1 Wednesday, 17 September 2008
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.00 p.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, this is the case number
7 IT-95-5/18-PT, the Prosecutor versus Radovan Karadzic.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Who appears for the Prosecution?
10 MR. TIEGER: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Alan Tieger, Mark
11 Harmon, and case manager Iain Reid for the Prosecution.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
13 Mr. Karadzic, you appear again on your own I assume?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm never alone, but I am here
17 alone. I have my invisible advisors, but I'm a Gemini so there are two
18 of us anyway.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll come back to that in a moment. For the
20 avoidance of any doubt about why we're here, today's a Status Conference
21 held under Rule 65 bis of the rules of procedure of the Tribunal. That
22 rule indicates that the Pre-Trial Judge should convene a
23 Status Conference within 120 days of your initial appearance. Because of
24 the measure of uncertainty about how this case is proceeding, it seemed
25 to me appropriate to have a Status Conference much earlier than 120 days
1 after your first appearance so this date was fixed.
2 The purpose of a Status Conference is to organize exchanges
3 between the parties to ensure the expeditious preparation of the trial,
4 and that includes reviewing the status of the case and allowing you to
5 raise issues in relation to the case, including issues regarding your
6 mental or physical condition. Just -- as a very wide-ranging area that
7 you may explore if appropriate in the course of this hearing. However, I
8 will raise a number of matters myself first of all which I think we ought
9 to deal with, and the first of these is the question of your
11 Now, I'm not interested in the detail of any discussions you may
12 be having about how that might be organized, but I do want to ensure that
13 you understand the implications of conducting your own defence in court.
14 There is precedent in this Tribunal for an accused person to participate
15 actively in the presentation of his own defence, even where he has
16 counsel also actively conducting the case in conjunction with him. Now,
17 it's for the Trial Chamber - and in this case I think it would be for the
18 Chamber in the pre-trial phase - to consider and approve appropriate
19 arrangements for individual cases. So there is no absolute choice,
20 simple, absolute choice, between being there on your own, trying to do
21 everything in court on your own, and being represented in court by
22 someone else and having to remain silent; there are other options.
23 Now, has that already been explained to you?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it has. Thank you. For the
25 moment - and I think to the end - I will waive that right, but may I
1 first thank you for that explanation because one point I thought that
2 scheduling a Status Conference so early on might be the result of
3 endeavours on the part of the Prosecution to get through these
4 proceedings very quickly, which I will not allow.
5 So for the moment, and I do believe that this will be my position
6 to the end, I will defend myself, and I hope the Registry will enable me
7 to set up a good team to help me. If that is not the case, then I won't
8 have a team at all because I cannot allow such a major trial - you've
9 never had a trial like this and never will have - but this be an
10 opportunity to just make it look like a fair trial and just as a human
11 being cannot be half girl/half mermaid or half fish, this either has to
12 be a fair trial or no trial at all.
13 So I have to hold the reins of my defence in my hands, first of
14 all, to determine the truth, the truth about our conflict, to determine
15 the truth as I say, and then to defend myself in the second place. I'm
16 not defending myself in actual fact. What I am defending are the people
17 over there who have suffered.
18 I'm defending other people, the heads of other states, the
19 civilian heads of other states, which will be at the forefront of the
20 onslaught of this alliance after this exception of taking to trial a head
21 of state. It will of course be a precedent for small nations, small
22 countries, not large ones. So I cannot leave my defence to anybody else,
23 I must keep my defence in my own hands; and I would not be able to
24 dismiss counsel, defence counsel, in any later stage unless you agree to
25 that if that situation ever arose.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Obviously the decision in the end of the day is
2 yours, but bearing in mind the important constituents you say you
3 represent, peoples and nations, no doubt you will bear in mind the
4 responsibility of ensuring that these constituent interests have the best
5 possible defence. And I simply urge you from years of experience to
6 consider whether sitting here in court, preparing out of court on your
7 own to present that defence is the right and best way to do it. I urge
8 you to give that a great deal of thought in the days and weeks that
9 follow, in the hope that you will realize that there are better ways of
10 representing your case than presenting it in isolation on your own.
11 Anyway, I'm satisfied that you have a clear understanding of what
12 facilities are available to you and that the decision is one for you to
14 I now want to deal with the various documents, motions, notices,
15 whatever that are in the wind at the moment that might be said to be
16 before the Chamber. There is an issue over the language in which
17 material is provided to you, and you triggered the Trial Chamber's
18 attention to that by submitting what you called an appeal against the
19 Registry decision to provide transcripts in the English language only
20 accompanied by the audio recordings of the proceedings in court.
21 The Chamber has at the moment before it - and that's myself and
22 my two colleagues - that submission and a response which came from the
23 Prosecution and also an indication of the Registry position. So the
24 Chamber, the three Judges, are now in a position where they can consider
25 the issues that are focused in these documents, and we will make a
1 decision on that. I expect -- I never guarantee when these decisions
2 will come out. I can only give you an indication because I'm sure you're
3 anxious to know the situation, and indeed it makes a difference to how
4 this case will proceed. I expect that decision to be in your hands
5 sometime next week, and then we will know exactly where we stand on how
6 documents have to be handled.
7 There's not just a question of the Registry giving you documents.
8 The most important documents, I suspect, will be those that come to you
9 from the Prosecution; and therefore, the issue obviously affects them as
11 The other matter which was before us the last time and remains
12 outstanding is the various submissions you've made relating to what you
13 claim is an immunity agreement made with Richard Holbrooke. There are
14 three documents from you, 1st of August, 6th of August, and 26th of
15 August setting out your position. It actually goes further than that
16 because not only do you claim immunity based on that, but you suggest
17 that there's a plan to endanger you and that you're being subjected to
18 intimidation by public statements made by various international and
19 Tribunal officials. And you've also raised what you refer to as
20 irregularities concerning fair trial opportunities you wish the
21 Trial Chamber to consider. The Prosecution have also made submissions on
23 As I said to you before, the Chamber's actively considering that.
24 That is also now ripe for decision, and we will look at that as a
25 Trial Chamber of three Judges and determine whether we can actually make
1 a decision on it at this stage, whether this is the time to do so, what,
2 if any, other procedure may be involved; and we will give a response to
3 that. That may not come from the Chamber as quickly as the indication I
4 gave to you about the issue over language, but you can rest assured it is
5 a matter to which we are already giving active consideration.
6 Now, my understanding is that these are all the matters that you
7 have raised in writing with the Chamber. Am I correct in that or is
8 there any other matter that has been raised and that I have overlooked?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You are mostly correct, but I'd
10 first of all like to ask whether we're in private session or not?
11 JUDGE BONOMY: No, we're in open session at the moment.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Secondly, allow me just briefly to
13 say something about the previous question with respect to my defence.
14 Nobody who were to appear in this courtroom can know the facts as well as
15 I do. Now, as far as legal matters are concerned and the legal
16 proceedings, I was told that the Trial Chamber -- I could expect the
17 Trial Chamber to protect my rights. So I will rely on that, and if the
18 Registry allows me to set up a team, the kind of team that I'd like to
19 have, if they provide the necessary resources then I do believe that I'll
20 have the necessary advice and legal knowledge, and I'll always ask that
21 my advisors or associates or at least one of them be present in the
22 courtroom so that he can follow the proceedings and the transcript and to
23 assist me by making suggestions to me, as is the case in my own system,
24 in the system of my country, and in the American system indeed. So I'm
25 not actually thinking about taking on a Defence counsel.
1 Now, as far as language is concerned --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Let me interrupt you there so that we don't get
3 confused on issues. My understanding of the rules in your own country is
4 that if you were facing a charge as serious as this one, you would be
5 obliged to be legally represented in court. Have I got that wrong?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think you've got that
7 wrong, but our system is such that in our legal system, the accused has
8 the right to conduct an examination, to give statements, to comment, to
9 cross-examine witnesses, and to dismiss his counsel if he should be
10 dissatisfied with him, whereas I would not have that right here unless
11 you agreed with me, I wouldn't have the right to dismiss counsel and the
12 res rea, and I'm not ready to be a thing here, an object. I'm not
13 prepared to be passive and to have other people decide on matters that
14 concern me.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 And you wanted to go on to deal with the language issue?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. That's right.
18 Can you hear me? It's like this, the Prosecution hasn't
19 challenged the right for me to use my own language, and that is a right
20 that all other documents dealing with human rights accord as well. But
21 they are saying that this Tribunal does not have the necessary resources,
22 that they're poor in resources.
23 Now, if they are poor in resources for such a large trial, then
24 the question arises as to whether the shop can go on working because
25 whenever there's a lack of funds, a lack of money, shops close down. On
1 the other hand, the Prosecution has agreed that it would be more
2 practical for me to have transcripts provided in my own language. But
3 what they say is that this would not be acceptable from the aspects of
4 fairness. I don't understand that. Why wouldn't it be fair for me to
5 have the transcript with all the nuances of language so that I could
6 understand it completely in all its shades of meaning?
7 Now, following the proceedings at this Tribunal, I was able to
8 see that shades of meaning can completely change the meaning of a
9 sentence that has been interpreted or translated. So it is of vast
10 importance, and if they consider it -- if this were to be unfair towards
11 cases that have already been held here, now to go on with a practice that
12 has proved a bad practice would be much worse than putting that practice
13 right along the way. Of course, I don't know what you mean by B/H/S,
14 it's a bastardized form of a language. My language is the Serbian
15 language. It is my property, spiritual property, the intellectual
16 property of the Serbian people, their intellectual right; anybody can use
17 it but nobody can appropriate it or change its name as they see fit. Now
18 as far as the Cyrillic script is concerned, that's something that we've
19 used in my family, and so I like to use that script.
20 Now, as for the response given by the Registry, the Registry in
21 that response says that we would defer the process by going into this --
22 all these matters and providing all the resources because they say that
23 the translation of transcripts would take a long time, it would require
24 one month for just one transcript. But I think that I would take more
25 time in listening to the transcript rather than reading through it in
1 translation, and I'm sure that many more people can transcribe a
2 transcript from the audio-tape and that this would be a much faster
3 process, whereas I have to look through the whole material.
4 So I think that the Prosecution and the Registry is fully
5 conscious of the fact that if I were to accept just an audio version, I
6 would not be prepared for trial because if they needed the amount of time
7 they needed to listen to all the tapes and go through them all, I would
8 need much more time. So this brings me to a situation where I am unable
9 to prepare a good defence case because I would not have the necessary
10 preparations. So here we have the request and desire of the Prosecution
11 on the one hand, to get through the proceedings and trial as quickly as
12 possible at the expense of a fair and just trial that is in their favour
13 and not mine.
14 I think you'll remember, and I'm sure you can find this in some
15 of the recordings, that the translations and interpretations in several
16 cases proved very important for the sense of a sentence, very vital
17 sentences in the transcript and in any given proceedings or in any given
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic. I think all these points
20 are already reflected in the written submissions which have been made,
21 but again I will ensure that my colleagues have the opportunity to read
22 what you've said to supplement your earlier submissions.
23 One thing you might reflect upon when you're thinking further of
24 language is that the official languages of the Tribunal are English and
25 French, that people like myself who have not have the advantage of an
1 education in the Serbian language have to do our best with the English
2 version of events translated, that we rely on high standards of
3 interpretation and translation in this Tribunal; we identify areas where
4 we may be concerned about the way in which material is translated, we
5 regularly and -- and if you have a look at some of the transcripts of the
6 case over which I continue to preside you will see many instances where
7 we invite the translation department to review what has occurred and to
8 revise the translation if appropriate. And we allow counsel to draw
9 issues of that nature to our attention. And I think you may also find
10 that where an accused person who speaks the Serbian language is
11 represented by counsel who are either bilingual or one of whom speaks the
12 languages of the Tribunal and the other speaks Serbian that they get the
13 best of all worlds that way and ensure that any injustices are avoided.
14 However, these, you can rest assured, are factors we will take account of
15 in coming to a determination of this issue; and we bear in mind also what
16 you've said about the Cyrillic script.
17 I want to turn to the Prosecution at this stage because we've
18 exhausted the motions that come at your instance --
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, not by far. We haven't
20 exhausted -- I haven't touched upon the question of immunity at all.
21 Then there's the question of how I was arrested and the conduct of the
22 Prosecution. I have criticisms and complaints to make there too.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: You have made your written submissions on these,
24 and we are in a position to address these and will address them; and a
25 full decision will be issued in relation to these matters.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do have something to say with
2 respect to the Cyrillic script. It is mostly Serbs that are being tried
3 here, so how come the Tribunal and Trial Chambers have opted for the
4 Latin script? That's one that needs to be considered. The other thing
5 is this: Regardless of the fact that I'm taking part at this
6 Status Conference, I have not given up on my right to deal with the issue
7 of how my case has been assigned to this Trial Chamber or how it was
8 assigned to Trial Chamber I in the first place. And I have serious
9 complaints about ex parte communication before the Prosecution and the
10 Tribunal. I sent a letter to Mr. Pocar, the President of the Tribunal,
11 asking him to send me all the material and documents --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment. I am here to deal with what has
13 been assigned to me. Now, if you've a question or an issue that I can
14 deal with, then I will address it. But if you're communicating,
15 independently of me, with the President, that's not a matter I can enter
16 into or be any -- be involved in. I'm not in a position to do it. And
17 please don't use this Court as a platform for raising issues that don't
18 relate to the matters that are before us here. I think I will give you a
19 great deal of scope to explain your position in relation to matters that
20 I am competent to deal with, but let's not stray beyond that into areas
21 which are not for me just so that you can perhaps make some public
22 statement or other. You know that issues between you and the President
23 are not matters for me.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that that went through
25 you, as is the case in my country's system, it all goes through the
1 existing Trial Chamber. But anyway, I retain the right --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I have a copy of it because you sent a copy to the
3 Trial Chamber, but it's not a communication for my attention or one to
4 which I have given any consideration, nor is it one on which you should
5 address me. You have dealt with it separately via the President and that
6 will be dealt with by him, I am certain. If there are matters that I can
7 address, then please turn your attention to those.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Then I retain the right
9 to raise the question once again before the Trial Chamber at a later
10 date, in due course. And I have something to say with respect to the
11 question of immunity as well --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I suspect that what you've raised will be
13 dealt with in a quite different way. It won't ever be a matter I think
14 for the Trial Chamber to deal with, but there will be other methods by
15 which it can be addressed depending on the response that is issued
16 following your letter. But don't assume that it's for this Trial Chamber
17 at any stage to deal with the question of how a case was assigned to it.
18 That's really for a higher authority.
19 So please continue with other matters that you consider relevant.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At my initial appearance I
21 complained about the ex parte position between the Prosecution and the
22 Trial Chamber, so I'll leave that aside now.
23 Now, as for the question of immunity, I would like to ask that
24 this Trial Chamber not make a ruling on that subject because I have
25 initiated an investigation because Mr. Holbrooke wasn't speaking only in
1 the name of America
2 Security Council. So he was speaking on behalf of the Contact Group as
3 well. So it was an agreement that he made with me together with the
4 agreement of the Contact Group, and it has been a source of great
5 suffering, my family's suffering, the suffering of my friends, Republika
6 Srpska, and Serbia
7 There was enormous pressure exerted over there to Gestapo levels,
8 so I do have the right to raise the question, to investigate it. The
9 investigation will not be completed until I'm given a team of people to
10 assist me, but at any rate I cannot leave things there because it wasn't
11 a private conversation and agreement between myself and Mr. Holbrooke or
12 myself and the United States alone. It was all the permanent members of
13 the Security Council who are members of the Contact Group. So that is a
14 question that we must deal with and I would like to ask the Trial Chamber
15 to refrain from ruling in the matter because there will be new evidence.
16 I have irrefutable evidence that NATO did try to liquidate me. First of
17 all, that they didn't want to arrest me for a time and that was in
18 conformity with the agreement reached with Mr. Holbrooke and then later
19 on, afterwards, when the Prosecutor, main Prosecutor, Richard Goldstone,
20 refused to meet those demands, there was an attempt at liquidation; and
21 the great troubles that have resulted from that, my troubles and
22 suffering, my family's troubles and suffering, and friends, as well as
23 Republika Srpska and Serbia
24 ruling, I would be grateful for that until I complete my investigation.
25 And then I would like to raise the issue of the indictment as
1 well and then that will complete what I wanted to say for the time being.
2 So I wanted to say a few words about the indictment and the various
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Let me interrupt you there and deal with the
5 matter that you've just raised.
6 I have a translation problem at the moment. Could I have the
7 English, please.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, thank you.
10 I will convey to my colleagues what you've said about not
11 determining that issue at this stage, and we will consider all you've
12 said. Bear in mind, however, that there is a legal issue involved in
13 your submission and that goes to the power of a person such as Holbrooke
14 to give undertakings on behalf of a Tribunal. And that also is an issue
15 that has to be approached and determined by the Trial Chamber. In other
16 words, whether even if all you've said is true, it ought to have or could
17 have any influence or impact on the work of an independent Tribunal.
18 Now, I know that you have your own views about the independence
19 of the Tribunal, which is a separate matter, but I alert you to the fact
20 that there is a legal issue there. I hope you have taken full legal
21 advice before making the submissions you've made and that you're not
22 selling yourself short by a failure to secure proper legal representation
23 on this particularly important issue.
24 Now, the next matter you want to raise is that of the indictment
25 itself, but I would like to be ahead of you in the queue on that one, if
1 you don't mind, unless it's something to do with the current indictment.
2 But if your question relates to where on earth is the indictment that the
3 Prosecutor said he would be producing instead of the existing indictment,
4 then I want to raise that rather than you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before that I would like to say
6 that everything that was done by Mr. Holbrooke led to a Security Council
7 resolution. He was working on behalf of the Contact Group and the
8 Security Council. That is to say that this is not an issue that can be
9 dismissed simply as a unilateral, or rather, bilateral agreement between
10 myself and the United States. Everything that Holbrooke did led to
11 resolutions and activity on the part of the Security Council, that is to
12 say he did act on behalf of the permanent members of the Security
13 Council. That's the point. Not to go into the injustice leveled against
14 me now, the fact that I lived there way for 13 years from a social point
15 of view, from a family point of view, as if I were dead. It's not an
16 easy thing to deal with.
17 As for the indictment itself, I will wait for you to say what you
18 have to say, and then I will have something to say in respect of the
19 material that I've been receiving from the OTP. So I imagine that you
20 will allow me to say that.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Before we turn to the question of the indictment,
22 Mr. Tieger, can you clarify for me the situation in relation to certain
23 filings made between Monday and today? There are two filings relating to
24 Rule 70 which appear to knock each other out, and therefore they appear
25 to be academic. But there were two other filings related to protective
1 measures. Now, have these actually been intimated to the accused?
2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if we're talking about the same
3 documents, I believe that's -- that is the case.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, one is headed a motion which is partly ex
5 parte seeking delayed disclosure of the identity of a witness, and the
6 other one is your notification of protective measures currently in force
7 for witnesses, but attached to it is certain relief that you seek from
8 the Trial Chamber in relation to pseudonyms. Now, have these been
9 intimated to the accused?
10 MR. TIEGER: The -- with respect to the supporting materials,
11 Your Honour, they haven't had any impact on the disclosure of the
12 supporting materials pursuant to 66(A)(i) and that has been provided with
13 the exception of --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Whoa, that's not my question. My question is:
15 Have these two motions been intimated to the accused, do you know --
16 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: They have.
18 MR. TIEGER: The ex parte portion is only an annex.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed. But they've both been intimated and
20 they've both been intimated in Serbian, have they?
21 MR. TIEGER: I don't believe so, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Perhaps someone else can clarify that
23 for me then.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, these two filings from the
25 Prosecution were distributed to the accused in English but not in B/C/S.
1 The translation will be ready tomorrow.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: The practice that's being followed, Mr. Karadzic,
3 pending a decision about the use of language is that any motions or
4 notices presented by the Prosecution are being intimated to you in
5 Serbian, and there are two that I'm aware of because the English versions
6 are available, but apparently they've not been translated yet. So you'll
7 get them in due course. They relate to certain formalities connected
8 with witness protection, but it will be for you to decide whether there
9 are any responses you intend to make to these. They may not require a
10 response, but it's for you to decide once you've looked at them whether
11 they cause you any concern.
12 Now, the only other motion I think I'm aware of at the instance
13 of the Prosecution relates to the form of written material submitted by
14 the accused to the Trial Chamber, and I think on a regular basis,
15 Mr. Tieger, in your filings you also refer to the need for the
16 Trial Chamber to alert the accused to the style that's appropriate for
17 formal proceedings in this Tribunal. Is there any other matter that the
18 Prosecution has raised in the form of a motion that I've not referred to?
19 MR. TIEGER: None that I can think of, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
21 Well, that matter is also now at the stage where the
22 Trial Chamber can consider whether to deal with it. As far as the two
23 earlier motions referred to that have not yet been intimated in B/C/S are
24 concerned, the time for responding, Mr. Karadzic, will run from the date
25 on which you get the Serbian version. The English version at the moment
1 does not trigger the operation of the rule obliging you to respond within
2 14 days. So you will get the full allocation of time once you have it in
3 your own language.
4 The only other issue relating to your representation that I want
5 to clarify at this stage is the one I mentioned the last time we were
6 here, which was providing assistance from the Registry to make sure that
7 you were able to do things in the routine way so that someone was able to
8 help you and put documents in the right format, comply with the Rules
9 regarding time-limits and so on, and also the possibility of a language
10 assistant to ensure that any translation difficulties are overcome.
11 Now, I understand the Registry are addressing that in a number of
12 ways, but have you had some sort of discussion with the Registry about
13 additional assistance they can give you as long as you are defending
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Precisely today I had contact with
16 people from this office, and I will accept this technical assistance.
17 As for problems related to the material I have been receiving are
18 of a completely different nature. I can disregard, or rather, forgive
19 the one-day delay. The material I was supposed to receive by the 15th, I
20 received only yesterday and I received some of it today. I was supposed
21 to receive it the day before yesterday to be specific. For the most
22 part, most of this material is unusable, or rather, barely usable. There
23 is a man who repairs computers who's been coming to help me all the time
24 so that I can review the material; however, the material has been coming
25 in on a gradual basis. Sometimes --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I there stop you. That is the next item I'm
2 going to -- let's hear the Prosecution version of that and then you've
3 got the -- you will have the floor to explain the difficulties.
4 Mr. Tieger, there was an order for disclosure by the 15th of
5 September of the material which falls under 66(A)(i). What happened?
6 MR. TIEGER: The following happened, Your Honour. The material
7 was disclosed on September 15th. Two documents that had inadvertently
8 been omitted from that bulk of disclosure were provided the next day.
9 The Court is aware based on the filings by the Prosecution that five
10 documents were subject to Rule 70 protections, those are the documents to
11 which the Court referred earlier. We received permission on the 16th and
12 disclosed on the 17th, and that completed the Rule 66(A)(i) obligation
14 JUDGE BONOMY: And all that will be missing is any redaction
15 which has been authorised by previous orders of the Court?
16 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour -- and I should also
17 mention that there's one additional document that as the Court is aware
18 is subject to the motion for temporary delayed disclosure.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's one of the two documents that I just
20 referred to?
21 MR. TIEGER: That's what I understood.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: That have yet to be intimated to Mr. Karadzic?
23 MR. TIEGER: That's what I understood, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
25 Now just to complete my understanding of the picture, how was
1 disclosure effected?
2 MR. TIEGER: I can -- I will look at my case manager for
3 confirmation, but my understanding is the materials are provided to the
4 Registry electronically and then for delivery to the accused.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: And does electronically mean a CD?
6 MR. TIEGER: That's correct.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Karadzic, I think that's the material
8 that you were turning your attention to and telling me that it was barely
9 usable. Explain the difficulty, please.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, the material is
11 incomplete and there seems to be something wrong with the CDs. So very
12 often I had to ask for help with the computer so that the material can be
13 readable. The material does not contain enough material from the
14 previous indictments, and that is what I have asked for: All the
15 material from all the indictments.
16 Also, there have been notes on some of these documents stating
17 that some of these documents are under seal because the trials have been
18 completed and the final judgements rendered. I'm going to appeal that.
19 Also, I have some material that I don't know what to do with. Since now
20 I should read hundreds or perhaps even thousands of pages of testimony
21 from people coming from very small villages, and perhaps this will not be
22 included in the indictment, and this exhausts all of my resources,
23 financial, mental, whatever, and perhaps none of this will appear or some
24 of it only will appear in the new indictment. So perhaps I've been doing
25 all of this in vain.
1 You've clarified to me now that my dead-lines will actually start
2 running from the moment I receive the Serbian version, so I'm not going
3 to refer to that any more specifically now.
4 So these are the problems I've had with the electronic reading of
5 these documents, the fact that there have been documents that are
6 incomplete, some of them are under seal; and also I do not have material
7 from some of the other indictments. Also, there has been a great deal of
8 testimony from some very small villages and that perhaps will not even be
9 included in my indictment.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: As I said before, I've got to work, as you have to
11 work at the moment, with the indictment we've got, it's the only one
12 we've got. And there might never be another one see the light of day. I
13 don't know. We'll turn to it in a moment but even if we're given an
14 assurance that there's going to be some proposed amendment, I don't know
15 what I and my colleagues will ultimately decide about whether that should
16 be authorised. So I've got to follow the Rules as they stand in relation
17 to the indictment that is current.
18 What the Prosecution are bound to give you within 30 days, as it
19 turned out, by the 15th of September are copies of the supporting
20 material which accompanied the indictment when they sought confirmation,
21 and that's an awful long time ago, as well as prior statements obtained
22 from you. So what the CDs contain is material which existed when your
23 indictment was first confirmed. Now, the significance of that, no matter
24 what you say about the quality of the contents, the significance is that
25 it triggers the time running for you to raise preliminary motions. These
1 are -- and these include objections to the indictment as set out in the
2 Rules. And I think we can take it that that day started as of yesterday
3 because the 15th involved disclosure of the bulk of the material; the
4 16th involved another five or -- five statements or seven statements, I
5 can't remember --
6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, sorry, excuse me, just to clarify. The
7 16th involved two documents that should have been included in the 15th
8 and the 17th involved the five statements --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: 17th.
10 So these are the dates that would normally have triggered the
11 running of the time, and since I assume that they're all in Serbian, the
12 time will be running from today. So you've got the provisions of Rule 73
13 now -- sorry, 72 now running, and you've 30 days to tender any motion you
14 intend to tender in terms of Rule 72.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we accept these minor oversteps,
16 will I be granted the same benevolence if I slightly overstep my
18 JUDGE BONOMY: That will always depend on circumstances,
19 Mr. Karadzic, as you know.
20 But can I say to you that in relation to the various points
21 you're making about the electronic disclosure, the CD and what it has,
22 you should feel free to communicate with me about technical issues and
23 procedural issues as regularly as you wish as long as you notify the
24 Prosecution of the terms of which you are communicating. And if you
25 would be so good as to draw up a list of deficiencies of the material on
1 the CD, then I will consider the position. But bear in mind that it's
2 not necessarily meant to be all the material that will support the case
3 against you.
4 For example, there's no obligation at this stage yet to have
5 disclosed to you any subsequent statements, that's subsequent to the
6 confirmation of the indictment, that may have been taken from witnesses.
7 So there's going to be lots more material coming your way. And now that
8 I know that we've got Rule 66(A)(i) out of the way, then I can turn my
9 attention to a time -- a calendar of dates for further procedure in the
10 case; and that I will be doing over the next couple of weeks.
11 Now, is there anything else that you wish to say on the subject
12 of the disclosure of these materials or are you content that I'm open to
13 any submission in writing you wish to make once you've looked at the
14 detailed difficulties that these present?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to see what it is that
16 I'm up against. I'd like to know what the indictment is and what the
17 Prosecution holds against me. I would also like to see the supporting
18 material, what they have against me in that material, I would like to
19 receive all of that. I would like it to be of proper quality so I know
20 what I'm up against, I know what I'm dealing with. That is a basic
22 All right, as far as the indictment is concerned we'll deal with
23 that after you have spoken again.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's turn to that now.
25 Mr. Tieger, the reason this keeps coming up is because the
1 Prosecutor made a press statement shortly after the arrest of
2 Mr. Karadzic, saying that the indictment was to be reviewed. And
3 everyone I think is waiting with baited breath on the outcome of that
4 review. What is the position?
5 MR. TIEGER: The position, Your Honour, is that we expect to file
6 the motion for amended indictment and the proposed amended indictment by
7 Monday, and we're doing everything possible to file it, if we can, by
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Your reaction to that, Mr. Karadzic?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, this is what my
11 reaction is. Instead of insisting on that, or rather, insisting on an
12 expeditious trial or very hasty trial, it would be better for the
13 Prosecution to speed up their own work. I ask you to caution them with
14 regard to these statements they keep making time and again, that all of
15 this will proceed as speedily as possible. This really disturbs my
16 defence and disturbs me in general, it also creates a feeling among the
17 general public that everything has already been decided and that they
18 know something that no one else knows. I ask you to ask them to set a
19 dead-line today when they're going to come up with this new indictment so
20 they do not overstep this dead-line yet again two or three days, which
21 has been their custom.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: The problem I have with that, Mr. Karadzic,
23 is - and I'm entirely with you on it, that this ought to have been dealt
24 with by now - but the problem I have is that the Prosecution can propose
25 the amendment of an indictment at any time. I can't set a time-limit by
1 which they must submit the motion. All I can do as a member of a Trial
2 Bench is take into account any delay in tendering the proposed amendment
3 when we come to decide whether to allow the Prosecution to amend the
4 indictment. So what you have is a pretty firm indication today from the
5 Prosecution that it will be no later than Monday, and they hope that it
6 will be Friday of this week.
7 Now, that event will then trigger the appropriate period for you
8 to respond and deal with the arguments that are advanced in the motion
9 seeking to amend the indictment. With -- perhaps Mr. Tieger would also
10 elaborate for Mr. Karadzic what material will accompany the motion just
11 in broad terms, the nature of that material.
12 MR. TIEGER: I'm -- well, obviously, Your Honour, the motion will
13 be accompanied by the requisite supporting material to the extent
14 specifications are provided in the proposed amended indictment that were
15 not contained in the current indictment or to the extent there are any
16 new charges. So I think what we'll see that is different is
17 specification of particularized incidents and supporting materials for
18 those that may not have been -- that may not have accompanied the
19 original indictment.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, if they were simply
21 bringing their indictment into better shape, expressing things better,
22 might simply present an application to amend the indictment with no
23 additional materials such as statements and so on. If they introduce new
24 charges, then they will have to produce along with the motion the
25 statements, the material, the evidence, which supports the charges. And
1 if indeed they alter any of the charges or seek to alter them, and that's
2 because of additional material they've obtained, they will have to give
3 you that additional supporting material.
4 So at the moment, I can't tell you exactly what's in there
5 because I have no more idea than you, but you will get a bundle of
6 material, it would appear, by no later than Monday explaining why the
7 Prosecution now seek to amend the indictment against you. Now, it's
8 progress. I can do no more, though, than make it clear that we will take
9 account of all the circumstances surrounding the amendment of the
10 indictment when we come to decide what to do about the application.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I ask for this indictment to be
12 treated like a perfectly new one because it has been announced to me as a
13 new one. I cannot accept that this is just some kind of alteration,
14 cosmetic alteration, and I have invested quite a bit of time and effort
15 into this. It has been announced as new. It's not a made-up old
16 indictment, no. If that was the intention of the Prosecution, then I
17 kindly ask that they be stopped from doing that and could I get an
18 additional 30 days to state my views regarding this indictment and
19 everything else that a new indictment requires?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, when you make that sort of motion,
21 Mr. Karadzic, I'm inclined to think that you're making it for the sake of
22 making it. You can't make a motion for additional time and expect the
23 Court to be sympathetic when you haven't even seen the volume of material
24 involved and how complex it might be. If when you see it, you feel that
25 14 days is not an adequate period of time for you to respond, then you
1 should bring that to the attention of the Court. That's the normal way
2 these things are done, and there's substance in what you might say. And
3 if the amendment includes new charges, then you are back at square one in
4 relation to these charges because you will then have to -- you will then
5 have to have an appearance again or a hearing at which you have to tender
6 pleas, and you'll have the pleasure of me pronouncing you not guilty yet
7 again when you refuse to tender your plea.
8 So we've got the opportunity once you receive the indictment for
9 you to make any suggestion to the Trial Chamber you think appropriate
10 about the time that ought to be taken or ought to be allowed to you to
11 respond to it.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This does differ from what I had
13 heard from Mr. Orie, who said that if there is a new indictment then I
14 have a new period starting and also I enter a new plea. Look it up in
15 the transcript. That is what was said, that if there is a new indictment
16 there will be a new period that would run for me. That is why I didn't
17 read this new indictment, or rather, the old indictment. I didn't want
18 to squander my resources if something is going to be derogated or
19 changed, I really want to see this new version. I have wasted already a
20 month and a half.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think that's exactly what I've said to
22 you. If this indictment has any new charge, you're back at square one in
23 relation to that charge and you have to tender a plea and the time-limits
24 run from that plea as they ran from the previous plea. But we haven't
25 seen yet the extent to which it may include new charges or if it's in
1 fact a completely different indictment. Let's wait and see and make
2 decisions accordingly, rather than speculate. The last thing I expect
3 you want any of us to do in this course of these proceedings is
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For me it is new from every
6 conceivable point of view because I have been misled to the effect that
7 there will be a new indictment and that I will have a new opportunity to
8 enter a new plea. Therefore, I have not even looked at this indictment,
9 as I have been misled to believe that I will once again be given this
10 right. Therefore, I should be allowed a new beginning if there is a new
11 indictment because I've lost all this time to study the indictment.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll deal with it as the circumstances
13 develop once that motion is made.
14 Is there any other matter, Mr. Tieger, that you wish to raise?
15 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any other matter, Mr. Karadzic, that you
17 wish to raise? Perhaps I should make one thing clear to you before I ask
18 you that question. I would normally fix a date now for the next
19 Status Conference, but I think it might be better in the circumstances to
20 see what happens in relation to the motion for the new indictment. In
21 other words, once we get that motion and once you've had a chance to look
22 at it and indicate a likely time-scale for your response, then I might I
23 think at that stage fix an appropriate date for the next
24 Status Conference.
25 Now, meanwhile -- and that won't be far away. We will certainly
1 have another of these hearings within the next month.
2 Meanwhile, is there anything else that you wish to raise?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I'd like to say that
4 I don't expect you to comply with the requests to get through all this
5 speedily, hastily, not because I am defending myself but because this is
6 unusual, extraordinary, it's a big trial and there's no need to speed it
7 up. I will avail myself of the right to ask that if the indictment
8 appears, I will treat it as a new indictment; and I retain the right to
9 do more things in the pre-trial stage with respect to investigating the
10 immunity question and the jurisdiction of this Tribunal. But having said
11 that, I have nothing further to add here today.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm grateful to you for the assistance you
13 have given me in trying to make progress in the case and also to the
14 Prosecution for dealing with each of the issues so expeditiously. We are
15 now adjourned, and I will notify you of the date for the next hearing,
16 probably towards the end of next week or the beginning of the following
17 week, once you're able to give an indication of the time you might take
18 to respond to the Prosecution motion.
19 Thank you.
20 --- Whereupon the Status Conference
21 adjourned at 4.02 p.m.