1 Thursday, 30 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everybody.
6 Mr. Robinson, I was told that you have something to raise before
7 we begin.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.
9 Actually, I'd let Dr. Karadzic speak to this, but he's not well
10 today and not able to proceed, and we'll be asking the Chamber to adjourn
11 for the day because of his health situation. But I would like to ask him
12 to explain that directly to the Chamber in private session.
13 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll go into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 7200-7201 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 JUDGE KWON: And bring in the witness.
16 I'd like to note for the record the accused is not feeling well
17 today. He has kindly agreed to proceed with the first witness, and the
18 Chamber appreciates it very much. And the Chamber asks the Registry to
19 look into the matter with the greatest care. And also I have to note
20 that Mr. Karadzic agrees to let us know if he does not feel well in the
21 middle of his cross-examination.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Soja.
24 If you could take the solemn declaration, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: MILOMIR SOJA
3 [The witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please take a seat.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
9 Q. Good morning, sir.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Could you please state your full name.
12 A. My name is Milomir Soja.
13 Q. Mr. Soja, you testified in the trial against Dragomir Milosevic
14 on the 24th and 25th of April, 2007; is that correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review this testimony?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you affirm that the testimony accurately reflects the
19 evidence you provided to the Tribunal in 2007?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Soja, would you provide the same evidence to the Court if
22 questioned on the same matters here today?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to tender this
25 testimony as 65 ter 22611 for admission under Rule 92 ter.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it will be admitted.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1633, Your Honours.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the Court's permission, I would now
4 read a brief summary of the witness's evidence as admitted.
5 The witness is an electrical engineer.
6 Before the outbreak of the war, Mr. Soja was employed by
7 Energoinvest, in its power electronics department. The witness was
8 mobilised at the outbreak of the war in 1992. After his release from the
9 armed forces in December 1994, he took up his work obligation in the
10 company Energoinvest Automatika in Ilidza.
11 In the spring of 1995, Mr. Soja and one of his colleagues were
12 asked to go to the Pretis ammunition factory in Vogosca, Sarajevo,
13 regarding the modification of the ignition system for air-bomb launchers.
14 They were accompanied by an officer from the Ilidza Brigade of the VRS.
15 At Pretis, Mr. Soja met Major Krsmanovic, another officer of the
17 time, in addition to the launcher of the Ilidza Brigade, there were two
18 functional air-bomb launchers, one in Vogosca and the other in Ilijas.
19 Mr. Soja subsequently learned that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps also had
20 an air-bomb launcher in Blazuj.
21 Major Krsmanovic was opposed to the modification of the
22 launchers, since this would have rendered the equipment less reliable.
23 However, the witness was asked to perform modifications using
24 electronic components as the Ilidza Brigade intended to use this new
25 system on their air-bomb launcher.
1 The manufacturing of the new ignition system lasted until early
2 summer 1995. On several occasions, the witness had to attend to a
3 malfunctioning air-bomb launcher. In the summer of 1995, the witness was
4 requested to attend the launching of an air-bomb targeting the cold
5 storage plant in Stup from a launcher positioned under the overpass of
6 Kasindolska Street, close to the witness's work-place. From this cold
7 storage plant, the Bosnian government forces used to fire with small arms
8 into VRS-controlled territory.
9 The first attempted launch failed. That same evening, the
10 witness observed the launch of the air-bomb from a distance of about 150
11 metres. The air-bomb did not reach the cold storage plant, but exploded
12 prematurely on territory under the control of the VRS. During the
13 relevant time, Mr. Soja heard the launching and detonation of the
14 air-bombs about five to six times. There is a characteristic sound
15 connected with the launching and detonation of air-bombs.
16 Your Honour, this concludes the summary, and I have no further
17 questions and I have also no associated exhibits to tender.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
19 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Soja.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. I would like to thank you about meeting the Defence, and I
1 believe that that fact will speed the cross-examination along.
2 I would like to start with those things that we agreed about
3 during our interview, and those are the things -- or, rather, questions
4 to which you can answer with either yes or no. I'm going to word my
5 questions in that way.
6 The first question: Did we agree that you are familiar with
7 Ilidza because that's where you grew up?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you agree that the settlements predominantly settled with
10 Serbs were under the Serb control, and Muslim settlements were under the
11 Muslim control? Let's not mention Hrasnica, Butmir, and
12 Sokolovic Kolonija that were close to the Serbian settlements.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is it true that you - and you said it here - left Grbavica to go
15 home to Osijek
16 tensions started rising and when the shooting started?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. There is not as much as you can say about Grbavica as you can say
19 about Ilidza; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In your interview on 24 July 2004, you stated that there was no
22 military organisation in Osijek
23 A. No, at the beginning of the war, there was no militarisation
25 Q. You arrived in your village, therefore, and the local population
1 had already started holding arms close to their homes in order to prevent
2 attacks from the neighbouring Muslim villages; is that right?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. You said that the villagers guarded the village in shifts, and
5 when your turn came, you also held guard.
6 A. Yes, that's true, but at the beginning it was only during the
8 Q. You said that there were no line-ups, that there was no command
9 of any kind there; it was a spontaneous organisation based on the fear of
10 something that might happen to the village.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You helped me a lot, because I had already promoted general
13 chaos, and you introduced another helper of his, and that's fear. Until
14 mid-July, in your village and in Ilidza, were all your actions dictated
15 by fear from the other side?
16 A. I can't tell you how long that lasted, whether that lasted until
17 mid-June, and whether that was when certain elements of military
18 organisations were first introduced. But, in any case, for the best part
19 of that initial period, in my opinion, or at least that was my feeling,
20 was predominantly fueled by fear and uncertainty.
21 Q. Do you agree that the Serbs were not prepared because they had
22 relied on the state and the JNA to help them and to keep the enemy at
24 A. Well, I can speak on my behalf, and I can tell you that I was
25 taken absolutely by surprise, and people that I spoke to felt the same.
1 I can't speak in general terms. I can only tell you what I know and what
2 I felt.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 The word in the transcript is "the enemy," and I said "the other
5 side." I didn't mean the enemy, but never mind.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Is it true, what you said, that the guards service and later on
8 the front-line were only about 50 metres away from the houses, from the
10 A. In my case in Osijek
11 few months of the war, that was correct. The front-lines were not
12 military lines at all. We simply held guard close to the banks of the
13 river that surrounded our village, and the same was true throughout the
14 war of Ilidza, which throughout the war remained either on the front-line
15 or very close to it.
16 Q. Did we also agree that in Ilidza, itself, there were no Muslim
17 settlements that would be under the Serb control?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You also stated that the Serbs guarded the Osijek Muslims, that
20 they visited them, and that they encouraged them and promised them that
21 nobody would do them any harm, but they also expressed their fear that
22 some rogue elements or renegade elements might do them harm.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it true that that's why some Muslims left Osijek and exchanged
25 their property, and is it also true that the others stayed on and were
1 treated fairly by the authorities and by their Serb neighbours?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. Before the war, you were a reservist of the JNA, and like all the
4 other reservists, you brought the reserve uniform home, but you did not
5 bear any arms because your specialty was a multiple rocket-launcher.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did the Muslim and Serb reservists take uniforms and weapons home
8 in peacetime when they had attended manoeuvres, and they took uniforms
9 home and light infantry weapons as well?
10 A. I am sure that that was the case with the uniform. I, myself,
11 did not take weapons home.
12 Q. What about gas masks?
13 A. Yes, the same.
14 Q. Anything else, in terms of the equipment; the shovels or
16 A. I'm not sure about shovels. There was a duffle bag with a
17 uniform, a gas mask, eating utensils, the basic military utensils,
18 without weapons.
19 Q. When you say that people of Osijek organised themselves, and they
20 had mortars that they positioned on the hilltops around Osijek
21 A. I'm not sure that mortars existed before the first troops were
22 organised. I can't tell you even the date when the whole thing grew into
23 a military organisation. It more or less coincided with the first
24 so-called attacks against Ilidza. I don't know when the first mortars
25 appeared. I can't tell you.
1 Q. Do you agree that every local commune, including yours, had
2 Territorial Defence which was organised in accordance with the law, and
3 the Territorial Defence had its weapons?
4 A. Certainly. Each company and each local commune, according to the
5 law, had its unit of Territorial Defence, and I suppose that the unit
6 also had to have some kind of weapons.
7 Q. Were there any weapons that the factories and big companies had?
8 And in addition to Territorial Defence units, did they also have weapons
10 A. I suppose they did. I never saw them. But these units must have
11 existed, so I suppose that there had to have been appropriate weapons as
13 Q. Thank you. You were personally a member of a delegation which
14 toured the Osijek Muslims to try to relax them and to ease the tensions;
15 is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The authorities did not exert any pressure against the Osijek
18 Muslims; correct?
19 A. As far as I know, they did not, never.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please have a look at
21 a map. Mr. Soja could explain for us more easily, by referring to the
22 map, a specific incident between Energoinvest and the cold storage plant.
23 It should be best, the following section of the map. The ERN number is
24 0557-3368, section 9 of this map. It's a map of Sarajevo in which
25 separation lines are also marked.
1 JUDGE KWON: I think the 65 ter number is 09390C. And what page
2 is it? 09390C; correct? Yes, I see the nodding of Mr. Reid. Thank you.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it should actually be sheet 10,
4 where we see an industrial complex, if that's the map that Mr. Karadzic
5 would like to use.
6 JUDGE KWON: Sheet 9 or sheet 10?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sheet 10 is fine as well. If we
8 can zoom in around the part of the city close to the TV, because Mr. Soja
9 is familiar with this part of the city, and, allegedly, what was used
10 there were the modified bombs.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Soja, can you recognise here the building of the TV station?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you please mark it on this map.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Soja, could you wait a minute. Our usher will
16 help you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Marks]. That is the TV station building.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Is it correct that across the road from this building is the
20 Geodetic Institute?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you please mark it by a smaller circle.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Thank you. Could you please put number 1 next to the TV station
25 building and number 2 next to the land survey building.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Can you now please encircle the big factory Vaso Miskin Crni?
3 A. Yes, I can. I think that this is approximately here [marks].
4 Q. Can you please mark it with number 3?
5 A. Yes. [Marks]
6 Q. Can you show us where Energoinvest was located?
7 A. Well, Vaso Miskin Crni is practically a part of Energoinvest, but
8 there were some other factories that were part of the Energoinvest and
9 they were located approximately here [marks].
10 Q. Thank you. Would you agree that to the west of this was the
11 distribution centre and some other plants of the Energoinvest?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Can you please encircle this section as well?
14 A. Yes, I can. It's roughly around here [marks].
15 Q. Thank you. Would you agree that there are no residential
16 buildings in this area?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember that to the right, that is to say to the east of
19 the TV station building, is Astra and then Uniklima and some other
20 industrial plants?
21 A. I remember that there were some other plants, and a few days ago
22 I could recall, by looking at an appropriate map, that that was how they
23 were called.
24 Q. Thank you. Can you please write the date and sign this map.
25 I now wish to present a photograph of this area so that all the
1 participants could see how this area where two modified bombs landed
2 looked like.
3 A. Do you mean this map, where I already marked the circles?
4 Q. If you could just write the date and your initials, please.
5 A. Can you just remind me? What is today's date?
6 Q. The 30th of September.
7 A. [Marks]
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it admitted, please?
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D674.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I wish to show a photograph of
13 this, and then we could look at section 9 of this very same document.
14 But now can we please see 21214, 65 ter 21214. 65 ter 21214.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: According to the Prosecution note, this is
16 the correct 65 ter number. It's a photo.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, now we can see this photo.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. I will ask you to mark on this photo, first of all, the TV
20 station building.
21 A. Yes. [Marks]. This is the TV station building.
22 Q. Can you please mark it with number 1.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Yes, just like that. Thank you. And can you now please mark the
25 Land Survey Institute.
1 A. The Land Survey Institute [marks].
2 Q. And the police station, close to the Land Survey Institute, can
3 you mark it as well?
4 A. I'm not sure where exactly was the police station, to the right
5 or to the left. To be honest, I don't really remember. Maybe what is at
6 the lower left-hand corner, which I marked -- I think it was part of the
7 trolley bus plant of Astra.
8 Q. Can you now please mark to the right Astra and Igman.
9 A. It's approximately around here [marks].
10 Q. Can you now please mark the Vaso Miskin Crni.
11 A. Here [marks].
12 Q. So number 2 is the Land Survey Institute, number 3 is Uniklima,
13 Astra and Igman, and number 4 is Vaso Miskin Crni, but you didn't include
14 all of it.
15 A. Well, that was it, more or less. There were various factories
16 there. I'm not sure what were all the buildings that belonged to the
17 Vaso Miskin complex.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you now please draw a circle from the left to the
19 right by which you would mark the borders of the entire industrial
21 A. Well, it would be approximately around here [marks].
22 Q. Thank you. There, as we can see, are no residential buildings;
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would you agree that parallel to the upper line there was a
1 former Drinska Street which is now called Safeta Zajke?
2 A. I agree that there's a street there, but I didn't know what it
3 was called nor what it is called now, but I suppose that those names are
5 Q. Thank you. Can you please write the date and your initials on
6 this photo.
7 A. Yes. [Marks]
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Could we now please see section 9 of the previous document.
10 JUDGE KWON: This will be admitted as Exhibit D675.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 From the previous document, just section 9.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Before it appears on the screen, Mr. Soja, we can perhaps go
15 through what we agreed about during the interview, and we did it easily.
16 Is it correct that for a long time, Otes was in the hands of the
17 Muslim Army and that it -- from it, they shot at and attacked the Serbian
18 part of Ilidza?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You also agreed, as somebody who had served the army, that taking
21 control of Otes was motivated by military logic; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. We also agreed that Serbs were in the Energoinvest complex and
24 the Muslims in the cold storage plant complex.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did we also agree -- this is not section 9. Or maybe it is, but
2 we just need one.
3 Did we agree that the cold storage plant was full of troops and
4 that it was used as a firing position and also as a military materiel
6 A. I'm not sure if it was full of troops and if it was used as a
7 military warehouse, but it's certain that fire was opened against Ilidza
8 from it. So certainly there were troops inside occasionally. But
9 whether it was also used as a warehouse or not, I wouldn't know.
10 Q. Thank you. In order to receive a document about that, I will ask
11 you something else first.
12 We can see the separation line here. Can I please ask you to
13 encircle the Energoinvest complex and the cold storage plant complex.
14 A. What is already encircled here -- oops, I'm sorry. [Marks].
15 What is already encircled here is the Energoinvest complex.
16 Q. Can you please mark it with the letter E.
17 A. Yes, I can. [Marks]
18 Q. Can you now please encircle the cold storage plant.
19 A. Yes, I can. [Marks]. This is approximately the cold storage
21 Q. Can you mark it with the letter H for "Hladnjaca"?
22 A. [Marks].
23 Q. Where was the Market Street? Can you mark it, because that's
24 where the separation line was.
25 A. I can. It is marked here already. One can see it. Should I
1 encircle it or should I just indicate where it is?
2 Q. Maybe you can draw a line parallel to that street.
3 A. Well, this was the part of the Market Street, the Pijacna Street
4 in B/C/S, which was parallel to the forward separation line [marks].
5 Q. Can you please mark it with the letters PU or PS to stand for
6 "Pijacna Street"?
7 A. [Marks].
8 Q. Thank you. You -- that is to say, the Army of Republika Srpska
9 launched modified bombs from Energoinvest in the direction of Hladnjaca.
10 Was there any residential building in the space between these two
12 A. It did not shoot them from the location of Energoinvest, but from
13 the place across the street. That was below Kasindolska Street, below
14 the overpass, but it is true that practically there were no residential
15 buildings in the area.
16 Q. Thank you. You have heard of at least one incident of testing
17 the precision of the modified bomb, and the testing took place in Zuca,
18 where there are also no residential buildings but just huge military
19 fortifications, both Muslim and Serbs ones; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You do not exclude the possibility that there were more testings,
22 but there was at least one?
23 A. Yes, I have heard about one such testing.
24 Q. Thank you. You were called to improve the launching and to
25 improve the ignition in order to reinforce the ignition, and that was
1 your duty; correct?
2 A. They called me from the company in which I was under work
3 obligation at the time, and I was told that a launcher should be made in
4 the Ilidza Brigade and that for the launcher we should try to make a
5 modification, or an improvement or something - I don't remember the
6 formulation precisely - of the ignition system.
7 Q. Thank you. The Army of Republika Srpska, nor the OTP, asked you
8 anything about the precision of the system of the rocket motors that
9 existed, but just about igniting and activating these bombs; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And during the interview a few days ago, did we agree that the
12 rocket motors were the regular motors for the Grad rockets, with
13 performances by which you could calculate the trajectory?
14 A. When I was at the only meeting about the system, I was told, as
15 far as I remember, that these were rocket motors which are used for
16 anti-Hale rockets. Whether these were really rocket motors from the
17 anti-Hale rockets or some other type of rocket motors is something that I
18 could not confirm. What I can state as my opinion is certainly that
19 whatever kind of motors was used, it couldn't be improvised. These had
20 to be some of the existing rocket motors which are used for some sort of
22 Q. Thank you. And such motors, as a rule, have specific
23 performances and tables for targeting; correct?
24 A. Well, I suppose they do.
25 Q. In one of the statements, you mentioned that you had heard that
1 one of those modified air bombs had been used against Visoko. Was it
2 used against civilian targets; did you know that or did you not know?
3 A. I did not have any information as to what was targeted. I learnt
4 it only by chance, because the launcher that we worked on had failed
5 during the launching, and while we were trying to remove that, I was told
6 that a bomb had been launched against Visoko, but I didn't know anything
7 about the target.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps had
9 about 60 to -- 40- to 60-kilometre-long front-line in the city and around
10 250 in Central Bosnia?
11 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you about the kilometres, but the fact
12 is that the front-line was, indeed, very long.
13 Q. Thank you. In one of your statements, you stated that you had
14 never heard any of the modified bombs having been used against civilians.
15 A. I didn't know anything about targets. Where I moved about and
16 where I resided is a valley, so it was impossible to see where those
17 bombs and other bombs were falling. You could hear detonations coming
18 from certain directions, but I didn't have any information about possible
20 Q. Thank you. We also mentioned Stupsko Brdo and Stupska Petlja?
21 Who controlled Stupsko Brdo and Stupska Petlja throughout the war?
22 A. Either Muslims or Muslim and Croat forces together. In any case,
23 it wasn't the Army of Republika Srpska.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 I apologise. I have to wait for the transcript. We speak the
1 same language, and our interpreters are experiencing problems with the
2 two of us.
3 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, could you kindly put the date and
4 your signature on this map, and we'll keep it.
5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
6 JUDGE KWON: That will be D676.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. We agreed that due to the sanctions in 1995, when those bombs
9 were modified and sanctions were imposed on Yugoslavia and Serbia
10 entire world, there was a shortage of ammunition and other equipment in
11 the VRS.
12 A. Yes, that's what I heard, and I believe that it was, indeed, the
14 Q. In one of your statements, you were asked about
15 Vlasi [phoen] Vidovic, whom you didn't know, but you were familiar with
16 his nickname, Vaske. So you didn't know him under his name?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you said that it was a very unconventional [as interpreted]
19 unit in Ilijas.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you also said, on cross-examination in the General Milosevic
22 case on 25 April 2007
23 have committed.
24 A. No, I didn't hear of any crimes that he had committed.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript, it says "very
1 unconventional," and I said "one unconventional unit." I just want to
2 make those slight corrections for the transcript.
3 I would like to call up a document, 1D2431.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You will help us with this. This is a document issued by the
6 Muslim 102nd Motorised Brigade. Do you agree that the area around the
7 cold storage plant was under its control?
8 A. I don't know. I don't know the name of the brigade.
9 Q. In any case, the Muslim Army was present there all the time?
10 A. Yes.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2431.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. We will not read all of it; just the parts that have been
14 translated. I'm going to read for you.
15 The Command of the 102nd Motorised Brigade, strictly
16 confidential, 9th of November, 1993:
17 "On the basis of the need, and in an effort to do as good and
18 effective work and safety of persons that are residing in the cold
19 storage plant, the 1st Motorised Battalion, the 2nd Motorised Battalion,
20 Light Artillery Rocket Battalion of the Anti-Aircraft Defence, and in an
21 effort to establish functionality of this facility for carrying out
22 combat actions, I hereby order ..."
23 And there are ten items on the first page and they are all
24 relative to the modification of the cold storage plant so that it could
25 be used in combat.
1 Does this sound convincing? Does this document sound convincing?
2 A. Please allow me to read everything.
3 It does sound convincing.
4 Q. Is there another cold storage plant in the area or is this the
5 only one?
6 A. This is the only one.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Could I tender this document into evidence, please?
9 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification, pending full
10 translation of this document.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D677, Your Honours, MFI.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2391 is the next document I would
13 like to call up.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I would like to draw your attention to the heading, where it says
16 "The Command of the 102nd Motorised Brigade." 800 hours, the 1st of
17 February, 1994, and this is an order for the usage of artillery in
18 defence, the section of the map, and so on and so forth, the general area
19 of Stup.
20 Is Stup the place where both Energoinvest and the cold storage
21 plant were located?
22 A. Yes, approximately, although I would say that the cold storage
23 plant also occupies one part of Azici, although it was always popularly
24 known as the cold storage plant in Stup. And Energoinvest was also known
25 as a facility in Stup.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 I have to be mindful of the interpreters.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Under item 1, it says:
5 "The enemy --" which means the Serbs in this case; right?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. "In previous combat actions, the enemy has gained control over
8 the wider area of Doglodi village, Otes, Kasindolska Street, Nedzarici
9 village, and they have reached the following line: The Miljacka River by
10 the Spajic farm, the Elektro-shop, the Vidic house, the Market Street
11 the Dobrinja River
12 house, the Nedzarici Elementary school, and they have organised their
13 defence with an intention to continue combat activities."
14 Under 2, it says:
15 "The 102nd Motorised Brigade is organising decisive defence in
16 the area of Sentrotrans, including the old pensioners' home, the Zora
17 factory and Sipad ..."
18 And so on and so forth. Further down, it says:
19 "Observation point 01 at the cold storage plant and
20 observation point 2 is taken by the Mixed Artillery Battalion. The
21 command post in the Halilovic sector, the Magros facility."
22 Can we please move on to the following page in the Serbian
24 Under 5, let's not read everything, but it says:
25 "The anti-armour fight focused on the axis: Azici-Stup, Pijacna
1 Street, the cold storage plant, Kasindolska Street --"
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, can we also have the -- yes.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you can read them later on. Just put
4 your question, Mr. Karadzic.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. This deployment of forces, is that what you were familiar with,
7 and does this speak about continuous urban fighting in this part of
8 Ilidza, Mr. Soja?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you agree that on the Muslim side, there was artillery, there
11 were anti-armour tools, and that the cold storage plant is in the center
12 of all those combat activities?
13 A. Yes.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's not go on reading. Everybody
15 can read for themselves.
16 Can this document be admitted?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: As with the previous document, the accused
19 just uses the term "the storage plant," that's mentioned in here,
20 although -- and it has nothing to do with the evidence of the witness.
21 This first -- this last document that was marked for identification is
22 from 1993. It is a document from the Muslim forces. And here in this
23 here is again a document from the Muslim forces from 1994 that has
24 nothing to do with the evidence of the witness. I don't -- I object to
25 that to be admitted just on the fact that the witness is familiar, in
1 general terms, with the region.
2 JUDGE KWON: Is the accused not entitled to put questions about
3 his case to the witness, who is familiar with the case?
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, of course, Your Honour, but I just
5 object against admitting of the document. That was my observation.
6 There is no foundation for admitting this document.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond, Your Honours?
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness testifies about the
10 attempts of destruction of the cold storage plant in 1995. However, the
11 pretext or the cause for that action was permanent fighting from the very
12 outset of the war. During all this time, the cold storage plant was in
13 the center of all the events. And the witness knows very well the line
14 never moved in that area, that the Muslims were in the cold storage plant
15 all the time, and there was shooting coming from the cold storage plant
16 all the time. And this document shows what the witness knows already;
17 that the fire coming from the cold storage plant came from the
18 anti-armour pieces, from infantry weapons, and that it was a focal point
19 of combat throughout the war.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: There is no doubt that the cold storage
23 plant was used for military purposes. But this document is actually
24 about fighting in other areas as well, and the witness has not provided
25 any knowledge of fighting in certain areas that are mentioned here. He's
1 concerned with the cold storage plant and not all these other areas.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond again?
3 One witness was here and said that Stup was controlled by the
4 Serbs, and this witness knows that the situation was just the contrary,
5 it was under the Muslim control, and Stupsko Brdo and Stupska Petlja were
6 always under the Muslim control.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE KWON: We do not think the Prosecution is challenging the
9 authenticity of this document, and the witness was able to confirm the
10 part of this document, which is of only three pages. We don't think
11 there's any problem in admitting this.
12 This will be admitted.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D678, Your Honours.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 1D2340 [as interpreted] is the next document I would like to call
17 JUDGE KWON: Is it not 243 --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 2430. That's not the document.
19 1D2430, another document issued by the 102nd Muslim Brigade.
20 Yes, that's the document. We're not going to read all of it.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I would like to show you, Mr. Soja, and you can very well see it
23 next to the number 30/2, the enemy is grouped in Doglodi, Kasindolska,
24 Nedzarici, and the enemy has engaged troops to hold the lines. Do you
25 agree with their estimate, that the Serbs had to engage senior troops to
1 man the line?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was it due to the fact that the Muslim side over-powered the
4 Serbs, in terms of the number of soldiers?
5 A. Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we move on to the following
7 page, item 3. I believe that we can stay on the same page in English.
8 Or, rather, we need item 4, I decided. Can we move on to the following
9 page in English as well, the part that begins: "I decided ..." I don't
10 know if there's a translation in English. It says: "I decided ..."
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can you follow, sir:
13 "I decided to organise a decisive defence in the area of
14 responsibility at the present positions with the focus being on the axis:
15 Ilidza, Kasindolska Street, Nedzarici, [indiscernible], the cold storage
16 plant, the Stupska Petlja ..."
17 And so on and so forth.
18 Is it true that the lines were very close to each other
19 throughout the war in that area?
20 A. Yes.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We do not have the English
22 translation of all the items. We just have some of them translated.
23 Could we please see, after this, two pages on, the fourth page of
24 the document.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. And here, on top of the page, it says:
2 "Stup-Energoinvest, Stup-Otes, Stup-Doglodi, Azici, attack the
3 enemy personnel, combat equipment and facilities."
4 So they are ordering here that fire should be opened on the
5 Serbian side, the troops, the combat equipment and facilities. Then they
6 have artillery brigade observation post MPOAD [phoen], and they will
7 place one on the cold storage plant, another one on the Brijesko Brdo,
8 and so on.
9 It's a document very similar to the previous one, and would you
10 agree that, so to speak, there was not a single day in the area without
11 any exchange of fire, and there were frequent actions and fighting which
12 follow from such an order as this one?
13 A. There were very frequent exchanges of fire and combat of lower
14 and higher intensity. It's difficult to say whether it was every day,
15 but one can certainly say that the line was never quiet.
16 Q. In a word, in your mind and the mind of all people living there,
17 the cold storage plant was hardly an economic facility, but it was rather
18 a military facility; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this admitted,
21 or, rather, marked for identification, because the entire document has
22 not been translated.
23 JUDGE KWON: The Prosecution has already agreed to the fact that
24 the cold plant was a military facility. Then there's no point of further
25 examination on that point.
1 We'll mark this for identification, pending full translation.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 I think that I may as well conclude my cross-examination, and I
5 thank Mr. Soja for meeting the Defence and for coming here to testify.
6 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, do you have any re-exam?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. Just one additional
8 question just to clarify.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. After the cold storage plant was unsuccessfully targeted, the
11 system on which you worked in connection with the cold storage plant was
12 abandoned because there was no success with targeting the cold storage
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And the last question: You said in some statements that the AID
16 didn't treat you quite decently; that they did not beat you, but that you
17 were afraid, and eventually they brought you in contact with the OTP?
18 A. They conducted themselves rather professionally, but they did
19 threaten me.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 I have concluded my cross-examination.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I have just a few minutes of
24 redirect, addressing two points that Dr. Karadzic spoke about with the
1 Re-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
2 Q. The first point is the Muslims living in your settlement in
4 threatened, or why did they leave?
5 A. In the place where I resided at the very beginning of the war,
6 there were not many Muslim-populated houses, not many Muslim residents
7 who resided there permanently. Some of them spent the entire war in
9 houses with somebody else. They moved closer to Sarajevo, and they
10 swapped houses with some Serbs who had come from Sarajevo. In one of
11 these cases, I know that there were some tensions, that I suppose their
12 neighbours placed some hate phone calls. That was at the very outbreak
13 of the war. And I was a member of the - let me call it - delegation of
14 people who went to talk to them, and our joint conclusion was that this
15 could be a solution, to swap houses temporarily, and that that would be
16 the best solution possibly, because one could already see that this would
17 turn into a serious conflict, that there would certainly be victims, and
18 that later on it would be very difficult to guarantee safety to anyone.
19 Q. And the other question I have relates to your own whereabouts
20 during the conflict.
21 Did you participate in fighting in Otes or other places that
22 Dr. Karadzic put to you and that were addressed in the documents?
23 A. Well, I practically did not directly participate in any of the
24 fighting. It was just incidentally, and on the first day of the fighting
25 around Otes I was re-deployed to the barracks in the rear, in Butile, and
1 later on I was in Doglodi, but I turned up there after the main combat
2 had already been concluded. There were sporadic exchanges of fire and
3 shoot-outs, but I wouldn't really call it actual fighting, because I
4 never saw a single soldier of the opposing side.
5 Q. Would you know about the planning of attacks or counter-attacks?
6 A. I didn't know anything about military matters. But, of course,
7 as all people from my area who were members of my unit took part in the
8 fighting, they knew that something would be going on in the area, so I
9 had some, let me call it, unofficial information which I learned from my
10 neighbours and colleagues and friends that something would be taking
11 place there.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this concludes my redirect.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Mr. Soja, that concludes your evidence. On behalf of the
15 Tribunal and the Bench, I would like to thank you for your coming all the
16 way from your place to give it. Now you are free to go.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE KWON: We'll go into private session briefly.
19 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE KWON: So the hearing is now adjourned until Tuesday, when
13 we will have a hearing in the afternoon at 2.15.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.20 a.m.
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of
16 October, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.