Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5285

 1                           Friday, 16 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning to everybody.

 7             Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, and good morning, everyone.

 9             First of all, I'd like to thank the Chamber for accommodating us

10     on Monday with the scheduling so that the interview of

11     General Abdel-Razek could take place.  And I would like to ask you for

12     one other scheduling issue, and that regards the last witness of next

13     week that's scheduled to come, Mr. Suljevic.  And by our calculations, we

14     don't believe that there would be sufficient time during the week to

15     complete his cross-examination.  He's testifying about 17 different

16     shelling incidents.  We've asked for 20 hours of cross-examination, and

17     it may be that the Chamber reduces that, we don't think it would be

18     likely to be reduced to such an amount that his testimony could be

19     concluded next week, and in that event we would prefer not to break up

20     his cross-examination and ask that the Chamber consider advising the

21     parties that it would not have this witness testify before the summer

22     recess.  So I wanted to alert you to that at the beginning of today's

23     session so it can be considered.  I've discussed it with Mr. Tieger, and

24     that's our request, that we simply complete the testimony of the two

25     witnesses, Mandilovic and Abdel-Razek, next week, and that should bring

Page 5286

 1     us to sometime on Wednesday and recess at that time.

 2             Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

 4             Mr. Tieger, at this moment I don't think we need your assistance.

 5     I was about to come to this issue.

 6             With due respect, Mr. Robinson, we have to disagree.  I was about

 7     to raise that issue.

 8             The Chamber anticipates the conclusion of Mr. Mandic's evidence

 9     today and beginning the evidence of Mr. Mandilovic.  Given that we have

10     granted four hours for cross-examination of Mr. Mandilovic, his evidence

11     should be concluded by the end of second session on Monday, when we will

12     begin to hear the evidence of Mr. Abdel-Razek.

13             The Chamber informed the parties yesterday that it would grant

14     five hours for cross-examination of Mr. Abdel-Razek, which should take us

15     to the end of the day on Tuesday.  We would then start Mr. Suljevic's

16     evidence on Wednesday, and the Chamber has applied the criteria

17     previously set out and determined that six hours is a sufficient time for

18     his cross-examination.

19             We therefore anticipate being able to complete Mr. Suljevic's

20     evidence by the end of the day on Thursday.  While the precise timing

21     remains to be seen, I would ask all the parties to do their best to

22     ensure that we can fit within this general guide-line by not exceeding

23     the time indicated for direct and cross-examination, and by being ready

24     to start promptly at the beginning of each day and after the breaks.

25             There's one further matter which concerns the evidence of

Page 5287

 1     Mr. Mandic.

 2             The Chamber refers to the evidence given by Mr. Mandic in the

 3     Stanisic and Zupljanin case, portions of which the accused has asked to

 4     be admitted into evidence as part of his Rule 92 ter written evidence.

 5     The Chamber notes that the Prosecution did not object to the admission of

 6     those portions identified by the accused in this manner.

 7             The Chamber has considered the accused's request, and the Chamber

 8     will admit the portions of Mr. Mandic's evidence from Stanisic and

 9     Zupljanin tendered by the accused pursuant to Rule 92 ter, which should

10     be up-loaded into e-court and given an exhibit number.

11             Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             I understood the Prosecution would have an opportunity to

14     indicate to the Court the page -- the portions of the transcript that it

15     considered should be admitted as well.  I'm prepared to read those into

16     the record now or take care of it at a more convenient time, as the Court

17     wishes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Could you do that in writing so that the accused can

19     respond to that, and then the Chamber will make a ruling later on.

20             MR. TIEGER:  That's fine.

21             I would simply note there's no objection, but I would be happy to

22     do so.

23             JUDGE KWON:  After which the one exhibit number will be given; is

24     that --

25             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, I think that's appropriate.

Page 5288

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And if the accused wishes to tender any of the

 2     exhibits which form an indispensable and inseparable part of the admitted

 3     portions of Mr. Mandic's testimony in Stanisic and Zupljanin, he should

 4     provide the Chamber with a list of these associated exhibits, clearly

 5     identifying where they are referred to in the relevant transcripts.  In

 6     order to satisfy the indispensable and inseparable requirements, any item

 7     sought to be admitted in this manner must be one without which

 8     Mr. Mandic's testimony in Stanisic and Zupljanin would become

 9     incomprehensible or of less probative value.  The Chamber will then

10     determine whether any of these exhibits should be admitted as associated

11     exhibits.

12             So, Mr. Karadzic, we would ask you that you provide this list to

13     us by the end of the day on Tuesday, 20th July.

14             That said, we'll continue to hear the last part of

15     cross-examination of Mr. Mandic by Mr. Karadzic.  As I indicated,

16     Mr. Karadzic, you will have two hours.

17                           WITNESS:  MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20             Good morning to everybody.  Good morning, Minister.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll have to again ask for the

23     indulgence of my learned friend and everyone in the courtroom, because I

24     have a document we have not seen before.  It was e-mailed last night to

25     the OTP, but I'm not sure it has arrived in e-court.  It's 1D2117.  If we

Page 5289

 1     don't have it in e-court, we have two copies, one for the ELMO and one

 2     for the witness.  And the purpose of the document is to see how an arrest

 3     was carried out in Zvornik, an arrest of members of the Yellow Wasps, who

 4     are listed as my co-perpetrators in the joint criminal enterprise.

 5                      Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Minister, is this a communique from the Ministry

 7     of the Interior, dated the 31st of July, 1992?

 8        A.   I saw this document in 1992, and I know about this event, when

 9     paramilitary units who had committed crimes in the Podrinje area between

10     Zvornik and Bratunac and Bijeljina.  And at your initiative and the

11     initiative of the prime minister, in co-ordinated action, the police and

12     the army arrested about a dozen of these men and handed them over to the

13     competent organs.

14             I know that this Vuckovic was tried and sentenced for a war

15     crime.  He was the leader of the Yellow Wasps, and this was one of the

16     first actions of the legal organs of the government, the state, against

17     paramilitary units who did not want to subordinate themselves to the

18     military command.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             May this document be admitted and marked for identification?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D480, Your Honours.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you agree, Minister, that they resisted arrest and that they

25     were armed, so that a special-purpose unit had to be used which arrived

Page 5290

 1     from Pale?

 2        A.   Yes, I know all about this because the government received a

 3     report of this event.  I know that some looted property was found in the

 4     possession of these people.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can we now look at 1D2118.  If it has not arrived in e-court, I

 7     hope everybody has a translation.  Could you just give the document to

 8     Mr. Mandic, and there is a translation which I hope everybody has.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I confirm that the Bench has the English

10     translation.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you agree, Minister, that these were Serbian citizens and that

13     we extradited them to Serbia?

14        A.   It's the first time I've seen the indictment, but I do know they

15     underwent trial very soon in the Republic of Serbia because they were

16     citizens of Serbia, yes.

17        Q.   Can you please read the highlighted parts?

18        A.   This is an indictment launched with the District -- rather,

19     lodged by the District Attorneys' Office against Dusko Vuckovic and

20     Vojin Vuckovic, also known as Zuco, and I think the Yellow Wasps were

21     named after him.  And from April to June 1992, on the territory of

22     Zvornik municipality in the former Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as

23     members of the Igor Markovic Unit, which was part of the Zvornik

24     Municipality TO War Staff during the civil war in the former Republic of

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina, they violated international law by killing,

Page 5291

 1     inflicting bodily injuries on, and torturing the civilian population.

 2     And then the dates are mentioned.  The crimes are described as a war

 3     crime against the civilian population.  This was a federal law, so the

 4     Penal Code of the FRY applied, whereas rape is a republican -- is a crime

 5     of the republican law, so the law of Serbia was applied.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please look at page 5 and read out the

 7     highlighted part?

 8        A.   "The accused, Dusko Vuckovic, stated in his Defence that he

 9     really cut off the ear of a Muslim, that he fired shots from an automatic

10     rifle in the cultural centre in Celopek, and as far as he remembers, he

11     killed seven or eight people.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Page 6 in English.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So as far as he remembers, he

14     killed seven or eight people, but:

15             "He claims he never forced (redacted) to have sexual

16     intercourse with him and that he did not take 1.000 German marks from

17     her."

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   The prosecutor did not believe him?

20        A.   Yes, the prosecutor thought he was simply trying to lessen his

21     responsibility.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the name of the victim be

23     redacted.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 5292

 1     (redacted)

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   And can you read the highlighted part of the last page?

 4        A.   "It is proposed that the detention of the accused Dusko Vuckovic

 5     be extended until the trial is concluded because the accused committed

 6     three serious criminal offences which upset the public and because a

 7     sentence of 10 years' imprisonment is prescribed for each of the

 8     offences.  The release of the accused Dusko during the trial would upset

 9     the public even more, which could affect the peaceful course of the

10     criminal proceedings."

11        Q.   And they did not release him, did they?

12        A.   They did not release him until the final sentence.

13        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Did the local leadership have sufficient

14     reason, in view of the fact that they received complaints against these

15     people, and we at Pale also received complaints against them, to warn the

16     citizens that they could not guarantee their safety until such time as

17     these renegade elements were brought under control?

18        A.   Well, I can only speculate, but I assume that this was one of the

19     reasons that the safety of the population could not be guaranteed,

20     because the local authorities were unable to control these renegade

21     units.

22        Q.   Do you happen to know that the Muslims returned to Kozluk alive

23     and well, almost all of them, and that nothing bad happened to them?

24     Yes, they went to Subotica and then on to European countries, but as soon

25     as the war was over, they came back, and now they live in

Page 5293

 1     Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   The place where there is the greatest number of returnees, the

 3     two places, are Janja and Kozluk on the territory of the

 4     Republika Srpska, and I know that they have built two or three houses of

 5     worship and that many Muslims now live and work in Kozluk.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             May this document be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, Mr. Mandic, I didn't follow your

 9     statement that these Vuckovic brothers, they did not -- they were not

10     released -- I strike that.  I quote you:

11             "They did not release him until the final sentence."

12             So did you mean that they were released at the time of their

13     sentence?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they are still in prison,

15     Your Honours.  I think that one of them has even died, had a heart

16     attack.  They were never released, actually.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Do you, by any chance, know how this trial ended up,

18     the conclusion of this trial?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, we have the sentence --

20     the judgement.  The next document is the judgement, actually.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Because you moved to another topic, I intervened.

22     Thank you.  I apologise.

23             This will be admitted.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D481, Your Honours.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, but as since we are

Page 5294

 1     still discussing the pre-trial stage in relation to this group, can we

 2     have 1D2119.  Unfortunately, we don't have the translation.  It's the

 3     judgement.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   So would you kindly read us the statement of reasons in the

 6     judgement, the highlighted part?

 7             The Registry has this copy of the judgement.  It's 2119.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's in e-court.  And in the meantime, until

 9     the redacted version will be offered, 1D -- no, the Exhibit D481, this

10     indictment will be put under seal.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This person did not ask to be

12     protected, but my feeling is that the name should be kept from the

13     public.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Minister -- we have the translation.

16        A.   This is the final judgement of the Supreme Court of Serbia,

17     following an appeal by the accused and the OTP, and Dusan Vuckovic is

18     sentenced to eight years and six months in prison.  That's for committing

19     a war crime against the civilian population from Article 142(1) of the

20     Penal Code of the Republic of Yugoslavia, and a prison sentence of two

21     years for the crime of rape, Article 103(1) of the Penal Code of the

22     Republic of Serbia.

23             [In English] Could you lift the page a little bit.  Now they

24     don't see anything.

25             JUDGE KWON:  As a lawyer, I think Mr. Mandic is able to sum up

Page 5295

 1     the crux of the judgement, and we can read the judgement later on.  We

 2     can move expeditiously in that way.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dusan Vuckovic was found guilty of

 5     several crimes, and an amalgamated sentence of 10 years was handed down.

 6     And the time he spent in custody has been credited to him.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   Can you please turn to page 10 in Serbian.  And as we are talking

 9     about a crime --

10             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, it should reach "Dusko" instead of

11     "Dusan"; correct, Mr. Mandic?

12             THE ACCUSED:  If I may, this is a usual hypocorism for "Dusan,"

13     when you call Dusan "Dusko."

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, the Appeals Court is giving

16     the grounds as to why the prison sentence.

17             THE ACCUSED:  In English:  "The fact ..."

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Please go on.  I apologise.

20        A.   The Court of Appeal has increased the prison sentence of this

21     Dusko because they felt that the Trial Chamber gave too much weight to

22     mitigating circumstances; that he had a young child, that he had been

23     captured by the Muslims and tortured.  But they did not give sufficient

24     weight to aggravating circumstances, which is that the victims were

25     civilians, and this was an especially aggravating circumstance for the

Page 5296

 1     accused.

 2             THE ACCUSED:  Article in English, please, because Dr. Kovacevic

 3     is mentioned in this and in Serbian version is not.

 4             Okay, anyway, if the participants are satisfied, we can end.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  This will be admitted.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D482, Your Honours.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Minister, a witness here, an expert, said that the commander in

 9     Banja Luka had told him that he would disarm paramilitaries.  That

10     witness was actually misled by other people that it would be the Muslim

11     paramilitaries that would be disarmed.  Do you agree that the SOS are

12     Serb paramilitaries and that they were disarmed?  So if the SOS were

13     disarmed, it is a case of disarming Serbs, not Muslims?

14        A.   SOS are Serb paramilitary units.  I know about that.  I don't

15     know anything about that disarming, though.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With the permission of the

17     Trial Chamber, we are going to tender those documents as well about the

18     disarming of Serbs in the area around Banja Luka.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Minister, had we been granted all the time we had asked for, we

21     could have clarified all these matters, but now I'd like to draw your

22     attention to something.  I don't know how good you are at geography, but

23     this map shows the borders of municipalities.

24             So could I please have in e-court map number 2070123

25     [as interpreted] from the batch that is called "The Karadzic Court

Page 5297

 1     Binder."  Perhaps the distinguished Mr. Tieger knows the actual number in

 2     e-court.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Is that number --

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, if that number could be repeated.  I don't

 5     think that's a correct recitation of the number.  There's a few too much

 6     digits, for one thing.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's the second map in this binder,

 8     and there's this red number here, "0701-0723."

 9             MR. TIEGER:  That should help, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, map number 2 in that binder.

11             MR. TIEGER:  19149.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13             Yes, that's the map.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Minister, may I ask you to start from the south -- the

16     south-east, rather.  Can you indicate the municipality of Trebinje, which

17     is a predominantly-Serb municipality, purely Serb, as we say in our

18     language?

19        A.   [Marks].  Before the war, that is to say, in 1991, Trebinje had a

20     majority Serb population.  20-something per cent of the population were

21     Muslim and about 5 or 6 per cent were others.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23        A.   I happen to know the composition of that population because I

24     worked in the police force and we had this information about all

25     municipalities.

Page 5298

 1        Q.   In our language, when we say "purely Serb," it doesn't mean

 2     Serb-cleansed, it means predominantly Serb; way over 50 per cent, let's

 3     put it that way?

 4        A.   Roughly over two-thirds of the population Serb.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Is Ljubinje right next to it, and is Ljubinje also

 6     over 50 per cent Serb?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, do you see the municipality of Stolac?  Do you know where

 9     the former municipality of Berkovic is that belongs to Stolac?

10        A.   It's on the road between Bileca and Stolac.  I'm going to mark it

11     here.  [Marks]

12        Q.   And it remained in Republika Srpska; right?

13        A.   That's a newly-formed municipality, Berkovici.  It exists to this

14     day.  Yes, it's in the territory of Republika Srpska.

15        Q.   Minister, I give the microphone to you now, and could you tell us

16     about these municipalities in Stari Herzegovina, like Foca and others?

17     We had an MP from Foca, though.  And could you mark the front-line, to

18     the best of your recollection?  I don't expect it to be absolutely

19     precise.  No one could expect that.  But we would like the Trial Chamber

20     to see what this is all about.

21        A.   Trebinje -- well, we are talking about the population and the

22     composition of municipalities on the eve of the war in 1991.  Trebinje

23     was a predominantly-Serb town, as well as Ljubinje, Bileca, Gacko,

24     Nevesinje, Kalinovik.  Foca was 51 per cent -- or, rather,

25     50-something per cent Muslim populated and 49 per cent Serb populated.

Page 5299

 1     It was sort of half/half, as far as Foca was concerned.  So this was a

 2     split municipality, if we look at population figures only.

 3        Q.   And this part below Foca, is that Eastern Herzegovina?  The SAO

 4     Eastern Herzegovina, did it consist of these municipalities?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Have you already moved on to the SAO of Stari Herzegovina?

 7     Actually, I don't know whether they had established an SAO, but

 8     Kalinovik, Foca, Gorazde, Rudo and Cajnice is Stari Herzegovina, isn't

 9     it, and Visegrad too?

10        A.   Gorazde had a predominantly-Muslim population.  Visegrad also had

11     a predominantly-Muslim population.  Rudo and Cajnice were predominantly

12     Serb populated.  That is what I had put a circle around.  Rogatica,

13     predominantly Muslim populated.  Sokolac, Serb population.  Pale, also

14     predominantly Serb populated. [Marks]  However, the municipality of Pale

15     belonged to the city of Sarajevo.  It was the 10th municipality within

16     the city of Sarajevo.  Srebrenica was predominantly Muslim populated.

17     Han Pijesak is SAO Romanija, predominantly Serb populated.  Zvornik --

18     Zvornik, Bratunac and Srebrenica, Podrinje, was predominantly Muslim

19     populated. [Marks]

20        Q.   Could you use a blue marker now to show East Herzegovina,

21     Stari Herzegovina, and Birac, as three regions, so that the Trial Chamber

22     would understand what we mean when speaking about those regions?

23        A.   This is Herzegovina, the region of Eastern Herzegovina.  [Marks]

24        Q.   Would you put an E and H there, please.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 5300

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And now Stari Herzegovina, Old Herzegovina?

 2        A.   Stari Herzegovina, Old Herzegovina [marks].  However, Foca was

 3     also included in Old Herzegovina.  So this is Stari Herzegovina.  [Marks]

 4        Q.   Birac?  Also, I think Visegrad was also included in

 5     Stari Herzegovina, if I remember correctly, but then you would --

 6        A.   I'm talking about the pre-war situation.  However, during the

 7     course of the war, of course, Visegrad became included in that --

 8             THE ACCUSED:  "Stari Grad" means "Old Herzegovina."

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You put an "SH" there, so could you put an "OH" there instead?

11     Right.  Birac includes Zvornik, Vlasenica, and Sekovici, I believe,

12     right?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15        A.   This is Birac.  [Marks]

16        Q.   Birac.  Could you please identify the SAO of Semberija and

17     Majevica?

18        A.   Semberija, Majevica, Bijeljina, Lopare.

19        Q.   And Ugljevik?

20        A.   Yes, and Ugljevik.  [Marks]

21        Q.   Thank you.  Semberija and Majevica.  Please could you please

22     indicate the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and while you're marking it,

23     could you tell us who lives there and what the ratio is?

24        A.   The SAO Krajina was composed of Drvar, Mrkonjic, Skender Vakuf,

25     all of this.  [Marks]

Page 5301

 1        Q.   I'm afraid it's part of Krupa, too, so look at the River Una, if

 2     you remember.

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   Krupa, Novi and Kostunica up there, so the River Una; right?

 5             Do you agree that in Bosanska Grahovo, almost 100 per cent of the

 6     population was Serb?

 7        A.   Serbs had an absolute majority in Petrovac, in Drvar, in Grahovo.

 8     That is the so-called Visoko Krajina, the High Krajina.  The population

 9     was mainly involved in livestock production.  It was a mountainous area.

10     [Marks]

11        Q.   Thank you.  Bosansko Grahovo, Livanjsko Polje, Glamoc, Sipovo,

12     and Kljuc, could you include all of that?  It's not Jajce, though, no,

13     no.  Just part of that field there?  Yes, right.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   No, no, you've taken too much of Livno.  So this is invalid, if

16     you could mark it that way.

17             JUDGE KWON:  There's a way you can delete it, Mr. Mandic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, excellent.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could you now mark Doboj, Derventa, Modrica, where there were

21     relative Serb majorities and there were some villages that we're going to

22     look at on another map, but, anyway, could you mark that?

23        A.   Doboj [marks].  This is Modrica [marks].  Here's Derventa

24     [marks].

25        Q.   Now part of the municipalities of Brod, Orasje, Obudovac,

Page 5302

 1     et cetera, and there's a link up there; right?

 2        A.   Yes.  [Marks]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could you just put "NB" there standing for "North

 4     Bosnia."

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please initial this, and could you put the

 7     date there?  Oh, yes, sorry, Romanija, could you mark the Sarajevo

 8     Romanija region?  What was that?

 9        A.   Sokolac, Han Pijesak.  [Marks]

10        Q.   Thank you.  Put an "SR" there, "Sarajevo Romanija."

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Thank you.  And the date now, and then your initials, and then

13     we're going to ask for the next map.

14        A.   [Marks]

15             JUDGE KWON:  "BK" would mean "Bosnian Krajina" or "Bosanski

16     Krajina"?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  However, I'm not very good at

18     this.  I'm not very good at drawing, Your Honours.  I beg your pardon.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Do you agree that this is Cazinska Krajina, to the north of the

21     letters BK?

22             JUDGE KWON:  I beg your pardon.  Was that saved?  Did we give

23     that a number?  Let's give it a number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D483.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we admit the unmarked version as well,

Page 5303

 1     just in case.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  The un-annotated version will

 3     be Exhibit D484.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can we have 0724, the next one.  5225 [as interpreted].

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Minister, you've confirmed that this 1991 census was never

 9     verified in the Assembly.  We discussed that, didn't we?  Do you agree

10     that that census was never verified and that the 1981 consensus [as

11     interpreted] was considered to be more accurate?

12        A.   We in the police force did use the 1991 census, Mr. President,

13     when we were appointing commanders, chiefs, and other top personnel in

14     the police force.  Now, whether the Assembly admitted this or not, I

15     don't know.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Could we have the next map in the same binder.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, do you have the 65 ter number of the map

19     from map 3?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D225, that's --

21             MR. TIEGER:  It's already D225, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  The transcript said "5225."  Okay.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must have misspoken.  D225.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you agree, Minister, while we're looking at Bosansko Grahovo,

Page 5304

 1     Glamoc -- yes, that's right.  Do you find this map familiar?

 2        A.   This is a map of the ethnic composition of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 3     yes.

 4        Q.   Do you agree that the colour blue goes to the Una River, so that

 5     is part of Bihac, half of Bosanska Krupa, almost all of Bosanski Novi?

 6     If you do remember, could you please draw the separation lines in

 7     relation to this colour?  Perhaps you could use the colour red, since

 8     this is blue.  Do you agree that the front-line was on the Una River?

 9        A.   I know.  I know the front-line was on the Una River, but I can

10     hardly draw the separation lines.

11        Q.   Now, start from the area south of Bihac.  Try to delineate the

12     ethnically Serb areas.

13        A.   In which years?

14        Q.   At the beginning.  However, we lost something at the end, but

15     we'll deal with that later.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Start drawing as it was at the beginning of the war.  Along the

18     Una River, I believe we held all that, and Grahovo as well.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Thank you.  That's the Bosnian Krajina, isn't it, the lower and

21     the upper part?

22        A.   Yes, this covered the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

23        Q.   The area around Doboj -- Trebava and Doboj is Serb majority, and

24     south of Doboj is Ozren?

25        A.   Yes, that is Mountain Ozren.  Population lived from livestock

Page 5305

 1     production, mainly.  [Marks]

 2        Q.   And then Uzice.  Trebava is in the area of Modrica, it's a

 3     concentration of Serbs.  And now the front-line did not include Gradacac,

 4     but it did cover all these Serbian territories.  If you remember where

 5     the front-line was, draw it, please, all the way to Trebinje.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   I'm afraid it's a rather broad stroke.  Can you go back to the

 8     east, to Serb territories?  We didn't even hold all of Zvornik.  The area

 9     north of Zvornik, we didn't hold.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Do you agree, then, that most of Trebinje, all of Ljubinje and

12     part of Stolac, including Berkovici, all of Nevesinje, and a good part of

13     Prenj, looking from below upwards, and then we go back.  Boracko Lake

14     towards Sarajevo, we held all that.  Now, that bit we did not control.

15     You have to go to the right, above Zvornik.  We didn't even hold Teocak,

16     nor the Tursan hill.  We did have Sekovici, though, didn't we?

17        A.   Yes, Sekovici was an absolute Serb majority.

18        Q.   We didn't hold Kalesija, nor this green part of Zvornik.  Sapna,

19     Kovacevic, those were areas where the concentration of Muslims --

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Yes, that's good.  But now we would have to go almost up to

22     Brcko.  There was like a connection of less than 10 kilometres.  Just

23     follow the Serb areas.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Thank you.  And now if you can connect -- Orasje was a Serb area,

Page 5306

 1     and later we controlled Odjak and all of Brod.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   [No interpretation]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Your last statement was not translated.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  We couldn't hear it.  The microphone is either

 6     too far away or switched off.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   May I ask you, Minister, to write today's date and your initials.

 9     And write "LC" or "CL" for "Confrontation Line."

10        A.   [Marks]

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is all very proximate and

12     rough.  We'll have a precise map.

13             Can we save this and upload the same map again?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Before that:  Mr. Mandic, did you delete some part

15     of the line which is near Doboj?  Is it completed or -- I remember you

16     deleted some part of it.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I can mention, Gracanica and

18     Gracac were not under our control.  You should follow the line.  Ozren

19     was purely Serb.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You remember that?

22        A.   [No verbal response]

23        Q.   On this hook below "Ozren," just delineate our territories.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, only when you confirm what Mr. Karadzic

25     is saying -- you just draw, but just draw as far as you know, just not

Page 5307

 1     following the instruction of Mr. Karadzic.  Or if you don't know, you can

 2     say you don't know the confrontation line.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 4        Q.   I just wanted to ask where Gracanica and Gracac are under our

 5     control or not?  Look north of Ozren.

 6        A.   Gracanica and Gracac were not ours.  They always belonged to the

 7     Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   Now, can you adjust this north line above Ozren accordingly?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   All right, it's almost there.  I think you should also erase the

11     line east of Ozren.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

13             Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             Despite the Court's guidance, I'm watching Mr. Mandic's face.

16     He's shrugging and making facial gestures that I think clearly signal

17     some discomfiture with the process.  I think he needs to be -- you've

18     asked him to confirm.  Mr. Karadzic quickly interceded and asked him then

19     to re-mark the map.  I think it's going to be very difficult for you to

20     know what it is the witness knows about the designations he's been

21     instructed to put on the map and what he doesn't, unless some effort is

22     made.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I was observing the same, but I took it to mean that

24     he is not good at drawing.

25             But, Mr. Mandic, could you clarify?  Could you answer to the

Page 5308

 1     observation of Mr. Tieger?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly where these

 3     municipalities in Northern Bosnia are located, and I'm really not

 4     familiar with these frontiers held during the war by Serbs, Muslims, or

 5     Croats.  I know that most of these territories, Krajina and Visoka were

 6     held throughout the war by the Serbs, and the entire eastern part of

 7     Herzegovina, which relies on the Drina River and the Sava River facing

 8     Croatia.  That's all I know.  I'm really very bad at geography and I

 9     can't deal with maps.  I suggest Mr. Karadzic bring an officer here.

10     There's a very good officer, Subotic, in Banja Luka, who can help you

11     with that.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, although this is not precise,

13     I would like to tender this, because it is -- I mean, for what it's

14     worth, Gracac and -- [indiscernible] and Gracac were really not ours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  The marked map will be admitted.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  The annotated map will be Exhibit D485.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am embarrassing

18     myself here, really, with this map, and Muslims and Croats will hold it

19     against me.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   We also lost in the war and we never got back Grahovo, Glamoc,

22     and Drvar, Petrovac, municipalities that were almost 100 per cent Serb,

23     and also Kljuc, which was a majority-Serb town?

24        A.   I know that under the Dayton Accords, the entire High Krajina

25     were given to the federation, whereas before the war, in 1991, and even

Page 5309

 1     today, I believe, this is an area with a majority-Serb population.

 2        Q.   The indictment alleges that I told members of the Parliament

 3     about these municipalities in Eastern Bosnia, that we had grabbed for

 4     ourselves certain municipalities where we were not in the majority.  I'm

 5     trying to say that I was trying to heal thereby the wounds of those MPs

 6     who hailed from these eastern municipalities where we were a majority.

 7        A.   Could you say that again?

 8        Q.   If I say at an Assembly session that we got or we grabbed for

 9     ourselves certain municipalities where we were not the majority, does it

10     correlate with the fact that we had lost certain municipalities where we

11     were almost 100 per cent a majority?

12        A.   I know that at these Assembly sessions, the MPs were insatiable.

13     I believe they had taken half of Serbia and half of Croatia.  It still

14     wouldn't have been enough for them.  But you did try to explain these war

15     strategies, but I don't know anything about it.  I really can't help you,

16     Mr. President.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's okay.  I'll put this

18     question to a politician, then.

19             Can we get the Cutileiro map, 0780, the first draft, which was,

20     in principle, accepted by the Serbs.  0701-0780, or 59 -- marked "59" in

21     the binder.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  19151.  Sorry, maybe

23     there's a -- I don't know if it was heard correctly.  19151 is the one

24     that appears not to be correct.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 5310

 1        Q.   Do you remember that this served Mr. Cutileiro in drawing his own

 2     map?  We were given the entire border at the Una, but this was his draft.

 3     Can you show Podrinje, Bratunac, Vlasenica, Srebrenica, and most of

 4     Zvornik was planned to be part of the Muslim entity, and we accepted

 5     that?

 6        A.   This was the basis of the Cutileiro Plan.  I remember that, and I

 7     knew about this.  But for the Court and for the OTP, I will mark the

 8     municipalities with a majority-Muslim population that the Cutileiro Plan

 9     accorded to the Serbian entity.  That's Vlasenica, Srebrenica, and this

10     bit of Podrinje and Zvornik.  [Marks]

11        Q.   Do you agree that in the original proposal, this was supposed to

12     be part of the Muslim entity, and we accepted that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you agree that our proclamation to these people -- our appeal

15     to them not to fight made sense because it could have gone to their

16     entity, even without any war, or, rather, had there not been a war?

17        A.   Yes.  According to the Sarajevo Agreement, this was to be part of

18     the Muslim entity.  I don't know anything about proclamations.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can I draw your attention to the area of Sarajevo.

20     Pale, Sarajevo proper, and Ilijas, was this marked as an area with

21     prominent Serb majority?  There was only a small part of Sarajevo without

22     a Serb majority?

23        A.   I'll tell you about all the 10 municipalities and their ethnic

24     composition before the war.

25             Han Pijesak, majority Serb; Sokolac, majority Serb; Pale, also.

Page 5311

 1     Novo Sarajevo was majority Serb, and Ilijas.  Majority Muslim

 2     municipalities:  Centar, Stari Grad, Ilidza, Hadzici, and Vogosca.

 3        Q.   We'll bring another map.  Can you just confirm that all the three

 4     parties accepted that the three ethnic entities did not have to have

 5     contiguous territories?

 6        A.   I know, and it was approved by the mediators.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Should Mr. Mandic initial this,

 8     although he didn't make any markings, and then we can tender it?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We'll just admit the clean version of this map.  We

10     don't have to mark it.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D486, Your Honours.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             I have been briefly left without any support.  I would now like

14     to see the ethnic map of Sarajevo.  Just a moment, please.

15             I'm sure you're able to show us the Sarajevo area on the ethnic

16     map and the demarcation lines.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you agree that the municipality of Ilidza, as can be seen

19     here, was rather long and that Hrasnica was the Muslim part of Ilidza,

20     whereas the Serbian part was to the north-west?

21        A.   Indigenous Serbs lived in Ilidza who had land around the

22     River Bosna, whereas Hrasnica was a village or a neighbourhood with the

23     majority Muslim population.  I know this personally because I grew up

24     there.  My parents lived there for more than 20 years.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that Sokolovic Kolonija was built mostly

Page 5312

 1     for people from Sandzak and that it became synonymous with those

 2     buildings erected to attract people from Sandzak to Sarajevo?

 3        A.   I know that it was built on water reservoirs, without any

 4     permission from the town planning authorities, and that it was settled by

 5     mostly people of Muslim ethnicity.

 6        Q.   Do you agree that Sanac, Sokolje, Hrasno Brdo, parts of Buca,

 7     Potok and Bujakov Potok were also illegal settlements built, without any

 8     plan or approval, mostly by people from Sandzak?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Are you familiar with "Vox" magazine?

11        A.   "Vox" magazine was published by an acquaintance of mine from

12     Foca.  I know him well.

13        Q.   Can you tell us his name?

14        A.   Sahinpasic, also known as Saja.  He is a good friend of mine.

15        Q.   Do you know that he was one of the main suppliers of weapons to

16     the Patriotic League?

17        A.   As a real businessman, a trader, yes, he did trade in weapons.

18        Q.   Do you agree that he was a prominent member of the Party of

19     Democratic Action and the deputy of that party?

20        A.   Saja was an associate of Mr. Izetbegovic, a close friend of his,

21     and he was at the top -- among the top leadership of the Party of

22     Democratic Action.

23        Q.   Can you tell us his name and nickname slowly, for the sake of the

24     record?

25        A.   His name is Senad, Saja.

Page 5313

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the name, please.

 2             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, could you repeat the name for the

 4     benefit of us?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sahinpasic, Senad.  Senad is the

 6     first name, also known as Saja.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sahinpasic, and it's all one word.

 8     Sahinpasic is his last name, and Senad is his first name, and S-a-j-a,

 9     Saja, nickname.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   If in "Vox" they announced very soon they would be building

12     Sokolovic Kolonija, how would you interpret this?

13        A.   Sahinpasic liked alarming the Serbs through that newspaper of

14     his.  He liked printing extremist viewpoints, to the detriment of the

15     Serbs.  I had occasion to read his newspaper.

16        Q.   Would you agree that this was a threat to the effect that a

17     second Sokolovic Kolonija would be built and that the place would be

18     settled by Muslims?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's look at the ethnic map.

21             Do you agree that at Ilidza, which you know well, the Serbs

22     controlled the Serbian parts of Ilidza and the Muslims controlled

23     Hrasnica, Sokolovic Kolonija and Butmir?

24        A.   Yes.  It was precisely these neighbourhoods that had a majority

25     Muslim population, Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija and Hrasnica, and they were

Page 5314

 1     contiguous.  Looking towards Mount Igman, to the right, the majority

 2     population was Serbian.  This was the indigenous population.  They were

 3     farmers.  They had held that land for centuries.  The last names were

 4     Djokic --

 5        Q.   Jokic, Krkar [phoen], and so on, yes.  Do you agree, or do you

 6     know, or is there any evidence showing that we had any intention of

 7     taking that part of Ilidza?

 8        A.   To the best of my recollection, at the beginning of the war there

 9     was a problem at Ilidza, because from Sokolovic Kolonija they were

10     constantly launching attacks and firing shells, attacking the central

11     part of Ilidza.  While I was at Lukavica, in Sarajevo, I'm not aware

12     there were ever any plans to enter those territories which had a majority

13     Muslim population.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Is there something here that has not been admitted?  Can this map

16     be admitted or has it already been admitted?  D, it's been admitted.

17             May we now have 1D1969.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   If I tell you, Minister, that this is a view from Mount Hum,

20     would you find this credible?  That's picture number 1.  You lived in

21     Sarajevo, you know it well, so is this a view from Mount Hum?

22        A.   Yes, from the repeater.

23        Q.   Who controlled Hum throughout the war?

24        A.   The Muslim Army.  The BH Army, that is.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5315

 1             May we have picture 5 from this exhibit.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Novo Sarajevo or

 3     New Sarajevo down there, and further on is Lukavica.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Can you indicate -- well, very well.  It's gone now.  We'll do

 6     that later.

 7             Do you agree that this is a view from Mount Hum in the direction

 8     of Mount Trebevic?  So Mount Hum is opposite Mount Trebevic, and Sarajevo

 9     lies in between?

10        A.   This is Hum.  There's the repeat on Trebevic [marks].  And here's

11     the Avaz skyscraper which has been built in Sarajevo.  [Marks]

12        Q.   Can you indicate Grbavica and the Jewish cemetery, if you can see

13     it from here --

14        A.   This is Holiday [marks], this is the Assembly and the government,

15     so the Jewish cemetery should be around here.  [Marks]

16        Q.   Is it to the right of the Assembly of the government?  I'm not

17     sure.

18        A.   Well, Vrbanja Most, the bridge, and then to the left is the

19     Jewish cemetery.  [Marks]

20        Q.   Very well.  Can you mark Trebevic with a T?

21        A.   [Marks].  This is the repeater at Trebevic.

22        Q.   Can you identify Debelo Brdo?  Is it to the right, above these

23     two small circles?  Is that Debelo Brdo?

24        A.   You mean this here?  [Marks]

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 5316

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Very well.  Can you point out Colina Kapa?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   And the area of Grbavica on this picture?

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  That's the area of Grbavica.  Maybe you've gone too

 7     far into Hrasno.  But can you mark Grbavica with a G?

 8        A.   [Marks].  Mr. President, are we talking about Grbavica,

 9     regardless of who held it in the war?

10        Q.   Yes, yes.  Can you mark in blue where we held it, up to what line

11     our territory extended?

12        A.   [Marks]

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have point 17 so that we can

14     see -- yes, yes.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Can you put a date there and your initials, please?

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And can you put "DB" where Debelo Brdo is?

19        A.   [Marks]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll separately admit this marked photo,

21     which is page 5 of this exhibit, separately.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D487, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 17 from this

24     exhibit, picture 17.  Picture 17 from this batch.

25             JUDGE KWON:  There's some technical difficulty.  I suggest to

Page 5317

 1     have a break now, and then after the break it will be sorted out.  Half

 2     an hour.

 3             We'll resume at ten to 11.00.  I should correct.  Five to 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you will have 45 minutes.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Just one quick

 8     housekeeping matter.

 9             We won't be offering any associated exhibits from the Stanisic

10     and Zupljanin case.  We've used all of those that we wished to.  And we

11     also don't have any objection to whichever portions of the transcript

12     that the Prosecutor will seek to add to our submission.

13             Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             MR. TIEGER:  We appreciate that, Your Honour.  We anticipate

16     providing associated exhibits, and I imagine that was contemplated by the

17     Defence as well.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

21             Can we have picture 17 of 1D1969 just so that Mr. Mandic can

22     identify something.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you agree that this again is a view from Hum, but in the

25     direction of the old town, the eastern part of town?

Page 5318

 1        A.   Yes, this is the Breka neighbourhood, and you can also see

 2     Vratnik, yes, the old part of Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   And what we see in the foreground, is that the neighbourhood of

 4     Velesici?

 5        A.   Yes, the houses you can see there, the family houses.

 6        Q.   Can you put a Latin letter V there to indicate Velesici, and can

 7     you also mark Bascarsija and the other parts of the old town that you

 8     recognise?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Yes, that's the old town.  Is this the slope of Mount Kosevo in

11     the direction of Velesici?

12        A.   Yes.  This is Breka [marks], this new settlement here, new

13     neighbourhood.

14        Q.   Yes, mark it as Breka.  And what did you mean by these two

15     letters?

16        A.   "BS" with a diacritic, that's Bascarsija.

17        Q.   Can you mark it with "OC" for "Old City"?

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Can you see where the entrance to the tunnel to Mount Kosevo is

20     from the Velesici side?

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Can you mark, on Trebevic, where Osmice is, if you can't mark in

23     my previous question?

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   What would you say what is the difference between Breka and

Page 5319

 1     Osmice, as the crow flies?

 2        A.   Well, five kilometres.

 3        Q.   Can you put an "O" for "Osmice"?

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Between three and five, not less than three; is that right?

 6        A.   No, no, as the crow flies, but along the road it's seven or eight

 7     kilometres.

 8        Q.   What we see there is that the military hospital -- no, it's the

 9     government building; is that right?

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Can you indicate where the government and the Assembly buildings

12     are?  I think I can see them.

13        A.   Well, the Holiday Inn [indicates], and that's the Assembly

14     building.  [Indicates]

15        Q.   Can you mark them with letters?  Sorry, can you mark the

16     Holiday Inn?

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Yes, very well.  And could you put an "A" for "Assembly," or "G"

19     for "Government"?

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   And if there's anything else you recognise -- do you see where

22     the Jajce Barracks is to the east?

23        A.   It's up there at the entrance to Stari Grad or the Old City.

24     This is the way from Pale to the old part of Sarajevo.  [Marks]

25        Q.   Well, can you put "BJ" for "Barracks Jajce."

Page 5320

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And can you put your initials and the date, please,

 3     on this picture?

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May it be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted separately.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D488, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             1D1970, picture 3, please.

10             I apologise to the interpreters and everybody else.  I'm not very

11     good under time pressure, when I want to show as much as I can.

12             1D1970.  This is it.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you agree that this is a view from the Jajce Barracks?

15        A.   Yes.  This is Bembasa here, the Bembasa swimming pools.

16     [Indicates]

17        Q.   Could you please mark this?  I see the library, the Church of

18     St. Anthony, the sawmill, the cemetery.  Colina Kapa, I think, is on the

19     horizon, and Debelo Brdo, and I've forgotten what the pointed peak is to

20     the right of Debelo Brdo.  But can you tell us all the things you

21     recognise?

22        A.   These are the Bembasa ponds, the entrance to the old part of

23     Sarajevo.  [Marks]

24        Q.   Can you mark it with a "P"?

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 5321

 1        Q.   Yes.  This is one of the tallest buildings, and the library.  Can

 2     you mark it with a "L" for "Library"?

 3        A.   This is the Toma Masaryk skyscraper opposite to

 4     Skenderija [indicating].

 5        Q.   And can you mark skyscraper with an "S.  And the Church of

 6     St. Anthony, where is that?

 7        A.   This is it; right?

 8        Q.   Yes, you can put "S" for "St. Anthony."

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Do you see Debelo Brdo to the left?

11        A.   Yes, this is Debelo Brdo, "DB."  [Marks]

12        Q.   And to the top of the horizon, do you see Colina Kapa?

13        A.   This is the cemetery at Kovaci.  [Marks].

14        Q.   Alifakovac, that's the same thing?

15        A.   Yes.  And Alifakovac is up there, Mr. President.  [Marks]

16        Q.   And the thing you circled, can you mark it with an "A," "AC,"

17     "Alifakovac Cemetery"?

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Can you mark Colina Kapa?  Is that the great Colina Kapa, because

20     there's the lesser Colina Kapa a bit lower down?  Can you just mark it

21     with a "CK "with a diacritic on the C?

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell Their Honours who held the

24     Jajce Barracks throughout that period?

25        A.   The Jajce Barracks was always held by the Muslim forces, the

Page 5322

 1     BH Army.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you put a date and your signature on this map?

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   And when it is admitted, I would like to see picture 7 from this

 5     exhibit.  Is this admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admit.  Picture number 3 of 1D1970 will

 7     be admitted as Exhibit D489.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Minister, who was at Debelo Brdo and who was at Colina Kapa?

10     Throughout the war, who held Colina Kapa and Debelo Brdo?

11        A.   The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Could I have picture number 7.

14             Obviously, the transcript doesn't reflect the Army of Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   So that is what you said; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we have picture 7.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you agree, Minister, that this picture was taken from the same

23     position and that it shows the remainder of the city, the

24     Unis Skyscraper, the military hospital, the government building,

25     Vijecnica town hall, everything else you can identify?

Page 5323

 1        A.   This is Hum [marks].  This is the Hum repeater, and those

 2     photographs that we looked at a moment ago were taken from here.

 3        Q.   Sorry, can we have the letter H there?

 4        A.   And this is the repeater at Hum [marks].  This is the government

 5     building [marks].  These are the Unis Skyscrapers at Marin Dvor.  [Marks]

 6        Q.   Can you place "G" for "Government and "U" for "Unis"?

 7        A.   This is the new Avaz building [marks].

 8        Q.   It didn't exist before the war, right?

 9        A.   Yes, it's a new one.  That's why it's a bit confusing.

10        Q.   Can you identify the military hospital?

11        A.   Here's the military hospital [marks].  Here's the town hall,

12     Vijecnica [marks].  This is the area of the old city, or, rather,

13     Bascarsija, all of it.  [Marks]

14        Q.   "OC," can you place "OC" for "Old City"?  Thank you.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Vijecnica, just put an "L" for "Library."

17        A.   [Marks].  Down here to the left is Miljacka.  Here is

18     Debelo Brdo.  [Marks]

19        Q.   Thank you.

20        A.   This is Mezari, or, rather, the Muslim cemetery, this over here.

21     [Marks]

22        Q.   Thank you.  The river, could you mark it with an arrow and put an

23     "M" there or, "R," rather, for "River"?  Thank you.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Minister, from here and from Hum, can one target practically any

Page 5324

 1     point in town?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I'm not a military expert, really.  You're asking

 3     me things from Mr. Subotic's field, and the man isn't doing a thing in

 4     Banja Luka.

 5        Q.   All right.  I take that into account.  But do you agree that they

 6     are at Colina Kapa, Hum, the Jajce Barracks?

 7        A.   Yes, we have already established that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have the date and your initials?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just for our purpose, what did you write for

11     "Military Hospital"?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "B," the letter B.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you put "M" above that, "Military Hospital"?

15        A.   [Marks]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D490, Your Honours.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D1971, please.

21     Picture 12, please.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Minister, do you agree that this is the view from Mojmilo, facing

24     the south, Dobrinja, et cetera?  Can you identify it for us, actually,

25     what we can see from here?  Do you agree that this is the view from

Page 5325

 1     Mojmilo?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Could you please identify these compounds here?

 4        A.   Hrasnica [marks].  This is the airport [marks] and the

 5     neighbourhood of Butmir to the right.  It can't really be seen properly.

 6     Then there is Mount Igman.  [Marks]

 7        Q.   Bjelasnica is the white thing we can see up here?

 8        A.   Yes, behind Igman.

 9        Q.   Please, can we erase this and can we identify Igman and

10     Bjelasnica?  Actually, we didn't need to erase that.  Could you mark

11     Igman and Bjelasnica separately?

12        A.   This is Igman.  [Marks]

13        Q.   Bjelasnica, please.

14        A.   This is Bjelasnica.  [Marks]

15        Q.   So red "I" is "Igman" and the blue letter "B" is "Bjelasnica"?

16        A.   Yes, that's why it's called Bjelasnica, because it's mostly

17     covered with snow.  You can see that it's covered with snow, even when

18     this picture was taken.  It's spring-time, isn't it?  You can see that it

19     is spring-time and there's snow on Bjelasnica.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For the benefit of the other

21     participants, "bijelo" is white, so Bjelasnica is white.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   So could you mark "B," "Butmir"?

24        A.   [Marks] Hrasnica is at the very foot of Mount Igman.  That's

25     where I lived for 15 years.  This is the airport [marks], and underneath

Page 5326

 1     the airport is Butmir, a neighbourhood with a predominantly Muslim

 2     population.  [Marks]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber who held positions at

 4     Bjelasnica, Igman, and Mojmilo, the viewpoint from which this photograph

 5     was taken?

 6        A.   Throughout the war, it was held by the Army of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina; the Muslims, of course.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  These neighbourhoods, these blocks of flats, can you

 9     identify them for us?

10        A.   For the most part, this is Olimpijsko Naselje, the Olympic

11     neighbourhood, Mojmilo, Vojnicko Polje and Dobrinje.

12        Q.   What about Lukavica; can you discern it up there?

13        A.   This is Lukavica [marks].  Now it's called Eastern Sarajevo.

14        Q.   Can you place the letter "L" there, just an "L," sorry, not "EL."

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Now, these neighbourhoods down here, can you identify them one by

17     one and just mark them?  And please speak into the microphone so that it

18     is reflected in the transcript.

19        A.   This is Vojnicko Polje [marks].  This is Mojmilo [marks].  This

20     is Dobrinja [marks].  This is Dobrinja as well [marks].

21        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please put the date and your initials

22     there?

23        A.   [Marks]

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 5327

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D491, Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can we have picture 23 from here.

 4             It would be instructive if this entire bunch of photographs could

 5     be admitted, because the Trial Chamber could see properly what all of

 6     this is about.

 7             23, please.  23 from the same number, could I please have that.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the last page of this bunch.  It's coming.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Exactly.

10             Is there any hope?  We have it, thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Minister, can you recognise the point where this photograph was

13     taken and what we are looking at?

14        A.   This is the neighbourhood of Alipasino Polje, viewed from

15     Mojmilo, from Milinkladska, but a bit further up towards Vraca.

16        Q.   Can you mark Alipasino Polje for us and also all those

17     neighbourhoods up there in the hills?

18        A.   [Marks].  This is the repeater from Hum.  This is Hum.  This is

19     Alipasino Polje [marks].

20        Q.   Could you please put "AP" there?

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Can you recognise Boljakov Potok, and what else, Brijesce,

23     Buca Potok?  Can you recognise any of that?

24        A.   This is Boljakov Potok, this is Buca Potok.  This is Brijesce

25     down here.  [Marks]

Page 5328

 1        Q.   And Boljakov Potok as well?

 2        A.   This is it further down.

 3        Q.   I see.  And what about Buca?

 4        A.   This is Buca [marks].  This is Hum down here.

 5        Q.   Minister, do you agree that these neighbourhoods are well known

 6     for having been built without any building permits?  Therefore, the

 7     ethnic structure of the population of Sarajevo was changed artificially

 8     because these people moved in from Sandzak?

 9        A.   These neighbourhoods were built up without any building permits

10     or without any plans, and it is mostly people from Serbia who moved in.

11        Q.   Muslims from Serbia; right?

12        A.   Yes, yes, yes, ethnic Muslims.

13        Q.   Brijesce, Buca Potok, Boljakov Potok?

14        A.   Here they are.  Brijesce, Boljakov Potok. [Marks]

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you put the date there and your initials?

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Do you, Minister, that in this neighbourhood several incidents

18     took place and the Serbs are being blamed for that?

19        A.   Could you spell this out in specific terms; before the war?

20     When?  After the multi-party elections?

21        Q.   No, no.  During the war, there are different explosions there in

22     water lines, at sports stadiums, et cetera.  It's a rather

23     densely-populated neighbourhood.  Predominantly Muslims lived there,

24     because Serbs had fled.  Did you hear of different incidents that took

25     place there?

Page 5329

 1        A.   I don't know about that.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can this be admitted?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D492, Your Honours.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Minister, we tried to play this footage.  However, it is barely

 8     audible.  Nevertheless, the OTP succeeded and they managed to get it.

 9             1D2090, could we have that, please.

10             Actually, sorry, can we have Colina Kapa as well.  I'd like to

11     see another photograph.  Can we have 1D1967, please.  Picture 7 from this

12     number, 1D1967.  Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Minister, do you agree that this is the view from Colina Kapa, a

15     view of Sarajevo from Colina Kapa?

16        A.   This is the Hum repeater.  [Marks]

17        Q.   Can you mark that?

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Do you agree that this is the view from the southern side, from

20     the hill of Trebevic, facing the north?

21        A.   I think this is from Osmice, towards Trebevic, right?

22        Q.   Colina Kapa, who was at Colina Kapa throughout the war?

23        A.   Colina Kapa, to the best of my knowledge, was held by the Army of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the road was from Trebevic to Sarajevo and back

25     to Trebevic.

Page 5330

 1        Q.   Can you please mark Velesici, the military hospital, and anything

 2     else you may recognise?

 3        A.   This is the military hospital [marks], and these are Velesici

 4     [marks] behind the military hospital.  This is the military hospital

 5     [indicates].

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Does this look like the view from Colina Kapa to you,

 7     because you are familiar with the area?

 8        A.   This is the view from that road leading to Trebevic, where that

 9     Motel Osmice was, if that's Colina Kapa.

10        Q.   Yes, yes.  Underneath the motel is Colina Kapa?

11        A.   I know where the motel is, so that would be it, then; right?

12        Q.   If you can recognise something else -- well, to the left, to the

13     far left, it's part of a neighbourhood.  If you can recognise anything

14     else, please mark it.  Can you please mark Velesici as well?  I don't

15     think it's recorded.

16        A.   [Marks]  It's hidden by these greenery.  This bit here is

17     Grbavica.  [Marks]

18        Q.   Can you put the date and your initials?

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Can you also see Stari Grad, that is, Bascarsija, from there?

21        A.   This is Stari Grad.  [Marks]

22        Q.   Could you mark "OC"?

23        A.   [Marks]

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             May this be admitted?

Page 5331

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, with his signature and date.  Yes, it was

 2     there, thank you.  It will be admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D493, Your Honour.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we're waiting, can we get

 5     another photograph of Sarajevo, 1D2090.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Minister, this is the transcript of the recording that is

 8     inaudible.

 9             May I have both the Serbian and English versions, and then I'll

10     indicate which passages I want to deal with to see what Mr. Zupljanin

11     said and what I said.

12             And tell us, please, how 50.000 people, the population of

13     Banja Luka, reacted to these words.

14             1D -- that's right, that's the Serbian.  Can we have the English

15     as well.  Thank you.  That's also the Serbian version.  Can we get the

16     second page in Serbian, and I believe in English as well.

17             Do you agree that this "MS" means "Mico Stanisic"?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And he says -- he speaks at a ceremony of the Police Academy?

20        A.   Yes.  This is the Security Services Centre, Banja Luka, the

21     occasion of the Day of the Police Force.

22        Q.   That's the footage that is inaudible.  You are here, and the

23     prime minister, et cetera.  Could you read the passage where it says:

24     "The first wartime conflicts ..."?  In English, it's the passage which

25     begins with the words:  "On the territory of the centre ..."

Page 5332

 1        A.   "On the territory of the centre, the first war conflicts and

 2     destruction were caused by the Croatian armed forces in the bordering

 3     area with the Republic of Croatia.  Innocent casualties, an exodus of

 4     Serbian refugees in Western Slavonia, fear, panic, unrest were the

 5     features of this dead-end situation in the hot August days of 1991.  The

 6     CSB was in a very peculiar situation.

 7             "Being aware of the grave and complex situation in the territory

 8     we cover, and while taking all the measures to ensure that the service

 9     continue to operate in these extraordinary wartime conditions, we were

10     desperately asking the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina to take steps," I suppose, "so that we could peacefully

12     resolve certain problems."

13        Q.   Is this said by Stojan Zupljanin?

14        A.   I can't see it in Serbian.

15        Q.   It says "SZ" on the margin, and the key indicates that it's

16     Stojan Zupljanin?

17        A.   Yes, I can see these letters.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.  I believe it's

19     the next page in Serbian as well.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to read?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But that's not the right page.  The

22     next page in Serbian.  Yes, that should be it.  Let's just see where it

23     is.  It begins with the words:  "I'm really glad ..."

24             Could we get the bottom of that page back just to connect the

25     beginning and the end of this passage.

Page 5333

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I'm really glad that I can

 2     emphasise here that most of the authorised officers, over 85 per cent of

 3     them, signed the solemn declaration, including a large number ..."

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page in Serbian.

 5             [In English] This part:  "I'm glad that I can point out ..."

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "... including a great number of

 7     professionals of other ethnicities that remain to work in the CSB, and

 8     they are among us now."

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you remember that footage?  There were 50.000 people there,

11     the people of Banja Luka, of all ethnicities, and they all welcomed the

12     fact that there was still quite a few policemen, Croats and Muslims,

13     still working in the CSB?

14        A.   I know that.  There were members of other ethnic groups working

15     in the CSB Banja Luka, but I can't see -- it says in the text that there

16     was an applause.

17        Q.   Yes.  This is the transcript of this footage prepared by the OTP.

18             Now, can we get the next page to see what Karadzic says, "RK."

19     010608, and in English.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Now, after:  "The UN ..."

22        A.   "To our great regret, and contrary to our will, the war has been

23     imposed on us by part of the leadership of the two ethnic communities in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina."

25        Q.   [In English]  Down:  "We regret that ..."

Page 5334

 1             [Interpretation] Will you please continue reading this passage

 2     and the next page in English?

 3        A.   [No interpretation]

 4        Q.   "That part of them which," and then something illegible

 5     "agreement"?

 6        A.   "Mutual extermination, killing and torture have been imposed on

 7     us.  We are trying to participate in that as little as possible.  We

 8     sometimes do not respond to fire for all of an hour, and we respond only

 9     when we are threatened."

10        Q.   [In English] "The situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina ..."

11             [Interpretation] The middle paragraph.  Next page, please.

12             But there's one passage before that:  "We decided ..." or:  "We

13     have decided ..."

14        A.   You mean:  "We, in Bosnia-Herzegovina ..."?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We need to see the top of the

16     Serbian page, the one we had before.  The Serbian page we had before, but

17     the top of the page.

18             [In English] "We in Bosnia and Herzegovina are not in

19     conflict ..."

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "We decided to organise our own

21     state."

22             Is that it?

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   "We decided on unilateral cease-fires."

25             Let's see where that is in English.  This is not the right page,

Page 5335

 1     not even in Serbian.

 2             Can we get the penultimate page in Serbian, page 5 of 6.  It says

 3     "5 of 14," but it's actually 5 of 7.  I hope we'll find it in English.

 4             Can we see the top of the Serbian page and the top of the English

 5     page.  I probably bolded this text and then I ruined the page numbering.

 6     Can we see the next Serbian page -- sorry, the previous Serbian page.

 7             "We decided to declare unilateral ..."

 8             We read that bit.  "We in Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."

 9        A.   "We in Bosnia-Herzegovina are not in conflict with Croats and

10     Muslims.  We are in conflict with militant leaderships which would like

11     to impose their own state on us, a state in which they would dominate,

12     and we would be --"

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page in Serbian, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "... a state in which we would be

15     second-class citizens, and that would be accompanying people to the

16     leading people or nation, which was clearly communicated to us during

17     some rallies.  However, Serbian people do not ask to be leaders, but will

18     not agree to be second-rate citizens.  This is the reason why we decided

19     to organise our own state unit in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20             [No interpretation]

21             "We will never live again in someone else's state because we know

22     what that meant before.  All alien states were extremely intolerant and

23     genocidal to us --"

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters haven't finished reading this

25     passage.

Page 5336

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   In that footage of that gathering, was it the 13th of May?

 3        A.   Yes, after that Assembly session.

 4        Q.   Do you agree that this conciliatory tone of Stojan Zupljanin and

 5     Mico Stanisic was welcomed by the citizens?  Were they met with an

 6     ovation?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             May this be admitted?  I would also tender the video-clip.  It

10     can't be heard here in the courtroom, but it is obviously audible under

11     certain conditions, since somebody transcribed it.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Unless it is objected to, we'll admit it.  But don't

13     forget to tender that video-clip in CD to the Chamber as well.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D494.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

16        Q.   I believe this is the last question, Minister.  Allow me to

17     remind you of the issues we have dealt in this examination.

18             After the elections, you were both a witness and a participant to

19     the establishment of the first democratic government.  You were able to

20     see how the parties behaved.  You know that the Serbian Democratic Party

21     delegated power to experts, and there is a difference -- a distinction

22     between the terms "taking over power" and "assuming power," because

23     "assuming power" means assuming power that you have won, whereas "taking

24     over" implies taking it from someone else?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5337

 1        Q.   Do you remember all our attempts and all the attempts of you, in

 2     the police force, to restore constitutionality and lawfulness, and all

 3     the attempts of the Serbian elite to avoid the war?

 4        A.   I believe during my evidence in the Stanisic case and here, I

 5     stated that in great detail and tried to explain to the Court everything

 6     that happened during 1992, especially in the police, and in 1992, when I

 7     was the minister of justice in Republika Srpska.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, can we get 65 ter 06147, the

 9     last exhibit.  In English, it's page 107, and in Serbian -- in Serbian,

10     it's page 107, and in English it's 103.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  I'm not going to -- well, I just want to -- it's a

13     form of anticipatory objection.  I just wondered what happened to the

14     concept of last question.  I think we need to -- we're clearly past the

15     time allotted, and I believe that the Chamber --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Given the technical difficulties we are having, so

17     we decided to give him five minutes more to fit into that --

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, for the record, this document has

19     been admitted as Exhibit D87.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   May I draw your attention to the passage where it says:  "Believe

23     me ..."  Do you agree that as of mid-October, the constitutional system

24     in Bosnia-Herzegovina had collapsed completely?

25        A.   There were many unconstitutional and illegal events and

Page 5338

 1     activities going on.  Whether the system had collapsed, I can't say, but

 2     it's a fact that as time went by, there were more and more violations of

 3     the Constitution and the laws of the Socialist Republic of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   And last question:  I wish to draw your attention to where it

 6     says:  "Believe me ...," and so on.  This is my speech of the 25th of

 7     January, my last attempt to have a joint referendum held.  And what it

 8     says here, is this what was foreseen and one didn't have to be a prophet

 9     to foresee it?

10             Let me just find where it is in English.  In English, it's:

11     "Believe me ..."

12             Could you please read this?  It's the seventh or eighth row?

13        A.   "Believe me, we have no influence over war or peace.  Situations

14     are very often out of control, and very often the situation is out of

15     control.  Gentlemen, all of you, including me, can picture now what would

16     happen if, God forbid, a riot started now or an inter-ethnic and

17     religious war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, we can draw that on the board.

18     Serbs would flee from Muslim areas, Muslims from Serb areas, and Croats

19     would go to their areas, and there would be shooting along the way.

20     There would be destruction of towns, there would be bloodshed, and we

21     would find ourselves exactly where we are now; Serbs in the Serbian

22     areas, Muslims in the Muslim areas, Croats in Croatian areas, fully

23     homogeneous.  And what would we have to do?  We would again have to sit

24     down and put three signatures on our agreement, because without all three

25     signatures, there is no solution for Bosnia-Herzegovina."

Page 5339

 1        Q.   Do you agree, Minister, that unfortunately all these fears and

 2     apprehensions of mine, which I put forward before the Joint Assembly on

 3     the 25th of January, 1992, came true?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you think anything would have changed had we accepted a

 6     unitary Bosnia?  Had the political leadership accepted a unitary Bosnia,

 7     would the people have followed us or would the same events have happened?

 8        A.   I don't know that, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   And my last question:  Do you agree that when the government was

10     set up in Republika Srpska and centralisation carried out, and the

11     government became more effective, the crime rate dropped, and that 1992

12     was the worst year in that respect, and that afterwards the crime rate

13     dropped dramatically?

14        A.   I fully agree with that.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Minister.  I believe I

16     have exhausted my time.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

18             Just one question from me, Mr. Mandic.

19                           Questioned by the Court:

20             JUDGE KWON:  I forgot to bring the transcript two or three days

21     ago, and I tried to locate that from the e-court, but I couldn't.  But at

22     one point in time while you were answering the questions from

23     Mr. Karadzic, you testified to the effect that even the military

24     disobeyed his order, or his orders were not respected by the military.

25     Do you remember having said that?

Page 5340

 1        A.   I'm familiar with that, Your Honours, I'm aware of that, that

 2     General Ratko Mladic did not respect the orders issued by the president

 3     of Republika Srpska or any member of the Presidency for a long period of

 4     time in the course of the war.  I know that there was talk of replacing

 5     the general, dismissing him, but it was not possible at that point in

 6     time because there would have been a mutiny by the Command of the

 7     Republika Srpska.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give us some more concrete examples about

 9     the disobedience by the military, including General Mladic?

10        A.   In 1993, when Mr. Ninkovic was the minister of defence, and he

11     hailed from Doboj, the general ordered that about a dozen ministers and

12     members of the government administration be arrested.  For ten days, they

13     had to feed pigs in Han Pijesak, which was held by the army.

14     President Karadzic and all the other leaders made efforts to have these

15     people released, but the general paid no attention to them.  And it was

16     only when he decided that they should be released that they were

17     released.  So the minister of defence and some other ministers had to do

18     labour on a military farm, on the personal orders of General Mladic, and

19     this was contrary to all customs and the standpoint of the president, and

20     the Presidency, and other members of the government.  I find this event

21     very telling.  It illustrates the self-will of General Ratko Mladic, who

22     did not respect the civilian authorities.

23             JUDGE KWON:  How come General Mladic was able to retain his

24     position, despite all this disobedience?

25        A.   At the very beginning, and that's my personal opinion,

Page 5341

 1     Your Honours, the officers commanding the Army of Republika Srpska came

 2     from the former JNA, and they were suspicious of the civilian

 3     authorities, who did not come from the socialist system, but who emerged

 4     in the multi-party elections, who won the elections, and they were

 5     representatives of the various ethnic groups.  So from the very

 6     beginning, there was mistrust and lack of co-operation, and no one was

 7     able to replace or dismiss General Ratko Mladic in the Republika Srpska

 8     at that time because there would have been a military coup, a military

 9     take-over, and he would have abolished all the civilian institutions.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

11             That concludes your evidence.  Thank you very much for your

12     coming to the Tribunal to give it, despite all the difficulties.  Now you

13     are free to go.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and thank

15     you for your patience.

16             I also wish to thank Mr. Tieger and his associates.

17             And, Mr. President, thank you, also, and good luck.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to continue, Mr. Tieger, Ms. Sutherland,

20     with the next witness, or do you wish to take a break now?

21             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, we're certainly happy to continue.  But

22     we will need some time to adjust the technical aspects, log off and log

23     back on, so the Court needs to keep that in mind.

24             JUDGE KWON:  But if we break, we can't go until 2.30.  Yes, so --

25             MR. TIEGER:  It's up to you, Your Honour.  We'll just take a few

Page 5342

 1     moments.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.  Then we'll bring in the next

 3     witness, Mr. Mandilovic.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 5             The Prosecution calls Milan Mandilovic.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

 7             He will be the 13th Prosecution witness, given that Mr. Mandic

 8     was a Court witness.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, Mr. Mandilovic.

11             If you could kindly take the solemn declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  MILAN MANDILOVIC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Please take a seat.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

19                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland:

20        Q.   Good afternoon.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   Please state your name for the Chamber.

23        A.   My name is Milan Mandilovic.

24        Q.   You testified before the ICTY in the Galic case on the 7th and

25     10th of December, 2001, in the --

Page 5343

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   Dragomir Milosevic case on the 17th and 18th of January, 2007?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   And in the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Perisic case on the 4th and

 5     5th of March, 2009?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   Subsequent to that, a statement was taken from you which

 8     amalgamated evidence from your previous testimony and statements, with

 9     some additional observations as well as references to certain documents?

10        A.   That's correct.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  With Your Honour's leave, I'll proceed with the

12     requirements of Rule 92 ter.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:

15        Q.   On the 24th of February, 2010, you signed an amalgamated

16     statement; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Registrar, I would ask that 65 ter 22166 be

19     brought up onto the screen.

20        Q.   Is that your signature at the bottom of page 1 of the document

21     you can see in front of you on the screen?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you sign each page of the statement?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we please go to page 28.

Page 5344

 1        Q.   That is your signature under the witness acknowledgment?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   Have you again had an opportunity to review the statement that

 4     you signed on the 24th of February, 2010, and the exhibits that are

 5     referred to in that statement?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could just go to page 3 of the document,

 8     please.

 9        Q.   In paragraph 6, there needs to be a correction to -- the word

10     "Galic" should read "Dragomir Milosevic."  And you can see in footnote 9

11     that it's the Dragomir Milosevic case which is footnoted, and not the

12     Galic case?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Doctor, do you wish to make two clarifications to your statement?

15     The first was in respect to the outbreak of the war.

16             And if we could go to page 4, please, Mr. Registrar.

17             In paragraph 18, you describe the situations in April and May.

18     You then state that:

19             "Artillery shelling of the city during that period of time was

20     far smaller than it was later on."

21             What period are you referring to with respect to this artillery

22     shelling?

23        A.   I was referring to April.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to page 5, please, Mr. Registrar.

25        Q.   The second clarification relates to the events which are

Page 5345

 1     described in paragraphs 21 to 23 of the statement.  Do the events as

 2     described occur in the sequences set out in paragraphs 21 and then 22 and

 3     then 23?

 4        A.   Just a moment.  Let me read the paragraphs.

 5             Yes, for the most part, yes.

 6        Q.   In paragraphs 22 and 23, you describe two incidents.  Which

 7     incident occurred first in time on the 2nd of May?

 8        A.   I can speak about these incidents only as a citizen of the city

 9     of Sarajevo, not as a member of the hospital staff, because I left the

10     hospital on the morning of the 2nd of May.  Later on, the media wrote

11     about this event extensively, and it was broadcast on the electronic

12     media as well.  I came to understand the seriousness of the events which

13     occurred in the morning and late afternoon of the 2nd of May.  The first

14     incident was the one at Skenderija.  After that came the incident with

15     the president of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Izetbegovic.

16        Q.   And the incident in relation to the 2nd Military District, did

17     that occur before the incident at Skenderija, which is outlined in

18     paragraph 22?

19        A.   The incident with the 2nd Military District, which happened on

20     Skenderija Street, was after this.  It was the day after, because these

21     things happened on the 2nd of May when, in the afternoon,

22     President Izetbegovic was stopped at Butmir Airport in Sarajevo, and on

23     the following day there was an exchange between President Izetbegovic and

24     the Command of the 2nd Military District.

25        Q.   And do you know what street that occurred on, that conflict?

Page 5346

 1        A.   Are you referring to the incident that occurred in relation to

 2     the column of the 2nd Military District?

 3        Q.   No.  We can see from paragraph 23 that you say that that incident

 4     took place in Vojvode Stepe Street?

 5        A.   Oh, that refers to the first incident, the one that happened on

 6     the 2nd of May.  That did take place in that street which we referred to

 7     in Sarajevo as "on the bank."  The second incident was a day later in

 8     Skenderija Street, when units of the 2nd Military District were

 9     withdrawing.

10        Q.   So we have the event that's described in paragraph 23 as

11     happening first in time on the 2nd of May, and then we have the

12     incident --

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   -- which is described in paragraph 22 happening second in time on

15     the 2nd of May, and the event which is described in paragraph 21

16     happening the following day, on the 3rd of May; is that correct?  Do I

17     understand you well?

18        A.   That's correct, yes, that's correct.

19        Q.   So with that correction to paragraph 6 of your statement and the

20     two clarifications that we have just made now in relation to paragraph 18

21     and paragraphs 21 to 23, do you confirm that your amalgamated statement

22     accurately reflects your evidence and that you would provide the same

23     answers to questions if you were asked, under oath, about these topics

24     today?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5347

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. President, at this time I seek to have the

 2     amalgamated witness statement, 65 ter 22166, admitted into evidence.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1217, Your Honours.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, in relation to a public version of

 6     this witness statement, the Prosecution intends to redact from pages 24

 7     to 26 references to those documents which will be admitted under seal;

 8     that is, the associated exhibits listed in Confidential Appendix B to the

 9     Rule 92 ter notification which was filed, which will be discussed at the

10     completion of the evidence-in-chief.  That is, in the table, it is

11     documents numbered 8 to 15 and 18 to 20 of paragraph 118.

12             JUDGE KWON:  It is my understanding that you are seeking to put

13     under seal 12 documents, but I wanted to clarify what reasons are behind

14     it.  So we'll come to that later, when you deal with it.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Let's proceed.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  With Your Honour's leave, I'll now read a brief

18     statement -- a brief summary of the witness's evidence.

19             Dr. Mandilovic was born in Serbia.  In 1975, he qualified as a

20     doctor of medicine, graduating from the Faculty of Medicine in Sarajevo.

21     In 1986, he became an ear, nose, and throat specialist.

22             After becoming a medical doctor in 1975, he completed compulsory

23     military service in the Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA.  Between 1978

24     and 1982, he was a major at the Sarajevo Garrison Infirmary.  From 1982,

25     he worked at the Military Hospital in Sarajevo, which was renamed the

Page 5348

 1     State Hospital in May 1992, and remained working there throughout the

 2     course of the war, 1992 to 1995.  He continues to work at the hospital,

 3     which is now named the Sarajevo General Hospital.

 4             Dr. Mandilovic describes the conditions of work at the hospital

 5     during the war.  Day-to-day life was terrible.  They experienced

 6     shelling, small-arms fire, water shortages, drug and oxygen shortages,

 7     food shortages, and power cuts.  Dr. Mandilovic describes how, in the

 8     winter of 1992 to 1993, the supply of fuel, electricity, and water was

 9     greatly reduced, which were all vital for the normal functioning of the

10     hospital.  Conditions were also very hard from late 1993 into early 1994.

11             Dr. Mandilovic describes how the hospital building was directly

12     hit on several occasions with certain types of projectiles so that the

13     facade of the hospital, the window frames and glass, were all damaged and

14     destroyed.  The southern side of the hospital received the most damage.

15     The hospital received thousands of hits from small-arms fire, and

16     window-panes on the building were shattered.  A number of people in the

17     hospital were hit by sniper fire during the war, and a number of hospital

18     patients and staff were wounded in the hospital.

19             Dr. Mandilovic describes how the shelling was so intense that the

20     wards had to be set up in the basement.  During certain periods of heavy

21     shelling, all the patients would be taken down to the ground floor.

22     Shells landed on several occasions whilst casualties were arriving at the

23     hospital.

24             During the course of the war, Dr. Mandilovic constantly treated

25     casualties both from sniping and from mortar projectiles, and their

Page 5349

 1     dispersive effects.  He performed surgery on wounded patients on a daily

 2     basis from September 1992 through 1994.  Dr. Mandilovic describes how the

 3     shelling created obstacles to the work of the hospital, both in physical

 4     and psychological terms, and how immensely stressful it was working and

 5     operating on patients under these conditions.  He and his colleagues

 6     experienced constant fear as they went about their work in the hospital,

 7     and patients suffered from re-traumatisation.

 8             Dr. Mandilovic describes how the attacks on the civilians were

 9     designed to instill terror in the civilian population, and by denying the

10     hospital the supplies necessary and by making life more difficult by

11     shelling the hospital, the terror effect on the population was increased.

12             Dr. Mandilovic was on duty in the State Hospital on the 28th of

13     August, 1995, and treated casualties from scheduled shelling incident

14     G19, known as the Markale II incident.  Some 40 people were brought into

15     the State hospital, most of them civilians.  It was clear to the witness

16     that the injuries of the casualties were caused by shell shrapnel.

17             Dr. Mandilovic authenticates selected hospital records relating

18     to scheduled sniping incidents F4, F11, F14, and F15, and scheduled

19     shelling incidents G4, G6, G7, G8, G9, G10, G13, and G19.

20             That concludes the brief summary of the witness's evidence.

21        Q.   Dr. Mandilovic, I now will ask you a few questions in relation to

22     the contents of your statement.

23             You described in your statement the shelling and sniping of the

24     hospital.

25             And for the Court and the accused, this is paragraphs 42 to 58.

Page 5350

 1             You said that the hospital building was subject to sniper fire

 2     and was shelled on several occasions.  From which direction was the

 3     hospital hit by shells and sniper fire?  Direction or directions.

 4        A.   Those were two questions.  I have to make a small correction.

 5             The hospital was shelled for 44 months throughout the conflict.

 6     I have to note that the intensity of the shelling varied in different

 7     time-periods; that it was physically hit the most from the southern side,

 8     the hospital, I mean.  However, it was also hit from the northern side

 9     and also from the eastern side.  In a word, that means that the hospital

10     was hit from all sides over those 44 months of war, but the shelling that

11     was the most intensive was on the southern side.

12        Q.   And from the southern side of the hospital, what is -- what is

13     directly in front of the hospital?

14        A.   The hospital had the misfortune of -- I can say that quite freely

15     now -- of being on the very front-line.  Miljacka is right across

16     Marin Dvor, and then after the Miljacka River are the first slopes of

17     Trebevic, where the Jewish cemetery is.  The Jewish cemetery was a target

18     of the Bosnian Serb soldiers throughout the war.  They controlled the

19     area of Marin Dvor and the area of the hospital, therefore, from there

20     throughout the war.  The Jewish cemetery is very close to the hospital,

21     and, therefore, I can state quite freely that this is one of the few

22     hospitals of that size, importance, and capacity that was ever on a

23     front-line throughout the history of warfare.

24        Q.   Were there any other areas from where the shelling was coming

25     from?

Page 5351

 1        A.   Yes, there were.  I said a few moments ago that we were hit from

 2     the north as well -- from the east.

 3        Q.   In relation to the southern side -- was there any other areas

 4     where the shelling was coming from in relation to the southern side of

 5     the hospital?

 6        A.   No, no, that wouldn't be possible.  It came from the south.  Now,

 7     "the south" is a broad notion.  It is the south-west and the south-east.

 8     However, you could not be hit on the southern side if the shelling came

 9     from the north.  That is pure physics, it is the laws of physics.

10        Q.   I'm sorry, Dr. Mandilovic, I haven't been clear.

11             In relation to shells that were landing on the southern side, you

12     mentioned already the Jewish cemetery.  Were there any other areas,

13     across the river where the Jewish cemetery was or elsewhere, where shells

14     were being projected from?

15        A.   I firmly believe that.  I firmly believe that, because that

16     entire side was under the control of the Bosnian Serb forces.  It's the

17     area of Vraca and Grbavica, in addition to the Jewish cemetery.  And

18     immediately above the Jewish cemetery was Trebevic, which was also under

19     the control of the Bosnian Serb forces.  So throughout the war, we

20     referred to the Jewish cemetery as a very prominent location, close to

21     Marin Dvor and the hospital.  However, in addition to that, there were

22     other active points that probably had some heavy weaponry as well.

23             If I may, I'd like to be very specific and to correct something.

24             We should not believe that the Jewish cemetery was the only point

25     from which the hospital and the rest of town were targeted.  It was just

Page 5352

 1     the closest point to the separation line.

 2        Q.   I wish to now focus on hospital medical records from the

 3     State Hospital and another health institution.

 4             Dr. Mandilovic, you stated in paragraph 116 of your statement

 5     that you had occasion to see medical records from the Sarajevo University

 6     Clinic Centre and the Forensic Institute of the Faculty of Medicine in

 7     Sarajevo, which is the same institution of the Kosevo Hospital; is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'd now like you to look at a couple of

11     documents.  And I would ask that we go into private session, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5353











11  Pages 5353-5355 redacted. Private session.















Page 5356

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll have a break for half an hour.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland, please continue.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Dr. Mandilovic, can you describe for the Court the working

13     conditions in the hospital just briefly?  Because you do -- they are

14     contained throughout your statement, but I would just like to you briefly

15     describe for the Chamber what it was like.

16        A.   Generally speaking, throughout the war, conditions were very

17     difficult.  We had a constant shortage of medicine, medical material, and

18     energy, power as well, water, and there was no gas either.  So all these

19     elements that are very important for the normal functioning of a hospital

20     were at reduced level.  We had to be very careful about using the

21     resources we had.  We had to save our resources, and the number of

22     wounded and ill persons was on the rise all the time.  Therefore, the

23     situation was very difficult.  However, I have to say that thanks to our

24     management, the hospital that was on the front-line worked 'round the

25     clock, 24 hours a day, over 44 months.  Not at a single point in time did

Page 5357

 1     the hospital grind to a halt.  It was always in a position to help

 2     wounded and ill persons.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all of the other

 4     microphones please be switched off.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We fought with all these

 6     difficulties.  We created new doctrines, as it were.  We were compelled

 7     to do so.  However, as we look at our results today, we see that we were

 8     absolutely successful.

 9             We did receive certain assistance from humanitarian

10     organisations, from the Red Cross, but in conditions of war, you never

11     get enough.

12        Q.   Can you describe the day-to-day life --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:

15        Q.   Can you describe what day-to-day life was like in Sarajevo

16     throughout the war?

17        A.   I can, yes.  Life in the hospital, working in the hospital, it

18     ran along parallel lines with life in town, itself, and that was

19     manifested in the following.  Ordinary citizens of Sarajevo were the

20     victims of terror every day, terror inflicted by heavy weaponry from the

21     hills surrounding Sarajevo.  Also, they did not have vital things; water,

22     electricity, gas, and food, of course.  All of that seriously threatened

23     the life of the population.  Also, it impaired their health.  In view of

24     how long it went on, we have many people in Sarajevo who were there

25     throughout the war and who suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder,

Page 5358

 1     not only members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but all citizens of

 2     Sarajevo, who can say that they were together with the soldiers at the

 3     front-line.  That would be a proper statement.

 4        Q.   Besides the post-traumatic stress disorder that you have just

 5     mentioned, what else did you observe in relation to the mental and

 6     emotional effects that the shelling and sniping had on the civilian

 7     population in Sarajevo?

 8        A.   Maybe I'm not the most competent person for taking part in this

 9     kind of a discussion, but it is certain that the citizens who spent the

10     war in Sarajevo were affected by it.  You can see that through their

11     nervousness, the rush they seemed to be in all the time.  In traffic, you

12     see how easily they flare up.  You see that this is not exactly normal

13     behaviour.  When you go to other towns in the region, the population

14     seems quite different and they communicate with other people in a

15     different way, and amongst themselves, too.  Obviously, this long siege

16     of 44 months has certain repercussions, not only in terms of the physical

17     condition of the citizens of Sarajevo, but also their psychological

18     structure.

19        Q.   What psychological or physical injuries do you suffer from as a

20     result of the shelling and sniping campaign which occurred in Sarajevo

21     from 1992 to 1995?

22        A.   I personally think that I have not been affected, but somebody

23     else would have to say.  People always think of themselves as being

24     completely healthy.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Dr. Mandilovic.

Page 5359

 1             That completes my examination-in-chief, Your Honour.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, do you wish to deal now with the

 4     associated exhibits?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go into private session briefly.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5360











11  Page 5360 redacted. Private session.















Page 5361

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             One final question is:  One of the associated exhibits is a

 5     video-clip, the number of which is 65 ter -- the 65 ter number of which

 6     is 40292?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  It is of a duration of two hours, six minutes, but

 9     my understanding is the witness only referred to the 50-second excerpt

10     from the video.  So only that part will be admitted.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  And then you will provide only that part.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, with the clip, Your Honour, that's correct.

14     Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any other observation, Mr. Robinson?

16             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President, we don't have any objections to

17     these.

18             JUDGE KWON:  So we will admit all the associated exhibits, as

19     discussed.  Thank you.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Well, Mr. Karadzic, it's now your witness.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Dr. Mandilovic.

Page 5362

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   I will try to put as few questions as possible, or, rather, as

 3     many questions as possible which can be answered by a yes or no.

 4             Did we know each other before the war?

 5        A.   I didn't know you.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Was your wife Aida -- is your wife, Aida, a dentist

 7     in the health centre?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You are an active-duty soldier, are you not?

10        A.   I was.

11        Q.   Sorry, I'm waiting for the translation.

12             What was your rank?

13        A.   The last rank I held was that of major.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandilovic, you probably must have heard this,

15     but we are hearing the interpreter's interpretation.  Because both of you

16     are speaking the same language, please put a pause.  Thank you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   And when did your active military service end, and how?

20        A.   On the 2nd of May, 1992.

21        Q.   Thank you.  For how long did you work in the Military Hospital in

22     Sarajevo?

23        A.   For 10 years.

24        Q.   And how did your active service in the military end?

25        A.   I left the hospital on the morning of the 2nd of May.

Page 5363

 1        Q.   And did your active military service end by the simple act of

 2     leaving the hospital?

 3        A.   Well, when it comes to the former JNA, yes.

 4        Q.   Why did you leave the Military Hospital on the 2nd of May?

 5        A.   I left the Military Hospital because the former JNA was no longer

 6     the army of Yugoslavia, it was not the army of the Yugoslav nation's

 7     nationalities.  Practically 1991, when Slovenia seceded, after that

 8     Croatia and then Bosnia-Herzegovina, it stopped being the JNA.  It

 9     completely changed its ideology, it completely changed its doctrine, it

10     completely changed its command staff, and it completely changed its

11     insignia.

12        Q.   When did it change its insignia?

13        A.   In 1991 or 1992.  I don't know exactly.

14        Q.   Are you sure of that?

15        A.   Absolutely.

16        Q.   That it changed its insignia before you left the

17     Military Hospital?

18        A.   Absolutely, yes.  You know what the insignia and flags of the JNA

19     were, and you know that they changed.

20        Q.   I only asked whether it happened before you left the hospital.

21        A.   Yes, the answer is absolutely yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  We'll show that in the course of the proceedings.

23             Why did you leave the Military Hospital?

24        A.   Because I disagreed with the situation as it existed.

25             JUDGE KWON:  The question was asked and answered.

Page 5364

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, there are two

 2     aspects of this.  One is leaving the army, and the other one is leaving

 3     the Military Hospital.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was one and the same thing.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Doctor, in one place you wrote that you returned in order to work

 7     because you couldn't abandon your patients, and yet you say that it's one

 8     and the same now?

 9        A.   I returned to the hospital on the day when it changed its name

10     and its purpose, which was after the 10th of May, 1992.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Who was the owner of the Military Hospital in

12     Sarajevo?

13        A.   Up to the 10th of May, 1992, it was part of the JNA, or the

14     former JNA.  From the point of time when Yugoslavia disintegrated, it

15     became the former JNA.

16        Q.   And when did it stop being the property of the JNA, and how?

17        A.   It stopped being the property of the former JNA on the 10th of

18     May, 1992, when those people who did not want to remain left, and the

19     hospital then changed its name and its purpose.

20        Q.   Did it also change its owner?  Does ownership of property change

21     in this way?

22        A.   That's a legal issue.  But there's one thing you should know.  As

23     of March, Bosnia-Herzegovina was an independent state.  Its flag was

24     flown before the UN on the East River.  It was recognised.  So from that

25     point on, the JNA was on foreign territory.

Page 5365

 1        Q.   But that is also a legal issue, but my first question referred to

 2     the elementary property rights.  But you feel that on the 10th of May,

 3     with the entry of the Green Berets and the Patriotic League, legal

 4     ownership of the hospital ceased?

 5        A.   Mr. Karadzic, you are trying to involve me in legal questions.  I

 6     cannot answer those.  But there's another question I can answer, and that

 7     is that:  On the 10th of May, it was not the Patriotic League and the

 8     Green Berets that entered the hospital, but the regular

 9     Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I can tell you that the

10     take-over of the Military Hospital was negotiated by the minister of the

11     interior directly, so we can't talk about Green Berets here.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I didn't object earlier when Mr. Karadzic said

15     that the witness stated at some point that the reason why he didn't want

16     to leave the hospital was because of his patients, because I knew that it

17     was in paragraph 25.  However, in future, when Mr. Karadzic puts

18     something to the witness that he says, I would like him to provide the

19     source of either the transcript or the statement so that the witness has

20     some idea.  For example, when he says:

21             "But you feel on the 10th of May, with the entry of the

22     Green Berets and the Patriotic League, legal ownership of the hospital

23     ceased?"

24             I don't think the witness ever said that, so I would like him to

25     take me to the page.  Thank you.

Page 5366

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

 2             Bearing that in mind, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             But the witness just said a little while ago that the

 5     Military Hospital ceased being military property of the JNA on the 10th

 6     of May, so that's what I was referring to.  I don't need to refer to

 7     something he said previously.

 8             Let me just gather my thoughts.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Mandilovic, are you saying that the Green Berets and the

11     Patriotic League were not the regular armed units of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12        A.   I don't know about those relations.  In my view, the regular

13     armed forces were the Territorial Defence and the MUP, the reserve force

14     of the MUP.

15        Q.   Do you accept that the Military Hospital, starting in April or

16     even in late March, was completely encircled by the Green Berets?

17        A.   I can only partially accept what you say.  I said that in my

18     statement, I noticed that in April there were groups of men in the

19     vicinity of the hospital who had not been there before, but they were not

20     armed and they did not prevent anyone from going into or out of the

21     hospital.  They did not check anyone's identity papers.  It was a very

22     soft, barely noticeable encirclement.  I might even not have noticed it

23     had those not been times when tensions were high and people were under

24     stress, so they observed things like that.  What forces those were, I

25     cannot say.

Page 5367

 1        Q.   Were they wearing mostly civilian clothes?

 2        A.   Mostly, yes.

 3        Q.   Can you tell us who fired shots on the Military Hospital before

 4     the 10th of May?

 5        A.   I couldn't say.  On the 2nd of March [as interpreted], I left the

 6     hospital, so I couldn't say, really.

 7        Q.   And who fired shots at the hospital in April, before the 2nd of

 8     May?

 9        A.   If there was any shooting, I didn't notice it, really.  I really

10     didn't.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry to interrupt, Your Honour, but I think

12     there's a mistake in the transcript.  It says:

13             "On the 2nd of March, I left the hospital."

14             I think that's supposed to be "2nd of May."

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2nd of May.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             May we now have 1D2104.  1D2104.  1D2104, this is not it.  No,

20     that's not the document.  "SAO34061" is the number on the document.

21             Can we put this on the ELMO until we see what's wrong with the

22     numbers?

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Up to the 2nd of May, you were in the hospital, the

25     Military Hospital; is that right?

Page 5368

 1        A.   Yes, I was.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, we have the document.

 3     Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Do we have a translation, Your Honour?  I can't

 6     read B/C/S.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think we have it.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe we don't have a

 9     translation yet.  I'm not sure.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Doctor, may I ask you to identify this document?

12        A.   I have never seen this document before.

13        Q.   Well, of course, you couldn't have seen it because it's strictly

14     confidential.  But who issued this document?

15        A.   What it says here is "The Command of the 2nd Military District,

16     Operations Duty Team, Strictly Confidential Number," and so on.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you read out the part that's been highlighted:

18     "On the territory ..."

19        A.   Only what's highlighted?

20        Q.   Yes.

21        A.   "On the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there are still

22     ongoing activities on the arming and strengthening of forces of the

23     Territorial Defence.  There are more and more open provocations and

24     attacks on members of the JNA and facilities.

25             "Paramilitary units have been especially active in Sarajevo,

Page 5369

 1     where there are open conflicts and settling of accounts, and there have

 2     been attacks on the Military Hospital in Sarajevo and setting up of

 3     barricades all over the city, with a view to preventing movement."

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that there were provocations and attacks

 5     on members of the JNA and its facilities?  This is dated the 21st of

 6     April, so by that date, these things had already started?

 7        A.   I believe there were provocations.  I can believe that because

 8     there were very many military facilities and the barracks in Sarajevo.

 9     There was a big military academy and so on, so that it's possible that

10     there were provocations.  But --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Doctor.  I think we have the English

12     translation.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we put it on the ELMO?

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Reid will e-mail it to the Defence and they

16     can upload the document into e-court.  And they can put it on the ELMO.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Doctor, while we are waiting:  Did you have a neuropsychology

20     ward in the Military Hospital?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What floor was it on?

23        A.   The third and fourth floors of the right block, the block near

24     the railway station.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5370

 1             Can we now have page 2.  Just let everybody see the front page

 2     first.  What we read out is the second half of the section entitled "The

 3     Enemy."

 4             Now, can we have page 2, page 2 of the Serbian version, in

 5     e-court, please.  Yes.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   May I ask you to read where it says:  "In the town, throughout

 8     the day ..."  And in the English version, it's -- I think it's the

 9     passage beginning with:  "The fighting has been going on all day ..."

10     Can you read the second paragraph from the top, please?

11        A.   "At 0655 hours, the Sarajevo Military Hospital was hit by

12     a mortar shell.  The dining-room on the fourth floor of the

13     Neuropsychiatry Ward was hit."

14        Q.   Please continue.

15        A.   I'm reading slowly for the sake of the interpreters:

16             "There was no casualties; only material damage.  At 735 hours in

17     the morning, the Military Hospital was hit again by two stray bullets,

18     which broke the windows in one of the hospital rooms.  One patient was

19     cut by broken glass.  In addition to that, the paramilitary formations

20     have been laying siege to the Sarajevo Military Hospital all day long,

21     and an attack on it is to be expected."

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we see page 4 in the Serbian language, please, so that the

24     witness can see the signature and the source.

25             [In English] In English, you can put the last page, please.

Page 5371

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Is this the usual stamp of receipt?

 3        A.   Yes, yes, the usual one.  I don't know the colonel in question,

 4     but the form is typical.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Doctor, how come you don't know about this shelling

 6     and this shell that fell into the Neuropsychiatry Ward on the fourth

 7     floor?

 8        A.   I really don't know about it.  I worked far away from there.  I

 9     worked on the 12th floor of the main building, so I really don't know

10     about this.  I'm not aware of this.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12        A.   However, may I say something else, may I continue?

13        Q.   Of course.

14        A.   I disagree with this statement.  I absolutely disagree with this

15     statement that the hospital was surrounded by some patriotic forces and

16     that they were awaiting the attack on the hospital.  I repeat, once

17     again, people normally walked in, walked out.  There were no major

18     movements there.  Anyone could leave the hospital whenever they wanted

19     to.  There were no special restrictions imposed.  I think that this is an

20     exaggerated report.  It's a bit exaggerated.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Are you trying to say, Doctor, that the strictly

22     confidential report of the Command of the 2nd Military District to the

23     General Staff of Yugoslavia was a false one for some reason?

24        A.   I'm not saying it was false.  I just said it was exaggerated.

25     That's for sure.  I'm talking about my impressions in the said period,

Page 5372

 1     and I cannot deny what was the case.  There was evident freedom of

 2     movement; no dilemma about that.

 3        Q.   Are you trying to say, Doctor, that your impression is more

 4     accurate than the assessment of the Command of the 2nd Military District

 5     in relation to the security of its facilities?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Dr. Mandilovic:  Mr. Tieger.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.  Apart from being asked and answered,

 8     Your Honour, it's argumentative.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I agree.  Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can this document be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Unless it is objected to, we'll admit it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D495, Your Honours.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Your Honour.  Wouldn't this normally be

15     MFI'd?  Do we have the translation --

16             JUDGE KWON:  We were offered the translation.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Page 61.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   On page 61, you said that in -- no, no, page 61, today's

21     transcript.

22             You said that in Dobrovoljacka Street, an exchange had taken

23     place, the president of the Presidency, Izetbegovic, and the Command of

24     the 2nd Military District.  Did that happen by accident?

25        A.   By accident.  That was not an exchange at all.

Page 5373

 1        Q.   Can you tell us what it was that actually happened?

 2        A.   What happened is what everybody knows about, that this convoy of

 3     the 2nd Military District was moving down Dobrovoljacka Street, and

 4     President Izetbegovic was in one of the APCs.  There was supposed to be

 5     an exchange.  President Izetbegovic was supposed to go to the Presidency,

 6     and General Kukanjac was supposed to go to the west, to Lukavica.  That

 7     was the deal, as far as I can remember.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  So that was the agreement that was reached in the

 9     presence of General MacKenzie or, rather, the UN?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   When Mr. Izetbegovic, at Skenderija, turned towards the

12     Presidency, what happened to the rest of the convoy that hadn't left?

13        A.   I don't know exactly what happened because I wasn't present, you

14     know.  I just know what all other citizens of Sarajevo know from the

15     media.

16        Q.   Are you referring to the citizens of Eastern Sarajevo as well or

17     are you referring only to this other part?

18        A.   I mean all the citizens who followed the media at the time.

19        Q.   As an officer, as a member of that army at that point in time,

20     can you tell us what it was that happened?  The Trial Chamber doesn't

21     know.  A lot of things go without saying for the two of us because we are

22     from there, but the Trial Chamber doesn't know about a great many things

23     that haven't been presented to them yet.

24        A.   As far as I can remember, this convoy was cut off and there was a

25     skirmish of sorts, and a number of members of the former JNA were killed.

Page 5374

 1     That is what is known with regard to that day.  That was presented in

 2     public.  It was in all the media, it was on TV.  I think that that is the

 3     core of the matter.

 4        Q.   Were a number of soldiers and officers killed, and were others

 5     taken prisoner?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, there were some deaths in that

 7     operation.  Also, some members of the former JNA were taken prisoner.

 8        Q.   Is that an incident that Ejub Ganic, a member of the Presidency,

 9     was accused of?  According to those criminal charges, he was in charge of

10     that attack, and is he not in Great Britain now, awaiting extradition?

11        A.   That's what the media say, but --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Move on to your next topic, Mr. Karadzic.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right.

14        Q.   You said that on the 2nd of May, a day before that, there were

15     attacks and there were casualties.  Am I right when I say that a lot

16     before the 2nd of May, there were attacks by the Green Berets at the

17     Command of the 2nd Military District in Bistrik?

18        A.   It is hard to say whether it was the Green Berets or somebody

19     else, but there were tensions.  I was not present there, but, again,

20     people talked and the media reported about this.  I remember that.

21        Q.   Do you agree that there were attacks and that there were deaths?

22        A.   I don't know about deaths.

23        Q.   Do you agree that on the 1st and 2nd of May, the JNA Centre,

24     Dom Una, that was a cultural centre and so on, was it not under a

25     blockade of the Green Berets?

Page 5375

 1        A.   Units of the Territorial Defence answered -- entered the JNA

 2     Centre.  How, I don't know.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that at one point in time,

 4     representatives of the JNA came to the Military Hospital, one unit came.

 5     Do you agree that this was the protective regiment that had come to guard

 6     the Military Hospital, not to observe the area?

 7        A.   It is correct.  I said that on several occasions.  Sometime

 8     toward the end of April, about 20 members of the former JNA came.  They

 9     were withdrawing from Zagreb, from Croatia.  These young men,

10     specifically, were at Zagreb Airport, Pleso, providing security there.

11     They came to our institution, accompanied by an officer and an NCO.  They

12     were deployed on the 12th floor, on the eastern and western balcony, and

13     some of them were close to the gate.  It was hard to say what their

14     proper function was.  If it was for the sake of protection, there were

15     too few of them.  If they were observers, then that was quite proper.  It

16     is hard for me to say what their function was, actually.

17        Q.   Do you agree that the orders they received were to assist the

18     team at the JNA Centre and that they went there in an ambulance and two

19     Pinzgauers or something like that, open vehicles, as it were?

20        A.   That's correct.  I did not see that, but again, I heard people

21     talk about it and I saw it on TV, yes.  Those were the men, the young

22     men, who were led by their officers.  They left the hospital compound

23     where they were parked and they went to town.  I really don't know what

24     their intention was or what their function was.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that at the bridge on the Miljacka, on

Page 5376

 1     the one side is Skenderija and on the other side is the Presidency, is it

 2     correct that they were attacked there and that both they and their

 3     vehicles burned?  We have photographs to prove that.  Do you remember

 4     that?

 5        A.   Of course.  These photographs were reported in the media.  I

 6     remember that very well.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct -- actually, I'd like to -- well, just

 8     a moment, please.

 9             I don't know if the other side and the Trial Chamber will agree

10     that we admit a statement -- a witness statement given before the police

11     of Republika Srpska about these incidents, or should I simply quote from

12     that document and ask the witness for his position?

13             JUDGE KWON:  You can put the statement to the witness.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I'm going to put it

15     to the witness.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   This is a statement made by Dr. Tausan.  Do you know

18     Dr. Tomislav Tausan?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In what capacity?

21        A.   He was the director of the Military Hospital in Sarajevo up until

22     the 10th of May, 1992.

23        Q.   You knew him personally; right?

24        A.   Of course.

25        Q.   You addressed him on the 2nd of May, and you said that you would

Page 5377

 1     leave the JNA.  And he was not opposed to that.  It was a proper

 2     conversation.

 3        A.   Actually, I talked to him earlier on.  Dr. Tausan was very

 4     co-operative in that point of time.  Whoever wanted to leave the hospital

 5     had his absolute approval.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  He says in his statement that already from the 5th of

 7     April onwards, from that big rally that was held before the Assembly, he

 8     saw masses of participants in the rally from the neighbouring buildings,

 9     and he said that members of Juka Prazina's unit opened fire and that the

10     gun-shots reached the Military Hospital as well.  He says:

11             "From that day, Muslims fired at facilities in the

12     Military Hospital from time to time, so the command sent a group of

13     soldiers to help provide security for the hospital.  And I remember that

14     there was a total of 26 soldiers who were providing security.  One of the

15     stronger sniper attacks came from the Unis building.  So within the

16     compound of the hospital, no one dared move about."

17             Do you know where these Unis buildings are?

18        A.   I know where the Unis buildings are, of course I do.  They are

19     close to the hospital.  However, I don't know how come Dr. Tausan has

20     this information that these were Juka Prazina's units.  It could have

21     been any unit.  It could have been absolutely any other unit in that

22     chaos that prevailed in town.  I don't know how come he is so sure that

23     it was Juka Prazina.

24        Q.   Do you agree that the headquarters of a particular unit were in

25     that building, and that gun-fire came from these Unis skyscrapers, and

Page 5378

 1     that the target was even the compound of the Military Hospital, as your

 2     director says?

 3        A.   That may have been the case, but perhaps that was after the 2nd

 4     of May, when I was no longer in that hospital.  However, as far as I can

 5     remember, no one was hurt.

 6        Q.   This is what it says here:

 7             "The first more serious attack against the Military Hospital was

 8     on the 6th of April, 1992.  That is when over 1.000 Muslims moved towards

 9     the hospital from the police building.  However, when they saw that the

10     security detail of the hospital would offer resistance, they gave up."

11             Afterwards, he says:

12             "There was a sniper from a Magribija mosque that was operating

13     all the time."

14             Do you know where that mosque is?

15        A.   First I wish to respond to your first question, which is actually

16     a statement, not a question.

17             There is a reference to 1.000 Muslim men.  Do you think that 26

18     men who had come from Pleso Airport can really defend a hospital from

19     1.000 men?  That's ridiculous.

20             And of course I know where the mosque is.  It's below the

21     hospital.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland, did you have something?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was just going to object to the

24     compound question:

25             "Do you agree that the headquarters of a particular unit were in

Page 5379

 1     that building, and that the gun-fire came from that building, and that

 2     the target was even the compound ..."

 3             It's three questions all rolled into one, so I would just ask

 4     Dr. Karadzic if he could ask single questions, please.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.  You understand the

 6     intervention of Ms. Sutherland.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand.  Thank you.

 8     Dr. Mandilovic knows what stuffed cabbage is on our national menu.  You

 9     fold a lot of things into one leaf of cabbage.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Anyway, whether a group of 1.000 disorganised and untrained

12     soldiers could be deterred by 26 trained and equipped soldiers is a

13     different matter, but let me read on:

14             "One of the fiercest attacks on the Military Hospital was on the

15     26th of April, but thankfully without any losses."

16             Do you remember that sniper attack at the Military Hospital the

17     26th of April?

18        A.   No, I don't remember.  You have to understand that in Sarajevo,

19     throughout April, and especially by night, there were bursts of gun-fire,

20     automatic and single shots, all the time, but you could never tell where

21     it was directed.  So it could have happened, but I don't know.

22        Q.   When you say you only heard the sound, you couldn't tell the

23     direction, but could you tell where it was coming from?

24        A.   No, I don't know.  I really don't know.  At that time, I was not

25     in a position to be targeted by anyone.  On the floor where I was

Page 5380

 1     working, there was no damage.  I don't know.

 2        Q.   Then he goes on to say:

 3             "In one of the worst attacks on the Military Hospital on the 3rd

 4     of May, two patients were wounded.  They notified the UNPROFOR and

 5     complained about the situation."

 6             But by that time, you had already left?

 7        A.   I had.

 8        Q.   However, when you returned, were you informed about this?

 9        A.   I don't remember that anyone told me about that.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us, based on what you said on page 63

11     of today's transcript, and later also, that there was no electricity,

12     water, gas, and many other things, but when there was electricity, water,

13     and gas, and other supplies, where did these supplies come from?

14        A.   From the city infrastructure.

15        Q.   And when you speak about Sarajevo and the citizens of Sarajevo,

16     is that meant to include the Serb citizens of Sarajevo, both those under

17     the control of Muslim authorities and those in Grbavica, under Serb

18     control, and in Lukavica, Vraca, and other areas?

19        A.   I absolutely include all the citizens of Sarajevo.  I don't

20     divide it in my mind.

21        Q.   And do you agree that all these traumas and all the hardships in

22     Sarajevo also were suffered by the Serbs?

23        A.   In areas controlled by the Bosnian Serbs, the citizens

24     experienced limited hardships.  You mustn't forget that for 44 months,

25     the city was besieged.  Everything was in short supply, and the citizens

Page 5381

 1     of Sarajevo lived from one day to another.

 2        Q.   But is it the case that there were around 300.000 Muslims in that

 3     part of Sarajevo?

 4        A.   I really can't say; not because I don't want to say before this

 5     Court, but because I don't really know.

 6        Q.   Do you agree that all this population, regardless of their

 7     affiliation, received all their water from wells in the Serb territory,

 8     Ilidza and other sources?

 9        A.   Naturally.  That goes without saying.  That's the physical order

10     of things.  Water comes from elevations downwards.

11        Q.   And before this tunnel was opened, most of the power supply came

12     from Vogosca and through other Serb territories?

13        A.   I agree with only one thing, Mr. Karadzic.  Everything that came

14     from the territory controlled by Bosnian Serbs was insufficient and hard

15     to come by.

16        Q.   But it was hard to come by because of whom?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   When my learned friend, Ms. Sutherland, said that you mentioned

19     the Jewish cemetery as a source of fire, and then you said that entire

20     side was under Serb control, you said, I firmly believe, and you also

21     said, Probably.  From what part of the Jewish cemetery did the gun-fire

22     come from, from the west or the east?

23        A.   I don't know from which side, but it certainly came from the

24     Jewish cemetery, among other positions.

25        Q.   Do you agree that from one side, from the west side -- on the

Page 5382

 1     west side of the Jewish cemetery, there were Serbs, and on the east side,

 2     the territory of the cemetery, itself, was no-man's land?

 3        A.   I wasn't the tactical commander in that area.  What you're

 4     telling me now is something I didn't know before.

 5        Q.   But if you had known that on the border of the Jewish cemetery

 6     facing the old town, there were Muslims, how would you then have

 7     identified the source of fire?  Now when I tell you that this is a fact,

 8     what would you say?  Who was firing, Serbs or Muslims?

 9        A.   In our minds, there was no question who was firing.

10        Q.   You mean those were Serbs?

11        A.   Those were the military forces of Bosnian Serbs.

12        Q.   How do you know that?

13        A.   We know because we followed -- we watched where the fire was

14     coming from.  You see, Sarajevo -- and the honourable Court maybe doesn't

15     know this, but Sarajevo is laid out in a very peculiar way.  It's in a --

16     lies in a depression.  It's surrounded by hills.  The diametre from north

17     to south is very small, and it is elongated along the east-west line.

18     And the part of Sarajevo where the hospital is is such that the distance

19     between the hospital and the positions held by Bosnian Serbs is very

20     small, so you could hear the shot fired on the hill, and after a few

21     seconds you would hear the explosion on the target where the shell

22     landed.

23             I'm sorry.  In one of my statements, I even said that

24     approximately the Jewish cemetery is about 400 metres away from the

25     hospital, as the crow flies, of course, so good observers had absolutely

Page 5383

 1     no trouble discerning where the fire was coming from.

 2        Q.   And what would have been the interests of Serbs to fire at the

 3     Military Hospital?

 4        A.   There could be more than one interest.  The first and main

 5     purpose was to destabilise the whole city, to destabilise and destroy all

 6     the vital functions of the city.  Health-care is an important function

 7     that significantly affects the morale of people, and I believe that is

 8     one of the main reasons for the permanent fire in the attempts to stop

 9     the hospital from operating.

10        Q.   And how do you know that?

11        A.   How do I know what?

12        Q.   What you've just said.  How do you know about these Serbian

13     purposes and objectives for firing on the Military Hospital?

14        A.   What else could it be?  Why did you keep the city of Sarajevo for

15     44 months in this horrible siege?  If that was not your purpose, you

16     would have let the city of Sarajevo live normally, you would have allowed

17     it to communicate with the outside world.  You surrounded the city, held

18    it under 44 -- for 44 months under fierce fire in terror for that purpose,

19     and the hospital was a vital part of the city life.

20        Q.   Doctor, please, would you only tell us about things you know.

21     Who then fired on the 10th of May -- up to the 10th of May?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

23             Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I was following that exchange closely, so I think

25     that's an unfair criticism.  Dr. Karadzic asked -- he solicited the

Page 5384

 1     answer.  The witness provided it.  He then asked, Well, how do you know?

 2     The witness explained.  The witness is clearly answered the questions he

 3     has been asked.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I fully agree.  The Chamber agrees with you.

 5             Mr. Karadzic.  Let's continue.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Who was then opening fire on the Military Hospital before the

 8     10th of May?  Who, for instance, on the 2nd of May started an attack at

 9     the Military Hospital?  Were those joint units of the

10     Territorial Defence, the BH, the Patriotic League, Green Berets,

11     infantry, weapons, snipers, and all the other available assets?

12        A.   I can't answer that question.  You know that from the morning of

13     the 2nd of May, I was not in the hospital.

14        Q.   Did you hear about this attack?

15        A.   The 2nd of May was a very important day in the history of the

16     city of Sarajevo, and a very important day in the conflict, itself.  So

17     that attack, if it happened, it was overshadowed by much larger events.

18        Q.   Do you know and were you informed that on the 3rd of May, there

19     was fire on the Military Hospital from the building of the Assembly of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, with a Browning, rockets, and an anti-aircraft gun,

21     and the seventh and eighth floors of the hospital were hit?

22        A.   I don't know about that.  The Assembly building was held by the

23     Territorial Defence, and they certainly didn't shoot at a building that

24     would eventually end up in their hands.  I don't believe that, but it's

25     possible.

Page 5385

 1        Q.   Let's leave aside belief or disbelief.

 2        A.   I have to say "I believe," because I wasn't there, I didn't see,

 3     so I have to make a reservation to whatever I say.

 4        Q.   Let's go back to what I originally asked.

 5             If a shell was targeting a military hospital, or a round from an

 6     infantry weapon, if it's coming from the south side, from the hills, that

 7     means to you that the Serbs are shooting?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And when you came back, was there any damage on the

10     Military Hospital, on the facade, or inside, in the Psychiatric Ward,

11     et cetera, that you could see when you came back on the 10th of May?

12        A.   Minor damage, absolutely minor damage.

13        Q.   Do you know where Debelo Brdo is, Debelo Hill?

14        A.   I don't know exactly.  I think it's south of the hospital.  I

15     couldn't tell you precisely.

16        Q.   And who controlled Debelo Brdo?  Whose forces were there?

17        A.   I really don't know.

18        Q.   If somebody's shooting from that hill, Debelo Brdo, at the

19     hospital, what would you conclude?

20        A.   I can't say, because I don't know where Debelo Brdo is.

21        Q.   And if someone is shooting from the Jewish cemetery, how do you

22     know whether it's from the western or the eastern edge of the Jewish

23     cemetery?

24        A.   I cannot distinguish.

25        Q.   Why do you then blame it on the Serbs, when it could have been

Page 5386

 1     the Muslims equally?

 2        A.   I don't understand the logic.  Why would the Muslims shoot at

 3     their own territory?  It's very illogical.  That's one.  And, second,

 4     that begs the issue where the Muslim side would have taken the weapons

 5     and the ammunition.  Where would they have taken heavy weaponry?

 6        Q.   Do you mean to tell me, as a major, that the Muslim side, in the

 7     east of Sarajevo, had no tanks, no Howitzers, no recoilless guns, no

 8     rocket-launchers, no heavy weapons?

 9        A.   Heavy weapons, I did not see.  They had light weapons that I

10     could see in very small amounts.

11        Q.   That you could see?

12        A.   Of course.

13        Q.   You referred to mental and emotional consequences of the

14     44-month-long war against Sarajevo.  What is your psychiatric training,

15     actually?

16        A.   At the level of a general practitioner.  But if you read that

17     transcript carefully, I said at the beginning that I'm not an expert in

18     the field and that I'm only stating my impressions as a human being with

19     a small import of medical training.  I qualified that statement very

20     carefully.

21        Q.   I can't find it now, but did you mention that there were many

22     injuries from hand-grenades in people who came to see you?

23        A.   I never, never mentioned hand-grenades.  I only mentioned mortar

24     shells.

25        Q.   You say:

Page 5387

 1             [In English] "... a number of casualties started to arrive.  They

 2     were mainly civilians."

 3             [Interpretation] That's what you said in the Galic case.  But

 4     then I suppose it should have been mentioned in the Milosevic case.  But

 5     it says:

 6             "Galic, December 2001, page 1075, lines 4 through 6."

 7             How did you know who was civilian and who was a soldier?  Because

 8     you said, yourself, that many people did not have uniforms and fought in

 9     their own clothes.

10        A.   The way we knew was because the first ID cards were then issued

11     for members of the Territorial Defence, and the injured would come,

12     accompanied by medical personnel or their own friends, and we would write

13     down their names, their age, and their affiliation, if any, to a group.

14        Q.   Do you agree that Abdulah Nakas, on the 10th of May, left the

15     Military Hospital and went to Sokolac with the JNA?

16        A.   That is erroneous information, it's mis-information.  I saw, from

17     the previous documents, that you have excellent intelligence, so I'm

18     surprised someone told you that.  Dr. Nakas attended a military exercise

19     in March with the units of the former JNA, but after that he came back to

20     the hospital very quickly.  He was in the hospital, and he participated

21     actively in the hand-over of the hospital.

22        Q.   Are you referring to Bakir or Abdulah Nakas?

23        A.   They were both there.

24        Q.   So you say he did not leave the Military Hospital with the JNA?

25        A.   You are getting the time mixed up.  I'm referring to May.  In

Page 5388

 1     May, Dr. Abdulah Nakas was in the hospital and didn't leave it with the

 2     remains of the former JNA.  So you have the wrong information there,

 3     completely wrong.  Dr. Nakas, I remember it was March when he attended a

 4     military exercise, some military manoeuvres.

 5        Q.   Doctor, how far from the Military Hospital is the Catholic Church

 6     at Marin Dvor?

 7        A.   The Catholic Church?  It's perhaps 200 or 300 metres, as the crow

 8     flies, more or less.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  On Monday, we will look at some maps and photographs,

10     but do you know that the Green Berets placed -- or, rather, located their

11     logistics base next to the Catholic Church at Marin Dvor?

12        A.   I'm not aware of that.

13        Q.   You mentioned that the Military Hospital was shot at from the

14     north.  Who could have fired shots at the Military Hospital from the

15     north?

16        A.   I did say that, and you can see the damage to this day.  There

17     were some shells which landed from the north side.  I've been saying all

18     the time that the city of Sarajevo was surrounded on all sides, so that

19     on the north side, projectiles were fired from the positions of the

20     Bosnian Serbs and hit the hospital, the facade, the yard.

21        Q.   You said that these shells might have been fired from Poljine,

22     and that between Poljine and the Military Hospital, there were no

23     weapons; is that correct?

24        A.   Poljine is an area in the northern part of the city of Sarajevo.

25     It was under the control of the Bosnian Serbs.  That area is quite

Page 5389

 1     suitable for the deployment of artillery pieces, so I thought that the

 2     shells had arrived from there.  But, of course, I cannot verify that.  I

 3     wasn't there at the time, but projectiles did come from the north side.

 4        Q.   Do you exclude the possibility that between Poljine and the

 5     Military Hospital at Kosevsko Brdo, Ciglana, Crni Vrh, there were

 6     installations and firing positions of the Muslim Army?

 7        A.   When you say "installations," that sounds like something very

 8     sophisticated.  I think that the forces of the Territorial Defence never

 9     had artillery pieces requiring installations, especially not at the

10     beginning of the war.  So I really don't think that they were the ones

11     firing on the hospital.  They didn't have the weapons to do that, nor

12     would it have been in their interest.

13        Q.   Well, that's another question, Doctor.  My first question is:  At

14     Kosevsko Brdo, which is right behind the Military Hospital, behind

15     Crni Vrh, was there a position of the Muslim Army, a staff, mortars, a

16     tank in a tunnel, and so on; yes or no?

17        A.   I'm not aware of that, but you should ask UNPROFOR for that

18     information and the European Observers.  They would be the ones to tell

19     you that.  I really can't.

20        Q.   We'll look at the pictures tomorrow [as interpreted], but is

21     Kosevsko Brdo and the tunnel and Ciglane, are these much closer to the

22     Military Hospital than Poljine is?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   Is Crni Vrh right behind the hospital, in the direction of the

25     north?

Page 5390

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me what the Military Hospital was hit

 3     with and when?

 4        A.   The State Hospital was hit from all sorts of artillery pieces in

 5     the course of the war; infantry weapons and artillery pieces.

 6        Q.   Well, you're a major.  What artillery pieces, and when?

 7        A.   Well, I was not at the firing positions, but I'm sure they were

 8     80- or 120-millimetre mortars, anti-aircraft machine-guns and

 9     anti-aircraft guns.  As regards infantry weapons, we needn't even mention

10     those, because the artillery pieces were much worse.  And this happened

11     from May 1992 until the beginning of the negotiations in Dayton, and even

12     during the negotiations in Dayton there were certain breaches of the

13     cease-fire.  So throughout the time when Sarajevo was surrounded.

14        Q.   Doctor, are you saying that anti-aircraft machine-guns, and

15     anti-aircraft guns, and mortars are artillery pieces?

16        A.   No, I didn't say that anti-aircraft machine-guns and guns are,

17     but mortars are, as are cannons, Howitzers, and other artillery pieces.

18        Q.   Well, what was the damage on the hospital from this heavy

19     artillery?

20        A.   The damage was enormous.  You can see that on the pictures,

21     especially the southern facade of the hospital.  It wasn't just the

22     facade that was damaged, but the rooms inside.  The entire south side was

23     completely unusable.

24        Q.   On all the floors?

25        A.   Yes, on all the floors.  You can see that on the photographs.  I

Page 5391

 1     looked at the photographs when testifying previously before the Tribunal,

 2     but I have to say I'm not really happy with them.  These are photographs

 3     taken in 1993, showing damage, but I wish you had photographs from 1995

 4     so the Court could see the extent of the damage then.

 5        Q.   Was Dr. Bakir Nakas wrong, then, when he said that the first

 6     seven floors were safe because they were protected by the surrounding

 7     buildings, while you said there was no protection?  Which of you two is

 8     right?  He said the first seven floors were safe, while you say that none

 9     of the floors were safe.

10        A.   Dr. Bakir Nakas couldn't have said anything like that.  He was

11     our chief manager in the war.  He deserves a lot of credit for the

12     existence and work of the hospital.  He couldn't have said anything like

13     that.  He toured the hospital every day and saw the effects of the

14     shelling, so I have no doubt that -- he couldn't have said that.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We'll stop there.

16             Before we conclude, there's one matter to deal with in private

17     session.

18             Shall we go into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5392

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We will rise for today.  We'll resume on Monday,

 5     1.30.

 6             Is it correct that we'll continue with this witness, or --

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour, I think that was the projection.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  So probably you must have heard from the Victims and

 9     Witnesses Section, Dr. Mandilovic, until your cross-examination is over,

10     you are not supposed to discuss your evidence with anybody else.  I hope

11     you have a refreshing and good, nice weekend.

12             I'll see you all on Monday at 1.30.

13             I have to -- I'd like to thank all the staff members who kindly

14     agreed to sit at 1.30 on Monday.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.32 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day of July,

18                           2010, at 1.30 p.m.