Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5177

 1                           Thursday, 15 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning to you all.  Welcome back,

 6     Mr. Robinson.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I was informed that you had something to raise

 9     before we begin today's business.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, thank you very much.

11             It involves the time for the interview of General Abdel-Razek,

12     who is supposed to be testifying on Monday.  And the UNDU has indicated

13     that they would not accommodate an interview over the weekend with him,

14     and they are proposing a Friday-evening interview, which means that

15     tomorrow Dr. Karadzic would be cross-examining or be involved in the

16     court from 9.00 to 3.00, and they would want the interview from 4.00

17     until 7.00.  And we're simply not prepared for the interview,

18     unfortunately, under those circumstances, so we were going to ask if the

19     Chamber could possibly sit on Monday afternoon instead of the schedule of

20     9.00 to 3.00 so that we could conduct the interview Monday morning

21     between 9.00 and 12.00, in which time we could prepare for it over the

22     weekend.  Given the pace of the trial, we think that it's really not

23     reasonable to require Dr. Karadzic to interview a witness on the Friday

24     evening when he's been cross-examining for the last two weeks.

25             Thank you.

Page 5178

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We are sitting 9.00 to 2.30 tomorrow.  That's one

 2     thing.  And I will inquire with all the staff involved whether it would

 3     be possible to sit from 1.30 to 7.00 on Monday, again three 90-minute

 4     sessions.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you very much.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, you have --

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             I don't have an objection, in principle, but I am not aware of

 9     the particular circumstances of the witness.  So now that this is on the

10     table, I will inquire of the relevant participants and see if we have any

11     useful -- any significant feedback for the Court in regard to this issue.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Can we hear the responses from parties and the

13     Registry as to the feasibility of sitting from 1.30 to 7.00 by the end of

14     today's session.

15             Well, let's bring in the witness.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17                           WITNESS:  MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, let's continue your cross-examination.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Good morning to all.

24             Could I please have in e-court 65 ter 01588.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

Page 5179

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Minister, this is going to be a very brief

 2     survey of one of a series of documents dealing with a topic that we

 3     touched upon yesterday.

 4             Can you please have a look at this.  It's the 19th of July.  From

 5     the level of the ministry, this is what's being done -- or, actually, why

 6     don't you explain this to us.  The conclusions of the minister of the

 7     interior are being elaborated and sent further down.  Could you explain?

 8        A.   This was sent from the ministry to all centres, and there were

 9     five of them in Republika Srpska; namely, Banja Luka, Bijeljina, Doboj,

10     Sarajevo and Trebinje.  The objective of this communication is to resolve

11     the question of jurisdiction between the police and the Army of

12     Republika Srpska; also to deal with certain problems related to the

13     activity of paramilitary formations in the territory of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, Republika Srpska.

15        Q.   Could you please look at the second paragraph and the first

16     sentence under A.

17        A.   "A.  Problems related to the activities of some paramilitary

18     units, especially in cases where crimes have been committed or the public

19     peace and order violated to a large extent, the problems of joint command

20     and conflicts with authorities, positive or negative connotations in

21     psychological/propaganda terms, the possibility of confrontation and

22     other relevant information - as well as suggestions as to what measures

23     could be applied to resolve the problems."

24        Q.   Thank you.  So it says up here that it had been agreed that

25     security services would submit data.  Could you just read the first

Page 5180

 1     sentence of subparagraph B?

 2        A.   "Data and information regarding police involvement in those

 3     combat actions when their involvement is necessary."

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we have the next page.  I believe it's the next page in

 6     English too.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Minister, since these are documents that are being sent to the

 9     ground and sometimes can be rather imprecise, let us see what V says, and

10     then we'll see what G says in relation to civilians.

11        A.   "V.  Problems related to the prevention/detection of crimes and

12     perpetrators.  The functioning of combined check-points; the seizure of

13     vehicles on the grounds that they have been acquired or registered

14     illegally; the defence of borders; professional activities, combat

15     support," et cetera.

16        Q.   Can we have a look at G.  What kinds of persons does it deal

17     with?

18        A.   "Procedures and jurisdiction; the treatment and custody of

19     prisoners, persons evacuated from the combat operation zones; collection

20     camps into which the army brings Muslim residents without any documents

21     that might state reasons for such action, and then leave these undefined

22     camps to the organs of the interior."

23             What they're saying is the police.

24        Q.   Isn't it clear here that if the military is carrying out a

25     particular action, and then they take the civilian population from the

Page 5181

 1     combat area and put them up somewhere?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, actually, I can read this too:

 4             "Work of the military judiciary --"

 5             All of this can be read out, but finally it says that:

 6             "The dead-line is the 25th of July, 1992."

 7             Mr. Stanisic, minister of the interior, signed this; right?

 8        A.   If this document was written on the 19th of July and the

 9     dead-line is the 25th, that is to say, there was a seven-day dead-line to

10     operate on the basis of these conclusions.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Minister, are you aware of a single case of a

12     different type of rounding up the civilian population, except for the

13     case with combat zones?

14        A.   I'm not aware of any other case.

15        Q.   Is this in line with the commander -- with the order of the

16     commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps that civilians should not be

17     sent to barracks, to him, but that the civilians should be sent

18     elsewhere?

19        A.   That is in line with what Cedo Sladojevic, the chief of staff of

20     the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, concluded.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can this document be admitted?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D450.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5182

 1             Can we have 1D208.  It is also 1D3012.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   In the previous document, we saw that there are some conflicts,

 4     that there is an overlap in authority and in carrying out one's duties?

 5        A.   Yes, and disobedience at local level, vis-a-vis the central

 6     authorities.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  This document -- well, I don't know if we have a

 8     translation.  That is what it deals with, so this is what I'd like to ask

 9     you -- no, no, this is not it.  This is -- no, no, the previous document,

10     the previous one.  Yes, that's fine in Serbian.

11             Can you tell us what this is?

12        A.   This has to do with a clash between the military police and the

13     civilian police in Drvar.

14        Q.   And it says here that around 9.30 p.m. --

15        A.   Yes.  Around 9.30 p.m., 30 policemen, military policemen of the

16     2nd Corps, attacked the Public Security Station of Drvar.  Probably it

17     had to do with some coffee bars and description of law and order.  That

18     is what led to these clashes between the police and the military police;

19     that is to say, between the army and the military.

20        Q.   Can you read out this paragraph:  "On the occasion of this

21     attack ..."

22        A.   "On the occasion of these attacks, members of the military police

23     threatened that they would have a show-down with the police; that they

24     would attack the Public Security Station; that they would mistreat the

25     police on different roads, and that Zoljas would be flying at the

Page 5183

 1     station; that they would expel the police from Drvar; and that the police

 2     had allegedly declared war on the military police."

 3        Q.   Is this a constant danger, that there can be no coexistence

 4     between two armed formations in a single area without sparks flying?

 5        A.   Yes, this was a conflict between two armed forces, and that was a

 6     major problem.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can this document be marked for identification?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, pending translation.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D451, Your Honours.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we have D95.  This has already been admitted.  It is also

13     1D206, but D95 certainly has a translation.  Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Minister, this is my reaction to some of the things that were

16     happening again in the municipalities of Birac and Stari Herzegovina.

17     These municipalities listed here, are they in that area?

18        A.   Yes, Gorazde, Foca, Han Pijesak, Sokolac, Rogatica, Visegrad,

19     Rudo and Cajnice.  That's the area of Old Herzegovina, Stari Herzegovina.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me what it is that I am ordering here?

21        A.   You are ordering all these municipalities here that all the

22     villages in which the Croat and Muslim population surrender their

23     weapons, and state that they do not intend to fight against us, must

24     enjoy full protection from our Serb state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The

25     presidents of municipalities will be held accountable for that.

Page 5184

 1        Q.   Minister, do you remember that General Mladic on several

 2     occasions asked for their disarming and have them turn into civilians?

 3     Unfortunately, there is a mistake in the translation here.  Instead of

 4     "disarm" it says "surrender."  Do you make a distinction between the two,

 5     yourself?

 6        A.   To disarm means to hand over weapons, whereas to surrender means

 7     that someone will be arrested.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  This document has been admitted, so we don't have to

 9     admit it now.  But we're dealing with that topic, how the civilian

10     population is being treated, even those who had been fighting and that

11     are supposed to give up fighting?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Can we now have D92.  That has also been admitted.  It's an

15     Assembly session held on the 24th and 26th of July, 1992.  Once we've

16     identified it, can we move on to 13 in Serbian and page 17 in English; in

17     the document itself, that is, 13th page in the document itself, and it's

18     actually page 14 in e-court.  So one up in Serbian.  Yes, and page 17 in

19     English.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   This is part of my speech.  I'd like to draw the attention of the

22     participants to this paragraph in the middle that says:

23             "I must say that the Serb people ...," et cetera.  I'll continue

24     in Serbian:

25             "I must say that the Serb people, whose Orthodox nature has kept

Page 5185

 1     them far from being inhumane, have found a number of traitors among

 2     themselves ..."

 3             Can you explain what a traitor is?  I don't know what the

 4     translation was.

 5        A.   People who do not have the characteristics of their own people,

 6     and in a negative context, at that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  "Traitor" is the word used here in the translation,

 8     but the word "izrod" is even worse.  It means does not even belong to

 9     one's own people, one's own kin.  It does not have the same

10     characteristics at all.

11             So, further on it says:

12             "... inhumane people who are committing inhumane acts, ones that

13     we shall try and punish by law."

14             Do you agree that that's what the first paragraph states or,

15     rather, this paragraph in the middle?

16        A.   Yes, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Further on, it says:

18             "From the most severe acts to the smallest, the most severe acts

19     are the rarest, while the smallest ones are the most frequent, statistics

20     show: robbery, unlawful acquiring of property, et cetera, all of that is

21     a consequence of a terrible war, the most horrible among civil wars.  In

22     essence, it is not a civil war, because this is an inter-ethnic and

23     religious war.  I can say that the Serbs have stayed so far away from the

24     property of others, especially property belonging to members of other

25     nations and ethnic groups.  War has changed some people so much that

Page 5186

 1     there are individuals among them who are very keen on other people's

 2     property, both Muslim and Serb property.  Here we have great political

 3     problems.  It is an immense blow to our soldiers' morale, which is

 4     otherwise excellent, but in any case what hurts them are the robberies

 5     and crimes being committed behind their backs while they are fighting."

 6             Was that our position throughout that war of ours?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us about this other paragraph:  "One of

 9     the essential problems ...," et cetera?  Since you were the minister of

10     justice, this is a topic you're familiar with.

11        A.   You spoke with the problem of how the central authorities

12     functioned.  They were in isolation, and the autonomous regions had power

13     in their own hands, and, in a way, they were alienated from the central

14     authorities.

15        Q.   And then it says:

16             "We will all know immediately that ..."

17             Could you read it, actually?

18        A.   Then you said:

19             "That people will then know that this is a proper Serb tendency

20     of insisting on autonomy, creating small princely states with small

21     princes in them."

22        Q.   Can you finish that?  Can you read it to the end?

23        A.   "There is a private interest behind them, invariably, rather than

24     the interest of the people."

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5187

 1             Can we have page 15 in Serbian and page 19 in English.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   In the middle, where it says:  "To the Presidency and the

 4     government ...," and then it goes on to say:  "At this stage --" let's

 5     see:  "At this stage --" let's see where it is in English.  Just a

 6     moment.  Let me see if we have the correct page in English:

 7             "At this stage," the bottom half, "Presidency and government --

 8     at this stage, the priority," you can find this?

 9        A.   "At this stage, the priority is to introduce order in the state

10     mechanisms of power, that is, the state organs; reorganising the police

11     for peacetime; placing the remaining police force within the JNA; placing

12     all the special police, which are being misused by some, under the single

13     command of the republic MUP, not under the command of local lords."

14        Q.   Yes, thank you.  Is this the problem in self-managing socialism,

15     where the local -- the local authorities had too much power in relation

16     to the central authorities?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can we have the next page in Serbian, please, and in English

20     also.  It's page 20 in English.

21             I must tell you that according to the law and international law,

22     everything enacted by various crisis staffs and war presidencies are

23     measures adopted in wartime conditions and are not legal in the way they

24     would be if enacted by the local -- by the government authorities.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

Page 5188

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's at the top of the page in

 2     Serbian.  Let's see it in English.  Where is it in English: "I must

 3     say --" it's around a third of the way down:

 4             "I must say that, therefore, the Assembly recommends that what

 5     the Presidency has decided, enacting as the Assembly, to set up the

 6     legally-elected organs of authority, civilian authorities, which should

 7     not function as the military authority's rival, but as their partner.

 8     Most importantly, one must effectively eliminate para-state and also

 9     paramilitary formations.  The para-state ones at this stage are even more

10     dangerous, because they can make catastrophic decisions that nobody would

11     even recognise in peacetime, but only cause us great damage in the

12     meantime."

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   So the Presidency here is offering its decisions, which if

15     enacted on behalf of the Assembly, for the Assembly to adopt and confirm?

16        A.   Yes.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that in the transcript,

18     it says that the Presidency is offering its decisions which it enacted on

19     behalf of the Assembly for the Assembly to confirm, because this is the

20     obligation of the Presidency to tender its decisions to the Assembly at

21     the first opportunity.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Is this the right interpretation, the one I have just given?

24        A.   Verification or confirmation of your decisions was carried out.

25        Q.   Can it be seen here that the state organs or the Presidency is

Page 5189

 1     informing the Assembly that the para-state organs that have sprung up are

 2     even more dangerous than the paramilitary units?

 3        A.   Here, you highlighted the problem of the paramilitary formations

 4     and the crisis staffs which usurped power, so this was an armed force

 5     which was not under the control of any state organs or the army, and the

 6     local authorities which were not under the control of the Government of

 7     Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  On the same page, it says that in Bosnia -- so

 9     Karadzic is still speaking:

10             "In Bosnia-Herzegovina, no one -- because nobody in

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina --"

12             It's the beginning of the last third of the page, the bottom

13     third, and it's in the middle of the page in Serbian:

14             "... nobody in Bosnia-Herzegovina has legal organs of government,

15     apart from the Serbs, and to trace several paths to further entrench the

16     state and build its first, second, and third floors -- to further

17     entrench the state and build its first, second, and third floors, so we

18     could walk towards the roof of this state house ..."

19             And then it goes on to state lower down:

20             "The government organs must be energetic in implementing

21     everything that has been envisioned and that is of a formative character,

22     building up the state."

23             Was this the constant concern of the government organs?

24        A.   Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 17 to 18 in

Page 5190

 1     Serbian, where Mr. Djeric is speaking.  We already have the page in

 2     English.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Djeric says:

 5             "It is well known that the Government of the Serbian Republic of

 6     BiH began constituting itself and working in wartime conditions of the

 7     most brutal kind."

 8             The next page in English.  Next page in English, please:

 9             "The government started its work in a complete state of

10     isolation.  It was cut off from all sources of communication, ranging

11     from available institutions, services, functions, information, means of

12     equipment, technology and staff."

13             Is this in accordance with what you know about the status of the

14     government and the conditions in which it worked?

15        A.   Well, we spoke about this here.

16        Q.   So although you had certain misunderstandings with Mr. Djeric,

17     you agree in what he says -- you agree with what he says here?

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             May we have page -- the next page in Serbian.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   The government, because of the war -- it's a third of the way

23     down the page.

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you read?

Page 5191

 1        A.   "Namely, at the very beginning of its work, the government was

 2     involved in issuing regulations, setting up the system, and creating the

 3     legal prerequisites for the organisation and work of the state organs,

 4     business enterprises, social activities, and all the other preconditions

 5     for the functioning of the new Serbian state."

 6        Q.   Yes.  Can you go on to where it says:  "Namely, fighting and

 7     other factors ..."  Let's see where it is in English.

 8        A.   "Namely, fighting and other factors have kept the government

 9     fully isolated from municipalities for a long period of time."

10        Q.   Thank you.  I think that Mr. Djeric goes on to discuss this

11     further.  Milanovic also speaks about this, so throughout this transcript

12     we can see this.  This has already been admitted into evidence.

13             So this is the second half of July, and we are still having

14     problems of the same nature as in April; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 191.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   In some parts of the indictment, it has been suggested that the

19     SDS centralised power in Republika Srpska, with the intention of

20     implementing its criminal intent more easily, and the whole indictment

21     hangs on the alleged intent to remove Croats and Muslims from the

22     territories claimed by the Serbs.

23             Are these minutes from a government session held on the 29th of

24     July, 1992?

25        A.   I see the "1st of August" in the English version.

Page 5192

 1        Q.   In the subtitle?

 2        A.   Yes.  The minutes were drawn up on the 1st of August, but the

 3     session was held on the 29th of July, yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next two pages,

 5     AD-1, both in English and Serbian.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Would you say, Minister, that the government tried to centralise

 8     the government administration in order to carry out what is mentioned in

 9     the indictment, or did it do so in order to prevent what was mentioned in

10     the indictment?

11        A.   Well, the government tried to centralise power because on the

12     ground there were certain breaches of the law, serious ones, especially

13     in relation to the non-Serb population.  So we saw that at the proposal

14     of the government, the crisis staffs were abolished.  After that, the

15     autonomous regions were disbanded.  And these local warlords that you

16     mentioned at this session tried to become part of the rule of law, and

17     they could no longer have their own small armies and administrations on

18     the ground.  So the counts in the indictment or the statements in the

19     indictment, saying that the government tried to centralise power for --

20     there were a million people living on the territory.

21        Q.   One and a half million.

22             Can we have the next page in English.

23             And please read point 2, where it says "AD-1."

24        A.   "The government has reviewed its obligations stemming from the

25     conclusions and standpoints of the Assembly of the Serbian Republic of

Page 5193

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 2             What did you say?

 3        Q.   I said point 2 under AD-1.

 4        A.   "The government has looked at the steps that are necessary to

 5     introduce central authority in the republic."

 6        Q.   And the discussion?  You can read it all.

 7        A.   "To that end, it has been concluded there should be an immediate

 8     public debate on the proposal decree on modes of carrying out the work of

 9     ministries or republican organisations outside their headquarters."

10        Q.   And go on.  What would be agreed?

11        A.   "The meetings would focus on district organisation and also to

12     shut down any legal para-state and other organs."

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.  The

14     next page in Serbian, please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Is there a schedule here on attending meetings in the districts,

17     and who should go where, so that they can explain in these districts what

18     a state actually is and how government should function; is that right?

19        A.   Yes.  As someone from Herzegovina, I was sent to Herzegovina.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   And please tell us where it says:  "Discussion was held ..."

23        A.   "Debate was held on how to improve the government in present

24     conditions with inadequate road, telephone, and other links in the

25     field."

Page 5194

 1             The Serbian page is gone.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you please bring back the

 3     Serbian page.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "A debate was also held, how to

 5     make the work of the government more efficient under present conditions

 6     with inadequate road, telephone, and other links with the field.  It was

 7     concluded that larger centres should form units of certain ministries,

 8     acting as their forward services, to implement adopted laws and policies,

 9     and propose new laws or amendments to existing laws on the basis of their

10     experience."

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   Now, let's round this off.  Do you agree, and we've already

13     mentioned that, that in the 1990s people came to power who had never been

14     in power before and who, for 45 years, had been considered as the

15     opposition and people who are not able to participate in government?

16        A.   As far as I know, there was a one-party system, and people came

17     to power who had never participated in government before or held any kind

18     of position of power, who had not been members of the Socialist Party,

19     and that was the only party for 50 years in the former Yugoslavia.  And

20     these were the first democratic multi-party elections in Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina.  They were held in 1990.

22        Q.   Thank you.  On the basis of your experience from the

23     administration, were these two factors -- or three factors: namely,

24     people in government without experience and knowledge; the war; and the

25     breakdown in communications?  Did that make chaos apparent, chaos that

Page 5195

 1     could not be controlled in any way?

 2        A.   Could you please explain what you mean?  Until the beginning of

 3     the war, or after the war started, the first months of the war?

 4        Q.   The first year of the war.

 5        A.   Well, in my opinion, no one thought that there would be a war.

 6     Once the war started, there were conflicts everywhere, in every part of

 7     the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So at one point in time, there were

 8     armed conflicts throughout, from Una and Sava to Neretva, Trebisnjica,

 9     and all the way up there to Mrkonic Grad and Bihac.  There was general

10     chaos and commotion.  All roads and communications were interrupted, and

11     I think that both the people and the government lost their heads at that

12     point.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have AD-21 now in Serbian

14     and in English.  One more paragraph, please.  AD-21.  In the Serbian

15     version, it's page 8 -- or 9, rather, in e-court.  In English -- yes, we

16     have it in English too.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   AD-21, can you tell us what this is all about?

19        A.   "The government reviewed the current political and security

20     situation in Foca and Bratunac.  It was assessed that the situation in

21     these municipalities was extremely complicated, and it was stated that

22     necessary steps should be taken in order to prevent conflict and protect

23     the population."

24        Q.   The second paragraph?

25        A.   "In that connection, the government believes that the possibility

Page 5196

 1     of imposing martial law should be looked at, in other municipalities as

 2     well, in order to bring order and avoid conflicts that could have broader

 3     negative consequences."

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that Serbs and Muslims lived there at

 5     this point in time, that they are in direct contact, that conflicts may

 6     even escalate?

 7        A.   From what I know, both Foca and Bratunac were multi-ethnic towns,

 8     with equal shares of Serb and non-Serb population.

 9        Q.   And at this time, end July 1992, both communities were living

10     there together, they had already been fighting in conflicts, and the

11     government had already taken some steps to prevent further conflict?

12        A.   Can you rephrase, please?

13        Q.   To be more precise, is this the first time that the possibility

14     of imposing martial law is being mentioned at a government session in

15     order to prevent conflict, or is it for some other reason?

16        A.   The proposal before the government is to impose martial law to

17     prevent conflict.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can this document be admitted?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Was it not already admitted?  Yes, we'll admit it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D452, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 193, please.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   This is the minutes of the 45th session.  The one before was the

25     43rd session?

Page 5197

 1        A.   Yes.  That was the 7th of August.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see AD-8 in both languages.

 3             [In English] Reference 8.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I see in 3 that it deals with the operation of the power supply

 6     system.  The transmission network is damaged.  On page 3, it says the

 7     electrical company is tasked to let the other side know that the Serbian

 8     side would also use the power supply system for purposes of war, as they

 9     had been doing, if they continued to damage installations.

10             Now, AD-8, can you tell us what the conclusion is in AD-8?

11        A.   "The government considered the problems in the republic regarding

12     the enactment of administrative regulations by various municipal and

13     republic organs, which are not in conformity with the law.

14             "In this regard, the government has decided that all ministries

15     inspect all the enactments that had been passed during the war in order

16     to remove any irregularities within an agreed time-frame ..."

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see number 11.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Could you give us an explanation for that?

20        A.   "The government decided that Vice-Prime Minister Milan Trbojevic

21     and Minister of Justice Momcilo Mandic should assist in providing

22     qualified staff for military judiciary organs."

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this document be

24     admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 5198

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D453, Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             1D227, please.  It's 65 ter 17664.  The 65 ter has a translation.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Minister, we mentioned that the central authorities were not able

 6     to replace presidents of municipalities, but they did try to address the

 7     mistakes the latter had made mainly out of ignorance, and they sometimes

 8     abolished their decisions.

 9             We don't have the right document.  It's 65 ter 17664.

10             Do you remember that in the early days, there was a good

11     president of municipality in Bijeljina, one Mr. Jokovic, and his error

12     lay in his inclination towards paramilitary units, and I had to go to

13     Bijeljina to ask him to resign, and Mladic demoted Mauzer, turning him

14     into a simple private soldier, whereas he had been a major before?

15             Now we need, actually, 1D227.  This is not the right document.

16             Do you remember that this was the first time a president of

17     municipality was successfully persuaded to resign, and Mladic demoted

18     Mauzer to a private?

19        A.   I don't remember these activities of yours, and I don't remember

20     what Mladic had done, but I know that this president of municipality,

21     Jokovic, had turned over military barracks to paramilitaries, and that

22     was the problem in Bijeljina.

23        Q.   Right, and that's the reason why we forced him to resign, and

24     Mauzer was turned into a simple soldier.

25             Now, tell us about this telegram from the Presidency of the

Page 5199

 1     Serbian Republic BH?  In fact, it was already Republika Srpska, but we

 2     didn't have the stamps yet.

 3        A.   Based on your constitutional authority, you reversed the decision

 4     of the municipality of Bijeljina, dealing with military issues.

 5        Q.   Point 2?

 6        A.   You ordered the civilian authorities to investigate the personal

 7     responsibility of the officials for passing illegal decisions during the

 8     war.

 9        Q.   And to report back; right?

10        A.   Yes, to report on what they had done.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I tender this document?

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Do you remember it was the constant complaint of the army that

14     civilian authorities were interfering with command and control, and do

15     you agree that it was a vestige of the former system of national defence

16     and social self-protection, wherein the president of municipality was

17     also commander of the Territorial Defence?

18        A.   I don't know what these were vestiges of, but I know that

19     according to the Law on Territorial Defence under the Communist system,

20     the president of the municipality was commander of the

21     Territorial Defence.  And these problems that the army had with municipal

22     authorities are something I know nothing about.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get 65 ter 4214.

24             Can this document be admitted, the previous one, the telegram?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 5200

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D454, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  One matter, Mr. Mandic.

 3             Do you, by any chance, know whether Territorial Defence still

 4     existed after the establishment of the VRS?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my knowledge, as of

 6     the 12 May 1992, the Territorial Defence did not exist, because the army

 7     was established then, and Ratko Mladic was named commander of the VRS.

 8     That was at the session of the Assembly in Banja Luka.  From that time

 9     on, there was only the regular Army of Republika Srpska, from what I

10     know.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now we need 65 ter 4214.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   While we're waiting, let me ask you:  Do you remember that these

15     municipal territorial units were only placed on the 19th or 20th May

16     under the command of the army, but they continued to be called by their

17     municipal names and they continued to rely logistically on

18     municipalities?

19        A.   From what I know about the Law of the Army, they had to be made

20     part of the regular army.  But who financed them and whether it was the

21     municipal authorities, I don't know, because the central authorities did

22     not have the budget.  So it must have stayed within the budget of the

23     municipalities, as far as finance and supplies were concerned, but they

24     had to be -- become part of the regular Army of Republika Srpska,

25     according to the Law on the Army.

Page 5201

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D212 for a moment, and

 2     then we'll come back to this list.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Do you remember our explanation why logistics should not be

 5     centralised?  The reason was that municipalities would be more inclined

 6     to provide for their own children than to some unit they didn't know?

 7        A.   Well, first of all, the government did not have the budget to

 8     finance that, and the municipalities that were under Serbian control,

 9     which were under Serbian control even before the war, had their own funds

10     and budgets to feed the army, and, finally, also the police and the

11     municipal administration.  I believe that was the main reason why

12     financing was left up to the municipalities, because up at Pale, we had

13     nothing until the government was properly set up, until cash-flow started

14     to run, until the establishment of everything that makes a state.

15        Q.   Look at this letter from Major Stankovic from the unit in Doboj.

16     Read the title and the first sentence, please.

17        A.   The date is 27 July 1992, and the heading is "Report on the

18     Attitude and Conduct of Individual Political Structures and Mandarins of

19     Individual Socio-Political Communities Regarding the Establishment of

20     Military Police Battalions":

21             "In keeping with the order of the superior command, we have taken

22     steps to establish and organise a united military police in the entire

23     territory of Operations Group Doboj."

24        Q.   Thank you.  We'll have this translated.  Could you read the

25     paragraph that begins with "Objective"?

Page 5202

 1        A.   "The objective of this organisation, in the spirit of your order,

 2     is to do away with all local and private military police units which are

 3     not accountable to anyone."

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D455, Your Honours.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   A witness here said that it took two years to establish.  Do you

 9     agree that the army could not be set up and become operational on the

10     19th of May suddenly; it took time to place everything under a single

11     command?  Does this document testify to that?

12        A.   The formal conditions for establishing the army were created by

13     19th of May.  However, after that time it took a while to pass the bylaws

14     and implement these regulations on the ground.  Now, how much time and

15     how it was done concerning the army, I don't know.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now come back to 65 ter

17     4214, the one we had before.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   This is the cover page for the verbatim record of the 20th

20     session of the Assembly of Republika Srpska held in Bijeljina on 14 and

21     15 September; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get page 9 in the text;

24     English page 10.  Page 9 in Serbian.  I think it's page 9 in the

25     document.  Page number 9, the pagination of the document itself.

Page 5203

 1             The only thing here is that the prime minister and several

 2     ministers attended consultations, and at each of these consultations the

 3     demand -- sorry, the complaint was made that the authorities, the

 4     government, are not functioning properly.

 5             We need pages 15 and 16 in English, and page 15 in Serbian.  In

 6     English, it must be towards the bottom.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Could you please find the passage where it says:

 9             "We should be happy there were no executions by firing squad."

10             In English, it reads:

11             "I must say that very often some municipal officials ..."

12        A.   I've found it in Serbian.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English, we should look towards

14     the bottom of the page, and maybe it straddles page 16.

15             JUDGE KWON:  It's in the upper part.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

17             JUDGE KWON:  "I must say at the level of lower-ranking

18     officials, clerks on the border."

19             Do you mean that part:

20             "There are many unpleasant surprises"?

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Could you read the passage where it says:  "I have to say ..."?

23        A.   Do you mean:

24             "In fact, we have to be happy that there have been no executions

25     so far"?

Page 5204

 1        Q.   Two sentences before that.

 2        A.   "I have to say that very often some municipal officials have

 3     acted unlawfully, in ways that even deserved arrest and punishment."

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this the right page in English,

 5     or maybe we need page 15.  Your Honours, have you found it?

 6             [In English] "I must say ..."

 7             [Interpretation] It's halfway down the page, and we need the same

 8     page in Serbian back.

 9             [In English] "I must say it often happened that some municipal

10     officials ..."

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you go on, Minister?

13        A.   " ... acted unlawfully, in ways that deserved arrest and

14     punishment.  This is something we have to emphasise at this Assembly

15     session and perhaps even sanction, and find a way for the Presidency to

16     take a stand in such cases between two sessions of the Assembly.  Namely,

17     we should consider ourselves lucky that there have been no executions so

18     far.  But in future, there will be arrests and punishment.  This Assembly

19     is the legislative body whose duty it is to protect the law; will have to

20     take note of this and give us authorisation.  Even if we do not declare a

21     state of war, we will have to straighten things out in certain

22     municipalities of vital importance to use vigorous measures."

23        Q.   This was on the 14th and 15th September.  The president of the

24     Presidency is asking that the Presidency be given powers to take vigorous

25     action vis-a-vis local authorities?

Page 5205

 1        A.   When you say there have been no executions, you mean to say that

 2     you didn't punish local Serbs.  And you refer to the state of war, and

 3     you say that even without declaring a state of war, you need these powers

 4     in order to punish perpetrators of serious crimes in the territory of

 5     Republika Srpska.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see page 18 in Serbian,

 7     and English also 18, top of the page.  "How to ensure ...," the very

 8     beginning.  It's the very beginning in English, and over here it says --

 9     actually, we'll have to find this for you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I would like to ask you to have a look at line 4, Minister.  Just

12     have a look at that, and then we'll move further down.

13        A.   Page 18?

14        Q.   Page 18, line 4:

15             "I would like to ask General Mladic to present our military

16     situation," et cetera."

17             And then I said --

18        A.   "I would like to ask you not to repeat anything in this

19     discussion.  Let's move on directly to this objective, how to ensure the

20     functioning of the authorities, how to make sure that profiteers and

21     hoodlums do not undermine the authority of the authorities.  Believe me,

22     we found chaos in places where there were no authorities."

23        Q.   Further down:  "Authority ...," et cetera.

24        A.   "The authority of the authorities has hit rock bottom, but that

25     happens all the time."

Page 5206

 1        Q.   But we have some reports.  Can you find that part:

 2             "Such strategically important places, like the Drina, the

 3     authorities of the central government, these guys in Bratunac ..."

 4             Have you found that?  It's somewhere around the middle:  "We have

 5     reports ..."

 6        A.   Yes, yes:

 7             "These guys in Bratunac are very honest but they have no

 8     authority, they are not in power.  When you translate 'authority,' it

 9     means the authorities or government.  The authorities must have

10     authority, and there can be no compromise.  We must put our foot down and

11     tell them to fuck off, use the police, and if you can't use your own

12     police, call us and we'll send a special unit which will make arrests and

13     restore order."

14        Q.   Further on?

15        A.   "There is not a single municipal president who is able to do this

16     unless he respects himself and unless we all contribute to him being

17     respected."

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that Brano Grujic testified in

19     Belgrade about that in the proceedings that were held against him, that

20     once they came to see me and they told me what the situation was

21     concerning the Yellow Wasps, and then I asked Stanisic and Karisik

22     [as interpreted] to send a special unit to arrest them because the local

23     forces could not arrest them, as stated here in this paragraph?  Was that

24     the model that we applied?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5207

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now have

 2     page 49 in Serbian and page 47 in English.  49 in Serbian, 47 in English.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Not to be narcissistic, this is Mirko Mijatovic talking, not me.

 5     Do you know who Mirko Mijatovic is?

 6        A.   I think he's an MP from Serbia.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you look at this portion, where he says -- yes,

 8     it's the second paragraph.  In English, it's also the second paragraph.

 9        A.   "I would just like to say something very briefly about the

10     functioning of the civilian authorities, where I think the problem lies

11     in many municipalities.  The government has, indeed, passed regulations,

12     but we do not have developed mechanisms to implement them.  I think that

13     something constructive has to be done in order for that to happen.  I

14     have heard criticism of the commissioners.  I am a commissioner of the

15     Presidency for a large number of municipalities, and I don't know whether

16     I have been of any use or not.  But I can tell you of the following

17     experience: that not a single representative of the government ever

18     visited those areas.  I'm not criticising anyone.  I personally trust the

19     president and many members of the government, but this contact has to be

20     established with government representatives, at least between people

21     working in the government and those who are on the ground."

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we now have Serbian page 56 and English page 53.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Again, it's my own words.  I can only be myself.  Line 10 from

Page 5208

 1     the bottom in English.  In Serbian, let's see:

 2             "Tonight we have to clarify certain matters here."

 3        A.   Tell me roughly where it is.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   In English, it says:  "We are responsible ..."

 6             Now we're going to find it --

 7        A.   "If necessary," you mean?

 8        Q.   "Tonight, we have to be given that kind of authority ..."  Yes,

 9     two or three lines.  In English, it's line 10 from the bottom.

10        A.   "We have to clear this thing up tonight.  We must be given -- we

11     must be given the authority to be able to replace and arrest, begging

12     your pardon, a stupid municipal president.  We are still faced with

13     self-management, but still have the problem of self-management.  This

14     person cannot do this, the other person cannot do that.  Self-management

15     was designed to prove to you that something cannot be done and to prevent

16     you from doing anything."

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do I not ask, later on during this session, that the

18     Presidency be assisted by being given greater authority in order to make

19     arrests, and the legislation that is in place is a remnant of

20     self-management?

21        A.   When the President of this honourable Trial Chamber asked me

22     about this, I explained how a municipality president can be dismissed and

23     that it did not depend upon the wishes of the government and the

24     Presidency.  It is the local parliamentarians, local MPs, who appoint

25     such a person.  He is responsible to them, and that's it.

Page 5209

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Serbian page 73; English, 69.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   It is mid-September, and there is this fight going on in the

 4     Assembly for establishing effective government; right?

 5        A.   I think that things culminated at that point in time, that is to

 6     say, the struggle between the local and the central authorities, and that

 7     this led to major problems.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have a look at this.  Jovo Mijatovic is

 9     speaking, and he says:  "We ...," et cetera.  Can you find that?  I'll

10     look it up in English, and you can look it up in Serbian.  Zvornik is

11     being referred to, and that will be the easiest way of finding the

12     section that I've looking for:

13             "At one point in time in the municipality of Zvornik ..."

14             In English, can you find the word "Zvornik"?

15        A.   "At one point, and I said this in Zvornik municipality several

16     times, we were at a point where we practically had a municipal army,

17     municipal police, and municipal administration, a state within a state."

18        Q.   Next sentence too, please.

19        A.   "I hear that this is also the case at regional level in

20     Eastern Herzegovina, that there are instances of regional organisation at

21     all levels."

22        Q.   Thank you.  This assessment, made by Mr. Mijatovic, this is

23     Jovo Mijatovic from Zvornik, does that correspond to what you knew at the

24     time?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5210

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Serbian page 73; English, 69.  Well, the English one can just

 3     stay there, because we are actually dealing with Professor Koljevic's

 4     remarks.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   When you testified in the Stanisic case, did you confirm that you

 7     did not know this man who was speaking, but that he was saying the same

 8     things that you knew about?  Did you know this Mijatovic person?

 9        A.   No, I did not.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  "Professor Koljevic,"

11     can we find this in Serbian, line four or five of his remarks.  In

12     English, it says:  "On behalf ..."

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I'm surprised that you don't know Mr. Mijatovic, because the

15     Prosecution mentions him and says that you and I were involved in this

16     joint criminal enterprise together with him.  But let's leave that aside

17     now.

18             Minister:  "Yesterday we did ...," or did not -- no, no, just a

19     moment:  "Yesterday, we ..."

20        A.   "Yesterday, we had a difficult day.  We had to face our biggest

21     mistakes and weaknesses, the truth of what things were like on the ground

22     rather than what we would like them to be, and on television and at this

23     Assembly, we have to present things.  We are at the initial stage of

24     these discussions.  I would like to appeal to your honesty and openness."

25        Q.   "Political"?

Page 5211

 1        A.   "Political," yes:

 2             "... the most political matter at this time, the centralisation

 3     of government and command for general well-being."

 4        Q.   How about this sentence:  "Because ..."?

 5        A.   "Because local strongmen are a major problem for us.  That is the

 6     main problem why the authorities are not functioning properly, why

 7     government is not functioning properly."

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Is that in line with what you knew?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can we have Serbian page 88 and English page 93.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Now, these are your own words, page 93 and 88.  You were still

14     minister in mid-September; right?

15        A.   Yes.  I have "Professor Zukovic" on my screen.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's 88 in the text, itself, and

17     it's 91 in English.  Serbian, 88; 91 in English.  It says

18     "Momcilo Mandic."  That's what's written there.

19             Can we have -- this is some kind of new numbering of pages.  Can

20     we have English 91 and then 88, "Mandic."  It should be Mandic's remarks.

21     No, it's not this one either, no.  Can we find Mandic's remarks, please?

22             JUDGE KWON:  From what I hear from the Court Deputy, it's time to

23     take a break.  And after the break, we'll see Mr. Mandic's statement at

24     the time.

25             We'll resume at 11.00.

Page 5212

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Before we begin:  Mr. Karadzic, you stated, during

 4     your question to Mr. Mandic, that Mr. Mandic was listed as one of the

 5     participants in the joint criminal enterprise.  Over the break, I tried

 6     to read through the indictment, as well as the pre-trial brief, but I

 7     couldn't find Mr. Mandic's name.  Could you clarify that statement?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  In some --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  That's not important.  We can come back later on.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but in any case, Mr. Mandic's

11     name was probably dropped from the indictment when he was acquitted in

12     Bosnia.  But it does involve a huge number of people, paragraph 11 of the

13     indictment.

14             JUDGE KWON:  But I would like you to be more cautious when

15     referring to specific names as members of the joint criminal enterprise.

16             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

18             At paragraph 11 of the indictment, it says that:

19             "Radovan Karadzic acted in concert with other members of this

20     criminal enterprise, including ..."

21             And then the name of Momcilo Mandic is there.

22             JUDGE KWON:  My apologies.  Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that here or somewhere

24     else, Zuca is also mentioned, and we arrested Zuca at the request of the

25     municipal authorities, and a special unit was sent for that purpose from

Page 5213

 1     Pale.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted into

 4     evidence, as well as the session of the 14th and 15th of September.  I

 5     will desist from this part.  But if this entire session has not been

 6     admitted, I believe that all the documents will be admitted.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D456, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             May we now have 65 ter 201.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Minister, we are still in September, and this is a session of

13     the government.  It doesn't say who attended it, but I'm sure you'll be

14     familiar with item 1, AD-1.

15             Can you describe to us what was discussed at this session?

16        A.   This is a session of the Government of Republika Srpska of the

17     21st of September, 1992, where current issues of state and national

18     interest were discussed, starting from the current situation and

19     relations in the republic and further afield.  Activities and measures to

20     be undertaken were pointed out.  Special attention was paid to

21     consideration of the issue of the organisation and functioning of the

22     state organs in the republic, the state of the economy and its revival,

23     as well as organising the banking system in the republic and making it

24     functional.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have the next page, please,

Page 5214

 1     in Serbian.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   And look at item 1, please.

 4        A.   Item 1?

 5        Q.   You can read this to the end.

 6        A.   "Within this framework, special attention was paid to the

 7     situation and the measures and activities to be undertaken in the Bosnian

 8     Krajina.

 9             "After an extensive and comprehensive discussion, the government

10     adopted the following conclusions:

11             "1.  The government shall energetically exercise its

12     constitutional and legal functions, using all means of a law-governed

13     state, in organising and exercising power in the republic.  The

14     government shall, where it is deemed necessary, propose to the Serb

15     Republic Presidency the introduction of martial administration in certain

16     areas of the republic, including companies, organisations, and

17     institutions."

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May we now look at

19     conclusion 12 in both versions.  In the Serbian version, it's on the next

20     page, and in English, it's also on the next page.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Can you tell us about conclusion 12?

23        A.   "It was concluded that the Ministry of the Interior and the

24     Ministry of Defence, in co-operation with the Main Staff of the Army of

25     Republika Srpska, shall prepare and adopt regulations and unify their

Page 5215

 1     implementation in order to protect the property of persons outside the

 2     Republika Srpska."

 3        Q.   And 13.  It refers to your ministry.

 4        A.   I'm waiting for the page.

 5        Q.   The next page in Serbian, please.  Only 13.

 6        A.   13:

 7             "The Ministry of Justice and Administration is tasked with

 8     immediately preparing regulations on political organisation in the

 9     republic."

10        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Minister, that at the proposal of the prime

11     minister, I suspended the work of the Serbian Democratic Party?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you remember that other parties took advantage of this and

14     began to organise themselves and became active in the areas left or

15     abandoned by the Serbian Democratic Party?

16        A.   I'm not aware of that.

17        Q.   Does point 13 refer to the fact that the Ministry of Justice

18     should organise political life, that is, how parties can organise

19     themselves and be registered?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted into

22     evidence?

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Minister, let me ask you the following:  If the purpose of

25     government in Republika Srpska was to commit crimes, to expel Muslims and

Page 5216

 1     Croats, if that were the case, would not the government be happy that

 2     there was chaos on the ground, instead of trying to establish order?

 3        A.   I repeat that the government did not insist on chaos and

 4     lawlessness, but, on the contrary, when the Serbian state was

 5     established, there was already chaos on the ground, and the government

 6     was trying to deal with this situation and introduce the rule of law.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             May this document be admitted into evidence?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D457, Your Honours.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have in e-court 1D234.

12     1D234.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   And while we are waiting for it:  In the previous document of the

15     21st of September, the government was considering the possibility of

16     proposing to the president of the republic, that is, the Presidency, the

17     introduction of martial law?

18        A.   Yes, or martial administration.

19        Q.   Yes, in some places.  Well, here, the minister of defence, at

20     that time Colonel Subotic, was sending to the president of the republic

21     something.  So can you please tell us about this document?  And here it

22     says:

23             "... and because of the serious threats, the whole system, and

24     because of the danger of disintegration of the system, I propose ..."

25             Can you tell us what it goes on to say, if you can see it?

Page 5217

 1        A.   No, I can't see it to read this.  It's all faded, it's very pale.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May the original be given to the

 3     witness.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   And can you read points 1 and 3, since these are the ones that

 6     have been translated?

 7        A.   The Ministry of Defence is addressing the president of

 8     Republika Srpska:

 9             "The introduction of martial law on parts of the territory of

10     Republika Srpska":

11             "1.  Having in mind that in some parts of Republika Srpska, the

12     political and security situation has escalated because of the activities

13     of paramilitary units and para-state organs and institutions, and that

14     the legal state organs and other authorities are not carrying out their

15     work in line with the Constitution and legislation, and with a view to

16     defence, and because of noncompliance with the decisions of the

17     government and other organs, I propose the introduction of martial law in

18     the following municipalities:  Bijeljina, Centar Sarajevo, Ilidza,

19     Ilijas, Hadzici, Novo Sarajevo, Stari Grad Sarajevo, Sokolac, Pale,

20     Rajlovac, Vogosca and Zvornik.

21             "3.  Military administration," or, rather, "martial law in the

22     municipalities from item 1 will be imposed until the reasons for the

23     introduction of martial law are removed.

24             "Minister Colonel Bogdan Subotic."

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5218

 1             May this document be admitted?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we mark it for identification, Mr. Tieger,

 3     pending the full translation of it?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour, that's fine.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll do so.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be MFI D458.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   Minister, this was on the 20th of October, was it not?

 9        A.   The 20th of October, 1992.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can we now have 1D232.  I believe that we do not have a

12     translation, but we will present the document with a few paragraphs.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   This was on the 10th of October.  Before the minister of defence

15     proposed this to me, the minister prepared mandatory instructions on the

16     tasks of the organs of military administration, republic state organs and

17     other subjects.  Have I read this out correctly?

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The date is the 10th of October,

20     and this was compiled at Pale.

21             May we have page 10.  The next number 2.  This is the last page.

22     I would like to see page 2 of the document.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger, we have translations; not in

24     e-court, but in hard copies.  Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5219

 1             May we have page 2 in Serbian.  Page 1 in English.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Minister -- could you put page 1 on the ELMO and then page 2 so

 4     that everyone can see what this document is.  Thank you.  Yes, we have

 5     it.

 6             Can you tell us about the part that's been marked in red?

 7        A.   On page 1?

 8        Q.   On the page you see now.

 9        A.   Very well:

10             "1.  The organs of military administration, in co-operation with

11     the republican state organs, shall carry out administrative,

12     professional, and other jobs according to the Constitution, laws and

13     regulations based on the law.  Legislative, administrative and other

14     organs of administration are to be transferred fully to the military

15     administration."

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have the next

17     page, please; in English as well, probably.  [No interpretation]

18             [In English] The lower part.  Point 1 -- 1.2.  1.1 is "Defence,"

19     and 1.2, it seems to me that it is not translated.

20             [Interpretation] That page is missing.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Can you tell us what they are doing in the Ministry of the

23     Interior.  Just tell us, briefly, what happens in case of military

24     administration with internal affairs.

25        A.   They take over the entire -- all the competencies of the police,

Page 5220

 1     from investigating the most serious crimes to traffic control.  They take

 2     over police affairs in full.

 3        Q.   And the last line:  "Repressive measures ..."

 4        A.   "Taking repressive measures against groups and individuals who

 5     make it impossible to carry out law enforcement or disrupt the political,

 6     economic, and legal system.  And, as required, imposing curfew and

 7     restricting movement."

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.  In English,

 9     it's 3.  1.3:  "The judiciary and administration."

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Ensuring completely functional --"

11             THE ACCUSED:  It is wrongly translated.  1.3 looks like "Sphere

12     of Defence and Administration," but it should be "The Sphere of Judiciary

13     and State Administration."

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you now tell us what happens in this area, your field of

16     work, under military administration?

17        A.   Our competencies, not only in terms of military judiciary, but

18     also civilian judiciary, are transferred.

19        Q.   And the point is to maximise efficiency?

20        A.   All administrative functions of the state are taken over by the

21     military administration.

22        Q.   And number 3?

23        A.   "Priority dealing with reports for misdemeanor and criminal

24     proceedings by the military administration and republic state agencies

25     through summary procedures ..."

Page 5221

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter cannot see where the witness is

 2     reading from.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you repeat the last item?

 5        A.   "Gradually enabling and putting into operation regular organs of

 6     state administration, executive and parliamentary bodies, in co-operation

 7     with the competent republic organs."

 8        Q.   Let's move on to 1.9.  [In English] 1.9.

 9             [Interpretation] This deals with town planning, housing, and

10     utilities, construction, surveyor and property-related legal affairs.

11     Read the highlighted part, please.

12        A.   "Eviction from illegally-squatted apartments and residential

13     buildings, recording damage inflicted on housing and other buildings,"

14     et cetera.

15        Q.   How about property rights?

16        A.   "Ensuring property rights, in keeping with the current

17     legislation ..."

18        Q.   And the rest of that sentence?

19        A.   I can't see it on the screen.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the Serbian be scrolled down.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Ensuring property rights, in

22     keeping with the current legislation, and temporary ban on sale of real

23     estate."

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   To whom does this eviction provision apply?

Page 5222

 1        A.   Probably the Serbs, who moved unlawfully into vacant, abandoned

 2     houses and apartments.

 3        Q.   And this last provision:  "Ensuring property rights ..."

 4        A.   That applies to non-Serbs in the territory of Republika Srpska.

 5        Q.   Their property rights should be enforced and guaranteed; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do you remember that the government had already imposed a ban on

 8     sales of real estate during the war so that no one should profit from

 9     these circumstances in buying property from Croats and Muslims?

10        A.   I remember that decree, with the force of law, was passed banning

11     exchanges and sales of real estate until the war ends.

12        Q.   But under those circumstances, the Serbs had lost -- the Serbs in

13     Croatia had lost both the property they owned in Croatia and property

14     that they acquired in exchanges in Republika Srpska?

15        A.   I know about such cases in Banja Luka.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1.14, please,

17     "Refugees and humanitarian aid."

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Refugees and humanitarian aid":

19             "Updating records and dealing with the status-related issues of

20     refugees; providing for refugees in a more lasting way; establishing

21     checks and controls to prevent any abuses of aid to refugees and

22     humanitarian aid."

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Next page?

25        A.   "Providing proper conditions for the return of refugees currently

Page 5223

 1     in other areas in the republic or outside the republic."

 2        Q.   And ...?

 3        A.   "Full co-operation with agencies in charge of refugees."

 4        Q.   And this was signed ...?

 5        A.   By Bogdan Subotic, the minister.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, do you like it to be marked for

 8     identification, given that some pages are missing in the translation?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour, I think that's the appropriate

10     approach under these circumstances.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We'll do so.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be MFI D459.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Can we now get 1D233, to cast a brief glance at this document

15     about the tasks of military administration; the same date, the same

16     ministry.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can you read the first page so the parties can be informed?  And

19     the Prosecution probably has a translation as well.

20        A.   The Ministry of Defence passed this document.  It's the Rules of

21     Organisation and Mission of Military Administration.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the page -- the bottom

23     of the page to see the date.  I believe it's the same date as the last

24     document.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 10 October 1992.

Page 5224

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 2, please.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Could you interpret for us paragraph 2?  So these are the rules

 4     binding the parties to take certain action?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And Roman numeral I are general provisions?

 7        A.   In Article 2, the defence minister defines military

 8     administration, and he says that it implies taking over entire authority

 9     and powers.

10        Q.   It says:

11             "... under the circumstances involving massive armed activities,

12     unlawful conduct, and for other objective reasons where the

13     constitutional and legal order has been disrupted"?

14        A.   Yes, it's the definition of military administration.

15             THE ACCUSED:  I would like you to give us next number 4.

16             [Interpretation] Can we have Serbian page 2.  Article 4, please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Next page in B/C/S.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Article 4?

20        A.   "The Supreme Command, as the highest body in the system of

21     military administration in the republic, shall establish military

22     administrations in municipalities and other communities.

23             "Military administration commanders shall be appointed by the

24     defence minister.

25             "Unified military administration may be established for areas

Page 5225

 1     including two or more municipalities."

 2        Q.   Article 10, please.

 3        A.   Article 15?

 4        Q.   10.

 5        A.   Article 10:

 6             "The bodies of military administration, in co-operation with

 7     republican state bodies, commands, and army units, and other entities,

 8     are duty-bound to remove and eliminate all the causes and reasons for

 9     which military administration was imposed, within the time-limits

10     established in the relevant document."

11        Q.   Now Article 15?

12        A.   "In carrying out the duties and tasks in their area of work, the

13     bodies of military administration shall have jurisdiction to use the

14     police and may also require the engagement of army units when that is in

15     the interests of defence," et cetera.

16        Q.   Article 16, "Final Provisions"?

17        A.   Yes:

18             "These rules shall enter into force on the date of promulgation

19     and shall not be published in the Official Gazette of Republika Srpska,

20     but will instead be made available to the users, together with the

21     decision to impose military administration.

22             "Defence Minister Bogdan Subotic."

23             THE ACCUSED:  Scroll down to see this.  Thank you.

24             [Interpretation] May this document be admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 5226

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D460, Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             1D1984, please.  Not translation, I'm afraid.  Perhaps the OTP

 4     has a translation.  In any case, it's very short.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   So read it in full.

 7        A.   "Pursuant to Article 7, paragraph 5, of the Law on Defence, and

 8     in view of the fact that it's impossible to establish civilian

 9     authorities, the president of the Presidency of Republika Srpska hereby

10     adopts the decision to impose military administration."

11             Article 1:

12             "Military administration is hereby imposed on the territory of

13     the Serbian municipality of Bosanski Brod."

14             Article 2:

15             "The military administration shall carry on in its tasks and

16     duties pursuant to the law and other regulations of Republika Srpska,

17     following the organisation and issuing of tasks prescribed by the defence

18     minister."

19             Article 3:

20             "This decision shall enter into force on the date of adoption and

21     shall apply pending the establishment of civilian municipal authorities,

22     but not longer than four months."

23             Signed:  "President Radovan Karadzic."

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This is one example of

25     such a decision that we laid our hands on.  It concerns the municipality

Page 5227

 1     of Brod, Bosanski Brod, and it's the same date as the previous document.

 2     On the same day when the minister proposed it, I imposed military

 3     administration.

 4             May this document be admitted, please?

 5             Could the transcript please reflect that the witness confirmed

 6     what I had said in my question.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, did you confirm what Mr. Karadzic said

 8     earlier on?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, on the same day this

10     order was made, the same day when the minister of defence made that

11     decision.  Yes, Your Honour.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted for

13     identification?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D461, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D19895, please.  Could we have

17     that in e-court, 1D1895.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Could you please interpret this for us?  You don't have to read

20     it out.

21             It's not that -- 1D1985.  It's not that document.  Could this be

22     placed on the ELMO.  Oh, no, right, this is the document I wanted.

23             Minister, can you tell us briefly what this is?  This is

24     obviously one of a series of documents from the minister of defence.  Can

25     you tell us what this is about?

Page 5228

 1        A.   In that previous document, it says that the minister of defence

 2     appoints the head of the military administration, and this is an example

 3     of such an appointment.  The minister appointed Lieutenant-Colonel

 4     Dragutin Mikac for the municipality of Brod, that is.

 5        Q.   And what does paragraph 2 say?

 6        A.   "The head of the Military Administration of the Serb municipality

 7     of Brod is in charge of the Military Administration and is duty-bound to

 8     ensure the carrying out of tasks and duties established in the rules on

 9     the organisation and tasks of Military Administration," and so on.

10        Q.   Paragraph 3?

11        A.   Paragraph 3:

12             "Reports on the work and functioning of the Military

13     Administration.  The Serbian municipality of Brod shall be submitted by

14     the head of the Military Administration, to the minister of defence,

15     every 15 days, and, if necessary, more often that that."

16        Q.   Signed:  "Bogdan Subotic"?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can the document be

19     admitted for identification?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D462, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             1D1986, please.  It's all in this same series from the same

24     municipality.  1D1986.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

Page 5229

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, if I may suggest a time expedient, one

 2     which I've discussed with Mr. Robinson.  It may be more appropriate, and

 3     certainly more expeditious, for the Defence to Bar-table the remainder of

 4     these series of documents.  We now know the context.  They can indicate

 5     the particular relevance.  The Prosecution -- and the providence.  The

 6     Prosecution could respond.  The Court will have more information, and we

 7     will move through this process faster, and the accused will have more

 8     time to deal with Mr. Mandic on the subjects about which he can provide

 9     specific elaboration.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

11             I was wondering the point of putting these documents to the

12     witness, again, with which the Prosecution has no disagreement.

13             These kinds of documents may be the ones that will be put to the

14     witness to take a look at overnight.

15             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  And also then subject to later Bar table motion.

17             MR. TIEGER:  I would have asked to be heard on the suggestion of

18     presenting documents to the witness for -- to append his signature on the

19     basis of some -- well, on the basis of the suggestion the accused made

20     about some familiarity.  We wouldn't know anything about that.  I would

21     think, for the reasons mentioned earlier and for that reason, the Bar

22     table submission would be far more preferable.  The Court would have much

23     more information from both the Defence and any responsive information

24     from the Prosecution, plus the possibility of hearing any additional --

25     of having the opportunity to see any additional documents that the

Page 5230

 1     Prosecution, in this case, or the other side when the Prosecution makes

 2     Bar table submissions, may also consider relevant.  And then with that

 3     information, the Court can decide what's appropriate to admit.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Now I see your point, Mr. Tieger.

 5             Do you have any observations, Mr. Karadzic?  Mr. Robinson.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

 7             I think we would be amenable in trying to do as much as we can

 8     through a Bar table motion, although we saw that the Bar table motion of

 9     the Prosecution didn't go too far when it first started, and so we think

10     there's some risk, possibly.  But with the Prosecution's position, at

11     least -- we would be willing to take that risk and try to move to a Bar

12     table approach with some of these documents.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The witness testified, in general terms, about

14     the Military Administration, but there's no need to go through each and

15     every document with the witness, while he was asking for further time.

16             MR. TIEGER:  I was going to make a very similar point,

17     Your Honour, and I think you beat me to it, and that is:  Whatever risk

18     existed before, I think, has been overtaken by the fact that we now have

19     a great deal of contextualisation for the submission of these documents

20     as well as other issues which have been contextualised during the course

21     of this witness's examination.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's move on.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Then this would be the last one that I will be dealing with in

25     this way, because it belongs to this series, and we'll see about the

Page 5231

 1     rest.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Minister, is this the 6th of February, 1993?  The military

 4     administrator, Lieutenant-Colonel Dragutin Mikac, is reporting about the

 5     establishment of civilian authorities in the municipality of Brod, and he

 6     is informing the minister of defence about that; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you read the first paragraph, please?

 9        A.   "I hereby inform you that in the municipality of Brod, on the 5th

10     of February, 1993, civilian organs of municipal authority have been

11     constituted.  Through the election of Assembly bodies and organs, the

12     requirements have been met from Article 3 of the decision of the

13     president of the Presidency of Republika Srpska, number 01-1788/92 of

14     October 10, 1992, for abolishing military administration in the

15     municipality of Brod."

16        Q.   Can you go on?  Can you read the part further down?

17        A.   This was submitted to the authorised organ of the

18     27th Motorised Brigade.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can this document be admitted?

21             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D463, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that criminal reports

24     were not reflected in the transcript, "Criminal reports."

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5232

 1        Q.   Could you please read this out once again:  "Criminal

 2     reports ..."

 3        A.   "Criminal reports, with evidentiary material, have been taken out

 4     of the register and were sent to the authorised organ of the

 5     27th Motorised Brigade.

 6        Q.   Does that mean that the military administrator filed criminal

 7     reports with regard to all crimes, and charged that

 8     27th Motorised Brigade with dealing with this further?

 9        A.   Yes, probably from that motorised brigade or from another organ

10     of the military judiciary.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This has been admitted;

12     right?  Has it been admitted?

13             1D2079, could I have that, then, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Let us see what happened in your own ministry on the 21st of

16     October, 1992, with a view to establishing the rule of law.

17             1D2079.  Do we have that or shall I have a copy placed on the

18     ELMO?  Some ERN number is -- yes, that's it, right.

19             You don't have to read the preamble to us.  Could you just tell

20     us what kind of decision this was that you passed?

21        A.   It had to do with the appointment of the republican

22     administrative inspector, Ms. Milena [phoen] Vucic.

23        Q.   Could you explain to us what that means?  What does this

24     administrative inspector do?  What is his or her job?

25        A.   The job involves going to see local authorities and examine the

Page 5233

 1     legality of the activity of local government in Republika Srpska.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can it be MFI'd?

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Minister, why was this necessary?

 6        A.   Because regulations were being violated in the domain of local

 7     government.

 8        Q.   Couldn't have this been done in other ways?  This inspector

 9     actually had to move about?

10        A.   Yes.  Yes, an inspector has to see what bylaws say and other

11     documents adopted by municipal assemblies and other local organs, to see

12     the extent to which regulations are being violated, those that were

13     passed by the Assembly and that the government was supposed to work on.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can this be admitted?

16             JUDGE KWON:  This will be MFI D464.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Minister, it seems to me that in your testimony in the Stanisic

19     case, or at some assembly, you said that these local princes would

20     sometimes even establish local prisons that did not belong to the system

21     of the ministry, or, rather, the legal system; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.  Yes, that did happen, and we established that here as well,

23     that this happened when the war started in Bosnia-Herzegovina, or,

24     rather, in the territory of Republika Srpska.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5234

 1             Can we have 65 ter 135, please.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  If I may intervene once again, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             Mr. Mandic, I heard your evidence, before the war, after the war,

 4     or when the war started.  When did the war start?  What incident do you

 5     call as the start of the war?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Armed conflicts in Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina started on the 6th of April, 1992, when Bosnia-Herzegovina

 8     was recognised by the European Union.  According to all experts and in

 9     different cases, especially in General Galic's case, when seven experts

10     were heard, including Robert Dole [as interpreted], it was established

11     that the armed conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina started with the armed

12     conflict in the territory of the city of Sarajevo, on that date.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Would you agree, Minister, that incidents before the 6th of April

16     primarily had Serb victims?  The 3rd of March, Bosanski Brod, then the

17     25th and 26th of March, Bosanski Brod and Sijekovac and the Neretva River

18     Valley, Travnik and so on, then Serbs were moving out of Livno, all of

19     that happened before the 6th of April.  Do you agree that that was also a

20     war along with attacks from Croatia by the Croatian regular and irregular

21     army?

22        A.   These are considered to be inter-ethnic incidents and clashes

23     that do not have the characteristics of an armed conflict, that is to

24     say, a war, Mr. President.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5235

 1             Can we have 65 ter 135, please.

 2             May I inform all the participants that now we are moving on to

 3     the topic of prisons and prisoners of war.

 4             I'm afraid this is not the right document.  65 ter 135, please.

 5     It is not 1D135; it is 65 ter 135.

 6             This one will be very interesting, too, because it speaks about

 7     the links that the Muslim government had with various international Arab

 8     intermediaries or brokers.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is a session held on the 6th of August; can you confirm

11     that?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page; in

14     English as well, the next page, please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   So could you please have a look at this?

17        A.   The work of the commission was discussed, the work of the

18     Commission for Investigating War Crimes Committed against the Serbian

19     People in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the former

20     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21        Q.   Please go on.

22        A.   "Conclusion":

23             "The Commission for Investigating War Crimes commited against the

24     Serb people will start working, even if it is necessary to replace the

25     members of the Commission.  The treatment of --"

Page 5236

 1        Q.   "Prisoners of war"?

 2        A.   "... prisoners of war detained in prisons in Serb territory was

 3     discussed.  The prisoners should be divided into three categories: those

 4     captured on the front; those who took part in arming and operations of

 5     the Territorial Defence of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina; and those

 6     who assisted and financed Alija's army.  It was pointed out that we

 7     should abide by international conventions on the treatment of prisoners

 8     of war."

 9        Q.   Minister, do you agree that prisoners of war are only those who

10     participated in enemy combat activities in one of the three ways

11     described here and that there is no mention of civilians?

12        A.   I don't see any civilians being mentioned in this text, only

13     three kinds of prisoners of war; immediate participants, those financing,

14     and those assisting arming.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in

16     Serbian and keep the current page in English.  The next page in Serbian.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can you read us the whole page:  "To that end ...," and then the

19     conclusion?

20        A.   "To that end, the completely humane treatment of prisoners of war

21     is advised because they are in prisons and not in concentration camps.

22     In wartime, payments for their food, clothes, hygiene, guarding, and so

23     on are made at our expense.

24             "Conclusion:  The Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian

25     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina will be ordered to examine, through

Page 5237

 1     its municipal branches, the behaviour of all civilian authorities and

 2     individuals guarding prisoners of war.  The information will be passed to

 3     the MUP," that is, the police, "which will pass it on to the Presidency

 4     of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

 5             And the signatory is "Radovan Karadzic."

 6        Q.   Thank you.  This was on the 6th of August; is that right?  That

 7     was the date on the first page?

 8        A.   I didn't look.  I'm not sure.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 1 of both

10     versions, the English and Serbian, so that we can check the date.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the date is the 6th of August.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             May this document be admitted?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D465, Your Honour.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have D100 - I think it's

17     already been admitted - just to remind ourselves what I wrote to the

18     prime minister.  D100.  It's been admitted as D100.  I hope there is a

19     translation.  Yes, there is.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Can you tell us what this document is about?

22        A.   It's a letter sent from the Presidency to the government, to

23     Mr. Branko Djeric, and it says:

24             "Dear president, I am enclosing copies of the reports I have just

25     received regarding the state of prisoners in Manjaca and Bileca.  In

Page 5238

 1     relation to these reports, I have sent a letter to

 2     Mr. Cornelius Samaruga, the president of the ICRC, and General Ratko

 3     Mladic.

 4             "I expect that the government, through the ministries of law --

 5     through the ministries of justice and internal affairs, based on the

 6     reports, will take immediate measures for the improvement of the living

 7     conditions in the prisons that are operated by civilian authorities on

 8     our territory."

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This has already been

10     admitted.

11             May we have the next document, please.  We are now dealing with

12     the topic of prisoners of war and the institutions detaining them.

13             May we now have 65 ter 11512.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

15        Q.   Do you agree, Minister, that a large number of Muslims responded

16     to Alija Izetbegovic's call for general mobilisation issued on the 4th of

17     April, 1992, that a huge number responded?

18        A.   I know that on the 4th of April, Mr. Izetbegovic made a public

19     proclamation of general mobilisation, but I'm not informed as to how many

20     Muslims responded.

21        Q.   Thank you.  But do you accept the assessment of their generals

22     that 70 or 75 per cent of their soldiers fought wearing their civilian

23     clothes, at least in the first year?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:  I don't want to intervene much, but in this case

Page 5239

 1     I think the witness has indicated he doesn't know, and now he's being

 2     asked whether he has any reason -- whether he's accepting a proposition

 3     made by, presumably, officials with whom he's not familiar.  I'm not sure

 4     how that advances the process.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The second question seems to be related to a

 6     separate issue, as to the issue of wearing civilian clothes, so I let it

 7     go.

 8             Mr. Mandic, can you answer the question?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have already

10     answered this question.  I know that at the beginning of the war, the

11     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have uniforms that were all the same

12     and that a large number of people wore civilian clothes.  I've already

13     said that two or three days ago.  But as to what numbers or what

14     percentage of those were in civilian clothes, I really wouldn't know.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.  The

17     next page, please.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   On the 9th of August, was this signed on behalf of Mr. Djeric by

20     the deputy prime minister, Trbojevic, and can you tell us about this

21     decision?

22        A.   I think I explained this decision in the Stanisic case, where I

23     have fully accepted my testimony in that case, but I will repeat that.

24             At your request and pursuant to your letter of the 7th or 8th of

25     August, as we saw, a commission was set up to visit all the places for

Page 5240

 1     which it was learned -- it was found or suspected that there were persons

 2     being detained.  So when Avlijas, from the Ministry of Justice and

 3     Administration, and Goran Saric, from the Ministry of the Interior, as

 4     professionals, expert in those issues, were appointed to that commission,

 5     one of them went to the Krajina, the other one, Mr. Avlijas, went to

 6     Central Bosnia, and Goran Saric, the third member, went to Herzegovina,

 7     to visit all the places and all the municipalities for which there was

 8     reason to believe there were local prisons or places where non-Serbs were

 9     being held.  So the government responded immediately.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             May this document be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D466, Your Honour.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D1902.  1D1902.

15             While we are waiting for it to come up:  This is a document

16     issued by the Ministry of the Interior, dated the 10th of August.

17             I don't know whether we have a translation.  Yes, we do.  I will

18     ask that you be handed this decision.  I'm not sure this is the document.

19     1902, it's dated 1992.  It's something military from 1995, so 1D1902.

20             This is the document in Serbian, yes.  Now, do we have a

21     translation?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

24        Q.   So this is the next day.  The minister of the interior, pursuant

25     to the decision of the government, is issuing instructions to the centres

Page 5241

 1     in the places listed here.  Can you tell us what the minister is

 2     ordering?

 3        A.   The minister of the police is issuing an order that the detention

 4     and holding measures shall be applied exclusively within existing

 5     regulations, and he tells the chiefs that they shall be personally

 6     responsible for the lives of people who are being held and detained.  And

 7     he is calling for the prevention of any form of abuse in that area.  The

 8     premises were people are being held or detained must fulfill basic

 9     requirements of hygiene and health.

10             And in item 2:

11             "The security of collection centres shall be the direct

12     responsibility of the Serbian Army, and if they do not have enough men

13     for these duties, it shall therefore be necessary to engage members of

14     the reserve police for these tasks and to place them at the army's

15     disposition."

16             And it's signed by Mico Stanisic.  Those who do not comply with

17     this order shall be disciplined.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May this document be

19     admitted?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D467, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we have 1D219.

24             This is the 14th of August.  So four days later, the 14th of

25     August, the minister's order here is being made operational.

Page 5242

 1             I hope we have the translation.  Yes, we have it.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   So to avoid reading the whole document, can you tell us who is

 4     making this operational and how?

 5        A.   This order was sent to the chiefs of the regions, the one -- not

 6     this one, but the one by the minister, and now the chief of one of the

 7     regions is establishing commissions to visit the municipalities, tour the

 8     municipalities, and establish what the situation is in these

 9     municipalities as regards the detention of persons by the police and

10     holding them in custody.

11        Q.   I think that the names of these people are mentioned in reports

12     we shall see later on, but what you have told us is the gist of this

13     document?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So Vojin Bera, Vaso Skondric, Ranko Mijic and Jugoslav Rodic are

16     members of the commission.  Can you read the explanation -- the statement

17     of reasons to us?

18        A.   "The chief of the Security Service Centre of Banja Luka ..."

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the page be scrolled down in

20     English or the next page opened?  We need the end of the document in

21     English.  Yes, this is it.

22        A.   So the chief, pursuant to the order of the minister of the

23     interior of the Serbian Republic, the chief of the Banja Luka Security

24     Centre has issued this decision on the establishment of the commission to

25     visit the municipalities of Prijedor, Boskoski Novi and Sanski Most, and

Page 5243

 1     he gives him the tasks listed in this decision.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             May this be admitted?

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   So it's Mr. Zupljanin who issued this order as soon as he

 6     received the minister's letter; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D468, Your Honours.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             May we have 1D1905.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   So when it's zoomed in, can you tell us what sort of document

14     this is, and who signed it, and what it means?

15        A.   I cannot recognise the signature.

16        Q.   But can you tell us what this document is about?  It's another

17     order; right?

18        A.   It's an order repeating the order:

19             "... to all security services centres, public security stations,

20     and their organisational units to act exclusively in accordance with the

21     law, with MUP responsibilities, and with the regulations of the

22     International Law of War and International Conventions when dealing with

23     prisoners of war and the civilian population refugees.

24             "The ministry is to be informed immediately of the existence of

25     potential unofficial prison camps and to any behaviour towards prisoners

Page 5244

 1     of war and refugees violating legal provisions and international

 2     conventions.

 3             "It is necessary to immediately initiate the collection of

 4     intelligence and documentation on individuals violating the existing

 5     regulations and acting contrary to our orders."

 6             And they are to be reported to the relevant prosecutors' office.

 7     And it's signed by for the minister of the interior.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             May this document be admitted?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D469, Your Honours.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Can we get 1D2044.  And now we rely on our learned friends to

14     produce a translation, if they have one.  The page ends with numbers 527.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Now, Minister, if I'm not mistaken, this is a status report, and

17     refugee-related issues, collection centres, evacuation, et cetera, and it

18     refers to the document from Mr. Zupljanin.  It says on the 14th of

19     August, the commission of Sanski Most -- Prijedor, Bosanski Novi and

20     Sanski Most hereby submits this inspection report, and it first deals

21     with Prijedor municipality?

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It seems we will get a translation.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. Registrar, 17874.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

Page 5245

 1             This is the cover sheet in Serbian, and we now see the English.

 2             Can we turn to the next page in Serbian.  Now, the first

 3     sentence, please, and the second paragraph, and the next page in English

 4     as well.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The armed conflicts began in

 6     Prijedor municipality on 24th of May, 1992, in the broader area of the

 7     Kozarac settlement between the forces of the Serbian Republic and Muslim

 8     extremists, and then spread to other places in the municipality."

 9        Q.   We'll deal with that another time.  Now we are interested in this

10     inspection report.  The next paragraph, please.

11        A.   "During these clashes, the Army of Republika Srpska captured a

12     large number of members of enemy units and other persons who had been

13     found in the areas of armed conflict, and a number of citizens leaving

14     their homes sought help and protection."

15        Q.   The next paragraph, please?

16        A.   "In order to deal with this problem, the Crisis Staff of the

17     Prijedor municipality decided to organise reception and accommodation of

18     such persons in Trnopolje and that prisoners of war should be held for

19     processing in the building of the Keraterm work organisation in Prijedor

20     or in the administrative building and workshop of the iron ore mine in

21     Omarska."

22        Q.   Now, read the sentence that contains the date "24 May 1992."

23        A.   "As of 24 May 1992, a large number of Muslim citizens of both

24     sexes and all age groups sought protection in the centre.  There are

25     currently around 1500 citizens of Muslim and Croat ethnicity in this

Page 5246

 1     centre."

 2        Q.   One more sentence, please.

 3        A.   "The number of people in the centre varies.  There are no special

 4     records kept, since the citizens are free to come and go as they please."

 5        Q.   This is halfway through the last paragraph.  I hope you found it

 6     in English.  [In English] "24th of May." [Interpretation] It's halfway

 7     down the last paragraph.

 8             Thank you, Minister.  Now, can you go on?

 9             And in English, we'll probably need the next page.  The next page

10     in English, please.

11        A.   "Around-the-clock infirmary has been organised in the centre, and

12     activists of the Red Cross, the municipal authorities, and the army are

13     providing the citizens with aid in food, clothing, and other things.  In

14     the centre, the citizens have organised themselves, and they obtain and

15     prepare food and other essentials.  The area used for this purpose is not

16     fenced in, and there is no interrogation of citizens in the centre.  Army

17     troops stand guard outside the centre to secure it against any threat

18     from the extremists outside."

19        Q.   Is your knowledge about Trnopolje consistent with this report by

20     this police commission?

21        A.   I know nothing about Trnopolje or Manjaca, Mr. President.

22        Q.   We will also hear evidence from foreign witnesses that Trnopolje

23     was a self-organised centre.  Do you know that in Prijedor, after over

24     3.000 fighting men were captured, investigation and interrogation had to

25     take place in another building because the police station couldn't hold

Page 5247

 1     them?

 2        A.   I don't know about that.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.  We stay on the

 4     same page in English.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Paragraph 2:

 7             "Pursuant to the decision of the Crisis Staff, mixed operative

 8     teams were established, including representatives of national, public,

 9     and military security, with a task to conduct an operative processing of

10     all the captives and establish the degree of their personal

11     responsibility in armed combat."

12        A.   In this problem -- the army and the police created a joint team

13     to question all the people captured and established the degree of their

14     liability in armed combat.

15        Q.   Is it customary that documents are compiled in every individual

16     case, documents and records that would show why someone was released or

17     detained in Manjaca?

18        A.   In keeping with the Law on Criminal Procedure, a statement has to

19     be taken in writing, and the entire legal procedure has to be followed to

20     establish whether there are any grounds for releasing or detaining

21     someone.  The police could hold a person legally for 72 hours - I don't

22     know about the military police - and within that time-frame they had to

23     be either processed or transferred to the Public Prosecutor's Office for

24     further processing.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in both

Page 5248

 1     versions:

 2             [In English] "... in the municipality quickly spread to most of

 3     the settlements ..."

 4             [Interpretation] "However, armed conflict quickly spread

 5     throughout the municipality."

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Now, could you please read this passage that begins with the

 8     words:  "According to available documents ..."?

 9        A.   "According to available documents and lists, between 27 May and

10     16 August, 1992, a total of 3.334 persons were brought to the

11     Omarska Investigation Centre.  They had been captured by the army in

12     combat or had been found in places where hostilities had occurred, or had

13     been brought in on the basis of the results of the operative processing

14     in the investigation centre."

15        Q.   And go on, please.

16        A.   "After completing their investigations, and depending on the

17     results, the operatives divided all the captives into three categories,

18     according to the degree of personal responsibility in the armed

19     insurgency."

20        Q.   So peace was somehow maintained until the 24th of May, and the

21     armed insurgency occurred only then?

22        A.   It says "27 May."

23        Q.   The 27th of May is when they were brought in, but the armed

24     insurgency happened on the 24th?

25        A.   The first category, a person suspected of the most serious

Page 5249

 1     crimes, who were directly involved in the organisation and -- of the

 2     armed insurgency and the insurgency, itself.  The second category are

 3     persons who are suspected of organising, aiding, abetting, and financing

 4     and illegally supplying arms.  Category 3, persons who are captured and

 5     brought in from areas where they had been fighting, but happened to be

 6     there --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page in

 8     Serbian.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "... who happened to be there

10     because they were unable to withdraw to a safe place because of their own

11     extremists.  During the investigation, no evidence was found that they

12     had in any way taken part in the armed rebellion."

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Next?

15        A.   "For each category and each individual, the operatives compiled

16     documents and evidence.  After that, 1.331 persons were transferred to

17     the Manjaca Army Camp, 1.773 to the Open Reception Centre in Trnopolje,

18     while 179 are still being investigated in the Omarska Investigation

19     Centre."

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page in English, please.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Minister, do you agree that 1.773 persons were freed from further

23     investigation, and that is 57 per cent; right?  What I mean to say is:

24     More of them were freed and volunteered to go to Trnopolje than the total

25     of persons who were placed in Manjaca?

Page 5250

 1        A.   Can you rephrase that question?

 2        Q.   Does this report show that more than 50 per cent were freed from

 3     further investigation?

 4        A.   You mean that there were more of those who went to the

 5     Open Reception Centre in Trnopolje?  Yes.

 6        Q.   In the next paragraph, do you see that there were 3.000 --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, do you agree that those who were

 8     transferred to Trnopolje were freed?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's why I asked Mr. Karadzic to

10     rephrase, because it says they were placed in the Open Reception Centre,

11     Trnopolje.  I was only looking at the figures, but whether it was an open

12     or closed reception centre, I don't know.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Karadzic, I'm noting the time.

15             Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             I have to raise a scheduling issue which I think may be --

18             JUDGE KWON:  That's the question I was going to put to

19     Mr. Karadzic.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you've spent so far 19 hours and 15

22     minutes with this witness.  If we would stick to the 20 hours we

23     originally allowed to you, you would have only 45 minutes left, and you

24     should be able to conclude your cross-examination by the end of today.

25             In any event, for planning purposes, and even for your planning

Page 5251

 1     purpose, the Chamber wishes to know how much longer you would need to

 2     conclude your cross-examination.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I was hoping,

 4     Your Excellency, that I would have at least two sessions tomorrow.  You

 5     see how many areas we have yet to cover.  We finished with the struggle

 6     with the municipal authorities, investigations in prison.  We have to

 7     deal with the refugees and their return.  What we are doing now,

 8     Trnopolje, Omarska, Manjaca, and other prisons, we need to go through

 9     documents and to see what the powers of the president were, because the

10     indictment frequently alleges that the president was able to carry out

11     investigations.  And this witness, since he is a lawyer and he was a

12     minister of justice and administration, is able to tell us exactly what

13     the president was able or was not able to do.  He is such a precious

14     witness to me, and I would appreciate it, really, if I could have at

15     least another half hour to get Mr. Mandic to assist us in getting a full

16     picture about Sarajevo; who was where, who was holding which positions,

17     who was fighting against whom, which part of the population was situated

18     where, et cetera.  Mr. Mandic can be very helpful in this issue.

19             I don't think that we should sacrifice this opportunity of

20     hearing a very well-informed witness to expediency.

21             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will give its ruling when we resume at

22     10 past 1.00, after a 30 minutes' break.

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.41 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber has considered your

Page 5252

 1     request and decided that you will have two hours tomorrow.

 2             I'm afraid, Mr. Tieger, that may complicate the scheduling matter

 3     on your part.  That means the next witness should be interposed by the

 4     second-next witness?

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, we were trying to deal with all the

 6     permutations that might follow the current schedule, so let me raise a

 7     couple of issues, if I may, Your Honour.

 8             As it turns out, it appears that we -- that arrangements can be

 9     made for an interpreter for Thursday, but we would need to know that.  So

10     that would mean, among other things, it would be extremely helpful if the

11     Court could advise us, at the first opportunity, of the length of

12     anticipated cross-examination for Mr. Abdel-Razek.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I beg your pardon.  Thursday?

14             MR. TIEGER:  Correct.  I think originally we anticipated -- we

15     understood that interpreters would only be available Monday, Tuesday, and

16     Wednesday, but it looks like CLSS can make arrangements for one

17     additional day.

18             One of the reasons I raise that is that might make it possible,

19     therefore, given the schedule tomorrow, it looks like we wouldn't finish

20     Mr. Mandilovic, rather than putting him over entirely, you know, for many

21     extra days, we could complete his testimony on Monday if we factored in

22     the length of anticipated cross-examination and the availability of one

23     more day for the interpreter.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I think the Chamber will be able to give you the

25     time-limit for Mr. Karadzic's cross-examination of those witnesses coming

Page 5253

 1     by tomorrow morning.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I understand the

 3     arrangements -- we have a specialised interpreter, an Arabic interpreter

 4     involved, and so I gather, from the information we've received, that

 5     those arrangements have to be made by the close of business today.  So

 6     while I hesitate to push the Chamber on this issue, I think that's an

 7     answer we need at the first opportunity.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I'll give it a try, to give you that estimate before

 9     the end of today's business.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I was advised by the Court Deputy that the

13     Registry has kindly agreed to sit on Monday from 1.30 to 7.00.  So unless

14     the parties have a problem, we'll sit in that way on Monday.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I suppose the only thing that occurs to me is

16     since the interview of the witness is expected for Monday -- we haven't

17     been able -- we haven't been able to reach the witness because he's

18     en route, so we don't know what answer he'll give, but it does occur to

19     me that the earlier the court time commences, perhaps the less willing

20     the witness might be to engage in an interview that concludes immediately

21     before he's supposed to take the stand.  But I leave that to the Court

22     and to the Defence, primarily.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll finalise the matter tomorrow.  Thank you.

24             Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5254

 1        Q.   Minister, since I was not given as much time as I had hoped for,

 2     allow me to summarise, and could you please follow and see whether that's

 3     it.  The other participants can do that as well.

 4             You said that documentation, accompanied by material evidence,

 5     was compiled for every person, and that is why some persons were

 6     transferred to Manjaca and others to Trnopolje?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It is too fast for

 8     interpretation.  We don't have the figures.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

10             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters didn't follow you because you spoke

11     so fast; in particular, the numbers.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "Those operatives," that paragraph.

13     We've dealt with that already in English.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   I'm just trying to say that documentation had to exist then.

16     They confirmed that documentation did exist and that on the basis of

17     these previous proceedings, 1.331 individuals were found to be

18     combatants, transferred to Manjaca, and 1.733 to the centre, while 189

19     persons were still being processed.  Do you agree that this documentation

20     was, indeed, established and that it should be before this Court?

21        A.   This is the first time I see this document.  These are police

22     documents.  I can only give an interpretation on the basis of the text I

23     see here.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We asked the OTP, and

25     the OTP was convinced that there were 10 batches.  Now I'm going to ask

Page 5255

 1     the Trial Chamber to encourage the OTP to get these 3.000-something

 2     investigation documents to see why certain persons were deemed to be

 3     combatants and others were set free.  57 per cent were set free.  Could

 4     we please have those documents?

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Minister, does it say here that there were 11 Serbs as well?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I don't want to intervene and waste Mr. Karadzic's

 9     time, but I suggest to him that he doesn't do so also.  If he has a 66(B)

10     request to make or something of that nature, we can do it in proper form

11     rather than taking time during the course of this witness's examination.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, agreed.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think we already asked for

14     that, and that the response we got was that this was in the first 10

15     batches.  They did, indeed, kindly provide us with those 10 batches, but

16     it's not there.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Well, then, even more inappropriate, Your Honour.

18     Can we proceed, please?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Let's not waste, I think, precious court time.

20     Let's proceed.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   Minister, does it say that there were 11 Serbs there and also

23     that only 179 persons remain, and they would be dealt with within seven

24     days, that the investigation would be over with in seven days; right?

25        A.   Yes, that is what is stated here, 11 Serbs.

Page 5256

 1        Q.   And in the next paragraph, it says that on the basis of what the

 2     chief said, the investigation of the --

 3        A.   179 persons remaining will be completed at the latest within

 4     seven days.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  The next paragraph -- or, rather, the next chapter

 6     speaks about the moving out of citizens from the municipality of

 7     Prijedor.

 8             Can we have the next page in Serbian, please.

 9             It says here that families of these extremists, 4.000 to 5.000 of

10     them, had left earlier on, probably because they had received information

11     that there would be conflicts, whereas the others went through regular

12     procedure and asked to be allowed to leave in order to go to Croatia and

13     Europe; right?

14        A.   According to this text, yes.

15        Q.   I'm just asking whether that is what it says in this text, in

16     this police report.  I understand as minister of justice, you didn't know

17     have to know about that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Mandic.  I didn't recognise --

19     yes, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             I just wanted to note that we're continuing now in a series of

22     questions, asking this witness whether the document says what anybody in

23     the courtroom, or, for that matter, anybody outside the courtroom can see

24     what it says.  I don't think this adds any value, and it is a waste of

25     time.

Page 5257

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I can't agree more.  We can read the documents if we

 2     admit it.  And you can raise the points during your submission.  Ask a

 3     question the witness is really aware of.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I address the Defence in this

 6     respect, Your Honours?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, these are documents

 9     that are police and military documents from 1993.  This is the first time

10     that I come across them.  If you have some documents or questions where I

11     was personally involved, where I participated, where I can shed some more

12     light, whereby I can present the truth to this Court, then please put

13     questions like that to me.  This is the very first time I see these

14     police orders, then this military jurisdiction, and so on.  I really feel

15     useless.  Can I be somewhat more useful?  It seems to me that I'm sitting

16     here in vein.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can we just have the last page, then.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I'm not asking you whether these people did that exactly or

21     whether this was a usual type of police report.  That's the only thing I

22     wanted.  So can we just identify the date in both versions and the

23     signatures of these persons who you probably know or you have heard of

24     them, at least?

25        A.   Simo Drljaca, the chief, signed this, and I know him personally.

Page 5258

 1        Q.   No, I have something different.  Page 16.  Page 16, Vojin Bera,

 2     Vaso Skondric, Ranko Mijic, Jugoslav Rodic, on the 18th of August, 1992.

 3     So you were still minister, but not of the police, but minister of

 4     justice?

 5        A.   I don't have that document.

 6        Q.   Page 16, right?

 7        A.   Right.  So this is a report for the area of Prijedor.  This is a

 8     commission that was established by the chief of the Centre of Security

 9     Stations of Banja Luka in accordance with the order issued by the

10     minister.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The English version

12     only has to do with Prijedor; whereas the Serbian, it's Prijedor,

13     Bosanski Novi.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sanski Most.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Sanski Most, yes.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Has this document

18     already been admitted?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D470, Your Honours.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just have a request.  Could the

22     translation be adjusted?  It should be the translation of this document

23     rather than just of this police report signed by Simo Drljaca.

24             1D1851, could we have that, please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5259

 1        Q.   Minister, while we're waiting for this:  Have you read

 2     Professor Koljevic's diary?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Very well.  What I wish to say now is recorded there.  Do you

 5     remember that Muhamed Cengic asked, through Biljana Plavsic, that I allow

 6     Muslims from Trebinje to move out of Trebinje, and that I refused that?

 7        A.   I know that the former Deputy prime minister of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina, Muhamed Cengic, asked for permission for

 9     Herzegovinians of Muslim ethnicity to move out, but I don't know what

10     happened with regard to the actual decisions.  I know that he publicly

11     called for that.

12        Q.   Thank you, but I refused it.  We have a document here before us.

13     These are instructions of the Party of Democratic Action.  It says here:

14     "Party of Democratic Action, Trebinje."  That is the addressee.  We see

15     all of that.  We all see this document.  In this document, instructions

16     are provided -- Hasan, the other Cengic, actually, the clergyman and the

17     SDA secretary.

18             Could I have the next page, please.

19             Instructions are being provided to Muslims to go to Montenegro.

20     Now, do you remember that after they left, the Muslims, the SDA, asked

21     that Trebinje be given to them, in terms of maps, because Trebinje had

22     been a victim of ethnic cleansing?

23        A.   I saw this document earlier on, Mr. President, and I know that

24     Hasan Cengic, a hodja from Ustikkolina, who was the secretary-general of

25     the Party of Democratic Action, asked his countrymen to move out of

Page 5260

 1     certain parts of Eastern Herzegovina in order to achieve his objective;

 2     namely, he wanted the international community to be angry at the Serb

 3     municipalities that gravitated towards Montenegro and, in part, Serbia as

 4     well.

 5        Q.   Does it say here all of your --

 6             "Restitution will be made for all of your property when we

 7     achieve our goal and we will know how to put the right price on your

 8     sacrifice, a sacrifice that all of the Muslims in the world expect from

 9     you"?

10        A.   Yes, yes, I saw this document before.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted into evidence?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D471, Your Honours.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We shall corroborate this by using

15     Professor Koljevic's diary.

16             Can we have 65 ter 196, please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Is it Mr. Koljevic's diary?

18             MR. TIEGER:  No, I wanted -- I wanted to make a point, that once

19     again I ask to be advised, if possible -- I know we're moving at a

20     reasonably quick pace, but I hope the Defence is aware of which documents

21     they've notified and which they haven't.  And if they can advise us when

22     they are producing a document that's not among the 1200-plus documents

23     that's on the list they provided.

24             JUDGE KWON:  So this minute was not informed?

25             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Your Honour, that was a reference to the

Page 5261

 1     previous document, which we saw for the first time just as it was placed

 2     on the screen before the Court.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but it's the rush

 5     that has to be blamed for this.  We've up-loaded over 2.000 documents.

 6     Had we had a bit more time, we would have done all of that, but we also

 7     believe that the Prosecution is aware of these documents.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Minister, is this the 19th of August, so everything seems to be

10     happening in August?  This was a government session held in August;

11     right?

12        A.   Yes, that is one of the very few government sessions that was

13     closed to the public.

14        Q.   I see, closed to the public.  And the previous report, wasn't

15     that on the 18th of August, and then the government looked at it already

16     on the 19th?  So look at paragraph 2.  The government was actually

17     reviewing the report of the commission, so it's the first number 2 that

18     you can see there?

19        A.   Yes, yes:

20             "The government reviewed and adopted the report of the Commission

21     on Touring Collection Centres and Other Facilities for Captives in the

22     Autonomous Region of Krajina, along with the assessment that this report

23     realistically portrays the situation in these facilities."

24             This was submitted to the government within 10 days, and the

25     government accepted the report, approved it.

Page 5262

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that, as it says in the last

 2     sentence, there are no concentration camps in the Krajina?  I have this

 3     document somewhere.  That's what the government told me.  Do you remember

 4     that?

 5        A.   This record was forwarded to you in the Presidency, and it seems

 6     to me President Djeric informed you of this also.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  We don't have to read it all.

 8             Can we look at page 2 in both Serbian and English.

 9             The signature is of President Djeric and Lakic, the government

10     secretary; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May it be admitted into evidence?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D472, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             May we have D101 - it's probably been admitted as D101 - simply

17     to refresh our memories.

18             This is a document -- no, this is not it.  D101, or 1D244.  But

19     it's been admitted, 101.  Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you agree, Minister, that in the first sentence here it says

22     that:

23             "Pursuant to our document of the 13th of June," which is long

24     before the visit by the ICRC, "we issued an order, and now we

25     reiterate ..."  "we reiterate the order," that's been underlined again,

Page 5263

 1     "we order," and then there are some paragraphs dealing with the topic

 2     we've been discussing.  Can you tell us what this is about?

 3        A.   This is a second order, it's a repeated order.  It's dated the

 4     13th of June, 1992, or, rather, it's pursuant to the first of the 13th of

 5     June, 1992, and this one is on the 19th of August, and it orders that all

 6     entities honour their commitment and comply with International

 7     Humanitarian Law, especially the 3rd and 4th Geneva Conventions; to issue

 8     instruction to all combatants and all employees of the Ministry of the

 9     Interior to respect Imprisoned individuals, civilians, medical

10     institutions, private and public places, the emblem of the Red Cross, and

11     the people and resources of the United Nations."

12        Q.   Well, we've looked at items 3 and 4 with Witness Doyle, as

13     regards the handover of property, so we needn't go into that, but can you

14     please look at point 4 because it refers to this topic?

15        A.   "To immediately take steps to improve conditions in all prisons

16     within the Serbian Republic in accordance with the recommendations given

17     by the International Committee of the Red Cross during its visit to these

18     places."

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May we have the last

20     page, please?

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   The first order of the 13th of June was before the ICRC visit,

23     while this one already refers to it?

24        A.   Yes, in August.

25        Q.   And can you read the last point?

Page 5264

 1        A.   "The general standpoint is that every army and police organ of

 2     the Serbian Republic is obliged to provide every assistance for members

 3     of the International Red Cross, and any violation of the International

 4     Humanitarian Law is obliged to carry out a vigorous investigation."

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have 2092, 2D2092 --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, 1D2092.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a resume from a working

 8     meeting of MUP personnel in Trebinje, so all this is taking place on

 9     subsequent days -- on successive days.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   It doesn't say so here, but is the date the 20th of August, 1992?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 6 or 7 of the

14     document.  In English, it's page 9.  Unfortunately, we can't look at

15     everything.  In English, it's page 9.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The assessment of the chief of the

17     Sarajevo Security Centre, the Crime Investigation Service, regardless of

18     the lack of --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me, I don't see it in

20     English.  Oh, yes:  "The Sarajevo CSB chief ..."

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Please continue.

23        A.   "The Sarajevo CSB chief is of the opinion that the Crime

24     Prevention Service has, despite the shortage of professional staff,

25     significantly increased its productivity in the last period (366 reports

Page 5265

 1     of serious crimes submitted).  The efficiency regarding war crimes has

 2     been improved.  The incidents of car theft and theft of other kinds of

 3     property have also been significantly curbed thanks to the operational

 4     and preventive measures taken ..."

 5        Q.   Thank you.  So this is a report saying that by the 20th of

 6     August, activities had been stepped up to discover the perpetrators of

 7     war crimes, especially -- of crimes, especially war crimes?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we now have the next page in

10     Serbian and page 10 in English.

11             "In Bijeljina --" "The situation in Bijeljina" in English.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can you read this about Bijeljina?

14        A.   "The situation in Bijeljina is relatively satisfactory, but in

15     truth is much worse than at first glance.  The problem with the Muslim

16     section of the population is compounded by the arrival of Muslim refugees

17     and the return of those who had left Bijeljina before, influenced by

18     Mr. Karadzic's and Mr. Panic's recent statements.  This population

19     includes a number of Muslim extremists, and it is believed that a large

20     number of Muslim citizens --"

21             Could we scroll down a little bit in the Serbian.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   "Own weapons," is that it?

25        A.   " ... Muslim citizens own weapons."

Page 5266

 1        Q.   Do you agree that Mr. Panic at the time was the prime minister of

 2     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Does this report from Bijeljina say that after my appeal and

 5     Mr. Panic's appeal for the return of refugees, refugees did, indeed,

 6     return to Bijeljina, but among them there were a number of extremists?

 7        A.   Well, it's all there in the report.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             There are many interesting points in the entire report, so I

10     recommend everyone to read it.  May it be admitted?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D473, Your Honours.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   Was it our general position that refugees go back whenever it was

15     safe, whenever it was possible?  Do you know that at any time, in any

16     round of negotiations or conferences, we constantly held the position

17     that refugees have the right to return and to have their property

18     reinstated?  Did we always work for that?

19        A.   As far as I know, you always advocated that returns could --

20     refugees could return to those places that were free of combat and their

21     property would be restored to them.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, 65 ter 01131.  65 ter 01131.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is it a dispatch from the Security Services Centre, Banja Luka,

25     of 20th August?

Page 5267

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Is it now Mr. Zupljanin forwarding, again, an order from

 3     Minister Stanisic to public security stations, that is, subordinate

 4     commanders?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Could you now read briefly what Stanisic ordered and Zupljanin

 7     forwarded or passed on?

 8        A.   Through the CSB, public security stations in localities are

 9     ordered again to act strictly within the law and the international

10     conventions, and to take control and deal with irregular prisons, and to

11     ensure compliance with the international conventions with regard to the

12     treatment of refugees and --

13        Q.   Now, the last sentence?

14        A.   "It is necessary to proceed without delay, to gather information

15     and documentation, in order to submit a criminal report to the competent

16     prosecutors' office."

17             That's again the same dispatch that Stanisic had sent.

18        Q.   But he's now reiterating it, he says, "I order again"?

19        A.   Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be admitted?

21             JUDGE KWON:  While we admit this, but all the witness did is just

22     reading out some passage in the document.  We'll admit this.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D474, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, may I say

25     that the minister worked first on the police force, then he was briefly,

Page 5268

 1     for a month, in our ministry of Republika Srpska, and at this time he was

 2     minister of justice.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Put your question to the witness.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Is this a normal, standing activity of the Ministry of the

 6     Interior in law enforcement and ensuring regularities?  Was that an

 7     activity that was discussed at Cabinet sessions?

 8        A.   The activities of Minister Stanisic, in terms of law enforcement

 9     and insistence on legality, were constant, and he reported regularly to

10     Prime Minister Djeric and to the entire Cabinet.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Does this document have a number already?

13             Can we now get 1D1903.  1D1903.

14             The Serbian version is the right one, and the English one too.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Could you take a look at this telegram.  Four days later,

17     Minister Stanisic sent this to all security services centres and all

18     public security stations, so the security services centres directly

19     subordinated to him and the security stations subordinated to CSB?

20        A.   Yes, he sent this dispatch to everyone.

21        Q.   He notifies that the Ministry of Health asked something of the

22     Ministry of the Interior?

23        A.   The Ministry of Health asks that information be collected on

24     detention camps, prisons, and collection centres in the territory of the

25     republic, and he asks, from CSBs and public security stations, to provide

Page 5269

 1     the following information: the name of the place where a camp or

 2     collection centre is located; 2, the name of the person who ordered that

 3     this institution be established; 3, the name of the person who ordered

 4     people to be brought in to these detention camps, centres, et cetera; 4,

 5     the number of people in captivity, and lists containing their personal

 6     information; 5, the number of persons arrested, those in temporary

 7     detention separately from convicts, and lists of their names.

 8        Q.   Does our language and our regulations -- do they make a

 9     distinction between arrested persons and convicted persons?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   In fact, I was asking about the distinction between captured

12     persons and arrested persons.

13        A.   A person who is arrested is a person arrested normally in

14     pre-indictment proceedings, and a captured person means somebody who was

15     taken prisoner during combat.

16        Q.   The first category is subject to prosecution and the second

17     category, if not guilty of a crime, is subject to an exchange?

18        A.   Can you rephrase?  Of course, people who were deprived of liberty

19     were arrested in connection with a crime.  Whether they are in custody or

20     are serving a sentence, they fall under the category of arrested persons,

21     detainees, and the other category are those captured in combat.

22        Q.   And that would include also Serbs, if they were caught fighting

23     on the enemy side?

24             In my first question, could the interpreters make this

25     correction, I said "captured persons," not "convicts."

Page 5270

 1             Now, as a member of the government, you maybe heard of this, the

 2     Ministry of Health needed this information probably for the purposes of

 3     the International Red Cross?

 4        A.   I don't know.  Probably.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be admitted, please?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D475, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can we now get 1D224.  We won't dwell on it long.  We just want

10     to see how the chief of the Security Services Centre passes a document or

11     an order on to public security stations.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   These terms may be confusing to foreigners, but a CSB covers

14     several municipalities?

15        A.   Yes, that's a regional police centre, and public security

16     stations are municipal police stations.

17        Q.   I don't know if we have a translation for these, but is this the

18     same document from the minister that Chief Zupljanin passes on to his

19     subordinates?

20        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes, you can see the text is the same.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the bottom of the page.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, a portion of 05607 has the translation

24     for this document as well as two other documents on the accused's list.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5271

 1             Can I tender this?  If the Chamber needs the English translation,

 2     I kindly ask for this to be displayed.  But, in any case, let me point

 3     out this is the same document, order issued by the minister, and that I

 4     just wanted to show what the chief of the CSB is doing with this order.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So it forms a series of forwarding the same order,

 6     Mr. Mandic?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 9             We'll mark it for identification.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D476, Your Honours.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think Mr. Tieger said we have

13     this translation, so it doesn't need to be MFI'd.

14             Can we get 1D261.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We haven't checked whether we have a full

16     translation.  When it is verified, we can admit it.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your leave, and if there is no

18     objection from the Prosecution, I would like to show on the ELMO one of

19     my orders to the local civilian and municipal authorities that relates to

20     this topic.  It's a standing order without any date, and nobody can say

21     that it's expired.  This is, I think, a good time for Mr. Mandic to

22     identify this document, if we can put it on the ELMO.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Could you tell us what this instruction means?  It was issued to

25     all the local police and civilian authorities.

Page 5272

 1        A.   I know this document.  It's your order and instruction to all

 2     local civilian and police authorities, which means local self-governments

 3     in municipalities, in the police:

 4             "Allow ICRC delegates to travel throughout the territory of

 5     Bosnia and Herzegovina which is controlled by the Serbs.  They are

 6     authorised to visit any and all prisons, including military camps and

 7     police stations under Serbian control.  Therefore, all the troops of the

 8     Serbian forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina are required by you to facilitate

 9     the safe passage for ICRC delegates and vehicles.  ICRC delegates shall

10     prove their identity by producing Red Cross IDs and displaying the emblem

11     of the Red Cross on their vehicles.

12             "B.  All measures should be taken to ensure that the Red Cross

13     emblem is respected and to avoid any disturbance and/or attack on the

14     vehicles and staff of the ICRC.  All information related to prisoners

15     should be provided and ICRC visits to prisons facilitated."

16        Q.   Do you know, Minister, that we gave this to the representatives

17     of the ICRC and that they could show it along with their ID cards at any

18     check-point in order to be allowed to pass?

19        A.   To the best of my recollection, this was used by them instead of

20     a pass.  This was a pass, actually, for them.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             May it be admitted or marked for identification?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Is there a date on this document?  Can we see the

24     top part of it.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no date, Your Honours,

Page 5273

 1     because it's a standing order.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember when it was issued?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the early summer of 1992.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be marked for identification.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D477, Your Honours.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             May we have in e-court 65 ter 146.  146.  Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can you identify these minutes?

10        A.   These are minutes from the session of the Presidency of

11     Republika Srpska of the 30th of November, 1992.

12        Q.   And the agenda?

13        A.   The agenda was:

14             "The question of a pardon for Elvir Kesadzic, prisoner in the

15     Manjaca camp; transfer of payments and financial transactions; report on

16     war crimes against the Serbian people in the former Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina --"

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  May we have page 3 of

19     this document, please.  I believe it's also page 3 in English.  AD-5 is

20     the passage we want.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   In Serbian, we'll probably have to move on to the next page, but

23     can you read where it says:  "Commissioners and commissions ..."?

24        A.   "Commissioners and commissions must be introduced --"

25             Oh, now it's gone.

Page 5274

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 3 back, please, in

 2     Serbian.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Commissioners --"

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   In English, it begins with:  "Commissioners and commissions ..."

 6     Please go on.

 7        A.   "... must be introduced in areas where the civilian municipal

 8     authority is not functioning.  A commissioner must bear personal

 9     responsibility.  The question of army apartments and other property must

10     be systematically resolved.  Also there were objections to the work of

11     the civilian authorities in the municipalities, and the conclusion was

12     personnel changes are required in cases where this is justified, it must

13     be made possible under the law to dismiss the municipal authorities."

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But we don't see this in English.

15     It's all in item 5 in English.  We should put that back.  It's the next

16     page in English.  It's a new page.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   So you say:

19             "It is necessary to make it legally possible for municipal

20     authorities to be stripped of power."

21             Can we have page 4 in Serbian.

22             And while we are waiting for it to come up:  Minister, is this

23     evidence that in late November, the government was fed up with the

24     self-will of the municipal authorities, or self-management, let me put it

25     that way, the vestiges of the old regime?  Yes, yes, the Presidency

Page 5275

 1     session, but this is probably at the request of the government.

 2        A.   Can you repeat your question, please?

 3        Q.   I simply wanted to ask you:  Does this prove that in late

 4     November, the Presidency, probably at the initiative of the government,

 5     was dissatisfied with the way authority was passed down to municipal

 6     level?

 7        A.   I think we were still in the process of setting up the government

 8     authorities at that time, and that individual local authorities were out

 9     of control still.

10        Q.   Could you read and interpret page 4, please?

11        A.   The issue of the role of deputies in those milieus in which they

12     were elected was raised again.  A deputy must carry out or implement the

13     government authority in his area, and his work must be two-way between

14     the people and the authority.

15             Conclusion:

16             "The status, rights, duties, powers and personal responsibilities

17     of people's deputies must be regulated by special decision."

18        Q.   Thank you.  Does the Presidency here advocate influencing events

19     on the ground through the people's deputies, which implies that prior to

20     this, they did not have any influence on the ground?

21        A.   Yes, in the areas from which they were elected.

22        Q.   Is that how it was?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you also agree that the president did not have any authority

25     over deputies and could only ask them or appeal to them to act in this

Page 5276

 1     way?

 2        A.   In a situation of an imminent threat of war, you had no legal

 3     power over the deputies.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             May this document be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D478, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             May we now have D92.  It's already been admitted, but it's simply

10     to refresh our memories as to how, in late July, the situation regarding

11     minorities [Realtime transcript read in error "minors"] at Pale was

12     developing.

13             Can we now have page 16 in Serbian and page 21 in English.

14             JUDGE KWON:  While we are waiting for that:  Mr. Mandic, when was

15     it that you were sent to Belgrade?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In late 1992, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  How late in 1992?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the 23rd of November, when

19     Mr. Djeric resigned at the Assembly in Zvornik.  So the date is the 23rd

20     of November.  After that, I was informed that I would continue working in

21     Belgrade.

22             JUDGE KWON:  My question was whether you were in Bosnia at the

23     time of the previous Presidency meeting which we saw just now.  It was

24     dated as 30th of November.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was in Bosnia at that time.

Page 5277

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             May we now look at the minutes of this session.

 4             And it refers to minorities, not minors.  I'm afraid that the

 5     transcript says "minors" rather than "minorities," so it's about the

 6     treatment of minorities.

 7             And it says here:

 8             "In Podrinje, the Muslims do not want peace, except in

 9     Bijeljina."

10             In English, it says:

11             "The Serbs and others live freely there."

12             If you find the word "Podrinje" in the Serbian version -- can we

13     scroll down in Serbian?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is it page 16?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, page 16, [indiscernible].

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   "The Serbs and others live freely there."

18             We do have the text in English, but can we have the next page in

19     Serbian?

20        A.   "I must say that, sadly, the Muslims in Podrinje do not want

21     peace, except in Bijeljina, in Pale, where they form 20 per cent of the

22     population, where nobody bothers them or considers them to be

23     second-class citizens.  On the contrary, our government officials are

24     communicating with them to persuade them that they have nothing to fear.

25     Therefore, in Serb Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Serbs have accomplished

Page 5278

 1     their state, their freedom, and the state is big enough for all.  I hope

 2     that at this Assembly session, we shall come to some conclusions and

 3     decisions to further strengthen this state."

 4        Q.   Do you recall that at Pale, the deputy prime minister -- the

 5     vice-president of the republic, Mr. Koljevic, was always at the disposal

 6     of the Muslims, whenever they wanted to come and talk to them, and that

 7     he kept telling them that they need not be afraid even though some

 8     Muslims elsewhere had killed their Serb neighbours?

 9        A.   I don't know that Mr. Koljevic spoke to them, but I do know for

10     certain that Malko Koroman, the chief of police at Pale, was very

11     concerned and very active in ensuring their safety and security.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Does it say here also that they were living

13     peacefully in Bijeljina, and that can be linked to the other document we

14     saw, stating that Muslims were actually returning to Bijeljina when

15     Mr. Panic and I called upon them to do so?

16        A.   Yes.  It's stated here that in Bijeljina, the Muslims were living

17     in peace.

18        Q.   Can you tell Their Honours what Podrinje is and what it has to do

19     with the region of Birac?

20        A.   Podrinje is a territory bordering with Serbia, along the Valley

21     of the River Drina, from Foca to Bijeljina, the towns are Zvornik,

22     Bratunac, Srebrenica, Ljubinje, Ljubija, Foca, Visegrad and others.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do I say here that in Podrinje, they don't want

24     peace, except for Bijeljina, where they do want peace; is that right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5279

 1        Q.   Do you agree that along the River Drina, there is a small town

 2     called Janja, with a large Muslim community, and that it remained

 3     peaceful throughout the war, and that there was never any combat there or

 4     any fighting?

 5        A.   Janja had a majority Muslim population both before the war and

 6     now.  It's between Zvornik and Bijeljina, closer to Bijeljina.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This is already in

 8     evidence.

 9             May we now have 1D2031.

10             JUDGE KWON:  While we are waiting:  Mr. Mandic, you didn't answer

11     the question by the accused as to the relation between the region of

12     Birac and Podrinje.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could he clarify the question?  I

14     didn't understand.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you agree that Podrinje is a broader term and that part of it

17     is the region of Birac, which we will show on the map tomorrow?

18        A.   Yes.  When I was explaining where the territory of Podrinje

19     extends, it extends along the banks of the River Drina, from Foca to

20     Bijeljina, and there are all these towns on the banks of the River Drina,

21     Bijeljina, Janja, Zvornik, Bratunac, Srebrenica, Visegrad, Foca.

22        Q.   And Gorazde; right?

23        A.   Yes, and Gorazde, whereas Birac extends from Zvornik in the

24     direction of Sarajevo, in the direction of Milici and Vlasenica.

25        Q.   Also Bratunac and Srebrenica?

Page 5280

 1        A.   Yes, it covers parts of the municipalities of Bratunac and

 2     Srebrenica.  These are continental municipalities at the foot of

 3     Mount Romanija.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us about this document dated the 10th of September,

 5     1992?

 6        A.   Here, you addressed the Main Staff of the Army of the Serb

 7     Republic, and you consider that we do not have the right to reject Muslim

 8     recruits and their desire to defend the Serbian Republic:

 9             "Furthermore, we find their desire to fight against the Croatian

10     Ustasha, rather than on some other front, understandable.

11             "Therefore, please ensure the proper political conditions for

12     accepting these Muslim soldiers and treating them with dignity.  Also, I

13     do not think it is advisable to form a separate Muslim unit, but rather

14     that they should be deployed in the existing units."

15        Q.   Do you agree that this is my response to a confidential telegram

16     when the Main Staff asked me what they should do with those Muslims who

17     wanted to fight, and here I agreed to their being accepted; is that

18     right?

19        A.   Mr. President, I am not aware of what the Main Staff of the Army

20     of Republika Srpska wrote to you, but I do know that on the territory of

21     Bijeljina, Janja, and Trebinje, there were soldiers in the Army of

22     Republika Srpska who were of Muslim ethnicity.

23        Q.   I thought that separate units should not be established.  But do

24     you know that in some areas like Srbac, they did want to have their own

25     unit, but until the end of the war they were part of our army?

Page 5281

 1        A.   I'm not aware of that.  I don't know how units were established

 2     and for how long they fought, but I do know that there were non-Serbs

 3     fighting in the Army of Republika Srpska.  That, I can confirm.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you also confirm there were also Croats who were

 5     officers at Pale, who remained there throughout the war and are still

 6     there to this day, living at Pale?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I asked you about positive discrimination.  Do you

 9     agree that the Serbs had to respond to mobilisation, whereas Muslims and

10     Croats were not obliged to do so, and if they did respond, we did not put

11     them at lines where they would have to fight against their co-nationals,

12     people of the same ethnicity; rather, we put them on other lines,

13     because, as it says here, it was their desire -- it was their wish, which

14     we considered to be natural?

15        A.   I'm not aware of that, Mr. President.  The deployment of

16     non-Serbs in the Army of Republika Srpska is something I'm not familiar

17     with.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             May this be admitted?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D479, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D365.  We don't have

23     the Serbian version here.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I show this to you because you will know how this agreement was

Page 5282

 1     implemented.  I will read it out in English:

 2             [In English] "Between the Board of Deputies of British Jews and

 3     the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia."

 4             [No interpretation]:

 5             [In English] "The Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia,

 6     whereby permission is given to enable those members of the Jewish

 7     community living in Sarajevo, who wish to leave the city, to do so

 8     without any fear of harm, attack, or any other adverse consequence."

 9             [Interpretation] And here we can see the other points.

10             May we have the last page, please.  Thank you.

11             [In English] "It is further agreed that members of the Jewish

12     community who leave Sarajevo in this way be held the right to return and

13     reclaim their properties.  Their homes will be sealed and protected from

14     invasion." [Interpretation] And this is signed in London on the 29th of

15     July, 1992.

16             Do you remember that the Sarajevo Jews left over our territory,

17     whereas in the Serbian Republic they remained mainly in Doboj?

18        A.   I'm not aware of the way in which these Jews were allowed to pass

19     through the territory of Republika Srpska.  This is the first time I have

20     seen this document.

21        Q.   Well, we did not publicise this, we didn't advertise it.  But do

22     you recall that Slovenes, Croats, and Muslims all left passing through

23     our territory, and do you remember that the candidate for the Presidency

24     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, representing others, was Mr. Ceresnjes, who was

25     the leader of the Jewish community in Sarajevo?

Page 5283

 1        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

 2        Q.   Well, you didn't deal with politics, so we'll attend to this

 3     through some other witness on some other occasion.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That's it for today.

 5             As regards the time for cross-examination of the coming witness,

 6     General Abdel-Razek, the Chamber has considered the following points:

 7     first, the limited period of time covered by the anticipated testimony of

 8     the witness, regarding broadly the same issues as the previous witness;

 9     two, the small number of associated exhibits with a few pages only,

10     including some video material; third, the fact that the Prosecution

11     requested one hour for examination-in-chief; and, number 4, in particular

12     bearing in mind the fact that the witness can provide specific evidence

13     about meetings with the accused and other alleged JCE members, in

14     particular, Mrs. Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic.

15             So although Mr. Karadzic asked for 14 hours for his

16     cross-examination, the Chamber is of the view that a reasonable time for

17     cross-examination of this particular witness should not exceed five

18     hours.

19             I hope this will be of assistance in your planning.

20             We'll -- yes.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             And I may have misspoke earlier, without factoring in all the

23     circumstances.  So given the current circumstances, I can't think of an

24     objection on our part to the proposed schedule for Monday.  And I may

25     have signaled otherwise, so I just wanted to make that clear.

Page 5284

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I learn until when I will be

 4     here tomorrow so that I can arrange my travel?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We allowed the accused to have a further two hours

 6     tomorrow.  That will be -- the first session will be closed -- will be

 7     concluded at 10.30, and after which he will have a half-an-hour break and

 8     he will have a further 30 minutes.  So that means unless the Chamber --

 9     any member of the Chamber has a question for you, you will be free to

10     leave around 11.30, at least before noon tomorrow.  Thank you,

11     Mr. Mandic.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume at 9.00 tomorrow.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th day of July,

17                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.