Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7607

 1                           Monday, 11 October 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everybody.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Gicevic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Would you take the solemn declaration, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS:  ALEN GICEVIC

13                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Please be seated.

15             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Good morning, Your Honours.

17                           Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

18        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Gicevic.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   Would you please state your full name.

21        A.   Alen Gicevic.

22        Q.   Did you testify before the Tribunal in the trials of

23     Dragomir Milosevic and Momcilo Perisic?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And did you give written statements to the Office of the

Page 7608

 1     Prosecutor in November 1995 and April 2006?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   On the 16th of February, 2010, did you provide an amalgamated

 4     statement which contains relevant parts from your prior testimony and

 5     your statements?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would ask that Exhibit 65 ter 22094 be

 8     brought up onto the screen, and in particular the first and the tenth

 9     page.  Actually, that's enough.

10        Q.   Is that your amalgamated statement?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review that amalgamated statement

13     recently?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, can you confirm that your amalgamated statement

16     accurately reflects your evidence in the past?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Would you provide that same evidence to the Court if questioned

19     on the same matters here today?

20        A.   Yes, the answers would be the same.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, the following two corrections

22     need to be made to the statement.  It's just corrections of references.

23             On page 3, from line [sic] onwards, the photo 65 ter 10191 is

24     referred to, and that's not indicated in any footnote.  And in footnote

25     20, at page 6, the reference should read "65 ter 13143," because the

Page 7609

 1     witness was marking the same photo as in footnote 19.  And these

 2     corrections replace the corrigenda on the final page of the amalgamated

 3     statements.

 4             Your Honour, I would like to tender this testimony, 65 ter 22094,

 5     for admission under Rule 92 ter.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  That is admitted.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1690, Your Honours.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the Court's permission, I would now

10     read a brief summary of the witness's evidence as admitted.

11             During the years 1992 to 1995, Mr. Gicevic was a resident of

12     Sarajevo and was a victim of shelling and sniping.

13             On the 22nd of April, 1992, he was wounded by a shell near his

14     house in the center of Sarajevo, and he received injuries to his leg and

15     his stomach as a result.

16             The apartment in which Mr. Gicevic lived with his parents was

17     damaged twice due to shelling.  In addition, the apartment was repeatedly

18     struck by gun-fire.

19             On 3rd March 1995, the first day of Bajram holiday and during a

20     cease-fire, Mr. Gicevic was a passenger in a crowded tram heading towards

21     the center of Sarajevo that came under fire near the Holiday Inn.  The

22     witness was shot in the leg and hospitalised as a result of his injury.

23     Another passenger was also struck by a bullet.  The area where the tram

24     was shot at was known for sniper fire from Bosnian Serb positions so that

25     anti-sniper barriers had been set up to protect the civilian population.

Page 7610

 1     There were no military installations in the immediate area where the tram

 2     was hit, nor was there any military activity there that day.  The witness

 3     concluded that the shots were fired from an area held by Bosnian Serb

 4     forces.

 5             During the summer of 1995, Mr. Gicevic on several occasions

 6     observed unarmed civilians coming under fire on Marsala Tita Street.  The

 7     firing appeared to come from a white high-rise building situated in

 8     Serb-held Grbavica.

 9             Your Honours, this concludes the summary.

10             I have just a very few questions to clarify some locations that

11     the witness addressed in his amalgamated statement.

12        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, during your previous testimonies, you were asked to

13     mark quite a number of maps and photos.  Do you recall that?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would ask that Exhibit 65 ter 10189 be

16     brought up onto the screen, please.

17        Q.   And as it is coming up:  It is a photo with some markings in red

18     on it.  Mr. Gicevic, did you make these markings?

19        A.   Yes.  The last times when I gave evidence, I made these markings.

20        Q.   Can you tell us what the red markings indicate, starting with

21     this little arrow in the middle of this photo?

22        A.   The little arrow marks the place where the tram was hit during

23     this incident.

24        Q.   And the direction of the tram, was it going to the left or the

25     right?

Page 7611

 1        A.   On this photograph, it was on the right.  The tram was moving

 2     from the left to the right.

 3        Q.   And you also mentioned the front-line in your amalgamated

 4     statement.  Where would that be?

 5        A.   It was in the valley of the Miljacka River, and that is the

 6     dotted line that goes from left to right.

 7        Q.   And the number 2 -- the circle with the number 2, what is this?

 8        A.   I can barely see it here, I mean the numbers.  Number 2, as far

 9     as I can see, is this tall white building, the skyscraper.  Yes, that's

10     it, that's number 2, and I assume that it's the shot that hit the tram --

11     or, rather, the shots that hit the tram could have come from that

12     skyscraper.  And that was a well-known sniper nest.

13        Q.   And the circle -- the circle with the number 3, what does this

14     circle indicate?

15        A.   The circle with the number 3 denotes the Metalka building,

16     another building that was well known as being one from which snipers

17     operated.

18        Q.   In your written evidence - and it's at page 7 [Realtime

19     transcript read in error "5"], Your Honour - you describe that just past

20     the place of the incident where the tram was hit, the tram tracks turn to

21     the right side of the street.  Do you know since when this curve or bend

22     existed?

23        A.   Well, that curve has been there since the last reconstruction,

24     and that was a few years before the Olympic Games that were held in 1984.

25     Since then, there have been no reconstructions of this tram track.

Page 7612

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honours, I request the admission of

 2     this exhibit, 65 ter --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P1691.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would ask that now Exhibit 65 ter 10191 be

 6     brought up onto the screen, please, and it is another photo with some

 7     markings in blue.

 8        Q.   Did you make these markings in the previous testimony?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   What does this blue -- long blue line that you marked with

11     number 6, what does it indicate?

12        A.   It was the road that people took from one side of the city to the

13     other.  It was called the Salvation Road, the Salvation Route, the Route

14     of Hope, whatever people called it.  And from the Jewish cemetery in

15     Grbavica and the territory on the other side of the Miljacka River that

16     was held by the Bosnian Serbs, it was exposed to sniper fire.

17        Q.   And this dotted line on the right side with number 7 on it, if it

18     is number 7 - I think it's 7 - what is this?

19        A.   It may denote the row of containers that protected people from

20     fire.  Also, it can be the place where the tram stopped.  That would be

21     it.

22        Q.   And you have marked here several circles, circles with "10,"

23     "11," and "12."  What would that be?

24        A.   Those were well-known crossroads where civilians were being fired

25     at many times.

Page 7613

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request the admission of this

 2     exhibit as well.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P1692, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if you could be kind enough to

 6     show me the portion where the witness refers to the curve in his

 7     statement.  You said, In page 5.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Let me just see.  No, page 7.  Then I had

 9     misspoken.  It's on page 7, where he describes the -- where he describes

10     the place where the incident occurred and that there was a track -- where

11     he describes where the track was running.  It's at line 15 to 18, where

12     he describes the tracks running from the left side to the right side of

13     the street.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Page 7 on the hard copy?

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, page 7.  I misspoke.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

18        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, were you living in Sarajevo throughout the war?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You described the living conditions in Sarajevo during the period

21     from summer 1992 to the end of 1995 as difficult.

22             Your Honour, that's on page 2.

23             Can you explain what you mean by "difficult"?

24        A.   Well, I mean in every sense of the word.  It was a struggle for

25     bare survival.  There was a shortage of food, of electricity.  Then when

Page 7614

 1     there's no electricity, there's no water either.  There were shells,

 2     there was sniper fire, gun-fire.  Therefore, many glass panes had been

 3     broken, and during the winter it was very hard to heat apartments.  And

 4     above all, there was this uncertainty related to bare survival.  There

 5     were sudden shellings, gun-fire.  It was a struggle for bare survival

 6     over three years.

 7        Q.   And you described your physical injuries you sustained during the

 8     events in your written evidence, and we do not need to repeat that.

 9             Your experience during the years 1992 to 1995, did it also have

10     any psychological effect on you during the events and perhaps even

11     afterwards?

12        A.   There are physical and psychological effects.  I am struggling

13     somehow with the psychological effects and the physical ones also.

14        Q.   And what do you mean by "psychological effects"?

15        A.   Well, psychologically, if there are 1.000 days of such

16     uncertainty, any normal person would have to be affected.  We are trying

17     to find ways of forgetting all of that, but as a physician from Sarajevo

18     said once, the brain may have forgotten, but the body still recalls.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, this concludes the

20     examination-in-chief.

21             I would now request the three remaining associated exhibits

22     referred to in the amalgamated statement be admitted.  It would be 10188,

23     10439 and 13143.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

25             With respect to 10439, which is a police report of 24 pages, I

Page 7615

 1     note that the witness did say that he reviewed it, and this is on page 9

 2     in his statement, and he -- the facts set out in the file agree with his

 3     recollection of the incident.  But I don't think it's a good practice to

 4     admit an entire police report through a person who's not a police

 5     officer, because it contains many things besides his own statement -

 6     conclusions, forensic examination - and I don't think it's proper --

 7     I think it deprives us of confrontation rights to admit a police report

 8     through a witness who simply says it agrees with his recollection of the

 9     incident.  So we would be objecting, although we note that the police

10     officers involved will be coming to testify, and perhaps it could more

11     properly be admitted when they testify.

12             Thank you.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

15             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I have only added this document here because

17     it is mentioned in the amalgamated statement, and it was actually

18     discussed extensively with this witness in the earlier testimony.  But as

19     the police officer is, indeed, coming as the next witness, I would not

20     insist on this.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that being the case, then we'll -- can I take

22     it that you are withdrawing that exhibit in relation to this witness?

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Then there being no objection, those two

25     exhibits will be admitted.  Shall we give them the number?

Page 7616

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter 10188 will be

 2     Exhibit P1693, and 65 ter 13143 will be Exhibit P1694.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That's it.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.

 7             Good morning to all.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Gicevic.

11        A.   Good morning.

12        Q.   I'd like to ask you to tell us what kind of education you've had.

13        A.   I have a university degree in Economics.

14        Q.   Before that?

15        A.   Before that, I completed the high school called Druga Gimnazija

16     in Sarajevo.

17        Q.   And in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you worked as a nurse,

18     right, a medical technician, as we say?

19        A.   I worked as an ambulance driver and, when necessary, as medical

20     staff as well.  That was my VS in the JNA, because I did my military

21     service in Mostar, and that's where I was an ambulance driver as well.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Since we are speaking the same language, could I ask

23     you to pause between question and answer so it would be possible for the

24     interpreters to interpret what we are saying.

25             In the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you were, between August 1992

Page 7617

 1     to July 1994; is that right?

 2        A.   From April 1992.

 3        Q.   It says here "from August," so that's wrong.  All right.  So from

 4     April 1992 until July 1994.  In which unit?

 5        A.   First, I was in the Territorial Defence, and after that I was in

 6     the Command of the Medical Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 7     from August 1992, in the 101st Brigade.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 07078 [as interpreted].

 9     Could we have page 1 of that document, please.  07048.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  This has been admitted as Exhibit P1058.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Where was your brigade deployed?

13        A.   From August 1992, it was on Hrasno Brdo.

14        Q.   So you were the driver for that brigade?

15        A.   Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now zoom in on this map,

17     where it says the "101st Brigade."  A bit more.  A bit more, please.

18     Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could you please mark, with that pen, the area of responsibility

21     of the 101st Brigade, and the lines that it covers, and where you did

22     your driving.

23        A.   Well, let me tell you, it is very hard to see anything on this

24     map.  I can hardly mark anything.  I can just describe the line of

25     separation for you, the one that was covered by the brigade.  It's very

Page 7618

 1     hard for me to see anything here.  I wonder who could conceivably see

 2     anything on this map.

 3        Q.   Can you discern the airport, Dobrinja, Alipasino Polje, Grbavica,

 4     Hrasno Brdo, when you see these markings for different staffs?

 5        A.   I'm saying, once again, I'm very familiar with maps, but I cannot

 6     see anything here, Alipasino, nothing, not with this kind of zoom-in.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we zoom out, then, so it's

 8     easier for Mr. Gicevic to read this map.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, do you see here where it says the "101st Brigade"?

11     Can you discern "Hrasno Brdo," "Grbavica," et cetera?

12        A.   I see where it says the "101st Brigade," but the rest is very

13     unclear.

14        Q.   Do you see these little flags where the staffs are marked of the

15     battalions and companies of the 101st Brigade?  Is that Hrasno Brdo?

16        A.   I am telling you that I cannot say whether it's Hrasno Brdo or

17     not.  I assume it is, as long as that is there.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the

19     paper part of this map that might help him mark it.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I wonder, in the meantime, if Mr. Reid could find a

21     map of better quality than this one.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If necessary, we even have a

23     magnifying-glass.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not about magnifying-glasses,

25     it's about the clearness of this map.  I don't see who could find his way

Page 7619

 1     on this map.  You can just read the names of brigades here, nothing else.

 2     But I'll try to answer your question.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you please try to use a blue marker, for instance, to mark

 5     the area of responsibility of your brigade?  And that is the area where

 6     you drove that ambulance; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED:  Can he be given blue.

 9             THE WITNESS:  [Marks].  But I'm telling you again that I'm doing

10     this more by intuition rather than relying on the markings on this map.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you see the city of Sarajevo in this map?  The both of us

13     know it very well, and we know all the settlements that constitute the

14     city, and do you see the separation line between the HQs of the 101st

15     Brigade and the respective battalions and companies?  Can you please --

16     you have drawn the front-line going through Mojmilo.  Can you indicate,

17     where does it link up with the 115th?

18        A.   Somewhere in the area of the Grbavica Stadium.

19        Q.   And which was the neighbouring unit on the right flank?

20        A.   That was the Dobrinja Brigade until they merged sometime in 1993.

21        Q.   Can you then mark, in depth, the area of responsibility of 101st

22     Brigade?  You can see these flags going all the way to Dobrinjska Street.

23        A.   I really don't see how you can see the Dobrinjska Street here.

24     All I can see here is the city and the separation line, and I really

25     congratulate you on being able to find the streets here.

Page 7620

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, as much as you can, sir.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I think why do we not use a different map.

 4     The witness obviously cannot precisely do what Mr. Karadzic asked him to

 5     do.  I mean, we have always used so far this map [indicates], and I don't

 6     know whether this is an option.  I don't know whether this is -- what is

 7     supposed to be shown on there.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that we can do that, but

 9     this map shows very dense distribution of HQs of the 101st Brigade in the

10     area of Hrasno Brdo all the way to Grbavica.

11             JUDGE KWON:  This map has been already admitted, and we can

12     rely -- you can rely on this map later on, so why don't we use another

13     map which the witness can easily recognise, having heard from him that --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it necessary for him to make any

15     markings on this map?

16             JUDGE KWON:  He says he's not able to mark anything on this map.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can we please then use the map that has been kindly offered by

19     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, that's 65 ter 09390C.

21             JUDGE KWON:  And what page?

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, it's actually the whole map at the

23     moment.  I'm not sure which page.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, it may be 10 or 14.  It's a little

Page 7621

 1     bit unclear.  Sheet 10 or 14.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, 10.  14 - this is Dobrinja, where

 3     the Dobrinja Brigade was.

 4             No, this is not 10.  This is 8.  We need 10.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, is it now easier for you to mark the area of

 7     responsibility of the forward and -- of the area of responsibility of the

 8     101st Brigade?

 9        A.   Please give me time to find my bearings.  It is much easier now.

10             Well, there is a separation line here [indicates], more or less.

11     Do I need to mark it on this map?

12        Q.   Yes, we can see the separation line, but can you please mark the

13     linking point with the 115th, and what was the in-depth area of

14     responsibility of the 101st?

15        A.   I don't know you can ask me to make such markings.  I'm not a

16     military expert.

17        Q.   But you worked as a driver.

18        A.   Yes, I drove from the annex to the hospital.  I didn't do my

19     driving along the whole line.

20        Q.   Was Alipasino Polje within the area of responsibility of the

21     101st Brigade, the Alipasino Polje neighbourhood?

22        A.   That is an urban city zone.  I don't know how it can be within

23     the responsibility of 101st Brigade's.  In other words, troops were

24     deployed along the lines.  They were not in the town, unless they went

25     back into town.

Page 7622

 1        Q.   Are you trying to say that the area of responsibility is only

 2     marked by a line, that there is no in-depth to it?

 3        A.   I told you I am no military expert.  The area of responsibility

 4     was above the stadium, all the way to Dobrinja.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this map on the

 6     ELMO.  That's 1D255.

 7             [In English] May I ask you to enlarge this portion, this portion,

 8     this portion.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you understand, Mr. Gicevic, now what I'm referring to?  You

11     see the front end and you see the area of responsibility.  Did you do

12     your driving along this area marked by these hooks?

13        A.   I already told you I drove from Vrbovska Street to the barracks

14     and then to the State and City Hospital in Kosevo.  I didn't drive along

15     the line.  I only went in-depth to the barracks and from the barracks to

16     the hospitals.

17        Q.   That was only one route?

18        A.   Yes, of course.  Every battalion and every company had their own

19     medical team, and they didn't overlap in their responsibilities.  That is

20     what happens in every army.

21        Q.   Are you trying to tell me that you were not at the level of the

22     brigade, but rather at the level of company?

23        A.   I was at the level of the brigade.  But whenever necessary, I

24     went to the battalion HQ on Vrbovska Street.

25        Q.   Can you show Vrbovska Street on the ELMO, where the HQ of the

Page 7623

 1     battalion was?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.  It runs parallel with Zagorska

 3     Street.  It's about 200 metres below the line of separation.  But just

 4     give me a moment to find my bearings.  Nevertheless, I think it is

 5     impossible to do that.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, having heard the answer from the

 7     witness, I would advise you to move on to another topic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  He has come to testify about the F-16 incidents and

10     other shelling incidents.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   But I am interested, Mr. Gicevic, how come that you were wounded

13     on Nemanjina Street while you were walking, and then through the zone of

14     the 101st and 115th Brigades you managed to get through unscathed?

15        A.   I don't know -- you're really insulting my dignity and the

16     evidence that I gave you.  I don't know what you expect me to answer to

17     that.

18        Q.   Please do not feel insulted.  That's the last thing on my mind.

19     Do you believe that the fact that you drove the ambulance kept you safe

20     from being injured for two years during the war, without happening to

21     you -- anything happening to you whatsoever, but then as a pedestrian you

22     were wounded on Nemanjina Street?

23        A.   I think that you would be happy if I had been wounded five times

24     as a civilian and two times as a soldier.

25        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, I just wanted to say that you were safe in the

Page 7624

 1     ambulance which you drove within the war zone for two years.

 2        A.   I don't know how it occurred to you at all that I was safe in an

 3     ambulance.  How can anyone be safe in an ambulance?

 4        Q.   Was your ambulance ever hit?  Were you wounded in your vehicle?

 5        A.   No, I wasn't, luckily.

 6        Q.   You say "luckily," but I am saying that this was a decision by

 7     the Serbian Army not to shoot at ambulances, and I don't know --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please pause between

 9     questions and answers, and slow down.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, Mr. Gicevic.  Because both of you are

11     overlapping in questions and answers while they were interpreted,

12     interpreters couldn't follow your answers.  If you could repeat your last

13     answer, Mr. Gicevic.

14             THE WITNESS:  In spite of all the misfortune, I was lucky not to

15     be hit in the ambulance.  However, others were not as lucky as I was.  A

16     large number of ambulances and people who worked in the Medical Corps,

17     such as doctors and technicians, lost their lives.  And you know very

18     well that there were quite a few of such incidents.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, there is not such an incident in any of the counts

21     in my indictment.  Let's move on.

22             You said that you knew - that's in line 19 - that hundreds of

23     people were wounded or killed by shelling and sniping.  Which kind of

24     massive incidents are you aware of taking place in Sarajevo?

25        A.   I know the incident of the queue for bread.  I know that when

Page 7625

 1     children gathered in a playground, happy that they can play some

 2     football, I know that people were waiting in queues for water, people

 3     were killed and injured at junctions, and that proves why about 10.000

 4     people were killed about three -- during the period of three years.

 5        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, please do not feel that I am trying to attack you.

 6     We are just trying to clarify your statement so that we do not have

 7     general assertions.

 8             Which specific incident are you aware of, as you said on page 2,

 9     line 19?

10        A.   Let me just mention a few of them.  The bread queue on the

11     Vase Miskin Street, the two shelling incidents at Markale, the incident

12     that happened near to the brewery in the old town, where people waiting

13     for water were hit, the incident when children and their teacher, Fatima

14     Bunic, were killed on the school playground, where seven or nine or

15     eleven children were killed while playing football during the calm

16     period.  So this is a whole mass of people.

17        Q.   Well, I am interested in what you say, this mass and huge number

18     of cases.  Do they really exist or is that just a figure of speech of

19     yours?

20        A.   From the Vrbanja Bridge towards the new part of the town, you

21     know exactly how many such cases happened at the intersections.  Maybe

22     not as many people were killed.  And there was an incident in

23     Alipasino Polje, and I know that you are aware of these incidents.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Now you may ask.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7626

 1        Q.   On page 2, line 25 of your statement, you say that all the

 2     intersections along the main street in Sarajevo were notoriously known as

 3     sniping targets.  These intersections were in Novo Sarajevo, Centar, and

 4     Stari Grad municipalities.  Can you name these intersections that you

 5     would qualify as Sniper Alley?  But please be precise in doing so, where

 6     exactly these sniping incidents took place.

 7        A.   Of course, I can do that.  The intersection under the

 8     Hrasno Brdo, Cengic Vila.  Then the next one is close to the power

 9     electricity company.  Then the Pofalici intersection.  Then the

10     intersection between the National Museum and Museum of Revolution.  Then

11     the one between the Faculty of Philosophy and the National Museum.  Then

12     the one between the Executive Council and Philosophy Faculty.  Then on

13     the old and new Skenderija Bridge.  Near the post office.  Near the

14     Skenderi [as interpreted] Mosque.  And in all other minor intersections

15     close to the separation line.

16        Q.   Now this has prompted me to ask you to mark on the map who was

17     killed on the Skenderija Most Bridge.

18        A.   Are you really expecting me that I have a book from which I can

19     read you the names of the casualties?  I, myself, witnessed the shootings

20     taking place at these locations, and don't force me to doubt my own

21     memory.

22        Q.   Well, I have to do that anyway, Ms. Gicevic.  Can you tell us

23     which locations were targeted in Stari Grad by snipers?

24        A.   I didn't move around Stari Grad as much as that.  All I am

25     telling you is what I know.

Page 7627

 1        Q.   Do you remember that your memory was somewhat better than it is

 2     now?

 3        A.   I don't know what you are alluding to.

 4        Q.   Generally speaking, did you have a better memory in recollecting

 5     these events than you do now?

 6        A.   Well, probably.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Are you trying to say that you are talking about the

 8     incidents that you eye-witnessed?

 9        A.   I wasn't present during the incidents.  I did see some of them,

10     but the majority of them I didn't see, myself.  I don't know how you

11     expect me to do that.

12        Q.   In lines 17 and 18, you say that you were present, and then you

13     go on to say that wherever you were in-situ, you see many incidents.  Can

14     you tell us specifically which sniper incidents you witnessed?

15        A.   Of course I can.  I was working in the building across

16     Alipasina Mosque, and there was a container that was protecting

17     Alipasina Street from south, from the direction of the Jewish cemetery.

18     However, in 1995, when I was working there, I noticed that vehicles came

19     under fire from the white high-rise building in Grbavica.  I even

20     witnessed an incident when UNPROFOR troops turned their transporter and

21     their guns towards Grbavica.  So all in all, there were quite a few

22     incidents of that nature.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now have P9169

24     [as interpreted] that has been admitted into evidence earlier.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I think you have that number wrong.

Page 7628

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  P9161.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  1691?

 3             THE ACCUSED:  ... 91, recently admitted.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, can you see the Unis building, Unioninvest, that

 6     building?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you mark it with a blue marker?

 9             So what would be the next number now?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait a minute.

11             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go back to the east a bit.

14             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Under whose control was the Unis building, Mr. Gicevic?

17        A.   The Vrbanja Bridge was the bridge of separation, and you

18     controlled that building, as far as I know.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Could you look a bit towards the west.  Do you see

20     two red buildings?  First, you see a red facade, and behind it, another

21     red building to the west of number 5.

22        A.   You mean on the right, down here [indicates]?

23        Q.   To the left from the number 5, horizontally.

24        A.   There are many buildings with red roofs.

25        Q.   Red facade.

Page 7629

 1        A.   Red facade.  To tell you the truth, I cannot see.  I just see

 2     Metalka.  That's red.

 3        Q.   Behind Metalka, do you see a red facade to one side?

 4             [In English] May I ask you to show to Mr. Gicevic another photo

 5     on the same bench, but just to help him orient.

 6             [Interpretation] Do you see those two red buildings?  You can see

 7     them less in this photograph, but on the other one, you can see them

 8     better.

 9        A.   I see one red building.

10        Q.   And behind it, there's another one.

11        A.   I really cannot see another red building.

12        Q.   Can you put a circle around the one that you do see.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Yes.  The one in front of it is also red, so could you please

15     place number 6 there.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Who controlled that building, Mr. Gicevic?

18        A.   As far as I know, you did.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now mark the Executive Council building?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Please do.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   The Assembly building?

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   The building of the Faculty of Philosophy?

Page 7630

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   The museum building?  The entire complex.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   That's right.  Who controlled those buildings, Mr. Gicevic?

 5        A.   These buildings, 7, 8, 9 and 10, were under the control of the

 6     Army of BH.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in your early statement from 1995, you said that

 8     the tram had been hit as soon as you passed by the Assembly building.

 9     Can you now mark that particular spot where the tram had been hit, as you

10     had stated then.  Could you mark it with a little asterisk.

11        A.   I don't understand what it is that I'm supposed to mark.

12        Q.   According to your first statement, where was the tram hit?

13        A.   Before the Assembly, that's what I stated.

14        Q.   Can you please put the date there?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to ask the witness to mark further on

16     this map?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted the witness to mark on

18     this photograph the spot where the tram had been hit, according to his

19     first statement.

20             THE WITNESS:  According to my first statement, the tram was hit

21     before the Assembly, and I can mark it for you now.  [Marks].  I marked

22     it with a little cross.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not what your first

24     statement says.

25             Can this be admitted, once the date is put on this document?

Page 7631

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gicevic, can you kindly put the date of today -

 2     which is the 11th of October, 2010 - and your signature.

 3             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will do.

 5             In the future, if you're going to mark -- you're going to put the

 6     date, put it in the right bottom so that we can see easily.

 7             We can -- yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I'm just wondering about one thing.

 9             The accused put to the witness that in the previous statement he

10     would have said something different, but he didn't really put this

11     statement to the witness so that he can check, and he didn't really give

12     the line or an indication where it is, but I think that would have been

13     correct.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will follow this

15     well-intentioned suggestion.

16             Can this be admitted?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D725, Your Honours.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, now I would like to remind you -- actually, can we

21     call up 65 ter 22089.  I believe that it exists in both versions.  22089,

22     that's the 65 ter number.

23             This is your statement dated the 15th of November, 1995; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 2.

Page 7632

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   In the third paragraph, it says:

 3             "The tram passed the building of the Executive Council and was

 4     arriving at the level of an anti-sniping barricade formed by two rows of

 5     containers."

 6             Is that what you stated?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have D725.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   The tram was moving from Cengic Vila towards Bascarsija; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   From the west to the east; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   In accordance with this statement of yours, that namely the tram

15     passed the Executive Council building and was getting close to -- can you

16     mark now where that anti-sniper barricade was?  You said a few moments

17     ago that it was at Marin Dvor; right?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Wait.  Can you change the colour into black.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The anti-sniper barricades were

20     from the corner at Marsal Tito Barracks all the way up to the old tobacco

21     factory, so it wasn't one particular spot.  The entire tram stop had been

22     covered with anti-sniper barricades.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Can you mark the tram stop at Marin Dvor, towards Bascarsija?

25        A.   Yes, at Marin Dvor [marks].

Page 7633

 1        Q.   Can you mark it with number 11, please.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Now, you say in this statement that before the tram was hit, the

 4     tram had passed the Executive Council building and that it was hit then;

 5     right?

 6        A.   That's not what I said.  I just said that it stopped at the tram

 7     stop at Marin Dvor.  And of course it has to pass by the

 8     Executive Council building.  It cannot get off the tram tracks, can it?

 9        Q.   What is written here is different, but let us move on.  Let us

10     see what is written here.

11             Can you mark the spot where the tram stopped, to the best of your

12     belief, after it had been hit?

13        A.   That is what I marked with the number 11; that is to say, behind

14     the old tobacco factory, at the stop there.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You said that if we look at the direction in which

16     the tram was moving, you were facing Vraca and the Jewish cemetery, and

17     you could see that from where you were standing.

18        A.   I was standing on the right-hand side, and I could see the south.

19        Q.   It says here:

20             "I was standing on the left-hand side and was facing Vraca and

21     the Jewish cemetery."

22        A.   I was standing on the right.

23        Q.   How tall are you, Mr. Gicevic?

24        A.   173.

25        Q.   How high are the windows on the tram?

Page 7634

 1        A.   I don't know.  First of all, you consider me to be a military

 2     expert, and now what?  I don't know, two, two and a half metres,

 3     whatever.  You are really putting some very illogical questions.

 4        Q.   If you're standing there, you can only see the road, asphalt,

 5     when you're standing on the tram.  If you were sitting on the tram, then

 6     that would have been plausible, but you were standing there with your

 7     height of 173 centimetres, and you say that you could see Vraca and the

 8     Jewish cemetery?

 9        A.   To put it mildly, you are saying something that has nothing to do

10     with reality.  What kind of a tram would that be that wouldn't have any

11     kind of view even when you're standing?  That's the way it is in

12     Sarajevo, in The Hague, anywhere in the world.

13        Q.   Do you still stand by that?  As you were standing on the right by

14     the wall, you could see the Jewish cemetery and Grbavica?

15        A.   With 100 per cent certainty.

16        Q.   Thank you.  From where could have that bullet come; from the

17     Jewish cemetery?

18        A.   You keep saying "Jewish cemetery."  When I say "Grbavica,"

19     "Jewish cemetery," I meant the general direction.  I don't mean a

20     particular grave in the Jewish cemetery.  I was talking about the general

21     direction.  I'm really not that familiar with the Jewish cemetery.

22        Q.   Do you know that on the eastern wall of the Jewish cemetery,

23     there were the Muslims, and on the western side, there were the Serbs?

24        A.   No.  It was the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that had Muslims,

25     Serbs and Croats, all of them, and on the right-hand side were Serbs

Page 7635

 1     only.  So that side was held by the Army of Republika Srpska.  That is to

 2     say that in the cemetery there were no troops of the Army of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4        Q.   Well, the Army of Republika Srpska wasn't in the cemetery,

 5     either, but on its western wall; right?

 6        A.   That's not right.  You were in there.

 7        Q.   In this statement -- or, actually, can we admit this, this

 8     picture with the number 11 that we need?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Could you put your signature and date again, kindly,

10     at the bottom of this picture.

11             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             We'll admit it as D726.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Further on, you say, Mr. Gicevic, that you heard glass breaking;

16     right?

17        A.   I do not remember having said that at all.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Once again, can we have 65 ter

19     22089.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   In the meantime, just briefly, let us deal with this issue of the

22     Chetniks.

23             Do you believe that those Serbs who wanted the Republika Srpska

24     are Chetniks?

25        A.   Not at all.  By "Chetniks," I mean the worst part of the Serb

Page 7636

 1     people.  Let me be very specific and clear and precise on this.  I'm not

 2     saying that Serbs and Chetniks are one-and-the-same thing.  Serbs are an

 3     honourable and honest people, and Chetniks are scum.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You heard a gun-shot, screams, and glass that was breaking.  It

 7     is towards the middle.

 8             Can we have it in English as well.  That's where it starts in

 9     English:

10             "Suddenly I felt pain in my leg."

11             Here it says that you felt pain in your leg, heard the sound of

12     broken glass, and a shot as well as screams.  Did the bullet enter

13     through the window or through metal sheets?

14        A.   I'm not sure.  That is where my memory is unclear after all this

15     time.

16        Q.   The next sentence:

17             "I'm not sure, but I think I heard two or three shots.  According

18     to the sounds I heard, I'm sure that the shots came from the direction of

19     the Jewish cemetery."

20             So you heard the shots.  You did not refer to the tram being hit.

21     You felt pain in your leg, et cetera.

22        A.   The situation was rather chaotic.  It wasn't filmed.  It's not on

23     camera so that I can analyse it now.  I said I heard two or three shots.

24     Were they shots, were they sounds, was it a bullet hitting a window, was

25     it a gun-shot hitting metal?  I cannot say.  At any rate, I was standing

Page 7637

 1     on the tram, and it's only natural to expect that the bullet had come

 2     from the right-hand side.  It is only logical that it cannot come from

 3     the left-hand side.

 4        Q.   Why can it not come from the left-hand side?

 5        A.   Because it follows a straight line.

 6        Q.   And if the Muslims fired?

 7        A.   I don't know where you get that idea, that the Muslims could have

 8     fired, when UNPROFOR soldiers were staying there.  If you think that a

 9     Muslim bullet can go through an UNPROFOR APC and by UNPROFOR soldiers,

10     then you are very wrong.

11        Q.   Let's move on, Mr. Gicevic.

12             How could you be sure that the gun-shot had come from the

13     direction of the Jewish cemetery?  That's that sentence there.

14        A.   I'm telling you again, I mentioned the Jewish cemetery and

15     Grbavica when I was describing the general direction.  I never said that

16     it came exactly from that location.  I was talking about the direction

17     and orientation.  I said that I thought that the bullet had come from the

18     direction of Grbavica and the Jewish cemetery.

19        Q.   Please do not feel harassed or attacked.  I just want to be

20     precise.  You say here that according to the sounds that you heard, you

21     said that you were sure that the shot had come from the Jewish cemetery.

22     I'm not attacking you.  If you were sure, as you say you were, based on

23     what were you sure?  Can we now modify this and say that you were not

24     quite sure that it had come from the Jewish cemetery?

25        A.   The only correction that could be made is that it came from the

Page 7638

 1     direction of Grbavica and the Jewish cemetery, as I said.

 2        Q.   A bullet cannot come from two directions.

 3        A.   Well, I don't know what you're talking about.  When you talk

 4     about direction, which is east-west, we're not talking about grid

 5     references.  So if you insist that it came from the south, we can discuss

 6     that.

 7        Q.   Excellent.  But if we leave it as it is, I'm not sure that you

 8     were so sure that the shot came from the Jewish cemetery.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the answer.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

11             The interpreters were not able to hear your last answer,

12     Mr. Gicevic.  Could you repeat it, kindly.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am positive that the bullet came

14     from the south, where the Jewish cemetery and Grbavica are located, and

15     therefore I concluded that it had come from that direction.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Now, can I please ask you to read the sentence that starts:

18     "According to the sounds ..." somewhere in the middle of the sheet.

19        A.   "According to the sounds that I heard, I am sure that fire came

20     from the direction of the Jewish cemetery."

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, talking about the south, between the tram,

22     wherever it is hit, and the Jewish cemetery or, rather, Grbavica, were

23     there any other positions?

24        A.   I don't know which particular positions you're referring to.

25        Q.   Military positions.  Were there any troops deployed in the area

Page 7639

 1     between the tram and Grbavica, someone else?

 2        A.   No, there weren't.

 3        Q.   There was no line held by the Muslims on the Miljacka River?

 4        A.   You know very well that not a fly could survive from sniper fire,

 5     let alone troops.

 6        Q.   The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as you said, did not hold the

 7     building of the Executive Council, the Assembly, the museum, the faculty,

 8     et cetera.  It was -- these were not under their control; is that right?

 9        A.   As far as I knew, those were merely observation posts manned by a

10     few soldiers.

11        Q.   So why didn't the Serbs capture these positions and connect it

12     with the Marsal Tito Barracks?

13        A.   Because they tried this several times and were slapped on the

14     knuckles.

15        Q.   By whom?

16        A.   These are just the insinuations that you are making.

17        Q.   Later on, you worked on Marsal Tito number 8?

18        A.   Number 5, although I am not sure about the number.  It's the

19     building across the mosque and where the Forestry Administration was.

20        Q.   Which building is adjacent to this building westwards?

21        A.   Westwards, it is surrounded by the Sutjeska Radnik Cinemas, the

22     Institute for Public Health, Alipasina mosque.  That's all.

23        Q.   To the west, behind that building, was there an old military

24     hospital that was converted into a military depot?

25        A.   That was a state hospital, and I am not familiar with that notion

Page 7640

 1     of a military depot.  I know that for sure because both my father and my

 2     sister used to work there.

 3        Q.   Very well.  So you don't know that next to the Forestry building

 4     there was a large yard, and the big building of the old military hospital

 5     that had been converted into a military depot a long time ago, and from

 6     the northern part is the Kranjcevica Street; is that correct?

 7        A.   Well, you know very well that the old military hospital was so

 8     much destroyed that it collapsed by itself, and I really cannot believe

 9     what you are insinuating, that some weapons and other things were kept

10     there.  It would have been put in a much more secure building, not the

11     building that collapsed by itself.

12        Q.   To the west of the Forestry building, was there a complex of the

13     old military hospital?  You don't have to say that it was a military

14     depot.

15        A.   Yes, I confirm that behind the Forestry building there was an old

16     military hospital.

17        Q.   Is this military hospital across the intersection between Vrazovo

18     and Tito Vraz?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You say here that you were hit in the right thigh, and that you

21     were bleeding, and that you -- actually, your girlfriend helped you to

22     tie it up with a scarf; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Where were you exactly hit?

25        A.   Ten or five or six centimetres above the knee.

Page 7641

 1        Q.   How far from the ground is that?

 2        A.   Perhaps 50 or 60 centimetres.

 3        Q.   It would be very important to us if we knew the exact figure.

 4        A.   Well, if you wish, I can stand up and have you measure it, if you

 5     think that is necessary.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this 1995 statement

 7     admitted into evidence, please.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   How did you leave the incident place?

10        A.   When the tram stopped near the old tobacco factory, my girlfriend

11     and I went to Zagreb Hotel, and then from there we went to the

12     State Hospital which is some 200 metres away.

13        Q.   In some statements, Mr. Gicevic, you said that you walked to the

14     hospital; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, I said that -- this memory is a little bit blurred, and I

16     cannot be quite sure whether I walked or whether I took a taxi.  It's not

17     a long distance from the place where I was to the hospital.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can we have this admitted into evidence, and then we can move on.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  His statement of 15th November 1995 will be

21     admitted as Exhibit D727.

22             And I note the time.  How much longer do you have with this

23     witness, Mr. Karadzic?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would need considerably more than

25     envisaged by the Trial Chamber, because there is quite a few

Page 7642

 1     contradictions, so it's a complete [indiscernible].

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take the break now, and you will have half an

 3     hour after the break, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] By your leave, this is far from

 5     sufficient for this single incident.  Mr. Gicevic mentioned so many

 6     things that if they are entered into the record, I cannot consider to

 7     have a defence case.  These things need to be refuted, or we have to

 8     discard his statement in its entirety, or I should be allowed to

 9     cross-examine him.

10             JUDGE KWON:  You should have prioritized your questions.  You

11     were given notice that you would have one hour and a half with this

12     witness, and you spent a lot of time asking unhelpful questions as to the

13     location of 101st Brigade or those things.  Plan your remaining of your

14     cross-examination so that you can finish in half an hour after the break,

15     Mr. Karadzic.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we please have in e-court 65 ter 21215.  Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, can I ask you to tell us if you recognise this

23     photograph.

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Can you please draw a line, by using an electronic pen, along the

Page 7643

 1     then Marsala Tita Street along which the tram service runs.

 2        A.   I can show you where the tram runs, but this is the end of

 3     Marsala Tita Street.

 4        Q.   But can you show us the section between Marin Dvor --

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   -- and the intersection?  Thank you.  Can you put number 1

 7     somewhere on the line?

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please now draw a line that runs along the

10     Vranje Rackog Street.

11        A.   That's the street that you're looking for, if I'm not mistaken

12     [marks].

13        Q.   Do you think that this is the street and the intersection that

14     firing took place?

15        A.   Among others, yes.

16        Q.   Can you please put number 2.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Can you put the number 3 where these two lines join together.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Can you now see the so-called Metalka building?

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   I think that the Metalka building is more to the west.

23        A.   I am not sure.  There was an advertisement on one of those

24     buildings.  It's either of the two.  Both of them are called "Metalka,"

25     so I'm not sure whether it's the one on the right or the left.

Page 7644

 1        Q.   Can you encircle Unioninvest building and the two red buildings

 2     that you had marked previously.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   And the red one with number 6.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Can we agree that the Franje Rackog Street is situated between

 7     the museum and the faculty, the parallel street?

 8        A.   Can you please repeat the question?  I didn't understand.

 9        Q.   Do we agree that the Franje Rackog Street is situated between the

10     museum and the faculty?  Can you mark the museum with number 7 and the

11     faculty with number 8.

12        A.   Museum, number 7 [marks].

13        Q.   And the Faculty of Philosophy, number 8, please.

14        A.   Excuse me, I made a mistake.  The Franje Rackog Street is to the

15     left.

16        Q.   Can you mark it now correctly?

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   So that would be number 9, Franje Rackog Street?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you agree, then, that the Metalka is where these two streets

21     join or, rather, in the direction of Franje Rackog Street?

22        A.   I'm telling you again, I don't remember where the advertisement

23     was placed on top of the building.

24        Q.   Do you agree that this street used to be called Djure Danicica,

25     and it's now called Kosta Hermana Street?

Page 7645

 1        A.   I don't know how it was called before or how is it called now,

 2     but that's the one that I marked with number 2.

 3        Q.   Can you please put a date in the corner of this photo - within

 4     the photo, not outside of the frame - and sign it.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Although the participants know very well, but could you please

 7     mark Holiday Inn with number 10 and the Executive Council building with

 8     number 11.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And the Assembly number 12.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Unis high-rise buildings, number 13.

13        A.   [Marks]

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can we please admit this map -- correction, this photograph.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D728, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have D727 in e-court.

19     That's the statement.  D727, that's your 1995 statement.

20             Can we also have the Serbian version, please.  Thank you.

21             Can we now have page 2, please.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Please look where it says:  "The confrontation line was 200

24     metres.

25             "All the tram was full.  All the seats were occupied."

Page 7646

 1             And then we have the next sentence, which starts with:  "I have

 2     put a red cross ..."

 3        A.   "I have put a red cross on a map that I have signed in order to

 4     pin-point the spot where the event happened.  The arrow shows the

 5     direction of the tram."

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 22091, please.

 7     65 ter 22091.

 8             Can we please enlarge the section around Marin Dvor and the red

 9     markings.  Can we please enlarge it to a little bit more.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Did you put these markings?

12        A.   I suppose so.

13        Q.   Do you agree that it says here "Djure Danicica Street" between

14     the faculty and the Parliament and the Government building?

15        A.   I don't see this inscription anywhere, but if you say so, I have

16     no reason not to believe you.  Oh, yes, I can see it now.

17        Q.   Could you please now draw a line from Unioninvest and red

18     buildings along the middle part of Djure Danicica Street, and please use

19     the blue pen.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please mark on the map the street Franje

22     Rackog Street, number 87.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Thank you.  And can you put a circle around the Executive Council

25     now, and could you put a number there, let's say number 3.

Page 7647

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Parliament, 4?

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Vrbanja Bridge?

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   The Unioninvest building, 6?

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   1 Djure Danicica Street; number 2, Rackog.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Does this map correspond to your statement of 1995?

11        A.   I see that it lacks in precision a bit.  I guess that when I drew

12     that asterisk -- I mean, if I were to draw it now, I would have put it to

13     the left a bit.

14        Q.   And who had made that suggestion to you?

15        A.   How do you get this idea that someone gave a suggestion to me?

16     No one did.  I thought it would be necessary -- I mean, I just wanted to

17     show the place where the incident took place, roughly.  I was not

18     measuring it in metres.  If I were to be doing it now, I would pay

19     attention to every little metre or centimetre, in terms of where I placed

20     the asterisk.

21        Q.   Let me just read this:

22             "I used a red cross to mark on the map the spot where the event

23     happened."

24             So could we have today's date and your initials on this document

25     now.

Page 7648

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  If you continue from that red asterisk, you marked

 4     another asterisk in blue or something like that.  What does it refer to,

 5     Mr. Gicevic, if you remember?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see a blue asterisk.

 7     Ah-hah, that is Marsala Tita Street, where I worked.  And from this white

 8     skyscraper, there was sniper fire.  Then this is the intersection of

 9     these streets.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Can you put a circle now in red or blue - it's one-and-the-same

12     thing - around the building where you worked and the intersection of

13     these two streets, Titova and Vrazova?

14        A.   Now, what number would that be?  7, if I'm not mistaken.

15        Q.   I believe it's 7.

16        A.   [Marks]

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D729, Your Honours.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   What is 8?

22        A.   The intersection, the BH Suma, the Cinemas of Sutjeska near the

23     Hygiene Institute.

24        Q.   Radava?

25        A.   Radava is the next street.

Page 7649

 1        Q.   Can you put a line along Vrazova?

 2        A.   It's right below this asterisk.  As far as I can see, it should

 3     be here [marks].  Yes, it should be 369.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Do we need to place the

 5     date here again, and should it be signed?

 6             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Do we need this?  Very well.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

 9     speaker.  Could all other microphones please be switched off.  Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this been recorded, the circles

11     around Suma and the rest?  Actually, those previous markings, Djure

12     Danicica and Rackog, that previous map with the markings, the previous

13     map with the previous markings?

14             JUDGE KWON:  I think we can safely move on.

15             Shall we keep this one?  Is it necessary?

16             Then can you take a look at the previous one which we just saved.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellent.  If it's been admitted,

18     then it's fine.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's move on.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, how many gun-shots did you hear?

22        A.   I heard two or three sounds.  Now, was it a gun-shot, was it

23     impact on metal or glass or my leg, or was it the sound of a bullet being

24     fired?  I don't know, but I heard two or three sounds.

25        Q.   What was the time that elapsed between them?

Page 7650

 1        A.   It's hundredths of a second.

 2        Q.   Like a burst of gun-fire?

 3        A.   Not like a burst of gun-fire.

 4        Q.   But hundredths of a second, that means it could have been at

 5     least 30 and 1 second [as interpreted]?

 6        A.   All right, then tenths of a second.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you help us with this now:  How far up from the

 8     floor is your wound?

 9        A.   I told you a moment ago; 50 centimetres.

10        Q.   Above the knee?

11        A.   It's right by the knee, itself.

12        Q.   It was a bullet fragment that hit you; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   How did that happen if the bullet had not hit another obstacle

15     before that?

16        A.   You're asking me way too much.  I'm not a doctor or a forensic

17     expert.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 15525, could we have that,

19     please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   And while we're waiting:  Mr. Gicevic, was there any fighting on

22     that day in that area?

23        A.   As far as I know, the two or three days before Bajram, it was

24     peaceful, or relatively peaceful, rather.

25        Q.   While we're waiting for the document:  How many wounded or killed

Page 7651

 1     persons did you transport?  Did you transport the wounded and the killed

 2     of the 101st Brigade?

 3        A.   Only the wounded.

 4        Q.   How many?

 5        A.   Thirty to forty.

 6        Q.   Per day?

 7        A.   No.  The first half year, I carried the wounded, and then for

 8     about a year, I worked as a driver.  So during that period, it was

 9     perhaps 20 or 30 or 60.  I mean, I really can't remember.

10        Q.   So 60 over a period of 360 days?

11        A.   I wasn't always at the front-line.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to draw your attention to the 3rd of

13     March, 1995.  This is a regular combat report to the president of

14     Republika Srpska and the corps commanders.  It's a report sent by the

15     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

16             Could we have page 2.

17             Have a look at what it says, paragraph 4:  "The enemy ...," and

18     then it's the Majevica front -- actually, no, sorry, 3, paragraph 3:

19             "The Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  The enemy opened fire from rifle

20     grenades in the area of Vrbanja bridge ..."

21             And so on and so forth:

22             "They opened fire from PATs, PAMs.  Our forces were unaffected."

23             Do you see that?

24        A.   I do.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 7652

 1             Can this document be admitted?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That's just what I

 4     wanted to say.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI 730, Your Honours.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   How many wounded were there in this tram incident, Mr. Gicevic?

 9        A.   Two or three.

10        Q.   You were wounded in the leg.  Somebody who was sitting was hit in

11     the abdomen; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you give your seat to that person?

14        A.   I cannot remember.

15        Q.   Do you know that a bullet was taken out of that man's abdomen

16     that was 7.62 millimetres?

17        A.   I really don't know.

18        Q.   All right.  You live in Dzidzikovac Street number 8; is that

19     right?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the map, 9390C, and

22     then section 7.

23             This is not 7.  Can we have 7?  This is 5.

24             Yes, this is it.  Can you zoom in on the lower central part.

25     Precisely, over there.  Thank you.

Page 7653

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, can you mark Dzidzikovac Street for us and the place

 3     where your apartment was?

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  So is this Dzidzikovac and Sutjeska merging into one?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And what is the building below number 1?

 8        A.   That is Dom Milicija, the police building.

 9        Q.   Can you put a circle around Dom Milicija and mark it with

10     number 2.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Can you draw a line along Cekalusa, which used to be Nemanjina?

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Thank you very much.  Further on, towards Bolnicka, could you

15     draw a line there and then mark the School of Dentistry, the Secondary

16     School of Dentistry, the University School of Dentistry, and so on.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   So it's the Secondary School of Dentistry, and opposite it is the

19     university building of the School of Dentistry?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you know that there were commands and bunkers there and

22     artillery pieces?

23        A.   I don't know what kind of bunkers you're talking about in the

24     center of town.  Now, whether there was some commands there, that is

25     possible.

Page 7654

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could you just put a little cross there, "X1," where

 2     you were wounded by a shell in Cekalusa?

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, can you explain to us now from which position

 5     somebody could have targeted your apartment using a sniper?

 6        A.   From Grbavica and artillery pieces could have targeted it from

 7     Trebevic.  So this is the direction of artillery fire [marks], and this

 8     is the direction -- I didn't say of sniper fire.  I said rifle fire and

 9     larger calibres as well.

10        Q.   So then could you put number 6 there for artillery fire, as you

11     had put it.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And the one towards Grbavica -- well, how far is it from the Serb

14     positions in Grbavica to your apartment?  How big is the distance?

15        A.   It's a pretty big distance, but don't tell me that a PAM cannot

16     deal with that.

17        Q.   Was your apartment hit with a PAM?

18        A.   It wasn't hit by a PAM, but there is nothing that did not hit it;

19     tank shells, PAMs, PATs, rifle fire.  We had an entire collection of

20     souvenirs that we just threw away.

21        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, you said that your apartment had been hit by sniper

22     fire from Serb positions.  Can you tell us from which Serb positions your

23     apartment was hit, within what range?

24        A.   I said "fire."

25        Q.   Would you please put the date and your initials on this map.

Page 7655

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   While the map is still there, could you please mark

 3     Bjelave Street right there?

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what was in Dom Milicija, the police

 6     building?

 7        A.   Well, it was a police building and there were some police units

 8     there.

 9        Q.   Do you know where the training centre was at Bjelave?

10        A.   I cannot say where the training centre was at Bjelave.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now let me remind you of your statement that you gave

12     on the 21st of April, 2006.  This is what you said:

13             "Apart from shelling, our apartment had been hit 10 or 15 times

14     by sniper fire."

15        A.   When I said "sniper," I meant "ammunition."  I did not say that

16     somebody targeted me while I was standing at the window.  After all, the

17     building is still scarred, so if you come there, you can check for

18     yourself, and you will see that there are hundreds and hundreds of

19     potholes on these buildings that were hit in this way.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll go back to this statement

21     where it says it was sniper fire.  Thank you.

22             So can we have this admitted?

23             JUDGE KWON:  This map marked by the witness will be admitted as

24     Exhibit D731.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7656

 1        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, on this map scale it seems that from Grbavica to

 2     your apartment, there is more two kilometres.

 3        A.   Well, roughly.  Perhaps a bit less.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have something

 5     else now?

 6             You worked in the Forestry building.

 7             Can we now have 1D2542.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can you please mark here the building where you worked, the

10     Institute of Hygiene, the mosque, and the entry point to Vrazova Street?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just hold it a minute.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked on the ground floor of

13     this building.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could you kindly wait until the usher helps you

15     right now.

16             THE WITNESS:  [Marks].  So this is the building where I worked

17     [marks].  This is the Institute of Hygiene.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Number 2, you worked on the ground floor?

20        A.   Yes.  [Marks].  Number 3 is the Hygiene Institute, and then we

21     have the mosque.

22        Q.   We are in a haste because we are pressed for time.  So number 1

23     is the building where you worked, number 2 is the Institute of Hygiene, 3

24     is --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  3 should be the mosque.

Page 7657

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2        Q.   Can you please now mark on the pavement, or even on the road

 3     itself, where the detour into Vrazova Street is?

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   And can you mark the building where we have the sign "Vrazova,"

 6     mark the wall viewed from Titova Street?

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And could you also put the date and your initials.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this admitted

11     into evidence?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit D732.

13             Mr. Karadzic, you will have five minutes to conclude.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that would mean that I

15     wouldn't have been finished, if you don't extend it.  We are trying to be

16     as quick as possible.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the document

18     number?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the number?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D02541.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you recognise this intersection?

23        A.   Yes.  It's the same one that we looked a minute ago, only viewed

24     from a different angle.

25        Q.   On this red building, viewed from Titova Street, can you put

Page 7658

 1     number 1, which you previously marked with number 5?  Now you will get

 2     some assistance.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you draw a line along the Vrazova Street so that

 5     we can know it's Vrazova Street?  Number 2.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Now the central line along Titova Street.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Gicevic, in the background, on the horizon, can you

10     indicate a line that indicates the road via Trebevic [marks].

11        A.   Well, that could be it.

12        Q.   That's right.  Do you agree that the name of this hill is

13     Vranjaca?

14        A.   Yes, above Vranjaca [marks].

15        Q.   Vranjaca is below this line.

16        A.   As far as I know, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know where the separation line was in this

18     location?  Or, more precisely, can you use a red pen and mark it?

19        A.   I cannot find my bearings here.  This resolution is too small and

20     I honestly cannot see.  I know that the VRS was up there [marks] where

21     this line on Zlatiste goes on, but I cannot be more precise as to where

22     the separation line was.  But, anyway, below these pine trees.

23        Q.   Can you now draw a line starting a little below the blue line and

24     the intersection, itself?

25        A.   I don't know what you are talking about.  I never said that shots

Page 7659

 1     came here.  I said that the shots came from the white high-rise building

 2     on Titova Street.

 3        Q.   I'm only asking you to draw a straight line from the separation

 4     line all the way to the intersection.

 5        A.   I don't know which separation line or point you referred to.

 6     Which one would you like?

 7        Q.   In the middle, all the way to the intersection.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   And more to the east?

10        A.   Well, that's what you told me to mark.

11        Q.   Well, then, put another line from the far east.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   That's the middle.  Can you do it from the far eastern part?

14        A.   No, I cannot.

15        Q.   Why not?

16        A.   Because I think these were the VRS positions to the left of the

17     Jewish cemetery, if that is what you are referring to.

18        Q.   Can we see the Jewish cemetery here?

19        A.   As far as I can see, one cannot see it.  If we can enlarge it,

20     but at the moment I cannot see it.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now put the letter S in this photograph above

22     the Serb-controlled territory.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, who controlled the area between the road and Titova

25     Street?

Page 7660

 1        A.   The majority of this territory was under the ABH Army control.

 2        Q.   Could you please put "ABH," and can you put parallel lines to

 3     shade this area from the blue line all the way down there.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   And who controlled the part that you didn't shade?

 6        A.   I don't know because I don't know where the Jewish cemetery is

 7     here.  There is very few things that I can see here in order to be

 8     precise in marking.

 9        Q.   Could you please put the date and your initials on this picture.

10        A.   [Marks].

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we please tender it into

12     evidence?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I will allow you just one last

14     question.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be tendered into evidence,

16     and then can I have 1D02543.

17             And for the record, I would like to say that this is a shame that

18     this witness could not have been properly examined and that the Defence

19     believe that everything related to this witness should be discarded,

20     because everything was done to the detriment of the Defence case.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Unhelpful statement.

22             This was -- it will be admitted as D733.

23             And your last item?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, can we have 1D02543.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7661

 1        Q.   Is this the side of the building viewed from Titova Street that

 2     you marked?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   Can you see these two pockmarks on the facade?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Are there bullet traces?

 7        A.   I cannot say.  Really, I cannot.

 8        Q.   Can you circle them in this photograph.

 9        A.   How do you know this was not caused by shells?

10             JUDGE KWON:  If you can see them, what's the point of asking the

11     witness to mark them?  It's obvious.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

13        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, if these are rifle bullet traces, where did they

14     come from?

15        A.   I'm not saying at all that these were rifle bullet traces.  This

16     could have been caused by shells as well.  And you're asking me about

17     something that I never said.  I said that fire came along

18     Marsala Tita Street from the white high-rising building on Grbavica.

19        Q.   Is it possible that this could have come from Grbavica?

20        A.   No, never.

21        Q.   So this is viewed from your building and the building of the

22     Hygiene Institute?

23        A.   I could see this wall from my window.

24        Q.   Can you please put the date and your initials.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Unnecessary.  We'll admit this as Exhibit D734.

Page 7662

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now it would be necessary to

 2     establish whether there was a visibility between this intersection and

 3     Grbavica and the distance, but I don't have time for that.

 4             THE WITNESS:  If you give me a proper picture, I will show to you

 5     that there was a line of sight between this place and the white building.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just let me consult --

 7             THE ACCUSED:  We have the photograph.  We only need time.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  That was said by the

 9     accused.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Conclude in 10 minutes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Can we now have 1D02544.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Is that the same intersection?

16        A.   Yes, and you can see the tops of the white high-rise buildings on

17     the right and then everything will be clear to you.

18        Q.   Can you see the Assembly building?

19        A.   Yes, I can.

20        Q.   And where did these incidents happen?

21        A.   This is exactly where they happened.  I was even present when

22     UNPROFOR fired --

23        Q.   Over the building of the Assembly?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, do you agree that between this white high-rise

Page 7663

 1     building and the incident location, there were enough places where BH

 2     Army was deployed?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted into

 5     evidence?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D735, Your Honours.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   How did it come about that in official documents of the

10     investigators of BH MUP, it is written that you were wounded in the lower

11     leg?

12        A.   I really don't know the details.  I think that you should ask the

13     person who compiled this report.  I don't know.

14        Q.   Do you have any explanation whatsoever for so many discrepancies

15     and differences in the statements that you gave as well as between your

16     statements and those provided by the police?

17        A.   I don't know where these discrepancies are.  I answered your

18     questions to the best of my knowledge, but the consequences of shelling

19     and bullets are felt both on my body and in my soul.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D02534.  Thank

21     you.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, can you tell us, please, what do you see in this

24     photograph?

25        A.   I see the intersection leading to Vrbanja Bridge.  I see the

Page 7664

 1     Assembly building.  I see Zlatiste and the area around the

 2     Jewish cemetery.

 3        Q.   Can you mark all these locations that you enumerated?  What is

 4     behind these boards?  Is that the old tobacco factory?

 5        A.   Yes, this is where the old tobacco factory is situated.

 6        Q.   Now, can you put an arrow or a number 1 where the old tobacco

 7     factory is.

 8        A.   [Marks] This is the old tobacco factory.

 9        Q.   Can you now mark the Assembly building.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in the background can you mark these locations

12     on the hill?  What is on the very peak of the hill?

13        A.   Zlatiste [marks].

14        Q.   Who controlled Zlatiste, the town and the fortress?

15        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska.

16        Q.   Can you see it in the photograph?

17        A.   Well, you cannot, but more or less it is situated here in this

18     forest.  I can't see it exactly.

19        Q.   Who controlled all these houses in the entire area between the

20     forest and the intersection?

21        A.   The line would approximately run like this.

22        Q.   So in respect of that, where is the Jewish cemetery?

23        A.   I don't know whether it's to the left or to the right.  I don't

24     know.  One centimetre either side.  I can't see it clearly [marks].

25        Q.   Let me help you, Mr. Gicevic.  Is it true that neither to the

Page 7665

 1     left, nor to the right, there was no area controlled by the Serbs?

 2        A.   It's not correct.  They controlled everything to the right.

 3        Q.   Can you draw the separation line?

 4        A.   This is approximately the separation line.

 5        Q.   In this photograph, where is the location that you marked back in

 6     1995?

 7        A.   I don't know which place you're referring to, but at any rate, I

 8     can't see it in this photograph.  If you can provide a more precise

 9     resolution or if we move to the right, then I can do so.

10        Q.   What's the name of the street that leads to Vrbanja Bridge?  Is

11     that Vladimir Cosica Street?

12        A.   No, I can't remember.  It's a very short street and there's only

13     the Assembly building on it.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gicevic, could you tell us what number 4 refers

15     to?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  It's the street that

17     comes out to the Vrbanja Bridge.  It's the place where the UNPROFOR

18     containers were, two of them, there were five or six.  And it's

19     impossible that the tram was hit, if this is what Mr. Karadzic

20     insinuates, because there were two or three containers, one on top of the

21     other here, at least five to six metres tall, and the entire intersection

22     was closed off by these containers.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Could you now mark with 5 where the tram stopped after the

25     incident.

Page 7666

 1        A.   The tram stopped in front of this vehicle or a bit more, about 10

 2     metres or so in this direction [marks].

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please write the date and put your initials.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I believe that the

 6     additional time which I was given has been spent now.

 7             Can we please have this admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D736, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, do you have any re-examination?

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour, but very briefly.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Please.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have 65 ter 10129 on the

14     screen.  And as it is coming up:  It is the statement from the 21st of

15     April, 2006, that was discussed during the cross-examination, and I would

16     like to have page 2.  Yes.

17                           Re-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

18        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, you have spoken during the cross-examination about

19     various statements that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1995,

20     and here this from 1996.  I would like to refer you to paragraph 3.

21             Did you, in fact, make corrections when you gave this statement

22     in 1996, referring to that you made in the previous statement?

23        A.   Yes, these were the changes about the locations where the tram

24     stopped, because in the English version, when I read it several years

25     later in the Bosnian language, I could see that there was something

Page 7667

 1     illogical in the English version of the statement; namely, that I was

 2     standing on the left side of the tram.

 3        Q.   Did you also make a correction in relation to whether you used a

 4     taxi or not?

 5        A.   Yes, I also said that as well, that my memory about that is not

 6     clear and that I believed that I walked all the way to the

 7     State Hospital.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And my last question:  You have marked on some maps

 9     also today, and I just wanted to confirm with you, when the tram was hit,

10     was that before the bend or curve that you mentioned, in the street, or

11     after?

12        A.   I assert that the tram was hit before the S-curve, and I know

13     this because, due to fear and because the tram changed the direction

14     quickly, we all fell down, and the tram went on very fast all the way to

15     the place which I marked; that is to say, the old tobacco factory.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.  These are my

17     questions.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I ask just one question, Your

19     Honours?  My learned friend Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff said that a change was

20     made, but it was not changed in 2006, not the location of the incident

21     and the star which marks where the tram was hit.  The map has not been

22     corrected.

23                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Is that correct, Mr. Gicevic?  Item 3 and the entire statement

Page 7668

 1     from 2006 do not make any issue about your map from 1995?

 2        A.   I don't know what you are talking about.  You have to understand

 3     that the victim at the moment when he or she is hit is not looking around

 4     and recording and does not have such a power in his head to determine,

 5     with half a metre precision, where the incident happened exactly.  You

 6     have to understand in such panic that one has to see how to save one's

 7     head, rather than try to act as a film star, as if the whole incident was

 8     filmed.

 9        Q.   Mr. Gicevic, you said here that --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's obvious from his statement.  You

11     can make a submission in relation to that.

12             That concludes your evidence, Mr. Gicevic, and I thank you for

13     coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal.  You may leave, and I wish

14     you have a safe journey back home.  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE KWON:  I was advised that the next witness, who is

18     protected, albeit in a limited nature, needs some time to accommodate the

19     courtroom because he has a face distortion, and I was told that the staff

20     needs some 10 minutes to prepare for him.  So we'll have an adjournment

21     for 10 minutes.

22                           --- Break taken at 11.46 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 11.57 a.m.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE KWON:  With hindsight, we could have taken a longer break.

Page 7669

 1     But we'll have a short break in the middle.

 2             Yes.  If the witness could take the solemn declaration.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  MIRZA SABLJICA

 6                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 8             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Gaynor:

10        Q.   Witness, could you state your full name, please.

11        A.   My name is Mirza Sabljica.

12        Q.   You've previously testified before this Tribunal in the trials of

13     Stanislav Galic, Dragomir Milosevic and Momcilo Perisic; is that right?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   And you've previously given statements to representatives of the

16     Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

17        A.   Yes, I did give statements to the OTP.

18        Q.   On the 10th and 11th of February of this year, you reviewed an

19     amalgamated statement which consolidated relevant parts of your earlier

20     evidence; is that right?

21        A.   Yes, precisely.

22        Q.   And you had an opportunity to review that statement again when

23     you were here in The Hague about 10 days ago; is that right?

24        A.   That's also correct.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I have 65 ter 22248, please.

Page 7670

 1        Q.   On the screen in front of you, do you see the first page of your

 2     amalgamated statement?

 3        A.   I do.

 4        Q.   And would you provide the same answers if you were asked, under

 5     oath, about those topics today?

 6        A.   Yes, of course.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, I'd now seek the admission of the

 8     amalgamated statement and the exhibits referred to in the statement,

 9     which are listed on the final two pages of the statement.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we would ask that the amalgamated

12     statement be redacted to exclude two unscheduled incidents, one on

13     page 54, a shelling incident at Kosevsko Brdo on the 8th of November,

14     1994, and the other on page 63, sniping of a moving car on the 9th of

15     November, 1994.  We've dealt with these issues in the past, but we

16     continue to believe that the probative value of including unscheduled

17     incidents is outweighed by the prejudicial effect, particularly the time

18     that would be required and resources for us to have to investigate and

19     present evidence to rebut those incidents.  And we also believe that the

20     expenditure of time by the Trial Chamber, given the constraints that it

21     puts on Dr. Karadzic's cross-examination, it would be unwise in admitting

22     these scheduled incidents -- unscheduled incidents.  And, finally, it has

23     been our argument that to allow the Prosecution to adduce evidence of

24     unscheduled incidents circumvents Rule 73 bis (D) in which you limited

25     the Prosecution and ordered them to reduce the scheduled incidents in the

Page 7671

 1     indictment.

 2             Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Mr. President.

 5             As Mr. Robinson acknowledges, Your Honours have already ruled on

 6     this issue in respect of the amalgamated statement of Ekrem Suljevic, and

 7     essentially Mr. Robinson is asking you to address a matter which has been

 8     ruled upon.  As we submitted in that instance, the unscheduled incidents

 9     are relevant to the questions of the widespread and systematic nature of

10     the attack against the civilian population, and they are also relevant to

11     the allegations of a campaign of shelling and sniping.  The scheduled

12     incidents are merely illustrative examples of that campaign.

13             And to clarify the record, these incidents were not -- that

14     Mr. Robinson has referred to were not struck from the indictment in

15     accordance with Your Honour's order under Rule 73 bis.  They were, in

16     fact, unscheduled to begin with.  They were not listed in the schedules

17     in the first place.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the Chamber ruled upon this issue, I just

19     simply reiterate it, although they are not germane to the charges charged

20     in the indictment, but they are relevant to the pattern or the nature of

21     the campaign.  So on that basis, we do not accept your request,

22     Mr. Robinson.

23             But let me take a look at the exhibit you referred to.  Bear with

24     me a minute.

25             Can I take it you refer to the list of exhibits to be tendered as

Page 7672

 1     a part of the associated exhibit?

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, these are all exhibits which form an integral

 3     part of his evidence and which are listed on the last two pages of his

 4     statement.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  My understanding is a lot of items were not

 6     up-loaded when the Chamber staff checked with e-court.  Are they

 7     up-loaded, all the maps and those things?

 8             Separate from that, you have no objection to the admission of

 9     those exhibits, Mr. Robinson?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President, apart from those

11     that deal with unscheduled incidents.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  We'll double-check that they've all been properly

13     up-loaded.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Can I raise -- draw your attention to the exhibit,

15     the Rule 65 ter number of which bears the number 20897 --

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  -- which is a CSB investigation file.  The report

18     was mentioned during the witness's testimony in a prior case, but the

19     witness was told that he may use that report if he needs to refresh his

20     memory.  However, in the amalgamated statement, he never indicated that

21     such an occasion arose, and, therefore, I'm not sure whether it forms a

22     kind of associated exhibit.  So, if necessary, I would like you to go

23     through that document.  And in the course of the previous witness,

24     there's an investigation report that was deferred to this witness's

25     evidence.

Page 7673

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So with that exception -- with the exception of that

 3     20897, all the other items will be admitted.  And the numbers of those

 4     items will be given in due course by the Court Deputy and circulated.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll give the number for his statement now.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P1695, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             I now propose to read a summary of the evidence for the benefit

11     of the public.

12             Mr. Mirza Sabljica served as a forensic ballistics analyst with

13     the Security Services Centre, or CSB, in Sarajevo from July 1993.  He

14     participated in ballistic investigations of shelling and sniping

15     incidents in Sarajevo.  In his statement, he describes the methodology

16     used when investigating incidents, including the method of determining

17     the calibre of the projectile, the direction of fire, and the angle of

18     descent at the point of impact.  He also discusses documentary evidence

19     prepared by his team and others relating to a number of different

20     shelling and sniping incidents, including the shelling of a football game

21     in Dobrinja on the 1st of June, 1993, the shelling of a civilian location

22     where a group of children were playing in the snow on 22nd January 1994,

23     the shelling of a residential area in Dobrinja on the 4th of February,

24     1994, and the shelling of the Markale Market on the 5th of February,

25     1994.

Page 7674

 1             In respect of the Markale Market incident, Mr. Sabljica describes

 2     the work done upon his arrival at the scene of the shelling after the

 3     shelling had taken place, including the measurement of the shell crater

 4     and the inspection of the traces on the ground.  He concluded, on the

 5     basis of his measurements, that the projectile had come from a

 6     north-north-eastern direction at a bearing of approximately 18 degrees.

 7             In respect of the shelling of the children playing in the snow on

 8     the 22nd of January, 1994, Mr. Sabljica's statement refers to his report

 9     of the incident, in which he concluded that the projectiles had been

10     fired from positions in Nedzarici, an area which was under Bosnian Serb

11     control.

12             Mr. Sabljica participated in approximately 60 investigations into

13     incidents of sniping.  At least a dozen of those concerned the sniping of

14     trams.  In his statement, he describes the methodology of a sniping

15     investigation.

16             Among the sniping incidents he discusses are a sniping attack on

17     the tram of 23rd of November, 1994, and a sniping attack on the tram on

18     the 5th of February, 1994.  He states that the origin of sniper fire was

19     often the Metalka building and other high-rise buildings in Grbavica, an

20     area under Bosnian Serb control.

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Sabljica, I propose to deal, first of all, with certain

22     sniping incidents, the sniping part of your statement.

23             First of all, this is at pages 60 and 61 of Mr. Sabljica's

24     statement.  There's no need for you to refer to it yourself,

25     Mr. Sabljica.

Page 7675

 1             In 1996, you said that after the reintegration of Grbavica, you

 2     went to visit four high-rise buildings where, on the higher parts of the

 3     buildings, you found five or six apartments which had been redesigned to

 4     serve as sniper nests.  Do you recall that evidence?

 5        A.   Yes, I do recall.

 6        Q.   And could you briefly describe the nature of the apartments?  How

 7     did you conclude that they were sniper nests?

 8        A.   Based on the order of the chief of the relevant department and an

 9     investigative judge, after the reintegration of Grbavica, we examined

10     certain facilities on the left bank of the Miljacka River from which we

11     suspected fire was opened against civilian buildings and trams during the

12     war in Sarajevo.  We made a tour of high-rise buildings in

13     Lenjinova Street, which is now Grbavicka Street.  These are four

14     buildings which are 18 floors' tall, each of them, and we managed to

15     locate five or six apartments in these buildings which were redesigned

16     for a specific purpose, to be used as sniper nests, as you call them.  I

17     must say that, until then, I had never seen anything like that.  But

18     thanks to two of my older colleagues who were then with

19     me - unfortunately, they are no longer alive - Mr. Medjedovic and

20     Mr. Stankov, I managed to get a fuller picture of that.

21             Let me explain how these apartments looked.  All the walls in the

22     apartments had been cut in a specific way, or holes had been bored in

23     them so that the outer wall of the apartment, which overlooks the right

24     bank of the Miljacka River, had the smallest opening, and in the next

25     room the opening was bigger, and in the third room it was the biggest

Page 7676

 1     opening, where in certain apartments we even found sand sacks and also

 2     parapets on which those who were firing against targets on the right bank

 3     of the river would lean.  So that's it.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now a request a map which is -- an aerial

 5     photograph, in fact, which is 90193.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   When this document comes up, I'd like you to mark the four

 8     18-storey buildings that you just referred to where you found those

 9     apartments.

10        A.   I will mark them now [marks].  It's these four buildings.

11        Q.   Could you put a "1" next to that, please.

12        A.   [Marks]  Number 1.

13        Q.   In your statement, you also refer to - this is pages 62 and 63 -

14     a visit to the Metalka building.  Could you mark the Metalka building

15     with a "2," please.

16        A.   This is the Metalka building, number 2 [marks].

17        Q.   In your statement, you say that you did not find the same kind of

18     sniper shelters there that you had seen in the four high-rise buildings.

19     Do you recall that?

20        A.   Yes, I recall that.  In Metalka, we did not find something like

21     what we found in the four high-rises in Lenjinova Street.

22        Q.   In the Metalka building, did you find anything to suggest that

23     that building had been used as a location for sniper fire -- from which

24     sniper fire could take place?

25        A.   One of the apartments, I think, on the eighth floor, because the

Page 7677

 1     building has eight floors, we found something that was a sort of

 2     improvised snipers' nest with an opening on one of the walls, and we also

 3     found some empty shells, automatic weapon empty shells.  They were inside

 4     the apartment.

 5        Q.   Could you mark on the map the location of the Holiday Inn and

 6     place a "3" next to that.

 7        A.   The Holiday Inn Hotel, here it is [marks].

 8        Q.   Are you aware of the location of an S-curve in the tram tracks in

 9     that vicinity?

10        A.   Yes, it's here [indicates].  Should I mark it?

11        Q.   Yes, please.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Now, in your investigation of sniping incidents of trams,

14     specifically, could you give the Court an idea of how many investigations

15     you participated in or with which you are familiar?

16        A.   Well, we conducted 10 or 12 investigations focusing on trams

17     which were targeted, of which 6 are documented by our findings, because

18     there were victims in these 6, those who were injured or wounded.  And it

19     was possible to bring back those cars to the approximate position where

20     they had been hit.  And in the other six, it was just a criminal and

21     forensic investigation and there was not sufficient evidence in order to

22     make ballistic reports and analyses, so that we did not even write down

23     such reports.

24        Q.   Could you mark on the map the zone in which those sniping

25     incidents took place; the sniping of trams, specifically.

Page 7678

 1        A.   All along this street, Vojvoda Putnik Street or Smaja od Bosne

 2     Street.  But let me mark it [marks], but one intersection close to the

 3     Social Security building cannot be seen here from Bratstvo-Jedinstvo all

 4     the way to Skenderija.  This was the dangerous zone, the so-called Sniper

 5     Alley, along which it was very risky to move for civilians, vehicles, and

 6     anyone else.

 7        Q.   And did all of the tram incidents which you investigated take

 8     place within that zone that you've marked?

 9        A.   All incidents that had to do with trams occurred in the area

10     between the intersection where the Social Security building is to the

11     intersection of Franje Rackog Street and Vojvoda Putnik Street.  There,

12     approximately where the S-curve is situated, that was the most dangerous

13     zone for trams.  And in the other part of the street, it was more

14     pedestrians, civilians, who were walking along and who were hit.

15        Q.   Can I ask you to mark specifically the beginning and the end of

16     the zone in which the trams were shot at.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Could you mark the figure 4 at the beginning of the zone and the

19     figure 5 at the end of the zone, please.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Now, if you could just sign and date that, please.  And I would

22     ask that that be admitted.

23             THE WITNESS:  Should I sign the document?

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, please.

25             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

Page 7679

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  I would request that that marked up-version of

 2     that --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be the next Prosecution exhibit.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P1724.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  I would now request that 65 ter 07048A be brought

 6     up, please.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Could we have the number again?

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  07 --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, the exhibit number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P1724.

11             JUDGE KWON:  24?

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  1724, yes.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Now, if we could focus on the top left of the map,

15     please.

16        Q.   If you can read that part of the map, could you tell us what that

17     says?  If you could just read that out in your own language,

18     Mr. Suljevic -- sorry, Mr. Sabljica.

19        A.   "Working Map of the Chief, Command of the 12th dKoV," beginning

20     0700 hours, 15th of March, 1995, and 700 hours, 31st of May, 1996.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we now zoom in on central Sarajevo, please.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Sabljica, are you able to locate the Holiday Inn on this

23     map?

24        A.   I'll try.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Perhaps we can move the map a little to the right,

Page 7680

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  If necessary, we can zoom in further.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could move further to the right, please.  In

 4     fact, we could zoom in a little more, please.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Here [indicates].

 6             MR. GAYNOR:

 7        Q.   If you could just mark it with an H for the Holiday Inn.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Now, underneath the Holiday Inn, do you see the pattern of the

10     tram tracks?

11        A.   Yes, I can see that.

12        Q.   Could you mark the location of the S-curve there, just with S.

13        A.   Here it is [marks].

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. Sabljica.  If you could sign that.

15             I would ask that that be admitted, please.

16             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

17             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1725, Your Honours.

19             MR. GAYNOR:

20        Q.   Mr. Sabljica, you've lived in Sarajevo your whole life; is that

21     right?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct, I'm a native of Sarajevo and I still live

23     there.

24        Q.   You're familiar with the location of that S-curve from your

25     investigations and from your residency in Sarajevo?

Page 7681

 1        A.   Of course.  It has not been moved during the last 30 years.

 2     I think in the early 1980s the tram tracks were reconstructed and

 3     rebuilt, and I think that at that time the S-curve was built there,

 4     roughly sometime before the Winter Olympic Games.  And since then, it has

 5     not been moved.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to show you D654, please.

 7        Q.   If we could take this map, and this time, Mr. Sabljica, if you

 8     could inspect the location of the tram lines in the vicinity of the

 9     Holiday Inn.  Are you able to see that?

10        A.   Yes, I can see that.

11        Q.   Is this map an accurate depiction of the tram lines of Sarajevo

12     during the period 1992 to 1995?

13        A.   No.  As you can see in this map, the tram tracks go along the

14     Borisa Kidrica Boulevard.  I remember that it was the time when the

15     Washington trams were going through Sarajevo, so this map probably dates

16     from the time before the reconstruction, before the Olympic Games, and

17     this tram line did not exist between 1992 and 1995.  The tram tracks had

18     already been reconstructed and were looking as they still look today.

19        Q.   Just for clarity, if you could circle the boulevard to which

20     you've just referred.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Is there any indication on this map of an S-curve in front of the

23     Holiday Inn?

24        A.   Here, at the intersection of Trscanska and Titova.  It was also

25     quite a long time ago, before the reconstruction of the tramways in the

Page 7682

 1     early 1980s.

 2        Q.   I would request you to sign that, please, Mr. Sabljica.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  I request that be admitted, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1726, Your Honours.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  For the record, that was the map used by

 8     Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination of Witness Patrick van der Weijden,

 9     and the origin of the map is the Government of the United States,

10     Department of Defence of the United States.

11        Q.   Now, I'm going to show you two investigation files, Mr. Sabljica.

12             Could I call up 10439, please.

13             The investigation file which is coming up now, Your Honours,

14     deals with incident F16 on the 3rd of March, 1995, which includes the

15     sniping of Alen Gicevic.

16             Do you see the table of contents, as it were, on the right-hand

17     side of the screen in front of you, Mr. Sabljica?

18        A.   Yes, I can see that.

19        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review this dossier of documents

20     earlier today?

21        A.   Yes, while I was waiting in the witness room.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we move to the seventh page in English, which

23     is the fifth page in B/C/S.

24             Could we move to the next page in B/C/S, please.

25        Q.   On the document in front of you, in approximately the middle of

Page 7683

 1     the page, it contains your name, Mr. Sabljica; is that correct?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   You were a participant in this sniping investigation; is that

 4     right?

 5        A.   Yes, that's right.

 6        Q.   Are you in a position to confirm that the documents which you

 7     inspected relating -- that this dossier of documents is an authentic set

 8     of documents?

 9        A.   Yes, it is a whole.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could move to the next page in English and the

11     next page in B/C/S.  We may need to enlarge the English somewhat.

12        Q.   There's a reference here.  I'll read it out, Mr. Sabljica.  It

13     says:

14             "Members of the Anti-Sniper team of the UNPROFOR French Battalion

15     returned fire.  One French soldier was wounded in the head in the

16     exchange of fire."

17             That's the end of the extract.

18             Were you asked to specifically investigate the injury suffered by

19     the French UNPROFOR soldier after the French returned fire?

20        A.   On the basis of an order of an investigative judge - I think it

21     was Mr. Mico Potparic, who was head of the team - after we examined the

22     tram in accordance with the instructions issued by the judge, we tried to

23     investigate this wounding incident of the member of the French Battalion.

24     However, his command did not agree, so we did not do that.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  I would request that the -- that this dossier of

Page 7684

 1     documents be admitted into evidence, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1727, Your Honours.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  I want to take you now, Mr. Sabljica, to another

 5     incident.

 6             I'd like to call up D681, please.  This is an UNPROFOR memorandum

 7     dated the 27th of October, 1994, addressed to General Rose.  The subject

 8     header states:  "Sector Sarajevo brief, 26th to 27th October 1994."

 9             If we could move to the second page of the document.

10             At the top of the document, Mr. Sabljica, you understand enough

11     English to see the words:

12             "1735 hours, 25 Oct., tram shot area Bratsva Br and reported

13     eight injured"?

14             Do you see that, Mr. Sabljica?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, a few lines further down, we see the words:

17             "All evidence and corroboration by Bosnian officials indicate

18     shots came from Bosnian-held territory."

19             Do you see that?

20        A.   Yes, I see that.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  I want to ask you a couple of questions about that,

22     and I would like to call up 10512A, please.

23        Q.   The document in front of you is issued by the Republic of Bosnia

24     and Herzegovina, Ministry of the Interior, Security Services Centre,

25     Sarajevo.  It's dated the 27th of October, 1994, and it refers, in the

Page 7685

 1     first paragraph, to an incident at 1735 hours on the 25th of October,

 2     1994, when a tram came under small-arms fire in the vicinity of the

 3     Pofalici tram stop.

 4             Mr. Sabljica, you're referred to as the sixth participant in this

 5     investigation on this page.  Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes, I do see that.  Yes, it is me under number 6.

 7        Q.   You had an opportunity to review this document earlier today; is

 8     that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could move to the next page of this document.

11        Q.   We see a reference, in the English version, to -- the sentence

12     reads:

13             "In the background of this street runs the Miljacka River, across

14     which in Grbavica PZT there is a three-storey building 120 metres away

15     from the site of the incident.  At a certain distance behind it, there is

16     a skyscraper."

17             And if we move to the next page in English, please.

18             We see a reference in the fourth paragraph to the conclusions of

19     the team, and again there's a reference to:

20             "... the direction corresponds to the location of the

21     three-storey building, immediately next to the Miljacka River and the

22     Grbavica PZT."

23             Having reviewed this document earlier today, could you explain

24     what the conclusions of your team were in respect of the origin of fire

25     in this incident?

Page 7686

 1        A.   Of course.  As for this tram, since it had moved from the place

 2     where it had been hit, the driver was panic-stricken, so he moved the

 3     tram.  However, in order to carry out a proper investigation, we tried to

 4     have the vehicle moved back to approximately the same spot where it had

 5     been hit.  After our examination, we established that the possible site

 6     from which the tram could have been hit was that green building that was

 7     on the left bank of the Miljacka in the Street of Obala [indiscernible].

 8     However, from the place where we had placed the tram, we came to the

 9     conclusion that there was no optical visibility between the marksman and

10     the tram due to the treetops that acted as an obstacle.  At the

11     suggestion of the driver, we established that the tram was supposed to

12     move a few metres ahead, and then in that case, the building would have

13     again been in this suspicious zone.  In that case, there would have been

14     visibility and contact from that point of view.  At any rate, that bank

15     of the Miljacka River was under VRS control throughout.

16        Q.   Is there anything in this document to suggest that you concluded

17     that the tram had been fired upon by Bosnian Government forces?

18        A.   Nothing.  Nothing gave rise to that suspicion.  All indicia

19     showed that this had come from the left bank, that is to say, the area

20     under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to move on three pages, please, to a

22     related document.  This is dated 2nd of November, 1994, and it's a record

23     of an on-site reconstruction of the incident we've just been looking at

24     and another sniping incident.

25             If we look at the third paragraph, there is a reference to the

Page 7687

 1     incident which took place at approximately 1730 hours on the 25th of

 2     October, 1994, which concerns tram number 277.

 3        Q.   Now, this document was prepared by you and Mr. Zlatko Medjedovic;

 4     is that correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   Towards the end of this document, we see a reference to "the

 7     green building."  Could you explain what your analysis was with respect

 8     to the green building and the incident concerning tram 277?

 9        A.   That's the building that I talked about a few moments ago.  That

10     is to say, this report included the reconstruction of both trams, both

11     277 and 217.  So we had already explained the previous one.  We explained

12     that there was no visual contact, as it were, when the tram was put in

13     the original position where it was after -- or, rather, before the

14     reaction of the driver.  Aleksandar Vuzina was his name.  And then when

15     the tram was moved a few metres, then again it became possible to suspect

16     that that is where the fire had come from that wounded those persons.

17             As for the tram, we established it in a simpler way; on the basis

18     of the traces that were there and seeing the possible site from which it

19     could have come from.  It was one of the skyscrapers in Lenjinova Street.

20        Q.   The second part of your answer there concerned the second tram;

21     is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, yes, I mean the second tram.  Lest there be any confusion,

23     we dealt with both trams on the same day.  This reconstruction took place

24     upon instructions from the judge.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I see the next page in the B/C/S, please.

Page 7688

 1        Q.   Can you confirm that is your signature at the foot of the page?

 2        A.   Yes, it's my signature and that of the late Zlatko.

 3        Q.   And is there anything in this document prepared by you to suggest

 4     that fire came from Bosnian Government positions?

 5        A.   Nothing, nothing that would lead to that conclusion that it came

 6     from the Bosnian Government positions.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just for planning purposes, Mr. Gaynor, how much

 8     longer would you need for your redirect -- I'm sorry, your

 9     examination-in-chief?

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Just 25 minutes, I estimate, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  That being the case, we will have a short break for

12     20 minutes now, and then we'll resume at three past 1.00.  And then, with

13     the kind indulgence of the interpreters and the other staff, we decided

14     to go until 2.00 this afternoon, if it is agreeable to the parties.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Very much so.  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Twenty minutes.

17                           --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor, please continue.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             Before we go on, I'd like to seek the admission of the document

22     the witness was dealing with just before the break.  It was 65 ter 10512.

23             JUDGE KWON:  A?

24             MR. GAYNOR:  A, correct, thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 7689

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1728, Your Honours.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

 3             Now I'd like to request document 20897.  This was the document

 4     Your Honours wished us to put to the witness.  I'd like to show the first

 5     page, first of all.

 6        Q.   Mr. Sabljica, the document in front of you is an investigative

 7     dossier of documents relating to an incident which took place on the 27th

 8     of February, 1995, at 12.15.

 9             And if we could go to the sixth page in B/C/S, which is the tenth

10     page in English, I believe.  It might be the 11th page in English.

11             In any event, Mr. Sabljica, do you see your name under number 6

12     there on that document?

13        A.   Yes, I can see it clearly.

14        Q.   Now, this document -- according to this document:

15             "At 12.45 on the 27th of February, 1995, the centre was informed

16     by the duty operations officer that fire-arms had been used in

17     Zmaja od Bosne Street and several bullets were fired from enemy territory

18     on the tram en route from the city to Pofalici, and several persons were

19     wounded."

20             Towards -- later on, on the page that you're looking at, there is

21     again a reference to:

22             "The tram was fired on by the aggressor's soldiers ..."

23             Do you recall participating in this investigation, Mr. Sabljica?

24        A.   Yes, I remember.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could go to page 12 of the English, which is

Page 7690

 1     page 9 of the B/C/S, please.

 2        Q.   At the top of the page in front of you -- the correct English

 3     translation will be coming up.

 4             The top of the page in front of you refers to sniper fire from

 5     Lenjinova Street in Grbavica, and it says that the bullets were fired

 6     from the fourth high-rise building in that street.  Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 8        Q.   Now, I'd like to go to a document which you, yourself, authored,

 9     and that's on page 22 in English, page 18 in B/C/S, please.

10             If you see the document in front of you now, could you just

11     briefly --

12        A.   Yes.  It's the ballistics report which the late Medjedovic and

13     myself drew up.

14        Q.   While the translation is coming, I'll read out the relevant part

15     of your document.  At the end of the document which you signed on behalf

16     of Mr. Medjedovic, Mr. Sabljica, you said:

17             "The possible location from which the bullets had been fired at

18     the tram, garage number 257, could not be determined because it was

19     impossible to return the tram to the exact location where it was hit, as

20     stated by the driver, Sabina Secovic, because the tram broke down as a

21     result of the bullets fired at it."

22             That's at the end of the document, so if we could move one page

23     further on in English and B/C/S.  And on the next page in B/C/S, please.

24             Now, first of all, could you confirm that's your signature on

25     that page?

Page 7691

 1        A.   Yes, I can confirm that it is mine.

 2        Q.   You were signing on behalf of Mr. Medjedovic; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   Could you explain to the Court how the conclusion of the

 5     investigation, in general, was that fire had come from the high-rise

 6     building in Lenjinova Street, whereas the ballistic part of the

 7     investigation concluded that it was not possible to determine exactly

 8     where fire had come from because the fire could not -- because the tram

 9     could not be returned to the exact location?  Could you explain your

10     methodology in instances where you couldn't return the tram to the exact

11     location where the fire had taken place?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I just intervene so it would

13     be easier to follow this?

14             These documents are not on the list, so I cannot follow this.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  This document is referred to in the amalgamated

16     statement of the witness.  This document was.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need the document.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, I don't follow.  Is this not one of the

19     documents that was offered as an associated exhibit?

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, that's right, this is the exact dossier of

21     documents that Your Honours wished us to put to the witness.

22             JUDGE KWON:  The 65 ter number of which is 20897?

23             MR. GAYNOR:  That's correct, Mr. President.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the latest-to-last, the ERN

25     number I have is 361, so now we have to find our way around.  361 and

Page 7692

 1     then onwards, 0331-6361, that's the ERN number.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I hope Mr. Sladojevic can sort it out.

 3             Yes, let's move on, Mr. Gaynor.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   As I was saying, can you explain to the Court what the

 6     methodology was in a sniper investigation where you couldn't return the

 7     tram to the location where it had reportedly been struck by fire?

 8        A.   First, to clarify a difference between these two reports, I will

 9     stand by what I signed here for Mr. Medjedovic.  And why Mr. Kucanin, I

10     believe, and Miokovic signed the report, which says that it was hit from

11     the fourth high-rise, but you have to ask them if you ever call them to

12     testify.  And the methods that we used were always one and the same, the

13     methods that we used when we registered damage caused by sniper shots on

14     trams and other vehicles that were moving.  We could go back exactly to

15     the spot where the tram was hit -- rather, we couldn't do that, but we

16     made a reconstruction.  We could determine the type and kind of damage.

17     We could also see the angles and the direction of movement of the bullets

18     from up, downwards, and from the left to the right.  So we did not want

19     to say exactly what was the position from which it was fired, but from

20     the report one could see it was obvious that it had come from the south

21     side.  And judging by the side of the tram that was hit, the Grbavica

22     settlement was on that side.  And I wouldn't discuss the fourth high-rise

23     building because I never even mentioned it in my report.

24        Q.   Could you explain the total number of sources of information in a

25     given investigation which might allow a conclusion to be drawn as to the

Page 7693

 1     origin of fire?

 2        A.   Once [Realtime transcript read in error "unless"] the on-site

 3     investigation team comes at the scene, at the order of an investigative

 4     judge, then each member begins to do his work.  The ballistics - that's

 5     us in this case - with the help of forensic technicians, by using our

 6     usual methods, will do our part of the work, and the operative

 7     inspectors, such as Mr. Kucanin and Mr. Miokovic, would take the

 8     statements of witnesses and use other sources of information from the

 9     scene which are available in order to draw up their own report.

10             It happened that certain reports would not be consistent for

11     reasons unknown to me, because the gentleman from the Crime Operations

12     Sector would not wait for the final ballistics report and would draw

13     conclusions on the basis of their own findings and observations.  In

14     general, everyone would have to be using one-and-the-same source of

15     information which you can find at the scene of the incident.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  I just want to correct the English transcript, just

17     in case it doesn't get corrected later.  The first word the witness said

18     was "Once the on-site investigation team comes," rather than "Unless."

19        Q.   In any event, Mr. Sabljica, was your ballistic determination the

20     sole source of information which the whole investigation would have to

21     determine origin of fire?

22        A.   I don't know about that, but it should have been the case.

23        Q.   Very well.  Let me just put it to you this way:  In the file

24     which relates to this incident, and in other files, there were reports

25     given by all of the participants in the investigation; is that right?

Page 7694

 1        A.   The task of a criminal investigation inspector is to list all the

 2     names present in the introductory part of his report, which means all the

 3     names of team members.  However, his report doesn't refer to ballistic

 4     aspects and it doesn't contain my name, so this report is signed by him,

 5     personally.  And as a rule, in order for it to be complete, it should

 6     contain a ballistic report as well.  In this instance, as you can see,

 7     and I can freely say that Mr. Kucanin and the other gentleman reached the

 8     conclusions of their own.  I don't know on what basis, because such

 9     indications were never mentioned in our ballistic report.  We even stated

10     the reasons for us not being able to determine that.  I don't know why

11     they wrote it as they did and why the investigating judge accepted their

12     report as reliable.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  The dossier contains all the relevant documents in

14     respect of the incident.  I'd request that the Trial Chamber admit the

15     entire dossier and afford it the weight that it considers appropriate.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Unless it is objected to, we will admit it.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1729, Your Honours.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. Sabljica, I'd now like to move away from sniping

19     to shelling, and I'd like to bring up a video, 65 ter 40125H.

20             Before we start the video:

21        Q.   In your statement, Mr. Sabljica, from page 30 onwards, you

22     describe your participation in the shelling of the Markale market-place

23     on the 5th of February, 1994.  Do you recall that?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Participate in investigation of the shelling?

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 7695

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  I was a member of the

 2     team who carried out the on-site investigation.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:

 4        Q.   Very briefly, could you summarise your role in that

 5     investigation?

 6        A.   I was part of the ballistic team, led by the late Cavcic, and

 7     Asim Kanlic, the investigating judge, led the entire team.  Our task was

 8     to determine the direction and the type of the projectile.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to play the first segment, which is

10     40125H.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. GAYNOR:

13        Q.   Could you describe, in general terms, what we saw in that

14     portion.

15        A.   Well, one can see part of the Markale market-place, the stalls,

16     blood-stains, pieces of tissues, scattered fruits, pieces of clothing,

17     some crates or boxes, a lot of blood on the asphalt surface.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get the date when this video

19     was shot and who shot it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the Chamber to decide

22     who's going to answer.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I'll leave it to Mr. Gaynor.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.  The date of this portion says "5.2.1994."  On

25     the screen, itself, the source is AID in Sarajevo.

Page 7696

 1             JUDGE KWON:  But, Witness, are you aware of that fact; AID took

 2     this film on the 5th of February?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about AID, but I know

 4     that, on our team, Zlatan Sadikovic from the CSB was there, and he filmed

 5     the scene as well during the investigation.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  I should clarify my response earlier.

 7             The immediate source of this video to the Office of the

 8     Prosecutor was AID.  On page 31 of the witness's amalgamated statement,

 9     he states -- he's asked the question:

10             "While you were at the scene of the market, did one of the police

11     officers present video-record the market-place?"

12             The answer is:

13             "Yes, that was Mr. Zlatan Sadikovic that did this.  He was a

14     member of the investigation team."

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd request that that clip be admitted, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  When you tendered all the associated exhibits, was

18     included this one --

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  -- but in your list, it says just one clip, but I

21     take it there are three clips of this?

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Well --

23             JUDGE KWON:  So you are going to divide it into pieces?

24             MR. GAYNOR:  It might be easiest if Your Honours admit the entire

25     video.  It's quite lengthy, so I didn't have time to play that.  I was

Page 7697

 1     just going to play three portions of it.  But it would be our preference

 2     to --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  How long would it be?

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  I'm just getting that information right now.

 5             Thirty-four minutes in length.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think I heard that.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  It's 34 minutes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thirty-four minutes.  But how can we identify this

 9     portion from that 34 minutes?

10             MR. GAYNOR:  It has its own 65 ter number, so it could be

11     admitted -- we've previously admitted three extracts from this video with

12     Witness Higgs, Richard Higgs.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, and why do we do this?  Unless it is objected

14     to, we'll admit this video in its entirety.  That would be helpful.  It's

15     better for us to have an entire video.  And I would ask the Prosecution

16     to identify the proper minutes of each clips you are going to play today.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, we are not sure that this

18     was shot on the 5th of January [as interpreted].  One can't see that on

19     this still photo.

20             JUDGE KWON:  That's a matter for you to cross-examine on.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  5th of February.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Could that be done, Mr. Gaynor?

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit this in its entirety.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

Page 7698

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Later on, you can identify --

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  -- the time clips of those videos that are going to

 4     be played.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  I can actually to it as we go along.  The first clip

 6     we just played was from 00.20 to 00.58, so that's 20 seconds to 58

 7     seconds.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to play the second clip, please, which is

10     from 06.45 to 07.20.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could pause there, please.  We're pausing at 7

13     minutes and 1 second.

14        Q.   Mr. Sabljica, if you could describe what's on the screen in front

15     of you.

16        A.   You can see an illustration of the method that we used to apply

17     when investigating the origin of fire of the shelling.  You align the

18     poles and the central axis, as we used to call it.  Because the asphalt

19     was rather wet and full of traces of blood and tissue residue, we were

20     not able to use chalk in order to connect the poles and the center and

21     for drawing up the central axis, so we used these three sticks, depicting

22     the angles and pointing to the direction from which the shell had come.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get the date of this video?

24             JUDGE KWON:  If you have still questions -- it's a subject you

25     need to pursue later on.  The witness confirmed that this was filmed the

Page 7699

 1     5th of February, and on that basis we can go on.

 2             This is a part of the same video, I take it, Mr. Gaynor.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  That's correct.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, if I may say

 6     something briefly.

 7             I already have a very short time for cross-examination.  Through

 8     the previous witness, we heard that the French confirmed that these

 9     traces were chipped, that the place of inspect was tampered with by

10     chipping.  Why don't we have the date here?  I can't cover everything in

11     my cross-examination, and I think this is an appropriate moment for me to

12     ask about the missing date.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I find your intervention this time sort of

14     obstructive.  It's for you to further cross-examine the witness.

15             Let's continue, Mr. Gaynor.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17             If we could play that clip to the end, please.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Now I'd like to play the third clip, which is from 8

20     minutes and 50 seconds to 9 minutes and 23 seconds.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. GAYNOR:

23        Q.   Could you describe what we were looking at in that portion of the

24     video?

25        A.   What we are seeing right now, body parts and the head?

Page 7700

 1        Q.   Yes.  Now, just the portion of that video until the image arrived

 2     on your screen.

 3        A.   When the FrenchBat team arrived from UNPROFOR, a French soldier

 4     or an officer - I don't remember exactly - used an army knife in an

 5     attempt to extract the part of the shell that was stuck at the place of

 6     impact.  And the crime scene officer, Sead Besic, was the one standing

 7     next to him.  And you could also see that the stabiliser was found in the

 8     center of the crater, which means that the French soldier managed to mark

 9     it with his knife.

10        Q.   Did you carry out measurements as to how far the stabiliser had

11     penetrated into the ground?

12        A.   As far as I can remember, it was nine centimetres with relation

13     to the surface on the asphalt.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to request 65 ter 09620, which is a

15     photograph.  If we could go to page 12 of that, please.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we switch to e-court from Sanction.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could go on another page, please.  Sorry,

18     sorry, we can hold it there.

19        Q.   What is that that is in front of you at this point, Mr. Sabljica?

20        A.   We see the shell stabiliser to the center of the crater.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we go to the next page, please.

22        Q.   Could you identify what that is?

23        A.   The stabiliser of a 120-millimetre mortar shell.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  And if we could have the next page, please.

25        Q.   Could you describe what that is?

Page 7701

 1        A.   The same as in the previous photo, only viewed from a different

 2     angle.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  And if we could go to the first page of this

 4     document, please.

 5        Q.   This refers -- this is a file of photo documentation of the

 6     Markale incident of the 5th of February, 1994; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  And the photo documentation was compiled by crime-scene

 8     officer Sead Besic.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well.  I have no further questions,

10     Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Karadzic, we have about 20 minutes' time today, so why don't

13     you start your cross-examination.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Sabljica.

18        A.   Good afternoon.

19        Q.   Please, let's pause between questions and answers so that we can

20     make it possible for the interpreters to do their job.

21             First of all, let me thank you for meeting with my associates.  I

22     hope that would facilitate this cross-examination.  And I would also like

23     to tell you, in advance, that I'm not disputing anything on a personal

24     basis.  I'm only disputing facts.  Therefore, rest assured that my

25     intention is not to display anything but respect for your person.

Page 7702

 1        A.   Thank you for that.

 2        Q.   Today, my learned friend Prosecutor Gaynor described you as a

 3     forensic and ballistic analyst.  Let me tell you why I noticed that,

 4     specifically.  And the reason is because, in these reports, you have been

 5     characterised or described only as a ballistic expert.  Is there any

 6     difference?

 7        A.   Well, I'll correct this in order to make it simple.  The exact

 8     name of the title of the job that I had was an expert for mechanical

 9     traces and ballistics.  The ballistics section for analysing traces was

10     part of the forensic laboratory of the CSB Sarajevo and the MUP of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12        Q.   Thank you.  So does either of these two qualify you for providing

13     independent forensic findings for the use in courts?

14        A.   Yes, because the minister of the interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina

15     at the time issued certificates to us that we, as active-duty police

16     officers, could prepare documents that could be used in court proceedings

17     at a later stage.

18        Q.   Well, don't you find it to be more appropriately done by a proper

19     institution, not to be done by the minister?

20        A.   Well, that is your conclusion, and that is what was done at the

21     time.

22        Q.   When you talked to representatives of the Defence team, you said

23     that you served as an infantry signalman; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, it is, if you're referring to the Yugoslav People's Army.

25        Q.   During your regular military service, did you undergo any

Page 7703

 1     training in shooting?  And tell me from which weapons.

 2        A.   Only from infantry weapons, like M-72, submachine-gun, light

 3     machine-gun, automatic rifle; that is to say, the weapons that the

 4     signals platoon had within infantry.

 5        Q.   After that, you underwent a communications course?

 6        A.   Yes.  That's how the JNA operate.  The rest of my military

 7     service I spent in training on communications equipment.

 8        Q.   How long does this firing training last?

 9        A.   The total initial training started -- lasted 30 days, and the

10     shooting training lasted for about 15 days.  But I must say that later I

11     received some broader training, but again in the domain of infantry

12     weapons.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that you remained as part of the

14     reserve forces of the JNA?

15        A.   Yes, until the break-up of the former Yugoslavia.

16        Q.   Did you have a rank?

17        A.   A corporal.

18        Q.   Were you regularly summoned to take part in exercises?

19        A.   Between 1985, when I finished my service, and the break-out --

20     the outbreak of war, two times.

21        Q.   On page 2, you said that approximately for 13 months, you were a

22     member of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  Initially, I was a member of the BH Territorial Defence,

24     and then from July 1992, when the Army of BH was formed, I became a

25     member.

Page 7704

 1        Q.   In which unit did you serve?

 2        A.   That was Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Territorial Defence, named after our

 3     local commune, and after that it was the 1st Motorised Brigade, and I

 4     served as a private.

 5        Q.   Do you mean to say that your local commune, Bratstvo-Jedinstvo,

 6     had its own territorial defence unit even in peace time?

 7        A.   Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly whether it had, but

 8     it probably did.

 9        Q.   Did this Territorial Defence unit have its own weapons?

10        A.   Unfortunately, only a few weapons were there, rifles, hunting

11     rifles, and a few semi-automatic rifles.

12        Q.   Where was the 1st Motorised Brigade deployed?  Where was its zone

13     of responsibility?  And please wait for the interpretation to finish.  I

14     believe you can answer now.

15        A.   The area of responsibility was the line on the Miljacka River,

16     from the Vrbanja Bridge via Hrasno Brdo, that area.  We were deployed on

17     the line from the Economics School to the Elektroprivreda building, and

18     then we were transferred to Hrasno Brdo.

19        Q.   Thank you.  So from Vrbanja Bridge down to Elektroprivreda and so

20     on, between you and the Serbs, the Serb Army, that is, there was only the

21     Miljacka River, right?

22        A.   Yes.  Between us and the units of the army of Republika Srpska,

23     there was only the Miljacka River on that line.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Then in July 1993, you went to the MUP; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7705

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Your first job at the MUP was the first job you had

 2     after you got your degree in mechanical engineering within the stream for

 3     production, as it were?

 4        A.   Yes, that was my first job after I basically graduated in October

 5     1991.

 6        Q.   The plan was for you to get a job in Unioninvest, but the war

 7     made that impossible; right?

 8        A.   Yes.  Unfortunately, yes.  That is what I told your colleagues

 9     when I met up with them.

10        Q.   Is it correct that the Unioninvest building is near Vrbanja

11     Bridge?

12        A.   Yes.  Before the war, that was the Unioninvest building, but now

13     it's the Office of the High Representative.

14        Q.   Under whose control was that building during the war?  In whose

15     territory was it?

16        A.   That building was under the control of the Army of

17     Republika Srpska.

18        Q.   Are you sure?

19        A.   100 per cent.

20        Q.   What about those red buildings in the neighbourhood; were they

21     under the BH Army or the Army of Republika Srpska?

22        A.   I think that the BH Army held positions above the Energopetrol

23     gasoline station, whereas this part of Kovacici was under the control of

24     the Army of Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   You will see later on whether that was actually the case.

Page 7706

 1     However, tell us, while you were at university, was there a subject that

 2     trained people in ballistics professionally?

 3        A.   There wasn't a subject by that name, exactly, but there was a

 4     stream that trained engineers that could later work in specific

 5     industries.

 6        Q.   However, you did not study that particular stream; right?

 7        A.   No, no, no.  I did a general course in mechanical engineering;

 8     production, that is.

 9        Q.   At university, you did not take any courses in defence

10     technology; right?

11        A.   That's right, I did not have that subject while I was at

12     university.

13        Q.   With your permission, I would like us to review what we heard

14     today during the cross-examination -- or, rather, the

15     examination-in-chief.  Let us try to clarify a few matters.

16             You said, on page 69 -- or, rather, do we agree that the war

17     ended in Sarajevo sometime towards the end of October, by a cease-fire,

18     and then on the 21st of November, by the Dayton Peace Agreement?

19        A.   We can agree on that.

20        Q.   Do you recall when Grbavica was re-integrated, as you put it,

21     when we handed Grbavica over to you?

22        A.   I think it was the end of February or beginning of March 1996.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You said here that in these skyscrapers, one of the

24     four, you found something that would correspond to sniper nests; right?

25        A.   That's right.

Page 7707

 1        Q.   Can you now assist us with this so that we would be as specific

 2     as possible?  On which floors were these apartments in which you

 3     discovered that?

 4        A.   We toured all four buildings.  Of course, we didn't see each and

 5     every apartment.  All the nests that we found were above the 10th floor.

 6        Q.   And the openings that you described, which direction did they

 7     face?

 8        A.   They faced the Street of Vojvoda Putnika or, rather, the

 9     Smaja od Bosne, the entire segment on the right bank of the Miljacka.

10        Q.   So that was the northern wall of these buildings?

11        A.   If you're looking from the direction of Grbavica, then it's the

12     north.

13        Q.   Well, any direction.

14        A.   Well, no.

15        Q.   Where were these buildings?  They face the river, don't they?

16     The broader side faced the south and the other one faced the north;

17     right?  The north and south are something that we cannot bargain about;

18     right?

19        A.   All the openings faced the north when viewed from that apartment;

20     that is to say, from the direction of Grbavica towards the other bank of

21     the Miljacka River.

22        Q.   Thank you.  So there were different openings; a small one, a

23     bigger one, and at a third level there was the biggest one of all, and

24     there were sandbags.  Can you tell us, what does that look like, the

25     small opening and the medium-sized opening?  How big are they, and how

Page 7708

 1     high up were they?

 2        A.   Later on, I realised that that was called a tunnel.  I found that

 3     particular terminology, and I was actually asked about that during one of

 4     my testimonies.  The Defence asked me whether I had heard of that

 5     expression.  The smallest opening was on the wall that is the external

 6     wall of the building, facing towards the north, towards the river, that

 7     is, and it was 20 by 20, roughly.

 8        Q.   Sorry.  How high up was it in relation to the floor?

 9        A.   I think between 80 and 100 centimetres, as far as I can remember;

10     from the floor of that particular apartment, that is.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12        A.   Well, in the room next-door, there was an opening in the wall

13     that was 40 by 40 or 50 by 50, roughly, again the external wall.  And

14     then if you look at the third room, because they operate from in depth,

15     the opening is 80 by 80, and that's where the sandbags were and the

16     parapets, if I can put it that way.  So if you're looking at things from

17     the point of view of the shooter, it looks like a tunnel.

18        Q.   How far away were these sandbags from that opening?

19        A.   They were right by the opening, itself.  There wasn't a

20     particular distance.  I cannot remember.  I didn't even measure it or

21     anything like that.  However, I think that they were right by the wall

22     and the opening.

23        Q.   Thank you.  So there's an 80 centimetres, and then the next one?

24        A.   The first one is 20 by 20, and the other one is 40 by 40, and

25     then the third one is 80 by 80.

Page 7709

 1        Q.   From the floor, the first one is at 80 centimetres?  I mean the

 2     distance from the floor.

 3        A.   Well, it goes down, doesn't it?  If it was 1.1 metres, then you

 4     have to take away the 40 centimetres.  And then over there you have the

 5     other 40 centimetres.  So then the shooter has his rifle at a parallel

 6     level; right?

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Was that dealt with -- I mean the crime scene, was it

 8     dealt with properly?  Were photographs taken, et cetera?

 9        A.   I'm sure, but I never saw this.  I asked why not, but I never

10     received any information in this regard.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You also said that at Metalka, in an apartment, there

12     were empty casings found from automatic weapons ammunition.

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   Was this photographed?

15        A.   Yes, likewise, because, as I said, the entire team was there,

16     headed by the investigating judge.  There was also a crime scene officer

17     and a member of the Security of Novo Sarajevo-Grbavica because that is

18     the area that it belonged to.

19        Q.   Do you -- do we have these photographs?

20        A.   I have not seen them, just like the previous ones that I haven't

21     seen.

22        Q.   Were these empty casings dealt with properly?  We could have

23     found some imprints there; right?

24        A.   Of course they could have been found.  I don't know about that

25     particular information, that is to say, whether there was a

Page 7710

 1     finger-printing analysis that was carried out.

 2        Q.   Do you agree that your army and ours did not have weaponry that

 3     could have been used as snipers with this kind of automatic ammunition?

 4     That kind of thing does exist in the world.  However, in the Balkans, in

 5     the JNA, there was no such thing; right?

 6        A.   Ammunition of a 7.9-millimetre calibre is used by an M-76.

 7        Q.   However, you said that the casings came from ammunition for

 8     automatic weapons, so what exists in that respect in our parts?

 9        A.   An M-74 machine-gun.

10        Q.   What calibre is that?

11        A.   7.62.

12        Q.   Thank you.  No one has any casing of all of those, not even as a

13     souvenir?

14        A.   Well, I don't.  Perhaps we can ask around in the Ministry of

15     Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, are we done for

17     the day?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say something before the

20     adjournment, just a few words.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The importance of this witness,

23     both as an eye-witness and as a participant and as an investigator, is

24     enormous.  The distinguished Mr. Gaynor tried to deal with a great many

25     facts with this witness, and my estimate of 20 hours is a conservative

Page 7711

 1     one, a modest one, therefore, if we also take into account the incidents

 2     that are not in my indictment.  However, in order for the plot to

 3     thicken, I think that I would need even 30 hours.  So could the

 4     Trial Chamber please take that into account.

 5             One of the major problems would be time restrictions in these

 6     proceedings that are otherwise evolving very nicely.  So I always have to

 7     indicate when I did not examine a witness properly, and that can cast a

 8     shadow on the proceedings in total.  But I am doing my best to deal with

 9     things as best I can.

10             JUDGE KWON:  We'll consider it.

11             We'll be sitting in the morning, tomorrow morning; is it correct?

12     Yes, 9.00.

13             But before that, in a very general term, Mr. Tieger, whether you

14     have any submission to make in relation to the witness who was supposed

15     to appear after this witness.

16             MR. TIEGER:  I'm not aware that we've been apprised of additional

17     information since we were last informed, and at that point -- well, I'm

18     concerned about providing anything too fulsome and strained beyond the

19     bounds of this point.

20             May I suggest that we -- I don't have anything at this time, and

21     may I suggest that we provide the Court with an answer, either in open or

22     private session, at the first opportunity.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             We are now rising.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 7712

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day of

 3                           October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.