Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1133

1 Wednesday, 8th September, 1999

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.03 p.m.

5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

6 seated. Registrar, have the accused brought in,

7 please.

8 [The accused entered court]

9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon

10 to the interpreters. I want to be sure that they can

11 hear me. Good afternoon to Prosecution and Defence

12 counsel and to the accused. I know that my colleagues

13 are ready, and we can continue with the

14 direct-examination of Witness J.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS J [Resumed]

16 [Witness answers through interpreter]

17 Examined by Mr. Nice:

18 Q. Witness J, you were telling us yesterday

19 about the man known as Papa. You told us how you'd

20 seen him brought from the police station by Jelisic.

21 What was Jelisic doing when he brought him out of the

22 police station?

23 A. He was walking down the middle of the street

24 towards the river, towards the Sava. He had a baton in

25 his hand and was beating Papa on his shoulders, telling

Page 1134

1 him to hurry, to move quicker because this was the last

2 time he was seeing his town. They then turned the

3 corner by the craft centre and then a shot could be

4 heard.

5 Q. Can the witness please have the aerial

6 photograph again in front of him? By the "craft

7 centre," would you point out what you mean, please?

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. It's the same small road or lane that you'd

10 seen Jelisic go to on an earlier occasion?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. As he went down that lane, what did he do to

13 Papa, or as he reached that lane, what did he do to

14 Papa?

15 A. I already said he was dealing him blows with

16 this baton on the back and telling him to go faster,

17 faster. Since the other one's leg had been injured by

18 blows, of course he was moving slowly. He said to him,

19 "Faster, faster."

20 Q. Then you said you heard a shot. I overlooked

21 the fact that you had already told us that.

22 Did you actually see the shooting or did you

23 just hear it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you see the shooting or did you just hear

Page 1135

1 it?

2 A. I only heard the shot because they turned the

3 corner into that lane. I could not see it. I was here

4 at that moment, somewhere near that tree [indicates],

5 so I could only hear it.

6 Q. Let me turn now to the man Suad. What did

7 you see of what happened to him?

8 A. Well, we were then here [indicates], in front

9 of the Oslobodenje kiosk, clearing the splintered

10 glass, we were the only two there, and since he had his

11 back on him, Goran called us, said, "You in the blue

12 jacket, come here." We both were wearing blue jackets

13 and I thought he was calling me. So I turned, but then

14 he said, "No, not you," and then cursed my Balija

15 mother. He said, "You'll be the last one, but the

16 other one."

17 So he took him here towards the entrance into

18 the SUP and ordered him to sing Serb songs and look at

19 the flag. He said that he didn't know how to sing Serb

20 songs, and then he ordered a soldier to bring a rifle

21 with a reinforced butt, and hit him on the shoulders

22 and again ordered him to sing. This one began to cry,

23 and then Goran then said that he didn't like men who

24 cried, and ordered him to start, to start off.

25 He evidently sensed what was going to happen,

Page 1136

1 so he begged him to leave him alive because he had a

2 small child at home, but Goran did not heed to that.

3 He took him the same way, round the corner here, in the

4 lane, and we heard the shot.

5 Q. Did you have to move some bodies that day?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Indeed, Jelisic had told you that you were, I

8 think, the strong one, had he not? That's why you

9 would be the last one left to be killed?

10 A. He said it right at the beginning.

11 Q. Did he ever repeat that about your being the

12 last one to be killed and the reason why you were being

13 kept?

14 A. Well, only when he picked out Suad to take

15 him down there. He said again, "Not you. I told you

16 that you would be the last one." He repeated it then.

17 Q. Tell us about the bodies you had to move,

18 where from, where to, and insofar as you can, when you

19 moved them.

20 A. First I took away the body of Amir Novalic,

21 Fric. It was in the building, in the SUP building, in

22 front of the reception office. He was lying there,

23 face down. He had a T-shirt. He had been shot in the

24 back of his head and blood was still coming from his

25 mouth and nose.

Page 1137

1 I was told to take him in front of the Radnik

2 cinema. It is between the Posavina Hotel and the

3 library. It was there, and we carried the body through

4 this park here [indicates].

5 When I saw that Amir's nose and mouth were

6 bleeding, I asked the soldier to turn him so that the

7 blood wouldn't be dripping on the floor, and then he

8 said to me, "Well, let the Turk wash the streets with

9 his blood," a soldier. I don't know who he was.

10 Then --

11 Q. ... when that soldier said that to you?

12 A. To tell you honestly, I did not notice him.

13 He must have been around -- I mean, he may have been

14 there but I just did not see him. I didn't notice him.

15 Q. ... the second body you had to move?

16 A. The second body was Sead Karagic's body. It

17 was also in the hall, and we took it to the same place

18 where we'd taken Amir. We left it there, and we then

19 were told to go to the third --

20 Q. Before you moved to the third body, with whom

21 did you move that body? Who else helped you?

22 A. Senad Muranjkic, called Pidza, and Admir

23 Tolkic helped me.

24 Q. Did one of them find the job too much to deal

25 with and get substituted by someone else?

Page 1138

1 A. It was Amir, little Amir, who asked for that

2 when we took the third body, when he saw that Sead had

3 been castrated, and he was sick. It was very hot, so

4 there were very many flies around Sead and he was sick,

5 and he asked to change places with me, not to have to

6 look at what they'd done to Sead.

7 The third body was behind the SUP building

8 near the Dzindzics' house, somewhere here in this

9 corner here [indicates]. You have to go between these

10 two buildings [indicates], that is SUP and this

11 building, that is, the former Agro Bank, and that is

12 where he was lying face down. He was shot with a

13 bullet at the back of his head.

14 Q. And you took these bodies across the street

15 and across the small park. What did you do with them?

16 Did you load them onto a vehicle?

17 A. The third, Hasan's body, we immediately

18 loaded onto the refrigerator, that is, belonging to

19 Bimeks in Brcko, because there was a very visible

20 emblem of the Red Cross, a big one covering the whole

21 door. This vehicle took that particular street and we

22 went through the park, and then we loaded Amir

23 Novalic's and Karadzic's bodies here to this

24 refrigerator, and then I saw Sead.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Before I turn very

Page 1139

1 briefly to the circumstances of your escape, just a few

2 matters of detail on the evidence you've already told

3 us. The mosque in which you were held, was that near

4 to the hospital?

5 A. Across the street from the hospital.

6 Q. When you were first kept in the mosque, what

7 did the soldiers say they were going to do to you?

8 A. I remember only one instance. A soldier, I

9 believe he was one of the White Eagles, he had been

10 wounded. He arrived there and he had an arm wound. He

11 asked for a petrol canister and fired five or six

12 bullets into the floor of the mosque and told us to set

13 fire to it. He said, "I'll set you on fire. Do you

14 see what you've done to me? You've wounded me in the

15 arm, and I will do the same as what you did in Foca."

16 Others only interrogated us, where we lived,

17 what party we belonged to, whether we were members of a

18 party, and things like that.

19 Q. On that, was there one senior officer who

20 appeared to be in charge at the mosque or possibly of

21 the whole area around the mosque? If so, what was his

22 name?

23 A. I don't know his name really, but he was very

24 handsome, dark-haired. He was a captain; he had three

25 stars.

Page 1140

1 Q. Did you --

2 A. He was a serious-minded man, and he had the

3 right to issue orders to all the soldiers around there,

4 at least that is how it seemed to me.

5 Q. You don't remember his name now. Do you

6 recall that you may have given a name to the

7 investigators when they took the statement from you?

8 A. I never knew that name, not even in the

9 mosque. Somebody may have heard his name and then put

10 that name instead of me, but I just don't know his

11 name. I only know that his superior was Mauzer for

12 that particular area, and I did not see Mauzer

13 personally.

14 Q. Thank you. When you saw Jelisic, did you see

15 him alone, or was he ever in the company either of men,

16 women, or girls? What about that?

17 A. The first time I saw him, he was in the

18 company of somebody his age, 23, 24, something like

19 that, a fair-haired guy, more or less the same height,

20 but then he disappeared. The next time, he was in the

21 company of girls, quite young, whom I didn't know.

22 Q. Were there any of the girls whose names you

23 did know?

24 A. Monika was the only one I knew (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1141

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 Q. Did you see anything of an injury on Jelisic?

5 A. Well, he personally -- not to me only, to

6 several other people, he showed me an injury here. He

7 said, "Look what --" I don't know somebody did this,

8 and he had a cut along the forearm. Whether on the

9 left or the right one, I really don't remember. It

10 wasn't a deep wound but some blood was oozing, and then

11 he had his arm bandaged.

12 Q. Dealing with your escape, was there a man

13 called Slobodan Mitric who you saw on the street and

14 whom you were able to speak to?

15 A. Well, when Goran took Suad Hadzic away, I was

16 left alone here in the street somewhere. Here

17 [indicating], I think I was here in front of the kiosk,

18 perhaps just slightly nearer than that.

19 I was so out of my wits that I never noticed

20 Slobodan Mitric's car pass by me and stop here by the

21 Posavina Hotel. He was talking to a soldier in a

22 camouflage uniform who was in front of the casino. It

23 was where the casino was. So they talked about

24 something, and I noticed his car. I knew he had a Lada

25 or a PZ, I don't know, but (redacted)

Page 1142

1 (redacted). And I asked Goran

2 Vidovic, who was --

3 Q. I'm going to cut you short because the detail

4 of this may not trouble the Chamber, and it's all in

5 your statement.

6 Were you able to contact Slobodan Mitric?

7 Was he able to have you given special treatment, and

8 eventually you were able to move from one camp to

9 another and eventually you were exchanged in September?

10 A. Yes, Slobodan Mitric came to me, came out of

11 his car, asked me what I was doing there, and he helped

12 me. He helped me. He got a pass for me. I went to

13 the SUP, and Goran went and he took me to the

14 barracks.

15 Q. Of all the men who had gone on the

16 street-cleaning exercise that day, how many went back

17 to the barracks?

18 A. That night, I was the only one who went back

19 and entered the barracks alone, and there were my

20 relatives and friends, and even Petar's brother, asking

21 me about the others. So evidently, nobody else had

22 come before me.

23 Q. I'm going to stop you there. You can give

24 the detail of all that to the Defence counsel, if they

25 wish it, or to the Court.

Page 1143

1 MR. NICE: I'm now going to turn to the

2 lists, if I may. Please may he have those lists. May

3 we go into private session for the reasons which the

4 Court is familiar. The public gallery is quite full, I

5 see, and they may need the position explained to them.

6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm going

7 to explain this to the public gallery because these are

8 theoretically always open sessions.

9 We are going to move into a private session

10 because the witness is an individual who is being

11 protected. As you may have noticed, his face does not

12 appear on the screen. The list of names that's going

13 to be mentioned now by the Prosecutor to the witness,

14 as regards certain points, might allow the witness's

15 identity to be known because he comes from a small

16 village and, therefore, showing his face might put into

17 question the protective measures that have been given

18 to him. For the time being, a list is going to be read

19 and it will be read in a private session.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Prosecutor. We're moving

21 into private session now.

22 Are we ready? Yes, we are.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1144

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 pages 1144-1150 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 1151

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We are once

12 again in a public session, and we can move to the

13 Defence for the cross-examination.

14 Mr. Greaves -- let's see. How long did the

15 direct-examination last, Mr. Registrar?

16 THE REGISTRAR: One hour and five minutes.

17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. Is

18 that about how long you're going to need for your

19 cross-examination, Mr. Greaves?

20 MR. GREAVES: I would anticipate so.

21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. We

22 will apply that time slot with flexibility, which is

23 what the Judges do. All right. Please proceed.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

25 Q. Mr. J, can I ask you please to help us about

Page 1152

1 this: The Prosecution has provided us with two

2 statements that you have made about these matters, one

3 of which you made to the authorities in

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the date has been -- is unclear

5 when it was that you made it. Can you help us, please,

6 as to which year in which you made it? The only dates

7 that we've got appear to be the 4th of October.

8 Did you make it shortly after you had been

9 released -- I'm sorry, exchanged?

10 A. I should say that I did not give anything by

11 way of a statement to the authorities of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They reconstructed the story on

13 the basis of the outline they made, without my

14 knowledge.

15 A neighbour of mine came to see me

16 afterwards. He was chief of a service that was in

17 charge of some kind of security or something in that

18 area, and he came to see me as a neighbour. He was a

19 neighbour. We grew up together. He only asked me what

20 had happened, to describe had happened to him [sic].

21 He was not alone. There were two men with

22 him, and I saw that there was a young man there taking

23 notes, but afterwards they turned that into a statement

24 and they let me read it.

25 After having read this statement, which

Page 1153

1 actually was not a statement, I saw that there were

2 many inaccurate words that I -- and even names that I

3 did not even mention.

4 When I suggested that this was inaccurate and

5 that it should be done differently, they said, "Well,

6 never mind. This is just an internal matter of our

7 own," and I personally never thought that there would

8 be some kind of a trial or something, so I just let it

9 be. They gave it to me and then I signed it.

10 I said immediately that I did not agree with

11 that statement at all because there are a lot of

12 inaccuracies in there. Also there are some names in

13 there and various expressions like "Serbo-Chetnik." I

14 never used expressions like that. I don't insult

15 people. But they put in certain words that I never

16 said and -- I don't know. They invented some events on

17 the basis my memories.

18 Q. That's very helpful. I'll come back to that

19 in a moment if I may, please, Mr. J, but can you tell

20 us approximately when this happened in relation to when

21 you were exchanged?

22 A. Well, it happened very soon after I was

23 exchanged. Possibly it was in October, because I was

24 exchanged on the 8th of September. I was in Tuzla for

25 some time because my wife and my parents were there,

Page 1154

1 and I brought them closer. Then they heard that I was

2 in this territory and then they came to see me. That's

3 when I just told my story. I did not make a

4 statement. On the basis of this story of mine, they

5 wrote this statement with which I disagree in many

6 points.

7 Q. So let me just clarify this. You were

8 visited on two occasions by some people. Do you know

9 whom they represented? Did they represent an official

10 body of any kind?

11 A. Well, a security service that had just been

12 set up, because I wasn't really involved in who was

13 doing what at the time, because I was very nervous at

14 the time and I was ill. I had headaches frequently at

15 the time, probably because of the draft in Batkovici.

16 Q. This man approached you and asked you to tell

17 him what had happen. Did he make notes of what you

18 told him?

19 A. He came to my home, this neighbour of mine

20 did, he's a childhood friend, together with two young

21 men whom I did not know. One of those two young men

22 was taking notes. He had some kind of an outline

23 there. Then they probably reconstructed this story

24 which they call a statement.

25 Q. On the second occasion you actually read the

Page 1155

1 statement that had been prepared, and although it

2 contained errors, you signed it after their explanation

3 was given to you?

4 A. There was a war going on. There was shooting

5 all over the place. When I was passing there, there

6 was shooting at the front line and they called out to

7 me. They knocked at the window of their official

8 premises and they asked me to come in.

9 When I said that this was not exactly the way

10 it had happened -- it's not that all of it is untrue,

11 there are quite a few things that are true, but then

12 there are some expressions I never use. They said,

13 "Well, never mind. We just need this for our

14 archives, just so that we'd know what had happened." I

15 signed this very quickly in order to get home as soon

16 as possible. After all, I never saw that statement

17 again.

18 Q. Did you make it absolutely clear to the

19 people who came to you and asked you to sign it that it

20 contained things which were either inaccurate or

21 untrue? Did you make that absolutely plain to them?

22 A. I said it loud and clear and they accepted

23 that there probably were some inaccuracies, but then

24 there wasn't enough paper, and there was a war going

25 on, and it can't be retyped. Again, there weren't any

Page 1156

1 typewriters. After all, we had fled from Brcko to that

2 territory. In that way they refused to retype this

3 again and to change anything in this statement.

4 That is what the times were like. I didn't

5 really think about it, that anybody would ever use it

6 for such purposes.

7 Q. All right. Mr. J, I'd like just now to ask

8 some quick questions about you personally.

9 In 1995, it's right, isn't it, that you were

10 in the service of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army? Do you

11 still remain in that occupation?

12 A. I was in the army until 1995, until April

13 1995. Since then I haven't. I started doing my own

14 work.

15 Q. I don't want to know what you're doing now or

16 anything about your present circumstances, Mr. J.

17 Please understand that.

18 Before the war did you personally take part

19 in political activity, whether as a member of a

20 political party or not?

21 A. I was not active. I was a member of the SDP,

22 the Social Democratic Party, that grew out of the

23 former communist party. Actively I did not take part

24 in any party because, before the war I was building a

25 house and I didn't feel like going into any kind of

Page 1157

1 politics.

2 Q. Do you remain a member of the SDP?

3 A. Yes, throughout the war until the present

4 day. Now I'm a bit more active as a social democrat.

5 Q. Thank you. I'd like to turn, please, to your

6 detention at the mosque. Is this correct: that when

7 you were detained and taken to the mosque, you were

8 taken with some 20 to 30 other people? Were you all of

9 them men?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And such women and children who had been

12 collected, were they -- I think this is the 4th of

13 May. Were women and children taken to somebody's

14 private residence opposite or near to the mosque?

15 A. Across the square from the other mosque, the

16 white mosque, Biljel Dzamija, which is 500 or 600

17 metres away from the place where they divided us up,

18 because in Brcko there were three mosques in town.

19 This other mosque Bijela Dzamija, the white mosque, was

20 across the street from Dr. Zelenjakovic's house, and

21 since he had a big basement, that's where we put the

22 women and children.

23 Q. Was that used temporarily as a safe place for

24 them to be?

25 A. I don't think it was a shelter, because they

Page 1158

1 were shooting in high-rises, and women and children

2 came to that house -- actually, the basement was the

3 safest place, and nobody should have kicked us out of

4 there.

5 Q. Thank you. Could I move now please to your

6 arrival at the mosque? Is this right: that there were

7 already other people there when you arrived?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Again, were they all men?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Concerning the group with whom you were

12 brought and that group, were they men between the ages

13 of 18 and 60?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Subsequently, is it right that further

16 people, further men, again also between the ages of 18

17 and 60, were brought to the mosque?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did that end up with about 200 people being

20 detained at the mosque by the time that night came

21 around?

22 A. Approximately about 200. I wasn't counting.

23 There were so many of us that we couldn't move our

24 hands at a given moment.

25 Q. I understand that and thank you for the

Page 1159

1 approximate figure, Mr. J.

2 The women and children who had been taken to

3 the private residence, were they subsequently taken to

4 the army barracks?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And subsequently were they also transferred

7 to some other location outside Brcko?

8 A. My family was taken to Bjeljina where they

9 spent a few hours, and then they were returned to

10 Brezovo Polje.

11 Q. I want to ask you please if you can help us

12 about this: As far as interrogations which were

13 conducted at the mosque, were those conducted by the

14 soldiers who were guarding you?

15 A. The man who was in charge of interrogations

16 was a good looking policeman. He was probably an

17 inspector in the Bjeljina SUP, and he was really in

18 charge of the interrogations.

19 From time to time we were questioned by

20 soldiers too, but that was informal. Officially we

21 were interrogated by a policeman, actually, an

22 inspector in a police uniform, from Bjeljina. That's

23 the way he introduced himself at least.

24 Q. Is it correct, Mr. J, that during the course

25 of the interrogations, the questions were obviously

Page 1160

1 personal details, but also as to individual people's

2 political -- party political affiliation?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. For example, such as yourself, a member of

5 the former Communist Party, later the Social Democratic

6 Party, were there people who were members of the

7 various political parties, the SDA, and the SDP, and so

8 on?

9 A. Certainly.

10 Q. It's right, isn't it, that those who admitted

11 to being members of the SDA were singled out and were

12 taken and beaten?

13 A. They thought that they would be saved

14 because -- if they would say that he were in the SDA,

15 because they were in power in Brcko because there was a

16 coalition between the SDA and the SDS. They thought

17 that it would be an advantage to be a member of the

18 SDA. At least that's the way it should have been,

19 because they were in a coalition with the SDS, and that

20 is how they were fully in control of the government in

21 Brcko before the war broke out.

22 Q. I understand all that, but can you help us,

23 please? Regardless of what the background was, is it

24 right that those who acknowledged being members of the

25 SDA were singled out for beatings?

Page 1161

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I'd like you to help us explain something

3 which you told the Office of the Prosecutor -- I'm

4 sorry.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please

7 continue.

8 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your

9 Honour.

10 Q. Mr. J, I want to ask you about a phrase which

11 you have used in the statement that you made to the

12 Office of the Prosecutor so that you can explain what

13 it means to us, please.

14 In connection with the interrogations of

15 prisoners, you say this:

16 "The suspicious prisoners were taken from

17 the mosque and interrogated in another location."

18 Can you help us, please, as to what you mean

19 by the "suspicious prisoners"? Do you mean by that,

20 people suspected of some crime or some activity?

21 A. We didn't have any time to commit a crime.

22 The crime was belonging to the SDA party.

23 Q. Thank you. I think, and I won't deal with

24 them again during the course of going through the list

25 of people that you were asked about, but you spoke at

Page 1162

1 one stage during that list about the Terzic cousins or

2 Terzic brothers. Were you aware of them being at the

3 mosque?

4 A. Certainly. (redacted),

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted). They were together in the mosque, and I

7 saw them.

8 Q. Is this correct: that they were accused of

9 having weapons and ammunition, but they were returned

10 to the mosque after being interrogated?

11 A. The weapons they had were a two-barrelled

12 hunting gun and a hunting sniper, and naturally, they

13 had valid permits issued by the authorities for having

14 hunting weapons and also a certain amount of ammunition

15 that is used for these hunting weapons. Those are all

16 the weapons they had.

17 Q. In addition to that, did you, in fact, see

18 someone being beaten in the mosque who had been accused

19 of being a sniper?

20 A. A sniper? We were all suspected. Even I was

21 suspected of being a sniper because I went out in

22 slippers, and they said that all snipers had slippers,

23 and of course I wore slippers because I was taken out

24 of my home. One man was beaten up because they found a

25 radio transmitter on him, and this man was a radio

Page 1163

1 amateur and it was only natural that he would have a

2 transmitter at home, and he used it in order to

3 establish contact with other radio amateurs.

4 Q. Mr. J, can I just ask you this: Would this

5 be a fair description of the attitude of those who were

6 detaining you, interrogating you, and suspecting you of

7 being a sniper: that there was in the atmosphere at

8 the time a very high degree of paranoia and fear,

9 whether justified or not, about the activities of

10 people who had been detained?

11 A. Is that a question?

12 Q. I'll put it again to you, Mr. J. As far as

13 the people who were detaining you were concerned and

14 the ones who were responsible for interrogating you and

15 other prisoners, is this right: that amongst those

16 people, there was an atmosphere of hysteria and

17 paranoia about snipers and so forth?

18 A. As for this young man, who I said was from

19 Bijeljina, he was fair. You could see that he was

20 intelligent, and he carefully selected men who were a

21 bit more useful to him by way of giving information;

22 whereas the others were very haughty, and they wanted

23 to learn things from other people in other ways as to

24 who belonged to a party or whatever. But this man from

25 Bijeljina, he was not paranoid. He was a fair person

Page 1164

1 and he was a calm person.

2 Q. Does that apply to everybody or is it the

3 case that others were not as calm as this man?

4 A. I already said it. He was the only one who

5 was calm. Others brimmed with hatred as they came to

6 see us, as if we'd committed the worst of crimes, even

7 though we were the victims, and yet they posed as if

8 they were the victims and had suffered something, even

9 though we were their detainees whom they had dragged

10 out of our own homes.

11 Q. Can I just ask you briefly about your stay at

12 the army barracks? Did you know the name of the

13 commander at those barracks?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us who it was, please?

16 A. Pavle Milinkovic.

17 Q. Next can I turn, please, to the time when you

18 were at the SUP building? Is this correct: that when

19 you were there, there was a short period outside the

20 building when you were interrogated by a police

21 officer?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is this also right: that the subject of that

24 interrogation was, as far as you were concerned, who

25 you had voted for and your party membership before the

Page 1165

1 war?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And were you also questioned about the SDA?

4 A. Well, I wasn't, only about ZNGs, Young

5 Muslims, what party I belonged to, those sort of

6 questions.

7 Q. ZNGs, I think that is not an organisation

8 we've heard about in this case. Can you just explain

9 to us who the ZNGs were?

10 A. Those were Croatian units. It was called

11 Narodna Garda, that is, National Guards, and they were

12 active in Croatia. Presumably, they thought they were

13 also active in our area, but I had no knowledge of

14 that, and I don't think they were. There may have been

15 some small groups but not as an organised army.

16 Q. When you were taken inside the building and

17 before, as it were, the commotion started, had you been

18 requestioned by some soldiers?

19 A. When I entered the SUP building, they took us

20 into the hallway. We were going in one line and we

21 were following one another, and I was the first one, it

22 just happened so, so I was sent to the last room as you

23 enter the hall. They put me between two tables and

24 told me to tell them again what I already said

25 outside. One of them even put his automatic rifle next

Page 1166

1 to me, presumably trying to tempt me to try to grab it

2 or something. But that interrogation was very short,

3 not more than a minute or two, because immediately

4 after that, we heard gunfire outside. At that time, I

5 didn't know where it was coming from and what it was

6 due to.

7 Q. So that it's clear, you were asked to go over

8 the subjects you'd already been asked about outside,

9 about which you've just told us?

10 A. Well, even outside, I said nothing to Goran.

11 I said again that I knew nothing, that I was a member

12 of the Social Democratic Party. About 500 or 600

13 metres away from the place where they interrogated me,

14 there was an SDP office, and there he could ascertain

15 that my card was there and that I signed my application

16 for membership that April, April 1992, for the SDP.

17 These archives are in existence.

18 Q. Can you just help us about one detail,

19 please, concerning the man Amir Novalic? I think he

20 had a nickname. Can you tell us what that was?

21 A. Fric. He was fair-haired. He had fair hair,

22 so this was an association with the Germans, and that's

23 why they called him Fric.

24 Q. Is it within your knowledge that he had been

25 not just a member of the SDA but had been active within

Page 1167

1 the SDA?

2 A. Well, I heard that he was a member, but I did

3 not really pay much attention to that because I was not

4 interested in the SDA, and I didn't want to know how

5 active somebody was in any other party. All I was

6 interested in was what people did in my party, in the

7 SDP.

8 Q. Mr. J, I want to turn now, please, to your

9 brief detention at Luka facility. Is this right: that

10 that was on the 8th of May?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you were transferred there from the

13 cinema hall at the barracks. Can you tell us at what

14 time that was?

15 A. I know it was around noon sometime.

16 Q. How long in all did you spend at the Luka

17 facility before you were released from there?

18 A. Well, it could have been an hour or so. I

19 didn't have a watch with me, nor did I think about time

20 much. I wasn't really interested in time, there was

21 general confusion and fear, but it could have been

22 around one hour.

23 Q. To describe what you saw at Luka, would this

24 phrase be right: "utter chaos"?

25 A. Yes, you could say that.

Page 1168

1 Q. People were being brought into the camp;

2 people were being released.

3 A. Yes, straightaway. They were brought in by

4 buses. There were some local Serb policemen who

5 recognised their friends and their neighbours or even

6 relatives, because there were quite a number of mixed

7 marriages in Brcko, so these people were issued passes

8 straightaway to go back home, and others were kept.

9 Q. Just help me about this, please, Mr. J: Were

10 you kept outside the buildings at the facility or were

11 you placed inside a building during your period at the

12 camp, at Luka?

13 A. I was outside.

14 Q. You understand what I mean by the phrase "the

15 hangars" as being the storage depots at Luka? Do you

16 understand that?

17 A. Yes, sure, but I was outside, in front.

18 Q. I understand that, Mr. J. I just want to

19 establish precisely where you were. There were,

20 opposite the hangars, a series of administration

21 offices. Were you outside the hangars between those

22 two sets of buildings and the roadway?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And were you able to see all the people who

25 were coming and going, passing and repassing that area?

Page 1169

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You've described people being brought in in

3 buses. Was that the only way in which people were

4 being brought in?

5 A. I don't know that because I was there only a

6 short time, and Slobodan came immediately, saw me

7 there, and took me back to the barracks. How they

8 arrived later, I just don't know.

9 Q. I understand that. I was asking only about

10 the period you were there.

11 In terms of numbers, Mr. J, are you able to

12 estimate how many people you saw, as it were, at the

13 camp, detainees?

14 A. Well, there could have been over 200, 300, or

15 thereabouts. That would be the number of people I saw

16 there.

17 Q. And of those people, could you give us an

18 estimate, please, of what percentage, what proportion

19 were released?

20 A. Some 10 per cent or thereabouts, but I

21 deduced that from things that happened later. Because

22 at that particular moment, of course, I could not see

23 anything because I was there only a short time.

24 Q. I want just to return, very briefly, to

25 the -- and I call it a statement for the sake of

Page 1170

1 convenience -- the account you gave and signed to the

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina Security Authority, Mr. J.

3 Would you accept that in that account, which

4 you signed, you did not make any mention of Goran

5 Jelisic making people sing Serbian songs?

6 A. Well, at the time, perhaps the one who was

7 taking those notes down did not think it interesting

8 and simply failed to note it down.

9 Q. I understand that. Nor did you make mention

10 there of the name "Adolf" or of the man Adolf saying

11 that you would be the last one to be killed or anything

12 like that?

13 A. Well, I can only give you the same answer as

14 before, that that fellow could not remember all that I

15 was telling him. I already told you that I wasn't

16 giving a statement. I just gave him some outlines, and

17 he was writing down my account. Of course, he couldn't

18 memorise all that I'd said.

19 Q. I'd like to turn, please, with you, Mr. J, in

20 a little more detail, to the lists of people which you

21 were asked to go through and see if you can assist us

22 with any more information about them.

23 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps we can go into private

24 session, as is the usual way. I'm sorry. There's one

25 matter before we go into private session. I do

Page 1171

1 apologise. I'm sorry, Your Honour. It's my fault. I

2 missed the note on the other page.

3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Proceed.

4 MR. GREAVES:

5 Q. Mr. J, I just want to ask you one final thing

6 about Luka and your release. Were you issued with a

7 pass?

8 A. Somebody wrote it for me. It was Slobodan

9 who did it on my behalf. I never even saw that pass.

10 He just took it, put it in the glove compartment of his

11 car, and came to fetch me.

12 Q. Subsequently, were you given the pass out of

13 the glove compartment, or were you never given it?

14 A. No, I never saw it again.

15 Q. So although it was issued, it never

16 physically came into your possession?

17 A. I did not need it because I was not

18 released. I was again detained in the barracks, and it

19 only served for going from Luka to the barracks, and

20 then it was not valid any more.

21 Q. Just briefly, one last question about the

22 passes. Do you know who were issuing the passes at

23 Luka?

24 A. I already said it. Mitric did all that had

25 to be done for me, for my sake. I heard that it was

Page 1172

1 Jelisic who was signing them, but I only heard that. I

2 never saw a single pass. Whether that was true or not,

3 I simply do not know because I just have no knowledge

4 of that.

5 Q. Right.

6 MR. GREAVES: May we go into private session,

7 please.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1173

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 pages 1173-1186 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 1187

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now

15 resume the hearing. Please be seated.

16 Have the accused brought in, Mr. Registrar.

17 [The accused entered court]

18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can

19 continue. I hope that all of the interpreters are

20 ready and have rested a little bit. Fine. Very well.

21 Witness J, this is almost the end of this

22 testimony. If you agree, perhaps now the Prosecutor

23 who is going to conduct the re-examination, perhaps

24 Mr. Nice has a few things he'd like to add.

25 MR. NICE: Two very short topics. The first

Page 1188

1 one should probably be in private session. It's about

2 a name on the list.

3 THE REGISTRAR: This is open session.

4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No, we want to

5 be in private session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1189

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 MR. NICE:

7 Q. You've been asked about political parties.

8 You said you were a member of the Social Democratic

9 Party, and it was suggested that there was another

10 party called the SDA. Is it right that you were a

11 member of a party different from the SDA?

12 A. Completely different.

13 Q. Was your party of single ethnicity or of

14 multi-ethnicity in its composition?

15 A. Multi-ethnicity.

16 Q. What about the SDA? Was there any ethnic

17 limitation on that party?

18 A. It defined itself as a party of citizens, but

19 as far as I know, it is uni-national.

20 Q. Composed of what ethnic group?

21 A. Muslims, Bosniaks.

22 Q. So whenever someone was identified as of the

23 SDA, was the person being identified Muslim or Bosniak?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. NICE: That concludes my re-examination.

Page 1190

1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Witness J, the Judges have a few questions to

3 ask you. Let me give the floor immediately to Judge

4 Riad.

5 Judge Riad, please proceed.

6 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr.

7 President.

8 Questioned by the Court:

9 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Witness J. I

10 just have a few clarifications to get from you, if you

11 can.

12 I gathered, especially from your answer to

13 the Defence counsel, that members of the SDA were

14 particularly selected for beating, torture, and

15 eventually killing. Was this exclusive to them? Were

16 they the only people who would undergo this procedure,

17 this beating and torture, or was it a general

18 procedure, and towards whom?

19 A. In my opinion, it was a general procedure,

20 regardless of party affiliation. Naturally, members of

21 the SDA party were singled out, to a greater extent.

22 JUDGE RIAD: And why? Was it because they

23 were important, they had a social status in the

24 community, they were leaders?

25 A. It was considered, or they probably

Page 1191

1 considered that members of the SDA party influenced the

2 people in order to vote for secession from the former

3 Yugoslavia, for their independence.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Were there other people selected

5 for this beating, that were chosen first among the

6 community? Was there a selection?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE RIAD: Who was it?

9 A. Well, most probably, local Serbs, persons who

10 lived in Brcko gave certain qualifications to the

11 persons who did that; that is to say, who were in

12 charge of beatings. They received information from the

13 local Serbs that such and such a person is, for

14 example, a prominent SDA member or held some important

15 post or something, and then that person would be the

16 first to be beaten up or killed.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Did this apply to religious

18 leaders too?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE RIAD: In general, was there a

21 religious discrimination? Was it only focused on

22 Muslims, or Muslims and Croats?

23 A. There were far less Croats in Brcko anyway.

24 They were beaten up too, but there were less of them

25 because, in the structure of the population, they

Page 1192

1 figured less prominently; therefore, less Croats were

2 beaten up than the Muslims because the Muslims were the

3 majority population in the town of Brcko.

4 JUDGE RIAD: What about those who were not

5 Muslims or Croats?

6 A. If they were not on the side of the SDS or in

7 favour of their policy of ethnic cleansing, then they

8 were treated the same way.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Even if they were Serbs?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned that certain

12 people, you gave us names, were released from detention

13 and then killed at their home. What was the purpose of

14 this procedure, to release someone and then kill him?

15 Were they killed by other people, by the mob, or were

16 they killed by the same people who took them to gaol,

17 if you know?

18 A. I think they were different people.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Who they are, you don't know?

20 A. From what I know, it was a group around that

21 Kosta from Modrane, I don't know his last name, the one

22 who came to the mosque and to the barracks. That is

23 from what I know.

24 JUDGE RIAD: And that group was military,

25 paramilitary? What was this group?

Page 1193

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is sorry,

2 but we couldn't hear the witness's answer.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Can you repeat the answer? What

4 was that group?

5 A. Those were groups or -- say, a man organises

6 his military group, picks out 100 extremists or so,

7 such as the White Eagles, for instance, the Wolves, and

8 the like of that. They were paramilitaries. They did

9 not belong to any regular army. There was no regular

10 army because the JNA was not a regular army anymore.

11 Yugoslavia had fallen apart at that time;

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina was independent. All the other

13 troops which appeared there were not regular troops.

14 JUDGE RIAD: Was there something which united

15 all these divisions? Was it complete chaos or was

16 there some kind of organisation between them, one

17 purpose, a coordination towards one purpose?

18 A. The groups came to Brcko to provoke chaos.

19 They did have a common leader somewhere above who was

20 not in Brcko, and in Brcko, they were sent there in

21 order to sow fear, to cause panic, to cause chaos, to

22 dislocate as many people as possible, to kill people.

23 In Brcko, I mean, at first glance, they all looked very

24 disorganised, but they all pursued the same goal, to

25 drive away as many Muslims from Brcko as possible.

Page 1194

1 JUDGE RIAD: Was the accused, Jelisic, more

2 or less among the leaders of these groups?

3 A. I saw Jelisic only on the 7th of May. After

4 that, I only heard about him, and he looked -- like

5 from the place where I was, he looked like somebody who

6 had an absolute power.

7 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you very

8 much.

9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

10 Judge Riad. Judge Rodrigues.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

12 Mr. President.

13 Witness J, I have a few question. My first

14 is the following: At that time, that is, during the

15 events in Luka, were the Muslims and Croats adversaries

16 or allies in the conflict.

17 A. Neither adversaries or allies. They were

18 citizens who had been driven away from their homes and,

19 therefore, had been struck by the same ill-fortune,

20 nothing else.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My second

22 question is that we have heard about the fact that

23 people who were taken aside and beaten were beaten and

24 put aside because they were members of a political

25 party. We have also heard that the SDA had a

Page 1195

1 unilateral or one ethnic group that made it up.

2 Did they choose people who belonged to --

3 people who were members of the SDA -- when they chose

4 people who were in the SDA, did that mean that they

5 were choosing Muslims? Is it the same thing?

6 A. That was only a motive behind it more if you

7 were a SDA member, but other members -- other people of

8 Muslim ethnicity did not fare better either.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My third

10 question: Belonging to a political party was a reason

11 that had been mentioned, and being a sniper was another

12 reason given. Having weapons, even with a permit, was

13 yet another reason mentioned.

14 When faced with all of these reasons, was

15 that a real confirmation of that reason or was it only

16 a virtual reason?

17 A. Well, those, yes, were propounded as the main

18 reasons, but the main objective was to terrorise

19 people, to sow terror, to make people feel unsafe,

20 insecure. Seven years after I was driven away from

21 Brcko, I still have no urge to go back to my native

22 town because of the bad memories. I still haven't gone

23 back to my native town.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let's go

25 back to the mosque. You spoke about the separation of

Page 1196

1 men, women, and children. Were the women and children

2 in another location? Does that mean that being at

3 another location, rather, a location other than the

4 mosque, does that mean that they were safer, that the

5 women and children were safer, or was there yet another

6 reason?

7 A. I explained it once already. Those people

8 would have been safest at home in their cellars,

9 because the cellar was a separate place under the

10 ground and protected against shells and bullets, as

11 that particular locality was shelled. But when we were

12 driven out, there was street fighting still going on

13 where they were shooting at random just to sow fear

14 among people.

15 That was only a temporary station, because

16 they stayed for a very short time in that house, and it

17 was said, "You're not safe here. Let's go to the

18 barracks." Then after the barracks, an hour or two

19 later, "Let's go to Brezovo Polje because there are

20 women and children," and under the pretext of security

21 they simply took them out, away from the place where

22 they used to live.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You also

24 spoke about a captain who was more or less the person

25 who was responsible for the mosque. Did that person

Page 1197

1 say anything to you? Did he make a speech to you

2 explaining the reasons why you were there, or did he

3 not say anything?

4 A. I remember his speech, which sounded like a

5 school lesson. That's how it sounded to me. He was a

6 member of the JNA. He was a Captain, and he was in a

7 JNA uniform, and all the insignia were JNA insignia,

8 from the flag to the rank insignia.

9 He was very -- his attitude was very correct;

10 that is, did he not abuse us in any way. He did not

11 say anything bad. He said something along the lines of

12 this really shouldn't have happened, but we the Muslims

13 were responsible for Bosnia-Herzegovina separating from

14 Yugoslavia, that it should have stayed together.

15 Something like that. It was a kind of a lecture to

16 somehow make us -- to bring it home to us that we were

17 responsible for things that were going on.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another

19 question: In respect of your description of Luka, you

20 said that in the confusion and chaos there were

21 individuals who were released and who were guarded. Do

22 you know whether there was a criterion for making that

23 separation? How were the people selected to be

24 released or to be kept?

25 Could you say whether there was any type of

Page 1198

1 criterion for choosing those who would be released and

2 those who would be kept?

3 A. Well, I suppose it was when Goran was not

4 somewhere around. So if a neighbour knew you well; or

5 was a friend; or if your best man was a Serb; for

6 instance, my best man was a Serb; then we simply single

7 him out and quickly issue him with a pass and do that.

8 If Goran was there, then presumably on the

9 basis of some references given by people who used to

10 work for the SUP before and who perhaps said, "Well,

11 listen, let this one go, he's quite all right," or

12 something like that, but very few people were

13 released.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Was there

15 any type of list which listed the names of the people

16 who were to be killed?

17 A. I heard about those lists, but I never saw

18 them, nor do I know anything more about that. I've

19 only heard that there were lists on the basis of which

20 one could know exactly who was to be killed and who was

21 not to be killed.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] At the

23 request of Mr. Greaves, you calculated that the

24 percentage of those people who had been released was

25 about ten per cent. Did you hear anything about a

Page 1199

1 percentage that was acceptable to indicate the number

2 of Muslims who were to be kept there, to remain?

3 A. While I was detained in the barracks, a

4 friend of mine, that is, a pre-war friend, a Serb, he

5 was a member of some troops, I don't know which, and we

6 talked while I was in the barracks, and he said that

7 they were working on it, working on finding some pass

8 or some permit for me to help me escape, that is, to

9 get across the border of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to go

10 abroad, because he said, "There's no remaining here."

11 The plan was to keep, whether in

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina or Brcko, to only have 20 or 30 per

13 cent of Muslims left here and the rest to deport, to

14 dislocate. That was something that he told me on that

15 occasion, but where did he get that knowledge from, I

16 don't know.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said

18 that "he" planned it. Do you know who planned it?

19 A. Well, it was planned by the one who wanted to

20 bring about -- who wanted to bring about what happened

21 later, that is, the ethnic cleansing of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the partition of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

25 Witness J. I have no further questions.

Page 1200

1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I will not ask

2 you any questions. All of this has been long for you.

3 I see that the Prosecutor is standing, and I should

4 have asked you to sit down, Mr. Nice. Do you have a

5 question or --

6 All right. The Tribunal asks you very warmly

7 and expresses all of its gratitude to you for showing

8 the courage to come to the Hague, to live again all of

9 these tragic memories which marked your existence

10 during that period.

11 Please do not move. We're going to lower the

12 blinds, and then the Victims and Witnesses Section will

13 take charge of you. We wish you Godspeed back home.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] If Mr. Nice or

17 Mr. Tochilovsky would please bring in the next

18 witness. One of you could take him out, then that

19 would have to avoid lowering and raising the blinds

20 constantly.

21 MR. NICE: Before the next witness comes in,

22 there are two little short matters that I should raise,

23 and perhaps they could both be dealt with either in

24 closed session or private session. They relate to the

25 next witness whose summary you should, I think, already

Page 1201

1 have.

2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I don't have

3 any summaries here. Judge Riad doesn't, nor does Judge

4 Rodrigues. Oh, yes, now we do. You're talking about

5 Witness K.

6 MR. NICE: Indeed. Witness K, seeks

7 protection of the same type that others have sought,

8 but the first topic I raise relates to her seeking to

9 have present in court a woman whose presence will be of

10 some support and comfort to her, given the particular

11 problems she has faced since the events of which she's

12 going to speak.

13 The account she gives, which is summarised,

14 is an account of incarceration at Luka, where she was

15 repeatedly raped and where she saw the most awful

16 things happening, and that has affected her since to

17 the extent that she has required support in the years

18 that have followed, has benefited from that support and

19 benefits from it still.

20 The group that supports her has sent a

21 representative with her -- oh, it's not private.

22 Sorry.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1202

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 pages 1202-1211 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 1212

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness K,

5 thank you for having come. Please remain standing.

6 First, we are going to ask you to identify

7 your name on a piece of paper which is being given to

8 you, but please do not say your name. Simply check to

9 see that that, in fact, is your name. Don't state your

10 name, please. Is that your name? Don't say it; just

11 tell me whether it is. Is that your name?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You are going

14 to take an oath now, which the usher is going to give

15 you. Please read this.

16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

17 speak the truth, the whole ...

18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

19 seated. Please be seated. Please be seated.

20 Usher, give the witness a glass of water.

21 Try to get a hold of yourself, please, Madam. Take

22 your time.

23 Can we ask the individual who is working with

24 the woman to sit next to her? I think that would be

25 better.

Page 1213

1 Could you please read the oath now? Please.

2 You'll manage. You'll manage.

3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

5 truth.

6 WITNESS: WITNESS K

7 [Witness answers through interpreter]

8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] There you are.

9 You were able to do it. Very good.

10 Whenever you need a break, at any point,

11 simply ask us and we will grant the amount of time you

12 need to rest. Please speak calmly. I know you can't

13 be serene; don't even try to be. You are before Judges

14 and you have nothing to fear. Try. If you don't feel

15 good, you have this woman next to you whom you asked to

16 have with you, and you will see that, working together,

17 we'll all get where we need to go.

18 First of all, you're going to be asked

19 questions by the Prosecutor, then by the Defence, and

20 then finally by the Judges. Probably we will not

21 finish this evening, and you will have to come back

22 tomorrow, but that will also give you some time to

23 rest.

24 Mr. Nice, with all the sensitivity that you

25 can show, I know that you are now going to ask the

Page 1214

1 questions that you have to ask.

2 Examined by Mr. Nice:

3 Q. Witness K, we call you Witness K in this

4 trial in order to preserve your anonymity. It seems a

5 bit strange but don't worry about that.

6 In fact, you speak pretty good English, but

7 we will have to find out as we go along whether it is

8 going to be better for you to speak in English or to

9 speak in your own language. Some of the Judges don't

10 speak English, so it's all a bit of a muddle here, and

11 we'll just see how we go.

12 To begin with, I'm going to ask you a few

13 questions in English which you can just deal with by

14 yes or no answers, and then we will see where we go

15 from there.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Nice, all the Judges speak

17 English.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I understand that

19 that is the case, but what I was trying to say, rather

20 diffidently, was that sometimes where people from

21 different nationalities are bringing their different

22 English skills together, it is sometimes more difficult

23 to use English and easier to use translation. But I

24 only wish I could -- no, I won't go into that.

25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

Page 1215

1 Judge Riad.

2 You see, Witness K, we're saying this in

3 order to try to help you to relax a little bit.

4 Thank you, Judge Riad, and thank you for the

5 kind words that you've said about my English.

6 MR. NICE:

7 Q. Witness K, I think there's been what's called

8 a summary of your evidence prepared, and I think you

9 had a chance to look at it last night; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That summary, which we will get a copy of for

12 you in a minute, was that summary accurate?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I don't know where it is at the moment, but

15 we'll put it before you in a minute. Now, you were

16 trained as a midwife, I think, for several years. How

17 long did it take to become a midwife?

18 A. Four years.

19 Q. Four years. After that, you worked in the

20 hospital in Brcko as a midwife and had done that for

21 several years. How many years had you been a midwife?

22 A. Since 1979.

23 Q. Here comes the summary. Just have a quick

24 look at this; you don't need to look at it in detail.

25 Is this the summary that you looked at yesterday and

Page 1216

1 that you found to be accurate?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Right. Thanks very much. Now, having been a

4 midwife for 12 years or thereabouts --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- were you on duty, working at the hospital

7 on the day that the bridges were blown up?

8 A. Yes. I went at 7.00 morning to work that

9 day, the 1st of May, with my husband, to our duty.

10 Q. Yes. You started at 7.00 that morning, the

11 bridges were blown up --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- and then did the next duty of nurses turn

14 up or were there a lot of absentees?

15 A. Many people were absent from work. They

16 didn't show up.

17 Q. Yes. Did you stay on duty? Because if you

18 hadn't stayed on duty, there would have been nobody to

19 look after the babies.

20 A. Yes, I did. I could not leave the new babies

21 there. They were fresh.

22 Q. Did you stay on duty all night?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Then was it the next day that all the

25 patients were moved down into the basement of the

Page 1217

1 hospital?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That hospital, we can look at it on the map

4 if it's necessary, but we've heard of a hospital that

5 is immediately opposite the mosque. Is this hospital

6 immediately opposite a mosque?

7 A. Across from the mosque was the community

8 health centre, and then across there, yes.

9 Q. Right. Thank you. A little problem is that,

10 as you know, people have to record what we're all

11 saying, and one or two of them are having a tiny bit of

12 difficulty. If you can speak a bit louder, do;

13 otherwise, maybe we can move the microphones a bit

14 closer. See if you can speak up just a touch.

15 What was the date, so far as you can recall

16 it, of the patients all being moved down to the

17 basement?

18 A. I think the 2nd. It's very hard for me to

19 understand exactly the date, because I was -- I didn't

20 have enough sleep. I was tired.

21 Q. But you think it was the 2nd?

22 A. The 2nd. For that, yeah, but I think the

23 2nd, it was.

24 Q. It's not that important, so don't worry. I

25 think then or on the following day, the 3rd, explosions

Page 1218

1 seemed to be getting louder and closer, and you started

2 to receive wounded people in the hospital who were

3 suffering from firearms injuries; is that right? Just

4 yes or no will do.

5 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. And then you and the remaining medical staff

7 did as well as you could for the people who were coming

8 in and, indeed, for the women and the babies who were

9 already there. I think that's right, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The next thing that happened -- if you can

12 estimate the day, do so, but if you can't it doesn't

13 mater. Is it the next thing that happened is that you

14 became aware of Serb soldiers?

15 A. The patient was arrived which were wounded.

16 They will tell us, you know, what they saw to the

17 town.

18 Q. Yes, but did you actually see Serb soldiers

19 in the hospital at one stage?

20 A. No. Until they come do occupy, the Serbs.

21 Q. What is the day that they occupied, the

22 Serbs, roughly?

23 A. 3rd or 4th.

24 Q. Did they completely occupy the hospital? We

25 don't need to deal with this in detail, but just tell

Page 1219

1 us, did they completely occupy the hospital?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did they have uniforms?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did they have painted faces, some of them?

6 A. Yes, all of them. All of them.

7 Q. Yes. Did you get the name of the soldier who

8 appeared to be in charge of all these soldiers?

9 A. Dusko Tadic, because he was working in the

10 hospital as a guardian. Yes.

11 Q. Yes. But what was the name of the Serb

12 soldier, the Serb boss soldier?

13 A. With him, he was -- the name was from the

14 Serbian name, with the accent, Bozo.

15 Q. But the name of the Serb -- what was the name

16 of the chief Serb soldier, if you can remember it?

17 A. Yes. When they arrived, more soldiers there

18 with the group.

19 Q. Who was in charge of that group of soldiers?

20 A. Mauzer.

21 Q. Mauzer. Thank you. Did there come a time

22 when everyone in the hospital, or perhaps most of you,

23 I don't know, were all gathered up and spoken to?

24 A. They would send a soldier all around the

25 hospital to let us to come.

Page 1220

1 Q. What were you told when you were all gathered

2 up?

3 A. We will stay in the cafeteria, in that area,

4 and they will told us, you know, the one who is taking

5 that territory, taking the power, we have to obey them,

6 otherwise, we will be killed. So they will try to ask

7 questions of some of our doctors in the line.

8 Q. Well, they asked questions of the doctors.

9 Did they treat the doctors well or badly at that

10 stage?

11 A. Bad. Badly, badly.

12 Q. Did they actually beat them in the hospital

13 or not?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. But taking the story forward, just to get

16 along a bit, were you, along with other people, taken

17 from the hospital to Luka, a place down on the river?

18 A. After they finished that lecture, they will

19 send us out on our -- on the work, and after while,

20 like evening-time, I don't know exactly what time, but

21 it was evening, because of the duty, they be giving the

22 therapy, some soldier, they will come and ask for my

23 name, and he will say in the hallway, (redacted)

24 [redacted]."

25 Q. So he had your name and he was looking for

Page 1221

1 you?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. NICE: Can we now delete that, obviously,

4 from the record, please?

5 Q. My mistake to have allowed you to say that,

6 but don't mention your name. It's all right. It won't

7 go out. Don't worry. The staff here can take care of

8 that sort of problem. It's okay.

9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 MR. NICE:

11 Q. Nothing to thank us for.

12 A. After that I follow him.

13 Q. Yes. Were you taken off to Luka?

14 A. They brought us in the basement, in the

15 hallway. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted). They told me to stay next to them in the

18 line.

19 Q. Again, to take the story quickly, because we

20 can deal with it quite quickly, this bit, you were put

21 in a van and you were taken to Luka?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As you drove through the town of Luka, did

24 you see the destruction that had already taken place?

25 A. Yes. It was terrible. It was terrible.

Page 1222

1 Q. Yes. Then when you got to Luka -- we know

2 about what Luka looks like because we've got lots of

3 photographs. So don't worry about that.

4 We know that there are hangars on one side

5 and little low buildings on the other, and we can show

6 you a diagram or your diagram of it if you like, but

7 when you first got there, did you go to the hangars or

8 to the buildings opposite?

9 A. They took us first in the office, and it was,

10 you know, walking around and -- in the yard between the

11 hangar it was, you know, police people walking around.

12 Q. Yes. What did they say was going to happen

13 to you?

14 A. They took us inside in the office, and

15 there's a procedure. Just, you know, basic -- just

16 they ask basic question. You know, no need to worry.

17 And even the policeman, he was very polite. He was

18 offer us drink and try to make comfort.

19 Q. But did you then see another man come into

20 the office, a man whose name you didn't know at the

21 time but you later learnt what his name was?

22 A. Actually, another person, Ranko is inside the

23 office and disturb, you know, even -- he was in the

24 police uniform.

25 Q. Yes. I think you mentioned a name. Was it

Page 1223

1 Ranko? It's not on the screen but it doesn't matter.

2 Did you say the name "Ranko"?

3 A. At that time I didn't know his name.

4 Q. But was he the man in the office or was he

5 the man who came into the office?

6 A. Who is come from outside.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Actually, he was run to his -- you know, it

9 was quick happening.

10 Q. When he came into the office -- again you can

11 deal with this bit very quickly, although, it may be

12 unpleasant -- what did he do to somebody who was

13 there?

14 A. He throw outside another policeman, and the

15 policeman tried to make him calm down, and then we will

16 stay only with that person who looks like crazy.

17 Q. What did he do?

18 A. First he was shot in the air with his gun,

19 and then he started cursing the others and yelling very

20 loud, and he just curse us as Muslim. He wants to all

21 kill us.

22 Q. Then did he do something to one of the men

23 there, and if so, to which man?

24 A. Yes. He approached the first, (redacted),

25 threw him on the ground and he hit him with a gun, you

Page 1224

1 know, bottom part, so bad, and with the boots walk over

2 to the head from -- you know, all body --

3 Q. How was (redacted) --

4 A. -- and hitting with the gun. After that, he

5 took (redacted), another man --

6 Q. This is the house painter -- not the house

7 painter, the -- well, the house painter that you'd come

8 with from the hospital, I think.

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. What did he do to him?

11 A. He will do the same, throw him the ground,

12 and the same tactic, you know, beat him with a gun,

13 with the boots, kicking and walking.

14 Q. Is that the other house painter that had come

15 with you from the hospital or was that someone else?

16 A. Actually, that's first (redacted) and then first

17 the house painter, (redacted) [phoen].

18 Q. Then what did he make those men do to each

19 other?

20 A. (redacted). He will order to them get up on the

21 feet. Then he was so tired and frustrated from the

22 beating, look exhaust, and then he will order to us

23 beat each other like boxing, you know.

24 Q. Was the doctor, and the house painters, and

25 yourself, were you compelled to try and do what you

Page 1225

1 wanted to do, to beat each other?

2 A. Yes, only I didn't hit. You know, probably

3 I -- they feel I'm weak.

4 Q. Now, when that was over, were you taken

5 outside or told to go outside?

6 A. Yes. With the gun he took us so fast,

7 pushing us to get out.

8 MR. NICE: May I ask the witness to have a

9 look at this exhibit? It's amended to the extent of

10 the name being taken out and replaced by "Witness K" at

11 the top, if I can hand it in. There is an original

12 which can be provided, under seal, which has the name

13 on it. It's a matter for the Court whether the

14 original need go in.

15 While that's being circulated --

16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice. I

17 don't think that you're going to finish with your

18 direct-examination this evening.

19 If you prefer that I speak directly to

20 Witness K. Perhaps it would be better to stop at ten

21 to six, in another ten minutes, which would allow you

22 to rest at your hotel, and perhaps that would be

23 better.

24 A. Yeah. Okay.

25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. All

Page 1226

1 right. We're going to go for about another ten minutes

2 and then we're going to stop and resume tomorrow.

3 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution

4 Exhibit 39.

5 MR. NICE: While it's being circulated, I

6 imagine that the Chamber and my friend will have no

7 difficulty following the sketch because of its

8 familiarity with the hangars which are shown on the

9 right and the office buildings which are shown more

10 divided up into smaller units on the left.

11 Could it be placed on the ELMO? Could the

12 jug of water be moved? I suspect it might be in the

13 way, and if the pointer could be extended. Right.

14 Q. Now, this is a plan. You drew this yourself,

15 I think, didn't you, at one stage?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As I just suggested to the Judges, the hangar

18 is on the right as we can see it, and the offices are

19 on the left, aren't they?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Well, you've been in the offices, and you

22 were then taken or ordered out. Where did you go when

23 you were taken out?

24 A. They took me out. It was dark. It was a lot

25 soldier and policemen, and for moment I -- I lost,

Page 1227

1 disappear my vision from another my co-worker, someone,

2 other person pushing me toward the wall.

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. They guide me toward the wall, actually, next

5 to the -- yes. They told me to turn toward the wall.

6 Q. Now, when you did that, did you notice some

7 detainees, some prisoners near you?

8 A. When I walking I saw the line, a line of the

9 people, maybe around -- it was dark. I saw body, like,

10 you know, between -- not too dark and I saw the bodies,

11 and it was maybe around 50 people all the line, and

12 then --

13 Q. Were they all in one line or was there more

14 than one row of people?

15 A. One line.

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. And I was first, next to door.

18 Q. These men, what were they doing? Where were

19 their hands?

20 A. On top, on the wall. You know, hold up to

21 the wall. Leaning against the wall.

22 Q. Did you hear anything said at about this

23 time?

24 A. Yeah. Behind our back I will heard you know,

25 the people, like running, putting -- standing in the

Page 1228

1 back behind the line, you know, and sound of machine,

2 you know, when they -- and a lot steps, you know,

3 walking behind our back. So --

4 Q. Did you hear anything said or anything

5 shouted, anything like that?

6 A. Yes. When they say to, you know, like get

7 prepare or get ready, and I turned my head toward to

8 them accidentally, and some of them, they told me, you

9 know, "Get out." But I didn't know they talked to me

10 until they come close to me, actually one soldier, and

11 said, "Go with me." During the walking they will --

12 they will walk. The soldier was in the line, you know,

13 my shoulder, you know, in the line, yes. He will guide

14 me to the same office where I was.

15 Q. Did you hear something else? You heard --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You'd heard the shout --

18 A. When I was walking, during the walking I

19 shout -- I heard, you know -- you know, like ready,

20 shooting, you know, a lot guns.

21 Q. You heard the word "ready." Did you hear any

22 other instruction?

23 A. Like shooting.

24 Q. Then the sound you heard after that was the

25 sound of what, guns?

Page 1229

1 A. Sound of the gun, a lot sound of the gun, and

2 sounds like, you know, like the body falling down.

3 Q. You came back across to the offices. Did you

4 go into the offices?

5 A. Yes. I will walk. I could not turn because

6 the guard was with me.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. And he will guide me in the same room where I

9 was previous, and he will brought me the room, and I

10 didn't even sit. I will hear the voice again previous,

11 crazy, crazy guy.

12 Q. That's the man who had been in the office and

13 made you all assault each other; is that right? Tried

14 to make you assault each other.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What did he do to you then?

17 A. He put me in the chair. Put me in the

18 chair. Excuse me.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. He will sit in the front of me.

21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Perhaps we

22 could stop at this point, Mr. Nice.

23 MR. NICE: Yes.

24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] According to

25 the summary, these are very difficult things to say.

Page 1230

1 Since we've only taken one break this afternoon and

2 everybody needs to rest --

3 Witness K, we're going to interrupt a little

4 earlier than we expected to. With the assistance of

5 the person with you, you're going to go to the Victims

6 and Witnesses Section and try to rest. I'm sure this

7 has been -- tomorrow morning will be difficult, so try

8 to rest this evening. You were very courageous. All

9 right?

10 A. Thank you.

11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please do not

12 move. The Judges are going to withdraw, and we will

13 see one another again tomorrow at 10.00.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, 10.00.

15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Court stands

16 adjourned.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

18 at 5.50 p.m. to be reconvened on

19 Thursday, the 9th day of September, 1999

20 at 10.00 a.m.

21

22

23

24

25