Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5393

 1                           Monday, 19 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 1.33 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon to everybody.

 7             Judge Baird cannot be with us during the first session, due to

 8     his official engagement in another Chamber.  I believe he will join us

 9     from the second session.  So we'll be sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis

10     during this first session.

11             Ms. Sutherland, I was informed that you have something to raise

12     before we begin today.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             On Friday, Mr. Karadzic, during cross-examination, took the

15     witness -- or put a proposition of another witness to Dr. Mandilovic, and

16     I have looked through that particular witness's prior testimonies and a

17     number of documents and wasn't able to find the proposition that

18     Mr. Karadzic was putting to this witness.

19             I would ask, in future, to be given a page number of the source

20     of the assertion being put so that we can quickly check that.  I didn't

21     have the transcript of that other witness with me in the courtroom on

22     Friday, and checked it subsequently.  And as I said, if we could have a

23     page reference number, that would be very helpful.  And as I said, I also

24     was not able to find that assertion or that proposition that was put to

25     the witness in any of the witness's testimony that I was able to check.

Page 5394

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

 2             I believe Mr. Karadzic received that notice already, so I would

 3     like him to bear that in mind in the future cross-examination.

 4             Very well.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 5                           WITNESS:  MILAN MANDILOVIC [Resumed]

 6                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             I am sorry.  I just need to have a look at this and see what this

 9     relates to.

10             Good afternoon to all.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Good afternoon, Dr. Mandilovic.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   I hope that you understand my need to spell things out as

16     precisely as possible and to establish what is a rumour and what is

17     uncontested knowledge.

18             Let me ask you, by the way:  Did you talk to anyone about this

19     over the weekend?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Telephone with the old country?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Very well.  Did you have a scholarship from the military, or did

24     you get a job with the military after you graduated?

25        A.   I did not receive a scholarship during my schooling from the

Page 5395

 1     military.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  On the first page of your statement, you said -- that

 3     is, your statement dated the 11th of January (as interpreted), 2000, that

 4     the JNA was a professional military organisation that was well organised,

 5     and so on and so forth.

 6        A.   I do agree with that.

 7        Q.   Do you agree that that the soldiers were conscripts rather than

 8     professionals?

 9        A.   Soldiers were recruited, they were conscripts, but the officers

10     were professionals.

11        Q.   Thank you.  On page 2 of that statement, you said that it was

12     difficult to make a decision, and that, in fact, your departure from the

13     unit was desertion.  Do you continue to believe that?

14        A.   No, that is not my position.  This was an informal conversation

15     that was later used in my statement.  That was stated hypothetically.  I

16     have been saying all the time that it was the former JNA.

17        Q.   Would you agree with me if I were to tell you that the Yugoslav

18     People's Army changed its composition in the following way:  Officers who

19     were Slovenes and Croats, and later on the others, simply left it?

20        A.   They left it because the states of Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia,

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina, seceded from Yugoslavia and created their own armies.

22        Q.   Do you agree that many of these officers left the army before

23     these countries attained independence?

24        A.   That is possible, but I do not have any knowledge to that effect.

25        Q.   On page 2 of that statement, you say:

Page 5396

 1             "Hypothetically speaking, it would be possible that this may have

 2     been execution on the spot.  However, I must add that I am not aware of

 3     any specific examples, so this was my opinion, and it is based on my

 4     experience from the JNA."

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the

 6     document.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You're talking about the VRS?

 9        A.   No, we're talking about the JNA.  We talked about the

10     establishment of the Yugoslav People's Army, not the former Yugoslav

11     Army, rather, the Yugoslav People's Army, when Yugoslavia was a

12     comprehensive state.  We were talking about the Rules of Service.  We

13     were speaking hypothetically about the forms of murder.  We were talking

14     about high treason, and we said that capital punishment did exist for

15     that.  That is what I meant.

16        Q.   Are you talking about regular situations, or are you talking

17     about emergencies, or are you talking about court-martials, as they were

18     called?

19        A.   The discussion had to do with a regular situation in the Yugoslav

20     People's Army.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just to be clear, Dr. Mandilovic:  When you referred

23     to the former Yugoslav Army, you referred to the VJ, and Yugoslav

24     People's Army, to JNA?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the Yugoslav People's Army,

Page 5397

 1     the JNA.  As the state disintegrated and as the republics acquired

 2     independence, it became the former JNA, the former Yugoslav People's

 3     Republic, practically from 1991 onwards.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

 6             I don't know if Mr. Karadzic said "11th of January, 2000," but

 7     the statement is actually dated the 11th of February, 2000.  That's at

 8     page 3, line 2.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I may have said "February."  Thank

10     you all the same.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   So what was it that you meant?  From 1991, when were the

13     republics actually recognised?

14        A.   They were recognised when they were recognised by the United

15     Nations.

16        Q.   But that's January 1992; isn't that right?

17        A.   I thought that you asked me about Slovenia and Croatia.

18        Q.   Slovenia and Croatia too.

19        A.   I don't know exactly when they were recognised, but I know for

20     sure that it was 1991.

21        Q.   Thank you.  We will have to go back to this question of patriotic

22     forces.  The hospital was surrounded by patriotic forces, and an

23     agreement was reached that equipment would be left behind.  Let us see

24     how much you know about this.

25             What is it that you call patriotic forces, and what were the

Page 5398

 1     forces that exist in Sarajevo?

 2        A.   Patriotic forces are the Territorial Defence, the regular police

 3     force, and the reserve police force.

 4        Q.   In the Muslim part of Sarajevo; right?

 5        A.   In the part of Sarajevo that was later under the control of the

 6     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 7        Q.   The Serbs from Grbavica, Vraca, Lukavica and so on, they weren't

 8     patriots; right?

 9        A.   Of course they were.  I'm not denying that.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, you said his statement was taken on

11     February 11th, 2010?

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.  I said "11th of February,

13     2000."  It was a prior statement of the witness that Mr. Karadzic was

14     putting to him.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Not the amalgamated statement?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That's correct.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I was confused about that.

18             Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

19             Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   Dr. Mandilovic, did you know that in addition to the

22     Territorial Defence -- or, rather, do you agree that the

23     Territorial Defence, according to federal law, was subordinated to the

24     JNA?

25        A.   According to federal law, yes.  But don't forget that

Page 5399

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina was proclaimed an independent state at the time that

 2     we are discussing now.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Well, none of us will ever forget that.  Did you know

 4     when the Patriotic League was formed, and the Green Berets?  Do you know

 5     that the decision was reached on the 31st of March, 1991, and that in

 6     April 1991 the Patriotic League was established, which, up until

 7     January/February 1992, grew to a force of, say, 120.000 soldiers?

 8        A.   I'm not aware of these figures, Mr. Karadzic.  I was not a member

 9     of the Patriotic League, I was not a member of any political party.

10        Q.   I wasn't, either, but I know.  I know that it was a force to

11     reckon with, and --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, if you wish to give evidence, you can

13     do so.  But at this time, just put your questions.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Mandilovic, is this a convincing answer?  You say, No, I

16     don't know, I wasn't a member.  Is it only members that know?

17        A.   You are asking me about 1991.  1991 was not a war year, and I was

18     not really involved in any of that.  I just did my job.

19        Q.   Thank you.  On page 3 - I think it's page 3 or 4 of your

20     statement -- it's page 4 --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the

22     document.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You say that the State Hospital was not a military target, there

25     weren't any military positions, there weren't any personnel -- military

Page 5400

 1     personnel within the hospital compound:

 2             "We were simply there to treat people.  In spite of that, the

 3     hospital was intentionally targeted by mortar fire."

 4             First of all, tell me, was there a detachment or a battalion

 5     belonging to the Medical Corps there?

 6        A.   Are you talking about the hospital after the 10th of May, 1992?

 7     It is not very clear, what this pertains to.

 8        Q.   Mr. Mandilovic, in your view, when was it that the Serbs

 9     intentionally shelled the Military Hospital?

10        A.   The shelling of the former Military Hospital started after the

11     10th of May, 1992, when the personnel of the former JNA started

12     withdrawing from the hospital.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the

14     question.  It is too fast.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  The interpreters were

17     quicker to note the problem with the quick -- the sequence of questions

18     and answers, some of which are occurring while the interpretation is

19     still taking place of the previous responses.

20             JUDGE KWON:  That was your point.  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

21             As you can note from this transcript, the interpreters couldn't

22     follow your question and answer because you overlapped and you spoke too

23     fast.  So if both of you slow down and put a pause between the question

24     and answers.

25             So could you repeat the previous question and answer,

Page 5401

 1     Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Mandilovic?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise to all participants

 3     in these proceedings, the interpreters in particular.  But all of this

 4     rushes you to the fact that I haven't got enough time for this

 5     re-examination or cross-examination.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Doctor, did you say that after the 10th of May, there was no

 8     medical battalion in the Military Hospital?

 9        A.   In the Military Hospital, which is now the State Hospital, there

10     never was any military battalion.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2111, could I have that document,

12     please.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Doctor, could I ask you to read these 19 points?

15        A.   "The Command -- the Command of the Corps, Military Unit," such

16     and such a number.  Do I need to read all of this out?  This is a list of

17     the temporary locations of the units of the 1st Corps, and then they are

18     listed here:  The Mountain Brigade, the 2nd Mountain Brigade --

19        Q.   Just a moment, please.  The first paragraph, can we read that:

20             "On the basis of a need that was expressed and frequent requests

21     coming from the unit, we hereby send you a review of the temporary

22     locations of the units from the composition of the 1st Corps.

23             "The Command Corps," number 1.

24             "2.  1st Mountain Brigade, Sarajevo.

25             "The 2nd Mountain Brigade --"

Page 5402

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Dr. Mandilovic.

 2             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.  Microphone, please.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry.  Could the document be scrolled up so

 4     that we could see the date in the top of the document, please.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Doctor, could you read this slower?

 8        A.   Yes:

 9             "The 1st Motorised Brigade, Danijela Ozme, Sarajevo; the 2nd

10     Motorised Brigade, Dzemala Bijedica, Sarajevo; 5th Motorised Brigade,

11     Dobrinja; 9th Motorised Brigade, Trampina, Sarajevo.  101st --"

12             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think the witness needs to read out all the

13     document.  What is your point, Mr. Karadzic?  You said point 19.  What

14     was your question?  We can read it later on.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is no translation, and I

16     wanted this to be heard in the courtroom, what forces were involved here

17     in April 1993.  This is the organic composition of the 1st Corps, and

18     nothing seems to be known about that here.  Later on, they grew to the

19     level of three divisions, out of which the 12th Division remained in

20     Sarajevo.

21             In many proceedings and trials here, Sarajevo was considered a

22     harmless, helpless --

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Could you read number 17?

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Karadzic, we can see the substance of the

Page 5403

 1     document, as to the amount of brigades that there are, and you can deal

 2     with it in your evidence.  So for other documents like this, simply put

 3     the question to the witness, and you can be assured that the meaning will

 4     be clear to the Tribunal.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Doctor, could you read item 17?

 7        A.   "Medical Battalion, Military Post 5751, Military Hospital (GA),

 8     Sarajevo."

 9        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  You lived in Sarajevo for a long time, just

10     like me.  Do you know where these streets are?

11        A.   Yes, I know most of them.

12        Q.   Is it correct that Danijela Ozme is right in the very center,

13     right opposite the Presidency building?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Is it correct that Vase Miskina is in the very center, it

16     continues along Tito Street?

17        A.   Yes --

18        Q.   Is it correct that Trampina is close to the grand park in the

19     center of town as well?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you agree that Nemanjina is also in the center of town, but

22     it's a bit towards the slopes?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Again, Danijel a Ozme, the Military Hospital, and the Marsal Tito

25     Barracks.  All of this except for Dobrinja is in the center of town;

Page 5404

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And if I tell you that Asim Dzambasovic signed this document,

 4     Dzambasovic, who is chief of staff of the 1st Corps, would you accept

 5     that?

 6        A.   Yes, I accept it.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can it be admitted?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I have an observation.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Go ahead.

11        A.   The Medical Battalion was never part of the Military Hospital.

12     We have to be very clear about this.  The former Military Hospital, that

13     is, the State Hospital, never had a military component to it, and I'm

14     very positive and strenuous about that.

15        Q.   Yes, but it says this is part of the corps, not part of the

16     hospital.  Was it deployed within the infrastructure of the

17     Military Hospital?

18        A.   Not way.  It was outside the Military Hospital.

19        Q.   Within the compound of the Military Hospital?

20        A.   Within the compound of the Military Hospital, I agree, but far

21     from it.

22        Q.   How far?

23        A.   Three hundred metres.

24        Q.   Well, you said it was 300 metres to the River Miljacka?

25        A.   Yes, but you forget that it spreads in the east-west -- along the

Page 5405

 1     east-west line.  It is very narrow along the north-south line, but it's a

 2     very broad area along the east-west line.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification, pending

 4     translation.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D496, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   On this page, you said that despite that, the hospital was

 9     deliberately targeted by mortars.  How do you know that?

10        A.   Well, simply, the rest of 1992 and all of 1993, the city of

11     Sarajevo was constantly shelled with artillery of various calibres

12     indiscriminately in the immediate area of the Military Hospital.  The

13     shelling went on for 10, 12 hours non-stop, and we could clearly hear the

14     detonations of the incoming projectiles and their falling very close to

15     us.

16             You must know that a shell of any artillery piece falls within

17     the narrow core of the city, on concrete or on asphalt, and you cannot

18     mistake that sound for anything else.  And the projectile, itself,

19     disintegrates into a huge number of shrapnel.  There is no dilemma about

20     that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Which outgoing fire did you mention?  Which outgoing

22     fire did you hear?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Dr. Mandilovic.

24             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.  Microphone, please.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Karadzic said, page 13, line 1:

Page 5406

 1             "On this page, you said that despite that the hospital was

 2     deliberately targeted by mortars."

 3             Which page is Mr. Karadzic referring to?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm talking about page 4 of this

 5     statement, dated the 11th of February, 2000, and I do not mind at all if

 6     the doctor needs some breathing space to give an answer to this question.

 7     But, please, it is his statement, page 4 of that statement.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that wasn't my reason for standing

 9     up.  The document -- the reference before had been to the amalgamated

10     witness statement.  Now he's going back to the February 2000 statement.

11     So that was why I raised, because I couldn't see it on that page of that

12     amalgamated witness statement or on the page of the transcript.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Dr. Mandilovic, if you remember the question, yes, please, go

15     ahead.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17             I did not hear any outgoing fire.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Doctor, a moment ago you said that you heard outgoing and

20     incoming fire?

21        A.   No, no.  Your question was whether I heard mortar fire or other

22     kinds of artillery fire that was coming from the positions of the Army of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina and going towards the forces of the Bosnian Serbs.

24     That's what you meant, and I did not hear any such fire.

25        Q.   Let us try to refresh your memory now.

Page 5407

 1             I read this out to you, and I said, In spite of that, the

 2     hospital was intentionally targeted by mortar fire.  I assumed that after

 3     the 10th of May, you are ascribing that to the Serbs, and my question to

 4     you was:  How come you knew?  And you said that you had heard outgoing

 5     fire and incoming fire, and you described what was falling around you,

 6     and so on.  There was outgoing fire, and I'm going to show you what kind

 7     of outgoing fire that was.  But I would be interested in hearing what it

 8     was that you heard.

 9        A.   Two days ago, when I discussed this problem with you, I said that

10     the positions of the Bosnian Serbs were very nearby, close to the centre

11     of Sarajevo, that is, and, specifically, close to our hospital; also,

12     that artillery positions were relatively nearby.  So when I say "outgoing

13     fire," I'm talking about the initial firing of shells or projectiles.

14     And after a while, we would hear them fall in a particular part of town,

15     and that created a great deal of noise.  That's what I said, and that's

16     what I'm repeating again.

17        Q.   Are you trying to say that you heard outgoing and incoming fire,

18     and that both were Serbian fires, as it were?

19        A.   No.  "Outgoing" is not a good term.  That is initial fire created

20     by detonation due to a projectile that was fired from an artillery piece.

21     However, since there wasn't a classical front-line in Sarajevo, the

22     distances were very short.  So down there in town, in hospital, we heard

23     the moment when artillery pieces fired from the hills and when these

24     projectiles hit the city.  That's what I'm talking about.

25        Q.   Thank you.  What hill are you talking about?

Page 5408

 1        A.   The entire southern part of the town of Sarajevo.

 2        Q.   Are you talking about the slopes of Trebevic?  That's right,

 3     isn't it?

 4        A.   Yes.  As a rule, yes.

 5        Q.   How far is the Jewish cemetery, as the crow flies, from the

 6     Military Hospital?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I've said this on a number of occasions.

 8     Six hundred or six hundred and fifty metres as the crow flies, perhaps.

 9     It's difficult for me to estimate.

10        Q.   Thank you.  What sort of heavy artillery pieces did the Serbs

11     have at the Jewish cemetery?

12        A.   I don't know.  I didn't visit the Serbian positions, so I don't

13     know.

14        Q.   We'll have to go back to that subject when we receive some

15     documents that we are waiting for.

16             But you said, sir, that stress contributed to the fact that a lot

17     of errors were made.  On the same page:

18             "Human nature is such that errors are made, but when providing a

19     diagnosis or curing patients in the course of an artillery shelling, more

20     mistakes are made."

21             And so on and so forth.

22             Can you mention some of these mistakes?

23        A.   No.  That's the translation that you have just read out.  It's

24     not in the spirit of our language.  That's why it seems a little clumsy

25     when you read it out.  In our own language, it's different.

Page 5409

 1             What I want to say is that there was a lot of stress of all those

 2     who -- for all those who worked in the hospital.  They were under a lot

 3     of psychological pressure.  That concerned them and their families as

 4     well.  That is what is at stake.  The problem is that in such an

 5     uncertain situation -- well, such an uncertain situation went on for

 6     several months, not just for a day or two, and this can exhaust someone

 7     psychologically.

 8             In addition, I have to point out that there was also a lack of

 9     energy, a lack of heating.  This also contributed to stress.  I said that

10     the temperature in the hospital was equivalent to the outside temperature

11     on numerous occasions.  You know that the climate is a continental

12     climate in Sarajevo, so you can imagine what the temperature was like in

13     the operation room or in the hospital wards.  When this goes on for a

14     lengthy period of time, then it's quite natural that your psychological

15     equilibrium isn't what it usually is.  As a psychologist, you're well

16     aware of the fact.  Another factor is the lack of food; a significant

17     lack of food, not an absolute lack of food.

18        Q.   We'll get to that, Doctor.  But I am interested in whether these

19     mistakes that you have mentioned had certain medical consequences, and if

20     so, of what kind?

21        A.   I didn't notice any significant mistakes that would have affected

22     the health of the patients that were in our care.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24        A.   If I could just return to the matter.  I do remember that

25     statement, and I think that part of the statement also relates to the

Page 5410

 1     significant influx of wounded.  On such occasions, it's possible for

 2     certain mistakes to be committed, given the significant influx of wounded

 3     and the various types of wounds involved.  Then mistakes are quite

 4     possible.  However, we did our best to avoid committing mistakes, to

 5     reduce the mistakes made to a minimum.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did you provide this statement in English or in

 7     Bosnian, as they say, originally?

 8        A.   In the Bosnian language, but it was then translated into English

 9     and then back into our own language.

10        Q.   Thank you.  On page 5, you said that you couldn't say that the

11     hospital was deliberately targeted by snipers, but you said that the

12     hospital was hit on numerous occasions by fire from light weapons.

13     Doctor, could you tell us the following:  Where were the closest Serbian

14     positions from which it was possible to see clearly the Military Hospital

15     without any buildings hindering one's sight?

16        A.   The positions -- the Serbian positions from which you can see the

17     hospital is the entire Trebevic area, especially the western slopes of

18     Trebevic.  The Jewish cemetery, Grbavica, and Vraca are concerned.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And tell me the following:  Was it possible to fire

20     on the Military Hospital from Grbavica, given the layout of the

21     buildings?

22        A.   Yes, that was absolutely possible.  Certain parts of the hospital

23     could be fired on, and especially the more elevated parts.

24        Q.   And, Major - I address you as Major now - what is the range for

25     rifle fire?

Page 5411

 1        A.   Mr. Karadzic, this is at the end of the 20th century.  The

 2     weapons were sophisticated.  Snipers had a range of over 1.000 metres,

 3     without a doubt.

 4        Q.   Are you saying 12.7 or 7.92?

 5        A.   I'm not a military specialist, Dr. Karadzic, but you know what I

 6     mean.  The range is quite sufficient.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  We will have a look at that once we have received the

 8     map.

 9             You mentioned the lack of water, and you said that the water

10     supplies were sometimes interrupted, but:

11             "Since water was essential for the hospital, we had to improvise

12     so that we always had water available.  When there was no water, we would

13     bring it in by lorries to the hospital.  They would be kept in special

14     reservoirs.  In spite of all the difficulties, we always managed to have

15     available water."

16             Could the water of Miljacka be used for the hospital?

17        A.   Mr. Karadzic, we were in the hospital, and we had water in the

18     hospital for the basic needs.  Where water was brought in from, I don't

19     know, but its quality was controlled, it was disinfected, it was

20     sterilised.  That's certain.  Our management took good care of the water

21     supply and the energy supply.  I wasn't directly concerned.

22        Q.   Since you know Miljacka, you must know whether the water could

23     be put to good use.

24        A.   Mr. Karadzic, we didn't have any cases of poisoning as a result

25     of the use of water, so where the water was actually brought in from, I

Page 5412

 1     really do not know.

 2        Q.   But could anything have been brought in from Miljacka?  You and

 3     I are familiar with Miljacka.  Could the water from Miljacka have been

 4     used?

 5        A.   If you're thinking of the river that passes through the town of

 6     Sarajevo, I don't think that would have been possible.  It would have

 7     really been necessary to sterilise the water.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree at the time, in the part of Sarajevo

 9     under Muslim control, there were about 300.000 individuals?

10        A.   I believe that's the correct figure.

11        Q.   Do you agree that 50.000 to 60.000 individuals, out of those

12     300.000, were Serbs?

13        A.   In which part of Sarajevo?  What do you have in mind?

14        Q.   Throughout Sarajevo, in the entire Sarajevo, there were 175.000

15     Serbs and 24.000 Yugoslavs -- there were at least 15.000 Yugoslavs, so

16     there were 180.000 Serbs, 175.000 Serbs in all of Sarajevo, but in the

17     part that remained under Muslim control, there were 50.000 to 60.000

18     Serbs at the time; correct?

19        A.   It's possible.

20        Q.   Would you agree that the daily consumption of water

21     per individual in such -- or, rather, in normal conditions, is between

22     600 and 800 litres, but in such conditions, 100 to 120 or 180 litres

23     daily would be the daily consumption of water?

24        A.   I don't know about that information, Mr. Karadzic.  But as a

25     member of the State Hospital, but also as a civilian, I know that there

Page 5413

 1     was very little water and that it had to be used with care.  I really

 2     don't know where you have that information from.

 3        Q.   We went to the same university, we graduated from the same

 4     university.  For an individual to function normally, such an individual

 5     needs between 600 to 800 litres of water a day.  But given the conditions

 6     in Sarajevo, it would be 100 to 120 litres per person; is that correct?

 7        A.   We can't talk about normal conditions.  You have to reduce that

 8     amount quite significantly.

 9        Q.   Doctor, the water that did arrive, where did it arrive from?

10        A.   I don't know.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just for confirmation, Dr. Mandilovic, could you

12     give the number of the individuals that were in the part of the Sarajevo

13     under the Muslim control?  Did you say 3.000 or 300.000?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it was actually Mr. Karadzic that

15     said the figure of 300.000, and I think the witness said, That's about

16     correct, or words to that effect.

17             JUDGE KWON:  So 300.000.  Thank you.  It was Dr. Karadzic who

18     said that.

19             Let's move on.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, 300.000, if I have understood

21     this correctly, and the witness said that perhaps 50.000 to 60.000 of

22     them were Serbs.  That's the information that international institutions

23     have.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Doctor, where did the water come from?  Which sources were under

Page 5414

 1     the control of the Muslim government?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  He's asked that question three times and it's

 3     been answered already.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you, Doctor, reject the possibility that Muslim authorities

 7     sabotaged the possibility of repairing the water supply system and making

 8     water available?

 9        A.   I don't believe that the forces of the federal part of Sarajevo

10     were involved in any acts of sabotage.  It wasn't in the interest of the

11     population that lived there.

12        Q.   Was it in the interest of certain criminals to sell water?  And

13     if water was readily available, then the price of water would fall

14     because they wouldn't be able to sell it?

15        A.   I have to admit that I didn't notice anyone selling water.

16     That's quite interesting.  Food would be sold, but I never noticed water

17     being sold.

18        Q.   Did you notice that the price of food will also vary, and when

19     there wasn't a sufficient amount of food, the prices would be very high?

20        A.   Yes, there were such situations.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Doctor, do you reject the possibility that the Muslim

22     authorities asked Hungary to reduce the pressure of gas and then exerted

23     pressure -- or, rather, said that the Serbs weren't providing any gas?

24        A.   I can't say anything about that information.  This was something

25     that occurred at an international, inter-state level, so I really didn't

Page 5415

 1     have the opportunity of finding anything out about that.

 2        Q.   And if I were to tell you that the authorities in Sarajevo were,

 3     to a large extent, responsible for the lack of water and gas, and we'll

 4     demonstrate this here, we have information pertaining to that subject, if

 5     I said that, what would you say?  Would you be angry with the Serbs or

 6     with them?

 7        A.   I wouldn't believe them.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No probative value for us, questions which would

 9     require speculation on the part of the witness, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you'll see that it

11     does have such value when we show certain documents.  But the witness

12     isn't aware of many things.  I don't object to that, but I object to the

13     fact that he says that Serbs did certain things, whereas he has no

14     knowledge about the matter.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Sir, Doctor, did you say that there was a lack of medical

17     supplies, of medicine, of anaesthetics, of oxygen, et cetera?

18        A.   Yes, that's what I said, and that was the case.

19        Q.   Have you heard about the death of 12 babies in Banja Luka because

20     no one made it possible for oxygen to be delivered for the incubators?

21        A.   No, I haven't heard about that.  But I don't understand why that

22     happened in Banja LukaBanja Luka wasn't surrounded, and you can't

23     compare the situation in Banja Luka to the situation in Sarajevo.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

Page 5416

 1             MR. TIEGER:  I think the objection is obvious by way of

 2     relevance, and it is astonishing that the accused continues to complain

 3     about the amount of time he has for cross-examination when he ventures

 4     into areas such as this and into the kinds of arguments that he's been

 5     advancing during the course of this afternoon.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I quite agree with you, Mr. Tieger.

 7             Mr. Karadzic, come to your question that is relevant to the

 8     evidence of this witness.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             I think I have good reason to test the credibility of the

11     witness -- or, rather, to test whether the witness is well-informed.  I

12     don't mean to say that he is deliberately stating certain things that are

13     detrimental, not only to me but to the Serb people as well, but I have

14     the right to prove that the witness lacks certain knowledge.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just put your question, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since this has not yet been entered

17     into the e-court system, could we have this part here?  Could it be

18     placed on the ELMO, please?

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Doctor, reading a map shouldn't present a problem.

21        A.   It depends on the map.  We'll see.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you received the map, Ms. Sutherland.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If this is the same one that was in an e-mail at

24     2.13 p.m. this afternoon, yes.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Is that different from the map which appears on

Page 5417

 1     page 8 of the Sarajevo binder, court binder?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I think we have this.  No,

 3     it's different, different.  This is a map of the Muslim commander.

 4             [In English] Could you lift it a little bit.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I believe it is, Your Honour, it is different.

 6             THE ACCUSED:  Okay, I believe --

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Doctor, can you find your way here, and can you tell us where the

 9     Military Hospital is and where the Jewish cemetery is?

10        A.   Let's try.

11             [In English] May I?  Yes, thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  No, you should point to the actual map in order for

13     us to follow.  It's not in the e-court system.

14             Just a second.  Do you have another copy -- do you like the

15     witness to mark the map?

16             THE ACCUSED:  Maybe we have this in electronic form.  Let's see.

17     Maybe it is in --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

19             Then proceed to mark it, if you are able to locate it.  The

20     question is whether you can recognise the place for Military Hospital.

21             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   I agree with you.  Can you place "VB" or "GB "there, whatever you

24     prefer?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Or "MH," whatever.  Yes.

Page 5418

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "SH" for "State Hospital."  [Marks]

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Very well.  Can you find the Jewish cemetery now?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  If you can use the red one.  Yes, please.

 5             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Isn't it a bit to the left, to the south?  Can't you see the

 8     markings?  No, no, that's the cemetery.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, we've been through a variation of this

11     before, so I think we need to be careful about who's marking the map.

12     The witness --

13             JUDGE KWON:  I think the doctor will mark it only when he agrees

14     with it.

15             Dr. Mandilovic, did you follow me?  So you agree with that

16     location?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks] Roughly, that would be it.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Dr. Mandilovic, do you agree --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Tieger, I mean, I presume these locations

22     are fixed objects within the city.  They're not going to be in dispute,

23     are they?

24             MR. TIEGER:  I'm less concerned about the prospect of reaching

25     agreement on where fixed locations are as I am about locations, the

Page 5419

 1     boundaries of which -- or the particular locations of which at the time

 2     of the examination may not be so clear to either the parties or the

 3     witness, in particular, and then having been -- having reluctantly agreed

 4     to place a location in a particular area, questions are posed on that

 5     basis as if it was a fixed and agreed area.  So it's not that, in the

 6     abstract, that consensus can't be reached, but the use of a location as

 7     precise, when it was placed there by a witness who's only approximating

 8     and doing so on the basis of guidance by the accused.

 9             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, I don't see the difficulties, for

10     instance, with a potentially mobile front-line of either party in the

11     dispute.  But when we talk about a hospital or a cemetery, in my

12     experience, they don't move very far.

13             MR. TIEGER:  No, I agree, Your Honour, although if we are -- then

14     we have to be cautious later, when markings are made in this fashion,

15     that some effort is made to arrive at a consensus understanding of where

16     that location might actually be and what the ambit of the area

17     encompassed by that location may be, to the extent it's relevant.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's move on.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, Your Honour.  If I may.

20             If this map, which is on ELMO, is the same map as what was

21     e-mailed by the Defence at 2.13 or whatever this afternoon, then it's in

22     e-court, 65 ter number 11786.  And I note the map is from March 1995 to

23     1996, May 1996.

24             MR. TIEGER:  And, Your Honour, if I may follow up on His Honour

25     Judge Morrison's question.

Page 5420

 1             I would also say in response, Your Honour, then it seems to me if

 2     the precise locations are really the point of such an exercise, and we

 3     could arrive at them in advance, save the Court a lot of time, and be

 4     confident that we actually had them identified, one has to wonder about

 5     the reason for continually engaging in this kind of a cartographic

 6     exercise in court when the witness is repeatedly evidencing reluctance to

 7     do so, discomfort with doing so, and uncertainty in doing so.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Tieger, that's exactly why I raised the

 9     issue.

10             I mean, Dr. Karadzic, presumably, when we're talking about fixed

11     objects like hospitals, cemeteries, other notable buildings, this is a

12     matter where an agreed -- all of those could be put on an agreed plan

13     with the Prosecution, could they not?

14             MR. TIEGER:  I'll let the accused respond.  I had some additional

15     information, but let me -- the Court put a question.  I won't get in the

16     way.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we agree out of court on the

18     weapons around the Military Hospital?  Obviously, we cannot.  We cannot

19     agree on the distances, either, say, between the Jewish cemetery and the

20     hospital.

21             So let us identify this map.  This is the working map of the

22     chief, Rizvo Pleh signed it.  Now, I would like the central zone to be

23     zoomed in.

24             Have a bit of faith in my lawyerly skills.  I know exactly what

25     I'm trying to say and what I'm trying to show, and we cannot settle that

Page 5421

 1     out of court.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on, Mr. Tieger.  Do you have any further

 3     point?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Only to note that the matters that Dr. Karadzic just

 5     raised are distinct from the precise locations that we were talking

 6     about.  And I would also note that approximately 10 days ago, we

 7     provided, in response to a request by the Court, a map with such

 8     locations, and hoped that we would be able to arrive at some kind of

 9     resolution, so we're still awaiting a response from the Defence.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.

11             Let's zoom in this e-court -- map in the e-court so that we can

12     identify the relevant portions.  No, if you can zoom in in the actual

13     size, 100 per cent, we can find it.  Zoom further.  Again.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A bit to the east.  And now a bit

15     further down.  No, the other way around.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Going up.  Yes.  Further, further.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Doctor, could we ask you to mark the Military Hospital and the

19     Jewish cemetery?

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if I may, we have a bit of a

21     clearer copy, and it's a blow-up of one part of this big map that I've

22     just taken you to, and it's 65 ter number 07048J.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's not the very same map, the

24     work map of the chief of staff, it's of no use to us.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It is the same map.

Page 5422

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we try it?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Could you zoom out a bit, and could we see the eastern part.  Now

 4     we just see a part, so we need to zoom out a bit.  If you can't do better

 5     than that, then we can't see the Military Hospital.

 6        Q.   Is this the Jewish cemetery, Doctor, and do you see that the

 7     Muslims are on one side and that the Serbs are on the other side of that

 8     cemetery?

 9             Maybe we'd better go back to the previous map, because we cannot

10     see the Military Hospital, which is what we want to see, on this map.

11        A.   Exactly.  You cannot see the State Hospital here.  If you could

12     lower it down a bit.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Or we can zoom out once again.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, unfortunately, the map finishes

15     here where it was actually on the screen, so it doesn't go high enough

16     for the State/Military Hospital on this inset.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Then why don't we carry on with the actual map,

18     which is on the ELMO.  Yes, let's proceed with the --

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE KWON:  And then we can scan that map and up-load in the

21     e-court.

22             We proceed with the actual map.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Doctor, while we're waiting, can I ask you whether you know where

25     Avde Jabucice Street?

Page 5423

 1        A.   Yes, I know.

 2        Q.   Do you know where Livade is in that street?

 3        A.   I don't know what Livade is in that street.

 4        Q.   It's that area where there are no buildings, where nothing had

 5     been built yet.

 6        A.   I know roughly.

 7        Q.   Do you know where Crni Vrh is?

 8        A.   I do.

 9        Q.   Please have a look at this now.  There's the Jewish cemetery,

10     there's the Military Hospital.  What is this above the Military Hospital

11     at Crni Vrh?  Actually, is that Crni Vrh above the Military Hospital,

12     where we see this marking here?

13        A.   I really cannot see any marking or figure.  I don't know what

14     you're saying, Mr. Karadzic.

15        Q.   You're a major.  Isn't this a marking for a howitzer or a cannon?

16        A.   I'm sorry, but I really see no such thing.

17        Q.   Do you see this thing that looks like a syringe?  Could you

18     please put a circle around Crni Vrh, that area?

19        A.   Here it is.  [Marks]

20        Q.   That's that neighbourhood, Doctor, but I don't want to correct

21     you.  Do you see where it says "Gorica" up here?

22        A.   No, but Crni Vrh and Gorica is practically one and the same

23     thing.

24        Q.   I'm not talking about that built-up area.  I'm talking about the

25     area about two centimetres away.  Doesn't it say "Gorica" there?

Page 5424

 1        A.   I see that.

 2        Q.   Can you put a circle around Crni Vrh, and can you tell me what

 3     that marking is at Crni Vrh?

 4        A.   That is a marking denoting an artillery piece.  [Marks]

 5        Q.   Could you please put a circle around that.  Is that a Serbian gun

 6     or cannon, Major?

 7        A.   No, it's not a Serbian cannon, but I have no idea what cannon

 8     you're talking about.  It is certainly not a Serbian cannon, because that

 9     part of town was not under the control of the Bosnian Serbs.  Now, where

10     this map came from and who made this map, I really have no idea.

11        Q.   We'll deal with that later.  Do you see this, the "105th Mountain

12     Brigade"?

13        A.   Yes, I see that.

14        Q.   What is that marking there?

15        A.   The "105th Mountain Brigade," and that's a tank there.

16        Q.   Can you please put a circle around that?

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Could you place the letter T there or simply write "Tank"?

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Is that a Serb tank, Doctor?

21        A.   I have no idea whether there is a tank there.  I have never seen

22     it there.  This is just what you're suggesting.

23        Q.   But what does this military mark denote?

24        A.   That is the military mark that we are talking about, but I cannot

25     confirm for you something that I had never seen.

Page 5425

 1        Q.   Do you see another mark, semicircular, to the north-west of this

 2     one that we talked about just now?

 3        A.   Yes.  [Indicating]

 4        Q.   What does it mean?

 5        A.   I think it's a symbol for mortars.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Could you circle that, please?

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And could you mark "MB" by that place, please?

 9        A.   [Marks].

10        Q.   Now, could we go back to Gorica.  Would you agree that

11     immediately below this cannon, there are several streets that are called

12     Avde Jabucice, they are sort of meandering streets of a kind?

13        A.   Yes, that is a very steep and narrow street.

14        Q.   Could you please mark that with the letters "AJ"?

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   It's between the Military Hospital and Gorica; isn't that right?

17     And could you mark the cannon position with a T or an H?  It's obviously

18     a howitzer.

19        A.   You know what it is; I don't.  [Marks]

20        Q.   But there's no doubt that that is a symbol for a cannon, for an

21     artillery piece?

22        A.   Yes, but I don't know who put it there.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please date this and sign it.

24        A.   [Marks]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And could we have the whole map

Page 5426

 1     again so that we can see what the distance is between the

 2     Military Hospital and the Jewish cemetery.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Doctor, we have the scale of the map down below.  I would say

 5     that this is about a thousand metres, one kilometre.  You have the scale

 6     in the lower part of the map, and you can check the scale, you can check

 7     the distance.

 8        A.   No, that distance is incorrect.  It's a far shorter distance, as

 9     the crow flies.

10        Q.   Have a look.  Can you open up the map and have a look at the

11     scale?

12        A.   I don't need the scale, Mr. Karadzic.  I can see the Jewish

13     cemetery every day, and I can see details there.  I can't see any details

14     from a distance of one kilometre.

15        Q.   Can we scroll down and see whether you agree that this is

16     Debelo Brdo?

17        A.   I don't know where Debelo Brdo is.

18        Q.   Very well.  Please date it, sign it.  We will then scan it and

19     file it.

20        A.   [Marks] I've never seen this map before, though, because this map

21     is practically a map that I've just been shown, so I can't confirm that

22     it's an authentic -- an adequate map.

23        Q.   I don't believe that you are responsible for the map.  But you're

24     a major, and the map demonstrates the artillery positions, where the

25     artillery positions are above the hospital?

Page 5427

 1        A.   If I sign the map, it means that I accept the map and I accept

 2     the fact that the ABiH was deployed in this manner, and this is not my

 3     opinion; therefore, I cannot sign it.

 4        Q.   Can you see whose map it is?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No, it is not for the witness --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regardless of whose map it is --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We understood your position, Dr. Mandilovic, rest

 8     assured.  So did you sign it?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't signed it, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  You recognised the place for the Military Hospital,

11     and also you confirmed the location of the Jewish cemetery, and you just

12     recognised the marking or the markings which would mean the artillery, or

13     separate from the issue of whether that artillery actually existed at the

14     time.  So with that caveat, we'll admit that document.  So if you are

15     happy with that, so you can sign it.

16             THE WITNESS:  That's correct, Your Honour.  With those

17     reservations, yes, I will sign the map, because I'm not saying that those

18     artillery positions were really there at the time.  But as far as the

19     positions of the hospital are concerned, the Jewish cemetery position,

20     and the position of the street, well, naturally, there's no doubt about

21     those positions.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We understood that.

23             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D497.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, did you have something to raise?

Page 5428

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.  I was simply going to make the

 2     point that Mr. Karadzic is again making comments when he shouldn't be,

 3     and, secondly, that as the witness just said, he was directed to those

 4     markings by Mr. Karadzic and then circled them himself, but he is only

 5     sure about the Military Hospital, the Jewish cemetery, and the other

 6     street that he mentioned.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  And in some cases, he understood what those markings

 8     meant, so that's the furthest frame of the witness's evidence.

 9             Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  If I may, Your Honours, I'd make one further point.

11             I understand that's -- that the date of the map was 1995.  I

12     would think that when such documents are being presented to a witness, it

13     would be helpful to indicate to the witness the relevant date.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We'll bear that in mind in analysing the evidence.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Doctor, can you have a look to the south of Jewish cemetery.  You

17     can see that it says "Debelo Brdo" there.  Can you see that?

18        A.   No, I can't see that on the screen.

19        Q.   It's in the e-court system, not on the ELMO.  It's in e-court.

20        A.   No, I don't have it.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It looks like it's the ELMO -- no,

22     it isn't.  It's in the e-court system.

23             Could you assist us, perhaps?  Could you assist Dr. Mandilovic

24     and provide him with the map or make it possible for him to see the map

25     that we have on the screen.

Page 5429

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can you see it now?

 3        A.   No, I can't see anything.

 4        Q.   Do you have the same map on the screen, the one that we were

 5     looking at just a minute ago?

 6             We have it in e-court system.  It could be marked and signed.

 7     I'm talking about the previous map.  All we have to do is switch the

 8     e-court system on.

 9             Have you got that now, Doctor?

10        A.   Just a minute, please.

11             I can see the Jewish cemetery, but I can't see the

12     Military Hospital.

13        Q.   No, I'm referring to Debelo Brdo, not the Military Hospital.

14        A.   I can see it.

15        Q.   Can you circle that?  It says "Debelo Brdo" there.  Can you just

16     circle it?

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Could we have the date and your initials, please.

19        A.   [Marks]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Could this document be admitted into evidence?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Actually, I don't see the point, Mr. Karadzic.  You

23     are simply wasting your time.  We can read "Debelo Brdo" in this map.

24     Why do we need the witness to mark this "Debelo Brdo" at all?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Debelo Brdo was taken

Page 5430

 1     over by the Muslim Army, and the Muslim artillery was positioned there.

 2     It faces the Military Hospital.  You can see the Military Hospital better

 3     than from the Jewish cemetery.  There are no buildings that hinder one's

 4     sight.  We'll get to that.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  You can adduce evidence from another witness who can

 6     testify to that effect, but asking this witness, Dr. Mandilovic, to mark

 7     the location of Debelo Brdo in this map, which you can do easily without

 8     the assistance of this witness, is simply a waste of your time.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The doctor said that what came from

10     the hill, from Trebevic, were, in fact, Serbian shells.  This is

11     something we have to clarify.  Were Serbian shells fired from there or

12     not?  This entire slope was in the control -- under the control of the

13     Muslims.  The doctor isn't aware of the fact.  I don't object to that,

14     but he can't claim that they are Serbian shells.  That's what I object

15     to.

16             Will it be admitted or not?  I'll get to my question now.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

18             MR. TIEGER:  I'll just add one more point to the point the Court

19     was making, and that is:  The first question that Mr. Karadzic asked

20     about Debelo Brdo:

21             "Can we scroll down and see whether you agree that this is

22     Debelo Brdo?"

23             And the answer was:

24             "I don't know where Debelo Brdo is."

25             So not only are we engaging in the unnecessary exercise of

Page 5431

 1     marking and circling an area on a map that says Debelo Brdo, which

 2     clearly anybody can do, but we're doing it with someone who has

 3     previously indicated that he can't be of assistance in that regard, and I

 4     don't think we should encourage this kind of practice by admitting this

 5     document.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think the witness said that he didn't know

 7     where Debelo Brdo is.  But, Dr. Karadzic, we can admit the unmarked one,

 8     but I don't see any point of admitting this marked version of this map.

 9     There's no point.

10             So we can admit the unmarked version, and I take it there should

11     be no objection from the Prosecution.  So if you are minded to tender

12     this unmarked version, we'll admit it.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender it.  I'm

14     convinced that the Chamber has the opportunity to see the deployment of

15     forces around Debelo Brdo and the Jewish cemetery, and it's the first

16     time you have had such an opportunity.  So I suggest that this document

17     be admitted.

18             JUDGE KWON:  This clean version will be admitted.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D498, Your Honours.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D2109 on the screen,

21     please.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Sir, Doctor, do you know that the Supreme Command Staff wanted

24     the Sarajevo Military Hospital to be transformed into a military hospital

25     again -- or, rather, to a hospital for the Army of the Republic of Bosnia

Page 5432

 1     and Herzegovina?

 2        A.   No, I'm not familiar with the details.  Perhaps such request was

 3     made, but it was never put into effect.

 4        Q.   Could you please have a look at that document.

 5        A.   I am looking at it now.

 6        Q.   Can you see it says "The Military Hospital, Special Institute,"

 7     and so on and so forth?  Do you know that such attempts were made -- such

 8     requests were made by the ABiH?

 9        A.   Perhaps, but I'm not familiar with the details.  And this was

10     never put into effect.  That's what's most important.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at the

12     following page?

13             JUDGE KWON:  But before we move on, can you see the first page?

14             Dr. Mandilovic, can you recognise what document is -- this is

15     about?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've never seen this document

17     before, but I can see what it's about.  It's a request.  I saw the

18     signature a minute ago.  It's a request from the chief of staff of the

19     ABiH, and it says that for the needs of the Armed Forces of the ABiH a

20     medical centre should be established and organised, and in their opinion

21     the former military hospital was the most appropriate hospital for

22     providing the wounded and officers with care; because of its experience.

23     I can see a stamp, I can see a signature here, so that's probably an

24     authentic document, but, again, I'll repeat what I have already said:

25     This was never put into effect.

Page 5433

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Could you tell us, Doctor, what this means, "The French

 4     Hospital," because -- was it called the French Hospital at one point in

 5     time?

 6        A.   Yes.  After the 10th of May, after it had been taken over, after

 7     the former Military Hospital had been taken over by the Republic of

 8     Bosnia and Herzegovina, 10 days after that event, as I have already said,

 9     a new name was given to it.  "The State Hospital" is what it was called,

10     and this was certified as the correct name.  But at one point in time,

11     I think it's when President Mitterrand visited Sarajevo - I remember this

12     very clearly, he visited the hospital - at that point in time there was

13     an idea according to which the civilian hospital could be under the

14     auspices of the French -- or, rather, the name "The French Hospital"

15     could be used, but that didn't happen.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at the last

17     page so that we can see the commander, Sefer Halilovic, actually sent

18     this document.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Is that correct, that's "Sefer Halilovic" there, and we have the

21     stamp of the Main Staff?

22        A.   Yes.  I said a minute ago that it's an authentic document.  I've

23     never seen it before.  I wasn't in such a position to have access to such

24     a document, but there were rumours according to which such a

25     transformation might occur.  But as I have already said, this was never

Page 5434

 1     put into effect.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Could this document be admitted into evidence?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D499, Your Honours.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Doctor, would you agree there were conflicts in 1992 between the

 8     Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina and between the Croatian

 9     Defence Council, the HVO, and that there were wounded and dead?

10        A.   In 1992, as far as I can remember - a lot of time has passed

11     since then - I think that at that time there were no clashes between the

12     ABiH and the HVO.  Naturally, we're speaking about the year 1992.

13        Q.   And were there any armed conflicts between them at a later date?

14        A.   Yes, I think there were certain disagreements and

15     misunderstandings later on.  I think there were certain low-level

16     conflicts as well, but this was somewhat later.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D2110, please.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   While waiting for the document:  Doctor, how were these victims

20     described, the victims of the internal conflicts?

21        A.   I don't know.  We were surrounded for a long time in Sarajevo.

22     We had no contact with those who were wounded or who were ill outside the

23     boundaries of the town of Sarajevo, so I can't really answer that

24     question.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you read out what you can see here, what has been

Page 5435

 1     circled?

 2             Can we have a look at the bottom part of the document.

 3             Could you please read it out?

 4        A.   "We also have information according to which, in the evening

 5     hours on the 27th of December [Realtime transcript read in error

 6     "September"], 1992, a conflict broke out between members of the so-called

 7     BiH TO and the HVO.  There was a conflict in the area between the tobacco

 8     factory, the School of Economics, and the French Hospital, and it lasted

 9     for five hours."

10             I've already provided my answer, and I stand by that answer.  If

11     there were any clashes, I'm not aware of them, but one should point out

12     that the conflicts that did break out could have been conflicts between

13     certain unofficial bodies, between certain military formations that were

14     out of control, so I really couldn't go into the details and comment on

15     that.

16        Q.   What would these informal groups be?  You mean military groups

17     that are out of control.  Which ones?

18        A.   Well, you know, in the first stages of the war in the town of

19     Sarajevo, the conditions were very difficult, and naturally certain

20     informal groups were established.  That wasn't just a characteristic for

21     the ABiH.  That was a characteristic of all the armies that were involved

22     in the war in the Balkans.  So there were groups led by certain

23     criminals.  At certain points in time, they wanted to take advantage of

24     the situation.  But these were low-level conflicts, and they didn't have

25     a significant influence on the situation in Sarajevo and on the

Page 5436

 1     relationships that prevailed in Sarajevo.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Could this be admitted into evidence, please?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll deal with it after the break.  We need to rise

 5     right now.

 6             The first break will be for 35 minutes.  We'll resume at 3.35.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 3.02 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 3.38 p.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it's just a matter for the

11     transcript.

12             On page 42, line 12, the witness's -- the witness was asked to

13     read out the last paragraph on this document that's on the screen, and it

14     says in the transcript "27th of September, 1992."  I don't know if that's

15     what the witness actually said or whether he said "December," which is

16     the correct date, 27th of December.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the document reads "27th of December."

18             Is it correct, Dr. Mandilovic?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

20             JUDGE KWON:  When I said that we would deal with the admission of

21     this document after the recess, I was wondering about the relevance of

22     this document.  But you do not object to the admission of this document,

23     separate from the issue of translation, Ms. Sutherland?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  The witness hasn't been able

25     to speak to anything in this document, and according to your guide-lines,

Page 5437

 1     then, it's my position that it shouldn't be admitted.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And I was also wondering how it is related to the

 3     evidence of this witness which was given in-chief.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I've been waiting for

 5     the interpretation.

 6             Well, this is what this is about:  The fighting between the HVO

 7     and the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina was taking place in

 8     the vicinity of that hospital.  Obviously, the wounded would be admitted

 9     to that hospital, and if there are fatalities, that would be the same

10     thing.  So that's the French Hospital.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Instead of making submissions, you can put your

12     question to the witness.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I had put a question to him.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Doctor, did your hospital bear the name of "French Hospital" for

16     a while, and is it referred to as the place where there was fighting

17     between the HVO and the Territorial Defence of the BH?

18        A.   We did bear the name of the French Hospital for a while, that's

19     correct, but I did explain a few moments ago that in this triangle that

20     you were talking about, the hospital, the economic school, and the

21     factory of tobacco, there was no conflict.  You know full well that the

22     HVO is in the system of defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina and it was located

23     at Stup, and that is very far away from the French Hospital or the State

24     Hospital.  Therefore, I cannot accept this document of

25     Mr. Predrag Ceranic.  I have read it, but I do not stand by what it says.

Page 5438

 1     This is just an approximate version, as it were.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, while the witness testified to the

 3     so-called low-level conflicts, but the witness didn't have any idea about

 4     this document, so we'll not admit this.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Doctor, let's just see this:  Do you know where Trscanska Street

 7     is?

 8        A.   I do.

 9        Q.   Is it true that it goes from Titova towards Silvije Kranjcevica,

10     or, rather, the street where the Military Hospital is?

11        A.   A bit further away from the Military Hospital.

12        Q.   How far away?

13        A.   A couple of hundred metres.

14        Q.   A couple of hundred metres.  Is it between the Military Hospital

15     and the Unis skyscrapers?

16        A.   I think the answer is yes.

17        Q.   Do you know where Alpina is?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   So you don't know where Alpina is in Trscanska Street?

20        A.   I don't know.

21        Q.   And if I tell you that in Trscanska Street, in the Alpina

22     building, there was the Command of the 2nd Battalion of the 243rd Light

23     Croatian Brigade, of the HVO, that is, do you rule out that possibility

24     or do you allow for that possibility?

25        A.   I allow for that possibility, but it wasn't a typical location

Page 5439

 1     for the HVO forces.

 2        Q.   However, Doctor, Stup is a Croatian neighbourhood, but

 3     Kralj Tvrtko, Marin Dvor [Realtime transcript read in error "Mali

 4     Zvornik"], is that a predominantly Croatian neighbourhood as well?

 5        A.   I don't know whether it's predominant, but there certainly are

 6     Croats living there like in the other parts of Sarajevo for that matter.

 7        Q.   Marin Dvor, not "Mali Zvornik," as the transcript says.  Marin

 8     Dvor.  I'm sorry I'm in such a rush, but the point is that I don't have

 9     enough time.

10             Doctor, do you allow for the possibility or do you rule out the

11     possibility that at Livade, in Avde Jabucice Street, mortars were taken

12     out of garages, then they were used from time to time, and then they were

13     taken back to garages, and that's what went on throughout the war, and

14     that that was the outgoing fire that you could have heard?

15        A.   This is the first time I hear of this, from you, here and now.  I

16     never saw that, personally, and I never heard anyone talk about that.

17        Q.   Do you allow for the possibility or do you rule out the

18     possibility that in front of the Military Hospital, there was a gun from

19     time to time, a cannon, used to operate against Serb positions?

20        A.   I absolutely rule out that possibility.  You know the

21     configuration of the Military Hospital full well.  You know that it's in

22     the very centre of town.  You know full well that it is practically

23     inserted between two streets, and anyone who knows anything about

24     artillery and artillery pieces would have to rule that possibility out.

25        Q.   Thank you.  We are going to bring those documents later.

Page 5440

 1             Tell me, Doctor, do you know that mortars also fired from the

 2     compound of the Kosevo Hospital and also there was a cannon nearby there

 3     as well?

 4        A.   This is the first I hear of it.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Let us be very specific.  I'm not accusing you of

 6     doing anything on purpose.  However, when you say that some shells had

 7     come from Serb positions, do you have any proof of that or are you

 8     inferring that on the basis of the fact that there were Serb positions on

 9     the southern slopes, the slopes of Trebevic?

10        A.   I've already spoken about that.  The entire area of the hospital

11     and of Marin Dvor was shelled from Trebevic.  And since Serb forces were

12     at Trebevic, it was obvious that the fire came from there.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             I would like to recommend the testimony of Mr. Mandilovic to the

15     participants here, dated the 17th of January, 2007, in the case against

16     General Milosevic.  558 [as interpreted] is the page number, the 17th of

17     January, 2007.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   So you told us that you don't know where Debelo Brdo is, and also

20     that Serb positions were at Trebevic, and that the shells that fell from

21     Trebevic on the city were Serb shells.  Let me read out to you now what

22     happened on this page.  I have to do this in English.

23             The lawyer asked you the following -- it was Mr. Tapuskovic:

24             [In English] "I just received the answer, and since the witness

25     doesn't know, I wasn't assisting so much --"

Page 5441

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 2             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, page 558 is page 2 of his

 4     evidence-in-chief, so if I could be taken to the correct page, please.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said "588."  I hope, at least,

 6     that I said "588."

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Can he carry on, Ms. Sutherland?

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   [In English] "I didn't insist on whether the Muslim forces were

11     there.  This is going to be proven in some other testimonies.  I am only

12     asking you whether Debelo Brdo -- the elevation of Debelo Brdo, and in

13     the way he showed us, indicates that the Jewish cemetery was very close

14     to the bottom of Debelo Brdo.  Yes or no?"

15             [Interpretation] And this is what you said:

16             [In English] "Below Debelo Brdo, but I don't know who held

17     Debelo Brdo."

18             And so at that time, you didn't know where Debelo Brdo was?

19        A.   No, I never knew where Debelo Brdo was.  I know the term, but I

20     don't know where it is.  During the discussion and during the

21     cross-examination, it was my understanding that Debelo Brdo was above the

22     Jewish cemetery.  And then I said, Well, yes, possible.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to draw page 604 to your attention, the 18th

24     of January, 2007.  I'm going to read it out to you now.  Did you state

25     your views on Colina Kapa during that trial as well?

Page 5442

 1        A.   No.  I know of Mala and Velika, Colina Kapa, but I don't know

 2     where they are.  They are somewhere in the eastern part of Sarajevo, but

 3     I don't know where.  Somewhere below Trebevic.

 4        Q.   This is what it says here.  The question was on page 604:

 5             [In English] "Thank you very much.  You spoke about this

 6     yesterday, and I don't want to dwell on that, but let me ask you:  The

 7     two points, Colina Kapa and Debelo Brdo, they are the two dominant points

 8     and, of course, the hills of Trebevic?"

 9             [Interpretation] This was your answer:

10             [In English] "What do you mean when you say 'the dominant

11     points'?

12             "Q.  Well, these are two hills, too.  One is almost a thousand

13     metres high and the other is maybe 800.  I can't remember the exact

14     heights.  Would those be the hills that dominated the hospital?"

15             And you said:  "Yes, yes."

16             [Interpretation] Do you allow for the possibility or do you know,

17     in fact, who was at those hills -- on those hills?

18        A.   First of all, I have to make a certain correction; not in terms

19     of what I said, but in terms of how it's been interpreted.

20             Colina Kapa is pretty far away from the hospital, quite far away.

21     It's at the periphery of town.  These hills are not as high as you say.

22     These are small hills, in relation to Trebevic, and -- and they do not

23     have any great tactical importance, and they are of no strategic

24     importance whatsoever.

25        Q.   So you do know what their strategic and tactical importance is;

Page 5443

 1     right?

 2        A.   No, I don't, but one fact is for sure.  Wherever the BH Army was,

 3     the army of the Bosnian Serbs was always above them.  So the low hills

 4     that you refer to are absolutely unimportant, from a strategic point of

 5     view.

 6        Q.   Are you trying to say that Colina Kapa is at a lower altitude,

 7     lower than 800 metres?

 8        A.   I don't know.  You can find that on a map.  First of all, you

 9     have to look at the altitude of Sarajevo, and then the altitude of

10     Colina Kapa.  We should not confuse the two.

11        Q.   Thank you.  We are going to show that, if we're given an

12     opportunity, perhaps even during the course of your own testimony.

13             Very well.  What was the defence function of your hospital during

14     the war?

15        A.   The State Hospital had the classical function of any health

16     institution that is in a state of war.  Namely, we took care of the

17     wounded and the sick.

18        Q.   The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not take care of it at all, as

19     if it were its own, and they did not feel that they had any right to do

20     so?

21        A.   Absolutely not.  The State Hospital was a civilian structure.  It

22     had its own management, and, unfortunately, throughout the war it had to

23     fend for itself.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2108, please, could we have that

25     document.

Page 5444

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Could you please read the text below, just the first sentence

 3     that says:  "I also ask you ..."?  Actually, can you identify this?  Is

 4     this a document of the Ministry of National Defence, the Staff of the

 5     Territorial Defence?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And who's it sent to, addressed to?

 8        A.   The PTT Service of the town of Sarajevo.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  They're asking for some numbers here; right?

10        A.   Yes, I see that.

11        Q.   Can you please have a look at the sentence underneath the

12     figures, the numbers?

13        A.   "We also kindly request that you look into the possibility of

14     assigning five new PTT numbers for the needs of the former

15     Military Hospital."

16        Q.   Was this signed by Sefer Halilovic?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can this be admitted?

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Doctor, this seems to me like care about the Military Hospital,

22     and also claiming the military as one's own, asking for additional

23     telephone numbers, et cetera.

24        A.   This is not any kind of particular care, Mr. Karadzic.  This is

25     mere necessity.

Page 5445

 1             After the destruction that came from you, or, rather, your

 2     forces, in terms of PTT facilities in the town of Sarajevo, there was

 3     chaos in the town of Sarajevo.  It was extremely difficult to

 4     communicate.  Since the town of Sarajevo was at war, everything is

 5     subjected to the military command, including PTT.  It is only natural

 6     that the Military Hospital -- rather, the former Military Hospital, now

 7     the State Hospital, as a civilian structure, addresses the military

 8     command to ask for approval.  You know that in war, there is only a

 9     military command and that it's only the military that has jurisdiction.

10        Q.   Are you trying to say that there was military administration in

11     the town of Sarajevo?

12        A.   No, no, far be it from the truth.  I'm just saying that certain

13     functions were under the military.  For example, the assigning of

14     telephone numbers for normal communication in such an important health

15     institution does not mean that this institution is under the control of

16     the military.  I've already said that, and I stand by that.  You don't

17     have a single relevant document stating that the State Hospital was under

18     the military throughout the war.  This is just normal assistance in a

19     very difficult situation.

20        Q.   Doctor, why didn't your director, your general manager, ask for

21     this?  Why was it the commander of the staff?

22        A.   Our manager must have asked, but he addressed the chief of staff

23     to make sure that they get this PTT line through him.  As I said, this

24     was of vital importance, PTT, et cetera, and it has to be under the

25     military in a state of war.

Page 5446

 1        Q.   Very well.  So he asked the commander of the Main Staff to obtain

 2     this for him.  He asked him -- he made this request, since it was sent to

 3     his superior; isn't that right?

 4        A.   I don't agree with that.  Mr. Sefer Halilovic was never our

 5     director's superior, never.

 6        Q.   Very well.  Let me ask you something else.

 7             Do you know anything about Markale I, about the incident, the

 8     tragedy, however you want to call it?  It was February 1994?

 9        A.   Yes, the 5th of February, 1994.  There was a large-scale massacre

10     that occurred on that occasion.  I remember it.  I wasn't on duty at the

11     time, but according to the information I was provided with -- in the late

12     afternoon, I arrived in the hospital.  Much medical care had already been

13     provided.  It really was a large-scale massacre.  There were many

14     wounded, and many people were killed.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ask Ms. Sutherland not ask you about

16     Markale I, but only about Markale II?

17        A.   I didn't ask anyone for anything.  I haven't done so in the past,

18     and I'm not doing so now.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, we'll admit the previous document

21     as MFI Exhibit D500.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23        Q.   In your supplemental information sheet, the first item on the

24     first page says the following:

25             [In English] "People would be terrified and lapse into

Page 5447

 1     depression, and eventually could become indifferent and, apparently,

 2     fatalistic.  This is a progression and indicative of psychological

 3     exhaustion.  After a while, we seem to adapt to the fear."

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have the date of the supplementary

 6     information sheet?

 7           THE ACCUSED:  This is supplemental, date 2nd of October 19 -- 2001.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   And at the top, it says the "22nd of November, 2001,"

10     supplemental information sheet.

11             Doctor, what is this called, in scientific terms?  How does one

12     arrive at such a conclusion?

13        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I have already said that.  That's what I stated.  I

14     stand by what I stated there.  According to my information, I have my

15     knowledge from the sphere of psychology, psychiatry.  Well, I said what I

16     knew, and I didn't go into the details, but I do stand by what I stated.

17        Q.   Is that a precise scientific fact or is this your impression?

18        A.   It's my impression.  It's not an exact science.  I wasn't

19     involved in the science.  There are people who were involved in that

20     science.  But this was my personal impression, as a person who,

21     nevertheless, does have a certain amount of medical experience and

22     knowledge.

23        Q.   Thank you.  On the following page, you say:

24             "I haven't noticed symptoms in those close around me ..."

25             [In English] "... in people at large.  Particularly, you see this

Page 5448

 1     in traffic, the impatience, nervousness, agitation.  They break traffic

 2     rules and have alteration," probably, "[indiscernible] symptomatic of

 3     stress, PTSD effect."

 4             [Interpretation] Was a scientific study made which is the basis

 5     for what you claimed?

 6        A.   Dr. Karadzic, there were many scientific studies that were

 7     carried out in the war that continued from 1992 to 1995.  Many such

 8     studies were made that, in particular, concerned the victims of the war.

 9        Q.   Which studies are you referring to here?

10        A.   I'm not basing my opinion on studies here.  I was asked what my

11     personal opinion was about the matter, so this statement isn't based on a

12     scientific study of any kind.

13        Q.   Thank you.  The next item says:

14             [In English] " ... military doctors before.  I did not know

15     anything about how the VRS operated.  They had come from JNA and had the

16     same command staff, so it is logical that they worked in the way of the

17     old JNA.  I do not include paramilitaries in this.  I never had contact

18     with any of them."

19             [Interpretation] Do you know where Muslim officers came from,

20     ABiH officers, Sefer Halilovic, Nadalic [phoen], Hajrulahovic, and so on

21     and so forth?  Which army did they come from?

22        A.   The officers, whose names you have mentioned, came from the JNA,

23     that's what it says here, but there were officers in the ABiH who didn't

24     have a military pedigree, who had come from other areas.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Have you heard of Caco, Juka Prazina, Celo -- a

Page 5449

 1     certain Celo, and have you heard of their brigades and of the terror that

 2     they spread against the Serbs in Sarajevo?

 3        A.   Yes, I have heard of the names that you have mentioned.  They

 4     come from the town of Sarajevo, from that milieu.  They weren't specific

 5     to the Sarajevo battle-field -- or, rather, there were paramilitary

 6     formations present amongst all the armies that were established.  They

 7     had certain disagreements, they had certain problems.  And during one

 8     period of time in the course of the war, the ABiH really strove to unite

 9     all those units and to place them under their control.

10        Q.   Are you familiar with an army in the Balkans, or anywhere in the

11     world, where criminals, such as Juka Prazina, became a general and a

12     member of the supreme command?

13        A.   Juka Prazina was never a general in the ABiH.  He moved over from

14     the ABiH to the HVO for certain reasons that I can't comment on.  I'm not

15     familiar with all those situations.  And there, he was promoted to the

16     rank of general.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Have you heard of Kazani, the place Kazani, which is

18     where Serbs and Jews were killed, and does this remind you of the Second

19     World War at all?

20        A.   I heard of Kazani only after the end of the war, after 1995.  It

21     was mentioned in the press, in the media, certain investigations were

22     launched, but I know nothing else about that.  As to the outcome of the

23     investigation, I'm not familiar with it.

24        Q.   How was this described to you?  What did you hear about it after

25     the war?

Page 5450

 1        A.   All I knew was what I learned from the media, electronic media or

 2     the printed media.

 3        Q.   What did you learn about the event?

 4        A.   Kazani was a place where certain Serbs were killed.  That was the

 5     crux of the matter.  That's a bit approximative.  Definite conclusions

 6     were never reached with regard to the numbers concerned or the

 7     time-period, because a thorough investigation was never launched into

 8     that, as far as I know.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm just wondering where the

11     relevance of this [indiscernible] to the charges in the indictment.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I quite agree.

13             I don't understand, Mr. Karadzic, how come you can complain about

14     the shortage of time, asking these questions to the witness.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if this witness says

16     the Serbs were targeting the hospital from Trebevic, they were doing that

17     deliberately, and if he doesn't know who was on Trebevic, if he says it

18     was terrible to live in Sarajevo at the time, we should find out who was

19     responsible for this.  If he says that the inhabitants of Sarajevo

20     suffered, well, I know, but let's see why.  This cannot be ascribed to

21     the Serbs.

22             Could we please see 1D2103.

23             With all due respect for the witness, his statements have been

24     made in a fairly cavalier manner.  He's been expressing his impressions.

25     He hasn't provided us with information about the conditions in Sarajevo

Page 5451

 1     for the Serbs, and these are the terrors that have to be described.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just ask your question.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]  This is item -- this is from

 4     "Srna," 8th of May, 1992.  It's a report from "Srna."  Could we now see

 5     page 4 in this article, please.

 6        Q.   As someone born in Novi Sad, I'm quite convinced that you can

 7     read the Cyrillic script without any problems.  It says:

 8             "This is a dramatic appeal from the doctors who work in the

 9     Military Hospital in Sarajevo."

10             It was sent on the 7th of May, 1992, to the Service for Informing

11     the Crisis Staff.  It says -- well, could you read out what it says here?

12        A.   It says:

13             "Gentlemen, please prevent -- gentlemen, use all your forces to

14     prevent the lies that are being spread with regard to this institution.

15     There are no hostages here.  No one has been isolated here.  Only those

16     who don't want to hand this institution over to the TO of the BH have

17     remained here.  I'm afraid that the authorities might be responsible for

18     this house falling.  We have some forces for our defence, but for five

19     days now we haven't received any bread or milk.  What have you done?  We

20     have been left here, and we are being targeted by mortars and snipers

21     every day.  You can't be heard.  You are not doing anything.  If you lose

22     this house, you've lost half of Sarajevo.  Please --"

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

24             I think we have an English translation for this.  No?  Thank you.

25             Please carry on, Dr. Mandilovic.

Page 5452

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "You can't be heard.  You are not

 2     doing anything.  If this house is lost, you will have lost half of

 3     Sarajevo.  Please announce that all soldiers in the military hospital are

 4     alive.  Colonel Dusko Kovacevic is with us.  Gentlemen, do something as

 5     soon as possible."

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Did you know Colonel Kovacevic?

 8        A.   No, no.

 9        Q.   Did you know that at the time you were absent there, do you know

10     that they opened fire on the Military Hospital, snipers and mortars

11     targeted the hospital, and they weren't provided with bread and milk for

12     five days?  Did you know that?

13        A.   I can't answer the question.  I wasn't there.

14        Q.   When you arrived there, did you ask about the situation when you

15     were absent?

16        A.   No.  When I arrived there, there was no one present.

17        Q.   None of those who complained; is that right?

18        A.   That's right, no one was there.

19        Q.   Very well.  Did you notice the damage inflicted by the bullets or

20     the mortars?  Did you notice it on the 10th or the 12th, when you arrived

21     there?

22        A.   When I arrived in the hospital, I didn't notice anything.  I've

23     already said that.  I didn't notice any significant or extensive damage,

24     not on the asphalt, or on the facade, on the walls, or on windows.

25        Q.   Did you know -- did you notice minor damage?

Page 5453

 1        A.   I really couldn't say.  Eighteen years have passed since then.  I

 2     can't remember.  At the time, it wasn't important.

 3        Q.   Those people who were crying out for help think that that was

 4     important.  Do you know who was shooting, until the 7th or the 10th of

 5     May, who was shooting at the Military Hospital?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I really don't know.

 7        Q.   Do you rule out the possibility that it was the Serbs?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I think you exhausted your topics --

 9     I think you covered this topic at the beginning of your

10     cross-examination.  Move on to another topic, please.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can this document be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Pursuant to your guide-lines, Your Honour, I

15     would -- it's our position that it shouldn't be admitted.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

18             MR. TIEGER:  I just want to be a bit cautious, Your Honour.

19     Since we have engaged with discussions about the Defence with this, and

20     we have had some discussions in court and Chambers about this, I'm not

21     suggesting that every time a witness can't speak to the document or a

22     document is presented to him to amplify some aspect of a

23     cross-examination, it's not admissible.  But in this case, in light of

24     the fact that we have a time-period preceding the period about which the

25     witness can use, and we have -- the document tendered is "Srna," which is

Page 5454

 1     the Serbian press agency, promulgated for particular reasons, I think we

 2     have a particular reason for caution here.  So I don't want to suggest

 3     that we are re-introducing a more stringent form of admissibility, but

 4     I think the caution, as Ms. Sutherland expressed, with respect to these

 5     kinds of documents, is appropriate.

 6             I'm looking at Judge Lattanzi.  She's -- I don't know if she has

 7     any questions about it, but I think "Srna" has a -- is a matter of a

 8     different kind of concern than normally official documents, the type

 9     we've been looking at coming from -- that are produced contemporaneous;

10     for example, communications within particular bodies and so on.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something before --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, "Srna" is a state news

14     agency.  It does not invent things.  It doesn't provide comments.  I

15     don't rely on their comments.  I rely on them conveying other documents.

16     This is an appeal from the Military Hospital, from the staff of the

17     Military Hospital, and it was taken over by others from the Srna News

18     Agency.  It is totally unacceptable to disqualify a news agency in this

19     way, as far as news are concerned, not comments.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is of the view that we do not need to

22     set up a new rule depending upon the content of the document.  But simple

23     or consistent application of our guide-line is that the witness didn't

24     confirm anything about this, he gave his testimony about the content of

25     this event, so we will not admit this.

Page 5455

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Doctor, now I'd like us to have a look at something.  Actually,

 3     I'd like us to discuss medical documents, the medical documents that you

 4     provided.  Is this everything that this hospital did, and, if so, in

 5     which period?

 6        A.   I don't know which documents you're referring to.

 7        Q.   I mean the documents that are attached as medical documentation

 8     from this hospital that is often called the General Hospital of Sarajevo,

 9     and then the Military Hospital, and then the City Hospital.  Is the

10     General Hospital of Sarajevo the same thing as the Military Hospital or,

11     rather, the State Hospital?

12        A.   The State Hospital is the former Military Hospital.

13        Q.   And what is this General Hospital of Sarajevo?

14        A.   That's a new term.  That's a new term.  Presently, that is the

15     name it bears, the Hospital of Dr. Abdulah Nakas.

16        Q.   When did it become the General Hospital?

17        A.   It's been about five or six years now.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 09595, but I believe that it

19     has a P number now.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, just while we're waiting for the

21     exhibit number to come up:  Mr. Karadzic put to the witness "medical

22     documents that you provided."  It's clear from the witness's statement

23     that he didn't provide them.  He was shown certain documents by the OTP,

24     and he commented on certain documents.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 5456

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document has been admitted as

 2     Exhibit P1235.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Does it say here that it's the General Hospital of Sarajevo, and

 5     is the date the 9th of September, 1993?

 6        A.   That's what's written there.  But in 1993, it was the

 7     State Hospital.

 8        Q.   Five years ago, it became the General Hospital?

 9        A.   I cannot really say for sure.  I am not sure about the actual

10     dates, but in 1993 it was the State Hospital.

11        Q.   Well, look, let's try to find our way somehow.  It was the OTP,

12     then, that showed this to you?

13        A.   I haven't seen this document.  This is a document.  It has a

14     stamp, it's got everything, but -- ah, no, no, no, no, no.  Dr. Karadzic,

15     Dr. Karadzic, this is what this game is about:  This is a copy of the

16     findings of 1993.  It was copied out.  Often, for the purposes of various

17     commissions, excerpts were requested from medical documentation, and it

18     says up here "Copy."  That is to say, this was copied from the original

19     findings.

20        Q.   I see.  And where are the original findings?

21        A.   If the patient had the original findings, he wouldn't have asked

22     for this.  He probably needs to exercise some rights in connection with

23     this.  Obviously, the patient had been wounded, and he's probably asking

24     for some kind of rights, exercised on the basis of a disability or

25     whatever.  So he simply wanted the original findings to be copied many

Page 5457

 1     years later.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, by your leave, I

 3     really have to be a lot more careful with these associated documents.

 4     Dr. Mandilovic never saw this document before, and we admitted it into

 5     evidence.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dr. Karadzic, the document is

 7     perfectly valid.  However, you tried to confuse me with the name of the

 8     hospital.  It is absolutely valid, the document.  You speak our language,

 9     don't you?  And it says up here "Prepis Naliza" [phoen], that is to say,

10     "Findings copied out for" such and such a person, and so on.  And there's

11     the date as well.  Do you understand?

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Well, all right, Doctor.  But why did we not receive a photocopy

14     of the original findings?  Why did we just get this copy that was written

15     out a couple of days ago?

16        A.   Well, you could not, because the lady obviously lost the original

17     findings somewhere during the course of the war, and that is why she was

18     asking for the original document -- for the original findings to be

19     copied out.  However, since we have excellent documents, we found her

20     name, we found her diagnosis, and we simply wrote this out and said that

21     she was wounded, and what the diagnosis was, and so on and so forth.

22     It's hard for me to say now.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I think that such

24     documents should not be admitted through this witness; rather, these

25     documents should be admitted through the person who actually copied them

Page 5458

 1     out, who wrote them out.  Are these findings going to remain in evidence

 2     or will you have them withdrawn?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, Dr. Mandilovic confirmed the way and

 4     as to how it is issued by the hospital, and he confirmed the

 5     authenticity.  There's no reason not to admit this.  And he confirmed in

 6     his statement that the -- in para 117 and 118, he confirmed the

 7     authenticity of these documents.  On that basis, we admitted this

 8     document, and there's no reason for us to revisit the issue.

 9             Please carry on, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have another page of this

11     same document?  If Dr. Mandilovic is familiar with this document, then

12     let's have a look at it.  The next page -- or, rather, 2, 3 -- page 3.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Doctor, why was that needed?  Because over here, you can see on

15     the first page the actual patient history.  So why was that copy needed

16     when there is a patient history, without a stamp, in all fairness, but

17     something is written here?

18        A.   This document that I have on my screen now is perfectly valid,

19     just like those findings.  Now, why did the lady need the document, why

20     did she need to have the findings copied out, I don't know.  But both

21     documents are absolutely valid.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 7, could we have that now.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Now, this is somebody else, some person called Meliha in this

25     document, then Admir.

Page 5459

 1        A.   I just have the case history signed by Dr. Ranko Vuletic.  I

 2     don't have the first page, so I don't know the name and surname of the

 3     patient.  I see that it's a valid document because it was signed by a

 4     doctor who I know personally.

 5        Q.   And this child was injured by whose bullet?  Who was it that

 6     wounded this child?

 7        A.   It doesn't say in the case history.  It just says what the date

 8     was, that the child was brought to the ward after having been injured by

 9     a projectile and was immediately re-animated, and then the actual surgery

10     performed is explained in greater detail.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             65 ter 09615 now, please.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, for the record, this has been

14     admitted as Exhibit P1237.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   What is this wound; can you tell us?

18        A.   It's an explosive wound in the right foot.

19        Q.   And the person was released after two days; right?

20        A.   Probably.

21        Q.   Does it say here:  "Discharged on the 7th of February, 1994,"

22     Doctor?

23        A.   I don't know.  It is barely legible, the original that I see

24     here.  I just see the name and surname.  I see it says "civilian," and I

25     see that this person was born in 1973.  I see the address, Humska Street,

Page 5460

 1     27.  I have the diagnosis, and I see what was done; that the wound was

 2     dressed.

 3        Q.   And underneath?

 4        A.   It says:  "Discharged on the 7th of February, 1994."

 5        Q.   Thank you.  So she was released on the 7th of February, 1994?

 6        A.   Yes, that's what is written here.

 7        Q.   "Vulnus," as it is written here; is that right?

 8        A.   Why are you asking?

 9        Q.   Because there are several findings with the very same word.

10        A.   But, of course, we didn't have 100 doctors, Mr. Karadzic.  Our

11     doctors were there in surgery and at the Emergency Ward.  It's one and

12     the same doctor who wrote up all these documents, yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   "Vulnus," is that the same handwriting?

16        A.   Of course, it's got to be the same doctor, no dilemma about that,

17     the very same handwriting.

18        Q.   I see.  And this person was released two days later as well?

19        A.   Yes, yes, that's the way we had to operate.  We didn't have

20     enough room.  We would treat patients, and when there was no danger of

21     further complications, we discharged patients, and then they were asked

22     to come back for check-ups.

23             This is an explosive wound of the right arm; that is to say, that

24     the patient is perfectly mobile and we were in no position to keep that

25     patient in hospital any longer.

Page 5461

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   This is also the 5th of February, Sefik Kukavica, civilian?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How did the doctor come to this information, that this person was

 7     a civilian?

 8        A.   Well, that's very simple.  Mr. Sefik came to the Surgery Ward on

 9     the 5th of February, and he showed documents showing who he was.

10        Q.   Thank you.  So it's the same handwriting; right?

11        A.   Yes.  Dr. Karadzic, you worked in medical institutions.  For

12     heaven's sake, you can see it's the same date, and you can see that it is

13     one single doctor who was working throughout that day at the Surgery

14     Ward.  It's different patients, but of course it's the same handwriting.

15     It's the same day in surgery.  Of course, it's the same man; of course,

16     it's the same handwriting.

17        Q.   And they all waited for him to see them?

18        A.   Who else could see them?  I apologise.  These are not urgent

19     cases.  These are people who come for a check-up and to have their wounds

20     dressed.  These are not people whose lives are in danger.

21        Q.   Doctor, this is the 5th of February, so this is an exit/entry

22     wound, we see, in the abdomen; explosive, hemi-thorax, all right, limbs,

23     arm, leg.  But look at all of this.  They are all waiting in the waiting

24     room to be received by that doctor.  He's receiving them one by one, and

25     he's dealing with them.  It says "PHO."

Page 5462

 1             Can we have the next -- no, no, no, this is it.  The next one,

 2     actually.  That's it.  Now the next one.  Next one, please.

 3             "Vulnus sclopetarium"; right?  What is this?  "Slatizan [phoen]

 4     history."  "Surgical treatment of wound."

 5             Can we have the next one?

 6             This is an exit/entry wound, is it not?

 7        A.   Yes, it is, of the gluteal area, right area.  An anti-tetanus

 8     serum was administered, and the individual was hospitalised.  Apologies.

 9        Q.   And the person was discharged on the 8th of February; is that

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So these are all patients following the explosion at Markale, and

13     a doctor would line them up, take them in one by one, discharge them, or

14     hospitalise them.  So how does this all seem to you, as a doctor?

15        A.   Well, it's very well.  You have to know that serious cases were

16     being operated in surgeries at this very moment and that there was a

17     doctor there to receive less-serious patients.  We used to have a triage

18     conducted, prioritising patients for treatment.  So if we are talking

19     about this period, you are, in fact, bringing confusion into this whole

20     matter.  We have serious cases being treated in the theatre; whereas,

21     less-serious cases were being treated in this ward.  Most of the surgeons

22     were being engaged in operations at this very moment, whereas there was

23     just one surgeon, with the assistance of a nurse, who treated these

24     less-serious cases.

25        Q.   Doctor, have you reviewed all the material shown to you by the

Page 5463

 1     Prosecution?

 2        A.   Well, it was very voluminous.  I don't know if I've seen

 3     everything, but I've seen a large part of it, and I stand by what I say.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at 09616, a 65 ter

 5     document which probably has a P number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this has been admitted as

 7     Exhibit P1238.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't need to have the document

 9     in English.  Could we have the entire document up.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Who added this in handwriting, "Shell"?

12        A.   Where?

13        Q.   In the third column.

14        A.   Can you give me a name?  I don't see a "shell" written anywhere.

15     Ah, now I see it, yes.

16        Q.   It's evidently a different handwriting and a different pen.  Who

17     made these additional annotations?

18        A.   I don't know.  This is a different institution.  It's a document

19     from the Clinical Centre, and obviously somebody else made these

20     additional annotations.  However, from the description of the wounds, one

21     can see that these were most probably -- this was most probably shrapnel,

22     because we have "explosive wound," "explosive wound," "explosive wound."

23     In other words, we had explosive wounds which were typical for shells.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Mr. Karadzic please repeat his question.

25             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

Page 5464

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Dr. Mandilovic.

 2             Could you repeat your question, Mr. Karadzic.  The interpreters

 3     couldn't hear that.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Does the letter K stand for "Kuca," meaning "in-house" or

 6     "house"?

 7        A.   Yes, it's possible.  This is the Clinical Centre after all, but

 8     it is possible.  We have reception or hospitalisation with the first and

 9     the second cases as well; whereas, next to the case of Mira Stanisic, we

10     have "K" there, so maybe meaning that she was actually discharged, sent

11     home.  Of course, there were less-serious wounds.  Not all these cases

12     were necessarily hospitalised.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we turn to the next page.

14     Another one, please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Here, it says two were discharged home?

17        A.   And the other two died.

18        Q.   Yes.  How was it possible that a shell caused a vulnus

19     sclopetarium, an entry/exit wound?  We saw it in the Military Hospital.

20     We have it here.  How can we have an entry/exit wound as a result of a

21     shell impact?

22        A.   Well, I don't recall there being such wounds.  They were, for the

23     most part, explosive wounds.  And down here, if you look at the second

24     patient from the top, we have combustion or, in other words, it's a burn.

25     In the document we looked at earlier on, there was a sclopetarium wound,

Page 5465

 1     but it's really difficult to tell.

 2        Q.   But it wasn't just one case.  I'll find many more, as many as you

 3     like.

 4        A.   There was constant fire, not just shelling.  There was small-arms

 5     fire, there was sniper fire.  It's difficult to tell.

 6        Q.   Hodzic -- no, 974 or page 7 --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Can you identify the patient in the English page in

 8     which the exit and -- entry and exit wounds appear?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There, Patient 870, for instance.

10     We have it here in the Serbian version, and it says clearly "Vulnus

11     sclopetarium," "Regionis vateris femori sinistri."  It says

12     "sclopetarium," and it is added in handwriting "shell."

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's possible.  Why not?

14     What does "sclopetarium" stand for?  It means that it's an entry/exit

15     wound.  It's possible.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Yes.  Doctor, entry/exit wound?

18        A.   Precisely.  The shrapnel got in and got out and did not make

19     extensive damage.  It is quite possible.  It need not always be an

20     explosive wound.  It can be a sclopetarium wound.

21        Q.   And need there be laceration, Doctor?  How can shrapnel pass

22     through tissue without lacerating it?

23        A.   Shrapnel can be of different sizes.  There are shrapnel -- there

24     is shrapnel that can be smaller than a bullet, and, of course, they can

25     get fragmented into thousands of pieces.

Page 5466

 1        Q.   On page 879, the next page, again we have the entry/exit wound?

 2        A.   Right.

 3        Q.   885, "Vulnus sclopetarium"?

 4        A.   Yes, "Entry/exit wound."  And that's as clear as day.  I don't

 5     see why you should highlight it so.  These are entry/exit wounds from

 6     shrapnel.

 7        Q.   879, again "Vulnus trans-sclopetarium"?

 8        A.   Well, these were probably lucky people.

 9        Q.   I didn't hear you.

10        A.   Well, the ones -- the individuals you're referring to were

11     evidently lucky.

12        Q.   To be hit by a bullet; right?

13        A.   No, to have had the projectile go in and out.

14        Q.   Come on, Doctor.  You, yourself, don't believe what you're

15     saying.  How is it possible that you would have so many cases of vulnus

16     sclopetarium as a result of a shell?  Be a doctor and tell us.

17        A.   Well, I've already said what I've experienced, myself, and I

18     stand by what I said.  But I cannot stand behind every diagnosis made and

19     every doctor's findings.

20        Q.   Page 5, can we look at Person number 863.  "Vulnus sclopetarium."

21     861, "Vulnus sclopetarium."

22        A.   Well, fine.  This was minor damage.  Shrapnel got in and went

23     out.  The diagnosis is quite clear.  I don't see why you're belabouring

24     the point.

25        Q.   858, 859, 860, it only says "Shell"?

Page 5467

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Let's move along.  Let's look at page 1.  "Vulnus sclopetarium,

 3     regionis vateris femori sinistri."  We will not be mentioning the name.

 4             It says "Page 1."  I'm not looking at the collective findings,

 5     but individual findings, so it's one page ahead.

 6        A.   What are you referring to?

 7        Q.   A page before the one we're seeing right now.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. --

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if Mr. Karadzic doesn't want the

10     witness's name to be spoken, perhaps we can go into private session or

11     the document can be taken off the broadcast.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure whether this has already been

13     broadcast, but --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have any particular wish to

15     mention the names.  We simply don't need them.  Perhaps we need not

16     broadcast beyond the courtroom what we have on our screens.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   At page 42, again we have the Military Hospital, again "Vulnus

19     sclopetarium."

20        A.   If you don't want us to mention names --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  But it was not tendered

22     confidentially.  It was admitted publicly.  Just out of --

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I have no problem, Your Honour.  I wonder why

24     Dr. Karadzic said that, and I thought there might be a reason for it.

25             JUDGE KWON:  It just -- I think it was out of an abundance of

Page 5468

 1     caution, but it is a public document.  But let's carry on.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellent.  No problem.  Can we go

 3     back, then, to the very beginning of the document.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can only read out numbers.  We

 5     don't need to mention first and last names.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Yes.  These numbers, 09 -- yes, these numbers, we can read them

 8     out.

 9             65 ter 09959 -- 09595.  It's been admitted already.  It says

10     "Vulnus sclopetarium, abdominis, hospitalisation."

11        A.   The diagnosis is more than clear, Mr. Karadzic.

12        Q.   The first one we looked at.

13        A.   "Vulnus trans sclopetarium abdominis" is very clear.  It means

14     that the shrapnel entered the abdomen and left the body.

15        Q.   Very well.  This is not important anymore.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There are some documents here from

17     the Military Hospital.  I wonder, Your Excellencies, if the Defence

18     should have allowed for documents originating from other hospitals to be

19     admitted through this witness.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I don't understand what you're saying.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If documents originating from his

22     hospital were admitted through this witness, I wonder perhaps -- should

23     we have also introduced documents looking from some other hospital?  I

24     don't know which hospital this comes from.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5469

 1        Q.   It says "Military Post," doctor, does it not, up here?

 2        A.   Where?  Can you direct me to the spot you're looking at?

 3        Q.   Well, the longest column, "Findings," "Opinions" -- no, and now

 4     it says, the first column.  It says: "Names," "Military post," and

 5     "place."  Describe -- or, rather, write the personal identification

 6     number -- can you see that, above the names, themselves?  It says

 7     "Military Post" there, does it not?

 8        A.   Yes, "Military Post, "Place," and "Address," and, of course, all

 9     the other details concerning patients.

10        Q.   Who does this document belong to?

11        A.   This is a medical document.  It's a universal medical document.

12     It doesn't say who it belongs to, but it's standard.  This is something

13     that we referred to during the earlier sessions, that we needed to have

14     the patient's particulars; name, last name, address.  We had to know

15     whether the person was a civilian, what his occupation was, if he was a

16     serviceman, what the details were, et cetera.

17        Q.   And which hospital is this, Doctor?

18        A.   I think it's the State Hospital.

19        Q.   And that's the document there?

20        A.   Well, you see the protocol is the same.  If you don't have a

21     signature, if you don't have a stamp, you won't know who it belongs to,

22     because the templates -- the forms are always the same.  But I believe

23     that this belonged to the State Hospital.

24        Q.   Very well.  Can we, based on the wounds described herein, draw

25     conclusions as to who inflicted them?

Page 5470

 1        A.   We cannot.  A wound is a wound.  We can approximately tell

 2     whether the wound was the result of a shell shrapnel or anything else,

 3     but we can't establish that.  This would be beyond my powers and beyond

 4     my role.

 5        Q.   A general question, Doctor:  How many post-mortems can a doctor

 6     carry out during the course of a single day?  Forensic or pathology, they

 7     are very similar, aren't they?

 8        A.   Yes, they are very similar; I agree.  It depends on the doctor,

 9     it depends on his knowledge, on his skill, on his motives.  It's very

10     hard to say.  He can carry out post-mortems all night.

11        Q.   So if he works all day, how many can he carry out?

12        A.   Say, 10 to 15, no doubt about that.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             I don't know how much time I have left, Your Excellencies, so I'm

15     cutting things short.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I'm advised that you will have about an additional

17     15 minutes, but I'm of the impression that you can conclude in 5 minutes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then I have to deal with

19     fewer documents.

20             1D2120.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Doctor, did you know Vesna Pagon?

23        A.   No.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have that document, please?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give the number again?

Page 5471

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2120.

 2             I don't know whether we have a translation, but it bears an OTP

 3     number -- an ERN number, rather.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Doctor, can you have a look at this.  Do you agree that this is

 6     Vesna Pagon, and it says that she has a Master's Degree in Pharmacology

 7     and that she worked in the pharmacy of the former Military Hospital of

 8     Sarajevo?  Do you agree that that's what it says in the first paragraph?

 9        A.   Yes, that's what it says here, but I don't know the lady.

10        Q.   All right.  Let's see what this lady doctor says.  I shall

11     interpret it, and you check on what I'm saying.

12             So this is an interview at the State Security Service, at the

13     Department of Novo Sarajevo.  The date is the 8th of October, 1994.  This

14     lady says that she crossed over to the Serb territory through

15     Kabil Amra, through the Commission for the Exchange of Civilians,

16     and she was -- that person was Deputy of Amor Masovic.  And then

17     she says that the situation in the Military Hospital culminated because

18     there are too few people working there, and doctors who are not

19     professional enough are in different positions in the hospital.  She

20     gave, as a good example, Dr. Nakas, Abdulah, who protects Serb personnel

21     who still work there.  He is an eminent doctor, but he doesn't have

22     support because he's not a member of the SDA.  She says that Nakas is

23     still in touch with doctors of Serb ethnicity, his former colleagues, who

24     are now in Serb territory.  As for his brother, Nakas, Bakir, she says

25     that as opposed to Abdulah, he's turned into a major fundamentalist, on

Page 5472

 1     account of which he clashes frequently with his brother.  As for ethnic

 2     Serbs who still work at the hospital, Vesna says that there are only

 3     about 30 of them left and they all want to leave Sarajevo and to cross

 4     over into Serb territory.  Ethnic Muslim doctors are trying to prevent

 5     that in every conceivable way, and if somebody leaves all of a sudden,

 6     they say that it will not be a good thing, it causes panic in the

 7     hospital.  They say it's not good if all the Serbs leave, because they

 8     are quite professional and they do their job professionally.

 9             Do you know who it was that left?

10        A.   I don't know exactly now, but perhaps I can give a comment in

11     respect of what you quoted just now.

12             This is what I can say:  I express my great dissatisfaction in

13     relation to this document.  I don't know what to call it.  It absolutely

14     does not correspond to the truth.

15             Dr. Abdulah Nakas was a doctor, first and foremost, who helped

16     everyone, irrespectively.  Dr. Bakir Nakas was the manager of the

17     hospital throughout and, as I said earlier on, he has enormous merit, in

18     terms of keeping the hospital going.  I did not notice anything extremely

19     nationalist about any of these doctors.

20             However, in respect of this pharmacist, I have to say the

21     following:  The first three surgeons at the State Hospital, after they

22     left the JNA - one was a Montenegrin, another one was a Serb, and one was

23     a Muslim, too - the chief of the group of Internal Medicine in our

24     hospital was a Slovak, so this was really a multi-ethnic group of people

25     and multi-religious as well.  This was our main characteristic that we

Page 5473

 1     preserved throughout the war.  That is why I think that we survived as

 2     such, and we were always guided by the idea of anti-fascism.

 3             As for these qualifications that I read here, I categorically

 4     renounce them and they do not correspond to the truth.

 5        Q.   If you were guided by the idea of anti-fascism, are you talking

 6     about the Second World War or this war?

 7        A.   This war, Dr. Karadzic.

 8        Q.   Who was a fascist, Doctor?  Who was it that you fought against?

 9        A.   We fought against aggression, against a terrible aggression that

10     went on for 44 months incessantly, without interruption.  That's what I'm

11     talking about.

12        Q.   Who carried out an aggression against who?

13        A.   Well, if you're shelling an area all the time, and if people

14     cannot leave that territory, it is well known who it is that is carrying

15     out this aggression.  You don't have to be terribly clever to realise who

16     it is.  After all, you can ask all the many foreign observers who were

17     there; professional monitors in UNPROFOR, then the European monitors.

18     Then you should ask the media who were present in Sarajevo.  I think they

19     know that full well, and I think that they presented it very well, too.

20        Q.   Doctor, would you accept the formulation of the Security Council

21     of the United Nations with regard to this particular topic?

22        A.   You would have to give me an actual quotation so that I would

23     know whether to accept that or not.

24        Q.   Is there anyone competent there?  You spoke of international

25     factors.  Is there anyone who has greater competence than the Security

Page 5474

 1     Council of the UN, and the Security Council said that this was a tragic

 2     conflict, not an aggression?

 3        A.   I, as an individual, cannot accept that as a conflict, because a

 4     conflict has -- goes on over a definite period of time, not over 44

 5     months.

 6        Q.   Conflicts can go on for 30 years and 100 years.  There are wars

 7     that went on for a hundred years.

 8        A.   Well, wars, yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  I don't know how long the Court wants to encourage

11     this particular debate to continue.

12             JUDGE KWON:  It ended, I think.  Are you --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, debate.  The doctor says

14     something that cannot remain unchallenged.  He says something that is

15     new.  He gives his opinion as if he were an expert here, and I have to

16     put it to him that the United Nations, that he referred to, termed the

17     conflict in a different way.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

19        Q.   So, all right, Doctor.  Do you know how many doctors from

20     Sarajevo left Sarajevo, as a whole?

21        A.   I don't have that exact figure, but a considerable number.

22        Q.   You mentioned at one point that you had heard that

23     Professor Najdanovic got killed.  Was he your professor too?

24        A.   Yes, yes, he was.

25        Q.   Do you know that Professor Najdanovic was stabbed, beaten up, and

Page 5475

 1     thrown into a garbage container?

 2        A.   I had never heard of that before I heard it from you just now.

 3        Q.   Did you ever mention that he was a member of the SDS?

 4        A.   I think he was, yes.  He was quite active in 1991, when the

 5     multi-party system was developing in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I think he was

 6     one of the SDS leaders, if I remember correctly.

 7        Q.   Do you know that he was a federal MP in the Federal Parliament of

 8     Yugoslavia and also a republican MP in the Joint Assembly of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   I didn't know about the federal level, but I think he was an MP

11     at republican level.

12        Q.   When you say, I heard that he got killed, but he was a member of

13     the SDS, is that a sufficient reason for an eminent professor, a great

14     doctor, a wonderful man, married to a Jewish lady, now that we're on the

15     subject, is that reason enough for him to be killed and to be thrown into

16     a garbage dump, a container?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour --

20             JUDGE KWON:  I will hear from you first, Ms. Sutherland.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that wasn't what the witness said.

22     And if Mr. Karadzic is going to put something the witness said to him, he

23     needs to -- he needs to say exactly what the witness said.

24             In the supplementary information sheet that was provided to

25     Mr. Karadzic, of the 14th of July, 2010, the witness -- it states that:

Page 5476

 1     he stated -- when asked about Professor Dr. Najdanovic, Dr. Mirko Sosic,

 2     and Marko Vukovic, he stated that they all worked at the Sarajevo

 3     University Clinical Centre and were members of the SDS.  The witness

 4     stated that he heard that Professor Dr. Najdanovic died but did not know

 5     the circumstances of his death.

 6             He didn't say what Mr. Karadzic just put to him, that he died and

 7     he was a member of the SDS and so that's okay.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, how much longer do you have?  Conclude

 9     in three minutes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Three minutes, I'll conclude in

11     three minutes.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   All right, Doctor.  Why did you find it necessary to say that

14     they were members of the SDS in relation to their flight from Sarajevo

15     and in relation to the death of Dr. Najdanovic?

16        A.   Mr. Karadzic, that has nothing to do with their flight from

17     Sarajevo.  I referred to 1991 and the period of extensive activity of the

18     political parties that were being established after the disintegration of

19     Yugoslavia.  One of these parties was the SDS, that was all.

20        Q.   How was it that you found out that Sosic and Vukovic were members

21     of the SDS when they were never members of the SDS?

22        A.   I did not say that they were members of the SDS.  As a matter of

23     fact, I said that I thought that Najdanovic was a member of the SDS.

24     Sosic and Vukovic worked at the centre and perhaps they were members

25     of the SDS, perhaps they weren't.

Page 5477

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you admit this statement?

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   And in the meantime, Doctor, with the permission of the

 4     Trial Chamber, I'm going to remind you of an anecdote, as they say:  That

 5     all Jews and all cyclists are going to be arrested, and people say, why

 6     cyclists?  See, so nobody asks, why Jews.

 7             So you're doing the same thing with the SDS, since you said

 8     members -- that they were members of the SDS.

 9        A.   I have nothing to do with the SDS.  I have nothing to do with

10     Professor Najdanovic.  I really cannot give you proper answers to that

11     question.

12             JUDGE KWON:  According to our consistent guide-line, we'll not

13     admit this previous statement of Vesna Pagon, which the witness did not

14     confirm any content of the document.  It's a third party's document.

15     We'll not admit that.

16             Yes, Ms. Sutherland, did you have something else?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I was just going to say that Dr. Karadzic should

18     refrain from making those sorts of comments.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you are concluded.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any redirect examination,

22     Ms. Sutherland?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  How much longer?

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Five minutes, but I think --

Page 5478

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not quite sure whether we can continue.  We

 2     started almost at 20 to.  I think we can go on about five minutes.  If

 3     you're confident in concluding in five minutes, I think we can go on.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 6                           Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

 7        Q.   Dr. Mandilovic, Mr. Karadzic put to you, on page 69, starting at

 8     line 24 -- he asked you, had you reviewed all of the material shown to

 9     you by the Prosecution.  And your answer was:

10             "Well, it was very voluminous.  I don't know if I've seen

11     everything but I've seen a large part of it, and I stand by what I said."

12             Just to be clear, if we can go to your amalgamated witness

13     statement, which is Exhibit P1217.

14             First of all, were you talking about the documentation, as a

15     whole, the medical records the Prosecution holds or, in particular, the

16     documents that you were particularly shown by the Prosecution?

17        A.   I'll tell you very briefly.

18             All the medical documents that you showed me and that the OTP

19     presented to me, I confirmed them and I stand by them.  As for the

20     document that appeared here, I'm not sure it was from the OTP or from the

21     Defence.  That's why there was a bit of a dilemma.  But I did not

22     challenge or contest the validity of the documents at any point.  All of

23     the documents were perfectly valid, perfectly proper, with stamps, with

24     the names of physicians, and diagnoses.  That is why there was a bit of

25     insecurity on my part.  If all of these documents come from the OTP, I

Page 5479

 1     reviewed all of them and I stand by them.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Dr. Mandilovic.  I have no further

 3     questions.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Dr. Mandilovic, that concludes your evidence.  Thank

 5     you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.  Now you are free to go.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, just one matter --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone, please.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry.

13             At the beginning of today's session, I took Your Honour to -- I

14     mentioned that Mr. Karadzic had referred to a previous witness's

15     testimony, and I just wanted to take to you that page.  And that was

16     page 5351, and it started at line 5.

17             And may I be excused, Your Honour, because we need to make way

18     for Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, who is taking the next witness.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Taking advantage of about two or three minutes, I

20     I'm minded to give a ruling in relation to the motion filed by

21     Mr. Karadzic on 16 July 2010 to exclude evidence of unscheduled shelling

22     incidents from the testimony of Ekrem Suljevic, who is due to testify

23     later this week.

24             The Chamber has considered the submissions made in that motion,

25     as well as in the Prosecution's response thereto filed on 19th July 2010,

Page 5480

 1     to determine whether it should exclude parts of Mr. Suljevic's testimony

 2     that go to shelling incidents in Sarajevo in the period relevant to the

 3     indictment, but which are not specifically listed in Schedule G to the

 4     indictment.

 5             The accused has noted that the Chamber's decision on the fifth

 6     Prosecution motion for judicial notice of adjudicated facts, which

 7     declined judicial notice of a number of facts relating to such

 8     unscheduled incidents and argues that a similar approach should be taken

 9     to the evidence of Mr. Suljevic.  However, decisions on the relevance of

10     certain evidence to these proceedings are made on the basis of

11     considerations that are not coterminous with those that apply when

12     deciding to take judicial notice of adjudicated facts.

13             Moreover, as noted by the Prosecution, the Trial Chamber has

14     previously permitted evidence to be led concerning incidents and events

15     in Sarajevo which are not listed in one of these schedules to the

16     indictment, on the basis that such evidence may go to establishing the

17     necessary general requirements for crimes against humanity or to the

18     elements of some of the underlying offences.

19             The Chamber emphasised that detailed evidence going to specific

20     incidents which are not listed in the indictment or its schedules is

21     unhelpful, as the Chamber would not ultimately be making beyond

22     reasonable doubt findings as to the responsibility of the accused for

23     such specific incidents.  Having reviewed the proposed Rule 92 ter

24     statements of Ekrem Suljevic in this light, the Chamber does not consider

25     it necessary or appropriate to exclude parts thereof at this stage.

Page 5481

 1     However, it advises the Prosecution to be rigorous in its selection of

 2     those exhibits to tender through Mr. Suljevic and to avoid those that

 3     provide great amounts of detail about incidents which are not listed in

 4     Schedule G of the indictment.

 5             With this warning, the Chamber hereby denies the accused's motion

 6     to exclude evidence of unscheduled shelling incidents.

 7             We'll now rise and we'll have a break for 25 minutes.  We'll

 8     resume at quarter to 6.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 5.18 p.m.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11                           --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon again to all.

13             Welcome to the Tribunal, General Abdel-Razek.

14             If you could take the solemn declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will tell

16     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  May God be my

17     witness.

18                           WITNESS:  HUSSEIN ABDEL-RAZEK

19                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Please make yourself comfortable, General.

21             Welcome back, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.  It's your witness.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

23                           Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

24        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  Please state your full name.

25        A.   Retired Major General Hussein Ali Abdel-Razek.

Page 5482

 1        Q.   General, you provided statements to the Office of the Prosecutor

 2     and also testified here at the Tribunal in the Galic case in 2002; is

 3     that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, correct.

 5        Q.   Today, we are only concerned with your statement of 16 July 2002

 6     and the corrections that you made to that statement at that time.

 7             General, have you had opportunity to review this particular

 8     statement when you came to the Tribunal this time?

 9        A.   Yes, I've had that opportunity.

10        Q.   Would you say that the statement of 16 July 2002 accurately

11     reflects the evidence you've provided to the Office of the Prosecutor?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   General, would you provide that same evidence to the Court if

14     questioned on the same matters here today?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender the

17     statement of 16 July 2002, as Exhibit 65 ter 08766 for admission under

18     Rule 92 ter.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it is admitted.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1258, Your Honours.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the Court's permission, I would now

22     read a short summary of the witness's evidence, as admitted.

23             General Abdel-Razek was commander of Sector Sarajevo of UNPROFOR

24     from 21st August 1992 to 20 February 1993.  During this time, he met with

25     civilian leaders of the warring factions, including the accused, as well

Page 5483

 1     as military officials, including Stanislav Galic, the commander of the

 2     Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and General Mladic.

 3             General Abdel-Razek regularly received reports from UN Military

 4     Observers about the constant shelling of the city by Serb forces and of

 5     sniping perpetrated against civilians.  In addition, the witness himself

 6     made observations of random shelling and specific targeting of civilians.

 7             General Abdel-Razek and other UN officials frequently protested

 8     to Bosnian Serb officials the sniping and shelling attacks; in

 9     particular, attacks against the main hospital, the bus station, the

10     market-place, and water lines.  UNPROFOR also made written complaints to

11     General Mladic and the accused.

12             Generals Galic and Mladic, as well as Karadzic, Plavsic,

13     Krajisnik, and Koljevic regularly denied that the Bosnian Serbs were

14     responsible for the shelling or sniping.  They claimed that the Bosnian

15     government forces shelled their own people to gain support from the

16     international community or that the VRS was only responding in

17     self-defence.

18             With respect to complaints about sniping against civilians at the

19     airport, in particular, General Galic said that the VRS would continue

20     this practice in order to stop all movements in that area.

21             General Abdel-Razek observed a functioning chain of command

22     within the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, headed by General Galic, who reported

23     to General Mladic.  SRK troops and subordinates of military groups

24     appeared to be professional, well-trained, and equipped.

25             In a meeting requested by the accused after the

Page 5484

 1     London Conference, the accused spoke to the witness about future borders

 2     and said that Muslims were to be removed from Serb territories and Serbs

 3     from Muslim territories.  On another occasion, the accused told

 4     General Abdel-Razek that the Serbs could not live together with the

 5     Muslims any longer.  The accused referred to historical events and said

 6     that they would not allow this to happen again and that they may not

 7     again have such a chance.

 8             Krajisnik, Plavsic and Generals Mladic and Gvero were present on

 9     that occasion and shared Karadzic's views.  The witness also attended a

10     meeting with Krajisnik, Koljevic, and Plavsic, where Krajisnik expressed

11     similar views on the issue of ethnic cleansing.

12             In a meeting on 2nd October 1992 with Ms. Plavsic,

13     General Abdel-Razek raised the issue of the expulsion of 300 Muslims from

14     Grbavica and the removal and detention of three Muslim drivers from a UN

15     convoy.  Typical of Bosnian Serb leadership responses to such protests,

16     Plavsic promised to look into these matters, but nothing ever resulted.

17             Your Honour, this concludes the summary, and I will now ask some

18     additional questions and also put some documents to the general.

19        Q.   General, you described your training and career in the

20     Egyptian Army from 1964 onwards in your statement.  Did your training and

21     career include the use of artillery and combined arms and tactics?

22        A.   Yes.  I have undergone all basic training in tactics, military

23     tactics, and I am certified as battalion or regiment commander, and I

24     have graduated from the Staff College and have obtained the highest level

25     of qualification.  I have participated in military manoeuvres within the

Page 5485

 1     Egyptian Army or in combined manoeuvres with other armed forces of other

 2     nations.  For a while, I was in charge of the combined armed manoeuvres

 3     with foreign forces.  I was involved in three wars with the Egyptian Army

 4     in Middle Eastern conflicts.

 5        Q.   Did you have experience in peacekeeping activities before coming

 6     to Sarajevo?

 7        A.   Yes.  Before joining my post in Sarajevo, I was part of the

 8     Military Observation Force in Angola for a full year.  Our role was to

 9     monitor the agreement between UNITA movement and the Angolan government

10     before being asked by the Secretary-General of the UN to lead the United

11     Nations forces in Sarajevo to replace General MacKenzie.

12        Q.   Now, in relation to the UNPROFOR mission, can you tell the Court

13     what your main sources of information were and whether they were

14     reliable?

15        A.   Yes.  I asked the -- asked the assistant secretary-general,

16     Mr. Marrack Goulding, when he personally asked me moved to Sarajevo, I

17     asked Mr. Goulding to provide me with some of the information that

18     related to the situation in the former Yugoslavia, especially in the

19     Sarajevo Sector, and he faxed me from New York, to Angola, several

20     documents that outlined the most recent developments and the situation on

21     the ground in Sarajevo.  And he mentioned specifically to me the

22     suspension of flights, especially relief flights, to Sarajevo -- into

23     Sarajevo, but he assured me that these flights would be resumed, and

24     asked me to join -- or to go to Zagreb first and to meet with

25     General Nambiar, who was in command of the forces in Yugoslavia.  I also

Page 5486

 1     had the opportunity to meet with the ambassador of Serbia to Angola, and

 2     I was able to obtain sufficient information to allow me to start my

 3     mission in the country.

 4        Q.   And during your time in Sarajevo, what were your main sources of

 5     information?

 6        A.   According to the procedures of work within the United Nations,

 7     there are military observers based in various sectors where the situation

 8     was conflictual, and those military observers operated under the

 9     supervision of a commander, and this commander of the observer force

10     would communicate with me on the latest developments that occurred in the

11     various sectors.

12        Q.   General, you described in your statement your meetings with the

13     military commanders; in particular, General Galic.  And you also

14     mentioned that Ms. Plavsic took part in such meeting.  Why did she

15     attend, and what was her role during the meetings?

16        A.   I'm personally not aware why she was present, that is,

17     Ms. Plavsic.  When I used to ask for meetings with General Galic,

18     Ms. Plavsic attended these meetings.  And when the meetings took place in

19     several occasions, she used to lead the other side in the interventions.

20        Q.   From your observations during the meetings you had with the

21     Bosnian Serb political and military leaders, and from the information you

22     received, did the civilian and the military personnel pursue the same

23     objectives?

24        A.   Yes, I can say that with certainty.  And as I said, when

25     Ms. Plavsic attended, she was leading the other side, an intervention,

Page 5487

 1     and she was the main speaker -- the main interlocutor on the other side.

 2     And we, the military personnel, only contributed every now and then to

 3     issues relating to the military situation, but she led all the

 4     interventions from the other side.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would ask that Exhibit 10670 be brought up

 6     on the screen, please.

 7             And as it is coming up:  It is a fax from Mr. Goulding to the

 8     UNPROFOR Commander Nambiar, in Zagreb, of 28 August 1992, regarding the

 9     London Conference and the agreement achieved.

10             We have here the cover letter.  And the next page, please.

11        Q.   General, did you have the opportunity to study this document when

12     you came to The Hague?

13        A.   No, I did not have the opportunity to see this document before my

14     arrival, but I was made aware of its presence by General Nambiar when he

15     received me upon assuming my responsibility.  He met with all the sector

16     chiefs, including myself, and he informed me that during the

17     London Conference there was agreement reached with the Serbian side, and

18     the Serbian side had expressed the desire to reach a -- conclude an

19     agreement with the United Nations, and that the United Nations take

20     responsibility of the collection of heavy weapons.  But I have not seen

21     that document before my arrival in The Hague this time.

22        Q.   And were you aware of what Dr. Karadzic and Dr. Koljevic had

23     agreed upon, as it is stated here in that main paragraph in the document,

24     that is, heavy weapons to be grouped around the four towns, weaponry

25     grouped -- the Bosnian Serb would expect the Bosnian government to take

Page 5488

 1     reciprocal action, and so on and so forth?  Were you made aware of this?

 2        A.   In fact, I felt there was optimism within the UN -- within UN

 3     circles when Dr. Karadzic declared, following the -- or in the wake of

 4     the London Conference, that these heavy weapons would be handed over, and

 5     I believe that was on the 11th of the month.  And there was indications

 6     that we need to get ourselves into a state of readiness to oversee -- to

 7     observe the hand-over of these weapons.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would request the admission

 9     of this exhibit into evidence.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1259.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would ask that Exhibit 65 ter 10622,

13     page 1, be brought up onto the screen, please, in both languages.

14             And as it is coming up:  It is a letter from the Sarajevo

15     Romanija Corps Command of 30 August, 1992, to all units of the corps,

16     providing a report about the London Conference on 26 and 27 of August,

17     1992.

18        Q.   General, in your talks with the Prosecution personnel the last

19     two days, did you have an opportunity to read this document?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   It says here, on the first page -- it says here, in the second

22     paragraph:

23             "... you are obliged to acquaint all members of the units under

24     your command with its content, and especially to pay close attention to

25     the consistent implementation of the recommended measures in the units

Page 5489

 1     and commands at the end of the report."

 2             General, given your experience as a military commander, are

 3     troops pre-briefed in the way described here in this document about

 4     agreements made by political bodies?  Is that a regular procedure or not?

 5        A.   In some countries, there is such a policy where military

 6     instructions have this political element incorporated into it to make

 7     commanders aware of what led to that decision.  I would say that there is

 8     a possibility such instructions are given, that is to say, political

 9     instructions to military commanders, if the situation is very complex or

10     very precarious.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we have the last page, please, in both

12     languages.

13        Q.   General, you see here that Assistant Commander General Gvero is

14     signing this report.  Did you meet this commander in your talks?

15        A.   I would only meet with General Gvero in the presence of

16     General Mladic in the course of the meetings of the joint military

17     committee, whereby senior military commanders from the three sides would

18     meet in the airport under the facilitation or the co-ordination of

19     General Morillon.  So that's the only time where I met General Gvero.

20        Q.   And in paragraph 8 on that same page, a bit higher up, it says:

21             "Ensure that all measures which the Serbian republic's delegation

22     pledged to carry out or that arise from the conference documents are

23     consistently implemented."

24             General, did you see this order being implemented on the ground?

25        A.   In fact, no, and that's why I raised this issue with

Page 5490

 1     Mr. Karadzic.  And he explained to me, when I met him in Pale, that that

 2     was not the case, but he made it clear to me that was not what he

 3     intended to say or what he said was misinterpreted, and that the United

 4     Nations would only oversee the process, and that the UN would not be

 5     involved in handling weapons physically.  He said that 11 points --

 6     collection points were designated, and that designation of the 11 points

 7     would allow the UN to see what's happened in these 11 points.  In fact,

 8     this did not materialise, and a lot of the issues that we were hoping or

 9     would like to have happen did not take -- did not materialise.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request the admission of this

11     document.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P1260.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we now have Exhibit 65 ter 10671 be

15     brought up.

16             And as it is coming up:  It is a code cable of General Nambiar to

17     Mr. Goulding of 14 September 1992, and a report attached regarding a

18     meeting with Dr. Karadzic and Colonel Siber.

19             Can we have the -- that's the cover letter.  Can we have the next

20     page, please.

21        Q.   General, is this a report that you made?

22        A.   Yes, I recall that this report existed.

23        Q.   Is the report a correct reflection of the meeting that you had

24     with Dr. Karadzic?

25        A.   The meeting was shrouded in optimism, to start with, and I felt

Page 5491

 1     that we were going to proceed with the collection of weapons.  However, I

 2     noticed that the Serbian side was determined to retain these weapons, and

 3     I remember that they mentioned a reason for that.  They said that the

 4     Muslim side outnumbered them, and that's why they needed to have the

 5     heavy weapons to counter-balance that numerical superiority.  And I

 6     remember Mr. Karadzic was full of optimism, himself, and he was talking

 7     about steps of showing hope of improving the situation.  He was talking

 8     about providing oxygen cylinders for the hospital.  So that's what we

 9     were all hoping to achieve after the process.

10        Q.   Under B, it refers to Dr. Karadzic's opinion not to have the

11     Egyptian troops involved in the monitoring.  Why was that?  Did he give

12     you an explanation why?

13        A.   This opinion was not expressed to me directly or openly, but I

14     believe he expressed that opinion to General Nambiar.

15        Q.   And why was that?  Do you know why he had some reservations?

16        A.   My understanding from him at a later stage, that had to do with

17     the security situation.  He gave the impression that his own people in

18     certain instances would not accept Egyptian troops because of their

19     faith, because of their leanings, and he thought that they would be --

20     they would not be safe being present on Serb territory.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would now -- Your Honour, I request the

22     admission of this document.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit P1261.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would now like to ask Exhibit P1004 be

Page 5492

 1     brought up, the first page in both languages.

 2             And as this is being brought up:  It is an order from the

 3     commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, dated 5th September 1992,

 4     related to the preparation for a meeting with the political leadership on

 5     6 September.

 6        Q.   General, did you have an opportunity to review this document when

 7     you came here in the last two days?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The second page, please, in the English.

10     The B/C/S is correct as it is now.

11        Q.   It refers here to where the meeting is supposed to take place.

12     It says here "Rajska Valley, Jahorina Mountain."  Do you know what place

13     that is --

14        A.   Yes, and we did meet once before in this position with

15     Ms. Plavsic and the Serbian delegation.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, this document was admitted in

17     the decision on Prosecution submission on the relevancy of certain

18     documents relating to the testimony of Richard Philipps, dated 9 July

19     2010, a source document.  I request the admission of this exhibit into

20     evidence now for all purposes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your notice.  It well-noted.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And it will be admitted as you indicated.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             I would ask that Exhibit P2006 be brought up onto the screen, and

Page 5493

 1     the first page in both languages, please.  1006.  Did I say something

 2     differently?  I'm sorry, 1006.  I misspoke.

 3             And as this is being brought up:  It is a document from the

 4     commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, dated 12 September 1992, to the

 5     corps's rear command post, and it relates to the 6 September meeting and

 6     task list.

 7        Q.   General, did you also review this document while -- during the

 8     last two days here in The Hague?

 9        A.   Yes, we did.

10        Q.   In paragraph 3 - that's at the bottom in both languages - it

11     says:

12             "Ensure absolute agreement and unity with the civilian

13     authorities and MUP forces at all levels.  Eliminate the creation of any

14     paramilitary units or para-political groups, and eliminate any squabbles

15     because we have the same goal."

16             General, did you observe such co-operation as is requested here

17     on the ground?

18        A.   Yes.  There were serious attempts that I noted within the

19     Romanija Corps, and they were trying to put control on the paramilitary

20     forces in the region because some of these forces were creating many

21     problems, because they did not enjoy the same level of discipline that

22     military -- regular military forces demonstrate.  Some of them acted in

23     light of their own emotions.  And, of course, such instructions should be

24     given in order to provide for unity and for lack of discipline or

25     disobedience against orders issued by the commanders.

Page 5494

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And can we have the next page, please, in

 2     both languages.

 3        Q.   And in paragraph 9, it says here:

 4             "Study all the requests made by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps

 5     commander and the civilian authorities, and do everything possible to act

 6     on them ..."

 7             General, as a military officer with experience in combat, do you

 8     have any comment on the fact that the rear command post is requested to

 9     respond to requests of the civilian authorities?  Is there something --

10     is that special?

11        A.   According to my experience, I can say this was a civil war that

12     took place in residential areas, and I expect that such instructions can

13     be given to military commanders to co-operate more closely with civilian

14     authorities in order to impose control and discipline on different parts

15     of the country.  And I can accept that such instructions be given in such

16     a manner.

17        Q.   And further on --

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The next page, please, the next page, in the

19     English as well.

20        Q.   And here, if we look at paragraph 16, it says here -- it refers

21     here to the Ministry of Interior and the

22     Intelligence/Security Administration, and that they should make a plan.

23             General, do you -- did you see co-operation between the military

24     forces and the police on the ground?

25        A.   I cannot say this with certainty because I was not directly

Page 5495

 1     involved in the field.  However, in some locations I saw a degree of

 2     co-operation.  And if we take Ilidza, we found, in certain command posts,

 3     many military and civilian personnel using the same rationale and acting

 4     in accordance with the guide-lines of the leadership.  But in other

 5     places, we found matters to be completely different and each party did as

 6     it willed.  Therefore, I cannot say this was specifically the case,

 7     because I was not everywhere.  I can only speak of those locations that I

 8     visited.  And I based my impression on what I saw.  In some cases, they

 9     were in compliance with what we call discipline, and in other places,

10     they were not.

11        Q.   And in paragraph 18, it refers here to the behaviour towards the

12     UNPROFOR and journalists.  Was that reflected on the ground, this polite

13     and correct behaviour towards UNPROFOR?

14        A.   In fact, from the Serbian side and from the other parties, we

15     were met with respect and warm hospitality and good arrangements for our

16     meetings.  But as I said earlier, the problem was always in the field,

17     when we went to the field.  Many of what -- of the arrangements we put in

18     place and what we agreed on were not strictly adhered to in the field.

19     On the contrary, we found that there was a degree of non-discipline by

20     certain soldiers, certain individuals in the field.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, this is another of the Philipps

22     documents, and I would now like to tender it for all purposes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  [Indiscernible]

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would now ask for Exhibit 65 ter 09083 be

25     brought up on the screen.

Page 5496

 1             And as it is coming up:  It is an order of Commander Galic to the

 2     Sarajevo Romanija Corps, dated 16 November 1992, to all units.

 3        Q.   And in the first paragraph, it refers to a call from

 4     Professor Koljevic, requesting assistance from the SRK in manpower for

 5     the Herzegovina Corps for Nevesinje.  And then following under "Order,"

 6     we see that the Ilidza Brigade and other units are requested to make

 7     fighters available.

 8             Did General, did you see this document as well in the last two

 9     days?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And as you have mentioned that you met Mr. Koljevic several

12     times, to your knowledge, was he in a position to make requests to the

13     Bosnian Serb Army?

14        A.   In fact, I do not know what exactly is the competence of the

15     senior or lower commanders in these forces, but I often discussed with

16     them matters related to civilian affairs.  Therefore, this document is

17     very strange for me, to have a command to General Galic in this manner.

18     I believe these matters are up to them, and these were not matters I was

19     involved with.  There may be a delegation from the senior command to

20     Mr. Koljevic to present such orders.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request the admittance of

22     this document.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

24             I think this one goes outside of your guide-lines, in the sense

25     that the witness really couldn't speak to this.

Page 5497

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Let me then ask a few more questions.

 2        Q.   Professor Koljevic, which role did he have, to your knowledge?

 3        A.   Usually, Mr. Koljevic accompanied Mr. Karadzic, and I thought

 4     that he always addressed supreme political issues and was not involved in

 5     tactical matters and in military matters.  And what I find strange in

 6     this document is that it is related to a military command, and I would

 7     ask:  Where is General Mladic, who is the professional person of

 8     competence?  For the Serbian corps, they should be getting their orders

 9     from General Mladic.  Therefore, I did not know what exactly were the

10     mandates given to them.  This is some matter related to the Serbian side

11     that I was not aware of.

12        Q.   An order given by a political leader in this way and responded

13     to, would that be outside the regular chain of command?

14        A.   I would say somebody has drafted this report in this military

15     language.  Perhaps Mr. Koljevic gave a general -- a broad guide-line, but

16     then military leaders drafted it and he just signed his name.  So I do

17     not know how this reached Galic.  Was it delivered to him by telephone or

18     in the form of a letter, I do not know exactly.  But I would imagine,

19     from the text of these orders, this is a simple military order.  It does

20     not require a very high military professionalism.  It is just a request

21     for support from this sector to a certain quarter.  It does not go into

22     many technical details related to military issues.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I still request the admittance

24     of this document as evidence.  And it relates, in fact, to the evidence

25     of this witness, who has stated here so far of the close co-operation

Page 5498

 1     between the military and the political leadership, and, therefore,

 2     I think it falls within the guide-lines of this Court.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we do maintain our objection, and,

 4     in principle, there's nothing objectionable about the document, itself.

 5     And with the proper witness or under other more relaxed guide-lines, the

 6     document could be admitted.  But if this kind of standard that's being

 7     applied to the Defence documents, I think if it's going to be applied

 8     equally, this is not a witness who could speak to this.  And, in general,

 9     civilian and -- any document -- military document which mentions contact

10     with a civilian official is considered to be -- can be admitted under the

11     same kind of argument that Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff has made.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, did you have something to say?

13             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers]

15             MR. TIGER:  I was going to say that Mr. Robinson was not here for

16     the entirety of the testimony of Mr. Mandic, during which a battery of

17     documents were presented and admitted with -- well, military documents,

18     in particular, by -- during the course of an examination of a witness

19     who, at various times, purported to have very little information about

20     the military chain of command.  I raise that because contrary to

21     Mr. Robinson's suggestion that there's some lack of equality here,

22     documents have been coming in because of some form of contextualisation.

23     I believe this witness has provided more than ample contextualisation in

24     that context.  And I believe if Mr. Robinson would take the opportunity

25     to review the entirety of the documentation that was admitted during the

Page 5499

 1     course of that examination, he would see that there is no imbalance here,

 2     but that this document would properly come in under the same approach

 3     that was used previously.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  What is also important is the consistent application

 5     of the guide-line.  While the witness testified to the close relation

 6     between the civilian authority and the military leaders, he was not aware

 7     of this incident, and then he cannot assist the Chamber in relation to

 8     this document.

 9             Certainly, this document can be a subject of further Bar table

10     motion later on, but as I indicated, to apply the guide-line consistently

11     we'll not admit this at this time.

12             Let's move on.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  General --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say a word, by your

15     leave?

16             JUDGE KWON:  I gave our ruling.  In relation to this one?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The problem is in the translation.

18     Had it said "appeal" instead of "call," the meaning would have been

19     completely different as for this document.  "Appeal," "appeal" is the

20     word that should have been used.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             Let's move on, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   General, you described throughout your statement meeting with

25     Dr. Karadzic and other members of the Bosnian Serb leadership.  During

Page 5500

 1     such meetings, what role would Dr. Karadzic have?

 2        A.   Dr. Karadzic represented the head of the Bosnian Serbs or the

 3     head of the party, and he was at the top of the decisions related to the

 4     Bosnian Serbs.  And, therefore, I always was concerned to meet with the

 5     relevant parties to be able to arrive with them at agreements that would

 6     facilitate the work of the United Nations, and, through them, to have the

 7     decisions reached that would affect those working in the field so that

 8     they will co-operate with us in the Sarajevo Sector.  He represented the

 9     leader of the Bosnian Serbs.

10        Q.   And, General, you also mentioned meetings with both Mr. Karadzic

11     and General Mladic in attendance.  In such meetings when they were both

12     together, what role would Dr. Karadzic have in such meetings?

13        A.   As I said, I would attend these meetings carrying with me a

14     number of points to discuss with them in order to arrive at decisions

15     related to the operations of the United Nations.  In some cases, I would

16     take with me certain claims that were reported to me, claims from the

17     other parties, to raise in this meeting and to hear the response.  And I

18     would act the role of a mediator, I would play this role, although it

19     wasn't one of my core competences, yet I did this voluntarily in order to

20     help facilitate operations of the United Nations.  I tried to build a

21     degree of confidence with the parties in order to be successful in our

22     work in the Sarajevo Sector.  Therefore, he was always the spokesperson,

23     and he had his assistants mentioned earlier by me.  Some of them would

24     sometimes give some comment, and this is normal.  However, the head of a

25     delegation usually consults with his assistants before responding to

Page 5501

 1     certain points.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   And did you have opportunity to observe General Galic among his

 3     troops?  And if so, how would they behave towards him?

 4        A.   I would notice him at his command centre.  I would not go to the

 5     field.  I would meet him at his headquarters in Lukavica.  I know that

 6     there matters were run professionally towards command headquarters, and

 7     there were officers there who were co-operating with them, and I would

 8     describe relations as professional.  However, I did not have the

 9     opportunity to see him among his soldiers, among the front-lines, or

10     other such places in the field.

11        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to observe General Mladic with

12     other generals and his subordinate commanders?

13        A.   Yes.  Mr. Mladic would come to meetings of the joint military

14     group, surrounded by his assistants, and I would note his strength and

15     control.  You can see him as a -- and as a military man, I can judge such

16     matters.  I felt him to be a strong man among his assistants.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, a few questions on the Sarajevo shelling.

18             And I would ask that Exhibit 65 ter 10816 be brought up.

19             And as it is coming up:  We have here a note for Mr. Thornberry,

20     dated 8 October 1992, related to the situation in Sarajevo.

21             Do you know who made this note?

22        A.   If this is related to Mr. Thornberry, I believe the person

23     concerned is the Civilian Affairs adviser in the sector command.  It

24     could be Mr. Adnan Abdel-Razek, perhaps, and there is always a confusion

25     or misunderstanding between our names because we have the same family

Page 5502

 1     name.  Mr. Adnan Abdel-Razek was an adviser for the sector commander for

 2     civilian affairs and within the liaison with Mr. Thornberry.  He should

 3     send him the report, but he would present the report to me before sending

 4     it.  Mr. Thornberry would collect his report from the different advisers

 5     on civilian affairs, and then it would go to Mr. Nambiar.

 6        Q.   It says here -- in paragraph 1, it says:

 7             "The general mood of Sarajevo people has reached the lowest level

 8     that I have seen since last April.  The lack of water and electricity,

 9     together with the continuing shelling of civilian targets, have pushed

10     people to their edge of tolerance and caused a high degree of despair and

11     aggressiveness.  People are lining up to leave the city."

12             General, is that an accurate description of the situation of the

13     people in Sarajevo at that time?

14        A.   Taking the date into account, I would say, yes, definitely; not

15     only the population, but also the United Nations.  Everyone was in

16     despair, for the city was besieged and there was shelling and sniping and

17     roadblocks and killing, and everybody was in this mood.  And I found

18     these feelings to be normal, in light of the situation.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request the admission of this

20     document.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

24             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  We don't object to the admission of the document,

Page 5503

 1     but I think it ought to be clarified whether this witness is the author,

 2     because since he refers to "last April," and then this witness had only

 3     arrived in August, I think it's the other Abdel-Razek who was the author

 4     of the document, and that ought to be clarified; although, we don't have

 5     any objections since he confirmed part of the document.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Did he not clarify that issue?

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I think he said --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, he said there was confusion.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, he said there had been confusion among the

10     two of them, but I didn't know that he was specifically directing that to

11     this particular document.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  The witness actually said that he

13     thinks it was Adnan Abdel-Razek.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Very well.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would now ask to show a very brief

16     video-clip, and it is 65 ter --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It is noted in page 108 from line 8.  This

18     will be admitted as P --

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1262, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  A short video, 65 ter 45025 and is -- please

22     be played, it's just a minute duration.  And, General, I would like you

23     to look at who you see in that video and whether you know where this

24     is -- what is happening there.

25             Yes, please.

Page 5504

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  But where's the voice?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Are we supposed to hear something?

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, we are supposed to hear Mr. Owen say

 5     something in English.  Can it be louder?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Or shall we try again?

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  I don't -- at least I heard him speak.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note that we don't have the

 9     transcript of this videotape.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The interpreter just said that they have the

11     transcript --

12             JUDGE KWON:  They don't.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Oh, they don't.  Sorry, I misheard.

14             Okay, then we can't have that.

15        Q.   But what you saw here, do you recall what event it is, when you

16     look at the people?

17        A.   Yes.  I, myself, co-ordinated this meeting upon the headquarters

18     in Zagreb, whereby Mr. Owen would be present to attend a meeting with

19     Mr. Karadzic and his aides.  I, myself, accompanied them to that meeting,

20     as you can see from the tape.  I remember well that was Mr. Owen,

21     accompanied with General Morillon, and I was, myself, representing the

22     United Nations.  And from the other side, I remember Mr. Karadzic was

23     there, General Mladic was also present, and Mr. Koljevic, if I remember

24     well, was also present.

25             This visit came as a result of the intensification of shelling

Page 5505

 1     and the complication and the exacerbation of the security situation,

 2     which culminated in the shelling on the hospital.  Mr. Owen visited the

 3     hospital and spent some time there and talked to the doctors, and he was

 4     briefed by them on the problems faced at the hospital.  And he carried

 5     from them a message to Mr. Karadzic, and that was the speech that we

 6     could not hear.

 7        Q.   In that speech, did Owen address -- Lord Owen address the

 8     shelling and --

 9        A.   He mentioned that he visited the hospital and he was affected by

10     the situation there, he was touched by the situation, but he was not

11     there to express any opposition as to what happened.  He was diplomatic

12     in his words, but he wanted to say that something wrong happened in the

13     situation there which culminated in the shelling of the hospital.  We

14     were all affected by the situation.  I, myself, visited the hospital, and

15     I saw for myself that the situation was so bad.  Mr. Owen also raised a

16     number of other topics, too.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I think we have to try a bit

18     later, whether we can hear it, because I really want to tender it.  But,

19     of course, that's not possible right now.

20             Can we please have Exhibit 65 ter 11350 brought up.

21             And it is an UNPROFOR report from sector commander to the force

22     commander in Zagreb, dated on 18 October 1992.

23        Q.   Is that your report about a flour mill damaged?

24        A.   I think, yes, there was a lack -- penury of supplies, and I do

25     remember that date very well.  And I think there was an appeal for help

Page 5506

 1     from the Bosnian side, because they were facing a dire situation because

 2     of the penury in food supplies in the city of Sarajevo.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  So I request the admission of this exhibit.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be admitted as

 6     Exhibit P1263.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would now also try another video.  I can

 8     only hope this time it works.  It's 65 ter 45015.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, it's -- at least there is a transcript

11     running.  Can we start again?

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would like to have played the section

14     00:09:52 to 00:11:25, and we would have to read what is actually here.

15             Your Honours, I just hear we have to come back to this as well

16     tomorrow because there is a wrong clip being used.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, thank you.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.  I'm sorry.

19             I would ask that Exhibit 65 ter 09922 be brought up.

20             And as it is coming up:  It is a very urgent order of

21     Commander Galic to all RSK units of 10 October 1992, and -- well, that's

22     wrong.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  It should be 09122.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  09122.  Oh, yeah, I misspoke.  Thank you.

25     Yes, that's the correct one.

Page 5507

 1             It is a very, very urgent order, as it says on top,

 2     Commander Galic to all RSK units of 10 October 1992 to stop firing on the

 3     city of Sarajevo, as it says in the header.  And it also states, in

 4     paragraph 2 -- there, it says that for using the heavy artillery,

 5     permission from the corps commander or his deputy is needed.

 6        Q.   General, did you have an opportunity to review this document

 7     within the last two days?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And if you recall, what was happening on the 10th of October in

10     Sarajevo that such an order would be given?  Do you recall that?

11        A.   I think that was in the aftermath of the intensive bombing and

12     shelling of Sarajevo, which led to a large number of casualties among the

13     civilians.  I did raise this question in many of the meetings I held with

14     the other side.  I think in October, that October, I noticed that there

15     was intensive shelling at different areas in Sarajevo.  I did raise this

16     question.

17             I think that was an order which was political in nature.  I don't

18     think that General Galic issued that order as a result of my protest

19     against it, but I think he received orders from his higher commands.

20     This could have been a result of a protest by Mr. Karadzic, thanks to the

21     letters that I carried, that such an order was issued.  As I see and you

22     see, this order called for some kind of a cease-fire, and that in case of

23     need, any forces can resort to the weapons at their disposal.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this

25     document.

Page 5508

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 3        Q.   In your statement, you referred also to this --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  That was admitted as Exhibit P1264.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   In your statement, you also referred to Bosnian Serb sniper

 7     activities.  And from the information you had and from your own

 8     observations, were these sniping activities random, or systematic, or

 9     both?

10        A.   I did not really understand the question.  What I understood is,

11     from a professional standpoint, I think no -- not everyone who carries a

12     gun is a sniper.  I think the snipers are chosen among highly-qualified

13     personnel and according to a plan devised by the command, the higher

14     command.  Not everyone who carries a gun can be considered a sniper.  So

15     the presence of snipers is decided upon a military plan that has been

16     adopted and agreed upon by the military commander.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would ask that Exhibit P1010

18     be brought up onto the screen, and it is another of Mr. Philipps'

19     documents.

20             JUDGE KWON:  It's a source document?

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, a source document.  It is an order of

22     the Deputy Commander Marcetic of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, of

23     4 November 1992, regarding designating locations for snipers.

24        Q.   Do you know this Colonel Marcetic?

25             Can we see the signature a bit --

Page 5509

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can you go a bit further down?  Oh, I think

 2     in -- yes.

 3        Q.   That's in the -- in the B/C/S version, you see "Dragan Marcetic."

 4     Do you know this colonel?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  He used to work with General Galic, and he used

 6     to attend some of the talks that we held there.

 7        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to study this document within the

 8     last two days?  And if so, what is it?  For a military man, what is it?

 9        A.   Please give me some time to look at this document to know what it

10     is.  I have seen a number of documents on snipers.

11             As you said, I think that goes along with what I said in the

12     past.  I think deploying snipers takes place in accordance with a plan

13     devised by the higher command, and I think this document goes in the same

14     sense that I have already explained.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would now like to have this

16     document admitted for all purposes.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And --

19             JUDGE KWON:  I note the time, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  How much longer would you be?

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, except for the two videos, I

23     have to more documents or -- yeah, two more documents.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll do it tomorrow.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 5510

 1             JUDGE KWON:  So, General, we'll adjourn for today.  We'll resume

 2     tomorrow at 9.00.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day of July,

 7                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.