100415IT

Page 1186

1 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, don't worry about a

2 misinterpretation of what I said. We won't assume that you agree with a

3 factual matter that's been attested to by a witness unless you

4 specifically say that you agree with it.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

6 WITNESS: SULEJMAN CRNCALO [Resumed]

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Crncalo.

10 A. Good morning.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness's microphones please be

12 switched on. Thank you.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I'd like us to go through the first part of your statement. You

15 were born in Radacici; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that's a village that takes its name from a part of the

18 population living there; right?

19 A. Well, I can't say exactly.

20 Q. But are there people with the surname Radacic living in Radacici?

21 A. Well, there's the surname Radaca.

22 Q. But, I think there are people with the surname Radacic too?

23 A. Well, the village is called Radacici, but there's not a surname

24 Radacic.

25 Q. But is there a family called Radaca?

Page 1187

1 A. Yes, there is.

2 Q. You worked at Korana at the military post 883 which means that

3 that was military industry; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was the -- that the factory producing special vehicles?

6 A. It was the Radacici department and branch of the repair and

7 maintenance factory.

8 Q. And that's where the maintenance was carried out for the

9 Yugoslav People's Army vehicles, and so on?

10 A. Yes, motor vehicles were maintained there and repaired.

11 Q. You mean military vehicles?

12 A. Civilian vehicles first and foremost.

13 Q. But the factory was a military one, and there was this military

14 post number?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When did you start working in that factory?

17 A. In 1965, I worked for four months.

18 Q. And then you transferred to Zrak; right?

19 A. Then I did my Yugoslav People's Army service, and once I

20 completed my service in the JNA, I started working for the Zrak company.

21 Q. And is Zrak, in part, a military factory too?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That means that you had very good military characteristics?

24 A. That's up to others to say. I can't say that.

25 Q. But you didn't have any problems in transferring from one army

Page 1188

1 factory to another?

2 A. Well, when I arrived there wasn't a work post open when I had

3 completed my military service and was looking for a job, but when I

4 looked for a job in Zrak, I was able to find one.

5 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move on to the part of your statement

6 which refers to the events of 1990 and 1991. So I'll just briefly

7 summarise and repeat. You weren't a member of the SDA but you shared

8 their ideals and ideology and you probably voted for them, although you

9 didn't have to say?

10 A. I was a sympathiser, but I was not a member.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly be asked to slow down

13 and pause between question and answer. Thank you.

14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the interpreters are asking you to put

15 a pause between the question and the answer. Could you bear that in

16 mind, Mr. Crncalo, as well.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes, they're quite

18 right, the interpreters are right.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. In paragraph 10 of your statement, you say that it was sometime

21 in 1991 in the Muslim community that you started to notice some changes

22 in the Serb population's attitude, and then you went on to say that you

23 had in mind open speeches and references to Kosovo, Serbian historical

24 events, and so on. And that -- well, let's deal with Kosovo first, this

25 reference to Kosovo. Is that the first time that the Serbs talked about

Page 1189

1 Kosovo?

2 A. First of all, in Pale there isn't a separate Muslim community.

3 The Pale municipality, the urban part of it, encompassed all citizens

4 living in Pale and the Pale municipality. Pale was a whole, one entity.

5 And in 1991, and especially in 1992, when the events took place which we

6 all know about, there were frequent demonstrations. Columns were being

7 formed made up of the Serb male population and bottles of brandy were

8 held and the slogan that they shouted was, Kosovo, Kosovo, we're not

9 going to let Kosovo go. There were flags too, and so on.

10 Q. Now, in another paragraph, it says the relationship towards your

11 Muslim community --

12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

13 Mr. Crncalo, given that Mr. Karadzic is putting questions about

14 the paragraphs of your statement, would you like to have your statement

15 in front of you? My understanding is that there is a translation of

16 this. I checked it --

17 MR. GAYNOR: There is a translation of this particular statement,

18 yes.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I would like to have the

20 statements in Serbian as well.

21 JUDGE KWON: It's in e-court, Exhibit 733.

22 Please continue.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Now, the Muslim community, I picked up from paragraph 10 in your

25 statement, you used the term. Now, my question was: Was that the first

Page 1190

1 time that you saw Serbs talking about Kosovo in 1991, or in previous

2 decades and years were they taken up with the subject of Kosovo and were

3 there demonstrations about Kosovo?

4 A. In the Pale municipality, this never happened before 1990 -- 1991

5 and 1992.

6 Q. Do you happen to remember that the crisis in Kosovo took place,

7 first of all in 1968, that was the first crisis, and the next wave was in

8 1971, and the third was in 1981, one year after Tito's death. Then from

9 that time onwards, there was a permanent crisis involving Kosovo and over

10 Kosovo, and every Yugoslav leadership and Presidency after Tito's death

11 dealt with the topic of Kosovo. And this was particularly marked in 1988

12 and 1989. And that from the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1989, for

13 instance, the Serbs went to attend a rally in Kosovo and there were a

14 million and a half Serbs there. Do you remember that?

15 A. Mr. Karadzic, you're going back to history and asking me

16 questions about history, but I'll give you this answer. As to the events

17 about Kosovo, yes, I did learn about them from the electronic media and

18 from the press. That's the first point.

19 Secondly, I knew that policemen were designated to go to Kosovo,

20 probably to keep law and order there. And now as to other activities

21 that the population, the civilians, were shouting slogans, Kosovo, and

22 defending Kosovo in Pale municipality, that did not happen until the

23 war -- until these preparations for war started.

24 Q. Thank you. I won't belabour the point, but I'd like to remind

25 you and to hear your opinion to this: The Kosovo crisis was the nucleus

Page 1191

1 of --

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, let's leave Kosovo issue and come to

3 our issues.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Now, you go on to say that this was unsettling, the Serb

7 nationalist flags had an unsettling effect on you. Could you describe

8 that?

9 A. Well, the flag has the four-S sign on it, and as soon as the flag

10 was raised in Pale, things started going downhill. Inter-human relations

11 were no longer the same. That's my answer.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, what you describe is a religious flag, in fact,

13 which has a cross and the three C scrolls, otherwise it's a tricolour,

14 red, white, blue?

15 A. Well, it was this flag that was carried at the time that I'm

16 talking about. The tricolour was to appear later on, I'm referring to

17 the other type of flag.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you remember the killings on the 1st of March,

19 1992, in the wedding party in Sarajevo?

20 A. Mr. Karadzic, I lived in Pale. I did not live in Sarajevo, so I

21 wasn't present. Yes, I did hear about it. I heard that something had

22 happened in Sarajevo, that a killing had taken place, but I was not in

23 Sarajevo myself.

24 Q. But you weren't in Kosovo either, but it was unsettling you said

25 for you?

Page 1192

1 A. Yes, it was unsettling.

2 Q. Did you hear what the killer of the people in the wedding party,

3 Gardovic said on television, why he killed them in Bascarsija?

4 A. No, I did not hear that.

5 Q. I'll remind you. Perhaps this will jog your memory. He said the

6 wedding party was carrying a Serb flag. Now, I want to ask you whether

7 you remember that the Serbian religious flag was always carried in -- at

8 weddings, and even during the time of the Turks, from the beginning of

9 the nineteenth century when the flag was espoused, and it was different

10 from the Russian flag, and that Serb wedding parties were allowed to

11 display their religious flags in all systems, including the communist

12 system. Do you remember that?

13 A. I have told this -- I have given a statement to this august

14 Trial Chamber. I told them what I lived through, what I experienced.

15 And now you're asking me, most probably it has some value for you, but

16 you're asking me about quite different matters.

17 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, we have a copy in the witness's

18 language of the amalgamated statement. Perhaps the usher could provide

19 the witness with it.

20 JUDGE KWON: Could it be passed on to the witness.

21 Mr. Crncalo, I think I can understand how you feel, but if you

22 can answer yes and no, you can simply do so.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

24 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1193

1 Q. Do you accept that it was also disturbing to the Serbs to see

2 that their flag bothers someone so much that they are prepared to kill?

3 A. Possibly there are persons like that too.

4 Q. As for the ethnic composition in Pale, I have information that

5 there were 27 per cent Muslims or around 4 and a half thousand, almost

6 5.000, and the rest were Serbs; is that correct?

7 A. My information from the time of the elections was the Muslims

8 were 33 per cent. I didn't check it, I just read this, around 5.000.

9 Now, which of the two is correct, it's up to someone else to judge.

10 Q. We have the election results and we can look them up. Is it the

11 case that the Serbian Democratic Party governed on its own or shared

12 power with the Muslim party and would have shared it with the Croatian

13 Democratic Union if there had been any Croats?

14 A. They divided power as it suited them.

15 Q. Was it part of the agreement that applied to the entire republic

16 regarding proportional representation in the National Assembly?

17 A. I'm not a politician, although I had once been nominated to be a

18 delegate and didn't accept, and I cannot answer this question. I cannot

19 say either yes or no. It's up to the people who actually occupied these

20 positions.

21 Q. But, Mr. Crncalo, if you say that the Serbian Democratic Party

22 divided the power as it suited it, it sounds like diktat. I want to

23 remind you that at the level of the republic through the government,

24 Assembly, the Presidency, down to the last municipality, one single

25 principle was accomplished; namely, that all the three nations, through

Page 1194

1 their political parties, participate in government in proportion to their

2 strength and in keeping with an agreement reached at the level of the

3 republic. That's how it worked. If there were 27 per cent Muslims in

4 Pale and 27 per cent Serbs in Stari Grad, that's what -- that's the kind

5 of proportionality that was applied.

6 A. If what you say is true, then why were our telephones cut off?

7 Q. We'll come to that issue later. You confirmed yesterday - and

8 it's in the statement as well - that the deputy president of the

9 municipality was Hamed Palo?

10 A. I didn't mention him at all yesterday. Hamed Palo was, indeed,

11 appointed in 1992. Now, how long he stayed in that position, I don't

12 know.

13 Q. Were there any Muslims in the Executive Board of the

14 municipality?

15 A. I just told you a moment ago that the composition of the

16 government in the municipality Pale was not nearly my main interest with

17 all that was going on, so I can neither confirm nor deny.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Crncalo, but I have to clarify this because with

19 your side comments you suggest that this was not so, and I want to remind

20 you that in every municipality, if it was composed of all the three

21 ethnic groups, they shared power depending on which ethnic community was

22 in the majority. And the gentlemen sitting in this courtroom do not know

23 about our relationships, and I cannot leave this impression that you

24 create by your swipes to stand, namely, that we took power and divided it

25 as we wanted.

Page 1195

1 A. I'm -- I am answering as best I know. I have made an oath, not

2 only to this Court but also before God. I want to speak the truth.

3 Q. Thank you. You say in paragraph 13 -- you speak about

4 St. Djordje's day, the Serbian holiday, the 6th of May. You say Seselj

5 came and stationed Chetniks on a mountain near Novak's cave. Is

6 St. Djordje's day only a Serbian holiday, isn't it also a Roma holiday?

7 A. I don't know of any Roma living in Pale, I really don't. But I

8 know that many families celebrated St. Djordje's day.

9 Q. You heard certainly about the St. Djordje's wake. It was taken

10 over from an earlier tradition. Was it just St. Djordje's wake that

11 Seselj came for?

12 A. What you're asking me about is St. Djordje's day a Serbian

13 holiday. It's not the 1st May wake. It was celebrated in the Sarajevo

14 municipality of Ilidza. St. Djordje's day is something else.

15 Q. Thank you. We'll move forward because we can't agree about this.

16 Do you know that Seselj has some Muslim members in his own party, in the

17 top leadership, descendents of late Mehmet Spaho?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Do you know that a Chetnik leader during the Second World War,

20 which means a Royalist, who was not condemned like Tito by the Western

21 allies, had in his headquarters a Muslim?

22 A. I wasn't even born then and neither were you, and you're asking

23 me about Draza Mihajlovic and his ADC.

24 Q. Mr. Crncalo, your statement is full of resentment towards

25 Chetniks. I don't know whether you're talking about Chetniks proper or

Page 1196

1 you mean that every Serb is a Chetnik. But Chetniks were actually

2 recognised by some Western countries as anti-fascists, Draza Mihajlovic

3 was decorated by the American government. He had a very prominent Muslim

4 assistant in his headquarters, just like Seselj has Mr. Spaho in his own

5 party?

6 A. What would you call people in Pale who were carrying the flag

7 with the skull and bones under a fur hat? Isn't that a Chetnik emblem?

8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, let's move on to real issues.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You said you found the behaviour of Serbs in 1991 at Christmas

11 disturbing, that there was more shooting than usual?

12 A. Yes, there was shooting. We couldn't even sleep there was so

13 much shooting, especially from dusk until late at night. It almost

14 didn't stop all night.

15 Q. And you blamed it on the new government and Malko Koroman?

16 A. Well, who else?

17 Q. Mr. Crncalo, do you know when the new government actually took

18 over after the elections? Do you agree that the new government was

19 formed in the way that I will describe now? The Assembly of Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina was set up on the 20th December, and the government of Bosnia

21 and Herzegovina was formed on the 30th of January, three weeks after the

22 Serbian Christmas.

23 A. The political parties took power actually before all these

24 Assemblies were formed.

25 Q. It takes a couple of months after the elections to form a

Page 1197

1 government. Do you know when the Serb Christmas is?

2 A. 7 January.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have a map of Pale and the

4 environs?

5 P19122, it's a Prosecution exhibit. P9122 or 112.

6 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, the correct number is 19112. This is

7 a map which the accused requested that we provide them with, and we

8 co-operated.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Crncalo, do you see this map of Pale municipality?

11 A. I see.

12 Q. Is it true that in Brdarici, Praca, Kamenica, and Renovica, the

13 population is majority Muslim?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Probably in the north, in Bogovici as well. But do you remember

16 who controlled Pale municipality during the war? Were Serbs in control

17 of Renovica?

18 A. You know that much better than I do. They controlled Renovica.

19 Serb troops moved in on that part of the municipality.

20 Q. Let's not debate this. Please answer the question: Did Serbs

21 control the Renovica?

22 A. Well, you asked me certain things. After the attack on Renovica,

23 they didn't control it anymore.

24 Q. Did we control Praca?

25 A. You did.

Page 1198

1 Q. Is now Praca the seat of the Muslim municipality of Pale?

2 A. Yes, after the Dayton Accords when the territory was divided up.

3 Q. So according to Dayton maps, Praca became part of the Federation

4 and became seat of the Muslim municipality of Pale?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you remember that before the war we proposed that all

7 municipalities in which there are compact segments of one or another

8 community be transformed into one or more -- into two or more

9 municipalities?

10 A. I did not follow your political wrangling and meetings, but I did

11 see what happened on the ground. Now, what you were trying to negotiate

12 with the top leaders of other parties I was unable to follow.

13 Q. All right. Then we'll leave political topics aside. Let's go

14 back to your statement where you talk about the way of life in Pale and

15 how it all worked. You say in your statement that there were many

16 refugees in Pale; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, as a general matter, could I request

19 the accused just to provide a paragraph number of the statement, and

20 while I'm on my feet, when he refers to the accused's [sic] evidence

21 which he gave yesterday, if he could provide a transcript page in

22 accordance with the order for the conduct of trial, which Your Honours

23 have handed down.

24 JUDGE KWON: I beg your pardon, you referred to the accused's

25 evidence he gave yesterday.

Page 1199

1 JUDGE MORRISON: I think he meant to say the witness's evidence.

2 MR. GAYNOR: I beg your pardon. That's correct. Thank you.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Try to indicate the paragraph or page number's

4 when you use them, when you put them to the witness. Let's proceed.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I would like staying with the map to ask you whether you know

7 where Cemerno is?

8 A. I have heard it, but I don't know where it is exactly.

9 Q. It's towards Nisici "visoravan," plateau.

10 A. Well, I don't think. I can't confirm that.

11 Q. Do you know where Vukasinovici are?

12 A. I know people with surname Vukasinovic.

13 Q. No, I mean the Vukasinovici village.

14 A. No, I don't know.

15 Q. Now let's move on to paragraph 23 of your statement where you say

16 that on the 3rd of March, 1992, that you were arrested. Were you

17 arrested or detained?

18 A. Well, you can explain it any way you like, but I was seized by

19 three reserve policemen and taken to the police station, and I was

20 handcuffed. Now, you can comment about that any way you like.

21 Q. I didn't find those handcuffs in your statement.

22 A. Well, they were on my hands.

23 Q. You were questioned there and then in the morning, finally,

24 Mr. Malko Koroman took you and your neighbour back; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1200

1 Q. Do you know, Mr. Crncalo, what happened to Serbs in Sarajevo who

2 were found in possession of weapons, escorted by the police chief, as you

3 were, or they disappeared never to be seen again?

4 A. Well, at the police station in Pale, they have my human

5 qualities. They know about me, what kind of person I was. So most

6 probably they returned me because of that. They knew them -- the man I

7 was.

8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, just for clarity, I'd like to remind

9 you that Mr. Crncalo, in his statement, para 23, in the middle of it, he

10 clearly stated that:

11 "At the police station, I was handcuffed and interrogated by

12 Hrusum."

13 Please go on.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. That's

15 why I need the statements in Serbian, at least the statements if I can't

16 have the transcripts in Serbian.

17 JUDGE KWON: You have it in front of you on the monitor.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're quite right, but I didn't

19 have it earlier on for me to be able to mark that passage.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Crncalo, on the 3rd of March, 1992, did Yugoslavia exist and

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina exist, whose foreign minister was Alija Delimustafic?

23 A. That Yugoslavia, the one that existed at one time --

24 Q. [No interpretation]

25 A. I have to answer. Let me answer. And the parties took over

Page 1201

1 the -- once the parties took over power and authority, that Yugoslavia no

2 longer existed.

3 Q. All right.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now can we have Defence exhibit

5 1D801, please. 1D801, please.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. We'll go through a number of documents quickly, and they'll show

8 us what the situation was like at Pale. We have a news agency news item,

9 saying that:

10 "The wave of refugees, on the entire territory of the former

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, was growing from one day to the next."

12 And here we see that the number of refugees at Sokolac and Pale

13 cannot be determined with any precision. Now, do you remember that there

14 were as many refugees as there were local inhabitants and sometimes more

15 refugees than local inhabitants?

16 A. I didn't have any statistics of the influx of people coming into

17 Pale, but, yes, there were lots of people arriving.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have 1D816 now, please --

19 just a moment.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. The previous document was dated the 10th of April, 1992.

22 So four days after the war began, Pale was full of refugees.

23 1D816 is the next document I'd like us to look at. You have the Serbian

24 version in front of you, Mr. Crncalo, and the date there is the 19th of

25 May. And this is what it says:

Page 1202

1 "A large number of refugees from Sarajevo are arriving in Pale

2 today. At the present moment, 2.500 families registered with the Pale

3 Crisis Staff. The Crisis Staff at Pale is moving them into surrounding

4 cottages, but, as they are all full, they will be moving in with families

5 from Pale and some are heading towards Belgrade.

6 "Currently the Crisis Staff for the accommodation of refugees,

7 along with the representatives of the Red Cross have begun distributing

8 food, although there's less and less food here at present."

9 Now, was Pale a sort of weekend resort for the people of Sarajevo

10 before the war?

11 A. Well, I don't really know what kind of neighbourhood and

12 settlement it was. All I know is that the refugees poured into Pale.

13 Q. Mr. Crncalo, do you mean to say that you don't know that Pale was

14 a holiday resort with weekend cottages for the population of Sarajevo?

15 A. Well, yes, before the war; but what happened after the war I

16 can't say or during the war.

17 Q. I'm saying that before the war there were a lot of weekend

18 cottages there and that the Crisis Staff filled up these cottages,

19 accommodated the refugees in them, and then sent them to move in with

20 families. Did you take any refugees in, your family?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Why? Why not?

23 A. Well, I can answer that. Nobody offered -- made the offer, and

24 even if they did ask me to do so, I would have had to take them in, but

25 nobody asked me.

Page 1203

1 Q. Well, nobody had to. It was on a voluntary basis.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we look at 1D817 next, please.

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, please bear that in mind that we set

4 up a rule regarding the exhibit to deal with it every time when you've

5 used it. So if you are going to tender those things, you should raise

6 it, and after hearing from the Prosecution, we will rule on it, we will

7 make a decision. So you are minded to tender those 8 -- those two

8 documents, a news clipping from a Serbian news agency, 801 and 816?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I'm

10 getting used to it, but my skills haven't been honed out yet. Yes, I

11 would like to tender these Defence documents into evidence, 1D801 and

12 1D816. And now I would like to call up 1D817.

13 MR. GAYNOR: For the record, Mr. President, there's no objection

14 to their admission.

15 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We will admit them.

16 What's the number of them?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 1D801 will be Exhibit

18 D8; and 65 ter number 1D816 will be Exhibit D9.

19 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

20 Please go on.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Crncalo, you have before you a document dated the

23 20th of May. It refers to refugees in Pale, and the last paragraph says:

24 "The Red Cross has also appealed to the local population to take

25 in some of the people who are temporarily residing in the hall of the

Page 1204

1 municipality, if they are able to do so," which means there are no longer

2 any cottages and weekend homes free.

3 Do you agree that that was what the situation was?

4 A. Most probably, yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, another paragraph says that some people were not

6 able to be accommodated at Pale and they went on to Belgrade, Cacak, and

7 Serbia. Do you see that?

8 A. Well, I see that, but I don't know that they went on towards

9 Cacak and Belgrade.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have 1D -- or before I ask

11 for the next document, I'd like to tender this document into evidence,

12 1D817.

13 MR. GAYNOR: No objection, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE KWON: That will be number 10.

15 Please go on.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I'd like to call up 1D807.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You have it before you, Mr. Crncalo. It's a news agency item

19 dated the 17th of April, and already on the 17th of April, there were

20 still 2.000 families, refugee families, at Pale. And we received this

21 from the centre -- social services centre of the municipality. And it

22 says that from this same centre news has arrived that today the first

23 shipment of food has started for those registered with the staff for

24 accommodating the refugees, family packages and food for children are

25 being distributed, which was received, in part, from the

Page 1205

1 International Red Cross and UNICEF of the Serbian municipality of Pale,

2 and more packages are expected from UNICEF and the Serbian humanitarian

3 society called Dobrotvor.

4 A. Your Honours, how can I answer questions like that when I have

5 absolutely no knowledge of anything like that.

6 JUDGE KWON: That's fine.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. But do you accept that there was this problem of feeding such a

9 large number of refugees?

10 A. Well, I don't know what the Pale municipality had in terms of

11 resources. All I saw was convoys coming in, lots of convoys, full of

12 corn and APCs in between, and they were moving towards the silos where

13 the corn was being stored. I do know that, but as to the other things

14 you're asking me about, I have absolutely no idea about any of that.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up -- or before I

16 do, I'd like to tender this document into evidence, 1D807.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor.

18 MR. GAYNOR: There's no objection, Mr. President.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have document ...

21 JUDGE KWON: That's admitted and that's D11.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You mentioned the convoys. When did you see them, Mr. Crncalo?

24 A. In the autumn of 1991.

25 Q. Before the outbreak of the war some food reserves were collected;

Page 1206

1 right? Is that what that means?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was that from Serbia?

4 A. Well, I don't know where it came from, where the trailer trucks

5 came from and where the APCs that were mixed up amongst them. I don't

6 know where they came from.

7 Q. All right.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now may we have 1D824 next, please.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. This is a document with the date the 21st of May, and it's a news

11 agency item which says that there are already 15.000 registered refugees

12 in Pale, and it goes on to say that it is impossible to house all of

13 them. But would you focus on the last paragraph where it says:

14 "Food reserves are being -- are nearly exhausted, what is

15 particularly needed is flour, oil, sugar, and children's food."

16 Do you see that sentence?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Well, do you remember that that's how it was?

19 A. It doesn't see -- it doesn't say, "decija hrana," but, "djecija

20 hrana," meaning children's food, with different accents.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours this is a linguistic

22 matter. You can forget about that, whether it's the Ekavian or Jekavian.

23 But, anyway, I'd like to tender this document, 1D824.

24 MR. GAYNOR: No objection.

25 JUDGE KWON: From your position, I take it all the "SRNA" agency

Page 1207

1 news clippings are not objected to?

2 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted as D12. Let's go on.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 May I have Defence document 1D805 next, please.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. It's rather a poor copy, more legible in English, but I'll read

8 it out in Serbian for us, the two of us, Mr. Crncalo, for you in Bosnian

9 and me in Serbian:

10 "Life in the region of the municipality of Pale is slowly

11 returning to normal, after it has been subjected to the most intense war

12 attacks over the past several days. The Crisis Staff of the Municipal

13 Assembly of Pale has issued a decision to allow elementary schools in

14 Pale, Mokrom, and Praca to reopen starting tomorrow."

15 Is Praca a Muslim village in Pale municipality?

16 A. Praca isn't a village. It's a local commune including

17 surrounding villages. It wasn't a purely Muslim or a purely Serbian

18 village. There were more Serbs in Praca than Muslims in actual fact.

19 Q. I'm going to put something to you now and you can tell me whether

20 you agree or not, that in addition to the reopening of the schools,

21 already on the 12th of April, that is to say eight days, a week after the

22 war attacks broke out and "opstina" Pale was under fire as well, the

23 school was open in Praca and Mokrom, which is a purely Serb village, and

24 that a public transport route towards Praca was also reopened. It

25 doesn't say that here but we can find that piece of information. Do you

Page 1208

1 gray with that?

2 A. I don't know about the reopening of the school, but I do know

3 about the reopening of the bus route.

4 Q. Do you remember who attacked Pale municipality?

5 A. What I know is that when from Pale municipality the Serb units

6 attacked the local commune of Renovica and Zepa, as far as I know too,

7 they attacked that. But who attacked Pale municipality, where I moved

8 around, I didn't see that the Pale municipality was attacked at all.

9 Q. Thank you. What I wanted to ask you was: Who were the warring

10 sides? Who could have attacked Pale, because there weren't any Croats

11 there which means that it was the Muslim forces which attacked Pale?

12 A. The Pale municipality borders on the Stari Grad-Sarajevo

13 municipality. So how many units from the Stari Grad, old town,

14 municipality took control of Pale municipality, you know that better than

15 me.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies. I

17 would like to tender this exhibit too, 1D805. Since we have your

18 agreement in principle, can we move on?

19 JUDGE KWON: That's admitted as D13 and move on, please.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I would like to call up 1D813.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Crncalo, were there any weapons among the Muslim population

23 in Praca and in Pale?

24 A. Yes, but these weapons were all registered at the police station

25 in Pale. It was all hunting and sports weapons. There was no other

Page 1209

1 arms.

2 Q. There were no automatic weapons that were smuggled in?

3 A. No. And every one of us in Pale who had a hunting weapon had to

4 turn it in to the police station because Malko Koroman, chief of police,

5 demanded that all the weapons owned by Croats and Muslims be surrendered.

6 Q. Did you hear of Imam Fazlo Gljiva?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Have you heard of Senaid Memic from Hrasnica, who brought a large

9 number of weapons for Muslims in Pale?

10 A. No, I never heard of that, and he couldn't have passed through

11 all the check-points to bring in any weapons.

12 Q. Did Malko Koroman make an announcement on the radio, or

13 otherwise, that weapons should be brought into the police station?

14 A. He said it on TV.

15 Q. Was Pale a Sarajevo suburb municipality?

16 A. Yes, it was a suburb.

17 Q. But it was part of Sarajevo municipality; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, could I draw your attention to the document on the screen

20 dated 28th April. It says:

21 "As a result of a successful operation by the employees of the

22 public security station in Pale, most Muslims from Praca handed over

23 their weapons today. Automatic rifles, which had been distributed with

24 the mediation of the Praca Imam Fazlo Gljiva were handed over to the

25 authorities. These weapons had arrived in Praca through channels used by

Page 1210

1 Senaid Memic from Hrasnica. This well-known Muslim extremist armed

2 members of the Muslim community throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, and from

3 that shipment, 20 automatic rifles arrived in the Praca region."

4 Can you see this document?

5 A. Yes, but these weapons were legally distributed at the police

6 station of Pale to reserve policemen, and those who couldn't muster the

7 courage to bring this rifle and uniform to the police station were

8 returned otherwise. I personally took two rifles from two reserve

9 policemen and turned them over at the police station.

10 Q. You're talking about weapons that people are issued with when

11 they go on an exercise, be they reserve policemen or reserve soldiers,

12 they get gas masks and uniforms and weapons, and they take it all home.

13 A. That's the way it used to work.

14 Q. That was in keeping with the Tito's doctrine of armed population?

15 A. Yes. I don't know how long they kept -- they got to keep the

16 uniforms and the equipment, I mean registered reserve policemen. These

17 were not distributed to other regular people. And when this announcement

18 came, some of these reserve policemen did not have the courage to bring

19 it in themselves to the police station.

20 Q. I agree about the reserve policemen, but were you ever called up

21 to do an exercise as a military reservist?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At that time would you also take the uniform and sometimes the

24 weapon home?

25 A. First of all, I could not drive an armoured vehicle back to my

Page 1211

1 home.

2 Q. Yes, but infantrymen could take weapons home, couldn't they?

3 A. Yes.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this document, 1D813,

5 and may I now call up 1D855, a Defence document.

6 JUDGE KWON: 813 would be admitted as D14.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. We see that these weapons concerned were not army issue or

9 government issue. They were smuggled weapons, contraband weapons. This

10 talks about the conduct of Senaid Memic from Hrasnica. That same person

11 was mentioned in the news item of the agency "SRNA." And here is his

12 statement, or rather, the Official Note on his arrest. I quote:

13 "In the period between September 1991 to my arrest, I had for the

14 purposes of the SDA in Bosnia and Sandzak purchased, imported, and

15 distributed around 5.000 automatic rifles of various types and around

16 1.400.000 rounds."

17 Where is Sandzak? You know but the gentlemen in the courtroom

18 don't.

19 A. It's in Montenegro.

20 Q. But it's bordering on Bosnia?

21 A. Yes, but it's not part of Bosnia. You asked where it was.

22 Q. We don't have it on the transcript that part of Sandzak is in

23 Montenegro and part of Sandzak is in Serbia. The witness actually said

24 it.

25 Can you confirm?

Page 1212

1 A. Sandzak is partly in Montenegro and partly in Serbia.

2 Q. Let's continue with the text:

3 "I did all this in co-operation with SDA activists on the ground,

4 and following orders by certain leaders of the SDA party."

5 "On the ground," do you see that in the text?

6 A. Even if I see it, it doesn't matter. But look who distributed

7 all these weapons to the Serbian people without any fee.

8 Q. Was this in exchange for a fee?

9 A. I wouldn't know because I didn't buy anything.

10 Q. Let's go on:

11 "My closest ties in this job were with Cengic, who normally acts

12 as the technical secretary of the SDA. All these dealings of mine were

13 known to all leaders of the political top echelon of the SDA party,

14 beginning with Alija Izetbegovic, through Omer Behmen,

15 Rusmir Mahmutcehajic, and others, as well as certain officials of the MUP

16 of the SR Bosnia-Herzegovina; the MUP Minister, Alija Delimustafic;

17 Deputy Staff Minister, Mirsad Srebrenkovic; Jusuf Pusina;

18 Bakir Alispahic; Kemal Sabovic; Munir Alibabic, as well as some other

19 heads of the SJB throughout Bosnia ..."

20 Do you, as a sympathiser of the SDA party, and a man who is

21 familiar with the SDA on the ground, the leadership with whom this man

22 co-operated in distributing weapons, were you aware of this?

23 A. Sir, I am a man of integrity. You are asking me about people who

24 are involved in arms smuggling, or smuggling as such. I was never

25 involved in anything like and never would.

Page 1213

1 Q. Mr. Crncalo, you said in paragraph 12 that you know the

2 leadership of the SDA. These are not smugglers. This is the president

3 of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This is about the Ministry of

4 the Interior. These are the Muslim senior officers in the police force

5 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bakir Alispahic, who is an Iranian spy planted

6 by the Iranian intelligence service. This concerns the Muslim leadership

7 taking advantage of common resources to arm one ethnic community. Maybe

8 you didn't know the top leadership at republic level?

9 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Karadzic, you are making an extensive

10 comment rather than asking a question. The witness can't deal with that

11 and it's not evidence.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But he can confirm that these were

13 prominent and important people in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will answer now. First of all,

15 you mentioned a smuggler, and then you mentioned some other people, and

16 then you asked me whether I know the smuggler and these other people.

17 The politicians, I saw on television, just as I saw your own associates

18 on TV. As for this smuggler, I've never heard of him.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I'm asking you about the people on local level whom you knew.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

22 document. This is an Official Note -- rather, a statement given to the

23 police, 1D855.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

25 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, we object to the admission of that

Page 1214

1 document. The principal reason is that as your offers -- as Your Honours

2 ruled yesterday, the accused will have ample opportunity to use the

3 92 bis and 92 ter regime during his Defence case to submit witness

4 statements. And this is essentially witness statement. Now, if the

5 accused chooses to submit this particular witness statement, I'd like to

6 reserve the right to make further submissions at that time as to the

7 reliability of this statement, the circumstances in which it was taken,

8 the authorities which took this statement, and the question as to whether

9 it is a true reflection of this person's evidence.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say one thing. This

12 document is corroborated by a news agency report that the agency received

13 at the police. These documents go hand in hand. That other document

14 mentions the "hodza," or in other words Imam, and also Senaid Memic who

15 distributed arms for the needs of the highest Muslim leadership. This

16 was an official questioning by an official authority and it's accompanied

17 by a witness statement.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, as we made it clear yesterday, we will

19 not admit a statement of third parties unless it satisfies the

20 requirements of the Rules, Rule 92 ter or Rule 92 bis. Otherwise, on a

21 separate -- the Prosecution may well be able to introduce hundreds,

22 thousands of statements which corroborate with the Prosecution evidence.

23 We will strictly apply this rule and most of the content was put to the

24 witness, although he denied it or had no knowledge about it. So based

25 upon that principle, we will not admit this. Please go on.

Page 1215

1 That does not exclude you putting the content of the statement to

2 the witness.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Maybe I forgot to say

4 that there is also a handwritten statement of this suspect, not only the

5 typewritten version.

6 I'd now like to call 1D818. We now see the document.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. 22 May 1992:

9 "Drive to disarm Muslim paramilitaries in Praca and Renovica."

10 Let me remind you that you said that those people, who wanted to,

11 brought their weapons voluntarily to the police station, and the police

12 did not need to go to their houses to collect them. Let's see what the

13 document says. So those who wanted to, brought their weapons in. Were

14 there people who didn't want to?

15 A. I don't know. I lived in Pale; they lived in Praca. I cannot

16 answer that.

17 Q. But you said today, and I'll look for a reference in the

18 transcript, that Pale was one whole. That's page 6 of today's

19 transcript, that Pale was one whole, one municipality.

20 A. May I now answer? Pale was one whole, in terms of territory, but

21 I once tried to go to Radacici where I was born. I came up to the Famos

22 factory, when I was intercepted by two soldiers wearing reserve army

23 uniforms. One of them trained his rifle at me, almost touching my

24 stomach, while the other one asked me to produce my ID. I was afraid to

25 reach into my pocket, fearing that the other one might think I'm trying

Page 1216

1 to remove the gun. And then they asked me, Where are you going? I said

2 I wanted to sow potatoes. And they, Open the back of the car. There

3 were tools, agricultural tools. There was a sack of potatoes. There

4 was --

5 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Did you mention this in a previous

6 statement?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That was in the spring?

9 A. 1992, yes.

10 Q. Was the police operation of disarming underway at the time?

11 A. What is the date in the document?

12 Q. 22nd May.

13 A. This happened earlier, and that's why I said that Pale was one

14 single whole, but when that happened, I realised that things were no

15 longer as they used to be. You can't move around in Pale just like that.

16 Q. Thank you. But let's focus on this document now. There was this

17 drive to disarm the population, and this was after the voluntary --

18 partial voluntary surrendering of weapons. Now, reading this news agency

19 report it says:

20 "Today the members of the active reserve unit of the public

21 security station in Pale engaged in an effort to disarm the Muslim

22 paramilitary forces in Praca and Renovica neighbourhoods with a majority

23 Muslim population."

24 Do you remember that?

25 A. I do remember Malko's statement on television, and you could see

Page 1217

1 tears in his eyes. This is what he said, his very words, Unfortunately

2 war has come to Pale municipality. Those were his very words and I

3 remember them very well.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, did he say that with respect to the killing of

5 Goran Kablar and Rade Tosic, his policeman, and the wounding of five MUP

6 members in Renovica in this action to gather up weapons?

7 A. Well, yes, but not -- that wasn't collecting up weapons. It was

8 an action of some kind in the territory similar to what had happened in

9 Zepa.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document,

12 1D818, into evidence as well, please.

13 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted as D15, and we will have a

14 break.

15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me, before you break, one quick

16 matter.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

18 MR. TIEGER: The Court will be aware that witness scheduling is a

19 delicate balance between the convenience -- burden on the witnesses and

20 the need to move the process forward. In that regard, if the Court is

21 minded to provide some estimate of the cross-examination time for the

22 fourth witness, it will assist, or the Court may be content for the

23 Prosecution to make its scheduling judgements based on events to date.

24 But I wanted to bring that issue to the attention of the Court and ask

25 for whatever assistance the Court was minded to provide.

Page 1218

1 JUDGE KWON: The immediate question is whether to release the

2 next witness?

3 MR. TIEGER: It's not the next witness at this moment. It's for

4 scheduling down the line, anticipating how many witnesses and which

5 witnesses will be heard before this Court next week; and, therefore,

6 which additional witnesses need -- may need to be present or whose

7 arrival may be deferred until the week following, for example. So it's

8 the knock-on effect for the upcoming witnesses of the length of

9 cross-examination for the fourth witness.

10 JUDGE KWON: You tendered your anticipated time for

11 examination-in-chief, as did the Defence.

12 MR. TIEGER: Correct.

13 JUDGE KWON: So we have the same material.

14 MR. TIEGER: Okay. And if the Court wishes us to base it on that

15 we, will do so.

16 JUDGE KWON: We will see what we can do. Thank you.

17 For 20 minutes.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

20 JUDGE KWON: For record, the resumption of the second session has

21 been delayed due to some technical difficulties which has been resolved.

22 And we'll take the next break just for 20 minutes, and I -- as I said to

23 you, Mr. Karadzic, so let's try to conclude this witness's evidence by

24 today and then I think there's no point to keep the next witness waiting

25 for his evidence.

Page 1219

1 Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I'd

3 just like to say that my entire preparation was in electronic mode and I

4 had expected to be able to link up here with this computer, but I did

5 have a backup option and I sent three CD-ROMs to Mr. Sladojevic with my

6 preparations. But we didn't receive either, we weren't provided with

7 either. So I was handicapped inasmuch as I did not have the necessary

8 preparations and material that I thought I could use on e-court.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Now, Mr. Crncalo, in the previous document, 818, it says in the

11 last paragraph there, after what you said, that it was with tears in his

12 eyes that Malko Koroman said, after the killing of these two policemen

13 and the wounding of others, the action is still in progress, and the MUP

14 of Pale is calling on all the Muslims in these neighbourhoods to

15 hand-over their weapons in a peaceful way and to refrain from causing any

16 further bloodshed.

17 Do you remember that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this -- this is

21 already an exhibit.

22 I'd like to call up Defence exhibit 1D825 now, please.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. It's on our screens. I'll read out what it says:

25 "In this evening's informative programme of Serbian television,

Page 1220

1 Malko Koroman, head of the MUP of Pale, posed an ultimatum to the armed

2 Muslims in Pale municipality demanding that by the next day, the 23rd of

3 May, by 3.00 p.m., they hand in their weapons.

4 "The ultimatum followed an attack by the Muslim paramilitaries in

5 Renovica on a MUP patrol and members of the MUP, Goran Kablar and

6 Rade Tosic, were killed and five other persons were wounded."

7 The date is the 22nd of May, and after those tears he began

8 functioning as the chief and issued an ultimatum. Do you remember that?

9 I'm sure you do.

10 A. Yes, I do remember, but that wasn't the sequence of events. The

11 Serbs attacked the Muslims in Renovica. The Muslims didn't intend to

12 attack anybody.

13 Q. Mr. Crncalo, they went there to collect up the weapons. How many

14 Muslims and how many Serbs were killed in that action?

15 A. As far as I know, two Serbs were killed and I don't know how many

16 wounded, but --

17 Q. And not a single Muslim; right?

18 A. I can't say that.

19 Q. Well, I'm telling you. I'm saying that not a single Muslim was

20 killed.

21 A. But they caused -- it was the Serb soldiers that caused the

22 conflict by going there in the first place.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender ID825 into

24 evidence, please. I think we have an agreement in principle by the other

25 side.

Page 1221

1 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted as Exhibit D16.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd now like to call up 1D820,

3 please. We have the Serbian version on our screens and the English one

4 too.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. The date is the 23rd of May, that is to say the following day.

7 "Muslims return their weapons," that is the heading. And it says:

8 "After yesterday's ultimatum given by Malko Koroman, the chief of

9 the police station in Pale, for all armed Muslims from Pale to return

10 their weapons by today by 1300 [as interpreted] hours, we have learned

11 that the operation of returning weapons is in progress. By 1700 hours,

12 over 300 pieces of firing weapons from around 30 local villages have been

13 returned to the police station in Pale. It is expected that there will

14 be a lot more because the operation is still underway."

15 Let's remind ourselves. First of all, there was one wave of

16 voluntary surrender of weapons, then the police went round to round up

17 the remaining weapons. Two policemen were killed, then came the

18 ultimatum, and then the second wave of voluntary surrender of weapons

19 took place.

20 A. If that's how it was, why wasn't anybody killed in Pale on the

21 Serb or Muslim side, why not in Praca, why not in Podgrab? Because there

22 was no coercion needed. The announcement was made and the people

23 returned their weapons.

24 Q. Well, we agree on that point, but why didn't the people from

25 Renovica return their weapons?

Page 1222

1 A. Because after that day for two or three years, maybe throughout

2 the war, nobody dared live in Renovica. Why? Because Renovica was fired

3 at by the artillery from all sides.

4 Q. We will come to that. Thank you.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have 1D820 tendered into

6 evidence as have been the other documents? Thank you. And I'd now like

7 to call up 1D822.

8 JUDGE KWON: That is Exhibit D17.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D822 is the next number. It

10 wasn't recorded in the transcript. That's the document number.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The date is the 24th of May there, and the heading is:

13 "Returning of weapons underway."

14 Was there any illegal -- did the population have any illegal

15 weapons?

16 A. I don't know about that. All I know is about the weapons that

17 were registered and how do I know that? Well, I know that because I was

18 a huntsman, I liked the sport of hunting, and I socialised only with

19 people who had -- who were in lawful possession of weapons, hunting

20 weapons, nothing else.

21 Q. Let's see what it says in the first paragraph. It says:

22 "Responding to the ultimatum given two days ago by Malko Koroman,

23 the chief of the police station in Pale, the Muslims from this

24 municipality are returning more and more weapons by the hour."

25 And then the second paragraph goes on to say:

Page 1223

1 "Of course it is not without merit to believe that besides the

2 weapons listed, there are illegally acquired weapons, whose owners have

3 not yet come forward to the police station in Pale. As a reminder, in

4 the recent action in Renovica, police officers confiscated one sniper; a

5 double-barrel handmade rifle, which uses a high-calibre ammunition of 12

6 millimetres; four handguns; and a number of bottles with Molotov

7 cocktails."

8 Do you see what it says there?

9 A. Yes, I've read that.

10 Q. Tell us now, please, what was this Molotov cocktail used for?

11 Was that a hunting weapon?

12 A. Well, I have heard of Molotov cocktails, but I only saw something

13 like on television, never in real life, so I really can't comment on

14 that.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document

17 into evidence as well, please, 1D822.

18 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit D18.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'd like to call up

20 1D826 next, please.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. We have the document now. Mr. Crncalo, you said that people fled

23 from Renovica. Tell me this, please, were there Serbs living in Renovica

24 as well?

25 A. Yes, a number of them, but very little.

Page 1224

1 Q. Thank you. Now, did they have any problems with their Muslim

2 neighbours after this crisis?

3 A. I didn't live down there myself, but knowing what the situation

4 was like before the war I don't assume they had any problems. They

5 co-operated in all areas and had good relations. They were good

6 neighbours, good friends, they socialised, they went to work together,

7 their children went to the same schools together, there weren't any

8 problems. But after this happened, I wasn't down there so I don't want

9 to talk about the rumours I heard. I don't know that there were any

10 problems among the population living around -- in and around Renovica.

11 Q. Thank you. We have 1D826 in front of us now, and the heading

12 there is: "The situation of displaced Serbian families from Renovica."

13 This document was sent to the Municipal Assembly of Pale by the committee

14 of Serbian villages from the Renovica local commune. And this was sent

15 on the following day, that is to say on the 26th of June. However, it

16 refers to events that took place on the 15th of May and onwards. And it

17 says in the second paragraph:

18 "After the 15th of May, 1992, immediately after the Serb forces

19 had collected up the weapons from the members of the Muslim forces in

20 Renovica and its local commune in a military action, the Muslim forces

21 took revenge on the minority Serb population, killing four people of Serb

22 ethnicity and destroying a large number of houses and outbuildings.

23 Given the fact that the military and civilian authorities of Pale

24 municipality did not protect the Serb population in Renovica in any way,

25 these Serb families were displaced and have found temporary shelter in

Page 1225

1 other villages in the municipality with a majority Serb population. They

2 have left behind considerable property, both movable and immovable, which

3 is now being looted. And the Serbs are finding it difficult to survive.

4 To date, these families have not been taken care of or given appropriate

5 accommodation. We hereby appeal to the authorities of Pale municipality

6 personally to investigate the situation and to try to solve the

7 existential question and the problem of the survival of the Serbs from

8 Renovica in a just manner."

9 And that was written on the 25th of June, 1992, sent by the

10 villagers' committee. Now, I don't know if we have an addition to this

11 letter on e-court. Anyway, you know that refugees did arrive from

12 Renovica to Pale; right?

13 A. It says at the beginning of this document, in line 2:

14 "Immediately after the military action, immediately after the

15 military action, events occurred in Renovica," the ones that you're

16 describing now. But it didn't involve gathering up weapons. It was a

17 military action.

18 Q. Mr. Crncalo, we have other documents from which we can see that

19 the army involved the police to round up the weapons, to save the

20 soldiers from having to do that?

21 A. But I'm just reading what it says in your document.

22 Q. Right. But we have the documents, we have Malko Koroman's

23 statement explaining why he sent the policemen to do what they did,

24 because the army asked the police to carry out this operation and he lost

25 two policemen, two were killed, and five others were wounded. And then

Page 1226

1 the Serb neighbours were killed, ordinary civilians who were neither in

2 the army or the police force.

3 A. I don't know about any of that. I'm telling you what I did. I

4 said that I wasn't able to move around the urban part of Pale, and I'm a

5 heavy smoker, let me tell you. But most of the time while I was in Pale,

6 I didn't have any cigarettes.

7 Q. Well, we'll come to that.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I'd like to tender this

9 document 1D826 into evidence now, please.

10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor.

11 MR. GAYNOR: No objection to that.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Doraiswamy.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D19.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. There's an addition to this document, it's still being

17 translated, but, anyway, it's a table, a list of the Serbs from Renovica,

18 Serb families from Renovica. And it says who fled to Pale to the urban

19 area and what property they left behind: Brojnici, Skipina, Rajko;

20 Risto Corovic; Sofija Purkovic, it's a whole list of names.

21 MR. GAYNOR: Could I interrupt, Your Honour. Could I ask that

22 the accused identify the number of this document on the list that was

23 provided to us by the Defence.

24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. It was 1D827, the

Page 1227

1 next document following on from the previous one. I've read this out

2 Sofija Purkovic; Grozda; Corovic; Luka Kalajdzic; Milanko Mitrovic,

3 that's from the village of Brojnici. And what they left behind was

4 houses, sheds, bombs, 35 sheep, one cow, one pig, and a lot of chickens,

5 and he, this first person, went to stay with his son, Dragan, at Pale.

6 Everything else was burned. He doesn't know where his cattle and animals

7 are, and a lot of other agricultural equipment. Then we have Risto

8 Corovic, he left behind a house, two barns, a shed, 60 sheep, three cows,

9 two horses, two pigs, chickens, and so on. All the other outbuildings

10 and agricultural equipment was set fire to, including a tractor, a small

11 TAM truck, a sowing machine, and so on. Tell me whether you know

12 anything about this.

13 A. Well, I'm surprised to see that you don't have any data about how

14 many Muslim males were arrested in Renovica and taken to prison.

15 Q. Well, you tell us then.

16 A. I don't know. I know there were such people. I don't know what

17 the number was, but I do know that they were beaten up and that three of

18 them succumbed to their wounds and died as a result of the beatings.

19 Q. We'll come to that, but let's see what these people, these Serbs

20 from Renovica, suffered at the hands of their neighbours, Grozda, another

21 woman left a house, a barn, a shed, ten sheep, her animals taken away.

22 Luka Kalajdzic also left behind a barn, a shed, and a house, 15 sheep,

23 two cows and two pigs and the outbuildings were set fire to, his animals

24 taken away, and so on and so forth. For the next person, too; however,

25 his cattle were not burnt, neither was his house. From the village of

Page 1228

1 Jelak, we have Srdanovic, Gojko; Milja Srdanovic, she was an old woman.

2 Then we have Ranko Sokolovic, those are the same Sokolovics that

3 Mehmet-Pasa Sokolovic, the famous Turkish "fezija," [phoen] they were

4 descendants of him, the same name, Sokolovic?

5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, what is your question?

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Does Mr. Crncalo dispute this?

8 A. What you just read, is this Jelak or Ilijak village?

9 Q. The original says Jelak.

10 A. I don't know about that village. I know about a village called

11 Ilijak. Ilijak population did not need to be evacuated from their homes.

12 Q. You know Srdanovics, Pavlovics from Renovica, do you know these

13 people?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You know Srdanovics, they are the most numerous. There are

16 Removics as well, all of them except this old woman, and one person had

17 their property burned, but I would like this document marked for

18 identification because we are still awaiting translation. It's 1D827.

19 But, in summary, there is Skipina, Corovic, Turkovic, three families,

20 Corovic, Mitrovic, Srdanovic, Srdanovic again, Sokolovics, two --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could we slow down, please.

22 JUDGE KWON: Dr. Karadzic, we can read it later on.

23 You have no objection, Mr. Gaynor?

24 MR. GAYNOR: No objection to having it marked for identification.

25 I'd just like to observe that it's not clear from the title of the

Page 1229

1 document, which itself is only partly legible, but even if it were

2 legible, it's not entirely clear which authority produced this document

3 and the accused has put his case to the witness, no objection to that,

4 but he has also contextualised this document in his own submissions which

5 is an issue which we may wish to return to at some other point. I'm just

6 raising it at this point. But no objection in principle.

7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, did you not say that this was part of

8 the previous document or annex of it?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the first document is a

10 letter to the municipality, and the second document is also signed by

11 inhabitants of Renovica of Serb ethnicity on the 25th of June. They made

12 submissions as to what they had lost to the municipality which failed to

13 protect them. They are submitting a reckoning of what they lost. You

14 can look at the last page. It says exactly what it is.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

16 Mr. Doraiswamy.

17 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D20, marked for

18 identification.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Crncalo, you mentioned that in Pale life was very hard for

21 Muslims and they were unable to buy what they wanted to buy in the

22 amounts they wanted. Did you say that?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I'd like to call up 1D810.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1230

1 Q. We have both versions. The date is 24 April. It says:

2 "Agency 'SRNA' was authorised by the Pale Crisis Staff to

3 announce the following:

4 "In the interest of controlling prices in the Pale region, all

5 wholesale trade shall be conducted exclusively through the trade

6 enterprise 'Veleprom' Pale.

7 "Retail shops privately and socially owned shall be supplied

8 exclusively through this company.

9 "The sale prices of articles have to be identical and clearly

10 labelled, as well as information regarding available quantities.

11 "The shops that fail to abide by this role shall be closed down."

12 You didn't mention later -- earlier that everyone felt

13 restrictions of food and that the prices were controlled by the

14 municipalities. You said it only applied to Muslims.

15 A. And what would you say if you read on the window of a shop that

16 there are no goods for non-Serbs? What would you say?

17 Q. I would ask why didn't you state that earlier.

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Which shop was that?

20 A. Korani.

21 Q. Which one in Korani?

22 A. There are not many shops in Korani.

23 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I have to tell you there is an old rule from Roman

24 law altera pars which means listen to the other side as well. I should

25 have known this much earlier, and there will be a response. Let's try to

Page 1231

1 avoid claims like some Serbs did something to some Muslims --

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor.

3 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Mr. President. As a general matter, I think

4 the accused should refrain from giving directions to the witness. I

5 think that's more the task of the Presiding Judge, and the Presiding

6 Judge has control over the questioning of the witness. The accused

7 should refrain from the comments such as those which he's just made.

8 JUDGE KWON: I tend to agree with it.

9 Mr. Karadzic, bear that in mind. Just -- why don't you just put

10 your questions. Let's continue.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree with that too, but I wasn't

12 giving instructions. I just wanted to explain why I was insisting on

13 accuracy and precision --

14 JUDGE KWON: Just put your question.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. This report that agency "SRNA" made on the authority of the

17 government in Pale to the effect that prices and quantities of goods

18 available are restricted for all buyers, is it correct?

19 A. I never saw this announcement before while I was living in Pale,

20 but it was basically first come, first served. And if we had no food

21 left at home, only then would we go to a shop. I mostly went if I was

22 out of cigarettes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this document admitted?

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

Page 1232

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D21, Your Honour.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call now 1D815.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. We see the document now, "suppressing smuggling at Pale." The

5 date is the 2nd of April, 1992.

6 JUDGE KWON: May.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. May? Is it May? Yes, yes, we can see from the translation that

9 it's May:

10 "Many citizens are calling the 'SRNA' agency and begging us to do

11 something to stop the smuggling and the illegal raising of prices of

12 various goods. We are, therefore, once again publishing the decision of

13 the Pale Crisis Staff that all wholesale trade must be conducted through

14 the trade enterprise 'Velprom' in Pale."

15 You know about that enterprise?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It was state-owned at the time?

18 A. I didn't ask.

19 Q. "Retail shops privately and socially owned shall be supplied

20 exclusively through this company.

21 "The sale prices of products have to be identical and visibly

22 indicated and so must the information regarding available quantities."

23 Do you agree that this is a measure against those who wanted to

24 make profit at the expense of poor people?

25 A. Smuggling has not stopped to this day, let alone then. They

Page 1233

1 still haven't managed to put a stop to thieves who steal cars,

2 disassemble them, and sell spare parts.

3 Q. Well, that's why this was issued by the authorities in Pale.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

5 document 1D815 and to call up new document 1D809.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D22.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D809.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. We have it now in English and in Serbian. It's again 24 May:

11 "The 'SRNA' agency is under obligation to publish the

12 announcement made by the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Pale.

13 "In the municipality of Pale and all the regions that have joined

14 the municipality, the regular supply of food and other staples has been

15 restored at very favourable prices for all shops.

16 "There will be enough food in the future as well, and citizens do

17 not need to create crowds.

18 "Consumers are encouraged to report unauthorised increases in

19 prices at the following numbers ..." and so forth.

20 Third paragraph:

21 "All owners of tractors, lawn mowers, and motor vehicles from the

22 municipality of Pale are informed that they should report to their

23 community offices in order to receive a confirmation, a certificate, to

24 enable them to buy fuel.

25 "All men who had fled to the area of Pale between 18 and 60 years

Page 1234

1 of age are hereby informed to immediately report to the secretariat for

2 national defence."

3 Next item:

4 "On the territory of the municipality of Pale, not a single

5 incident has occurred until now or an unlawful break-in and entering, as

6 was the case in Sarajevo. Should any incident occur, the perpetrator

7 shall be taken to the court in Pale and be appropriately punished on the

8 spot.

9 "All industrial and social sectors are working normally in the

10 municipality of Pale. The elementary school in Pale is full beyond

11 capacity with students from Sarajevo.

12 "Refugees are receiving food aid daily.

13 "Citizens of all ethnicities are responding in large numbers to

14 the call for donating blood."

15 That's the last paragraph. Does this also reflect the situation

16 in Pale in end May 1992?

17 A. Possibly. But when there was an attack in Zepa, young men from

18 my street went to donate blood and were turned back. They were refused.

19 Q. Well, we don't know whether the blood bank had the resources to

20 keep the blood donated.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

22 document as well.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. In any case, it says here that people of all ethnicities are

25 responding. You are talking about Muslim young men?

Page 1235

1 A. Yes, yes, but it happened after the attack on Zepa.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, do we have a

3 number for this document, 1D809?

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D23.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D808 is going to be our next

7 document.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. There it is. Dated 18 April 1992, two weeks into the war:

10 "Agency 'SRNA' learned that on 17 April 1992 at 1645 hours, the

11 first healthy baby was born in the newly opened general surgical hospital

12 in the Serbian municipality of Pale."

13 Let me digress here. Why was it called Serbian municipality of

14 Pale? Do you remember that this name is used only if it was envisaged

15 that the municipal -- that the Muslim municipality of Pale existed in

16 parallel?

17 A. It didn't.

18 Q. But it was envisaged?

19 A. I was never involved in politics, but I know the Muslim

20 municipality did not exist at this time.

21 Q. So:

22 " ... in the newly opened general surgical ward in the Serbian

23 municipality of Pale, the first healthy baby was born. Nermina Causevic

24 from Renovica gave birth to a healthy girl.

25 "Even though labour was very complicated, everything ended well

Page 1236

1 and the happy mother is recuperating in the hospital with all the

2 necessary care."

3 Is Nermina Causevic, judging by the name, a Muslim woman?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember that event?

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document

9 into evidence, 1D808, please.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D24, Your Honours.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up Defence

13 document 1D811, 811, please.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. We have the document in both versions. The here is the 26th of

16 April, 1992, and there's another news agency report, and it says:

17 "Today mothers and young women from Pale visited the wounded who

18 are being treated in Koran. The women from Pale wished them happy

19 Easter," so it's Easter here; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. "... and a quick recovery and showed their concern for their

22 health and welfare with presents that they presented them with.

23 "The responsible official thanked these women from Pale for their

24 visit and asked them to prevail upon their husbands and brothers not to

25 shoot if there is no need, even if we're dealing with holidays, because

Page 1237

1 shooting -- the sound of shooting upsets the people in hospital."

2 Now, you mentioned the shooting that Muslims and Serbs went about

3 when there was a celebration, and now we see this document and what it

4 says there. Do you agree?

5 A. Well, I can't agree or disagree. This is the first time that I

6 see this document.

7 Q. But you would agree that if there's shooting it upsets people in

8 hospital?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document

12 into evidence now, please.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Exhibit D25, Your Honour.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd now like 1D823 to be called up

16 next, please.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. The date is the 25th of May, 1992, it's an order from the

19 Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of Pale. It says:

20 "Based on a request made by the command of the armed forces of

21 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the Executive Board of the Municipal

22 Assembly of Pale, at its session held on the 25th of May, issued an order

23 that the work of catering businesses, bars, and cafes be temporarily

24 suspended. This order excludes catering facilities serving food, but

25 they are prohibited temporarily from serving alcohol as well."

Page 1238

1 The rest isn't important, but do you remember that there were

2 these restrictions and limitations on the work of cafes and restaurants

3 and bars and the issuance of alcohol?

4 A. Well, I told you about life in Pale as I knew it, and I know

5 these cafes and bars very well, the main ones in the centre. And I can

6 tell you that civilians went there and soldiers went there while I was

7 living there, and I was expelled in 1992 on the 2nd of July. Up until

8 then, the cafes and bars in the centre were working, they were open.

9 Q. Thank you. This was on the 25th of May, which means one week

10 prior to your departure -- you left in July; is that right? I apologise.

11 I got the dates mixed up.

12 A. Yes, July.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document

15 into evidence, 1D823, please.

16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor?

17 MR. GAYNOR: No objection to this either.

18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D26.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I want to ask you something now. Have you had --

22 did you have enough of us politicians on television? Did you have enough

23 of seeing our faces on your television screens and so on and everything

24 we were saying?

25 A. Well, I'll be quite frank. If the people could do anything, then

Page 1239

1 they wouldn't have allowed you anywhere near the media in Bosnia or near

2 the press or near any kind of electronic media.

3 Q. But whatever we said they would broadcast; is that right?

4 A. No. Whatever you did, you did something that was bad for the

5 people. What worse thing in the world is there than war, as far as the

6 population is concerned? And that's what you were engaged in.

7 Q. I agree, but I just want to know whether the media were

8 interested in Izetbegovic, myself, Kljuc, the leaders of the three ethnic

9 communities?

10 A. Well, I'm not going to tell you what the journalists did. Yes,

11 they did interview you all the time, but the people didn't want you, let

12 me tell you that.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D831,

15 please. It's a document that is being translated, but I'm going to put a

16 few paragraphs to you.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. It concerns an event related to Zlovrh. You mentioned this in

19 your statement, I believe, and in your testimony as well?

20 A. No, I didn't mention Zlovrh.

21 Q. But I mean the crisis, the incident that took place, you

22 mentioned that. And this piece of news -- or rather, it's a report of

23 some kind from the commander of a unit which went to Zlovrh. His name

24 was Suka, Dragan. I'm going to read out a few paragraphs:

25 "On the 2nd of June, 1992, I was called by the Main Staff of the

Page 1240

1 Army of the Serbian Republic of BH, through Colonel Veljko Bosanac. I

2 was told to report to Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic in order to be

3 issued my assignment. At the time I was in Praca, and I set out to take

4 on my assignment. I reported to Major-General Milovanovic, and in the

5 presence of Major-General Gvero, Djukic, and some other officers, he

6 issued the following order to me: He said that on the 4th of June, 1992,

7 I was to go to Zlovrh, a military repeater station there, to hand over

8 water, food, and ammunition for 32 persons, to last them one month. At

9 the time at Zlovrh, there were two officers and ten soldiers. And I was

10 supposed to provide 20 more men to provide security."

11 I'd now like to skip the next part and move on to paragraph 3.

12 "I informed him about my activities and he said that I should

13 prepare to carry out my assignment. In the hallway, I came across the

14 chief of the traffic service and asked him to provide me with ten

15 soldiers that I needed to carry out my assignment. The head of the

16 traffic service asked General Milovanovic if that was okay and if he

17 could -- but he said that he could not provide me with ten soldiers. I

18 was told that I was not allowed to fire a single bullet because

19 everything had been decided and agreed upon with the other side and that

20 only food, water, and fuel should be transported there. I returned to

21 Pale at 2100 hours. And then on the 4th of June, I went to the unit."

22 This is a rather epic rendition, rather long.

23 But on page 2, it goes on to say, after describing the route they

24 had taken, he said:

25 "We went past the village Stoborani, on the left bank."

Page 1241

1 JUDGE KWON: Slow down, Mr. Karadzic. What is the point of

2 reading out the whole document? What is your question?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, no, I'm just reading

4 excerpts.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. In this particular paragraph, Mr. Suka is explaining what

7 happened to him en route and the agreement made with the Muslim side from

8 Zepa. He said that the bridge was de-mined and that they moved on. He

9 says:

10 "When I reached the bridge, snipers opened fire and I was the

11 main target of attack. My driver was wounded on the occasion and all-out

12 fighting broke out."

13 And we can now move on to page 3 --

14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, put your question. We are here to

15 hear evidence of Mr. Crncalo, not Mr. Suka. If necessary, you can call

16 him. You can put the content, in a brief manner, of the statement to

17 Mr. Crncalo, as you did, but there's no point of going through all the

18 content of it, reading out in the transcript. And you can admit -- you

19 can tender the document if necessary.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Crncalo, you said that 45 soldiers were killed in this

22 incident, of which 40 were from Pale; isn't that right?

23 A. Well, I never mentioned any numbers.

24 Q. But it is the large group and the many killings that took place?

25 A. I know that the helicopters brought in the dead and wounded, but

Page 1242

1 I didn't know the numbers. I didn't know how many.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, I'm talking about the event you mentioned as

3 having seen and heard me address these families.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender 1D831 and then I

5 have two more questions to ask based on that document, for

6 identification, of course, because it's being translated.

7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor.

8 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, we object to the admission of this.

9 This is a statement of Dragan Suka and the correct route for admission,

10 as Your Honours have already ruled, is 92 bis or 92 ter. I also note in

11 passing that it's not signed.

12 JUDGE KWON: Same rule, Mr. Karadzic, if you like to tender this

13 into evidence, you can call him later on. But you can put the crux of

14 the statement to the witness, but we will not admit it. Go on, please.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Crncalo, this was a moment of crisis with a lot of tension;

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. A large-scale funeral; right?

21 A. I didn't see the funeral myself, but, yes, I just happened to see

22 the gathering of people as I was passing by.

23 Q. You were about 10 metres away from me; is that right?

24 A. Well, a little further away, maybe 50 metres, maybe more.

25 Q. Thank you. But would you see me about in Pale otherwise?

Page 1243

1 A. No, that was the first time that I saw you.

2 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Crncalo, how is it possible that I said

3 anything in an open space without it being broadcast in one way or

4 another?

5 A. Well, you ask your people that, the people who accompanied you

6 and all the people who broadcast your statements and announcements

7 generally. I don't know.

8 Q. But what I want to say is - and you confirmed this - the media,

9 especially at Pale, would broadcast and publish everything I said and

10 everything the other prominent politicians said. So how is it possible

11 for me to say something as drastic as you say I said here without ever

12 anybody having recorded it?

13 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how that was possible,

15 but that's what you said.

16 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to object to the form of the question. The

17 question said that the witness had confirmed an item of evidence, and I'd

18 ask the accused to identify when that was confirmed. I don't think the

19 witness confirmed that at all.

20 JUDGE KWON: Agreed.

21 [Defence counsel confer]

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In today's transcript, on page 55,

23 line 17, when I put an introductory question to the witness and asked

24 whether the media were interested in my activities and whether they

25 followed them closely. And the witness's answer was to confirm that,

Page 1244

1 that I was constantly in the news.

2 I'd now like to make things more precise to help the Prosecution

3 out. It was a statement given in Sarajevo on the 23rd of August, 1995,

4 where you, Mr. Crncalo, did not mention that important sentence which I

5 allegedly uttered; that is to say that the best way to protect Serb

6 houses was to attack Muslim houses. You never ever stated that anywhere

7 else before.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if you think that I thought

9 this up, then just look through the tapes and transcripts, and I believe

10 that the Tribunal has that too, that in other places you also said, Let's

11 attack Muslim houses, attack Muslim houses, and by doing so you'll be

12 defending your own.

13 JUDGE KWON: But, Mr. Crncalo, the question was whether you told

14 the authorities that on 23rd of August that Mr. Karadzic said to attack

15 Muslim houses. Do you remember whether you said that or not?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, on one occasion,

17 in one of my statements, I did mention that, but I can't give you an

18 exact date.

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Crncalo, not only in the statement of the 23rd of August,

22 1995, not only did you not mention it there, but you didn't mention it

23 during the -- your testimony in the Krajisnik trial, on transcript page

24 5294 and 5327 and 5342 in the Krajisnik trial, where you mentioned the

25 event. You don't mention a single word about my having said that; is

Page 1245

1 that true?

2 A. Well, I didn't testify against you. This is the first time that

3 I'm testifying against you here.

4 Q. Excellent. Thank you.

5 So you prepared yourself especially for me, did you?

6 A. Why should I prepare myself especially? I just rely on my

7 memory, what I remember, and I give statements on the basis of that.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd now like to call up document

9 1D854, please. 1D854 is the minutes and tape-recording, and this is the

10 transcript of that recording from the 17th Session of the

11 People's Assembly held on the 24th to the 26th of July, 1992.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Here we have it. On page 2 of this document, you have part of my

14 speech recorded, and a quarter of the Muslims had already left,

15 three-quarters remained. Now, here is what I say in that speech at this

16 Assembly session, and I'm addressing the deputies, the Assembly members.

17 And it's paragraph 3:

18 "As for the first item on the agenda, the president of the

19 Presidency of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina will be speaking

20 about the political war time situation in the Serb Republic of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina," so that the president of the Assembly is asking me

22 to take the floor.

23 And now I'd like to move on to page 3 because we can skip this

24 interjectory part. I don't want to tire the Trial Chamber and the

25 participants with that section, but if we move on to page 3, at the

Page 1246

1 beginning there, here is what I say:

2 "It is with regret that I have to state that in Palama the

3 Muslims do not want peace except in Bijeljina and in Pale where there are

4 20 per cent of them because nobody is touching them there, nor does

5 anyone consider them to be second-rate citizens. But, on the contrary,

6 our state officials are communicating with them trying to persuade them

7 that they have no reason for fear and anxiety. So in Serbian

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbian people have gained their freedom and

9 their state and they're willing to allow others to live alongside them.

10 And I hope that during the Assembly we will make some conclusions and

11 decisions to further invigorate this state."

12 Do you see that part of the text and that part of my speech?

13 A. Yes.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is well-known to the Prosecution

15 and, therefore, I would like to tender this part of the transcript of the

16 Assembly held in July. It is 1D854, so I'd like to tender 1D854 into

17 evidence now, please.

18 MR. GAYNOR: No objection, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

20 But what was your question, Mr. Karadzic?

21 After reading out this part, all you asked was whether you see

22 that part of the text. What's the point of your question to the witness?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The point is, Your Excellency, that

24 I wanted to hear from Mr. Crncalo how what he says tallies with this,

25 which is the official policy of the state. And this was a closed session

Page 1247

1 of the parliament. It was not known in advance that this transcript will

2 ever become public.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, why were we then expelled

4 from Pale? Just tell me. Why?

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. We'll come to that. I'm just asking you how can what you say be

7 possible, and we have no trace of that, no record, whereas for this we

8 have a record? Our officials such as Koljevic are meeting citizens,

9 although it would be quite enough for a municipal chief to meet with the

10 citizens. But the vice-president of the state is here meeting with

11 citizens to assure them that there is nothing to fear.

12 A. Well, what I'm saying is corroborated by what Koljevic said;

13 namely, that Serbs don't want to live together with Muslims at Pale.

14 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on.

15 What would be the exhibit number?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D27.

17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

18 If it's convenient, shall we have a break now? We will have a

19 break for 20 minutes.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Crncalo, yesterday, on transcript page 74, you said that the

25 Serb authorities pursued an active campaign for the expulsion of Muslims,

Page 1248

1 or rather, to make Muslims leave Pale; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did this campaign look like? How did it manifest itself?

4 That is, in March while the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina still

5 existed, who was the minister of the interior?

6 A. I think Bakir Alispahic.

7 Q. He was also high up. It was actually Alija Delimustafic. And

8 who was the minister of defence?

9 A. I did not look into these political positions. I wasn't

10 interested.

11 Q. Could it have been Jerko Doko, a Croat?

12 A. Let it be.

13 Q. There were very prominent Muslim senior staff Avdo Hebib,

14 Munir Alispahic, Bakir Alispahic, Selmo Selimovic, and Alija Delimustafic

15 in the MUP. Could you name one prominent Serb in the MUP?

16 A. This is not the first time I'm answering a question like this.

17 I'm telling you again politics didn't interest me and politicians didn't

18 interest me. I was interested in the regular life of a regular citizen.

19 JUDGE KWON: Just for record, Mr. Karadzic, what you cited is

20 part of Mr. Gaynor's summary, not his evidence. Let's proceed.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Excellency, but

22 Mr. Gaynor asked for a confirmation and received it from the witness. So

23 that is to be considered the evidence of this witness. I agree we should

24 not delve into politics, but this is about the state of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina and the state authorities. Until the 6th of April, the state

Page 1249

1 authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the MUP, especially, were full

2 of prominent Muslim staff. There was only one Serb in charge of crime

3 investigation. All the rest were Muslims.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. How come then that something happened in Pale that nothing

6 prevented -- that no one from the state authorities prevented or even

7 published?

8 A. These problems started with your establishment of the Assembly of

9 Republika Srpska. You were involved directly. You were a participant; I

10 was not.

11 Q. Okay. We'll move on. We'll discuss it with other people, when

12 exactly Republika Srpska started to operate. Here is one document,

13 1D832, if we can call it up. 1D832. We have the Serbian and here is the

14 English. This is the response of the Municipal Assembly of Pale, dated

15 11 April 1992, to the group of Muslim citizens of Pale. It was not

16 intended for the media. It was not sent to anyone else. It was sent to

17 the group that had presented certain demands. Here is what the text

18 says:

19 "Having taken into consideration your proposals of 10 April

20 1992," that means the day before, "the Crisis Staff of the Serbian

21 municipality of Pale has concluded, as follows:

22 "There is no reason for the Muslim population to panic or move

23 out, the Serbian municipality of Pale shall offer full protection to all

24 citizens of Pale, whatever their ethnicity or creed."

25 It's just after this time that this lady gave birth to that

Page 1250

1 child, and there were other activities showing that there was no

2 discrimination whatsoever.

3 Second paragraph:

4 "The population on the territory of the Serbian municipality of

5 Pale will continue to be supplied as before, taking care that supplies be

6 provided equally to all parts of the municipality."

7 Third paragraph:

8 "In order to overcome any potential difficulties, the

9 Crisis Staff hereby proposes that the same issues be agreed on by the

10 inter-party commission composed of members of the Pale SDS and SDA

11 parties."

12 Have you -- were you part of this delegation?

13 A. Yes, on more than one occasion I was part of the local

14 delegation, but I was not involved in the way you suggest, in any

15 negotiations between the SDS and the SDA. I was part of a delegation as

16 a regular citizen. And now when you talk about this document that is on

17 the screen now, why would someone be sending, at the same time, activists

18 to work in town on the ground motivating people to move out?

19 Q. I don't know. This group addressed the authorities with the

20 demand to be allowed to move out, and the authorities reply, Don't do

21 that. Stay here.

22 There is a poem written by Aleksa Santic that's called "Stay

23 Here," you know, at the time of the Turks, the Ottoman Turk occupation.

24 A. Why couldn't they guarantee our safety? Every time we had

25 contacts with the officials of the Pale municipality, nobody was able to

Page 1251

1 give us any guarantees of safety. That's the answer we received.

2 Q. You received a reply in writing. The first paragraph says:

3 "The Serbian municipality of Pale shall offer full protection to

4 all citizens regardless of ethnicity or creed."

5 A. This document was never shown to a single Muslim in Pale.

6 Q. We have a witness statement from another Muslim, and we'll show

7 it in due time.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this Defence document,

9 1D832?

10 MR. GAYNOR: No objection, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

12 Yes.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D28.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me remind you -- the date of

15 this document was 11 April.

16 And may I now call up 1D828. We have an English translation as

17 well.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. This is an agency report dated 16 of April, four days after that

20 response to the group of citizens of Muslim ethnicity in Pale. This text

21 says in the subheading:

22 "Muslims in Pale municipality recognise the legal police force in

23 the municipality, trust them, and ask to co-operate exclusively with them

24 while controlling the area where they constitute the majority, claims the

25 agency."

Page 1252

1 And then the text goes:

2 "The authorities and the police in the Serbian municipality of

3 Pale have reached an agreement with the Muslim population from several

4 villages in the municipality, whereby all problems will be resolved by

5 agreement only, reports the 'SRNA' news agency." And this was reported

6 by the "Glas" newspaper in Sarajevo.

7 The text goes on to say:

8 "Having defined the Muslim villages as Bare, Rakovica, Praca, and

9 Podgrab, the agency stated that the Muslims in these villages had been

10 guarantees of personal safety and security of their properties, as well

11 as normal supplies and regular bus transport.

12 "The Muslims in Pale municipality recognise the legal police in

13 the municipality, trust them, and ask to co-operate exclusively with them

14 in controlling the area where they constitute the majority, reports the

15 agency."

16 So this was the basis, the proposal was to have two police

17 stations in every area, that Muslims policemen go into Muslim villages,

18 Serbs to go into Serb villages, everyone to deal with their own

19 criminals; is that the way it was?

20 A. Yes, we were looking for safety in Pale municipality, guarantees

21 of safety. Malko Koroman, chief of police, told us. As long as there is

22 no Muslim in the police station of Stari Grad, there will be no Muslim

23 policemen in Pale.

24 Q. And you understand and you see that the municipality of

25 Stari Grad cheated on the agreement to have Serbs represented in the

Page 1253

1 police of that municipality, but let's leave that aside. The text goes

2 on:

3 "'SRNA' agency also denied the news item broadcast on Sarajevo TV

4 last night that Muslims working in the Kasindol hospital near Sarajevo

5 had been denied access to the hospital. There are only three doctors

6 working in the hospital and they are on duty, on call, around-the-clock.

7 The director, therefore, calls upon all the employees to report to work

8 as soon as possible."

9 Did you know about this, that this was publicised in the media?

10 A. I didn't know about this, but I would like to comment on the

11 second point, with your leave. On the 15th of May - and I mentioned it

12 in my statement - was the day when Muslim workers in the Korani factory

13 were not allowed to come in by the guard standing in the reception area.

14 Muslims were turned back and Serbs were allowed in. I wasn't going into

15 the factory, but I just ran into my manager. Let me give you a time

16 indication. It was just after that incident in Renovica. I asked my

17 manager, Milivoj Utaj [phoen], Boss, were we dismissed? And he says, No,

18 I just don't want to take any risks. I don't want anyone to be shot in

19 the back in the factory. For the time being, go home, let's wait and

20 see.

21 Muslims were not allowed to go into the factory at that time.

22 That is a comment on this Kasindol hospital news item.

23 Q. But I'm talking about the 11th and the 15th of April. What

24 you're talking about was in May. We'll have to check that. Whatever you

25 say, I will have to respond to and present evidence either through you or

Page 1254

1 through another witness.

2 A. Go ahead. I'm here at your disposal. Ask whatever you wish.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I propose that this document 1D832

5 be admitted into evidence.

6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor?

7 MR. GAYNOR: No objection, Mr. President.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D29, Your Honours.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I also tender 828.

10 JUDGE KWON: That was it ...

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I will now make a statement and corroborate it with

15 documents, and I will ask you, in the form of a question, to give me your

16 response. I maintain that both presidents of the Pale municipality and

17 the entire municipality acted as a very responsible and careful

18 authorities and so did the third president, Vojo Milutinovic, whom you,

19 perhaps, know. They were very careful and they never discriminated

20 against Muslims, they didn't distinguish between Muslims and Serbs. I'm

21 talking about the authorities, not about individuals.

22 A. At the time covered by my statements, there was this younger man,

23 Starcevic, I don't know his first name. He never told us a harsh word,

24 but he also couldn't give us any guarantees. Whenever we asked him for

25 assurances of safety, he would send us to the police chief,

Page 1255

1 Malko Koroman. And Malko Koroman would say, Oh, it's a better idea to go

2 back to him and ask the same. We were just going back and forth, from

3 one to the other. You know better and you don't have to answer me, you

4 know that power was in the hands at that time of the Crisis Staff most

5 probably. Neither of these two men dared give any guarantees.

6 Q. Mr. Crncalo, the president of the municipality does not have

7 command over the police. The police is commanded by the police commander

8 under the supervision of the chief of the police station, Mr. Koroman.

9 So the president of the municipality says, Go to the competent people

10 whose job it is. And this Mr. Cvoro, on behalf of the municipality,

11 provides guarantees, saying, Everything will be all right.

12 Now, let me ask you, why were you living in fear and experiencing

13 restrictions when you were so close, 15 metres away from the president of

14 the republic in war time? Could you -- were you not able to kill me?

15 A. I'm not a killer, I never even thought about it. As far as

16 restrictions go and the fear, if you had walked through Pale and run into

17 those young men gone completely berserk, armed to their teeth with knives

18 this size, bare above the waist, red ribbons around their forearms and

19 around their foreheads, they were driving coupes armed with automatic

20 guns, who would not fear them? How can you say we were not under

21 pressure and living in fear? Anyone who says that is out of their mind.

22 Q. Were they people from Pale or some strangers?

23 A. You know the size of Pale. I cannot recognise every single

24 person. One night, one of my work colleagues was on a patrol. The

25 person who was his partner moved towards me, probably to arrest me, and

Page 1256

1 this work colleague of mine told him, Don't touch him. This is one of

2 our locals, a quiet man. And I had just been on an errand to buy

3 cigarettes and when I came home I told my wife, I almost got arrested and

4 taken away.

5 Q. Mr. Crncalo, are we of different races? Could we -- could anyone

6 looking at us tell that one of us is a Serb, the other is a Muslim?

7 A. You know what? You are from Montenegro; I am from Bosnia. My

8 parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents lived and died in Bosnia.

9 They always lived in peace with their Serb neighbours. There had never

10 been any friction. People were more careful and eager to do a favour to

11 a Serb neighbour than a Muslim neighbour. They would always welcome Serb

12 neighbours and serve them better than Muslim neighbours until those

13 political parties came on the scene. And now this difference in

14 appearance, you couldn't tell who is who. But what is hidden inside,

15 nobody can tell either.

16 Q. We must hurry-up if you don't want to come back next week. What

17 I want to say, Mr. Crncalo, is the fact that if some soldiers were coming

18 back from the front or going back to the front, and it doesn't say on

19 your forehead that you were a Muslim, and even if it did say so, whether

20 a Muslim was killed at Pale by some such soldiers -- not at Pale --

21 A. Not in the street but in the prison they were.

22 Q. Now, I'd like to depict a picture from the 6th of April right up

23 to the 12th of June. We have a situation whereby at Pale there were at

24 least as many refugees as there were local inhabitants, and we saw that

25 the municipality was doing its best to provide food and limit smugglers

Page 1257

1 and war profiteers from smuggling in food, and so on. They were

2 rationing food, stipulating how much could be bought by one person, and

3 forbidding tradesmen from putting up prices unreasonably, and they

4 charged one company to be in charge of selling food, and so on.

5 Then weapons were handed in and some weapons were not. And do

6 you know how they know that? Because they arrested Senaid Memic and

7 "hodza" Glivaja [phoen] owned up. So the police knew how many weapons

8 there were. In this second wave, the police were going hand in hand with

9 the army to collect up the weapons and in Renovica --

10 MR. GAYNOR: The accused should come to his question immediately.

11 JUDGE KWON: Let's stop the speech and put your question. If you

12 are going to put your case, just be brief. Please go on.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Were there any refugees and what was the ratio? Were there as

16 many refugees as there were local inhabitants?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was food -- were food supplies rationed and didn't the

19 authorities prohibit profiteers from raising prices?

20 A. I can tell you about a woman from Dobrinja, she was a Serb coming

21 into Pale and she had a 250-gram package of margarine in one hand and 2

22 or 3 kilos of potatoes in the on the other hand. And I asked her, Where

23 did you buy that? And she said, I didn't buy it, it was being

24 distributed. So she said, How am I going to survive on just this for the

25 next week, 250 grams of margarine and 2 or 3 kilos of potatoes?

Page 1258

1 Q. Was she a Serb?

2 A. Yes, she was a Serb.

3 Q. All right. Now, when the first call came up, were quantities of

4 weapons handed over?

5 A. As far as I know, the urban part of Pale, the people there in the

6 space of two hours, everybody got together and handed in their weapons to

7 the police station. Now, I can't say what happened in Praca, Renovica,

8 and Podgrab and so on, in those other villages lower down. I told you

9 how I moved around Pale and what happened in Pale.

10 Q. But you confirmed that there was an ultimatum, that people were

11 killed, and that after these policemen were killed, Malko Koroman made

12 the ultimatum over television with tears in his eyes and then a second

13 wave of handing in weapons took place; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly be asked to slow down

16 for the benefit of one and all. Thank you.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, please put a pause. I know you are

18 hurrying, but don't forget the hard work of the interpreters. Let's

19 proceed.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I would like to express my

21 respect for the interpreters and to apologise to them, and I'm sure they

22 understand me too.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. We know that the families suffered, the four people were killed,

25 the others fled, their property was seized, their houses burnt, their

Page 1259

1 cattle seized, and then we come to Zlovrh, 40 dead; right?

2 A. Well, I don't know about Zlovrh. Where is this place, Zlovrh?

3 Q. Well, it's the incident when they were killed in Zepa in an

4 ambush, they were killed in an ambush, they were tricked. Although they

5 were told that they could take food to the crew at the relay station at

6 Zlovrh and that was a relay station that catered to all of us, the whole

7 population. And that was where you saw me, that's called Zlovrh.

8 A. Can I comment? One Serb fighter said on television, when he was

9 transported by helicopter from Zepa to Pale, can I tell you what he said?

10 Q. Could you please answer my questions, otherwise you will stay on

11 next week too. So it would be better for you to just stick to answering

12 my questions.

13 Anyway, that was the situation in which the president of the

14 municipality, Radislav Starcevic was his name, and Slobodan Kacevic

15 [phoen] was the man before him, he couldn't take it anymore so he left

16 that position. But he wrote this document 1D833, the one I'd like to

17 have called up now. We have the document on our screens. The date is

18 the 12th of June, 1992, which means that after all these events, the

19 president of the Pale municipality is writing to the secretary of the

20 Serbian Democratic Party of Pale. And this is what he says:

21 "As the president of the Assembly, I am requesting that you

22 urgently call a meeting of the Main Board of the SDS of Pale in order for

23 the party to adopt a general position on the moving out of non-Serbs from

24 Pale municipality:

25 "I would like to point out that unless the Main Board meets as

Page 1260

1 soon as possible, or rather, if the Main Board meets as possible we can

2 call a session of the Assembly for the 18th of June, 1992, which is a

3 Thursday."

4 So let me help you out here and tell you that Mr. Starcevic had

5 to call for a session, not to have to wait for the regular session,

6 because the work of the Serbian Democratic Party was put on ice, and he

7 didn't know what to do with respect to this question of moving out. So

8 can you see this document?

9 A. Yes, I can.

10 Q. So Mr. Starcevic wrote this as a reaction to the state organs on

11 the basis of his meeting with you, or rather, the representatives of the

12 Muslim community and the demands they made. So he is calling for an

13 institutional solution to this question; is that right?

14 A. Well, I can see the document. This is the first time that I'm

15 looking at it. I've never seen it before. I know that we did not ask to

16 move out. We asked to be provided safety and security in remaining in

17 Pale municipality.

18 Q. However, in the meantime, Mr. Crncalo, after all these critical

19 events, you asked - and we have the document - you asked that you be

20 allowed to dislocate, to move to another area. You're right there. And

21 I'd like to make the difference under our law. A place of residence is

22 something permanent and "boravak" is temporary residence. So Mr. Crncalo

23 is right. They asked for a temporary change of residence because they

24 did not get a permanent change of residence.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender 1D833 now,

Page 1261

1 please.

2 MR. GAYNOR: No objection.

3 JUDGE KWON: Just -- what is your answer, Mr. Crncalo?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We asked to be allowed to stay in

5 Pale in our houses, to continue living where we had always lived, but we

6 were told that we couldn't remain. At the last meeting, we were told

7 that we couldn't stay in our houses.

8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

9 Exhibit number?

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D30.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I'd like to remind you of 1D832, where we -- you were granted the

13 request to move out and relocate [as interpreted]. So that's not right

14 what you're saying.

15 A. It's a pity that the meeting wasn't filmed, the meeting attended

16 by the late Nikola Koljevic, then you'd be able to see whether that was

17 so or not. And I wasn't alone there.

18 I'd like to tell you to bring all the people in -- if you were to

19 bring all the people in the courtroom that were there, they would all say

20 the same thing that I'm telling you now, if you were to bring them in

21 from the streets and bring them into court.

22 Q. I'd like to make an intervention to the transcript on page 77,

23 line 7, [In English] "You were granted the request to

24 move," [Interpretation] No, no, that's a mistake there. You were told

25 that there was no need for you to move out. Your request was to move

Page 1262

1 out, but the document states that you were not permitted to do so but

2 were encouraged to stay, to remain, and that was on the 11th of April.

3 A. I survived all these events, the events that you're talking about

4 now, and you cannot persuade me and convince me that we left voluntarily.

5 You'll understand me. What did we take with us? We took only what we

6 could carry in our two hands, that's all. Nobody asked us, What's going

7 to happen to your homes, to your houses, to your cars?

8 All you could do was take what you could carry with you, so we

9 were almost bare-handed, homeless, penniless.

10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, let's move on. I think we dealt with

11 this issue when you were putting that document to the witness. Let's

12 move on to the next issue.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I have 1D834 now, please.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. And in the meantime, I'd like to remind you, Mr. Crncalo, of

16 paragraph 67 of your own amalgamated statement where you say:

17 [In English] "A number of times we did talk to the chief of

18 police and the president of municipality. When the first convoy left

19 towards Sarajevo, a day or two afterwards, we went to see the

20 municipality president and ask him again what had happened to those

21 people, why did those people have to leave that have you done -- what

22 have you done to the people. And I said," [Interpretation] And you're

23 quoting, [In English] "They must have infringed upon the law, in some way

24 done something unlawful."

25 [Interpretation] So that's what you said. Now I'd like to draw

Page 1263

1 your attention to the next document, 1D834, which is on our screens. We

2 saw that on the 12th of June, the president informed the people that they

3 could call -- convene a meeting in six days' time, and these are the

4 minutes from that session of the Municipal Assembly of Pale. If we look

5 at paragraph 3 it says that:

6 "The session was chaired by the president of the Pale Municipal

7 Assembly Radislav Starcevic."

8 And then going down the page:

9 "Before moving on to the proposed agenda, the member of the Pale

10 Municipal Assembly and others present observed a minute of silence in

11 honour of the memory of the Pale soldiers who had died at Zepa."

12 And then we have the agenda, the first item was the security

13 situation in the municipality and then sub-items. Item number 2 was to

14 take a stand -- that the municipality should take a stand on the moving

15 out of non-Serbs from the territory of Pale municipality. Then let's

16 move on to the next page. Item 1, the security situation and a report

17 from the brigade command. Paragraph 2, it says:

18 "Objections from soldiers who fled from Sarajevo with their

19 families, they claim that they're being treated as second-rate citizens.

20 So they fled Sarajevo, left their lovely flats, left with nothing, were

21 placed in units, and then that they were being treated as second-class

22 citizens."

23 So they have the same impression that you had, but, of course,

24 the municipality couldn't resolve the question and the situation?

25 A. Well, I don't know how they felt. I know how I felt and what it

Page 1264

1 was like for me.

2 Q. But you can see it was difficult for the Serbs of Sarajevo as

3 well.

4 And now let's move on to item 7, the penultimate page. Item 7,

5 please. Item 7 of the agenda, the conclusion is that:

6 "In these war time conditions, all forms of crime should be

7 prevented as well as war time profiteering and that the public security

8 station of Pale should be engaged and the municipal authority of

9 inspection."

10 So that was item -- or the seventh conclusion under item 1, in

11 actual fact. Now we come to item 2, and this relates to the question of

12 relocation:

13 "Linked to the problem of moving out of the territory of the

14 municipality, the Muslims, opinions were divided on the issue with

15 respect to the manner in which it was being done and the justifications

16 for it.

17 "Assemblyman Obrad Kljajic considered that the government should

18 first pass a decision on the issue and that the municipalities should

19 then act in accordance with the decision made.

20 "Arsen Jugovic was of the opinion that all those who had found an

21 exchange and signed exchange contracts should be allowed to leave.

22 "Moving out with the help of UNPROFOR and exchanges were also

23 stated as a possibility.

24 "Milorad Gazivoda gave a constructive proposal and said that this

25 process of moving out should be done on a voluntary basis.

Page 1265

1 "The president of the Assembly and the chairman of the executive

2 committee objected to the activities of the public security station in

3 this respect because it had participated in an attempt to organise the

4 Muslims and move them out which was done without a political decision

5 having been taken which meant that the official structures of power and

6 authority had been bypassed. So for this reason, the attempt was

7 prevented and stopped.

8 "To avoid going into an overly broad discussion, the Assembly

9 decided that a commission formulate the proposal on the mode of

10 evacuation of Muslim or Croat population underlying the principle of

11 voluntariness and organised manner of moving out.

12 "This working group is to be nominated."

13 MR. GAYNOR: Can I just interrupt for a moment.

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

15 MR. GAYNOR: We have absolutely no objection to this document

16 coming in. Your Honours can read it in your own time. There's only 30

17 minutes left in this session. I'm just slightly concerned about

18 conducting some re-direct of the witness and permitting him to leave

19 today.

20 JUDGE KWON: Fully understood.

21 Mr. Karadzic, as I said to you, put your question. We can read

22 this document. Just put the crux of your question, and I would like you

23 to conclude your cross-examination in 15 minutes.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I was reckoning

25 until a quarter to 2.00.

Page 1266

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Crncalo, there was one attempt the authorities stopped, and I

3 tried to deal with this by decisions of the proper authorities. Just

4 tell me, did you know about this or not?

5 A. I didn't know about this. I knew about other things.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this document, 1D834. And

8 can I now call up 1D835 to speed things up a bit.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So you don't have to come again.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D31.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I will explain while we're waiting. This is a decision of the

15 next day, 19 June, where the president of the municipality,

16 Radislav Starcevic follows up on the Assembly decision and formulates his

17 own decision. It is called decision on the mode of relocation of

18 citizens of Muslim and Croatian ethnicity. This is relocation, not a

19 change of residence and not evacuation or moving out. It says -- let me

20 now read:

21 "The citizens of Muslim and Croatian ethnicity who wish to

22 change," et cetera, et cetera. Did you know about this?

23 A. But what do you call moving out? To us it meant deportation,

24 expulsion of people from their homes.

25 Q. If you make statements like this, I'll ask for you to stay

Page 1267

1 another week.

2 A. Let it be a year, if need be.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot just skip over the

4 following documents, Your Excellencies. Let us move on to the protection

5 of property and what happened to the property left behind by Muslims at

6 Pale. There are so many things that are left untackled with this

7 witness. I can't leave it at that. Can I tender --

8 JUDGE KWON: What's the exhibit number for 835?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D32.

10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call 1D844, and

12 it's also Prosecution document P11231.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. While we're waiting, under 775, dated 2 July 1992, we read:

15 "Contract: Sulejman Crncalo and Taib Crncalo give their house in

16 Pale in," such and such a street, "to Dragica Subotic," such and such a

17 street. Do you dispute that this is yours?

18 A. Yes. I'm not disputing it, I signed this, but under duress.

19 Q. We'll have to clarify every detail then. 1D845, please.

20 Mr. Crncalo, this is the contract about this temporary exchange

21 of properties, and it's temporary because the government banned any trade

22 in real estate for the duration of the war and it did so in April. The

23 government banned this trade temporarily because it couldn't have been

24 honest. This is written on a typewriter.

25 "Sulejman and Taib Crncalo," the original is unclear, the English

Page 1268

1 is better, "exchange a residential house and auxiliary buildings and

2 accompanying land with Dragica Subotic."

3 Article 4:

4 "The contracting parties hereby undertake that the use and

5 safe-keeping of the property on the contract shall be temporary and last

6 until the end of the war until the conditions for normal life are

7 restored, at which time the final status of the property and the contract

8 shall be resolved by agreement with the mandatory consent of the

9 contracting parties."

10 And 5:

11 "The contracting parties shall take possession of the contracted

12 property and undertake to maintain them in their current condition and

13 all necessary obligations must be settled before a final agreement."

14 This was a contract typed for you and signed by your brother Taib

15 and even you. We have your signature here. And it was signed by

16 Dragica Subotic. She signed in Cyrillic script, you signed in Latinic

17 script. So there was no coercion, nor was it a permanent exchange. On

18 the basis of this contract, after the war, you could, at any time say,

19 Give me back my property.

20 A. Anyone who refused to sign such a contract had to hand in their

21 keys to their house to the police station.

22 Q. Tell me one example.

23 A. Well, that's the information that circulated among the people.

24 Q. Who produced this information?

25 A. Well, I told you about the activists who went from house to

Page 1269

1 house, Jovan Skobo and Kojic, Radomir, you denied it when I said it at

2 the time.

3 Q. We have evidence about that as well. You are dealing with the

4 state authority here, a state authority verifying your contract. And you

5 can see that they're not even letting you exchange the property because

6 the government had banned sale of real estate for the duration of the

7 war. This copy of the contract which is also available to the

8 Prosecution is hereby tendered, 1D845.

9 JUDGE KWON: Previous document is number what, Mr. --

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, Exhibit D33.

11 JUDGE KWON: And this contract is ...

12 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, the contract is D33 and the previous

13 Exhibit was P735.

14 JUDGE KWON: So the 844 is exhibit number what? We didn't deal

15 with it when we ...

16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17 JUDGE KWON: I take it he's tendering that as well and the

18 witness confirmed. That is D33 and then this contract will be D34 then.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's correct. With

21 the proviso that this excerpt from the municipal register was recognised

22 by the witness and the Prosecution also has it as an exhibit.

23 Now I'd like to call up 1D834, and I won't be tendering it. For

24 the time being, I just want to show the contract of the other contracting

25 party on the same transaction. It's actually number 843.

Page 1270

1 MR. GAYNOR: I can already indicate that we object to this

2 statement. It doesn't comply with 92 bis or 92 ter.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not intend to offer it for

4 admission. I just want to confront Mr. Crncalo with the testimony of the

5 other contracting party. If necessary, we will tender this statement

6 according to appropriate procedure.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Page 2, you can see that this is the statement of Miro Subotic.

9 His father's name is Milanko, and he's the son of the Dragica Subotic

10 with whom you had made that agreement. He says here, after his personal

11 details, that they had a family house in Pofalici which they abandoned

12 after the attack of Muslim armed forces on Pofalici in May 1992:

13 "After being expelled from our own home, we fled to Pale using

14 byroads and tracks via Zuc and Rajlovac."

15 You know that over 350 Serbs were killed on that occasion in

16 Pofalici. I don't want your response:

17 "In Pale, we found accommodation in a weekend cottage owned by

18 our family, who had also fled from their homes in Sarajevo.

19 "We stayed there for about a month because my mother Dragica

20 found out that exchanges were possible then between local population and

21 those who had fled from Sarajevo. Muslims tended to view Sarajevo as an

22 ideal, like Serbs view Belgrade."

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused slow down, please, when

24 reading especially.

25 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters were not able to interpret what you

Page 1271

1 said. Slow down and starting from the part: "My mother met Taib

2 Crncalo ..."

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. But you have to believe

4 me, I can't leave anything unclear and we are very pressed for time.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. "The next day, together with my mother, I came to Taib who was

7 accompanied by his brother Sulejman, and there on the spot we agreed to

8 swap houses. The same day we went to the building of the Municipal

9 Assembly of Pale and there we made and signed an agreement on exchange.

10 This was on 2nd July 1992. It was very crowded in the municipal building

11 on that day because many citizens were drafting and having verified

12 similar contracts on property exchange. The house that we temporarily

13 received for use was on 1316 Muslim Brigade street and was owned by

14 brothers Taib and Sulejman Crncalo from Pale.

15 "The signed contract obligated both parties to take of the

16 properties which can clearly be seen from the original contract on

17 exchange that I have attached thereto.

18 "The brothers Taib and Sulejman, together with a large number of

19 their countrymen, left Pale in an organised fashion in a bus convoy,

20 probably on the same day. They all left voluntarily at their own request

21 and without suffering any mistreatment.

22 "I personally helped Taib and Sulejman carry their things to the

23 bus. We parted on friendly terms and Sulejman's allegations which you

24 have confronted me with that someone threatened them and forced them out

25 of their house are not true."

Page 1272

1 I have read this because this is not going to be tendered now:

2 "My brother and I with our families lived in the house together

3 with our mother in this -- during the war. After the war" --

4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I think you are able to put a question

5 now to the witness whether he confirms or knows about the events.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did Miro Subotic help you carry your luggage to the bus?

8 A. I don't know if he helped my late brother. He didn't help me,

9 certainly. But he wasn't there, he wasn't present when we signed this

10 contract on exchange. He didn't even accompany us on the way.

11 Q. The interpretation is not correct.

12 It's true that -- didn't you say he helped your brother?

13 A. I said I didn't see whether he helped my brother, but he

14 certainly didn't help me.

15 Q. But the first time his mother was without him. On the next day

16 he came to you and Taib. So we are both right. The first time he wasn't

17 there, the second time he was?

18 A. We can't both be right.

19 Q. There were two meetings?

20 A. With my late brother and Dragica, I went to the municipal

21 building. He was there, but still he didn't sign anything. His mother

22 signed.

23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Crncalo, a paragraph which the accused omitted

24 reading reads like this:

25 "My mother met Taib Crncalo in front of his house in the part of

Page 1273

1 Pale that was predominantly inhabited by Muslims with the help of some

2 acquaints from Sarajevo who had already exchanged their homes. There

3 she," his mother, "she reached a verbal agreement with Taib regarding the

4 exchange of property. This house was owned by Taib and Sulejman"; is it

5 correct?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

8 Conclude your cross-examination in five minutes.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Crncalo, there was no police present. You were alone all the

11 time. There were no official authorities when you were negotiating the

12 deal?

13 A. There was police present on the road when we were moving towards

14 the buses.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Document 1D850, please.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. While we're waiting, I will describe what the document is about.

18 The municipal authorities of Pale, on the 14th of July, that's 12 days

19 after your contract, make an initiative. And it says in the conclusion:

20 "Bearing in mind that the central commission and subcommission

21 for listing and registering movable and immovable property of citizens of

22 non-Serb ethnicity who had fled the area of the municipality failed to do

23 their job in full, so there had been theft and unlawful disposal of

24 abandoned properties, the Executive Board did not accept the report of

25 the said commissions, and concluded to form an auditing commission with

Page 1274

1 the following task:

2 "To review the way property of -- non-Serb property is used

3 household by household.

4 "2. To seal all residential and auxiliary buildings which were

5 abandoned and did not change ownership by legal contract and have no one

6 responsible to prevent any damage to these buildings."

7 You can read it for yourself. I have no time. I want to

8 conclude. In the middle of the war, in the middle of the problems with

9 all the refugees and shortages and everything, the municipality is

10 unhappy with the work of the commission but forms instead an auditing

11 commission to protect non-Serb properties. What do you say to that?

12 A. I want to address the Court. Why are you reading this to me, who

13 left that municipality and my home? What kind of comment do you want

14 from me? I have no comment.

15 Q. But you dealt with the topic.

16 Now my last question. Is that right? I don't have any more

17 time? Is that right? Perhaps one more question.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Crncalo, how many Muslims lived in Pale municipality, 4 and a

20 half to 5.000?

21 A. Thirty-three per cent in percentages, according to the census

22 lists that I had a chance to see, about 5.000.

23 Q. Thank you. And how many left Sarajevo, 1.042?

24 A. Well, part of Pale municipality and Renovica and a few villages

25 in Pale municipality, that's what was left. The other people gravitating

Page 1275

1 towards Sarajevo, everybody left.

2 Q. Document 1D836 next, please. 1836 [as interpreted] is a report

3 dated the 6th of July, 1992, about checking out the place of temporary

4 residence for Muslims and Croats from the municipality in the Stari Grad

5 municipality, and you said, yourself, these are neighbouring

6 municipalities. And the conclusion was, or rather, the report said that

7 up until the third, or rather, with five buses on the 3rd of July, 324

8 citizens left and before that on the 1st of July and the 2nd of July,

9 220. The total number is 1.042 out of 5.000. So if you deduct 1.042

10 from 5.000, that means three-quarters of the Muslims stayed on in Pale

11 municipality; is that right?

12 A. No, that's not right. Your figures are not right. There

13 couldn't have been that many inhabitants in Renovica, the villages are

14 Strane, Datelj [phoen], Komrani, and that was all, those three villages

15 and the urban area of the Renovica commune.

16 Q. Well, this is a state document?

17 A. Well, then it's not a good one.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender 1D836 and call

19 up 1D842 next, please.

20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

21 I was told that the previous document used 1D844 is the one which

22 is identical to the one of the Prosecution exhibits, so there's no need

23 to admit it again. So, therefore, document 1D845 will be Exhibit D33,

24 and 1D850 will be Exhibit D34, and the current document 1D836 is

25 Exhibit -- admitted as Exhibit D35.