1 Monday, 11 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everybody.
7 Good morning, Mr. Gicevic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
9 JUDGE KWON: Would you take the solemn declaration, please.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: ALEN GICEVIC
13 [The witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE KWON: Please be seated.
15 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Good morning, Your Honours.
17 Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Gicevic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Would you please state your full name.
21 A. Alen Gicevic.
22 Q. Did you testify before the Tribunal in the trials of
23 Dragomir Milosevic and Momcilo Perisic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did you give written statements to the Office of the
1 Prosecutor in November 1995 and April 2006?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. On the 16th of February, 2010, did you provide an amalgamated
4 statement which contains relevant parts from your prior testimony and
5 your statements?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would ask that Exhibit 65 ter 22094 be
8 brought up onto the screen, and in particular the first and the tenth
9 page. Actually, that's enough.
10 Q. Is that your amalgamated statement?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review that amalgamated statement
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Mr. Gicevic, can you confirm that your amalgamated statement
16 accurately reflects your evidence in the past?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would you provide that same evidence to the Court if questioned
19 on the same matters here today?
20 A. Yes, the answers would be the same.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the following two corrections
22 need to be made to the statement. It's just corrections of references.
23 On page 3, from line [sic] onwards, the photo 65 ter 10191 is
24 referred to, and that's not indicated in any footnote. And in footnote
25 20, at page 6, the reference should read "65 ter 13143," because the
1 witness was marking the same photo as in footnote 19. And these
2 corrections replace the corrigenda on the final page of the amalgamated
4 Your Honour, I would like to tender this testimony, 65 ter 22094,
5 for admission under Rule 92 ter.
6 JUDGE KWON: That is admitted.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1690, Your Honours.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the Court's permission, I would now
10 read a brief summary of the witness's evidence as admitted.
11 During the years 1992 to 1995, Mr. Gicevic was a resident of
13 On the 22nd of April, 1992, he was wounded by a shell near his
14 house in the center of Sarajevo
15 his stomach as a result.
16 The apartment in which Mr. Gicevic lived with his parents was
17 damaged twice due to shelling. In addition, the apartment was repeatedly
18 struck by gun-fire.
19 On 3rd March 1995
20 cease-fire, Mr. Gicevic was a passenger in a crowded tram heading towards
21 the center of Sarajevo
22 witness was shot in the leg and hospitalised as a result of his injury.
23 Another passenger was also struck by a bullet. The area where the tram
24 was shot at was known for sniper fire from Bosnian Serb positions so that
25 anti-sniper barriers had been set up to protect the civilian population.
1 There were no military installations in the immediate area where the tram
2 was hit, nor was there any military activity there that day. The witness
3 concluded that the shots were fired from an area held by Bosnian Serb
5 During the summer of 1995, Mr. Gicevic on several occasions
6 observed unarmed civilians coming under fire on Marsala Tita Street. The
7 firing appeared to come from a white high-rise building situated in
8 Serb-held Grbavica.
9 Your Honours, this concludes the summary.
10 I have just a very few questions to clarify some locations that
11 the witness addressed in his amalgamated statement.
12 Q. Mr. Gicevic, during your previous testimonies, you were asked to
13 mark quite a number of maps and photos. Do you recall that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would ask that Exhibit 65 ter 10189 be
16 brought up onto the screen, please.
17 Q. And as it is coming up: It is a photo with some markings in red
18 on it. Mr. Gicevic, did you make these markings?
19 A. Yes. The last times when I gave evidence, I made these markings.
20 Q. Can you tell us what the red markings indicate, starting with
21 this little arrow in the middle of this photo?
22 A. The little arrow marks the place where the tram was hit during
23 this incident.
24 Q. And the direction of the tram, was it going to the left or the
1 A. On this photograph, it was on the right. The tram was moving
2 from the left to the right.
3 Q. And you also mentioned the front-line in your amalgamated
4 statement. Where would that be?
5 A. It was in the valley of the Miljacka River
6 dotted line that goes from left to right.
7 Q. And the number 2 -- the circle with the number 2, what is this?
8 A. I can barely see it here, I mean the numbers. Number 2, as far
9 as I can see, is this tall white building, the skyscraper. Yes, that's
10 it, that's number 2, and I assume that it's the shot that hit the tram --
11 or, rather, the shots that hit the tram could have come from that
12 skyscraper. And that was a well-known sniper nest.
13 Q. And the circle -- the circle with the number 3, what does this
14 circle indicate?
15 A. The circle with the number 3 denotes the Metalka building,
16 another building that was well known as being one from which snipers
18 Q. In your written evidence - and it's at page 7 [Realtime
19 transcript read in error "5"], Your Honour - you describe that just past
20 the place of the incident where the tram was hit, the tram tracks turn to
21 the right side of the street. Do you know since when this curve or bend
23 A. Well, that curve has been there since the last reconstruction,
24 and that was a few years before the Olympic Games that were held in 1984.
25 Since then, there have been no reconstructions of this tram track.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I request the admission of
2 this exhibit, 65 ter --
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1691.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would ask that now Exhibit 65 ter 10191 be
6 brought up onto the screen, please, and it is another photo with some
7 markings in blue.
8 Q. Did you make these markings in the previous testimony?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What does this blue -- long blue line that you marked with
11 number 6, what does it indicate?
12 A. It was the road that people took from one side of the city to the
13 other. It was called the Salvation Road, the Salvation Route, the Route
14 of Hope, whatever people called it. And from the Jewish cemetery in
15 Grbavica and the territory on the other side of the Miljacka River
16 was held by the Bosnian Serbs, it was exposed to sniper fire.
17 Q. And this dotted line on the right side with number 7 on it, if it
18 is number 7 - I think it's 7 - what is this?
19 A. It may denote the row of containers that protected people from
20 fire. Also, it can be the place where the tram stopped. That would be
22 Q. And you have marked here several circles, circles with "10,"
23 "11," and "12." What would that be?
24 A. Those were well-known crossroads where civilians were being fired
25 at many times.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I request the admission of this
2 exhibit as well.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1692, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if you could be kind enough to
6 show me the portion where the witness refers to the curve in his
7 statement. You said, In page 5.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Let me just see. No, page 7. Then I had
9 misspoken. It's on page 7, where he describes the -- where he describes
10 the place where the incident occurred and that there was a track -- where
11 he describes where the track was running. It's at line 15 to 18, where
12 he describes the tracks running from the left side to the right side of
13 the street.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Page 7 on the hard copy?
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, page 7. I misspoke.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
18 Q. Mr. Gicevic, were you living in Sarajevo throughout the war?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You described the living conditions in Sarajevo during the period
21 from summer 1992 to the end of 1995 as difficult.
22 Your Honour, that's on page 2.
23 Can you explain what you mean by "difficult"?
24 A. Well, I mean in every sense of the word. It was a struggle for
25 bare survival. There was a shortage of food, of electricity. Then when
1 there's no electricity, there's no water either. There were shells,
2 there was sniper fire, gun-fire. Therefore, many glass panes had been
3 broken, and during the winter it was very hard to heat apartments. And
4 above all, there was this uncertainty related to bare survival. There
5 were sudden shellings, gun-fire. It was a struggle for bare survival
6 over three years.
7 Q. And you described your physical injuries you sustained during the
8 events in your written evidence, and we do not need to repeat that.
9 Your experience during the years 1992 to 1995, did it also have
10 any psychological effect on you during the events and perhaps even
12 A. There are physical and psychological effects. I am struggling
13 somehow with the psychological effects and the physical ones also.
14 Q. And what do you mean by "psychological effects"?
15 A. Well, psychologically, if there are 1.000 days of such
16 uncertainty, any normal person would have to be affected. We are trying
17 to find ways of forgetting all of that, but as a physician from Sarajevo
18 said once, the brain may have forgotten, but the body still recalls.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this concludes the
21 I would now request the three remaining associated exhibits
22 referred to in the amalgamated statement be admitted. It would be 10188,
23 10439 and 13143.
24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
25 With respect to 10439, which is a police report of 24 pages, I
1 note that the witness did say that he reviewed it, and this is on page 9
2 in his statement, and he -- the facts set out in the file agree with his
3 recollection of the incident. But I don't think it's a good practice to
4 admit an entire police report through a person who's not a police
5 officer, because it contains many things besides his own statement -
6 conclusions, forensic examination - and I don't think it's proper --
7 I think it deprives us of confrontation rights to admit a police report
8 through a witness who simply says it agrees with his recollection of the
9 incident. So we would be objecting, although we note that the police
10 officers involved will be coming to testify, and perhaps it could more
11 properly be admitted when they testify.
12 Thank you.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
15 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I have only added this document here because
17 it is mentioned in the amalgamated statement, and it was actually
18 discussed extensively with this witness in the earlier testimony. But as
19 the police officer is, indeed, coming as the next witness, I would not
20 insist on this.
21 JUDGE KWON: Well, that being the case, then we'll -- can I take
22 it that you are withdrawing that exhibit in relation to this witness?
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Then there being no objection, those two
25 exhibits will be admitted. Shall we give them the number?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter 10188 will be
2 Exhibit P1693, and 65 ter 13143 will be Exhibit P1694.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. That's it.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.
7 Good morning to all.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Gicevic.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. I'd like to ask you to tell us what kind of education you've had.
13 A. I have a university degree in Economics.
14 Q. Before that?
15 A. Before that, I completed the high school called Druga Gimnazija
16 in Sarajevo
17 Q. And in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you worked as a nurse,
18 right, a medical technician, as we say?
19 A. I worked as an ambulance driver and, when necessary, as medical
20 staff as well. That was my VS in the JNA, because I did my military
21 service in Mostar, and that's where I was an ambulance driver as well.
22 Q. Thank you. Since we are speaking the same language, could I ask
23 you to pause between question and answer so it would be possible for the
24 interpreters to interpret what we are saying.
25 In the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you were, between August 1992
1 to July 1994; is that right?
2 A. From April 1992.
3 Q. It says here "from August," so that's wrong. All right. So from
4 April 1992 until July 1994. In which unit?
5 A. First, I was in the Territorial Defence, and after that I was in
6 the Command of the Medical Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina
7 from August 1992, in the 101st Brigade.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 07078 [as interpreted].
9 Could we have page 1 of that document, please. 07048.
10 THE REGISTRAR: This has been admitted as Exhibit P1058.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Where was your brigade deployed?
13 A. From August 1992, it was on Hrasno Brdo.
14 Q. So you were the driver for that brigade?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now zoom in on this map,
17 where it says the "101st Brigade." A bit more. A bit more, please.
18 Thank you.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Could you please mark, with that pen, the area of responsibility
21 of the 101st Brigade, and the lines that it covers, and where you did
22 your driving.
23 A. Well, let me tell you, it is very hard to see anything on this
24 map. I can hardly mark anything. I can just describe the line of
25 separation for you, the one that was covered by the brigade. It's very
1 hard for me to see anything here. I wonder who could conceivably see
2 anything on this map.
3 Q. Can you discern the airport, Dobrinja, Alipasino Polje, Grbavica,
4 Hrasno Brdo, when you see these markings for different staffs?
5 A. I'm saying, once again, I'm very familiar with maps, but I cannot
6 see anything here, Alipasino, nothing, not with this kind of zoom-in.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we zoom out, then, so it's
8 easier for Mr. Gicevic to read this map.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Gicevic, do you see here where it says the "101st Brigade"?
11 Can you discern "Hrasno Brdo," "Grbavica," et cetera?
12 A. I see where it says the "101st Brigade," but the rest is very
14 Q. Do you see these little flags where the staffs are marked of the
15 battalions and companies of the 101st Brigade? Is that Hrasno Brdo?
16 A. I am telling you that I cannot say whether it's Hrasno Brdo or
17 not. I assume it is, as long as that is there.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the
19 paper part of this map that might help him mark it.
20 JUDGE KWON: I wonder, in the meantime, if Mr. Reid could find a
21 map of better quality than this one.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If necessary, we even have a
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not about magnifying-glasses,
25 it's about the clearness of this map. I don't see who could find his way
1 on this map. You can just read the names of brigades here, nothing else.
2 But I'll try to answer your question.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Could you please try to use a blue marker, for instance, to mark
5 the area of responsibility of your brigade? And that is the area where
6 you drove that ambulance; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: Can he be given blue.
9 THE WITNESS: [Marks]. But I'm telling you again that I'm doing
10 this more by intuition rather than relying on the markings on this map.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can you see the city of Sarajevo
13 know it very well, and we know all the settlements that constitute the
14 city, and do you see the separation line between the HQs of the 101st
15 Brigade and the respective battalions and companies? Can you please --
16 you have drawn the front-line going through Mojmilo. Can you indicate,
17 where does it link up with the 115th?
18 A. Somewhere in the area of the Grbavica Stadium.
19 Q. And which was the neighbouring unit on the right flank?
20 A. That was the Dobrinja Brigade until they merged sometime in 1993.
21 Q. Can you then mark, in depth, the area of responsibility of 101st
22 Brigade? You can see these flags going all the way to Dobrinjska Street
23 A. I really don't see how you can see the Dobrinjska Street here.
24 All I can see here is the city and the separation line, and I really
25 congratulate you on being able to find the streets here.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, as much as you can, sir.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think why do we not use a different map.
4 The witness obviously cannot precisely do what Mr. Karadzic asked him to
5 do. I mean, we have always used so far this map [indicates], and I don't
6 know whether this is an option. I don't know whether this is -- what is
7 supposed to be shown on there.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that we can do that, but
9 this map shows very dense distribution of HQs of the 101st Brigade in the
10 area of Hrasno Brdo all the way to Grbavica.
11 JUDGE KWON: This map has been already admitted, and we can
12 rely -- you can rely on this map later on, so why don't we use another
13 map which the witness can easily recognise, having heard from him that --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it necessary for him to make any
15 markings on this map?
16 JUDGE KWON: He says he's not able to mark anything on this map.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Can we please then use the map that has been kindly offered by
19 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that's 65 ter 09390C.
21 JUDGE KWON: And what page?
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, it's actually the whole map at the
23 moment. I'm not sure which page.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
1 bit unclear. Sheet 10 or 14.
3 the Dobrinja Brigade was.
4 No, this is not 10. This is 8. We need 10.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Gicevic, is it now easier for you to mark the area of
7 responsibility of the forward and -- of the area of responsibility of the
8 101st Brigade?
9 A. Please give me time to find my bearings. It is much easier now.
10 Well, there is a separation line here [indicates], more or less.
11 Do I need to mark it on this map?
12 Q. Yes, we can see the separation line, but can you please mark the
13 linking point with the 115th, and what was the in-depth area of
14 responsibility of the 101st?
15 A. I don't know you can ask me to make such markings. I'm not a
16 military expert.
17 Q. But you worked as a driver.
18 A. Yes, I drove from the annex to the hospital. I didn't do my
19 driving along the whole line.
20 Q. Was Alipasino Polje within the area of responsibility of the
21 101st Brigade, the Alipasino Polje neighbourhood?
22 A. That is an urban city zone. I don't know how it can be within
23 the responsibility of 101st Brigade's. In other words, troops were
24 deployed along the lines. They were not in the town, unless they went
25 back into town.
1 Q. Are you trying to say that the area of responsibility is only
2 marked by a line, that there is no in-depth to it?
3 A. I told you I am no military expert. The area of responsibility
4 was above the stadium, all the way to Dobrinja.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this map on the
6 ELMO. That's 1D255.
7 [In English] May I ask you to enlarge this portion, this portion,
8 this portion.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Do you understand, Mr. Gicevic, now what I'm referring to? You
11 see the front end and you see the area of responsibility. Did you do
12 your driving along this area marked by these hooks?
13 A. I already told you I drove from Vrbovska Street to the barracks
14 and then to the State and City Hospital
15 the line. I only went in-depth to the barracks and from the barracks to
16 the hospitals.
17 Q. That was only one route?
18 A. Yes, of course. Every battalion and every company had their own
19 medical team, and they didn't overlap in their responsibilities. That is
20 what happens in every army.
21 Q. Are you trying to tell me that you were not at the level of the
22 brigade, but rather at the level of company?
23 A. I was at the level of the brigade. But whenever necessary, I
24 went to the battalion HQ on Vrbovska Street.
25 Q. Can you show Vrbovska Street on the ELMO, where the HQ of the
1 battalion was?
2 A. Well, I don't know exactly. It runs parallel with Zagorska
3 Street. It's about 200 metres below the line of separation. But just
4 give me a moment to find my bearings. Nevertheless, I think it is
5 impossible to do that.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, having heard the answer from the
7 witness, I would advise you to move on to another topic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE KWON: He has come to testify about the F-16 incidents and
10 other shelling incidents.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. But I am interested, Mr. Gicevic, how come that you were wounded
13 on Nemanjina Street while you were walking, and then through the zone of
14 the 101st and 115th Brigades you managed to get through unscathed?
15 A. I don't know -- you're really insulting my dignity and the
16 evidence that I gave you. I don't know what you expect me to answer to
18 Q. Please do not feel insulted. That's the last thing on my mind.
19 Do you believe that the fact that you drove the ambulance kept you safe
20 from being injured for two years during the war, without happening to
21 you -- anything happening to you whatsoever, but then as a pedestrian you
22 were wounded on Nemanjina Street?
23 A. I think that you would be happy if I had been wounded five times
24 as a civilian and two times as a soldier.
25 Q. Mr. Gicevic, I just wanted to say that you were safe in the
1 ambulance which you drove within the war zone for two years.
2 A. I don't know how it occurred to you at all that I was safe in an
3 ambulance. How can anyone be safe in an ambulance?
4 Q. Was your ambulance ever hit? Were you wounded in your vehicle?
5 A. No, I wasn't, luckily.
6 Q. You say "luckily," but I am saying that this was a decision by
7 the Serbian Army not to shoot at ambulances, and I don't know --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between
9 questions and answers, and slow down. Thank you.
10 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, Mr. Gicevic. Because both of you are
11 overlapping in questions and answers while they were interpreted,
12 interpreters couldn't follow your answers. If you could repeat your last
13 answer, Mr. Gicevic.
14 THE WITNESS: In spite of all the misfortune, I was lucky not to
15 be hit in the ambulance. However, others were not as lucky as I was. A
16 large number of ambulances and people who worked in the Medical Corps,
17 such as doctors and technicians, lost their lives. And you know very
18 well that there were quite a few of such incidents.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Gicevic, there is not such an incident in any of the counts
21 in my indictment. Let's move on.
22 You said that you knew - that's in line 19 - that hundreds of
23 people were wounded or killed by shelling and sniping. Which kind of
24 massive incidents are you aware of taking place in Sarajevo?
25 A. I know the incident of the queue for bread. I know that when
1 children gathered in a playground, happy that they can play some
2 football, I know that people were waiting in queues for water, people
3 were killed and injured at junctions, and that proves why about 10.000
4 people were killed about three -- during the period of three years.
5 Q. Mr. Gicevic, please do not feel that I am trying to attack you.
6 We are just trying to clarify your statement so that we do not have
7 general assertions.
8 Which specific incident are you aware of, as you said on page 2,
9 line 19?
10 A. Let me just mention a few of them. The bread queue on the
11 Vase Miskin Street, the two shelling incidents at Markale, the incident
12 that happened near to the brewery in the old town, where people waiting
13 for water were hit, the incident when children and their teacher, Fatima
14 Bunic, were killed on the school playground, where seven or nine or
15 eleven children were killed while playing football during the calm
16 period. So this is a whole mass of people.
17 Q. Well, I am interested in what you say, this mass and huge number
18 of cases. Do they really exist or is that just a figure of speech of
20 A. From the Vrbanja Bridge
21 know exactly how many such cases happened at the intersections. Maybe
22 not as many people were killed. And there was an incident in
23 Alipasino Polje, and I know that you are aware of these incidents.
24 JUDGE KWON: Now you may ask.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. On page 2, line 25 of your statement, you say that all the
2 intersections along the main street in Sarajevo were notoriously known as
3 sniping targets. These intersections were in Novo Sarajevo, Centar, and
4 Stari Grad municipalities. Can you name these intersections that you
5 would qualify as Sniper Alley? But please be precise in doing so, where
6 exactly these sniping incidents took place.
7 A. Of course, I can do that. The intersection under the
8 Hrasno Brdo, Cengic Vila. Then the next one is close to the power
9 electricity company. Then the Pofalici intersection. Then the
10 intersection between the National Museum
11 the one between the Faculty of Philosophy and the National Museum
12 the one between the Executive Council and Philosophy Faculty. Then on
13 the old and new Skenderija Bridge
14 Skenderi [as interpreted] Mosque. And in all other minor intersections
15 close to the separation line.
16 Q. Now this has prompted me to ask you to mark on the map who was
17 killed on the Skenderija Most Bridge
18 A. Are you really expecting me that I have a book from which I can
19 read you the names of the casualties? I, myself, witnessed the shootings
20 taking place at these locations, and don't force me to doubt my own
22 Q. Well, I have to do that anyway, Ms. Gicevic. Can you tell us
23 which locations were targeted in Stari Grad by snipers?
24 A. I didn't move around Stari Grad as much as that. All I am
25 telling you is what I know.
1 Q. Do you remember that your memory was somewhat better than it is
3 A. I don't know what you are alluding to.
4 Q. Generally speaking, did you have a better memory in recollecting
5 these events than you do now?
6 A. Well, probably.
7 Q. Thank you. Are you trying to say that you are talking about the
8 incidents that you eye-witnessed?
9 A. I wasn't present during the incidents. I did see some of them,
10 but the majority of them I didn't see, myself. I don't know how you
11 expect me to do that.
12 Q. In lines 17 and 18, you say that you were present, and then you
13 go on to say that wherever you were in-situ, you see many incidents. Can
14 you tell us specifically which sniper incidents you witnessed?
15 A. Of course I can. I was working in the building across
16 Alipasina Mosque, and there was a container that was protecting
17 Alipasina Street from south, from the direction of the Jewish cemetery.
18 However, in 1995, when I was working there, I noticed that vehicles came
19 under fire from the white high-rise building in Grbavica. I even
20 witnessed an incident when UNPROFOR troops turned their transporter and
21 their guns towards Grbavica. So all in all, there were quite a few
22 incidents of that nature.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now have P9169
24 [as interpreted] that has been admitted into evidence earlier.
25 JUDGE KWON: I think you have that number wrong.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: P9161.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. 1691?
3 THE ACCUSED: ... 91, recently admitted.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Gicevic, can you see the Unis building, Unioninvest, that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you mark it with a blue marker?
9 So what would be the next number now?
10 JUDGE KWON: Could you wait a minute.
11 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go back to the east a bit.
14 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Under whose control was the Unis building, Mr. Gicevic?
17 A. The Vrbanja Bridge
18 controlled that building, as far as I know.
19 Q. Thank you. Could you look a bit towards the west. Do you see
20 two red buildings? First, you see a red facade, and behind it, another
21 red building to the west of number 5.
22 A. You mean on the right, down here [indicates]?
23 Q. To the left from the number 5, horizontally.
24 A. There are many buildings with red roofs.
25 Q. Red facade.
1 A. Red facade. To tell you the truth, I cannot see. I just see
2 Metalka. That's red.
3 Q. Behind Metalka, do you see a red facade to one side?
4 [In English] May I ask you to show to Mr. Gicevic another photo
5 on the same bench, but just to help him orient.
6 [Interpretation] Do you see those two red buildings? You can see
7 them less in this photograph, but on the other one, you can see them
9 A. I see one red building.
10 Q. And behind it, there's another one.
11 A. I really cannot see another red building.
12 Q. Can you put a circle around the one that you do see.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Yes. The one in front of it is also red, so could you please
15 place number 6 there.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Who controlled that building, Mr. Gicevic?
18 A. As far as I know, you did.
19 Q. Thank you. Can you now mark the Executive Council building?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Please do.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. The Assembly building?
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. The building of the Faculty of Philosophy?
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. The museum building? The entire complex.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. That's right. Who controlled those buildings, Mr. Gicevic?
5 A. These buildings, 7, 8, 9 and 10, were under the control of the
6 Army of BH.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, in your early statement from 1995, you said that
8 the tram had been hit as soon as you passed by the Assembly building.
9 Can you now mark that particular spot where the tram had been hit, as you
10 had stated then. Could you mark it with a little asterisk.
11 A. I don't understand what it is that I'm supposed to mark.
12 Q. According to your first statement, where was the tram hit?
13 A. Before the Assembly, that's what I stated.
14 Q. Can you please put the date there?
15 JUDGE KWON: Do you like to ask the witness to mark further on
16 this map?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted the witness to mark on
18 this photograph the spot where the tram had been hit, according to his
19 first statement.
20 THE WITNESS: According to my first statement, the tram was hit
21 before the Assembly, and I can mark it for you now. [Marks]. I marked
22 it with a little cross.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not what your first
24 statement says.
25 Can this be admitted, once the date is put on this document?
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gicevic, can you kindly put the date of today -
2 which is the 11th of October, 2010 - and your signature.
3 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That will do.
5 In the future, if you're going to mark -- you're going to put the
6 date, put it in the right bottom so that we can see easily.
7 We can -- yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm just wondering about one thing.
9 The accused put to the witness that in the previous statement he
10 would have said something different, but he didn't really put this
11 statement to the witness so that he can check, and he didn't really give
12 the line or an indication where it is, but I think that would have been
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will follow this
15 well-intentioned suggestion.
16 Can this be admitted?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D725, Your Honours.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Gicevic, now I would like to remind you -- actually, can we
21 call up 65 ter 22089. I believe that it exists in both versions. 22089,
22 that's the 65 ter number.
23 This is your statement dated the 15th of November, 1995
24 A. Yes.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 2.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. In the third paragraph, it says:
3 "The tram passed the building of the Executive Council and was
4 arriving at the level of an anti-sniping barricade formed by two rows of
6 Is that what you stated?
7 A. Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have D725.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. The tram was moving from Cengic Vila towards Bascarsija; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. From the west to the east; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In accordance with this statement of yours, that namely the tram
15 passed the Executive Council building and was getting close to -- can you
16 mark now where that anti-sniper barricade was? You said a few moments
17 ago that it was at Marin Dvor; right?
18 JUDGE KWON: Wait. Can you change the colour into black.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The anti-sniper barricades were
20 from the corner at Marsal Tito Barracks all the way up to the old tobacco
21 factory, so it wasn't one particular spot. The entire tram stop had been
22 covered with anti-sniper barricades.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Can you mark the tram stop at Marin Dvor, towards Bascarsija?
25 A. Yes, at Marin Dvor [marks].
1 Q. Can you mark it with number 11, please.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Now, you say in this statement that before the tram was hit, the
4 tram had passed the Executive Council building and that it was hit then;
6 A. That's not what I said. I just said that it stopped at the tram
7 stop at Marin Dvor. And of course it has to pass by the
8 Executive Council building. It cannot get off the tram tracks, can it?
9 Q. What is written here is different, but let us move on. Let us
10 see what is written here.
11 Can you mark the spot where the tram stopped, to the best of your
12 belief, after it had been hit?
13 A. That is what I marked with the number 11; that is to say, behind
14 the old tobacco factory, at the stop there.
15 Q. Thank you. You said that if we look at the direction in which
16 the tram was moving, you were facing Vraca and the Jewish cemetery, and
17 you could see that from where you were standing.
18 A. I was standing on the right-hand side, and I could see the south.
19 Q. It says here:
20 "I was standing on the left-hand side and was facing Vraca and
21 the Jewish cemetery."
22 A. I was standing on the right.
23 Q. How tall are you, Mr. Gicevic?
24 A. 173.
25 Q. How high are the windows on the tram?
1 A. I don't know. First of all, you consider me to be a military
2 expert, and now what? I don't know, two, two and a half metres,
3 whatever. You are really putting some very illogical questions.
4 Q. If you're standing there, you can only see the road, asphalt,
5 when you're standing on the tram. If you were sitting on the tram, then
6 that would have been plausible, but you were standing there with your
7 height of 173 centimetres, and you say that you could see Vraca and the
8 Jewish cemetery?
9 A. To put it mildly, you are saying something that has nothing to do
10 with reality. What kind of a tram would that be that wouldn't have any
11 kind of view even when you're standing? That's the way it is in
13 Q. Do you still stand by that? As you were standing on the right by
14 the wall, you could see the Jewish cemetery and Grbavica?
15 A. With 100 per cent certainty.
16 Q. Thank you. From where could have that bullet come; from the
17 Jewish cemetery?
18 A. You keep saying "Jewish cemetery." When I say "Grbavica,"
19 "Jewish cemetery," I meant the general direction. I don't mean a
20 particular grave in the Jewish cemetery. I was talking about the general
21 direction. I'm really not that familiar with the Jewish cemetery.
22 Q. Do you know that on the eastern wall of the Jewish cemetery,
23 there were the Muslims, and on the western side, there were the Serbs?
24 A. No. It was the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that had Muslims,
25 Serbs and Croats, all of them, and on the right-hand side were Serbs
1 only. So that side was held by the Army of Republika Srpska. That is to
2 say that in the cemetery there were no troops of the Army of
4 Q. Well, the Army of Republika Srpska wasn't in the cemetery,
5 either, but on its western wall; right?
6 A. That's not right. You were in there.
7 Q. In this statement -- or, actually, can we admit this, this
8 picture with the number 11 that we need?
9 JUDGE KWON: Could you put your signature and date again, kindly,
10 at the bottom of this picture.
11 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 We'll admit it as D726.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Further on, you say, Mr. Gicevic, that you heard glass breaking;
17 A. I do not remember having said that at all.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Once again, can we have 65 ter
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. In the meantime, just briefly, let us deal with this issue of the
23 Do you believe that those Serbs who wanted the Republika Srpska
24 are Chetniks?
25 A. Not at all. By "Chetniks," I mean the worst part of the Serb
1 people. Let me be very specific and clear and precise on this. I'm not
2 saying that Serbs and Chetniks are one-and-the-same thing. Serbs are an
3 honourable and honest people, and Chetniks are scum.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You heard a gun-shot, screams, and glass that was breaking. It
7 is towards the middle.
8 Can we have it in English as well. That's where it starts in
10 "Suddenly I felt pain in my leg."
11 Here it says that you felt pain in your leg, heard the sound of
12 broken glass, and a shot as well as screams. Did the bullet enter
13 through the window or through metal sheets?
14 A. I'm not sure. That is where my memory is unclear after all this
16 Q. The next sentence:
17 "I'm not sure, but I think I heard two or three shots. According
18 to the sounds I heard, I'm sure that the shots came from the direction of
19 the Jewish cemetery."
20 So you heard the shots. You did not refer to the tram being hit.
21 You felt pain in your leg, et cetera.
22 A. The situation was rather chaotic. It wasn't filmed. It's not on
23 camera so that I can analyse it now. I said I heard two or three shots.
24 Were they shots, were they sounds, was it a bullet hitting a window, was
25 it a gun-shot hitting metal? I cannot say. At any rate, I was standing
1 on the tram, and it's only natural to expect that the bullet had come
2 from the right-hand side. It is only logical that it cannot come from
3 the left-hand side.
4 Q. Why can it not come from the left-hand side?
5 A. Because it follows a straight line.
6 Q. And if the Muslims fired?
7 A. I don't know where you get that idea, that the Muslims could have
8 fired, when UNPROFOR soldiers were staying there. If you think that a
9 Muslim bullet can go through an UNPROFOR APC and by UNPROFOR soldiers,
10 then you are very wrong.
11 Q. Let's move on, Mr. Gicevic.
12 How could you be sure that the gun-shot had come from the
13 direction of the Jewish cemetery? That's that sentence there.
14 A. I'm telling you again, I mentioned the Jewish cemetery and
15 Grbavica when I was describing the general direction. I never said that
16 it came exactly from that location. I was talking about the direction
17 and orientation. I said that I thought that the bullet had come from the
18 direction of Grbavica and the Jewish cemetery.
19 Q. Please do not feel harassed or attacked. I just want to be
20 precise. You say here that according to the sounds that you heard, you
21 said that you were sure that the shot had come from the Jewish cemetery.
22 I'm not attacking you. If you were sure, as you say you were, based on
23 what were you sure? Can we now modify this and say that you were not
24 quite sure that it had come from the Jewish cemetery?
25 A. The only correction that could be made is that it came from the
1 direction of Grbavica and the Jewish cemetery, as I said.
2 Q. A bullet cannot come from two directions.
3 A. Well, I don't know what you're talking about. When you talk
4 about direction, which is east-west, we're not talking about grid
5 references. So if you insist that it came from the south, we can discuss
7 Q. Excellent. But if we leave it as it is, I'm not sure that you
8 were so sure that the shot came from the Jewish cemetery.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
11 The interpreters were not able to hear your last answer,
12 Mr. Gicevic. Could you repeat it, kindly.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am positive that the bullet came
14 from the south, where the Jewish cemetery and Grbavica are located, and
15 therefore I concluded that it had come from that direction.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Now, can I please ask you to read the sentence that starts:
18 "According to the sounds ..." somewhere in the middle of the sheet.
19 A. "According to the sounds that I heard, I am sure that fire came
20 from the direction of the Jewish cemetery."
21 Q. Thank you. Now, talking about the south, between the tram,
22 wherever it is hit, and the Jewish cemetery or, rather, Grbavica, were
23 there any other positions?
24 A. I don't know which particular positions you're referring to.
25 Q. Military positions. Were there any troops deployed in the area
1 between the tram and Grbavica, someone else?
2 A. No, there weren't.
3 Q. There was no line held by the Muslims on the Miljacka River
4 A. You know very well that not a fly could survive from sniper fire,
5 let alone troops.
6 Q. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as you said, did not hold the
7 building of the Executive Council, the Assembly, the museum, the faculty,
8 et cetera. It was -- these were not under their control; is that right?
9 A. As far as I knew, those were merely observation posts manned by a
10 few soldiers.
11 Q. So why didn't the Serbs capture these positions and connect it
12 with the Marsal Tito Barracks?
13 A. Because they tried this several times and were slapped on the
15 Q. By whom?
16 A. These are just the insinuations that you are making.
17 Q. Later on, you worked on Marsal Tito number 8?
18 A. Number 5, although I am not sure about the number. It's the
19 building across the mosque and where the Forestry Administration was.
20 Q. Which building is adjacent to this building westwards?
21 A. Westwards, it is surrounded by the Sutjeska Radnik Cinemas, the
22 Institute for Public Health, Alipasina mosque. That's all.
23 Q. To the west, behind that building, was there an old military
24 hospital that was converted into a military depot?
25 A. That was a state hospital, and I am not familiar with that notion
1 of a military depot. I know that for sure because both my father and my
2 sister used to work there.
3 Q. Very well. So you don't know that next to the Forestry building
4 there was a large yard, and the big building of the old military hospital
5 that had been converted into a military depot a long time ago, and from
6 the northern part is the Kranjcevica Street; is that correct?
7 A. Well, you know very well that the old military hospital was so
8 much destroyed that it collapsed by itself, and I really cannot believe
9 what you are insinuating, that some weapons and other things were kept
10 there. It would have been put in a much more secure building, not the
11 building that collapsed by itself.
12 Q. To the west of the Forestry building, was there a complex of the
13 old military hospital? You don't have to say that it was a military
15 A. Yes, I confirm that behind the Forestry building there was an old
16 military hospital.
17 Q. Is this military hospital across the intersection between Vrazovo
18 and Tito Vraz?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You say here that you were hit in the right thigh, and that you
21 were bleeding, and that you -- actually, your girlfriend helped you to
22 tie it up with a scarf; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where were you exactly hit?
25 A. Ten or five or six centimetres above the knee.
1 Q. How far from the ground is that?
2 A. Perhaps 50 or 60 centimetres.
3 Q. It would be very important to us if we knew the exact figure.
4 A. Well, if you wish, I can stand up and have you measure it, if you
5 think that is necessary.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this 1995 statement
7 admitted into evidence, please.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. How did you leave the incident place?
10 A. When the tram stopped near the old tobacco factory, my girlfriend
11 and I went to Zagreb Hotel, and then from there we went to the
12 State Hospital
13 Q. In some statements, Mr. Gicevic, you said that you walked to the
14 hospital; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, I said that -- this memory is a little bit blurred, and I
16 cannot be quite sure whether I walked or whether I took a taxi. It's not
17 a long distance from the place where I was to the hospital.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can we have this admitted into evidence, and then we can move on.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. His statement of 15th November 1995 will be
21 admitted as Exhibit D727.
22 And I note the time. How much longer do you have with this
23 witness, Mr. Karadzic?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would need considerably more than
25 envisaged by the Trial Chamber, because there is quite a few
1 contradictions, so it's a complete [indiscernible].
2 JUDGE KWON: We'll take the break now, and you will have half an
3 hour after the break, Mr. Karadzic.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] By your leave, this is far from
5 sufficient for this single incident. Mr. Gicevic mentioned so many
6 things that if they are entered into the record, I cannot consider to
7 have a defence case. These things need to be refuted, or we have to
8 discard his statement in its entirety, or I should be allowed to
9 cross-examine him.
10 JUDGE KWON: You should have prioritized your questions. You
11 were given notice that you would have one hour and a half with this
12 witness, and you spent a lot of time asking unhelpful questions as to the
13 location of 101st Brigade or those things. Plan your remaining of your
14 cross-examination so that you can finish in half an hour after the break,
15 Mr. Karadzic.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Can we please have in e-court 65 ter 21215. Thank you.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Gicevic, can I ask you to tell us if you recognise this
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Can you please draw a line, by using an electronic pen, along the
1 then Marsala Tita Street along which the tram service runs.
2 A. I can show you where the tram runs, but this is the end of
3 Marsala Tita Street
4 Q. But can you show us the section between Marin Dvor --
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. -- and the intersection? Thank you. Can you put number 1
7 somewhere on the line?
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you. Can you please now draw a line that runs along the
10 Vranje Rackog Street.
11 A. That's the street that you're looking for, if I'm not mistaken
13 Q. Do you think that this is the street and the intersection that
14 firing took place?
15 A. Among others, yes.
16 Q. Can you please put number 2.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Can you put the number 3 where these two lines join together.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Can you now see the so-called Metalka building?
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. I think that the Metalka building is more to the west.
23 A. I am not sure. There was an advertisement on one of those
24 buildings. It's either of the two. Both of them are called "Metalka,"
25 so I'm not sure whether it's the one on the right or the left.
1 Q. Can you encircle Unioninvest building and the two red buildings
2 that you had marked previously.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And the red one with number 6.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Can we agree that the Franje Rackog Street is situated between
7 the museum and the faculty, the parallel street?
8 A. Can you please repeat the question? I didn't understand.
9 Q. Do we agree that the Franje Rackog Street is situated between the
10 museum and the faculty? Can you mark the museum with number 7 and the
11 faculty with number 8.
12 A. Museum, number 7 [marks].
13 Q. And the Faculty of Philosophy, number 8, please.
14 A. Excuse me, I made a mistake. The Franje Rackog Street is to the
16 Q. Can you mark it now correctly?
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. So that would be number 9, Franje Rackog Street?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you agree, then, that the Metalka is where these two streets
21 join or, rather, in the direction of Franje Rackog Street?
22 A. I'm telling you again, I don't remember where the advertisement
23 was placed on top of the building.
24 Q. Do you agree that this street used to be called Djure Danicica,
25 and it's now called Kosta Hermana Street?
1 A. I don't know how it was called before or how is it called now,
2 but that's the one that I marked with number 2.
3 Q. Can you please put a date in the corner of this photo - within
4 the photo, not outside of the frame - and sign it.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Although the participants know very well, but could you please
7 mark Holiday Inn with number 10 and the Executive Council building with
8 number 11.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And the Assembly number 12.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Unis high-rise buildings, number 13.
13 A. [Marks]
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Can we please admit this map -- correction, this photograph.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D728, Your Honours.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have D727 in e-court.
19 That's the statement. D727, that's your 1995 statement.
20 Can we also have the Serbian version, please. Thank you.
21 Can we now have page 2, please.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Please look where it says: "The confrontation line was 200
25 "All the tram was full. All the seats were occupied."
1 And then we have the next sentence, which starts with: "I have
2 put a red cross ..."
3 A. "I have put a red cross on a map that I have signed in order to
4 pin-point the spot where the event happened. The arrow shows the
5 direction of the tram."
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 22091, please.
7 65 ter 22091.
8 Can we please enlarge the section around Marin Dvor and the red
9 markings. Can we please enlarge it to a little bit more.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Did you put these markings?
12 A. I suppose so.
13 Q. Do you agree that it says here "Djure Danicica Street
14 the faculty and the Parliament and the Government building?
15 A. I don't see this inscription anywhere, but if you say so, I have
16 no reason not to believe you. Oh, yes, I can see it now.
17 Q. Could you please now draw a line from Unioninvest and red
18 buildings along the middle part of Djure Danicica Street, and please use
19 the blue pen.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Thank you. Can you please mark on the map the street Franje
22 Rackog Street, number 87.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Thank you. And can you put a circle around the Executive Council
25 now, and could you put a number there, let's say number 3.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Parliament, 4?
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Vrbanja Bridge
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. The Unioninvest building, 6?
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. 1 Djure Danicica Street; number 2, Rackog.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Does this map correspond to your statement of 1995?
11 A. I see that it lacks in precision a bit. I guess that when I drew
12 that asterisk -- I mean, if I were to draw it now, I would have put it to
13 the left a bit.
14 Q. And who had made that suggestion to you?
15 A. How do you get this idea that someone gave a suggestion to me?
16 No one did. I thought it would be necessary -- I mean, I just wanted to
17 show the place where the incident took place, roughly. I was not
18 measuring it in metres. If I were to be doing it now, I would pay
19 attention to every little metre or centimetre, in terms of where I placed
20 the asterisk.
21 Q. Let me just read this:
22 "I used a red cross to mark on the map the spot where the event
24 So could we have today's date and your initials on this document
1 A. [Marks]
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?
3 JUDGE KWON: If you continue from that red asterisk, you marked
4 another asterisk in blue or something like that. What does it refer to,
5 Mr. Gicevic, if you remember?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see a blue asterisk.
7 Ah-hah, that is Marsala Tita Street, where I worked. And from this white
8 skyscraper, there was sniper fire. Then this is the intersection of
9 these streets.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Can you put a circle now in red or blue - it's one-and-the-same
12 thing - around the building where you worked and the intersection of
13 these two streets, Titova and Vrazova?
14 A. Now, what number would that be? 7, if I'm not mistaken.
15 Q. I believe it's 7.
16 A. [Marks]
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D729, Your Honours.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. What is 8?
22 A. The intersection, the BH Suma, the Cinemas of Sutjeska near the
23 Hygiene Institute.
24 Q. Radava?
25 A. Radava is the next street.
1 Q. Can you put a line along Vrazova?
2 A. It's right below this asterisk. As far as I can see, it should
3 be here [marks]. Yes, it should be 369.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Do we need to place the
5 date here again, and should it be signed?
6 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
7 JUDGE KWON: Do we need this? Very well.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
9 speaker. Could all other microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this been recorded, the circles
11 around Suma and the rest? Actually, those previous markings, Djure
12 Danicica and Rackog, that previous map with the markings, the previous
13 map with the previous markings?
14 JUDGE KWON: I think we can safely move on.
15 Shall we keep this one? Is it necessary?
16 Then can you take a look at the previous one which we just saved.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellent. If it's been admitted,
18 then it's fine.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let's move on.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Gicevic, how many gun-shots did you hear?
22 A. I heard two or three sounds. Now, was it a gun-shot, was it
23 impact on metal or glass or my leg, or was it the sound of a bullet being
24 fired? I don't know, but I heard two or three sounds.
25 Q. What was the time that elapsed between them?
1 A. It's hundredths of a second.
2 Q. Like a burst of gun-fire?
3 A. Not like a burst of gun-fire.
4 Q. But hundredths of a second, that means it could have been at
5 least 30 and 1 second [as interpreted]?
6 A. All right, then tenths of a second.
7 Q. Thank you. Can you help us with this now: How far up from the
8 floor is your wound?
9 A. I told you a moment ago; 50 centimetres.
10 Q. Above the knee?
11 A. It's right by the knee, itself.
12 Q. It was a bullet fragment that hit you; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How did that happen if the bullet had not hit another obstacle
15 before that?
16 A. You're asking me way too much. I'm not a doctor or a forensic
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 15525, could we have that,
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. And while we're waiting: Mr. Gicevic, was there any fighting on
22 that day in that area?
23 A. As far as I know, the two or three days before Bajram, it was
24 peaceful, or relatively peaceful, rather.
25 Q. While we're waiting for the document: How many wounded or killed
1 persons did you transport? Did you transport the wounded and the killed
2 of the 101st Brigade?
3 A. Only the wounded.
4 Q. How many?
5 A. Thirty to forty.
6 Q. Per day?
7 A. No. The first half year, I carried the wounded, and then for
8 about a year, I worked as a driver. So during that period, it was
9 perhaps 20 or 30 or 60. I mean, I really can't remember.
10 Q. So 60 over a period of 360 days?
11 A. I wasn't always at the front-line.
12 Q. Thank you. I would like to draw your attention to the 3rd of
13 March, 1995. This is a regular combat report to the president of
14 Republika Srpska and the corps commanders. It's a report sent by the
15 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
16 Could we have page 2.
17 Have a look at what it says, paragraph 4: "The enemy ...," and
18 then it's the Majevica front -- actually, no, sorry, 3, paragraph 3:
19 "The Sarajevo
20 grenades in the area of Vrbanja bridge ..."
21 And so on and so forth:
22 "They opened fire from PATs, PAMs. Our forces were unaffected."
23 Do you see that?
24 A. I do.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Can this document be admitted?
2 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. That's just what I
4 wanted to say.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. How many wounded were there in this tram incident, Mr. Gicevic?
9 A. Two or three.
10 Q. You were wounded in the leg. Somebody who was sitting was hit in
11 the abdomen; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you give your seat to that person?
14 A. I cannot remember.
15 Q. Do you know that a bullet was taken out of that man's abdomen
16 that was 7.62 millimetres?
17 A. I really don't know.
18 Q. All right. You live in Dzidzikovac Street number 8; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the map, 9390C, and
22 then section 7.
23 This is not 7. Can we have 7? This is 5.
24 Yes, this is it. Can you zoom in on the lower central part.
25 Precisely, over there. Thank you.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Gicevic, can you mark Dzidzikovac Street for us and the place
3 where your apartment was?
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you. So is this Dzidzikovac and Sutjeska merging into one?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what is the building below number 1?
8 A. That is Dom Milicija, the police building.
9 Q. Can you put a circle around Dom Milicija and mark it with
10 number 2.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Can you draw a line along Cekalusa, which used to be Nemanjina?
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Thank you very much. Further on, towards Bolnicka, could you
15 draw a line there and then mark the School of Dentistry
16 School of Dentistry
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. So it's the Secondary School of Dentistry
19 university building of the School of Dentistry
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know that there were commands and bunkers there and
22 artillery pieces?
23 A. I don't know what kind of bunkers you're talking about in the
24 center of town. Now, whether there was some commands there, that is
1 Q. Thank you. Could you just put a little cross there, "X1," where
2 you were wounded by a shell in Cekalusa?
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Mr. Gicevic, can you explain to us now from which position
5 somebody could have targeted your apartment using a sniper?
6 A. From Grbavica and artillery pieces could have targeted it from
7 Trebevic. So this is the direction of artillery fire [marks], and this
8 is the direction -- I didn't say of sniper fire. I said rifle fire and
9 larger calibres as well.
10 Q. So then could you put number 6 there for artillery fire, as you
11 had put it.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And the one towards Grbavica -- well, how far is it from the Serb
14 positions in Grbavica to your apartment? How big is the distance?
15 A. It's a pretty big distance, but don't tell me that a PAM cannot
16 deal with that.
17 Q. Was your apartment hit with a PAM?
18 A. It wasn't hit by a PAM, but there is nothing that did not hit it;
19 tank shells, PAMs, PATs, rifle fire. We had an entire collection of
20 souvenirs that we just threw away.
21 Q. Mr. Gicevic, you said that your apartment had been hit by sniper
22 fire from Serb positions. Can you tell us from which Serb positions your
23 apartment was hit, within what range?
24 A. I said "fire."
25 Q. Would you please put the date and your initials on this map.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. While the map is still there, could you please mark
3 Bjelave Street right there?
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you. Do you know what was in Dom Milicija, the police
7 A. Well, it was a police building and there were some police units
9 Q. Do you know where the training centre was at Bjelave?
10 A. I cannot say where the training centre was at Bjelave.
11 Q. Thank you. Now let me remind you of your statement that you gave
12 on the 21st of April, 2006
13 "Apart from shelling, our apartment had been hit 10 or 15 times
14 by sniper fire."
15 A. When I said "sniper," I meant "ammunition." I did not say that
16 somebody targeted me while I was standing at the window. After all, the
17 building is still scarred, so if you come there, you can check for
18 yourself, and you will see that there are hundreds and hundreds of
19 potholes on these buildings that were hit in this way.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll go back to this statement
21 where it says it was sniper fire. Thank you.
22 So can we have this admitted?
23 JUDGE KWON: This map marked by the witness will be admitted as
24 Exhibit D731.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Gicevic, on this map scale it seems that from Grbavica to
2 your apartment, there is more two kilometres.
3 A. Well, roughly. Perhaps a bit less.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have something
5 else now?
6 You worked in the Forestry building.
7 Can we now have 1D2542.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Can you please mark here the building where you worked, the
10 Institute of Hygiene
11 JUDGE KWON: Just hold it a minute.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked on the ground floor of
13 this building.
14 JUDGE KWON: Could you kindly wait until the usher helps you
15 right now.
16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]. So this is the building where I worked
17 [marks]. This is the Institute of Hygiene
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Number 2, you worked on the ground floor?
20 A. Yes. [Marks]. Number 3 is the Hygiene Institute, and then we
21 have the mosque.
22 Q. We are in a haste because we are pressed for time. So number 1
23 is the building where you worked, number 2 is the Institute of Hygiene
24 is --
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. 3 should be the mosque.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 Q. Can you please now mark on the pavement, or even on the road
3 itself, where the detour into Vrazova Street is?
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And can you mark the building where we have the sign "Vrazova,"
6 mark the wall viewed from Titova Street?
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. And could you also put the date and your initials.
9 A. [Marks]
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this admitted
11 into evidence?
12 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit D732.
13 Mr. Karadzic, you will have five minutes to conclude.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that would mean that I
15 wouldn't have been finished, if you don't extend it. We are trying to be
16 as quick as possible.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the document
19 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the number?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D02541.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Do you recognise this intersection?
23 A. Yes. It's the same one that we looked a minute ago, only viewed
24 from a different angle.
25 Q. On this red building, viewed from Titova Street, can you put
1 number 1, which you previously marked with number 5? Now you will get
2 some assistance.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Thank you. Can you draw a line along the Vrazova Street so that
5 we can know it's Vrazova Street? Number 2.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Now the central line along Titova Street.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Now, Mr. Gicevic, in the background, on the horizon, can you
10 indicate a line that indicates the road via Trebevic [marks].
11 A. Well, that could be it.
12 Q. That's right. Do you agree that the name of this hill is
14 A. Yes, above Vranjaca [marks].
15 Q. Vranjaca is below this line.
16 A. As far as I know, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you know where the separation line was in this
18 location? Or, more precisely, can you use a red pen and mark it?
19 A. I cannot find my bearings here. This resolution is too small and
20 I honestly cannot see. I know that the VRS was up there [marks] where
21 this line on Zlatiste goes on, but I cannot be more precise as to where
22 the separation line was. But, anyway, below these pine trees.
23 Q. Can you now draw a line starting a little below the blue line and
24 the intersection, itself?
25 A. I don't know what you are talking about. I never said that shots
1 came here. I said that the shots came from the white high-rise building
2 on Titova Street.
3 Q. I'm only asking you to draw a straight line from the separation
4 line all the way to the intersection.
5 A. I don't know which separation line or point you referred to.
6 Which one would you like?
7 Q. In the middle, all the way to the intersection.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And more to the east?
10 A. Well, that's what you told me to mark.
11 Q. Well, then, put another line from the far east.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. That's the middle. Can you do it from the far eastern part?
14 A. No, I cannot.
15 Q. Why not?
16 A. Because I think these were the VRS positions to the left of the
17 Jewish cemetery, if that is what you are referring to.
18 Q. Can we see the Jewish cemetery here?
19 A. As far as I can see, one cannot see it. If we can enlarge it,
20 but at the moment I cannot see it.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you now put the letter S in this photograph above
22 the Serb-controlled territory.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Mr. Gicevic, who controlled the area between the road and Titova
1 A. The majority of this territory was under the ABH Army control.
2 Q. Could you please put "ABH," and can you put parallel lines to
3 shade this area from the blue line all the way down there.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And who controlled the part that you didn't shade?
6 A. I don't know because I don't know where the Jewish cemetery is
7 here. There is very few things that I can see here in order to be
8 precise in marking.
9 Q. Could you please put the date and your initials on this picture.
10 A. [Marks].
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we please tender it into
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I will allow you just one last
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be tendered into evidence,
16 and then can I have 1D02543.
17 And for the record, I would like to say that this is a shame that
18 this witness could not have been properly examined and that the Defence
19 believe that everything related to this witness should be discarded,
20 because everything was done to the detriment of the Defence case.
21 JUDGE KWON: Unhelpful statement.
22 This was -- it will be admitted as D733.
23 And your last item?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, can we have 1D02543.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Is this the side of the building viewed from Titova Street that
2 you marked?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Can you see these two pockmarks on the facade?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Are there bullet traces?
7 A. I cannot say. Really, I cannot.
8 Q. Can you circle them in this photograph.
9 A. How do you know this was not caused by shells?
10 JUDGE KWON: If you can see them, what's the point of asking the
11 witness to mark them? It's obvious.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 Q. Mr. Gicevic, if these are rifle bullet traces, where did they
14 come from?
15 A. I'm not saying at all that these were rifle bullet traces. This
16 could have been caused by shells as well. And you're asking me about
17 something that I never said. I said that fire came along
18 Marsala Tita Street from the white high-rising building on Grbavica.
19 Q. Is it possible that this could have come from Grbavica?
20 A. No, never.
21 Q. So this is viewed from your building and the building of the
22 Hygiene Institute?
23 A. I could see this wall from my window.
24 Q. Can you please put the date and your initials.
25 JUDGE KWON: Unnecessary. We'll admit this as Exhibit D734.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now it would be necessary to
2 establish whether there was a visibility between this intersection and
3 Grbavica and the distance, but I don't have time for that.
4 THE WITNESS: If you give me a proper picture, I will show to you
5 that there was a line of sight between this place and the white building.
6 JUDGE KWON: Just let me consult --
7 THE ACCUSED: We have the photograph. We only need time.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: That was said by the
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE KWON: Conclude in 10 minutes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Can we now have 1D02544.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Is that the same intersection?
16 A. Yes, and you can see the tops of the white high-rise buildings on
17 the right and then everything will be clear to you.
18 Q. Can you see the Assembly building?
19 A. Yes, I can.
20 Q. And where did these incidents happen?
21 A. This is exactly where they happened. I was even present when
22 UNPROFOR fired --
23 Q. Over the building of the Assembly?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mr. Gicevic, do you agree that between this white high-rise
1 building and the incident location, there were enough places where BH
2 Army was deployed?
3 A. Yes.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted into
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D735, Your Honours.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. How did it come about that in official documents of the
10 investigators of BH MUP, it is written that you were wounded in the lower
12 A. I really don't know the details. I think that you should ask the
13 person who compiled this report. I don't know.
14 Q. Do you have any explanation whatsoever for so many discrepancies
15 and differences in the statements that you gave as well as between your
16 statements and those provided by the police?
17 A. I don't know where these discrepancies are. I answered your
18 questions to the best of my knowledge, but the consequences of shelling
19 and bullets are felt both on my body and in my soul.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D02534. Thank
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Gicevic, can you tell us, please, what do you see in this
25 A. I see the intersection leading to Vrbanja Bridge
1 Assembly building. I see Zlatiste and the area around the
2 Jewish cemetery.
3 Q. Can you mark all these locations that you enumerated? What is
4 behind these boards? Is that the old tobacco factory?
5 A. Yes, this is where the old tobacco factory is situated.
6 Q. Now, can you put an arrow or a number 1 where the old tobacco
7 factory is.
8 A. [Marks] This is the old tobacco factory.
9 Q. Can you now mark the Assembly building.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Thank you. Now, in the background can you mark these locations
12 on the hill? What is on the very peak of the hill?
13 A. Zlatiste [marks].
14 Q. Who controlled Zlatiste, the town and the fortress?
15 A. The Army of Republika Srpska.
16 Q. Can you see it in the photograph?
17 A. Well, you cannot, but more or less it is situated here in this
18 forest. I can't see it exactly.
19 Q. Who controlled all these houses in the entire area between the
20 forest and the intersection?
21 A. The line would approximately run like this.
22 Q. So in respect of that, where is the Jewish cemetery?
23 A. I don't know whether it's to the left or to the right. I don't
24 know. One centimetre either side. I can't see it clearly [marks].
25 Q. Let me help you, Mr. Gicevic. Is it true that neither to the
1 left, nor to the right, there was no area controlled by the Serbs?
2 A. It's not correct. They controlled everything to the right.
3 Q. Can you draw the separation line?
4 A. This is approximately the separation line.
5 Q. In this photograph, where is the location that you marked back in
7 A. I don't know which place you're referring to, but at any rate, I
8 can't see it in this photograph. If you can provide a more precise
9 resolution or if we move to the right, then I can do so.
10 Q. What's the name of the street that leads to Vrbanja Bridge
11 that Vladimir Cosica Street?
12 A. No, I can't remember. It's a very short street and there's only
13 the Assembly building on it.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gicevic, could you tell us what number 4 refers
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. It's the street that
17 comes out to the Vrbanja Bridge
18 containers were, two of them, there were five or six. And it's
19 impossible that the tram was hit, if this is what Mr. Karadzic
20 insinuates, because there were two or three containers, one on top of the
21 other here, at least five to six metres tall, and the entire intersection
22 was closed off by these containers.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Could you now mark with 5 where the tram stopped after the
1 A. The tram stopped in front of this vehicle or a bit more, about 10
2 metres or so in this direction [marks].
3 Q. Thank you. Can you please write the date and put your initials.
4 A. [Marks]
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I believe that the
6 additional time which I was given has been spent now.
7 Can we please have this admitted?
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D736, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, do you have any re-examination?
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, but very briefly.
12 JUDGE KWON: Please.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have 65 ter 10129 on the
14 screen. And as it is coming up: It is the statement from the 21st of
15 April, 2006, that was discussed during the cross-examination, and I would
16 like to have page 2. Yes.
17 Re-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
18 Q. Mr. Gicevic, you have spoken during the cross-examination about
19 various statements that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1995,
20 and here this from 1996. I would like to refer you to paragraph 3.
21 Did you, in fact, make corrections when you gave this statement
22 in 1996, referring to that you made in the previous statement?
23 A. Yes, these were the changes about the locations where the tram
24 stopped, because in the English version, when I read it several years
25 later in the Bosnian language, I could see that there was something
1 illogical in the English version of the statement; namely, that I was
2 standing on the left side of the tram.
3 Q. Did you also make a correction in relation to whether you used a
4 taxi or not?
5 A. Yes, I also said that as well, that my memory about that is not
6 clear and that I believed that I walked all the way to the
7 State Hospital
8 Q. Thank you. And my last question: You have marked on some maps
9 also today, and I just wanted to confirm with you, when the tram was hit,
10 was that before the bend or curve that you mentioned, in the street, or
12 A. I assert that the tram was hit before the S-curve, and I know
13 this because, due to fear and because the tram changed the direction
14 quickly, we all fell down, and the tram went on very fast all the way to
15 the place which I marked; that is to say, the old tobacco factory.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. These are my
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I ask just one question, Your
19 Honours? My learned friend Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff said that a change was
20 made, but it was not changed in 2006, not the location of the incident
21 and the star which marks where the tram was hit. The map has not been
23 Further cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Gicevic? Item 3 and the entire statement
1 from 2006 do not make any issue about your map from 1995?
2 A. I don't know what you are talking about. You have to understand
3 that the victim at the moment when he or she is hit is not looking around
4 and recording and does not have such a power in his head to determine,
5 with half a metre precision, where the incident happened exactly. You
6 have to understand in such panic that one has to see how to save one's
7 head, rather than try to act as a film star, as if the whole incident was
9 Q. Mr. Gicevic, you said here that --
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's obvious from his statement. You
11 can make a submission in relation to that.
12 That concludes your evidence, Mr. Gicevic, and I thank you for
13 coming to The Hague
14 you have a safe journey back home. Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE KWON: I was advised that the next witness, who is
18 protected, albeit in a limited nature, needs some time to accommodate the
19 courtroom because he has a face distortion, and I was told that the staff
20 needs some 10 minutes to prepare for him. So we'll have an adjournment
21 for 10 minutes.
22 --- Break taken at 11.46 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.57 a.m.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE KWON: With hindsight, we could have taken a longer break.
1 But we'll have a short break in the middle.
2 Yes. If the witness could take the solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: MIRZA SABLJICA
6 [The witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please be seated.
8 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
9 Examination by Mr. Gaynor:
10 Q. Witness, could you state your full name, please.
11 A. My name is Mirza Sabljica.
12 Q. You've previously testified before this Tribunal in the trials of
13 Stanislav Galic, Dragomir Milosevic and Momcilo Perisic; is that right?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. And you've previously given statements to representatives of the
16 Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?
17 A. Yes, I did give statements to the OTP.
18 Q. On the 10th and 11th of February of this year, you reviewed an
19 amalgamated statement which consolidated relevant parts of your earlier
20 evidence; is that right?
21 A. Yes, precisely.
22 Q. And you had an opportunity to review that statement again when
23 you were here in The Hague
24 A. That's also correct.
25 MR. GAYNOR: Can I have 65 ter 22248, please.
1 Q. On the screen in front of you, do you see the first page of your
2 amalgamated statement?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. And would you provide the same answers if you were asked, under
5 oath, about those topics today?
6 A. Yes, of course.
7 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, I'd now seek the admission of the
8 amalgamated statement and the exhibits referred to in the statement,
9 which are listed on the final two pages of the statement.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
11 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, we would ask that the amalgamated
12 statement be redacted to exclude two unscheduled incidents, one on
13 page 54, a shelling incident at Kosevsko Brdo on the 8th of November,
14 1994, and the other on page 63, sniping of a moving car on the 9th of
15 November, 1994. We've dealt with these issues in the past, but we
16 continue to believe that the probative value of including unscheduled
17 incidents is outweighed by the prejudicial effect, particularly the time
18 that would be required and resources for us to have to investigate and
19 present evidence to rebut those incidents. And we also believe that the
20 expenditure of time by the Trial Chamber, given the constraints that it
21 puts on Dr. Karadzic's cross-examination, it would be unwise in admitting
22 these scheduled incidents -- unscheduled incidents. And, finally, it has
23 been our argument that to allow the Prosecution to adduce evidence of
24 unscheduled incidents circumvents Rule 73 bis (D) in which you limited
25 the Prosecution and ordered them to reduce the scheduled incidents in the
2 Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor.
4 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Mr. President.
5 As Mr. Robinson acknowledges, Your Honours have already ruled on
6 this issue in respect of the amalgamated statement of Ekrem Suljevic, and
7 essentially Mr. Robinson is asking you to address a matter which has been
8 ruled upon. As we submitted in that instance, the unscheduled incidents
9 are relevant to the questions of the widespread and systematic nature of
10 the attack against the civilian population, and they are also relevant to
11 the allegations of a campaign of shelling and sniping. The scheduled
12 incidents are merely illustrative examples of that campaign.
13 And to clarify the record, these incidents were not -- that
14 Mr. Robinson has referred to were not struck from the indictment in
15 accordance with Your Honour's order under Rule 73 bis. They were, in
16 fact, unscheduled to begin with. They were not listed in the schedules
17 in the first place.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, the Chamber ruled upon this issue, I just
19 simply reiterate it, although they are not germane to the charges charged
20 in the indictment, but they are relevant to the pattern or the nature of
21 the campaign. So on that basis, we do not accept your request,
22 Mr. Robinson.
23 But let me take a look at the exhibit you referred to. Bear with
24 me a minute.
25 Can I take it you refer to the list of exhibits to be tendered as
1 a part of the associated exhibit?
2 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, these are all exhibits which form an integral
3 part of his evidence and which are listed on the last two pages of his
5 JUDGE KWON: My understanding is a lot of items were not
6 up-loaded when the Chamber staff checked with e-court. Are they
7 up-loaded, all the maps and those things?
8 Separate from that, you have no objection to the admission of
9 those exhibits, Mr. Robinson?
10 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct, Mr. President, apart from those
11 that deal with unscheduled incidents.
12 MR. GAYNOR: We'll double-check that they've all been properly
14 JUDGE KWON: Can I raise -- draw your attention to the exhibit,
15 the Rule 65 ter number of which bears the number 20897 --
16 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE KWON: -- which is a CSB investigation file. The report
18 was mentioned during the witness's testimony in a prior case, but the
19 witness was told that he may use that report if he needs to refresh his
20 memory. However, in the amalgamated statement, he never indicated that
21 such an occasion arose, and, therefore, I'm not sure whether it forms a
22 kind of associated exhibit. So, if necessary, I would like you to go
23 through that document. And in the course of the previous witness,
24 there's an investigation report that was deferred to this witness's
1 MR. GAYNOR: Very well, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE KWON: So with that exception -- with the exception of that
3 20897, all the other items will be admitted. And the numbers of those
4 items will be given in due course by the Court Deputy and circulated.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE KWON: We'll give the number for his statement now.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1695, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
9 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 I now propose to read a summary of the evidence for the benefit
11 of the public.
12 Mr. Mirza Sabljica served as a forensic ballistics analyst with
13 the Security Services Centre, or CSB, in Sarajevo
14 participated in ballistic investigations of shelling and sniping
15 incidents in Sarajevo
16 used when investigating incidents, including the method of determining
17 the calibre of the projectile, the direction of fire, and the angle of
18 descent at the point of impact. He also discusses documentary evidence
19 prepared by his team and others relating to a number of different
20 shelling and sniping incidents, including the shelling of a football game
21 in Dobrinja on the 1st of June, 1993, the shelling of a civilian location
22 where a group of children were playing in the snow on 22nd January 1994
23 the shelling of a residential area in Dobrinja on the 4th of February,
24 1994, and the shelling of the Markale Market on the 5th of February,
1 In respect of the Markale Market incident, Mr. Sabljica describes
2 the work done upon his arrival at the scene of the shelling after the
3 shelling had taken place, including the measurement of the shell crater
4 and the inspection of the traces on the ground. He concluded, on the
5 basis of his measurements, that the projectile had come from a
6 north-north-eastern direction at a bearing of approximately 18 degrees.
7 In respect of the shelling of the children playing in the snow on
8 the 22nd of January, 1994, Mr. Sabljica's statement refers to his report
9 of the incident, in which he concluded that the projectiles had been
10 fired from positions in Nedzarici, an area which was under Bosnian Serb
12 Mr. Sabljica participated in approximately 60 investigations into
13 incidents of sniping. At least a dozen of those concerned the sniping of
14 trams. In his statement, he describes the methodology of a sniping
16 Among the sniping incidents he discusses are a sniping attack on
17 the tram of 23rd of November, 1994, and a sniping attack on the tram on
18 the 5th of February, 1994. He states that the origin of sniper fire was
19 often the Metalka building and other high-rise buildings in Grbavica, an
20 area under Bosnian Serb control.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Sabljica, I propose to deal, first of all, with certain
22 sniping incidents, the sniping part of your statement.
23 First of all, this is at pages 60 and 61 of Mr. Sabljica's
24 statement. There's no need for you to refer to it yourself,
25 Mr. Sabljica.
1 In 1996, you said that after the reintegration of Grbavica, you
2 went to visit four high-rise buildings where, on the higher parts of the
3 buildings, you found five or six apartments which had been redesigned to
4 serve as sniper nests. Do you recall that evidence?
5 A. Yes, I do recall.
6 Q. And could you briefly describe the nature of the apartments? How
7 did you conclude that they were sniper nests?
8 A. Based on the order of the chief of the relevant department and an
9 investigative judge, after the reintegration of Grbavica, we examined
10 certain facilities on the left bank of the Miljacka River
11 suspected fire was opened against civilian buildings and trams during the
12 war in Sarajevo
13 Lenjinova Street, which is now Grbavicka Street. These are four
14 buildings which are 18 floors' tall, each of them, and we managed to
15 locate five or six apartments in these buildings which were redesigned
16 for a specific purpose, to be used as sniper nests, as you call them. I
17 must say that, until then, I had never seen anything like that. But
18 thanks to two of my older colleagues who were then with
19 me - unfortunately, they are no longer alive - Mr. Medjedovic and
20 Mr. Stankov, I managed to get a fuller picture of that.
21 Let me explain how these apartments looked. All the walls in the
22 apartments had been cut in a specific way, or holes had been bored in
23 them so that the outer wall of the apartment, which overlooks the right
24 bank of the Miljacka River
25 room the opening was bigger, and in the third room it was the biggest
1 opening, where in certain apartments we even found sand sacks and also
2 parapets on which those who were firing against targets on the right bank
3 of the river would lean. So that's it.
4 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now a request a map which is -- an aerial
5 photograph, in fact, which is 90193.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. When this document comes up, I'd like you to mark the four
8 18-storey buildings that you just referred to where you found those
10 A. I will mark them now [marks]. It's these four buildings.
11 Q. Could you put a "1" next to that, please.
12 A. [Marks] Number 1.
13 Q. In your statement, you also refer to - this is pages 62 and 63 -
14 a visit to the Metalka building. Could you mark the Metalka building
15 with a "2," please.
16 A. This is the Metalka building, number 2 [marks].
17 Q. In your statement, you say that you did not find the same kind of
18 sniper shelters there that you had seen in the four high-rise buildings.
19 Do you recall that?
20 A. Yes, I recall that. In Metalka, we did not find something like
21 what we found in the four high-rises in Lenjinova Street.
22 Q. In the Metalka building, did you find anything to suggest that
23 that building had been used as a location for sniper fire -- from which
24 sniper fire could take place?
25 A. One of the apartments, I think, on the eighth floor, because the
1 building has eight floors, we found something that was a sort of
2 improvised snipers' nest with an opening on one of the walls, and we also
3 found some empty shells, automatic weapon empty shells. They were inside
4 the apartment.
5 Q. Could you mark on the map the location of the Holiday Inn and
6 place a "3" next to that.
7 A. The Holiday Inn Hotel, here it is [marks].
8 Q. Are you aware of the location of an S-curve in the tram tracks in
9 that vicinity?
10 A. Yes, it's here [indicates]. Should I mark it?
11 Q. Yes, please.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Now, in your investigation of sniping incidents of trams,
14 specifically, could you give the Court an idea of how many investigations
15 you participated in or with which you are familiar?
16 A. Well, we conducted 10 or 12 investigations focusing on trams
17 which were targeted, of which 6 are documented by our findings, because
18 there were victims in these 6, those who were injured or wounded. And it
19 was possible to bring back those cars to the approximate position where
20 they had been hit. And in the other six, it was just a criminal and
21 forensic investigation and there was not sufficient evidence in order to
22 make ballistic reports and analyses, so that we did not even write down
23 such reports.
24 Q. Could you mark on the map the zone in which those sniping
25 incidents took place; the sniping of trams, specifically.
1 A. All along this street, Vojvoda Putnik Street or Smaja od Bosne
2 Street. But let me mark it [marks], but one intersection close to the
3 Social Security building cannot be seen here from Bratstvo-Jedinstvo all
4 the way to Skenderija. This was the dangerous zone, the so-called Sniper
5 Alley, along which it was very risky to move for civilians, vehicles, and
6 anyone else.
7 Q. And did all of the tram incidents which you investigated take
8 place within that zone that you've marked?
9 A. All incidents that had to do with trams occurred in the area
10 between the intersection where the Social Security building is to the
11 intersection of Franje Rackog Street and Vojvoda Putnik Street
12 approximately where the S-curve is situated, that was the most dangerous
13 zone for trams. And in the other part of the street, it was more
14 pedestrians, civilians, who were walking along and who were hit.
15 Q. Can I ask you to mark specifically the beginning and the end of
16 the zone in which the trams were shot at.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Could you mark the figure 4 at the beginning of the zone and the
19 figure 5 at the end of the zone, please.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Now, if you could just sign and date that, please. And I would
22 ask that that be admitted.
23 THE WITNESS: Should I sign the document?
24 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
1 MR. GAYNOR: I would request that that marked up-version of
2 that --
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be the next Prosecution exhibit.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1724.
5 MR. GAYNOR: I would now request that 65 ter 07048A be brought
6 up, please.
7 JUDGE KWON: Could we have the number again?
8 MR. GAYNOR: 07 --
9 JUDGE KWON: No, no, the exhibit number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1724.
11 JUDGE KWON: 24?
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. 1724, yes.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Now, if we could focus on the top left of the map,
16 Q. If you can read that part of the map, could you tell us what that
17 says? If you could just read that out in your own language,
18 Mr. Suljevic -- sorry, Mr. Sabljica.
19 A. "Working Map of the Chief, Command of the 12th dKoV," beginning
20 0700 hours, 15th of March, 1995, and 700 hours, 31st of May, 1996.
21 MR. GAYNOR: Could we now zoom in on central Sarajevo, please.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Sabljica, are you able to locate the Holiday Inn on this
24 A. I'll try.
25 MR. GAYNOR: Perhaps we can move the map a little to the right,
2 JUDGE KWON: If necessary, we can zoom in further.
3 MR. GAYNOR: If we could move further to the right, please. In
4 fact, we could zoom in a little more, please.
5 THE WITNESS: Here [indicates].
6 MR. GAYNOR:
7 Q. If you could just mark it with an H for the Holiday Inn.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Now, underneath the Holiday Inn, do you see the pattern of the
10 tram tracks?
11 A. Yes, I can see that.
12 Q. Could you mark the location of the S-curve there, just with S.
13 A. Here it is [marks].
14 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. Sabljica. If you could sign that.
15 I would ask that that be admitted, please.
16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
17 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1725, Your Honours.
19 MR. GAYNOR:
20 Q. Mr. Sabljica, you've lived in Sarajevo your whole life; is that
22 A. Yes, that's correct, I'm a native of Sarajevo and I still live
24 Q. You're familiar with the location of that S-curve from your
25 investigations and from your residency in Sarajevo?
1 A. Of course. It has not been moved during the last 30 years.
2 I think in the early 1980s the tram tracks were reconstructed and
3 rebuilt, and I think that at that time the S-curve was built there,
4 roughly sometime before the Winter Olympic Games. And since then, it has
5 not been moved.
6 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now like to show you D654, please.
7 Q. If we could take this map, and this time, Mr. Sabljica, if you
8 could inspect the location of the tram lines in the vicinity of the
9 Holiday Inn. Are you able to see that?
10 A. Yes, I can see that.
11 Q. Is this map an accurate depiction of the tram lines of Sarajevo
12 during the period 1992 to 1995?
13 A. No. As you can see in this map, the tram tracks go along the
14 Borisa Kidrica Boulevard. I remember that it was the time when the
16 from the time before the reconstruction, before the Olympic Games, and
17 this tram line did not exist between 1992 and 1995. The tram tracks had
18 already been reconstructed and were looking as they still look today.
19 Q. Just for clarity, if you could circle the boulevard to which
20 you've just referred.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Is there any indication on this map of an S-curve in front of the
23 Holiday Inn?
24 A. Here, at the intersection of Trscanska and Titova. It was also
25 quite a long time ago, before the reconstruction of the tramways in the
1 early 1980s.
2 Q. I would request you to sign that, please, Mr. Sabljica.
3 A. [Marks]
4 MR. GAYNOR: I request that be admitted, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1726, Your Honours.
7 MR. GAYNOR: For the record, that was the map used by
8 Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination of Witness Patrick van der Weijden,
9 and the origin of the map is the Government of the United States,
10 Department of Defence of the United States.
11 Q. Now, I'm going to show you two investigation files, Mr. Sabljica.
12 Could I call up 10439, please.
13 The investigation file which is coming up now, Your Honours,
14 deals with incident F16 on the 3rd of March, 1995, which includes the
15 sniping of Alen Gicevic.
16 Do you see the table of contents, as it were, on the right-hand
17 side of the screen in front of you, Mr. Sabljica?
18 A. Yes, I can see that.
19 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review this dossier of documents
20 earlier today?
21 A. Yes, while I was waiting in the witness room.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Could we move to the seventh page in English, which
23 is the fifth page in B/C/S.
24 Could we move to the next page in B/C/S, please.
25 Q. On the document in front of you, in approximately the middle of
1 the page, it contains your name, Mr. Sabljica; is that correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. You were a participant in this sniping investigation; is that
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. Are you in a position to confirm that the documents which you
7 inspected relating -- that this dossier of documents is an authentic set
8 of documents?
9 A. Yes, it is a whole.
10 MR. GAYNOR: If we could move to the next page in English and the
11 next page in B/C/S. We may need to enlarge the English somewhat.
12 Q. There's a reference here. I'll read it out, Mr. Sabljica. It
14 "Members of the Anti-Sniper team of the UNPROFOR French Battalion
15 returned fire. One French soldier was wounded in the head in the
16 exchange of fire."
17 That's the end of the extract.
18 Were you asked to specifically investigate the injury suffered by
19 the French UNPROFOR soldier after the French returned fire?
20 A. On the basis of an order of an investigative judge - I think it
21 was Mr. Mico Potparic, who was head of the team - after we examined the
22 tram in accordance with the instructions issued by the judge, we tried to
23 investigate this wounding incident of the member of the French Battalion.
24 However, his command did not agree, so we did not do that.
25 MR. GAYNOR: I would request that the -- that this dossier of
1 documents be admitted into evidence, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1727, Your Honours.
4 MR. GAYNOR: I want to take you now, Mr. Sabljica, to another
6 I'd like to call up D681, please. This is an UNPROFOR memorandum
7 dated the 27th of October, 1994, addressed to General Rose. The subject
8 header states: "Sector Sarajevo brief, 26th to 27th October 1994."
9 If we could move to the second page of the document.
10 At the top of the document, Mr. Sabljica, you understand enough
11 English to see the words:
12 "1735 hours, 25 Oct., tram shot area Bratsva Br and reported
13 eight injured"?
14 Do you see that, Mr. Sabljica?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, a few lines further down, we see the words:
17 "All evidence and corroboration by Bosnian officials indicate
18 shots came from Bosnian-held territory."
19 Do you see that?
20 A. Yes, I see that.
21 MR. GAYNOR: I want to ask you a couple of questions about that,
22 and I would like to call up 10512A, please.
23 Q. The document in front of you is issued by the Republic of Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina
1 first paragraph, to an incident at 1735 hours on the 25th of October,
2 1994, when a tram came under small-arms fire in the vicinity of the
3 Pofalici tram stop.
4 Mr. Sabljica, you're referred to as the sixth participant in this
5 investigation on this page. Do you see that?
6 A. Yes, I do see that. Yes, it is me under number 6.
7 Q. You had an opportunity to review this document earlier today; is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. GAYNOR: If we could move to the next page of this document.
11 Q. We see a reference, in the English version, to -- the sentence
13 "In the background of this street runs the Miljacka River
14 which in Grbavica PZT there is a three-storey building 120 metres away
15 from the site of the incident. At a certain distance behind it, there is
16 a skyscraper."
17 And if we move to the next page in English, please.
18 We see a reference in the fourth paragraph to the conclusions of
19 the team, and again there's a reference to:
20 "... the direction corresponds to the location of the
21 three-storey building, immediately next to the Miljacka River
22 Grbavica PZT."
23 Having reviewed this document earlier today, could you explain
24 what the conclusions of your team were in respect of the origin of fire
25 in this incident?
1 A. Of course. As for this tram, since it had moved from the place
2 where it had been hit, the driver was panic-stricken, so he moved the
3 tram. However, in order to carry out a proper investigation, we tried to
4 have the vehicle moved back to approximately the same spot where it had
5 been hit. After our examination, we established that the possible site
6 from which the tram could have been hit was that green building that was
7 on the left bank of the Miljacka in the Street of Obala [indiscernible].
8 However, from the place where we had placed the tram, we came to the
9 conclusion that there was no optical visibility between the marksman and
10 the tram due to the treetops that acted as an obstacle. At the
11 suggestion of the driver, we established that the tram was supposed to
12 move a few metres ahead, and then in that case, the building would have
13 again been in this suspicious zone. In that case, there would have been
14 visibility and contact from that point of view. At any rate, that bank
15 of the Miljacka River
16 Q. Is there anything in this document to suggest that you concluded
17 that the tram had been fired upon by Bosnian Government forces?
18 A. Nothing. Nothing gave rise to that suspicion. All indicia
19 showed that this had come from the left bank, that is to say, the area
20 under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska.
21 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to move on three pages, please, to a
22 related document. This is dated 2nd of November, 1994, and it's a record
23 of an on-site reconstruction of the incident we've just been looking at
24 and another sniping incident.
25 If we look at the third paragraph, there is a reference to the
1 incident which took place at approximately 1730 hours on the 25th of
2 October, 1994, which concerns tram number 277.
3 Q. Now, this document was prepared by you and Mr. Zlatko Medjedovic;
4 is that correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Towards the end of this document, we see a reference to "the
7 green building." Could you explain what your analysis was with respect
8 to the green building and the incident concerning tram 277?
9 A. That's the building that I talked about a few moments ago. That
10 is to say, this report included the reconstruction of both trams, both
11 277 and 217. So we had already explained the previous one. We explained
12 that there was no visual contact, as it were, when the tram was put in
13 the original position where it was after -- or, rather, before the
14 reaction of the driver. Aleksandar Vuzina was his name. And then when
15 the tram was moved a few metres, then again it became possible to suspect
16 that that is where the fire had come from that wounded those persons.
17 As for the tram, we established it in a simpler way; on the basis
18 of the traces that were there and seeing the possible site from which it
19 could have come from. It was one of the skyscrapers in Lenjinova Street
20 Q. The second part of your answer there concerned the second tram;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes, yes, I mean the second tram. Lest there be any confusion,
23 we dealt with both trams on the same day. This reconstruction took place
24 upon instructions from the judge.
25 MR. GAYNOR: Can I see the next page in the B/C/S, please.
1 Q. Can you confirm that is your signature at the foot of the page?
2 A. Yes, it's my signature and that of the late Zlatko.
3 Q. And is there anything in this document prepared by you to suggest
4 that fire came from Bosnian Government positions?
5 A. Nothing, nothing that would lead to that conclusion that it came
6 from the Bosnian Government positions.
7 JUDGE KWON: Just for planning purposes, Mr. Gaynor, how much
8 longer would you need for your redirect -- I'm sorry, your
10 MR. GAYNOR: Just 25 minutes, I estimate, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE KWON: That being the case, we will have a short break for
12 20 minutes now, and then we'll resume at three past 1.00. And then, with
13 the kind indulgence of the interpreters and the other staff, we decided
14 to go until 2.00 this afternoon, if it is agreeable to the parties.
15 MR. GAYNOR: Very much so. Thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE KWON: Twenty minutes.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor, please continue.
20 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Before we go on, I'd like to seek the admission of the document
22 the witness was dealing with just before the break. It was 65 ter 10512.
23 JUDGE KWON: A?
24 MR. GAYNOR: A, correct, thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P1728, Your Honours.
2 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.
3 Now I'd like to request document 20897. This was the document
4 Your Honours wished us to put to the witness. I'd like to show the first
5 page, first of all.
6 Q. Mr. Sabljica, the document in front of you is an investigative
7 dossier of documents relating to an incident which took place on the 27th
8 of February, 1995, at 12.15.
9 And if we could go to the sixth page in B/C/S, which is the tenth
10 page in English, I believe. It might be the 11th page in English.
11 In any event, Mr. Sabljica, do you see your name under number 6
12 there on that document?
13 A. Yes, I can see it clearly.
14 Q. Now, this document -- according to this document:
15 "At 12.45 on the 27th of February, 1995, the centre was informed
16 by the duty operations officer that fire-arms had been used in
17 Zmaja od Bosne Street and several bullets were fired from enemy territory
18 on the tram en route from the city to Pofalici, and several persons were
20 Towards -- later on, on the page that you're looking at, there is
21 again a reference to:
22 "The tram was fired on by the aggressor's soldiers ..."
23 Do you recall participating in this investigation, Mr. Sabljica?
24 A. Yes, I remember.
25 MR. GAYNOR: If we could go to page 12 of the English, which is
1 page 9 of the B/C/S, please.
2 Q. At the top of the page in front of you -- the correct English
3 translation will be coming up.
4 The top of the page in front of you refers to sniper fire from
5 Lenjinova Street in Grbavica, and it says that the bullets were fired
6 from the fourth high-rise building in that street. Do you see that?
7 A. Yes, I can see that.
8 Q. Now, I'd like to go to a document which you, yourself, authored,
9 and that's on page 22 in English, page 18 in B/C/S, please.
10 If you see the document in front of you now, could you just
11 briefly --
12 A. Yes. It's the ballistics report which the late Medjedovic and
13 myself drew up.
14 Q. While the translation is coming, I'll read out the relevant part
15 of your document. At the end of the document which you signed on behalf
16 of Mr. Medjedovic, Mr. Sabljica, you said:
17 "The possible location from which the bullets had been fired at
18 the tram, garage number 257, could not be determined because it was
19 impossible to return the tram to the exact location where it was hit, as
20 stated by the driver, Sabina Secovic, because the tram broke down as a
21 result of the bullets fired at it."
22 That's at the end of the document, so if we could move one page
23 further on in English and B/C/S. And on the next page in B/C/S, please.
24 Now, first of all, could you confirm that's your signature on
25 that page?
1 A. Yes, I can confirm that it is mine.
2 Q. You were signing on behalf of Mr. Medjedovic; is that right?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Could you explain to the Court how the conclusion of the
5 investigation, in general, was that fire had come from the high-rise
6 building in Lenjinova Street, whereas the ballistic part of the
7 investigation concluded that it was not possible to determine exactly
8 where fire had come from because the fire could not -- because the tram
9 could not be returned to the exact location? Could you explain your
10 methodology in instances where you couldn't return the tram to the exact
11 location where the fire had taken place?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I just intervene so it would
13 be easier to follow this?
14 These documents are not on the list, so I cannot follow this.
15 MR. GAYNOR: This document is referred to in the amalgamated
16 statement of the witness. This document was.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need the document.
18 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, I don't follow. Is this not one of the
19 documents that was offered as an associated exhibit?
20 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, that's right, this is the exact dossier of
21 documents that Your Honours wished us to put to the witness.
22 JUDGE KWON: The 65 ter number of which is 20897?
23 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Mr. President.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the latest-to-last, the ERN
25 number I have is 361, so now we have to find our way around. 361 and
1 then onwards, 0331-6361, that's the ERN number.
2 JUDGE KWON: I hope Mr. Sladojevic can sort it out.
3 Yes, let's move on, Mr. Gaynor.
4 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. As I was saying, can you explain to the Court what the
6 methodology was in a sniper investigation where you couldn't return the
7 tram to the location where it had reportedly been struck by fire?
8 A. First, to clarify a difference between these two reports, I will
9 stand by what I signed here for Mr. Medjedovic. And why Mr. Kucanin, I
10 believe, and Miokovic signed the report, which says that it was hit from
11 the fourth high-rise, but you have to ask them if you ever call them to
12 testify. And the methods that we used were always one and the same, the
13 methods that we used when we registered damage caused by sniper shots on
14 trams and other vehicles that were moving. We could go back exactly to
15 the spot where the tram was hit -- rather, we couldn't do that, but we
16 made a reconstruction. We could determine the type and kind of damage.
17 We could also see the angles and the direction of movement of the bullets
18 from up, downwards, and from the left to the right. So we did not want
19 to say exactly what was the position from which it was fired, but from
20 the report one could see it was obvious that it had come from the south
21 side. And judging by the side of the tram that was hit, the Grbavica
22 settlement was on that side. And I wouldn't discuss the fourth high-rise
23 building because I never even mentioned it in my report.
24 Q. Could you explain the total number of sources of information in a
25 given investigation which might allow a conclusion to be drawn as to the
1 origin of fire?
2 A. Once [Realtime transcript read in error "unless"] the on-site
3 investigation team comes at the scene, at the order of an investigative
4 judge, then each member begins to do his work. The ballistics - that's
5 us in this case - with the help of forensic technicians, by using our
6 usual methods, will do our part of the work, and the operative
7 inspectors, such as Mr. Kucanin and Mr. Miokovic, would take the
8 statements of witnesses and use other sources of information from the
9 scene which are available in order to draw up their own report.
10 It happened that certain reports would not be consistent for
11 reasons unknown to me, because the gentleman from the Crime Operations
12 Sector would not wait for the final ballistics report and would draw
13 conclusions on the basis of their own findings and observations. In
14 general, everyone would have to be using one-and-the-same source of
15 information which you can find at the scene of the incident.
16 MR. GAYNOR: I just want to correct the English transcript, just
17 in case it doesn't get corrected later. The first word the witness said
18 was "Once the on-site investigation team comes," rather than "Unless."
19 Q. In any event, Mr. Sabljica, was your ballistic determination the
20 sole source of information which the whole investigation would have to
21 determine origin of fire?
22 A. I don't know about that, but it should have been the case.
23 Q. Very well. Let me just put it to you this way: In the file
24 which relates to this incident, and in other files, there were reports
25 given by all of the participants in the investigation; is that right?
1 A. The task of a criminal investigation inspector is to list all the
2 names present in the introductory part of his report, which means all the
3 names of team members. However, his report doesn't refer to ballistic
4 aspects and it doesn't contain my name, so this report is signed by him,
5 personally. And as a rule, in order for it to be complete, it should
6 contain a ballistic report as well. In this instance, as you can see,
7 and I can freely say that Mr. Kucanin and the other gentleman reached the
8 conclusions of their own. I don't know on what basis, because such
9 indications were never mentioned in our ballistic report. We even stated
10 the reasons for us not being able to determine that. I don't know why
11 they wrote it as they did and why the investigating judge accepted their
12 report as reliable.
13 MR. GAYNOR: The dossier contains all the relevant documents in
14 respect of the incident. I'd request that the Trial Chamber admit the
15 entire dossier and afford it the weight that it considers appropriate.
16 JUDGE KWON: Unless it is objected to, we will admit it.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1729, Your Honours.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. Sabljica, I'd now like to move away from sniping
19 to shelling, and I'd like to bring up a video, 65 ter 40125H.
20 Before we start the video:
21 Q. In your statement, Mr. Sabljica, from page 30 onwards, you
22 describe your participation in the shelling of the Markale market-place
23 on the 5th of February, 1994
24 JUDGE KWON: Participate in investigation of the shelling?
25 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I was a member of the
2 team who carried out the on-site investigation.
3 MR. GAYNOR:
4 Q. Very briefly, could you summarise your role in that
6 A. I was part of the ballistic team, led by the late Cavcic, and
7 Asim Kanlic, the investigating judge, led the entire team. Our task was
8 to determine the direction and the type of the projectile.
9 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now like to play the first segment, which is
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. GAYNOR:
13 Q. Could you describe, in general terms, what we saw in that
15 A. Well, one can see part of the Markale market-place, the stalls,
16 blood-stains, pieces of tissues, scattered fruits, pieces of clothing,
17 some crates or boxes, a lot of blood on the asphalt surface.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get the date when this video
19 was shot and who shot it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the Chamber to decide
22 who's going to answer.
23 JUDGE KWON: I'll leave it to Mr. Gaynor.
24 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. The date of this portion says "5.2.1994." On
25 the screen, itself, the source is AID in Sarajevo.
1 JUDGE KWON: But, Witness, are you aware of that fact; AID took
2 this film on the 5th of February?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about AID, but I know
4 that, on our team, Zlatan Sadikovic from the CSB was there, and he filmed
5 the scene as well during the investigation.
6 MR. GAYNOR: I should clarify my response earlier.
7 The immediate source of this video to the Office of the
8 Prosecutor was AID. On page 31 of the witness's amalgamated statement,
9 he states -- he's asked the question:
10 "While you were at the scene of the market, did one of the police
11 officers present video-record the market-place?"
12 The answer is:
13 "Yes, that was Mr. Zlatan Sadikovic that did this. He was a
14 member of the investigation team."
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 MR. GAYNOR: I'd request that that clip be admitted, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE KWON: When you tendered all the associated exhibits, was
18 included this one --
19 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.
20 JUDGE KWON: -- but in your list, it says just one clip, but I
21 take it there are three clips of this?
22 MR. GAYNOR: Well --
23 JUDGE KWON: So you are going to divide it into pieces?
24 MR. GAYNOR: It might be easiest if Your Honours admit the entire
25 video. It's quite lengthy, so I didn't have time to play that. I was
1 just going to play three portions of it. But it would be our preference
2 to --
3 JUDGE KWON: How long would it be?
4 MR. GAYNOR: I'm just getting that information right now.
5 Thirty-four minutes in length.
6 JUDGE KWON: I don't think I heard that.
7 MR. GAYNOR: It's 34 minutes.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thirty-four minutes. But how can we identify this
9 portion from that 34 minutes?
10 MR. GAYNOR: It has its own 65 ter number, so it could be
11 admitted -- we've previously admitted three extracts from this video with
12 Witness Higgs, Richard Higgs.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, and why do we do this? Unless it is objected
14 to, we'll admit this video in its entirety. That would be helpful. It's
15 better for us to have an entire video. And I would ask the Prosecution
16 to identify the proper minutes of each clips you are going to play today.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, we are not sure that this
18 was shot on the 5th of January [as interpreted]. One can't see that on
19 this still photo.
20 JUDGE KWON: That's a matter for you to cross-examine on.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 5th of February.
22 JUDGE KWON: Could that be done, Mr. Gaynor?
23 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.
24 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit this in its entirety.
25 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.
1 JUDGE KWON: Later on, you can identify --
2 MR. GAYNOR: Very well.
3 JUDGE KWON: -- the time clips of those videos that are going to
4 be played.
5 MR. GAYNOR: I can actually to it as we go along. The first clip
6 we just played was from 00.20 to 00.58, so that's 20 seconds to 58
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to play the second clip, please, which is
10 from 06.45 to 07.20.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. GAYNOR: If we could pause there, please. We're pausing at 7
13 minutes and 1 second.
14 Q. Mr. Sabljica, if you could describe what's on the screen in front
15 of you.
16 A. You can see an illustration of the method that we used to apply
17 when investigating the origin of fire of the shelling. You align the
18 poles and the central axis, as we used to call it. Because the asphalt
19 was rather wet and full of traces of blood and tissue residue, we were
20 not able to use chalk in order to connect the poles and the center and
21 for drawing up the central axis, so we used these three sticks, depicting
22 the angles and pointing to the direction from which the shell had come.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get the date of this video?
24 JUDGE KWON: If you have still questions -- it's a subject you
25 need to pursue later on. The witness confirmed that this was filmed the
1 5th of February, and on that basis we can go on.
2 This is a part of the same video, I take it, Mr. Gaynor.
3 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct.
4 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, if I may say
6 something briefly.
7 I already have a very short time for cross-examination. Through
8 the previous witness, we heard that the French confirmed that these
9 traces were chipped, that the place of inspect was tampered with by
10 chipping. Why don't we have the date here? I can't cover everything in
11 my cross-examination, and I think this is an appropriate moment for me to
12 ask about the missing date.
13 JUDGE KWON: I find your intervention this time sort of
14 obstructive. It's for you to further cross-examine the witness.
15 Let's continue, Mr. Gaynor.
16 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 If we could play that clip to the end, please.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. GAYNOR: Now I'd like to play the third clip, which is from 8
20 minutes and 50 seconds to 9 minutes and 23 seconds.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. GAYNOR:
23 Q. Could you describe what we were looking at in that portion of the
25 A. What we are seeing right now, body parts and the head?
1 Q. Yes. Now, just the portion of that video until the image arrived
2 on your screen.
3 A. When the FrenchBat team arrived from UNPROFOR, a French soldier
4 or an officer - I don't remember exactly - used an army knife in an
5 attempt to extract the part of the shell that was stuck at the place of
6 impact. And the crime scene officer, Sead Besic, was the one standing
7 next to him. And you could also see that the stabiliser was found in the
8 center of the crater, which means that the French soldier managed to mark
9 it with his knife.
10 Q. Did you carry out measurements as to how far the stabiliser had
11 penetrated into the ground?
12 A. As far as I can remember, it was nine centimetres with relation
13 to the surface on the asphalt.
14 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now like to request 65 ter 09620, which is a
15 photograph. If we could go to page 12 of that, please.
16 JUDGE KWON: Shall we switch to e-court from Sanction.
17 MR. GAYNOR: If we could go on another page, please. Sorry,
18 sorry, we can hold it there.
19 Q. What is that that is in front of you at this point, Mr. Sabljica?
20 A. We see the shell stabiliser to the center of the crater.
21 MR. GAYNOR: Could we go to the next page, please.
22 Q. Could you identify what that is?
23 A. The stabiliser of a 120-millimetre mortar shell.
24 MR. GAYNOR: And if we could have the next page, please.
25 Q. Could you describe what that is?
1 A. The same as in the previous photo, only viewed from a different
3 MR. GAYNOR: And if we could go to the first page of this
4 document, please.
5 Q. This refers -- this is a file of photo documentation of the
6 Markale incident of the 5th of February, 1994; is that correct?
7 A. Yes. And the photo documentation was compiled by crime-scene
8 officer Sead Besic.
9 MR. GAYNOR: Very well. I have no further questions,
10 Mr. President.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 Mr. Karadzic, we have about 20 minutes' time today, so why don't
13 you start your cross-examination.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sabljica.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. Please, let's pause between questions and answers so that we can
20 make it possible for the interpreters to do their job.
21 First of all, let me thank you for meeting with my associates. I
22 hope that would facilitate this cross-examination. And I would also like
23 to tell you, in advance, that I'm not disputing anything on a personal
24 basis. I'm only disputing facts. Therefore, rest assured that my
25 intention is not to display anything but respect for your person.
1 A. Thank you for that.
2 Q. Today, my learned friend Prosecutor Gaynor described you as a
3 forensic and ballistic analyst. Let me tell you why I noticed that,
4 specifically. And the reason is because, in these reports, you have been
5 characterised or described only as a ballistic expert. Is there any
7 A. Well, I'll correct this in order to make it simple. The exact
8 name of the title of the job that I had was an expert for mechanical
9 traces and ballistics. The ballistics section for analysing traces was
10 part of the forensic laboratory of the CSB Sarajevo and the MUP of
12 Q. Thank you. So does either of these two qualify you for providing
13 independent forensic findings for the use in courts?
14 A. Yes, because the minister of the interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina
15 at the time issued certificates to us that we, as active-duty police
16 officers, could prepare documents that could be used in court proceedings
17 at a later stage.
18 Q. Well, don't you find it to be more appropriately done by a proper
19 institution, not to be done by the minister?
20 A. Well, that is your conclusion, and that is what was done at the
22 Q. When you talked to representatives of the Defence team, you said
23 that you served as an infantry signalman; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, it is, if you're referring to the Yugoslav People's Army.
25 Q. During your regular military service, did you undergo any
1 training in shooting? And tell me from which weapons.
2 A. Only from infantry weapons, like M-72, submachine-gun, light
3 machine-gun, automatic rifle; that is to say, the weapons that the
4 signals platoon had within infantry.
5 Q. After that, you underwent a communications course?
6 A. Yes. That's how the JNA operate. The rest of my military
7 service I spent in training on communications equipment.
8 Q. How long does this firing training last?
9 A. The total initial training started -- lasted 30 days, and the
10 shooting training lasted for about 15 days. But I must say that later I
11 received some broader training, but again in the domain of infantry
13 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that you remained as part of the
14 reserve forces of the JNA?
15 A. Yes, until the break-up of the former Yugoslavia.
16 Q. Did you have a rank?
17 A. A corporal.
18 Q. Were you regularly summoned to take part in exercises?
19 A. Between 1985, when I finished my service, and the break-out --
20 the outbreak of war, two times.
21 Q. On page 2, you said that approximately for 13 months, you were a
22 member of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes. Initially, I was a member of the BH Territorial Defence,
24 and then from July 1992, when the Army of BH was formed, I became a
1 Q. In which unit did you serve?
2 A. That was Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Territorial Defence, named after our
3 local commune, and after that it was the 1st Motorised Brigade, and I
4 served as a private.
5 Q. Do you mean to say that your local commune, Bratstvo-Jedinstvo,
6 had its own territorial defence unit even in peace time?
7 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly whether it had, but
8 it probably did.
9 Q. Did this Territorial Defence unit have its own weapons?
10 A. Unfortunately, only a few weapons were there, rifles, hunting
11 rifles, and a few semi-automatic rifles.
12 Q. Where was the 1st Motorised Brigade deployed? Where was its zone
13 of responsibility? And please wait for the interpretation to finish. I
14 believe you can answer now.
15 A. The area of responsibility was the line on the Miljacka River
16 from the Vrbanja Bridge
17 the line from the Economics School
18 then we were transferred to Hrasno Brdo.
19 Q. Thank you. So from Vrbanja Bridge
20 on, between you and the Serbs, the Serb Army, that is, there was only the
21 Miljacka River
22 A. Yes. Between us and the units of the army of Republika Srpska,
23 there was only the Miljacka River
24 Q. Thank you. Then in July 1993, you went to the MUP; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Your first job at the MUP was the first job you had
2 after you got your degree in mechanical engineering within the stream for
3 production, as it were?
4 A. Yes, that was my first job after I basically graduated in October
6 Q. The plan was for you to get a job in Unioninvest, but the war
7 made that impossible; right?
8 A. Yes. Unfortunately, yes. That is what I told your colleagues
9 when I met up with them.
10 Q. Is it correct that the Unioninvest building is near Vrbanja
12 A. Yes. Before the war, that was the Unioninvest building, but now
13 it's the Office of the High Representative.
14 Q. Under whose control was that building during the war? In whose
15 territory was it?
16 A. That building was under the control of the Army of
17 Republika Srpska.
18 Q. Are you sure?
19 A. 100 per cent.
20 Q. What about those red buildings in the neighbourhood; were they
21 under the BH Army or the Army of Republika Srpska?
22 A. I think that the BH Army held positions above the Energopetrol
23 gasoline station, whereas this part of Kovacici was under the control of
24 the Army of Republika Srpska.
25 Q. You will see later on whether that was actually the case.
1 However, tell us, while you were at university, was there a subject that
2 trained people in ballistics professionally?
3 A. There wasn't a subject by that name, exactly, but there was a
4 stream that trained engineers that could later work in specific
6 Q. However, you did not study that particular stream; right?
7 A. No, no, no. I did a general course in mechanical engineering;
8 production, that is.
9 Q. At university, you did not take any courses in defence
10 technology; right?
11 A. That's right, I did not have that subject while I was at
13 Q. With your permission, I would like us to review what we heard
14 today during the cross-examination -- or, rather, the
15 examination-in-chief. Let us try to clarify a few matters.
16 You said, on page 69 -- or, rather, do we agree that the war
17 ended in Sarajevo
18 and then on the 21st of November, by the Dayton Peace Agreement?
19 A. We can agree on that.
20 Q. Do you recall when Grbavica was re-integrated, as you put it,
21 when we handed Grbavica over to you?
22 A. I think it was the end of February or beginning of March 1996.
23 Q. Thank you. You said here that in these skyscrapers, one of the
24 four, you found something that would correspond to sniper nests; right?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. Can you now assist us with this so that we would be as specific
2 as possible? On which floors were these apartments in which you
3 discovered that?
4 A. We toured all four buildings. Of course, we didn't see each and
5 every apartment. All the nests that we found were above the 10th floor.
6 Q. And the openings that you described, which direction did they
8 A. They faced the Street of Vojvoda Putnika or, rather, the
9 Smaja od Bosne, the entire segment on the right bank of the Miljacka.
10 Q. So that was the northern wall of these buildings?
11 A. If you're looking from the direction of Grbavica, then it's the
13 Q. Well, any direction.
14 A. Well, no.
15 Q. Where were these buildings? They face the river, don't they?
16 The broader side faced the south and the other one faced the north;
17 right? The north and south are something that we cannot bargain about;
19 A. All the openings faced the north when viewed from that apartment;
20 that is to say, from the direction of Grbavica towards the other bank of
21 the Miljacka River
22 Q. Thank you. So there were different openings; a small one, a
23 bigger one, and at a third level there was the biggest one of all, and
24 there were sandbags. Can you tell us, what does that look like, the
25 small opening and the medium-sized opening? How big are they, and how
1 high up were they?
2 A. Later on, I realised that that was called a tunnel. I found that
3 particular terminology, and I was actually asked about that during one of
4 my testimonies. The Defence asked me whether I had heard of that
5 expression. The smallest opening was on the wall that is the external
6 wall of the building, facing towards the north, towards the river, that
7 is, and it was 20 by 20, roughly.
8 Q. Sorry. How high up was it in relation to the floor?
9 A. I think between 80 and 100 centimetres, as far as I can remember;
10 from the floor of that particular apartment, that is.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. Well, in the room next-door, there was an opening in the wall
13 that was 40 by 40 or 50 by 50, roughly, again the external wall. And
14 then if you look at the third room, because they operate from in depth,
15 the opening is 80 by 80, and that's where the sandbags were and the
16 parapets, if I can put it that way. So if you're looking at things from
17 the point of view of the shooter, it looks like a tunnel.
18 Q. How far away were these sandbags from that opening?
19 A. They were right by the opening, itself. There wasn't a
20 particular distance. I cannot remember. I didn't even measure it or
21 anything like that. However, I think that they were right by the wall
22 and the opening.
23 Q. Thank you. So there's an 80 centimetres, and then the next one?
24 A. The first one is 20 by 20, and the other one is 40 by 40, and
25 then the third one is 80 by 80.
1 Q. From the floor, the first one is at 80 centimetres? I mean the
2 distance from the floor.
3 A. Well, it goes down, doesn't it? If it was 1.1 metres, then you
4 have to take away the 40 centimetres. And then over there you have the
5 other 40 centimetres. So then the shooter has his rifle at a parallel
6 level; right?
7 Q. Thank you. Was that dealt with -- I mean the crime scene, was it
8 dealt with properly? Were photographs taken, et cetera?
9 A. I'm sure, but I never saw this. I asked why not, but I never
10 received any information in this regard.
11 Q. Thank you. You also said that at Metalka, in an apartment, there
12 were empty casings found from automatic weapons ammunition.
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Was this photographed?
15 A. Yes, likewise, because, as I said, the entire team was there,
16 headed by the investigating judge. There was also a crime scene officer
17 and a member of the Security of Novo Sarajevo-Grbavica because that is
18 the area that it belonged to.
19 Q. Do you -- do we have these photographs?
20 A. I have not seen them, just like the previous ones that I haven't
22 Q. Were these empty casings dealt with properly? We could have
23 found some imprints there; right?
24 A. Of course they could have been found. I don't know about that
25 particular information, that is to say, whether there was a
1 finger-printing analysis that was carried out.
2 Q. Do you agree that your army and ours did not have weaponry that
3 could have been used as snipers with this kind of automatic ammunition?
4 That kind of thing does exist in the world. However, in the Balkans, in
5 the JNA, there was no such thing; right?
6 A. Ammunition of a 7.9-millimetre calibre is used by an M-76.
7 Q. However, you said that the casings came from ammunition for
8 automatic weapons, so what exists in that respect in our parts?
9 A. An M-74 machine-gun.
10 Q. What calibre is that?
11 A. 7.62.
12 Q. Thank you. No one has any casing of all of those, not even as a
14 A. Well, I don't. Perhaps we can ask around in the Ministry of
15 Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, are we done for
17 the day?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say something before the
20 adjournment, just a few words.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The importance of this witness,
23 both as an eye-witness and as a participant and as an investigator, is
24 enormous. The distinguished Mr. Gaynor tried to deal with a great many
25 facts with this witness, and my estimate of 20 hours is a conservative
1 one, a modest one, therefore, if we also take into account the incidents
2 that are not in my indictment. However, in order for the plot to
3 thicken, I think that I would need even 30 hours. So could the
4 Trial Chamber please take that into account.
5 One of the major problems would be time restrictions in these
6 proceedings that are otherwise evolving very nicely. So I always have to
7 indicate when I did not examine a witness properly, and that can cast a
8 shadow on the proceedings in total. But I am doing my best to deal with
9 things as best I can.
10 JUDGE KWON: We'll consider it.
11 We'll be sitting in the morning, tomorrow morning; is it correct?
12 Yes, 9.00.
13 But before that, in a very general term, Mr. Tieger, whether you
14 have any submission to make in relation to the witness who was supposed
15 to appear after this witness.
16 MR. TIEGER: I'm not aware that we've been apprised of additional
17 information since we were last informed, and at that point -- well, I'm
18 concerned about providing anything too fulsome and strained beyond the
19 bounds of this point.
20 May I suggest that we -- I don't have anything at this time, and
21 may I suggest that we provide the Court with an answer, either in open or
22 private session, at the first opportunity.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 We are now rising.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.
2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day of
3 October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.