Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4544

 1                           Monday, 5 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Before you begin, Mr. Mandic, I hope you have enjoyed the summer

 8     in the Netherlands over the weekend.

 9             Recalling your statement that you had difficulty when you entered

10     the Netherlands at Schiphol with the [indiscernible] having to wait for

11     you for about an hour, the Chamber asked the Registry to look into the

12     matter, and I believe the VWS, the Victim and Witnesses Section, will

13     explain the situation to you in due course.

14             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           WITNESS:  MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

20        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

21        A.   Good morning, Mr. Tieger.

22        Q.   Mr. Mandic, just before we adjourned on Thursday, you were asked

23     about the report on the activities in the Ministry of Justice and

24     Administration in the period May through October 1992, and you indicated

25     that you had -- you said:

Page 4545

 1             "I cannot give answers in relation to something that happened

 2     before me, that is to say, before the Ministry of Justice was

 3     established."

 4             And you've previously indicated you were appointed on or about

 5     the 12th of May, 1992; correct?

 6        A.   Correct, Mr. Tieger.

 7        Q.   I'd like to look at, actually, when you first became aware that

 8     you would be minister of justice and how quickly you or other

 9     representatives of the Ministry of Justice began to work.  And in that

10     connection, I wanted to turn your attention to page 9366 of your

11     testimony in Krajisnik.

12        A.   Mr. Tieger, I can answer your question straight away.  I was

13     invited to one of the meetings of the Security Council.  It was a

14     co-ordinating body.  I don't know what its function was.  It was the end

15     of April.  I think it was the 24th or the 26th of April.  And during that

16     part of the session when nominations were being made, that is to say,

17     when information was being provided to certain physical persons, I was

18     called in, too, and I was informed that Rajko Nikolic, the first minister

19     of justice of the Republika Srpska, or, rather, the Republic of the Serb

20     people of Bosnia-Herzegovina, who was appointed to the

21     Ministerial Council, had not reported to his job, and then I was informed

22     that I would be minister of justice and that I should prepare everything

23     and take all necessary action in order to prepare for that job or,

24     rather, to take over that ministry; that is to say that on the 24th and

25     26th of April, I was informed about that.

Page 4546

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 2     microphones please be switched off while the witness is speaking.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             MR. TIEGER:

 5        Q.   And during the course of your testimony in the Krajisnik case, at

 6     pages, approximately, 8727 through 8730, you had an opportunity to look

 7     at a May 1st, 1992, letter to the presidents of district assemblies,

 8     which you indicated was your effort to begin the establishment of the

 9     organs of the Ministry of Justice.  Do you recall that, Mr. Mandic?

10        A.   Yes, yes, exactly.

11        Q.   So shortly after you were advised that you were to assume the

12     position of minister of justice, you began undertaking efforts to

13     establish the ministry?

14        A.   As far as that written communication was concerned, 15 days -- it

15     happened 15 days after I was informed that I would be minister of

16     justice.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mandic.  Now, on Friday we had looked at a session

18     of the National Security Council on April 24th, 1992.  We had looked at

19     the establishment of the Exchange Commission on 8 May, 1992, and the

20     document signed by Mr. Markovic on the 14th of May, reflecting the work

21     of the Exchange Commission.

22             I'd like to turn next to a document dated 6 June 1992.  That's

23     65 ter 11024.

24             As the English version of this document is coming up, Mr. Mandic,

25     let me indicate to the Court that this is an order from the

Page 4547

 1     Central Commission of the Serbian Republic of BH for exchange of

 2     prisoners of War, Detainees, and Bodies of the killed that are on the

 3     territory of the opposite side.  And it's signed by the president of the

 4     commission, Rajko Colovic.  Now, Mr. Mandic, first of all, you're

 5     familiar with this document; correct?  You've had an opportunity to see

 6     it before and discuss it before?

 7        A.   I first saw this order when I spoke to you and during the trial

 8     of Mr. Momo Krajisnik.

 9        Q.   Let's look at a few provisions of that order, if we can.  The

10     first part of the order indicates that the employees of the Public

11     Security Services, engaged in safe-guarding facilities where prisoners of

12     war or detainees are located, shall keep evidence; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And if we look down to the third paragraph, there's a reference

15     to the fact that municipal commissions for exchange shall submit lists to

16     regional commissions for exchange, if any, or to the central commission.

17     And that's a reflection of the parametal structure of the Exchange

18     Commission that you explained in the Krajisnik case; is that right?  That

19     is, that there were exchange commissions in municipalities at regional

20     levels and a central commission at the republic level; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, yes, that's correct.  Actually, Mr. Tieger, during the

22     beginning of the war, as far as I know, first it was municipal

23     commissions that were set up, that is to say, for the exchange of

24     prisoners of war and others mentioned in this order.  This was done on

25     the basis of crisis staffs and municipal authorities on the ground.  In

Page 4548

 1     the effort made by the government to centralise this commission and to

 2     establish law and order, a central commission was set up for the exchange

 3     of prisoners of war at the level of the government, and it was the

 4     government that passed a decision to establish this commission.  It

 5     consisted of representatives of individual ministries who were

 6     professionally eligible for that job.

 7        Q.   Mr. Mandic, can I ask you to turn to the second page in B/C/S,

 8     and that would be approximately the third paragraph on your page.  And at

 9     page 3 in English, Your Honours, the fourth paragraph, we find the

10     reference I wanted to draw Mr. Mandic's attention to.  That provides as

11     follows, Mr. Mandic:

12             "All women whose detention or deprivation of liberty is not

13     related to the war or war activities, all the children and minors up to

14     16 years of age, old and helpless persons, shall be released immediately

15     and ensure their return according to their own free will without setting

16     any conditions to them or exchanging them."

17             Now, again, Mr. Mandic, you had an opportunity both to see and

18     provide feedback on that provision in the course of the Krajisnik case,

19     and is it, therefore, correct that the provision providing that women

20     whose deprivation of liberty is not related to the war or war activities

21     does the not apply to men of military age; that is, the release of people

22     whose activities are not related to the war applies only to women,

23     children, minors, old, and helpless persons; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And, indeed, as you indicated to the Court during the course of

Page 4549

 1     the Krajisnik case, the Exchange Commission was involved in the exchange

 2     of civilians?

 3        A.   As far as I know, the commission was involved in the exchange of

 4     persons who had been taken prisoner, not civilians, all persons who were

 5     in specific facilities of the territory of Republika Srpska or the

 6     federation.  So a mutual exchange was carried out on the basis of an

 7     agreement reached between political and state leaderships of the republic

 8     or, rather, the federation.

 9        Q.   Well, at page 8758 of the Krajisnik testimony, Mr. Mandic, you

10     were asked about that issue.  You indicated, at page 8757, as the

11     discussion began with questions from the Court about persons who had been

12     detained, either taken into custody as combatants and so on, whereas the

13     others might be civilians or whatever -- that's at page 8757 through

14     8758.  Then you were asked:

15             "If you say 'civilians,' what civilians do you have in mind?"

16             This is at page 8758:

17             " ... civilians under suspicion of having committed offences or

18     just civilians?"

19             And you said:  "Both."

20             Then you were asked by the Judge:

21             "And they were deprived --"

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please ask the

24     distinguished Mr. Tieger to read the entire paragraph to the witness so

25     that things are not taken into -- out of context yet again and presented

Page 4550

 1     in a piecemeal fashion?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I'm obviously reading extensively.  If

 3     there's any context to be provided beyond that, it can either be provided

 4     by Mr. Mandic or by the accused during his examination.  But I don't

 5     think there's any problem with context in this case, as I'm explaining it

 6     and reading it.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Could you read some other parts?  I haven't -- do we

 8     have that paragraph before us, 8757?  No, not yet.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, I

10     remember very well the conversation I had with His Honour Judge Orie, to

11     whom I tried to explain certain things and I tried to analyse certain

12     things, although I was not familiar with the work of that commission and

13     I did not take part in the work of that commission in any way.

14             This interpretation of what a civilian person is and who a

15     prisoner of war is and who a prisoner is, that is clearly specified in

16     the instructions provided by the minister of defence in June 1992, on the

17     basis of the order issued by the president of the republic,

18     Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

19             Now, this order, this order issued by that commission, why does

20     it in a way confuse laws and regulations in that area?  Because until

21     then there was no written document that provided for the treatment of

22     such persons and how they should be treated; that is to say, the state

23     authorities of Republika Srpska had not believed until then that there

24     would be a war and that persons of non-Serb ethnicity would be taken

25     prisoner.  From this -- from this order, that is, we can see that

Page 4551

 1     Mr. Colovic, who was assistant minister, assistant minister of justice,

 2     so he was assistant minister to Mr. Ranko Nikolic, as far as criminal

 3     sanctions are concerned, he applied the provisions of the Law on Criminal

 4     Procedure of the former SFRY and also the Law on Regular Courts that

 5     prescribed how persons who are detained should be treated.  It's not

 6     prisoners of war, but detainees.  That is where there is this clash

 7     between certain provisions of the two respective laws.  That was

 8     regulated during the month of June by the order mentioned a few moments

 9     ago and also the instructions provided by the minister of defence.

10             JUDGE KWON:  You answered before you heard the question put by

11     Mr. Tieger.  But was that answer satisfactory to you?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I add something,

13     because I'm a Court witness.

14             Mr. Rajko Colovic was never an employee of the Ministry of

15     Justice of Republika Srpska.  By applying the provisions of the Law on

16     Regular Courts that stipulate that the president of a relevant court, or

17     a judge authorised by him, are duty-bound to visit all persons who are

18     detained every 14 days to see how their condition is, how they're being

19     treated, and in certain cases they should inform the Ministry of Justice

20     about that.  Mr. Rajko Colovic took over those previsions from the

21     pre-war laws and he wrote them up in this order.  Obviously, this order

22     is not adequate in relation to these laws or, rather, the Law on Criminal

23     Procedure of the SFRY and the Law on Regular Courts.  For wont of certain

24     provisions, Mr. Colovic wrote up this order.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

Page 4552

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   And just to clarify further, Mr. Mandic, I was referring to your

 3     testimony in the Krajisnik case.  Again, Judge Orie asked:

 4             "If you say 'civilians,' what civilians do you have in mind;

 5     civilians under suspicion of having committed offences or just

 6     civilians?"

 7             And your answer was:

 8             "Both, as long as they weren't involved in any armed conflict, in

 9     armed combat, and so on in the war, that they weren't apprehended with

10     weapons, that they hadn't taken part in armed conflicts, in fighting, or

11     anything like that."

12             And then the Judge asked:

13             "And they were deprived their liberty on the basis of what?"

14             And you answered:

15             "I really can't say, Your Honour, because this was done by the

16     Security Services employees and the army."

17             And the Judge asked:

18             "Yes, but it was part of the exchange, I think.  As far as I

19     understood, representatives of your ministry were involved in the

20     exchange of prisoners, of the exchange of detained persons?"

21             And you answered:

22             "Yes, detained civilians."

23             That's correct, isn't it?  That's what you explained to the Judge

24     at the time he was asking you about the Exchange Commission?

25        A.   Mr. Tieger, I tried, on the basis of my own knowledge, to explain

Page 4553

 1     to His Honour Judge Orie, from my own point of view, what the definition

 2     of a civilian person is, also my knowledge as to how these persons had

 3     reached premises that were envisaged for detention.  Now, whether they

 4     were taken prisoner by the army or some other armed formations, that is

 5     something I did not know, or whether these were persons who were being

 6     taken away from places where there was an armed conflict, as was the case

 7     with Dobrinja.  It's not a question of taking persons prisoner, but

 8     giving them shelter while there is an armed conflict going on, so that

 9     they could be taken back or taken somewhere else later.

10             I tried to explain, on the basis of my own experience, what the

11     definition of a civilian was.  I did not participate in this, and I did

12     not have any knowledge as to how these persons had reached these premises

13     that crisis staffs or other authorities had appointed as detention

14     facilities for these persons.  After all, those who interrogated and

15     detained these persons knew whether they were civilians or participants

16     in armed conflict.  That's the Territorial Defence, the army, and the

17     police.

18        Q.   Mr. Mandic, let's turn next to a session of the government on the

19     9th of June, 1992.  That's 65 ter 00172.  And this reflects a session of

20     the government just a few days after the Colovic order.  And if you'll

21     cast your eye on agenda item number 1(a), it states that the government

22     has supported order of the Central Commission for the exchange of

23     prisoners.  And that would be a reference to the 6 June Colovic order;

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes, Mr. Tieger.

Page 4554

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

 2             And, Your Honour, before I get too far behind, I should note that

 3     I need to tender this document as well as the previous two, which would

 4     include 65 ter 16249, the May through October Ministry of Justice report.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, 65 ter number, is it not 11024 that you

 6     used previously?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, and that's my fault for letting us get

 8     behind.  So the three documents that need to be tendered at this point

 9     are the document currently before us, the 9 June government session --

10             JUDGE KWON:  I noted 16249 was the one which was used in the

11     previous session last week.

12             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct, yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  You haven't tendered that?

14             MR. TIEGER:  I believe that's right.  So it would be that

15     document, then, the 6 June Exchange Commission order we just looked at a

16     moment ago, and now the 9 June government session.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Unless they are objected to, they will be

18     admitted.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No objections.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 16249 will be Exhibit P1089.

21     65 ter 11024 will be Exhibit P1090.  And 65 ter 00172 will be

22     Exhibit P1091.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   Mr. Mandic, if we can next turn to a government session the very

Page 4555

 1     next day, 10 June 1992, and that's 65 ter 00173.

 2             And with the assistance of the Registry, if we could turn to

 3     page 3 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.

 4        A.   Sorry, Mr. Tieger.  This is a different document.  This is

 5     minutes from a different government session, not the one that you had

 6     showed earlier on.  Have we finished dealing with that government session

 7     where the order of the Central Commission was adopted?

 8        Q.   Yes, I've moved on to the session the next day, Mr. Mandic.  It

 9     sounds like you want to make a comment on the 9th June session.

10        A.   You didn't let me allow -- you didn't let me explain.  Yes, yes,

11     yes, I did not attend that government session.  No one from the Ministry

12     of Justice attended that session.  So I became aware of these government

13     decisions during June 1992, a couple of days later.  If you go back to

14     the beginning of this document, you will see that I did not attend this

15     session, and no one else from the Ministry of Justice did, and that is

16     where the nominations took place as far as members of the

17     Central Commission are concerned.  That was the session of the 9th of

18     June.

19        Q.   Well, let's focus our attention, as I suggested, for the moment

20     on the 10th of June session, which I believe is still before you.  And

21     you were in attendance at that session; correct, Mr. Mandic?

22        A.   Yes, Mr. Tieger.

23        Q.   Now, if we look at agenda item 7 under "Current Issues," the

24     following conclusions were made:

25             "That the Ministry of Justice should make a report about

Page 4556

 1     prisoners.  This report should pay special attention on treatment of

 2     civilian population, prisoners of war, accommodation, food, et cetera.

 3     The report would be considered by the government, after which it would be

 4     submitted to the Presidency of the republic."

 5             Now, Mr. Mandic, you were asked about this government session

 6     during the course of your testimony in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case, and

 7     at page 9492 you indicated -- or you testified that this situation, that

 8     is, the conclusion that a report should be made, arose because there had

 9     been complaints about the treatment of the civilian population, in

10     particular:

11             "Q.  We see here that the Ministry of Justice should make a

12     report about prisoners, the report should pay special attention on the

13     treatment of the civilian population, prisoners of war, accommodation,

14     food, et cetera, and the report would be considered by the government,

15     after which it would be submitted to the Presidency.  Now, did that arise

16     because there had been complaints about the treatment of the civilian

17     population in particular?"

18             And your answer:  "Yes, yes."

19        A.   Information reached us from the field about certain instances of

20     the inhuman treatment of detained persons.  Whether they were POWs or

21     civilians, I cannot remember.  In an attempt to establish the rule of

22     law, the government took steps to co-ordinate the work of the commissions

23     and to have some specialists from the Ministry of Justice, from the

24     Ministry of the Police, of the Interior, and from other departments to go

25     out in the field to report to the government about the actual situation

Page 4557

 1     in the field, and the government was to inform all the competent

 2     institutions, the Presidency, the Assembly, and, of course, the

 3     government about that situation so that urgent steps could be taken to

 4     overcome the situation and to prevent any further violations of the 1949

 5     Geneva Conventions.  Everything that is written here was undertaken by

 6     the ministry.  A commission was set up.  It went out in the field, it

 7     surveyed the situation, it wrote up a report, and informed the government

 8     and the competent institutions about the situation as found.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It would have been helpful if we

10     heard the whole paragraph.  I should just like to say that we should read

11     the entire paragraph, because just a part of it was quoted.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the witness remembered the situation

13     clearly, and he had no difficulty at all in answering the question.  Then

14     it is for you to supplement during your cross-examination.  Please

15     refrain from intervening in such a way during the Prosecution's

16     examination.

17             Mr. Tieger.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was asked, in cross-examination,

19     when I quoted something, that I should quote it in full rather than

20     interpret or summarise text, so I'm just following the instructions given

21     me when I was doing the examining.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Well, I agree with that principle, but I didn't see

23     any problem with Mr. Tieger examination.  Let's proceed.

24             MR. TIEGER:  And furthermore, Your Honour, the entirety of this

25     transcript is in evidence.

Page 4558

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I beg your pardon.  We have, as evidence, the

 2     Stanisic transcript?

 3             MR. TIEGER:  This is from the -- oh, I apologise, Your Honour.

 4     You're right.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have nothing against its

 7     admission.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Let's proceed.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   Mr. Mandic, the conclusion that we've just looked at indicates

11     that the report would be considered by the government, after which it

12     would be submitted to the Presidency of the republic.  Do you recall who

13     or which body initiated the inquiry about the issue of the treatment of

14     civilian population, prisoners of war, accommodation, food, et cetera?

15        A.   I cannot remember who it was.  I know that Mr. Djeric informed us

16     about the information that he had received, and the prime minister, of

17     course, and these conclusions were adopted at his initiative, at his

18     proposal.  Who the actual proponent was, I cannot recall.

19     Mr. Branko Djeric would be able to clarify that.

20        Q.   I want to look at another official record of an official body on

21     that same date of 10 June 1992, and that's the minutes of the 5th Session

22     of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, held

23     during an imminent threat of war on 10 June 1992.  And that's 65 ter

24     00115.  And I want to look, in particular, at two portions of those

25     minutes, both at the beginning and the end.

Page 4559

 1             As you'll see, Mr. Mandic, at the beginning of the session, just

 2     below the indication of the persons who were present, the minutes

 3     indicate that at the beginning of the session, the Presidency reviewed

 4     information received during night on the situation at the front and

 5     reports of the international public or foreign press.  Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   And then if we turn to the second page of the English and also

 8     the second page of the B/C/S, in the second-to-last paragraph it

 9     indicates, with respect to Dr. Branko Djeric, that:

10             "The government submit a report on prisoners, with proposed

11     measures."

12        A.   That is exactly consistent with what I just said, that

13     Branko Djeric conveyed this information to us and charged specific

14     persons to go out in the field and to inspect the situation, in the field

15     and in the facilities where non-Serbs were being detained, and to submit

16     a report on that.  So non-Serbs.  As a rule, the members of the

17     government got all their information from Mr. Djeric, who was both a

18     member of the Supreme Command and of the Presidency, and he was one of

19     the best-informed people in 1992 in Republika Srpska.

20             MR. TIEGER:  I tender that document, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Together with the previous document?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the first

23     time in my life that I see this document.  I have not had occasion to see

24     it before.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

Page 4560

 1             I don't think there's any objection to this document.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No objection.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Both documents will be admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 00173 will be Exhibit P1092,

 5     and 65 ter 00115 will be P1093.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             MR. TIEGER:

 8        Q.   Mr. Mandic, as noted a moment ago, at the beginning of the

 9     session, according to the minutes, the Presidency reviewed reports of the

10     international public or foreign press.  Were you aware at that time of

11     allegations from the international community or international media about

12     the detention of non-Serb civilians by Bosnian Serb authorities?

13        A.   All my information derived from the information imparted to us at

14     government sessions by the prime minister, Mr. Djeric.

15        Q.   And in that connection, did Mr. Djeric advise you and the other

16     members of government of allegations by the international community, the

17     international media, or others from -- connected with the international

18     public about the detention of non-Serbs by Bosnian Serb authorities?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.  This is

20     information about the positions of the international community.  It is

21     not stated anywhere that their positions were on prisons, which

22     Mr. Tieger is implying.  We assist everything which was happening in the

23     international community regarding the conference, the end of the war,

24     et cetera.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the question was put to the witness.

Page 4561

 1     If you wish to give testimony, we will welcome you.  The witness will

 2     answer the question as far as he knows and as far as he remembers.  It's

 3     not for you to intervene, Mr. Karadzic.  I find it very unhelpful,

 4     Mr. Karadzic.

 5             Yes.  Have you finished your question?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.  I can recap it, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

 8             MR. TIEGER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I had asked you if you were aware of allegations by

10     the international community whether -- international organisations,

11     international public, international media, concerning the detention of

12     non-Serbs by Bosnian Serb authorities.  I believe you answered that you

13     got your information from Mr. Djeric, so I asked you if Mr. Djeric

14     imparted to you such information; that is --

15        A.   Not about that, no, Mr. Tieger.  I didn't say that he informed us

16     about that.  He informed us about the situation in the field, and the

17     events in the field were reported to us by Mr. Djeric at government

18     sessions.  I had no contact whatsoever, nor any information did I receive

19     from the international public or the media.  All the information from the

20     sessions of the Presidency or any body in the leadership of the

21     Republika Srpska were conveyed to us at government sessions by

22     Mr. Djeric; not only on this issue, but on any problems which cropped up

23     in the course of the creation of the state, i.e., Republika Srpska.

24             As you can see from the minutes here, the government reacted to

25     such information, i.e., to proposals by Mr. Djeric for steps to be taken

Page 4562

 1     in order to establish the rule of law and ensure the safety -- the

 2     security of those people who were of non-Serb ethnicity.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  And we can take a quick look, then, at 65 ter 05991.

 4     Mr. Mandic, I'm going to ask you to look at a letter from Dr. Djeric,

 5     dated, I believe, the 24th of May, 1992, to Mr. James Baker, the US

 6     secretary of state.

 7        Q.   And in it, as we can see at the very beginning of the document,

 8     Mr. Djeric appears to be responding to what he calls the most disturbing

 9     news, suggesting the possible use of force against what he calls the

10     Serbian population in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And then he proceeds, in the

11     course of that letter, to address a number of issues.

12             And if you'll look, please, at the fifth paragraph in English,

13     which is located on the first page of your document as well, Dr. Djeric

14     states:

15             "You can rest assured that Serbian side is holding no hostages,

16     operating no concentration camps, and is not killing unarmed civilians in

17     Bosnia.  The reports alleging such crimes, appearing in the US press and

18     elsewhere, are not based on facts."

19             And then he continues discussing demographics, entitlement to

20     land, the genocide of World War II, and so on.

21             Now, Mr. Mandic, I take it that you'll agree that this is a

22     reflection of the fact that there were allegations or Dr. Djeric's

23     concern about allegations in the international press and by the

24     international community concerning, among other issues, the existence of

25     concentration camps in which non-Serb civilians were detained?

Page 4563

 1        A.   This is the first time, Mr. Tieger, that I see this letter.  I'm

 2     not a court expert.  I cannot comment on Mr. Djeric's letter from the

 3     expert side.  I do not agree with you that Mr. Djeric was concerned about

 4     a possible NATO attack on the Serb people, but I think that he wrote a

 5     letter which fell within his competence, as it were, to the international

 6     mediator, Mr. Baker, to present to him his view of the war in May 1992.

 7     I don't know anything about the content of this letter.  I'm not an

 8     analysis expert, so I cannot comment on the letter, itself.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  Is the 65 ter number

10     correct?

11             JUDGE KWON:  I was told it's 951.  Oh, yes, thank you.  Just 5991

12     instead of 951.

13             MR. TIEGER:  If I misspoke, Your Honour, I apologise, but it

14     seemed to come under the number I indicated previously.  But maybe

15     there's a slip between the reading and the enunciation.  But you're

16     correct about the number, and the correct document is on the screen.

17        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I'm not asking you to analyse the document.  The

18     document speaks for itself.  I'm asking you whether or not you claim you

19     were completely unaware of any concern among the members of the

20     Bosnian Serb leadership about reports or allegations from the

21     international community concerning concentration camps or detention

22     facilities maintained by the Bosnian Serb authorities.

23        A.   No, no, that's not the way it is, Mr. Tieger.  All his concerns

24     that Mr. Djeric presented at the government sessions, and the information

25     which came from the field, was something that the government reacted to

Page 4564

 1     by setting up these commissions which would go out in the field to

 2     inspect the situation and to remedy the situation, to have the existing

 3     camps comply with the International Convention -- with the provisions of

 4     the International Convention on Human Rights.

 5        Q.   We've just looked a moment ago at -- and, sorry, Your Honour.  If

 6     I haven't tendered that letter, I'd like to do so now.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  If we are to follow a principle, the witness

 8     confirmed nothing about the document, so we'll admit it at a later stage

 9     if you use it with the proper witnesses.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I don't -- I'm going to say -- okay,

11     let me reiterate the concern I expressed on Thursday about documents and

12     document admissibility and falling within the guide-lines.

13             I think this document naturally arises from what was raised by

14     the previous documents.  This is not an intent to import an issue into an

15     examination artificially.  It arises naturally.  I don't believe there's

16     any question about the authenticity of this document.  The issue of

17     what --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

19             Do you have any observation, Mr. Karadzic, on this document?

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Frankly, Mr. President, we also think it should be

21     admitted, but we would like to have the same rules applied to many of the

22     documents that we've offered.  Thank you.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

25             It's clearly related to the document we admitted before, and as

Page 4565

 1     such, in particular given the accused's position, we'll admit it.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1094, Your Honours.

 4             MR. TIEGER:

 5        Q.   Mr. Mandic, we looked a moment ago at the government session of

 6     the 10th of June, 1992, at which the conclusion that the Ministry of

 7     Justice should make a report about prisoners was made.

 8             If we could turn next to the government session of the 15th of

 9     June, 1992.  That's 65 ter 00176.  And if we could turn, with the

10     assistance of the Registry, to page 4 of the English and page 4 of the

11     B/C/S.  And it would be item number 10.

12             That indicates as follows:

13             "The government has considered the proposed report.  It has been

14     concluded that the issue of prisoners exchange is extremely important,

15     complex and delicate, and that, if sufficient attention is not paid to

16     it, it can cause a number of negative consequences for the whole

17     republic.

18             "It has been agreed that working group consisting of

19     Professor Branko Djeric, Milan Trbojevic, Dr. Dragan Kalinic,

20     Mico Stanisic, Bogdan Subotic, and Momcilo Mandic should consider all the

21     aspects of the prisoner exchange problem and that they should proposal

22     systematic and other solutions, taking into account our and international

23     regulations.  It is obvious that solving this problem is urgent and that

24     the regulations and concrete measures for solving of this issue should be

25     proposed as soon as possible."

Page 4566

 1             Now, first of all, Mr. Mandic, just to clarify for the benefit of

 2     the Court the persons mentioned in item number 10, we already know who

 3     Mr. Djeric is.  Milan Trbojevic was the vice-president of the government;

 4     is that correct?

 5        A.   Dragan Kalinic was minister of health and social welfare,

 6     Mico Stanisic was the minister of the interior, Bogdan Subotic was the

 7     minister of defence, and I was the minister of justice.

 8             If I can be of assistance, Mr. Tieger?

 9        Q.   Yes, Mr. Mandic.  What?

10        A.   I have given you all the offices held by the members of this

11     commission:  Branko Djeric, the prime minister; Trbojevic, vice premier,

12     in charge of internal policy; Kalinic, minister of health and social

13     welfare; Mico Stanisic, minister of the interior; Bogdan Subotic,

14     minister of defence; and I, minister of justice.

15        Q.   And during the course of your testimony in the Stanisic/Zupljanin

16     case, you were asked about this particular government session and this

17     particular conclusion in the government session.  Do you recall that?

18        A.   If you can help me, Mr. Tieger, to recall.

19        Q.   Well, after -- this is on page 9494, after that agenda item

20     number 10 was read out.  You were asked the following:

21             "I know you weren't there, Mr. Mandic, but I assume Mr. Lale

22     reported to you," Mr. Lale being a representative of the Ministry of

23     Justice.  Is that right?

24        A.   Yes, Mr. Lale was the assistant minister.

25        Q.   So just to continue:

Page 4567

 1             "I know you weren't there, Mr. Mandic, but I assume Mr. Lale

 2     reported to you.  What was it that caused negative consequences?"

 3             And your answer was:

 4             "Since we were receiving bad news about ill-treatment of detained

 5     people in individual municipalities, the government decided to set up a

 6     very strong group consisting of the Prime Minister Djeric,

 7     Milan Trbojevic, Dragan Kalinic, health minister, Mico Stanisic, chief of

 8     police, Bogdan Subotic, defence minister, and myself, as the minister of

 9     justice, in order to consider all these problems and find quick

10     solutions.  That was a major problem for Republika Srpska and also for

11     the people who were held in municipal detention units and prisons.  That

12     had to be given immediate attention and solved, and since this commission

13     was not able to solve this issue, we had to include and involve the

14     highest officials in order to prevent any unlawful arrests and detention

15     of civilians."

16        A.   I did not participate in the work of this commission, but I do

17     know its objective, and it included health issues, defence issues,

18     justice issues in its mandate, its basic task was to establish legal

19     regulations for the work of the Central Commission and for the treatment

20     of detained persons of non-Serb ethnicity.  I explained a while ago that

21     this was not done at government level, which I also confirmed when I

22     testified in the Stanisic case, but I did mention that since the

23     political leadership of Republika Srpska had been informed about it,

24     Mr. Karadzic, the president of Republika Srpska, issued an order and

25     instructed the minister of defence to issue, on his part, instructions on

Page 4568

 1     the treatment of detained persons of non-Serb ethnicity.  In that way,

 2     the status of such persons, of detained persons or of prisoners of

 3     non-Serb ethnicity, was legally regulated and the way they should be

 4     treated.  The regulations spelled out the treatment of such persons in

 5     full compliance with the 1949 Geneva Conventions on Human Rights.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have -- I have a translation

 8     issue.  The witness said "captured persons," persons taken prisoners.  I

 9     don't think that is reflected.  It should be "captured."  It should not

10     be "detained."  That is not a proper translation.  What he meant was

11     "taken prisoner in battle," so can we have that clarified?

12             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think that's purely a matter of

13     interpretation.  "In that way, the status of such a person, of detained

14     persons or prisoners" -- I think that's a subject you can explore further

15     during the course of your cross-examination.

16             Let's proceed, Mr. Tieger.

17             In the meantime, do you confirm that you said so during the

18     course of the Stanisic/Zupljanin trial, Mr. Mandic?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I confirm what is in the

20     transcript, that that is what I said in the Stanisic trial.

21             JUDGE KWON:  In that answer, you said, I quote:

22             "We were receiving bad news about detained people in the

23     municipalities."

24             Could you expand on that a bit further?  What kind of bad news

25     were you hearing, and from whom?

Page 4569

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received all our information

 2     from the prime minister, Mr. Djeric.  Now, whether Mr. Djeric received

 3     information at the Presidency or in some other way, that I don't know.

 4     However, the disturbing news was that local authorities were not treating

 5     captured non-Serbs in the spirit of the Geneva Conventions and that they

 6     were violating human rights.  The central government, that is to say, the

 7     Government of Republika Srpska and the Presidency, through these

 8     regulations and legislation, were trying to centralise matters, that is

 9     to say, to take over, to take over care and authority in the

10     municipalities, in the regions, and in the centre, as it were.  Perhaps I

11     got a bit confused while explaining this, but we were trying to

12     centralise authority, and we wanted these persons who had been taken

13     prisoner to be treated in the spirit of the Geneva Conventions and human

14     rights.  That is why commissions were established.  That is why an order

15     was issued by the president of Republika Srpska.  That is why

16     instructions with the force of law were promulgated in the

17     "Official Gazette," stating exactly how non-Serbs who were taken prisoner

18     should be treated.  That is what I meant, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

20             Mr. Tieger.

21             MR. TIEGER:

22        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I believe you indicated that notwithstanding the

23     emphasis on the importance and urgency of this problem as raised in

24     agenda item number 10, you did not participate in the commission.

25        A.   No, because I was probably busy with other urgent matters,

Page 4570

 1     because we were creating the judiciary.  And this commission -- well, how

 2     the commission carried this through -- or perhaps I was out somewhere in

 3     the field, setting up prosecutors' offices and courts.  Now, whether

 4     somebody was standing in for me or not, I really cannot recall.  It's

 5     been a long time, and I cannot remember that particular detail.

 6        Q.   And just to recap, before moving on to the next document:  So on

 7     June 10th, the government called for a report.  On June 15th, it received

 8     the report.  The report indicated that the problem of prisoners exchange

 9     was extremely important and so on, and a working group was formed, or at

10     least there was an agreement that a working group should consider all the

11     aspects of prisoner exchange; is that right?

12        A.   Exactly, Mr. Tieger.  People worked day in and day out.

13        Q.   Let's jump ahead one month to 65 ter --

14             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P1095.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Let's move forward now to --

18             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

19             MR. TIEGER:  -- 65 ter 01587.

20        Q.   01587, Mr. Mandic, is entitled "Report on some aspects of the

21     work done to date and the tasks ahead," dated 17 July 1992, and coming

22     from the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina Ministry of the Interior.

23     And it is -- the handwritten notation on the top -- on the cover page

24     indicates:  "To president of the Presidency and prime minister."

25             Now, Mr. Mandic, you had a chance to see this document previously

Page 4571

 1     during the course of your testimony during the Krajisnik case?

 2        A.   Probably in one of these courtrooms.

 3        Q.   Well, just to refresh your memory, let's look at a couple of the

 4     excerpts from that document.  And you're more than welcome to take your

 5     time and look at the entirety of the document, if you need to.

 6             First of all, Mr. Mandic, let me direct your attention to the top

 7     of page 3 of the English, and in the B/C/S, page 4, also at the top of

 8     the page.  And the report indicates as follows:

 9             "The army, crisis staffs and war presidencies have requested that

10     the army round up or capture as many Muslim civilians as possible, and

11     they leave such undefined camps to internal affairs organs.  The

12     conditions in some of these camps are poor; there is no food, individuals

13     sometimes do not observe international norms, et cetera."

14             Now, Mr. Mandic, did this document reflect generally the kind of

15     information which was available to the government about what was

16     happening in the field in connection with the detention of non-Serbs?

17        A.   This document is dated the 17th of July, and it was submitted to

18     the prime minister and the president of the Presidency or, rather, to the

19     Presidency.  Now, whether the government discussed this document, that is

20     something I cannot recall.  You probably have the minutes, and we can see

21     whether it was discussed at all.

22        Q.   Well, as I did in the course of the Krajisnik case, I attempted

23     to ask you here not about a report specifically about this document, but

24     about the information contained in the document.  And as I asked in the

25     Krajisnik case at 8944, directing your attention to this specific

Page 4572

 1     document and to this specific paragraph:

 2             "Mr. Mandic, you spoke earlier about irregularities and inhumane

 3     treatment in camp.  Does this document, sent by the Ministry of Interior

 4     to the president of the Presidency and the prime minister on July 17th

 5     reflect generally the kind of information available to the government to

 6     which you were referring earlier?"

 7             And your answer was:  "Yes."

 8             That's correct, isn't it, Mr. Mandic?

 9        A.   I cannot recall what I testified to six years ago.  However, at

10     this moment I cannot remember whether the government discussed this

11     information.  Obviously, concerning all information that reached the

12     government and that the government discussed, the government would take

13     measures in relation to such information and reports of the Ministry of

14     Justice, of the Ministry of Police.  I believe that this report is

15     correct as well and that it reflects the situation on the ground.  So

16     there was concern on the part of the minister of police and the

17     government that human rights were being violated in certain

18     municipalities and in certain places where people acted unlawfully and

19     against the Geneva Conventions and held prisoners.  There is no reason

20     for me to doubt this report of the Ministry of the Police.  After all, it

21     was compiled in order to overcome such situations and in order to

22     establish rule of law, as I often say, and observe human rights, because

23     all the documents until then had not provided for a situation when there

24     would be war and when non-Serbs would be taken prisoner.

25        Q.   If I can direct your attention to a portion of the document

Page 4573

 1     approximately four paragraphs below that one, and that will be at page 4

 2     of the B/C/S again and again on page 3 of the English.  That indicates as

 3     follows:

 4             "It should also be noted that new territories are being liberated

 5     in combat activity and that even some Serbs are committing crimes, mainly

 6     all types of looting, in addition to the crimes previously committed by

 7     the enemy."

 8             And then it goes on to describe:

 9             "Looting, as the most serious crime against property, mostly

10     occurs during mopping-up operations, on which occasions paramilitary

11     formations, military formations and police engage in looting."

12             And you were asked again about this document, and that particular

13     provision was brought to your attention in the Krajisnik case, and you

14     were asked in what manner were the new territories being liberated at the

15     time the document was prepared and disseminated in the middle of July

16     1992.  Do you recall that, Mr. Mandic?

17        A.   No, no, I don't recall such details.  However, you can help me,

18     can't you?

19        Q.   Certainly.  This is at page 8945:

20             "Let me ask you this, then:  What was the -- let me ask you:  In

21     what manners were new territories being liberated, if you know, at the

22     time this document was being prepared in the middle of July 1992?"

23             And you said:

24             "As far as I knew, these were combat operations carried on by the

25     army, police, and these crisis staffs.  I was not very much familiar with

Page 4574

 1     that.  I suppose these were combat operations and ethnic cleansing of the

 2     non-Serb population in some areas."

 3             And that was your testimony about that particular provision in

 4     the document; correct, Mr. Mandic?

 5        A.   Well, Mr. Tieger, you say that I said "I assume."  That means

 6     that I was not familiar with these combat activities.  I could assume

 7     what was going on in the armed conflict; ethnic cleansing, combat.  I was

 8     not a participant.  I was not directly informed about that.  This is

 9     basically an assumption, which is what I said when I testified in the

10     Krajisnik case.

11        Q.   Well, let's turn to another portion of the document that you also

12     commented on, Mr. Mandic, and that can be found at page 6 of the English

13     and page 11 of the B/C/S.

14             This paragraph found -- it's the last full paragraph at page 6 of

15     the English, and I believe it's the last paragraph of the document in

16     B/C/S as well, Mr. Mandic.  And moving down to the last sentence of that

17     paragraph, it states:

18             "Special emphasis should be placed on the issue of relocating

19     certain citizens, villages, et cetera, because this does not fall within

20     the competence of the MUP, although efforts are being made to link it to

21     the MUP."

22             And, again, you were asked about that provision, Mr. Mandic.  I

23     take it it would be of some assistance for me to direct your attention to

24     those portions.

25        A.   Mr. Tieger, you keep putting documents to me about which I

Page 4575

 1     presented my opinion and views in the Krajisnik trial.  I accepted and

 2     confirmed that I still stand by everything I had said.  That is to say, I

 3     confirm all the words I uttered by way of testimony in the Krajisnik

 4     trial.  And now you're confusing me.  You take out a few words or

 5     sentences, out of 12 typewritten pages, and you take them out of context,

 6     and I'm supposed to interpret that; problems between the police and the

 7     military.  And at that time, I was head of the Civilian Sector of the

 8     Ministry of Justice, that is to say, a ministry that has nothing to do

 9     whatsoever with the military or with the police, especially not in

10     relation to war operations.

11             My effort to help the Court or you, Mr. Tieger, bring me in a

12     position of confusion.  You keep showing me these sentences and words

13     that are extracted out of a larger context, and now I'm supposed to

14     interpret them.  I testified in Krajisnik six years ago in 2004, and I

15     accept fully everything that --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, do you see that paragraph before you,

17     starting with:  "With a view to resolving existing problems ..."?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see that, Your Honour.  It's

19     the last one down there in B/C/S.

20             JUDGE KWON:  That concerns the functions of the Justice Ministry,

21     doesn't it?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there was a military

23     judiciary and a civilian judiciary.  These problems fall under the

24     military judiciary.  So there was dual -- a dual judiciary, and I was

25     head of the civilian judiciary.  At that time, there was a military

Page 4576

 1     Ministry of Justice as well, that is to say, military prosecutors offices

 2     and prosecution organs.  Obviously, these are problems between the

 3     military and the police, and there is an overlapping of powers.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think I understand your statement.

 5             So the Ministry of Justice -- "Justice Ministry" in this

 6     paragraph refers to an organ in the army; is that what you're saying?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there was a military

 8     judiciary and a civilian judiciary.  These are two completely separate

 9     judiciaries.  I was head of the civilian judiciary, and I carried out the

10     organisation of the civilian judiciary; courts, misdemeanor courts,

11     prosecution offices, and institutions of correction, and they pertained

12     to civilians only, or civilian institutions, rather.  At the same time,

13     there were military judiciary organs that --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, I understand there should be a military

15     judiciary, but is there a separate ministry for military judiciary?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, within the Ministry of

17     Defence.  It would be that ministry.  They are a separate organ that has

18     no points in common with the civilian judiciary.  They have their own

19     prosecutors, their own misdemeanor judges, and their own judges attached

20     to the Main Staff, and the Main Staff of the army is the superior organ

21     that organised the military judiciary.

22             You will see, Your Honours, that several times I tried to bring

23     that together and to create a single judiciary during the course of 1992.

24     I think it was July and August 1992 when I asked that the Assembly amend

25     the law and that there be a single judiciary.  However, that did not

Page 4577

 1     happen while I was minister.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I believe that again it would

 5     be of assistance if the entire paragraph would be read out and if the

 6     witness would see the entire paragraph in Serbian.  There is just --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  That's what I suggested.

 8             We can continue, Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Mr. Mandic, in response to my questions about the information

11     contained in the document, you, among other things, indicated that your

12     ministry had nothing to do with the military or the police.  It's true,

13     isn't it, that -- however, that you met quite often --

14        A.   Problems between the army and police, problems and

15     misunderstanding, operative ones, between the army and the police.  That

16     is what Mr. Stanisic said here, as far as I understand this document.

17        Q.   Well, I'm less interested --

18        A.   Inter alia, of course.

19        Q.   I'm less interested at the moment in the tensions between the

20     military police than I am in the kinds of issues and crimes that are

21     raised by the document.  So let me ask you:  It's correct, isn't it, that

22     you met quite often with Mr. Stanisic, the minister of the interior, and

23     of course this is a Ministry of Interior document, during which you

24     discussed all these issues, including the criminality -- the crimes that

25     were on the increase in the war-struck areas?  And that can be found, in

Page 4578

 1     fact, at page 8951 of your Krajisnik testimony.

 2        A.   Mr. Tieger, I met Stanisic as often as necessary, and that was

 3     basically at government sessions.  The man was minister of police, and

 4     they were involved in armed operations together with the military, the

 5     army, and I was creating the judiciary.  At my -- at the time of my

 6     appointment, there was no Ministry of Justice.  At that point in time,

 7     Republika Srpska did not have a single judge, a single prosecutor, a

 8     single corrections institution.  There was nothing that a ministry of

 9     justice could have in that respect.

10        Q.   Well, Mr. Mandic, again, I'm not asking you about what you may or

11     may not have been in a position to do about it.  I'm simply referring to

12     your previous testimony that you met with Mr. Stanisic and that was one

13     of the sources from which you were aware of these types of problems.  And

14     that's correct; right?

15        A.   That's not correct.

16        Q.   Is it not correct that you met with Mr. Stanisic or not correct

17     that you spoke about the problems of crimes?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, several times you cut off in the middle

19     of Mr. Tieger's questioning.  Please hear him out and then start

20     answering after you heard his answer [sic], please.

21             Now, can you answer the question, Mr. Mandic?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember what I discussed

23     with Stanisic and whether we dealt with these topics, that is to say,

24     problems on the ground in relations between the army and the police or,

25     rather, the commission of crimes at the front-line.  I'm explaining this

Page 4579

 1     for the purposes of the Court.  All crimes that were committed in combat

 2     operations, in relation to the war, belonged to the military judiciary.

 3     All military conscripts from age 16 to 50 or 60 - I cannot remember the

 4     exact provision of the Law on National Defence - fall under military

 5     courts when there is an imminent threat of war, and that was declared in

 6     mid-April.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, if I move on to the next question, I'm

 8     sure it will intrude into the time beyond which the Court indicated

 9     earlier.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to tender this document?

11             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No problem.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Although the witness is not aware of the

15     content of this document or the existence of it, it was read out during

16     the course of the Krajisnik trial, and so he confirmed the situation in

17     general.  So, as such, it can be admitted as an inseparable and an

18     indispensable part of the associated exhibit.  It will be admitted.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1096, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break, and we'll resume at --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We are counting on reciprocity.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise to Mr. Tieger for

23     having interrupted him.  Please do accept my apology.  I was just making

24     an effort to say what I was thinking, so that my thoughts do not escape,

25     as it were.  So I do apologise, once again.

Page 4580

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume at 11.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 5             MR. TIEGER:

 6        Q.   Mr. Mandic, let's move on to another document shortly after the

 7     date of the document we just looked at, which was 17 July 1992, and this

 8     document is dated 20 July 1992.  It's 65 ter 05531.

 9             Mr. Mandic, as you now see on the screen before you, this a

10     document from the Security Services Centre, Banja Luka, to the Serbian

11     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP, for the minister.  And although you

12     can't see on this page, it's signed by the head of the centre,

13     Stojan Zupljanin.

14             Looking at the first paragraph, it indicates that:

15             "During the months of April, May, June and July of 1992, in the

16     wider area of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, there were armed

17     conflicts between the forces of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina and Muslim-Croat forces.  We informed you about the progress

19     and the results of those conflicts on a regular basis."

20             And then if we can turn to the second paragraph, it refers to the

21     arrest of a great number of citizens of Muslim and Croat nationality who

22     were, depending on the number and the circumstances in the field, sent to

23     various buildings, like schools, centres, factory facilities, open spaces

24     and so on.  The document then goes on to describe categories, and if you

25     look at the bottom of the English on page 3, and I believe that's just at

Page 4581

 1     the top of page 2 of the B/C/S, it indicates that:

 2             "The third category is composed of adult men, about whom the

 3     service does not have any information of security for us so far.

 4     Therefore, they can be treated as hostages."

 5             Now, Mr. Mandic, you had the opportunity to see this document

 6     during the course of your testimony in the Krajisnik case; correct?

 7        A.   I do not recall this document, Mr. Tieger.  I think that I see it

 8     for the first time right now.

 9        Q.   Mr. Mandic, beginning at page 8956 of your testimony, this

10     document was displayed as follows:

11             "Can we turn next to a document dated July 20th, 1992, from the

12     Security Service Centre of Banja Luka and directed to the MUP of Serbian

13     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, for the minister."

14             And your attention was thereafter directed to, initially, the

15     first paragraph, which states:

16             "We have informed you about the progress and the results of those

17     conflicts on a regular basis," and then to the second paragraph,

18     including the reference that I just read to you about the third category:

19             "While the third category is made of adult men, about which the

20     Security Service Centre does not have information of a security interest

21     so that they can be treated as hostages."

22             And, Mr. Mandic, I asked you at that time about a comment you had

23     made earlier in your testimony, which was that -- and now I'm referring

24     to page 8958 of the transcript, that you had said earlier in your

25     Krajisnik testimony that:

Page 4582

 1             "The entire government, led by Mr. Djeric, requested that people

 2     not be detained, that civilians not be detained or deprived of liberty

 3     who had been incorporated into the war?"

 4             And you said:

 5             "Yes, that's correct."

 6             Now, that's with respect to Mr. Djeric's request that civilians

 7     not be detained?

 8        A.   That was the government's position, with Mr. Djeric at the helm,

 9     and I confirm that now.

10        Q.   And then I asked you:

11             "With respect to this document, Mr. Mandic, and was he referring

12     to the civilians who are -- non-Serb civilians who are indicated in

13     Mr. Zupljanin's letter of July 20th and in the previous report we saw

14     from the Ministry of the Interior on the 17th of July?"

15             And you said:

16             "Yes, I think that's the case, yes."

17             That was your testimony in the Krajisnik case, Mr. Mandic;

18     correct?

19        A.   I stand by this.  I confirm all my assertions which I made in

20     testifying in the Krajisnik case.  Is it necessary for me to repeat that?

21             MR. TIEGER:  No.  I just wanted to bring this document to the

22     Court's attention and tender the document, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It was tendered originally as an associated

24     exhibit --

25             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct.

Page 4583

 1             JUDGE KWON:  -- and during the course of the Krajisnik trial it

 2     was read out, and the witness confirmed it at the time.  As such, it

 3     forms an indispensable or inseparable document from the transcript we

 4     admitted, so, as such, we'll admit it.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1097, Your Honours.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, the situation described in both of those

 8     documents refer to a period a month or longer after the formation of the

 9     working group at the government session on the 15th of June.  Do you know

10     what steps, if any, the working group took to resolve the kinds of

11     problems that are described in the two documents we've just looked at;

12     that is, the July 17th, 1992, document and the July 20th, 1992, document?

13        A.   Mr. Tieger, this commission, i.e., working group, was formed on

14     the 15th of July, and the reports are from the 17th and the 20th, so they

15     were made after the setting up of the working group.  I cannot recall

16     whether they took any steps and, if so, what steps were taken, but

17     obviously these reports were received a couple of days after the group

18     had been set up.

19        Q.   Just to clarify, Mr. Mandic, the working group, according to the

20     minutes of the session of the government that we looked at, was set up on

21     the 15th of June, not the 15th of July.  Would you like to check the

22     document again?

23        A.   No -- yes, I believe you.  It is okay.  I do not remember that

24     anything had been undertaken or in what scope.

25        Q.   Mr. Mandic, can we turn next to 65 ter 00184.  That's a session

Page 4584

 1     of the government on the 4th of July, 1992.  And if I can direct your

 2     attention to agenda item number 8, found on page 4 of the English, and I

 3     believe you'll find it at the bottom of page 4 in the B/C/S as well.

 4     That the provides as follows:

 5             "The question has been raised whether there are agreed criteria

 6     regarding the moving out of the Muslims population from the territory of

 7     the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 8             "It has been concluded that the government has not until now had

 9     a point of view on this matter.  The Ministry of the Interior is

10     entrusted with preparing information on this issue that the government

11     would consider and take the appropriate standpoint."

12             Now, first of all, Mr. Mandic, this was one of the reactions by

13     the government to information of the type that was coming in to the

14     government, and as we've seen in the documents we've just looked at; that

15     is, information about the detention of non-Serb civilians and their

16     treatment; is that correct?

17        A.   Mr. Tieger, I, myself, did not attend this government session,

18     and obviously it was held before the 17th and 20th of July reports, so

19     that I'm unable to state an opinion on that issue.

20        Q.   Well, Mr. Mandic, I wasn't suggesting that this was a reaction to

21     those reports, specifically, but to the kind of information that was --

22     that existed and the kind of circumstances that prevailed around that

23     time.  So by the 10th of June, as you've indicated, the government was

24     aware of the problem, and in the middle of June we've seen two reports

25     indicating that the problem persisted.  So I'm asking you now, as I asked

Page 4585

 1     you during the course of the Krajisnik case, whether the conclusion made

 2     by the government on 4 July 1992 was one of the reactions by the

 3     government to information of that type.

 4        A.   I have to repeat that I, myself, was not at that government

 5     session, that I'm unable to say anything on the issue.

 6        Q.   Well, perhaps it's the passage of time, Mr. Mandic.  Let me

 7     direct your attention to page 8959 and 8960 of your Krajisnik testimony.

 8     And on page 8959, you were presented with this document, that is, the

 9     minutes of the session of the government conducted on July 4, 1992, and

10     you were asked about agenda item number 8 as follows:

11             "Can I ask you to turn, Mr. Mandic, to agenda item number 8, that

12     is, the last agenda item of the session, and it states as follows ..."

13             And then the provision that we just looked at was read out.  And

14     then the question continued:

15             "First of all, Mr. Mandic, was this one of the responses by the

16     government or reactions by the government to information of the type

17     we've just been looking at, reflected in the July 20th, 1992, document,

18     or the July 17th, 1992, document?"

19             And your answer was:  "Yes, it was."

20        A.   I cannot say anything now.  Really, I was not at that session.  I

21     cannot adopt any stance.

22        Q.   Mr. Mandic, with respect to the -- with respect to the criteria

23     for Muslims moving out, what discussions took place about what acceptable

24     criteria were for moving out Muslims?

25        A.   I do not know anything about that topic, Mr. Tieger.  In fact, I

Page 4586

 1     do not know that that topic was discussed at all, as such.  What moving

 2     out of Muslims are we talking about?  I'm unfamiliar with the topic, as

 3     such.

 4        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you testified repeatedly during the course of the

 5     Krajisnik case about the detention of non-Serb civilians, their treatment

 6     in various detention facilities, the fact that that arose out of either

 7     collecting people from war zones or ethnic cleansing, and the

 8     government's -- and the government's expressed dissatisfaction with that

 9     situation?

10        A.   Mr. Tieger, in my testimony in the Krajisnik case, I merely talk

11     about the penal/correctional facility in Butmir at Ilidza, where there

12     was a lower court and a senior court on the premises of which I often

13     was, and that is what I talked about and was familiar with.  And I also

14     talk about the positions and the conclusions of the government that I had

15     contributed to.  I believe that I have confirmed this in my past

16     testimony, including that of today.

17             On the other hand, I certainly do not know what happened in the

18     autonomous province of Krajina, nor was I familiar with any element of

19     the detention or, as you put it, moving out of Muslims.  I really do not

20     know anything about that.

21        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you suggested that the Ministry of Justice was not

22     consulted in connection with the criteria for moving out of Muslims.  Can

23     you tell us why the Ministry of the Interior was tasked with

24     responsibility in connection with the creation of appropriate criteria

25     for moving Muslims out?

Page 4587

 1        A.   I cannot give you an answer to that question.  I don't know

 2     anything about it.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Let me turn next, then, to another July -- and I

 4     tender that document, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Again, given his answer in transcript page 8959 in

 6     the Krajisnik trial, I'm of the opinion that it also forms -- it forms an

 7     inseparable and indispensable part of that transcript.  So, as such,

 8     we'll admit it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1098, Your Honours.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me just a moment, Your Honour.

11                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

12             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry.  Mr. President, I think a transcription

13     problem with the numbers, but I think we'd like to turn next to 65 ter

14     40077.

15        Q.   Mr. Mandic, what I'm going to turn your attention to, as soon as

16     it comes up on the screen, is a transcript of a television interview with

17     Mrs. Plavsic in July of 1992.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  Could we see the date

19     of this document?

20             MR. TIEGER:  There's no date on the document, Your Honour.  It

21     was contextually dated in the Krajisnik case, and that's the -- it

22     continues to be the basis for the date of the document, which is why I

23     indicated by month rather than specific date.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:

Page 4588

 1        Q.   Mr. Mandic, as you can see here, and I'll give you an opportunity

 2     to cast an eye on that document, although I believe you had an

 3     opportunity to see that during the course of your Krajisnik testimony as

 4     well, Mrs. Plavsic is directing her attention to allegations about

 5     concentration camps, maintained by Bosnian Serb authorities, holding

 6     non-Serbs.  And in the course of her interview, she's providing

 7     information about facilities that she indicates she was informed exist.

 8     And if you see in the middle of the first page in English, and that's

 9     also approximately the same place you'll find it in the B/C/S version,

10     you'll see that she asked the official organs of the MUP of the Serbian

11     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina to comment on the list that was

12     provided from Muslim authorities via UNPROFOR.

13             And then if I can turn your attention to the bottom of

14     page English -- the page 1 in English and in the middle of the first

15     paragraph on page 2 in B/C/S, Mrs. Plavsic indicates as follows:

16             "Here in Prijedor, there are actually 3.000 prisoners, and the

17     location is Omarska.  And those in detention are people who were

18     sentenced by a judge, in accordance with the law and by regular

19     procedure, to detention for a certain period of time."

20             And then she goes on to talk about how those persons are

21     categorised into -- and divided into three categories.

22             Mr. Mandic, with respect to Mrs. Plavsic's assertion that the

23     prisoners or detainees in the Omarska Camp were persons who were

24     sentenced by a judge, in accordance with the law and by regular

25     procedure, was that possible or impossible at that time?

Page 4589

 1        A.   First of all, I should like to inform you that Biljana Plavsic

 2     was in charge of resolving the problems of detained non-Serbs on behalf

 3     of the Presidency of the Republika Srpska.  One of her basic tasks was

 4     actually in that domain.

 5             Secondly, as far as I know, Omarska was a military prison, to the

 6     best of my knowledge.

 7        Q.   So I'll ask you again.  Mr. Mandic, is it possible or impossible

 8     that the judiciary could have brought that number of people to Omarska

 9     through its procedures?

10        A.   Omarska was a military prison, and if anyone was sent there, they

11     were sent there by the military judiciary.  It seems impossible to me

12     that under the circumstances which obtained, such a large number of

13     people were convicted and sent there.  Actually, I have no comment on

14     this.  That will have to be seen with Mrs. Plavsic.

15             As regards the civilian judiciary, it was in the offing, it was

16     nascent in July.

17        Q.   Well, a couple of things, first of all, Mr. Mandic.  First of

18     all, if you look at the document, Mrs. Plavsic asserts that these were

19     not concentration camps, and again I'm looking at page 1 of the English

20     and, again, page 1 of the B/C/S, approximately the middle of the

21     paragraph:

22             "These were not concentration camps at all, but regular prisons,

23     and it is completely normal that prisons exist in peacetime, but

24     especially in wartime."

25             And then she goes on to provide information that she says she

Page 4590

 1     received from the MUP, not from the military authorities.

 2             So I'm interested, first of all, Mr. Mandic, in how you know that

 3     Omarska was a military prison.  When were you advised of that?

 4        A.   I cannot recall.  Probably after the war or perhaps during these

 5     events.  I cannot remember when I learned.  But I did hear that Omarska

 6     was a military prison.

 7        Q.   So when Mrs. Plavsic refers to it as a regular prison in which

 8     there are judicial procedures, she was wrong; is that correct?

 9        A.   I have nothing to say there.  Of course she wasn't right.  In

10     Omarska, I don't think there's even a municipality.  I don't even know

11     what this place looks like, whether there's a court or prison or

12     whatever.  In the area of Omarska, a correctional facility was never

13     established, even after I was minister.  Obviously, Mrs. Plavsic is not

14     really very well versed in the judiciary.  You know, she got a doctorate

15     in the field of snails.  You know what snails are.  She's a doctor of

16     biology.  She has no idea whatsoever about any of this.

17        Q.   She wasn't speaking as an expert in the field of snails, however,

18     Mr. Mandic, was she?  She was speaking as a member of the Presidency of

19     the Serbian Republic of -- of Republika Srpska?

20        A.   Well, how can she say that in such a short period of time, 8.000

21     persons can be prosecuted, tried, and sentenced?  That is impossible.  No

22     one can say that, regardless of professional background.  Obviously, she

23     was saying it, I don't know, on the basis of propaganda or for the

24     purposes of saying that to the public.  It was the Muslim side that was

25     accusing the Serb side, and then she was sort of wondering what that was

Page 4591

 1     all about and trying to give a professional explanation with regard to

 2     that, and we see how professional she is.  I mean, you are an eminent

 3     lawyer, Mr. Tieger.  You know how many trial chambers, prosecutors,

 4     judges, et cetera, you need in order to try 8.000 persons.  I cannot say

 5     that this is sheer foolishness, but it's something along those lines.  I

 6     really have no comment.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  And, Your Honour, again I tender that document.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think we're going to be

 9     objecting to this one.

10             Under your guide-lines, you've indicated when the parties are

11     confronting a witness with the statement of another witness, then unless

12     the witness adopts the content, it has to be introduced through, as

13     you've termed, Witness A, the person who made the statement.  And we feel

14     this is an instance in which it is not admissible and it should be

15     tendered through Mrs. Plavsic, who's also on the Prosecution's witness

16     list.  Thank you.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, what did he say when asked about this

19     during the course of the Krajisnik trial?

20             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. Mandic indicated that it was impossible that the

21     judiciary could have brought such a large number of people to Omarska

22     through its procedures.

23             If I may also add, this is not a statement in the sense that was

24     raised with respect to the guide-lines.  It's not a statement prepared

25     for the course of this litigation.  It's a contemporaneous statement by a

Page 4592

 1     member of the Presidency of Republika Srpska.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give us the page number in the Krajisnik

 3     trial transcript, Mr. Mandic's answer?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  9129, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  9121?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  9129.  And -- sorry, Your Honour, and it was

 7     admitted as an exhibit during the course of Mr. Mandic's testimony.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I know it is a part of the documents tendered

 9     as associated exhibits in relation to this transcript.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Separate from the issue of how much weight should be

12     given to this document, it forms an inseparable and indispensable part of

13     Mr. Mandic's previous transcript.  It will be admitted.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1099, Your Honours.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, with respect to Omarska, were you aware that the

17     Omarska Camp was the focus of international attention after the

18     international media gained access to the camp on approximately the 5th of

19     August, 1992?  First of all, do you recall the international outcry that

20     resulted from the newspaper accounts and videos that emerged from that

21     visit?

22        A.   I do not remember, Mr. Tieger.

23        Q.   And does that mean that, in addition, at no time do you recall

24     Omarska, in particular, being the focus of either attention by the

25     international community or concern by the Bosnian Serb authorities about

Page 4593

 1     the international awareness of Omarska's existence and conditions?

 2        A.   I do not recall, Mr. Tieger.

 3        Q.   Well, in any event, let me turn your attention, then, next to

 4     65 ter 18413.

 5             Now, this document, 65 ter 18413, is a letter or some similar

 6     document dated 8 August 1992, directed to the Serb Republic of Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina president and to the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

 8     prime minister.  And I'll take you through the document, but I'll

 9     indicate that it's signed by the deputy minister for police affairs and

10     tasks, Tomo Kovac.

11             Now, Mr. Mandic, I've indicated earlier that the Omarska Camp and

12     other facilities were the subject of international attention commencing

13     August 5th.  I understand that you have no recollection of that.  But

14     this document is dated 8 August, and if we look at the first paragraph,

15     Mr. Kovac states in his document to the president and the prime minister

16     as follows:

17             "With the aim to resolve problems arising from the detention of

18     other peoples - nations in certain facilities and collection centres in

19     the zones of war activities, apart from the measures already taken by the

20     government and its authorised ministries, I propose the following: that

21     the status of these people be legally changed in compliance with

22     international conventions on refugees, prisoners of war, et cetera."

23             And continuing on to the second paragraph, Mr. Kovac refers to

24     cases where MUP members accept or, in some cases, even take part in

25     capturing people in the war zones.  And after that, arrange accommodation

Page 4594

 1     and a way of life, and determine the duration of their attention and

 2     their entire destiny.

 3             And, finally, in that first page he refers to a much more

 4     important problem in the field is that people are not properly

 5     categorised in the facilities or collection centres:

 6             "We mean civilians and that category of prisoners of war who have

 7     committed criminal acts."

 8             And it goes on to discuss how those categories are to be treated.

 9             And, finally, I want to turn your attention to a couple of

10     passages on the second page of the English, and that's exactly where

11     you'll find them in the B/C/S as well.  Mr. Kovac wrote to the president,

12     the prime minister:

13             "The civilian population, regardless of whether they belong to an

14     ethnic group, extremist members of which are at war with the Serb

15     Republic of BiH, may only have refugee status under the intensified

16     control of the Serb MUP."

17             And he goes on to discuss what sorts of conditions of life they

18     should be provided, and then in the second-to-last paragraph states:

19             "I am putting forward this problem in this manner because the

20     international institutions will not recognise any other attitude towards

21     members of other ethnic groups, regardless of the current situation our

22     people are in, under the government of Muslim or Croat authorities."

23             Now, Mr. Mandic, your attention was directed to this document

24     during the course of the Krajisnik case; correct?

25        A.   Yes, Mr. Tieger.

Page 4595

 1        Q.   And you did not dispute the circumstances that Mr. Kovac referred

 2     to, but you did dispute the sincerity of his letter in expressing concern

 3     about that; is that also correct?

 4        A.   Mr. Tieger, I did not challenge or dispute or confirm what

 5     Mr. Kovac was saying.  He was in charge of the uniformed police as

 6     assistant minister.  What he wrote here on the 8th of August, as we've

 7     seen so far during my testimony, the government passed such conclusions

 8     several times.  I think that this is an insincere letter written by

 9     Mr. Tomo Kovac.  I cannot understand what it was that he wanted.  I've

10     already said this in the Krajisnik trial.  He could not address the

11     president of Republika Srpska and the prime minister directly.  He had

12     his own minister, his own deputy minister.  He was supposed to resolve

13     these problems within his own ministry.  Now, why he did all this?  This

14     was mere repetition of these problems, and there were positions taken by

15     his minister, too, so I don't know.  I think this is simply insincere

16     behaviour on his part.  At that point in time, I do not know.  I cannot

17     use the term I would like to use, out of respect for the Judges and

18     everyone else present here.

19        Q.   And, Mr. Mandic, in addition to the fact that this was directed

20     to the president and prime minister directly, rather than via his own

21     minister, it's also correct that you challenge the sincerity of this

22     letter because this was the kind of information that the government had

23     for a long time, and Mr. Kovac's belated expressions of concern appeared

24     to you to be hypocritical; is that right?

25        A.   Mr. Tieger, so far we have seen that the government on several

Page 4596

 1     occasions established a commission and expressed its concern over the

 2     information that was relayed by Mr. Djeric at government sessions.

 3     Certain measures were taken and commissions were established.  Now, why

 4     does an assistant minister address the president of the republic and the

 5     prime minister directly in this way in relation to something that is

 6     already well known, in relation to which measures were already taken?

 7     And these local prisons, these illegal local prisons, were already being

 8     closed down.  I think that during July and August, they had already been

 9     shut down on the basis of the order of the president of the republic, so

10     I really cannot comment on this.

11        Q.   Well, Mr. Mandic, Mr. Kovac's letter was written on August 8th,

12     immediately on the heels of the entry of the international media into the

13     Omarska Camp.  It wasn't shut down at that point.  It wasn't shut down in

14     July, was it?

15        A.   Mr. Tieger, I really don't know anything about Omarska.  As far

16     as I know, it was a military prison.  When it was established, when it

17     was closed down, I simply do not know.  I do know, though, that in July

18     and August, the government and the Presidency took a series of measures

19     to shut down similar local prisons and military prisons that were not in

20     the spirit of the Geneva Conventions and respect for human rights.

21             You see, from April/May up until -- when the war broke out, until

22     the 8th of July, it was only three months that had elapsed.  You will see

23     that many things -- many measures were taken by the Presidency, by the

24     government, in order to prevent unlawful behaviour on the part of local

25     staffs, paramilitaries, et cetera, and to regulate that area, in a way,

Page 4597

 1     because it had not been regulated up until the beginning of the war.

 2     Actually, war, itself, had not been envisaged or the detention of

 3     non-Serbs in the territory.

 4        Q.   Well, Mr. Mandic, in your answer you appeared to conflate the

 5     period July and August.  So do I take it, by your earlier answer, that

 6     you are not aware that measures -- that any measures taken after the

 7     beginning of August were taken after an international outcry about the

 8     existence of detention facilities in which non-Serb civilians were held?

 9        A.   I know, Mr. Tieger, that Lord Paddy Ashdown, together with

10     Dr. Karadzic, in the beginning of August visited the Butmir correctional

11     facility in Sarajevo.  I personally attended during that visit.  As for

12     other visits, and the outcry you are referring to, I know nothing about

13     that, or, rather, I know very little.  I was just informed to the extent

14     to which Mr. Djeric spoke of these problems at government sessions.  I

15     believe that other institutions, military or any other, discussed

16     military prisons and places where non-Serbs were kept by the military.

17        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I want to -- we've discussed the Exchange Commission

18     and the process of exchange to some extent.  I'd like to turn now to some

19     contemporary conversations that took place in the summer of 1992 and look

20     at the extent to which they reflect the existence of the exchange

21     process.

22             Could we turn first to 65 ter 30847.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Are you tendering that letter, Mr. --

24             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  On the same basis, i.e., as an associated exhibit,

Page 4598

 1     we'll admit this.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1100, Your Honours.

 3             MR. TIEGER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I don't know if you still have the binder of

 5     intercepts with you, but in this case I'm going to ask you to turn to the

 6     transcript of that particular conversation, because this is an intercept

 7     you've already listened to and authenticated during the course of your

 8     Krajisnik testimony.  It's found at tab 18 of your binder, Mr. Mandic,

 9     and is a conversation between you and Mr. Krajisnik on the 26th of June,

10     1992.  So I'll give you a moment to take a look at that and

11     re-familiarise yourself with it.

12        A.   I remember this text.

13        Q.   And, Mr. Mandic, the first page indicates the commencement of the

14     conversation and some greetings exchanged.  Turning to page 2 of the

15     English, and I believe that's page 3 of the B/C/S, the numbers at the top

16     of the page would be 0322-0983, Mr. Krajisnik asks, the passage that

17     begins:

18             "Yes, that has -- that is.  Has he made it down there or not?

19     It's all over now.  Secondly, have you released the one I've told you

20     about, by any chance?"

21             "A.  Yes, I have."

22             That's your answer.

23             Mr. Krajisnik:  "Yes?

24             You, Mr. Mandic:  "He left for Vrbanja one hour ago."

25             Mr. Krajisnik:  "Thanks God."

Page 4599

 1             You say:  "Karamehmedovic; right?"

 2             Mr. Krajisnik:  "Yes, that's him."

 3             You say:  "Well, he is gone."

 4             And we'll continue in a moment, but that's a reference to a

 5     Muslim who is released?

 6        A.   Mr. Krajisnik asked me to find down there in Sarajevo, either in

 7     Butmir or in Lukavica, in one of the correctional facilities, a friend of

 8     his who was at that moment detained in Serb territory.  In Lukavica, I

 9     found the man.  I asked the military commander to release him, and I saw

10     him off.  Of course, I explained that this was a personal friend of the

11     president of the Assembly.  And I saw the man off to Vrbanja Most, where

12     there was a line between Muslim and Serb-held territories, because I was

13     there very often and I was there in the premises of the District Court in

14     the Serb part of Sarajevo.

15        Q.   And during the course of the Krajisnik case, Mr. Menja [phoen]

16     asked you if Karamehmedovic was somebody who had taken up arms against

17     the Serbs or was suspected of being involved in criminal activity and, in

18     general, why he was detained.  And I believe you indicated you didn't

19     know; you simply did what Mr. Krajisnik asked you.

20        A.   Exactly.  I think that it was from the military authorities, from

21     the commander of the corps down there, that I asked that the man be

22     released.  Now, how come this had happened in the first place, I don't

23     know.

24        Q.   Now, if we continue with this conversation, Mr. Krajisnik then

25     asks you:

Page 4600

 1             "Let me also ask you what about this Savic, Milos, since it's his

 2     brother that is really ..."

 3             And then you say:

 4             "President, I put it on the list, the first next exchange and it

 5     will be finished."

 6             Now, Mr. Savic, this is a Serb who was detained by the Muslim

 7     authorities; is that right?

 8        A.   The president of the Assembly, Mr. Krajisnik, informed me, as far

 9     as I can remember, that the brother of his secretary or the head of his

10     office, Milos Savic, was arrested with his entire family in the Muslim

11     part of Sarajevo, the federal part.  Since I was down there in the

12     District Court that was on the premises of the former correctional

13     facility of Butmir, I insisted that the commission, the people who were

14     working on exchanges, that they put on their list that entire family or

15     another family, because he was very worried about his brother and his

16     sister-in-law and two children, I think.  That's what Mr. Krajisnik

17     insisted upon.  And I asked these people who worked down there -- I think

18     it was some Eles [phoen] on behalf of the military and Vanovac [phoen] on

19     behalf of Ilidza municipality.  I can't remember now, but I know there

20     was this inter-ethnic commission that made up these lists and that

21     exchanges were carried out of persons who had been detained.  I think

22     that this Savic was exchanged for someone else who was held prisoner, and

23     then he came to Serb-held territory.  That was at the time when we were

24     looking for a new president of the Central Commission for the Exchange of

25     Prisoners of War.

Page 4601

 1        Q.   And then, Mr. Mandic, as the conversation continues, there's a

 2     more general discussion about exchange.  So after you say, at the bottom

 3     of page 2 of the English, and then continuing on into page 3 of the

 4     English, and it's page 3 of the B/C/S as well, after you say:

 5             "President, I put it on the list, the first next exchange and it

 6     will be finished."

 7             Mr. Krajisnik says:

 8             "Check it down there.  Do you have anyone there?  Can you contact

 9     someone?"

10             I'll let the siren stop.  This is the --

11             JUDGE KWON:  First Monday.

12             MR. TIEGER:  -- first-Monday-of-the-month siren.

13             I think we can proceed.

14        Q.   And then, Mr. Mandic, you say:

15             "There is this Vukovic, a member of the youth organisation, a

16     Serb who is criticising us because we er ... have 400 prisoners here, you

17     know?"

18             Mr. Krajisnik says:  "Who is criticising?"

19             And you say:  "I've got 400."

20             And Mr. Krajisnik says:  "And who is criticising?"

21             Mr. Mandic:  "This Vukovic, Filip, the member of this youth

22     organisation, Serb.  He says - clean it, but er ... for them they

23     are ..."

24             Mr. Krajisnik:  "Filip Vukovic?"

25             Mr. Mandic:  "Yes."

Page 4602

 1             Mr. Krajisnik:  "Communist?"

 2             Mr. Mandic:  "Yes, yes."

 3             Mr. Krajisnik:  "What does he want?"

 4             Mr. Mandic:  "He is the president of that Exchange Commission."

 5             Mr. Krajisnik:  "Their commission?"

 6             And then you, Mr. Mandic:  "Yes."

 7             And Mr. Krajisnik says:  "And what is it that he wants?"

 8             And you say:

 9             "War prisoners, no, they are ex for them.  They are hardly

10     interested in people, they are interested in ammunition and meat, and now

11     we let those women and children go to Vrbanja, to go to their own people,

12     he says that's ethnic cleansing what we do ..."

13             Mr. Krajisnik:  "He does."

14             Mr. Mandic:  "... here ... when ... I will fucking ..."

15             Mr. Krajisnik:  "And where is he now?"

16             Mr. Mandic:  "Somewhere there, I do not know."

17             Mr. Krajisnik:  "With them, isn't he?"

18             Mr. Mandic:  "Yes:

19             Mr. Krajisnik:  "That means he is theirs?"

20             Mr. Mandic:  "Yes, yes, yes."

21             Mr. Krajisnik:  "God, traitors are all around."

22             And then you continue.  You say: "Yes, yes."

23             Mr. Krajisnik says: "Good, Momo, look, please do call him.  I

24     would like to help Savic, it's his brother in stake ..."

25             And you say: "Fist exchange, I will take care of that."

Page 4603

 1             And, Mr. Mandic, this portion of the conversation is a reflection

 2     of the awareness of Mr. Krajisnik, and yourself, and the Bosnian Serb

 3     leadership generally, of the Exchange Commission and its work; correct?

 4        A.   Mr. Krajisnik did not know anything about the work of the

 5     Exchange Commission.  It is obvious from this conversation that he

 6     doesn't know who Filip Vukovic was and what he did, whether the man

 7     remained in federal Sarajevo or had passed over to the Serbian side.  He

 8     was actually the head of the Commission of the Federation of B and H, of

 9     the Muslim side.  So Momo Krajisnik, the president of the Assembly, was

10     not at all familiar with the work of any of the commissions for the

11     exchange of war prisoners.

12             I was in Sarajevo, and I tried -- I did my best, according to the

13     instructions of the government, to find a new president to appoint as

14     president of the Central Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War

15     because Rajko Colovic has resigned and went to Vlasenica to be the

16     president of either the regular court or to Han Pijesak as a judge of the

17     Military Court there.  I'm not quite sure which.

18        Q.   It wasn't necessary for to you explain to Mr. Krajisnik what the

19     Exchange Commission was, was it?

20        A.   Momo Krajisnik didn't know anything about the work of the

21     commission, to the best of my knowledge and in my opinion.  He did not

22     know at all what the role of this Filip Vukovic was or where this person

23     was, and that person was the president of the Commission for the Exchange

24     of POWs.  It is obvious from this text that he didn't know anything, but

25     I did.  I knew because the government had authorised me to find a future

Page 4604

 1     president of the commission following the resignation of Colovic.  This

 2     was a governmental body.  It answered to the government.  And,

 3     Mr. Tieger, its task was to co-ordinate the work of all the local

 4     commissions, the municipal and the regional ones, and to centralise their

 5     work, their lists, the exchange process, to liaise with UNPROFOR and the

 6     international community, as such, as well as with the federation.  When I

 7     refer to the federation, I mean the Muslim side.  Those days, that is

 8     what I did.  I did my best to finish that specific job, in addition to my

 9     regular duties.

10        Q.   Let's turn next to another conversation about exchange.  This one

11     is 65 ter 30849.

12             JUDGE KWON:  The previous intercept --

13             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour, please.

14             JUDGE KWON:  -- to be admitted.  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1101, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MR. TIEGER:

18        Q.   This is dated July 1, 1992.  It's found behind tab 18 of your

19     binder, Mr. Mandic.  It's a transcript of a --

20        A.   The 18th, I believe.

21        Q.   And this is another conversation which you had an opportunity to

22     hear earlier and authenticate, so I'm showing you the transcript rather

23     than replaying the entirety of the intercept.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, did you find the portion?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, yes.

Page 4605

 1             MR. TIEGER:

 2        Q.   And, Mr. Mandic, if you recall that conversation.  Generally,

 3     I'll direct your attention to particular portion of it, but I don't want

 4     to rush you in looking at the transcript.

 5        A.   Yes, I do recall this conversation, Mr. Tieger.  Please go ahead.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  If we can turn to the second page in English, and I

 7     believe that's the second page in B/C/S as well.

 8             There is an exchange of greetings towards the top of the page.

 9     Mr. Karadzic asks you:  "What's up, Momo?"

10             You say:  "Well, not much.  I've just been to a government

11     session, and I'm here now."

12             And, in fact, Mr. Mandic, you recall that there was a government

13     session on the 1st of July, 1992, that you did attend?

14        A.   I do not remember that.  It was really a long, long time ago.

15        Q.   I think the official minutes of that session will confirm that,

16     but we'll move on.

17             And then you say -- after Mr. Karadzic has asked you what's up,

18     you say:

19             "We're working on an exchange now.  We're evacuating some Serbs

20     from Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija."

21             And Mr. Karadzic says:  "Oh, that's very important."

22             And you say:  "Yes."

23             Mr. Karadzic:  "We'll immediately," and then in slashes

24     "mobilise," un-slash, "those fit for combat and the rest of them ..."

25             And you say:  "Yes, yes, we're evacuating them."

Page 4606

 1             Mr. Karadzic:  "How many will there be?"

 2             Mr. Mandic:  "Well, I don't really know.  We have many on the

 3     list.  There are 300 people from Hadzici, Muslims, who have been kept

 4     here for seven days.  No one's inquired about them, no one seems to care.

 5     I don't know what do."

 6             Mr. Karadzic:  "Why don't ..."

 7             Mr. Mandic:  "No one's interested in them, these Muslims ..."

 8             Mr. Karadzic:  "Yeah."

 9             Mr. Mandic:  "So we'll try to exchange them for these, umm ...

10     people from Hrasnica and ..."

11             And then I'll go on to the remainder in just a moment --

12     remainder of that particular passage in just a moment.

13             So is it correct, Mr. Mandic, that this conversation reflects

14     Mr. Karadzic's awareness of the exchange process and the availability of

15     the exchange process?

16        A.   To the best of my recollection, Mr. Tieger, Mr. Karadzic called

17     me at the time on account of a friend of his, a certain Tomic, to check

18     whether we had managed to return him to Sarajevo.  Namely, sometime

19     before that Mr. Karadzic called me and asked me to find -- whether in the

20     military prison or in the prison which was then administered by the

21     police, to find this person whose name I believe was Tomic.  He was a

22     Croat by ethnicity.  I tried, through the police and through the army, to

23     find the whereabouts of this person, and through these various persons

24     who dealt with POWs I did not manage to find him.  And I was informing

25     Mr. Karadzic of that and [indiscernible] of the problems which had been

Page 4607

 1     relayed to me by members of the Exchange Commission.  I liaised with the

 2     civilian president of the Exchange Commission and the staff in charge of

 3     Ilidza and Mr. Ellis.  They had informed me, inter alia, that somebody

 4     had come from Hadzici or perhaps the army had brought them there, these

 5     people, and these people wanted to go via Vrbanja to federal Sarajevo,

 6     but the Muslim side would not admit them because they had no

 7     accommodation, no food for them, and they didn't want them there.

 8             So that was the problem, the exchange problem that these people

 9     who worked on the exchange process had informed me about, and I was

10     informing in this conversation Dr. Karadzic about it.  I was also

11     informing him about whole families of Serbs detained by the Muslim forces

12     in a school in Hrasnica.  And they proposed to me, if they didn't want to

13     admit these people from Hadzici, to admit them to Sarajevo, that they be

14     exchanged for these Serbs from Hrasnica.  And this is what I was

15     informing Mr. Karadzic about, and I was telling him what I knew

16     specifically about these problems.

17        Q.   And what was it that Tomic had done to find himself in detention

18     and subject to exchange?

19        A.   I really don't know.  I never found this person, I never

20     established contact with him, nor do I have any idea what he might have

21     done.  I looked for him in the military prison and in this other prison,

22     but I was unable to find him.  I never found the man.  To my knowledge,

23     he had been released.  Whether he lived on Dobrinja because of the war

24     operations or what, I really don't know.

25        Q.   Now, carrying on with the conversation, there is a discussion

Page 4608

 1     about Tomic, and you say:

 2             "President, he's definitely not there.  All Croats are gone.

 3     There are no more Croats in Kula."

 4             And then you go on shortly thereafter to say:

 5             "President, all Croats have been exchanged.  Here, let me check

 6     again.  I'll call you back in five minutes."

 7             So at that time, there was an awareness of who was detained by

 8     ethnicity, so that you were in a position to say that all Croats had been

 9     exchanged?

10        A.   No.  I asked the representatives of the police and the army to

11     find whether they had a person by the surname of Tomic.  I didn't know

12     his name.  President Karadzic had told me that this was a Croat and a

13     friend of his.  So I asked these people again, these people who had these

14     exchange lists.  On the list, there was no Tomic, so that means that he

15     just wasn't there.  So I inquired, through the police and the army and

16     members of the Exchange Commission, I inquired about this person, and I

17     never found him.  And I did that because I was assigned this task by the

18     president of the republic; namely, to find this friend of his.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I tender this document.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P1102.

22             MR. TIEGER:

23        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I'd like to take a look at what was happening at the

24     time, as reflected in other contemporaneous conversations.  And perhaps

25     we can take that chronologically, and we'll look at approximately three

Page 4609

 1     conversations.  The first is from the 5th of May, 1992.  That's found at

 2     tab 22 in your binder, and it's 65 ter 30734.

 3             Now, again, Mr. Mandic, this is a conversation you had an

 4     opportunity to hear and authenticate before.  It's relatively long, so I

 5     don't want to play it in its entirety again and then refer you back to

 6     particular passages.  So perhaps you can take a moment to re-familiarise

 7     yourself with it, and I'll direct your attention to particular portions.

 8        A.   I'm familiar with this conversation, Mr. Tieger.  You can ask me

 9     your questions.

10        Q.   Thank you.  So this is a conversation between you and

11     Mr. Branko Kvesic and Mr. Bruno Stojic.  And they were both former

12     members of the joint MUP?

13        A.   That is correct.

14        Q.   The first portion I want to direct your attention to is found on

15     page 4 of the English and the page marked "0109" in B/C/S, which is the

16     fourth page or fifth page, I believe.  I think you'll see the numbers at

17     the top of that page, "0322-0109."  And there it appears that you and

18     Mr. Kvesic are talking about positions in Sarajevo.

19             Mr. Kvesic asks:  "So are right there in Pale, are you?"

20             And you say:  "Well, we are not.  We came down to the city."

21             And Mr. Kvesic says:  "Yes, yes."

22             You say:  "We came down and cleaned Grbavica ..."

23             Kvesic says:  "Is that so?"

24             And you say:  "There, we hold Ilidza, Dobrinja and Nedzarici, all

25     the way to student campus and so on."

Page 4610

 1             And is that -- Mr. Mandic, is that generally a description of at

 2     least some of the positions held by the Bosnian Serbs at the beginning of

 3     May 1992?

 4        A.   As you can see, Mr. Tieger, I told Kvesic and Bruno Stojic -- we

 5     knew that Mr. Munir Alibabic was having this conversation recorded, it

 6     was being intercepted, so we mocked him in a specific Bosnian or, shall I

 7     say, Serbian way.  We were trying to, yeah, joke about the advancing of

 8     the 182nd and the 3rd Armies.  This was more like a jocular conversation

 9     of former associates, some of whom had gone to be with their people, the

10     Croats, and others with their people, the Serbs.  And I did everything on

11     purpose.  I exaggerated everything on purpose.  I was ridiculing

12     Munir Alibabic and his staff, who were listening in on our conversation

13     and making these reports, because a couple of days before that they had

14     aired some of our conversations on television and had spoken in very bad

15     terms about some of my associates.  So I believe that this was a flippant

16     conversation on our part.  It wasn't something reflecting the actual

17     situation in the battle-field or something which was consistent with our

18     actual mood at the time.  This is what it was about.

19        Q.   All right.  I understand, Mr. Mandic, that your -- your assertion

20     that you're attempting to tweak Mr. Alibabic.  So when you refer to

21     holding Ilidza, Dobrinja and Nedzarici, all the way to the student

22     campus, is that generally accurate and is there, therefore, an attempt to

23     rub his nose in that, or is that not accurate?

24        A.   Mr. Tieger, we knew that Mr. Munir Alibabic was having the

25     conversation recorded.  I knew it, and I told Branko so.  At that moment,

Page 4611

 1     we were -- I mean, myself and Munir Alibabic were at opposite sides, on

 2     opposite sides, because all these intercepts that you have are by

 3     Munir Alibabic, who made them a year before the war, and during 1992 he

 4     was actually obsessed with me and recorded all my conversations and then

 5     combined them also.  Why?  Because in 1991, we had had a falling-out, a

 6     conflict, because he, as the chief of the Sarajevo State Security Centre,

 7     had started to record -- intercept everything that was Serbian in the

 8     police, in the political circles, and he would take those intercepts to

 9     the Party of Democratic Action, the president of which he was, who was

10     president.  He had locked up in the 1980s -- sorry, in the 1980s, and

11     also convicted to eight years of prison.  Now what he was doing, he was

12     seeking to ingratiate himself, to curry favour with those very same

13     persons and that very same person.

14             You know, Mr. Tieger, how well he co-operated with you.  He

15     brought you just the recordings of one side, not of the other side, and

16     he didn't bring you the recordings of the other side's conversations

17     because he spoke in very foul language about me, my family, et cetera.

18             At the end, at the proposal of your former boss, Mr. Tieger,

19     Madam Carla Del Ponte, Munir Alibabic was prohibited to work in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina in the police, in police organs, until the end of his

21     life.  That kind of a person -- that kind of a man, who was my personal

22     enemy or opponent or rival, a person who built his career on this kind of

23     exercise, was the person I was up against, and in this way I was trying,

24     actually, to mock his behaviour and to rub his nose in it, to tweak him,

25     as you say.

Page 4612

 1        Q.   Well, let's look at some of the subjects that you chose to use to

 2     rub his nose in it.

 3             If we could turn to page 5 of the English, and that would be

 4     page 0110, at least as marked at the top of the page, in B/C/S.  And

 5     there, Mr. Kvesic asks:

 6             "Yeah, what else is going on?"

 7             And you say:

 8             "Well, we're holding Turks under siege.  We'll starve them a bit,

 9     you know."

10             Kvesic:  "Are you?"

11             And then you say:

12             "And then we'll give them everything from the Eternal Flame to

13     Vratnik, everything up there."

14             And then both you and Mr. Kvesic laugh.

15             Mr. Mandic, the reference to holding the Turks under siege and

16     starving them a bit is a reference to the encirclement of Sarajevo by the

17     Bosnian Serb military authorities; correct?

18        A.   No.  At the moment, I wasn't referring to that.  I was not aware

19     of that.  I explained a bit ago I was trying to actually mock this person

20     who was recording us and then would rush that recording to

21     Mr. Izetbegovic.

22        Q.   So maybe I didn't understand you perfectly, Mr. Mandic.  Does

23     that -- you said you weren't aware of that.  Does that mean that you just

24     made up the concept of holding Turks under siege out of old cloth and had

25     no previous awareness of it?

Page 4613

 1        A.   No, no, no.  I was aware, I had an idea, but the Muslim public

 2     insisted on it, on the encirclement of Sarajevo, on everything else, and

 3     they insisted that the Serbs had fled to the woods up there; that these

 4     were forest people, wood people, as they called them.  So we chose

 5     another way to mock them.  We said that they were the army of the

 6     federation that had reached the Eternal Flame, the Eternal Flame being

 7     the center of Sarajevo.

 8             You are too serious a man, Mr. Tieger, to understand the kind of

 9     haggling in the Sarajevo manner which is peculiar to just that city and

10     to those people there, irrespective of their ethnicity, whether Serbs,

11     Croats, or Muslims.

12             Prior to the war, there was a show -- there was a programme,

13     The Theatre of the No-Smoking Group, which divided Sarajevo.  In the

14     morning, they would smuggle goods; in the evening, they would fight.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, we'll be continuing with this, but I

16     know we're already slightly past the time and I don't want to impose on

17     the Court.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

19             We'll have a break for an hour, resuming at 1.30.

20                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Mr. Mandic, before we adjourned, we were looking at some of the

25     passages from the 5 May 1992 conversation with you and Mr. Kvesic and

Page 4614

 1     Mr. Stojic.  I just want to turn your attention to two or three more of

 2     those portions.

 3             If I could ask you to turn to page 7 of the English and to the

 4     page that is marked "0322-0112" in the B/C/S.  And those portions are

 5     also depicted on screen at the moment.

 6             At this point, Mr. Stojic comes into the conversation, and the

 7     conversation begins:

 8             "Where have you been, my Serb brother?"

 9             You say:

10             "Where have you been, my free Croat brother?"

11             There's laughter.

12             Then Mr. Stojic says:

13             "What is this that you are doing, you mother-fucker?"

14             And you say:

15             "We want to build a new and nice Sarajevo."

16             And Mr. Stojic says:  "New and nice Sarajevo?"

17             And you say:

18             "Yes.  We don't like this old synagogues and mosques.  We have to

19     change architecture and everything."

20             Now, Mr. Mandic, I know you've explained that, in part, you were

21     attempting to tweak or rub Mr. Alibabic's nose in this, but this

22     reference to changing the architecture and building a new and nice

23     Sarajevo is a way to tweak him by referring to the shelling of Sarajevo;

24     correct?

25        A.   No.  That was the 5th of May.  That was a conflict between the

Page 4615

 1     Serb and Muslim police at Vrace.  There was no shelling of Sarajevo then.

 2        Q.   And what was the reference to changing the architecture of

 3     synagogues and mosques about, then?

 4        A.   I think that there's only one synagogue in Sarajevo.  It was a

 5     joke, Mr. Tieger.  I don't know if you can appreciate that, as a serious

 6     lawyer, that kind of joking in the Sarajevo milieu, that is.  On the 5th

 7     of May, there was no bombardment of Sarajevo.  There was only a clash

 8     between the Serb special police and the reserve police force at Vrace.

 9        Q.   Was the bombardment anticipated at that time?

10        A.   I cannot answer that question of yours.  These are assumptions.

11     I'm a witness here.  I'm not an expert.  Robert Dolip [phoen], in his

12     findings in the Galic case, stated that on the 6th of April, the attack

13     started -- or, rather, the shelling of Sarajevo started when the

14     Police Academy was attacked.  That is, the old nucleus of Sarajevo.  Of

15     course, that's not correct, because then, on the 6th of April, it was the

16     Serb police that was at Vrace, and it wasn't on the 5th.  If you

17     remember, after the clash at Vrace at the School of the Interior -- the

18     Ministry of the Interior, it was the Serb police that stayed there and

19     there was no shelling.

20        Q.   You referred earlier to mocking the Muslims about reaching the

21     Eternal Flame, the Eternal Flame being the center of Sarajevo, I believe

22     you said.  And I want to turn next --

23        A.   That's right, Mr. Tieger.

24        Q.   So I want to turn next to a couple of references to that.  First,

25     on page 8 of the English, and in B/C/S, Mr. Mandic, that would be at the

Page 4616

 1     page marked "0322-0113."

 2             First, in that passage, this is a continuation of you and

 3     Mr. Stojic, and together the two of you, toward the top of the page in

 4     English, are laughing about Muslims having pushed you Serbs all the way

 5     to Skenderija.  And then this passage:

 6             Stojic asks:  "Listen, is there any way to resolve this

 7     peacefully?"

 8             And you say:  "What?"

 9             And Stojic says:  "Well, this in Sarajevo."

10             And then you say:

11             "Only when they give up everything from Skenderija and around

12     there, then we will accept, and leave for them everything from the

13     Eternal Flame all the way up."

14             And Stojic says:

15             "But they are left with nothing then."

16             And you say:

17             "Fuck them.  They didn't want to do it nicely through

18     negotiations.  Well, now they'll get nothing."

19             So is it correct, Mr. Mandic, that the earlier reference to the

20     Eternal Flame, that is, leaving the Muslims to the Muslim Army at the

21     Eternal Flame, the joke there is they are being pushed into a very small

22     part of Sarajevo?  In other words, is the tweaking that you're doing at

23     this point, that the Muslims are doing badly, you're saying that the

24     Bosnian Serbs will only accept leaving them everything from the Eternal

25     Flame, and Stojic and you make clear that leaves the Muslims with very

Page 4617

 1     little?

 2        A.   I'm a bit confused, once again, by your going back to this

 3     conversation.  Mr. Tieger, I had explained in detail what kind of

 4     conversations I had with the Croats.  Of course, we have to establish

 5     together that the Croats were also a warring party, and mainly against

 6     the Serbs.  Bearing in mind that our conversation was being intercepted

 7     by Munir Alibabic in Sarajevo at the PTT, these were jokes.  This was not

 8     serious.  This was bragging so that the Muslims, Alibabic, would hear

 9     this; that Mujahedin units had reached Pale, Romanija, that

10     Radovan Karadzic had fled to Switzerland, I can't remember which city

11     there, with loads of valuables and so on.  So if you take that out of

12     context, it doesn't work, whereas the Eternal Flame is in Tito Street, as

13     it was called at the time, in the center of Sarajevo.

14        Q.   All right.  Last reference in this conversation, Mr. Mandic, this

15     time to a portion of the conversation where Mr. Stanisic picks up the

16     line and is speaking to Mr. Kvesic.  And that's found at page 23 of the

17     English, and in B/C/S at the page marked "0322-0129."  And the reference

18     I'm drawing your attention to, at the top of the page in English on 23,

19     is Mr. Stanisic speaking, saying:

20             "We are trying to drive them out without losses, but it seems

21     that they don't want to go away."

22             And Kvesic says:

23             "Where?  Where the hell do you want to drive them to?  Up to

24     Bascarsija, down to Pale?  Where?  They have no place to go."

25             And then Mr. Stanisic laughs.

Page 4618

 1             Sorry, Mr. Mandic, I see you're still looking for it.  If you

 2     look at the top of the page, you'll see that the ERN numbers that are

 3     marked, the first four numbers are usually 0322, and then the particular

 4     page is 0129.  In any event, it's on the screen.

 5             Mr. Mandic, is that another joke based on the fact that the

 6     Muslims are being driven into smaller parts of Sarajevo?

 7        A.   Mr. Tieger, according to Munir Alibabic, this conversation took

 8     place on the 5th of May.  I don't know what Mico Stanisic knew about

 9     driving the Muslims into smaller parts of Sarajevo or not, or perhaps it

10     was based on the same knowledge that I had spoken of a moment ago.

11        Q.   All right.  I started with a conversation in early May.  Let me

12     turn you a couple of months ahead to the beginning of July, and

13     specifically July 10th.  That's -- and, Your Honour, I would tender the

14     previous document, 30734.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1103, Your Honour.

17             MR. TIEGER:

18        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you're going to find this next document in tab 24 of

19     your binder, and that's, again, a conversation of the 10th of July, 1992

20     with Mr. Mandic, Mr. Rezo, and then Mr. Mandic and Mr. Kvesic.

21             JUDGE KWON:  The 65 ter number, Mr. Tieger?

22             MR. TIEGER:  32672, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Again, Mr. Mandic, looking at this, this is a conversation you

24     had a chance to hear in its entirety and then authenticate in the

25     Krajisnik case.  Looking at it again today, do you recall it?  And,

Page 4619

 1     again, it's relatively long, so if you need a moment or two to look at

 2     it, please let me know.

 3        A.   Just go ahead and put your question to me, Mr. Tieger.

 4        Q.   Mr. Mandic, let me ask you to turn to what is contained in page 7

 5     of the English, and in the B/C/S that's found at the page marked

 6     "0328-2472."  And here, on July 10th, you say to Mr. Kvesic, who asks:

 7             "Tell me when this is going to finish, to hell with it."

 8             You say:

 9             "I don't know.  Believe me, I don't know.  It probably depends on

10     those three men.  Actually, it depends on your boss and mine.  I think

11     that they could exert a lot of influence in order to get this finished as

12     soon as possible."

13             Kvesic says:  "Yes."

14             You say:

15             "There is no sense to wage a war now, you know."

16             Kvesic says:  "No fucking way."

17             You say:

18             "Counties and national communities have already taken everything

19     that was supposed to be taken.  I don't know.  Sarajevo is disputable,

20     the area down there in Herzegovina and up there along the Sava River.

21     There is nothing left."

22             Mr. Mandic, is that portion of the conversation a reflection of

23     the fact that by July, much of the area or territory sought by the

24     Bosnian Serbs that was considered supposed to have been taken had already

25     been taken?

Page 4620

 1        A.   I think the answer is yes.

 2        Q.   And if I could turn your attention, in that connection, to 65 ter

 3     00028.  That's a session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, the 17th session,

 4     held on July 24th through 26th, 1992, which I believe you attended,

 5     Mr. Mandic.  And I would direct your attention to the English at page 18,

 6     and in B/C/S it's page 16.

 7             If we go one more page forward, please, in English.  Thank you.

 8             This is Dr. Karadzic speaking, and he says on that date:

 9             "Militarily, we are in an excellent position.  Our foreign

10     political position is terrible.  Our domestic political situation is very

11     good, being that our people are fully in favour of fighting, that is,

12     peace, because we don't have any more reason to fight.  We have liberated

13     almost everything that is ours.  In final talks, we could even return

14     some territories, villages that do not belong to us."

15             And, Mr. Mandic, was that the position that you were reflecting

16     when you were speaking with Mr. Kvesic in July, that -- or was it

17     consistent with the position that you took, that everything that had been

18     taken -- that was supposed to be taken had been taken, for the most part?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Mr. Mandic, if I could ask you to turn next to what appears on

21     page 8 of the English, and the page marked "0328-2472" of the B/C/S.

22             In the middle of the page in English, Kvesic is talking about

23     some of the alternatives and organisation according to counties, and you

24     stop him and say:

25             "Wait a minute.  But they are a minority now, man."

Page 4621

 1             He says:  "What?"

 2             You say:

 3             "They are a minor now, fuck."

 4             And he says:

 5             "There's no way to build a military --"

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Are we following the -- you're

 7     referring to page 8 of that intercept?

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Correct, Your Honour.  I'm sorry, my apologies to

 9     the Registrar.  I did not assist the Registrar in moving back and forth.

10             So with that understood, can we move back, please, to 32672 and

11     to page 8 of the English, and page 0328-2472 of the B/C/S.

12        Q.   Mr. Mandic, it is, again, the July 10th conversation at tab 24 of

13     your binder, and --

14        A.   Number?

15        Q.   The page number would be -- if you look up at the top, you should

16     see it at 0328-2472.  I believe it's the fifth page in sequence.  And it

17     is shown on screen.

18             And, again, I was directing your attention to the portion where

19     you say:

20             "Wait a minute.  But they are a minority now, man."

21             Kvesic says:  "What?"

22             You say:

23             "They are a minority now, fuck."

24             Kvesic says:

25             "There is no way to build a unitary country, either Serbian or

Page 4622

 1     Croatian, any more."

 2             And you say:

 3             "They are the smallest nation in number now."

 4             Mr. Mandic, we looked at a similar sentiment expressed by

 5     Mr. Kupresanin earlier in your examination.  Is that a reflection of the

 6     awareness that -- of the demographic change that has occurred -- and I

 7     see you nodding -- the demographic change that has occurred and the

 8     reduction of the Muslim population in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 9        A.   No, Mr. Tieger.  In Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the territories

10     that were held by the Bosnian Serbs.  Obviously, at that point in time,

11     the Bosnian Serbs held the larger part of Bosnia-Herzegovina under their

12     control.  That's what Mr. Karadzic said to the Assembly as well.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me just a moment.  I'm just fixing the

14     technical capacity here.

15        Q.   And, Mr. Mandic, if I could next direct your attention to page 11

16     of the English, and that would be at page 0328-2474 in the B/C/S.  And

17     I'm looking at the bottom of the page in English, and I think you'll find

18     that in approximately the middle of the page in B/C/S.

19             So Kvesic begins:

20             "There are some of our men in Manjaca, man."

21             And you say:  "In Krajina, right?"

22             And he says:  "Yes."

23             And you say:  "We can do it."

24             He says:  "What can you do about it?"

25             You say:  "A lot."

Page 4623

 1             Kvesic says:

 2             "Listen, fuck, let's find out.  Listen, it is because of

 3     relations in general."

 4             You say:  "Naturally, man."

 5             Kvesic says:  "There is ..."

 6             And then you say:

 7             "All right, I'll tell it to my main boss."

 8             And Kvesic says:  "Check it, please."

 9             You say:  "Where are they placed?"

10             Kvesic says:  "You know where I am?"

11             You say:

12             "I know it, but where are they placed over there?"

13             He says:

14             "They are placed somewhere in Manjaca."

15             And you say:

16             "Over there in the military camp in Manjaca?"

17             And that's a reference to the Manjaca camp in the Krajina;

18     correct?

19        A.   Mr. Tieger, first of all I'm asking whether this Manjaca is in

20     Krajina, and then Kvesic confirms that for me, because I didn't know

21     where this Manjaca was at all.  Just read what I said in the Stanisic

22     case.  Try to remember what I said there.  You take it out of context,

23     and then it gets a completely different meaning.

24             Branko Kvesic asked me about this Medjarevic [phoen], who was

25     from the same area that he was from, and he claimed that he was in

Page 4624

 1     Manjaca as well.  And I asked him, Is that in Krajina?  I mean, I'm

 2     asking whether Manjaca is in Krajina.  And he says to me, Yes.  And then

 3     I tell him that through my main boss, I would see what could be done for

 4     that Croat.  I did not know at all where Manjaca was.

 5        Q.   Well, Mr. Mandic, I did read your Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony.

 6     I think that position was challenged there as well.  It's correct, and I

 7     don't want to quibble about this point unnecessarily, but Kvesic simply

 8     says, They're in Manjaca, and you say, In Krajina; right?  So you're the

 9     one who raised the fact that it's in Krajina.

10        A.   Yes, I'm asking.  You can see the question mark.  I'm asking, Is

11     it in Krajina, is it in Krajina at all?  And I fully stand by my

12     statement in the Stanisic case in this regard.

13        Q.   All right.  Mr. Mandic, in the interests of time, I want to move

14     on to a somewhat different topic, and that is the issue of

15     paramilitaries, if I may.  And I think you discussed that to some extent

16     also in your Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony.

17             So let me first direct your attention to a quote from the

18     22nd Assembly -- Bosnian Serb Assembly held toward the end of November

19     1992.  That's 65 ter 00035.

20             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, we'll admit that intercept, 32673,

21     as Exhibit --

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE KWON:  32672 will be admitted as Exhibit P1104.  And for

24     the record, 65 ter number 28 has been already admitted as Defence

25     Exhibit 92.

Page 4625

 1             MR. TIEGER:

 2        Q.   Now, let me just ask you a couple questions about the

 3     22nd Assembly session, Mr. Mandic.

 4             That was the session at which there was considerable discussion

 5     involving Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Djeric, yourself, Mr. Stanisic, about the --

 6     about a number of issues related to the government, including who you and

 7     Mr. Stanisic reported to, the extent to which there was conflict between

 8     you and Mr. Stanisic, on the one hand, and Mr. Djeric, on the other, and

 9     other issues; correct?  And it's the session at which that current

10     government of Mr. Djeric's fell?  Is that all right?

11        A.   I remember that session, Mr. Tieger.  Please go ahead with your

12     questions.

13        Q.   Now, during the course of your Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony, when

14     you were asked about the relationship between Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Djeric

15     at page 9724, you pointed to what you refer to as a clash between them on

16     the issue of paramilitary formations.  Do you recall that, generally?

17     I'll direct your attention to the specific portion in a moment.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you said that Mr. Djeric followed Mrs. Plavsic and that she

20     said at the Assembly -- or she explained at that particular Assembly

21     session how she invited Arkan, and his Tigers, and the White Eagles, and

22     what you referred to as other animals and beasts, into Republika Srpska?

23     That's at 9724 through 9725.

24        A.   That is correct.  Ms. Biljana Plavsic was an advocate of having

25     all paramilitary units from territories where Serbs lived outside Bosnia

Page 4626

 1     and Herzegovina coming to the assistance of their brethren in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina in the religious war being waged there.

 3     Mico Stanisic, the chief of the police and the legalist, was against it,

 4     and I supported him, and Mr. Djeric supported Biljana Plavsic.

 5             At that session, she said, I have people called

 6     Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, his Tigers, the White Eagles, the Ducks, the

 7     Crows, et cetera, the Magpies, to come and fight on the Serbian side, and

 8     our minister of the police is arresting those people, which he did with

 9     the Yellow Wasps, and he's preventing our brethren coming to our

10     assistance.  That was the culmination of the clash between

11     Biljana Plavsic and Mico Stanisic; i.e., Djeric and Biljana on the one

12     hand and me and Mico Stanisic, on the other hand, because these para

13     groups, in the territory where control was held by the Serbs, when they

14     had nothing to loot anymore from the non-Serbs, they would then proceed

15     to loot the Serbs, the property of the Serbs.  That is what the minister

16     of the interior tried to put an end to.  He informed this government

17     session about this, Mr. Djeric at government sessions, and he asked for

18     Ms. Plavsic not to conduct such a policy.  But professors being

19     professors, they took it personally, and the conflict, in terms of how

20     the state should be led, was transferred to the personal plane, to a

21     personal conflict.  So they looked for a reason to remove

22     Ministers Mandic and Stanisic because their course was on a collision

23     course with their own.

24             The political party in power then respected the stance of

25     Biljana Plavsic rather than -- after she had said at that government

Page 4627

 1     session -- at that Assembly session that she had invited explicitly

 2     paramilitary units to come to Bosnia and commit crimes, in my opinion,

 3     she should have been relieved from her office, and in that case and had

 4     that been done, there would be far fewer representatives of the former

 5     authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina sitting right here.  That was the

 6     mistake.  In my view, those who abided by the law, who created the law,

 7     who were legalists, should have been respected rather than those who

 8     pleaded the Serbian case, saying that out of 12 million Serbs, 6 million

 9     should perish in order for the other 6 million to live in liberty.

10             So Mrs. Plavsic was not a nationalist.  She was an evil person

11     who said these things out of her own personal motives.  She portrayed

12     herself as the Serbian mother, but I, myself, and some other people know

13     that she was actually a jilted woman.  She had been jilted by her

14     lover of Muslim nationality, and this was the way she was exacting

15     revenge on everybody else, by the stances which she adopted in these

16     assemblies.

17        Q.   And did you also explain in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case,

18     Mr. Mandic, that at that particular session Djeric singled you and

19     Stanisic out, claiming that you had, and you in particular, had ties with

20     Karadzic, and you pointed out how unfair that was, in your view, because:

21             "I wouldn't exchange a word with Karadzic for half a year because

22     he allowed Plavsic and others to do this."

23             That is, to call in the paramilitaries?

24        A.   I was not at all close to Mr. Karadzic.  Ours were only official

25     contacts, and ours were only official conversations.  From that time in

Page 4628

 1     early 1992, when some of the Serbian sycophants went and told to the

 2     president of the republic that it had been my idea and Alija Mustafic's

 3     idea that we should see to it that Radovan and Alija should cool down a

 4     bit and for tensions to ease some, that was an expression of mistrust in

 5     me, as a person, as a man who was prepared to do many things that others

 6     were not prepared to do.  I had no privileges whatsoever in respect of

 7     the treatment accorded me by the president of the Republika Srpska.  In

 8     fact, on several occasions, Biljana Plavsic and Professor Koljevic

 9     showered lies on Mr. Karadzic regarding my activities and actions and

10     those of Mico Stanisic, and actually the late Dr. Koljevic admitted to

11     that in the Villa Bosanka at a certain point in the past, and that was

12     for the first time in my life that I heard Dr. Radovan Karadzic cursing

13     God, swearing at God.

14             It is a fallacious view, Mr. Tieger, that I had been in any way

15     the favourite of Mr. Karadzic's.  In fact, he had reservations --

16     unjustified reservations towards me, although I did my hardest to do

17     everything honorably, decently, complying with the law, et cetera.  You

18     will see that the Ministry of Justice, over the period of a year or

19     perhaps 10 months, was created, and it still functions to this very day

20     upon those very foundations in the republic.  I did have the support of

21     Dr. Karadzic at that time, especially in the selection of non-Serb

22     personnel, both in the prosecutorial and the judicature offices in

23     general, but Mrs. Plavsic was against this.  She was always saying that I

24     was, you know, fishing in murky waters, or this and that, which was

25     totally unfair in my regards.

Page 4629

 1             Mr. Tieger, I was practically driven away to Belgrade in that

 2     session.

 3        Q.   And, Mr. --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just an intervention.  Not only

 5     prosecutorial, but also support for the court organs.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter believes she said "judicature."

 7             THE ACCUSED: [In English] Probably "judicial."

 8             [Interpretation] It should be "judicial."

 9             [In English] Prosecutorial and judicial.

10             [Interpretation] Because the ministry proposed the prosecutors

11     and the court staff, the judicial staff too.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  It should be corrected.

13             MR. TIEGER:

14        Q.   Mr. Mandic, thank you for that information, some of which you had

15     alluded to earlier.  But I had asked you about something you said in the

16     Stanisic/Zupljanin case in connection with Plavsic's invitation to

17     paramilitaries to come to Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you had said the

18     following at page 9726, referring to Mr. Djeric:

19             "He singled out me and Stanisic, and he said I had ties with

20     Karadzic, and yet I wouldn't exchange a word with Karadzic for half a

21     year because he allowed Plavsic and others to do this."

22             And that's a quote.  That's what you said in Stanisic/Zupljanin;

23     is that correct, Mr. Mandic?

24        A.   I can say that what is in the record is quite correct.  I was not

25     angry with President Karadzic because I had been sent to Belgrade,

Page 4630

 1     because I had intended to go there in autumn 1992, in agreement with

 2     Djeric.  And that was not much of a problem to me, personally, because my

 3     family was in Belgrade and I, in a way, wanted to go there.  My son was a

 4     cadet at the Military Academy in Belgrade from 1991, and my other son and

 5     my wife were there.  But the way in which, actually, conditions were

 6     placed on this by Biljana Plavsic, in contravention of the International

 7     Law and the legislation of Republika Srpska, the way in which she

 8     violated these was something that angered me and was the cause of my

 9     dissatisfaction.  But she was a great authority there, in some segments

10     even a greater authority than the president of Republika Srpska, and

11     evidently now we can see what some of her positions have led to, totally

12     without reason.  The Serbs had a good army.  We had a good organisation,

13     we created a judiciary, the police force.  We did not want not to live

14     side by side with our Muslims.  We were afraid of some new Muslims who

15     were differently inclined, who wanted to introduce religious laws into

16     state institutions, the Shiite laws, et cetera.

17             Mr. Tieger, let me just finish my sentence.

18             We were afraid of these new Muslims who were not turned towards

19     Turkey and Ankara, which was a secular state, but would turn and look up

20     to Iran, the religious states, and that could create problems for our

21     state.  You can see that now these self-same Muslims are blowing up

22     police stations in their own federation, in the federation, because it is

23     a state of the kind that it is.  We didn't have any problem with our own

24     Muslims, so to speak.  We wanted to live together with them side by side.

25        Q.   And, Mr. Mandic, just so I'm clear and the Court is clear about

Page 4631

 1     your position about the paramilitaries that Mrs. Plavsic invited in:  In

 2     the course of your Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony, you refer to them as

 3     people who torch, rob, kill, kill children, and is that an accurate

 4     reflection of your view about those paramilitaries?

 5        A.   Mr. Tieger, you have again extracted my testimony, a part of it,

 6     from the context.  I said that some of the paramilitary units, which came

 7     from other countries other than from Bosnia-Herzegovina, were criminals

 8     and did not want to subject themselves to the control of the army and the

 9     police, and it is true they did kill non-Serbs and loot their property.

10     But once there were no more non-Serbs to kill or loot, they did the same

11     to the Serb population.  They killed Serbs, they looted their property,

12     they raped their women.  They were criminals, and those of their ilk were

13     arrested by Mico Stanisic, to my knowledge.  But Ms. Biljana Plavsic was

14     opposed to all that.

15        Q.   Let me direct your attention to some contemporaneous

16     conversations or documents related to the paramilitaries and see if they

17     are consistent with your information or if you know something

18     independently about them as well.

19             The first one would be 65 ter 30712.

20             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, have we looked at any paragraph in that

21     22nd session?

22             MR. TIEGER:  Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour, right.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I don't remember we looked at a specific paragraph

24     in the minute, because the witness said he knew.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Right.  We moved on pretty -- to some other issues.

Page 4632

 1     It's at pages 19 and 20 of both the English and the B/C/S, and it might

 2     be useful to look at an excerpt --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've re-told it all

 4     to you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could admit the first

 6     page, as we saw the first page.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  So you're minded to tender that?

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour, and I'm --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  The transcript or the minute of that 22nd Session?

10             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, I had intend to do look at the particular

11     excerpt.  I think that -- I think we were in agreement that that session,

12     along with the others, will be admitted over time.  I'm more than happy

13     to look at the particular portion of that session at which Mrs. -- during

14     which Mrs. Plavsic is speaking.

15             JUDGE KWON:  It's up to you, Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Well, if the Assembly session is tendered, we can

17     look at it at leisure.  I don't think it's going to change the witness's

18     mind about what was said, particularly, but I'm -- again, it won't take

19     long to look at it, if the Court is minded to do so.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Unless it is objected to, that session transcript

21     will be admitted as ...?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  P1105, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  P1105?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 4633

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And at the end of today's session, if you could tell

 3     us where we are, in terms of your intention to tender those session

 4     transcripts or the like.  We'll come to that later on.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Sure, Your Honour, I'll be happy to.

 6        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I had just been about to play for you and the Court

 7     30712.  We have to go to Sanction to do that.

 8                           [Audio-clip played]

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Good morning.  It's

10     Biljana Plavsic.  Is Zeljko there?"

11             "No, he's not up yet.  Mr. Rus is here.  Do you want to speak to

12     him?"

13             "All right, put him on."

14             "Hello."

15             "Good morning."

16             "Good morning.  My deepest respect, madam.  How are you?"

17             "I'm the commander's batman."

18             "I know, I know."

19             "Just getting ready for the raising of the flag."

20             "Ah, the raising of the flag.  I won't hold you very long."

21             "No, no, no problem at all."

22             "Let me ask you something.  Zeljko is not there; right?"

23             "Well, you know what?  I would like to ask you if you wouldn't

24     mind telling me, if you can, that is, when you would call again so that

25     I can tell him."

Page 4634

 1             "You know why ... I'm ..."

 2             "Well, he's got to bed.  He was in the field, and ..."

 3             "All right, all right, never mind.  This is what it is about.  I

 4     have returned to my base, the one where I am from."

 5             "Hold on ... all right."

 6             "Yes, but I haven't arrived home yet.  One small part was

 7     blocked.  But I wanted -- ask him if we asked him to come here, if that

 8     was possible in theory."

 9             "Look, ma'am ..."

10             "So then I'll -- from whom -- I don't have the authorisation to

11     speak on his behalf."

12             "I know, of course."

13             "But in any case, I'll give him your message immediately."

14             "Yes, give him the message.  When I get to my apartment,

15     I'll ..."

16             " ... call him."

17             "Yes, and then I won't ask this.  I'll just ask if you can

18     possibly bring the merchandise."

19             "Understood, understood."

20             "Sure?"

21             "Yes, bravo, very clever."

22             "Right.  Look, ma'am."

23             "Yes."

24             "If you can call him ... just let me check the time.  It's 8.00

25     now.  So if you can call him in about two hours, I'll tell him that --"

Page 4635

 1             "All right."

 2             "In an hour or ..."

 3             "All right, all right."

 4             "So you won't worry about that."

 5             "Right, give him my regards."

 6             "I'm really sorry that the situation is like this now ... he

 7     really is not up ... you know, he's always there from the raising of the

 8     flag, but he went -- for the raising of the flag, but he went to bed very

 9     late."

10             "All right.  Tell me, how are things in Zvornik?"

11             "Sorry?"

12             "How are things in Zvornik?  Did Pejo go there?"

13             "Well, I don't know.  He's supposed to go there as well to

14     visit ..."

15             "Yes, yes, I know."

16             " ... the entire situation, because there are all sorts of

17     rumours ..."

18             "Yes, yes, uh-huh."

19             "He has to be here ... poor him.  He really has the least time

20     for himself.  I'll tell him all that."

21             "All right.  If I call you from a different phone, then I'll just

22     ask if he can bring that to me here so that we'd know theoretically if it

23     is possible.  And then we should agree about things."

24             "Excellent."

25             "Right.  Give him my regards."

Page 4636

 1             "It was an honour speaking to you, madam."

 2             "Thank you very much."

 3             MR. TIEGER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Mandic, did you recognise any of the voices and the

 5     participants in that conversation?

 6        A.   I just recognised Biljana Plavsic's voice.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And were you able to follow the conversation?

 8        A.   [No interpretation]

 9        Q.   And, first of all --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Were you aware, at the time of this conversation on the 23rd of

12     April, 1992, that Mrs. Plavsic was in direct contact with Arkan or

13     Arkan's men?

14        A.   No, I was not.  I do not recall that.

15        Q.   And let me ask you two things.  Is that -- is the timing of the

16     intercept generally familiar with your information about whether and when

17     Arkan's men showed up in Sarajevo?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I just say this:  Did the

19     witness at all identify that this was Arkan?  Do we know whom

20     Mrs. Plavsic is talking to?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the witness only said he recognised

22     the voice of Biljana Plavsic.  Just --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But we are going on as if he had

24     identified that she was talking to one of Arkan's men.

25             JUDGE KWON:  The other man, i.e., Rus, identified Arkan's first

Page 4637

 1     name during the course of conversation, did he not?  Who is Zeljko,

 2     Mr. Mandic?  Do you know Zeljko?  Was it not the first name of Mr. Arkan?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was.  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  So do you confirm, then, Mrs. Plavsic was talking to

 5     one of the men of Arkan or not?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot, Your Honours.  I had not

 7     heard -- I have not heard this conversation before this.  I can only

 8     confirm that this is the voice of Biljana Plavsic.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

10             Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   And do you know approximately when -- whether -- first of all, do

13     you know whether or not Arkan's men appeared in Sarajevo to fight on

14     behalf of the Bosnian Serbs?

15        A.   I don't know about that, Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, can this document be marked for

17     identification before I move on to the next one, please?

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, if marking it for identification

21     indicates that this witness has been able to make any foundation for

22     this, we would object.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Well, Your Honour, the witness has been able to make

24     some identification, but I specifically asked for it to be marked for

25     identification because I think there will be further evidence concerning

Page 4638

 1     this particular intercept, and I anticipate precisely that, in terms of

 2     its authentication.  So I take Mr. Robinson's objection to some extent,

 3     but clearly the witness has provided information which will be part of

 4     that ultimate tendering for admissibility.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  And, furthermore, the witness identified the voice

 6     of Mrs. Plavsic.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Correct.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  So, Mr. President, sometimes I'm a little

 9     confused, when we mark something for identification, whether that's some

10     step where simply once intercept evidence is found to be reliable, all of

11     the intercepts will come in without any further proof, and I don't think

12     this should fall into that category.  So to the -- maybe we're just

13     agreeing.  I don't understand exactly, but I just wanted to make the

14     point that there would be some further evidence, in our view, necessary

15     before this should be admissible, regardless of the question of

16     authenticity of intercept evidence.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE KWON:  The content of the conversation is related to a

19     certain part of the witness's evidence, and the witness identified one of

20     the voices, and the Prosecution is going to call a witness who will be

21     filling up the gap.  And what else?  And when we -- at the end of the

22     day, when we admit the marked exhibit for identification, we will

23     consider all its circumstances comprehensively.  On that basis, we see no

24     problem in marking this exhibit for identification.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be MFI P1106, MFI.

Page 4639

 1             MR. TIEGER:  If we could turn next -- thank you, Mr. President.

 2             If we could turn next to 65 ter 31679.  This is a conversation

 3     between Mr. Prstojevic and Mr. Gagovic on the 14th of May, 1992.  We may

 4     need to recommence that.

 5                           [Audio-clip played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Well, fuck, mistakes, you should

 7     not have made mistakes."

 8             "I know, but the men did not make mistakes.  They were not

 9     ordered to--"

10             "Leader?"

11             "Hey!"

12             "It is Prstojevic."

13             "How are you?"

14             "Thank God, I'm fine.  If it weren't for this one mistake, I

15     could be singing at the top of my voice."

16             "Well, fuck, mistakes, you should not have made mistakes."

17             "I know.  We did not, but the men made mistakes.  They were not

18     ordered to do what they did."

19             "Well ..."

20             "Our movement is now a bit ... we cannot move with complete ...

21     with that staff."

22             "Sorry?"

23             "Complete hardware is practically immovable right now."

24             "Well, it is not my fault."

25             "That means that is practically crossed out."

Page 4640

 1             "It is not ..."

 2             "Please, I have manpower, but I do not have the hardware now."

 3             "There is no ... he has manpower, but he does not have hardware.

 4     That hardware should not have been wasted, that is ..."

 5             "Where is that commander?"

 6             "Commander Popadic is there on the terrain, on the spot.  At

 7     least two vehicles, two armoured personnel carriers should be replaced at

 8     this check-point."

 9             "Fuck it."

10             "No crew, I do not need crew.  I have the crew, I have

11     everything.  I have surplus manpower.  That means ..."

12             "Are APCs that arrived yesterday all right?"

13             "Yes, the ones that arrived yesterday."

14             "Is there a tank that is in working order?  You should pull out

15     those APCs.  You should not let them fall into enemy's hands."

16             "I do not know for sure if anything is in working order here.

17     Two tanks, three APCs, and so on.  I'm not sure for this check-point."

18             "Fuck."

19             "And those two yesterday are with Arkan's men?"

20             "Where are they?"

21             "They are probably -- there is no ammunition for one of them,

22     probably ..."

23             "Well, fuck, everything ... and where is that commander?  I want

24     to speak to him."

25             "Okay.  I will call him to get in touch with you.  Let me just

Page 4641

 1     find him."

 2             "Have him call me."

 3             "Please."

 4             "Okay, bye."

 5             MR. TIEGER:

 6        Q.   First of all, Mr. Mandic, I think you've already indicated to us

 7     who Mr. Prstojevic is.  Did you know who Mr. Gagovic was?

 8        A.   No, I did not know who Gagovic is.

 9        Q.   And if I refer to him as Colonel Gagovic, would that assist in

10     any way?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   By this time, mid-May 1992, were you aware that Arkan's men were

13     in Sarajevo and working with Bosnian Serb authorities?

14        A.   No, Mr. Tieger, this is the first time I see this conversation.

15     I'm not sure.  I cannot recognise any one of the participants.

16        Q.   Okay.  Just to be clear, are you disputing that it's Prstojevic's

17     voice or you just don't happen to recognise it as you hear it in this

18     conversation?

19        A.   No, Mr. Tieger, I'm not disputing it, but I cannot recognise

20     either one of the two voices.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

22             And, Your Honour, I'd like that marked for identification.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, again, I maybe should just note at

24     this point that we don't think there has been any foundation whatsoever

25     for its admissibility.  But if you want to mark it for identification for

Page 4642

 1     some other purpose, you can do that.  But following my understanding of

 2     the way we are proceeding, it shouldn't be marked for identification.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think any question was put to the witness as

 4     to the content of it, so let's admit it later on with another witness,

 5     Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, just to be clear on that, I think there

 7     was -- the conversation clearly refers to the presence of Arkan's men in

 8     Sarajevo, so I asked a question about Mr. Mandic's awareness at the time

 9     of that.  This is clearly -- clearly arises from the subject-matter at

10     hand, the invitation for Arkan's forces and other paramilitaries to come

11     in, contemporaneous evidence of that, and I wanted -- so I'm not

12     suggesting that this particular witness provides the specific

13     authentication of the intercept via the conventional means of recognising

14     the voices or participating in the conversation, but that when that

15     happens, this will clearly be relevant to this examination.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  You could have put that question without the

18     document, and I don't think we need to admit this at this time.  So we'll

19     not admit this, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Well, okay.  And, Your Honour, I'm not going to

21     spend time -- I appreciate that.  I have alluded to the possibility of

22     discussing the nature of admissibility with respect to that.

23             To give you an example -- well, let me just move on, and we can

24     hopefully talk about that later.  Thank you.

25             If we could move on to the next document, 30724.

Page 4643

 1             This, Mr. Mandic, is a conversation conducted on the 15th of May,

 2     1992, involving Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Zugic.

 3                           [Audio-clip played]

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Hello."

 5             "Yes?"

 6             "Mico speaking.  Who is that?"

 7             "I beg your pardon?"

 8             "Well, the Serbian MUP is calling."

 9             "Mico Stanisic?"

10             "Yes."

11             "Veljko Zugic speaking."

12             "What's up, Zugic?"

13             "SAO Romanija.  How are you, Mico?"

14             "What are you doing?"

15             "Here I am."

16             "I've been here for a month.  Do send it from down there.  I've

17     just come from Sokolac, from the radio and television.  Shut down."

18             "Good."

19             "Today we've been through, well, a lot of trouble."

20             "Good.  And where are you now?"

21             "I'm in the Serb municipality of Ilidza."

22             "Tell me what the situation is like ..."

23             "With Vuk and Mlaco, with Prstojevic."

24             "Tell me, what is the situation like over there?"

25             "Well, we got reinforcement from Gagovic, some Arkan's and

Page 4644

 1     Seselj's men came, I don't know ..."

 2             "Good."

 3             MR. TIEGER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Mandic, do you recognise the voices of any of the

 5     participants in that conversation, either of the participants in that

 6     conversation?

 7        A.   I recognise the voice of Mico Stanisic, minister of the police.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask whether this is the

 9     entire conversation, or is there more?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, are you in the position to answer that

11     question?

12             MR. TIEGER:  Well, this is the entirety of the conversation

13     that's ERN'd as the conversation on -- so the answer is, yes,

14     Your Honour, in its entirety, in so far as I'm aware.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It doesn't look like a finished

17     conversation to me.  It seems to have been edited, because the ending is

18     not very logical.

19             JUDGE KWON:  It's not a proper intervention, Mr. Karadzic.

20             Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.  What is your question?

21             MR. TIEGER:

22        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you indicated in your Krajisnik testimony that you

23     were aware of the presence of some Seseljevci in Sarajevo in April and

24     May 1992; correct?

25        A.   Mr. Tieger, in April -- or, rather, May, there were members of

Page 4645

 1     the Territorial Defence in Grbavica, the Territorial Defence of

 2     Nova Sarajevo, who were in the party of Vojislav Seselj.  However, they

 3     were inhabitants of Sarajevo; that is, Brne Gavrilovic, who was born in

 4     Sarajevo, and he was in Seselj's political party.  However, he belonged

 5     to the TO, the Territorial Defence of Nova Sarajevo.  I knew of these men

 6     who were in Grbavica at the time.  However, they are from Sarajevo,

 7     itself.  From the point of view of their party affiliation, they are

 8     Radicals, but territorially they were from Novo Sarajevo.  Gavrilovic was

 9     the leader of that small group.  I can't remember his first name.  His

10     nickname was Brne, and he was born in Sarajevo.

11        Q.   By mid-May -- did Mr. Stanisic expression concern to you in

12     mid-May about the presence of Arkan's forces or Seselj's forces in

13     Sarajevo?

14        A.   I can't recall, Mr. Tieger.  There weren't any men of Seselj's.

15     Vojislav Seselj was just bragging.  He was turning his political party

16     into an army.  However, all of these people were from Bosnia-Herzegovina,

17     and they fought in the units of the Territorial Defence or the army.  And

18     he was claiming that these people belonged to them.

19             Let me give you another example from New Sarajevo.  At the Jewish

20     cemetery, there was this man Aleksic.  I can't remember his first name.

21     Seselj kept saying that he was one of his men, but he was actually there

22     providing security for the Jewish cemetery, and he was a resident of

23     Sarajevo from before the war.  It so happened that he had been born in

24     Herzegovina, actually.

25        Q.   Well, Mr. Mandic, are you disputing Mr. Zugic's comment as

Page 4646

 1     reflected in this intercept, that some Arkanovci and Seseljevci came and

 2     provided reinforcement along with Gagovic?

 3        A.   I don't know that, Mr. Tieger.  I'm not disputing it.  Perhaps

 4     Munir Alibabic doctored this conversation somewhat.  I don't know.  In

 5     fact, I do not at all know who Nedeljko Zugic is.

 6        Q.   You were aware that when Seselj's men were encircled on the 21st

 7     of April, 1992, that Seselj called to ensure that they be assisted in

 8     getting removed from that encirclement; correct?  That's reflected in an

 9     intercept that you listened to, authenticated, and discussed in the

10     Krajisnik case.

11        A.   Mr. Tieger, those were members of the Territorial Defence of

12     New Sarajevo, Nova Sarajevo.  They had descended to Grbavica from Vrace,

13     to the delimitation spot which divided the Sarajevo into the Muslim and

14     the Serb part.  They were members of Vojislav Seselj's Radical Party, but

15     they were all Sarajevans, inhabitants of Vrace and Grbavica, and members

16     of the TO of Nova Sarajevo.  Now, what they called themselves, I know

17     that they had a party leader which they all recognised, but I do know

18     that Brne Gavrilovic was from Nova Sarajevo.  He did not come there from

19     Belgrade.  He went to Grbavica from his own house in Sarajevo.

20        Q.   Let me turn next to 65 ter 01601.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, it should be -- what the

22     witness said, he didn't say -- he was by his home there, not he came

23     there from his own house in Sarajevo.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be looked into while editing

25     the transcript.  Thank you.

Page 4647

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, if I may just -- I'm not suggesting

 2     it's a particular problem in this instance, but maybe a more prudent

 3     protocol can be adopted for translation interventions.  I think in

 4     previous cases, the protocol has been for counsel to identify the

 5     particular portion that's at issue and ask for some review by the

 6     translation unit, rather than, in the presence of the witness, provide a

 7     revised translation on the spot.  Again, I'm not suggesting a particular

 8     problem in this instance, but I think it's probably a more prudent course

 9     adopt in the future.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Points taken.  Bear that in mind, Mr. Karadzic.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   Mr. Mandic, 65 ter 01606.  My apologies.  It says "01601" in the

13     transcript, and perhaps I misspoke.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Return to e-court from Sanction?

15             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, we should return to e-court.  My apologies.

16        Q.   Mr. Mandic, we'll be looking at a report to the minister of the

17     Ministry of the Interior, dated the 10th of August, 1992, and I want to

18     direct your attention to a brief passage on both page 3 in English and

19     B/C/S, and at the top of both pages, which provide as follows:

20             "It was stated, while inspecting the Pale Public Security

21     Station, that a group of Arkanovci/Arkan's men/are still present at the

22     Panorama Hotel.  Chief Koroman presents that as a solved problem, because

23     he is expecting their commander in a couple of days, with whom he would

24     solve it without a problem."

25             First, Mr. Mandic, let me ask you to identify for the Court what

Page 4648

 1     the Panorama Hotel was and who was generally present in the

 2     Panorama Hotel, what function it served during that period of time.

 3        A.   The Hotel Panorama at Pale was a hotel which is at Pale.  I don't

 4     quite understand the question, in fact.

 5        Q.   Was it used for any official function?  Did members of the

 6     Republika Srpska political or military authorities use that facility?

 7        A.   To my knowledge, no, Mr. Tieger.  The government used the

 8     Hotel Bistrica at Mount Jahorina, and the president of the

 9     Republika Srpska and the president of the Assembly were in a separate

10     facility, the so-called Karadjordje's Inn.  It is the so-called king's

11     house, the royal mansion.  On the ground floor was the president of

12     Republika Srpska, to the best of my recollection.  I don't know the exact

13     layout.  I know that President Karadzic later moved to the premises of

14     the former Famos, and the Assembly members and the Presidency members

15     were there for a time.  And it used to be the king's house in a section

16     of Pale towards Mount Jahorina, which they used for a while.

17        Q.   We've seen previous references in both May and now here in August

18     to the presence of Arkan within Sarajevo.  Does that refresh your

19     recollection at all, Mr. Mandic, about your awareness of Arkan's -- or

20     the presence of Arkan's forces in Sarajevo in the spring and summer of

21     1992?

22        A.   Mr. Tieger, I did not know that members of that paramilitary

23     unit, the so-called Arkan's Tigers, came to the area of Sarajevo.  I

24     didn't know about that at all.

25             As regards the so-called Seselj's men and Brne Gavrilovic, these

Page 4649

 1     were a group of Sarajevans from the Territorial Defence who were Radicals

 2     only in the political sense, but they had not come there from Serbia.

 3     They lived in Sarajevo.  I know Gavrilovic personally.  He is a

 4     Sarajevan.  He was saved by the special police when he was encircled at

 5     Grbavica, and I had sent this special police to extract him from the

 6     encirclement.  He had met several friends of his.  Now, what they called

 7     themselves, whether they called themselves Seselj's men or something

 8     else, or -- I don't know, but Seselj is only associated with them

 9     politically, rather they with Seselj.

10        Q.   There's a limited amount of time left.  So rather than get into

11     something else, let me ask you one quick question and show you something

12     very quickly.

13             You said, in the course of your Stanisic/Zupljanin case, that it

14     was -- referring to Mrs. Plavsic and, I gather, Dr. Djeric, and this is

15     at page 9725, that these vain professor types did not realise what it

16     means for people to go unchecked into villages, robbing and killing

17     people and children.  It seemed important for them "to have photographs

18     taken with them."  First of all, do you recall saying that?

19        A.   Yes, yes, I held that opinion then, and I still do.  I knew that

20     General Mladic, the commander of the Army of the Republika Srpska,

21     arrested these paramilitary units, and Mico Stanisic also arrested such

22     paramilitary members, but Biljana Plavsic would intercede on their behalf

23     and have them released, and then at Assembly sessions she should say how

24     they did not allow our brethren over the -- across the Drina River, those

25     from Serbia, to come and help their brethren here in their historical

Page 4650

 1     task.  She was an authority, especially among the folk, among the plain

 2     people, but she created these problems.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  And I just want to show you one video-clip and ask

 4     you --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Can we do that tomorrow, Mr. Tieger?  There are a

 6     couple of matters.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour, of course.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Are you going to tender that 1606 MUP report?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  We would object to that.  We don't believe

11     the witness has spoken to that at all.

12             JUDGE KWON:  To a certain extent, the witness confirmed the

13     existence of some Seselj's men or Arkan's men, albeit in a qualified

14     sense, did he not; Gavrilovic, et cetera?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Just looking at the part of the document that's on

16     the screen, I don't see any reference to Seselj, but I do see a reference

17     to Arkan, and I think he disavowed any knowledge of Arkan's men inside --

18     so for that particular document, I don't think he's confirmed any part of

19     it.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I'm a little confused by the position

21     taken by the Defence, which is certainly contrary to what I thought was

22     being urged before.

23             Again, I distinguish this situation where --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

25             Mr. Mandic, you are free to go now.  I'll see you tomorrow

Page 4651

 1     morning at 9.00.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just ask you, Your Honours,

 3     to be informed at least, in general terms, how much time I need to spend

 4     here more, I have to stay here?  I've been here for seven days now, so

 5     how much more time is required by the Court, by the Prosecutor?  If you

 6     could be so kind as to give me an indication, if that is possible, so

 7     that I can plan my own time.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Let's try to find that out right now, to the best of

 9     my ability.

10             Mr. Tieger, how much longer do you expect to have for your

11     examination for this witness?

12             MR. TIEGER:  I'll certainly be completing it in the first session

13     tomorrow, and probably well within the first -- in the first part of the

14     first session, I anticipate, but within the first session.

15             JUDGE KWON:  At most, about an hour, two hours.  And we allowed

16     about 20 hours at first, and so you can gather how much longer you have

17     to stay here.  But it may be subject to further changes.

18             See you tomorrow morning.  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, I cut it off in the middle, but have you

22     completed your statement?

23             MR. TIEGER:  No.  I just wanted to distinguish between

24     circumstances where documents are brought to witnesses that don't arise

25     from the examination, itself, or from the evidence provided by the

Page 4652

 1     witness.

 2             In this case, the witness talked about paramilitaries being

 3     invited in.  I'm presenting him with official documents in this case

 4     reflecting the presence of those same paramilitaries.  I think that's

 5     exactly the kind of position Mr. Robinson was urging on the Court

 6     previously.  I appreciate the fact that he's trying to be consistent with

 7     what he understands to be some of the rulings that took place before.  I

 8     actually think they are distinguishable on the basis of the fact that

 9     those were rulings made on documents that were presented to witnesses who

10     weren't talking about those particular subjects, who were then presented

11     with those subjects, and essentially being educated on those subjects.

12     But I think, as a matter of principle, Mr. Robinson and Mr. Karadzic

13     would prefer to see official documents come in in this fashion when they

14     are raised in an appropriate context, as I believe they were here.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  As I alluded to that effect to a certain extent, the

17     witness certainly commented upon the content of the document.  As such,

18     that can be admitted.  So we'll admit that document.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1107.

20             JUDGE KWON:  With the indulgence --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something, just a word?

22             The Defence was in a similar position when it dealt with

23     documents speaking about the same phenomena that the witness spoke about.

24     They were trying to refute what the witness was saying, and they were not

25     admitted into evidence just because the documents were secret ones.

Page 4653

 1     Well, I have to express my dissatisfaction.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will do its utmost to apply the rule

 3     consistently and evenly.

 4             There are a couple of other matters.  We'll come back to that

 5     Assembly session transcript later on.

 6             On 30th June, Mr. Robinson advised the Chamber that MFI D195 has

 7     been translated into English, and requested that it be admitted into

 8     evidence.  Having reviewed the transcript of the 20th May 2010, when this

 9     document was used with Witness van Lynden, the Chamber is satisfied that

10     it should be admitted, and orders that it now be marked as an admitted

11     exhibit.

12             Can we go back -- can we go into private session briefly.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4654

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That's it for today.  We'll rise until

17     tomorrow morning at 9.00.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.08 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day of July,

20                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.