Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 103

 1                           Friday, 20 February 2009

 2                           [Status Conference]

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  This is the case

 7     number IT-95-5/18-PT, The Prosecutor versus Radovan Karadzic.

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Karadzic, I take it, as always, that you appear and represent

10     yourself.

11             THE ACCUSED:  Yes, you are right, sir.

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  Can I take my headphones off?

13             THE ACCUSED:  No, sir, I'm looking for Serbian channel.

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  Number 4.  No sorry, no sorry.  My mistake.  Is it

15     5?  6.

16             I'll start again, then.  You represent yourself as before.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, and that will be the case

18     until the end.

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

20             This date for this Status Conference was chosen in the hope that

21     it would be shortly after the question of the amendment to the indictment

22     had been resolved, and it looked as though that was how things had worked

23     out, until earlier this week, when the Prosecution made a motion for

24     re-consideration of the Chamber's decision to amend the First Amended

25     Indictment, and that's the subject that I want to deal with, first of

Page 104

 1     all, in the course of this Status Conference.  And I'm going to ask the

 2     Prosecution for certain information.

 3             But, first of all, I'll take from the Prosecution the

 4     appearances.  Mr. Tieger.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Alan Tieger, Hildegard

 6     Uertz-Retzlaff, and case manager Iain Reid for the Prosecution.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.  Now, could you explain what has

 8     happened in relation to the decision to amend the indictment and the

 9     motion that you made subsequently.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             The motion, as I believe the Court is aware, focuses on one

12     aspect of the schedule, that is, annex B, and scheduled incident 18.2.

13     This incident was specified in the schedule as our motion indicated that

14     there was material to support the inclusion of that incident and, as a

15     result of an administrative error, in instead of the supporting material

16     references to the proper page numbers, the supporting material for

17     scheduled incident 18.1 was included twice.  In short, the same -- the

18     wrong references to the same witness in the same proceeding.  And, of

19     course, I hope the motion indicates that the Prosecution acknowledges and

20     regrets the error.

21             Our motion also indicates, however, that it is in the interest of

22     justice for the Court to receive the actual supporting materials and to

23     order the restoration of scheduled incident 18.2 of annex (B) to the

24     indictment.  We've indicated, as I believe, that this is an important

25     incident.  There are significant number of victims.  There is the

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 1     approximate presence of the accused.  The Rules themselves, that is

 2     47(f), provide for the subsequent provision of omitted materials that

 3     support either specific charges or scheduled incidents.  When that can be

 4     easily remedied, it will not cause any prejudicial delay in the

 5     proceedings because of the stage of the proceedings and because the Rule

 6     72 --

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  These are -- and if I can just stop you there.  It

 8     may or may not be appropriate to go into these additional issues.  I just

 9     wanted clarification of what the problem was so that everyone is clear

10     here what we are dealing with.

11             Now, Mr. Tieger, the decision that the Trial Chamber made found

12     that there was no supporting material for three incidents.  Your motion

13     is related to one particular incident.  It's quite clear to me what that

14     relates to.  Are you saying that have you no intention of raising either

15     of the other two?

16             MR. TIEGER:  We didn't raise it at the time, Your Honour, because

17     of our concern over this incident.  In particular, that is not to say

18     that -- I mean, I think the nature of the problem with respect to the

19     other two incidents -- well, specifically with respect to the incident,

20     the number of which I don't recall, but in Krupa, could be just as easily

21     remedied as the Court is aware.  It's a discrepancy between the date and

22     supporting materials.

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  Is this the Petar Kocic elementary school.

24             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct.

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  There is a mistake a -- inconsistency between the

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 1     materials supporting the charge and the terms of the charge.  The

 2     supporting material refers to August, and the charge refers to May.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah.  And, Your Honour, that was not intended to be

 4     a reference to -- a reference to two incidents, that is, one in the

 5     supporting materials and one in the schedule.  It was instead a

 6     discrepancy between the dates.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah.  But it's basic.  They either have to meet

 8     or one doesn't support the other.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  That is correct.

10             JUDGE BONOMY:  Right.  But your motion, therefore, is confined to

11     the one that you consider most important?

12             MR. TIEGER:  That is correct, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Karadzic, this, a situation, gives rise to a motion, which

15     the Chamber has to consider.  It has no option.  The motion is to

16     re-consider the decision to amend the indictment and to allow the

17     Prosecution to add this one further incident, one of the three that we

18     excluded.  We were also to stay the effect of our previous decision.  We

19     refused to do that so that the indictment was presented as you know on

20     Wednesday.  That doesn't, though, prevent the Prosecution from going

21     ahead with this motion.  I can't tell them that this is something that's

22     incompetent.  It is open to them to make the application, and in the

23     ordinary course there is a period for you to respond.

24             Now in relation to all the other amendments, you responded on

25     points of principle and on points related to the expeditious and fair

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 1     conduct of the trial.  You did not take issue with the detail of the

 2     proposed amendment.

 3             The -- so what I'd like it know, first of all, is whether have

 4     you any particular point that you think you will wish to make about the

 5     incident, and including this incident, in the indictment.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to point

 7     out that even the Prosecutor with the vast resources it has at its

 8     disposal, and far greater advantage in that respect with respect to my

 9     resources and the instruments and vehicles that can I use, did not

10     succeed to this day to get through everything they wanted to.  And over

11     the past two or three days, I have received an enormous amount of papers

12     and documents which I found it hard to leaf through.  Some of them are

13     just translations which I just received.  And as for the indictment, I

14     still do not know whether it is in force or not and whether I'm going to

15     be asked to plead today or not, according to the indictment.

16             Now the Prosecution is criticizing for me not being precise

17     enough on the 6th of August when I had not a single advisor with respect

18     to the Holbrooke Agreement; although, they know full well and exactly

19     what I had in mind when I referred to that, and now they're asking me to

20     give way to them, to show a little leeway with respect to the mistakes

21     and omissions they made.  Of course, that is far from what I intend to

22     do.

23             As for the indictment itself it will be --

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  No, the Prosecution are not asking you for leeway,

25     they're asking the Bench for leeway, and you have the right to take your

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 1     stand on this.  And I just want to be clear, first of all, whether you do

 2     take the stand that you wish to resist this change to the indictment

 3     because if that is a live issue, then you will not be asked to plead to

 4     the indictment today.  The Chamber will, first of all, have to decide

 5     what to do about this motion.

 6             If, on the other hand, you do not consider that you have any

 7     other particular points to make, then we can obviously proceed more

 8     expeditiously.  It's as simple as that.  But if you want to respond to

 9     this motion to re-consider, and you have points that you want to make in

10     relation to it, then I have to decide what time you ought to have to do

11     that.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I thought that I was

13     expected to do something.

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  No.  I'm just trying to see if there is an issue

15     here that needs to be explored.  I mean, for example you're -- in terms

16     of the rules, the normal process is that you would have 14 days in which

17     to respond to this motion for re-consideration, in light of -- following

18     upon the translation of -- of the motion.

19             However, before deciding whether that's the right course to

20     follow, I would like to know, first of all, whether you do wish to oppose

21     it, and, secondly in broad terms, on what ground you wish to oppose it,

22     and then I will consider what period of time is necessary.  It may be

23     that 14 days is quite unnecessary in all the circumstances, particularly

24     in view of the line you have taken so far in relation to the indictment,

25     which I understand and fully appreciate and the Trial Chamber

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 1     appreciates.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is too much of a major issue

 3     for me to state my views without consulting my legal advisors.  And

 4     they're only around three days a month to visit me.

 5             So before I state my views I have to consult them, and I'm sure

 6     that we'll avail ourselves of all the rights to object and to respond to

 7     the motion.

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, you see, that's very unhelpful because you

 9     are counsel in your case, and the Chamber, when it comes into one of

10     these hearings, expects to be assisted by counsel.

11             Now, what you're say is that you're trying to conduct this case

12     but you're incapable of conducting, and that's an unsatisfactory

13     situation for the Court to be in.  I expect you when you come here to

14     have a position on the various issues that have to be addressed by the

15     Trial Chamber.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tried that tell you yesterday and

17     today I received a whole pile of papers that I haven't even managed to

18     leaf through, so even if I to have counsel, during a short period of

19     time, I would not be able to state my views in the matter.  And

20     regardless of the fact that I represent myself, I have to consult my

21     advisors.  I have to have advisors and consult them.  And even if I were

22     a lawyer, I would have to do the same.  So that's completely regular.

23     It's within my rights.  It's within my rights to respond and within these

24     prescribed deadlines.

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  You see, what you may be claiming is a right to

Page 110

 1     pretend to represent yourself, and we want to be sure that that's not

 2     what's happening here, that you are actually representing yourself.  I

 3     have got to be satisfied that you're capable of doing this job, and it's

 4     not sounding that way just at this minute.  This is a very minor matter

 5     in the overall scheme of this case, and it's very surprising that you are

 6     incapable of dealing with it.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then I'll answer you.  I am

 8     capable of dealing with it, and I'll use all my rights to respond to the

 9     question.

10             Does that sound clearer to you now?

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, the response to the question is:  Do you

12     seek to answer to this motion to amend the indictment further?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, Mr. Karadzic, while this was -- this

15     allegation is one of a grave nature, what we are dealing with here

16     procedurally is fairly minor in the overall context of the process so far

17     and, in particular, in the overall context of the motion to amend the

18     indictment.  And it is in my opinion that to allow you until Wednesday of

19     next week to respond to this motion would be perfectly adequate.  And,

20     therefore, the order is that the time to respond to the motion will be

21     restricted so that the response will be required on Wednesday of next

22     week, which is the 25th of February.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to express my

24     dissatisfaction with the fact that this deadline has been shortened to

25     such a major question, not only because I am limited and restricted in

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 1     all other aspects.  I don't have a team set up, my resources are nil, and

 2     even if they were fully replenished, I could not respond within the

 3     deadline prescribed.

 4             And as far as I'm concerned, every question is a serious

 5     question.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  Now it follows from that decision that I will not

 7     be requiring you to plead to the indictment which is there, pending

 8     re-consideration of the decision to allow the Prosecution to amend the

 9     indictment.

10             The Further Appearance, at which the plea will be tendered, will

11     be adjourned.

12                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  I'll indicate to you before we finish this

14     afternoon when the Further Appearance is likely to be.  It will be

15     impossible, because of the other commitments of the Tribunal, to state a

16     specific time and date in the course of this hearing.  All I can do will

17     be to give you an indication.

18             I want to turn now to the question of disclosure.  Now on that

19     subject, Mr. Tieger, who do I address?

20             Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you have compiled a report dated the 13th of

21     February which indicates the numbers of documents disclosed, and part of

22     that disclosure is in terms of Rule 66(A)(ii) which is a rule that deals

23     with statements of witnesses that you intend to lead at the trial.  The

24     document also indicates that what's been disclosed are mainly expert

25     reports.

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 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, it's expert reports and

 2     experts's testimony, statements, everything related to 23 experts.

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  And it's restricted to experts, is it?

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.  And now we are actually

 5     proceeding now to disclose materials related to international witnesses,

 6     because we have actually a schedule for our disclosure internally, and we

 7     start with those witnesses where the amount of disclosure is the most

 8     complex.  And that's the expert and the international witnesses.

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, is 23 experts the sum total of the

10     anticipated experts.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  There is it yet another expert we couldn't

12     disclose yet because of clearance for Rule 70.

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  So, in the end, the maximum number of experts

14     likely to be called is 24?

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  24, or 25, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  Do you consider that the disclosure of these

17     reports has had any impact in triggering the application of Rule 94 bis?

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We will definitely file motions to this

19     effect.

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  So -- is your answer no?  You're saying it doesn't

21     have that effect until you take some other action.  Is that your

22     position.

23             The Rule 98 bis says:

24             @the full statement under report of any expert witness shall be

25     disclosed within the time limit described by the Trial Chamber or by the

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 1     Pre-Trial Judge."

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, the then -- that disclosure triggers a 30-day

 4     period for a response.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, is it your submission that the 30 days is

 7     running, or do you say that something needs to be done in terms of Rule

 8     94 to start it running.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  According to the Rule, it should actually be

10     left to disclose these -- these materials.  However, we have not, in the

11     disclosure letter to the accused, we have not mentioned this rule, so I

12     would think it perhaps a bit unfair now to just say, It's running and you

13     don't know about it.

14             So I think we -- we actually had intended to file a motions to

15     this effect, but we can also, of course, write specific letters to the

16     accused.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  So you'll agree with me that something else,

18     whatever it is, should be done to trigger the effect of Rule 94 bis?

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  Okay.  Has the disclosure of these various reports

21     been in both English and B/C/S?

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Not completely, Your Honour.  We are still

23     working on certain transcripts.  We have disclosed for -- we have

24     disclosed some transcripts in B/C/S but not all, because we don't have

25     them available at the moment.  We have a team of 15 people working on the

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 1     transcribing project, but it's just very time-consuming.

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  Are you able to identify a number that have been

 3     fully disclosed in both languages?

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, Mr. Reid is looking for this,

 6     and we'll get to the answer soon.

 7             But to my knowledge, no.  I think there's still -- there are

 8     still even for those where we are very much advanced, there is some issue

 9     outstanding.  For instance, just to give an example, we have disclosed

10     everything for Mr. Theunens, who is a military expert in intend to call,

11     and we still have not completed his testimony transcription in B/C/S for

12     the for the Gotovina case.

13             So, for him, it's one item outstanding.  For the others, it's

14     probably even more.

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, in light of the discussion earlier, it's

17     possible - and I'll clarify this before we finish - but it's possible

18     that there be another Status Conference within the next two weeks,

19     roughly two weeks from now, subject to other checks that are being made

20     at the moment.

21             It's clear that the position is not clear enough.  It's too

22     confused at the moment in relation to these reports for an order to be

23     made.  But you can take it that it will be the aim of the Court to make

24     an order about expert reports the next time there is a Status Conference,

25     so you should bear that in mind in making the arrangements that you are

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 1     making.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Karadzic, the document which you would get and

 4     which I first saw last week, at the end of last week, in fact the

 5     beginning of this week, when I saw it, about the number of documents

 6     which have been disclosed to you, indicated certain figures about

 7     statements of witnesses.  It was not clear to me until just now that

 8     these are all expert witness statements.

 9             It is arguable that the very disclosure of these to you could

10     have had an impact on the time available to you to respond, but the

11     Prosecution position, with which I agree, is that the simple fact of

12     giving you that material does not start any period of time running, and

13     the period for you to react to these, in terms of Rule 94 bis, will not

14     start running until the Court makes an order and no order is going to be

15     made on that today.  However, it is possible that an order might be made

16     the next time the Court meets.  That can only be decided in the light of

17     the state of documents at that stage, the state of translation, and the

18     extent to which the disclosure has been completed.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I appreciate that.  Thank you.  But

20     it was only today that I saw this.  I have this list of some 105.000

21     pages.  Quite a few of these disclosed pages are only referred to in

22     terms of their numbers in the EDS system.  At this point, I cannot use

23     it:  First of all, because my Defence team hasn't been completed yet;

24     and, secondly, as I've given up on asking for documents on paper, and

25     since I agreed to receive documents in electronic form, it would be good

Page 116

 1     if I were to receive it on CDs or DVDs.  I have filed a motion to that

 2     effect, because, really, I have so many obstacles in terms of preparing

 3     my Defence, that I needed to do that.

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  The document I have, which perhaps has been

 5     updated since as a result of inquiry, indicates a larger number of pages

 6     than you have just given.  I think where I see the figure 105.000 comes

 7     from, but I think the Prosecution would claim to have disclosed something

 8     in the order of 220.000 pages to you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I never received that paper.

10     However, what I referred to was what was disclosed until the 10th of

11     December.  105.000 pages.  Actually, I am now going to find the name of

12     your associate - I'm sure that you know who I'm talking about - this lady

13     who -- Yvonne Featherstone.  She intervened yesterday.  She intervened

14     yesterday and that's how I received all this information today.

15             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, that was on my instructions, Mr. Karadzic,

16     and she is one of the staff who sit in front of me here.

17             Now, there are two matters you've raised, one of which is quite

18     easy to deal with; the other I need to ask some questions of the

19     Prosecution.

20                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

21             JUDGE BONOMY:  Ms. Featherstone has just clarified for me that

22     the document I'm referring to is one that you have not, in fact, seen.

23     So I'll make sure it's sent to you, but it's a summary giving the total

24     of documents and pages disclosed to you.

25             But let me ask the position about documents simply being

Page 117

 1     disclosed by number.

 2             Is this the problem that's already been raised in one of the

 3     motions?

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's in the motion.

 5     Mr. Karadzic has asked for everything disclosed on DVDs or CDs, and we,

 6     actually, at the moment are only disclosing Rule 66(A) material and 65

 7     ter material on DVD and CD, while we disclosed the Rule 68 material via

 8     the EDS in a very particular Rule 68 folder.  And we have explained in

 9     our response why we do it this way, and why it would actually be much

10     more practical for everyone.

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  The Chamber has your motion on this point in

12     writing, Mr. Karadzic, and we now have a response from the Prosecution,

13     and we will deal with this quickly, and you will get a response to it

14     that explains the position.  Now, you'll have an opportunity, as I say,

15     fairly soon in court again to raise issues that may emerge as the result

16     of our decisions on your written motions.  I'm much keener to deal with

17     things orally in exchange with you than in writing, which, first of all,

18     causes delay, but, secondly, often causes misunderstanding, and sometimes

19     things are much better explained in court.

20             So we'll leave it until the decision is made on the points you've

21     raised with us, and give you an opportunity to comment when we're in

22     court the next time.

23             I want to go back briefly to the question of the amendment to the

24     indictment, and I want to mention something to you.  Your principle

25     motion responding to the motion to amend the indictment was to ask the

Page 118

 1     Trial Chamber to deal with the motion in a way that would identify a part

 2     of the case against you to go to trial so that everybody could

 3     concentrate on that one part.

 4             As you know, the Trial Chamber did not follow that course, and it

 5     didn't follow the course because it took the view that it's not open,

 6     it's not competent at this stage to do that.  But we have mentioned to

 7     you the possibility of raising this issue in a preliminary motion once

 8     the indictment is finally resolved and you tender your plea again, you

 9     may seek to address the provisions of Rule 72(A)(iii), which provides

10     that in a preliminary motion you can seek the severance of counts joined

11     in one indictment.

12             I'm expressing no view on the outcome of any such application.

13     I'm expressing no view on the powers of the Tribunal under that Rule.

14     I'm simply drawing your attention to wording which could be seen to give

15     you an argument for separating part of the indictment for trial.  And if

16     you decide to follow that route when you present any preliminary motion,

17     I want to make it clear to you now that the Trial Chamber will be greatly

18     assisted by you identifying clearly how the indictment might be separated

19     with a view to doing that.  In other words, how counts of the indictment

20     or charges in the indictment might be separated from others with a view

21     to a trial proceeding but not on the whole indictment.

22             Now, please do not misunderstand this as an indication that

23     that's going to happen.  But since you have raised it and made it such an

24     important point of your submission, it's only right that the Trial

25     Chamber should make it clear to you that there does appear at this stage

Page 119

 1     to be a way in which you can at least address the issue and invite the

 2     Trial Chamber to consider your position when it was not possible prior to

 3     finalising the indictment.

 4             I think this next -- oh, sorry.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have -- or, rather, I have

 6     raised question of challenging jurisdiction and amending the indictment,

 7     and the preliminary motions, and there are going to be at least ten of

 8     them referring to different grounds.

 9             If we look at it this way, we see that this is going to be a huge

10     trial that goes beyond the resources that the OTP has, let alone I.  Now

11     that I've been here for almost six months, I've been acting in good faith

12     in order to create a process, a trial, that is going to be important for

13     us, the peoples back there, and also for international justice and

14     international law.  I believe that many other countries would seeing how

15     the president of a state can be tried.  Indeed, as you have seen, there

16     have been no delays on my account.  I have been doing everything with

17     full propriety.  However, as I look at the indictment I see that this is

18     going to be a gigantic trial.  And -- anyway, this is going to be

19     mentioned in all my motions, so you will see what I think.

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  The point doesn't get any better for unnecessary

21     repetition, but thank you again for clarifying your position on this.

22             I want now to raise a procedure of which I think will assist

23     everyone involved in this case, and that is amplifying the Prosecution

24     approach to the trial at the earliest possible opportunity.

25             Once the indictment is resolved and we are into the serious stage

Page 120

 1     of exchanging -- or intimating lists of witnesses and exhibits which are

 2     actually going to be used in the case, Rule 65 ter (E) will come into

 3     play, and the Prosecution will have to provide a pre-trial brief.  That

 4     Rule, however, envisages the provision of -- the possible provision of

 5     a -- an earlier pre-trial brief, and in this case, it's my opinion that

 6     the progress of the trial will be greatly assisted by further

 7     amplification of the Prosecution case.

 8             So I have in mind, Mr. Tieger, to require the Prosecution to

 9     provide an interim pre-trial brief, which will -- apart from assisting

10     the accused by identifying the line that's going to be followed at the

11     trial, will assist the Chamber in marshalling the material, the large

12     amount of material, which we anticipate we will have to come to terms

13     with over the next few weeks.

14             Now, can I invite your comments on the sort of time-scale that

15     might be necessary to produce that?

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, as you can imagine, we were --

17     we are working on the pre-trial brief, on the witness list, and of the

18     exhibits -- on the exhibits list, and we have actually internal deadlines

19     for doing this, and we had actually anticipated to file our pre-trial

20     brief and the other 65 ter submissions in April, and that's what we could

21     manage.  And I personally, at the moment, cannot see how an interim

22     pre-trial brief could expedite this.  But, of course, I hadn't thought of

23     this before, so I'm -- I haven't thought that through.  But that was

24     actually our internal schedule, to have everything filed in April.

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  Now one of the problems for the Trial Chamber in

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 1     working out the likely time-scale has been the requirement that no order

 2     about a pre-trial brief in its final form can be made until the

 3     preliminary motions have been disposed of.  And, of course, we're not

 4     even at the stage where the time for a preliminary motion is running, and

 5     that's largely because of the way the case has been prosecuted so far, as

 6     you know.

 7             So it's important that the ultimate provision of this should not

 8     be delayed to the point where it disables the Trial Chamber from taking

 9     steps which it's in a position to take, to familiarise itself with the

10     case as fully as possible.

11             Now, it seems to me that over the next six weeks or so, the

12     person who is going to be most occupied with the preparation of material

13     for the Court's attention will be the accused, who will then be faced

14     with the issue of preliminary motions and any other issues that he

15     intended to raise, and that it's not unreasonable for the Court to ask

16     the Prosecution to use that time to give it a pre-trial brief on an

17     interim basis.

18             Now, the time-scale I have in mind is not much different from

19     yours.  I think yours is unrealistic in the context of the Rules as the

20     final date for the pre-trial brief.  On the other hand, I don't think

21     it's far off the mark in identifying when it would be reasonable to ask

22     you to outline your case in more detail.

23             So what I shall do is require you to file an interim pre-trial

24     brief on or before the 30th of March.  This shouldn't be regarded as

25     something that just has to be done in some form or other to satisfy the

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 1     strict terms of an order of the Court.  In view of the importance of this

 2     case, the Trial Chamber would expect that by that date you would be in a

 3     position to outline, in terms fairly close to the final terms, the case

 4     that you intend to present.

 5             Mr. Karadzic seems to have lost track of a time a little.  In his

 6     comments earlier, he has been here a bit longer than six months already,

 7     and that we must never lose sight of.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, just one question for

 9     clarification.

10             Does that mean an interim pre-trial brief including a witness

11     list and exhibits list, or just the pre-trial brief?

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  It is only the pre-trial brief, but my

13     understanding that your pre-trial brief would normally be heavily

14     referenced and footnoted to the witnesses, but a final -- so if it's

15     convenient to you, it would obviously be helpful to the Trial Chamber to

16     have the lists as well.  But the lists are not what I'm after.  I'm after

17     the outline of the case with reference to the supporting material, and

18     it's that document that will assist us.  But if you wish to provide the

19     additional assistance, that's fine.  I think it's -- it could be said to

20     become duplication, otherwise, unnecessary, and I don't insist on that,

21     whereas the work of the brief is something that I don't expect to be

22     duplication.  I expect that once it's done it will be a question of

23     refinement for the final version.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour, we will do that.

25                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

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 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  One other issue, then, that I have to raise with

 3     you, Mr. Karadzic, but it's really for information.  You have a motion

 4     outstanding for the interview of a potential witness on the question of

 5     immunity, and you seek the interview -- you seek authority for you,

 6     yourself, to carry out that interview.

 7             Do you have any information about the availability of the witness

 8     should a decision be made to allow that to happen?  In other words, can

 9     the interview be arranged at short notice, or are you not in a position

10     to tell me?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I am in a position to clarify

12     that.

13             First of all, I'd like to thank you for bringing it up, but I'd

14     like to ask you that I not be provided with material that have nothing to

15     do with me.  I have material that relates to Kosovo.  I had to have them

16     translated because they might be relevant but they do not have relevance.

17             Now, I'm trying to resolve all these problems without the Trial

18     Chamber, but in future I'll have to send in my motions to the Trial

19     Chamber in order to be able to defend myself from useless material.

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  Let me -- you're obviously on to a different

21     subject.  Can we come back to Kosovo.  Can you deal with the witness,

22     first of all, please.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  There are two problems in

24     that regard.  The basic problem is this:  The authorities in Serbia have

25     proclaimed statements by seven witnesses which they took with respect to

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 1     the circumstances.  They proclaimed it a state secret.  So now it's a

 2     problem for me to call those witnesses, to interview them, because most

 3     probably they don't dare give a statement because Serbia has proclaimed

 4     the whole matter to be a state secret, and I am convinced that those

 5     statements are highly important otherwise they wouldn't have been

 6     proclaimed a state secret.  And I will insist that Serbia lifts this

 7     state secrecy, as it has done pursuant to requests from the Prosecution,

 8     to do that from the statements, too.

 9             The second question is this:  For me to be allowed to have the

10     witness come in.  He was the foreign minister, Republika Srpska.  He's

11     not anybody, and he knows firsthand what was agreed during the

12     negotiations.  So I would like to interview him.  All the more so, as I

13     don't have the entire --

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  You're not really addressing my question.  My

15     question is:  Do you know whether there are any particular problems about

16     his attendance at the Tribunal.

17             Now, are you saying, first of all, that his prior statement has

18     been declared a state secret?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have been informed via Serbia

20     that all seven witness who were interviewed, that their statements have

21     been proclaimed state secrets, and I insist that Serbia lift that ban for

22     publicity.

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  And are you saying that they would have some

24     control over his attendance here or, alternatively, control over what he

25     could say to you?

Page 125

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] They cannot control what he might

 2     say, but I'm wondering whether I'm not going to subject him to any

 3     dangers in disclosing state secrets.  So I don't -- though, I don't think

 4     so because he was foreign minister of Republika Srpska, not Serbia.

 5             And the second problem is for him to be issued a visa and for his

 6     expenses to be paid and travel expenses, as well.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, that's a decision, as you know, that we

 8     indicated we would postpone until the outcome of the appeal which you

 9     have taken against the previous disclosure decision made by this Trial

10     Chamber.  I will convey that additional information to the other Judges

11     on the Trial Chamber, and if we have a different view or require more

12     information from you, we will contact you for that.  If you hear nothing

13     from us, it will be because we still intend to postpone the decision

14     until the Appeals Chamber has ruled on your appeal.

15             Mr. Tieger, are there any issues that you wish to raise with the

16     Court?

17             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, just one point of clarification, perhaps, Your

18     Honour.  The Court inquired about 94 bis and whether or not the

19     disclosure of the expert, previous experts' statements, was intended to

20     trigger or was regarded as triggering 94 bis.  I think it's important to

21     clarify that many of those statements basically fell under 66(A)(ii) as

22     prior statements, some of which are not that pertinent to these

23     proceedings, and many of which were not intended to be the statement --

24     the operative statements which will be relied upon in this proceeding.

25     Numbers of experts are indeed updating their reports with any recently

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 1     received materials, and I think that's what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff was

 2     alluding to when she suggested that we would be filing something

 3     contemporaneously both for notice purposes and for clarification

 4     purposes.

 5             But, mainly, I didn't want the Court to misunderstand on the

 6     basis of what we had suggested that all of those reports were intended to

 7     be operative in this particular case.

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  I think it important, though, Mr. Tieger, that

 9     expert reports are finalised at a fairly early stage.  The Rules are very

10     flexible with expert reports compared with the provisions about other

11     material, and the Trial Chamber had a discussion about this and take the

12     view that we should try to have these in the final form as soon as

13     possible.  I think I have formed him -- a wrong impression from the

14     earlier discussion that matters were further advanced than have you

15     indicated, and obviously we would not wish to make an order that would

16     result in a failure or cause you to be unable to organise the material in

17     its most up to date and articulate and comprehensive form.  So we would

18     encourage that that these things should be updated and compiled into the

19     most easily read form of all.  But I think you should give a degree of

20     priority to this, because it is something that we can get on with while

21     we're prevented from making progress in other fields.

22             So I hope that when we meet again there will be a number of these

23     that with actually be disclosed in terms of Rule 94 bis.  It doesn't

24     necessarily need to be them all, but it makes for progress if we get some

25     of them dealt with.

Page 127

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Understood, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Karadzic, is there any other matter that you

 3     wish to raise?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd like, first of all, to

 5     express my desire that the services of this Tribunal are encouraged to

 6     help me so that my Defence team can be completed as soon as possible,

 7     because I cannot put up an effective Defence - not because I'm

 8     representing myself - but because my Defence team hasn't been completed

 9     yet and because it is treated as some auxiliary staff.  And when they

10     need to be nominated and appointed, they are treated in one way, and look

11     at conflict of interests and things like that.  And when they have to pay

12     them, then they pay them as some auxiliary staff.  So I don't think that

13     even a smaller trial than this could be prepared under those conditions.

14             And, secondly, I'd like very kindly to request that you

15     re-consider your decision with respect to the deadline for the motions

16     and submissions.  I'm handicapped sufficiently as to time and resources

17     as it is, so I would be very happy if you were to extend the deadlines.

18             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, the only motion that has been subject of a

19     deadline today is the motion by the Prosecution for re-consideration of

20     the decision on the indictment.  And bearing in mind the way you

21     approached the -- approached the issue previously and bearing in mind

22     what you said today, then it seems to me that I have allowed you adequate

23     time to make your submission.  If you have a particular submission to

24     make that requires additional time, then, no doubt, you will put that to

25     the Tribunal in writing, but have you not done that in the course of this

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 1     hearing today.

 2             As far as your legal team is concerned, that is a matter between

 3     you and the Registry of the Tribunal.  You've already raised with the

 4     Trial Chamber a fair trial issue, and when there are fair trial issues

 5     then it is for the Trial Chamber to intervene.

 6             Now, we refuse to intervene because we took the view that the

 7     Registry had acted properly in dealing with it.  I'm -- I hear what you

 8     say about the legal team, but I also know from the terms of the documents

 9     that are passing through my hands that you have a large number of people

10     assisting.  I understand that the vast majority of these may be acting

11     pro bono, that's a matter for you and them.  But the organisation of your

12     team is not a matter that I can attend to here or have any interest in

13     dealing with, or any right -- by interest, I mean any right to deal with.

14     It's a matter for the Registrar unless an issue arises that affects the

15     fairness of the trial.

16             So I can only encourage you to take urgent steps that you see

17     outstanding in that regard express my dismay that it's taking you so long

18     to deal with it.  You know what the facilities are and what your

19     entitlement is.  It's a management exercise on your part to get them

20     organised into suitable sections to deal with the various parts of your

21     case that you feel they can assist you with.

22             The Trial Chamber is entirety satisfied that for a

23     self-represented accused you have adequate support, and we're also

24     equally satisfied that if you were to apply for full legal aid for the

25     conduct of the trial, that you would be much better supported than you

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 1     are to deal with the complex issues that will face you in the trial, and

 2     you would also be able to play a part in the conduct of your own case as

 3     long as that met with the approval of the legal advisors that would then

 4     instruct it.

 5             So all of that convinces the Trial Chamber that there are no

 6     issues affecting the fairness of your trial that currently arise in

 7     relation to how your team is composed.

 8             Now, I've had a look at the dates that could be available for the

 9     next Status Conference.  The position is not at all clear because the

10     Tribunal is working at full capacity, and courtroom space is at a

11     premium.  I will need to consider further whether adjustments can be made

12     and the timetable affecting other cases to enable us to sit again fairly

13     soon, and a Scheduling Order giving a date will be issued hopefully by

14     Monday.

15             Meanwhile, this Status Conference is adjourned.

16                           --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at

17                           3.21 p.m.