1 Monday, 28 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everybody.
6 I'd like to apologise to all for our belated start due to some
7 technical difficulties, which I understand have been resolved.
8 There are several matters before we begin the evidence of the
9 next witness. I would like to address three matters first.
10 First, Mr. Karadzic, with regard to the time available to the
11 accused for cross-examination of Witness KDZ-185, the Chamber advised the
12 parties informally on Thursday last week that a maximum of five hours
13 would be permitted for cross-examination of this witness. The Chamber's
14 assessment that a maximum of five hours is a reasonable time for
15 cross-examination was made on the basis of the criteria we have set out
16 previously, and in particular Mr. Karadzic's own estimate of the time
17 needed for cross-examination, Prosecution's estimate of its time needed
18 for direct examination, the Prosecution's estimate of its time needed for
19 direct examination in addition to the witness's two written statements,
20 as well as the scope and subject matter of the witness's anticipated
22 And as for the time needed for the next witness, Mr. Mandic,
23 considering the following factors: Number 1, the witness testified for
24 10 days in Krajisnik case, the Prosecution requested a minimum of eight
25 hours to conduct its direct examination of this witness and the large
1 number of documents of exhibits and its page numbers the Prosecution
2 plans to introduce through this witness, the Chamber is of the view that,
3 in total, 20 hours is a reasonable time for the accused's
4 cross-examination of this particular witness.
5 The last matter I would like to deal with in public session is
6 the scheduling.
7 So as you are aware, the Chamber is constrained by the demands on
8 courtroom spaces of all the trials that are currently ongoing. The
9 Registry is, therefore, responsible for ensuring that all trials can sit
10 in accordance with the needs of the respective Chambers, and we are
11 grateful for their efforts to accommodate our requests.
12 In general, it is this Chamber's preference to sit for morning
13 rather than afternoon sessions. And if possible, when there's a
14 courtroom space available both in the morning and afternoon, our
15 preference is to sit from 9.00 to 3.00 p.m., as we originally planned to
16 do so today.
17 I note that on 15th and 16th July, it would appear that this is
18 the situation, and I would therefore like to advise the parties of our
19 intention to sit from 9.00 to 3.00 on those days, subject to any further
20 changes to be advised.
21 And as for today, given the delay in starting, we'll sit until --
22 during the first session until 11.00, and the next session being 11.30 to
23 1.00, and we have one hour lunch break, and we'll sit from 2.00 to 3.30.
24 That said, shall we go into private session briefly.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 4162-4165 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Do you have anything to raise?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning to all.
7 As you know, my position, the position of the Defence, was
8 presented by Mr. Robinson, along with my own position, that it is only
9 victims who are entitled to protective measures. However, that's not
10 what I wanted to talk about. I want to talk about time.
11 I'm afraid that the Trial Chamber is not going to get the right
12 impression as far as Sarajevo is concerned. The witnesses we've had so
13 far have shown more what they do not know rather than what they do know.
14 They could not tell the Trial Chamber who was where, and what people were
15 doing, and so on. These are key matters. We now have the opportunity of
16 hearing a witness whose job it was to know who was where, and who was
17 shooting, and what people were doing. Therefore, I believe that five
18 hours is insufficient.
19 And also 40 hours for the next witness is insufficient, because
20 the next witness is a participant, a participant over all of five or six
21 years. He knows what happened before the war and what happened during
22 the war itself.
23 So I kindly ask you to reconsider your decision. May it please
24 not be a definite decision? If there is a chance -- or, rather, if the
25 Trial Chamber views that things are moving smoothly, perhaps I could be
1 given more time. Thank you.
2 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, that is the position. The
3 President made that plain when he first spoke about giving limitations on
4 time for cross-examination. It's bound to be flexible because it may
5 well be that at the end of a well-conducted cross-examination, the
6 Trial Chamber is of the view that you genuinely haven't finished all the
7 matters that you need to put, in which case proper consideration would
8 always be given to extending that time. It's going to be reasonably
9 flexible. There can be no guarantees. But these are not figures which
10 are absolutely set in stone from the outset. These are the likely
11 figures to be reconsidered.
12 JUDGE BAIRD: Dr. Karadzic, I was about to use the very phrase
13 that my Brother Morrison used. These figures are not set in stone and
14 they're flexible. And depending on all circumstances, we would be
15 prepared to extend.
16 JUDGE KWON: However, it will be the case when you will not have
17 wasted the time given to you.
18 That said, we'll draw the curtain and briefly go into closed
19 session to allow the witness to enter the courtroom.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President --
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Let's go to closed session.
22 [Closed session]
11 Page 4168 redacted. Closed session.
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session.
8 If you could kindly take the solemn declaration.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: KDZ-185
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Witness. You may make yourself
15 comfortable, please.
16 For the public information, we allowed this witness some kinds of
17 protective measures, pursuant to Rule 70, to which the accused has
19 Yes, Ms. Edgerton, it's now your witness.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 I wonder if I could ask that 65 ter 90181 be called up, please.
22 And your indulgence. And, of course, not broadcast publicly. Thank you.
23 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
24 Q. Now, Witness, in light of the measures that have been granted by
25 this Chamber, I will be addressing you by a pseudonym, that being the
1 pseudonym 185. I'll call you Witness 185.
2 So, now, Witness 185, do you see an image on the screen in front
3 of you?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps Madam Registrar [sic] could just give a
6 little bit of guidance on how to operate this microphone to Witness 185.
7 JUDGE KWON: I think what matters is not the witness's
8 microphone, but others. So my understanding is that when the voice
9 distortion is also allowed to the witness, the others should turn off
10 their microphone when the witness is answering.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Absolutely. Thank you, Your Honour.
12 And now perhaps I could follow up with my initial question.
13 Q. Witness, the image on the screen in front of you, do you see your
15 A. Yes, I can see it perfectly.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
17 So then would this be able to be the first Prosecution exhibit,
18 filed under seal?
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit P1047,
21 under seal.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
23 If we could now move into private session, Your Honours, for the
24 next series of questions.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll go into private session.
1 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Chamber]
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in private session, Ms. Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Witness, is it correct that you have given statements under oath
5 in relation to matters relevant to the case that brings us here today on
6 two previous occasions, one in the year 2000 and one in the year 2009?
7 A. Yes, indeed.
8 Q. And in preparing for your testimony today, have you had an
9 opportunity to review those statements and a number of the documents
10 associated with those statements or referred to in those statements?
11 A. Yes, and perhaps you can also show them to me.
12 Q. Perhaps I could ask you the question a slightly different way.
13 During our meeting yesterday to prepare for your testimony today,
14 did you have occasion to review those statements that you had given and a
15 number of the documents referred to in those statements?
16 A. Yes, indeed. This happened yesterday, yes.
17 Q. Do you have any changes, corrections, or other additions to make
18 to those statements?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And if asked the same questions today, would you give the same
21 answers as contained in those statements?
22 A. Yes, I believe so.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Witness.
24 Then, Your Honour, if I could ask that 65 ter 10029, being the
25 statement of 2000, and 22872, being the statement of 2009, be marked as
1 the next exhibits. And there are a number of associated exhibits. I
2 could read those 65 ter numbers out if it assists.
3 JUDGE KWON: You're going to use -- you're going to put none of
4 them to the witness today?
5 MS. EDGERTON: I will be putting a small number of the associated
6 exhibits that were mentioned in those statements to the witness today for
7 further amplification, and a small number of additional exhibits, all of
8 which were part of our initial notification.
9 JUDGE KWON: So we'll admit two statements first and then we'll
10 deal with the remainder at the end of the witness's testimony in direct.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
12 65 ter 10029 will be Exhibit P1048, under seal. And 65 ter 22872
13 will be Exhibit P1049, also under seal.
14 JUDGE KWON: I should note that the exhibit number for the
15 pseudonym sheet should have been P1047.
16 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
17 MS. EDGERTON: And that being under seal as well.
18 Perhaps then we could move into public session and I could read a
19 short summary of the witness's written evidence.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton, we're now in open session.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
24 I'll now read a summary of the witness's written evidence.
25 This witness, KDZ-185, was in Sarajevo in 1993. He observed
1 shelling against the civilian population of the city. The daily average
2 of shells impacting in the city during his first three months was
3 approximately 1.200. Some of the shelling was random and did not appear
4 to target military objects. Shelling of civilian populated areas was not
5 always heavy, but consisted of one or two random rounds. The witness
6 concluded that this was intended to maintain a feeling of terror. The
7 witness concludes that some shelling was in retaliation for events
9 On 21 March 1993, approximately 2.400 shells were fired,
10 including 400 on the old town of Sarajevo alone. The retaliatory
11 bombardment was preceded by a Bosnian Army attack on the Pale road Serb
12 supply line. The witness also recalls the shelling of a football match
13 in Dobrinja on 1 June 1993. A crater analysis determined the shells were
14 probably fired by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps from Lukavica Barracks.
15 The witness also saw that civilians were targeted by Serb
16 snipers. Around Sarajevo, civilians erected make-shift protection
17 barriers at junctions particularly exposed to sniping. The witness
18 recalls that the airport runway was the only passage in and out of
19 Sarajevo and was used to bring in personnel or equipment, as well as by
20 persons trying to escape. Bosnian Serb forces shot indiscriminately at
21 people running across the runway at night. A third of those killed or
22 wounded were women, children, and the elderly.
23 The witness states that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps enjoyed
24 superiority in weaponry around Sarajevo. Sarajevo Romanija Corps gun
25 positions around Sarajevo were lightly guarded, had fixed positions, and
1 stored ammunitions immediately next to the battery.
2 The witness concluded that General Galic exercised effective
3 control over his forces, including snipers. He based this on, among
4 other things, the fact that Galic could effectively implement cease-fires
5 and the integrated wire communication system he observed at
6 Sarajevo Romanija Corps artillery positions around the city. Protests
7 were made to General Galic about the Bosnian Serbs' shelling and sniping
8 of civilians in writing, in person, and through the media.
9 And that is the summary of the written evidence.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 MS. EDGERTON: If we could now please go into private session.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
14 JUDGE KWON: We are now in private session, Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
16 Q. Witness, the first question I'd like to ask you is: Upon your
17 arrival in the city of Sarajevo, did you make any observations as to the
18 safety and security situation in and around the city?
19 A. When I arrived in Sarajevo (redacted), I believe
20 that the city was under siege (redacted), and the city was
21 cut off from the rest of the world, apart from a road -- military convoys
22 that were managed by UNHCR as well as other international humanitarian
23 organisations, as well as the area that was under the supervision of
24 UNPROFOR on Sarajevo Airport. And this siege was staged by the Serbian
25 Army, and the objective was to cut off the town and to make sure that it
1 could not obtain any supplies, and therefore this would allow them to put
2 pressure on the Bosnian government and to surrender.
3 The city, especially at night, seemed to be completely dead,
4 given that there was rarely any electricity, as it was one of the means
5 of pressure, namely, to cut off electricity. This means that the city
6 could not be supplied with electricity as well as with heating, for using
7 electricity for heating, and it also means that there was no way electric
8 pumps could be used to supply water in the various dwellings in Sarajevo,
9 which means that at night the city was completely dark and seemed to be
10 totally deserted. And there were only fires that one could hear here and
11 there, and there were sometimes artillery fire as well.
12 As far as the daylight situation was concerned, the situation was
13 even more dire because we could see the population was trying to survive,
14 and they were moving about trying to find water in the Miljacka River
15 which goes through the center of Sarajevo or they were using wells that
16 were still operating. They were also trying to look for supplies in
17 supplies centres that were set up in the city thanks to humanitarian aid.
18 The inhabitants of Sarajevo were under constant pressure, because
19 depending on the way snipers were operating as well as depending on the
20 direction of artillery fire, they did not know whether they were going to
21 survive much longer because they were one of the prime objectives or
22 targets of fire.
23 This was the situation that I witnessed when I arrived (redacted)
24 (redacted) in Sarajevo.
25 Q. Now, in this answer, you've made several points that I'd like to
1 come back to over the course of your testimony today, and I'll do that by
2 dealing with some of the themes you've spoken about one by one, and by
3 referring back to the statements you've given earlier.
4 First, I'd like to go back to a point in your statement of 2000,
5 on page 13, paragraph 3, (redacted) Now, in regard there -- in
6 regard to sniping, you noted in the original document:
7 "I think that it was important for the Serb side to exercise a
8 permanent pressure of terror. They would do sniping, therefore, from a
9 certain number of positions (redacted)
10 Now -- and in the same document, slightly further at page 16,
11 paragraph 8, you extensively described the effect of shelling on the
12 civilian population of Sarajevo, noting:
13 "As the bombardments coming from the Serbs were completely random
14 and," and I'll quote in your language:
15 [Interpretation] "... and on the town they had not any military
16 targets in mind, which means that it nurtured a climate of terror amongst
17 the population."
18 [In English] Now, when you used this word "terror" as you did on
19 two occasions in respect of both shelling and snipping, what did you mean
20 to convey?
21 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
22 I would ask that this question and answer be in public session.
23 I don't think that this is identifying the witness.
24 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON: It's drawn specifically referencing a document
1 under seal, Your Honour, and when the question is drawn from that
2 document under seal, I think it's appropriate that the examination -- the
3 question remain in private session as well.
4 JUDGE KWON: But when you asked the witness to expand on the
5 meaning of "terror," and when we hear the answers from the witness, I
6 don't think there would be any danger of revealing the identity of the
7 witness. So would you agree to go back to open session, ask the last
8 question again, and hear the witness's answer?
9 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE KWON: Let's do that.
11 We go back to open session.
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 MS. EDGERTON:
15 Q. Now, Witness, in your previous statements, when you used this
16 word "terror" in respect of both shelling and sniping, what did you mean
17 to convey?
18 A. Well, I believe that this word "terror" applied very well to the
19 situation of civilian populations, because by nature they do not have any
20 weapons and they cannot retaliate. When you are in a situation whereby
21 you find yourself in a situation where at any time you could be severely
22 hurt or killed by a sniper or by a shell that could fall anywhere in the
23 city, this nurtures this feeling of terror. (redacted)
24 (redacted) When you have an experience in that field and when you
25 have weapons that you can use to defend yourself, and you know that your
1 life is at stake, the situation is altogether different compared to the
2 situation of a civilian, when you don't have any weapons to defend
3 yourself. And this is why I believe that in that case you are under a
4 feel of terror.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
6 Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MS. EDGERTON: There's one line that I think needs redaction,
9 Your Honour.
10 JUDGE KWON: That will be taken care of.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Lines 23 and 24, the answer in that sentence.
12 JUDGE KWON: And if you could give me the reference number of
13 page numbers and para number of the translated English -- from the
14 English translation later.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, Your Honour. If the page numbers differ
16 between the two versions, I'll say that. Otherwise, where I don't say it
17 and only provide one reference number, the page numbers are the same as
18 between the two versions.
19 So I've referred to page 13, paragraph 3, and page 16,
20 paragraph 8, and that's the same in both versions.
21 JUDGE KWON: I'm afraid we don't have para 8 on page 16. Could
22 you check it later on?
23 MS. EDGERTON: In that case, I apologise, and I certainly will,
24 Your Honour.
25 Q. Now, Witness, did you perceive any over-arching objective to the
1 shelling and sniping?
2 A. I believe that all those actions which had for a prime objective
3 to terrorise the civilian population had one single objective. They
4 wanted for the civilian population to give up, from a psychological point
5 of view, and they wanted to make sure that the party taking the siege
6 make the other party give up.
7 Q. And when you say "they," who are you referring to?
8 A. I'm not quite sure when I said "they," actually.
9 Q. You've just said:
10 "They wanted for the civilian population to give up, from a
11 psychological point of view, and they wanted to make sure that the
12 party," your indulgence for just a moment, "taking the siege would make
13 the other party give up."
14 So when you say "they" in that regard, who are you referring to?
15 A. I'm referring to those who were holding the siege; namely, the
16 Serbian Army, it goes without saying.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Now to move on to another subject,
18 being shelling, and may I move into private session for the next
19 question, please, Your Honour?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
1 A. From the beginning of the siege in Sarajevo, there was a
2 monitoring system that was in place with a UN military observer, and
3 their main mission was to report on shelling activities or fire
4 activities of Serbian and Bosnian forces coming from the city and coming
5 from outside the city. (redacted) had a network of observer that were on
6 the Bosnian side, (redacted) had observation positions called Papa and
7 Presidency, and (redacted) a network for the Serbian side outside of the
8 city with observation post called Lima, like "Lukavica." And those
9 observation posts were reporting on shelling that had been carried out by
10 the one or the other belligerent party, based on information such as the
11 fires, the outcreps, as well as the arrival of shells. And they were
12 called increps. So outcreps and increps. And based on this information,
13 (redacted) a very clear idea as to the shelling activity of the various
14 forces that were at hand.
17 A. Based on the reports that we would receive, (redacted) confirmations
18 on information that (redacted) on the various artillery input and
19 heavy weapons that the Serbian forces had, as well as the Bosnian forces
20 had, and (redacted) confirmation that there were quite a lot of heavy
21 weapons owned by the Serbs outside of Sarajevo and this was in support of
22 the siege of Sarajevo.
23 Q. In terms of the type of shelling coming into the city, was there
24 any variation?
25 A. Well, indeed, yes. From the Serbian side, given that the types
1 of artillery of the Serbian forces, namely, the Republika Srpska, were
2 coming from the former JNA, namely, the Yugoslav Army, they had the
3 typical heavy weaponry, a lot of tanks as well, as well as the -- whereas
4 the Bosnian had an improvised army, if we could say so, because it was
5 created out of nothing, and they had very little heavy weapons. They had
6 mainly infantry units, and they had very little artillery units. (redacted)
7 (redacted) they had a multiple rocket-launcher that
8 they were carrying around the city, but they mainly had mortar shells
9 that they were using as heavy weapons and they did not have any heavy
10 pieces of artillery, unlike the Serbian forces. But I'm talking about
11 Sarajevo itself there.
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session.
18 Let's continue, Ms. Edgerton.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
20 Q. In terms of the manner of shelling into the city, did you see
21 fire -- in terms of the manner of shelling into the city, what types of
22 incoming fire did you see?
23 A. I saw two types of artillery shelling. The first type was truly
24 military actions, traditional artillery use just to support a military
25 action. Thus, I saw one of the Serbian Army's actions on -- that put me
1 aside, where there were tanks attacking with shelling. But that was a
2 truly military action, and I would say that this had a military aim.
3 They wanted to win ground.
4 The second type of artillery use was to increase psychological
5 pressure on the population and also on the Bosnian government, so then
6 they were just firing at random on the city in a totally random fashion,
7 and that is something which I had the opportunity to see, since I was
8 stationed in the city. So we were also exposed to these random
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
11 If I could please go into private session to refer to an answer
12 the witness has given in that regard and ask the next question.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
15 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
17 Q. Just a few moments ago, Witness, you referred to something called
18 outcreps and increps. Do you remember that?
21 (redacted) the reports from the UN observers, and these
22 were very detailed reports. They detailed the outgoing shellings, and
23 also stating the type of weapons used, MROs and guns and anti-tank
24 weapons and anti-aircraft weapons, so that was the outgoing shelling.
25 And the second category was the ingoing [as interpreted] shelling when
1 they could determine the type of ammunition which was arriving on the
2 targets, when there were such targets. And these two categories of
3 observations were subdivided or specified as coming from the Serbian side
4 or coming from the Bosnian side. This, of course, was in principle, what
5 arrived from the Serbian side was aimed at the Bosnian side, and
6 vice versa.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
8 Could I please ask for 65 ter 09583, a Sector Sarajevo sitrep for
9 the time-period of 20 to 21 March 1993. Thank you.
10 Q. Witness, is this one of the -- first of all, do you recognise
11 this document?
15 MS. EDGERTON: If we could please go to page 3. Thank you.
16 Q. Now, this document, which reads "Daily Sarajevo Shootrep/Increp,"
17 is that the "increp/outcrep" report you referred to earlier in your
19 A. Yes, that is quite correct. You can see first the outcreps, the
20 outgoing fire, and then after that you see the increps, and there is a
21 separation between coming from the Serb side and coming from the Bosnian
22 side and the type of material used.
23 Q. Now, at the bottom of this page, I note paragraph 4 reads:
24 "The following incoming fire was observed on Bosnian-controlled
1 And it lists artillery at 1.570; mortar, 532.
2 And if we could go to page 4, please. "Tank, 60," on page 4.
3 And the next question I would like to ask you, then: Does this
4 document and this information relate to any situation you've previously
5 given about?
6 A. Yes, that is quite correct. If you look at the dates that
7 corresponds to the time when there was a peak of shelling and that I
8 observed myself, and that peak occurred at the moment when there was the
9 attack of a Bosniak brigade to the Serb supply line, and in fact there
10 was then -- on the side of the Serbs, they defended themselves, and they
11 then shelled the city and the Bosniak positions in the city on the
13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
14 Could this document please be given the next Prosecution exhibit
16 JUDGE KWON: It doesn't have to be put under seal; is that
18 MS. EDGERTON: If I could just double-check, please, the first
19 page of the document.
20 I don't see a need for it to be under seal.
11 Page 4186 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that exhibit will be admitted as Exhibit P1050.
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. Witness, did you see any particular peaks in the shelling during
19 your time in Sarajevo?
20 A. I just mentioned the preceding case, this peak which followed on
21 an attack by a Bosnian brigade. I did witness certain accompanying
22 actions or accompanying military action, but during the first months I
23 was staying in Sarajevo, I saw that pressure was kept at a high level
24 continuously, and, as I said, the average number of shells was about 1200
25 on the city, and that really kept a climate of terror. Of course, there
1 were a number of shellings which were purely military and which had
2 military targets and others which had -- which were only aimed at
3 creating the psychological pressure and terror which I already described.
4 Other examples, well, I'm thinking of what I could remember. I know that
5 there have been other cases. When there were visits from authorities
6 from the outside who came to visit us, we had the impression that both
7 parties tried to show that Sarajevo was constantly under fire, that there
8 was a war going on, and they were trying to prove -- well, they were
9 trying to provoke each other without us being aware who was the one who
10 started it, and this led to artillery shelling which was constant whilst
11 the visitors were present in Sarajevo. I remember one day - I think it
12 was the end of January - when the responsible of the UNHCR, Ms. Ogata,
13 was present, and while she was there, there was artillery shelling going
14 on nonstop, which could really give the impression that war was raging,
15 there was a raging war in Sarajevo.
16 Q. So you've just spoken of two peaks in shelling, one in the end of
17 March and one in the end of January, corresponding to different factors.
18 Do you have any other examples of peaks in shelling in that regard?
19 A. Yes. We could also establish a parallel between the negotiations
20 which were ongoing either in New York or in Geneva, and this often led to
21 greater violence in Sarajevo, probably because one party or the other
22 wanted to show that things had to change and that negotiations were
24 I should also like to note that this violence peak which I just
25 referred to at the end of March happened at a moment when the majority of
1 the Bosnian government was absent because I think they were in New York
2 at that point in time, so we still have to see whether the aim was not on
3 the part of the Bosnians to show that they still had resources left and
4 that they wanted to go to negotiation, but this is just speculation on my
5 part. The only ones who know for sure are the authorities concerned.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
7 Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry for the time I'm taking, Your Honours,
10 but it is, as you can appreciate it, a sensitive situation.
11 JUDGE BAIRD: We do appreciate that, Madam. We do appreciate
12 that, we do.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
14 I would like to ask if we could go into private session again,
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
11 Pages 4190-4192 redacted. Private session.
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
7 Witness, can you please put your pseudonym, which is KDZ-185, and
8 the date of today, which is 28th of June, 2010, on this map, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
10 JUDGE KWON: Excellent. Both maps, marked and unmarked, will be
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The annotated map will be
13 Exhibit P1051, under seal. And the un-annotated map will be
14 Exhibit P1052.
15 JUDGE KWON: Why do you have to put it under seal, Ms. Edgerton?
16 MS. EDGERTON: With respect to the marked map, Your Honour?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Could I respond to you on that after the break,
19 please, Your Honour?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 I note the time. We go back to open session.
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break for half an hour.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.
2 JUDGE KWON: Since there's a matter the Chamber discussed with
3 the parties, we suggested starting in the absence of the witness.
4 Shall we go into private session.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 4195-4203 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE KWON: My apologies again, Mr. Witness. We had some
13 administrative matters to deal with, so we started a bit late again.
14 Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps, then, we could deal with -- in open
16 session with the map that we've just concluded with, Your Honour, to
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 MS. EDGERTON: And it could be assigned an exhibit number.
20 JUDGE KWON: They were.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
22 I would ask, please, if we can have the map that's 65 ter --
23 pardon me, P1021 brought up on the screen. 65 ter 11789, it formerly
24 was, and it appears at page 24 in the Prosecution's map book.
25 Q. Mr. Witness, do you see an image of a map on the screen in front
1 of you?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Do you recall having viewed this map during the course of your
4 interview in 2009 and in preparation for your testimony today?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. I'd like to draw your attention and everyone's attention to the
7 text box that -- the small text box that appears at the right-hand side
8 of the page, not the ones on the right edge of the screen, but the
9 smaller one before. Yes.
10 And if we could -- we have a translation and an enlargement of
11 that text box available as item 26 in the OTP's map book. I'll come up
12 with the 65 ter number momentarily just to be able to display the
13 translation of that item, Your Honour. The magnification of this is
14 actually quite good. 65 ter 13637.
15 And once we have the item number, I can deal with the questions.
16 Thank you.
17 Now, we see on this map, Sarajevo Romanija Corps map which dates
18 from 1994, in this text box an overview of equipment under control within
19 the 20-kilometre area and outside the 20-kilometre area.
20 And, Your Honours, I would like to ask a question now that refers
21 specifically to a passage from one of the witness's statements given
22 earlier on.
23 May we go into private session?
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 [Private session]
11 Page 4206 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now back in open session.
4 Ms. Edgerton.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
6 Q. Witness, in your statement of the year 2000, page 15 -- e-court
7 page 15, paragraph 4, you refer to weapons held by the warring factions
8 and set out some certain numbers held by the forces around Sarajevo,
10 [Interpretation] "Around Sarajevo, there were some 300 heavy
11 weapons of a calibre above 14.5 millimetres, ranging to 152 millimetres,
12 including MRLs, but most of the weapons were artillery guns, anti-tank
13 guns, or 102-millimetre and 152-millimetre guns."
14 [In English] Now, Witness, do you see any correspondence here in
15 this document between the numbers of weapons held by the
16 Sarajevo Romanija Corps and the information you gave in the year 2000?
17 A. If I refer back to the chart that is in front of me on the
18 screen, it is dated 1994, and I was not in Sarajevo at the time. But I
19 note that the figures in the 20-kilometre zone roughly match the figures
20 I had in mind when I arrived in Sarajevo early 1993. Of course, there
21 must have been fluctuations in between the dates, but it's roughly in
22 keeping with my estimate. And you can see in the chart that are only
23 mentioned weapons above a calibre above the heavy machine-gun which are
24 of a 14.5-millimetre calibre.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, moving --
1 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, do we have the year noted in this
2 document? Is it 1994? Where do you have it? Or, Mr. Witness, how did
3 you understand this to be related to 1994?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is what the Prosecutor
5 just said two minutes ago. She said that this was a chart dated 1994.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 MS. EDGERTON: It's following the creation of the total exclusion
8 zone in February 1994, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much.
10 MS. EDGERTON:
11 Q. To move on to another subject, then, Witness, the subject of
12 sniping: In your statement of the year 2000, e-court page 13,
13 paragraph 2, you noted:
14 [Interpretation] "I have never been to sniper nests, but we had
15 information as to the way they had been set up."
16 [In English] Could you explain what that information was that you
17 had as to the way they had been set up?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we move to
19 private session?
20 JUDGE KWON: By all means.
21 Let's go into private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 4209-4211 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
22 MS. EDGERTON:
23 Q. I'd like to turn, please, to an incident which took place in
24 Dobrinja on the 1st of June, 1993, which you've referred to in your
25 previous statements, a shelling of a football game. Do you recall that
1 incident, Witness?
2 A. Yes, indeed.
3 Q. Did you have occasion to attend the scene?
4 A. Yes. Given the high number of losses and the fact that a lot of
5 children had been affected, and I was also available at the time, so I
6 went on-site to see what had happened.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Could I ask, please, now for 65 ter 11383, page 9.
8 Thank you.
9 Q. Do you see, Witness, the document on the screen in front of you?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. A crater analysis report on a mortar attack on Dobrinja, June the
12 1st at 1020. Do you recognise this document?
13 A. Yes, and I've seen it before.
14 Q. And what do you recognise it to be?
15 Madam Usher, could you scroll down in the document?
16 A. It is a report that was made by an (redacted) who went on
17 site in order to look at the crater to see what sort of shells fell, in
18 order to see the direction from which those shells were coming from, and
19 to also determine, if possible, the distance.
20 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
21 MS. EDGERTON: If we could -- if I could ask at this moment for
22 private session, Your Honour. I would like to ask a question of the
23 witness that may relate to his position.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll go into private session.
25 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honour.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
23 Q. Can you look, please, Witness, at the following two pages
24 attached to this crater analysis report, and tell us whether you have any
25 comment on these two pages' diagrams.
1 A. As for the first page, it seems to be accurate regarding the
2 point of impact of the shells that fell in this area, and you can see the
3 general direction of the fire, and so we can deduce from there where was
4 the point where those shells were fires. But there is some margin of
5 error, but we can see that the angle is the south-east, so it was in the
6 direction of the south-east and it was coming from the
7 Republika Srpska -- it was on the side of the Republika Srpska.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
9 I wonder if these pages 9, 10, and 11, which form Appendix A to
10 this document, could be admitted, please, only these three pages.
11 JUDGE KWON: You're suggesting tendering only three pages of this
12 document; is that correct ?
13 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
14 JUDGE KWON: 9, 10, and 11. Very well. This is -- yes, we'll
15 admit those three pages.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1053, Your Honours.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
18 Q. Moving on --
19 A. You asked me to talk about the following two pages, but I've only
20 seen one on the screen so far.
21 There we go, we have the second one.
22 Well, I would have the same comments regarding the second page.
23 Very well, thank you.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you very much, Witness.
25 JUDGE KWON: We appreciate your precision, Mr. Witness.
1 MS. EDGERTON:
2 Q. Moving on to your statement of 2009: In response to questions
3 about documents emanating from the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, you said, and
4 I'll quote:
5 [Interpretation] "As far as I'm concerned, this is additional evidence that
6 the Bosnian Serb commander or commanding structure was very centralized and
7 no action on the ground, namely, shelling or sniping, was carried out without
8 an authorisation coming probably from the highest level of the hierarchy."
9 [In English] Do you recall giving this answer?
10 A. Yes, of course, (redacted)
11 Q. Could you expand on this answer, please? And perhaps I could
12 guide you with this first question. What exactly about these documents
13 led you to this conclusion?
14 A. You're talking about the reports that were drafted by
15 General Galic to his superiors?
16 Q. Correct.
17 A. Very well. I learned on that occasion, during the 2009 interview,
18 that General Galic, as a highly professional military man, reported to
19 his command every evening about everything that had happened within the
20 SRK, and about the various meetings that he may have had with different
21 persons. He was also talking about the various meetings that he would
22 have had during the day. So this is a proof that the military
23 organisation was working very well.
24 The other point that shows that there was a very good hierarchy,
25 which is what you should have in a professional army, and the reason why
1 it shows that it was working very well is that every time there was
2 negotiations at the airport, as one knows, it was UNPROFOR that was in
3 charge of security. Whether there were delegations, Croatian, or
4 Serbian, in Lukavica or they were coming either from Lukavica or from
5 Kiseljak, I don't quite remember, but we would take charge of the
6 transport from those sites, and there was never any fire against UN
7 convoys that were taking those people to the location where negotiations
8 would take place.
9 And after the negotiations, whatever the time that negotiations
10 would be concluded, whether it was early or very late at night, there was
11 also no problem for those delegations to go back to the location where we
12 had taken charge of them in the first place, so whether it was Lukavica
13 or any other location. And most of those negotiations were organised in
14 order to set up a cease-fire that was more or less long, depending on the
15 will of the various warring parties, and we noticed that when there was a
16 cease-fire that was assigned, the shelling would almost cease immediately
17 to the second as soon as the cease-fire had been agreed upon, which
18 showed that the command system from both sides, actually, was working
19 very well. It also showed that the decision was made at corps level.
20 But I believe that General Galic - and in fact I've seen that in light of
21 reports he drafted - General Galic would not have failed to report to his
22 superiors before taking any initiative.
23 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton and Mr. Robinson, unless there's a
24 serious objection, I would tell the Registry to redact the second part of
25 line 2 of page 57. But I take it the words that appears in line 18 on
1 page 57 would be okay.
2 Let's continue.
3 MS. EDGERTON:
4 Q. When you said that -- in your answer -- in your 2009 statement,
5 when you said that shelling and sniping, in particular, would not take
6 place without an authorisation coming from the highest level in the
7 hierarchy, were you referring to specific shelling and sniping incidents,
8 then, individual incidents?
9 A. No, I was talking about this from a general point of view. And
10 as for specific incidents, what was quite telling is that all shelling or
11 all sniping would stop as soon as a cease-fire had been agreed upon. I
12 was actually surprised, myself, because I felt or I thought that snipers
13 were far less controlled than they were. In fact, they were perfectly
15 And I should like to add something that I forgot to say earlier
16 on, that from a general point of view when talking about the
17 Army of Republika Srpska, as I said, it was derived directly from the
18 Yugoslav Army, and as I was saying, the Republika Srpska had been very
19 based, if I could say, in a culture where there was very little
20 initiative at lower levels in the hierarchy.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, that will conclude my
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
24 Then we'll come to your associated exhibits. You're going to
25 tender all of them?
1 MS. EDGERTON: There's actually one I'd like to withdraw.
2 JUDGE KWON: Is it, by any chance, 8191? No, I'm sorry.
3 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to withdraw 14344.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 Is there any objection, Mr. Robinson?
6 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll accept, but for that 14344, all of the
8 associated exhibits will be admitted, and the Court Deputy will assign
9 the number and circulate them in due course.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
11 JUDGE KWON: We have about 20 minutes before the second break,
12 Mr. Karadzic. Do you like to begin your cross-examination?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's not that I have this
14 burning desire to do so, but it's for the Trial Chamber to decide.
15 Whatever you decide is fine with me.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's begin your cross-examination. However,
17 while I understand your dissatisfaction with the protective measures, but
18 bear that in mind, it is much better than hearing entire evidence in the
19 closed session. And then I take it you understood what measures should
20 be taken to ask certain categories of questions, so I would expect your
21 co-operation, and I believe that will save our time as well.
22 Let's start.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
1 I shall do my best to put brief questions so that yes or no would
2 suffice as an answer. That should help us finish on time. Therefore, I
3 would like to remind you of some parts of your previous statements.
4 Is it correct that when you first came to our town, that most of
5 the damage had been caused at the front-line, was registered at the
6 front-line, itself?
7 A. I think that according to what I saw, the front-line was rather
8 extensive. If we look at all the damage which had been caused around the
9 airport area, especially, and also around the access to the new town, in
10 the old town it is true that there was less damage, except that the
11 library had been totally destroyed, which was quite significant.
12 Q. Thank you. So you do confirm that most of the buildings had been
13 intact, as you had put it once?
14 A. I can't really say that most of the buildings were intact. For
15 me, "intact" means that there is no trace whatsoever of shelling or of
16 shooting. Most buildings, and especially modern buildings, bore traces
17 of some fire. There were broken windows, window-panes, which clearly
18 showed that shells had fallen either in the vicinity or on the building
19 itself. But as I said earlier on, since most of the artillery shellings
20 were random, most of the buildings were not completely destroyed; far
21 from that, even. But when you want -- when buildings -- when people
22 wanted to destroy buildings, then other measures were used, if we look at
23 what was published in the newspaper "Oslobodjenje".
24 Q. Thank you. (redacted)
1 (redacted) If you wish, I can even
2 give a direct quote.
3 The question was:
4 [In English] "You said that --"
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just let's go back -- go into
6 private session briefly.
7 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
16 "A. Yes. This is in keeping with my prior statement, when I
17 said that the artillery fire on Sarajevo aimed either at supporting
18 proper military actions on the front-line with major destruction of
19 buildings or at having random shelling, which in that case would not
20 destroyed as much."
21 [Interpretation] Is this what you said, Witness?
22 A. Yes, that is what I said. I repeat that most buildings were
23 completely destroyed, except for certain targets which had been decided
24 by I don't know whom. I can quote the newspaper, "Oslobodjenje," I can
25 also quote other sources, but most of the other -- most of the total
1 destructions were not far from the front-line.
2 Q. I have to ask you now: Right now, you added something that you
3 never said before, "totally destroyed." You never said "totally
4 destroyed" before. What was it that led you to say that?
5 A. Between the term "destroyed" and "totally destroyed," there's not
6 a big difference. For me, it is the case when you can no longer live in
7 a house because -- or dwelling because you have no protection left, when
8 the public utilities are no longer available. But, of course, there's a
9 subtle difference between "totally destroyed" and just "destroyed." I
10 just want to say that it is a stronger way of saying exactly the same
12 Q. And what about buildings on which the window-panes were broken;
13 are they just damaged, or destroyed, or totally destroyed?
14 A. No, I explained earlier on that they were just -- these were
15 damaged, but some of the modern buildings of the city of Sarajevo bore
16 traces. Either the window-panes were broken, or there had been fires
17 after the impact of shelling, or there were traces of firing. But people
18 were still living in those buildings, fortunately for them.
19 And I would like to add, to be even more precise, that along the
20 front-line, and especially near Dobrinja and close to the airport, this
21 reminded me of things I saw during the siege of Stalingrad.
22 Q. Can you tell us which buildings in Sarajevo had been totally
24 A. Yes. I already quoted two buildings, the newspaper,
25 "Oslobodjenje," where they only had the underground part where the
1 journalists were working, and I went to see it; the Rainbow Hotel
2 building, which was not far from the place where I was staying, myself,
3 and these buildings were not on the front-line. The library building,
4 well, it was not -- the walls were still standing, but there was nothing
5 much left inside. So this showed that there were clearly-chosen targets
6 for certain reasons. For the Rainbow Hotel, the aim was to get the UN
7 people who were staying there to leave.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. I am not going to state what the situation was in which you had
2 said this, Witness, but can you confirm what you said; namely, that you
3 were familiar with the situation concerning the 10th Mountain Brigade in
5 A. Is that a question? Could you please reformulate your question,
7 Q. Were you familiar with the 10th Mountain Brigade and its
8 commander, Musan Topalovic, nicknamed Caco?
9 A. Yes, I was aware of the various sectors where the various Bosnian
10 brigades were stationed outside Sarajevo, and I knew what the sector of
11 the 10th Mountain Brigade was, of course. I know that for the event we
12 referred to this morning, the 10th Brigade tried to cut off the supply
13 line of the Serbian Army on the road to Pale.
14 Q. Am I right if I say that the area of responsibility of the
15 10th Mountain Brigade that was commanded by Caco was within the town
16 rather than out of town?
17 A. Based on the information I had, yes, they were stationed or at
18 least they were on the front-line, as was the case for all Bosnian
19 brigades which were holding the front-line facing the Serb units.
20 Q. Thank you. Since you mentioned that the objective of their
21 attack was -- or, rather, it was the 21st of that month that you had
22 mentioned -- was to cut off the supply line, what was their ultimate
23 objective? Was it not to take Grbavica, Lukavica, and parts that depend
24 on that supply line ultimately?
25 A. I have no idea about that since I was not a member of the Bosnian
1 command who knew what they were doing. The only thing I saw was that
2 there was an attack of the 10th Mountain Brigade on this supply line.
3 The final aim that -- I was never informed of the final aim by the
4 Bosnian military superiors.
5 Q. Wasn't that objective obvious? If the supply line is being cut
6 off, is that not intended to take away what had been cut off?
7 A. I'm not here to do any strategic -- strategise. I'm just here to
8 tell you what I experienced personally. I will not say any more.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE KWON: I'm noting the time. We'll have a break now.
11 THE ACCUSED: An hour or what?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll have an hour. We'll resume at 2.00.
13 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 2.06 p.m.
15 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness, sir, I will very, very briefly put to you something that
19 you said on earlier occasions, and if you fail to recall that or I need
20 to quote from somewhere, I'll ask for private session. Until then, that
21 will not be necessary.
22 Do you remember saying, about Caco, that this is not a man you
23 would like to meet often?
24 A. Yes, after I met him once.
25 Q. Do you know that he is a well-known criminal, almost like his
1 entire staff?
2 A. I knew that he had some issues with the judicial system
3 beforehand, yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you know that in the end, he organised an armed
5 insurgency against the authorities and he was liquidated? You mentioned
6 that he was liquidated.
7 A. Yes, I know about that. That was after I left Sarajevo.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that his command was at Bistrik, about
9 100 metres from the command of the Egyptian Battalion?
10 A. Yes, his headquarters were, if I remember properly, opposite the
11 barracks where the Egyptian Battalion was based.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you say on certain occasions that you were aware
13 that the Bosnian -- that is, the Muslim side wished to keep Sarajevo in
14 the focus of international attention and present it as a very serious
16 A. Indeed.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you say on certain occasions that you had seen at
18 least one multiple rocket-launcher that was mobile and was moved around
19 different parts of the city? In the possession of the Muslim army, of
21 A. Personally, I did not see this multiple rocket-launcher. I heard
22 it as it fired on several occasions not far from the place where I used
23 to live.
24 Q. Thank you. Is it true that you said on occasion that the Muslim
25 side shot in the back of the UN forces, who were on their way to assist
1 in the repair of power supply lines and other installations?
2 A. Yes, I said so, and I witnessed that.
3 Q. Thank you. Do you recall saying that it was in the interests of
4 the Muslim army that power supply lines should not be repaired and that
5 that was the reason for their action, rather than something personal
6 against you?
7 A. One moment, please. I didn't quite understand your question.
8 You said between the fact that the Muslim or Bosnian army did not want
9 the power supply lines to be repaired -- and then I failed to understand
10 the second part of your question. Would you mind repeating it?
11 Q. That that was the reason why they shot at you, that they wanted
12 to prevent you from assisting in the repair, not that they had anything
13 personal against you.
14 A. I understand better now. Yes, I believe that they wanted to
15 prevent the lines from being repaired. And at any rate, as far as I
16 know, they didn't know I was present, they didn't know I was among the
17 repair team.
18 Q. Thank you. A moment ago, you said that this multiple
19 rocket-launcher was set up in the vicinity of your location so that they
20 would associate their firing position with the UN location and thus stop
21 the Serbs from retaliating or at least have the Serbs take the blame for
22 shooting at the United Nations force?
23 A. No, I do not think so. I will give you some explanations.
24 Indeed, they would use -- or they would get closer to the UN
25 force positions in order to fire, in the hope that the Serbian Army would
1 not fire back at them since they were positioned in the vicinity of UN
2 installations. So as it were, they were seeking shelter behind our very
3 relative humility, because we had wounded and killed among our personnel.
4 Q. Thank you. Did they inform you that before your arrival,
5 General Sidoranko [phoen] had presented such a request to Siber to move
6 closer to the United Nations and fire from there?
7 A. I'm not aware of that, and I do not know a General Sidoranko.
8 Q. Never mind. We have that document in evidence, so I won't
9 insist. Did you say, although it does follow from your confirmation,
10 that it was in the interests of the Muslim side to dramatise the
11 situation in Sarajevo, especially at times of cease-fire, when the media
12 attention towards Sarajevo was lower, that they would intensify even
13 sniper fire against their own people?
14 A. I can't remember what I said exactly in those documents, if any,
15 but I can state this now: I do believe that in order to make up for
16 their inferiority, in military terms, the Bosnian government would carry
17 out a kind of media war.
18 Q. Thank you. And for that purpose, they staged various dramatic
19 incidents around the city?
20 A. That's what I was told, and I believe that I, too, have witnessed
21 such incidents.
22 Q. Thank you. You had one opportunity to eye-witness that a shell
23 targeted a building in Markale, had been fired from Muslim territory,
24 with an error of margin of maximum 300, 400 metres, and it was obvious
25 that the Serbs could not have fired it?
1 A. I did not witness this, this hit, with my own eyes, but I know it
2 reached the courtyard of a residential block not far from the Markale
3 market-place, and there were crater analyses carried out then which,
4 indeed, showed that it was very likely that the shell was fired from a
5 position close to the front-line to the north of the city.
6 Q. Thank you. When was that crater analysis done, in which period?
7 A. Well, I can't remember the exact date right now. But as to the
8 analysis, the crater analysis, it was carried out straight away as soon
9 as the UN, the UNPROFOR, heard of it.
10 Q. Is it of any significance that the analysis was done immediately
11 after the event?
12 A. Yes, indeed, because in this way it could be made sure that there
13 was no meddling with the data on the ground, so that you could have as
14 objective a crater analysis as possible, you couldn't tamper with the
16 Q. Does the site, itself, deteriorate naturally, without any
17 tampering, unless the analysis is done immediately?
18 A. I think that you can remove evidence or traces, for instance,
19 fragments of shells all around, and also the impact of the shell, itself,
20 will fade away with time, as time goes by. So, you know, time does its
21 work, so you have to carry out this type of analysis as quickly as
23 Q. Thank you. There were also protest notes sent to the Army of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina over the targeting of a location just 200 metres away
25 from the PTT building, and the Muslim army was warned not to do that
1 again; is that correct?
11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
12 We go into private session.
13 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
11 Page 4232 redacted. Private session.
7 (redacted) I had been in Sarajevo for a while, and I saw
8 that just about every night there were killed and wounded among the
9 civilian population, children, women, elderly people, due to Serbian
10 fire, flanking fire on the airport, using the part where the people were
11 trying to come in and out of Sarajevo, and I thought this was
12 inadmissible, unacceptable. (redacted)
10 A. Yes, I'm about certain that I said that, because eventually you
11 realise that if the Sarajevo population was generally hostage to the
12 Serbs, because it was a besieged city within the city, there were other
13 hostages, i.e., the Serbian minority held by the Bosnian Muslim
14 authorities, to start with. And this phenomenon recurred later on in
15 spring, when they also held within the city the Bosnian Croats.
16 Q. Thank you. A moment ago, you said the Serbs fired at the runway.
17 Did the Muslims also fire at the runway from Butmir, and did you state so
18 at least on one previous occasion?
19 A. The Bosnian Muslims from Butmir, as far as I know, never fired on
20 Bistrik. I fail to see what you mean.
21 Q. I said "runway," not "Bistrik." "Runway."
22 A. Oh. On the landing strip on the runway, there were some stray
23 shells because the airport was in the very heart of the confrontations
24 between the Serbs and the Muslims. Inevitably, there would be shells
25 landing that could land in the airport area when there was crossfire --
1 when there was an exchange of fire between various parties.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now call up -- and I hope we
3 can now move to open session. Can we call up 1D442.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And while waiting, Witness, can I ask you --
6 JUDGE KWON: Did you want to go back to open session?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I think we may now. I'll be
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. Did you state once that by night, it was not possible to
14 distinguish who was a civilian and who was a soldier among the people who
15 were looking for the runway?
16 A. Yes, indeed.
17 Q. Do you believe that the Serbs would have acted differently if
18 they had been able to distinguish between soldiers and civilians?
19 A. Well, I'm afraid I cannot say anything in this regard. All I can
20 say is I saw civilians, children, women, and the elderly in -- that were
21 killed or injured in the area of the runway of the airport.
22 Q. May I ask you to look at this document now. It's a document from
23 the 10th Mountain Brigade, dated 28th February. This is all you need to
24 see. They notified that on 19 February, between 11.00 and 12.00, an
25 unidentified female person of elderly age was wounded in an attempt to
1 escape to the occupied territory, and in their terminology, "occupied
2 territory" is Grbavica:
3 "Since this is a frequent occurrence and it always happens across
4 the zone held by the HVO, and that all previous attempts were prevented
5 by opening fire and then pulling out the wounded, with danger to the
6 lives of our fighting men, we demand that the necessary action be
7 urgently taken, in terms of security, with HVO units to finally put an
8 end to this."
9 This means that an elderly woman, who was trying to get across to
10 Grbavica, was shot by them. Did you know about such things happening?
11 A. I would like to obtain a translation, either in English or in
12 French, of this document, because unfortunately I do not speak
13 Serbo-Croatian and I'm not able to read it, either, whether it's in Latin
14 alphabet or in Cyrillic.
15 Q. This is indubitably a document from the 10th Mountain Brigade.
16 It was signed by the assistant commander in charge of security,
17 Senad Hasic [phoen]. This is beyond doubt. It's a document obtained by
18 the Prosecution.
19 JUDGE KWON: This is a pure waste of time. Just put your
20 question, whether he knows the incident or not.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You confirmed that they had held civilians in the city. Are you
23 aware that they were also prepared to shoot at people who were trying to
24 get away without their permission, and they actually did shoot at them?
25 A. I haven't been made aware of this specific incident. I do know
1 that, indeed, government forces had established control positions in
2 Dobrinja. It's a road that is parallel to the runway, and they were
3 checking people going through towards the airport. So no one could
4 really go without being checked.
5 Q. Thank you. This is an incident where a person was wounded. It
6 was an attempt to kill a person at Vrbanja Bridge. Do you know where it
8 A. And unfortunately, he is notorious in my country for reasons that
9 you know very well.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?
11 JUDGE KWON: I don't think I followed your last answer,
12 Mr. Witness. Could you repeat your answer?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, but I can also
14 expand on this.
15 Port Vrbanja was the location where a French position of UNPROFOR
16 was attacked by Serb troops that were wearing UN uniforms, and so this is
17 what happened there.
18 JUDGE KWON: So you heard of the incident?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not of the incident that
20 Mr. Karadzic, the accused, was talking about, but I know the bridge,
21 Vrbanja. I knew where it was, and I also went there eventually. I knew
22 very well where it was in Sarajevo.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, following our principle, we'll not
24 admit this because the witness was not able to confirm anything about
25 this one and knew nothing about the incident, but for the bridge.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was more interested in the
2 phenomenon, as such. I know that he couldn't be aware of each and every
3 incident, but it is up to you, of course.
4 JUDGE KWON: I think I said "knew nothing about the incident, but
5 for the bridge." Let's move on.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Now, did you say that you escorted a high official of your
8 country to a Serb settlement, on which occasion the Muslims shot at you
9 to stop that?
10 JUDGE KWON: Stop there. Shall we go into private session.
11 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
1 Q. May I now remind you that (redacted)
2 (redacted) you stated that you had been
3 aware that the reason for Serb attacks was their wish to prevent the
4 Muslim attack on their supply lines, and you confirmed that today.
5 That's the incident of 21st March.
6 A. Yes, indeed, the incident on the 21st of March was designed in
7 such a way by Serb forces to wage a counter-attack and to retaliate
8 against the attack from the 10th Mountain Brigade, but their response was
9 of a disproportionate nature because part of the shelling targeted the
10 old town, whereas the soldiers of the 10th Mountain Brigade were actually
11 not based in the old town. They were on the front-line, and in
12 parallel -- we've seen it yesterday because figures were showed by the
13 Prosecutor. We saw, as I was saying, that there was a retaliatory fire
14 organised by Serb forces in the proximity of the airport near Butmir by
15 artillery forces.
16 Q. Thank you. Is it the case that the staff and the logistics and
17 the whole base of the 10th Mountain Brigade were in Bistrik, and Bistrik
18 is a part of the old town?
19 A. The General Staff of the 10th Mountain Brigade was opposite -- on
20 the opposite side of the headquarters of the Egyptian Battalion, but it
21 was an area that was rather restricted in surface area and most of the
22 shelling targeted the old town beyond the Miljacka River. So I believe
23 that it was rather surprising to have really pounded the old town while
24 actually trying to target the headquarters of the 10th Mountain Brigade.
25 As for the logistics of the Serb, Bosnian, Muslim brigades, they were of
1 a small nature, because in order to get supply, albeit food or munitions,
2 they didn't really need a logistical depot, and as for fuel, they did not
3 need any, because they were fighting on foot.
17 (redacted) how many troops of the 10th
18 Mountain Brigade were in the area where the shells were falling?
19 A. You mean how many soldiers there were in the old town? As far as
20 I'm concerned, I don't think there were many soldiers. The soldiers were
21 on the front-lines, so above the Jewish cemetery on the road to Pale, and
22 they were not fighting based in the old town. They were fighting in the
23 outskirts of the old city when going towards Pale.
11 I would like to come back on troop deployment, and I mean troops
12 from the Bosnian government. I experienced this part of the war within
13 the city of Sarajevo, so I know full well what was happening there,
14 unlike others. And I know full well that Bosnian troops were deployed on
15 the front-line. They had no barracks, apart from small headquarters.
16 And when soldiers were taken off the front-line, they were going back
17 home. In fact, they were going back home without their weapons, because
18 there was not enough weapons for everyone, and so I have witnessed
19 columns of soldiers that were going to the front-line and they didn't
20 have weapons because they would swap weapons or exchange weapons when
21 they arrived on the front-line. So the fact that some soldiers were
22 based in the city is actually not correct.
23 Q. Did you know that one organic component of the 10th
24 Mountain Brigade was the Anti-Sabotage Detachment, Bascarsija, from
25 Old Town, and they were deployed all over the old town, their logistics
1 were in different locations? Their staff was small, but their staff
2 units were all around in Stari Grad.
3 A. This is information I never received or obtained. But I was
4 going about the whole of the city of Sarajevo, including the old town,
6 (redacted) I'm
7 quite surprised by what you just said.
8 Q. We will present that, but I'm very happy that you know all about
9 Sarajevo, because we were really looking forward to a witness who knows
10 all about what happened in Sarajevo.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Can we now have 1D1872, please. I believe that there is a
2 translation. Yes, there is.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Witness, now we are slowly moving on to the 1st of June and what
5 happened on the 1st of June. This document speaks about what the
6 Sarajevo Romanija Corps did, we see it here, from the 22nd of May
8 Do you recall that at the time, it had been agreed to exclude the
9 use of fire-arms from 12.7-millimetre calibre onwards?
10 A. I see this document for the first time. I have never seen it
11 before, and this doesn't really ring any bell.
12 Q. And do you know that at the time, there was a cease-fire that was
14 A. I do not want to be sarcastic, but there has been a lot of
15 cease-fires and it could be -- it could well be that there was a
16 cease-fire on that day, but I don't recall exactly.
17 Q. And do you know that the Serb side -- well, I think that this is
18 the time when weaponry was being monitored by the UN. Do you remember
19 that it was forbidden to use all artillery pieces from 12.7-millimetre
20 calibre upwards?
21 A. Artillery pieces were placed at that time. I don't recall that.
22 If I remember correctly, it's this time where we talked about the
23 demilitarisation of the Gorazde and Zepa enclaves, but I don't remember
24 that at that time artillery pieces of calibre higher than 12.7 were
25 actually monitored. I think that it post-dates that period, because we
1 do not have the ways and means to monitor those artillery pieces at that
2 time. (redacted)
5 Q. Thank you. Do you doubt the authenticity of this document, this
6 order of General Galic's to involve officers and even the police, if
7 necessary, in order to rule out any possibility of firing at town using
8 12.7-millimetre-calibre weapons and bigger than that? You did see quite
9 a few of Galic's documents, so do you know -- I mean, do you doubt the
10 authenticity of this document? It's the OTP that provided this document
11 to us.
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's not for the witness to speculate
13 or give opinion about something, including the authenticity of a document
14 he knows nothing about.
15 In the meantime, I think deleting the last sentence of the
16 witness's previous answer -- Ms. Edgerton, was that the reason?
17 MS. EDGERTON: Actually, with respect to Your Honours, whether or
18 not the document was provided by the OTP is no indication of the
19 authenticity of the document, itself.
20 JUDGE KWON: I think he understands it by now.
21 Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?
23 JUDGE KWON: No, we'll not admit this, Mr. Karadzic.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we move to private session,
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Just a second, Mr. Witness.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 4246-4247 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Witness, I would like to put a few things to you in relation to
2 which we have authentic documents; namely, that before the 1st of June,
3 there was a cease-fire in force, the Serb side observed it within the
4 scope of its possibilities, and it really went far, and, on the other
5 hand, the Muslim side violated that cease-fire agreement. What do you
6 say to that?
7 A. As I said earlier on, there have been so many cease-fires that I
8 don't really remember them. I know that when there was a cease-fire, it
9 didn't last for very long, and one party or the other would violate them.
10 Q. However, in this case we have documents showing that the
11 Sarajevo Romanija Corps is reporting to the Main Staff about the
12 situation as it was, and they cannot lie in such documents, they have to
13 tell the truth. It never happened that they would lie in their reports.
14 We have this document, if it's still here. I hope that you have it on
15 the ELMO. That you have the translation on the ELMO, that is.
16 You see, paragraph 1, all the things that the enemy was doing;
17 attacking Faletic, Sucura Kuce -- can we have the next page in English,
19 If you can stop at this point, yes.
20 See, the enemy was also firing from Hotonj, and so on and so
21 forth, at Vogosca as well.
22 Can we have the next page, please. Paragraph 2, the next page.
23 See, it says -- well, it says "number 1," but it's actually
24 number 2. It says:
25 "Our units have taken measures to observe the cease-fire."
1 Can we move on to paragraph 6 now, please, the last sentence.
2 Paragraph 6, here it is. Well, it says "number 5" here:
3 [In English] "The problem of food, ammunition ... is really
5 [Interpretation] Now, number 8, the conclusion.
6 Here is the conclusion:
7 "The units of the corps, as a whole, are fully observing the
8 order on the cessation of hostilities, but it is not being observed by
9 the enemy at the entire front, and the most frequent fire is coming from
10 the Muslim part of Sarajevo, Pazarici, Visoko, and from Igman. This is
11 particularly strong when important delegations of VIPs come to Sarajevo.
12 Since they only go to the Muslim side, they get a false picture of who it
13 is that is not observing the signed cease-fire agreements."
14 This is a strictly-confidential document, a military secret. It
15 is not intended for the media. He is reporting to his superior command
16 about the situation in the corps, and so on. Do you believe this, sir?
17 A. There's nothing that shows me that this was something which
18 actually happened. So there might have been provocations on the Bosnian
19 side, yes, certainly, but to determine whether the situation of the Serb
20 forces is as it was described here, I cannot know.
21 Q. Does the following correspond to your own experience; namely,
22 that the Muslim forces would open fire when various delegations were
23 there in order to tarnish the reputation of the Serbs?
24 A. That is possible, yes.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Can this document be admitted?
2 JUDGE KWON: Likewise, Mr. Karadzic, the witness didn't know
3 anything about the content of this document. We'll not admit it.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. At one point, you said that the Serbs have 122- and
6 150-millimetre artillery, but that the Muslim side does not have 122 and
7 over 150; isn't that right?
8 A. Yes. As far as I know, yes, and from the reports we received
9 inside the town. So inside the town, we did not find any such pieces of
11 Q. Is the Muslim side the one that reported to you about this or did
12 it come from an impartial source?
13 A. I remind you of the fact that UNPROFOR was quite numerous in
14 Sarajevo, we had observers, and these were the people who gave
15 information to us on the presence or non-presence of heavy weaponry
16 inside the town.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 1D1943, please, could we have that document now. There's a
19 translation there as well. Actually, I'm not sure that there is a
20 translation. It's possible, though. Yes.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Do you see, Witness, that under number D -- or, rather,
23 subparagraph D, it says:
24 "Howitzer battery, 122-millimetre D-30 with all personnel and
25 materiel disposed in the 2nd Motorised Brigade."
1 Do you know where the 2nd Motorised Brigade was?
2 A. I do not remember that.
3 Q. And do you see here that they do have a 122-millimetre Howitzer?
4 And here, under B, it says that they have 105-millimetre and also a
5 120-millimetre mortar battery. And I believe that you do know, on the
6 whole, who the commander of the corps was and that you're familiar with
7 the signature and everything else; right?
8 A. Yes, I do. But as far as I know, the 1st Corps was not just for
10 Q. Well, the 1st Corps was in Sarajevo, but it had two divisions.
11 Two were around Sarajevo and one was in Sarajevo; is that right?
12 A. When I was in Sarajevo, there were no divisions of the 1st Corps.
13 There were only brigades of the Bosnian Muslim corps.
14 Q. That is correct. However -- that is correct. However, 10 or 12
15 brigades were within the town, itself; right?
16 A. Those are not the figures I tend to remember. For me, there were
17 about eight brigades in town, if I remember correctly, but I might be
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Can this document be admitted, because it shows that they did
21 have 122-millimetre Howitzers.
22 JUDGE KWON: Whether it shows or not, Ms. Edgerton, do you object
23 to this admission of this document?
24 MS. EDGERTON: Well, yes, for the same reasons as the documents
25 previously. The witness has had absolutely nothing to offer on this
1 document and, in fact, specifically denied some of the propositions put
2 to him by Dr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But may I say something before you
4 rule? Can I say something before you make your decision?
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This document denies the witness's
7 denial. The witness may be denying something, but this document shows
8 that the denial is not correct. The witness, their witness, cannot be
9 aware of all of my documents, but can be aware of a particular
10 phenomenon. This document directly contradicts what it was that the
11 witness was claiming.
12 JUDGE KWON: You can tender that document through another witness
13 and challenge the credibility of this witness later on. We'll not admit
15 Due to the meeting I have to attend at 3.30, officially, we
16 should stop at 3.30, although the courtroom would be available.
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE KWON: So we better adjourn now for today.
19 And before we break, I have a question for Mr. Robinson, because
20 I understand that all matters relating to binding orders is under your
21 purview. What I'd like to know is whether you have any position about
22 the Bosnian government correspondence filed on the 18th of June.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
24 We would like to have you invite them to an oral hearing, as you
25 had for the other states, and we believe that there are a number of
1 documents that have to be in their possession that are not being
2 produced, and that the best way to resolve that is to invite them for an
3 oral hearing.
4 JUDGE KWON: So you are minded to file something in writing?
5 MR. ROBINSON: Well, I think we already filed something in
6 writing, a supplemental submission which was suggested in oral hearing.
7 I think we filed that in March sometime.
8 JUDGE KWON: So you have nothing further except for the statement
9 you just made?
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you.
13 JUDGE KWON: And we'll be resuming tomorrow at 2.15.
14 In the meantime, Mr. Witness, if I can advise you not to discuss
15 your evidence with anybody. Of course, you are free to speak to
16 somebody, but you are not supposed to discuss your evidence. I hope you
17 understood that.
18 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.31 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day of June,
22 2010, at 2.15 p.m.