear of his fate?
18 A. I heard that he was killed, only that.
19 Q. 19, 20, and 21, the brothers Terzic, you've
20 spoken of one already. What did you hear of these
22 A. They returned from Luka and went to Kolobara,
23 where they lived. My information is that Kosta, the
24 Chetnik, killed them, nothing else.
25 Q. 23, Sulejmanovic?
1A. Yes, I knew him before the war. I met him
2 during the war when I was exchanged. I think it was on
3 the 4th or 5th of October 1992. While I was in the
4 bus, he was walking around in town, wearing a suit. I
5 don't know his subsequent fate.
6 Q. So you saw him in October 1992, and you don't
7 know what's happened about him since then.
8 Number 36 on the next sheet, Osman Vatic?
9 A. Yes. I did not know him before the war, and
10 I met him in Batkovic. I know that he was released
11 home from Batkovic, and I also heard that he was killed
12 as soon as he returned home.
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to
14 take a short break. The afternoon is long. I suggest
15 that we take a 15-minute break and start again at 3.30
16 or 3.35.
17 --- Recess taken at 3.18 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 3.40 p.m.
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can now
20 resume the hearing. Have the accused brought in, and
21 please be seated.
22 [The accused entered court]
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Before we
24 resume and before I give the floor to Mr. Greaves, my
25 colleagues and myself would like to speak to your
1interpreter, Mr. Londrovic and Mr. Greaves. Your
2 interpreter, yes.
3 MR. GREAVES: I haven't introduced her, and I
4 regret the discourtesy of not doing so.
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. We're
6 going to ask her to stand, because we would -- please
8 We, of course, agree that you be here. I
9 wanted to know what -- I asked Mrs. de Sampayo what
10 your status was, and that is all correct. But
11 nonetheless, I simply wanted not to have you take an
12 oath, that would take place at another place, but to
13 call your attention to the confidentiality which must
14 reign throughout these proceedings. We simply wish to
15 say this to you in a more official, solemn manner. I
16 should have done it as soon as we started working
17 yesterday, but I wanted to take advantage of this time
18 in order to make you fully mindful of those
19 responsibilities. All right?
20 MS. ZIVKOVIC: Yes.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I more or less
24 understood. You may be seated. I understood what you
25 said, and I thank you very much.
1All right, Mr. Greaves, the floor is yours.
2 You are going to conduct the cross-examination?
3 MR. GREAVES: Yes.
4 Could I just say about my interpreter, she's
5 been working for me and for other counsel for over two
6 years. She worked with us in the Celebici trial. She
7 has also, for a period, worked on behalf of the Office
8 of the Prosecutor. She has the confidence of everybody
9 that I've ever met that she is entirely aware of all
10 the requirements of confidentiality. I hope that's
11 also a further assurance to Your Honour. She's further
12 aware of what is required of her.
13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] That's fine.
14 You yourself, I assume, are mindful of your
15 own obligations. Can you tell us how long your
16 cross-examination is going to last? I'm sure that
17 you've got a mind which has been synthesised just as
18 brilliantly as your adversary or your opponent on the
19 other side of the bench.
20 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour is too kind. Your
21 Honour, I hope to be about an hour and a half. Can I
22 give you the usual caveat that all lawyers, I'm afraid,
23 give, which is that sometimes things develop, which
24 means you go on longer, or sometimes my estimations are
25 totally wrong and one runs over a bit. But I'm aiming
1at about an hour and a half.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] So that you
3 understand fully the totality of these proceedings, let
4 me remind you that the examination in chief, thanks to
5 the new method which the Prosecutor is using, and even
6 if you don't completely agree with that method, the
7 examination in chief lasted for 45 minutes.
8 I've noted what you have just said, but I ask
9 that you not repeat yourself. Please do not have the
10 witness repeat things that he may have already said.
11 All right. Let's begin, please.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
13 [Witness answers through interpreter]
14 Q. Witness G, I'm going to ask you some
15 questions now, please. Could you remember, please,
16 this, that whilst I ask you the questions, if there is
17 a question which you do not understand, please do not
18 be shy. Stop me, if you do not understand it, and ask
19 me immediately that I repeat it or rephrase it. Is
20 that acceptable to you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Mr. G, I would like to ask you this, please,
23 to start off with: When you made a statement to the
24 Office of the Prosecutor, you described yourself as, at
25 that time, being a soldier in the BiH army. Is that an
1occupation or an engagement that you continue to have?
2 Are you still in the BiH army or have you left it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You've left?
5 A. No, no, no, I'm with it.
6 Q. You're still in the BiH army?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you this? I don't want
9 to ask the details, for you to identify any particular
10 unit or regiment, but are you connected in any way with
11 military intelligence, in your occupation as a BiH
12 soldier, or the intelligence services in any way?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. I don't want to know any more
15 than that.
16 Mr. G, prior to the outbreak of conflict in
17 Brcko, were you in any way active in political life in
18 the town?
19 A. No.
20 Q. During the conflict, did you take part in
21 politics? Did you become a party member of any kind?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Have you become a member of, for example, the
24 SDA since the conflict?
25 A. No. I am not a member of any political
2 Q. Very well. I suspect that you've been
3 staying in The Hague for a couple of days, at the very
4 least, and you've been through the statements which you
5 made firstly to the BiH authorities, the
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, and to the OTP, and so
7 you're familiar with those two documents?
8 A. I am.
9 Q. Apart from those two statements, Mr. G, have
10 you made a statement of any kind to any other authority
11 concerning these matters?
12 A. No.
13 Q. I want to turn now, please, to the period
14 immediately before the commencement of conflict in
16 I think at the end of April 1992, and I don't
17 want to ask the details of this, but you were concerned
18 about your family -- someone in your family's medical
19 condition, as a result of which you had to go out and
20 be in the town?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. As a result of that, you found yourself in
23 the area of, presumably, the central area --
24 A. I don't understand you.
25 Q. I'm sorry. As a result of having to go out,
1you found yourself in the centre of Brcko?
2 A. I did not leave. It was my family which
3 left. I'm afraid I didn't understand your previous
4 question. I was at home throughout, and that is where
5 I was captured.
6 Q. I understand that. I'm asking about the last
7 part of April 1992, before your family left, and in
8 particular about the 30th of April. Did you go into
9 the town that day?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. It was during that trip that you heard the
12 explosions or explosions were heard; is that right?
13 A. No. I heard an explosion, and after the
14 explosion is when I went into town.
15 Q. Right. Then were you aware of checkpoints
16 having been set up in the town?
17 A. Yes, on the outskirts of the town. I knew
18 there were checkpoints set up around the town, but at
19 that moment there were no checkpoints within the town
21 Q. The checkpoints on the town periphery, were
22 those checkpoints only of one group of people, or were
23 some of them Serbian checkpoints, some of them Muslim
24 checkpoints; can you help us about that?
25 A. The checkpoints that I know about were manned
2 Q. Now, after hearing the explosions and going
3 into town, you eventually, I think, came towards the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is this right? There had been a number of
7 casualties as a result of whatever had happened at the
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Help us with your recollection, please. Are
11 we talking about two or three casualties, or tens of
12 casualties, or hundreds of casualties?
13 A. I cannot really estimate the number of
14 casualties. I did not go into town so as to see that.
15 I went out to find the pacifier for the child, because
16 it had broken, so that the mother could feed him. Then
17 I saw a group of men, and I saw those uniformed men who
18 would not allow anyone to get to the bridge.
19 What I could see were things scattered all
20 over. I saw how people were being turned in various
21 directions to see whether it was an arm or a leg.
22 Somebody said that it was behind the municipal hall, a
23 head or something.
24 Then I went down practically to the mouth of
25 the Brka River into the Sava. There was also a group
1which was looking at things scattered around and parts
2 of bodies on the grass there, and it was quite
3 crowded. We really had to find an appropriate place to
4 see what was going on. But I realised what had
5 happened, and I really didn't feel like counting.
6 That is all I have to say.
7 Q. I didn't want you to think that I was
8 suggesting to you that you should have stayed there to
9 count. I was just trying to get an idea of how many
10 people had been involved and either killed or wounded
11 as a result of this explosion.
12 Would it be fair to say that it probably
13 wasn't as many as 100 but it was more than ten or
14 something like that? Would that be fair? If I'm not
15 right about that, please say so.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That's a fair comment?
18 A. Yes, I believe that that would be, yes, the
19 correct estimate, yes.
20 Q. Thank you very much. You've been most
21 helpful. It was as a result of, no doubt, that that
22 you got your family away from Brcko. Did you then have
23 conversations with members of your family?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I don't want to know about where your
1family went to or anything like that. Does it come to
2 this, that you then sought, you and your family -- male
3 members of your family sought to get information about
4 what was going on and what you should do?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And were some representatives sent to the
7 local community office to find out what was going on,
8 and a particular individual went to check?
9 A. Yes, they were sent, but I had already
10 prevailed upon my family to leave home, which means
11 that I was at home when those representatives were sent
12 to the neighbourhood community.
13 Q. Can I just clarify this. By 1992, I think
14 you were aged 34; is that right? 33 or 34? Born in
16 A. I guess so, yes.
17 Q. Had you, prior to 1992, done your JNA
18 military service, compulsory service?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. Was one of the things that you were
21 interested in at that stage -- and I don't criticise in
22 any way you for doing this -- but were you interested
23 in what steps you should take towards helping to
24 protect your neighbourhood? Was that one of the
25 reasons why you sent representatives to the local
2 A. I didn't go there, to our neighbourhood
3 community. It was another person, and we sent him to
4 go there and see what was going on, because we could
5 see what was in the offing, and we wanted to see
6 whether there would be any resistance or whether it
7 would be just left to take its course.
8 Q. In light of the information that you were
9 given, did you and others then organise a number of
10 patrols, armed patrols?
11 A. We organised guards in our street, and that
12 was all. There was nothing else there to be
13 organised. We avoided any contact with any person we
14 did not know. We did not communicate with neighbouring
15 streets either.
16 Q. Did you observe -- well, sorry, let me just
17 ask this. Did you have at least one weapon, one
18 firearm with you? Or was it more?
19 A. One. We had one hunting rifle.
20 Q. So that we have an accurate idea of where
21 this is all taking place, what area of Brcko were you
22 based in?
23 A. Next to the hospital.
24 Q. Did you, during the course of the guard
25 duties that you undertook, did you come across, see
1anything of other patrols that had been formed?
2 A. We noticed to the left and to the right some
3 groups, but were they patrols or something else, I
4 don't know. We avoided any contact.
5 Q. Would those groups, would you have seen those
6 in the Kolobara and Maoca areas?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Just, again, so that we get the detail.
9 Kolobara, is that an area which was, at that time, of
10 mixed ethnicity but with a Muslim majority?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And by "mixed," I mean Muslim, Serb, and
13 indeed, Croat.
14 A. Quite.
15 Q. Can you help us about Maoca? Can you just
16 describe the ethnic makeup of that district?
17 I'm sorry, I've been told on my left that I'm
18 not pronouncing it correctly, but I hope you understand
19 the area I'm talking about, Mr. G.
20 A. Maoca, yes. The structure was more or less
21 the same as in Kolobara. The Muslims were a majority
23 Q. Thank you. I want to turn now to May the
24 1st, and would it be fair to say that's the first day
25 of any degree of fighting taking place between the two
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the first that you were able to see of it
4 were soldiers, in a vehicle, wearing a black hat with a
5 cockade on? Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. From your experience in the army and so on,
8 would you be able to say or identify who those troops
9 were and which side they belonged to?
10 A. As far as this statement about the troops is
11 concerned, this was a column which was moving and which
12 had -- there was this person with a fur hat and a
13 cockade, and these were the Chetniks.
14 Q. And in due course, you became aware that
15 shooting had started; I think the phrase that you have
16 used is "shooting." Is that small-arms fire, or small
17 arms and artillery, or what?
18 A. It started out with small-arms fire on the
19 other side of town on the 1st of May.
20 Q. "It started out with ..." Did artillery join
21 in later on the 1st of May, or was it exclusively small
23 A. Later, later, you could hear explosions too.
24 Q. And are you able to determine whether that
25 was artillery, in the sense of field guns, or was that
2 A. I don't know what period. Which date in
4 Q. May the 1st.
5 A. On May the 1st, as I said, it started out
6 with small-arms fire and maybe an occasional
7 explosion. This is how it started out, and that is
8 what went on into the night. I cannot say exactly, for
9 these explosions, when they occurred.
10 Q. And could you identify the area of Brcko in
11 which that was taking place?
12 A. It was in the area of town opposite from the
13 part of town where I was. It was the Dizdarusa
15 Q. And then did there follow about two days when
16 it was relatively quiet? Would that be right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did you hear, on May the 3rd, from an
19 acquaintance, something to the effect that the soldiers
20 were not coming further into the town but that most of
21 the town except for Kolobara had been taken over?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Again, on the --
24 A. That they would not cross Brka, over here,
25 but the centre of town and that area, they were already
2 Q. And again, on May the 3rd, was there some
3 degree of small-arms fire that you could hear during
4 the course of the day?
5 A. On the 3rd of May, the artillery fire
6 started, and the explosions, immediately followed by
7 small-arms fire.
8 Q. Firstly, could you determine from where the
9 artillery was coming, and could you determine where it
10 was landing?
11 A. The shells were flying over my head, and they
12 were falling in the section of Meraja, Vici, and in the
13 area of Suljaga Sokak, in those areas.
14 Q. And the area you've described, is that a
15 residential area, the area that the shelling was
17 A. Yes. Yes, Muslim population, with Muslim
19 Q. And would you describe the shelling that day
20 as intense or sporadic? What would be the right
22 A. Intense.
23 Q. I think that as a result of that you decided
24 that you were going to be safest in your basement,
25 and --
2 Q. -- did you become aware that small-arms fire
3 was also taking place, but in two directions, rather
4 than just the one of the shelling?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And can you help me about this, Mr. G?
7 Either at the time or subsequently, have you learnt
8 whether people were killed as a result of the military
9 activity that was taking place at that time? Or,
10 indeed, did you witness any bodies lying in the street,
11 or anything like that, that were obviously victims of
13 A. No. I was in the basement.
14 Q. Did you hear subsequently of people being
15 killed, or when you came out, did you see that?
16 A. No, I did not see it when I came out.
17 Q. The shelling and shooting, did that stop at
18 nightfall or did it continue during the hours of
20 A. Throughout the night, there was both shelling
21 and there was shooting.
22 Q. I think that the next day, the 4th of May,
23 you heard some shooting, but it subsequently became
24 quiet, leading you to believe the fighting might have
25 been over?
2 Q. And I think -- and I don't want to go into
3 the detail of it in any way, but there was an incident
4 with a soldier about to throw a hand grenade, which --
5 that incident was prevented?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And from their uniforms you concluded that
8 they were the Serb volunteer guards; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And would another name for them be the Arkan
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You weren't able to leave, I think, at that
14 stage, but were allowed to go back in the basement; is
15 that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was there any further fighting on the 4th of
19 A. On the 4th of May, I was at the mosque.
20 Shooting could be heard.
21 Q. You were subsequently that day moved to the
22 mosque. On your way, did you see military forces in
23 the street or near the hospital yard?
24 A. I saw soldiers along the entire length of the
25 street and between the houses.
1Q. And were they the same ones that you had seen
2 earlier, the Serb volunteer guards, or were they
3 regular troops, or what kind of troops were they?
4 A. Those were the ones who found us in the
5 basement, the Serb volunteer guard.
6 Q. Mr. G, I would like to ask you now, please,
7 about the mosque. When you got there, were there
8 already people detained there or were you the first
10 A. I was not among the first. There were
11 already people there.
12 Q. Can you tell us how many people were there?
13 A. Again, it's a question of my estimate. It
14 was a little less than half of the entire space in
15 which we were kept, and now, I don't know how to
16 estimate that number.
17 Q. I'm going to ask you to do your best. I
18 don't want an exact figure, Mr. G; I know it's
19 difficult. Is it a large mosque, small mosque? What's
20 the sort of size of the mosque you would -- can you
21 give us an idea of that?
22 A. It was a regular mosque. It was this one
23 larger space, and there was a smaller one, and we were
24 put in this bigger one.
25 Q. If I can just explore it a little further.
1After you arrived, were other people brought in after
2 you arrived?
3 A. Yes, other people were brought in after my
5 Q. You've described the -- as best you can at
6 the moment -- the size, but again, if we can use this
7 method, are we talking about just 30 or 40 people, or
8 100-plus people, or 1.000 people?
9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think you've
10 already asked the question. Please move to another
11 question. I think that you've already asked it, and he
12 has answered as best he can. Please move along.
13 MR. GREAVES: I didn't pursue the question
14 earlier on because I was thinking how best to put it to
15 him, but I hadn't completed it. Please, can I just try
16 and help him to help you?
17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No, no, no.
18 Please move to another question. Move to another
19 question. We've spoken a great deal about the mosque
20 already. You've asked him to describe whether it's
21 big, small, average. The witness has answered as best
22 he can. Please move to another question. Thank you.
23 MR. GREAVES:
24 Q. I would like you to help us, please, Mr. G,
25 about who was in control at the mosque. Were they
1soldiers, were they police? What sort of people were
2 in control at the mosque?
3 A. In the mosque, we were guarded by soldiers of
4 the Serb volunteer guard. And different, other
5 military groups could enter the mosque wearing
6 different types of insignia.
7 Q. Is this right that, at that stage, women were
8 separated from you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. As well as women being separated, were any
11 people who were under 18 taken away, or people who were
12 obviously elderly and unfit for military service?
13 A. I know that inside there were also those
14 younger than 18, and also elderly. It was only later
15 that they were taken away from the mosque, not right
17 Q. So to clarify, the women were taken away
18 first but at a later stage, on a later day, young
19 people and elderly people were taken away?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I'd like to ask you now about an incident
22 which took place on the first night, Mr. G, involving,
23 I think, a man called Enes Turkusic. Do you recall
24 that name?
25 A. Turkusic; yes, I knew him.
1Q. You knew him, and what, knew him from before
2 the war?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And is this right, that he managed to escape
5 from the building, from the mosque building?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you hear anything either immediately
8 after these events or in subsequent years as to what
9 had happened to him after his escape?
10 A. I heard it later. I heard that he was killed
11 on the 24th or 25th of May, that he had attempted to
12 swim across the Sava River and was pulled out at
14 Q. And was that information given to you from a
15 source that you trusted and thought was reliable?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. I want to turn now, please, to
18 the man who was killed on that occasion. I think you
19 knew of him as Kike; is that right?
20 A. Kike.
21 Q. Did you know that person from before the war?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you learn at the time what his full name
24 was, or have you learnt it subsequently?
25 A. No.
1Q. Can I offer a name to you and see whether it
2 rings any bells: Kike Suljic?
3 A. Yes, but I did not know that name.
4 Q. Can I just clarify. You confirm that that
5 may well have been the name, but you didn't know it at
6 the time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. G, that's helpful.
9 Did you become aware that person's brother
10 was also being held at the mosque?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is this right, that at some stage, I think
13 probably during the first night, somebody called Kosta
14 came to the mosque?
15 A. Yes, he came around frequently.
16 Q. And was he someone that you knew from before
17 the war, or was this the first time that you had come
18 across him?
19 A. I saw him then for the first time.
20 Q. And can you describe the man that you called
21 Kosta, can you give a description of him? Age, build,
22 colour of hair, height, that sort of thing?
23 A. He had a dark complexion, looked like a
24 Gypsy, as people say.
25 Q. Apart from that, can you say how old he was?
1A. Again, it's a matter of judgement. Perhaps
2 my age.
3 Q. Was he bigger than you, smaller than you?
4 A. He wasn't as tall as I was. He was shorter.
5 Q. Just for the record, how tall are you, Mr. G?
6 A. (redacted)
7 Q. I would like you to look at --
8 A. I don't know if you want a drawing of me.
9 Q. No, thank you. You're being very helpful,
10 and your answers are most concise, if I may say so.
11 Thank you very much, Mr. G.
12 I would like you to look at a photocopy of a
13 photograph, please, the Defence exhibit shown to the
14 other witness.
15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] (redacted)
20 Try to remain as close as you can to the
21 examination in chief. Let me remind you of that.
22 MR. GREAVES:
23 Q. Would you please look at the photograph,
24 Mr. G? That photograph may well be quite an old
25 photograph dating from the mid or early 1980s. Is that
1the man that you knew as Kosta? Can you say? If you
2 can't, just say so.
3 A. He's very light-skinned here. I cannot.
4 Q. All right, thank you.
5 I would like now to turn, please, to May the
6 6th, Mr. G. That's the date on which I think you were
7 transferred to the barracks. Can you say --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- how many people were transferred to the
11 A. I was on a truck that was fully loaded. We
12 were packed, and we almost couldn't fit.
13 Q. Was there only one truck in use or was there
14 other trucks used to transport you that day?
15 A. I believe it wasn't just one, but I cannot
16 recall at this very moment.
17 Q. Mr. G, you have said that at the barracks,
18 you saw Goran and Kosta?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You say that on the 6th of May, he was
21 wearing -- the man Goran was wearing a bandage?
22 A. I did not say that it was on the 6th of May.
23 It was when he was at the barracks, but I cannot say
24 what date that was.
25 Q. How many days were you at the barracks?
1A. I arrived on the 6th, and I was transferred
2 to Luka on the 8th, in the afternoon.
3 Q. What you told the Office of the Prosecutor
4 was that you were transferred by bus to the army
5 barracks on the 6th, and you then described how you
6 were taken to the front room of the building by
7 soldiers, and that you saw Goran on that occasion and
8 you [sic] had a bandage on his wrist. Does that
9 refresh your memory as to the date when you saw him
10 with a bandage?
11 A. As far as that statement is concerned, that
12 we were transferred to the barracks from the mosque, I
13 don't know about that statement. From what document is
15 Q. It's the statement which you made to the
16 Office of the Prosecutor on two dates in February and
17 March 1995, Mr. G, so not the statement that you made
18 to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities.
19 A. I know that I was on a truck. I don't know
20 about this other thing.
21 Q. You see, what I suggest is that if, as you
22 assert, that was Goran Jelisic, Goran Jelisic had not
23 at that time, the 6th of May, been injured in such a
24 way that he had to wear a bandage and that you are
25 either mistaken or being untruthful about him being at
1the barracks that day.
2 A. On which day, on which day?
3 Q. The 6th of May, Mr. G.
4 A. I did not say that Goran Jelisic was at the
5 barracks on the 6th of May. I am not aware of that
7 Q. So when you described, in your OTP statement,
8 seeing somebody called Goran with a bandage, that was
9 someone different from the person you identified in
10 court today, was it?
11 A. No, that was the same person.
12 Q. What I suggest to you is that you simply
13 didn't see Goran Jelisic on the 6th of May because he
14 wasn't, at that stage, injured, didn't have a bandage,
15 so that you may deal with that.
16 A. I did not see him on the 6th of May.
17 Q. I want to ask you now, please, this.
18 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour just give me
19 a moment, please.
20 Q. Yes. I would like to ask you now, please,
21 about some prisoners who were with you at the
22 barracks. Would this be right? You recognised some of
23 them; Adnan Mustic, Salim Karamehic?
24 A. Yes. I was with them.
25 Q. Mirasi? I think I pronounced that badly.
1Does that ring a bell?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Someone you've described as Nermin Suljic, is
4 it possible that that was, in fact, Nermin Suljagic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. As far as the alleged conversation by the
7 person you've identified as Jelisic about people coming
8 to you later and giving percentages who would be killed
9 and beaten up, I suggest to you that that was never
10 said by Goran Jelisic.
11 A. Oh, yes, I claim that he did say that.
12 Q. Can you explain, please, why, when you made a
13 statement to the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you
14 made no mention whatever of that conversation?
15 A. As regards my statement to the authorities of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is a case unto itself, because
17 I was almost interrogated when I was giving that
18 statement. Here they read the statement, then they
19 typed it, and what you notice there, you mentioned some
20 names, the names of people that I did not know, and at
21 the time that I gave my statement to the
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, it was immediately in
23 the wake of my exchange and every visit to -- that was
24 the time when planes were shelling, when shells were
25 falling, when there was bombing, when any -- so those
1were the conditions under which I gave that statement,
2 under which it was worded, and I simply didn't want to
3 go there again because it was so difficult, and I
4 accepted what they showed me that day.
5 Q. I understand fully that your circumstances
6 were most difficult. Let me just ask you this: Was
7 that October 1992 when you gave your statement to the
8 authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you sign the statement at the end?
11 A. I did. It was said that it was merely for
12 internal use, and I did not see any fundamental thing.
13 All they wanted to know was what had been going on,
14 what was happening, so some names, I said that they
15 were typed later, and the statement was put before me.
16 I explained why I didn't want to go there again. I
17 simply wanted to have it over and done with as soon as
19 Q. I shall be corrected if I'm wrong, but at the
20 conclusion of your statement is this:
21 "At the end, I wish to state I give this
22 statement based on what I personally saw and partly
23 upon what I was told by others in the camp, and I sign
24 it as my own statement. Everything I have included
25 here I am prepared to verify before the court or some
1international commission which may be interested."
2 Do you recall that?
3 A. No, not really. No, I don't recall it. I'm
4 telling you the state I was in, and in a kind of my
5 self-examination, and I simply was trying to get away
6 from there as quickly as possible.
7 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I don't want to
8 take any greater length of time, but I want to confirm
9 that that's what he signed, and I wonder whether the
10 original of his Bosnia-Herzegovina statement could be
11 given to him so that he could just identify his
12 signature, please. I don't want to be unfair to him.
13 If we've got the wrong document, then that would be
14 unfair, of course.
15 A. No, there is no need. I already said, as
16 regards that statement, I do not see really any
17 fundamental thing except what they added into it
18 subsequently, but I do not think it really affects much
19 things that happened.
20 MR. GREAVES:
21 Q. Mr. G, do you accept that during the course
22 of that statement, you named a number of people that
23 you recognised at the barracks; Rajko Rajcic, Djordje
24 Ristanic, Mladen Tesic or Teslic, Branislav
25 Stanisavljevic, Ratko Orlic, Zeljko Muminovic, and
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. At no stage during that statement to the
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities did you say, "I had seen
5 Goran at the barracks." Do you accept that?
6 A. I wouldn't know that I hadn't told them that,
7 really. I telling you that they practically were
8 interrogating me, and I wanted to get rid of them as
9 quickly as possible.
10 Q. I want to turn now, please, to your transfer
11 to Luka. At what time of day did your transfer take
13 A. Sometime in the afternoon.
14 Q. Middle of the afternoon, late afternoon?
15 A. After noon. I cannot be more accurate than
17 Q. When you arrived, were there people already
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were they already inside the hangar, or were
21 they outside, or where were they?
22 A. Both in and outside the hangar.
23 Q. Again, are you able to help us as to how many
24 people were already there before your arrival? Sorry,
25 upon your arrival.
1A. Well, it's again a matter of opinion, really,
2 and I should say there were not less than 80 and not
3 more than 120.
4 Q. Thank you. First of all, were they people
5 who had been formerly at either the barracks or the
6 mosque; did you recognise any of them from there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When you first got there, is this right, that
9 you were told first to wait at the first hangar?
10 A. When we arrived there, those troops who had
11 brought us told us to wait there.
12 Q. Would this be right, as you told the OTP,
13 that there were some 30 to 40 standing outside the
14 hangar, and those people had already received their
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. By "pass", Mr. G, I mean a pass enabling them
18 to be released from the camp.
19 A. I don't know. I don't know what pass that
20 was. But whatever the case, they were standing there,
21 waiting to be released.
22 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour will forgive me. I
23 forgot to deal with one matter concerning something
24 which happened at the mosque, and I'll return to that
25 now, if I may.
1Q. Mr. G, forgive me if we just go back a little
2 bit. I forgot to put one matter to you.
3 The man called Papa, Ahmed Hodzic or Hadzic,
4 is this right, that firstly he was a local community
5 leader and a member of the SDA?
6 A. He used to say that he was a member of the
7 SDA and president of a neighbourhood community, I
9 Q. Did you personally witness him being beaten?
10 A. While they were beating them there in the
11 hallway of the mosque, at that time, yes, I was there.
12 Q. Was it being made clear that the reason he
13 was being beaten was because of his connections with
14 the SDA and his place in the community?
15 A. Yes, I thought that that was the reason.
16 Q. Thank you. I'll return now back to the front
17 of the hangar, if I may, and I'm grateful for enabling
18 me to go back.
19 Were you initially kept at the front of the
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You were able to see people being taken to
23 the office?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is this right, that some of those were
1returning to your group with passes?
2 A. Not my group; the group across, across from
3 our group.
4 Q. So that the initial group that you saw
5 standing outside the hangar was being increased by
6 people coming out of the hangar, going to the offices,
7 being interrogated; do you know?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Coming out of the offices and joining that
10 first group?
11 A. While I was there, two or three joined that
13 Q. That group that already had passes, was it
14 subsequently released that day or that night?
15 A. Towards the evening, towards late afternoon,
16 they were released, yes.
17 Q. How long did you remain outside the hangar?
18 A. You mean in terms of time? I am afraid I did
19 not have any sense of time. I said we were taken in by
20 Goran Jelisic. It was a short time before the
22 Q. Were you able to discover anything about the
23 interrogations that were taking place?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I want to ask you now about the killings
1which you say that you observed.
2 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours would just give
3 me a moment, please.
4 Q. What you told us today and what you told the
5 Office of the Prosecutor was that the first person you
6 saw with Goran was taken around the corner of a
7 building and out of your sight. May we take it from
8 that that you did not, in fact, see anybody being
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the extent of the information that you
12 can give Their Honours is that the person you saw, the
13 person you described as Goran, did not reappear?
14 A. What do you mean? I don't understand.
15 Q. The most that you can tell us is that one of
16 the persons who went around the corner, the detainee,
17 did not reappear?
18 A. Goran reappeared.
19 Q. Yes, but not the detainee? I'm interested
20 in --
21 A. No. He did not.
22 Q. And you're quite sure that you saw absolutely
23 nothing of the killing, or a killing, at that stage?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So that you may deal with it, Mr. G, please,
1can you explain why, in your statement to the
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, you claimed to have
3 seen a killing at that stage then, in relation to the
4 first person that you saw?
5 A. It seems I have to say that, again, that was
6 not the way I put it to the authorities of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was how it was put to me. And
8 I did not want to come for the second or for the third
9 time, because the second or the third person, that was
10 the same kind of thing, said here and there.
11 Do you know when it was that I gave my
12 statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities? They
13 were writing it with a pencil, and on the basis of all
14 the statements of all the people they interrogated at
15 the time, they then made probably one statement. And I
16 would have had to go back there and to be exposed again
17 to all that I had been already exposed to.
18 As to the substance, there is no difference,
19 there is no discrepancy. I did not see the first one,
20 but I saw the second one being killed. And I just
21 really didn't want to go into it; I didn't want to
22 discuss it with them. And besides, they also told me
23 that it was only for their internal use. I didn't feel
24 like going back there.
25 Q. Mr. G, I want to make sure exactly the
1circumstances in which you gave this account. You said
2 to their Honours just now -- and I'm reading from your
3 evidence -- "That was not the way I put it to the
4 authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was how it was
5 put to me." Are you saying that you were told what to
6 put in that statement?
7 A. Yes, yes, I said the same thing as I said
8 afterwards, that is the sequence and all of that.
9 Q. So where your statement to the
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities differs from that which
11 you made to the Office of the Prosecutor, that may be
12 explained by you being persuaded to put in things which
13 were not true?
14 A. As regards the substance, I'm telling you,
15 the first or the third, there is no difference in
16 substance. I'm saying that I said what I had told
17 them, and I said the same here, except that when they
18 were putting it together, when they were writing it
19 out, typing it out, then the third person appeared to
20 be the first. That is, the third person that I talked
21 about to them, they put it in the first place, and the
22 other way. But basically what I said was that I saw
23 with my own eyes one murder, and I don't see what else
24 I have to say about that.
25 Q. I think we'll move on.
1As far as any conversation about handing over
2 of valuables and so on, I suggest to you that that is
3 not correct, that did not happen.
4 A. Well, I say that it did happen.
5 Q. Can you help us with this. The group that
6 were in fact released, can you say at what time it was
7 they were released? Was it close to curfew time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And so that we may know what time that was,
10 at what time was the curfew on that occasion?
11 A. I don't know. Because one of those troops
12 said, "Well, if you are releasing them, let us release
13 them before the curfew." And I know when they were
14 released, they all started running towards the exit.
15 Q. You were able to see them leaving. Was Goran
16 still there when they left and able to see them
18 A. I suppose he could. I was in the hangar,
19 right across the door. I saw them leave. Of course, I
20 could not follow them all the time, but insofar as the
21 door was open, I could see them leave.
22 Q. As far as the account which you give of Goran
23 coming in and getting you all to sing songs and
24 conducting that exercise, again, I suggest that that
25 did not happen.
1A. I say that it did happen.
2 Q. Although it is right to say that you told the
3 BiH authorities about being forced to sing songs, you
4 said nothing to them about Goran directing and
5 conducting the exercise, and in your statement to the
6 Prosecutor, you made no mention at all of that
7 incident; can you explain that?
8 A. I did not say that it was somebody else
9 either. It simply depends, and one doesn't really
10 remember every little thing at any given moment.
11 Q. During the course of the night, when you'd
12 been put into the hangar, are you saying that people
13 were taken out as foursomes throughout the night at
14 regular intervals?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Once every 15 minutes, once every 30
17 minutes? What are we talking about?
18 A. Well, it's again a matter of opinion. It
19 wasn't all that quickly; not every 15 minutes. Some
20 intervals were shorter and longer, but I cannot be more
22 Q. Again, what you told the BiH authorities was
23 that three prisoners were taken out, and you made no
24 mention of anything more than that. And --
25 A. Three detainees. At the time when the light
1fell on me, they also lit up those three prisoners.
2 But I do not know -- as for that statement, I don't
3 think I could have omitted to mention that.
4 Q. Again, in your statement to the Office of the
5 Prosecutor, you mention a total of seven people being
6 taken out.
7 A. I said after that first time, when the light
8 was thrown on me, that I know that people were being
9 taken out, but I couldn't know how many. To begin
10 with, it was a long time ago. Secondly, I was really
11 trying to use that time to come to terms somehow with
12 my fate, trying to find some encouragement within me.
13 I was focusing on my own fate. And when somebody said
14 -- and when Goran came back, I was trying to remember
15 those things then.
16 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. I misled the Court,
17 in fact. The figure -- it's because I can't read my
18 own writing. It should have been ten, not seven, and I
19 apologise to Your Honour and the witness.
20 Q. It was ten, in all, that you mentioned, but
21 in groups of three, three, and four, Mr. G.
22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think that we
23 might take a break now.
24 A. I don't know where I could have made that
1MR. GREAVES: How long is the break for, so
2 that we can go and see my client?
3 All right. I'm sorry. I missed what Your
4 Honour said. I do apologise.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.00 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 5.25 p.m.
7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can now
8 resume the hearing. Please have the accused brought
9 in, and be seated.
10 Mr. Greaves?
11 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your
13 Q. Mr. G, can I just clarify something with you,
14 please. And just to retrace my steps slightly, the
15 issuing of passes on the night of May the 8th, that's
16 the day on which you were transferred to Luka. Is it
17 your evidence that the issuing of passes was taking
18 place in the administration offices or somewhere else?
19 A. From where the prisoners were taken to and
20 then taken from.
21 Q. Was there a table inside the hangar where
22 passes were being issued, passes for release?
23 A. In the hangar.
24 Q. Inside the hangar?
25 A. As I said, I don't know. With respect to the
1issuance of these passes, when I arrived there, people
2 were standing in front of me inside the hangar, so I
3 don't know.
4 Q. Were you able to see by whom the passes were
5 being issued? Was it by an ordinary soldier, or a
6 civilian, or somebody that you could identify, or --
7 help us with that.
8 A. No. No.
9 Q. I want to ask you just one detail, please,
10 about the man Stipo Glavocevic. You knew him before
11 the war?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. He was working as a police officer; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He was of Croatian origin?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I want to clarify one thing that was said or
19 that you may have said in relation to the person Jasce
20 or Jasce.
21 You told us about Goran coming in and asking
22 a question. Can you just repeat the question again,
23 because it's possible that your full answer may not
24 have come out on the transcript. Can you tell us what
25 exactly was said?
1A. Yes, I can. He said, "Let the person get up
2 who cursed the Serbian waitress. I know who it is."
3 Q. That's all you say that was said?
4 A. Something like that, so that this person
5 should get up himself.
6 Q. I want next to ask you about the man who
7 enabled you to be released. I don't want you to say
8 his name in public, but would you be prepared, please,
9 to write it down for the use of the Court?
10 A. I don't know why the name is significant.
11 Q. Well, with respect, there may be information
12 that we have concerning him that would enable us to,
13 but I don't want to mention the name in public.
14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I would respectfully
15 invite my learned friend to show relevance before he
16 compels the revelation of a name, the sensitivity of
17 which is perhaps fairly obvious, for the person named
18 assisted this man to safety and it may be there are
19 concerns about this man's safety in the mind of the
21 Absent relevance, there's no need for us to
22 reveal that name at all. Once it is revealed to the
23 Defence lawyers, it's inevitably available to everyone
24 within the Defence.
25 MR. GREAVES: It is already within our
1possession, for obvious reason.
2 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Move to another
4 question, Mr. Greaves.
5 MR. GREAVES: I was going to say, Your
6 Honour, that I didn't press the matter.
7 Q. In any event, that person arranged for you to
8 get a pass. Is this also right, that -- and I don't
9 want to know what the relationship was, but a relation
10 of yours was also enabled to get a pass?
11 A. When I got the pass, I stayed behind in order
12 to attempt to perhaps work with this person in order
13 for my relative to be issued another pass, but
14 eventually he was not issued the pass.
15 Q. How many people were released at the same
16 time as you were?
17 A. In the line in front of this room, we were --
18 Your Honours, this is all a matter of judgement. We
19 were about 10 to 15.
20 Sometimes when I state things like this, this
21 is something that I say to the best of my
22 recollection. They ask me to say exactly, but I say
23 what I know best. So maybe later on, somebody again
24 will ask me to say the exact number, and I may not even
25 remember what I had said on a previous occasion when I
1was asked to give my best estimate.
2 Q. Mr. G, the answer that you've given is, "We
3 were about 10 to 15." It would have been simpler, with
4 respect to you, to have said, "We were about 10 to 15,"
5 if that's your answer. Thank you.
6 I want to ask you now, please, about the
7 beating of Naza Bukvic. Is this right, that your
8 evidence is that Goran said, in relation to her, that
9 her brother was the main sniper in the town?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So that the purpose and motive behind the
12 beating was because her brother was a sniper?
13 A. Perhaps he made it a motive.
14 Q. I want to ask you next, please, about you
15 having seen Goran Jelisic again after your release from
17 A. You mean Batkovic?
18 Q. No. Let me ask the question slightly more
19 clearly. You left Luka, having been released on a
20 pass. Subsequently, your evidence is that you saw
21 Goran Jelisic on two further occasions, once at
22 Batkovic camp and once when you were in a bus and
23 persons pointed him out to you; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you accept this, Mr. G, that in
1relation to your statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina
2 authorities, you did not mention at all seeing Goran
3 Jelisic again, and in your statement to the Office of
4 the Prosecutor, you only claimed to have seen him on
5 one occasion at Batkovic camp?
6 A. These statements, and let me repeat it, were
7 given in different circumstances. When I was giving a
8 statement for the Bosnia and Herzegovina authorities, I
9 was answering questions, and whatever I was asked,
10 these were the answers that I had given them. It is
11 entirely possible that I had completely forgotten about
13 Q. As far as learning what his name was, that is
14 as a result of you being told by others what they
15 believed to be his name; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I want to turn now, please, to the list of
18 names. You will recall that with Mr. Nice, you went
19 through a number of names, and I just want to ask a
20 little bit more detail about that.
21 The man Midhat Cembic, is this right: Was
22 he --
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me remind
24 you that you have about six or seven minutes left. Try
25 to organise yourself accordingly, please.
1MR. GREAVES: I'm hoping to be done, but I
2 need to just go through these.
3 Q. Midhat Cembic, Mr. G, is this right, that he
4 was a member of the SDA?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. You heard that he had been labelled a sniper
7 and that was the motive behind his killing. Did you
8 hear any other details of that?
9 A. Regarding Midhat Cembic, when I was at the
10 barracks, I know that a soldier walked in and asked us
11 did anybody know Midhat Cembic. I did not respond at
12 that time. Then he said, "Who would have thought that
13 he was a sniper?" This is how I knew that he had been
14 sort of pointed out as a sniper.
15 Q. This was as a result of something that
16 somebody else said to you. Can you say when it was?
17 Was any other information about when he had been killed
18 given to you?
19 A. No. (redacted)
20 (redacted). Nothing else.
21 Q. I'd like to turn, please, to the name Kasim
22 Kartal. Is he one of two brothers who I think were at
23 one stage involved heavily in football; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was either Kasim or his brother, to your
1knowledge, a member of the SDA?
2 A. I don't know. I don't know.
3 Q. Galib Muranjkovic, you knew something about
4 his being killed, is that right, Galib Muranjkovic?
5 A. No. I said that I did not meet him either
6 during or after the war, but when I was at Batkovic,
7 his son had been brought there and he said -- he
8 related that his father was taken off a vehicle on the
10 Q. Can you tell us the name of his father, the
11 first name of his father?
12 A. Galib Muranjkovic.
13 Q. And the name of the son?
14 A. Son's name? Right now, I cannot recall it,
15 but I know him and I would remember it at some point.
16 Q. Irfan Topalcevic, is this right, that you
17 heard that he was killed at home? Did he live in the
18 Kolobara district?
19 A. He did.
20 Q. Was he an SDA member, to your knowledge?
21 A. I don't know. I don't know.
22 Q. Do you know when it was that you heard he had
23 been killed? Was it right at the beginning of the
24 conflict or at some later stage?
25 A. Later.
1Q. Later. Can you say how much later?
2 A. I learned about that later. When I came out
3 from Luka, it was then that I heard that Irfan had been
4 killed, and I heard it from his acquaintances who were
5 in the same building where I was put up.
6 Q. Mehmed Jakubovic, did he have a father called
8 A. I don't know anything about Mehmed Jakubovic.
9 Q. So you don't know what his fate was?
10 A. No, I don't.
11 Q. Then -- and I'm coming fairly rapidly towards
12 the end -- Sakib Becirevic; you heard that he was --
13 A. Kibe.
14 Q. Kibe? I'm sorry? What did you say, Mr. G?
15 A. Kibe.
16 Q. You heard that he was killed behind the
17 gymnasium; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that was by somebody called Cesic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know if he was a member of the SDA?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. And can you say when the killing took place?
24 Do you know any of that?
25 A. No, I don't.
1Q. Dr. Edhemovic, again, do you know any of
2 the -- the date when he was killed? Would that be
3 1993? Do you know anything about that?
4 A. No, I don't know.
5 Q. The Terzic brothers: We've got details of
6 three of them, but were there in fact four brothers?
7 Can you help us about that?
8 A. They could have been Terzics.
9 Q. Somebody called Mido Terzic?
10 A. No. That wasn't him.
11 Q. I'd like, then, to ask you this: You've
12 identified someone as Kosta, the Chetnik, as having
13 been, according to your information, the killer of at
14 least one if not all of the brothers. Is Kosta the
15 Chetnik, is that Kosta Kostic?
16 A. I cannot confirm that.
17 Q. As far as -- is it your information that they
18 were killed in the Kolobara district?
19 A. According to what I heard, yes.
20 Q. And Vasif Suljemanovic, you saw him late in
21 1992, sometime around October?
22 A. On the 4th or the 5th of October.
23 Q. Have you been given information that
24 subsequently he was killed?
25 A. No.
1Q. And finally, Osman Vatic: He was detained at
2 Batkovic; is that right?
3 A. It is, if that is the Osman Vatic without a
5 Q. Yes. Well, the Osman Vatic without a leg,
6 your information or your knowledge is that he was
7 released; is that right?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Do you know the date upon which he was
10 released, whether exactly or approximately?
11 A. I don't. I don't. He spent quite some time
12 in the camp.
13 Q. Do you think it was 1992, or 1993?
14 A. 1992.
15 Q. And your information, again, was that he was
16 killed at his home subsequent to his release?
17 A. Yes, that is what I heard from other people.
18 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour just give me
19 a moment, please.
20 Q. At the very end of 1992, or earlier than
22 A. Now, again, it's a matter of thinking, of
23 estimating. I came out on the 4th of October, and he
24 was released before that.
25 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. G. I
1have no further questions for you.
2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
3 Mr. Greaves. Thank you for having respected the amount
4 of time that was given to you.
5 Mr. Nice?
6 MR. NICE: I have one topic to deal with in
8 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:
9 Q. Witness G, you have been asked questions
10 about your evidence to the effect that the man, Goran
11 Jelisic, at the barracks, spoke to you and others about
12 what was going to happen to you, generally, and it was
13 suggested that you had said in your statement to the
14 Office of the Prosecutor that this happened on the 6th
15 of May, and you denied that you'd said that in the
16 statement, specifically.
17 MR. NICE: May the witness have the B/C/S
18 version of the English statement which was taken, I
19 think, in English. I've sidelined each version with
20 the passage that I'd like him to look at. It's not an
21 exhibit yet, and unless the Chamber wants these
22 statements to be exhibited, they needn't be.
23 If the English version could go on the ELMO,
24 and if the witness could follow in the B/C/S version as
25 I read from the English version.
1Q. Witness G, in your statement there is this
2 passage: "During the afternoon of May the 6th, all the
3 detainees in the mosque were transferred by bus to the
4 army barracks. At the barracks, they put us in a big
5 room near the kitchen. I saw Goran Jelisic and Kosta
6 at the barracks.
7 "Soldiers took all of us from the room to
8 the front of the building. I was about 20 or 30 metres
9 from him. Goran had a characteristic voice, was
10 good-looking, had a bandage on his wrist, and he wore
11 the light blue civilian police uniform. He was
12 slightly taller than average height and had black
13 hair. Goran said to us, 'All of you are going to come
14 to me later.' He also said, '70 per cent of you should
15 be killed, 30 per cent should be beaten up, and
16 4 per cent of the 30 per cent were probably good.' He
17 cursed us and called us balijas. At that time I did
18 not know Goran's identity; however, I later saw him at
19 Luka. Goran left, and we went back into the room.
20 This occurred around noon. I spent two days at the
21 army barracks before I was transferred to Luka camp."
22 And then it goes on to deal with Luka camp.
23 Two things: Did Goran Jelisic say to you the
24 things that you've set out in this statement? "Yes" or
2 Q. Of the two days that you were at the
3 barracks, can you say on which day this happened?
4 A. The first day -- it certainly didn't happen
5 on the first day, because we were brought there in the
6 afternoon, and this happened sometime in the morning,
7 that is, before noon. It was daylight. So it could
8 have been either the 7th or the 8th of May.
9 Q. Thank you very much.
10 A. And here, when I was telling you it was the
11 6th of May, no, I was simply speaking about the events
12 that happened, and I told you that we were brought
13 there on the 6th, and then I was recalling all sorts of
14 other things, but I did not say that it all happened on
15 the 6th of May.
16 MR. NICE: I have no other re-examination of
17 this witness. Nothing else from me, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let
19 me turn to my colleagues. No questions? No
21 One point, but let me ask the Prosecutor, not
22 the witness: Mr. Nice, it seems that there is an
23 inconsistency between the statement made to the
24 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the statements
25 that were taken by your office. If you don't want to
1answer, don't. Here's my question: When you
2 interviewed Witness G, did you call his attention to
3 those inconsistencies, or did you use the same reasons
4 that had been used? Do you understand what I mean?
5 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I don't think
6 counsel can answer, because he wasn't -- according to
7 the information -- present at the time when that
8 interview took place, and I would be loath to get
9 counsel to give evidence in the case, which wouldn't be
10 a proper thing to do.
11 MR. NICE: I'm grateful for the protection of
12 my learned friend, but as to the statement, it's
13 quite --
14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,
15 you have a very subtle way of reminding me of things,
16 but I think that the Judges can ask certain questions,
17 and I would like to know something about that point.
18 And before you spoke, Mr. Greaves, you noted that I was
19 very careful to say to the Prosecutor that if he didn't
20 wish to answer, he didn't have to. Therefore, I didn't
21 really need your advice. It was simply a question
22 asked for clarification for the Tribunal. I could have
23 asked the witness the question, but I thought it was
24 much easier to ask the Prosecutor. But I keep my
25 question that I asked Mr. Nice, and that he doesn't
1have to answer if he doesn't want to.
2 MR. NICE: I'm quite happy to answer. In all
3 matters, I feel that maximum --
4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I thought so.
5 I thought so.
6 MR. NICE: As to the interview, of course,
7 that is the statement that we've just been looking at.
8 That was a statement taken well before I ever knew that
9 I was ever likely to be at the Tribunal. It was taken
10 by others. If Your Honour had in mind what's called,
11 in accordance with the practices of this institution,
12 the proofing session, I regret that I can't help you
13 there completely, because I have fortune, good or bad,
14 of having quite a lot of things to do, and the first --
15 the stage of proofing of the witness, I'm happy -- I'm
16 fortunate enough to have someone else do that for me in
17 the first stage, and I only spoke to the witness
18 personally, myself, at the latter stage.
19 I can find out for you, from the person who
20 did the proofing of the first stage, whether the
21 inconsistencies were drawn to the witness's attention,
22 but I can certainly tell you that at the time I spoke
23 to him myself -- which was shortly before he gave
24 evidence; I think the day before -- I didn't draw those
25 inconsistencies to his attention myself, because by
1that stage, matters were substantially already prepared
2 and summarised. But I can certainly find out.
3 I think, if it helps you, our approach
4 would -- well, yes, our approach would probably be to
5 deal with obvious inconsistencies where they seem
6 significant, because that would be a sensible approach
7 with the witness, and to get them resolved. But of
8 course we may not spot every inconsistency, or we may
9 not regard them always as significant. And, of course,
10 the overriding concern is to know from a witness what
11 his present recollection and account is, and unless
12 there is any reason to trouble him or her with earlier
13 inconsistencies for clarification, that may not always
14 be gone into.
15 But I can find out more about this witness.
16 I can deal with the matter generally, if that would
17 help you. And as to this witness, as with any witness
18 -- we haven't exhibited the two statements, but -- and
19 he's given an account of why the Bosnian statement is
20 as it is. But I'm in the Court's hands. If the Court
21 wants them to be exhibited, of course, they can be.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I, myself,
24 don't intend to go any further, even though I might say
25 to Mr. Greaves that I'm allowed to by the Rules. But I
1have no further comments to make. I think the best
2 thing to do, and I think everybody is agreed, starting
3 with the interpreters, who must be tired after this
4 long afternoon, I think that we should now adjourn
5 today's session and resume tomorrow morning at 10.00.
6 Would you like to add something,
7 Mr. Greaves?
8 MR. GREAVES: I would, please, if you
9 wouldn't mind. We would invite you, at the very least,
10 to have as an exhibit the statement made by this man to
11 the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities about which he has
12 explained so much.
13 MR. NICE: In which case, probably better for
14 both to be exhibited, I would have thought, both the
15 Bosnian one and the one to the Office of the
17 MR. GREAVES: I have no objection to that.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mindful of the
20 needs to maintain the rights of the accused, all of the
21 statements should be tendered as evidence, and we'll
22 ask the Registry to give them numbers.
23 We will now adjourn and resume tomorrow at
25 MR. NICE: May I detain the Court -- I think
1it will be convenient -- is it possible to go into
2 what's called, I think, private session for 30
3 seconds? It's an administrative matter that I've been
4 asked to deal with.
5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 [Private session]
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
13 6.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
14 the 2nd day of September, 1999, at
15 10.00 a.m.