1. 1 10th November, 1999

    2 [Open session]

    3 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

    5 seated.

    6 Mr. Registrar, have the accused brought in,

    7 please.

    8 [The accused entered court]

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can now

    10 resume our work.

    11 I would like to say good morning to the

    12 interpreters and make sure everybody is at his or her

    13 station, as usual.

    14 Good morning. Everyone is here. The Defence

    15 is here, the Prosecution, the accused is here. The

    16 Judges are also here, and that's important, and so we

    17 can begin.

    18 Mr. Greaves, I give the floor to you for the

    19 next witness.

    20 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. I call Witness DA,

    21 please.

    22 [The witness entered court]

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear me,

    24 Witness DA? We're going to call you "DA". Do you hear

    25 me? Please turn to the Presiding Judge. I'm speaking



  2. 1 to you. Do you hear me? Do you see me?

    2 Good morning. I'm the Presiding Judge. For

    3 the time being, I'm the Presiding Judge. All right.

    4 Please try to relax. First you're going to be sure

    5 that your name is the one that's on this document that

    6 is being given to you. Don't state it. Simply check

    7 to see that it is, in fact, your name.

    8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's

    9 me.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Remain standing

    11 to take an oath. You're going to read the oath which

    12 is being given to you.

    13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    14 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    15 and nothing but the truth.

    16 WITNESS: WITNESS DA

    17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You

    19 may now be seated.

    20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please sit

    22 down. Make yourself comfortable. Try and relax.

    23 You're in front of Judges. You have nothing to fear.

    24 You are being protected by measures which are taken at

    25 the request of the Defence for you, and you're going to



  3. 1 answer Mr. Greaves' question, who is Defence counsel

    2 for Goran Jelisic, who is in this courtroom on your

    3 left. Then you will answer the Prosecutor's questions,

    4 and finally those of the Judges.

    5 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.

    6 Examined by Mr. Greaves:

    7 Q. Witness DA, could you tell us, please, what

    8 your ethnic background is?

    9 A. I am Macedonian.

    10 Q. When did you first meet Goran --

    11 MR. GREAVES: I think it's possible that the

    12 witness's microphone is not on.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The

    14 microphone is connected.

    15 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. I'm sorry, I just

    16 wanted to make certain all was in order.

    17 Q. When did you first meet Goran Jelisic,

    18 please, Witness DA?

    19 A. In 1988.

    20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise,

    21 but the microphone is not working properly.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Are you sure

    23 that the microphone is working properly? I've got the

    24 interpretation.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. Insofar



  4. 1 as the voice is being distorted, it isn't the

    2 microphone that is usually used but the microphone

    3 which is a little bit larger.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, all

    5 right. Can the interpreters hear? Do they hear the

    6 answers, do they hear the witness's answers?

    7 All right. Everything seems to be in its

    8 proper place, Mr. Greaves.

    9 MR. GREAVES:

    10 Q. How was it that you first met Goran Jelisic?

    11 A. I first met Goran at a fishing competition,

    12 because my job is linked to that particular sport.

    13 Q. And having met him whilst out fishing, did

    14 you meet him again on similar occasions?

    15 A. Later on, yes.

    16 Q. Was Goran Jelisic part of a fishing team for

    17 the purposes of these competitions?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. What was the ethnic make-up of his team? Was

    20 it mixed or one race only; can you help us about that?

    21 A. The team was mixed, just as the town of

    22 Bijeljina is mixed.

    23 Q. Did you, as a result of meeting him through

    24 these fishing competitions, become friendly with Goran?

    25 A. I became friends with him because Goran grew



  5. 1 up in the town where my brother-in-law grew up.

    2 Q. I'd like to turn now to the time when the

    3 former Yugoslavia began to break up. Did your

    4 friendship with him continue?

    5 A. Yes, it did.

    6 Q. At any time during the course of your

    7 friendship with him, did he ever express to you any

    8 nationalist or extremist sentiments towards other

    9 races?

    10 A. He never said anything bad about any of the

    11 nationalities. Otherwise, he would not be friends with

    12 me and my family, because I belong to a different

    13 ethnic group.

    14 Q. Did he ever show any interest in politics?

    15 A. I never noticed that in Goran.

    16 Q. As far as his personal disposition was

    17 concerned, was he a happy individual, or sad, or

    18 introverted, extraverted? How would you describe him?

    19 A. As a young man, Goran was very communicative,

    20 a happy man. He liked socialising. That's how I know

    21 him, and that's why I was very surprised with all this.

    22 Q. As matters began to deteriorate in the former

    23 Yugoslavia, did he ever express any views about what

    24 was apparently taking place?

    25 A. No. He believed that the politicians would



  6. 1 settle it all.

    2 Q. During the time that you knew him before the

    3 war, did he have any girlfriends that you were aware

    4 of?

    5 A. As far as I remember, Goran had a lot of

    6 friends among the Muslims, and he had a girlfriend,

    7 too, who was a Muslim.

    8 Q. When the war broke out, did you have to do

    9 any military service?

    10 A. Yes. We were all drafted by the military

    11 authorities, and as a citizen, I too was mobilised and

    12 was sent to the Majevica front.

    13 Q. Between March and December of 1992, did you

    14 see Goran at all?

    15 A. I did not see Goran during that period of

    16 time. Sometime before the new year of 1993, I met him

    17 again.

    18 Q. Did you resume your old friendship with him

    19 at that point?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. And did you visit each other's homes?

    22 A. Goran would frequently come by with my

    23 brother-in-law. I live in the country, in a village,

    24 and they are friends from their school days.

    25 Q. Had his attitude towards you and your family



  7. 1 changed in any way?

    2 A. I didn't notice any changes at all, and I had

    3 the impression that he was even better in his behaviour

    4 towards me, and he asked me whether anybody had

    5 insulted me because I was of a different ethnic group,

    6 nationality.

    7 Q. Did he ever offer you any help or assistance

    8 of any kind?

    9 A. Yes, he said that if there was anything he

    10 could do to help me, he said he would as far as he was

    11 able to. I was grateful to him for that, as well as my

    12 family, because after all, it was wartime, and I come

    13 from a different nationality and lived in that town.

    14 Q. Did those offers of assistance, did that

    15 impress you?

    16 A. Well, like anybody else, you always feel

    17 gratified if somebody offers to help you, although I

    18 probably didn't expect any help from him because he was

    19 not able to do very much, just like any other ordinary

    20 person.

    21 Q. During your conversations with him, did he

    22 express any attitude about the war and what had

    23 happened during the war?

    24 A. Well, he would say that it was all mindless

    25 and futile and that it should be finished as soon as



  8. 1 possible; that it was the politicians that started it

    2 and that they would profit, whereas the people to

    3 suffer were the ordinary people, whereas the rest

    4 would -- the politicians would continue to profit from

    5 it.

    6 Q. Would he remain calm during such

    7 conversations, or did the topic upset him in any way?

    8 A. I noticed that after that kind of

    9 conversation, he would become upset and raise his voice

    10 slightly.

    11 Q. Were you aware that there had been an element

    12 of persecution towards the Muslims in the area?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Did Goran ever make any observations about

    15 that persecution, that policy?

    16 A. I never heard that personally from Goran.

    17 Q. I want to turn now to the winter of 1994. Is

    18 one of the things that you do at home is to cure meat,

    19 Witness DA?

    20 A. That particular winter, the winter of 1994,

    21 because I had heard the rumours going around which were

    22 spreading -- and Bijeljina is a small town, so you can

    23 hear everything and hear it quickly -- I learned that

    24 allegedly Goran had killed some people. And when we

    25 finished our job and when everybody went into the



  9. 1 house, the two of us stayed outside alone. While we

    2 were putting away the tools, I felt uncomfortable,

    3 because I wanted to know if it was true.

    4 So I asked Goran. I said, "Goran, is it

    5 really true?" And he was a little surprised, when I

    6 asked him that, and said, "Uncle [redacted], it is the

    7 bitter truth that I really did kill ten people,

    8 following orders by certain individuals." And he said,

    9 "Because of that I am very sorry, because I don't

    10 think those people were guilty of anything." And he

    11 said that he hoped that one day everybody would take

    12 responsibility for what they had done and for the

    13 people who forced me [sic] to do that, too.

    14 We ended our conversation there. I was

    15 terribly surprised, and I felt very sorry for him.

    16 Q. Did he identify anybody who had been

    17 responsible for giving him such orders?

    18 A. Well, he told me that the chief of SUP in

    19 Brcko, where that happened, a certain Dragan -- whether

    20 the surname was Veselic, I don't quite remember, and

    21 another name that I don't recall because after all, a

    22 lot of time has passed since then.

    23 Q. Did he say anything of what had happened to

    24 him since that time, since the war?

    25 A. He did tell me and I heard that he was



  10. 1 persecuted, the police, a Davidovic, and he didn't want

    2 to go any more. And he even injured himself. He

    3 wounded himself in the leg, and he showed me some of

    4 his wounds. And I knew that he didn't want to continue

    5 to do what he was being forced to do. And as far as I

    6 know, for a time he fled to Serbia, as well, to prevent

    7 them from capturing him and liquidating him.

    8 Q. During the course of what he was telling you,

    9 did he remain calm, or did his demeanour change? Was

    10 he upset in any way?

    11 A. Well, of course he was upset. Anybody would

    12 be upset after a conversation of that kind or when

    13 you're forced to do things of that kind.

    14 Q. Did he say anything to you about the effect

    15 which the events of the war had had upon him?

    16 A. Well, he said he had no intention of harming

    17 anybody, but it transpired that you can lose your head

    18 very easily during a war, and that he was forced and

    19 pressured into doing what he did.

    20 Q. Was there any conversation about any

    21 repercussions upon him since these events had happened?

    22 A. I don't understand your question, quite.

    23 Q. Perhaps I'll move on.

    24 Were you surprised by what you had heard from

    25 him?



  11. 1 A. Of course I was surprised. I didn't expect

    2 it from such a nice young man, that it was possible

    3 that he could have done anything like that.

    4 Q. Before the war, had he ever exhibited any

    5 sign whatever that he was someone capable of doing

    6 these things?

    7 A. As far as I knew him, no. He did not show

    8 any such signs. And he was friends with my

    9 brother-in-law, as I say, where they grew up, in

    10 Bijeljina, which is a small town. Of course rumours go

    11 around very quickly, and I never heard of anything like

    12 that, and his demeanour was not that of a young man

    13 like that.

    14 Q. The killings of which you heard from him, and

    15 no doubt you've heard other rumours, were those things

    16 that you condemn, Witness DA?

    17 A. Well, every right-minded person would condemn

    18 every killing, and everybody must be held accountable

    19 for what he has done. This cannot be avoided, either

    20 in the eyes of men and in the eyes of God, or before

    21 the Court.

    22 Q. What is your conclusion about the character

    23 of Goran Jelisic in the light of what he admitted to

    24 you?

    25 A. Well, all I can say in conclusion is that he



  12. 1 was forced to do this as a young person, and how -- but

    2 how he was forced to do this, I don't know. But I do

    3 believe that that young man would not have done it had

    4 he not been forced to do it.

    5 MR. GREAVES: Yes, Witness DA. Would you

    6 wait there, please.

    7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    9 Mr. Greaves.

    10 Let me turn to the Office of the Prosecutor.

    11 The Prosecutor is now going to ask you some questions.

    12 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

    13 Q. The other possibility, Witness DA, is that

    14 you were misled by Jelisic and he was entirely willing

    15 to kill these people. That's a possibility, isn't it?

    16 A. I don't know that. I can't say that. I

    17 can't make that kind of conclusion about anyone.

    18 Q. I want to know why you say that you felt

    19 sorry for him, but so far you've said nothing about

    20 feeling sorry for the victims.

    21 A. I said that I was sorry for every man, every

    22 young man and every victim. It was war. I am very

    23 sorry for everybody who suffered during the war, and

    24 particularly as many young people died during the war

    25 for nothing.



  13. 1 Q. How can you be forced to kill another man,

    2 please, Witness DA? Explain that to us.

    3 A. Well, I think you can be bribed. I didn't

    4 have any problems. I was an old man, I worked in a

    5 warehouse, but I heard rumours going around town that

    6 this kind of thing was happening on all three sides,

    7 not only on our side and not only in Goran's case but

    8 in others too.

    9 Q. People would simply be paid, be bribed to

    10 kill; is that --

    11 THE INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon.

    12 Blackmailed. The witness said "blackmailed".

    13 MR. NICE:

    14 Q. All right, blackmailed. Well, are you

    15 suggesting that Jelisic was blackmailed, and if so,

    16 over what topic was he being blackmailed?

    17 A. I know that he was forced. How he was

    18 forced, I really don't know.

    19 Q. How do you know the man was forced if he

    20 never told you, please?

    21 A. Well, he did tell me. He said he was

    22 forced. He was made to by the person that ordered him,

    23 Dragan, the chief of that SUP.

    24 Q. Didn't you say to him, "How on Earth did he

    25 persuade you, how on Earth did he force you?" You must



  14. 1 have been so shocked, you must have asked that

    2 question, Witness DA.

    3 A. That's right, I was shocked, and I was

    4 completely taken aback and was speechless. I can't

    5 explain it. I didn't know what to ask him. I just

    6 shut up, and that's where we concluded that very

    7 uncomfortable, unfortunate conversation.

    8 Q. How many seconds was it that you discussed

    9 this topic with Jelisic on the basis of which you come

    10 here to give evidence of his good character? Was it 10

    11 seconds, 15 seconds, one minute? Tell us.

    12 A. The conversation with Goran himself, that

    13 particular conversation? Well, I know Goran, and

    14 that's why I was so surprised to hear what he told me.

    15 I didn't discuss his character with him but what he

    16 did.

    17 Q. How long did the conversation, where he said

    18 he was forced to kill, how long did that conversation

    19 last, Witness DA; half a minute, a minute?

    20 A. Well, not half a minute. Two or three

    21 minutes, perhaps, while we came to the topic from my

    22 last question to his answer.

    23 Q. And on the basis of all that he said in two

    24 or three minutes, you feel able to come here and say he

    25 must have been forced and he's a man of good character;



  15. 1 is that the position?

    2 MR. GREAVES: With respect, that's an unfair

    3 question. This man has known him for ten or more

    4 years. Surely, the proper question would be to ask

    5 him, "In the context of knowing him for that period of

    6 time, how are you able to assess this element of

    7 character?"

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I will make

    9 that decision. I think that's a relevant question.

    10 Please continue, Mr. Nice. The objection is

    11 overruled.

    12 MR. NICE:

    13 Q. How, on the basis of two or three minutes of

    14 conversation, are you able to come here and say this

    15 man was forced and that your judgement of his character

    16 remains as you have described it, please?

    17 A. Your Honours, I am not making any judgement

    18 or decision or assessing anybody's character. But

    19 having known him from a long time back, I came here to

    20 say what happened. I know that people are saying that

    21 many young men like that were forced to do similar

    22 things on all three sides, not only on this one,

    23 whether it was on the Serbian side, the Muslim side, or

    24 any other side, and many young men lost their lives and

    25 committed things like that during the war.



  16. 1 Q. Forced to do what, Witness DA? What is it

    2 that this man, as you understood it, did?

    3 A. I don't understand your question.

    4 Q. Well, did he kill people simply by being a

    5 soldier; did he kill people by taking them out and

    6 executing them when he had been given proper formal

    7 instructions to execute them; did he take them out at

    8 random from a warehouse, line them up against a wall,

    9 select one, make him put his head on a drain, and blow

    10 his brains out? What is it this man, as you understood

    11 it, was forced to do?

    12 A. He was forced, as a soldier, to execute

    13 military orders, which if you do not execute them, you

    14 lose your head.

    15 Q. Did he tell you he was executing military

    16 orders or did you guess that?

    17 A. Well, I guessed it because I know that that's

    18 how it was, because nobody will kill anybody else

    19 unless he is forced to or ordered to do so from certain

    20 parties or by someone.

    21 Q. And, what, these killings, as you understood

    22 it, were they in the field of war or were they

    23 somewhere else?

    24 A. As far as I know, it happened in the war

    25 areas where the fighting was going on. I don't know



  17. 1 about any other places.

    2 Q. Would you look, please, at Exhibit 67? It's

    3 the sequence of photographs. It's already been

    4 produced as an exhibit.

    5 We're familiar with this exhibit,

    6 Witness DA. Just look at the first photograph and then

    7 cast your eyes through --

    8 MR. NICE: They can stay in the book. It's

    9 all right. He can go straight through them.

    10 THE USHER: Do you want them on the ELMO?

    11 MR. NICE: Yes, why not. Put them on the

    12 ELMO.

    13 And the next photograph. The man in the blue

    14 shirt is Jelisic. The next photograph, please. The

    15 next photograph, please. The next photograph, please.

    16 The next photograph, please. Pause there for one

    17 minute, but we'll look at the next photographs in a few

    18 seconds.

    19 Q. This is Jelisic killing a man in the street.

    20 You had no idea, when you gave evidence of his

    21 character, that this is the sort of thing he had done,

    22 did you?

    23 A. First of all, judging by this photograph, I

    24 cannot say whether it's Jelisic or not, because it's

    25 taken from behind and it could be anyone. I don't



  18. 1 know.

    2 Q. It's admitted that it's him. He's admitted

    3 it. It's a fact.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, I

    5 want to confirm what the Prosecutor said. The

    6 identification -- well, all right. The fact that you

    7 can't identify it is right, but I want to tell you that

    8 the Judges in this Trial Chamber received testimony

    9 corroborating the fact that this is Goran Jelisic. I

    10 want this to be clear to you. Of course, it is your

    11 own right to say that you don't recognise him. Thank

    12 you.

    13 Please continue, Mr. Nice.

    14 MR. NICE:

    15 Q. You had no idea, did you, that Jelisic killed

    16 people in the circumstances revealed in this

    17 photograph, did you?

    18 A. No, I did not know.

    19 Q. You see, Jelisic has also said that he was

    20 incapable of looking at the people he killed.

    21 MR. NICE: Would you turn over the next

    22 photograph, please, usher?

    23 Q. Do you see him there? Please look at the

    24 photograph, Witness, and the next one.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. We're



  19. 1 going to have to bend it over there. Yes, that's

    2 better. Thank you.

    3 MR. NICE:

    4 Q. And the next photograph, please. Do you see

    5 what he's doing? He's aiming at the head of the man

    6 that's on the ground. And the next photograph,

    7 please. Aiming and looking at the man dead or dying.

    8 Do you see that?

    9 A. I see the picture.

    10 Q. You had no idea, did you, that the man about

    11 whom you've come to give character evidence was capable

    12 of doing this sort of thing, did you?

    13 A. Your Honours, I am talking about what

    14 happened before. What happened there, I don't know

    15 what happened. I know nothing of that, and I cannot

    16 bring any conclusions in.

    17 MR. NICE: Thank you. The exhibit can be

    18 removed. Thank you, usher.

    19 Q. He spoke to you in critical terms of the

    20 profit made in war by the leaders, didn't he?

    21 A. Yes. He said that all the leaders were

    22 profiting.

    23 Q. Did he imply by that that he had himself made

    24 no profit from war?

    25 A. That's what I concluded, judging by the



  20. 1 conversation.

    2 Q. So he made no admission to you about the

    3 money that he had taken from Muslim victims of the

    4 attack on Muslims by Serbs, did he?

    5 A. I didn't ask him about that; neither did he

    6 tell me anything about that.

    7 Q. He made no revelation to you of where he got

    8 the money from on which he was living?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. You say he expressed no views adverse to

    11 Muslims, although he did ask you whether you had been

    12 insulted, didn't he?

    13 A. Well, as far as I know, he didn't only ask

    14 me. I know that he helped many of the Muslims whom he

    15 had been friends with. He helped them during the war

    16 and during the fighting. I did not hear him take money

    17 from anyone. What happened at the front, I don't know.

    18 Q. You see, he's made it clear, in answers he's

    19 given on a tape-recorder to investigators, that it was

    20 explained to him that the people he had to kill were

    21 Muslim agitators and extremists and that that's how he

    22 was persuaded to kill Muslims, people called balijas.

    23 He never gave that explanation to you, did he?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. By "Yes", you're, I think, agreeing with my



  21. 1 proposition that he didn't ever give you that

    2 explanation.

    3 A. He never told me why he killed, except for

    4 the fact that I learned that he was forced. And the

    5 rest, I simply don't know.

    6 Q. When you say you learned, you learned from

    7 his lips and from nowhere else that he was forced?

    8 A. I can give you the following answer to this

    9 question: I concluded that he was pressured into doing

    10 this because I know that other people were pressured to

    11 do things that were improper, illegal, and those people

    12 ended up at the Tribunal, people from all three sides.

    13 Q. Which people, then, just so that we

    14 understand your position? Which people have landed up

    15 at the Tribunal who shouldn't be here, please?

    16 A. I didn't say "people who shouldn't be here".

    17 It is not for me to say who should be here or who

    18 shouldn't be. I just know that some people are guilty

    19 of higher crimes than other people. I am just

    20 saying -- I'm just stating that some people were forced

    21 to do certain things.

    22 Q. You've told us about his having a

    23 girlfriend. Just one small detail. Was he proud of

    24 his success with women?

    25 A. Sir, I'm an elderly person. I just heard



  22. 1 rumours. I know that he had friends among Muslims and

    2 that he had a girlfriend who was a Muslim.

    3 Q. Was he proud of his prowess with women?

    4 A. I have not observed that.

    5 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... been

    6 seen by other people preparatory to coming to

    7 judgement, and his attitude on women, part of his

    8 character, is summarised by his saying he took test

    9 drives on many women. Is that something he ever said

    10 to you?

    11 A. I don't know about that.

    12 Q. He spoke of killing a precise number of

    13 people. Please tell us how many.

    14 A. He told me ten, twelve people, although he

    15 did say, "I don't know if they were guilty or not. I

    16 feel sorry for those people. I don't know which ones

    17 were guilty and which ones were not, but I did it based

    18 on the orders of Dragan, the commander in MUP."

    19 Q. So it's ten or twelve people. Could it be

    20 more than twelve?

    21 A. No. I don't know. I could not have

    22 concluded that. Ten, twelve people.

    23 Q. But what he made quite clear to you was that

    24 the people he killed might have been completely

    25 innocent, for he knew nothing to show that they were



  23. 1 guilty of anything; correct?

    2 A. Could you please repeat the question?

    3 Q. Certainly. He made it clear to you that the

    4 people he killed might have been completely innocent,

    5 for he knew nothing to show that they were guilty?

    6 A. He said he didn't know whether those people

    7 were guilty or not. He simply carried on his orders.

    8 That's all he told me.

    9 MR. NICE: Thank you.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    11 Mr. Greaves, you have the right to reexamine

    12 in order to supplement any of the questions that the

    13 Prosecutor asked.

    14 All right. Mr. Greaves is going to take the

    15 floor again, Witness DA, before the Judges ask their

    16 questions.

    17 Re-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    18 Q. Witness DA, you have been shown some

    19 photographs this morning. Do those photographs in any

    20 way alter the element of surprise that you have that

    21 Goran Jelisic could be involved in those sort of

    22 events?

    23 A. Looking at these photographs, I cannot

    24 conclude that Goran is in these pictures. This is

    25 not -- these photographs are not very clear. I don't



  24. 1 know --

    2 Q. Witness DA, just remember, it's accepted that

    3 the person in that photograph is Goran Jelisic. Just

    4 listen to the question: Do those photographs alter

    5 your surprise that Goran Jelisic could be involved in

    6 events of that kind?

    7 A. They do not alter, because I know that he did

    8 it because he was ordered to. And, of course, I feel

    9 sorry for people that were killed in this way.

    10 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Judge Riad?

    12 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness DA. I've

    13 been listening very carefully to your defence of

    14 Mr. Jelisic. I would like you to remember that you are

    15 here as a witness, not as a defence lawyer, and you're

    16 not coming here to speak to us about human nature.

    17 Most of your answers were concerning human nature,

    18 because you are a good man, apparently, so you always

    19 would say, for instance, when you were asked if Jelisic

    20 was upset, you said, "Of course. Everybody would be

    21 upset." We are not asking about everybody.

    22 You said, when you were asked "What do you

    23 think about his killing," you said, "Of course he must

    24 have been pressured because nobody else would do it

    25 otherwise." These are quotes. "Nobody can do this



  25. 1 unless he is pressured."

    2 So most of your answers concerned human

    3 nature. And you are coming here just to testify on

    4 very specific facts of an accused man, so we want to

    5 know three things. How long did you know Mr. Jelisic,

    6 to testify about his character? Apart from the fact

    7 that you like him, which is very clear; you even refuse

    8 to accept that the pictures are his when he has himself

    9 accepted it, and it's very commendable of you when you

    10 trust him so much. But we want to know, how long did

    11 you know him, to trust him so much? How much do you

    12 know about the events which happened? Because you

    13 seemed to look at the pictures for the first time.

    14 And you are a witness, and "witness" means

    15 somebody who saw. And really, what did you hear from

    16 him? Not from human nature. Don't tell us, "Of course

    17 everybody would be" -- whatever you said -- "everybody

    18 would be upset." No, we want to know, did you see him

    19 repenting, crying, as some people do, asking for

    20 forgiveness from the Church, from anybody?

    21 We want these facts. You are a witness of

    22 facts, not a moralist. So if you have just a few

    23 things to add, to tell us exactly how much you have

    24 known him, how much he told you, how much you have seen

    25 from these things, pictures which you don't know about,



  26. 1 and how much you have heard from him, could you tell us

    2 something about that?

    3 Thank you. Go ahead.

    4 A. As I have said, I have known Goran since

    5 1980 [sic]. We met in competitions through hunting,

    6 through fishing. And I also want to say that he became

    7 upset after I asked him the question. He blushed, he

    8 was taken aback, and he said, "I know that I will be

    9 held accountable sooner or later before the Court for

    10 this, but then I will not hide anything, and I will say

    11 about everybody who participated in it."

    12 And this is where we ended our conversation

    13 about this topic. So I felt uncomfortable, and I was

    14 surprised, and -- I don't know how to describe this,

    15 but that is just the kind of person I am. I simply

    16 could not take any more discussion of this topic.

    17 JUDGE RIAD: You said, if I understood

    18 rightly, you knew him since 1980? Did you say that?

    19 A. 1988.

    20 JUDGE RIAD: '88?

    21 A. '88.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: And since then, if you know him

    23 well, do you know what he has been doing in life? Do

    24 you know about that, or you were just going together

    25 fishing, outside? Do you know more about his life, his



  27. 1 actions? Do you know something about that? To know

    2 his character, you should know what he has been doing.

    3 So can you tell us about that, in brief?

    4 A. I personally don't know what he did in life.

    5 He was a young man, and I was in such a position that I

    6 only would meet him during these fishing expeditions,

    7 competitions, and I would see him fishing, by the

    8 water. I don't know about his private life.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: So he was a fishing partner?

    10 That's what you know about him?

    11 A. I am in charge of fishing.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Then he was fishing in

    13 your domain. Now let's speak about the events which

    14 happened. How close were you to all these events, or

    15 did you just hear about it from him?

    16 A. I heard about -- I only heard about that. I

    17 did not stay in Brcko.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: Good. Then the last thing, how

    19 much did he talk to you about it, so that you would

    20 know exactly how he felt? Did he confide in you, as an

    21 uncle or somebody, or was it just a casual

    22 conversation?

    23 A. When I asked the question, of course it was a

    24 casual conversation. I wanted to know whether it was

    25 true or not, because I was surprised that a young man



  28. 1 like that could have done something like that.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Apparently you are a very good

    3 man. Thank you, sir.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    5 Judge Riad.

    6 Judge Rodrigues has no questions; I have only

    7 one. You have come to testify for Goran Jelisic, and I

    8 have to congratulate you on the effort that you have

    9 made in order to testify for a criminal who has

    10 acknowledged what he has done, as he pleaded guilty to

    11 a certain number of crimes, and as Judge Riad said, we

    12 have to salute you for that, because it's never easy,

    13 but you must have said, "I have to come to speak for

    14 that man, who is in great difficulties."

    15 That's fine, but what raises questions in my

    16 mind gives me the liberty to ask you one question

    17 only: When you leave this Tribunal, will you be the

    18 same man in respect of Goran Jelisic that you were when

    19 you came into this courtroom? Will you be the same

    20 man?

    21 A. If I ever meet him, if I were to meet him

    22 ever again, I don't know how that would affect my

    23 attitude to him. He will be held accountable for what

    24 he had done.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.



  29. 1 Therefore you are a man of a great moral rectitude,

    2 moral principles, but these moral principles come in

    3 after friendship and fishing expeditions; is that what

    4 you are telling us? You have the right to say that.

    5 Is that what you mean, that the friendship with

    6 somebody that you would go fishing with in 1988 is the

    7 supreme barrier, which means that everything that you

    8 are shown in no way changes the idea that you have of

    9 Goran Jelisic?

    10 In other words, tomorrow, say that he would

    11 be acquitted; let's say that he would be freed, so you

    12 would be able to go fishing with him without any

    13 problems. You would be serene, you would be

    14 comfortable. Is that what you are telling us?

    15 Please answer: Is that what you're telling

    16 us?

    17 A. Your Honour, first of all, I'm not fishing

    18 myself; I'm in charge of the fishing --

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Oh, please,

    20 please, please, please, spare me. In such serious

    21 proceedings, please spare me such a ridiculous answer.

    22 I am asking you whether the fact that you would go

    23 fishing with him in 1988 represents a supreme barrier

    24 which allows you to completely ignore what Mr. Jelisic

    25 has acknowledged and what you saw today illustrated in



  30. 1 front of you. Is that what you're telling us?

    2 A. No one can simply be so casual about it, and

    3 nobody could remain calm when hearing about this. But

    4 if -- it is my job to have a professional attitude

    5 towards all fishermen, because he will be held

    6 accountable by the Tribunal. He will be punished.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You are a man,

    8 really, who has compartments within your mind. I can

    9 congratulate you. You are well organised within your

    10 own mind. There are moral principles; there are

    11 fishing companions, which apparently is very

    12 important.

    13 I think I won't ask you any further

    14 questions. I simply would like to say to you, do you

    15 continue to say, those poor victims, murdered, as you

    16 saw on the photograph, when you saw them transported in

    17 refrigerated trucks like animals, Witness DA, can you

    18 continue to tell us that you are very sorry, just very

    19 sorry? Is that what you are telling us?

    20 A. Naturally, I am sorry. I could only see this

    21 in a movie. I still, to this day, cannot still believe

    22 that this had, in fact, happened. This is

    23 unbelievable. I cannot comprehend that something like

    24 this could have happened, and I'm still -- to me, this

    25 still seems impossible, although he admitted, but I'm



  31. 1 just such a person that I simply find it difficult to

    2 believe all this.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. I

    4 have no further questions. I send you back to your

    5 work, and I congratulate you. I believe that you are a

    6 good fisherman.

    7 All right. The testimony is complete. We

    8 will now take a break -- yes, I was just going to

    9 say -- all right. We are going to take a five- to

    10 ten-minute break.

    11 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

    12 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.

    13 [The witness entered court]

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can resume

    15 the hearing now.

    16 Have the accused brought in, please. Please

    17 be seated.

    18 [The accused entered court]

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Would you

    20 please stand. Do you hear me, Witness DI?

    21 First we're going to ask you to check the

    22 names that are on the piece of paper being shown you.

    23 Don't state the name. We don't want your name to be

    24 disclosed. Is that you?

    25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.



  32. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.

    2 Please remain standing for a few more moments, as long

    3 as it takes to take an oath.

    4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    5 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    6 and nothing but the truth.

    7 WITNESS: WITNESS DI

    8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You

    10 may now be seated, Witness DI.

    11 You have agreed to come to testify at the

    12 trial of Goran Jelisic here at the International

    13 Criminal Tribunal, Goran Jelisic who is to your left.

    14 I'm sure they explained to you. First the

    15 Defence attorney, Mr. Greaves, will ask you some

    16 questions, then the Prosecutor, and lastly the Judges.

    17 Please relax. You have nothing to fear.

    18 Remain calm, and then answer the questions that you're

    19 asked very precisely.

    20 Please proceed, Mr. Greaves.

    21 Examined by Mr. Greaves:

    22 Q. Witness DI, would you be so kind as to tell

    23 us your ethnic background?

    24 A. I'm of the Muslim nationality.

    25 Q. When did you first meet Goran Jelisic?



  33. 1 A. I've known Goran since I was ten years old.

    2 Q. Did there come a time when you began to work

    3 together?

    4 A. I went to school with Goran together, and we

    5 worked together.

    6 Q. When did you start to work with him?

    7 A. In 198 -- I'm not quite sure which year. In

    8 1986 or 1987, sometime there. We did agricultural

    9 work.

    10 Q. At the place where you were employed, and

    11 don't tell us what the name of it was, but at that

    12 place were the majority of workers of one particular

    13 nationality?

    14 A. Yes. They were mostly Muslims.

    15 Q. Did Goran know that you were a Muslim?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness sit

    18 closer to the microphone, please, the interpreters

    19 note.

    20 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much,

    21 Mr. Usher.

    22 Q. Are you able to say what Goran Jelisic's

    23 attitude towards those of other nationalities was at

    24 the place where you worked?

    25 A. Well, there was no difference between us. We



  34. 1 didn't distinguish between Muslims and Serbs. We were

    2 all just like one family.

    3 Q. Did there come a time when you left the place

    4 where you were working?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And after that, did you see somewhat less of

    7 Goran Jelisic?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. When the war broke out, did you remain where

    10 you were living?

    11 A. Not exactly in that place; a little further

    12 off from it, a few kilometres away.

    13 Q. I'd like to turn now, please, to the summer

    14 of 1993. Did you re-establish contact with Goran

    15 Jelisic at around that time?

    16 A. Yes. In the summer of 1993, I saw Goran.

    17 Q. By this time, had you become married and had

    18 at least one child?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. When you saw Goran Jelisic in the summer of

    21 1993, was his attitude towards you any different from

    22 what it had been before?

    23 A. No. No, he didn't change at all. In fact,

    24 he was a little better, because we hadn't seen each

    25 other for quite some time, for several months.



  35. 1 Q. Did he make any enquires about your new and

    2 present circumstances?

    3 A. Yes, several times. He asked me how I was,

    4 whether everything was okay.

    5 Q. Did he enquire about how you were managing to

    6 support yourself?

    7 A. Yes, he asked that too as to my material

    8 status. He asked a lot of questions about my

    9 well-being.

    10 Q. And on that occasion, did you have one of

    11 your children with you?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And how did he react towards your child?

    14 A. Well, he almost considered it to be a close

    15 relation of his.

    16 Q. Did Goran Jelisic know your parents?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Did he make any enquires about their

    19 circumstances and how they were getting on?

    20 A. Yes, he made enquires.

    21 Q. After that, did he begin to come to your

    22 house at all?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Did he give you any financial assistance of

    25 any kind?



  36. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. How were things during that period for you

    3 and your family?

    4 A. Well, they were highly critical. My brother

    5 was in Bosnia, and we didn't have much to live on. So

    6 with Goran and his help, we succeeded in surviving.

    7 Q. Were you in employment at this time?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Was your husband in employment?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Was it easy for Muslims to get jobs in that

    12 area at that time?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours would give me a

    15 moment, please.

    16 Your Honour, there's an issue of

    17 interpretation. My interpreter says that the question

    18 was interpreted wrongly and that the question, as

    19 interpreted, was, "Was it difficult for Muslims to get

    20 jobs in that area at that time?" I would like to have

    21 it clarified, please, if I may.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. I had

    23 understood -- well, the question was, "Was it easy for

    24 Muslims to find jobs," and the answer that was given

    25 was, "Yes." The answer is the problem; isn't that



  37. 1 correct? All right. Ask the question again, please.

    2 MR. GREAVES: The question was wrongly

    3 interpreted, according to my interpreter. May I have

    4 Your Honour's leave to ask the question again, please?

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Of course, of

    6 course.

    7 JUDGE RIAD: Or to correct it, because we'll

    8 have two contradictory questions.

    9 MR. GREAVES: Of course.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: You can correct it, if you want

    11 to.

    12 MR. GREAVES: Yes.

    13 Q. Witness DI, you've told Their Honours that

    14 neither you nor your husband were in employment at that

    15 time. As far as Muslims were concerned, was it easy or

    16 was it difficult for Muslims to get jobs at that time?

    17 A. It was difficult.

    18 Q. Did you receive financial assistance from

    19 Goran Jelisic, or other material assistance from him,

    20 during those times?

    21 A. I got material and financial assistance from

    22 Goran, and he was always there to help me whenever I

    23 needed it.

    24 Q. Were you aware of him having helped any other

    25 Muslims at all?



  38. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Without mentioning any names of those to whom

    3 he had given help, how many people were you aware of to

    4 whom he'd given help?

    5 A. Well, there are several, but I'm certain for

    6 about two men, because I was present when he helped

    7 them, and they said how Goran had helped them.

    8 Q. As far as his attitude towards Muslims was

    9 concerned, had that changed in any way in the later

    10 years when you knew him?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Goran Jelisic has pleaded guilty before this

    13 Tribunal to committing a substantial number of killings

    14 and other offences. Before you came here today, were

    15 you aware of that?

    16 A. Well, just a little. But you know what,

    17 Goran, as a man, I can't understand that he could have

    18 done anything like that. I know Goran very well. He

    19 was quiet and shy. He liked helping everybody.

    20 Q. Does the fact that he's pleaded guilty to

    21 killing a number of Muslims, does that surprise you, in

    22 the light of your knowledge of this man?

    23 A. I was completely surprised because, as I say,

    24 I knew Goran very well.

    25 Q. Even though he has extended the hand of



  39. 1 friendship to him [sic], do you condemn what he has

    2 done?

    3 A. Well, I don't know what to say. Quite

    4 simply, I can't understand that Goran could have done

    5 anything like that. I cannot accept it, but ...

    6 Q. Well, will you accept from me that he's

    7 pleaded guilty to those killings and has admitted them

    8 to the Tribunal?

    9 A. Well, I can accept it, that he has pleaded

    10 guilty. But I don't know how ...

    11 Q. And in the light of the knowledge that he's

    12 accepted killing those people, do you condemn those

    13 killings?

    14 A. I don't know how to express myself.

    15 Q. Right. Would you wait there, please.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    17 Mr. Greaves.

    18 Mr. Tochilovsky, for the Office of the

    19 Prosecutor, is going to ask you some questions.

    20 Cross-examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:

    21 Q. Just a few questions about the financial

    22 assistance you received from Goran Jelisic. By the

    23 way, how much did he provide to you? How much money?

    24 A. He would always give me enough to be able to

    25 survive and to have something with which to feed my



  40. 1 family.

    2 Q. So how much?

    3 A. Well, 30 Deutschemarks, 50 Deutschemarks. It

    4 all depended. Sometimes I needed to buy medicines for

    5 my child, then he would pay for that. So I can't give

    6 you an exact figure.

    7 Q. Upon his return from Brcko, you met him in

    8 1993, after that, he had enough money to open his own

    9 business in Bijeljina, a bookstore; is that correct?

    10 He had a bookstore?

    11 A. I know that he had a bookstore, but I don't

    12 know otherwise, and I didn't know where he got his

    13 money from. I didn't pay attention to that.

    14 Q. Did he tell you that he had killed victims in

    15 a camp in Brcko and he had stolen money from those

    16 detainees in the camp?

    17 A. No. No, no, he didn't tell me.

    18 Q. And the money he gave you is the money from

    19 those dead victims in the camp. Did you realise that?

    20 A. No.

    21 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I have no further

    22 questions, Your Honours.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Judges may

    24 have some other questions. Judge Riad, who is to my

    25 right: Judge Riad?



  41. 1 Questioned by the Court:

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness DI. I

    3 can't say your name. Now, your husband is a Muslim

    4 too?

    5 A. My husband is not a pure Muslim. How can I

    6 explain it to you? His father is a Muslim and his

    7 mother is a Serb.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: And in that case, around you, in

    9 your region, would a person like that be considered

    10 Muslim, or Serb? You know, for instance, for some

    11 people --

    12 A. Well, more a Muslim. More a Muslim.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: He is more a Muslim? What was

    14 his relationship with Jelisic? Was Jelisic your

    15 friend, or your husband's friend? I mean, usually one

    16 of the partners has a friend and the other accepts

    17 them.

    18 A. Goran Jelisic and I went to school together,

    19 so he was my friend. After, when he got to know my

    20 husband, we were friends and visited each other's

    21 homes.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: And then he became a friend of

    23 your children, too? He loved your children?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: Is this one of his



  42. 1 characteristics, that he used to be kind to children,

    2 or was it specific for your family? And why did he

    3 love your family so much?

    4 A. Well, let me put it this way: Goran and I

    5 grew up together. We have known each other since we

    6 were ten years old. We went to school together. So we

    7 have spent a whole lifetime together, and I considered

    8 him to be a brother. He was a brother to me, almost.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: Did you tell your children --

    10 was it some kind of general attitude, he would love

    11 children in particular, a man who has got a fatherly

    12 instinct, especially to children?

    13 A. Yes, he loved children.

    14 JUDGE RIAD: Did you live in the same area

    15 where some of the crimes were committed, or you don't

    16 know anything about it?

    17 A. I don't know anything about it.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: Since you have known Jelisic all

    19 your life, did you follow up his career and what

    20 happened to him, what he was doing in life? Do you

    21 know something about it? Did he sometimes commit

    22 crimes? Did he sometimes -- apart from his love, of

    23 course, for your children, did he do something else in

    24 life?

    25 A. I don't know. I didn't follow it. What was



  43. 1 important to me was that whenever I saw him, we'd

    2 always have a chat. He would come, and as I have just

    3 said, I thought of him as a brother.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know anything about

    5 his life?

    6 A. Well, I know what he did in town and the kind

    7 of person he was towards others, what he was like with

    8 his friends.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know what he committed

    10 in life, was he once in gaol, did he do anything; you

    11 have no idea?

    12 A. [No audible response]

    13 JUDGE RIAD: You have no idea. Thank you.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me turn to

    15 Judge Rodrigues. Judge Rodrigues.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    17 morning, Witness DI.

    18 How many children do you have?

    19 A. Four.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] At the time

    21 in 1993, how many children did you have at that time?

    22 A. One.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said

    24 that, in your own words, "I know Mr. Jelisic very

    25 well," but you answered Judge Riad by saying that you



  44. 1 did not know whether Mr. Jelisic had been convicted by

    2 a court?

    3 A. That's right.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And you

    5 also said that Mr. Jelisic helped you a great deal,

    6 financially and materially. Was Mr. Jelisic a rich

    7 man?

    8 A. Well, Goran Jelisic, his family -- how can I

    9 explain this to you? They were a sort of middle-class

    10 family. They worked, his parents worked, he worked, so

    11 that they had a sort of standard -- medium standard of

    12 living; not too well but all right.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In 1993,

    14 what kind of work was Mr. Jelisic doing?

    15 A. Well, he didn't tell me about it in any

    16 details, that is to say, what he was doing, because

    17 there wasn't so much work to be had where he worked.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But you

    19 lived in the same city as Mr. Jelisic; is that

    20 correct?

    21 A. Yes, yes, that's correct, but I didn't move

    22 around much. That is to say, I spent most of my time

    23 at home and Goran would come and visit me at my home,

    24 so I didn't go about town much.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But was it



  45. 1 possible to know what Mr. Jelisic did for a job?

    2 A. Well, I didn't really know.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You knew

    4 Mr. Jelisic especially through the visits that he made

    5 to you, is that correct, when he came to your house?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In May

    8 1992, did you know what kind of job Mr. Jelisic had?

    9 A. No, no. I've just told you, I was a little

    10 further off from Bijeljina during that period.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Where were

    12 you?

    13 A. Several kilometres away. That is where the

    14 settlement is from Bijeljina. I don't want to give its

    15 name.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] A few

    17 kilometres. Well, what, a thousand kilometres, two

    18 kilometres, ten kilometres?

    19 A. Thirteen kilometres.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thirteen.

    21 So you said that you knew Mr. Jelisic very

    22 well, but there are all kinds of things that you don't

    23 know.

    24 I have another question. You told us that

    25 you went to school with him, that you know Jelisic very



  46. 1 well, that you had known him for a long time, that you

    2 were friends, he was like a brother to you. Could you

    3 tell us how Mr. Jelisic was raised? What kind of

    4 relationship did he have with his parents?

    5 A. Mr. Jelisic had quite normal relations with

    6 his parents. He was a very well-brought-up child. On

    7 the streets, at school, at home, his behaviour was

    8 always good.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] He was

    10 raised by his parents or was it by his grandmother?

    11 A. Mostly by his grandmother when he was small,

    12 a little bit -- that is to say, a little by the

    13 grandmother but more with his parents, as far as I

    14 know, because we were small then.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you knew

    16 Mr. Jelisic very well. Could you tell us why he was

    17 raised mostly by his grandmother?

    18 A. Because his parents worked.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My last

    20 question, Witness DI, is the following: I would like

    21 to go back to Mr. Greaves' question. Knowing that Mr.

    22 Jelisic admitted being guilty of various acts,

    23 including murder, of having killed at least 12 people,

    24 what is your opinion? Does that change your opinion?

    25 Is that a surprise in respect to you? Does that change



  47. 1 your opinion?

    2 A. My opinion of Goran -- my opinion of Goran

    3 hasn't changed, because Goran will always be what he

    4 was before for me.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But the

    6 more specific question that Mr. Greaves asked you is:

    7 "What is your position, what is your opinion?" Do you

    8 condemn the murders that Mr. Jelisic committed?

    9 A. I don't know how to express myself. Knowing

    10 Goran, I understand that he pleaded guilty, but I just

    11 can't accept it, that a person like that, with that

    12 kind of character, could have done anything like that.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps

    14 this potential for committing this type of acts was

    15 something you didn't know in Mr. Jelisic's personality?

    16 A. Well --

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Could you

    18 answer?

    19 A. Well, I'm telling you now, I just can't

    20 understand that Goran could have done anything like

    21 that.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think

    23 that was the answer that you gave Mr. Greaves, but I'm

    24 not going to insist on that question and I will stop

    25 here.



  48. 1 Thank you very much, Witness DI.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    3 Witness DI. I have no further questions to ask you

    4 either. Your testimony is complete. We're going to

    5 escort you out of the courtroom.

    6 Perhaps you would like to take a five or

    7 ten-minute break, Mr. Registrar.

    8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The next

    9 witness should be Witness DH.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Is he ready?

    11 We don't need a break, just the time it takes to escort

    12 the other witness out of the courtroom.

    13 Thank you, Witness DI. We wish you a good

    14 trip back home.

    15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    16 Sir. Thank you, Judge.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Goodbye.

    18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    19 [The witness withdrew]

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to

    21 take a five-minute break.

    22 --- Recess taken at 11.45 a.m.

    23 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

    25 seated. Have the accused brought in.



  49. 1 [The accused entered court]

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We apologise

    3 for the delay, which is my own personal fault.

    4 This is Witness -- what's the pseudonym?

    5 THE REGISTRAR: DH, Mr. President.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right,

    7 Witness DH. Please check to see that this is your name

    8 that's on the piece of paper. Please do not say it out

    9 loud; simply check to see that it is your name. You

    10 are going to take an oath.

    11 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: I solemnly declare that I will

    13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    14 truth

    15 WITNESS: WITNESS DH

    16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You

    18 may now be seated. Thank you for having come at the

    19 request of the Defence as a character witness for Goran

    20 Jelisic, the accused, accused by the Office of the

    21 Prosecutor of crimes against humanity and war crimes.

    22 He is sitting to your left in this courtroom.

    23 You are protected. You asked for protective

    24 measures, and this is why you are behind these

    25 screens. You have nothing to fear. Speak without fear



  50. 1 or hatred. Answer the Defence counsel's questions

    2 first, and then you will answer the Prosecutor's

    3 questions, and lastly the Judges'.

    4 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.

    5 Examined by Mr. Greaves:

    6 Q. Witness DH, would you please tell us your

    7 ethnic background.

    8 A. Serbian.

    9 Q. And can you tell us, please, when it was that

    10 you first met Goran Jelisic?

    11 A. Towards the end of May, beginning of June,

    12 1992.

    13 Q. Don't tell us anything of where you live or

    14 the area in which you live, but how was it that you

    15 came to meet him?

    16 A. I met Goran through my brother-in-law, or

    17 son-in-law, who lived across the River of Sava and was

    18 a friend of his, and one day he brought him to my house

    19 for coffee and a drink. We sat down, had a

    20 conversation, and this is how I met Goran.

    21 Q. After that, were you aware that he was living

    22 in the area in which you were living?

    23 A. Afterwards I found out that he had come from

    24 Bijeljina, and that at the time, he lived in that

    25 village, not far from me, across the Sava River.



  51. 1 Q. Did he begin to visit your home on more

    2 occasions?

    3 A. Yes, he would come every day with my

    4 son-in-law for coffee. He would go fishing on the Sava

    5 River, and he would bring me fish that he had caught,

    6 and this is how we became friends.

    7 Q. I want to ask you now, Witness DH, about the

    8 end of August 1992. At about that time, did Goran

    9 Jelisic come to your house on a more permanent basis?

    10 A. At the time, Goran lived in my house from the

    11 end of August until about mid-September. Since I have

    12 a large house, there was room for him to sleep there.

    13 We became friends. He would bring me fish every day.

    14 And he also had some stomach problems. He was quite

    15 agitated, anxious. And since I worked in the medical

    16 field, I would bring him medication and help him in

    17 this way.

    18 Q. During the time when he was staying in your

    19 house, did he talk to you about what he had been doing

    20 earlier that year?

    21 A. He told me first that he was taken as a

    22 prisoner on the Croatian front, that he was tortured,

    23 mistreated, and then he managed to escape. And after

    24 that, in Bijeljina -- no, in Brcko, he worked as a

    25 reserve policeman, in fact, as an ordinary policeman,



  52. 1 and that his superiors forced him to torture, kill

    2 people, and do all that. And he couldn't take it, and

    3 then they threatened to eliminate him, and this is why

    4 he was forced to run away.

    5 He said that he could not stand it, to

    6 torture those innocent people, to kill them; that was

    7 terrible for him. So he could not find any peace.

    8 This is why he was taking medication. He was having

    9 stomach troubles, vomiting, he couldn't sleep, he had

    10 pain in his stomach, and he kept saying that those

    11 people are innocent, they had not done anything to

    12 anyone.

    13 He would call on the telephone two or three

    14 times a day some people -- I don't know who he called;

    15 probably his superiors, and he would argue with them

    16 and tell them he could not continue doing that, he

    17 would not continue doing that, that those people were

    18 innocent. This is why he did not want to go back

    19 there, and he left Brcko and Bijelina.

    20 Q. Did you understand by what you heard from him

    21 that he had killed other people?

    22 A. Well, I did not understand that he killed

    23 those people, because at the time, Goran was just as

    24 young as my daughter, and I saw that he was a man -- he

    25 was a man who cried, who was taking medication to calm



  53. 1 him down, so I -- based on that, I concluded that if he

    2 had done something, he didn't do it on his own free

    3 will. And also he would not have fled if he had wanted

    4 to continue doing that.

    5 Q. Just to approach it slightly differently,

    6 Witness DH, he had told you that he had killed people

    7 as part of his work earlier that year; is that right?

    8 A. He didn't tell me that personally, but I

    9 heard from the conversations when he was making phone

    10 calls to Brcko or Bijelina. I don't know where he was

    11 making those phone calls to, and I don't know who he

    12 was talking to, but I heard that he was arguing with

    13 them. And based on those conversations, this is the

    14 conclusion that I made, but I didn't want to discuss it

    15 with him.

    16 Q. To you, did he ever express any remorse about

    17 what he had done?

    18 A. I stated that he cried a lot, and he was

    19 sorry for those people who, without any fault of

    20 theirs, were killed and tortured. And whether he was

    21 the one who killed them, or anybody else, I really

    22 cannot tell you. I could not tell you.

    23 Q. Did he eventually move from your house?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Where did he go to, without mentioning the



  54. 1 names of the people or villages, but did he go to a

    2 place nearby?

    3 A. Well, at the time while he was staying at our

    4 house, at one point he even found an apartment. He

    5 wanted to open up a shop and proceed with that, but he

    6 had not done it, although he wished -- I think he

    7 greatly desired to go back to his house. And he asked

    8 me how could I help him to cross without police, his

    9 police, arresting him, because they threatened to

    10 eliminate him.

    11 And then I already told you that I worked in

    12 the medical field, and we came up with the idea for me

    13 to go to the orthopaedics department and to take some

    14 plaster and take the nurse, bring the nurse who would

    15 put his leg into a cast and thus help him cross into

    16 his town.

    17 And that's what we did. I went to the nurse,

    18 and we took some plaster cast, and on my balcony, we

    19 put his leg into the cast. I think he didn't even wait

    20 to make sure that it was dry enough. He simply called

    21 the cab, got into the cab, and I didn't see him

    22 afterwards.

    23 Q. What was the purpose of putting a cast on his

    24 leg? What was your reasoning behind that?

    25 A. Well, he wanted to go back to Bijeljina or



  55. 1 Brcko. I don't know where. Probably to Bijeljina.

    2 And the purpose of putting the cast was so that his

    3 police at the checkpoint, at the crossing, would not

    4 arrest him, because he wanted to show that he had hurt

    5 his leg. And I don't know exactly why, but he asked me

    6 to help him in this way, to do something of this kind,

    7 to help him to go back. As I said, he left, and I

    8 haven't heard anything of him afterwards.

    9 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Thank you. Would you

    10 wait there, please.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    12 Mr. Greaves, for being concise.

    13 Turning to the Office of the Prosecutor now,

    14 who is going to ask you the questions it deems

    15 appropriate. Mr. Nice, please proceed.

    16 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

    17 Q. How long altogether did you know this man?

    18 A. From the end of May until mid-September 1992.

    19 Q. The first passage of time when he called at

    20 your house, he was introduced really by your

    21 son-in-law; is that right?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Where is your son-in-law now?

    24 A. In the village across from the Sava River.

    25 Q. And he's fit and able to travel?



  56. 1 A. My son-in-law or who? Can you please --

    2 Q. Your son-in-law, he's fit and able to travel?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. He, of course, can give a better account than

    5 you of how it was that he met Jelisic and how Jelisic

    6 came to knock at your door; would that be true?

    7 A. Well, he brought him. They were friends in

    8 that village. I don't know who Jelisic came to visit

    9 in that village. But this is where they met, became

    10 friends, so he would come and visit me daily. And as I

    11 said, they went fishing on the Sava, and this is how he

    12 spent his free time, relaxed. And since I loved fish,

    13 he would come every day and bring me fish, and he would

    14 stay, have coffee, and this is how it went until he

    15 came and moved into my house.

    16 Q. So if I understand it correctly, no

    17 explanation was given for the sudden appearance on the

    18 scene of this man at the end of May. The man, however,

    19 appeared to be perfectly normal, relaxed, and happy at

    20 that time?

    21 A. You have Goran in mind?

    22 Q. Yes.

    23 A. Can you please repeat the question? I didn't

    24 quite understand that.

    25 Q. Of course. I'll break it into two parts.



  57. 1 First, no explanation was given for the

    2 sudden appearance, on your local scene, of Jelisic; he

    3 just appeared as a friend of your son-in-law?

    4 A. Yes. When he came as a friend of my

    5 son-in-law, he told me that he had been taken in --

    6 that he had been imprisoned in the Croatian front, that

    7 he was tortured there, that he managed to flee from

    8 that front. Then later on, he told me that he was in

    9 the reserve police as an ordinary policeman in Brcko,

    10 and then he told me that his superiors --

    11 Q. I'm going to come to all that in a minute. I

    12 want to do things in order, you see.

    13 A. All right.

    14 Q. So when he first came at the end of May, he

    15 was happy and content and able to go fishing and be

    16 just an ordinary friend of your son-in-law; would that

    17 be right?

    18 A. He did not look content and normal. As I've

    19 already mentioned, he was very anxious. He was taking

    20 medication. He had stomach pain. And then later on,

    21 he told me that he was in the reserve police.

    22 Q. But to begin with, he was able to function,

    23 fishing and going out and talking to you, in an

    24 ordinary way?

    25 A. Yes, when -- after he had taken some



  58. 1 medication to calm himself down. Fishing helped him

    2 relax, so that he wouldn't think about what was going

    3 on there.

    4 Q. Now, at a later stage he moved into your

    5 house. Was that because he needed somewhere to hide?

    6 A. Yes. He had no need to hide, but he asked

    7 me, since my house was large and I had plenty of room,

    8 he asked me if he could stay there. And as I said, he

    9 also wanted, in this place where I lived, to open some

    10 kind of a shop, and that would make things easier for

    11 him, since he visited the village daily.

    12 Q. How many kilometres, roughly, is your village

    13 from Brcko?

    14 A. From Brcko, approximately 90, a hundred

    15 kilometres. I'm not quite sure.

    16 Q. By the time of Jelisic's arrival in your

    17 village, had rumours, stories, news reports of the

    18 killings in Brcko reached your village?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. When did rumours, or stories, or news reports

    21 about the atrocities in Brcko first reach your village,

    22 madam?

    23 A. Well, once we learned anything, it was from

    24 television. And I don't normally read the newspapers,

    25 so I typically just followed television and radio, and



  59. 1 they didn't really go into great detail, not enough for

    2 me to learn more about this.

    3 Q. Are you telling us that even at the distance

    4 of 90 or a hundred kilometres from Brcko, the killings

    5 there were something of which you remained ignorant for

    6 years?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Are you telling us that you never heard of

    9 the photographs of the killings at Brcko and never

    10 heard that the man Jelisic, known as Adolf, was

    11 associated with those killings?

    12 A. No, no.

    13 Q. Not even until this very moment when you're

    14 sitting here in this court, you've never heard of those

    15 things?

    16 A. Well, now when I was called to come here to

    17 give testimony, then, of course, I had heard by that

    18 time, and, yes, I'm sorry. I also, at one occasion in

    19 Zvornik, I'm not quite sure where, I read in the

    20 newspapers Goran Jelisic and another man were mentioned

    21 as -- I'm not quite sure how to put this -- that they

    22 had committed killings and all that. But that was a

    23 brief report, just a paragraph, and that was all. And

    24 later on, I did not see anything in the newspapers

    25 about him.



  60. 1 Recently, I heard something on the

    2 television, that he was acquitted on the count of

    3 genocide, and I just happened to turn the television on

    4 at the time. And I heard it on the Bosnian television

    5 programme, I heard this brief report, and that was all.

    6 Q. So you appear to have learned something of

    7 Jelisic after the time when he left your home, and you

    8 learned that he was accused of killings?

    9 A. Well, I learned of this. As I said, I can't

    10 exactly tell you. Maybe a year or year and a half

    11 ago. And then the next time, just now when I gave a

    12 statement to the attorney and when they asked me

    13 whether Goran stayed at my house or not and how that

    14 happened. But prior to that, no, I didn't know about

    15 this. Moreover, I had not heard or seen anything of

    16 Goran after he had left my house.

    17 Q. Everything you told us so far -- I have a few

    18 more questions to ask you, but everything you've told

    19 us so far fits with Goran using your house as a place

    20 to hide away, doesn't it?

    21 A. Well, as I said, he told me that he was a

    22 member of the reserve police, that his superiors or

    23 somebody else made him, forced him, to do the killings,

    24 and that he could not stand it and had to flee because

    25 he was threatened that -- they threatened that they



  61. 1 would eliminate him if he didn't follow orders. And

    2 this is probably why he fled; not to my house, because

    3 I didn't know him prior to this, but to the other

    4 place.

    5 Q. I'm grateful for that last answer, because

    6 it's the thing I was going to turn to.

    7 Let me just make sure I've got it accurate.

    8 "They threatened that they would eliminate him if he

    9 didn't follow orders." Does that relate to the

    10 killings that he apparently may have been involved in?

    11 A. I don't know. I couldn't tell you that. I

    12 don't know what this relates to. Why did they want to

    13 eliminate him? All I know is that he cried. He was

    14 taking the medication, the tranquillisers. He was

    15 saying that he could not kill innocent people, torture

    16 them, and this is why he ran away from there, so that

    17 they wouldn't force him to carry out the orders.

    18 Q. You said, when you first answered questions

    19 to the Defence attorney, that he was an ordinary

    20 policeman in Brcko. Did he really tell you that, that

    21 he had worked as an ordinary --

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. -- policeman?

    24 A. He told me that, yes. He told me he was in

    25 the reserve police and he worked as an ordinary



  62. 1 policeman. This is what he told me. I don't know

    2 what, in fact, he was.

    3 Q. It's not a question, then, on his account, of

    4 his having been taken specially to Brcko to perform the

    5 duties of dealing with Muslims or anything like that?

    6 A. I don't know why he was taken to Brcko or

    7 what transpired there. As I said, Brcko is 90

    8 kilometres away from my village, so I really don't know

    9 what took place there; just the little bit that I heard

    10 on television. I never even visited Brcko, nor even

    11 Bijeljina.

    12 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise

    13 to my learned colleague. If I could address the

    14 Judges.

    15 Goran is not feeling well, so he would like

    16 to know if he could leave the courtroom.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, Goran

    18 Jelisic can leave the courtroom. Has he given

    19 authorisation that the Defence will continue?

    20 All right, guard, have the accused taken

    21 out.

    22 THE ACCUSED JELISIC: [Interpretation] Thank

    23 you, Your Honour.

    24 [The accused withdrew]

    25 MR. NICE:



  63. 1 Q. You told us that Jelisic told you that as an

    2 ordinary policeman, he was forced to torture and kill

    3 people. Let's deal with the torture first.

    4 What torture did he have to perform on

    5 people?

    6 A. I truly didn't ask him that, nor would I

    7 muster the courage to ask him that. I simply saw that

    8 this caused him a great deal of pain, and he cried and

    9 took the medication, so I did not want to discuss this

    10 topic with him. He simply mentioned this once in a

    11 conversation, and then I never touched upon this

    12 subject again.

    13 To tell you the truth, I wasn't interested in

    14 it because I thought that he was a young person, and he

    15 needed one day to establish his family, and I could see

    16 on him that it was difficult for him. This was not --

    17 it did not suit him. He did not give an impression of

    18 that kind of person, of young man.

    19 Q. This man could have been lying to you through

    20 his teeth, madam, couldn't he? You would have no way

    21 of knowing whether what he was telling you was true or

    22 false?

    23 A. I had no way of knowing, but that's his

    24 business, whether he lied or not. I really can't tell

    25 you about that. And I didn't want to go into this any



  64. 1 further. I already felt terrible as it was when that

    2 war started, and I simply felt terrible. People did

    3 not do anything to cause this. This was simply

    4 imposed. And I did not want to talk to him about

    5 this. Whether he lied or not, that's his business.

    6 Q. But he told you that he had tortured people,

    7 and --

    8 A. He didn't tell me that he tortured people.

    9 He didn't tell me that he tortured people. He said

    10 that his superiors forced him or pushed him into

    11 torturing people, but whether he himself tortured or

    12 killed people, I don't know. He simply said that he

    13 had to leave because they threatened to eliminate him

    14 if he did not do it.

    15 Q. Do you have any idea what form of torture he

    16 was referring to? I'll just help you to this extent:

    17 The defendant has been interviewed by investigators at

    18 great length, and he will barely accept that he even

    19 beat anyone with a stick. He occasionally accepts that

    20 he hit people with a stick, but he never says he went

    21 any further than that.

    22 Now, when he told you he was torturing

    23 people, what did you have in mind? What did he

    24 indicate?

    25 A. Well, he didn't tell me that he tortured



  65. 1 people nor that he killed people. He didn't tell me

    2 that. He said -- and I heard this also from the

    3 conversations, as I mentioned before, the

    4 conversations, the telephone calls that he made from my

    5 house two or three times a day, I don't know who,

    6 probably superiors. In the telephone conversations he

    7 was saying that he could not torture the people, that

    8 he felt sorry for those people. And this is why he

    9 fled, because he could not stand this.

    10 Q. So you've come to my next question already.

    11 The phone calls were made by him, and yet he made them

    12 in your presence; are you telling us that?

    13 A. Yes. I was in the house. I was taking care

    14 of the household when he made those calls and argued

    15 with these people, I don't know whom. He was saying,

    16 "Why are you linking this to me? Why are you

    17 burdening me with this?"

    18 I don't know what the people were saying to

    19 him on the other end. I really don't know about that.

    20 But I heard what he said, and I can confirm that he

    21 cried a lot, was continuously taking tranquillisers,

    22 had stomachaches, could not sleep at night, and the

    23 only relaxation were really the trips to the Sava

    24 River, where he could stop thinking about this.

    25 Q. So if I understand your testimony correctly,



  66. 1 although he hadn't specifically admitted to you killing

    2 or specifically admitted to you torturing, he did say

    3 that other people were trying to force him to do these

    4 things, and then he made these phone calls? Would that

    5 be accurate?

    6 A. Yes. He made the phone calls, yes, saying

    7 that he didn't do it and that he could not do it. And

    8 once again, he was saying those people were innocent,

    9 they were not guilty of anything, that he himself was

    10 not guilty when he was on the front in Croatia and was

    11 later tortured and mistreated for that. And he didn't

    12 really know the people that tortured him at the time,

    13 and why would he now torture these people, who really

    14 had had nothing to do with this war, the innocent

    15 people?

    16 Q. He made no effort to keep these telephone

    17 calls private? Made no effort to stop you hearing

    18 them?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. And, of course, you couldn't --

    21 A. Perhaps he also had some conversations when

    22 he went outside of my house, fishing, but these calls

    23 that I was referring to were made from my house, and I

    24 don't know anything about other conversations. I don't

    25 think that he made other calls outside of my house.



  67. 1 Q. You never heard a phone call coming to your

    2 house? These were all outgoing phone calls? That, I

    3 think, is what you're --

    4 A. Yes, he made the calls from my house. Yes.

    5 He called from my house. Nobody called him because

    6 nobody knew where he was staying. When he was making

    7 the phone calls, he did not say where he was calling

    8 from.

    9 Q. You don't know if there was anybody at the

    10 other end of the line at all, do you, madam? Because

    11 you didn't hear anyone.

    12 A. I heard something from the other end. I

    13 believe that when you make phone calls, that someone

    14 else standing nearby can hear the voices on the other

    15 end. Yes, I did hear the calls, and I heard him

    16 replying. Of course, I don't know what they were

    17 saying on the other end. I heard him talking to

    18 somebody, but who he was talking to, I really don't

    19 know.

    20 Q. Can you really tell us that after all these

    21 years, on an event that passed in a few weeks, you can

    22 now tell us that you could hear someone at the other

    23 end of the line, madam? Or have you seen the

    24 proposition that I'm about to put to you?

    25 A. I heard from the other end that -- voices.



  68. 1 That's natural. Even now, if you were to take a

    2 telephone and talk to somebody, we would hear that

    3 there was somebody on the other end.

    4 Q. You see, all that you have described, will

    5 you accept, fits with Jelisic creating the image of an

    6 innocent man and using you as a potential witness in

    7 due course, doesn't it?

    8 A. I don't know how to reply to this. I saw

    9 that he was an innocent young person. I cannot

    10 comprehend that a person can cry, and pretend to be

    11 anxious, not be able to sleep, and at the same time do

    12 these things on his own free will. I simply could not

    13 understand this.

    14 Q. You see, his whereabouts once he was in your

    15 house need not have been known to the so-called

    16 superiors, need they? Nobody knew where he was.

    17 A. Yes, nobody knew where he was, at least I

    18 believe that he didn't say to anyone where he was,

    19 where he was making the phone calls from.

    20 Q. If he wanted to escape from these people, he

    21 gives no reason for ringing them up and telling them

    22 anything about himself, does he?

    23 A. Well, I told you that he fled because they

    24 wanted to eliminate him for failing to carry out

    25 orders, and this is why he escaped here, to this area.



  69. 1 I repeat that he said that he felt sorry for those

    2 people, innocent people who didn't cause the war, just

    3 like no other individuals, the people themselves,

    4 didn't really cause the war. We were not at fault,

    5 just like we were not at fault with this other war, the

    6 war in Serbia and Yugoslavia.

    7 Q. This man has been examined by others. It

    8 will be for the Judges to decide in due course, but he

    9 may be a manipulative man who uses people. All you've

    10 described is his really using you as someone who can be

    11 made into a witness. Do you accept that?

    12 A. No. I think that maybe he thought it would

    13 never come to this, that he would be brought before the

    14 court or something like that. Why would he -- and now

    15 that he is detained, it is only natural that one seeks

    16 anybody who can speak to his defence, to say what one

    17 knows and to confirm what he did in my house. And as

    18 far as the rest is concerned, I really don't know

    19 anything about it.

    20 Q. He certainly was capable of being

    21 manipulative in relation to the plaster on his leg, for

    22 you can explain that there was no injury to the leg at

    23 all, was there? The plaster cast was entirely a sham.

    24 A. Yes, that plaster was a false one. But he

    25 came up with this idea when we were talking about how



  70. 1 could he cross the border without those people of his

    2 arresting him, because they were threatening to

    3 eliminate him. So this is how he came up with this

    4 idea to put his healthy leg into a plaster cast to help

    5 him cross the border and to make it seem as though he

    6 broke the leg, or did something to it. I'm not quite

    7 sure what.

    8 But he really, truly wanted to go back, and I

    9 know that he was saying to those people on the phone,

    10 "I am not guilty. I will come back one day and prove

    11 that I'm not guilty."

    12 This is how it was, and I don't know what

    13 else to tell you. I don't know if you have -- if you

    14 have any other questions, please go ahead.

    15 Q. The shop that he was going to buy, how much

    16 would that have cost? Any idea?

    17 A. He didn't want to buy. He wanted to lease it

    18 and to open a sort of a general store. I know it was

    19 in a certain street where he, in the end, never even

    20 went to. Moreover, maybe he paid a lease, rent to the

    21 owner of that shop. Somebody -- later on, he left, as

    22 I said, in mid-September; he left and never came back.

    23 That shop was never opened, in fact. So that's all I

    24 can tell you.

    25 Q. Did he tell you where he had the money, as a



  71. 1 reserve policeman, to open a shop?

    2 A. I didn't ask him that. I really don't know.

    3 I don't know whether it was his parents who wanted to

    4 help him, or somebody else. I really didn't ask him.

    5 But when the shops are typically opened in our area,

    6 people usually do it through payment in instalments.

    7 They simply pay in 15 days, in a month, or in two,

    8 because typically, once you sell the goods, then you

    9 are able to make some instalment payments. At least

    10 this is the typical practice in our area, and I don't

    11 know how it is done here.

    12 Q. So he didn't tell you, did he, about having

    13 either the proceeds of previous crime, because he's a

    14 man who'd had committed offences of dishonesty with

    15 cheques, he didn't tell you anything about that, did

    16 he?

    17 A. No, no.

    18 Q. [Previous translation continues]... with

    19 dishonesty, would you, madam?

    20 A. Well, that's right, and I don't believe that

    21 it was him and that he's a dishonest person. Where he

    22 got the money and all that, I really don't know. I

    23 don't know that he had any money, how much money he

    24 had. I know that I bought him the medicines for his

    25 stomach and the tranquillisers which I brought from the



  72. 1 hospital.

    2 Q. He didn't tell you that he got money from the

    3 Muslims who were detained at the camp, many of whom

    4 were murdered for absolutely no reason, their money

    5 being taken off them? He didn't tell you about that,

    6 and again you wouldn't believe that, would you?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. You see --

    9 A. No, he didn't tell me at all anything about

    10 that. We didn't discuss anything like that at all.

    11 And as I say, he -- well, regarding that topic, the war

    12 and those people and the innocent people that he was

    13 sorry for, we didn't talk much about that because he

    14 wanted to calm down and not to have to think about

    15 things like that. So, in fact, that was the topic that

    16 we discussed least.

    17 Q. And you wouldn't believe, would you, that he

    18 would be capable of taking money from Muslims in the

    19 circumstances I've just described?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. The only thing he did make quite clear, one

    22 way or another, was that the people whose killings were

    23 being discussed on the phone, the people whom he was

    24 being persuaded to torture and kill, were people who,

    25 to his knowledge, were completely innocent?



  73. 1 A. Those people who forced him to do things, to

    2 kill, to torture the people, as he told me, those were

    3 his superiors, and from that reserve police force, he

    4 was not a boss of any kind. He just said he was an

    5 ordinary policeman.

    6 Q. The victims, to his knowledge, were

    7 completely innocent?

    8 A. Well, I say once again, he didn't tell me

    9 that he had killed anybody, but he said -- and he cried

    10 and said that he couldn't kill and torture and abuse

    11 innocent people who were not guilty of anything and to

    12 torture them. And I've said many times that he kept

    13 crying, that he could find no peace, and that he had to

    14 take the medicaments to calm himself, that he could

    15 find no peace because of his superiors, whom he kept

    16 ringing up and kept telling them that he could not take

    17 it any more and that he had to leave. That's all I

    18 know.

    19 MR. NICE: Thank you.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think we're

    21 going in circles here, to some extent. I say this for

    22 both the parties, Defence and Prosecution.

    23 In character testimony, given the number of

    24 witnesses called by the Defence, and I say this for the

    25 Prosecution as well, we could probably limit the number



  74. 1 of questions. The witnesses come to talk about what

    2 they've seen, a fact, an act, and then explain what

    3 they've seen. But then move quickly.

    4 This Witness DH has already said everything

    5 that had to be said. The rest is just some comments to

    6 be made or additions to be made, and I think that we

    7 can then go on.

    8 Do you have anything that you would like to

    9 supplement, Mr. Greaves, in respect of what the

    10 Prosecutor said somewhat lengthily? Rapidly, please,

    11 Mr. Greaves.

    12 MR. GREAVES: I have two matters in

    13 re-examination which I wish to put.

    14 Re-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    15 Q. Witness DH, you were asked by my learned

    16 friend for the Prosecution as to whether or not you had

    17 heard of atrocities committed in Brcko. Without

    18 identifying the area in which you live, in which of the

    19 constituent republics of the former Yugoslavia do you

    20 live?

    21 A. In Serbia.

    22 Q. In the past, has Serbian television carried

    23 extensive reporting of alleged atrocities committed by

    24 Serbs during the course of the war?

    25 A. Well, the television did inform, but I don't



  75. 1 watch television much or the press. The television did

    2 say that there was fighting going on in Teocak -- I

    3 don't know where that is -- in Tuzla, in Zvornik, in

    4 Majevica, in Brcko, Bijeljina, that kind of thing.

    5 They mentioned those places, but I don't even know

    6 where those places are.

    7 Q. You were asked about Goran Jelisic's

    8 financial arrangements. When he was with you, did he

    9 pay you any rent?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. And at that time, was he in a position to pay

    12 you any rent, as far as you knew?

    13 A. Well, believe me, I didn't even ask that of

    14 him; nor do I know whether he was able to pay, in a

    15 position to pay, or not. It never entered my head to

    16 ask him to pay me. I said that I had taken him in

    17 because he was a friend of my son-in-law's. There were

    18 other young men there from that place, and that's it.

    19 I didn't even try to ask him to pay rent. I

    20 wouldn't -- it would never come into my head to do so;

    21 nor would I take any money from him.

    22 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Witness DH.

    23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're

    24 welcome.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Judge Riad.



  76. 1 Judge Rodrigues. I have no questions either.

    2 Thank you, Witness DH. You've taken a long

    3 trip, and we are appreciative of that. I think that

    4 you've said everything you had to say, and now you can

    5 return home.

    6 We're going to adjourn, and we will resume at

    7 2.30.

    8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask Your

    9 Honours something? May I see Goran Jelisic, because

    10 after 1992, from September onwards, I have never seen

    11 him. Is there any possibility for me to see him?

    12 [Trial Chamber confers]

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The request is

    14 not granted, madam. Jelisic is in the detention unit.

    15 He was declared guilty but has not yet been convicted

    16 or acquitted.

    17 If the rules at the detention unit allow

    18 visits, the registrar will tell you. Is that

    19 possible?

    20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes. A

    21 request has to be made to meet with Goran Jelisic at

    22 the detention unit.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] But in order to

    24 give you authorisation now in front of the Judges, that

    25 is out of the question.



  77. 1 Mr. Greaves, did you want to say something?

    2 MR. GREAVES: No. I was merely going to

    3 assist Your Honour, that we're well aware of the

    4 present procedure by which people can see the

    5 defendant, and Your Honour is entirely right. It is a

    6 matter within the aegis of the Registry.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    8 Mr. Greaves, thank you for your assistance, and try to

    9 help the legitimate request that we understand is made

    10 by the witness. But I'm sure that you'll understand

    11 the Judges' position, who must be impartial in the

    12 proceedings all the way to the end, to the point their

    13 decision is issued.

    14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1 p.m.

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  78. 1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now

    3 resume the hearing. Please be seated. Have the

    4 accused brought in.

    5 [The accused entered court]

    6 [Closed session]

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



  79. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 pages 2677-2685 redacted - closed session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  1. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 [Open session]

    20 [The witness entered court]

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness DD,

    22 that is what we're going to call you. Do you hear me?

    23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] First, check

    25 your names on the piece of paper that you're being



  2. 1 shown. Don't say them. We want to be sure that that

    2 is your name.

    3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    5 Remain standing and take an oath. Please proceed.

    6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    7 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    8 and nothing but the truth.

    9 WITNESS: WITNESS DD

    10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    12 Witness DD. You may now be seated.

    13 You are in front of Judges of the

    14 International Criminal Tribunal. You have come here at

    15 the request of Goran Jelisic's Defence counsel. Goran

    16 Jelisic, who has been accused of war crimes and crimes

    17 against humanity, is on your left in this courtroom.

    18 As I'm sure has been explained to you, you're

    19 first to answer Defence counsel's questions,

    20 Mr. Greaves' questions, and then the Prosecutor's, and

    21 finally the Judges, if they have any questions they

    22 wish to ask you.

    23 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.

    24 MR. GREAVES: Does Your Honour wish me to

    25 wait until the blinds are open, as we're in open



  3. 1 session?

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, that's

    3 correct.

    4 The protected measures you requested,

    5 Witness DD, have been granted. Do not worry. This is

    6 a public hearing, but your facial image has been

    7 distorted, so there is nothing to fear.

    8 MR. GREAVES: I think we're nearly there, so

    9 I'll start, if I may.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We are missing

    11 one blind, but I suppose we could just get one more up

    12 there.

    13 MR. GREAVES: I see the usher has a modern

    14 technological device for opening blinds.

    15 Thank you very much, Your Honour.

    16 Examined by Mr. Greaves:

    17 Q. Witness DD, would you be so kind, please, as

    18 to tell us what your ethnic background is?

    19 A. I'm a Muslim, Bosniak Muslim.

    20 Q. How long have you known the defendant in this

    21 case, Goran Jelisic?

    22 A. I'm not quite clear on the question. You

    23 mean the years, how many years, or something else?

    24 I've known him since he was a young man.

    25 Q. Do you know his parents?



  4. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. How was it that you would come into contact

    3 normally with Goran Jelisic?

    4 A. Well, as I'm a sportsman in town and deal

    5 with sports, I had a player and I was coach in

    6 Bijeljina, and I had contacts with Goran, who would

    7 always come to the matches, whether it was handball or

    8 volleyball, as a young boy from the economics school.

    9 He was a sportsman with -- he would come with his

    10 friends, and I got to know him well there.

    11 Q. Were you able to observe him in the company

    12 of other young men of his age?

    13 A. Yes. He had friends, but he liked sport, and

    14 he would come to attend the seniors' training sessions

    15 in our town.

    16 Q. And the kind of friends that he had, were

    17 they people of his own race, Serbian, or were they

    18 Muslim, or was it a mixed group of friends?

    19 A. It was a mixed group of friends. They were

    20 also friends with my own son, who is the same age as

    21 him.

    22 Q. I'll ask you some more questions about your

    23 son in due course, but as far as your observations of

    24 the defendant were concerned at this time, did you see

    25 any conduct on his part that gave you cause for concern



  5. 1 that he was behaving badly towards other people of

    2 other racial groups?

    3 A. No. Never.

    4 Q. Did there come a time during the war in

    5 Bosnia-Herzegovina when you got to know Goran Jelisic

    6 rather better?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Was that after he moved into your

    9 neighbourhood?

    10 A. No, we knew each other before that.

    11 Q. I understand that, but did he move closer to

    12 your home at some stage?

    13 A. Yes, he did, in the course of the war.

    14 Q. Can you remember which year that was?

    15 A. I think it was in '93, the second half of

    16 1993.

    17 Q. After he'd moved closer to your home, did you

    18 get to know him rather better at that time?

    19 A. Yes, (redacted)

    20 (redacted).

    21 Q. And would he come to your house?

    22 A. Yes, he would. He would come to collect my

    23 son because, as I say, they were the same age and were

    24 friends.

    25 Q. When he came to see your son, would he spend



  6. 1 time in your house and sit and talk with you?

    2 A. Generally he would go to sports events or

    3 fishing, but we would sit down and have a coffee in the

    4 yard.

    5 Q. Although -- did Goran know that you were a

    6 Muslim?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Did he ever treat you in a way that offended

    9 your background?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Were there other Muslims living in your

    12 neighbourhood?

    13 A. Yes, a lot of them.

    14 Q. Did Goran have contact with those people, as

    15 far as you know?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Are you aware from any of those people of any

    18 conduct towards them that was unpleasant because of

    19 their ethnic background?

    20 A. No. I never heard about or learned anything

    21 like that, (redacted).

    22 Q. Do you have a lady neighbour called -- I

    23 think (redacted), or -- is that the correct pronunciation?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. How close to your home does she live?



  7. 1 A. (redacted)

    2 (redacted).

    3 Q. Was there an incident that occurred at her

    4 house involving some damage?

    5 A. No, not between Goran and them. Somebody

    6 else caused an incident, and then Goran did something

    7 nice with respect to them, something quite honourable.

    8 Because the woman is quite poor, and the windows were

    9 broken, so he hired somebody to repair it.

    10 Q. First of all --

    11 A. Paid for somebody to repair it.

    12 Q. The lady concerned, is she Muslim?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. What was it that happened at the house that

    15 caused the windows to be broken?

    16 A. Somebody during the night was passing by in

    17 the car and threw a bomb into the yard. We heard it,

    18 and we got up to see what happened. The windows had

    19 been broken. I don't know where Goran was at the

    20 moment, but he came just like we did, the rest of us,

    21 and he saw what had happened, and then he looked for

    22 someone to repair the windows, and he paid for the

    23 repair.

    24 Q. And the craftsman who came to repair the

    25 windows, did he levy any charge for his work?



  8. 1 A. He didn't want to charge for his labour. He

    2 only charged for the material, for glass.

    3 Q. As far as you know, did Goran know that this

    4 lady was Muslim?

    5 A. Yes, yes.

    6 Q. When was it, Witness DD, that you first

    7 became aware of Goran Jelisic being in trouble over

    8 alleged killings?

    9 A. Do you mean which year? I learned it through

    10 newspapers, through media. Television, newspapers.

    11 Q. In which year would be helpful, please,

    12 Witness DD.

    13 A. I think it was after the war, the war in

    14 Bosnia.

    15 Q. And between 1993 and the time of his arrest,

    16 did he continue to go out with your son and take your

    17 son out?

    18 A. Yes. He did. He took him in a car to Banja

    19 Luka, Zvornik, Doboj. They went to Bijeljina, sports

    20 matches, and they would typically, on Saturday and

    21 Sunday, go fishing as well. But nothing ever

    22 happened. He would always bring my son back on time,

    23 and everything had always been all right.

    24 Q. And did you ever worry, because of the

    25 conditions that prevailed at the time, about where they



  9. 1 were going and things like that? Or did you trust

    2 Goran to look after him?

    3 A. I trusted Goran, because prior to that,

    4 nothing had ever happened, and I knew him before as a

    5 nice and honest boy. As a parent, of course, I had to

    6 worry, because they would stay late at night; the

    7 matches would last till 10.00 or 11.00 at night. But

    8 thank God nothing ever happened, either to my son or

    9 anyone else.

    10 Q. As the Tribunal knows, this defendant has

    11 pleaded guilty to the killing of a number of Muslims

    12 during 1992, May 1992. Does that surprise you, given

    13 the person that you had got to know over a number of

    14 years?

    15 A. Yes, because I didn't know him as such, him

    16 or his parents.

    17 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honours give me a

    18 moment, please.

    19 [Defence counsel confer]

    20 MR. GREAVES:

    21 Q. Yes, thank you very much, Witness DD. Would

    22 you be so kind as to wait there, please, and answer any

    23 questions.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    25 Mr. Greaves.



  10. 1 Mr. Nice, on behalf of the Prosecutor, is now

    2 going to ask you some questions.

    3 Mr. Nice, please proceed.

    4 MR. NICE: Thank you.

    5 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

    6 Q. Witness DD, before the war, Jelisic got on

    7 with young people of all types in much the same way

    8 that everyone else got on with people of all ethnic

    9 types; would that be correct?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Did you know him personally? Did you see him

    12 between 1989 and 1992?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Regularly?

    15 A. Considering -- yes, considering my age and

    16 Goran's age. I would see him with my son in town, and

    17 because of my job, I would see him at the matches,

    18 various sports activities. We certainly couldn't see

    19 each other every day.

    20 Q. Were you entirely unaware of the criminal

    21 practices that he was developing over that period of

    22 time?

    23 A. I did not understand your question. Was I

    24 aware of ...

    25 Q. He never revealed to you, and it was never



  11. 1 revealed to you by anyone else, that he was engaging in

    2 crime?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. To quite a significant extent. He was

    5 embezzling money in substantial sums. You never knew

    6 of that?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. So that when you describe him as an honest

    9 person, if it be the case -- and he's accepted this --

    10 if it be the case that he was involved in crime between

    11 1989 and 1992, he kept that from you, and you didn't

    12 detect it in him?

    13 A. Let me repeat once again: Considering our

    14 different age, we weren't really friends. I would see

    15 him at the matches, and I would basically -- I knew him

    16 through the matches, through somebody who was

    17 participating and attending. I did not know anything

    18 about the criminal activities.

    19 Q. And you weren't aware at that time of any

    20 drug or alcohol problem that he had?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. In 1993, he and you were living -- you

    23 haven't given the town, but I think we can give the

    24 town without revealing your identity -- was it in

    25 Bijeljina?



  12. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. He had no difficulties living there. He

    3 wasn't under threat of any kind that you were aware of?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. And he said absolutely nothing to you about

    6 what he'd done in Brcko himself?

    7 A. No, never.

    8 MR. NICE: Thank you.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I would like to

    10 thank Mr. Nice for his concision.

    11 Mr. Greaves, do you want to supplement

    12 something in respect of the questions that the

    13 Prosecutor asked?

    14 MR. GREAVES: I have no questions which I

    15 wish to put in re-examination.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let

    17 me turn to my colleagues.

    18 Judge Riad?

    19 Questioned by the Court:

    20 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Witness DD.

    21 Could you look at me? I'm talking to you.

    22 A. Good afternoon.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: Please help me understand the

    24 essence of your testimony, not the details.

    25 In essence, you want to tell us that Jelisic



  13. 1 mixed up with people of other ethnic descendance. He

    2 mixed up with Muslims, with Croats, and he had no

    3 discrimination; is that right?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: Did this happen before '92 or

    6 continue after '92?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, what? Did it continue

    9 after '92, or you believe -- before '92, or it

    10 continued after '92?

    11 A. Continued after '92 as well.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: Have you been in contact with

    13 him all the time? Did you follow up his activities

    14 after '92, before and after '92?

    15 A. Before '92, I told you under what

    16 circumstances we met in those times. And after '92, I

    17 would see him as well. Since it was wartime, I had --

    18 I was assigned certain work assignments, work duties,

    19 so I would see Goran in my free time. But he continued

    20 to be friends with my son and take him to matches,

    21 sports matches, and he continued to be friendly with

    22 all ethnic groups, as far as I could see, in view of

    23 the fact that I was fairly busy at the time myself.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: I just want some precision. You

    25 could see him, but did you know his activities, or you



  14. 1 just saw him with your son? When you were asked by the

    2 Prosecutor about his activities between '89 and '92,

    3 you didn't know anything about it, so what was

    4 exactly --

    5 A. No.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: -- the relationship? It's just

    7 seeing him with his son? Or following, did you know

    8 his parents, to start with?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: What were his parents and what

    11 was his life with his parents?

    12 A. His father worked, and I think he's still

    13 working at an office, and mother as well, but they had

    14 quite a solid life. I know his parents well. We live

    15 in the same city, neighbouring streets. And as far as

    16 his activities between '89 and '92, I really didn't

    17 know anything about it. This is the first time I'm

    18 hearing about it.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: Do you know if he has been

    20 brought up by his parents until the end, or did he

    21 leave his house, his home, early in his life?

    22 A. As far as I know, his parents brought him

    23 up. He graduated from the elementary school in

    24 Bijeljina, and then he continued through high school.

    25 And as far as his life afterwards is concerned, I don't



  15. 1 know.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know. Was your son of

    3 the same age as him or was he much younger?

    4 A. No, my son is two years older than Goran.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Questions for

    7 Judge Rodrigues. I have no further questions either.

    8 We thank you, Witness DD, for your

    9 contribution to the edification of the Judges so that

    10 they can evaluate the sentence that they must pronounce

    11 against Goran Jelisic.

    12 You have completed your testimony now. You

    13 will be escorted out of the courtroom by the usher.

    14 Thank you very much. And then the next witness can be

    15 brought in. You are completely protected, and you can

    16 leave the courtroom now.

    17 [The witness withdrew]

    18 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, whilst we're

    19 waiting for the next witness, my client has requested

    20 whether he may, with Your Honour's leave, go back to

    21 the detention unit. He's been feeling unwell since

    22 this morning, and it was thought that he might not want

    23 to be able to stay after lunch. He came in, but he's

    24 now requesting whether he may go back. So perhaps Your

    25 Honour could just quickly check with him that he's



  16. 1 happy to continue in his absence.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Jelisic, do

    3 you authorise your counsel to conduct the hearing

    4 without your being there?

    5 THE ACCUSED JELISIC: [Interpretation] Yes,

    6 Your Honour. I do not wish to prolong the proceedings

    7 due to my health. I have a fever, I'm running a fever,

    8 and I'm not feeling too well.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.

    10 You'll be treated at the detention unit. The guards

    11 can now escort you out of the courtroom. Perhaps we

    12 could wait for the witness to be brought in.

    13 THE ACCUSED JELISIC: [Interpretation] Thank

    14 you, Your Honour.

    15 [The accused withdrew]

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The next

    17 witness?

    18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The next

    19 witness is Witness -- this will be Witness DF.

    20 [The witness entered court]

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear me,

    22 Witness DF? We're going to call you "Witness DF"

    23 because your identity must be protected.

    24 First look at the piece of paper being shown

    25 to you to be sure that this is, in fact, you. But do



  17. 1 not say your name. Just check to see that that is you,

    2 and tell us "Yes" if it is.

    3 You seem to have a doubt there. Is it your

    4 name; are you sure?

    5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.

    7 We're going to ask you to take an oath now.

    8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    9 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    10 and nothing but the truth.

    11 WITNESS: WITNESS DF

    12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You

    14 may be seated now. Witness DF, you may be seated.

    15 Try to relax. You are being covered by

    16 protective measures. Nobody will see your face.

    17 First, the Defence counsel of the accused,

    18 who is not here but is ill, is going to ask you some

    19 questions. Then it will be the Prosecutor's turn, and

    20 if necessary, the Judges will add some questions for

    21 their own edification.

    22 Mr. Greaves, you may proceed.

    23 Examined by Mr. Greaves:

    24 Q. Witness DF, would you tell us, please, what

    25 your ethnic background is?



  18. 1 A. I'm a Serb.

    2 Q. How long have you known Goran Jelisic?

    3 A. I've known Goran Jelisic since 1984.

    4 Q. And since 1984, have you become a good friend

    5 of Goran Jelisic?

    6 A. Yes, I became a good friend of Goran Jelisic.

    7 Q. And would it be right to describe you as

    8 being one of his circle of friends?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. In that group of friends, what was the ethnic

    11 mix? Was it all Serbian or were there other

    12 nationalities represented in his circle of friends?

    13 A. Among Goran Jelisic's friends, there were

    14 Muslims and Serbs.

    15 Q. When the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    16 were you mobilised into the military forces?

    17 A. Yes. I was drafted by the crisis

    18 headquarters.

    19 Q. And were you a soldier who had rank or were

    20 you just an ordinary private soldier?

    21 A. I did not have a rank. I was an ordinary

    22 private soldier.

    23 Q. How long did you remain in the armed forces,

    24 Witness DF?

    25 A. I remained in the armed forces until



  19. 1 September, when I was wounded.

    2 Q. During the time of your service, can you tell

    3 us about this: What was the nature of military

    4 discipline in the armed forces in which you served?

    5 Was it strict?

    6 A. Yes, it was strict, highly strict, and we

    7 were severely punished for minor mistakes.

    8 Q. And were you expected to give unquestioning

    9 obedience to orders that were given to you?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. What were the consequences of a failure to

    12 obey orders?

    13 A. The consequences involved severe punishment,

    14 even a threat to be court-martialled.

    15 Q. As far as you know, was that a situation

    16 which obtained throughout the security services that

    17 operated in your area?

    18 A. As far as I know, that applied to entire

    19 armed forces, as far as I know.

    20 Q. I'd like to ask you now, please, about May

    21 1992. During the course of that month, did you meet

    22 with Goran Jelisic?

    23 A. I met Goran sometime in the middle of May,

    24 about May 15th. We met on the outskirts of Brcko,

    25 because at that time this is where my unit had been



  20. 1 situated. And since we didn't see each other from the

    2 beginning of the war in Bijeljina, we went to a cafe to

    3 have a drink and talk.

    4 Q. Had it been long since you had seen him?

    5 A. Well, as I said, I didn't see him since the

    6 war broke out in Bijeljina. I saw him prior to that,

    7 two or three days prior to that.

    8 Q. How was he dressed when you saw him?

    9 A. He had a police uniform on him.

    10 Q. How long did you spend with him that day?

    11 A. I couldn't tell you exactly. Perhaps 30

    12 minutes.

    13 Q. Did he tell you what business or what

    14 activities he was engaged in at that time?

    15 A. I remember him telling me that he was a

    16 member of the reserve police in Luka.

    17 Q. During the course of that conversation, did

    18 he tell you in any detail of what it was that he was

    19 doing as a reserve policeman?

    20 A. Yes, I remember that. He told me that he had

    21 to do some bad things which he was asked to do. And I

    22 asked him what bad things, and he said he had to kill

    23 on orders, from orders by others; otherwise, he himself

    24 would be killed.

    25 Q. Did he tell you who it was that he was being



  21. 1 told to kill?

    2 A. No, he didn't tell me that.

    3 Q. Did he tell you who it was who was giving the

    4 orders?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. What was his demeanour at the time he was

    7 telling you this?

    8 A. Well, from the start of the meeting, I saw

    9 that he was psychologically distressed. And when he

    10 told me what he did, he began crying. He suddenly

    11 jumped up and left the cafe, and I remained sitting

    12 there, astounded.

    13 Q. Did you ask him to give further details of

    14 what sort of killings he was carrying out?

    15 A. No. I didn't have time to ask him anything.

    16 Q. After you had completed your tour of duty on

    17 the front line, did you go to visit the defendant,

    18 Goran Jelisic?

    19 A. Yes, towards the end of the month. The shift

    20 was over and I went home, and a day or two later, I

    21 went to Goran Jelisic's home to see if he was there, to

    22 visit him and see what had happened to him. I found

    23 his sister at home, Biljana Jelisic, and she told me

    24 that he had succeeded in fleeing and that he was now

    25 somewhere in Serbia. That's all she told me.



  22. 1 Q. Did you remain in the armed services until

    2 you were wounded?

    3 A. Yes, I continued going to the front in

    4 shifts, and when it was my turn, I went to the front

    5 until September, when I was wounded.

    6 Q. And did you remain in hospital until the end

    7 of the year?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. How long did you remain in hospital?

    10 A. I remained in hospital about a month.

    11 Q. And did you then return to your home?

    12 A. Yes, I went home.

    13 Q. Witness DF, can you tell us, please, this:

    14 In late 1992, were you by then married?

    15 A. I married in 1988.

    16 Q. What's the ethnic background of your wife,

    17 please?

    18 A. My wife is a Muslim.

    19 Q. And I think -- is this also right, that

    20 another member of your family is married to a Muslim?

    21 A. My sister's married to a Muslim.

    22 Q. Did anything happen to you because of those

    23 relationships to Muslims?

    24 A. Well, I had problems because of that from the

    25 very beginning of the war, but at the end of 1992, a



  23. 1 group of people stormed my house. They had caps on

    2 their heads, and they beat me up. The reason for this

    3 was my connection with the Muslims, because my wife was

    4 a Muslim and because my sister was married to a

    5 Muslim.

    6 Q. Yes. Would you wait there, please,

    7 Witness DF.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor

    9 is now going to ask you some questions, questions that

    10 he considers appropriate to ask you.

    11 Mr. Nice, please proceed.

    12 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

    13 Q. You were friends with Jelisic before the

    14 war. Were you close friends?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Would you say that you and he were much like

    17 one another in general habits and behaviour?

    18 A. Well, most of our mutual friends were -- we

    19 were alike.

    20 Q. You had the same approach, did you, to

    21 various things: to girls, or to sport, or to how you

    22 behaved? Would you say that?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. I'll return to that in a minute, but first of

    25 all I just want one detail of your evidence. When were



  24. 1 you first asked to cast your mind back to this day in

    2 1992 when Jelisic told you about what he had been

    3 doing?

    4 A. Nobody asked me. I remembered on my own.

    5 Q. Yes, well, did you go to the lawyers and say,

    6 "I'm an available witness," or did someone come to you

    7 and ask you if you could help?

    8 A. Well, the family asked me to help. The

    9 family of the accused.

    10 Q. When did they make that request?

    11 A. After Goran Jelisic had been arrested.

    12 Q. And at that stage, were you able to remember

    13 this day in 1992 when he told you how he was being

    14 forced to kill other people?

    15 A. That day, yes, I remembered and will remember

    16 for as long as I am alive.

    17 Q. And the date again?

    18 A. I couldn't tell you exactly, but it was the

    19 middle of May: the 15th or the 16th, perhaps.

    20 Q. What was the force that Jelisic said was

    21 applied to him that compelled him to kill other people?

    22 A. Goran Jelisic didn't tell me any details. He

    23 just said that he was forced to kill other people or

    24 else he would be killed himself.

    25 Q. So he told you in terms that he was at risk



  25. 1 of being killed, did he?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr.

    11 Greaves.

    12 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I wonder whether

    13 we might do this in private session, please, because

    14 these are matters which might serve to identify the

    15 witness.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, that's

    17 correct. You're absolutely right.

    18 Private session, please.

    19 Continue, Mr. Nice, but wait until we are in

    20 private session.

    21 [Private session]

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



  26. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 pages 2711-2727 redacted - private session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20

    21

    22

    23

    24

    25



  1. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 [Open session]

    9 THE REGISTRAR: This is Witness DE.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear me,

    11 Witness DE? Do you hear me? This is the Presiding

    12 Judge speaking. Would you please look at me. Look at

    13 me, please. Please look at me. That's it, look at

    14 me. I'm not going to hurt you. Don't worry.

    15 Please check your names on the piece of paper

    16 which is being given to you by the usher, and nod if

    17 that, in fact, is you.

    18 It is you. Very well. Please remain

    19 standing as long as it takes to take the oath.

    20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    21 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    22 and nothing but the truth.

    23 WITNESS: WITNESS DE

    24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be



  2. 1 seated.

    2 You have agreed to come to the International

    3 Criminal Tribunal to testify for Goran Jelisic, who is

    4 not in this courtroom because he's ill but who, as you

    5 know, admitted his guilt to war crimes and crimes

    6 against humanity. The Defence counsel will ask you

    7 some questions, then the Prosecution, and then probably

    8 or perhaps the Judges.

    9 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.

    10 Examined by Mr. Greaves:

    11 Q. Witness DE -- it would help if I turned on my

    12 microphone. Witness DE, would you please tell us what

    13 your ethnic background is?

    14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness come

    15 closer to the microphone, please, the interpreters

    16 note.

    17 A. A Muslim.

    18 MR. GREAVES:

    19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, please, when it

    20 was that you first met Goran Jelisic?

    21 A. 1985.

    22 Q. And subsequently did you become friends with

    23 Goran Jelisic?

    24 A. In 1985, we met. In 1986, we became friends

    25 with Goran Jelisic.



  3. 1 Q. When the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    2 did you and your family go outside the former

    3 Yugoslavia?

    4 A. I left it in November of 1992.

    5 Q. And during the time that you have known Goran

    6 Jelisic, and in particular before the war, did he ever

    7 express any sentiment to you that was hostile to

    8 members of other racial or ethnic groups?

    9 A. He never hated Muslims or Croats. He always

    10 got along well both with Muslims and with Croats and

    11 with everyone else.

    12 Q. Could you tell Their Honours, please, in

    13 which month it was that you went overseas, having fled

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    15 A. November 1992.

    16 Q. Between May 1992 and November 1992, did you

    17 continue to see Goran Jelisic?

    18 A. I did not see Goran between May and September

    19 of 1992.

    20 Q. During that period before you went overseas,

    21 were there any -- was there any influx of Serbian

    22 refugees into your home town?

    23 A. Yes, there was. A lot of people came in.

    24 Q. Did you experience any problems with your

    25 home as a result of the influx of refugees?



  4. 1 A. I did.

    2 Q. What was the nature of the problems that you

    3 experienced, Witness DE?

    4 A. The problems were caused by Serbian refugees

    5 who entered into our houses. They wanted to move us

    6 out so that the Serbian refugees could move into our

    7 houses.

    8 Q. Did Goran Jelisic take any steps to prevent

    9 that from happening?

    10 A. Yes. He did not allow those Serbian refugees

    11 to move into our houses.

    12 Q. Don't tell us any names, Witness DE, but did

    13 any other members of your family experience similar

    14 problems?

    15 A. They did.

    16 Q. Do you have brothers and sisters?

    17 A. I do.

    18 Q. Did they experience problems of a similar

    19 nature to yours, in relation to people trying to kick

    20 them out of their homes?

    21 A. They did.

    22 Q. Did Goran Jelisic take any steps to assist

    23 them in that regard?

    24 A. He did.

    25 Q. Again, what steps did he take to help them?



  5. 1 A. He did not allow Serbian refugees to enter

    2 our Muslim houses, not only ours but our neighbours who

    3 are Muslims as well, and he would get into conflict

    4 with Serbian refugees on our account.

    5 Q. And was your mother still alive at that time?

    6 A. She was.

    7 Q. Did she experience any similar problems in

    8 relation to people trying to evict her from her home?

    9 A. Yes, she experienced the same problems.

    10 Q. And what did Goran Jelisic do in relation to

    11 your mother, if anything, to help her avoid these

    12 problems?

    13 A. He frequently stayed overnight at my mother's

    14 house so that these Serbians, refugees, would not come

    15 in and mistreat her and evict her out of her house, and

    16 this is how he helped her.

    17 Q. In terms of you being able to leave the

    18 former Yugoslavia, did Goran Jelisic assist that

    19 process in any way?

    20 A. He did. He took me and my family across the

    21 Drina River, and he didn't take any money for that, and

    22 this is how we went abroad.

    23 Q. And shortly after you were taken across the

    24 river, did he help any other members of your family?

    25 A. He did. My brother.



  6. 1 Q. And tell us how it was that he helped them.

    2 A. Just like he helped me, he took them in a

    3 boat across Drina River to Serbia, to Yugoslavia, in

    4 order to help them go abroad.

    5 Q. As far as your sister and her husband are

    6 concerned, did he give them any assistance to leave the

    7 country?

    8 A. Exactly in the same way he helped them seven

    9 months later, helped them get across and be on their

    10 way.

    11 Q. Did you return to the former Yugoslavia at

    12 some stage?

    13 A. I did.

    14 Q. And when you returned, did you meet Goran

    15 Jelisic upon your return?

    16 A. Yes, I did, because he came to pick me up in

    17 Loncari in a vehicle, and he took me to Bijeljina.

    18 Q. Concerning the attempts by Serb refugees to

    19 evict Muslims from their homes, are you aware of any

    20 other Muslims to whom he has given help to avoid being

    21 evicted from their homes?

    22 A. Yes. In my street, he helped at least seven

    23 or eight families, and he helped everybody he could

    24 help throughout the town.

    25 Q. And the people that you have just described,



  7. 1 were those his friends or were they just people who got

    2 in touch with him or who were enabled to be put in

    3 touch with him?

    4 A. Those were not his friends, they were just

    5 people of Muslim background, and he did not permit

    6 something like this to happen with respect to them.

    7 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. Would you be so

    8 kind as to wait there, please, Witness DE.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tochilovsky

    10 for the Prosecutor, please proceed.

    11 Cross-examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:

    12 Q. That influx of refugees in 1992, what month

    13 was it?

    14 A. I apologise. I didn't understand the

    15 question.

    16 Q. What month was it when refugees who came to

    17 Bijeljina tried to move you out of your house?

    18 A. It was in 1992. Two or three months after

    19 the war broke out in the federation, the refugees

    20 started coming in.

    21 Q. Those refugees, they were from Bosnia or from

    22 Croatia?

    23 A. The refugees were from Bosnia.

    24 Q. You're saying that Goran Jelisic was friendly

    25 with Muslims, with Croats, in Bijeljina. Before war



  8. 1 started in Bosnia, in the former Yugoslavia, isn't it

    2 true that all these ethnic groups, Muslims, Croats,

    3 Serbs, lived together peacefully?

    4 A. They lived together peacefully.

    5 Q. So Goran Jelisic was no exception in this

    6 term?

    7 A. He was no exception.

    8 Q. He did not like Muslims more than anyone else

    9 in Bijeljina?

    10 A. As far as I know, he never said to me he

    11 hated Muslims or Croats. He was always a decent

    12 person.

    13 Q. You said that you had been friends with Goran

    14 Jelisic since 1986; is that correct?

    15 A. We started a very good friendship in 1986.

    16 Q. And you know that he was convicted in 1991 to

    17 three years' imprisonment?

    18 A. I don't know about that.

    19 Q. And you were the best of friends?

    20 A. We were real friends, real good friends.

    21 Q. And he never told you that he was convicted?

    22 A. We never discussed it. We were just going

    23 out as friends, going to cafes.

    24 Q. In [indiscernible] 1990, early 1991, he was

    25 always in Bijeljina; he never was absent for a long



  9. 1 time?

    2 A. I wasn't in Bijeljina the whole time, I was

    3 also working, and Goran and I would meet almost every

    4 day or every other day.

    5 Q. So in the winter from November 1990 and

    6 February 1991, it was a regular winter and you met him

    7 also every other day?

    8 A. I wasn't seeing a lot of him at the time,

    9 because I was in Sarajevo then.

    10 Q. How often did you see him at that time?

    11 A. A couple of times, because I had some

    12 business away.

    13 Q. Do you know that he was in prison at that

    14 time in Tuzla, from November 13, 1990, until February

    15 22nd, 1991?

    16 A. I don't know.

    17 Q. How could you meet him in Bijeljina if he was

    18 in prison in Tuzla?

    19 A. I said that we met a couple of times. Maybe

    20 he had weekends off. I can't tell you exactly what the

    21 date was when I saw him.

    22 Q. Do you mean weekends from the prison or what

    23 kind of weekends?

    24 A. Well, if his behaviour was good, perhaps they

    25 would let him come out of prison on Friday, Saturday



  10. 1 and Sunday.

    2 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I have no further questions

    3 to this witness, Your Honours.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves.

    5 MR. GREAVES: I have no re-examination.

    6 Thank you very much.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    8 Judge Riad. Judge Rodrigues.

    9 Questioned by the Court:

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness DE,

    11 I think that I understood that you met Jelisic for the

    12 first time in 1985. Is that correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And after

    15 1986, you began to have a friendship?

    16 A. Yes. Our intensive friendship started in

    17 1986.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why do you

    19 make the distinction between those two dates?

    20 A. I didn't understand your question.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm saying

    22 that because there are some people who become friends

    23 right away. You met Mr. Jelisic in 1985, but you say

    24 that you began a friendship only in 1986. Why is that?

    25 A. In '85 -- it was the end of '85, beginning of



  11. 1 '86, and it takes longer than a day or two to

    2 establish a friendship. So this is how it started the

    3 beginning of '86.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I

    5 agree with you.

    6 I believe that in 1992, you had to leave your

    7 house and become a refugee. What date was that, more

    8 or less?

    9 A. November. I'm not certain, but around the

    10 15th of November.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So that

    12 happened after the period between May and September,

    13 during which you didn't see Mr. Jelisic?

    14 A. I didn't see him.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] During that

    16 period between May and September, you did not see Mr.

    17 Jelisic?

    18 A. I didn't see him.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore

    20 you became a refugee after September 1992; is that

    21 right?

    22 A. I became a refugee in November of '92.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    24 Witness DE. I have no further questions.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I have no



  12. 1 questions either. You have finished your testimony,

    2 and the Tribunal thanks you. We're going to have you

    3 escorted out of the courtroom.

    4 I understand that the other two witnesses

    5 have arrived? Yes, that's correct, the two next

    6 witnesses are here. I think that we should begin with

    7 the next witness immediately. I am not forgetting your

    8 question, Mr. Greaves, and we may deal with it tomorrow

    9 morning, which will allow Mr. Nice to prepare his

    10 response, but I would like to speed up the testimony of

    11 the witnesses, who have been here several days

    12 already.

    13 Thank you very much, Witness DE. Bon voyage

    14 back home.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: The next witness will be

    16 Witness DG.

    17 [The witness entered court]

    18 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have the judge

    19 turn his microphone on, please.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I made a

    21 mistake.

    22 Do you hear me?

    23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Would you

    25 please check your names on the piece of paper and



  13. 1 simply nod if in fact those are your names.

    2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    3 Q. Very well. Thank you. Please remain

    4 standing. Take an oath that's going to be given to you

    5 by the usher.

    6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    8 truth.

    9 WITNESS: WITNESS DG

    10 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You

    12 are in The Hague in order to testify -- you may be

    13 seated.

    14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You are in The

    16 Hague to testify for Mr. Jelisic, who has been charged

    17 here by the Office of the Prosecutor for crimes against

    18 humanity. Mr. Greaves, the Defence counsel for

    19 Mr. Jelisic, who is not here because he fell ill,

    20 Mr. Greaves is going to ask you some questions, and

    21 after that you will be asked some questions by the

    22 Prosecutor, and possibly by the Judges as well.

    23 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.

    24 Examined by Mr. Greaves:

    25 Q. Witness DG, would you please tell us what



  14. 1 your ethnic background is?

    2 A. I'm a Muslim.

    3 Q. When did you first meet Goran Jelisic?

    4 A. I met Goran in 1989.

    5 Q. And where was it that you met him?

    6 A. I met him at the Semberija factory farm,

    7 where I was working.

    8 Q. In due course, did you become friendly with

    9 him?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And help us about this: The other employees

    12 at the agricultural works, were they all of one ethnic

    13 group, or were they of a mixed ethnic background?

    14 A. They were mixed.

    15 Q. And how did Goran behave towards those who

    16 were not Serbs?

    17 A. Well. His conduct was proper, normal.

    18 Q. Did you ever see any signs in him of an

    19 attitude of extreme nationalist politics or dislike or

    20 hatred of other racial groups?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. As war began to break out in the territories

    23 of the former Yugoslavia, did his attitude change in

    24 any way?

    25 A. No.



  15. 1 Q. I want to ask you now about the outbreak of

    2 hostilities in Bijeljina in April 1992. Were you in

    3 Bijeljina at that time?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Was there an occasion when you sought refuge

    6 somewhere in Bijeljina?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Where was it that you sought refuge?

    9 A. In the barracks.

    10 Q. And why were you going to the barracks?

    11 A. Because I had heard that other people were

    12 going there to take refuge, so I went along, too, with

    13 my mother and my wife and my sister.

    14 Q. On your way to the barracks, did you come

    15 across some form of obstruction in the street?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. What was the nature of that obstruction?

    18 A. Well, there was the police there, Arkan's

    19 men.

    20 Q. Did they discover that you were a Muslim?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. What was the reaction of those who were at

    23 that place to the fact that you were a Muslim?

    24 A. Well, when they saw we were Muslims, they

    25 threatened us, said all kinds of things, and even



  16. 1 threatened to kill us.

    2 Q. How long did you remain at this obstruction?

    3 A. About an hour.

    4 Q. Whilst you were there, did you see Goran

    5 Jelisic?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. How was it that you were able to leave the

    8 barricade?

    9 A. After about an hour, Goran came by, and he

    10 noticed me, and he came up to me and asked me.

    11 Q. What did he ask you?

    12 A. He asked me what the problem was, and I told

    13 him that they were threatening to kill us, and then he

    14 reacted. He went to them, and after that, they let us

    15 go.

    16 Q. Where did you go after leaving the barricade?

    17 A. We went to Goran's house.

    18 Q. When you got to Goran's house, were there any

    19 other people there?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Who was there? Were his parents there?

    22 A. His father, Aco, was there.

    23 Q. And without telling us any names, were there

    24 people who were not members of his family there?

    25 A. Yes.



  17. 1 Q. Were they people who were Muslim, or Serb, or

    2 Croat?

    3 A. [No interpretation]

    4 Q. What were they doing at Goran's home?

    5 A. Muslims.

    6 They had also gone there.

    7 Q. For what purpose had they gone there?

    8 A. Because of the war and all that, because they

    9 were frightened, and they believed him.

    10 Q. How long did you remain at Goran's house?

    11 A. They stayed two days; I stayed three.

    12 Q. And did you then go home, or where did you go

    13 to?

    14 A. I went home.

    15 Q. And why did you then feel able to go home in

    16 safety?

    17 A. Because I believed him. I knew him.

    18 Q. Did he say anything to you about what had

    19 been taking place in Bijeljina?

    20 A. No. He just said that it was a madhouse, but

    21 that it would all pass.

    22 Q. Subsequently, did you spend a period away

    23 from Bijeljina?

    24 A. Yes. I was taken prisoner.

    25 Q. Did you return to Bijeljina in January 1993?



  18. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. When you returned, did you learn anything

    3 from your wife -- and don't tell us what her name is --

    4 did you learn anything from your wife about Goran

    5 Jelisic and what he had done in your absence?

    6 A. She told me that he came by several times and

    7 helped her by bringing her food and giving her some

    8 money.

    9 Q. Did you learn from any other Muslims anything

    10 about Goran Jelisic visiting them? Again, don't tell

    11 us any names.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. As a result of what you had found out, did

    14 you say anything to Goran about what he had done?

    15 A. What do you mean?

    16 Q. Having heard that Goran Jelisic had given

    17 some assistance to your family, did you speak to him

    18 about that assistance? Did you say anything to him

    19 about it?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. What did you say to him?

    22 A. I thanked him.

    23 Q. I think you have a son, and again, don't tell

    24 us his name, but is that right?

    25 A. Yes.



  19. 1 Q. Did your son have some medical problems at

    2 around this time?

    3 A. Yes, he had to have a spleen operation.

    4 Q. As a result of that, did you make efforts to

    5 leave the former Yugoslavia?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Were you able to leave the former Yugoslavia,

    8 or were you prevented?

    9 A. I was prevented.

    10 Q. Did you have to return to Bijeljina?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. In relation to the illness of your son, did

    13 you receive any assistance from Goran Jelisic in

    14 relation to that illness?

    15 A. He helped me, because he took my child to the

    16 doctor.

    17 Q. And did he pay for any of the medical

    18 treatment that your son received?

    19 A. Well, yes, he saw to all the costs, whatever

    20 they were.

    21 Q. Had you heard at any stage any rumours,

    22 gossip, about events that had taken place in Brcko

    23 concerning Goran Jelisic?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. As a result of what you had heard, did you



  20. 1 ask him anything about those matters?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. What did you ask him?

    4 A. I asked him whether it was true.

    5 Q. What did he say?

    6 A. Yes, he acknowledged that it was true.

    7 Q. Did he give to you any explanation as to why

    8 he had behaved in that way?

    9 A. Well, he said he was forced to, that he had

    10 to do that, that he was threatened that he would be

    11 killed.

    12 Q. Did he identify anybody who had been involved

    13 in threatening him in any way?

    14 A. He mentioned names, but I didn't remember

    15 them.

    16 Q. Did he say anything about his feelings

    17 towards what he had done?

    18 A. Well, I noticed by his demeanour that it

    19 wasn't easy for him to say it and to talk about it.

    20 This could be felt.

    21 Q. Apart from yourself, were there any other

    22 people who had worked with you at the agricultural

    23 works to whom Goran Jelisic, within your knowledge,

    24 gave assistance?

    25 A. Yes.



  21. 1 Q. And were they all Muslims?

    2 A. Yes, most of them.

    3 Q. Yes. Would you wait there, please,

    4 Witness DG.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Proceed,

    6 Mr. Nice.

    7 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

    8 Q. You asked him whether the rumours were true.

    9 What were the rumours?

    10 A. Well, about killings.

    11 Q. There are killings and there are different

    12 types of killings. What killings were the subject of

    13 rumours?

    14 A. Murders.

    15 Q. Did the rumours specify how the murders were

    16 committed? Help us.

    17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter would like

    18 to ask the witness to speak up, please.

    19 MR. NICE:

    20 Q. Did the rumours specify how the murders were

    21 committed?

    22 A. No, they didn't, just that there were

    23 killings.

    24 Q. You're telling the Chamber, are you, there

    25 was no -- no rumours had escaped from Brcko about how



  22. 1 people were being taken out and shot at random; nothing

    2 like that?

    3 A. No, nothing like that. At least I didn't

    4 hear it.

    5 Q. And so how was Jelisic's name linked with

    6 these nonspecific rumours, please?

    7 A. I don't know.

    8 Q. You heard the rumours, you're telling us

    9 about the rumours. Please, what were the rumours?

    10 What did they amount to, so far as Jelisic was

    11 concerned?

    12 A. Well, they just talked about killings.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Try to

    14 concentrate on the question. The question was asked,

    15 and it's specific. Try to answer it. Mr. Jelisic is

    16 your friend, you knew him, you were in his house.

    17 You're under oath. Try to answer the questions

    18 specifically and precisely, please.

    19 Please proceed.

    20 MR. NICE:

    21 Q. Think back. Is there any detail of these

    22 rumours that you can now remember, please, Witness DG?

    23 A. No, I don't know anything else. I just heard

    24 about the killings.

    25 Q. For example, did the rumours include the fact



  23. 1 that Jelisic was going by the name of "the Serbian

    2 Adolf"?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. You've never heard the nickname "Adolf" used

    5 in relation to Jelisic?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. And all he told you, unless I've

    8 misunderstood you, all he told you was that he had to

    9 do these killings because he had been threatened that

    10 he would be killed; is that right?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And you're sure about that, that he was

    13 threatened that he would be killed?

    14 A. Well, I believe that that's how it was.

    15 Q. That's what he told you, that he was

    16 threatened?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. By whom?

    19 A. People from SDS, leadership, police. That's

    20 what he told me.

    21 Q. So there was a clear and comprehensive

    22 account of his being threatened with death if he didn't

    23 murder other people; is that your account?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. You see, Jelisic has been interviewed



  24. 1 extensively by investigators, and he's made it quite

    2 plain to those investigators that there were no threats

    3 made to him at all.

    4 A. I don't know what he told them. I know what

    5 he said to me.

    6 Q. Of course, you would accept the best person

    7 to tell us whether there were threats or not is

    8 Jelisic, isn't it?

    9 A. What Jelisic told me was that there were

    10 threats. Now, as to what he admitted here, I really

    11 don't know anything about that.

    12 MR. NICE: Can we go into private session

    13 just very briefly?

    14 [Private session]

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



  25. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 [Open session]

    10 MR. NICE:

    11 Q. You say that Jelisic was threatened by

    12 leadership of the SDS. Are you aware that he had been

    13 a member of the SDS himself?

    14 A. Not SDS. Police and leadership of SDS.

    15 Q. Your wife was visited by Jelisic when you

    16 were in prison. Over what period of time did he visit

    17 your wife?

    18 A. Four or five times, he came to visit her.

    19 But at what period of time exactly, I don't know.

    20 Q. What was his particular interest in your

    21 family that he wanted to help your family, please,

    22 Witness DG?

    23 A. Since we were good friends, that was probably

    24 the reason.

    25 Q. And what time in '93 was this?



  26. 1 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter

    2 didn't understand what the witness said. Could he

    3 repeat the answer?

    4 MR. NICE:

    5 Q. What time in '93 was this?

    6 A. When I came out of imprisonment?

    7 Q. Yes.

    8 A. [No audible response]

    9 Q. Yes. When did you come out of prison?

    10 A. January 13, 1993.

    11 Q. So by that time Jelisic already knew he was a

    12 wanted man, didn't he?

    13 A. I don't know if he knew.

    14 Q. You were in prison as part of the war or for

    15 other reasons?

    16 A. Prisoner of war.

    17 Q. Thank you. We've probably got your date of

    18 birth. Can you just confirm it? What is your date of

    19 birth?

    20 A. (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



  27. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 MR. NICE: Yes, certainly.

    13 Q. Witness DG, are you fit and healthy today or

    14 is there anything troubling you?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Have you yourself ever been in trouble with

    17 the police for any matter?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. Did you say "No" or "Yes"?

    20 A. "No."

    21 MR. NICE: Very well. Thank you.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves, do

    23 you wish to add anything?

    24 MR. GREAVES: I have no questions in

    25 re-examination. Thank you, Your Honour.



  28. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me turn to

    2 my colleagues. Judge Riad. Judge Rodrigues doesn't

    3 have any questions; nor do I.

    4 Witness DG, I thank you for having come to

    5 The Hague. We have now concluded your testimony. You

    6 will be escorted out of the courtroom.

    7 The Judges will withdraw, and we will resume

    8 through videolink conference tomorrow morning at

    9 10.00.

    10 At 10.00, I want to deal with the question

    11 that Mr. Greaves raised with Mr. Nice, but at 10.00

    12 tomorrow morning.

    13 MR. NICE: I'm at the Court's disposal now or

    14 tomorrow. I know the Court was going to make an order

    15 about tomorrow's --

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I'm thinking

    17 about the interpreters. I think that the interpreters

    18 are tired. They've worked a great deal; they've worked

    19 overtime today even. I want to thank them.

    20 So I think that we will wait until tomorrow

    21 morning, until 10.00. Thank you.

    22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    23 5.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

    24 the 11th day of November, 1999, at

    25 10.00 a.m.