Page 1282
1 Wednesday, 21 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, everybody.
7 Mr. Tieger, you have a new team member.
8 MR. TIEGER: Good afternoon, Your Honour, Your Honours. We are
9 joined by Mr. Julian Nicholls to my left today, in addition to myself and
10 Mr. Reid.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger. Welcome, Mr. Nicholls.
12 If the witness could take the solemn declaration.
13 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. Before we do that, I
14 just want to let you know Peter Robinson is now appearing with
15 Dr. Karadzic. Thank you.
16 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, I missed you. Welcome, Mr. Robinson.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE KWON: So, Mr. Witness, could you take a solemn
19 declaration.
20 WITNESS: KDZ064
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please take a seat.
25 My understanding is that this witness is enjoying the protective
Page 1283
1 measures of pseudonym and face distortion, not the voice distortion. Am
2 I correct, Mr. Nicholls?
3 MR. NICHOLLS: That is correct, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE KWON: So, Mr. Witness, so you will be called by your
5 pseudonym during the course of the -- your evidence at the Tribunal, and
6 your face will not be broadcast. I understand that such situations are
7 explained to you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE KWON: And I was told that there was a preliminary matter
10 from the accused to raise, but I'm not sure whether we need to hear that
11 in the presence of the witness or not.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, good afternoon.
13 I said last time that I would like to clarify a matter, and you said that
14 we'll leave it for next time. Of course, this can be done during the
15 break before the witness comes into the courtroom next time.
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But before the witness goes ahead
18 and before I start my cross-examination, in actual fact, I'd also like to
19 ask something, raise an issue. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: Then, Mr. Nicholls, could you start, please.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:
23 Q. Good morning, sir.
24 A. Yes, good morning.
25 Q. Can you hear me okay?
Page 1284
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. As I told you before, it's going to be a little bit
3 different this time than when you testified before. We're going to put
4 in your testimony that you've given earlier, and I have to ask a few
5 questions about that before we do that.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: But first could I have the pseudonym sheet. It
7 should not be broadcast. This is 65 ter number 90178.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, if you can just look at the name on that
9 piece of paper on the screen in front of you, read it to yourself
10 quietly, and just could you confirm that your name is written there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. Thank you. I'm done with that.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: If that could be admitted under seal, please.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that can be Exhibit P767, under
16 seal.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 MR. NICHOLLS:
19 Q. All right. Sir, let me just ask you these questions about your
20 earlier testimony so we can put those statements in.
21 Can you please confirm to the Trial Chamber that you listened to
22 the audio recordings of your entire testimony in the Popovic case, and
23 you also listened to the -- your testimony in the Slobodan Milosevic
24 case, including the entire cross-examination by Mr. Milosevic.
25 A. Yes.
Page 1285
1 Q. Thank you. And could you also confirm for the Trial Chamber that
2 if you were asked the same questions today -- sorry. Let me go back.
3 And can you confirm that when you listened to those audio recordings they
4 were an accurate record of your testimony?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. And if you were asked the same questions today as in
7 those prior testimony, would your answers be the same? Could you confirm
8 that? With the exception of some additional clarifying information about
9 one of your brothers that we'll -- we'll get to soon?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, now I'd like to admit - I think this
13 is the way we're doing it - the statement which is 65 ter 90112, which
14 would be under seal because that contains the complete testimony
15 including private session, and we have a public version which is 90112A.
16 JUDGE KWON: You meant to tender them.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE KWON: Just one clarifying question. When there are
19 several transcripts, the Chamber order was for you to produce just one
20 transcript. Otherwise, an amalgamated statement. So technically, this
21 practice is in breach of that order, and then that's the first question.
22 And the second question is why only the part of that cross-examination?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll explain that, Your Honour. I did not intend
24 to breach the order.
25 The -- this is essentially an amalgamated statement. The purpose
Page 1286
1 of including simply part of the cross-examination from the Milosevic case
2 was because that was an area that the witness was cross-examined on more
3 extensively and more -- and more -- in a more lengthy and perhaps
4 comprehensive manner than was in the Popovic cross-examination. So there
5 is very little overlapping evidence in those two transcripts.
6 Mr. Milosevic, in his cross-examination, concentrated primarily
7 on a different area, and that's why I've included just his
8 cross-examination and not the cross-examination by others in the
9 Milosevic case.
10 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any observation, Mr. Karadzic or
11 Mr. Robinson?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Defence believes that this is a
13 very important part, and as you'll see in due course, the Defence will be
14 focusing precisely on that part, although this is all cumulative. But in
15 any case, I have to devote most of my time to that particular portion,
16 and later on I'll be sending the Trial Chamber a kind request asking them
17 for certain changes with respect to the other part that this witness is
18 going to deal with, because the cross-examination will focus mostly on
19 that portion.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, if I may quickly --
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: That is why -- I thought that might be the case,
24 that Mr. Karadzic would think that area was important, and that's why it
25 was included as well as the Popovic testimony.
Page 1287
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: Those will be admitted as one amalgamated statement.
4 Mr. Doraiswamy.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter 90112 will be
6 Exhibit P768, under seal, and 90112A will be Exhibit P769.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 Mr. Nicholls.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll now read a short
10 summary of the witness's evidence.
11 The witness was born in Zvornik municipality and grew up there.
12 At the beginning of March 1993, he and his family were forced from
13 Kamenica by Bosnian Serb forces. At this time, his wife and children
14 fled to Tuzla
15 Polje for six days.
16 Serb forces in Tumace then opened fire on Konjevic Polje and the
17 witness fled to Pervane. He stayed in Pervane for two days before
18 leaving for Srebrenica with his two brothers, and they remained in
19 Srebrenica until the fall of the enclave on 11 July 1995.
20 The days before 11 July were rife with panic, in the witness's
21 words, for the population of the Srebrenica enclave. On 11 July, in the
22 face of the Bosnian Serb advance on the enclave, the entire population of
23 Srebrenica fled. Some went to Potocari, others to the woods. The
24 witness and one of his brothers assembled with thousands of other Muslim
25 men in the nearby village of Susnjari
Page 1288
1 Another brother who had a disability, was an invalid, chose to go to
2 Potocari. This brother managed to cross to Muslim-held territory.
3 The witness spent the night of 11 July in Susnjari along with
4 approximately 15.000 to 20.000 other Muslim men, according to his
5 estimate.
6 On 12 July, the group of Muslim men set off from Susnjari in a
7 long column heading towards Tuzla
8 armed Muslim men in the column, mostly toward the front of the column,
9 and later that afternoon the witness was in the last group of the column
10 to leave with his brother. He and his brother were not armed.
11 He spent the night of 12 to 13 July in the woods with others from
12 the column. On 13 July, the next day, Bosnian Serb soldiers with
13 megaphones called on the people in the column in the woods to surrender.
14 Around this time the witness saw two Muslim men commit suicide, one with
15 a grenade. The other shot himself in the head.
16 That afternoon at around 1500 hours, he and many others decided
17 to surrender to Serb soldiers who were calling them. These prisoners,
18 approximately a thousand of them, over a thousand of them, according to
19 the witness's estimate, were lined up in rows in a large group in a
20 meadow in Sandici next to the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. There were
21 also some women, girls, and boys present amongst the prisoners at Sandici
22 meadow.
23 About a dozen boys under 15 and some women and girls were
24 permitted to get onto buses carrying Muslim women and children from
25 Srebrenica which were passing by on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road
Page 1289
1 taking these people from Potocari. That afternoon, General Mladic came
2 to Sandici meadow and he addressed the prisoners, promising them that
3 they would be exchanged. And the prisoners applauded General Mladic when
4 he said that. Later that evening, a large number of trucks and buses
5 arrived at Sandici. The prisoners boarded those buses and trucks and
6 were taken away to Bratunac.
7 He spent the night, the witness spent the night, 13 to 14 July,
8 in Bratunac inside the truck he'd been placed on, parked outside
9 buildings of Vihor garages. During the night some prisoners were taken
10 off of these parked trucks. Soldiers would shout out for prisoners from
11 certain villages, and those who answered were taken off the trucks. The
12 witness could hear sounds of beating, screams, shots being fired, and
13 these prisoners were not seen again and were not returned to the trucks.
14 The witness himself did not see any prisoners being shot from inside of
15 his truck, but this is what he heard around him.
16 The next day, 14 July, the trucks and buses left Bratunac in a
17 long convoy, 20 to 30 vehicles the witness saw, and headed north towards
18 Zvornik via Konjevic Polje. In Divic, a village just south of Zvornik,
19 the witness saw a white UN APC
20 Karakaj, north of Zvornik, and then turned left in the general direction
21 of Tuzla
22 to Tuzla
23 buses went to Orahovac and stopped at the elementary school there. The
24 UN APC
25 had actually been captured by Bosnian Serb soldiers.
Page 1290
1 The witness and hundreds and hundreds of other Muslim men, along
2 with four young children aged approximately 10 to 14, placed in the gym
3 of the elementary school at Orahovac and kept there as the gym kept
4 filling up with prisoners. He and the other prisoners were forced to
5 leave some of their clothing in a large pile on the way to the gym. The
6 witness was told to take off his jacket and leave it there. Other men
7 were told to take off their shirts --
8 THE ACCUSED: Objection, Excellency.
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, yes.
10 THE ACCUSED: Yes, I would object, really. Of course, if --
11 if -- [Interpretation] In any case, if you want to hear this for dramatic
12 reasons, the details of this to be presented, that's fine, but it will
13 take away a lot of my time, and this is also a form of cumulative
14 testimony in view of the fact that in the previous --
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic. This is unacceptable. This is a
16 summary of the witness's evidence on the part of the Prosecution for the
17 benefit of you and the public, and the Chamber as well. This is not part
18 of evidence. You will be given ample opportunity to cross-examine this
19 witness, so I would like you not to interrupt this, giving the summary of
20 the evidence by the Prosecution. You can cross-examine the witness later
21 on.
22 Mr. Nicholls, please go on.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
24 The gym was packed and the witness and the other prisoners had to
25 sit closely packed together as it became full. It was very hot that --
Page 1291
1 on 14 July, and the prisoners were given some water but not nearly enough
2 water for everybody, and they were very thirsty.
3 From the time of his detention in Sandici meadow and up until his
4 eventual escape, the witness was given some water on different occasions
5 but no food. And the witness observed that none of the other prisoners
6 were given food and none of the ill or wounded were given medical care.
7 Also, the witness observed that at no time were the prisoners registered,
8 listed, or counted by their captors.
9 They remained in the Orahovac school for a few hours and
10 sometimes the guards would fire shots into the walls and ceiling to keep
11 the prisoners quiet. Some officers arrived at the school and the
12 prisoners were ordered to stand up in rows and face one end of the gym,
13 and it was about this time that one of the prisoners objected and said
14 that these men should not be killed. Guards took this prisoner outside
15 and a shot was fired that the witness heard, and the man did not come
16 back. Then another prisoner was taken out and again a shot was heard.
17 Again, the prisoner did not come back.
18 Once the officers left, the soldiers began taking prisoners in
19 groups through a small room next to the gym where they were given a cup
20 of water by a female soldier, blindfolded, taken outside and placed in
21 TAM
22 could fit in the back of one of these TAM trucks.
23 Prisoners were told that they were being taken to a camp in
24 Bijeljina as they got on the trucks. However, the trucks drove just a
25 very short distance to a field in Orahovac and the prisoners were told
Page 1292
1 then to get off the trucks. The men were lined up in rows and shot. The
2 witness managed to survive by feigning death as he lay under the body of
3 another victim. And the witness observed that approximately every
4 10 to 15 minutes a new truck full of prisoners would arrive, and those
5 prisoners would be killed in the same manner.
6 These killings continued for hours. After nightfall, a loader
7 truck arrived with its lights on, and as it continued, the witness lay
8 still and heard some of the executioners speaking and calling to one
9 another, and they called their leader by name. The witness recognised
10 the first name and the distinctive voice of this leader of the
11 executioners as a long-time co-worker who he knew was from the village of
12 Orahovac. The leader told the other soldiers to collect ammunition and
13 go to a nearby field to continue killing people. The soldiers then left
14 and continued killing prisoners at a nearby field.
15 Later that night while the soldiers were distracted, the witness
16 was able to escape into the woods. As he ran away, he got turned around
17 at one point and found himself back at the killing site, and he saw that
18 most of the field was covered in bodies. He also noticed that not all of
19 the prisoners were dead. He could hear sounds coming from a wounded man.
20 After several very difficult days of -- as he describes it, of
21 moving and hiding, he managed to reach safety in Muslim-held territory.
22 That's the end of the summary.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 MR. NICHOLLS:
25 Q. Now, sir, I have just very few questions for you, okay?
Page 1293
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go into private session just for a short
2 background question.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 [Private session]
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
19 MR. NICHOLLS:
20 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to ask you now just a -- a few questions
21 about the events of 11 July 1995
22 two brothers at that time.
23 Now, first of all, you've testified that it was on 11 July that
24 you and your brothers, and in fact the entire population, left
25 Srebrenica. Could you tell the Chamber why was it that you decided to
Page 1294
1 leave Srebrenica that day? Why did you leave?
2 A. Well, we had to leave because the Serb forces threatened us,
3 especially Radovan Karadzic. One year previously he said he would take
4 his revenge on the citizens of Srebrenica.
5 Q. Well, what were you concerned about would happen if you'd stayed,
6 if you hadn't left 11 July? Why exactly did you leave?
7 A. Well, we left because we were frightened, and the thing that we
8 were frightened of happened to us en route.
9 Q. Now, without saying his name, one of your brothers, you
10 testified, went to Potocari and managed to leave safely. Can you just
11 tell us very briefly how he managed to accomplish that, what he told you
12 about how he was able to leave Potocari?
13 A. Well, when he reached Potocari, they had already begun separating
14 people, and a Serb soldier told him to jump up on the truck, and he
15 had -- he couldn't do that because he had crutches. And then another one
16 told him to get into another bus, and he got into that and that's how he
17 managed to leave.
18 Q. All right.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Now, Your Honours, if I may go into private
20 session just for a couple questions.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 [Private session]
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 1295
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
Page 1296
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 MR. NICHOLLS:
3 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions at this time for
4 you.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: And, Your Honours, I think if I understood your
7 ruling before correctly, now is when I would tender the exhibits I have
8 not shown the witness but that formed part of his testimony in the
9 Popovic case.
10 JUDGE KWON: I understand that those lists were provided to the
11 accused.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.
13 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any objections, Mr. Karadzic,
14 Mr. Robinson? Who is going to deal with the objections?
15 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. In your order you indicated
16 that I would only intervene at the request of Mr. Karadzic. So he will
17 be dealing with all of them unless he requests otherwise.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you. We don't have any objection,
20 Mr. President.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you. The Chamber also had the
22 opportunity to go through the list, and then all of them are relevant and
23 of probative value, and we find that all of them form indispensable and
24 inseparable part of the evidence. As such we admit them all.
25 Could we give the -- there are five items. We can give the
Page 1297
1 exhibit number right now.
2 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 02869 will be Exhibit P770;
3 65 ter number 21964 will be Exhibit P771; 65 ter number 2870 will be
4 Exhibit P772; 65 ter number 02872 will be Exhibit P773; and 65 ter number
5 02875 will be Exhibit P774.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, there is one more, which is not as
8 important. It's 65 ter number 21965. That was simply the pseudonym
9 sheet in the prior testimony. It forms part of the record.
10 JUDGE KWON: 21965.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.
12 JUDGE KWON: But hasn't been assigned a separate number yet.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P775,
14 under seal.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Now, Mr. Karadzic, it's for you to
16 cross-examine this witness, but please bear in mind that this witness's
17 identity is protected. Whenever there's a danger of revealing the
18 identity of the witness, you should ask to go into private session. Do
19 you understand?
20 With that caveat, let's start.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I
22 would just like to say one thing before I start with my cross-examination
23 and also draw your attention to what Madam Uertz-Retzlaff said at a
24 Status Conference of the 17th of August, 2009. This is on page 156,
25 where she said --
Page 1298
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, instead of giving submissions, I would
2 like you to start your questioning. Just put your questions to the
3 witness. Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All I wanted to say was that the
5 Srebrenica part as it relates to 95 was something that we're a little
6 surprised by. We thought we would be dealing with that later, but that's
7 all I wanted to say.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. You have provided five statements so far?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You participated in two reports, and you testified four times.
14 A. Five times.
15 Q. Five times.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. So could we say -- of course this was strenuous, but
18 could we say that you were a successful witness and that perhaps you're
19 even proud of your achievement?
20 A. Yes, I am a successful witness, but let me tell you the truth.
21 It's not my desire to be a successful witness and to speak lies.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you live now where you used to live before?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You live in the federation?
25 A. No.
Page 1299
1 Q. You don't live in Republika Srpska?
2 A. No.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Objection.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Now I would like to know, Witness --
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, twofold. One, going into an inquiry in
8 public session of where a protected witness lives is heading for trouble;
9 and two, it's irrelevant.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's move on.
11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, one cautionary note. I can see it
12 coming, and that is the pace of the question and answer and the need for
13 a pause between question and answer when the witnesses are speaking the
14 same language.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for your warning.
16 Let's proceed.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would rather say that
18 I asked him where he did not live instead of where he does live, but
19 anyway.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Witness, what I'm interested in is this: Why did you seek
22 protective measures if you are a successful witness -- I don't want to
23 say that you're a favourite witness of the Prosecution, because they
24 don't like that, but why did you do such a big job?
25 A. Well, you know why. Because there are people who share your
Page 1300
1 beliefs, who would like to get rid of me. So I don't want everybody to
2 know where I live for that reason. I'm speaking, and I do not wish to
3 say one more word more than is absolutely necessary.
4 Q. Witness, do you know any witnesses who my supporters executed?
5 A. I don't know, but I'm afraid for myself. I'm not really
6 interested too much about others. I'm only speaking about myself.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I object to this whole line of why
8 the witness has sought protective measures. He's had them granted in
9 several -- in all the prior case because the Trial Chambers in those
10 cases have found that they were justified.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I let it go because to a certain extent you may
12 ask some questions, but let's move on your topic. But before we go -- go
13 any further, sir, could you bear in mind the interpreters who are
14 interpreting your questions and answers. So could you wait a little bit,
15 put a pause after the question and --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.
17 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on to your topic, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You lived and worked in Belgrade
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How often did you go back to your birthplace?
24 A. I would go back every week or every other week depending on when
25 I had my Saturdays free. That's when I would go.
Page 1301
1 Q. And you would spend a weekend there; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you see your compatriots in Belgrade?
4 A. What do you mean "compatriots"? Who are my compatriots, Serbs or
5 Croats? We were all compatriots, Bosniaks, Croats.
6 Q. I'm thinking of Bosniaks with the same surname as yours.
7 A. Well, there are people with my surname all over Bosnia
8 Herzegovina
9 Q. Well, we are going to show this later on the screen, exactly what
10 I'm thinking of, but tell me, did you follow the events in Bosnia
11 Belgrade
12 A. I came only when the war was beginning in Bijeljina. The war
13 hadn't started in other places yet.
14 Q. Thank you. You came on the 3rd of April; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Why did you come?
17 A. Well, it was the Bajram holiday then.
18 Q. Right. And did you know about the political events and the
19 tensions and the course of events in Bosnia
20 from Belgrade
21 A. Well, no, we didn't really know all that much in Belgrade.
22 Q. You didn't come to defend your village, did you?
23 A. It was Bajram. And to tell you the truth, it was -- I do have
24 the right to defend my village. Every citizen has the right to defend
25 his village and his country, Mr. Karadzic. A Serb, a Croat, a Gypsy,
Page 1302
1 they're all duty-bound to defend Bosnia and Herzegovina and not to
2 ethnically cleanse it of one people.
3 Q. Thank you. And who would you defend Kamenica from?
4 A. From whoever attacked it, whether it was a Muslim, Croat, a Serb.
5 You defend your country from any enemy.
6 JUDGE KWON: Sir, I understand how you feel, but could you calm
7 down a bit, and if you need some time, you can take a rest.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not a problem about a rest.
9 It's a matter of the question. One would defend one's country from any
10 attack, regardless of ethnicity. Fikret Abdic was a Bosniak and our
11 people had to defend themselves from them because he was killing his own
12 people. Whoever attacks the country should be somebody to defend oneself
13 from.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.
17 Please understand the Defence is entitled to ask you questions.
18 So try to answer as far as you can. Just -- if you don't know, you can
19 say you don't know, but --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that that is
21 the answer. You defend your country from the enemy, whether it's an
22 enemy from within or from outside. That is irrelevant.
23 JUDGE KWON: And one further request is for the benefit of the
24 Chamber and the interpreters, just wait a little bit after the question
25 before you start your answer.
Page 1303
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. All right.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's proceed.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Witness, sir, do you know that according to the Cutileiro Plan,
5 your area was supposed to be part of the Muslim entity? It was supposed
6 to be a Muslim canton?
7 A. I don't know that. If anybody among the politicians knew that,
8 that's all right, but don't ask me that. I'm not a politician.
9 Q. But do you believe that your politicians knew that, because they
10 accepted that agreement?
11 A. I don't know. I don't think that they did, but I don't know. I
12 really couldn't say anything about that.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please look at Cutileiro's
14 map now. If it's not in e-court, perhaps we can look at it on the ELMO.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, if you are going to show on the map
16 the region where the witness is from, we need to go into private session,
17 in my opinion.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I think that
19 Cutileiro's map is something that we're all familiar with. It's a
20 generally known matter. This is 1D883. 00883; is that right? It
21 doesn't have to be shown to the public.
22 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness
24 what the map looks like.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Please don't show it to
Page 1304
1 me. You don't have to show it to me. I don't accept that.
2 JUDGE KWON: I think we have the map before us on the monitor.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't accept that at all. If
4 this is something that you divided together with Cutileiro, we did not
5 participate in that.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness, can you tell us where your hometown is here?
8 A. Well, my hometown is the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I
9 don't need you to draw any maps. There are these things that Cutileiro
10 sketched out and you are sticking to that without yielding.
11 Q. Sir, we're not the only people in Bosnia and Herzegovina
12 Is Rastosnica yours?
13 A. Well, Rastosnica is everybody's. If it's a Muslim village, it's
14 a Muslim village; if it's a Serb village, it's a Serb village. Nobody
15 took any villages from anybody. You wanted to drive us out of Bosnia
16 Herzegovina
17 to have us in Bosnia and Herzegovina any longer. Well, you don't need to
18 go on about that now. Just let me be.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, please calm down. Just answer the
20 question.
21 Mr. Karadzic, what the witness is saying is that --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I lived in Bosnia
23 and Herzegovina
24 wanted to drive us out, even had -- if we had given them the whole of
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina, they wanted it to be empty of all Muslims and
Page 1305
1 Croats. They only wanted the Serbs there.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. We're going to prove the opposite, but what I'm asking you now is
4 to show us where your hometown is --
5 JUDGE KWON: No, no, no. Just stop --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know where my hometown is.
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can remove this from the
9 screen.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, I would like you and ask again to just
11 answer the question. That's the best way for you to assist the Chamber.
12 Mr. Karadzic, I don't see any point going over --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't want to look
14 at any maps. Please understand me. Karadzic can look at maps. I don't
15 need to look at maps. I don't need a map. We have a map of Bosnia
16 Herzegovina
17 interested in Republika Srpska or Herceg Bosna. All we're interested is
18 Bosnia
19 of its citizens, but Karadzic would like to have Bosnia belong to only
20 one people.
21 JUDGE KWON: Sir, as I told you, the Defence, the accused, is
22 entitled to put questions to you. So if you do not know, you can say
23 simply you don't know, but please hear me out. I was about to say
24 something to make it --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked that he doesn't show me the
Page 1306
1 map. I don't recognise the map at all. I'm not interested in the map at
2 all. If you're interested in the map, Mr. President, sir, please go
3 ahead. I will not disrupt that. If I had some sort of scarf or
4 something, I would cover the screen so I don't have to look at this map.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I don't see any point going over the
6 question of map when the witness has already said he didn't know anything
7 about Cutileiro's map. You can tender this evidence on a separate
8 occasion or through a separate proceedings. I would like you to move on
9 to the next topic, Mr. Karadzic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency, I will move
11 on. The point is, though, that his place of birth, we accepted that it
12 would not be in the Serbian canton.
13 JUDGE KWON: You'll have -- you'll have opportunity to make your
14 submission. Please concentrate on putting questions to the witness
15 instead of making submissions.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to have
17 document 65 ter 19139 on the screen. This is a Prosecution document.
18 It doesn't have to be broadcast to the public. It can just be
19 restricted to the courtroom.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Sir, is this a map of your municipality?
22 A. I'm not interested. Well, let me just see. My municipality of
23 Zvornik, I am a protected witness, but my municipality is the
24 municipality of Zvornik. I was born there. I grew up there. I lived
25 there until I was 50 or 60 years old. It cannot be yours. It can only
Page 1307
1 be my municipality. I'm sorry, I don't see which municipality this is
2 now.
3 Q. Well, it's written there for you at the top.
4 A. Yes. Yes. If it is. I mean, it is the Zvornik municipality.
5 Q. Can you indicate on the south the area which we're interested in?
6 A. I'm not interested. You were interested in everything, for God's
7 sake, not one thing. You were interested in everything. What are you
8 saying? You were interested in everything. You just wanted no Bosniaks
9 there.
10 Q. Witness, sir, you testified five times, and --
11 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, I'm sorry to interrupt you for a
12 moment.
13 The question that you must address your mind to, Mr. Witness, is
14 this, that we are the ones, the Judges, who need this information.
15 Whether you are interested or not interested is a matter for you, but
16 you've got to understand that we are interested. We need to know these
17 things in order to make a proper determination of the case. So I
18 understand that this is a difficult exercise for you, but please bear in
19 mind that this is information which we need to conduct this case fairly
20 and properly.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the entire
22 municipality of Zvornik was ethnically cleansed. It was ethnically
23 cleansed. I don't think that one single Bosniak remained to live in the
24 entire municipality of Zvornik. It's not that he was interested in one
25 or the other part of the municipality. He was interested in the whole of
Page 1308
1 the municipality, one large area, Djulici, Potocari. I have a married
2 sister there.
3 Over 700 people there submitted or handed over their weapons
4 saying, "We don't want war." They were handing over keys of their car
5 saying, "We don't want war." The Serbian Army assembled everyone, women
6 and children, in buses and trucks and sent them off to Tuzla. Over
7 700 people were executed.
8 It was not -- nothing else was in his interest other than ethnic
9 cleansing and war. He was not interested in just one part of the Zvornik
10 municipality or another part. He was interested in the entire
11 municipality.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Witness, you're a very important witness, and your testimony has
14 been incorporated into several judgments finding the accused guilty, so I
15 would like to hear your testimony, and the Prosecution can help you out,
16 but I would like the Registrar -- to ask the Registrar also to help the
17 witness use the electronic pen that he uses for the screen so that he can
18 draw on the map.
19 A. I don't know anything about this map. What do you want me to
20 tell you about this map?
21 Q. Witness, it's not my map. It's a Prosecution map, and it's a
22 geographical map, a normal one without any ethnic division.
23 A. What do you want me to mark in here?
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honours. I think it might help if we
Page 1309
1 knew exactly what -- what the question was, because I may have missed it,
2 but there hasn't been a clear question about this map and what is asked.
3 The only question was, "Can you indicate the southern area we're
4 interested in," or something, but I think maybe if there's a very clear
5 question, we can move on.
6 JUDGE KWON: Could you answer the question, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I can't, Your Excellency,
8 disclose my intentions to the Prosecution in advance. I have to take the
9 witness statements one by one. Now, he lived in this area, he worked
10 there, and important events took place there until March 1993, and more
11 important and more intensive than the other part of his testimony. So
12 this is where major events took place, and because of that, Mr. Nicholson
13 [sic] sought to introduce it into the Milosevic trial.
14 Now, I want us to establish where these places were, who lived in
15 them and what happened in them.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbs lived on the territory of
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina -- or, rather, Zvornik municipality, in their
18 villages. The Bosniaks lived in their own villages.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. That's not my question, nor is that the answer that you should be
21 giving. I would like us to focus on your testimony and the places you
22 mentioned in that testimony.
23 A. No, I don't want to have anything to do with the map. I don't
24 want to mark anything on the map. You can ask me what happened where,
25 but -- and I'll tell you, but I don't want to have anything to do with
Page 1310
1 the map.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecution instruct
3 their witness as to his duties and assist him.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't need any assistance.
5 JUDGE KWON: Sir, sir. Sir, as Judge Morrison advised you, your
6 answering the question is the best way to assist the Chamber to reach --
7 to find the facts before -- in this case, so I don't find your
8 non-cooperation very helpful. So as far as you can, please try to answer
9 the question.
10 Do you recognise where it is, that which appears before you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I don't know this map, and
12 I would have to guess. I don't want to do guesswork. I know the
13 territory, but I'm not interested in the map at all.
14 JUDGE KWON: So I take it that your answer is that you do not --
15 you cannot recognise what it is.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Anything he asks me I'll tell him,
17 but I have nothing to do with maps. Nobody every showed me a map before.
18 I don't know what he wants to achieve with this map.
19 JUDGE KWON: I think we can move on to -- to a different topic
20 apart from the map. Please move on, Mr. Karadzic.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 1311
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 A. Well, they're still living there. How should I know?
18 Q. Sir, you arrived on the 3rd of April, 1992. Do you know what
19 happened, before you left, to the Serbs living in your village?
20 A. Gone where?
21 Q. Well, before you left your village.
22 A. Well, they expelled us from their village first. Do you know
23 about that? And do you know about these 122 Serbs, they set fire to six
24 Muslims in a forge. Do you know about that? And they were neighbours.
25 They weren't people who came in from elsewhere. They were neighbours.
Page 1312
1 Q. Witness, sir, would you please focus on what I'm asking you and
2 the subject of your testimony. Do you know what happened to those Serbs
3 before the Serbs arrived in your village in March 1993, before that?
4 A. Well, what Serbs? There are quite a lot of Serbs there. What
5 Serbs?
6 Q. With all the Serbs in your village, to all the Serbs in your
7 village?
8 A. I don't know. The minority left, and the majority, well, nobody
9 touched them at all.
10 Q. Were there any Serbs --
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry to interrupt. Your Honours, just out of
13 an abundance of caution, I think we might need a redaction on page 29,
14 lines 14 to 18, because of the precise description.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's move on.
16 Please put your question again, Mr. Karadzic.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness, how many Serbs were there in your two villages when the
19 Serb army entered those villages?
20 A. When the Serb army entered those villages, there were very few
21 Serbs there, none at all.
22 Q. And where were they?
23 A. How should I know? Zvornik? I don't know where they went.
24 Q. And in the village where there were more Serbs, 301?
25 A. Well, they were all there.
Page 1313
1 Q. You say they were all there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. Thank you. You mentioned two brothers, and you had a
4 third brother as well, but you didn't mention him afterwards.
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Don't tell us his name, but could you tell us what happened to
7 him?
8 A. He was killed.
9 Q. When?
10 A. In 1992.
11 Q. Where was he killed?
12 A. In Karlovac.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the place name.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. How did he die?
16 A. He was killed by a Serb soldier.
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, could you repeat the place where your
18 brother was killed.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know what, as I'm a
20 protected witness, I -- it slipped out.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Well, you can tell us about your village. This isn't being
23 broadcast.
24 JUDGE KWON: Let me check what I said.
25 Mr. Nicholls, do we need to go into private session in order to
Page 1314
1 hear where his brother was killed?
2 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think so, Your Honour. Just for the name
3 of the -- maybe it would be best if -- I'm not sure, so maybe it would be
4 best.
5 JUDGE KWON: So let's go into private session briefly.
6 [Private session]
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, when did that happen and under what circumstances?
16 A. Are we in private session?
17 Q. Just tell me where there was fighting, and was he a sehid or,
18 rather, a fighter?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, that first brother of yours, does he have any
21 children?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Boys?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us the names of his sons?
Page 1315
1 A. No, I can't. He just has one son, just one child, a son.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, might we go into
3 private session just for a second to hear the name of the man's son.
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
5 [Private session]
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You said in your statements that your family left before you to
25 Tuzla
Page 1316
1 A. My family did leave and go to Tuzla, because -- was it on the
2 30th or 31st of January, 1993? Not a long time before me, just a
3 fortnight before or thereabouts, because we had to move.
4 Q. And where were the Serbs then in relation to your village, the
5 Serb army, I mean.
6 A. At the time, the Serbs called upon the people to move out of our
7 village, and people escorted women and children, elderly persons so that
8 more people left, and we had to withdraw and move towards Konjevic Polje
9 and so on.
10 Q. And I say, Mr. Witness, that this was a planned, organised
11 evacuation of civilians from your region and from your villages which was
12 carried out by your army, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I put that to
13 you. What you have to say to that?
14 A. No, certainly not. In 1992, the Serb army moved upon us, set
15 fire to our houses, destroyed our mosques. There were four mosques in
16 the village. And we all moved out. Our families were with us, and we
17 went to the neighbouring municipality. Just a small hamlet was left with
18 just six or seven houses, and the people remained in those households,
19 but the women and children had to be evacuated.
20 Now, after that, we had to organise ourselves to send -- to expel
21 the Serbs from our territory.
22 Q. Thank you. But would you please stick to answering my questions,
23 please.
24 You didn't leave with them, and you didn't go to Tuzla
25 A. Well, here's why: I always thought -- I was wondering what
Page 1317
1 happened to the people when the women and children were arrested. A lot
2 of young girls and women were raped, so heaven forbid that my children
3 should suffer the same fate, and I have two daughters and a son, and I
4 always wondered what would happen if my daughter was killed. I would
5 bury her and move on. God forbid that my child should be raped. And
6 that did happen. Women and mothers and girls were raped -- or, rather,
7 girls were raped before their mother's eyes. And that's why I didn't
8 dare leave. I wanted them to go, and I would await my fate.
9 Q. Wasn't it perhaps because you were necessary as a soldier, and
10 then the army evacuated over 7.000 civilians in order to be better able
11 to fight and you stayed on to fight? Wasn't that the case?
12 A. No. We had men, but we didn't have any weapons. All we had were
13 our bare chests so that others could attack us with howitzers, mortars,
14 and so on. Had we had weapons, we wouldn't have suffered the fate that
15 we did.
16 Q. But you were a soldier of the BH Army; isn't that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you have any cold weapons?
19 A. What do you mean? You mean a stick, a pole? Huh. A rifle? You
20 know what you mean by cold weapons? Well, your rifle was a cold weapon
21 if you didn't have any ammunition.
22 Q. Witness, we will put to you documents from your command. You
23 previously omitted to say that you were a soldier of the BH Army. Today
24 you have confirmed that.
25 A. I never denied that. I always said that I was a soldier. I was
Page 1318
1 a JNA soldier, and I was also the other soldier. Well, not a -- not a
2 soldier, really, because we didn't have any weapons. I had to just
3 replace a colleague and do his shift, take up a colleague's shift, that
4 kind of thing.
5 Q. In your statements it says that you were not a soldier. Then it
6 says that you were a soldier, then again that you weren't a soldier, and
7 we can see that from your various statements, and we see that you said
8 that you were a member of the Territorial Defence, although the
9 Territorial Defence, in mid-April 1992, also became a part of the
10 BH Army. Isn't that right?
11 A. While I was in my village, I was a member of the TO, the
12 Territorial Defence. Afterwards, when I went to Srebrenica, I was no
13 longer a -- I was not a soldier. That's what I meant when I said I
14 wasn't a soldier.
15 Now, when I returned to free territory again, everybody tried to
16 persuade me not to be a soldier, but I wanted to. But while that
17 discussion was going on, the war ended, so I didn't have the right to
18 become a soldier after that.
19 Q. Thank you. So you deny that your army had organised the
20 evacuation of the civilians.
21 A. No.
22 Q. You mean you don't deny it or you do?
23 A. No, what you say is not true. The people were lacking food.
24 They couldn't stay there. You know when your house is burnt, well, we
25 didn't even have one nail to take out of the ashes and use it.
Page 1319
1 In 1992, at the beginning of April, you cut our electricity
2 supply off. We had no communication with the town so we had to leave.
3 The food had been burnt in the houses that were set fire to, so the
4 people had to leave in order to find food.
5 Q. Thank you. Let me just remind you, Witness. Did you receive
6 your electricity from the Visegrad electric power plant?
7 A. No. I don't know where we got our electricity from, but I think
8 we got it from Zalukovik, which belonged to Vlasenica or wherever.
9 Q. But, sir, that whole area received electricity from Visegrad
10 through the distribution centre that went through Srebrenica, and I
11 assert that the transmission system was disabled by Oric's army in
12 Srebrenica until the end of the war and that is why you didn't have
13 electricity.
14 A. No, no. At the beginning of the war you personally ordered, I
15 don't know if it was you or the people in Zvornik or wherever, ordered
16 that our electricity be switched off. Even without any war yet starting
17 in our area we were left without electricity.
18 Q. And how exactly did I order that?
19 A. Well, of course, you were the number one person. You always go
20 to the head and ask. You never ask the feet for permission.
21 Q. Witness, if you say that I was the one who ordered that, I have
22 to get you to be more specific about that. How and when did I make that
23 order?
24 JUDGE KWON: What is your next -- let's move on to your next
25 question, Mr. Karadzic.
Page 1320
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. And this other brother of yours, was he also a soldier?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was he a cook?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who did he cook for?
7 A. He cooked for himself.
8 Q. Did he cook for the army?
9 A. No. They had an observation post in Slatina. UNPROFOR was there
10 as well. They were just observing there a little bit the movement of the
11 Serbs. The line was quite close, so he was cooking for those who were at
12 the observation post. I mean, he cooked the whole time. He was a baker
13 by trade.
14 Q. How many fighters from your village joined the unit in
15 Srebrenica?
16 A. I don't know how many joined. When we came to Srebrenica, that
17 was when the demilitarisation agreement was signed, so there was nothing
18 to join, in any case.
19 Q. If I were to say that 500 fighters joined from your village alone
20 and significantly strengthen Naser Oric's forces in Srebrenica, what
21 would you say to that?
22 A. No, definitely not. There weren't that many. There weren't that
23 many citizens from our municipality altogether.
24 Q. Your municipality.
25 A. Yes, from my municipality. I'm not talking about Srebrenica.
Page 1321
1 Srebrenica is something else.
2 Q. In your estimate, how many people, soldiers and civilians, came
3 to Srebrenica from your municipality in 1993?
4 A. As I said, I don't know how many of them came. Many of them did
5 come, but when the convoys took the women and children out, most of the
6 women and children left. All those who were left were the elderly and
7 able-bodied men.
8 Q. Thank you. I would now like to deal a little bit with what was
9 happening in your municipality -- or, rather, first of all, in your
10 village. Can we please --
11 JUDGE KWON: When we are moving to a separate topic, I'm minded
12 to take a break now. So while the -- the witness can be excused from the
13 room. Would the curtain be drawn. I would allow the accused to raise
14 what he meant to raise with the Chamber.
15 Sir, we are going to have a break for 25 minutes. We will be --
16 we will have a break for 25 minutes. We will adjourn -- we will resume
17 at 4.00. So you may be free to go, to take a rest.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I would like to draw
21 your attention to what was said at the conference of the
22 17th of September -- August, 2009. On page 156, when Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff
23 said, I'm reading from the middle:
24 "[In English] And I also can say that the Srebrenica part of the
25 case will definitely not -- will definitely be at the end of the
Page 1322
1 Prosecution case, so there is no need to have it all ready by the
2 beginning of trial."
3 [Interpretation] That is why I would kindly ask about the second
4 part of the testimony of this witness that relates to 1995. We summoned
5 the witness again when Srebrenica will be the topic. I will be ready to
6 deal with 1993, and we can complete that today, though.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, you may have a say to this.
8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I have to question whether there's any
9 genuine confusion here. I think it was apparent to everyone that that
10 was a reference to the general procedures, the general approach to the
11 case. The fact that issues -- I don't remember the precise context, but
12 if I -- my recollection is that that had to do with whether or not one
13 particular issue had to be disposed of by a particular time.
14 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff was indicating that the bulk of the Srebrenica
15 presentation would be toward the latter part of the case and that could
16 be raised then. It was anything but a reference to the evidence of this
17 particular witness, which has been noticed for a long time, and it's been
18 very clear what this witness's testimony would be. That reference at the
19 Status Conference in no way precludes the full presentation of this
20 witness's evidence or in any way prejudices the Defence.
21 JUDGE KWON: Could the Chamber be advised as to the date when it
22 was noted to the accused that this witness is coming as the third
23 witness.
24 MR. ROBINSON: It was around the 9th of October, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE KWON: Last year. Thank you very much.
Page 1323
1 We will rise. We will have a break for 25 minutes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before we leave, while the witness
3 is still out, I just wanted to mention two or three other things that you
4 promised that I would be given the opportunity to bring up.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Regarding cross-examination and
7 examination-in-chief that relates to 1995, this is already done through
8 testimony, statements, adjudicated facts, and so on, but we need to be
9 familiar with the entire Srebrenica case that relates to 1995. Since we
10 were not granted the time we asked for to prepare, and since we relied by
11 what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff said, and in view of our priorities and
12 resources, we left the section relating to Srebrenica '95 for later.
13 This is what I wanted to state briefly.
14 The demands of the courtroom are quite substantial, the pace and
15 some other factors, too, so I'm afraid the other services are not
16 actually able to follow all of that. For now I would just like to refer
17 to the matter of translation. I must say that I have engaged my entire
18 family all the way to Canada
19 the documents to be translated on time. I don't have such large
20 resources. My family's translating for me for free. I don't have enough
21 funds to pay for this service. The Tribunal services should be able to
22 keep up with this pace. And I'm doing all I can in order to make the
23 administration of international justice possible, and I'm not trying to
24 obstruct this administration in any way.
25 Should I put down in writing what I asked for last time, and that
Page 1324
1 is to ask for one more person to assist, because Mr. Tieger has as many
2 as he wants, and they change. So also do I need to write my request to
3 receive statements in Serbian? I don't receive transcripts. My
4 associates out in the field or many of them don't speak English, so this
5 would be of help to us. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: We'll come to that after the break. Twenty-five
7 minutes.
8 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
10 JUDGE KWON: During the break the Chamber was able to locate the
11 submission Madam Uertz-Retzlaff made during that Status Conference, which
12 reads like this:
13 "Perhaps one point we would appreciate a decision on the 92 bis
14 motion for the expert would be postponed to a later date until everything
15 is ready, and I also can say that Srebrenica part of the case will
16 definitely not -- will definitely be at the end of the Prosecution case,
17 so there's no need to have it all ready by the beginning of the trial."
18 That's what she said. Given this statement, I tend to agree that
19 the accused and the Chamber was always led to believe by the Prosecution
20 that it would bring the Sarajevo
21 component dealing with the municipalities, and the Srebrenica component
22 last.
23 Mr. Karadzic was told in the context of denying his request --
24 request for more preparation time that he didn't need to prepare
25 everything before the trial started, and on my part, I think it's fair
Page 1325
1 that he would have been focusing his preparation on preparing to
2 cross-examine the Sarajevo
3 witness, KDZ064, would come and talk about Srebrenica since October, he
4 would still be justified in saying that he was devoting his resources
5 preparing for Sarajevo
6 That said -- yes?
7 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I presume the Court will
8 give me an opportunity to amplify if -- before it renders any decision,
9 but I know I interrupted the Court. I misunderstood the pause to be a
10 completion.
11 JUDGE KWON: So I will continue. Thank you.
12 So that said, while it is very -- the Chamber is disappointed by
13 the practice of the Prosecution for not sticking to the -- its earlier
14 representation that Sarajevo
15 that, given that witness scheduling is a -- is not a matter of exact
16 science and there always has to be some flexibility, so the Chamber is of
17 the view that Mr. Karadzic should continue to cross-examine this witness,
18 and later on, should he find material during his further preparation to
19 address the Srebrenica component of the Prosecution case, then he can
20 always submit a reasoned application to recall this witness for further
21 cross-examination should he consider it to be necessary.
22 So with that, I would like you to continue your
23 cross-examination, including the '95 Srebrenica component of the case.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE KWON: Did you have anything to --
Page 1326
1 MR. TIEGER: I did, Your Honour. I wanted to raise another
2 issue, but if I may respond to the comments of the Court.
3 I want to stress that there was anything but an intentional
4 effort either to mislead the Court or the Defence, and I maintain that
5 the Prosecution has not departed from what it communicated to the Court,
6 and that is that the Srebrenica component would come at the latter part
7 of the case.
8 The question that arose in the context of the 65 ter was whether
9 it was necessary to deal with a particular specific issue related to the
10 Srebrenica component. At that time, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff indicated that
11 that issue would not be overcome by events because the component part of
12 the case, the bulk of the presentation of the evidence related to
13 Srebrenica, was going to -- was not going to come at the beginning of the
14 case. So that specific issue did not need to be resolved.
15 I believe that everyone present at the 65 ter conference at that
16 point understood that, and I think our noticing of the witnesses along
17 with the information presented in connection with what the witness would
18 be testifying to provided ample notice, as I indicated before. And I
19 appreciate the Court's ruling in light of that, but I need to stress this
20 is not a situation where we simply indicate we'll have a witness and
21 that's all the information provided. Virtually everything to which the
22 witness was expected to testify was provided well, well in advance.
23 The second thing is I wanted to dispatch one --
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, I'm not sure whether I understood you in
25 full. What did you mean by "the context," "in the context of the Rule
Page 1327
1 65 ter"?
2 MR. TIEGER: There was a very limited issue raised: Was it
3 necessary to deal with this expert issue now, or -- because the -- that
4 component part of the case would be over by the time it got dealt with.
5 It needed to be dealt with by the beginning of the case when -- well, by
6 the beginning of the case was the issue then. And because it relates to
7 the overall presentation of the evidence, because the Defence presumably
8 wants to deal with that issue before the component part of the case is
9 completed, that issue was raised. It has very little, if anything, to do
10 with this particular witness who is a percipient witness to the events he
11 experienced and observed.
12 So what was communicated about the order of presentation of the
13 case was related to the issue raised at the 65 ter conference at that
14 moment, and that is, was there any problem with the timing of dealing
15 with this expert issue given the -- the general order in which the case
16 would be presented, and I think it's fair to say that there was not and
17 is not.
18 JUDGE KWON: I don't --
19 MR. TIEGER: So what I'm suggesting is there was never a
20 preparation that no evidence whatsoever with relation to Srebrenica would
21 be presented prior to a date -- a particular date. It was that the case
22 would be presented in broad components, and that was the general order in
23 which it would be presented.
24 JUDGE KWON: So let me be clear. Has your plan to present the
25 Srebrenica component of evidence at the later stage been changed?
Page 1328
1 MR. TIEGER: No.
2 JUDGE KWON: And still -- but still you are minded to introduce
3 some of the components of the Srebrenica case in the early stage?
4 MR. TIEGER: As we indicated in the pre-trial brief and in the
5 opening statement, there's clearly a relationship between all components
6 of the case. Therefore, we are providing the Court at the outset of the
7 case with evidence concerning all the components, as the Court can see,
8 so that at least the Court will be -- will have a sufficient initial
9 understanding of the inter-relationship between those component parts of
10 the case. But our intention to focus on -- in general on the component
11 parts of the case in a particular order has not changed.
12 JUDGE KWON: So for the benefit of the -- it will be for the
13 benefit of the Chamber as well if you stick to your original plan.
14 MR. TIEGER: Understood, Your Honour, and I think the Court can
15 see how -- the extent to which the Prosecution has attempted to adhere to
16 the witness schedule that was provided last year as the case was
17 continued for various reasons.
18 JUDGE KWON: So that said, that heard, I would encourage you
19 again to stick to your statements.
20 And then there's another matter you wanted to raise?
21 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. The accused raised
22 again the issue of statements, and I think that was raised last week for
23 the first time when the accused said, as far as he remembered, the
24 decision regarding translations did not apply to what he called basic
25 statements. And he said, "And if my understanding is correct," he'd ask
Page 1329
1 that statements in contrast to transcripts be translated. I just -- I
2 want to alert the Court that the accused's understanding is not correct,
3 and the decision of March 26th of last year on that issue explicitly
4 embraced both statements and transcripts. So that should dispatch that
5 issue.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
7 So the language issues, in the opinion of the Chamber, was dealt
8 with in that decision and others. So if you have something further, I
9 would like you to put it in writing and file a motion before the Chamber.
10 And as to the translation and remuneration and staff issues,
11 that's for the Registry to deal with at the moment, and it is only when
12 the fairness of the trial is affected that Chamber could intervene.
13 That said, let us bring in the witness. While the witness is
14 brought in, there's one further procedural matter, so when we go into or
15 out of -- come out of the private session, we need to put some pause
16 while -- because there is some lag in the French or other interpretation,
17 in particular, French. So at the last session, some confidential
18 information was broadcast when we -- while we were coming out of the
19 private session.
20 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour, and I appreciate that. I
22 neglected to mention explicitly one thing, and perhaps because it's so
23 obvious, and that is that there are any number of witnesses whose
24 testimony encompasses a number of components of the case, and of course
25 they will appear, for example, in the early component, talking about all
Page 1330
1 phases of what they observed, learned, and experienced.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. But it is not the case of this witness.
3 MR. TIEGER: This -- this witness, he's not one of those
4 witnesses that I'm alluding to in that comment particularly, but as the
5 Court has seen, this witness's evidence does embrace not only 1995 but
6 other aspects of -- of the events as well. But what I was referring to
7 more are the -- our witnesses who come to testify about one component
8 but -- in the context of one component but have significant evidence
9 about other components as well.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 Sir, make yourself comfortable.
13 Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, I'd just like to say that
15 with a trial of this magnitude, we need a system. We had Sanski Most.
16 We had Pale, part of Sarajevo
17 really, the absence of a system is felt, or chronology. It makes it more
18 difficult. The already difficult position of the Defence in terms of
19 resources and time. That's what I wanted to say for now.
20 But secondly, I'd like to say that I'm a little worried with the
21 efforts made by the Prosecutor to ensure protective measures for
22 witnesses who are not victims. This witness is not a victim. This
23 witness was a fighter for the BH Army, and I'm not allowed to mention the
24 name of his village.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, who is not a victim? Do you
Page 1331
1 know my case at all, sir?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm talking to the Trial Chamber
3 now. I apologise. The two of us will discuss matters in due course.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's totally unacceptable that you
5 challenge the protective measures which was recognised by this court
6 decision. There's other matters. You can appeal such decisions, but
7 saying such words in front of the witness is not a proper way of
8 challenging.
9 Please continue with your cross-examination.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I was thinking more
11 about what Mr. Tieger intimated as to the future, and it just so happened
12 that I mentioned this. But I don't want to insult anybody, of course,
13 least of all the witness.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, I put it to you that the organisation, paramilitary
16 organisation, secret organisation of the Muslims in Zvornik started in
17 early 1991 with the creation of a whole network of units, both at
18 municipal level and at regional level, for a number of neighbouring
19 municipalities. What do you have to say to that?
20 A. Well, what I have to say is this: What you're saying is a
21 notorious untruth. First of all, we didn't have anything to organise
22 ourselves with. We didn't have Slobodan Milosevic behind us to send in
23 corps with tanks. And I remember very well, Mr. Karadzic, when I arrived
24 from Belgrade
25 there were, 5, 10, 15, or how many, and all the barrels were trained on
Page 1332
1 Zvornik. Now, if we had those, that kind of weaponry, then I would
2 acknowledge that was so, but it was certainly not the way you just put
3 it.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, if I put to you, Witness, that the detachment in
5 your village was called the 6th Detachment -- now, I can't say the name
6 of the commander. I can't utter the commander's name. Anyway, that he
7 was a hodza, that is to say, an Islamic clergyman. Do you want to say
8 that it wasn't that way?
9 A. No, it wasn't. It wasn't. He wasn't a hodza.
10 Q. And if I put it to you and tell you that you had weapons, not
11 hunting weapons but automatic weapons which was purchased in different
12 ways, in an organised manner, and brought in to the entire municipality
13 and to your village as well, what do you have to say to that?
14 A. Mr. Karadzic, we had a few weapons, but they -- two soldiers
15 arrested two of our men, and they handed over the little weapons that
16 they had, whether they had procured it legally or not. Then those same
17 soldiers turned up and asked us to surrender our weapons, and we did that
18 too. Let me tell you who we surrendered them to. He didn't put his
19 first and last name but just his last name was Cecaric. He was a warrant
20 officer, Cecaric, and his first name began with an A, and you can find
21 the man. Whether he was Aleksandar or Andrija, but anyway, it was A.
22 Cecaric.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, as a soldier, did you have shifts? Did you go
24 to the front line and then home after that, after doing your shift?
25 A. Yes, yes. We had to protect ourselves in the village. We didn't
Page 1333
1 have a line. We just stood guard and watch over our village to prevent
2 anybody from attacking us.
3 Q. And what about during the time of operations? How long did your
4 shifts last?
5 A. Well, a shift lasted about eight hours.
6 Q. That means that there were three shifts in one day; right?
7 A. Yes, of course.
8 Q. During the shifts did the soldiers take their weapons home or did
9 they stay up at the line?
10 A. No. They would take them home and give them to the next man. I
11 said we didn't have much weaponry. Now, after that, when they started
12 taking our people away, arresting them, then all communication was
13 interrupted. The Serbs were walking around. There was no war. The
14 Serbs started rounding up people, and there was no communication later
15 on, when people became more organised.
16 Q. In the trial against President Milosevic, the Defence asked you
17 what you used to kill that many Serbs with, and your answer was -- what
18 was your answer?
19 A. When that operation took place, they seized our -- or, rather, we
20 seized weapons from your soldiers.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: I didn't object before, Your Honour, but your
23 guidelines make clear that when citing a prior statement back to a
24 witness, the party is to give the page and line, some indication of where
25 this statement's from, and I would ask that the accused follow that
Page 1334
1 guideline.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Could you bear that in mind,
3 Mr. Karadzic. Do you need reference as well?
4 MR. NICHOLLS: No, we can continue. I just -- this is the second
5 time, so in the future I would like references.
6 JUDGE KWON: Agreed. Thank you.
7 Continue, Mr. Karadzic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I am looking for that
9 now, because this question was out of my order of questions, whether they
10 had weapons or not, but I will find the reference. I'm looking for it,
11 for the statement and the particular reference. I'll give it to you
12 later on.
13 Anyway, I'd like to call up now 640, 1D00640. The next document,
14 please. It's a Defence document, and we're going to tender it into
15 evidence.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, while we're waiting for that come up, let me ask you
18 this: Mr. Nicholls said that your family was forced out by the Serbs
19 from your village to Tuzla
20 A. Of course, because they would never have gone to Tuzla if the
21 situation wasn't like that. First of all, you set fire to my house and
22 all the food I had in my house, and the children couldn't eat earth. You
23 can eat everything else, but not earth.
24 Q. Yes, thank you. Now, may we turn to the second page of this
25 document, please. But let's see what the heading is first. It says:
Page 1335
1 "The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, report -- or, rather,
2 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Municipal Staff of the armed forces of
3 Zvornik, report on the state, organisational, and formational structure
4 and combat readiness of the units of the armed forces of Zvornik."
5 It was drafted in Sapna on the 5th of November, 1992. Do you
6 agree with that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You don't agree?
9 A. No. It wasn't drafted in Sapna. We had no communication with
10 Sapna at all.
11 Q. But the staff was there.
12 A. No, no. We were -- Sapna is further than Zvornik.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we look at page 2 of that
14 document, please.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. It's the second marked paragraph, where it says, "The defence of
17 Kula Grad," in English. That paragraph. It's the fourth paragraph:
18 "The defence of Kula Grad, from the 9th to the 26th of April, was
19 carried out while the JNA was still the legal armed force in the region
20 of Tuzla
21 aggressor, and was not yet organised or ready to conduct a defensive and
22 liberating war. At that time, Kula Grad was the symbol of
23 BH resistance ... Kula Grad showed that resistance was possible," and so
24 on and so forth.
25 A. Well, it had to defend itself. There's no question about that.
Page 1336
1 Q. But the point here is that the JNA was the legal armed force at
2 the time and that your commanders knew that full well.
3 A. Mr. Karadzic, from 1990 onwards, there was no JNA. It could only
4 have been the Serb army. I served the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we
5 would salute this way, like this.
6 In 1990, the war still hadn't broken out and we were passing by
7 soldiers, and this is the sign, Mr. Karadzic, they made in salute. The
8 Yugoslav Army never saluted in this way. This is how we saluted. This
9 is how I saluted as a JNA soldier. So after the 1990s, don't mention the
10 JNA. The JNA dissolved as soon as the conflict broke out in Slovenia
11 Croatia
12 Q. Thank you. But let's not delve in politics. We have a lot to
13 get through, and it would be better if we could get through it all today.
14 And we'll come to how this army became predominantly Serb, as you say.
15 Looking at the documents that we're going to see today, it is
16 clear that this is an order from your leadership, and I'd like you to
17 focus on the last paragraph on the first page. In English it is: "From
18 the beginning," the last paragraph just before page 2. It says:
19 "From the beginning of the war to the present day, resistance in
20 the wider region of Kamenica was based on preparations carried out, the
21 awareness of the need for combat in the region cut off from the rest of
22 the liberated territories of the municipality, the headquarters of the
23 armed forces, and the leadership of the municipality.
24 "Under those conditions combat was carried out independently in
25 co-operation with the staffs and units of the armed forces of Vlasenica,
Page 1337
1 Bratunac, Srebrenica, in the triangle of Kamenica-Cerska-Srebrenica.
2 The" --
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I can feel the gasping of the
4 interpreters. Please slow down when you read out.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. "The inhabited parts of the area were independently held. The
8 roads from Mali Zvornik to Ljubovija and Zvornik to Drinjaca were
9 controlled.
10 Mali Zvornik and Drinjaca in Serbia, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So Serbia
13 territory?
14 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's answer was yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where could we do that? Where
16 could we prevent Serbia
17 Where were we able to do that? Where you can see that?
18 My village was built up and cut off towards the Drina River
19 were in the middle. The others were up towards Sekovici. We were
20 sandwiched between the two.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you. But let's stick to the document. You have it before
23 you. We're dealing with page 2 now. At the top of page 2 in the Serbian
24 version. Page 2 in the Serbian. It's -- your command states that the
25 inhabited areas of the region were held and that the roads from Zvornik
Page 1338
1 to Ljubovija and Zvornik to Drinjaca were controlled. You didn't have --
2 control it physically. It can be controlled through firepower.
3 A. How was it controlled if Mali Zvornik is from the bridge running
4 downwards towards Koviljaca? It doesn't run down towards Ljubovija.
5 Q. Can you see the road from Drinjaca?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what about from Kula Grad?
8 A. Well, Kula Grad was attacked at the very beginning in April.
9 Kula Grad fell in April. First of all, they didn't have any weapons for
10 them to be able to control it.
11 Q. Witness, sir, I would kindly ask you to provide me with short
12 answers. I'll ask my questions. You give us your answers, and we'll get
13 through your testimony this week.
14 Your report says that they controlled the road as well as the
15 Zvornik-Drinjaca road, which is in Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?
16 A. Oh, come on let's leave those stories, empty stories.
17 Q. Well, you can tell your commander that.
18 A. Leave those empty stories and rumours. They're just rumours.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Objection, Your Honour. I do have an objection.
21 It's a small point. This witness has explained what his role was
22 guarding his village. To put to the witness that this is "your report"
23 and lump him in somehow with the author of this report or -- is wrong and
24 I think it's provocative. It's not the witness's report and you can't
25 lump everybody together in that manner and say "your report."
Page 1339
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I think the accused understood.
2 Please go on.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will be more precise.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. This is a report from the Muslim command, so that's the sense of
6 it, and my question's along those lines.
7 Now, in the next paragraph it says:
8 "In extended co-operation, Magija's group ... on the 9th of July,
9 1992, were introduced. Kibe's group, Himzo's group, Nazif's group, on
10 the 27th of July, and some smaller group with ammunition and Medical
11 Corps material, sanitary materials."
12 Now focus on this part of the sentence:
13 "As well as the executed withdrawal of 7.500 civilians from the
14 first half of July to the first half of August."
15 A. It is true that they pulled out the civilians. That's right.
16 You're right there, because you forced them from Kula Grad, Snagovo,
17 Liplje, and all that general area. You made the population flow into my
18 small, poor village with no communication, and they had to take those
19 people in, otherwise they would have died.
20 Q. Thank you. I'm just asking you if you see that sentence and that
21 it says that throughout the war, furthermore, that efforts were made,
22 through General Morillon and outside General Morillon, to have these
23 civilians evacuated from those areas.
24 A. Well, let me tell you, sir. We were very concerned about our
25 civilians, because the civilians were being killed by shells. More
Page 1340
1 civilians were killed by shells -- more children were killed by shells
2 than bullets, because bullets couldn't reach long distances, whereas
3 shells and grenades could.
4 Q. Thank you. But would have they been getting killed if there were
5 no fighting?
6 A. No. Why were not -- they were not getting killed in 1992. You
7 could get killed in a traffic accident or a worker could fall from a
8 building perhaps.
9 Q. All right. I would like you to look at the paragraph beginning
10 with "Basis of successful resistance." Let us see. The grounds of the
11 successful resistance. It is in English:
12 "The grounds of successful resistance were accredited to the
13 preparations undertaken several months before the war, which were thus
14 reflected in the effectiveness of a large part of the activists, the
15 organised arming, and resolve to offer resistance at any cost. A
16 particular effect in the sustaining of the freedom of the territory was
17 created by the arrival and activity of Captain Hajrudin Mesic who had,
18 together with Captain Mehdin, Senad Hodzic and a smaller number of other
19 organisers of the resistance and the uprising, had managed to create a
20 sense of the need for armed resistance as well as the potential and the
21 effectiveness of freedom fighting. Captain Hajra's group was the first
22 combat unit in this region."
23 Whose captains were these and where was this, in which area?
24 A. In Zvornik.
25 Q. Well, Zvornik is big.
Page 1341
1 A. Ask me about my area. Don't ask me where Hajro Mesic was. Had
2 it not been for Hajro Mesic there would have been more, thousands more
3 victims. Had we not been stopping you, as evil as you were, not only
4 would we have 200.000 dead, we would have had 5 -- half a million dead if
5 we had not kept stopping you in your advance.
6 Q. Witness, sir, had Hajro Mesic not been there or that policy,
7 Bosnia
8 now be in the Muslim area and nobody would have been killed. Your
9 village and your area would have been in the Muslim state entity. This
10 is something that we had accepted in March 1992. You convinced the
11 people that you should be ruling it over the Serbs, and Hajro Mesic and
12 others were preparing the war months in advance. This is what I can
13 conclude from your sources, from Muslim sources.
14 My question was: Whose captains were these captains?
15 A. Just one moment. Mr. Karadzic, had we not put up any resistance,
16 we would have had half a million casualties, perhaps 200.000, but even
17 more likely half a million. You know what happened to the Srebrenica
18 population. God forbid that there had been 300.000 citizens in
19 Srebrenica. At least 100.000 of them would have been killed. It was
20 only God's will, thanks to God's will that these 10 or 12 people had
21 survived in order to be able to tell their stories here.
22 JUDGE KWON: Just -- Mr. Karadzic, this is not an occasion for
23 you to make a conclusion. Just ask questions. And I would like you to
24 move on to other issues, material issues.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I
Page 1342
1 agree with you, but the witness is making statements of a political
2 nature, implying some factual matters as well. Less than 60.000 Muslims
3 were killed. They had 40.000 fighters killed. All of this is different
4 from what has been known so far, and that is why I am asking him to pay
5 attention to the question.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Whose captains were these people before the war?
8 A. Mr. Karadzic, it is well known that these captains were Muslims.
9 But you know, Mr. Karadzic, that we, Bosnia and Herzegovina, had no army,
10 that we had one single Yugoslav People's Army, and you, Mr. Karadzic, had
11 generals from the beginning. You had tanks. You had planes. You had
12 howitzers, different types of guns. There was no calibre that you didn't
13 have. So can you please explain to us before this Chamber how is it that
14 you had such weaponry?
15 Q. Thank you. When I get to testify, I will explain that. Anyway,
16 were these Muslims captains captains of the JNA?
17 A. I don't know. Perhaps they were.
18 Q. From which other army would they have been captains of?
19 A. I don't know. I don't know what they were doing before the war,
20 if they were captains in any army before then.
21 Q. Witness, I'm talking about matters being mentioned in this
22 report, the triangle Kamenica, Cerska, Srebrenica. That's what I'm
23 talking about.
24 My next question is this: On page 3 in the Serbian version and
25 in the English version, it's still on page 2 but it's marked at page 3,
Page 1343
1 we have information about the activities there.
2 Who lived in Brdjani, sir?
3 A. Where are Brdjani?
4 Q. In your municipality.
5 A. I don't think there is a Brdjani there.
6 Q. Who lives in Odzacine?
7 A. Serbs, of course.
8 Q. Who lives in Rozanj?
9 A. Perhaps Serbs, but I'm not actually that familiar with Rozanj.
10 Q. Yeah, we did have all of that. It says in this period many
11 combat operations took place from which we will touch upon only a few,
12 the liberation of Sapna and Gaj on May 6th, the battle for Zaseok on the
13 10th of May, the taking of Brdjani on the 14th of May, Odzacine on the
14 11th of June, the battle for Boskovici on the 22nd of June, 1992. What
15 did the Muslim army want in Boskovici?
16 A. Who attacked Sapna and Gaj? Did the Muslims attack Gaj or did
17 the Serbs do that? Gaj and Sapna are -- have a 90 per cent Muslim
18 population. Can you please explain to me who attacked this Sapna and
19 this Gaj? Did they attack themselves?
20 Q. Who lived in Rastosnica?
21 A. Serbs lived in Rastosnica.
22 Q. There were three Croats in Rastosnica, six Muslims, and
23 2.334 Serbs. It was a very rich village, it wasn't?
24 A. I don't know. I never saw that village. I just heard about the
25 village, but I heard that there wasn't a single Muslim in Rastosnica.
Page 1344
1 Q. Sir, it says that on the 19th of August, 1992, and you were in
2 your village then, the liberation of Rastosnica took place. Who was it
3 liberated from?
4 A. Look, let me tell you this: Don't ask me that. Ask witnesses
5 who are from that area if they come here. I have nothing to do with
6 Rastosnica. It's 40 kilometres away from me. I was struggling to
7 protect my children and my family. I wasn't going off to liberate
8 Rastosnica. I don't even know where it is.
9 Q. Thank you. But you know everything that was going on your
10 village, don't you?
11 A. Yes. You can ask me about my village. Don't ask me anything
12 outside my village. I'm not a military analyst to be able to -- well,
13 look, I came here without a single piece of paper with me. I didn't
14 write any history of the war. All I can say is that we were defending
15 ourselves. We didn't have the strength to attack.
16 Q. Sir, all the offensive actions and the occasional defensive one
17 are noted here. So you were assaulting, attacking.
18 A. Whom?
19 Q. Sir, who were your enemies in that war?
20 A. Those who were attacking us.
21 Q. Who was that?
22 A. It was Serbs. They were attacking us, and they were our enemies,
23 of course.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I'm objecting to the argumentative
Page 1345
1 nature of some of this. Occasionally there's an actual question, but
2 we're also getting things like, "So you were assaulting, attacking."
3 It's not a question. It's a statement to the witness. I realise this is
4 cross-examination but he should be asking questions to the witness about
5 topics the witness can talk about and topics that he knows about. And
6 the witness is trying to make clear what areas he can talk about and what
7 parts he just doesn't know about. But it's not helpful, I think, to make
8 these argumentative assertions that don't even contain a question.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And sir -- and, Mr. Witness, on your
10 part as well, just hear out the question and then try to maintain your
11 answer to be simple as much as possible.
12 Mr. Karadzic, continue, please.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I can
14 believe Mr. Nicholls that this is a cross-examination that is detrimental
15 to the Prosecution, but that is the goal of my cross-examination.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness --
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, don't try to make a final statement,
19 final comment. Please continue. Just concentrate on questioning.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 4. Page 4
21 in the Serbian. It's probably page 4 in the English, too.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. At the bottom of the page, sir -- well, at the top it says,
24 "Organisational establishment structure of the units," and there we have
25 the units listed. We can look at the table at the bottom, an overview of
Page 1346
1 the units, fighters, the number of the fighters, interventions,
2 positions, rear.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, it's probably page 4 in
4 the English. In the B/C/S it's page -- in the English it's page 5. In
5 the B/C/S it's page 4.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. So we have a total of 32 units, and the staff. Do you see this
8 list, sir?
9 A. What are you thinking of when you say 32 units? Are you thinking
10 of 32 units only in my village or in the entire Zvornik municipality
11 area?
12 Q. The Zvornik municipality area.
13 A. Well, don't ask me about the Zvornik municipality. You can only
14 ask me about my area. I did not adopt or conduct any military policies.
15 You all have papers. I'm talking only about things that I remember. I'm
16 not interested about what happened in Sapna, in Djulici, what happened in
17 Bijeljina. This is something that I don't know because they are removed
18 from me. I didn't communicate by telephone with anybody who could then
19 tell me over the telephone this and this happened in such and such a
20 place.
21 Q. Sir, look at number 20. This is on page 5 in the Serbian. Did
22 you hear about the unit called Mosque Doves or pigeons? Did you ever
23 hear about that unit?
24 A. No, I never heard of that unit.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 5 in the
Page 1347
1 Serbian, and also I think we would need to move to the following page in
2 the English.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Witness, can you look at this last unit with the name
5 Sultan Fatih. Does this refer to Mehmed the Conqueror who conquered
6 Bosnia
7 A. Well, if you believe me, this is the first time that I'm hearing
8 that there was a unit with such a name. I'm hearing it now, from you,
9 for the first time. I hadn't heard of that before.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the following
12 page, please. And the next page in the English as well, please.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Now we can see the replenishment: Communications equipment,
15 30 per cent; infantry armament, 40 per cent; support armament,
16 30 per cent; anti-armour weaponry, 20 per cent; motor vehicles,
17 45 per cent; equipment and so on and so forth. Do you see that? So
18 infantry weaponry 40 per cent. So there's more than enough for three
19 shifts if the weapons are not taken home but left at the positions; is
20 that correct?
21 A. All I could have had would have been infantry weapons. There
22 were no trucks, auxiliary arms, vehicles. You know that we didn't have
23 any gas stations to supply ourselves. I mean, even if you had a car you
24 were unable to drive it.
25 Q. Thank you.
Page 1348
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please look at page 8 now,
2 please. Excuse me, no, we need to look at page 7. We are on page 7.
3 Excellent.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. On this page you can see what was required, what needed to be
6 procured. Do you see that? Because I don't need to read it, perhaps.
7 RUPs, Motorolas, modern infantry weaponry, jackets, uniforms, small
8 calibre ammunition, and so on.
9 A. Who was asking for this and who could have provided that? Can
10 you please tell me how far Tuzla
11 of this territory. Tuzla
12 or the villages of ours.
13 Q. Thank you. This is your local unit asking for supplies from the
14 base, but let us go back to the previous page.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 8 in the B/C/S.
16 I think in the English it's also page 8. Actually, in the English it's
17 probably one more page. We're looking at the end of the document. The
18 last page in the English, the last page of the document, please.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. And it says:
21 "Central tasks for the further development of the armed forces of
22 the municipality."
23 We're going to skip that. We're going to move to the second
24 paragraph. The main tasks are equipping with winter equipment and
25 materiels and technical equipment. The organisational and formational
Page 1349
1 rearranging of units and the vital enforcing of order, soldier discipline
2 and organisation. In the matter of command and control the key tasks are
3 the filling of chief positions, reinforcement, leading and forming of the
4 district staff of Kamenica, and the improvement of the system of
5 communications.
6 "With the conduct of combat operations, the focus should be
7 directed at the operations to liberate and open the corridor toward
8 Kamenica, enabling us to maintain the corridor and to strengthen the
9 frontal area of the defence, the forward area of defence throughout the
10 liberated territory."
11 A. All right, Karadzic. What are you trying to say when you say it
12 was like this? Did you want to say that we were not supposed to fight at
13 all, that we should have been sitting at home, and when you come we would
14 have allowed you to assemble all of us in one building for you to rape
15 the women and the girls, to kill whoever you wanted, to release who you
16 wanted, to do with the people as you wanted? This is what you perhaps
17 wanted, but the people had at least a little bit of sense to put up some
18 resistance. There was one single camp in our area and it was the only
19 one that we liberated. And perhaps, if you want, I can explain to the
20 Trial Chamber all the things that went on in that camp.
21 Q. Let's take it document by document and try and be as precise as
22 possible. Now, in your units, in your -- did you have people from other
23 parts, for example, Albanians?
24 A. We really are talking about things that don't hold water. Well,
25 we had enough men but not enough weapons. We didn't need more people to
Page 1350
1 come in. Had we had the necessary weapons, we could have defended
2 ourselves and this would never have happened. I would be sitting in my
3 house at home and you wouldn't have set fire to it.
4 JUDGE KWON: Sir --
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. We're wasting time, Witness.
7 JUDGE KWON: I'm asking -- I was talking, Witness. The question
8 was about the people, whether there was some -- you have people from
9 other parts, for example, Albanians, but your answer was regarding the
10 weapons. So could you try to answer the question and keep your answers
11 as simple as possible, please.
12 Mr. Karadzic.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Were there any Albanians in Kamenica?
15 A. No.
16 Q. No Albanian women either?
17 A. No, nobody.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have Defence Exhibit 1D00639
19 next, please.
20 JUDGE KWON: While we are bringing that document, following the
21 procedure, are you minded to tender that document into evidence?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Excellency.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection.
25 JUDGE KWON: How about the map, the Cutileiro map? Are you --
Page 1351
1 were you also minded to tender it or you are minded to tender it at a
2 later stage?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can do that later, because it
4 wasn't precise enough. It wasn't a precise Cutileiro map.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll admit this report, and the number
6 is?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D38.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have Defence document 639
10 now, please. It hasn't been translated, but we'll do our best to explain
11 the substance of it.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Do you know this boy from your village?
14 A. Well, he seems familiar. It's a child. I'm not quite sure, but
15 I would say he was familiar.
16 Q. All right.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now may we have page 2 of this
18 document displayed, please.
19 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
20 Mr. Nicholls.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, as Mr. Karadzic said, I don't
22 know -- this isn't translated. I don't know what it's going to say, but
23 if we're showing pictures of people that are from the witness's village,
24 then I think we need to go into private session, if we're going to show
25 pictures, stories that identify the village, or at a minimum not
Page 1352
1 broadcast the image.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's proceed without broadcasting this image
3 for the moment. Yes, thank you. Let's proceed.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May we have
5 page number 2, please. And could it not be publicly displayed. I'll
6 read it, but on Sanction, please.
7 I don't wish this to be broadcast, just for the courtroom.
8 Number 3. I would like page number 3. No. I'm sorry, page 4.
9 That's right. I need page 4, please.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I will read it, omitting the name of the village and just saying
12 "your village." (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted) He tried to save his dog and paid with his life for -- in the
18 attempt."
19 And I'll explain what happened. Since this considerable minority
20 in your village felt themselves to be under threat, fled during the
21 night, and this little boy Slobodan remembered that he'd left behind his
22 little dog, Lassie, and nobody could prevent him from going to untie his
23 dog and take the dog with him.
24 When he returned, he came across your army there, and
25 Elfete Veseli, this woman, was a member of that army, and the boy never
Page 1353
1 returned but not as you and other witnesses have said, we've never seen
2 the person coming back with the man, we don't know what happened to the
3 man, but here, unfortunately, we have testimony about what happened to
4 Slobodan.
5 Ilija goes on to say:
6 "We lived in that village of yours. The Muslims were in the
7 majority in the village. For days and nights we sat around devising a
8 plan of escape because we saw what the Serbs would suffer. It was
9 Thursday, the 4th of June, 1992, when, at dawn, we seized an opportunity
10 and managed to get out. We took four or five goats with us. We found
11 refuge in a hamlet," and I won't mention the hamlet, "with one of the --
12 with a kum of Zoran Milosevic. It's along the Drina River
13 arrived, Slobodan said, 'Daddy, Lassie has stayed behind, tethered,' and
14 he went down to save the dog."
15 And let's see what happened to Slobodan next.
16 His father goes on to say nobody could prevent him from going to
17 save his dog --
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, there's no point in reading out all
19 parts of the media article. Just put your question. What is your
20 question?
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I'm very sorry to rise again.
22 Just -- just to be careful. Page 70, lines 1 to 5, I think if we redact.
23 He's talking about the names of the person in the village of --
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I agree. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll come to my question.
Page 1354
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. "'My son Slobodan's arms were cut off to the elbow,' his father
3 recounts. 'Not a single finger was -- toe was left on his feet. His
4 ears had been cut off. There was a wound cut into his chest in the form
5 of a square, and his skin had been stripped back. There was -- were
6 traces of an entrance/exit wound on his head.'"
7 Witness, you were in the village at the time. Do you know about
8 this event?
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted) They could have gone anywhere they
15 wanted.
16 Now, what happened to the boy, I don't know. Whether somebody
17 sent him, I can't say. I don't know what the boy did. I didn't see the
18 boy. I knew the boy because they lived nearby. I'm not saying that they
19 didn't, and they weren't bad neighbours either, for that matter. But as
20 soon as the multi-party elections were completed, there's that man, what
21 was his name, Sumbulja [phoen] was his nickname. He was the only one to
22 stay with us and he died a year ago, but he was the only one to stay
23 behind. Otherwise, nobody else remained. But nobody expelled them.
24 They decided to leave of their own accord.
25 Now, what they did with their child, I don't know. There was
Page 1355
1 some scouting going on. Now, a mother and father, to let their son go
2 back to save a dog, I don't think so. I don't think so. There was
3 something else afoot.
4 Q. Well, we'll come to Slobodan and his parents and the punishment
5 that ensued, but you were talking about the elections. What were you
6 saying?
7 A. Well, this Sumbulja man, I can't remember what his name was, but
8 him and this Stojanovic family, they started beating him because he said
9 he voted for Alija, and they probably voted for the SDS. So they swore
10 at him for voting for Alija.
11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. And they disclosed themselves in that way, right?
14 A. Well, they quarreled.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry to --
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: -- interrupt again, but we have names again on
18 page 71 at lines 20 and 21. It may be impossible to talk about this
19 incident. Maybe we should go into private session if it's going to
20 continue to go into detail about this incident and different names,
21 because otherwise we're going to keep reacting.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I'm seeing those lines as well. We'll move on
23 to other issues. If we continue to --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I'm not going to
25 mention names. It would be a good idea for Mr. Nicholls to prevail upon
Page 1356
1 his witness to refrain from stating place names and the names of people,
2 but I would like us to stay in open session, if possible.
3 JUDGE KWON: So, sir, Mr. Witness, be cautious when naming other
4 people because it may reveal your -- your town. Do you understand?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all right. Everybody knows
6 about the place.
7 JUDGE KWON: I'm seeing the clock -- let's continue.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Do you mean to say that this sweet little boy deserved this kind
11 of death?
12 A. Well, all right, he didn't deserve it, but thousands of children
13 of other ethnicities did not deserve the death that they met, and you're
14 not asking about them, Mr. Karadzic. The women and girls and the peoples
15 whose whole families were killed. I'm not justifying this. She
16 shouldn't have done anything to the child. But what happened to her --
17 her family? She was an Albanian woman. What happened to her family in
18 Vlasenica? Why don't you ask them in Vlasenica whether her family had
19 been killed first?
20 Q. Witness, she was part of the BH Army, and it was on that basis
21 that she happened to be in your village at that time and committed this
22 act, and nobody is challenging that, and this dangerous boy coming to
23 reconnoiter, as you put it, was cut into pieces.
24 A. Well, we heard that the child had been killed, but nobody said
25 that the child had been massacred.
Page 1357
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I'd like to
2 tender this Defence document into evidence, please. Rather, I'd like to
3 have it MFI
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection, Your Honours. We just, of course,
6 wait for the translation.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be MFI D39, under seal.
9 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break now, but --
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, when you filed the notifications of
12 time estimate for April 2010 on 9th of April this year, you indicated you
13 would need four hours for cross-examination of this witness. At the time
14 you didn't indicate that four hours would be necessary, only for the
15 purpose of the situation regarding '92 -- '93. Given that you spent
16 about -- more than one and a half hours as of now for the
17 cross-examination but you haven't dealt with a thing about the situation
18 in '95. During the course of next session I would expect you to come to
19 those issues.
20 We have a witness who testifies -- who survived one of the
21 horrendous massacres, but you made an appalling statement that he's not a
22 victim but just a soldier. You should come to your questions to the
23 witness.
24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. If we could move into
25 private session very quickly before you adjourn. I wanted to raise one
Page 1358
1 matter, bring it to the Court's attention.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 [Private session]
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
Page 1359
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I had counted on
2 what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff had stated, that Srebrenica would come at the
3 end, and even if I don't have time to say anything about 1995, I'd like
4 to clarify the events leading up to 1993, because that's so important.
5 It's very important that nobody asks this witness relevant questions and
6 he's angry now. And I don't want to insult him. He's insulted by the
7 truth, but I'm insulted by lies and I have to clear this up.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I would like --
10 JUDGE KWON: This is not an opportunity for you to make
11 submissions. You will have full opportunities. So concentrate on your
12 questions. And -- nobody -- the Chamber has not precluded you from
13 asking questions regarding 1992, 1993 questions -- situations, but given
14 your statement -- given the case, I think it's proper for you to use your
15 time properly.
16 We will rise for 25 minutes.
17 --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Witness, sir, you came on the 3rd of April. Did you hear that
23 Mr. Izetbegovic, as the president of our joint Presidency, declared
24 general mobilisation on the 4th of April for the entire combat force in
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
Page 1360
1 A. No.
2 Q. But this was in the media.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you watch television in your village?
5 A. Yes, I did, but I never heard that this happened then.
6 Q. And did you hear that on the 8th of April, mobilisation of the
7 Muslim sector of the police was declared in Zvornik?
8 A. I think that that was when Zvornik fell. The Serbian forces took
9 Zvornik.
10 Q. The mobilisation took place first, then the Serbs fled to Serbia
11 A. And then when did they come?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 643 now, please.
13 643 is in English. We need to look at page 2 of 643. It's only in
14 English. We don't have it in the Serbian here. Ah, it's in the e-court
15 in Serbian too. I'm going to deal with the text in English and the
16 interpreters can translate it for you. This is page 55. Page 55 --
17 actually, page 69 of the book, and page 5 of the English document. In
18 e-court it's page 9, and in the Serbian it's page 69.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. While we're waiting, I'm going to read to you something from the
21 first paragraph, where it says:
22 "[In English] The SDA aspired to create a single front, and it
23 gains the support of all except the SDS. With the conflict in Croatia
24 more specifically when conflict erupted in Pakrac, spring 1991,
25 Brano Grujic, the president of the Municipal Board of the SDS, had
Page 1361
1 requested a meeting of creating a strategy to prevent the conflict from
2 translating to Zvornik. The meeting was held, and it was agreed that the
3 situation would be monitored so that this region would remain in a
4 peaceful state."
5 [Interpretation] You can see that the president of the Serbian
6 Democratic Party, Brano Grujic, made the first move by offering to create
7 conditions so that the war would not move into Zvornik; is that correct?
8 A. No, definitely not. The tanks were in Karakaj on the 2nd and
9 3rd of April. What you say about the Serbs crossing into Serbia is
10 incorrect.
11 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Please, I ask you not to waste my time.
12 A. Brano Grujic knew that he was being tried for war crimes or that
13 he would be tried for war crimes.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. Just for the record and
16 for the witness, could the accused put on the record what -- what he's
17 actually reading from. It's not in the transcript, I don't believe. The
18 book and the author.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. You omitted introducing the foundation of the
20 book, who was the author, what it is about. Let's continue.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your permission, Excellency, I
22 didn't forget. This is my tactic that I use with hostile witnesses.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness, this is a book by Mirza Hamzic. The title of the book
25 is "Zvornik from elections to Dayton." It was published in 1998. You've
Page 1362
1 heard the name of Mirza Hamzic before, haven't you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. But definitely he's Muslim. Is he a Muslim?
4 A. Yes, judging by the first and last name, yes, he is.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your permission, I would like
6 to continue. We would need to look at page 10 of this document and
7 page 71 of the book now. In English you -- you have it.
8 MR. KARADZIC:
9 Q. "The Patriotic League was formed on the July the 26th, 1991, in a
10 youth library in Kula Grad. We had formed a Crisis Staff, but its
11 commander was yet to be chosen. In the conversations between Hadzic and
12 Juzbasic, it was requested that Juzbasic's wing should deliver a
13 commander. A meeting was held during which it was decided that
14 Sakib Halilovic, aka Kibe, was to be named as a -- as the commander."
15 [Interpretation] Do you know Sakib Halilovic?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. The next paragraph:
18 "[In English] The organisation was now created. The defence plan
19 was created, and a network for weapon delivery was established. Weapons
20 were purchased in Vienna
21 Patriotic League was formed. 'Smugglers' were brought in who had sold
22 weapons in order to be able to purchase new ones. In September of 1991,
23 roughly 15 weapons had arrived via the SDA, which had a counter-effect
24 because Juzbasic had been saying how weapons should not be purchased and
25 how the SDA would arm the people."
Page 1363
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 11 of the document now,
2 please, and page 72 of the book. Excellencies, I think you have that on
3 this page. The last part of the paragraph there says -- I have to read
4 the whole paragraph:
5 "[In English] Through companies there were attempts to access
6 money for the purchasing of weapons. During one meeting with company
7 executives, when the Chetniks tore through Serbia, had begun their
8 bacchanalia in Karakaj and Celopek, means were sought but Muhamed Jelkic,
9 the executive manager of the health centre" --
10 JUDGE KWON: Next page in B/C/S, please.
11 MR. KARADZIC:
12 Q. "Had offered to supply the means necessary for the purchasing of
13 weapons by which the people would be protected. Accordingly, there was a
14 topic on the withdrawal of our young men serving in the JNA, and the
15 prevention of the mobilisation of reservists."
16 [Interpretation] I asked you, sir, whether the JNA became Serb
17 because Serbs were rushing to join the JNA or because you were leaving
18 the JNA and preventing mobilisation pursuant to instructions from your
19 leaders.
20 A. Had there been Bosniaks in the army, it was referred to as the
21 JNA from the 1990s, they would have been victims. They probably would
22 have had to be at forward positions, your Serb soldiers would be behind
23 them, and in shooting they would probably have been the victims.
24 Q. Thank you. That was not my question. The question was whether
25 Muslim soldiers and officers were leaving the JNA pursuant to
Page 1364
1 instructions of your leadership, and did your leadership prevent the
2 response to the call-up?
3 A. Yes, it did.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now move to the next page,
6 please.
7 "[In English] Conflict with the SDA had influenced the
8 effectiveness of this action. At one point, the Zvornik MUP had
9 encountered one of our soldiers in the JNA who had deserted and returned
10 him to his unit. As a response to question as to what he was doing,
11 Osman Mustafic, MUP executive, had answered, I am sustaining the legal
12 government. And what are we doing? You are creating an upheaval."
13 [Interpretation] A rebellion. An overthrow. An overthrow, a
14 rebellion.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Did you hear of Osman Mustafic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were the overall preparations of the Muslim community and their
19 fighting have the character of a rebellion?
20 A. No.
21 Q. But this policeman, a government figure, said you are conducting
22 an overthrow.
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. Sir, he said that about the SDA.
25 A. No. This is what the Serbs were doing. Osman was just a pawn.
Page 1365
1 He couldn't do anything there. You immediately separated and set up
2 barricades around Karakaj, together with the Serbian police. Osman could
3 only have just watched this.
4 Q. Sir, you are wasting time. We already lost a lot of time on some
5 other questions.
6 A. You are wasting time. I can sit here for as long as necessary.
7 Q. I know, but the Chamber won't permit that.
8 A. Well, it's up to you, then.
9 Q. "[In English] The result was a paradoxical situation in which
10 Pasic's faction was well controlled by the MUP, whose leader was a
11 Bosniak. In spite of that fact, the SDA had, through channels of the
12 Patriotic League, managed to import around 3 or 4.000 barrels to the
13 municipality of Zvornik. At one of the Assembly sessions of the
14 municipality Zvornik, the SDS
15 the arming of the Bosniaks. Inspector Sakib Coric," [Interpretation] who
16 is evidently a Muslim, "[In English] was hired to examine the status and
17 was given a warrant to apprehend Asim Hadzic as the organiser of the
18 illegal activity -- of that illegal activity. Hadzic had managed to
19 acquire that warrant and had given it to the republic MUP minister,
20 Alija Delimustafic."
21 [Interpretation] Sir, do you see that there was political
22 activity in the municipality to prevent the arming, but this was bypassed
23 and this was something that went past Delibasic, who is a Muslim police
24 officer?
25 A. Well, you are reading this and that, but I'm really familiar with
Page 1366
1 very little of what you are reading out.
2 Q. Well, we're in a hurry, so let us go to page 73 of the book, the
3 end of that paragraph, where it says:
4 "[In English] Abdulah Pasic had answered, Surrender the weapons.
5 I had already contacted the other side and we need to continue living
6 together."
7 [Interpretation] Abdulah Pasic also believes that we should live
8 together and not to fight. Have you heard of Abdulah Pasic?
9 A. You know what? What you are saying, we did surrender weapons,
10 and those people who did surrender their weapons are dead now. They
11 didn't get to cohabit with the others just because they handed over their
12 weapons. What you are saying is actually not accurate at all.
13 Q. It is accurate. Page 12 and page 74 of the book:
14 "[In English] The employees of Radio Zvornik were told to pack
15 the equipment and abandon the city, and that the municipal authorities
16 were to move to Kula Grad."
17 [Interpretation] So the Muslim part of the authorities in Zvornik
18 municipality were leaving Zvornik and transferring to Kula Grad, the
19 centre of authority.
20 A. Oh, come on, Karadzic. Don't say such stupid things. Please
21 don't. Kula Grad can't take the -- they left Zvornik municipality. If
22 you have something more intelligent to say, say it, but don't keep on
23 about stupid things like that.
24 Q. Witness, don't get upset. This is a Serb truth.
25 A. It's the Serb untruth. Mr. Karadzic, tell this Court and the
Page 1367
1 people here, please tell them. Do you acknowledge that the Serbs were
2 responsible for anything and should be held responsible for anything?
3 It's only others that are to blame, according to you. But let's stop
4 these stupidities.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Sir. Sir, could you be so kind to simply
6 answer the question.
7 Let's move on.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can't answer
9 stupid questions. I do apologise. You're the President, but I
10 experienced everything on my own skin, and my children were not able to
11 have a happy childhood like other children. So if you don't like what
12 I'm saying, just tell me. You can tell me, "Sir, you can leave and go
13 back to where you came from."
14 JUDGE KWON: Sir, you've come here to answer the questions, and
15 in that way, the Chamber is assisted in finding the truth. So I can
16 understand how you feel, but please calm down and then concentrate on
17 answering the questions.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you tell him not to
19 read this because it's got nothing to do with me. He can read something
20 that is personally linked to me. I'm not a military strategist and I
21 didn't write an archive so that I can open documents like Karadzic can
22 with his associates and do it that way. I'm just telling you what I know
23 about. I'm not interested in anything else.
24 JUDGE KWON: So please bear with the question, and if you are not
25 able to answer the question or you don't know anything about it, please
Page 1368
1 answer in that way.
2 Let's move on.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they're not questions for me.
4 They're not questions for me. Not my questions.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Witness, in your statements and during your testimony, you did
8 make claims about what happened in that area, and now I want to show that
9 what happened were other things, and I'm reading a Muslim source. This
10 isn't an attack against you. It's just an attempt to establish the
11 truth.
12 A. There's not one iota of truth there, so don't talk about the
13 truth. That's why I am getting upset, because you're telling untruths,
14 and I thank Allah for having been in Bosnia and Herzegovina throughout
15 the war so I could see, come to realise what my neighbours were like.
16 They had dinner with us one night and took up knives to kill us the
17 other.
18 Q. And is that the first time in our history that that happened,
19 Witness?
20 A. Well, it is as far as I'm concerned, because I don't remember
21 other historical events. But this happened before the eyes of the world,
22 before the United Nations, and the United Nations linked up the Bosniak
23 people and gave the executioners all their weapons.
24 Gentlemen, you know that Srebrenica was a protected area, and it
25 should not have fallen, and you allowed 18.000 inhabitants to be killed.
Page 1369
1 Did you hear a mother saying last year that she was in childbirth in
2 Potocari, and another woman helped her deliver her baby, and as soon as
3 the baby let out a cry, a Serb soldier came out and smothered the child,
4 killed the child. You don't understand that, gentlemen. When the
5 mothers of Srebrenica said they were going to sue the United Nations,
6 they said the United Nations had immunity. Nobody had such strong
7 immunity, because you took away -- first of all, you took away all our
8 property. Then you took away our lives, and now you want to say that we
9 Muslims wanted --
10 JUDGE BAIRD: Excuse me. Excuse me. Now, we fully -- we fully
11 appreciate how you feel. We really do. But now what Judge Morrison and
12 Judge Kwon have said, I will also say. Dr. Karadzic is entitled to ask
13 you questions. He is entitled to cross-examine you. If when you hear
14 the question you find you don't understand it, then let us know. We'll
15 have him clarify it. If the question is improper, then the Prosecutor
16 would object. We would hear the objection, and we will rule, or we
17 ourselves might intervene. But as long as the question has not been
18 objected to, and as long as we haven't intervened and you understand the
19 question, answer it as best you can. That is all we are saying. But we
20 do appreciate how you feel.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir -- Judge, sir, I
22 understand you. I understand you well, but you don't understand me.
23 You're listening to what Karadzic is reading, and that has nothing to do
24 with my statement or testimony. I'm not interested in that. I'm not a
25 politician. I'm not a military analyst.
Page 1370
1 JUDGE BAIRD: You see, what I'm saying is this: If when
2 Mr. Karadzic asks you a question you don't agree, say, "I don't agree."
3 If you don't accept it, say "I don't accept it." But you see, you can't
4 tell him that he can't ask you. He is entitled to cross-examine. But
5 you now would be entitled to say, "Look, I don't understand this
6 question --"
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have my rights too. I have come
8 here to did testify --
9 JUDGE BAIRD: You, indeed, have your rights. You do indeed have
10 your rights and we would not allow those rights to be trampled on, but he
11 also has his rights. And we are there now to balance, to ensure that
12 both sets of rights are respected.
13 Mr. Karadzic, let's carry on.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE BAIRD: All right. Very well. Let's go on.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, I'm going to make it easier for everyone concerned, and
18 I won't read word for word, but I'd like to say something with respect to
19 page 16, page 82 of the book, that after the meeting with Mr. Mustafic,
20 Captain Dragan Obrenovic arrived and informed them that an incident had
21 taken place. I think that was the 5th of April, an incident in Sapna
22 where a soldier of the Yugoslav People's Army, which with -- withdrawing
23 to Yugoslavia
24 of their soldiers were captured. Do you remember that incident?
25 A. No.
Page 1371
1 Q. Thank you. The president of the municipality, Abdulah Pasic and
2 the SDA, Asim Juzbasic, proposed that the soldiers be released to prevent
3 an escalation. Did you hear about that happening?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Let's move on to page 26 now, which is page 102 of the book. And
6 there Mr. Hamzic, this is Mirza Hamzic's book and his words, he said that
7 they were thinking about calling their army the Muslim army. Did you
8 hear about that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 A. In our army there were people of all ethnicities. It wasn't a
12 mono-ethnic army.
13 Q. Well, we had whole Muslim units in our army.
14 A. I don't believe that. I don't believe that. And if you did,
15 perhaps you had prisoners to dig trenches for you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now let's look at page 30 of this
17 document and it is page 111 of the book.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Page 111 says the following:
20 "We had a plan for defence, for the defence of Zvornik, and we
21 had information from the authorities in Zvornik, and they were Muslims,
22 said Almir, because the former JNA just crossed the Zvornik in Serbia
23 English] arranged artillery, fortified itself and brought more
24 reinforcements. Thus, immediately prior to the Chetnik aggression, we
25 had intended to occupy the key positions in Zvornik. Assuredly, however,
Page 1372
1 we are not able to do so without the support and co-operation of the
2 leading figures in municipality."
3 [Interpretation] It says here that before the Serb attack, they
4 moved the radio and the Muslim authorities to Kula Grad, and they planned
5 to take control of the key positions in town.
6 Now, did you hear about that?
7 A. No. They didn't have the force and strength to do that with the
8 cause. Serbia
9 Serbian cause, army cause?
10 Q. I'm sure the Trial Chamber will calculate the time spent on
11 nothing, my time spent on nothing.
12 "According to the plan Zvornik was not to be defended alone. [In
13 English] It was only one of the municipalities for which commander
14 Sakib Halilovic was installed in the subregion of Podrinje which was,
15 aside from Zvornik, also comprised of Bratunac, Srebrenica, Vlasenica,
16 and Kladanj, and the commander was Salko Dedic."
17 [Interpretation] So the regional military organisation whose
18 commander was Salko Delic -- Dedic.
19 Now, when I said previously that it wasn't the Serb truth, what I
20 meant -- what I said is this is a Muslim truth. So I'd like to correct
21 the transcript on that score.
22 Was there regional military organisation as Mirza Hamzic writes
23 in the book?
24 A. Where?
25 Q. Zvornik, Bratunac, Kladanj, Vlasenica, and so on. The commander
Page 1373
1 was Salko Dedic.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly be asked to speak one
3 at a time for the benefit of one and all, otherwise it is impossible to
4 interpret. Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: Sir, just a second. The interpreters couldn't
6 follow your questions and answers because you were overlapping at the
7 same time.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll repeat it if they haven't
9 interpreted it.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecution instruct the
11 witness that it is me asking the questions and not him.
12 JUDGE KWON: The Prosecution has nothing to do with monitoring
13 the witness evidence. It is for the Chamber.
14 The last question was:
15 "Zvornik, Bratunac, Kladanj, Vlasenica, and so on. The commander
16 was Salko Dedic."
17 That's what we have in the transcript. What is your answer,
18 Mr. Witness?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is the first time that I
20 hear of this man Salko Dedic, and I was in an encirclement. I had no
21 communication with anyone or anything.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I continue,
23 Your Excellency?
24 JUDGE KWON: Please.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 1374
1 Q. Page 36 of this document, and page 123 of the book. It --
2 "[In English] Salko Bukarevic, one of the organisers and active
3 members of the Patriotic League for north-eastern Bosnia recalls this
4 period retrospectively." [No interpretation].
5 "At the beginning of January 1992, Sefer Halilovic, the commander
6 of Patriotic League for B and H, arrived in Tuzla from Sarajevo
7 Together with the members of the headquarters of the Patriotic League
8 Tuzla
9 the headquarters was also Salko Bukarevic, who says about the -- Sefer's
10 visit."
11 [Interpretation] Page 37 or 124:
12 "[In English] Talks with the leader of SDA and municipality
13 authorities --" [Interpretation] So the municipal authorities, the Muslim
14 part of the municipal authorities are collaborating with the illegal
15 Patriotic League in January 1992, the beginning of January 1992. On that
16 occasion he gave specific tasks for individual municipalities. [In
17 English] He was especially interested in the readiness of Podrinje for a
18 potential defence. That is when the president of the SDS Zvornik,
19 Asim Juzbasic said that all units are ready for a possible task and also
20 that everything is prepared for the destruction of bridges on the Drina
21 [Interpretation] Sir, you had even prepared the destruction of
22 the bridges on the Drina River
23 throes of negotiations which ended on the 18th of March with the
24 exceptions of the Lisbon Agreement. Is that the case, is that right or
25 not?
Page 1375
1 A. Tell me, Karadzic. What were they prepared -- preparing to
2 defend themselves from? Was there a threat to them, that they should
3 prepare themselves?
4 Q. Sir, does it say that they were prepared, that everything was
5 prepared for the destruction of the bridges?
6 A. I don't know, but what is it that they had to defend themselves
7 against? So if you weren't in favour of war, why would they have to
8 defend themselves and prepare themselves for defence? Answer me that.
9 The Judges are there. The two of you are over there.
10 Q. Yes. Let's not waste time. I'm not here to answer questions,
11 you are.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I'd like to
13 tender this document into evidence, Mirza Hamzic's book, and the excerpts
14 we've read out. 1D00643 is the number.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Again, Your Honour, no real objection. However, I
18 think it should be marked at this time, because we have very small
19 extracts of translation, not a proper translation. We don't have the
20 context of these questions, but I have no real objection. I just don't
21 think we have a proper translation at this point.
22 JUDGE KWON: Despite the Prosecution's observation, the Chamber
23 is not minded to admit this book. The reason is because most of the
24 part -- the contents were put to the witness, and the witness did not
25 confirm most of those parts. The part that the witness confirmed is --
Page 1376
1 has been already reflected in the transcript, so there's no need for
2 those parts to be admitted separately. And as far as these other parts
3 the witness didn't confirm or did not agree with, there is no basis.
4 That does not mean that you cannot produce it during the Defence case.
5 So this shows how much you wasted time. I would expect you to
6 get advice from Mr. Robinson how to use your cross-examination time
7 wisely and efficiently. This is not a proper way of cross-examination,
8 in particular, to the witness, as you said, who is not hostile -- who is
9 not friendly to you. So please bear that in mind.
10 So this exhibit is not admitted at this moment. Move on to your
11 next topic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I
13 think that this exhibit, if nothing, is useful in order to test the
14 credibility of this witness. Now I would like to call up 644, and could
15 I please ask that it not be broadcast to the public. 644. And can we
16 prepare 645? We're going to go through them quickly. I just would like
17 for the witness to look at this and comment.
18 JUDGE KWON: Do we not go -- do we not need to go into private
19 session?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no. If this is not being
21 broadcast outside, then it's not necessary. If this is only being
22 broadcast in the courtroom, then it's all right.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness, sir, do you know this personality, and do you see his
25 name?
Page 1377
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you socialise with him in Belgrade? He also worked in
3 Belgrade
4 A. No. He was in the police and I was in construction. Sometimes
5 we would travel by bus together.
6 Q. Thank you. I'm only going to look at the middle paragraph.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please ask you to scroll
8 up.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Where it says: "He was one of the first founders of the
11 1st Muslim Podrinje Brigade, and he joined the same with over (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted) He
15 carried out officer duties and so on and so forth.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
17 document for admission and we will translate it. We will have -- we did
18 not mention the name of the village. Can we please ask the witness
19 although -- the interpreters, although they have to look at the document.
20 This is the village of this witness and this man together, and I have
21 maintained the confidentiality.
22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Mr. Nicholls.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, again there's no translation, so I
24 have no idea what Mr. Karadzic is reading from. And two, there hasn't
25 been any statement of what this text in the box is, where it's from.
Page 1378
1 There needs to be some sort of foundation or description of the document
2 rather than just a picture and text in a box that is being admitted.
3 Sought to be admitted.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, what is this document about? Who
5 prepared or produced this document?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, this is a monograph
7 of the 8th Srebrenica Operations Group of the 28th Division of the land
8 forces, which is already in the EDS
9 e-court. We're going to look at it. This is number 646. These are all
10 just excerpts in order for us not to have to submit the entire document.
11 We are just bringing up certain portions of this monograph.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Can you please tell me, where exactly did he bring these
14 500 people? The 1st Muslim Podrinje brigade.
15 A. But where? Where? Where? You said from which village he took
16 them, but where?
17 Q. He took them probably to Srebrenica?
18 A. No. He left our village before the women and children left. He
19 went to Tuzla
20 eyes.
21 Q. Sir, it states here that he was appointed commander of the
22 1st Motorised Infantry Brigade. Perhaps it was in Tuzla but --
23 A. Definitely not. I'm not saying anything about Tuzla, but for
24 sure, he never went to Srebrenica.
25 JUDGE KWON: That's fine. So, Mr. Nicholls, what is your
Page 1379
1 position having heard from the accused?
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honour, I'm still not clear. I'm
3 trying to find out what the document is. It may be in EDS, but I'm not
4 clear on what the document is, where it is, who the author is, what
5 entity it's from.
6 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, I'm --
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. It may not be necessary to
9 go into private session if the Court will look quickly at 95, lines 10
10 through 15. Although the document wasn't broadcast, there were two
11 consecutive references that -- that effectively nullified that cautionary
12 measure, and I think gave indications that should be redacted.
13 JUDGE KWON: That will be taken care of by the Court Officer and
14 the Legal Officer.
15 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation] [Microphone not activated].
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, this is a Muslim
18 source, a monograph about their own army after the war. It's loaded into
19 the EDS
20 document, we are just bringing up certain portions of the documents. So
21 646 and then 645, and we can look at the first page of the document.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I would take your word, but you are
23 not giving evidence, and we are not satisfied with the foundation of the
24 document of this kind, so until that time and pending translation, we'll
25 mark this document for identification.
Page 1380
1 What number will be given to this?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI D40, under seal.
3 JUDGE KWON: Sir, did you have something to say? Did you want to
4 say something to me?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.
6 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just briefly, can we show the
8 witness 645, and 646 after that, and then we're going to move to a
9 different topic. 645 first, please. I would like this not to be
10 broadcast.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can we look at the name. Are you familiar with this name, sir?
13 JUDGE KWON: Go up.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, sir, do you know this man?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you see in the second paragraph it says:
18 "From September 1991, worked intensively to organise and prepare
19 resistance to the aggression on the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina
20 when he was also appointed as commander of the Crisis Staff for the
21 region."
22 A. That man is still working as a clerk in a municipality. He had
23 nothing to do with the army or anything. I don't think that he ever even
24 went out anywhere or took up a rifle in his hands.
25 Q. Thank you. This is a document of your command.
Page 1381
1 A. If we had more people like this, we would have been many, many
2 more dead.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, can we adopt this --
4 admit this as an MFI
5 646.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. D41, MFI
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 646, please. This is the book, the
8 monograph, the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Now let
9 us look at 646, page 3, in the e-court.
10 Excellencies, this is that book. It is undoubtedly a Muslim
11 book, published by their army.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Witness, will you permit me just to read what --
14 JUDGE KWON: What was your question to -- regarding the previous
15 image?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question was whether he knew
17 this man, and I read the second paragraph where we can see that from
18 September 1991 he worked to organise and prepare armed resistance and so
19 on and so forth. And the witness confirmed that he knew the person but
20 that he doubts or does not believe that he did that and that he was
21 unfit.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was not unfit. He just didn't
23 join the army. I don't know if he did anything illegally, but --
24 JUDGE KWON: What --
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 1382
1 Q. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: What was your question regarding that flag, if
3 that's a -- monograph.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, that is the cover
5 page of the book from which we are taking this document. Now we're
6 looking at page 3, that I'm going to put questions to the witness from.
7 It's just that I didn't say, "Can we look at page 3." They immediately
8 showed the cover page or page 1.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Witness, sir, now I'm going to read to you this 8th Operations
11 Group of Srebrenica, later the 28th Division of the ground forces
12 comprise the 280th East Bosnian Light Brigade Potocari, 281st East
13 Bosnian Light Brigade Suceska, 282nd East Bosnian Light Brigade
14 Srebrenica 123, 285th East Bosnian Light Brigade Zepa, 286th Mountain
15 Brigade Srebrenica. You are right, the first Motorised Infantry Brigade
16 was in Tuzla
17 So can you please tell us according to what you know, were these
18 units part of the 8th Operations Group?
19 A. I don't know if they were that after 1993, but before 1993, they
20 were not. I actually came to Srebrenica in 1993.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 46 in the
22 e-court? 1C6th Detachment Srebrenica, where it says already in April,
23 the 6th of April, 1992, repelled a Chetnik attack on Kula as well as the
24 surrender of weapons on the 11th of April, 1992, and repelled the Chetnik
25 attack on Kamenica on the 25th of April, 1992. This was followed by
Page 1383
1 attacks on Kula and the fall of Kula, the attack on Snagovo, Liplje and
2 Kamenica. So that is that unit. The retaking of the village and the
3 fighting on the 25th of May, 1992, and the 27th of May, 1992. Sabotage
4 on enemy vehicles and force in Redzici and so on and so forth. I don't
5 want to read to whole thing just look at that. Are you aware of all
6 these fights?
7 A. No.
8 Q. But all of this is happening in your village?
9 A. All I know is that these units came with light vehicles, and I
10 don't know about the rest.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 12 in the
12 e-court and can we not broadcast it outside the courtroom again, please.
13 Page 12, TO, the 6th Detachment. I'm not mentioning the name of
14 the village.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Sir, can you see the third line, 4, 5, 6, and you can see your
17 last name on positions 3, 6, and 9. These are commanders of your
18 6th Detachment from your village.
19 A. Yes. What commanders? These are just regular people. It's just
20 that they went to defend the innocent people there. These are no
21 commanders. Not one of them has any rank.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you. You said in your statement that from
23 Konjevic Polje, that it was agreed that civilians should go to Srebrenica
24 from Konjevic Polje. Who was this agreement made with?
25 A. Morillon came there.
Page 1384
1 Q. And who did Morillon reach this agreement with?
2 A. With Naser Oric.
3 Q. And who else?
4 A. I don't know. I was just small fry. I don't know who they made
5 these agreements with.
6 Q. Why didn't he agree about it with Serbs, because the Serbs were
7 supposed to let you cross that territory?
8 A. Which Serbs?
9 Q. Serbs from Bratunac and Srebrenica?
10 A. Well, had the Serbs been there, we wouldn't have been able to
11 leave. There was a camp there also. You came there.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're under the pressure of time.
13 I apologise to the interpreters. I understand completely.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You arrived in Srebrenica and Serbs did not take Srebrenica. Why
16 didn't they do that? What do you think?
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you can ask that question to
19 the Serbs. Please don't ask me.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Objection, Your Honour. I mean, calling for him
21 to speculate why a military action did not take place then.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It is not for the witness to speculate. I
23 agree.
24 Mr. Karadzic, how much longer do you have for this witness?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I don't think I
Page 1385
1 had more than two hours of effective work. Everything else was
2 procedural questions and resistance from this hostile witness. So I
3 would like to be given two hours, perhaps an hour and a half I could
4 spend with 1995, and then perhaps the witness wouldn't have to come back
5 again.
6 JUDGE KWON: I see the time. At least I would expect you to
7 start your questions regarding the 1995 circumstances. Let's move on.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, but there are many
9 documents that I haven't gone through. This witness is more important,
10 as far as the Defence is concerned, for 1993.
11 May we now have 255, a Defence exhibit, please.
12 JUDGE KWON: I meant tomorrow.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ah, I beg your pardon. Tomorrow.
14 Right. Thank you.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Before we move on, shall we deal with this
16 document? You're moving on to another document?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, yes, I would
18 like to move it into evidence.
19 JUDGE KWON: I forgot to mention the previous document which was
20 admitted as D41, MFI
21 you say?
22 MR. NICHOLLS: I have no objection to this being marked,
23 Your Honour. I'm still not entirely clear what it is, but I'll --
24 JUDGE KWON: But my concern is that I noted in -- from the
25 e-court, it's of 135 pages long, and the pages which were put to the
Page 1386
1 witness is only 1, 3, 12, and 46. So we will only mark only those pages
2 for identification, pending translation.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI'd D42, under seal.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I fear that more pages were put to
6 the witness than you mentioned. Pages on e-court or pages in the book,
7 which?
8 JUDGE KWON: I relied on you when I referred to page numbers, but
9 that can be clarified after checking the transcript. Let's go on.
10 So I was advised that they are e-court numbers.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I hope we'll be able to
12 correct it if necessary.
13 May we have the next document. Do we have time for that one
14 today, one more?
15 JUDGE KWON: We have ten more minutes for today.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D0055 [as interpreted] is the next
17 document, please. 255 is the document number. I don't know how it was
18 interpreted.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Now, Witness -- may we zoom in. You have my order of the 16th of
21 April, 1993, there, and it says:
22 "I hereby order cease all operations of the army --"
23 JUDGE KWON: I don't think the witness can read it. Do you
24 recognise any of the document? Can you read them? No.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not trying to read it
Page 1387
1 either, because I need my glasses to read. I can't even read one or two
2 lines.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. We can put it on the overhead projector, if you like, and I'll
5 read it.
6 A. Well, you go ahead and read it. I don't need to read it. No,
7 no.
8 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's proceed.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. From this order we can see that I ordered that all operations
12 cease against Srebrenica. And then one item says that I also ordered
13 that no investigations of the crime be undertaken, committed by those
14 soldiers, the Muslim soldiers, so as to prevent increased tension.
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Well, you might have ordered it for the benefit of the public,
17 but secretly you said, "Kill as many as possible," because it was your
18 aim to kill as many people as possible. It's not true that you wanted to
19 prevent this and protect this. And I heard you say over the radio, but I
20 can't remember how far before the fall of Srebrenica it was, that you
21 would take your revenge on the men of Srebrenica.
22 Q. Sir, your Prosecutors will have to bring in that statement of
23 mine if it exists.
24 A. No. The Prosecution didn't hear that. I heard it. I listened
25 to it.
Page 1388
1 JUDGE KWON: No speech, please. Just ask the questions.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. It says here under item 1:
4 "Cease all operations ..."
5 Item 2: "Stop the forces ... at the positions reached and
6 prevent their entry into Srebrenica."
7 Item 3, and the date is the 16th of April, 1993. After you
8 arrived in Srebrenica and the Army of Republika Srpska had liberated the
9 part inhabited by the Serbs, and that's how the Srebrenica protected zone
10 was established.
11 "Ensure the pacification of the town in such a way that the
12 Muslim forces surrender their weapons to UNPROFOR ..." not the Serbs,
13 UNPROFOR. And then UNPROFOR will store them on a two-key basis jointly
14 with the Serb forces.
15 Item 5: "After the surrender of weapons all the Muslim soldiers
16 shall be treated like other civilians."
17 "Provide protection for all civilians and give them the freedom
18 to choose whether they want to stay or go."
19 Item 6: "Do not conduct any investigations into war crimes until
20 the situation around Srebrenica is settled."
21 7: "Carry the order out immediately and fully and inform me
22 thereof."
23 So the army stopped at the lines reached. It did not enter
24 Srebrenica until 1995. Isn't that right?
25 A. No. No, that's not right. That's not how it was because you,
Page 1389
1 sir, had the intention of cleansing Srebrenica.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. When you try to dupe the United Nations and behave towards the
4 civilians as you did -- yes, you did. You killed the population and
5 children, and there were lots of 14-year-old children buried last year.
6 And people's eyes were full of tears, because to kill a 14-year-old child
7 that's terrible.
8 Q. You're wasting my time.
9 A. So are you.
10 Q. There was never a female body found or the body of a minor child
11 under the age of 16 found during the exhumation. And now we can move on
12 to page 153 -- 53.
13 A. The Judges are here. The Prosecution is here. Your Defence is
14 there. In Potocari the -- every buried person has a name and surname.
15 So if I'm telling lies, I'll sit in your place and you'll sit in my place
16 and testify against me.
17 JUDGE KWON: Sir --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything can be checked out. It
19 will only take you 24 hours. You can get a list of all the names buried.
20 JUDGE KWON: Sir, please calm down.
21 Mr. Karadzic, this -- as I told you several times, this is not a
22 place for you to make a statement. You said there was never a female
23 body found or the body of a minor child under the age of 16 found during
24 the exhumation. You should put your statement to the witness, whether
25 the witness agrees with it or not. Your statement does not help us at
Page 1390
1 all.
2 Sir, do you agree with that? Whether there was never a female
3 body or the body of a minor child found during the exhumation.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I've just told you.
5 Everything is accessible to you in Potocari. You have the names and
6 surnames written up on the slabs. The planes have started flying, so
7 people can bring in the names of the people. I did not conduct the
8 exhumations, whether there were women or not, but 66 women were killed.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] OTP 65 ter 00053 next, please, and
10 then that will be all for today. The OTP document 65 ter 00053. This is
11 the transcript of a meeting of the popular Assembly of Republika Srpska,
12 the 33rd session held on the 21st of July, 1993. And I'd like to draw
13 your attention to the last -- it hasn't come up on our screens yet but
14 the last sentence. Perhaps I can read it.
15 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, I take it that you do not object to
16 the admission of the last document, his order.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE KWON: And the number is?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D43.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be the last question, Mr. Karadzic,
21 for today.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I'll read it out. It's on page 02150376. 12031576 and 77. I
25 think it's the same page in English. I'll read out what I said at the
Page 1391
1 Assembly meeting. Once again not to be broadcast -- not for the media.
2 It's not propaganda.
3 If you take this with -- situation with Srebrenica, I think that
4 it's a point to us, because if we had entered Srebrenica, people would
5 have entered whose families had been killed. 1.200 Serbs were killed up
6 until 1993. Up until the end, it was 3.500. So 1.200 Serbs were killed.
7 There would have been blood up to our knees and we could have lost the
8 country because of that. That is why I consider that Morillon saved us,
9 not the Muslims, when he entered Srebrenica.
10 A. You're right, sir, yes. Morillon did save you. You're quite
11 right there. Morillon -- it was in front of Morillon's eyes that the
12 shooting took place. I think there was a man from UNPROFOR who was
13 wounded as well, and Morillon watched it all. Yes, that's right.
14 Morillon was very good for you. And you mentioned Cutileiro, that
15 Cutileiro of yours.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, do you accept that up until that point around
17 Srebrenica, 1.200 Serbs were killed and who killed them, I ask you?
18 A. Do you know how many Muslims were killed?
19 Q. That's not what I'm asking you now.
20 A. I don't know. I came to Srebrenica from another municipality. I
21 have no idea what happened in Srebrenica, just as you don't know what
22 happened in my village. But, of course, you know everything because you
23 were the commander. You were the commander. You issued the orders. You
24 were the number-one man.
25 JUDGE KWON: We will adjourn for today.
Page 1392
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to request that the
2 OTP 65 ter document 00053, pages 376 and 377, with the marked text that I
3 read out, be tendered into evidence, please, as a Defence exhibit.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D44.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, it must have been a long day for you.
8 We will continue tomorrow. In the meantime, I would request to you not
9 to discuss with anybody about your evidence.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is not tiring
11 to me, because I want to show what kind of man he is that did all this,
12 and now he pretends to be innocent. Well, why have you then, gentlemen,
13 brought in an innocent man? Why have you brought in an innocent man here
14 if he's innocent? It's not an effort to me. I can sit here for three
15 days and nights if need be.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We will continue tomorrow, tomorrow
17 afternoon, 2.15.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.
19 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day
20 of April, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.
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